Slashdot Mirror
OOXML Critic Fired From Finnish Standards Board
Shirke writes "A Finnish computer magazine reports that Finnish Standards Association has fired Mr. Lassi Nirhamo (article in Finnish). Some excerpts: Mr. Nirhamo was chairing the OOXML standard proposal meeting. During the meeting Mr. Nirhamo asked other board members to be excused of his duties and voice his opinion as a private citizen. After this was granted he criticized the standard proposal and resumed his duties as chairman. Mr. Nirhamo has now been let go due to a 'lack of trust.' Independent observers have assessed his chairmanship as 'excellent' and 'one of a kind.' The Association is accepting applications for the position. Anyone interested?"
No hablamos el finés aquí.
Getting fired for something that's on record that you not only asked permission to do, but got that granted permission documented.
That's a new one to me.
Are these people elected and when's the next open forum meeting?
) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
another Finn that no-one trusts.. Good grief.. I can't think of any.
How we know is more important than what we know.
What possessed you to post in English on an English-mostly place, when the link is in Finnish? You're an ass, and Shirke is a poor "editor."
What? Too obvious?
MS has been able to get US federal judges replaced. So, of course it has no problem replacing the chair of SFS. MS knows that the specification can never be approved if given technical consideration, so they must game the process. Finland's no different than Sweden and the otyher countries where corruption occurred, the language barrier means that it just takes longer to find quislings.
But it sounds like, again, OOXML is a shit standard, and it's going to be pushed through by pressure from MS and its political lackeys (I mean allies), and anyone who takes a stand is going to be crushed.
Do I have it?
I can't read this article? It's words look interesting though? What does that mean?!!?!
What you do mod an "informative troll"?
The details are trivial and useless; The reasons, as always, purely human ones.
Somebody nominate me. Microsoft has not bought me yet. Hey, if they really did offer me millions, then I might have to reconsider... but that hasn't happened, so I am still qualified.
I'm in!
What you do mod an "informative troll"?
You don't.
± 1 Freakish
Back on topic, personally I've got no issues with someone posting a foreign language link, and providing the interesting bits in English. I'm certainly interested in viewing the opinions of other countries.
+1 Funny!
http://weblog.ceicher.com/archives/gates.jpg
Hey isn't Linus Torvalds from Finland? ;)
The article says (I can read finnish) that mr. Hirkamo was still on his trial period of 4 months, during which his boss could legally fire him without providing a reason.
The CEO of the organization in question, Pekka Järvinen, stated that "Unfortunately issues came up during the trial period, after which trust is no longer possible". And "I cannot comment on the reasons any further".
I guess his anti-Microsoft ideas were not appreciated :-P
"throwing chairs" in Finnish?
No, I don't know the details of the episode, but, this being slashdot, I'll just jump to the conclusion and shout out the remark: Finns, I expected better from you.
Getting fired for something that's on record that you not only asked permission to do, but got that granted permission documented. That's a new one to me.
He's not fired. He's simply pining for the fjords.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
In their defense, the board just said they'd excuse him of his duties. They didn't say they'd give them back.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
Here's a quick translation of the article.
The finnish standards association has suddenly terminated the contract of Lassi Nirhamo, the new expert of the IT standardization team. As late as last week, Nirhamo participated in the SFS press conference and was part in making the finnish stand on OOXML known at the ISO organization. Lassi Nirhamo tells to the Computer- magazine that he only got the information about the severance of his contract last thursday, after his four months probation was coming to an end. At this point the employer can legally terminate the contract without any cause.
Lassi Nirhamo himself wonders, that no reasons were given. "It's quite hard to say anything about reasons, when they haven't told me", says Nirhamo.
Lassi Nirhamo lead the OOXML- meeting in Finland, in which the finnish stand on the standard was decided upon. During the meeting, Nirhamo surprised the participants by announcing that he would speak as a private person for a moment, instead of being the chairman of the meeting. At that point he announced that he was against accepting the Microsoft standard. At the end of the meeting, Nirhamo put forward the opinion that Finland should abstain from voting.
The CEO of the Finnish Standrds Association, Pekka Järvinen says that the reason for ending the contract is lack of trust. "Unfortunately, during the probation period, issues came up, after which trust is not possible. I cannot comment further than this." Järvinen says over the phone.
SFS is now searching for a new expert who would be responsible for the many IT standardization related jobs, like continuing the OOXML- issue in the ISO organization next spring.
