GameStop Manager Suspended After "Games for Grades"

mikesd81 writes "A manager at a GameStop has been suspended for instituting a 'games for grades' policy. 'Brandon Scott says he started a unique new policy in his store to promote good grades in school but now his employer has sent him to detention for speaking out of turn. Scott says he's been suspended by GameStop in the wake of his unconventional "games for grades" policy at an Oak Cliff store.' Apparently, on his own, Scott decided to stop selling video games to any school-age customer unless an adult would vouch for the student's good grades."

Comments

Bad idea

[Fierythrasher]

I can understand giving kids a discount for good grades...had he done that and been suspended then that would have been wrong, but refusing to sell? That's just bad business.

Re:Bad idea

[toddbu]

Bad business, perhaps, but is it bad policy? I hear a lot of people complaining that corporate America is heartless and doesn't care, yet when one guy tries to do something that's right for the kids then he gets picked on. Why is it unreasonable for a company to say that they're unwilling to promote bad grades?

Re:Bad idea

[ultranova]

Bad business, perhaps, but is it bad policy? I hear a lot of people complaining that corporate America is heartless and doesn't care, yet when one guy tries to do something that's right for the kids then he gets picked on. Why is it unreasonable for a company to say that they're unwilling to promote bad grades?

And when your local grocery store decides that they won't sell to you unless you can show a written confirmation from your local church that you have been there the last Sunday, is that still okay ? After all, being devote fundamentalist Christian, the grocer is convinced that you'll burn in Hell unless you convert, so he's simply being caring and trying to do right for you.

There is a huge difference between caring about people and trying to force your will on them, no matter how benevolent you think you're being. And traditionally, resource starvation has been one of the most efficient ways of coercion, as any army laying siege can tell you. Such enforcement might seem like it's nothing now because it's directed against kids and an unimportant resource; but even kids are human beings and shouldn't be subjected to arbitrary use of power by anyone who cares to do so. Besides, it's best to nip these things in the bud.

That, by the way, is also where the libertarian concept of "only physical force is coercion" falls flat on its face: I can kill you without ever lifting a finger against you if I control some vital resource.

Re:Bad idea

[C0rinthian]

Store != Parent. It's not their job to tell the kid "No, you need to study!"

Re:Bad idea

[StikyPad]

I was going to moderate, but I think you might actually believe what you're saying. So assuming you're not trolling:

when your local grocery store decides that they won't sell to you unless you can show a written confirmation from your local church that you have been there the last Sunday, is that still okay ?

No. Religion is explicitly prohibited as a reason for discrimination. What the manager did was not at all unconstitutional. If it was in violation of anything, it was corporate policy.

There is a huge difference between caring about people and trying to force your will on them, no matter how benevolent you think you're being.

There's also a huge difference between forcing your will on someone and refusing to do business with them. Namely, the former is generally illegal (with the exception of parent-child relationships) while the latter is perfectly reasonable, provided your business isn't a government protected monopoly like power or water.

I can kill you without ever lifting a finger against you if I control some vital resource.

True, which is why vital resources are protected by the government. Video games hardly fall into that category. Your argument of food is hypothetically valid, though in practice no single entity controls distribution, nor is the prospective buyer prohibited from growing/hunting his own, or going to a soup kitchen, etc. Aside from that, using your influence to deliberately cause or contribute to the death of someone else is clearly a criminal act, as is knowingly failing to prevent the death or egregious harm of another in the absence of danger to self or others. It's really a stretch to compare a sales policy on video games to willful disregard for life.

Re:Bad idea

[StikyPad]

Sorry, in the fifth paragraph, "former" and "latter" should be switched.

Re:Bad idea

[Kortalh]

So, in other words, it was more efficient?

Re:Bad idea

[photomonkey]

This mentality goes directly against the sense of community that forms civilization.

Parents now, nor at any point throughout history, are not able to watch their children 24/7. Much in the way that animals play and socialize to learn how to fit into the pack (and hence survive), we have evolved as a social species for much the same purpose.

When I was a kid, if I was playing in a neighbor's yard uninvited, you bet I would be chased off by an angry property owner. Even more, I could expect the owner to have a talk with my mom or dad later on. When I was in high school, a bunch of my friends and I went swimming in a privately-owned pond one summer night. We had apparently awoken the guy who owned the pond, and he chased us off with a shotgun. He never shot it, and he never pointed it at anyone.

In those days, and they weren't THAT long ago, even if we had complained to the police about the old man and the shotgun, they would have laughed and asked us what the hell we were doing there anyway. Today, he would be in some pretty serious shit, despite doing nothing to harm anyone.

These days, we are so scared of repercussions, that we let kids get away with whatever they want. We let other adults get away with everything they want. Everybody's so willing to play the lawsuit lottery that we'd rather let the guy at the bar make inappropriate comments than to shove a beer bottle up his ass sideways.

We'd rather let kids run riot than to step up and place community limits on what they can get away with.

I'm certainly not suggesting that someone else should discipline my kids, but they can yell at them all they want if it's merited.

Re:Bad idea

[ranton]

All that said, discriminating against selling to age-challenged flunkies is probably legal though against store policy.

You could probably find someone in the NAACP that would argue that since inner city african american children are deprived of educational opportunities, they are more likely to get bad grades. So this policy is unfairly discriminating against African American kids.

--

The sort of customer GameStop Corp. wants

[ackthpt]

"So that's World or Mariocraft at $54.95, Halogen World at $54.95 and ECCH Sofa Soccer '08 at $54.95, with tax is um $202.45"

"Duh, how many twenties is that?"

"How many do you have, ah 12 or 13 should do."

"*drool* Dar, don't I get some change back?"

"Oh Certainly, let's see here's 1, 2, 3, say, what grade are you in?"

"Duh, 10."

"Ah, very good, where was I, oh yes, 10, 11, how old are you if you don't mind my asking?"

