Sharp Rise Seen in Chinese Patents

ianare writes "According to a report by the UN's intellectual property agency, the number of requests for patents in China grew by 33% in 2005 compared with the previous year. That gives it the world's third highest number behind Japan and the United States, the agency said. China's leaders have been urging companies to become more creative, and put more of their money into developing new technology. 'Made by China' rather than simply 'Made in China' will mean that the country's economic miracle stands a far better chance of lasting longer."

Comments

The Old Switcharoo.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be surprised if in a decade, US companies are cloning Chinese products, likely using some sort of "free market" rationale.

Creativity == Patent?

[biocute]

So filing and (maybe) getting patents granted equals creativity?

I think we have seen enough "Creative Patenting" that are comparable to "Creative Accounting".

Re:Creativity == Patent?

[Opportunist]

I cannot agree. Creative accounting at least requires some thinking and finding loopholes in the sys.... ok, you're right.

Re:Creativity == Patent?

[4105]

Please keep in mind that these patents are actually cheap knock offs of other peoples patents. (but they cost less, and contain lead, and might have ground up melamine etc.)

Number is not an issue.

[zzztkf]

The number of patents is not an issue. Contents of patents is.
No matter how many patents are recoginzed. It's another issue whether they can influence the world by them.

Re:Number is not an issue.

[Loke the Dog]

The thing with inventions is that its very hard to know beforehand if it will be profitable or not.

Basically, all professionals who work creatively, be it inventors, artists or advertising people, work with quantity rather than quality. When they have enough quantity, they begin sorting it out for the quality.

My point is that if the quantity increases by 30%, the quality might not increase by as much, but it would be strange if it did not increase at all, because quantity is the foundation for quality. Without quantity, its almost impossible to get quality.

Everyone in the West...

[h4rm0ny]

...can relax now - because that's China's super economic growth taken care of.

Re:Everyone in the West...

[Maxo-Texas]

and next they discover the wonders of "general liability", "class action lawsuits" and then they begin their decline as an empire.

Re:Everyone in the West...

[SageMusings]

...Which they will reject out-of-hand. Remember, they play by THEIR rules.

Like my father always said...

[psychicsword]

Quality not Quantity

And the Swiss?

[lixee]

Where do Switzerland fall in all this? I thought they were 3rd.

chinese patents are increasing

[zmollusc]

to settle bets on whether patents are just a crazy foreign legend.
'No way, man. Someone is just messing with you!'
'I swear it is true, you just find something that isn't yet patented, like breathing or clicking on a triangle instead of a box, then get a patent on that, then sue everybody'
'Bullcrap!'
'Ok, I will patent something myself. That will show you.'

Sucks to be western.

[miffo.swe]

I think the US had big hopes for selling IP to china. After having outsource pretty much anything that can be outsourced war and IP is pretty much all there is to export from USA. If China leaps ahead of US sience and production its going to be the west who stands there with their pants down and hat in hand. All this because of extreem shortsighted greed that made everyone outsource their factories instead of making them more effective. It would have been much better in the long run to have sold complete products to china instead.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[Eighty7]

That's exactly it. Due to the large amounts of cheap labor, China's entrance into trade/production acted just like rapid technological progress or a massive supply shock. Nations replaced higher-cost suppliers with lower-cost ones just as they would have if production technology advanced at home. Frankly companies didn't really have much of a choice.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[rtb61]

Not only did China get ahead with cheap labour but also with poor working conditions, no pollution restrictions, minimum or no safety/ health conditions and corruption to grease the wheels of profit for those autocrats running the corporofascist society.

One reason for the shift to IP instead of production could quite simply be because China is currently quite busily polluting itself to death. As the level of toxic elements rises in the environment it will be interesting to see what future chemical chain reactions will occur and how high the death toll will rise.

Meanwhile those who reaped the profits while destroying their country will be seeking means by which to bail with their wealth intact and seek to secure future means of income.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[DNS-and-BIND]

You have no !@#%ing idea what you're talking about. Corporofascist? Whose ass did that come out of? I live in China, and I'm chummy with a lot of bigshot local government types, and nothing is like you describe.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[Creepy Crawler]

Even if the crazy "corporofascist neocon bastards bla bla" poster has no idea about Chinese government, China is one of the most polluted countries in the world.

The pollution has to do with how China implemented globalization. They forsake the environment in order to catch up with the rest of the major powers. I guess they're leveraging the land in that tech will fix it later.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[Weedlekin]

"Not only did China get ahead with cheap labour but also with poor working conditions, no pollution restrictions, minimum or no safety/ health conditions and corruption to grease the wheels of profit for those autocrats running the corporofascist society."

China is currently undergoing an industrial revolution, and is actually treating its workers a lot better than Britain did during its industrial revolution, and massively better than Russians during their much later industrial revolution. It looks pretty bad compared to the US and Western Europe today, but people tend to forget that squalid living conditions, non-existent worker rights, dreadful industrial safety, and massive pollution were usual in both Europe and the US only 80 years ago, which means that there are living people who remember a time when a working week was six twelve hour days, and professional gangs of strike breakers beat people to death for trying to get better, safer working conditions and a wage that didn't oblige an entire urban families to live in a single room without its own bath or toilet facilities.