Another curious point is that most of SFSs correspondence with it's members are .doc files...
Microsoft standard critic got fired Picture text: Lassi Nirhamo participated SFS (Finnish Standards Association) press conference just last week, where he said he'll take OOXML subject to ISO workgroup. Finland's vote may change in the spring. SFS has surprisingly ended work contract of information technology standards team's new expert Lassi Nirhamo. Just last week Nirhamo participated SFS's press conference and was going to take Finland's views about OOXML to the ISO. Lassi Nirhamo tells Tietokone magazine, that he was informed losing his job last thursday, when four month test period was about to be finished. At that point employer can legally give notice to end the contract without giving any reason why. What Lassi Nirhamo wonders is the fact there was absolutely no reason given. "It's rather difficult to say anything about the reasons, because they never told me", says Nirhamo. Lassi Nirhamo was leading Finland's OOXML-meeting, in which Finland's vote was decided. In the middle of the meeting Nirhamo surprised the participants by telling he won't be the chairman, but a private person. At that point he declared to be against accepting Microsoft's standard. In the end of the meeting Nirhamo suggested to vote void. The CEO of SFS Pekka Järvinen tells the reason for ending the contract was lack of trust. "Unfortunately certain things came in to daylight during the test period that prevent trust. I can't elaborate any further than this", says Järvinen on the phone. SFS is looking for a new expert, whose responsibilities will include many information technology projects, such as continuing on OOXML in ISO in the spring.
Preview is your friend... :)
Microsoft standard critic got fired
Picture text: Lassi Nirhamo participated SFS (Finnish Standards Association) press conference just last week, where he said he'll take OOXML subject to ISO workgroup. Finland's vote may change in the spring.
SFS has surprisingly ended work contract of information technology standards team's new expert Lassi Nirhamo. Just last week Nirhamo participated SFS's press conference and was going to take Finland's views about OOXML to the ISO.
Lassi Nirhamo tells Tietokone magazine, that he was informed losing his job last thursday, when four month test period was about to be finished. At that point employer can legally give notice to end the contract without giving any reason why.
What Lassi Nirhamo wonders is the fact there was absolutely no reason given. "It's rather difficult to say anything about the reasons, because they never told me", says Nirhamo.
Lassi Nirhamo was leading Finland's OOXML-meeting, in which Finland's vote was decided. In the middle of the meeting Nirhamo surprised the participants by telling he won't be the chairman, but a private person. At that point he declared to be against accepting Microsoft's standard. In the end of the meeting Nirhamo suggested to vote void.
The CEO of SFS Pekka Järvinen tells the reason for ending the contract was lack of trust. "Unfortunately certain things came in to daylight during the test period that prevent trust. I can't elaborate any further than this", says Järvinen on the phone.
SFS is looking for a new expert, whose responsibilities will include many information technology projects, such as continuing on OOXML in ISO in the spring.
...that his career is finnished, I guess.
(Thanks, thanks, I'll be here all week.)
As a state gets corrupt, its laws multiply; the most corrupt states have the most numerous laws. (Tacitus, Annales 3:27)
kind of makes you wonder if there was any pressure political or financial from MS.
I find this whole OOXML debacle deeply disturbing, yet more evidence of decisions that should be taken on technical merit being swayed or decided on commercial factors. Worrying.
Worse it sets a very dangerous (IMHO) precedent.
(Note: this is a very quick word-to-word almost translation, I am not an expert in this just wrote for people to get a view of the issue)
The news is:
--
Expert who criticised the Microsoft's standard was fired.
Finnish Standards Association SFS has suddenly let go of IT standardation team's fresh expert, Lassi Nirhamo. Yet in the last week, mr. Nirhamo participated in SFS press conference and was taking the Finnish stand about the OOXML standardiation issue into ISO.
Lassi Nirhamo told the magazine (Tietokone) that he was told last weeks thursday that hes trial period of four months was coming to an end. In the trial period, its possible for employer to legally fire you for any cause.
Lassi Nirhamo wonders however why no cause has been given. "Kinda bad to say anything about reasons, when they didn't tell me why", says Nirhamo.
Lassi Nirhamo led the Finnish OOXML-meeting where Finnish stand on the issue was decided. In middle of the meeting, Nirhamo suprised the participants as announcing that for a moment hes not the chairman of the speak but a private citizen. In that period he announced that he personally was against apporval of the Microsoft's standard. At the end of the meeting mr Nirhamo presented that the Finnish stand on the issue would be to give no answer.