"Dur. I'm 16."

"Ah, I should have guessed, so let's see, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, there you go have a nice day! Enjoy your games!"

"Duh, oh boy will I! Buh bye!"

Local news on the fiasco

[RobertB-DC]

For some reason, Google News (and the original poster) are linking to an Austin TV station's copy of the story, which originated in Dallas -- site of the store and, oh yeah, GameStop's headquarters. Here are some links to the "breaking news story", as I'm sure Channel 8 is touting it:

Before (Sep 13): Store only sells video games to kids with good grades. Wow, great guy, good publicity!

After (Sep 14): GameStop manager suspended after 'games for grades' policy. Hey, bad boy, hurt sales!

Fortunately, I don't feel the need to stop in at GameStop anyway. Not when the Dallas area has independent stores like Game Trade, with a bigger selection, better prices, more knowledgable staff, and a LAN room in the back.

Re:Local news on the fiasco

[segoy]

Holy crap! It's the other person who bought Jyhad cards!

idiot

[Turn-X Alphonse]

So some idiot decides to abuse his power (for better or worse does not matter) and loses the company money? How is this remotely surprising? He's a bean counter, if he decides anything but which colour beans to count this week he gets kicked out for someone else.

Re:They can just say that they fired him for lack

[garcia]

They can just say that they fired him for lack of sales and be done with.

There's a high probability that they don't have to give him any reason why they let him go. Honestly, while this might be great and all in theory, I don't see why GameStop wouldn't act the way they did, it would be different if this guy owned his own store and was instituting his own policy. When you work for corporate America you follow the proper channels or you end up like this poor bastard.

Where's the story here?

[AuMatar]

Manager decides to create a new policy. The owners don't like it and discipline him. Totally within their rights. If the manager owned the store, he could do this. Since he doesn't, his boss makes the rules.

Now if he had made it a discount, it could have been a win-win. It would save the kid some money (and possibly be an incentive to work harder) and make good publicity for his store. But just stopping is bad business sense. The customer will just go elsewhere.

Re:Where's the story here?

[cduffy]

The story is that a policy that's popular within the community where it was implemented was terminated with prejudice by upper management.

It doesn't have to be a legal or ethical violation to be news.

Re:They can just say that they fired him for lack

[Doc Ruby]

Yeah, and that sucks.

Lesson

[Kohath]

The lesson here is: don't try to be someone's Mom unless you are his Mom.

I wish more people in our society would learn this lesson. I'm old enough to not need a Mom to tell me what to do or not to do. Kids, on the other hand, already have a Mom and don't really need 50 of them.

This guy is an idiot

[Ace905]

No matter what 'system' he came up with, he should be fired for putting another step in the middle of the "Hi I want to buy this", "Here you go" process.

If anybody thinks this guy is a good Samaritan or should be rewarded, you're living in your own little hippy infested lovey dovey moron world. He just made customers go another block to the 'other of a million' game stores and buy there for the same competitive price.

He also took away a pretty basic freedom / right from all of his younger customers. So maybe he's the one that needs to learn a lesson. I wish I lived close enough to refuse to buy anything from this store ever again. If the government instituted the same policy for merchants - there would be riots in the streets.

Re:This guy is an idiot

[cduffy]

He just made customers go another block to the 'other of a million' game stores and buy there for the same competitive price.

Some customers. Other customers (like parents, who tend to be the people bankrolling Christmas and birthday gifts) are liable to appreciate the move quite a bit. If (for the sake of an argument) he loses 100% of his non-parent sales but gets 1% of the parents in the Dallas area to go to his store when they want to buy a game as a gift for a child, that's a massive win: When he was "just another game store", there was no reason for people to select his store over others (with comparable pricing and selection) other than location. Making a policy and getting publicity that makes his store stand out, on the other hand, means people might be willing to drive further to get there, and distinguishes him from the competition. From a business perspective, it's potentially a great move.

He also took away a pretty basic freedom / right from all of his younger customers.

Beg your pardon? There's no right to be sold video games. If he were discriminating on the basis of being part of a protected class (age/race/disability/etc), that would be one thing -- but it's not the case here. Deciding you don't want your store to serve children with poor grades until they shape up is perfectly legitimate.

No.

[Enoxice]

He shouldn't have instituted this policy. The trick to business is to sell things to people that can buy said things, not to say "Sorry, kid, your money is no good here. We don't cater to no dumb people."

It's completely insane to deny a sale to anyone for any criteria other than that which makes them eligible to own (i.e. you can't buy this m-rated game because you are 4 years old, or you only have $7). I mean, that's like saying "Sorry, you can't buy this car because you work at McDonalds. I don't care if you can pay in full in cash right now, have great credit, etc, etc."

Having the opposite policy (as some seem to be suggesting) would have been equally as bad. A discount for good grades is just as discriminatory; "Sorry, Mr. Gates, we can't sell you this Toyota - you'll have to go to the Porche dealer down the street."

Re:No.

[Katmando911]

I don't know if it would have been bad to offer incentives for good grades. I remember when I was a kid, the local arcade would give you free tokens for good grades. That seemed to work out great for everyone.

Re:No.

[bigstrat2003]

Having the opposite policy (as some seem to be suggesting) would have been equally as bad. A discount for good grades is just as discriminatory; "Sorry, Mr. Gates, we can't sell you this Toyota - you'll have to go to the Porche dealer down the street." Huh? That's a terrible analogy, since giving someone a discount for good grades is a reward, not a restriction. It's more nearly analagous (though not completely) to credit scores: you get a better rate for having a better score. The reason why is different, but the effect is exactly the same.

GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Moryath]

Look, fools, you can't have it both ways. Either there are going to be standards, or there aren't. There's already a standard that you don't sell M-rated games to underage kids, this isn't any different.