"One reason for the shift to IP instead of production could quite simply be because China is currently quite busily polluting itself to death. As the level of toxic elements rises in the environment it will be interesting to see what future chemical chain reactions will occur and how high the death toll will rise."

Just like other industrialised nations polluted themselves to death until fairly recently. The Great London Smog of 1952 killed 12,000 people, and a mountain of waterlogged mining waste slid onto the town of Aberfan in 1968, killing 144. In the US, LA smog in 1943 reduced visibility to three blocks and people had smarting eyes, respiratory difficulties and vomiting; a 1948 smog containing fluoride emissions from steel mills killed 20 and injured hundreds (many of whom died a short time later) in Donora, Pennsylvania; while a New York smog killed up to 270 people in 1953. We've polluted our rivers and water supplies, polluted the lakes, seas, and oceans, polluted the air, and the ground, in some cases for hundreds of years, so trying to present the Chinese as bad guys because we started cleaning our act up a few decades ago (but still haven't done so as much as we like to think) is utter hypocrisy.

"Meanwhile those who reaped the profits while destroying their country will be seeking means by which to bail with their wealth intact and seek to secure future means of income."

Because nobody in "the West" ever got rich by exploiting both people and the environment with no regard for the welfare of anyone or anything besides themselves. And Western countries haven't operated patently unsafe and incredibly environmentally hostile facilities in countries with cheap labour and lax worker protection laws such as the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal, India, that leaked methyl isocyanate, killing 3800, and permanently disabling thousands of others. We of course wouldn't dream of exporting millions of tons of our own toxic waste to other countries to comply with our own environmental laws, use them to recycle our most toxic products, sell banned pharmaceuticals and contaminated baby formula to them, operate sweat-shops to make consumer goods, or buy sugar from companies that use slave labour. Only the nasty, greedy Chinese would do horrible things like that, because as we all know, Western industry has always been operated by socially responsible people who put people and the planet before crass profit.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[rtb61]

Wise man say, those that pursue the politics of fifty years ago are either historians or idiots. My only concern is what is happening today and what will be happening tomorrow, history is just lessons, that people should not repeat, you kinda missed that whole not repeating history bit didn't you.

You kind of idiot logic means it is ok to keep repeating the same mistakes, the same abuses, the same lies over and over and over again.

Why don't reach further back into history and cite Roman slavery at brick factories, I hear China repeated that example just in the last year, hey that's ok after all the ancient Romans did it too.

When it comes to autocracies why would I blame the 'Chinese People' for the corruption of their government, corrupt greedy politicians are readily available all over the world, as are the greedy corporations that feed them, save the racism for yourself, I dislike all of them regardless of what nationality, citizenship, race, colour etc., as for China, let's have a democracy and really see what the 'Chinese People' actually think, rather than just a few corrupt politicians.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[Weedlekin]

"Wise man say, those that pursue the politics of fifty years ago are either historians or idiots."

Wise men don't call others idiots without having some excellent points to refute their arguments with instead of childish excuses for the fact that the Chinese have done far less damage transitioning over a billion people from an agrarian economy to an industrial one than we did in the same period merely sustaining our far smaller population. I suggest you actually check up on what Western industries have been doing, and in many cases still are doing since China started to industrialise in the late 1970s.

"My only concern is what is happening today and what will be happening tomorrow, history is just lessons, that people should not repeat, you kinda missed that whole not repeating history bit didn't you."

It's you that's missed the fact that the US and EU are _still_ polluting far more than China is with half their population. If we can't learn from our own history, then why should the Chinese be expected to do so?

"You kind of idiot logic means it is ok to keep repeating the same mistakes, the same abuses, the same lies over and over and over again."

My kind of logic holds China to the same standard as the rest of us. In case you hadn't noticed, the US generates more pollution than they do with 1/4 their population, so I suggest that you take the advice of a truly wise man, and avoid throwing stones while living inside a glass house.

"Why don't reach further back into history and cite Roman slavery at brick factories, I hear China repeated that example just in the last year, hey that's ok after all the ancient Romans did it too."

We don't need to go anything like as far back as the Romans, because the US and Europe are using slave and forced labour domestically, and their corporations are making big profits from foreign industries that use slaves:

http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/news/CMA%20agr ee%20161001.htm
http://www.injusticeline.com/slave2.html
http://soc.enotes.com/slavery-today-article/slaver y-united-states-serious-problem
http://www.iabolish.org/slavery_today/country_repo rts/do.html

There are plenty of other examples that somebody with enough brain cells to do a little research could find. So once again, we have you, the hypocrite, holding the Chinese up to a standard that your own country doesn't meet. And before you pipe up with some pathetically childish point about slavery being illegal in the Western world, it's also illegal in China, hence the fact that they arrested those responsible for using slaves in the _illegal_ brick kilns you were blathering about.

"as for China, let's have a democracy and really see what the 'Chinese People' actually think, rather than just a few corrupt politicians."

Because democracies have never been governed by a few corrupt politicians.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[rtb61]

That's great, give them a hard time, they deserve it but how about doing better rather than worse. For what earthly reason would I feel guilty about the behaviour of others when I am trying to seek improvement and greater democracy and freedoms and the rights of individuals. I feel absolutely free to critique any political leader from any country, I especially loathe self serving autocrats (I'll give you a hint, no matter how bad democratic leaders have been, the corrupt autocrats were far far worse, even the Chinese ones).

