Germany Says Copying of DVDs, CDs Is Verboten

Billosaur writes "In what can only be seen as the opening salvo in an attempt to control what users can do with content, the German parliament has approved a controversial copyright law which will make it illegal to make copies of CDs and DVDs, even for personal use. The Bundesrat, the upper part of the German parliament, approved the legislation over the objections of consumer protection groups. The law is set to take effect in 2008, and covers CDs, DVDs, recordings from IPTV, and TV recordings." A few folks have noted that this story is incorrect. The original link seems to be down now anyway. Sorry.

Comments

In the words of a famous 'german'..

[Czar the Bizarre]

i see noooothing, i hear nooothing !!

Re:In the words of a famous 'german'..

[ShatteredArm]

I think auf Deutsch it would be, "I see nussing, I hear nussing!"

Better hurry then

[jtroutman]

That gives you three months to make all the copies you're going to need.

what about copying comments?

[stoolpigeon]

The author does not report the facts. The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies like Macrovision et al., something that has been illegal in the US for a decade. The law specifically allows users to make backups of DVD and CD movies, software and music and other digital content for their own archives and to use/play on alternate devices (i.e., ripping movies to your hard drive to watch on a DVR or other device, ripping music to play on an ipod or other device, etc.). These specifically-named consumer rights are actually broader than those granted by law to American consumers. I am not sure what the author relied upon for his translation of the law, but I can assure you that it does nothing like what he suggests.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Anonymous Coward]

How fucking dare you suggest that Zonk or his ass-buddy K Dawson might possibly have no clue what they are "editing"? Do you work for Microsoft or something?

Re:what about copying comments?

[ackthpt]

The author does not report the facts. The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies like Macrovision et al., something that has been illegal in the US for a decade. The law specifically allows users to make backups of DVD and CD movies, software and music and other digital content for their own archives and to use/play on alternate devices (i.e., ripping movies to your hard drive to watch on a DVR or other device, ripping music to play on an ipod or other device, etc.). These specifically-named consumer rights are actually broader than those granted by law to American consumers. I am not sure what the author relied upon for his translation of the law, but I can assure you that it does nothing like what he suggests.

Different countries, different customs. The British Constitution allowes Parliament (not the funk group) to change laws as it sees fit. Not so rigid as the U.S. Constitution.

But by your subject I thought this post was going to be about "Copying Comments", which, oh hold on, someone at the door...

[NO CARRIER]

Re:what about copying comments?

[LWATCDR]

"The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies like Macrovision et al.,"
So exactly how does one make a copy of a movie to their hard drive without circumventing De-CSS?
Seems like the DMCA to me.

Re:what about copying comments?

[stoolpigeon]

Actually - I wasn't suggesting that at all. This is a nice way to end the day - with a chuckle. I'm gonna go eat dinner and count the moments to tonight's Avatar episode.

Re:what about copying comments?

[darkvizier]

The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies like Macrovision et al., something that has been illegal in the US for a decade. Ah well that's good, because as stated previously it would be completely unenforceable unless they outlaw the possession of recordable media/recording devices. But, wait - It's still nearly impossible to enforce due to privacy laws (police can't just walk into a house to check if people are circumventing copy protection) and P2P sharing over the internet, which makes it very difficult to stop the distribution of circumvention software. Oh well... time for more inefficient use of tax dollars.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Anonymous Coward]

The author does not report the facts. The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies

And if someone were to hold a plastic bag over your head, it is not killing you, it disallows fresh air from reaching your lungs.

If you make all possible ways of achieving a task illegal, then it is illegal to achieve that task, no matter how you wish to play with your words.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Hatta]

These specifically-named consumer rights are actually broader than those granted by law to American consumers.

Just because it's not as harsh as the US's law doesn't mean it's not too harsh.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Sloppy]

Copy the key along with the cyphertext.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Hatta]

You can copy the encrypted .vob to your hard disk without circumventing CSS. You just can't view it.

Re:what about copying comments?

[0p7imu5_P2im3]

So that basically means that copying movies is legal in both countries (US and Germany). Of course this is assuming you are using media large enough to hold the original, which is not free, but cheap today.

Re:what about copying comments?

[whoever57]

Why not just copy the DVD bit-for-bit? That would not circumvent DeCSS and still in any player. You do not need to de-scramble to copy.

DVD burners cannot presently copy the keys that are required for the players to decrypt the data. The keys are on a different part of the disk. I seem to recall a story about changes to the DVD licenses that would allow burners to be sold that are capable of copying the keys.

Re:what about copying comments?

[dunkelfalke]

not all dvds are encrypted.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Technician]

So exactly how does one make a copy of a movie to their hard drive without circumventing De-CSS?

It is simple. Rip a track instead of copy the CD/DVD. Since you don't have the file structure and a bit for bit copy, you simply have a low quality facsimile. Last time I checked a low quality monochrome fax of a reduced size dollar bill (one sided) was not considered a counterfeit of the original. I would think this would apply to compressed reduced size rips for your iPod or Zen Video.

There is the possibility that an over ambitious law enforcement may try to get your low quality incomplete rip of the original to be classified as a counterfeit copy.

Re:what about copying comments?

[jotok]

When I converted my DVD collection to use with MythTV, I had to circumvent copy protection in numerous cases to get a final 2-hour high-quality (well, not too shabby) MPEG.

My other option was to simply make a 7-gig copy of the entire disc, which also preserves surround sound, menus, and so forth.

Re:what about copying comments?

[DaedalusHKX]

I actually lost any desire to waste time on pirating or even really purchasing that much "dvd content" years back.

Last DVD I burned or even "decrypted" was Gentoo 7.0 DVD... I even used that verboten technology "bittorent" to download it... aren't I the evil sophtwarez pirat3, eh? (For those of you not in the know, bittorent copies of Gentoo Linux are actually the only way the Gentoo foundation distributes their Linux DVDs.)

The irony is that the government clamped down on any form of usage, preservation, backup or , so I went and bought the books instead, and stopped wasting time with their movies. (I'm in the USA... I think we're ahead on "clampdown", Germany and the UK are only now catching up with the USA in draconian software / copyright law.) All that posturing your parliaments and that European Union did, was only intended to make Americans look worse, but "ya'll" caught up real quick, eh?

Re:what about copying comments?

[timmarhy]

what crack are you smoking? i've been able to make a copy of my dvd's for atleast the last 5 years.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Rutulian]

You just copy it to the hard disk. It will still be encrypted, but you can copy it. That's the funny thing about CSS. It is claimed to be for the prevention of piracy, but in fact it does no such thing. I can rip a thousand copies to my hard disk and distribute them to all my friends. All I need is a licensed player, like PowerDVD, to decrypt the stream and play it for me.

Re:what about copying comments?

[ceroklis]

This is wrong. What you describe is true for Blu -Ray and HD-DVD, not for DVD which could always be copied bit for bit (as long as you had a dual-layer burner if necessary).

Re:what about copying comments?

[Mister_IQ]

Thanks for a belly laugh. I read "(not the funk group)" and went off into my own little world of reverie, picturing a world where George Clinton made laws as he wanted...

Re:what about copying comments?

[bytesmythe]

It would probably be a lot like this:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29620

Re:what about copying comments?

[RMingin]

Unfortunately for your grand plan, reality conflicts.

Recordable DVDs have the area which would be used to store the CSS keys pre-burned to 000000000. This is *precisely* to keep the end user from making a bit-for-bit copy.

Furthermore, you can't make a bit-for-bit copy of even just the contents of the largest dual layer silvers. A dual layer silver can hold roughly 9GB, while a dual layer recordable maxes out at 8.5GB. It doesn't really do much to stop anyone from anything, but sometimes bit-for-bit is legal while a re-encode is not.

Laws sometimes suck.

Re:what about copying comments?

[hedwards]

Actually, that's the case in the US as well, it just requires a supermajority to do so. Otherwise the President is required to sign off on it. When it comes to larger changes the constitution can be changed at any time with a constitutional amendment. It is purposely designed to be unwieldy so that in times like now, it is far less convenient to revoke things like habeas corpus on the fly. And as such it requires the ratification process be upheld. It is unlikely indeed that we would have made it through the 2000 election scandal without a rigid model for these sorts of changes.

Trust me, if the UK had the population that the US does, and the people bickered with each other as much as we do, you'd need a more rigid process as well.

It should be noted however that in the case of our statute banning circumvention, that it isn't usual to get caught doing it, unless you're trying to distribute the works to other people. Even then the odds don't seem that bad.

