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Happiness Is A Warm Electrode
sufijazz writes "A story by Gregory Mone on the Popular Science website talks about trials to use deep brain stimulation to cure chronic depression. It's a deeper exploration of the 'brain pacemaker' discussed here on the site before, and a practical application of research discussed even earlier. Why the pulses affect mood is still unclear, but scientists believe that they may facilitate chemical communication between brain cells, possibly by forcing ions through nerve fibers called axons. In turn, this may trigger the release of mood-regulating chemicals like serotonin and norepinephrine. Similar trials are being conducted in other places. Exact numbers are hard to ascertain, but it's estimated that fewer than 50 patients in North America are walking around with wires in their brain."
The warm electrode is the thing that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside when you're happy.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
Hmm, I always thought that happiness was a warm gun. Damn those kids and their new-fanged stimulation techniques. Next thing you know, they'll be sticking cattle prods into people's heads.
I wonder if these people have to be careful about walking around in socks on shag carpet on cool winter days. pzzzt!
quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Here without the ads and annoying background.
Why the pulses affect mood is still unclear, but scientists believe that they may facilitate chemical communication between brain cells, possibly by forcing ions through nerve fibers called axons.
Isn't that the same way World of Warcraft works?
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Happiness Is A Warm Electrode
Hmm, I always thought that happiness was a warm gun.
It's actually both, which means, logically, that happiness is a taser.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
the rise of the wirehead!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead
When I was on anti-depressants I acted in a way that, in retrospect, wasn't natural for me. I did some very weird things and occasionally embarrased myself, which is something that I don't like to do. What the fuck was I thinking back then? And was it really caused by anti-depressants, or have I simply changed? I don't know, but I'm now very wary of any artificial means of making yourself happy or less depressed. Besides, this technology doesn't address the root cause of why someone is depressed. I suppose it's useful to someone who's really badly depressed, but personally I wouldn't want to try it.
It won't be long until we know if Larry Niven was right about brain stimulation. If the current makes you feel better, will you be less likely to switch it off?
http://michaelsmith.id.au
If the root cause is that your Axons are not releasing enough neurotransmitters, then this technique is addressing the root cause.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
Now I know why I've been happier since I was abducted. Oh wait, this is about a brain probe...
say "we don't know why this works... but we think it makes you happy..."
Yet, somehow, a good joint and a stiff drink are evil.
This is my sig.
For those who have read Larry Niven's Ringworld or Spider Robinson's Mindkiller (and I am sure there are others) this sounds like the concept that thay have explored. Not to be alarmist but, the downsides of this being abused could be as big as any drug in history. I think while there could also be up side in that it is a drug that can be turned off. I personally like the chapter in Mindkiller where the main character finds a nearly dead wirehead while braking into her apartment.
Exercise on par with drugs for aiding depression:: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070919/hl_nm/exercise_depression_dc;_ylt=AqwvsOoXYw0l3eNh11Gw1O0DW7oF
So get unglued from your computers occasionally and get some fresh air. =)
I regret that I only have one mod point to give per post.
"You are now a class three citizen, your happiness level will be raised accordingly."
Deleted
While I am not depressed, I am very close to some who are, and they universally describe the feeling of getting on the proper drug regimen as "having a curtain lifted from my eyes", or "feeling a great weight off of my shoulders". Not high, not weird, just no longer crushingly depressed most of the time. On a properly tuned, working, medication regimen, anti-depressants enable the patient to again experience a "normal" range of emotion. Working, properly tuned, anti-depressants don't make you feel happy; instead they enable you to be happy under circumstances that most folks would be happy in, and you feel normal on normal days. You still feel like crap on crappy days.
That said, everyone does react differently, and some can have the side-effect of sending you into a manic state (which can include the symptoms you described). Usually a dosage or timing adjustment can fix this.
Drug tuning is still more art than science. A new drug to treat depression is considered a great success if 50% of the users experience a 50% improvement. Many successful regimens involve combinations of drugs, and it can take a year or more to find the right combination. (It doesn't help that many common drugs take over a month to have any effect.)
SirWired
Take a look at the cochlear implant wearers in the US. The auditory nerve is considered part of the brain in the paper I read a few years ago. There are 10,000 children in the US alone wearing them, according to Wikipedia. Then there are the implants for epilepsy, Parkinson's, and attempts to provide them for balance disorders.
It's interesting work: they're apparently much more effective for transmitting a signal than picking up signals, so the idea of using them for artificial limbs or thought-control of aircraft has never really worked well.
" Similar trials are being conducted in other places. Exact numbers are hard to ascertain, but it's estimated that fewer than 50 patients in North America are walking around with wires in their brain.""
And there's a magazine just for these people.
Mother Jones ran an article about the use of electric shock to manage severe self-injurious behavior. It'd be a Good Thing if deep brain stimulation could do this in a more humane way...
depression != unhappy
Unhappy is what normal people feel when something exists to make them unhappy.
Depression is what depressed people feel all, or most of, the time, for no apparent reason.
Anti depressants allow a depressed person to feel normal - i.e. they can feel unhappy again, as well as happy and everything in between. It reconnects their emotional response to everything, rather than being permanently, well, literally depressed.
no text
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
Isn't this basically an electrical frontal lobotomy.
Haven't they read The Terminal Man?
Happy psychopathic serial killers, walking the streets, humming their little happy tunes....
Clear, Dark Skies
Thanks for the link. I wish advertisers understood that annoying the reader is not the way to sell things.