What I think you miss is the whole nature of the current Chinese government and it's threat to freedom, democracy and workers rights in the rest of the world and what needs to be done about them to reduce that threat (whilst I have some concern for Chinese workers, my greater concern is for workers rights with in my own country and not only protecting those rights and condition but improving upon them). So, as it turns out not all that much, as long as China continues on it's current course, the pollution they are generating will solve our (workers in democratic countries who want to preserve their rights, fuck so many cents per hour and living in worker/slave dormitories) problems, a bit unfortunate for the countries surrounding China but that's just the way it is.

Although I still do support fair trade tariffs, where taxes are loaded onto imported products to cover the cost differences of minimum wage (valid due to global pricing of commodity products), worker safety and conditions, environmental protections, quality inspections, taxation levels (avoiding tax holiday cheating corporations), there is no reason that companies should be forced to compete upon an unequal basis, especially when they support their consumers by providing the local employment rather than pursuing every last cent of profit regardless of the socio economic consequences.

Now of course the big question is, whether Olympic officials will supply the EPA inspections teams to ensure the health and safety of athletes, not only at the events, but at their accommodation and travelling to their events as well as the food consumed, It would be harsh to put Olympic sized corporate profits ahead of athletes health.

Re:Sucks to be western.

[Weedlekin]

"That's great, give them a hard time, they deserve it but how about doing better rather than worse."

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not defending China, but simply pointing out the hypocrisy of concentrating on their flaws while ignoring our own, both in the present and the recent past.

"I feel absolutely free to critique any political leader from any country, I especially loathe self serving autocrats (I'll give you a hint, no matter how bad democratic leaders have been, the corrupt autocrats were far far worse, even the Chinese ones)."

I agree, but I was actually referring to the entire democratic apparatus in various countries rather than simply the leaders, who come and go even in dictatorships. It's true to say that corruption is usually more obvious in non-democracies, but this doesn't necessarily mean that it's more prevalent than is the case in a country like the US, where getting elected is so expensive that one either has to be very rich, or heavily sponsored by special interests to stand a chance of reaching congress or the senate, let alone forming part of a government. Rich people tend to have have existing ties to various special interests (e.g. the Bush family and big oil, or Cheney's connection to Halliburton), while those who require sponsorship end up indebted to other special interests who helped finance their campaigns. Just because corruption is less obvious doesn't mean it's less endemic, less insidious, or less destructive to ordinary people, whose interests are often diametrically opposed to what the politicians (and increasingly the courts) end up doing.

"What I think you miss is the whole nature of the current Chinese government and it's threat to freedom, democracy and workers rights in the rest of the world and what needs to be done about them to reduce that threat"

Most of the rest of the world has even less in the way of _real_ freedom and workers' rights than China, and unlike many other countries, the situation is improving over there. Don't make the mistake of assuming that 10% of the planet's population which lives in Europe and the US is in any way representative of how the other 90% lives, that the populations of those "Western" countries weren't fighting to establish and maintain those rights until fairly recently, or that the Chinese are anything like the primary threat to them, as well as other rights we used to take for granted (terrorist bogey men, "think of the children" types, and globalisation of Western industries are already doing an excellent job of rights erosion without any help whatsoever from China).

"So, as it turns out not all that much, as long as China continues on it's current course, the pollution they are generating will solve our (workers in democratic countries who want to preserve their rights, fuck so many cents per hour and living in worker/slave dormitories) problems, a bit unfortunate for the countries surrounding China but that's just the way it is."

I think you're severely underestimating the amount of pollution that would be necessary to have any notable impact on the manufacturing capability of a country whose population has reached 1.3 billion, and is still growing. You're also assuming that the Chinese won't clean their act up long before things get to that stage, despite the fact that they've already demonstrated their ability to make drastic changes to societally entrenched ways of living and working in very short periods of time.

"Although I still do support fair trade tariffs, where taxes are loaded onto imported products to cover the cost differences of minimum wage (valid due to global pricing of commodity products), worker safety and conditions, environmental protections, quality inspections, taxation levels (avoiding tax holiday cheating corporations), there is no reason that companies should be forced to compete upon an unequal basis, especially when they support their consumers by providing the local employment rather than pursuing every last cent of profit regardless of the socio economic

Now maybe they will start to respect IP Law

[bomanbot]

Well, if China begins to invest massively in their own research and thus begins filiing patents and such, at some point they will really have to enforce some sort of IP Law to protect their own innovations and interests.

Up until now, for all those cheap chinese knock-offs and blatant copies of other companies work, disregarding IP Law in China was actually useful, but with own patents and ideas, I would guess that chinese companies will be enforcing IP Law more strictly in the future because now disregarding IP Law will actually harm them.

And yes IP Law can be useful, even if Patent Law is completely stupid and borderline dangerous at the moment. Because laws and rules of handling intellectual property can also encompass things like the GPL or the Creative Commons Licenses and I think it could be useful if such things can be enforced in China more strictly in the future.

Re:Now maybe they will start to respect IP Law

[Znork]

"And yes IP Law can be useful"

Monopoly law is always useful for those holding the monopolies. They can get revenue without having to produce a competetive product or service to obtain that revenue.