The distribution of the software to perform the cracks has been unfettered for some time now, making the illegality of it somewhat of a moot point. They can't storm a persons hows for downloading the software, and unless one is uploading the media, they don't have proof that it is being distributed.

It is just one of those odd bits of law, as we were always allowed to have a backup, it was just that we had to keep the backup with the original, and not break the copy protection to do so.More than a little backwards really, but that's the way we roll here.

Re:what about copying comments?

[kavau]

I don't think the poster was condoning the law. And yes, it does suck... but it's also important to put it in perspective. It's no worse (but also not much better) than the USA's DMCA.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mbone]

In Germany, representatives of the state do indeed walk into people's houses to check on things like this. I have seen this with my own eyes; I was at home with some friends in Germany when a functionary in uniform knocked on the door, and proceeded to start poking around the house. They told me he was looking for unlicensed TV's and did this once a year or so.

Germany is not the USA, and the differences are not just the language and currency.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Mana Mana]

> bit for bit copy wha? pirates in asia long ago copied hollywood dvd's precisely doing bit-for-bit copying. and if i ascribe accurately, us law is moot on this form of copying. a fair use backup. descrambling and copying are two things. not one. # man 1 dd now mod me irrelevant.

Re:what about copying comments?

[MrFSL]

You don't need to circumvent De-CSS; De-CSS is the software to decrypt CSS the content scrambling system. You need to circumvent CSS.

Re:what about copying comments?

[whoever57]

not for DVD which could always be copied bit for bit (as long as you had a dual-layer burner if necessary).

Not according to this Google Answers page and several other pages that I found on the web.

From the page:
] 17.11.3 Content provider information
] These 28 672 bytes shall be set to all (00). Under no circumstance may data
] received from the host be recorded in this field. Circumvention: Recorders and
] recording drives shall be considered as circumvention devices when these are
] produced to record, or can easily be modified to record, in any manner, a
] user-defined number in this field.

Re:what about copying comments?

[whoever57]

what crack are you smoking? i've been able to make a copy of my dvd's for atleast the last 5 years.

So..... you have been making bit-for-bit copies of your DVD's before 9GB DVD-R/DVD+R's (DL) were available?

With a little research, I found links to answers and articles that clearly say that DVD burners are not supposed to write the keys onto a disk, so you can make a bit-for-bit copy, but that copy does not include the CSS keys, so your player will not play it. In order to use your bit-for-bit copies, you will have to rip them.

Re:what about copying comments?

[tedric]

with some friends in Germany when a functionary in uniform knocked on the door, and proceeded to start poking around the house That was probably an observer for the GEZ. They are in no way permitted to search your house and you don't have to let them in. Of course some (all?) of them try to appear as if they are in a somehow state official position.

Germany is not the USA, and the differences are not just the language and currency. I hear in the US you are allowed to shoot trespassers. As much as I'm against your lax weapon laws, those GEZ observers deserve a warning shot between they eyes.

Re:what about copying comments?

[name*censored*]

That's both crappy and stupid of them to do. Generally, most "pirates" are just people who are willing to cross into the legally grey zone of copying vs re-encoding if "no harm" was done (what's the harm in copying a dvd in one way which does work, if it's legal to do it another way which doesn't but which has the same end result?)

This also means that when people DO shrink the file, it is that much easier if they want to share the video over the internet/"schoolyard trading". It doesn't necessarily result in a loss of quality (MPEG2 is not exactly the most compressible codec compared to DivX/Xvid/other commonly playable files), so quality degradation is a non-issue.

In fact, the only thing "lost" is the menu (which is often not lost depending on encoding method, and if it is it can be easily appended to the new file, assuming that it was worth keeping - it rarely is). This is a good trade for more videos on the one disc imho. It also means that the annoying trailers can be removed (fortunately, they're stored in a separate PGC); all bad things for dvd producers.

I'd be willing to bet that the dvd shrinking process would be less developed/prevalent/user-friendly if they allowed bit-for-bit copying of the DVDs (which would benefit the dvd manufacturers, since people would buy more discs); all because people reason that it's OK to do something which is "the same" as something legal, and demand/supply took over.

Re:what about copying comments?

[MSZ]

Such equipment has been available for years. You probably didn't hear about it, because it costs on the order od 100x the price of regular burner and is not offered in the regular places. It's called DVD-Authoring recorder - the ones you buy for $29.95 at Walmart are DVD-General. Example: Pioneer DVR-S201.
DVD-A gear can prepare masters for pressing, including full 9GB capacity and CSS key block. If you use common DVD-G, it won't be able to do so - but of course it can prepare masters less than 8.5GB and CSS-less.

Re:what about copying comments?

[junglee_iitk]

Heh... I am in Stuttgart (Deutschland!) and yesterday my computer was confiscated because I downloaded OpenOffice 2.3 using BitTorrent.

I use opera and I did... my system administrator is very competent but unfortunately he didn't know how to disable torrent capabilities system-wide. They (some long word referring to teh-main-network-monitoring-team) caught the port being used for downloading.

Bad things happen :) I had around 6-7 GB of sceintific work but my machine is right now "frozen" and my professor cannot use it for the conference in Paris this monday. I had to hear "scheiße" uncountable times before he left my room in hurry.

Late evening I was told that my activities are being monitored (and will be). I didn't dare asking for how long. I hate those Turkish people who were caught making bombs. They ruin it for everyone! People try to convince me a number of times how "foreign" is better, but to tell you the truth, I miss having cheap un-monitored broadband connection of India than clean roads, train on-time and other expensive luxuries I do not use or care.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Ash Vince]

Here in Britain we also are required by law to have a TV license if you own anything that can pick up or record a TV signal. We also have some bunch of fuckwits who drive around in vans looking for unlicensed TV's. When I was a student I even had them turn up on my doorstep while I was watching TV.

The trick to dealing with them is to close the door as quickly and forcefully as possible (or not open it) then tell them they need a warrant, have no powers of entry or arrest. Then you tell them to fuck off and die since there is sweet FA they can do about it apart from come back later with a policeman. They will only get a policeman to accompany them on such a visit if they have proof you were watching TV last time they called.

They can supposedly obtain proof by picking up the output from a CRT using some sort of Van Eck device, but I know this doesn't include alot of projection TV's or TV tuner cards in a PC as we had both on at them time of their visit. I doubt it can pick up most plasma TV's either.

The main way they get suckers to pay is by requiring all retailers to pass on your details if you buy and TV equipment. If you pay cash they give you a form to fill out, if you pay on a card they do no need to as they just use your bank details to trace you.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Dude, your post doesn't make any sense. Who confiscated your machine?, why (apart from the BS about using BitTorrent)?, where do you work?, etc. These are crucial pieces of information that you didn't care to provide. Downloading stuff using BitTorrent is hardly illegal or "evil", as long as it's not warez. So my conclusion is that you have no clue about what you are talking about, you are trolling (most likely) OR need to take some classes on communicating with other human beings.

Re:what about copying comments?

[JSchoeck]

This law has actually been in effect for a few years already in Germany. I have no clue where this article comes from (TFA is not more than a white page right now). It's been illegal to circumvent copyright for a few years and personal copies (and a few to your friends and relatives) have always been allowed. Of course it's also kind of crap to formulate a law like this - but the music corporation lobby likes it.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Germany, representatives of the state do indeed walk into people's houses to check on things like this. I have seen this with my own eyes; I was at home with some friends in Germany when a functionary in uniform knocked on the door, and proceeded to start poking around the house. They told me he was looking for unlicensed TV's and did this once a year or so. This definitely is wrong.

In Germany, you indeed have to pay a fee for owning a TV or radio (which pays the public TV and radio stations). And there is an organisation called GEZ which is in the busines of bothering people who claim that they don't have a TV (and thus pay no fee). Apparently this includes the possibility that one day someone from GEZ stands in front of your door and says he wants to check whether your really have no TV.

But:
a) they are no "state representatives" (they are not working for a state organisation)
b) they have no uniform
c) they have no authority to enter your apartment without your consent (and although some of them appear to be lying bastards that claim they could get the police to grand them access to the appartment, they also have no legal basis to do that).

Re:what about copying comments?

[cortana]

AVATAR IS BACK!!?

Re:what about copying comments?

[dddno]

And if someone were to hold a plastic bag over your head, it is not killing you, it disallows fresh air from reaching your lungs.