Anyone who suffers from depression should understand that the article does not describe real science, which is based on fundamental theories. It just describes tinkering.
Quote from the article: "But first Rezai must convince his colleagues that attacking depression with electrical current is a good idea. Patients like Hire, who don't respond to drugs, therapy or ECT, reveal how little modern science really understands about depression, which is one reason why DBS tends to raise thorny scientific and ethical questions."
Another quote: "To some, acting on this rudimentary understanding of DBS and its effects on the brain recalls the notorious history of operating on the brain to treat mental disorders."
...it's estimated that fewer than 50 patients in North America are walking around with wires in their brain."Yeah, but I bet there's a much bigger number who think that they are!
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
If you suffer from depression, read the book "The Primal Scream" by Arthur Janov.
I feel more "stable" when I take my meds than I do otherwise, and if you were to ask my husband, he would tell you that it's like night and day. No, I don't walk around all smiles, but I'm not exactly crying all the time either. Depression sucks as bad as any other major disease. If I could get some kind of implant put in that could fix the depression in a permanent manner, I'd jump on it in a heartbeat, if only to be able to give up the pills (I have problems remembering to take them).
What makes matters the worst for a depression sufferer is if their triggers happen to be something that themselves are either long-term or essentially unsolveable problems which the sufferer is stuck with. In those cases, pills simply aren't enough, and so you're back to feeling like hell all the time. That's where I stand (two such conditions), and I hate it worse than the most rabid Linux user hates Microsoft.
I presume that women are not allowed to have such wires in Alabama.
http://sexinthepublicsquare.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/q-when-is-a-vibrator-more-dangerous-than-a-gun/
Bert
Who still wonders how Americans can sing about "home of the free"
As my mistress removed the nipple clamps from their storage trunk I became aroused.... watching her connect the other end of the jumper cables to the car battery I could feel warm and fuzzy feelings toward her beginning to build as she threateningly arced the cables by placing the positive and negative ends close together. She first clamped my right nipple and then my left and I could feel happy thoughts enter my mind as she called me a miserable little worm. When she proceeded to sear the skin of my chest in increasingly long sessions of applied voltage I could remember thinking "I've never felt happier" as I passed out to the smell of burned flesh.
where is the version that turns you into a zombie?
and where do i sign up!
I'm a rabbit startled by the headlights of life
Pacemaker for the brain, eh. So if I up clock rate of the pace...
;)
Excuse me, I'm going to look for the appropriate nitrogen ice cream recipes to keep my brain cool for what I have in mind.
All rites reversed 2010
If you're going to implant electrodes to make people feel good, why not make them feel really good?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleasure_center
Sorry, but you're wrong. Many do think about it, they just disagree with the the ethical conclusion that you derive from your thought about it. Slandering everyone who disagrees with you as unthinking idiots doesn't convince anyone of your ideas' correctness.
I hope you enjoyed your little anonymous scream at the world, though. Hey, here's a hint: happiness comes when you learn to stop screaming. Anonymous ranting doesn't bring anyone closer to the pleasure you claim to value so highly.
Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
In college, I knew a fellow who would insert a Q-Tip into his penis hole to "cure" his depression. I really don't know how or why that'd work, but somehow it would. He'd be crying one moment, he'd get a Q-Tip and insert it into his penis, and then a minute or two later he'd be overjoyed. It was really a sight to behold, but also confusing as all hell.
If the brain isn't producing enough chemicals to allow you to experience happiness then no amount of luxury is going to lift you from depression. A common comment from people who have no clue about depression is "what do they have to be depressed about?" The answer to this is typically nothing, except for a brain that isn't working correctly.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
If we weren't supposed to eat those 4000 animals, they wouldn't taste so good.
Interesting, but not accurate.
First Amazon 5 star review begins: "What an amazing book this is!"
Second 5 star review begins: "when one first reads janov, one gets to see things that seem to have always been waiting in one's unconscious, but never actualized in conscious form."
Third 5 star review begins: "Arthur Janov is a brilliant man."
Supporting information:
John Lennon of the Beatles before Janov's help: Did at least 4 drugs, apparently daily. Screwed around with numerous women.
John Lennon of the Beatles after Janov's help: Stayed home and took care of his child. Seemed much less desperate.
Advice: It doesn't work to just read the book. It is necessary to try what he says. Since that takes only an hour or so, trying it is not a big investment. Numerous people wrote to Janov's Journal of Primal Therapy and told of positive results with what Janov called "Self-Primaling".
If you have cancer you should do something about your situation (or your perception thereof) rather than having LEDs jammed up your nose.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? And yet what you've said is just as ridiculous.
Using openSUSE instead of Windows since 9th of October, 2007 and liking it.
I'm leery of the idea of implants especially for treatment of depression. Depression is a medical-neuorlogical problem yes, but it is often treated as a medical disorder by doctors and psychologists when it is sometimes a social disorder. I think before even considering surgery - especially brain surgery since it is very high risk and irreversible damage may occurr - the patient should at least consult with other professionals to identify if the problem is social, family or substance abuse related.
.... hoping to give some ideas anyways. :)
OTOH, I have epilepsy. Mine isn't bad as I'm seizure free for many years now. Some of the medications that are used were first used to treat depression and it was found to treat epilepsy. So, I ask is there someway to make these devices to prevent epileptic seizures? I realize the trigger mechanisms may/are very different. But I've seen posts from MDs and neuroscientists here
Starring Will Smith coming soon to a screen near you. A Tony Scott production.