SFS's CEO Pekka Järvinen told that the reason of ending the employment was lack of trust. "Unfortunately during the trial period of employment, some issues came up after which trust is no longer possible. I cannot comment more on the specifics.", says Mr. Järvinen in a telephone conversation.
SFS is now recruiting for new expert who's responsibility is many IT-standardation projects and continuing of the OOXML-issue in the ISO at spring.
---
I hope this clears the subject a bit.
If the definition of the chairman's job is to be impartial and to make sure that all sides get a fair hearing (which it may or may not be), then by speaking up as a "private person" with strong views in the middle of a hearing, the chair has just questioned his own qualifications for the job. Consider the effect on the possible outcome -- the committee votes against OOXML, and Microsoft is going to cry foul -- the chair, who runs the show, was biased against them from the start. It discredits the committee.
Suppose a judge in a trial stood up in the middle and said, "I'd like to speak as a private person for a moment, and I think the defendant is GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY! Thank you. Now on with the trial."
I don't know if impartiality is required of the chair in this organization. It certainly isn't on US congressional committees, but a standards organization isn't supposed (in principle, obviously) to be about politics.
I piss off bigots.
Mr. Lassi Nirhamo said: "This is madness! This is blasphemy!" ...
--
we all know how this story ends...
"/0: Paradoxical"
Great Intellect...
Linus!
Delta-Mike November Bravo Tango
ISO and IEC are often very political and feelings often run very high in working groups, though this rarely makes it way to the plenary sessions. People shout. Observers try to intervene and have to be shut up. This guy behaved perfectly properly. Your comment about "decisions as chairman" show a bottomless ignorance of procedure. I can only assume that either you have no experience whatsoever of standards work, or your employer is based in Redmond.
Pining for the fjords
Anyone interested?
Depends. How much does MS pay?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Fire everybody else instead, beginning with who fired him.
OOXML is not just riddled with deficiencies, I also seriously doubt that 6000 pages are not going to contain an awful lot contradictions and conflicts, i.e. make it impossible to comply with by default.
Given that I assume that the task of an ISO committee is ratifying a TECHNICAL standard one would be forgiven to assume that such an evaluation would thus take place on technical grounds.
On that basis it appears that there are an awful lot of YES voters who can be accused of blatant incompetence - there is logically no way they can approve of OOXML if they had really done their job, and the potential economic harm they cause their country is huge. In short, a yes vote means an admittance of incompetence, and those people should be removed.
However - all of that is based on an assumption of clean technical merits. The reality is much more political, which means the whole ISO process is up for questioning now. That's innovation: turn gold into lead, anything you touch. That's MS.
Buy MS, buy business risk. Easy enough, no?
No mod points for the moment, but the parent has made a very good point that made me change my mind about the issue. :-)
Yeah I'm a flip flopper. Heavens forbid that people actually change their mind when presented with another point of view. I guess I'll never be a president now.
This happened in a Finnish bank the other day. A 60-year-old lady walks in. The bank teller cheerfully greets her and starts up a conversation. The customer says her friend just got a haircut just like the teller has. The teller goes, "Oh, do you like it?" The customer answers, "No, I'm looking forward to her hair growing back." Smooth.
Keep in mind that while we are distracted by the ISO circus, M$ has been quietly gnawing away at ITU.
Are we sure that local representatives or local shills of a certain American US vendor did not ring up and say "we don't like this guy"?
My little Linux and tech blog
Mr. Nirhamo is Finnished.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
...and if it wasn't Microsoft's "long reach" to push this guy off, it sure looks like it!
I don't know. I love my country, but it has been increasingly corrupt in the last 2-3 years. I blame it on the influence of some foreign CEOs. My previous employer "Nokia" was fuxored up quite badly, in that period.
Anyways, I'd love to be able to say that in Finland we sort out these kinds of situations, and that justice and truth ultimately prevail. Sadly, I'm not sure anymore.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Outside the USA, few institutions have ever heard of it. The US Congress doesn't use it; each house has its own rules of order.
Good point about the distinction between impartiality and fairness.
I piss off bigots.
Finland is that last place I would have thought that Microsoft would have such power.
+1 Sad
I'm not being an ass; it really is sad. This is happening in every country in the world.
Remember when Judge Jackson told a reporter what he thought of Microsoft coming into his court with blatant lies and fake demonstrations. His ruling was overturned because of his *bias*.