If you make all possible ways of achieving a task illegal, then it is illegal to achieve that task, no matter how you wish to play with your words.

How can this be rated insightful? The comparison is totally invalid. It is NOT illegal to copy CDs/DVDs in Germany. You can still copy your own DVDs or unencrypted discs as much as you like. Technically it isn't even illegal to copy protected discs as long as you don't circumvent the protection mechanism in the process (sounds absurd, but what if a simple bit-by-bit copy were possible, where the content isn't actually decrypted?)

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Reading his Sig might help, not everyone speaks can speak/write perfect English/American. I am not a native speaker either.

Low language proficiency does not excuse inability to structure one's comments. His post was extremly sloppy and not thought through. Yes I know, this is Slashdot, so I am really barking up the wrong tree <grin>.

Re:what about copying comments?

[stoolpigeon]

It was good too. Not great - but nice setup.

Re:what about copying comments?

[Pofy]

But people were talking about copying the movies, not the keys (or the complete DVDs). It is trivial to copy the (encrypted) movies and there is no protection of it. What is protected is the ACCESS of the movie. Not all countries have added access as a right to copyright holders or something you cna't circumvent. It is not clear from the news or summary what is the case in Germany.

Re:what about copying comments?

[GPL Apostate]

We are not interested in your off-topic side rants about language. I recommend you find another forum to pollute with your off-topic rants. If you MUST make them, please oh please check that 'no karma' bonus box below the text entry box. Don't use your +1 for off topic rants. Like I will for this comment.

Re:what about copying comments?

[KDR_11k]

Wait, I thought that has been in place since shortly after the EUCD was issued and the copyright changes that followed it?

Re:what about copying comments?

[KDR_11k]

Depends, some media are shipped without any copy protection that needs circumvention or with a measure that's so ineffective it won't stop working if you just do a direct copy (hey, not your fault if it breaks) or is designed so it uses other means than the medium to limit installations (product activation, for example).

Re:what about copying comments?

[m2943]

It is NOT illegal to copy CDs/DVDs in Germany. You can still copy your own DVDs or unencrypted discs as much as you like.

This must be a sense of "copy" that I'm not familiar with.

• I take a DVD I buy at the store.
  
• I make a full copy to another DVD.
  
• There is a 99.9% probability I have broken German law. (The 0.1% is if the original DVD was not encrypted.)
  

In what sense is it not "illegal" to copy DVDs in Germany? In what sense can I copy them?

All I seem to be able to do is to make partial copies, those without the key, but a partial copy is not a copy. So, the best you can say is that German copyright law allows me to make partial copies, which is a useless right to have.

Re:what about copying comments?

[DaedalusHKX]

Did it occur to you that having already implied that he's not white/German (possibly Indian), and that he works in a facility doing some sort of research (possibly a university), and that his professor (most certainly a university) is giving some speech at a conference in Paris has already released too much information to those that might do him further harm (read - so called "authorities") in his neck of the woods?

To give names and specifics would further cement the ability of whatever bureau or employer that was to screw him over completely. He gave you a sample. That's all you need. Go collect more. Stop arguing with his spelling or grammar.

Re:what about copying comments?

[junglee_iitk]

I am not trolling. The information I gave is true. And yes, my English skills are poor :( That is why I am in Germany and not in USA (GRE was too tough for me... but one day I will prepare for it and hopefully do better).

But point out the grammatical mistakes. There is never a bad time to learn mistakes. (I am serious, as I was while posting previous comment.)

Re:what about copying comments?

[junglee_iitk]

Downloading stuff using BitTorrent is hardly illegal or "evil", as long as it's not warez.

That is the whole point of the post.

$ cat /etc/SuSE-release
openSUSE 10.2 (i586)
VERSION = 10.2

In other words, no warez.

Re:what about copying comments?

[dddno]

In what sense is it not "illegal" to copy DVDs in Germany? In what sense can I copy them?

In the sense that "copying" and "circumventing copy protection" are not synonymous. If you were able to make a bit-wise copy of an encrypted DVD (thus ending up with another encrypted DVD) you're not breaking the law. This sort of copy may not be currently possible due to technical limitations, but that doesn't mean it's inherently impossible.

Then, unencrypted DVDs may be as rare as you say (I doubt that somehow, but never mind), but they do exist, they are DVDs and copying them in whatever way is definitely not illegal.

Moreover, you could even copy a normal, encrypted DVD in a way similar to some HD-DVD ripping methods: by controlling a software player to display the DVD frame by frame, capturing and re-encoding every frame, then playing the audio tracks you want, capturing PCM from the soundcard etc. etc. Such a procedure would definitely be a pita compared to normal DVD-ripping, but at least it's not illegal.

All this is just theory. In practice, no one will give a damn.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

I just have trouble understanding why would German authorities care if someone was using BitTorrent, for whatever purpose. Whatever "bomb-making-civilian-assassinating" tools you can get from BitTorrent you can also get off HTTP/FTP. I might be naive, but I thought things like described in GPs post only happened in US and UK. If indeed Germany has fallen so low, well, that would make me quite sad.

Re:what about copying comments?

[labyrinth]

Reminds me of when President Clinton was visiting the Netherlands and (saxophonist) Hans Dulfer played at the reception. Afterwards in an interview he explained "when they asked me to play for Clinton, I assumed they meant George".

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

If you are indeed working at a top-secret mission-critical nuclear weapons facility, which is the only explanation for security people wanting to check on your computer, then your admin should be fired for not making the network secure enough.

My problem with your post was that you started to say how "bad" the system is, without giving us any of the context. If you are under NDA - don't talk about it at all. Me nor many other people, I am sure, don't want to read accusations of very serious crimes against democracy, unless you are capable to provide us with facts. I am sorry, if I came off as rude.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Please enlighten me, dear sir/madame, how is it off-topic to point out that a post that attempts to be "on-topic" doesn't provide any meaningful justification for its claim?

Leave your language-nazi-hate for language-nazis. For all other posts, try to understand what they are trying to say first. I did try to understand what the GP was saying, yet I failed. Too many emotions, too little facts.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

And, you have a point there about using +1 modifier, I will try to be more prudent when using it in the future.

Re:what about copying comments?

[DaedalusHKX]

Actually I have a friend researching fish breeding enhancements, whose IT departments are about as anal retentive (and incompetent) as those of various governments.

It has NOTHING to do with "top secret nuclear facility". I hate to tell you this, but if you're studying "the chance for testicular atrophiation in prairie dogs", there is a fair chance that A) your IT departments will still be idiots, B) terrorism or copyright infringement paranoia at your facility will STILL be off the wall/extreme, and C) you're still going to get screwed if so much as a peep of "unauthorized activity" is found coming from your computer/cubicle.

This is the world idiots have created, and slaves have accepted. Surprised?

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Surprised? Well, yeah, I am. I live in a Nordic country, retarded infringements on one's rights to be a free human being don't happen here too often. I mean, our society is based on efficiency, comfort and trust. I guess it's different elsewhere.

Re:what about copying comments?

[m2943]

If you were able to make a bit-wise copy of an encrypted DVD (thus ending up with another encrypted DVD) you're not breaking the law

You're also not copying "the DVD", since you're not copying the key, which is an essential part of the DVD. Copying the entire DVD is illegal because it involves copying the key.

This sort of copy may not be currently possible due to technical limitations, but that doesn't mean it's inherently impossible.

If you're trying to copy the keys, you're engaging in circumvention.

Moreover, you could even copy a normal, encrypted DVD in a way similar to some HD-DVD ripping methods: by controlling a software player to display the DVD frame by frame, [...] Such a procedure would definitely be a pita compared to normal DVD-ripping, but at least it's not illegal.

No, you cannot, because computer manufacturers have to disable screen capture during DVD playback, and both Microsoft and Apple do. If you try to work around that, it's circumvention, no matter how easy it may be.

Then, unencrypted DVDs may be as rare as you say (I doubt that somehow, but never mind), but they do exist, they are DVDs and copying them in whatever way is definitely not illegal.

Yes, copying some DVDs is legal. However, copying DVDs (in general) is not, because almost all DVDs cannot legally be copied by any means. Saying that people can legally copy DVDs is therefore a lie because they can't in general.

Re:what about copying comments?

[DaedalusHKX]

My friends who left Sweden (and one still stuck in Finland) gave me a different impression.

My acquaintances in those places were either government worshippers (and parasites) or they were on their way out of there.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

I am a tax-paying, working and studying man, and I think Finland totally rocks. But then again I am also a man of knowledge and learning. I am not an adventure seeker, nor someone who worships money.