Now, just wait to get modded down by someone who doesn't spot the scientific truth of your statement, assuming it to just be a callous flame aimed at vegetarians and vegans.
Tags != Comments, and -1 (Troll) != -1 (I Would Respond Angrily To This Poster So They Must Be Trolling)
Not as rediculous as jamming LEDs up your nose hoping to cure cancer.
You know it makes sense, a little reminder from jointm1k.
There are a lot of "may"s and "might"s in this article. They can try your brain first. I'll go second thank you very much.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? I will rephrase that. You do not have an idea what you're talking about. I'm not even going to debate with you about suffering: I put human beings first and animals second. If it comes down to a choice between a human being and 4,000 animals, I know which way I'd choose. Period. End-of-statement.
... it's been a long time) and the difference was like night and day. "I have my life back" he said, and stopped drinking ... he didn't need it anymore, just to feel normal for a while. It was astonishing, and the relief we all felt was palpable. He still suffered from the effects of his condition 'til he died, but at least he had a life. If that drug hadn't come out when it did he wouldn't have lasted another six months, a year tops. He switched to different drugs over time, as better ones became available, but he got an extra twenty five years because of them.
... very difficult. I'm not saying that antidepressants (like virtually all drugs) aren't capable of being abused, but to claim that people suffering from clinical depression should just "get over themselves" is a preposterous falsehood. Period. End of statement.
When you've finished dealing with the fact that I disagree with you on every point, go read this. After you've educated yourself on how wrong you are, come back tell me that what you said is even slightly relevant. Like the GP, I've had two family members suffer from severe clinical depression, suicide was narrowly averted multiple times. In one case the onset was before the age of antidepressants: he drank to mask the effects of the depression, but overall alcohol simply worsens the problem. When one of the early drugs became available we got him on it (Elevil in the late seventies, I think
People who claim that no-one needs antidepressants ("Tom Cruise, are you listening?") are fools. Ignorant assholes who would cheerfully consign other human beings to a living hell contained within their own skulls. I still don't understand how it must feel to suffer from this disease, and yet I had to deal with the consequences of it for almost thirty years. All of us did, and it was
If there is a God, I hope He delivers people like you a sample of what you say doesn't exist. For just a few years: I wouldn't want you to get so depressed that you actually off yourself. Maybe then you'll understand why what you just said offended me to the core.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Sounds like somebody needs some antidepressants here...
There are actually two types of depression. One can be caused by a traumatic experience, like losing a loved one and these types of depressions can sometimes be completely cured with time or counceling. In these cases, it might not be wise to just use anti depressives, as they can make things worse.
There are however also people who have a chronic brain disease that cause them to be depressed, where medications are usually always necesarry.
Working, properly tuned, anti-depressants don't make you feel happy; instead they enable you to be happy under circumstances that most folks would be happy in, and you feel normal on normal days.
Circumstances must be filtered by opinions before they affect a person's happiness. The most effective and least risky way to control one's emotional state is to modify one's opinions.
Directly tampering with brain chemistry is expensive, risks your health, and creates a dangerous dependency on the supplier.
What about those who suffer from unhealthy opinions?
Are you saying that wrong opinions cannot also make us unhappy?
I love this: "Why the pulses affect mood is still unclear."
So apparently some scientist thought it would be fun to try electrocuting someone's brain, not knowing what would result of it. I know some people would be outraged at the idea, but it sorta makes me want to become a neuroscientist if I get to play around like that...
Apparently there has been some success at treating Lesch-Nyhan syndrome with deep-brain stimulation. I found out about this disease, its cause, and the treatments for it (there are few) in an article in The New Yorker a few months back. [http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/08/13/070813fa_fact_preston]
Deep Brain Stimulation isn't necessarily a new technology. It has been helping folks with neuro-motor issues for awhile, with very good results for the most acute cases. It's not surprising to me that it's also been found beneficial for extreme cases of clinical depression.
DBS basically consists of two electrodes implanted deep within the brain, paper thin wires are then run down the neck to a pacemaker type device in the chest. The device can be programmed to emit various waveform pulses at different frequencies and voltages. After implantation, they tune all these parameters to find the best combination for the patient.
Like I said, I don't know it's benefits or results for depression, but for other diseases and syndromes it can be very beneficial. Video of patients, with beneficial outcomes.
It's just a Slashdot comment, not an entire book of analysis. I mentioned 3 5-star reviews and gave an example of an extremely high-profile person who was helped. That's about as strong as a recommendation can be considering that there are only a few words.
> >
> > Hmm, I always thought that happiness was a warm gun.
>
> It's actually both, which means, logically, that happiness is a taser.
Actually, it's all three. Happiness is mandatory. Are you happy, Citizen?
You are confusing clinical depression with pessimism. Telling somebody who is suffering from clinical depression to "modify their opinions" or "control their emotional state" is mostly useless. Somebody suffering from clinical depression is simply unable to feel happy. It doesn't matter at all what their circumstances are, or how a normally functioning person would feel about them. Yes, psychotherapy is at least partially effective for some forms of depression, but it is totally ineffective for others. (And usually psychotherapy is far more expensive than drugs.)
Real life isn't as neat and clean as 10-minute therapy on "Dr. Phil". Telling a depressed person that they should just be happier is about as effective as telling somebody who is drunk off their ass to "think sober".
