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Microsoft Bought Sweden's ISO Vote on OOXML?
a_n_d_e_r_s writes "The vote on OOXML looked fairly secured. Most in the Working Group in Sweden was against the vote to approve OOXML. The day of the vote, though, more companies showed up at the door. Some 20 new companies — each one payed about $2500 to be allowed to vote — and vote they did ... for Microsoft. Most of the new companies were partners from Microsoft who suddenly out of the blue joined the Working Group, payed membership fees and voted yes for approval. From the OS2World story: 'The final result was 25 Yes, 6 No and 3 Abs and this would from the start be a done deal of saying No! Jonas Bosson who participated in today's meeting on behalf on FFII said that he left the meeting in protest and so did also IBM's Swedish local representative Johan Westman.'"
Never has the old phrase been so accurate.
You can't talk about Wikipedia's flaws on Wikipedia
Why can't Microsoft compete without buying the outcome of the game? Are their products that poor?
Too bad the truth gets lost when the money starts talking. *sigh*
We all know that M$ doesn't play fair in terms of open standards, and never will. Why are we surprised?
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
...good old-fashioned democracy at work. Seriously, though, what kind of organization are they running, here? Any company, from anywhere, can suddenly be a member just by paying 2500-- a nominal fee, for many large companies. That seems like asking for trouble to me.
Did they cheat somehow? Is there some reason that these companies should NOT have been allowed to vote? Are any of them not legitimate companies? No? Then STFU and stop whining.
Truly, they are evil, and any person of conscience could not work there and retain their integrity.
"Skill shows through where genius wears thin." -Wittgenstein || Religion: uniting aviation and architecture.
As usual we see the good old "bully" tactic being adopted.
Btw now if your procedures are flawed since the beginning don't come to whine.
1. How come could some companies who didn't participated into the "preparation meetings" could come here and vote ?
2. Ah wait there was some buck to pay to vote...
prove me wrong fanboys, after you're done rebooting
It's called conflict of interest. Had these companies *not* been Microsoft partners it *might* be acceptable, but not otherwise.
Kudos to Google for being one of those to "suddenly" join, but on the "No" side. Most of the other companies on the list of new arrivals are unfamiliar to me, excepting Google and HP, and we don't officially know how HP's vote went.
Shame on the others for having no sense of decency.
... in Germany, Deutsche Telekom and Google would have voted "no". However, both were not allowed to vote because they came in late. And another guy left the voting session early, but his "yes" was counted although before it was said that only votes count that were given in presence. (according to Heise (german))
Microsoft & OOXML & You at the front
Step 1 - allow votes to be bought.
Step 2 - take money from companies who wish to buy votes.
Step 3 - Profit!
Step 3a - Complain about the unfairness of it all, all the way to the bank.
I'm not sure what the actual written rules were; however the spirit of the process is clear. The aim is that companies involved in standardisation should try to independently vote for what they think is a good international standard. The fact is that a bunch of companies that knew nothing voted for MS because they were told they would benefit. That is corruption (abusing public processes for personal gain) and everybody involved should be in prison with a life exclusion from any position of authority.
It's also very funny the way that people have so completely lost track of what they should do and only thin about what the could do. I can set tens of "legitimate companies" tomorrow. Does that mean I should be able to influence international decisions? Don't be stupid.
Shame the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act does not work for Working Groups.t ices_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Prac
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I dont see this as "being bought", so much as the self interest of the companies who voted. If you're a Microsoft partner, it's in your best interest to vote for Microsoft. However I'm sure Microsoft rang their phones to "remind them" that they could go vote.
I would file this under corporate strategy. One could argue that it would have been irresponsible for Microsoft (or any business for that matter) to not attempt to sway a decision that directly impacts their business through lobbying tactics where it has the ability to do so. Plus, there was nothing to indicate that it involved nefarious or illegal methods to do so.
I'm sure many would do the same with their own companies to bolster support for something they created.
The F/OSS people make themselves look like ninnies by whining over this. Capitalism is war for the most profit, by any means necessary that aren't illegal. This wasn't illegal. They won. Either change the rules, or stop complaining.
technical writing / development
It's a tactic that's unfortunately too common, but easily defended against, with either of these options:
A) Don't let new members vote for any issues until they've been members for a certain period of time, or
B) Don't let new members vote on any issue that had already been opened for debate (or perhaps officially proposed) prior to their joining.
It's as simple as that.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Sickening.