China realizes this as well as the rest of the WIPO crowd; once you've built up your fortune, the free market will keep chipping away at it unless you either remain competetive or prevent competition. As remaining competetive is hard work, it's much easier to simply create monopoly vehicles to invest in.

I doubt it's a coincidence that it happens as the yuan appreciates and the dollar approaches free-fall. Once the economic equilibrium is restored, China can double-whammy the US with intellectual monopolies to keep any wealth reflux from happening.

Ah, well, they've learned from the best, so it's no big surprise they've gotten a taste for screwing others over.

Re:I wonder if...

[ArsenneLupin]

You forgot the lethal toothpaste...

We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

[PopeRatzo]

What does it say about free-market capitalism that we so fear that China will become like US?

Or am I the only one who worries about another patent-grabbing, carbon-swilling, profit-hungry, consumer-driven super-economy on the planet, this one with a billion jean-wearing, Starbucks-guzzling, Wal-Mart-shopping para-Americans?

You can bet that the Western Paul Wolfowitz, IMF-types are trying to figure out a way to put that genie back in the bottle. After all, they may say that global warming is a myth or "not affected by human activity" but that's only for public consumption. When they're sitting around their Emperor of Earth Gentleman's Club, you best believe they know better.

"But first" they say, "we have to get those damn Chinese to buy into the intellectual property thing. Otherwise our whole house of cards comes down. Now pass me some-a them quail hearts, son. The donkey show starts in a few minutes."

Re:We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

[value_added]

You can bet that the Western Paul Wolfowitz, IMF-types ...

A person reasonably up to date with respect to current events would know that it was recently determined (by people who are in a position to decide WTF an "IMF-type" is) that Mr. Wolfowitz is decidedly not one of them.

Conspiracy theorists or those in the habit of carrying placards and/or smashing windows in advocacy of certain social causes may hold a different view, of course. ;-)

Re:We Have Met the Enemy and He Is Us

[PopeRatzo]

it was recently determined (by people who are in a position to decide WTF an "IMF-type" is) that Mr. Wolfowitz is decidedly not one of them.

Oh, the Africans and Europeans threw his ass out of the IMF, sure. He's not their kind of oligarch, but he's certainly our kind of oligarch. The people in the White House and certain National Review matriarchs still mist over when they speak of him, that's for sure.

conspiracy theorists or those in the habit of carrying placards and/or smashing windows in advocacy of certain social causes

That's uncanny. Have we met?

Re:I wonder if...

[yahyamf]

That's an interesting point. The Chinese sell low quality goods and get paid in a low quality currency in exchange. They are holding over a trillion US dollars and stand to lose quite a bit due to rapid devaluation by the US Fed. However, the depreciating dollars do not exclusively affect China. It affects everyone with dollar denominated assets, especially Americans. Just look at the increasing prices of basic necessities like food and gas in recent years.

Sure, China might take a hit on their huge USD reserves, but in the mean while, they have built hundreds of factories, infrastructure and acquired real skills and real wealth. McDonalds recently announced a 30% pay raise for its employees in China. When was the last time that happened in the US?

They are also gaining political influence in countries with rich natural resources, such as in Africa and the Middle East. That influence would remain long after the dollar loses its reserve currency status. Their stockpile of dollars is also being used to threaten the US itself.

Why is this always seen as a threat?

[gathas]

I welcome the rest of the world starting to step up to plate and contribute. Innovation isn't a zero sum game and the more creative people working in integrated and "open" economies the better. A successful China doesn't need to be a negative to the world. The competition between G7 countries results in a net positive. Admittedly China still poses many concerns with it's repressive government. However the more integrated and successful they become, the more they have to lose by not playing by international rules. There are a billion Chinese looking to take your job, but hopefully there will also be a billion Chinese consumers looking for your goods and services.

Re:Why is this always seen as a threat?

[iminplaya]

A successful China doesn't need to be a negative to the world.

No, but strong IP law is a negative. And once China gets seriously into the game, they'll push for even stronger laws that will have the ultimate effect of suppressing innovation as is happening in the the US and Europe. Only the big corporations will benefit. Now is the time to show them and everybody else that copyrights and patents do more harm than good.

Re:Why is this always seen as a threat?

[gathas]

Thanks for taking a single line out of my post and commenting on it out of context. I'm sure you have a bright future as a tabloid journalist in front of you.

If you really need it spelled out:

Rest of World = Non G8 (USSR did invest in research)

Contribute = Investing capital into Research and Development and hence innovation.

Clearly ancient civilizations (China, India, etc.) have contributed significantly to human knowledge in the past, but post-colonial/post-WW2 these societies have not (for many reasons) had the ability (economic, political) to invest in innovation. Their recent efforts at expanding their efforts in research, development, and innovation are welcome.

Re:Why is this always seen as a threat?

[Fuzzums]

Ofcourse you realize that China here isn't the problem, but the IP system.
Do you think any African country has even the slightest chance against us or eu companies and the effect they have on regulations in general?

Re:Why is this always seen as a threat?