It is silly to argue against anti-depressants because they "create a dangerous dependency on the supplier". You could say that about medication for just about any chronic medical condition. Anti-depressants are not like narcotics, you do not need to continually increase your dosage to maintain effectiveness. Most anti-depressants on the market today are not particularly expensive either, as most are available in generic form.
SirWired
Sounds great but I'll stick to fish oil and exercise and socializing if I'm ever depressed. I think people ignore the root causes of depression too much. (I know that in this universe we can't really dig down to the "root cause" of anything without invoking the big bang and then asking "why?" one more time and finding there is no root at all, but you know what I mean.) I think depression is basically a social disease -- the hallmark of depression, I think, is social dysfunction, mainly a lack of meaningful time spent with others. This is a symptom of course, but it can also be a cause. Everyone knows that: isolation is not good for you. And social isolation has sky-rocketed, especially physical isolation, in the past century. (Just being on the phone or on the net doesn't do as much good as being in person, IMNHO.) Is it a wonder that depression has increased so much, too? (Now, I know our data has big limitations, and that this depression epidemic coincided with the development of "safe" anti-depressants [with a side-effect of suicide, who'd a thunk it?] because depression was actually *sold* to the public, but I do tend to believe that depression has really increased big time in the past century, and in the past 25 years, too.) Another thing that got worse in the past century: our diet. Specifically, the ratio of omega-3 fatty acids to omega-6 fatty acids has swung drastically in favor of omega-6 fatty acids. Omega-3 fatty acids "comprise approximately eight percent of the average human brain" (from Omega-3(wikipedia)). So, it seems to me that, as we've gone from something like 1:1 omega-3:omega-6 to 30:1 over the past 100 years, we're really f'ing with our brain. Also, breast milk has DHA (one of the two essential fatty acids in fish oil). Only the pricier infant formulas that have come to market in the past decade have DHA. Infants breast-fed had an IQ almost 10 points higher than those not. It's compelling, if debated. But, the depression studies with fish oil are pretty unequivocal. Also, schizophrenics benefited significantly, particularly those who were not yet being treated with anti-psychotics (but who did have schizophrenia -- so the take away is probably that fish oil [EPA in particular] is good for more "mild" cases of schizophrenia (?) ). Also, exercise is good for depression. Who'd have guessed it? It's really good for depression. Also also, spending time with other human beings, in person, is negatively correlated with depression. Amazing! By the way, since Diane has such a virulent "strain" of depression, I wondered if they ever tried the dreaded and "addictive" opiates for her disease. You know, we can't be giving people morphine willy-nilly, sure, it's been used for longer than any other drug in human history, but it's ADDICTIVE. That's right, once you start, you have to take it everyday. ADDICTIVE=take your medicine everyday. Oh, the bane of my existence, taking another pill in addition to my Centrum. But, didn't the doctors say that patients with major depression should expect to take medication for the rest of their life? Hmmm.... Maybe someone should see if the opiates work for depression... What's that? The few times they've been studied in the recent past they worked much better than the SSRI's, with fewer side effects, more complete recovery from depression, and without making people suicidal? Wow! Imagine that -- the world has turned their back on a drug because, instead of just anti-depressing people, it might make them feel genuinely good. Huh. And, they'd rather shock your brain. Still, they prefer Prozac to all of the above: Physical dependence (aka addiction) + no euphoria + incomplete healing in most patients. Sounds like a winner. This way, they keep coming to the psychiatrist looking for a second drug to finish their depression off. Also, they rarely prescribe amphetamine for depression now. Yet, a child with "ADD" or "ADHD" will have no trouble at all getting a prescription for it. Adults can't get it, probably beca
OK, all of that may very well be, but, what can you do for me today? If a wing will help keep me from crashing into the wall most of the time, I'll take it. Let me know when you have a better solution. I'd like to try it.
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
I received the VNS implant in January this year. It's pretty cool, it's only side effect is that it causes a tightness in my throat every few minutes. Compared to the medicine cocktail given to most chronic depression patients, I consider VNS a great relief. I'm sure there are way more than 50 people in the US that have this implant. Given that extensive trials have been conducted in the US. I had a list of surgeons that perform the operation routinely in my relatively small city. We even have a vibrant newsgroup where patients share results and settings. Unfortunately, I have no way to adjust the settings on my own. I can turn it on or off by using a magnet, but the other settings (amplitude, frequency, duration) can only be changed by the doctors computer/wand. So, for me, VNS has proven very beneficial. My mood is elevated and I have been able to cut down on nasty meds.