We have monopoly laws, not to outlaw monopolies, but to prevent ONE company from using overwhelming advantage in one market from simply buying out, in turn, all and any other markets they care to. We have laws preventing this. If they were actually enforced. Microsoft would be in a straitjacket but for the Bush Justice Department walking in on a fait accompli dismantling of their corporate advantage after Judge Jackson's spanking, and simply tossing the conviction out the window by ignoring it.
Now they are openly -- brazenly -- buying markets. And the DOJ doesn't give a damn. Well, they'd best hurry, the Repubs are about to lose power for a decade or more. Steal what you can, "retired" Mr. Gates.
OK, so I know a lot of people here get up in arms about OOXML. So I'll ask the naive question--why? What will be the tangible difference if this does/does not become an ISO standard? MS will still use it either way, I assume. There will still be a cloud hanging over it for "vendor lock in," even if it's officially a "standard."
So, what's the specific objection? Does being a standard give some sort of legal or contractual high ground to MS? Or is this just something to put in marketing materials? Or is something else going on?
Note that I'm NOT trying to say that I think the whole thing is unimportant. I just don't understand the issue. Someone help me out with why I should get worked up about this.
Partial translation of FFII Sweden press release:l
http://ffii.se/pr/2007-08-27-se-ooxml-vote-en.htm
The rich dude (Hearst) walked away with town and all its gold by rigging local elections. Unbelievable.
Oops. My tpying siklls sometmies deyf loigc.
Shoulda previewed, ya think?
irrelevant in a way because ODF looks to be fast becoming a de-facto standard regardless. out numbering OOXML something in the order of 250 to 1.
a ll-ooxml-documents.html 7 0813-1201
see:
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/05/so-where-are-
http://www.geniisoft.com/showcase.nsf/archive/200
of course, the MS tactic is to get OOXML recognized and then default to it across the windows suite.
but as I remember they have tried this was a number of formats before - but once a file format is recognized as a de-facto standard (MP3, HTML, JPG) they are notoriously hard to shift.
irrelevant as it may be its still a damn depressing indication of the way business is done and sensible, rational decisions are perverted to line company pockets. this sort of thing annoys me.
This is a quote from the SIS.SE home page:
Translation in english: "It's not money that makes the world go around. Do you want to know what it is?"
Apparently the answer is: money
Badgers, we don't need no stinking badgers! - UHF
I'm surprised it has not been covered on slashdot, but similar things have occured in Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Portugal, Australia, etc. Microsoft is determined to push its proprietary "open" format through by any means neccessary:
1 23112581
1 25524759
2 35113424
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070824
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070815
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070723
___
If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it.
things like this fill my heart with joy. i just love to see slashdotters rant and rave over an obviously biased blog. had there been a spin on this that was making it seem like an anti-microsoft conspiracy you'd all be howling for better sources then some third rate blog.
slashdot fails it yet again!
Such awesome leadership! Such resposible corporate governance!
Aren't you just so proud to be part of such a great system?
BTW, thanks Billy!
So since these companies are allowed to sign up... and allowed to vote... what's the deal?
It sounds like the problem was the FOSSie MS-haters were gloating for weeks about how they were going to dick over MS, and the victory they expected never materialized (just like everything else in their lives).
It may hurt you to acknowledge it, but businesses LIKE Microsoft. MS is very business-friendly, and very focused on making happy business customers.
This article is just more sour grapes for FOSSies.
You hold a vote for a standard, & charge more for the privledge to vote than not many more companies than Microsoft would be willing to pay, & don't expect somthing like this to happen ?
Whoever made this decision better be retarded, or a Microsoft employee, that's the only way they're getting out of this alive.
First we need to know what we want. I wouldn't want a Communist system. It's just like a software project. Can we patch capitalism, or do we need to do extensive modifications, or is it time for an extended re-code with added or changed capabilities? If we know what we want, then we can find out who to ask, how to get VCs involved, and how to popularize it in the mass media.
technical writing / development
"Corporate Democracy In Action" protects defenseless corporate, government, and religious institutions from the ravages of the viral public infestation attempting to managing national interest, markets, and resources. Corporatism estates include the public contained within which can be bought, sold, spent ... as the owning corporatism estate finds most beneficial to sustainment.
... Citizens with such an overt and public display of power and control (ThemS&MostOthers) and leaving no doubt that any public demonstration without financial dictate is pitifully fake.
... corporate welfare, less for US, EU, UN ....
... Corporations.
It would be a sad state of affairs if the oligarchical owners of draconian institution, whom dress in godly-patriotic and humanitarian camouflage, could not continue to service the public for private pseudo-sexual (megalomania) satisfaction.