[iminplaya]

Don't know how Africa enters the picture, but China has all our money. They can do whatever they want, and soon will get pretty much anything they ask for. They've tasted the raw meat of western style consumerism, and will only want more. They will "protect their interests" in the same fashion we do ours. And they have the power to do it. I doubt we can say the same for Africa at the moment. The only clout they have is the choice to buy their weaponry from us(US and Europe) or Russia and China, which is a pretty big hammer as far as the arms dealers are concerned, but has nothing to do with the copyright/patent problem. However that does little to console the drug dealers(big pharma) when they claim "eminent domain" on their products to provide affordable medical care. Heh, now that I think about it, they could have an effect on policy, but in that case, a good one.

Re:Why is this always seen as a threat?

[Fuzzums]

My point was like this: For years we're protecting our markets against cheap products. Products from China, products from Africa.

China somehow has managed to break through our protections (and we shouldn't whine if they're going to protect their markets, because that's exactly what we did too).

The other side of the coin is that African (and South-American countries aswell) produce a lot of goods, but we're protecting our markets so they don't get any opportunity to sell their products for a fair price.

But as long as economy is mainly a local thing we'll keep seing this, I think.

Re:Why is this always seen as a threat?

[iminplaya]

China somehow has managed to break through our protections...

Sorry for the repetition, but again, China has all our money. We have no choice. There will be no protections from Chinese goods. They have the "nuclear option" that nobody else does. China is making the rules now. That's just not the case with Africa and South America.

This is good for the US

[rollingcalf]

Having the Chinese industries bogged down in patent disputes will slow down their innovation like what has happened in the US, thereby allowing the US to compete with them on a more level playing field.

Don't say IP. Say copr., patent, TM, or secret.

[tepples]

at some point they will really have to enforce some sort of IP Law to protect their own innovations and interests. By "IP law", do you mean "copyright law", "patent law", "trademark law", or "trade secret law"? The exclusive rights under these four legal traditions have different purposes, different scopes, and different durations. Painting them all with the broad stroke of "intellectual property" confuses the issue more than it helps anyone.

China's Miracle?

[Overzeetop]

Come now, you have dirt cheap labor, little to no government environmental/personnel regulation, and a fixed yuan-dollar ratio. There's no miracle, it's just simple economics. Had China not been closed for so many years, they would have reached this point a couple of decades ago.

China will find the same problem that the west has - everyone want's to be upper (or middle) class eventually. Very few in China are reaping the benfits of the changes, and many are happy just to make a better living than they had before. Eventually, thier children - or children's children - will want far more, and will expect more. A growing middle class will not put up with the destruction of their natural environment and unsafe (or "unfair" - definine it as you wish) working conditions. Pressure will be placed on the govenerment from many sides, and the government will start changing things.

It is simply a matter of time before things change. There are still places where manufacturing is cheap in the US. There are places in the US where $50k can provide a pleasant lifestyle for a family, and $80-90k is the local upper class. And some of those places are pretty darned nice places to live. Some may think those numbers are high, and those of you in the major metro areas will wonder how anyone can afford groceries on such an income. (Hint: in the next town over from me, there are new, 2000SF houses on a acre of land selling for under $100/sf, and taxes are under 1% of the value) As the middle class increases in China, the same wage pressures will occur, and - if they ever de-link their currency - it's going to result in the cost of goods from China increasing at a dramatic rate.

There will be more IP based production - it's the hallmark of modern civilization. Interestingly, I think we will find globalization retreat a bit in the next 50 years. As the cost of production increases in low-wage markets, transportation costs will shift marginal items back to a local advantage. This may become accellerated by the increasing cost for fuel (which, imho, is artificially inflated by the speculation markets...but that's another show). It will not put things back to the 1960s or 70s, but a new dynamic balance will form.

Re:China's Miracle?

[ScrewMaster]

I tend to agree with you. Historically speaking, people generally won't work for peanuts forever, and if they don't get a slice of the pie bad things happen. Still, will America even have a viable manufacturing sector in the next five or ten years, much less the decades it will take for the processes you describe to have their effect? A lot of things are happening very quickly right now, and I don't know if we have so much time.

What we are seeing are not natural market forces at work. China's economic "miracle" has been performed at the expense of the rest of the industrialized world (America in particular but Europe is being hit as well.) China's government has taken a number of calculated steps intended to acquire as much wealth, technology and scientific knowledge as possible in as short a time frame as they can manage. Their methods for doing so are destructive to other economies: granted, they simply exploited our weaknesses but nevertheless they are not good neighbors. When I dealing with a foreign company I'll choose one from Europe, thank you very much. You can do business with them ... they understand that good business means everyone walks away from the table with something.

Personally, I don't think we should be doing business with China at all (not that we have any choice in the matter at the moment) until they clean up their act. I doubt that's going to happen. I doubt they know how to make that happen. I know that we don't.

Re:China's Miracle?

[Overzeetop]

Hey, I didn't say it wasn't unintentional - just not a miracle. When you look at your resources and the demands of the world, then figure out how to capitalize, that's not rocket science. Bargaining from your strength is the way any sucessful business works. The question to be answered is whether or not the power base has the forethought to anticipate the upcoming changes.