As a person diagnosed with bi-polar (manic-depressive) and schizo-affective (a psycho) disorder since my late teens I feel well qualified to dispel a few of the rumors some people have about these DISEASES. I was unlucky enough to be born an (almost) little rich kid who was smoking pot, drinking Jack Daniels, and doing real late 1960's acid on a regular basis by the time I was in eighth grade. At the ripe old age of 12 while my brain still had 6 years of physical development to complete I never gave it a chance. Brain damage. This, in combination with quite a bit of the "crazy" genes I inherited from mom put me on a path which on one hand I wouldn't trade for a million dollars but by the same I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Such is the nature of this beast. I'm 53 years old now. An old hippie who hasn't worked in 12 years and has no friends other than my wife of 30 years (my best friend). I disdain crowds and people in general. I've had enough adventures to last a lifetime and now that I have had these diseases mostly under control for the last 8 years or so I am enjoying my life more than ever. Depression is a hole in the ground. A black hole from which no light escapes nor does ones soul. To stand at the precipice prior to the fall is perhaps the most frightening thing which I've often experienced in my life. Knowing that it will be perhaps weeks, months, or years to return to the real living world yet having no choice but to be in this perilous position is what depression is all about. Not a matter of laughing or crying by forcing it. Not a matter of ignoring your "problems" and getting back on track. It's a fucking disease. So too is the opposite - the mania which comes seemingly from no source. Suddenly I am awake, alive, taking risks, being rapturously crazy and loving it. I may stay up for 5 days. I used to drink and drug during these periods. Getting caught once too often finally saved my life. You think depressed people have a pension for suicide? Try being truly manic. You are a GOD and just like when you were 17 - nothing can hurt you. Total irresponsibility, career crashing behavior (like I said- I haven't worked in 12 years), marriage ruining, child hurting (emotionally) parenting. Selfish in the extreme. And as quickly as the high starts you crash. Overtired, normally on the edge of physical exhaustion. And if you are damn lucky you don't crash directly into a depression. I thank God for small and large favors. I have done things I am extremely proud of as well as things I am ashamed of knowing I ever did. I have done things that I dare never tell anyone about for fear of the consequences. I have spent the last 10 years sober, and drug-free with the exception of prescribed medication. It has taken almost 20 years to find a combination of medicines which keep me on somewhat of an even keel. The problem is that a given stasis never lasts for more than two or three years. It's as if I build up a tolerance and my psychiatrist and I experiment again ever so gently with another drug or two. At my worst I was locked up in a mental institution receiving ECT (electro convulsive therapy) treatments over a period of a several long weeks. These were used to bring me out of the deepest depressions I ever fell in. Did they work? For me - yes. However the price has been a signifigant hit to mostly my short term memory. Many years have passed yet this memory problem exists due to the treatments in combination with the diseases as well as the side effects of some of my meds. If you think I am the only one around with these kind of real, identified, causal as well as genetically based problems then guess again. If you think I was trying to write a feel sorry for me novella with these words then please cut me a break. I don't want or need anyones pity. I am merely trying to decribe what this 40+ year trip has been so that maybe a few of you can see it for what it really is. Nobody asks for this. I know a few who fake it for sympathy but those seem to be the people who always get better in the end and get a masters in psych to make some money. Well good for them. For me the mere fact that I'm still alive and I have many,many more good days than bad days at this point is a gift I cherish.
My mom actually programs Deep Brain stimulators for Parkinson's patients. She says it's one of the most rewarding things in her career, and yet the real excitement is where we are with DBS is where artificial hearts were 30 years ago. She believes that in 30 years, it'll be a totally revolutionized science, and the possibilities are endless. Also, she's had some interesting stories about what happens if the turn the electrode to the wrong level. Stuff ranging from tingling and twitching to actual depression and the like are able to occur. Still, if she's right, 30 years down the road, could we have brain replacements?
I don't think people's main problem is the antidepressants, but merely that they are prescribed by doctors on a whim. For people that are simply unable to feel happy, the drugs make sense, but for normal people who might respond to therapy or simply taking initiative in their lives, they get doped up and suddenly feel better without making the substantial changes that would not necessitate the drugs in the first place. I think the reason /. has such an adverse reaction to the drugs is because the over medicated environment feels a lot like big brother saying, "Your life sucks? Keep working pay taxes. Take these pills to make yourself feel better about it." or something like that. It's also that some of those prescriptions come from doctors not taking enough time to fully evaluate and get to know the patient (which is not necessarily the doctor's fault, he's probably shortstaffed).
are all the thrills I need.
Commander, the population is close to unrest; bring on the nerve-staples.
Tase this bro.
These things are unrelated. (Thank goodness!)
It reminds me of a scene in a movie Mambo Italiano:
Do they need to improve the cooling to prevent your brain from crashing?
If my call is important, why am I talking to a recording?
Kevin: I'd like to start off by saying that you look like a right guy. You look like a serious, straight-shooting guy. You're wearing a guy shirt. Why fashion? .... look. And I've always wanted to be a part of the beautiful woman in some way, an appendage to the beautiful woman. An arm or a leg to the beautiful woman in some way. So I think I should design clothes for the beautiful woman and in that way I can celebrate them and become a part of them because I love beautiful women.
Dave: Well Darcy, it's just that I've always loved beautiful women. All my life I've loved them and I've loved the way that they, uh
Kevin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dave (vehemently): But I hate ugly women, Darcy! Oh, I hate ugly women with a passion you cannot begin to imagine! They are an abomination of everything that the beautiful woman stands for!
Kevin: Hmm. So has this hatred for ugly women affected your work at all?
Dave: Yes! Yes, yes, yes. In fact, my career has taken a bit of a turn in that direction. I'm now designing a line of clothes specifically for the ugly woman.
Kevin: . . . Are you French?
Dave: No.
Kevin: Let's take a look at your sketches!
Dave: Fine. (Holds up first card. It's a fashion sketch showing an ugly woman in a long, lumpy, pink dress.) Now Darcy, this first sketch is of an evening gown. It's a very tight fitting gown, and it's backless, designed to highlight the various ugly bulges that the ugly woman managed to grow on her body. And this gown is made entirely out of pink fiberglass foam insulation.
Kevin: Now how would you accessorize this?
Dave: Ah yes, Darcy. Well, what I've done for this dress is I've designed a hat that I call "The Spike in the Head." (Shows next sketch of an ugly, overweight woman with a large spike through her head.) Quite simply, it's a spike driven into the woman's head. Very simple. Very painful. But! The ugly woman deserves only the most painful.