God bless them, one and all, for servicing US, EU, UN
Paraphrasing an old social philosopher; "Any war will kill my enemy (the citizens), but I need to make sure I win." They always dress in dress in godly-patriotic and humanitarian camouflage. More US, EU, UN
"Corporate Democracy In Action" is good for US, EU, UN
"We The People" are the property of the corporate-estate.
Within the New World Order Corporate Estates, exploitation
will get you much further in life then complaining. In a
war you must be on the "RightSide" to be in control.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
If Microsoft made undisclosed payments to them to go and vote, that information is material to shareholders, and if it's not explained to them then its an SEC violation.
Seriously, all these back door deals Microsoft does are gonna end land them in pound-em-in-the-ass-prison sooner or later.
Look at the HDDVD one, Microsoft pays 150 million to a customer Paramount & Dreamworks to use it's HDDVD format exclusively. It then portrays it to their shareholders as a contract 'win', concealing the payment. How long before that stuff will land them in jail?
Doing something legal does not equal doing something right. The fault is on the side of whoever set up the entry rules for the vote but such strategy on the part of Microsoft should be condemned.
Any person involved in Sweden (and any other country where purportedly similar shady actions occurred) with this issue should help to make sure that as much evidence as possible is registered, as it may be necessary in the future.
Possible things:
The odd 20 companies, who represented them, presentations lists of previous meetings showing their absence, etc., etc.
Bert
If they approve OOXML, they do so at the expense of what little remaining credibility they have. Hopefully the OSI are watching this closely; see also every other working group that ever let Microsoft participate.
Despite the continuing malice, anti-competitive behavior and outright mockery of process; WGs still can't seem to drop their pants fast enough when Microsoft make an appearance.
There are places where using open standards is a requirement, and Microsoft is trying to get in by creating their own 'standard' and buying voters to approve it as an ISO standard. To avoid this cheating, open standards adopters could add a rule that says: a truly open standard is one that has at least two different implementations (from distinct vendors). This principle rules out 'standards' that are not really open.
I am not really here right now.
Poor products or not it looks like they invested $50k to cement their format as a standard. Considering they stand to make billions from that, it was a wise investment.
Yeah, because a company with $40,000,000,000 in the bank could not have just hired people to make a standard people want to use.
It is the people who designed a system that could so easily be bought who should be ashamed, if that wasn't their intended outcome in the first place.
Careful what you wish for, apologist. They should just pass a rule against "standards" from convicted monopolists. How else can you eliminate this kind of monkey business without blocking legitimate input from small companies who care?
A company can't deny its nature.
So tell me what kind of company M$ is. You would be hard pressed to call them a software company because they are not really good at that. Perhaps you could call them a coercive standards company, sort of the opposite of what ISO stands for, because they are so good at buying and forcing their technically inferior crap.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I'd like to write them to express my anger, and distrust in their system so that they will have pressure to reject this vote. Does anyone know an address (physical/email) that this could be sent to?
I know that to be cool on /. you're not supposed to have even minimal competence in English, especially for native English speakers. But why not be even cooler and rebel against this retarded ethos! Be bold and brave! Dare to spell!
we will end no whine before its time
Hmm. If things continue this way, and we end up with the ISO effectively rubber-stamping OOXML on the strength of purchased votes, what effect will this have on the ISO's credibility in the long run? The ISO looks after a lot more standards than just data exchange formats; will we have to consider that every single one of those standards is potentially bought and paid for by its richest benecifiaries, despite technical flaws in the standard and opposition from peers?
I can't help thinking that the OOXML standardisation effort should be shelved until one of two things becomes true: either at least two or more independent implementations, developed by distinct organisations from the specification alone, can be shown to interoperate to a degree that justifies the moniker "standard"; or preferably, a complete reference implementation, with full source code available under a BSD (or equally permissive) licence, is submitted with the proposal. In fact, I can't understand why this isn't, er, standard practice. Were it so, the OOXML efforts could be trivially dismissed on technical grounds, and this whole dog and pony show could be avoided.
This story is (anonymously) tagged "conspiracytheory". I'd like to see the coincidence theorist explain how this happened without Microsoft's trademark coordinating manipulations.
--
make install -not war
if you look at the MS jobs web site, you'll see that they have more than ten thousand open positions - so clearly people *don't* want to work there.
That's good news.
My guess is that a fair bunch of MS employees do so *only* to keep a shirt on their backs and not for the love of the job or the company.