If he's unwilling to sell games to kids who are flunking out of school? I TOTALLY LOVE THAT STAND. Seriously, think about it. We have major issues these days with schools being fucked up. If kids aren't making the grade, we may love games, but just letting them play the games is not going to teach them to take school (and work) seriously.

Fuck Gamestop for suspending him. They should be putting him on a pedestal and making this a nationwide policy.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Jartan]

If he's unwilling to sell games to kids who are flunking out of school? I TOTALLY LOVE THAT STAND. Seriously, think about it. We have major issues these days with schools being fucked up. If kids aren't making the grade, we may love games, but just letting them play the games is not going to teach them to take school (and work) seriously.

What's the cutoff though? I agree if someone is flunking and in danger of being held back a year then they shouldn't be playing games. But what about people who are barely passing? Are you willing to go so far as to let society dictate to them a change in lifestyle? Do you even know if the school that person is going to is properly testing the student?

When so many questions are being asked about the institutions supplying those grades (in the US) the idea seems dangerous. A lot of those kids who are barely passing are the smart ones because they aren't buying into the bullshit daycare system they've been shoved into.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[schnikies79]

My ass. My entire high school time was based on the point system. Everyone in the class could get an A and everyone could get an F.

No one used the curve. Nor did anyone in college.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[rainman_bc]

and since grades are set based on relative achievement No, grades are set based on achievement against a standard. Most schools don't grade on a curve. I used to have university profs say "everyone starts with an A, it's yours to lose".

Props to the Gamestop guy for trying to bring some morality to this industry.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[fishybell]

They should be putting him on a pedestal and making this a nationwide policy.

Because, after all, gamestop should be parenting rather than, oh, I don't know, the parents. If parents wants to let their kids play games all day instead of studying they're not exactly right, but more power to them. You can't force people to make the right desisions.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Great contribution!

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Bluesman]

After the village comes over my house at 4:00 AM to rock my screaming infant to sleep, it can make decisions about what's best for my child.

But not before.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Planesdragon]

Not everyone graduates highschool, By the time you're 20, if you haven't graduated highschool or gotten a GED, you're as far outside the norm of "everyone" as someone who's parents were filthy stinking rich.

and since grades are set based on relative achievement, a certain percentage of kids will always get bad grades Nope. Grades are based on absolute achievement -- otherwise they're meaningless. What backwards school did you go to?

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Please name one high school that reduces grades based on a curve. I write assessment software, and the only time users ever use the curve function is to raise the high score in the event that too many failed. Nobody ever uses it to lower scores; no parent would stand for it these days.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[JNighthawk]

I graduated high school with a 2.2 GPA. I *hated* class (but loved high school, since I got to hang out with my friends). Most of my classes were boring and slow, especially AP Comp. Sci. I played video games for *at least* 20-30 hours a week throughout high school.

Where am I now? Volition, Inc. I'm a game programmer.

Grades are bullshit, mostly. They're a measure of your desire to let the system mold you, your tolerance for menial busy-work, and your memorization skills. Not all classes are like that (very few at my college were, so I actually liked those classes and studied), but most public education is like that.

It's none of Gamestop's business what grades kids get. Leave the parenting to the parents.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Fian]

You are bang on the mark here.

Many students who would be failing the core curriculum - Maths, English, Science, Humanities would be the ones that excelled at Art, Music, Theatre, Manual arts (shop for those of you in the US).

Which subjects count in the "test" for good grades?

From my experience the entire education system places too much emphasis on test/exam results which are more a test of a students ability to memorize and regurgitate than on engagement in discussion, display of reasoning, assignments etc.

Having said that I do like the idea of discounts for achievement. Motivating kids to work hard for a reward seems to be lacking at the moment.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too!

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[The Living Fractal]

He wasn't forcing anyone to do anything. He was reserving his right to refuse business to anyone. He doesn't even need a reason.

And his manager exercised the right to suspend him without pay.

And the world spins on...

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[RobertM1968]

Really now, I think you are missing a very valid, important point this whole plan causes... PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT - the parents are forced to be involved in their kids' game-playing choices, as well as the fact their kids are getting good - or bad - grades is a reinforced memory. The fact that this store wont sell the kids games unless they are getting good grades should also thus (hopefully) prompt more parental involvement "Gee, that store manager was right... maybe I should look into other ways besides denying them the latest game to assist them in getting better grades"

Of course, the reality is probably that more parents, overburdened enough already just trying to make ends meet, will get less involved (or it wont change their involvement at all) under the false sense of security in the fact that "Gee, the store manager has already dealt with that issue"

Now, as for your change in lifestyle comment... I dont know about you, but if I was getting bad grades, and playing video games, I can guarantee you my parents would insist on a change in my lifestyle... (1) no games, (2) It would hurt sitting for at least a few days from the ass whooping I'd get. Am I condoning #2? No. (Though it was decent incentive for me to be an Honor Roll student)... but things that fit in the #1 category SHOULD be something considered by EVERY parent who wants to see their kids have a chance to succeed. Is school the be-all-end-all for having a successful life? NO... but it does help - in the very least, it opens up opportunities allowing the kid-turning-adult to choose when the time comes. Would you rather that, or a kid that wasnt motivated to do well in school who then complains the rest of his life that all he can be is a janitor? Being a janitor by choice is fine... not having a choice because when you were a kid, there was no incentive for good grades and behavior (and no punishment for bad) is pretty fucked up.

Your DayCare comment makes no sense... I doubt this story is about the guy not selling to kids in daycare. As for non-daycare school, I had some tough times because I was bored (thus didnt do my work, and had to struggle at the last minute to stay on the honor roll)... but I found that with the right motivation, that changed... got into AP classes, got more mentally challenged (pun possibly intended), and did far better in those classes than in the standard level classes.

Besides, it really shouldnt matter what SOCIETY does - it should really matter what is right - or wrong... not opinions, not faith, not "everyone does it".