Most of the people who dislike the Nordics are either:
1)dissatisfied with the climate
2)want their life to be fraught with risk and danger
3)money worshipers
4)can't blend into Nordic societies for cultural reasons (people here are pretty reserved, so hot-blooded people might feel out of place and lonely).

Overall, there are very good reasons why the Nordic countries consistently show to be among the top places to live on this planet in various polls and studies. Most of my friends, both Finnish and foreign, like Finland very much. Some of them have their private business, some are studying, and some are working hard.

Me and my friends seem to be in the majority, and we all have above-average intelligence and character. So I'd love to see some detailed reasons why "Sweden and Finland" suck so much.

Re:what about copying comments?

[DaedalusHKX]

So you say... others say the same. Those I've known personally say different.

And I place little value in polls... I've participated, until I saw several of them with very leading questions. The questions are geared to get a certain response from a certain demographic.

Similar to how CNN polls CONSISTENTLY show the opposite of what FOX News polls CONSISTENTLY show. The questions are geared to a certain demographic.

Asking 10000 Swedes one thing is different than asking 1000 Swedes that same thing. Picking who gets the polls and then cherrypicking the data isn't unheard of (in fact as far as I've heard, from mainstream and underground news, it is quite the opposite.)

I was going to move out there, but did my research on taxes, and found that I'd rather not partake of that little bowl of worms. My friends getting out of there helped cement that. If I were to still pick a place, it'd probably be Iceland.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who visited a girlfriend of his (long distance) in Canada. He was going to move out there from the USA, and then while she was boasting about how wonderful the place was, they ran into a homeless jobless bum right there in the middle of nowhere, Canada, Christmas EVE!! And in such a "safe and happy" country, they didn't even give the poor bastard a ride. Guess maybe Canada was more dangerous than his girlfriend was selling it to him (especially with the majority being defenseless and disarmed by choice/vote.) He sharpened his ears and paid attention, and realized all wasn't as well as they claim it is in the land of socialized medicine... (his girlfriend needed a diagnosis and possible treatment for a potentially life threatening situation... socialized medicine put her on a 9 month waiting list, and she saw little wrong with it other than "I can't believe this". To her it was still better than withholding the payment of any further taxes and using that money to pay for another doctor.) Guess some sheep love the shears.

I'm glad you like the Norse lands, personally I just like hunting trips out there (and I hear the women in Iceland are gorgeous, but I've had no other priority to head out there yet.)

Re:what about copying comments?

[junglee_iitk]

I am not working at top-secret something, and I have signed a contract which says, all the sceintific work I do at my place belongs to my place. I don't think that is an NDA, and I will discuss it when I add it to my resume.

And I am not accussing anyone of anything. I told you what happened. May be the guy telling me was being a jerk. May be the guy telling him something was a jerk. I don't know! I shared my experience. You are free to neglect it.

Re:what about copying comments?

[dddno]

You're also not copying "the DVD", since you're not copying the key, which is an essential part of the DVD. Copying the entire DVD is illegal because it involves copying the key.

No. Creating a bit-identical copy of a DVD is not in itself illegal, even if there is a (encrypted) disc key somewhere in the bitstream. The official DVD copy protection mechanism doesn't even try to stop bitwise copies from being made; it stops DVDs from being played in non-licenced devices/software players. The practical problem with making a bit-identical copy is that current DVD hardware doesn't permit reading the entire raw bitstream.

Decoding the data on a protected disc (to view the video) involves decryption. The keys required to decrypt the disc key must be stolen or determined by a crypto-attack, both of which counts as circumvention and is hence illegal.

No, you cannot, because computer manufacturers have to disable screen capture during DVD playback, and both Microsoft and Apple do. If you try to work around that, it's circumvention, no matter how easy it may be.

"Computer manufacturers", to begin with, can't "disable" anything related to screen-capture functionality. The party required to take protective measures is the maker of the player software, who, in order to be able to play DVDs legally, has to honour his agreements with the CCA.

"Screen capture" is not some sort of system function that you have to use in order to make a copy of what is displayed on your screen. In the end, it ist just the process of reading out video memory. This is nothing that requires "circumvention". At least in Germany circumvention means to work around "effective technical measures" (wirksame technische Maßnahmen). There are no such measures that would protect the bytes representing an image displayed on screen from being copied, hence doing so is not circumvention, just as re-recording the film off the screen with a camcorder isn't circumvention. This situation has often been debated in the case of re-recording protected audio.

Yes, copying some DVDs is legal. However, copying DVDs (in general) is not, because almost all DVDs cannot legally be copied by any means. Saying that people can legally copy DVDs is therefore a lie because they can't in general.

Saying that people can't legally copy DVDs is just as much of a lie by that standard, because they can copy some DVDs. You're considering "DVD" and "encrypted video DVD" to be synonymous, which wrong. There are DVD-Roms and unencrypted video discs. How many of them and how relevant you consider them to be is not the point here.

Re:what about copying comments?

[m2943]

Saying that people can't legally copy DVDs is just as much of a lie by that standard, because they can copy some DVDs.

Stop the semantic bullshitting. We are talking about whether you can go to the store, buy a DVD, and then legally make a useful, working copy of it for personal use. You cannot, and you know full well that you cannot.

All the other senses you imagine that sentence might have are irrelevant.

Re:what about copying comments?

[dddno]

Stop the semantic bullshitting. We are talking about whether you can go to the store, buy a DVD, and then legally make a useful, working copy of it for personal use. You cannot, and you know full well that you cannot.

We've now apparently left the path of politeness, so: bullshit. You can make a backup copy of a normal, encrypted video DVD, unless it is additionaly protected by some proprietary 3rd-party protection mechanism like those used for games. Again: the important point here is that you're not breaking the encryption while dumping the disc image, and that your copy is still encrypted. You can't legally rip the DVD using the standard ripper tools (->circumvention), ending up with a unencrypted/reencoded version of the contents. You can't legally play back either your original or backup with anything but licenced devices/software. This has been the state of things in Germany since about 2003.

The current modification of the law, which was the topic of this SD story, is chiefly about personal use of material obtained from "illegal" sources such as torrents or private DVD rips. Having been legal so far for personal use, it has now been made illegal. This has little to do with making backups of your own DVDs for your own personal use.

The very point was that the story turned the copyright law revision in germany into "copying DVDs now illegal in Germany", which is utter nonsense. Look here or here if you read German.

I'm not wasting any more time here, this is my last post on the topic.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Your original post seemed like drawing a picture of the police bursting in your computer lab and taking away your computer, because you were a terror suspect. Btw, who confiscated your computer - your boss's boss, or something?

After what you have additionally said about the situation, it sounds like there was some misunderstanding which was exacerbated by you not having a perfect command of German language and not having a clue about what is going on because of that. It also sounds like you have arrived to Western country just recently, are being stressed and afraid of everything, because it's new and different.

Overall, you made the situation sound like some evil Nazi German government takes away peoples' computers because they download open-source software using BitTorrent.

Re:what about copying comments?

[junglee_iitk]

The main point of the post was the use of BitTorrent and it being verboten, and had nothing to do with government. My computer was confiscated under the rules of University.

* And the whole talk was in English :)
* It's been more than a year since I came to Germany.
* The machine has been returned today.

Some of the gems of talk: "... I never install any program for bittorrent no MY machines, you are not allowed to install anything by yourself." (upon learning it Opera has bittorrent capabilities) "... this is a democratic country... people work very hard to acheive things.... this is not India or China..."

The faith you have in your system may not be unfounded. Just know one thing though: rights are for citizens. I am a sceintific worker and a student, with limited visa. And if I piss off any person, I WILL get deported, have no doubts. It is not like I have much money or other resources to fight myself through system, for good cause or bad.

Re:what about copying comments?

[junglee_iitk]

The main point of the post was the use of BitTorrent and it being verboten, and had nothing to do with government. My computer was confiscated under the rules of University.

* And the whole talk was in English :)
* It's been more than a year since I came to Germany.
* The machine has been returned today to me. With that I was given a paper which says: "use of ... facility for personal purposes is not allowed"

Some of the gems of talk: "... I never install any program for bittorrent on MY machines, you are not allowed to install anything by yourself." (upon learning Opera has bittorrent capabilities) "... this is a democratic country... people work very hard to acheive things.... this is not India or China... copyright infringement is 5 years of jail, so is the use of nuclear weapons..."