It's no secret that some of the gulf states (UAE comes to mind) are taking the phenominal oil revenues they are generating and putting that money into other industries (tourism, particularly), in anticipation that the oil game won't last forever. That's a smart move, imho, though they are being a bit dramatic with it. It may or may not prove economically viable in the future (the hair salon owner/wife of a doctor who's shop has marble floors and an espresso counter comes to mind), but it may be enough splash to give them the momentum it takes to be a self sustaining economy without the mountain of reserve cash. Las Vegas manages to do it.

Re:China's Miracle?

[Beetle B.]

"When I dealing with a foreign company I'll choose one from Europe, thank you very much. You can do business with them ... they understand that good business means everyone walks away from the table with something. Yes, like the folks who funded a slave driven diamond industry in Africa?

Or like the vulture funds in the US that work towards depriving basic necessities such as education in third world countries?

Or those that go around supporting the murder of union leaders in Colombia.

Or those that decide that it's OK to make water unaffordable for the folks in Bolivia.

Or those that fund a terrorist group so that they can earn a larger profit?

Oh - I'm sorry. These guys just aren't guilty of being Chinese. Everything is fine in that case.

Re:I wonder if...

[MotorMachineMercenar]

Correction: it's 1+ trillion dollar _equivalent_. Dollars account for 30-60 of that 1+ trillion, which is still more than any other country's reserves, including the US.

How China is "competitive" on the global market

[pkbarbiedoll]

1) Force people to work for a pittance
2) Allow children to make toxic toys for Americans
3) No minimum hours per week, no overtime
4) IP theft
5) Lax environmental regulations

But most of all, at least relating to America's 850 billion dollar trade deficit (as of 2007), is the fact that China artificially lowers the Yaun to appear more competitive on the global market. This practice alone has decimated U.S. manufacturing sector and is why we have a nearly 1 trillion dollar trade deficit - with no end in sight.

Re:How China is "competitive" on the global market

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Force people to work for a pittance

A pittance in the US is a decent wage in China. A standard year of work in the US, is slave labor in France.

2) Allow children to make toxic toys for Americans

Don't buy them.

3) No minimum hours per week, no overtime

Did you mean Maximum hours? There are laws. Enforcement is lax, but they do exist. I'm in China. I get overtime, paid vacations, paid health insurance.

4) IP theft

And this is different from anyone else?

5) Lax environmental regulations

Yes. Kinda similar to the US 100 years ago.

Re:How China is "competitive" on the global market

[DigiShaman]

Whoever said communism doesnt work :(

It doesn't work, which is why the CCP has changed its strategy. Basically, the CCP should be standing for "Chinese Capitalist Party" these days, but within an authoritarian framework.

Re:How China is "competitive" on the global market

[thanatos_x]

The last point is very big. See also the fact that George Bush will probably be the best president China ever had, just like Nevile Chamberlin was the best Prime Minister Germany ever had.

Re:How China is "competitive" on the global market

[SageMusings]

Well the "Great Leap Forward" did cause major famine and death. Whereas in the Soviet Union there was a lot malice at work, the Chinese suffered from incompetence. The result, however, was the same.

Level the playing field?

[pkbarbiedoll]

The playing field could be leveled by forcing China to stop artificially lowering the Yaun, which makes China appear more competitive on the global market. This practice alone has decimated U.S. manufacturing sector and is why we have a nearly 1 trillion dollar trade deficit - with no end in sight.

Re:Level the playing field?

[afabbro]

To paraphrase Hunter S. Thompson, "Revaluing the Yaun just slaps at the problem. Nerve gas solves it."

Reply:We Have Met t and He Is Wai Funny

[OldHawk777]

Good one! (Sorry, I ain't got no points)

May the gods bless EU, US, and one and all with more plutocratic exploit corporatism.

Oh, so *now* they care about patents?

[Fear the Clam]

I'm sure the rest of the world will treat Chinese IP with the same respect that they've shown for the rest of the world.

Knowing China's penchant for taking shortcuts, I'd double-check every one of those patents against existing registries.

Re:Oh, so *now* they care about patents?

[w000t]

Yes, I'm sure we'll find that, unlike the patents submitted by the rest of the world, the ones submitted by China will be just a regurgitation of obvious ideas for which previous art can be easily found.

Re:Oh, so *now* they care about patents?

[TheGratefulNet]

yeah, its laughable to mention china and 'IP rights' in the same sentence.

I was designing a hardware device and started to investigate what it would take to have it built in china. I got some ideas on the cost of plastic molding and the circuit layout and I started to shop around for partners in china.

then it dawned on me - I would be doing all the design work and paying for the prototypes and mold for the plastic boxes; and guess what - there is NO assurance that all my hard work would be respected and that my design would not find its way into some other shop that would make 10x or 100x as many as I could afford (for the first run) and then they'd be laughing all the way to the bank - at mostly my expense.

I soon gave up on the idea since I don't have any experience dealing with international prototype design and construction. the risk was too great and I did not TRUST them to honor my design and keep it private.

so I gave up. I did not pursue it any farther. I really did not want to DONATE a design to a culture that has zero respect for actual designers.

what's needed is tit-for-tat. the US companies should totally blunder all of china's IP and completely ignore any so-called patents they have. its only fair if we BOTH play by the same rules, right?

Re:Oh, so *now* they care about patents?

[TheGratefulNet]

oops. sed /blunder/plunder/

doh!

(hmmm, freudian?)