There's got to be a better way and every single person there should be looking for it. Evil people can not get things done without the co-operation of people who should know better. The surest way to stop evil is to refuse that that co-operation.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
28 Oogoost 2007: ebuoot 20 Meecrusufft pertners eppeered in zee feenel meenootes ooff yesterdey's vurkeeng meeteeng et SIS (Svedeesh Stunderds Insteetoote-a) und pooshed thruoogh a mejureety fur a SIS epprufel ooff Meecrusufft's noo OoOXML feele-a furmet es un ISO stunderd. In meeteeng et SIS yesterdey oon zee stunderdeeseshun ooff Meecrusufft's OoOXML feele-a furmet (i.i. in preencipel zee feele-a furmet used in Ooffffeece-a 2007) 23 noo cumpuneees sooddenly eppeered thet hed nut prefeeuoosly perteecipeted in zee vurkeeng gruoop, a mejureety ooff zeese-a cumpuneees ere-a Meecrusufft pertners (see-a inclused). Frum a cleer NO-mejureety emung zee members, zee resoolt in zee cuoorse-a ooff joost oone-a dey beceme-a a YES. Zee feenel resoolt ves 25 in fefuoor, 6 egeeenst; 4 members lefft zee meeteeng. Thees elsu meuns thet zee vurk veet hoondreds ooff sooggested currecshuns hefe-a beee mede-a fueed in oone-a dey; zeey veell nut be-a furverded tu ISO in uny furm -- despeete-a strung creeticism egeeenst zee prupusel frum seferel seegnifficunt perteees. Emung zeese-a, must hed beee ecteefe-a seence-a beffure-a, i.g. Neshunel Ercheefes, Zee Ruyel Leebrery und Soon, ell ooff vheech hed soobmeetted creeticism oon seferel pueents. Junes Bussun, Cheurmun ooff FFII in Svedee, cumments: "SIS hundleeng ooff thees is deffeecient tu sey zee leest -- despeete-a knooeeng a greet deel ebuoot thees prublem elreedy oon Thoorsdey zeey deed nut teke-a uny ecshun. Zee stunderdeeseshun prucess is booeelt oon zee preenciple-a ooff cunsensoos, vheech ves fery deefffficoolt tu cunceeefe-a ooff yesterdey. It hed beee pusseeble-a und desureble-a fur SIS tu drev a cleer leene-a egeeenst zeese-a types ooff scenereeus, boot regrettebly zeey hefe-a chusee tu sooppurt zee recummendeshun ooff zee vurkeeng gruoop ifee under zeese-a curcoomstunces." Zee futeeng in zee ISO (Interneshunel Oorguneezeshun fur Stunderdeezeshun) member cuoontreees inds oon 2 September. Bork Bork Bork!
is not that Microsoft bought all those votes - but that the ISO let them. And that we can't do anything about it. Or can we? I'd love to know how.
The submitter writes that most people in the Working Group were against the OOXML, then 20 new companies show up and vote yes for a final vote tally of 25-6-3 in favour. Even without those 20 votes, the tally would still be 5-6-3. I know this is slashdot, but in what way would leading by a single vote qualify as "most people" being against OOXML?
...money can buy.
...so long as MS is against the wall. Blindfolds or not, I don't care.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
- Camako Data AB (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Connecta AB (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Cornerstone Sweden AB (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Cybernetics (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Emric AB
- Exor AB (Microsoft Certified Partner)
- Fishbone Systems AB (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Formpipe Software (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- FS System AB
- Google
- HP (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- IBizkit AB (Microsoft Certified Partner)
- IDE Nätverkskonsulterna (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- IT-Vision AB
- Illuminet
- Know IT (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Modul1 (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Nordic Station AB (Microsoft Certified Partner)
- ReadSoft AB (Microsoft Certified Partner)
- Sogeti (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- Solid Park AB (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- SourceTech AB
- Strand Interconnect AB (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
- TietoEnator (Microsoft Gold Certified Partner)
If you work for any of these companies, please contact management and ask them to explain themselves.He makes a good point. The only real controversy was the MS-haters thought defeating OOXML was a "done deal", and it wasn't.
Now that they have lost the vote, they are trying to generate some kind of fake outrage.
Sounds like they would be happier with a dictatorial process, rather than a democratic one.
This reminds me of a political joke I heard somewhere. I've adapted it to programming.
God was in a good mood and decided to give virtues to people. One day he decided to give all the programmers in the world three virtues:
They would be smart, well-intentioned, and work for Microsoft. But an angel told him: Hey, wait a minute, aren't they too many virtues?