Everything is within rules. Everything is true.

The point is the use of BitTorrent for completely normal activity led to such hassle. It was ON-Topic. You misunderstood it and went to such lengths to prove how Germany is not Nazi. I have nothing against rules. I have everything against any rule that is bound to be broken (like copying DVDs and CDs).

****************
The faith you have in your system may not be unfounded. Just know one thing though: rights are for citizens. I am a sceintific worker and a student, with limited visa. And if I piss off any person, I WILL get deported, have no doubts. It is not like I have much money or other resources to fight myself through system, for good cause or bad.

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Thank you for taking time and explaining this all :) I wouldn't have gone to such a great length if you were as clear in your original post as you are in the one I am replying to.

Anyway, good luck, and I hope you get a permanent residence permit!

Re:what about copying comments?

[mahmud]

Also, I think that your superiors are incompetent and shouldn't work in anything related to IT. I hope some more knowledgeable people replace them in their jobs.

Re:what about copying comments?

[LWATCDR]

Okay...
My guess.
This gentleman was using a computer at his university. He used Opera which has a built in bit-torrent client to download OpenOffice. That was probably against the rules of the university. His workstation has been the university and he is now being investigated.
Many universities have rules about what software you are allowed to use and how you are allowed to use their network. Bit-torrent is often used for pirated material. It is also often used for things like OpenOffice and Linux distros however it does make your system act as a server which is considered a security issue.
I don't see what was so hard to understand.

Re:what about copying comments?

[RMingin]

Actually, the decryption of the movie for playback or copying is the part being attacked by IP laws everywhere. You can own a disc, and you can make copies of that disc. You can decrypt your original for playback only.

You can NOT, however, make an unencrypted copy of the movie. Also, an encrypted movie with no encryption keys on the disc is effectively unplayable.

You can't out-law the lawyers. They do this for a living.

Paging Trent Reznor

[ackthpt]

You have a calling.

Let businesses fight it out

[iamacat]

When large companies find that their IT departments can not stage ISOs for enterprise-wide deployment, they are going to fight this law much more effectively than any music enthusiasts could.

Re:Let businesses fight it out

[Shados]

Indeed. I can't beleive the people approving this have any experience in corporate environments... I mean, if you're really close minded and ONLY know about home use, it can semi sortoff make sense to say you HAVE to use the physical media and no copy... you're 1 person, 1 media...

But for a corporation? OH YES! I -REALLY- want the junior sysadmin running around with my multi-thousand dollar server software disks! YEEEEEEEEEES.

Re:Let businesses fight it out

[raddan]

No one is going to bother corporate IT people. They're not even on the RIAA/MPAA's radar, because they're copying software. And they're usually copying software that they explicitly have a license to copy for the entire organization, e.g., Windows. This is aimed directly at music and movie copying.

Re:Let businesses fight it out

[Draek]

in other words, yet another law looking to criminalize everyone to give the government and/or certain special businesses a "valid" reason to throw anyone whom they dislike in jail. Why am I not surprised? ohh yeah, since the DMCA came before, does the exact same thing, and even used the same method to do so.

Re:Let businesses fight it out

[jimicus]

Been on the catnip a bit too heavily? Software DVDs aren't CSS-protected. In fact, most enterprise software tends to follow the "activate as part of installation either using a license key, a separate piece of software to manage licenses or by phoning home" model rather than the "make the installation media hard to copy" model.

Re:Let businesses fight it out

[GPL Apostate]

In five simple words:

"No, it is not like that."

Try to figure out what you're ranting about better before you start the rant.

so what exactly are you getting ...

[vlad_petric]

with a CD/DVD purchase? It seems to me - a license to play the content, privately, for the lifetime of the physical medium.

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[Clay Pigeon -TPF-VS-]

For that much money it better be for MY lifetime.

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[idontgno]

For that much money it better be for MY lifetime.

Oh my dear GOD! Don't say stuff like that! Do you really think the media pigopolists would have any qualms about making that part of the license terms finite as well?

*AA: "Yup, lifetime license."
You: "Great, decades of enjoyment."
*AA: "No, 2 years."
You: "But I'll live longer than that!"
*AA: "No, you won't. We'll see to that."

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[rastoboy29]

Seems to me, a physical recording.  That's it.

LICENSE MY ASS.  SHOW ME THE CONTRACT.

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[Myopic]

Mods, you got it wrong. Parent is not funny, it's insightful. Plus, the GP doesn't address the question of buying content with no physical medium.

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[arkhan_jg]

Why would I need a licence? There's no ongoing service provided. It's a simple established principle in law that when a copy of a copyrighted work is sold, whether it's printed as words on paper or indentations in a circular piece of plastic, the doctrine of first sale applies and no further restrictions can be applied by the copyright holder post sale, other than those specifically disallowed by copyright and other laws.

I can't distribute copies to other people, I can't make public performances of it, I can't distribute information on how to circumvent the digital restrictions on it. Other than that (and a few other non-relevent moral laws), it's my property to do with as I wish. Unless I live in germany, of course.

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[gnasher719]

Just a complaint. At times, Slashdot is too stupid to figure out that I am logged in and post as "Anonymous Coward". And when you repost it after logging in, the bloody stupid software tells you "try to be more original...". So this rant is added to be sufficiently original to please some brain-damaged software.

I can't distribute copies to other people, I can't make public performances of it, I can't distribute information on how to circumvent the digital restrictions on it. Other than that (and a few other non-relevent moral laws), it's my property to do with as I wish. Unless I live in germany, of course. You are confusing TFA (and in this case, TFA stands for "the fucking article") with reality. The law that was actually passed is nothing like what the article describes.
By the way, German courts have repeatedly told record companies who wanted subpoenas to get the names of file sharers to fuck off.

Re:so what exactly are you getting ...

[KDR_11k]

You get a disc you can throw into some devices to make music come out of it. Or shredded CD, depending on the nature of the device. I don't recall buying any licenses.

Re:Not news.

[Fayn]

Fascism has nothing to do with an attempt to crack down on copyright violators. Although the methods that are being employed are, to say the least, draconian; it is not as if the act itself is being forbidden.

So sad.

[bi$hop]

I remember the good ol' days when copying of DVDs and CDs was just farhfegnugen in Germany. Now it's verboten? Next thing you know it will be gesundheit!

Re:So sad.

[gardyloo]

Yes, and it's making me all verklemmt. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Re:So sad.

[MrCopilot]

I remember the good ol' days when copying of DVDs and CDs was just farhfegnugen in Germany. Now it's verboten? Next thing you know it will be gesundheit!

Yes, and it's making me all verklemmt. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Should I call you a Krunkenvagon?

Re:Grammar "Nazi"

[Zatacka]

Actually, it is correct. Just think about "Copying is Verboten" (ignoring mixing of languages), and add "of DVDs, CDs".

Re:Not news.

[Beardo the Bearded]

I know, but there weren't any other comments yet and it was about Germany making draconian laws. I've been here for seven years and it's the closest I've come to the top... which used to be the bottom.

Oh well.

Re:Grammar "Nazi"

[jabberw0k]

Headline is correct as-is. "...copying...is verboten" is correct. The prepositional phrase "of DVDs (and) CDs" does not change the singular subject ("copying") into a plural; the verb ("is") must match its subject ("copying").

I guess I was wrong!

[bogaboga]

You see, I thought my German friends were more pragmatic than we Americans, but this law is making me review my attitude towards them. I personally doubt it will have any effect.

That's REALLY impressive!

[erroneus]

Clearly German legislators are less expensive than those of many other nations! I'll keep that in mind when I need to buy a new law! :)

Re:That's REALLY impressive!

[Tribbin]

Thanks for the tip.

Cheers,

Murphy

Re:That's REALLY impressive!

[erroneus]

The campaign contributions is just PART of the deal... the cushy jobs is American fare as well. Just look at how many times Dick Cheney has worked for Haliburton and Monsanto and back to the government again... back and fourth. And he's not the only one who has been playing those rotations either.

Yes, they can CLAIM that since they are not employed by those companies that there is no conflict of interest or any such incentive, but the practice of hiring career politicians immediately after their term is up or are otherwise compelled to leave their post [scandal? impeachment?] seems to happen a LOT more than anyone notices... it should DEFINITELY be brought up as a form of corruption though no one seems to identify it as such.

Good job

[OrangeTide]

Nice way to subvert the will of the majority and cater to a minority. Seems pretty obvious that the will of the German people was not served here.

what about slash-pork?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I am not sure what the author relied upon for his translation of the law, but I can assure you that it does nothing like what he suggests."