'Stolen By China' More likely

[JasperCraft]

I've talked to several people who have run into their own patents being rewritten in Chinese and patented in China by someone in China. Its amazing what they are allowing, simple google searches would reveal the patent is a copy and yet, seemingly totally legal. I wonder how many of this rise in patents is due to this policy/process/scam? However, as one of my language professors once said, translations are often creative.

Re:For the Chinese, creativity == IP theft

[DaedalusHKX]

Amazing how the same can be said for the west. Echelon via the UN/US SigInt operations was merely one that became public, and recall that the Europeans actually bitched about Echelon being used to steal IP info more than spy on their buddies at the KGB.

Surprised that the same strategy would be turned against its maker? As I recall the Chinese also invented gunpowder, fireworks, a complex alphabet, kung fu, and they had this funny short ugly guy called Sun Tzu in our language, who just happened to pretty much invent the basis for modern tactics, on the battle field AND in the board room. They're just applying it to us now. Good for them. Bad for us though.

Have I missed anything?

it's not a miracle

[dAzED1]

'Made by China' rather than simply 'Made in China' will mean that the country's economic miracle stands a far better chance of lasting longer.

I suppose it was a "miracle" when we used slaves here in the US to do farming, build railroads, etc?

They have 1/5 the total world population...current estimate: 1,321,851,888.

Japan has 127,433,494 people.

And the US? 301,139,947.

China has more than 3 times the population of Japan and the US combined.

Further, China is taking the cheapest route on everything, and is suffering for it. The air quality there is horrendous, the water isn't drinkable - hell, we'll need to worry about them invading someone soon just so they can find someplace to be able to breathe. Cutting corners, doing no pollution control, no sanitation efforts...yeah, of course you can make extra $$ that way. At what cost, though.

The only miraculous thing here is that they are doing so poorly despite these and other things massively in their favor.

Re:it's not a miracle

[asm2750]

Didn't some one say it would be a couple of decades before all of their environmental and social problems catch up that will be come a total cluster f***?

Re:it's not a miracle

[w000t]

What? Are you saying that a population that big is actually something in their favor? It's not, that's why they have birth control laws. Unlike some people here seem to believe, China is not building an army to overtake the world (which is about the one scenario where having such a big population would be a good thing).
Now, what I really don't get is why everyone seems is so concerned with China becoming a wealthy country... Shouldn't the fact that 1/5 of the world population lives there make it a good thing?

Re:it's not a miracle

[DigiShaman]

I'll never forget the day I was in Shanghai and saw three men breaking up a sideway with jackhammers. All three had their faces covered in white concrete dust. Not really a big deal until you realize they were *not* wearing any eye protection and masks.

WTF?! Seriously, if I had some safety goggles, I would have ran off the bus and handed them out. I mean, either these men are ignorant, or simply don't care about personal safety.

Boggles the mind!

Re:it's not a miracle

[dAzED1]

for creating GDP, a larger population is most certainly a benefit. I can't fathom why you would think elsewise.

Re:it's not a miracle

[ghyd]

"The only miraculous thing here is that they are doing so poorly despite these and other things massively in their favor."

But poorly on which count, there are many things to evaluate! they seem to do reasonably well all in all, like at quickly industrializing and urbanizing, and also improving their life expectancy which is now is now 71 years old. They also seem to catch up quick in the personal income area, as you can see in the first of the following links when it is compared to US incomes:

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/140
http://tools.google.com/gapminder/

They seem to do reasonably well in many areas given where they come from, but maybe I'm only noting this because there's not many positives outlook on China in our, I believe, fearful societies, and I'm finally surprised by the relevant statistics.

Re:it's not a miracle

[w000t]

Well, that's any obvious meaningless truth. Of course they're bound to have an enormous GDP: they represent one fucking fifth of the planet. The fact they are not even close to that (according to Wikipedia less than 1/20) says that they are actually doing pretty bad. The GDP alone says little about how well a country is doing if you don't take into account the country's population. I would much rather be in the Norwegian situation (or a any other under populated European country) than China's.

Re:it's not a miracle

[dAzED1]

which is what I said. China's economy is no "miracle," it is actually very poor, considering all the things going for it (China's economy, not China's future or its citizenry).

Now that I've repeated myself...

Re:it's not a miracle

[w000t]

Seems I misunderstood your original post... If with

despite these and other things massively in their favor. you were talking about those things pushing their GDP growth, then we obviously agree (I misread the tone in that sentence).

Re:it's not a miracle

[dAzED1]

sorry, yes. They have so many things that should push economic growth, and should make their GDP massive, yet their economy isn't really (those factors considered) that great. There's nothing "miraculous" about their economy at all. All things actually considered, it's rather poor. The fact that they will soon pay for some of those cost-cutting methods (lack of pollution and sanitation control) just makes it worse.

One has to then wonder why, despite those factors, their economy is in fact doing so poorly. The answer seems somewhat obvious to me, but...well, it's certainly a different type of discussion, at the very least.

You're forgetting that a lot of these patents are

[melted]

You're forgetting that a lot of these patents are by US companies that have research centers in China. IBM, Microsoft, Nokia - those are on the first page of what Google returns for "research centers in beijing".

My rights?

[Beetle B.]