For this guy to take such a stand, takes guts... funnily, if you go back in time a bit, substitute games with anything else that shouldnt be sold to a certain age, such as... cigarettes... you find something really interesting... he probably would be in the exact same situation had he not sold 17 year olds cigarettes because he didnt think he should be selling something to a kid who may not yet understand the risks they were undertaking... nowadays, if he DID sell those cigarettes, he'd get fined or worse... too much of a stink for the corporations to try to validate such sales. So, know you have a corporation looking for nothing more than making more money - at whatever legal expense, with no moral implications because of a society that doesnt care. And you apparently support that. Nice.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[tsm_sf]

Good for you, Mr. Exception. Mr. Rule is the guy filling your soft drink.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Hao Wu]

Everyone in the class could get an A and everyone could get an F.

For any one year, of course. But if everyone got an A, then the school would make next year's classes more difficult. They would keep doing that until the perfect balance of {"smart", "acceptable", "failures"} was achieved.

In the long run, grading must be a relative system.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[LoverOfJoy]

In my experience, people use the term "curve" in vastly different ways. I believe the "real" usage of a curve is when the distribution of scores are taken and only the top x% get As the next y% get Bs etc. all the way down to Fs so no matter how hard or easy a test is, someone is guaranteed to get an A and someone is guaranteed to get an F.

As far as I know, this is only done when there are a lot of people (enough to get a good distribution) and even then typically only in very demanding disciplines (like medical school).

But some teachers will talk about a curve when they really mean that if everyone gets question #17 wrong then everyone's score will go up by x%

Another way I've heard people use it is when a teacher says he'll shift the top score in the class to 100% and whatever he has to add to the score will then also be added to every other student. For instance, the smartest kid in the class got a 92%. Then everyone in the class gets +8% added to their score.

I've seen a lot of variants to these types of "curves" but I've never had a true curve like the one I first described in any of the three colleges I've attended. That's not to say that no teacher in any of the schools I attended ever used a curve...perhaps some did...but I never was in their class nor did I ever hear of a fellow student complaining about it (and I heard lots of students complaining about all kinds of things in their classes).

I would be really surprised to hear of a high school or middle school that actually brought a kids score down because of a curve. Have you ever heard of a kid getting an 85 on a test but got an F because he happened to be on the low end of the curve (everyone else scored higher)? In my experience, if you did the work and followed the directions you were pretty much guaranteed a B- or higher. Every time I got lower or any of the people I knew got lower, it was because they didn't do an assignment, turned things in late on a regular basis, or something similar.

I imagine parents would go ballistic if their kid got a C or less in a class simply because, while they did the work well, others did it better.

You posted as an AC but if you do happen to read this, how were curves calculated and used in your undergraduate classes (and what was your major)?

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[PunkOfLinux]

"Your DayCare comment makes no sense... I doubt this story is about the guy not selling to kids in daycare. As for non-daycare school, I had some tough times because I was bored (thus didnt do my work, and had to struggle at the last minute to stay on the honor roll)... but I found that with the right motivation, that changed... got into AP classes, got more mentally challenged (pun possibly intended), and did far better in those classes than in the standard level classes."

PLEASE tell me that was sarcasm. When he was talking about daycare, he WAS talking about everything from 3 years to high school graduation. I just graduated from high school, and it would seem that school only exists now to serve two purposes: 1) to indoctrinate kids with the belief that authority is beyond reproach and 2) to give kids a place to go for 7-8 hours a day.

Honestly, I was constantly harassed by the tougher kids. Whenever a teacher would see it and report it, the principal would always say "Oh, well, we can't fix him, so we won't even bother." I hated school. I hated the fact that the kid who copied his homework from someone else 2 minutes before class and then failed the test got the same grade as me, just because he did the homework. high school isn't about learning to think; now it's about rote memorization and busywork.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[DavidShor]

Yeah, you nailed it. I did very badly in high-school, and dropped out when I was 14. Though video games had very little to do with it, unless you count Slashdot and Wikipedia as games.

Anyway, I studied for some AP tests and audited college classes until I could get into a university as a math major. I'm 16 now, in my senior year in college as a math major.

So let me get to the root of my anger. If someone had tried to make me "get off my ass and get responsible" when I was a 14 year old based on my grades, they would have not known that I skipped my Algebra class to sneak into Calculus lectures at a nearby university, or that I poured over Physics and Economics textbooks at home instead of performing pointless county mandated busy work at home.

I invested a lot of thought into my choices, and if he has any advice I will be happy to take it into consideration. But I highly resent any attempt to actively discriminate against me and make my life more difficult solely on the basis of something that does not affect anyone else but me.

The grades of his customers are not the business of this Manager, and I'm glad he was suspended.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[MetaPhyzx]

You, are the exception to the rule (as was I). I saw this fella on CNN a few days ago, and his argument was that he was bothered by seeing kids come into his store who did not have basic reading skills, yet could tell you anything you wanted to know about the games. His policy was that he would not sell to a kid that was not passing in school, and if any kid got a slate of A's he would pay for a game out of his own pocket.

While he did overstep he did so out of a legitimate concern. Normally we see something like this in a "moral" light, for instance a pharmacist who refuses to sell the morning after pill, which is completely wrong.

This man's stance was a desire to see parents involved in what their children were doing, more so than any punishment.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[DavidShor]

"Anyone who supports the idea that SCHOOL COMES FIRST is alright in my book."

The idea that school comes first is laughable. Good grades in school are the most effective path to economic prosperity and happiness, but it is not the only path. School is not the goal in and of itself, having a happy and fulfilling life is. For some, school is not the most effective means of reaching this goal.

"Yes, not everyone graduates high school, but such people are generally LOSERS, destined to crappy jobs, and doomed to a life of ignorance and pushing French Fries."

I dropped out when I was 14, now I'm a math major in my senior year of college. I realize that I am atypical, but we should not deprive rights based on probability, it is a rather slippery slope.