It's called, pushing the hot buttons. And since few RTFA or anything deeper than that. It slips by easier and easier. Kind of the slashdot version of slipping an item into a bill just before voting and hoping no one will notice. And much like that the consequences are hard to get rid of.

is this a Variety magazine story?

[davek]

variety.com is supposed to be the site for the magazine of the same name, but the site looks strictly amature. The entire article was also about 3 paragraphs long. Half the links on the page were broken, and now the article won't even come up anymore (18:12:48 ERROR 500: Internal Server Error.).

Germany enacts a law that turns a huge portion of their population into state criminals, and this is all we see? Did anyone check to make sure this is a real article?

Surprise! I support this law

[dada21]

Yes, your loving anarcho-capitalist, me, loudly pronounces his support of this great law.

It is my belief that the best way to get rid of government is to let it collapse on itself. We need more taxes, more laws, more regulations and more actions to be considered crimes -- at all levels of government. Not only would all this new legislation and income create a more massive bureaucracy that will just stifle its ability to do anything right, but it will help open the eyes of every being in seeing what a waste government is.

I love adding new non-violent action laws to the books: all it does is make the black market that much more fruitful for those willing to take the risk. Why just stop at copying the CD and DVD to another CD or DVD? Let's make it illegal to copy ANY information off of a CD or DVD into any other form, including RAM, so that just playing it is wrong.

"Did you see that new movie? It's gorgeous, bright and shiny, and the case is really nice!"

"What's the plot?"

"I don't know, I didn't want to risk playing it. But the DVD is nice!!!"

Re:Surprise! I support this law

[raddan]

Anarcho-capitalism really is a central piece of your identity isn't it? Reminds me of that Python skit... oh yeah, this one!

Re:Not news.

[Dunbal]

Fascism has nothing to do with an attempt to crack down on copyright violators.

      No, but it does have a LOT to do with telling you what you can and can't do in the privacy of your own home.

Re:Not news.

[Maxo-Texas]

Actually there is a pretty strong relation going back to WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian: corporativismo) refers to a political or economic system in which power is given to civic assemblies that represent economic, industrial, agrarian, social, cultural, and professional groups. ...
Italian fascist corporativism
In Italian Fascism, this non-elected form of state "officializing" of every interest into the state was professed to better circumvent the marginalization of singular interests (as would allegedly happen by the unilateral end condition inherent in the democratic voting process). Corporativism would instead better recognize

Another completely misleading article

[gnasher719]

For some more serious information check out this article:

http://www.goethe.de/wis/buv/thm/urh/en2550214.htm

Very quick summary: Yes, you can make copies of your CDs for private use. There are things that you are not allowed to copy, but they are not CDs.

Obviously it is now up to consumers not to buy music in a format that doesn't allow copying.

Re:Another completely misleading article

[wol]

Critical bit from that article:

To be sure, copying for private use is still permitted - which is, after all, the reason for the flat-rate levy payable on certain devices. However, if special anti-copying technology has been employed to protect the medium, e.g. a music CD, such protection may not be circumvented by any means. The Ministry of Justice has given clear expression to this prohibition: "There is no 'right of private copying' at the expense of rights holders". This also means that consumers who download a file from the Internet must first check whether the offer is legal. How users are supposed to do so remains unclear, says the National Federation of Consumer Organisations.

Re:Another completely misleading article

[Randseed]

The Ministry of Justice has given clear expression to this prohibition: "There is no 'right of private copying' at the expense of rights holders".

In other news, the Ministry of Truth has declared that Ignorance Is Strength. An announcement is expected from the Ministry of Love tomorrow explaining the penalties for those who copy. The Junior Anti-Sex League has, meanwhile, expressed concern that this act may decrease dissemination of pornography, thus leading to more actual sex.

Re:Another completely misleading article

[pimpimpim]

Sorry, but anti-copying technology means anti-listening technology, since these two processes are in effect the same. Also note that those are the CDs you won't be able to play on your pc or car stereo because, in effect, these CDs are not complying to the CD standards made in the 80's. So you wasted your money on a product that doesn't offer what it said it would (be a medium you can use to play music with on CD players). Thank you very much German lawmakers! I'm living in Germany and was sort of proud of it even, being a bit of Linux heaven, but 2007 has been a very bad year for technology in Germany, most of it thanks to minister of interior Schäuble, I have the impression. The new ridiculous laws ('anti-hacking') that have been passed have everything in them to give Germany a big push backwards in time as far as technology is concerned. I wonder why they spend money trying to push themselves forward if they make laws bringing them backward at the same time. Why don't they sell out all technology to China directly. All I can say is, I didn't vote for these people and wouldn't if I could. I hope it gets better because there aren't many countries left with reasonable technology legislation.

Re:Another completely misleading article

[RAMMS EIN]

``To be sure, copying for private use is still permitted - which is, after all, the reason for the flat-rate levy payable on certain devices. However, if special anti-copying technology has been employed to protect the medium, e.g. a music CD, such protection may not be circumvented by any means. The Ministry of Justice has given clear expression to this prohibition: "There is no 'right of private copying' at the expense of rights holders". This also means that consumers who download a file from the Internet must first check whether the offer is legal. How users are supposed to do so remains unclear, says the National Federation of Consumer Organisations.''

Comparing this to the Dutch (from the Netherlands, a small country that borders Germany in the west) equivalent of copyright law, I get the following.

1. Copying for personal use is permitted by basic copyright law, which, in the Netherlands, has been in place for a pretty long time. I imagine the same to be true in Germany.
2. Not allowing the circumvention of "technical measures" is from the EUCD, the EU equivalent of the DMCA. Both Germany and the Netherlands have this.
3. In the Netherlands at least, downloading a file from the Internet constitutes making a copy for personal use, which is expressly permitted as per 1. (That is, for anything that is on media, except software. Books don't apply as thy aren't on media, music does, and software doesn't, because it is explicitly mentioned as an exception.)

I would be mildly surprised if 3 were different in Germany, i.e. you were not allowed to download music files under all circumstances. What is illegal, in the Netherlands, is circumventing the DRM. Anything that involves that (making a copy of th contents of the DVD, playing the DVD) therefore cannot be done legally. Downloading a file from the Internet does not involve curcimventing DRM, so isn't made ilelgal by tha.t

Democracy

[Tribbin]

In a democracy, shouldn't we, the people, be deciding if we are allowed to copy anything we want?

Re:Democracy

[wytcld]

shouldn't we, the people, be deciding if we are allowed to copy anything we want?

Surely private enterprise can invent chip implants that scramble experience if you don't have the keys. The same sort of noise-cancellation currently used for headphones, why not tie it directly into the nerves from the ears, or the optics? There's something quite wonderful about the notion of being surrounded by an invisible reality only those with the special keys can see. That's the premise of just about every religion and mystic cult. Now the wonders of technology can make this real for us, soon.

The current rights industry is focused all on the wrong place. It's not about the copies; it's about the original experiences. Let them copy anything they've the keys to experience, nothing more and nothing less. That they have to pay something for the original, well, nobody lives for free. That they can't share freely with their friends, well, that's what subjective experience has always been all about. That makes us special, individuals.

Re:Democracy

[muuh-gnu]

How exactly does voting for several corrupt politicians you have _zero_ influence on, instaed of having one god emperor make the system a "democracy"? If I cant vote on factual issues directly, cant in any meaningful way influence my so called "representative" after I voted for him and he is in _no way_ obliged to not change his election pledges, then I just dont consider myself as a part of the demos also having a part of the kratos. A system does not begin to be a democracy the moment it starts to call itself one. Actually, the really significant "voting" (the one with your wallet, but only if its chock-full) seems always to begin after the "democratic elections", after the god emperors have been appointed for the next several years and ditched any influence by the demos.

So to give an answer to your question, we, the people, would be able do decide anything, if we would live in a democracy.

Re:Democracy

[Kelz]

Analogy to prove that your line of thinking is wrong:

In a democracy, shouldn't we, the people, be deciding if we are allowed to kill (Insert_Minority_Here) because they're colored differently?

Extreme example (ya think??), but please, theres so many stupid comments going on any time someone brings up copyright protections they need to be shot down.

Re:Democracy

[SpaghettiPattern]

In a democracy, shouldn't we, the people, be deciding if we are allowed to copy anything we want?