Is it just me, or can someone explain intelligently (with backup) as to why this is an issue regarding our rights online? Sounds like a lot of FUD to me.

Lax Environmental Regulations

[pkbarbiedoll]

Yes. Kinda similar to the US 100 years ago.

The difference is that, now, we know better.

Bah! Just get your own patents!

[EmbeddedJanitor]

USPTO is not shy about issuing many patents for the same idea. I'm sure they would happily issue a US patent for a CHinese idea!

Compare quality patents only

[EmbeddedJanitor]

but patents are one measure to determine the way the industrial trends are moving.

Using patents as a scoreboad are stupid though. I expect USA is over represented in http://www.patentlysilly.com/. To use patents as a meaningful indicator needs better analysis than just raw numbers. Rather you need to look at the rate of patenting high quality (impoortant and non-duplicate) ideas.

We are making tons of money in China too

[bigwiki]

China has all our money This is a wrong perception. We tend to only look at one side. But American companies are making tons of money from China too. GM, Starbucks, McDonalds, Motorola, CocaCola and every big American brand is selling their products in China and take money away from the Chinese. That's why US economy keeps growing and stock market is all time high.

Re:We are making tons of money in China too

[iminplaya]

But American companies are making tons of money from China too.

That doesn't explain the trade deficit if those numbers are to be believed. Maybe those companies should pay a bit higher tax. The stock market is so high because it doesn't take into account the accrued debt or it's assuming that these companies will pay up when the loan is called. The whole system is working on credit, or faith as the case may be, and Wall Street(and the government) is doing ok because its credit rating is still good. I would like to see what happens if the public was to close its bank accounts and cut up their credit cards. It bears repeating that ours is a faith based economy, and once that faith is lost, it's "game over, man". Remember, Enron's, WorldCom's, Lincoln Savings & Loan's numbers were all pretty good, too, just they got caught cooking the books. There is no reason to believe that the whole of Wall Street isn't doing the exact same thing. Don't be deceived by those "record" numbers. They are an illusion to keep that faith alive.

Re:We are making tons of money in China too

[Cathbard]

Iraq switched oil trade from US dollars to Euro and were trying to convince OPEC to do the same. It would have completely upset the US's fragile debt based economy if opec nations flushed their accounts of dollars for euro. We all know what happened next don't we? Now China on the other hand ..... would the US invade China if it cashed in it's dollars? I doubt it and if they did, global warming would fade into insignificance. "Thank god nuclear winter cancelled out global warming" - Taranga Leela

Re:We are making tons of money in China too

[richie2000]

That's why US economy keeps growing You, dear Sir, are living in a big fat bubble.

All your PC are belong to us!

[Dark_Gravity]

That's an interesting point. The Chinese sell low quality goods Nearly every computing component is made in China (or Taiwan which is ultimately China). Are these the low quality goods of which you speak?

Because it *is* a threat, and we can contain it.

[sethstorm]

A successful China doesn't need to be a negative to the world. The competition between G7 countries results in a net positive.
In terms of quality, it's only gone downward if you don't hail from Wall Street. Quite hollow of a positive unless you're wishing to recreate the Gilded Age.

Innovation isn't a zero sum game and the more creative people working in integrated and "open" economies the better.
Innovation has yet to happen over there. It only is a haven for those who want to escape business regulation - regulation that is not tight enough.

Like the UN for some, the WTO is largely ineffective and should be left to the slave-labor nations, with a plan for the developed nations. An EU/US bilateral treaty would at least allow for some trade while allowing our own on both sides to "take care of our own". Combine that with strict "front company prohibition" regulations, then allow others to join when they meet labor, quality of life, product safety, and universal higher education admission standards. If that means China is delayed by 200 years, so be it. Slave labor is not excusable by any means.

There are a billion Chinese looking to take your job, but hopefully there will also be a billion Chinese consumers looking for your goods and services.
Improve the quality from worker to product - then we can talk trade. Otherwise cheaply made trinkets, a devalued yuan, slave labor, and those who take up slots at our educational institutions(with 1.4bn people, there should be plenty of slots over there) tend to turn that region of the world into a target. Please hope that for your sake that it does not become a military target. The longer you continue, that risk increases that it will be for a large enough population to skip economic sanctions, straight to full-on war.

Leave your hypercompetitive attitude in the sporting arena, and stop penalizing citizens from obtaining a first-class education. Otherwise you're just letting that country "juice up", largely at our expense.

With SCO largely gone...

[sethstorm]

...will Darl try his game there, or will he wisely avoid signing his own death sentence by becoming a patent troll there?

Re:For the Chinese, creativity == IP theft

[jwo7777777]

That complex alphabet, and indeed most pictographic alphabets, is efficient in the use of printed space, but has a steep learning curve once it became stylized. Its advantage fades due to globalization and low cost information storage.

I hope we do not have to play economic chicken with them. The oriental mindset would sacrifice a lot simply to "save face." This would be stubborn, childish, sum-zero behavior that is detrimental to both parties. The Chinese are not stupid, but their relationship management methods sometimes leave them intransigent.

It was explained to me that "Sun Tzu" roughly translates to "Good Little Boy", meaning it was a pseudonym and doesn't even require that the author was one person. Also, one can look at other earlier military history across the civilized world to see the ideas expressed in "Art of War."