Kevin: I love hats, but I don't have a hat face.
Dave: Well then Darcy, follow me on a journey from the head. Take an elevator ride down to the shoe, where we find the Boite de Verre Shoe. Translated, it is "The Box of Glass." (Shows the next sketch of an ugly woman who has a box of broken glass strapped to her feet. Blood pours out from each shoe.) What it is, is a box of broken glass with a thong to hold the foot firmly in the box so that you don't, you know, lose a shoe. Because you don't want to lose a shoe.
Kevin: To me, Christian, half the battle is the cost. I mean, it's all fine to look pretty and nice and everything, but um... (she rifles through the sketches) how much is the Spike in the Head? Lou? Is this the camera? (A game of camera tag follows as Kevin waves the sketch around. As soon as the director cuts to an appropriate camera, Kevin yanks the sketch away and holds it up to a different camera.) Chris? Chris? Buddy? Lou?
Dave: Well Darcy, it's very reasonably priced. The Spike in the Head is quite reasonably priced at about twelve hundred dollars.
Kevin: What?!
Dave: Twelve hundred dollars.
Kevin: What?!
Dave: Twelve hundred dollars.
Kevin: What?!
Dave: Twelve hundred dollars.
Kevin: That's ridiculous! Why would anyone pay twelve hundred dollars for that?
Dave: Well, they do. Well, they do.
Kevin: Well I wouldn't.
Dave: Well I assure you that people do.
Kevin: Well I assure you I wouldn't. Let's open this up to the studio audience.
Dave: Fine.
Kevin: You!
(Cut to the audience. There's only one guy there. It's Brad from the earlier vampire sketch.)
Kevin: What do you think about this? Twelve hundred dollars?
Scott: What? Oh . . . um, I just came in to get out of the rain, right?
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, but what do you think about paying twelve hundred dollars for this?
John Lennon's song writing ended earlier, when his cooperation with Paul McCartney ended.
Hanging around with Yoko Ono didn't help, either. John Lennon was not a good judge of women, in my opinion.
I imagine it is quite difficult, if you are some good blokes from Liverpool, to accept world fame, and all the complication that implies.
I've heard much the same as you seem to have but with long term pain suffers. Before I became one I was skeptical, not openly of course but I did have my reservations. Now that I am one, it's unbelievable that most people claiming to be in pain are largly ignored. Excuses you're heard are much the same just referring to different drugs. I wish there were more people like you around. I'd sure make a lot of peoples lives easier.
I do it anyway but it anyways, but it used to annoy me when people would tell me how much better it would make me feel. If anything the exercise/drug comparison is really only an example of how ineffective our current batch of antidepressant really are and with the high level of hit-and-miss and the 'poop-out's' I'd imagine you could study doing just about anything consistently and find it was as effective or nearly as effective as antidepressants.
Not that I don't believe exercise make some people happier, but I don't get a joggers high. I get tired and sore. I'll probably live longer and my heart probably gets more oxygen.
Quack, quack.
and I agree the drugs thing *is* very unnatural allowing you're brain chemistry to achieve states that are terribly disconnected from anything you'd be able to actually achieve by any natural means. But before getting too high (no pun) on our horses I think it's important to remember that while this is a pretty incredibly young science and the chances are there will be a lot of missteps as we explore it the lives that it improves really are important. Even if it's done a bit imperfectly.
Quack, quack.
As to GP, gtfo my planet. It's chumps like you that make it hard for us normal, non-offensive-bile-spewing-zealot vegetarians to actually admit their dietary preference. If you have such a problem with the world, get a job in biotech or something, to try and fix it constructively. Telling people that they're evil for doing something they've always done will just piss them off.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Out of interest, do you take pain killers?
Telling somebody who is suffering from clinical depression to "modify their opinions" or "control their emotional state" is mostly useless.
Of course. I am assuming that the person suffering from depression is unable to do this, and must be taught how.
Somebody suffering from clinical depression is simply unable to feel happy.
I think you are confusing something which can be cured by learning with a physical disability.
Telling a depressed person that they should just be happier is about as effective as telling somebody who is drunk off their ass to "think sober".
Again, you are confusing the mental with the physical. Alcohol is physical. Negative thoughts are non-physical, and must be treated differently.
It is silly to argue against anti-depressants because they "create a dangerous dependency on the supplier"
Perhaps I should have added the word 'needless' to make my meaning clearer.
Or maybe he starred in that damn piranha movie. *shrug*
Politicians and Pedophiles: Two groups of exploitive bastards who are most dangerous when they're thinking of children.
Half of this post is dead serious. The other half isn't.
Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
Totally agree.
Tuna Sandwich: $1
Chicken Tikka Masala: $10
Eating 4000 animals during one lifetime: Priceless.
Most of animals we eat are tasty,
For everything else, there are spices. >:)
Politicians and Pedophiles: Two groups of exploitive bastards who are most dangerous when they're thinking of children.
You know more about Lennon than I.
.. done a tremendous amount of science and
research, and It holds up." I have seen no evidence that Janov understood why
Primal Therapy works, or that he had good theories, or even that he understood
the importance of theories. I'm guessing that he made that statement to be
fashionable.
When I was living in England I read all the books in the library about the Beatles. There were many that were not published in the U.S, and not generally available in the United States. But... That was a long time ago, and I developed the impression that there were no really good biographies available then.
Just now, thanks to Google, I've learned more.