"You're right", said God. "They'll have these virtues but a person can only have two of these virtues at the same time".
Since then, programmers in the world were divided in the three following groups:
Programmers who were smart and well-intentioned, couldn't work for Microsoft.
Programmers who were smart and worked for Microsoft, couldn't be well-intentioned.
Programmers who were well-intentioned and worked for Microsoft, couldn't be smart.
We'll just create some new XLSs to transform documents from one format to the other.
We'll survive, believe me.
It's so common for MS, that I cannot say again "I'm outraged". It is just MS stuff.
Steal what you can, "retired" Mr. Gates.
You fail to see the point in here. Microsoft has become a living entity. It's not Gates, nor Ballmer. It's Microsoft itself, along with its shareholders and leaders. Its corporate structure has been adapted to become a monopoly, and to step on everything to fulfill its goals. Anyone disagreeing with it is rejected, and seen as a pathogen agent to keep the system running.
Microsoft has become a cancer for the free world, and it must die.
This is a perfect example of the majority rules vote failing to manifest an outcome that a majority really want. I am a big believer in the consensus process, where no decision can stand that any of the group block, therefore the discussion takes longer, but the outcome is acceptable to all. Also consensus minus one is a good variant, meaning that ONE blocker does not suffice.
;)
My two cents.
Joshua
When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!
You're describing corporatism, not capitalism.
Capitalism is based on supply and demand, where companies or individuals create the supply to fill the demands of the customer. It is as simple as that. (Okay, it's never as simple as that.)
As soon as you support powerful corporations manipulating the market in any way, you are not longer a capitalist. You are a corporatist.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
PAYED/PAID
If you paid attention in school, you know that the past tense of "pay" is "paid" except in the special sense that has to do with ropes: "He payed out the line to the smuggler in the rowboat." Now I'm the last person to be a spelling nazi but fucking Christ, people!
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
An organization that has no ethics is worthless.
Rules are always more a mater of their spirit than their letter. The protest of other members is real and well founded. It's pretty obvious that M$ played the organizations rules to get a result that is against everything the organization stands for. If the organization does not investigate and punish this kind of blatant abuse, the organization will lose all community respect.
A reasonable US Government would investigate M$ for corrupt foreign practices.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
how defective OOXML is. After all, if it wasn't defective, why resort to cheating to get it declared a standard?
It looks like Microsoft has decided to follow a scorched-earth policy on standards. Do anything to get the "standards" you want, even if you make a mockery of the standards process and soil the reputation of the standards organizations along the way.
http://www.sis.se/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=23
Goto SIS website and mail them and tell them what you think about this scandal!
As a geek, it is your duty, it is your responsibility!
how defective ISO is.
The ISO's votes are not valid if they don't study the technical conditions of something to be declared standard.
So, if ISO has declared OOXML standard then i hate ISO OOXML and ISO, and i don't need them.
I would like to know. Is there anything we can do? Write to the ISO? Anything? Or can we just sit and watch while this happens?
OS/2 World??? LOLOL /. to cover the other side).
Didn't know there were still sites pimping for an OS that's been obsolete for 10 years now.
Anyway, clearly a site advocating OS/2 would have an axe to grind against Microsoft. That's fine, but I'm sure there's an opposing side to this story (not that I expect
And so what if Microsoft partners showed up to vote YES? Obviously those partners intend to use OOXML an want it to be an ISO standard. The stranger thing is that those that are opposed to OOXML being an ISO standard have no intent to use OOXML so why do they care?
Obviously, the reason the care is that they want to use ISO status as a differentiator between ODF and OOXML in lobbying efforts to convince governments to mandate exclusive use of ODF. We all know that this is about politics, not technical merit, and those that deny that are just being disingenuous.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
And, also, why did they refuse to extend ODF to incorporate those precious (formalized / parameterized) AutoSpaceLikeWord95 features, which would have been a PITA for their competition to implement? Now they are actually whining that ODF isn't "feature-complete" enough for them so they had to invent OOXML.
I think any comment that ODF would be deficient as the default file format for Microsoft Office is FUD until you can provide examples.
There are lots of detailed examples that OOXML is crap (see the commentary of those national bureaus that weren't silenced or corrupted), the ODF spec is approx 10% as many pages as OOXML, surely you can come up with *some* examples where it is deficient? Otherwise all you do is spreading Microsoft's FUD.
You mentioned spreadsheets: please enlighten us with your comments. Is it about par. 8.1.3 p. 189,
?Agreed, that's under-specified and would benefit from a future clarification, such as OpenFormula.