"The idea that a certain percentage of kids will get bad grades, as part of the structure of the system, is bogus. If every kid gets 100% on every test, then they will get good grades. If a kid is not doing well on tests, they have far more important things to be doing than playing video games."

If every kid gets a 100% on a test, the test is meaningless. The relevant authorities will then renormalize the standards so that more capable kids will receive higher scores. Academic ability is normally distributed, so in any system where students with higher academic ability get higher scores, a certain percentage of kids will have lower scores than the average.

Sure they can renormalize it so that everyone receives a 90 %( and many schools do so), but this is irrelevant, employers and society will quickly adjust their expectation so that these higher grades will once again be considered "failing".

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Dolohov]

High school was never about learning to think. It's about keeping a whole lot of untrained kids out of the work force where they would drive down wages and push out older folks. For the brighter kids, it's also a holding pen until you're old enough for college.

You may not think so now, but you'll be glad later that school was like that in terms of authority. Yes, schools try to indoctrinate kids that way, but thankfully they do it BADLY. You've been blessed with a healthy skepticism and disrespect for authority that will hopefully serve you well through the rest of your life. It's one thing to get it from a cultural perspective, it's another to see first hand that many adults really don't know what they're doing, and can't always muddle through.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[n dot l]

Your DayCare comment makes no sense The comment makes perfect sense. It refers to the fact that public education in our society has almost nothing to do with education and everything to do with giving parents a place to park their kids while they go off to work.

If it were really about education then AP courses would be available everywhere. Also, the regular courses would be harder and students would graduate high school knowing the things we teach in first year university. It's not impossible - in fact it's how it's been done for years in Europe (though I hear Europe's been dumbing down as well), and Japan.

Instead we have a system (the majority of teachers, principals, school boards, regulatory agencies, etc) that doesn't give a shit what the students do so long as they sit still, play nice, and don't cause too much trouble. If that's not a day care I don't know what is.

Overall I agree, society should stand up for right and wrong, but this isn't the way to do it at all. Not letting kids buy games because they're failing is like attacking gays because straight people are divorcing in record numbers - it's shooting way off target at an only vaguely related "problem".

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[servognome]

Now, as for your change in lifestyle comment... I dont know about you, but if I was getting bad grades, and playing video games, I can guarantee you my parents would insist on a change in my lifestyle... (1) no games, (2) It would hurt sitting for at least a few days from the ass whooping I'd get.

There are parents who don't care about grades. Why should the values of others (good grades are important) be imposed on them?

Besides, it really shouldnt matter what SOCIETY does - it should really matter what is right - or wrong... not opinions, not faith, not "everyone does it".

"Right & wrong" are opinions of individuals and society.

For this guy to take such a stand, takes guts... funnily, if you go back in time a bit, substitute games with anything else that shouldnt be sold to a certain age, such as... cigarettes... you find something really interesting... he probably would be in the exact same situation had he not sold 17 year olds cigarettes because he didnt think he should be selling something to a kid who may not yet understand the risks they were undertaking.

It also takes guts for pharmacists to refuse to dispense the "morning after pill." Doesn't mean that society as a whole, or a company should support their unilateral imposition of values.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[Sigma 7]

Now, as for your change in lifestyle comment... I dont know about you, but if I was getting bad grades, and playing video games, I can guarantee you my parents would insist on a change in my lifestyle... (1) no games, That will not resolve the issue at hand. If a student "learns" an incorrect way to do math (e.g. thinks 7 + 3 = 73, or comes up with a bizarre and incorrect method to calculate the dot product), you want a tutor or some other method of learning. Not providing this is no different than asking Sisyphus to roll a boulder up a steep hill.

My marks suffered because I cannot write poetry (aside from cheating by writing prose, shaping the paragraph, and claiming it as a "modern poem".) To this date, no tactic I tried work - either I lack the innate ability to do so, or I was never taught any techniques in constructing poems. As a result, increasing the number of hours spent in attempting to write a real poem is increasing the number of hours that would otherwise be better spent working at McDonalds, or at least keeping up with what's going on in the world.

Would you rather that, or a kid that wasnt motivated to do well in school who then complains the rest of his life that all he can be is a janitor? In the North American education system, students are mostly taught by age groups rather than by experience or skill. This results in students that have already mastered course content being required to study what they already know - creating a dilemma between learning and get a bad mark, and drudging and getting a good mark. The smarter students get punished because their bad mark does not resemble their ability in a subject.

In most RPG games, you don't get level 99 characters by stomping on rats (or if you do, it will take an extra long time). Likewise, you don't progress in school if you constantly study things below your level.

For this guy to take such a stand, takes guts Of course it takes guts. You don't need them on the Internet, since you don't have to worry about your real-life reputation being tarnished. In this case, the guy completely ignores reality and assumes that games are only for people who get a high number on a piece of paper.

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[RingDev]

There are parents who don't care about grades. Why should the values of others (good grades are important) be imposed on them? ... "Right & wrong" are opinions of individuals and society. In most decently populated geographic areas in the US there are multiple video game stores, and the ease of purchasing online. If the parents don't care about their child's grades, they can either a) lie or b) let the kid buy the game elsewhere. This is a private company dealing with a private consumer, the is no state involvement and no constitutional issue. The medical field on the other hand has enough legislation wrapped around it that it takes the Supreme Court and teams of lawyers just to work around the tiniest issue.

-Rick

Re:GREAT Business, GREAT sense

[InsaneProcessor]

Who gave this moron mod points for interesting. What is "interesting" about calling high school a day care center. That is the flaw in much of our society. These statements are the biggest pile of crap I have read in ages.
I have two in high school and aside from learning math, English, history (yes event the correct history), science, engineering, and music; they are having fun at it. Sure, they admit it is work, but, they see the end goal of it.
My boys may be unique this way but it is the reason for high school.