I didn't like the Plastic Ono Band album, but don't remember much about it.
I certainly agree about Imagine. It's not clear when he wrote the song, apparently.
I got the impression that Lennon and McCartney had a big effect on each other's song writing. Without Lennon's influence, McCartney's lyrics became syrupy. I got the impression that each of them would say to the other, "You're not really going to say that?" They apparently acted as each other's editor. Apparently McCartney helped limit Lennon's negativity and cynicism.
In my opinion, both Cynthia and Yoko Ono were good for John. It wasn't his involvement with them that was the problem. It was what he did with them. He shouldn't have had a child with Cynthia or with Yoko. In the language of U.S. women, Yoko "got her hooks into him". She manipulated his weaknesses. That was easy for many people to see, including other members of the Beatles.
This web page is interesting: John Lennon Primal therapy. That web page contains an accurate description of Primal therapy. However, the description may be useful only to people who have already done Primal Therapy. It's not very useful to someone who is only reading about it.
On that web page, Arthur Janov says, "Then he or Yoko called me.." I think Janov knows who called him. I'm guessing it was Yoko.
Janov says, "He said 'Could you send a therapist to Mexico with me?' I said 'We can't do that, John.' " In my opinion, something is very wrong there. The story must be more complicated than that.
Janov says, "... we've since
I haven't thought about it for a long time, but I've seen no evidence that Janov went through Primal Therapy himself, even though he seems to have had considerable issues of his own. Janov discovered Primal Therapy, described things he saw very well, but was not the sort of careful thinker who would be able to carry his understanding to the next level. I've seen no evidence that the therapists at the Primal Institute have done Primal Therapy themselves. Last time I checked, they seemed to be running the Institute as a business, like a small computer manufacturer runs a business, for example.
They must be "taught" how to think positive thoughts? No, that usually doesn't work. Yes, therapy is effective in some cases, but there are a great many people for which it is an expensive total waste of time. For those people, their depression is just as real as the delusions and paranoid thoughts of a schizophrenic. To the sufferer of depression, the depressive thoughts are just as genuine as how you felt on the worst day of your life. They aren't caused by a poor outlook on life, they are caused by certain neurotransmitters not being regulated properly in the brain. During a depressive episode, they are simply unable to feel joy or happiness. Those parts of the brain are simply not working. Period. These malfunctioning parts of the brain cannot be coaxed into working by talking, any more than a weak pancreas can be talked into producing insulin. They are BOTH physical problems.
"Negative Thoughts" for most people are just mental hang-ups. For somebody suffering from clinical depression, they are caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, and no amount of talking will make it go away. Depression is just as physical as any other chronic disease. Just because a disease strikes the brain and effects emotions does not magically make it non-physical.
Yes, anti-depressants are over-prescribed; yes, some people are diagnosed with depression when instead they just have some personal issues, and for which therapy would be quite effective. That does not mean that all depression can be cured with therapy; nor will anti-depressants have much effect on somebody that is just having a bad time of it. They are two separate conditions, and the treatment for one does not work for the other.
SirWired
These malfunctioning parts of the brain cannot be coaxed into working by talking, any more than a weak pancreas can be talked into producing insulin. They are BOTH physical problems.
I accept that you are strongly convinced of this claim. I'm not sure, however, why anybody else should be convinced of it. Can you provide evidence that a common root cause of depression is a physical disorder?
Regarding the specific analogy, it seems clear that treating the brain as a purely physical organ - akin to a pancreas - is bound to lead to error.
Just because a disease strikes the brain and effects emotions does not magically make it non-physical.
That the human brain can be affected by non-physical phenomena - such as ideas and opinions - is commonly accepted, and doesn't require any kind of belief in magic.
Or correct opinions... when surrounded by morons/nonthinkers.
I found that there are methods that CAN replace or augment drugs for depression. This may sound strange, but using meditation to watch your own depressive thought process and to "not mind" the depressive state can actually lift a depression without SSRIs. There is a feedback loop between mental states and emotional states. Damping the feedback from emotional to mental a bit and applying "positive bias" from the mental to emotional can do a lot. I would imagine that SSRIs could help to jumpstart that process by making it easier to find that positive bias.
There is also evidence that screwed up sleep patterns can lead to depression (which then screws up sleep patterns further and keeps the screwed up). Again, correcting the sleep patterns (perhaps using SSRIs to jumpstart the process) can do a world of good. It's notable that as lifestyles have shifted towards longer work hours and a "nightlife", depression has become more prominant.
I suspect (but cannot prove) that most people teated with long-term anti-depressant therepy could actually do as well or better with a short term treatment, meditation techniques and better sleep hygene (lifestyle changes in other words).
A big plus is that meditation and a good night's sleep are very unlikely to have negative side effects and are free.
As a side note, Scientology appears to have a very expensive process that may (more or less accidentally) lead some people to a useful state of watching their thought process.
I'm with you 99%, except for the Scientology bullshizz. Got REAL close to doing that garbage when I was *TRULY* depressed as a Teenager, and am now TOTALLY glad I stayed out of it.
DQ
In Joe Haldeman's The Forever War, the military of the future uses "optimism drugs" to make troops not dwell on the negative aspects of going on suicide missions. They know they're likely to die, and they know they should be scared/worried, but they just aren't.