But it's not wrong, unlike the "dates start at either 1900 or 1904 i forget which but at least 1900 is a leap year from now on" crap from OOXML (part 4, par. 3.17.4.1, p. 2522, if you don't believe me -- I almost fell of my chair when I read that paragraph).
THAT is what those companies and national bureaux voted for, to make that an international standard. They should be ashamed.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
They started making deals, they're making open source and seeking license approval, they're saying they will interoperate -- and they try to look more Linux-friendly.
4 8
See: http://www.flickr.com/photos/48637819@N00/4128641
No need to be afraid...
Ahahahahahaha - and if the tards didn't see this coming, well, then they deserved it.
All it would have taken was a little line or two stating there was a waiting period, etc...but even with that, they would have just paid the money in time so they could vote.
Awesome work MS. Don't let the tards from the OOS community try and keep you down!
for(;;)
{
printf("money buys influence\n");
}
I assume that HP voted YES because they voted YES in the recent US vote that took place on 08/24/2007, the results of which were YES 12, NO 3, ABSTAIN 1, which was enough to approve OOXML.
/. carried a story trumpeting the previous "NO" vote, but hasn't done a story on the more recent YES vote.
You can see how each party voted here:
US OOXML VOTE 08/24/2007
Notable YES votes include MS, HP, APPLE, INTEL, SONY.
Notable NO votes were IBM.
It's amusing that slashdot carried hugh headlines for the NO vote, but hasn't covered the YES vote at all (unless I just missed it).
BTW, the US YES vote is a reversal of the 08/10/2007 US vote that was YES 8, NO 7, ABSTAIN 1, which was not enough for approval (which led to premature celebration by IBM's allies):
US OOXML VOTE 08/10/2007
You can check the two links to see which parties flipped from NO to YES. The most notable is the DoD.
It's amusing that
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Be careful with that tone, dumbass astroturfer
Quoting the referred slashdot post by Hoppelainen:
So there is no problem here. These companies were already members of SIS, and they exercised their right to vote in that organization.
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Maybe it's time for another DOJ action.
But, probably not for another year, as long as Bush is pres.
Running with Linux for over 20 years!
Like IBM had any inclination to approve the MS standard. They were just beaten at their own game.
Unfortunately, this sort of thing highlights a general problem with quality control and standards: quality control usually happens by selecting people with too much time or companies with too much money, or people or companies who hope to benefit from participating in the standards process.
For example, companies like to add complicated features their products already have to standards to make it harder for others to implement.
Individuals like to make a name for themselves by drafting big and complicated sounding prose.
Note that in addition to ISO, ANSI, and ECMA, the JCP also has a bad case of this.
i find it interesting that so many folks (most of slashdot) ring the bell of "survival of the fittest" when it comes to their view of biology (specifically, macro evolution), but cry in pain when economic "survival of the fittest" plays out.
this appears to be cognitive dissonance at work.
they want A to be true, so they embrace "survival of the fittest."
They want B to be false, so they lament "survival of the fittest."
there is no room for morals in a "survival of the fittest" world. bill gates and company are the economically fittest and they kicked our collective behinds - as it should be in economic macro-evolution.
right?
right?
right?
since you all support a world where morals aren't nearly as important as being the "fittest" and maximizing your survivability, this went down EXACTLY as it should have gone down.
yes, bill gates and msft are the living epitome of economic "macro-evolution" in play.
the big eat the small. it is the very foundation of all living creatures and should be embraced whenever the small die off... they don't deserve to live...
right?
right?
right?
is it intellectually consistent to embrace survival of the fittest when you are the fittest, but wail and gnash teeth when the fittest kicks your behind and beats you into submission?
just curious.
for me, the utter lack of expected evidence revolving around macro evolution (not a single transitionary entity still alive today out of millions of opportunities - COME ON! there is no reasonable explanation that 100% extinction of all transitional entities need to have died off) indicates it just might not be as true as some over zealous folks portray it (agenda is ahead of the science).
in any case, i don't elevate survival of the fittest above morality, so i can make a morality play out of msft's shady tactics.
can you, though, and maintain intellectual credibility? everyone must decide for themselves.
For me, as a British network admin dealing with several OS's, this action by Microsoft exemplifies the arrogant and morally bankrupt American Corporation's attitude and method.
On a more reasoned level, how can a 'new' members of the Work Group be permitted to vote on any standards candidate when they have not participated in the research of that standard. Surely the rules would not permit that - like taking your driving test the first time you sit in a car. Not logical.