Weird Angle

[CubeNudger]

Asshole store manager is denying citizens the right to buy things in his store (the original article I read about him had crazy racist overtones, by the way - didn't like "gang members with baggy pants" hanging out in his store, i.e. black people) and his corporate overlords thankfully stepped in and put a stop to the chicanery. I know they're a corporation and all, but props to Gamestop for doing the common sense thing.

Re:Weird Angle

[Mark_in_Brazil]

Um, I know this is Slashdot, but if you had bothered to RTFA or even just open the page, you might have noticed a photograph of Brandon Scott that appears there. I'm not an expert on racial definitions, but from the picture, it looks to me like Mr. Scott is black.

Re:Good for GameStop

[cduffy]

Sure, that's how many stores do operate, but why does a store have to operate that way? Read his account he turned down only about two dozen sales, and some of those kids came back and made purchases later after cleaning up their grades.

If he gets parents' support through his policies, that has potential to result in a net increase of sales -- two dozen transactions isn't that may in the larger scheme of things.

The real problem I see with this is 16-18 yr olds

[CrazyJim1]

Example: Someone has a car and good grades, but doesn't like to cart his mom with him. Result: No games for you!

Great idea, bad implementation

[Reason58]

Chuck E. Cheese used to have something very similar. You bring in your report card, and you would get free tokens for each good grade. When I read the title I thought this is what the manager was doing and thought it was a fantastic idea. After reading his negative-reinforcement approach, however, I agree fully with his dismissal.

Re:Great idea, bad implementation

[Anonymous Coward]

My thoughs exactly, very poor implementation here. The intent was to reward kids for getting good grades. The execution was to have a parent come in with the kid and vouch for him, otherwise no sale. So a straight A grade 10 student could walk in with his report card in hand, and would be refused sale. Meanwhile little Billy, who's not so good in school, simply has to convince his mom to come into the store and lie for him, and he gets service. It's really not the brightest way to do things.

What probably really happened though is he just wanted to kick certain cliental out of the store, so came up with this rule, then media picked it up and put a nice spin on it.

really?

[nobodyman]

Idiolistic? certainly. Misguided? probably. But why is he an idiot? He wanted to do have a positive effect on kids in a position that is generally associated with destroying our childrens minds (just ask Jack Thompson). Furhermore, he knew that he was probably going to get suspended and/or fired and was not surprised when it finally happened. So it's not as though he's shocked that he got fired.

Gamestop is famous (or infamous) for having generally odd store managers. You typically get the Simpsons Comic-Book Guy variety, the hyperactive upseller, or you get the nutjob that tells you that he spoke with the Bungie devs and that "Halo 3 is TOTALLY coming out on the Playstation 3 in Q4. You should really pre-order it". So a gamestop manager that wants my kids to have good grades is a welcome change.

  I think Gamestop was justified in firing the guy, but I applaud him for at least sparking a dialog on the issue. If GameStop is smart, they'd find some way to turn this into a promotional deal ($20 off with a straight-A report card etc., etc.).

Because it's not his place to do so

[Rix]

He hasn't the authority to be making those decisions. If the president of GameStop decided to do this it would be fine. When a peon goes behind the President's back and does it, it's a different story.

Not necessarily

[DogDude]

If he was the business owner, and he didn't have any franchise agreements that prevented him from doing so, he would be able to refuse to sell to anybody he'd like, so long as it wasn't discrimination. In fact, an advanced retailing technique is to be selective with customers, which usually in turn, drives up demand (think "Soup Nazi"). It's not always bad business to turn away customers, depending on the situation. In many cases, the best thing a business owner can do is to turn away certain customers. It's pretty common among good business owners, in fact.

He's an idiot because it's not his store

[Sycraft-fu]

A manager is a person hired to oversee operations for someone else. He doesn't own the store, he doesn't make the policies, he just runs it. If it was his store, great, but pulling that at a place you don't own could even get you sued for lost revenue in addition to fired.

Also it is stupid because it really isn't a store's job to play police over what people buy. If parents don't want their kids playing games, that is their responsibility. It isn't his responsibility to make that decision for them. Maybe a parent decides that Cs are good enough. Maybe their kid isn't all that bright and Cs are all they can do, and that's doing well for them and thus they are rewarded for it.

As I said: If you want to open a store based on this, go right ahead. However don't be surprised if you find your business suffers for it. If you choose to work for someone else as their representative, your duty is to do what they tell you. If their policy is "Sell to anyone who has the money," it is your duty to do that. You were not hired to play morality police, you were hired to do a job. If they had a policy prohibiting all sales to minors, it would be your duty to do that as well, even if it was costing them money.

I get real tired of people trying to play morality police with others. How about you decide how you and your family are going to live your lives, and I'll decide for me and mine?

Failed exam = free vodka

[eknagy]

Next to my Uni, there was a pub, where you got a free shot of vodka if you shown your index and there was a fresh "exam failed" mark in it.
Those were the days...

Faulty logic?

[Falcon_Delta00]

What's ridiculous about this policy is that it's a denial of access based on the principle that children with good grades should be allowed to play computer games, while those with bad grades shouldn't. What's the assumption that is being made here? Games are the cause of bad grades? OR playing games prevents children from getting good grades? It's true that games can be a huge waste of time, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should be linked to merit in the educational system. What if my kid isn't that smart and he gets C's whether he plays video games or not. Is this guy at the store going to prevent him from buying a vieo game?

Re:They can just say that they fired him for lack

[Doc Ruby]

Who's taking someone's money and just doing as they would? This story is about someone refusing to take kids money unless they were passing their classes.

Yeah, it's against the corporatist attitude that you went way overboard trying to defend. But it was an admirable act. Which is why that corporatism sucks.

Isn't it cool that the people defending corporatism aren't as smart as those who can see that humans are more important than money?

Bad rap

[rossz]

At the moment, you have to pass a test to graduate to prove you actually learned something. Most kids don't have any real comprehension that slacking off today is going to have dire consequences tomorrow. So this guy decides to get their attention through something they actually give a shit about, and everyone here on slashdot calls him an idiot.