No. In a democracy you elect representatives and those decide for you. If all representatives are against your opinions that's it. If you still want your opinions in decision making you'll have to start your own party. Then, when you gain ground, the parties in power will change policy whilst still have all other things in place you haven't thought of yet. So your little effort will vanish in a New York second. Unless you are very, very tallented.

Re:Democracy

[hugo_goedel]

There are several definitions of "democracy". The simplest just means "rule by the people". However, all really meaningful definitions also comprise equality before the law and unalienable human rights, such as the right to life and freedom of expression.
Your analogy doesn't work with those definitions, as it describes a case in which both human rights and equality before the law are violated. (And even intentionally so.)

The grand-parent is actually right: As long as equality and human rights are respected, the will of the majority of the people should be decisive for how affairs get handled in a democratic society. This would include the handling of so-called intellectual property. (I.e. whether society accepts that concept at all and if it does, how far it should reach and how it should be enforced.)

Re:Democracy

[hugo_goedel]

No. In a democracy you elect representatives and those decide for you. If all representatives are against your opinions that's it. By no means does "democracy" necessarily mean "parliamentary democracy" or "representative democracy". Of course, for practical reasons large democratic societies are normally organized that way. But even so, if the elected representatives consistently and notoriously disregard the will of the people, the people should sooner or later notice and should not re-elect those representatives. Chances are that the successors show more respect for the people. There's one big caveat however: all this can only work if people get enough education and if information can freely disseminate. If all media are controlled by a few private entities with their own agendas then the people can not even notice that it is being betrayed.

Re:Democracy

[RealBorg]

It would be difficult and expensive to bribe the geral public in order to pass such laws. That is why we live in so called "representative democracy" where we have to elect the very people that sell our interests to the best bidding industry.

OK, so what's the *best* country?

[DoofusOfDeath]

We know that America is probably the worst country for digital freedoms, and it sounds like Germany is in the running for second-worst.

Which countries are the *most* permissive in terms of fair use, lack of software patents, etc.?

(And I don't mean which countries don't enforce their laws. I mean which countries actually have laws offer the most freedom for citizens.)

Re:OK, so what's the *best* country?

[BlueParrot]

(And I don't mean which countries don't enforce their laws. I mean which countries actually have laws offer the most freedom for citizens.)

By that metric the US would be very permissive given the constitution. You can't just look at the letter of the law, at the end of the day the courts will have to interpret it, so it is really a matter of how things actually work out in practice. In principle US citizens have more legally recognised rights than we have in Sweden, in practice you have to consider how authorities actually operate. All kinds of things play into that, including things like who can afford a lawyer. Also, two laws with the exact same wording could have very different meanings in different countries, because things like "proven", "liable" and "forbidden" mean different things in different contexts.

ExactAudioCopy

[jgarra23]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the creator of EAC from Germany? I remember when he removed the native TOC read functionality from EAC due to some weirdo law along these lines. I wonder if he'll continue development since he seems to err on the side of legal-safety in these matters.

Enforcement?

[mark-t]

If its for personal use, how are they ever going to even know that it happened?

Re:Enforcement?

[knewter]

Pulled over in a car while playing a burned music CD? That took a lot of thought, thanks.

Re:Enforcement?

[Zorque]

"License and registration and the CD in your dash, please" doesn't sound all that plausible to me for some reason.

Re:Enforcement?

[knewter]

Because no police officer, nowhere, has ever decided to be a dick...

Re:Enforcement?

[muuh-gnu]

So what? Being a dick or not, he has no way to decide if the content of the CD is legally obtained or not. And since he is most probably not the copyright holder of the music on the CD, he has no right to stop you from using it. Applying your logic he also at any given moment could ask you for a payment voucher for your pants, to go sure they are not shoplifted. (Or, I and i personally would like to get stopped for THAT, he could ask you where the CD with the sources is, if you happen to have a data CD with GPL'd binaries on it.)

Re:Enforcement?

[mark-t]

And since he is most probably not the copyright holder of the music on the CD, he has no right to stop you from using it

He would if if you admitted what it was and that you made the copy without permission.

Re:Enforcement?

[knewter]

Here's a hint. If the CD says 'The Beatles,' he'll know now that that's something he can be a dick to you about. I'm not suggesting he'd be tracking copyright on code. I *am* suggesting that every cop I've known would be a dick about anything they could be a dick about, and that's a pretty easy one.

The law was copying CDs with copy protection. One would think a quick search that turned up 200 burned CDs could lead to being detained in jail while they sorted that out. It's actually really simple logic, anyway.

Assertion) Cops are dicks.
Given) Copying CDs is now illegal.
Theorem) Cops will be dicks about your Britney Spears collection.

What does it mean to "own" media?

[posterlogo]

Do we license it?

Do we own the physical CD/DVD, but not what's on it?

If we own the right to use the media for personal use, then we should get additional copies of the physical media at no (or very little) charge if it becomes damaged.

But if we own that CD/DVD, then we should be able to make our own backups, at the least.

The content producers want it both ways. They say that we don't really "own" the content, just the right to access it, but what if you can't access that content? For example, no more working record players or tape decks in the world. Then we should get the updated version for free right? If we bought the right to access that content. If not, then they should just fuck off and let us acquire or reacquire content we already paid for.

Re:What does it mean to "own" media?

[BlueStrat]

"The content producers want it both ways."

Of course they do, silly! Call girls, cocaine, Ferraris, yachts, mansions, and politicians haven't gotten any cheaper, you know!

Strat

Re:What does it mean to "own" media?

[ogrizzo]

If it ain't signed it's not a contract, at least in the civilized world. Furthermore, if a contract has provisions which are particularly unfair, a signature is not enough: e.g., in Italy you have to sign twice, in France you have to write by hand "read and approved."

Re:What does it mean to "own" media?

[SeanAhern]

Just like books.

Re:We can vote - with our money.

[allcar]

We simply have to stop buying anything with copy protection. DRM is not immoral, it's just aimed at stupid people. If people stop being stupid by buying DRM content it will go away.

CDs

[Gr8Apes]

But there's not a "CD" made that has DRM nor anti-copying technologies on it. They only have "flaws", like scratches, that need correction.

Re:CDs

[Gr8Apes]

But I'm not correcting them, I'm ignoring them....

Re:Where are all the Europe defenders?

[timmarhy]

TFA is nothing but a troll like your post. misleading headline.

Quick ....

[xednieht]

name the first great German movie that comes to mind....

Das ist vat eye thought... what are they going to copy hehe.

Re:Quick ....

[domatic]

Das Boot.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082096/

Re:Quick ....

[Deadstick]

Das schreckliche Mädchen is right up there, too...

rj

Re:Quick ....

[dmizer]

Lola Rennt

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0130827/

Re:Grammar "Nazi"

[rection47]

Try to know the grammar of your own language before blaming it on a translation, it is the copying that if is verboten not the CDs and DVDs that are. So you think that people should say "copying are illegal!!!!"? Try and read it a little more in depth before being a grammar nazi. no pun intended.

Turn it around!

[El Icaro]

This could be an absolutely retarded thing I'm saying, but, couldn't we turn the public on to them?

Say something like, for example, that this will enable paedophiles to hide their files. Independent groups won't be able to verify their contents and police will need court orders (or whatever kind of official permission there is there to enable police to conduct searches) and that it will radically slow down any important investigations...

I don't know how, but I feel it's time to use their own manipulative weapons against them. Remember, it doesn't have to be logical or completely sane, just "emotional" enough to convince the impulsive masses.

Would something like this be possible?

Re:Grammar "Nazi"

[adminstring]

Some of us learn grammar from video games...

All your base are belong to us!

Not about DRM.

[NotQuiteReal]

This doesn't say anything about DRM - just "copies".

I presume that means buying a non-DRM, plain-old CD and "copying" it to my MP3 player.

By your logic Germans should just stop buying DVDs and CDs... perhaps that is what you meant.

Re:Grammar "Nazi"

[rection47]

Haha, classic. I mean I wont put someone down for grammar, Im definately far from perfect, but dont complain about someones grammar if you yourself aren't even right, you know? Especially when what your complaining about is correct grammar...