It seems that if you present a laughably fraudulent case, and those evaluating that case can't hold their tongues about how laughably fraudulent it is, you win. Outrageous dishonesty pays off better than simple dishonesty.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
I guess you're arguing semantics, but why not drop the pro-MS spin? How is being pro-quality or pro-open standards "anti-Microsoft"?
Yeah. That's a rhetorical question, they're the same thing. However, people like Mr. Nirhamo are not "anti-MS" for the sake of being "anti-MS". Shit. They're not even "anti-MS" it's just spun that way as a side effect of being infavor of quality, security, standads and a free market.
I admit it. My Finnish is a little rusty.
As the chairman of the committee, he was responsible for shepherding and implementing the decisions of the committee.
As a private citizen he had a good deal of experience and an opinion about which way he would have liked the decision to go.
It is actually standard practice, in this situation, to do precisely what he did.
It is also standard practice, in any real democracy for someone to have an opinion that doesn't jive with that of the majority. The expression of that dissent is not (and should not be), per se, grounds for any sort of retaliation. Unless there was something in his speech that was completely inappropriate that was not mentioned or aluded to in the article, then I would be inclined to say that his firing was very, very bad news for the standards process in Finland.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Perhaps the article is in Swedish, or something?
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
If this situation is really as messed up as seems to be implied by the article, perhaps it would be appropriate for Finland's most famous geek to say a bit about what's been going on?
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
Back in day I was participating in a booze & schmooze portion of a microsoft event where they invited MCPs (I was young and I needed the money). This was the time when the decision had just come down in the US courts to chop up M$ into little pieces a'la Ma Bell (good idea, but as governments change, so do court rulings). Well, we had been encouraged (told even) to let our hair down for the "informal" part of the evening and everyone was a bit into the beers. Naturally the topic came up in conversation and not 10 seconds after I made the chopping-into-slices movement with my hand I had two M$ marketing people in front of me, smiling, asking "What's up, what are you talking about". This was done in the nicest of ways and I had no reason to to keep the topic of the group's conversation a secret. We weren't even bashing MS, we were merely discussing the hot news topic of the day.
I was probably too drunk to smell trouble when they bent down to look at my nametag (it had gone a bit lopsided so you could only read it from below), but I didnt. I left the party and went on my merry way.
Less than a week later I'm summoned to my manager's office. At the time I worked for a large company, but they had a small team working on Microsoft stuff and we were one of MS partners. He sits me down and explains that he'd been to MS Finland and discussed maintaining/upgrading their partnership level. At the conference he'd been told pretty much the following: " --insert my name here--- has been voicing attitudes hostile to Microsoft. This is a funny way to act for an employee of a company that wishes to maintain their partnership status". It's been so many years that I forget the exact details, but I was clearly told by M$ via my manager that if I discuss Microsoft in a way that even approaches negative, they'll make me pay for it.
Needless to say, I soon found a better and more lucrative niche of the IT trade. But to this day this is the only time I've been censored from discussion in Finland. Up to that point I'd always been thinking that the anti-M$ crowd is just a bit too fanatical, that M$ is an bad corp, but it's still staffed by real people. But this event opened my eyes to the fact that M$ marketing is a staffed by truly diabolical people who'll stop at nothing to achieve their ends. As a matter of fact, had my manager not been as nice as he was, I could've ended up being fired. This just to stop me from discussing the biggest IT news item of the time.
So before you take your MCSE examns, stop to think for a while. If you can life with your freedom of speech being limited, then go for it. If not, pick another field.
Novell, again. Sigh.
People take note:
...
Approval:
* Microsoft
* Novell
*
WTF?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Mr. Nirhamo's comment came towards the end of the meeting, following a lenghty discussion in which all participants were permitted to speak. The positions were firmly cemented, and no opinions changed because of the statement. The situation was plainly one of no consensus, which by the rules set at the beginning lead to abstention. One point I've not seen mentioned anywhere is that Mr. Nirhamo said he had discussed the issue with his superiors and recieved permission to make the comment. The actual content was quite brief and technical. He pointed out that he had read parts of the proposal, and found as an expert that it did not meet the requirements for an ISO standard.
Being fair and objective is not the same as not having an opinion. What is expected is to separate your opinion from your duties as chair. This is why and how the protocol of (temporarily) stepping down from the chair to express your opinion became the standard method for a chair to express his/her opinion. That way, the chair isn't able to use the powers of the chair to, for example, allow himself extra time to speak, or to speak out of turn.
Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.