"It's not his job to be those kids mom". Yep, you are right. So mom could lie and say he got good grades, or just buy her idiot son (with a promising future in the fast food service industry) the latest game. Problem solved.

I don't have a problem with what he was doing, though I think he would have been in a better position to offer discounts for good grades.

I also don't have a problem with certain types of games requiring an adult to purchase them. Again, it's not the store deciding if the kid gets the game or not. The parent will make the ultimate decision. Without the limitation, the parent doesn't get any say.

Oh, for you idiot teenagers with mod points today that will be modding me down as flamebait or a troll. Kiss my ass. You'll have kids one day. Your entire attitude will change.

Note to dad: Uhm, you remember when I was a teenager and was a complete asshole. I'm sorry about that. You were right.

Re:Good for GameStop

[digitalchinky]

So the whole 'manager' title is now no better than the lofty responsibilities associated with flipping burgers? You tell someone they are a manager, then you let them make decisions, the title deserves that respect. Seems to me that the glass towered retards at the top don't understand that a couple of phone calls might have solved this issue far better than suspending him and very possibly losing a crap load of sales. You might not like the guy's ideology, but you can bet the average middle class soccer mom cares far less about some random companies bottom line.

I'm well beyond 18-21 years of age, though I don't think what this guy did was something I would disapprove of. If I want my child to have a game, I can always go and buy it myself.

Invent a promo in your own business....

[dindi]

What is so surprising? Really.

I am sure the kids who buy the most are not the ones who have the best grades. Inventing something like this at someone else's store is not acceptable because it will kill sales.

He is not a marketing expert there and this special promo is definitely not a good promo to be honest.....

just my 2c ...

ps: yes I also felt like making a lot of changes ... free internet for nice chicks, let's not answer the phone if the boss is nasty, and pay 50% back to the customer in cash if our service sucks .... all kinds of nice ideas, which were all bad for the business .....

So how old was this educational marketing genius ? That will suck on his resume, unless his next application is in education...

Where's the grades for SEX initiative?

[blahplusplus]

I'm sure those interested (both boys and girls) would raise their marks if they could have sex with hot women and men...

Prostitution? Please... this is just business. I am such a capitalist, sometimes I scare myself.

Speaking seriously though, I can see things like Virginia tech not happening if guys had a sexual outlet to deal with stress. I've often wondered if we should legalize prostitution and have laws regarding involuntary celibacy (i.e. government sponsored sex, to keep men from turning into rapists / pedophiles)

Re:Where's the grades for SEX initiative?

[ElleyKitten]

The problem with legalizing prostitution is that it doesn't really help prostitutes. Most prostitution in an area that has legal prostitution is technically illegal, in the sense that it doesn't follow any of the laws because most places don't have the resources to regulate it and it isn't a priority to get those resources, so you still have just as many street prostitutes and sex trafficking in just as bad conditions. Even for the women working under legal conditions, the laws aren't made to protect them, they're made to protect their clients. Look at mandatory STD testing. That sounds good, right? But, it's something she could get for free at any Planned Parenthood, so instead of helping her it's just something she can worry about losing her job for. If we wanted to protect prostitutes, we'd test the men before they could see them so they wouldn't get the STDs in the first place, but I've never heard of any place doing that. Legalized prostitution also means that there's now a record that she was a prostitute, so she can't move on and forget about it, it's on her credit report under past jobs and sometimes there's even government databases other people can access. In Nevada, some cities have laws against prostitutes living there, so there's another thing infringing on her freedom that she wouldn't have had if she worked illegally. We think that legalizing prostitution would help them, but for the most part prostitutes don't want to deal with the hassles that brings.

There's also ways of making prostitution illegal without locking up prostitutes. In Sweden, the laws against prostitution effectively make pimping and being a john illegal, but the prostitutes themselves are not criminals and are given resources (drug treatment, job training) to help them out of it. They've significantly reduced the levels of prostitution and sex trafficking is almost nil, while the neighboring countries that have legal prostitution have huge problems with sex trafficking. It's not perfect, but it's done a lot of good.

!GREAT Business, !GREAT sense

[mobby_6kl]

This guy is a fucking moron. I mean the guy from TFA, not the parent poster. I'll refrain from insults for now although I completely disagree on all counts. To get this out of the way, let's ditch the ratings too, they're bullshit. This way there shouldn't be any confusion about standards.

First of all, declining to sell the games to customers on random basis (he defines what "good grades" are, doesn't he?) is not what he was supposed to do. If he thought this would be beneficial to the business, he should've talked to the actual owners. He didn't and he got in trouble.

Secondly, the reason schools are all fucked up is NOT video games. I repeat, video games are not the reason schools suck. I'm rather big on procrastination, and I don't need any games to avoid working on the thesis. Neither do these kids. They'll find something else to do, which would be inevitably more interesting than doing homework. There are many options available, one could argue on slashdot, get drunk with their underage friends, watch paint dry, or, hell, even read a book.

And finally, even if we ignore the above two points, his negative approach is still stupid. Positive reinforcement would've worked just as well if not much better, without attracting any of the criticism. Simply give kids discounts for good grades. I've seen this done in a local computer hardware store, and while the discount wasn't huge, it was a nice touch. Maybe make each subject graded above X points worth a 5pp discount, or something. The more good grades the kids have, the more games they can buy. Everybody wins.

So in conclusion, fuck that guy. I'm glad they put a stop to this retarded policy before it could spread anywhere.

Re:!GREAT Business, !GREAT sense

[forgotten_my_nick]

They should just make it illegal to sell computer games to anyone under the age of 18. That would stop a lot of messing around.

Almost ironic...

[mr_josh]

"I don't like your grades, you can't have a game!" "I don't like your business practice, you can't have a job!" There's always somebody one rung up the ladder from you.

my 2 cents

[neuro88]

Okay, flat out denying sales to kids, because of bad grades is a bad idea.