Oh, and by the way, can we have the names of these new members? We need to monitor their Working Group activity in the future and know of their products for purchase order reference.
It is stories like this that keep me as a vocal and vehement opponent to Microsoft. In my view, this business and its practices are examples for all that is wrong with software today.
2.5k times 20 companies makes 50k.
Thats pretty darn cheap for buying an entire countries vote on an international standard.
Scale that to the entire ISO and you can have anything you want bought through for a few million bucks.
Wow.
I would've thought that if anyone than the standard groups would know about building resilient systems.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
When I was a member of the ANSI C and C++ standards committees the rule was that you had to have attended two of the last three meetings to be able to vote. But that was ANSI, NOT the Swedish Standards Institute which will have its own rules that apparently (and unsurprisingly) are not the same as ANSI. Its position is then relayed to the ISO/IEC process and is then subject to the rules of procedure that apply there. Each national body is free to make up its own rules as long as it's happy to live by the outcome.
...Fuck Microsoft!
You can't have it both ways. If it's fine to join and vote against it, it's fine to jump in and vote for it. For Google to have clean hands, here, it would have needed to jump in and demand rules changes or a stay on the vote.
Arent swedish the people which brought us the Pryratbryan (however the heck its typed) ? one of the most liberal and advanced countries in the world ? how come did they become microsoft's bitch ?
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Let IBM and Sun and Red Hat and whomever else do the same at the next countries' votes.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Sadly, the fact that these people joined the discussion only *after* the debate on those technical merits was over only shows that this process has become nothing more than a high-school president election in a bad B-movie. Indeed, and I will go one further: the fact that there is so much controversy over the proposal should immediately tank it, regardless of who 'wins'. Standards are based on CONSENSUS, not mob rule. Given the evident controversy, the proposal clearly is not ready for standardization, let alone by a 'fast-track' process. If at some point, the political controversy dies down, ECMA-376 matures, and the industry shows some sings of consensus, let the proposal be resubmitted. But if there is a *hint* of impropriety in the process, tank it. It is better to have fewer better standards than more mediocre ones. There is no rush (to anyone but MS) to put an ISO imprimatur on ECMA-376. ISO typically sees its mandate as standardizing best-practice, not invention. ECMA-376 does not exist in the marketplace and has no history behind it. The arguments are largely mooted by an insistence that the proposal be allowed to mature (and the politics to settle) before being standardized. Given that ISO has an existing standard in this domain, it is hard to see how anyone is (legitimately) hurt by delay.
"So, there are about 2500 * 20 = 50000 reasons they should be allowed to vote."
Spending $50000 has probably saved M$ a lot more money (and time) they would have spent working on the changes other organisations wanted. (The OOXML ISO standardization documentation is said to be around 6000 pages long!)
Although I can only hope it costs them in the long run, as they have now shown one more very good example of how corrupt and arragant they are to others. Each move like this turns more people against them and less people trust them in the future.
As for the "standard", well that I suspect is now nothing of the sort. It just goes back to being another microsoft standard. Sad as it could have been good (and useful).
There are 10 kinds of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.
The voting procedure in Bulgaria is even worse. There is Bulgarian Institute for Standardization (BIS) that have different Technical Comitees (TC) in different fields. The TC in IT have voted against the promoted DIS 29500 for number of technical reasons but also because the proposed DIS 29500 doubles the functionality of an always existing standard (ISO 26300) and conflicts with a number of established others (XML,ISO 8601, ISO 639, ISO/IEC 10118-3 etc.). But in spite of that, the Institute, pushed mainly by the State IT Agency and pro-M$ parties have approved the DIS 29500 with some notes.
that the price for the pdf download of the specs of odf (ISO/IEC 26300:2006) is 342 CHF (14 MB) and for ooxml (ISO/IEC DIS 29500) is 96 CHF (42 MB)?
I challenge you, right now, to Google your country's ISO organisation contact details, or the global ISO details, or both. Then send them an email/phone call/letter telling them how the ISO is about to lose a lot of credibility if they don't halt the fast-track process while they carry out a review of the tactics Microsoft have used to subvert their standards.
It will take you ten minutes, and WILL make a difference. Unlike the ten minutes you'll otherwise spend reading more outraged comments on Slashdot.
Do as I do, AND as I say - I just sent my email. Go for it!
Do as you would be done to.
http://www.noooxml.org/petition
I find the astroturf movement interesting. All your comments on Slashdot appear to be about OOXML/ODF. That blog is apparently of someone banned from Groklaw for trolling, too, for that matter (well, it says "excessive commenting and bad language" but that pretty much says "troll" to me).