I would never recommend Scientology (I haven't tried it, don't want to). I was just recognizing that their program can sometimes accidentally do something useful (just often enough to create true believers). It's much better to do it on purpose without the crazy baggage :-)
There are indeed many issues with the mind that can be fixed purely through therapy, meditation, religion, what-have-you... However, why is it so difficult for you to accept that there possibly are problems that simply cannot be fixed that way? Chronic pain can also be managed under some circumstances via the same means, but that does not make the pain caused by chronic disease any less real, or have any less of a physical cause.
There are plenty of folks who know a heck of a lot more about medicine than you or me that also believe that depression can be caused by chemical regulation issues:
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/serotonin/genetic.html
There is evidence that the chemical imbalances have a genetic nature, which would certainly suggest a physical issue with the structure of the brain of victims.
http://www.mpipsykl.mpg.de/pages/english/info/news/mpifirst.html
That the emotions experienced by the human brain can be affected by physical phenomena, is commonly accepted, and doesn't require a belief in anything.
Can you provide evidence that a common root cause of depression is a physical disorder?
Certainly.
Until tests were developed for Thyroid malfunction, many people were simply thought to be lazy, unmotivated, and/or gloomy folk. (or hyper-active and irritable, depending on what was wrong with it) (There are other symptoms of Thyroid malfunction, but not all sufferers have the more obvious physical ones.) When the Thyroid was discovered to be the cause of these problems, treatment became relatively straightforward. (One medical test almost all people with suspected clinical depression (or anxiety) undergo is a test of Thyroid function for just this reason.) Just because we don't know the trigger for most clinical depression and can't find crap visibly falling apart in the brain doesn't mean it does not have a physical cause; it could just mean we haven't found it yet.
There are plenty of other well-known physical problems in the brain that can cause depression: Alzheimer's, tumors, malformed glands, physical trauma...
In my somewhat limited experience with those close to me, I have seen that for clinically depressed folks, therapy works to help the patient cope with the mind-breaking stress of a depressive episode; helps to keep them from killing themselves, even when every instinct is screaming that all is hopeless; it can help the patient live something outwardly resembling a normal life, even when they can barely pry themselves out of bed. In that way, depressive patients are lucky that it is a disease of the mind... the disease can managed to keep it from killing you while a drug regimen is sought. But when a proper drug regimen is found, the problem simply goes away (or at least gets quite a bit better). Drugs don't always work, but they are the best tool we have right now when therapy doesn't work either.
It is absolutely correct that treating the brain purely as a physical organ can lead to grave errors in diagnosis and treatment. Anti-depressants are completely ineffective in those that are not suffering from depression. Anti-depressants will not cure grief caused by the loss of a loved one, they will not cure apathy caused by the loss of a job, they will not fix anxiety caused by a big test coming up. Grief is a natural response to loss, anxiety is a natural response to stress. A doctor prescribing anti-depressants in those circumstances is being lazy and likely hoping the placebo affect will fix things. Likewise, a therapist that does not refer a patient to a MD for chronic depression where there are no triggers in their life and the therapy is utterly ineffective in curing the depression is also not making a correct decision.
The brain is, in the end, a physical organ that can have physical issues, just like the rest of the body; it is not immune from defect
As others have said, there are two principal methods of therapy for depression. One is "talk" therapy (Cognitive Based Therapy or CBT) the other approach is drug therapy.
Talk therapy is good for finding external causes, but mostly talk therapy is about learning coping skills. For people who have depression caused by external events or internal stresses, talk may be all that is needed. But not everyone falls into the group that only needs therapy.
Drug therapy approaches the physical side of the problem (chemical imbalance). For some people, the imbalance can be temporary, or cyclical, or a long term disability.
As for the effectiveness... I wish I had been properly treated 20-30 years ago. It would have made a huge difference over the course of the past few decades. There are way too many people like you who think "it's all in the head" or that "learning to think positive" will cure everyone. Which puts a stigma on the disease and keeps people from seeking treatment.
I've been on a drug regiment for about two to three years now. When I remember to take them daily, I'm a normal functional person with a moderately positive outlook and I don't chew people's heads off. I can get things done. If I forget to take the meds, things begin to slip. Normal tasks start to appear impossible, my outlook takes a nosedive, my temper becomes short, sleep becomes difficult and thoughts of suicide become frequent. Get back on the meds and things go right back to normal.
So for me, meds (thank goodness they're inexpensive and I'm on the lowest possible dosage) make a huge difference.
Clinical Depression is a disease that I hesitate to even wish upon my worst enemies.
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=sponsor
This sounds just like Micheal Chrigton's Terminal Man
No, I will not work for your startup
Yes, my family went through that particular aspect of the medical system as well: doctors don't really have pain management as one of their primary responsibilities, it seems. Although, in truth when it comes to severe chronic pain there's only so much they can do.
... well. That does torque me into a pretzel, for a fact.
My father suffered severe (I mean, severe) diabetic neuropathy for the last ten years or so of his life. It was unremitting, unrelenting pain, and it improved only because the nerve endings themselves finally died. Narcotics aren't really a long-term solution, but for the last six months of his life he was put on Dilaudid (powerful stuff) and at least was comfortable for that time.
I apologize for the tone of my original post, but, dammit, I do get irritated when people deny a very fundamental part of the human condition: some of us suffer, and suffer horribly. And when those same people go on to say that "hey, it's all in their heads and they should just get over themselves"
And you're right, it's not just depression, no matter what your condition there's always someone ready to say, "you're not sick, and if you are, it's your fault and you're probably lying about it anyway."
Phooey on them.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
If I had enemies of that caliber, I'd simply shoot them out of hand.
It would be more humane.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.