Offering a discount to kids with good grades is a good idea.

So far a lot of slashdotters have stated the first, and many have stated the 2nd as a good idea (I think it's probably a good idea myself).

But what I haven't really seen is that denying sales to kids with bad grades might be a bad idea,
because bad grades are not necessarily an indicator of playing too many video games or being lazy.
My grades in high school were often bad (and at times very bad though sometimes I got pretty good grades),
because I hated being there so much. I hated all the busy work. I wasn't learning anything interesting
(I wasn't learning much at all), I was just being told what to do. It wasn't until college that I finally
realized why I did so bad in high school. I did pretty well at the junior college, and I'm currently doing
well pretty well at the university. Both of which are far more difficult academically-wise (my high school
before it was shut down was one of the worst performing schools in San Francisco).

So yeh, giving a discount to kids with good grades while neither rewarding nor punishing the kids who
didn't get good grades would have been a much smarter route to go.

It takes a village to raise a child

[cherokee158]

Y'know, I think if someone conclusively proved video games caused global warming, the slashdot crowd would still be screaming about parental involvment while poo pooing any attempt by society to pry their bent little fingers from their joysticks.

And you guys wonder why many people think of the stuff as digital crack.

Face it, these things are going to be so immersive in less than twenty years that they'll have to be a controlled substance. Otherwise, when the apocalypse comes, no one is even going to notice until their controller stops working.

My take, FWIW

[argStyopa]

First, 2 points tactically:

1) From a pragmatic point of view: as a company, Gamestop should be free to sell to whomever they want. If the marketplace feels their decisions are arbitrary or unreasonable (for example if they were motivated by racism), the marketplace will tell Gamestop if this was a good idea or not - in a capitalist sense where good=profitable, not in a pure moral/ethical sense of "good".

2) From TFA this store manager made the choice himself, without even notifying Gamestop. Such is the life of a member of a franchise. If it was "Brandon Scott's Video Game Store" he could make these sorts of decisions and live with the consequences, but in this case he's a member of the 'Gamestop corporate identity' and thus beholden to them for decisions he makes which might impact the value of the brand name. Thus they have a right to make their OWN choice on whether they agree or not, whether they will support him or not, and whether he can continue, or not.

Then from a larger perspective:
I entirely agree with his position. He's a manager, and if he's responsible for his sales numbers, then he's culpable for the market consequences of his decision. I know that if he was in my area, I would immediately make his store my 'vendor of choice' for game purchases because I agree strongly with his policy. Others may not. At the end of the day, the dollars will decide if it was a good decision or bad decision, financially. But we cannot complain publicly about companies being 'faceless' and 'immoral' if we criticize them for occasionally TAKING a (to me, justifiable) moral stand, in this case regarding kids and games. His point holds: if you're not getting good grades, there are other things you should be spending your time on than GTA4.

Is that your parent's decision? Yes, it is. And if you don't like it, take your business elsewhere, buy your kid GTA4 and then you can b1tch all you want about how horrible the schools are because your precious little one is failing. But we'll all know who's really to blame, won't we?
(HINT: it isn't Mr. Scott.)

The guy is a genius

[plurgid]

Day after day, this guy has to sell games to little bastards who can barely read the package, and can't tell how much change they're owed.

How much money do you think a manager of a Game Stop makes?
I don't really know, but I'd venture to guess, magnitudes less than most of the IT professionals commenting in this thread.

What do you think the guy had to lose, really? Did he really think his corporate masters were going to stand for FEWER sales where they could have been MORE? Hell no!

This guy knew full well WTF he was doing, and it was absolutely brilliant.
He made his statement, and got his 15 minutes ... Game Stop will fire him, no doubt, but with any luck he'll land a sweet "gamer community correspondent" gig with CNN, or write a book or something.

If you've got to burn out of your just-barely-more-than-minimum-wage job, I can't think of a better way to do it, and with flourish, no less.

excellently played, sir. Bravo!

Re:MODULATE PARENT RATIO

[drakaan]

You know what? There's an old saying: "It takes a village to raise a child"

Fat jokes aside, that's substantially true. It seems to me that before everyone went lawsuit-happy, other adults that didn't even *know* a kid would tell them to stop doing something (assuming they were being miscreants), and maybe even drag them home by the ear to their parents.

Now, we have one of the very first responses to an article about a guy that was worried about kids wasting too much time on video games and not enough on homework displaying an attitude that suggests that he not only doesn't have children, but that he doesn't give a crap about how any prospective children he might have will do in school.

I love that idea...of course, if my kids aren't getting good grades, they're usually doing a lot of homework and complaining that dad gets to play video games, but they have to do homework...

It probably doesn't make good business sense, especially in this day and age, for a manager to try and make that kind of decision on his own, and I have no problem with GameStop for firing him...social engineering isn't his job. I get that. On the other hand, if said manager opened a similar store nearby on his own, and with the same policy, I'd probably shop there instead of GameStop.

If you think this is a reward or punishment, you're nuts. And "socialists" would have made a lot more sense than "communists" in your bold declaration.

Screw Gamestop

[Brew Bird]

I'm not buying there anymore.

Corporations claim to be all about profit. I can accept that. I WORK for a decent sized corp. But if you don't nurture and maintain the community your profiting from, before long there won't BE a community. This is an incredibly short sighted response. Most people understand you don't shat where you eat.

Those of you who want to whine about how 'it's the parents responsibility', go ahead. I happen to think this store manager is right on the money. He actually CARES about his customers, which is something that is sadly lacking at most layers of business these days.

That right there will get him more business and more REPEAT business than all the marketing dollars that trickle down to his store from corporate.

  I don't know where they learn it, but the lack of ethics, morality, or a sense of community consequences in the last 20 years or so of corporate history is just appalling. This is just one more example.