Now, I'm not logged in nor do I log in from work, but I know that normal people discuss more than one subject. I sure as hell do, even though I follow the OOXML story very closely. And I sure as hell haven't been banned from Groklaw, in spite of saying damn and hell and such a few times, so I don't think PJ is quite as strict as the blog you link to makes her sound, though I don't think she likes even those words, either. Now, she does have a policy about not letting folks astroturf and she does have a habit of looking up IPs...
As for your objection, the reason they can do that is because they represent IBM in Kenya and Germany. One person really can do that, and Microsoft is also a member of both of those standards bodies, they just apparently have more staff and more Microsoft Certified Gold Partners.
And come on? That's IBM joining under their own name, not hiding behind a group of Microsoft Certified Gold Partners. Yeah, some anti-OOXML people are waking up to this, but if you look at the numbers and the people who are joining, there's a tiny trickle of individual companies with no real connection vs. a torrent of Microsoft Certified Gold Partners. It's not even in the same league.
Is IBM stacking the deck? No, I don't think so. If they were, they're doing a damn poor job of it. In the last standards body I saw numbers for, there were maybe two new members who were against OOXML vs. something like a dozen for it.
But your post is right out of one of the Microsoft PR documents from the Comes v. Microsoft case: "Rule to live by: Never Lie", right under which it says "Be selective about which facts you emphasize."
How can those tags be "depreciated" in the first version of a NEW standard? "Non-issue" indeed.
> "other than when converting legacy documents"
Yeah, they're "depreciated" all right. Depreciated until they bite you in the ass. Why? Because "converted" legacy documents aren't and never will be. They become "new" legacy documents in a fancy OOXML wrapper you can't peel off. That really defeats the entire point of conversion.
> "because apps will HAVE to deal with them"
My but what a lot of things "depreciated" means? We HAVE to deal with "depreciated" things that should be converted into STANDARD markup that are defined for "completeness" even though the "standard" doesn't tell me WHAT THE HELL THEY MEAN? What kind of "completeness" is that!? What the hell kind of "depreciated" means that you HAVE to deal with it?
Did you even READ what you wrote? Yes, I know why they're in there. They're in there because of scary legacy code in Word that no one wants to screw with. The rest is BS used to justify, obfuscate and downplay the importance of that fact.
The "complete" spec may be 6,000+ pages, but what good is that if it leaves out important things and is full of total BS and worthless crap like that? Has anyone actually considered fixing the standard instead of cramming it down the ISO's throat?
Oh, right. It's not cost effective because it would affect the time to market. Silly me, dragging useless technical considerations into the discussion of a technical standard when the business reasons are all that really matter...
A simple fix:
Ban conflicts of interest. Microsoft and friends are pushing a standard, keep them out of it. It's nice to know america isn't the only country that's ethically bankrupt.
...I'm confused. Is money evil now or not?
/. moral shift.
Is a lassaize-faire approach, in which only the strong and worthy survive in or out this year?
Is it free-market devil-take-the-hindmost screw-everyone-but-me libertarian point of view the only answer or not?
I get SO lost with the
We should expect people to behave like scheming pricks when we're designing systems which confer influence; Like electoral systems, ISO standards etc. Because there are psychopaths, sociopaths and others with defective personalities out there who'll simply use them to their personal advantage.
To do otherwise is not just naive or unwise, it's downright stupid.
Deleted
Wait, is anyone actually planning on trying to implement this thing other than MS?
The entire point is so that MS can put the words "standard file format" and "XML" in the list of features, and help sell to governments and the like. This "standardization" has no other purpose, it's just a big distraction.
It's called pirate. It's spelled the same in English. How the f**k did you manage to mangle it that bad?
The following link is to groklaw.net and has info about the secret memo sent to Swedish partners of Microsoft. This is damning evidence.
0 70630660
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070829
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
its not the same. swedish spelling is different.
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I am so fucking tired of Bill Gates. Someone please shove a hot poker up his backside.
Piratbyrån - The Pirate Bureau
pirat - pirate
byrå - bureau
It's ovbioeusely much easier to spell in English.
The fact that OOXML is a hundred times worse does not make ODF a good standard.
Good point.
It *does* mean this whole OOXML thing is another method of Microsoft cramming their products down the collective throats of the world, though.
Then again, the world would have been better off if the word processor had never been invented.
Even better point.
Add "presentation software" to that list of things that should never have been invented.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.