I'm soooo scared

[MrSteveSD]

As the Video pirate captain in "Amazon Women on the Moon" said, "I'm soooo scared". See the Video Pirates in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I5dVBezF9k

The real reason behind this law

[cpghost]

Do you really think this silly law is about DRM? IP rights? Copyright infrigement? C'mon! Just like the anti p2p legislation, it will be ignored by nearly everyone, and the government won't even try to enforce it on normal citizens. The real reason for such widely disobeyed laws is for the government to have a tool they can smash on the heads of people they don't like and against whom they have no other legal recourse. An example? Merkel doesn't like, say, Germans converting to Islam. Now imagine some government employee at work: "Oh, it's not illegal to convert? Damn those constitutional rights! How can I brown-nose our Angie? I need that promotion pronto! Oh, yeah, let's check out his private CDs / DVDs collection: there WILL be something illegal there to haul him into jail! Hmm.... What would I do with the pay rise?" Too narrow? Not so many "Konvertiten"? No problem! What about those pesky attac dissenters? Consumer rights groups? People protesting against taxes? Peace activists?... All of them will have compromitting CDs/DVDs somewhere, so government can selectively apply its silly anti-circumvention law to silence them too. Normal population has nothing to fear at all from this: it's a purely political law, that will be used for political purpuses only (plus a few token normal cases, so nobody gets all too suspicious).

Re:The real reason behind this law

[muuh-gnu]

> so government can selectively apply its silly anti-circumvention law to silence them
> too.

Actually they can not.

They didnt make copyright infringement suddendly a criminal offense or something the state itself could misuse to silence the opposition. They made circumvention of copy protection schemes copyright infringement, like the DMCA did in the US for several years now.

> Normal population has nothing to fear at all from this: it's a purely political law,
> that will be used for political purpuses only

The political purpose of this law is already served: To make the media industry able to sue and bully even more people. Apart from being corrupt and undemocratic, the law does not entitle the state to supress the people any more they have been able to do before.

Big deal

[codingmasters]

Since when has that ever actually stopped anyone from pirating music and movies? These laws won't make the slightest bit of difference.

Re:Unlicensed TV's?

[muuh-gnu]

Yep, absolutely crazy and.... completely made up.

>> representatives of the state do indeed walk into people's houses to check on things
>> like this.

This may have been true in the Communistic East German republic some 20 years ago, but in modern day Germany such things dont happen unless its a regular, court ordered house searching. (and such court orders do not get issued for not paying state TV fees.)

>> They told me he was looking for unlicensed TV's and did this once a year or so.

There actually are people looking for unlicenced TVs, but those are employees of a company collecting the fees for the state funded TV. They are neither functionarys, nor wearing uniforms nor are they representatives of the state. They are private individuals just collecting the fees, and, although at times a bit pushy (mercyless euphemism) if you have a TV but are not paying the fees, they neither can enter your apartment if you dont let them in valuntarily, nor do you even have to talk to them if you dont want. The GP if full of BS.

For what it's worth...

[jefreyisnotzen]

What is a CD worth to me if I can't copy it without breaking the law? Nothing. I own an iPod, that's what I use. My CD's have been paid for, ripped and put away in the closet. DRM? It's annoying. I still pay online a bit for now though, but I don't do it as much as they would like me too. I consider my purchases carefully because of the DRM protection, and don't buy that much online. If I can't use it the way I want to, I simply don't buy it. Period. Sales in the U.S. are down, because they aren't giving us what we want to buy, and the includes DRM. We don't want it. Protect themselves all the want, I won't do anything illegal. But that doesn't mean I'm going to buy it either. Their self preservation deflates the value of their product for me. It's no longer worth what it used to be. When things like this become law, then it becomes even harder for economic or trade models to be changed on the fly, to save their floundering business model.

I don't buy as much music as I used to back in the '80s or '90s, before DRM issues. Every time I do buy music, I feel like I'm buying and putting money into the pocket of someone I'd rather not do any business with...the RIAA. So, I don't do as much business with them anymore. It hurts their artists too, who I'd like to support and listen to, but that's also their choice for signing with the RIAA. Live and learn. For consumerism, the best way to vote, is to say no, by not buying, and saying yes, by buying. They only understand the bottom line. Their a little dumb though when it comes to understanding their consumers or what's really going on though. They (RIAA cartel) think we still like Britney Spears. I didn't like her before.

perpetuate a beurocracy...

[benow]

...outlaw the rational.

Re:Not news.

[Dunbal]

Fascism is not necessarily authoritarian.

      What? History kinda disagrees with you. Please point out the historical example of non authoritarian fascism.

Re:Not news.

[Teun]

hey I am german and not a fascist.

it is not funny :p

our government sucks
(I voted for the green party...) Yep, the Greens blow.
Happy now everything is balanced again?

Yes I can, no I can't

[Udo Schmitz]

The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies like Macrovision et al.

Yes. I am still allowed to make a private copy of the movie I just bought on DVD. I even paid for that right in a form of a levy on the DVD-R media and my DVD-burner. I'm not sure ... but I think even my Mac mini had that levy in its price. Now, as most movies this DVD comes wth a bunch of copy protection mechanisms. According to new laws I'm not allowed to by-pass them. So ... can I make that private copy or not? And ... do I get the money back I paid for that right in form of those levies on media and hardware? (Don't tell me there are DVDs without any copy-protection, those won't make up more than 1% sold in Germany.)

Re:Not news.

[shutdown -p now]

What? History kinda disagrees with you. Please point out the historical example of non authoritarian fascism.

Given that fascism is less than 100 years old, and we've only had a single country which could undeniably be called fascist (Italy, that is; Nazi Germany wasn't fascist; Antonescu's Romania and the Arrow Cross Hungary were somewhere in between; whether Fraco's Spain and Salazar's Portugal were fascist is still disputed), asking for a historical example doesn't make much sense.

On the other hand, there's no need for any such. Fascism is not just authoritarian, it's outright totalitarian by definition - Mussolini himself used the word "totalitarian", for the first time in a sense we used it today, in his "Doctrine of Fascism", describing the fundamentals of his ideology.

Re:Not news.

[shutdown -p now]

No, but it does have a LOT to do with telling you what you can and can't do in the privacy of your own home.

This is by no means unique to fascism as a politicla ideology. Modern liberal democracies put some restrictions on what you can't do in the privacy of your own home, as well: possession and manufacture of drugs, arms and explosives, for example. The difference is that liberal democracy respects privacy by default, and provides for few exceptions only when it is deemed absolutely necessary, whereas fascism promotes monitoring and shaping the individual's life, in its most intimate details, to serve the interests of the state.

Easy Solution

[RealBorg]

Stop buying DVDs and CDs and wait until the copyright mafia has wasted all their remaining money for bribing our lawmakers.

wrong

[m2943]

The author does not report the facts. The law does not prohibit the copying of DVDs or CDs; it disallows the circumvention of anti-copying technologies like Macrovision et al.

That does prohibit the copying of (almost all) DVDs; the fact that it doesn't explicitly say so doesn't change that.

The question then becomes: what do Germans pay fees on blank media for? What copyrighted content can be copied on DVDs? And why should the blank media fees be distributed to companies that put out encrypted (and hence, legally uncopyable) DVDs?

Re:Wrong

[KDR_11k]

Interesting, the socialdemocrats, the conservatives and the liberals voted for it. Guess voting for the green party was a good idea for situations like that. A socialdemocrat politician proposed an exemption for insignificant copying (so people who only download a few things aren't liable), the greens supported it and the consevatives prevented it...

I guess the story handler got the idea from the line where it says copies are illegal if the original is downloaded from an obviously illegal source.

Re:Not news.

[Dunbal]

fascism /fæzm/ [fash-iz-uhm] -noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. (sometimes initial capital letter) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. (initial capital letter) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922-43.

If that's not authoritarian I don't know WHAT is.

Re:Unlicensed TV's?

[delt0r]

I can back this up. They have come twice to our flat to "check" on the reason for not paying TV fees. And both time we just refuesed to let them in. There is nothing they can do. I have been told that even if they can see a TV from the door and you don't let them in, you can just deny it.

DMCA-like Act in force since 2003

[3247]

The DMCA-counterpart (actually, both the DMCA and the German law implement the international Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights, TRIPS) has been in force since 2003.

The law not passed does not even touch the paragraph which regulates the right to make copies for personal use. It just adds some more exceptions to copyright, mostly wrt to public libraries, e.g. it is now legal for libraries to send copies via email (previously, you had to send them via physical mail).

Re:DMCA-like Act in force since 2003

[3247]

The law not passed...

s/not/now/
Sorry.

You are a complete tosspot.

[jotaeleemeese]

Franco knew he and his ilk where Fascists and behaved as such, including mass executions, Fascist salutes, repression of minorities, supression of political parties not of their liking and all the rest.