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Who Says 2D Gaming is Dead?

Posted by Zonk on from the it's-alive-i-tell-you-alive dept.

Retro Gaming with Racketboy has up a feature looking at the best modern 2D games out there, all on the PlayStation 2. He highlights the best of every genre, from the modern classic RPG/beat-em-up Odin Sphere to the timeless beauty that is the Metal Slug series. "Disgaea: Hour of Darkness & Disgaea 2: Cursed Memories: Disgaea greatly resembles other strategy RPGs. Its isometric perspective, 3D battlefields, and nice-looking 2D characters are clearly reminiscent of most other games of this type, and on first impression, so is the game's turn-based combat system. However, you'll soon realize that this game actually plays very differently. The gameplay itself is, in a word, weird."

164 comments

  1. Me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Next question?

    1. Re:Me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, somebody's lacking a sense of humor today. Ever heard of a "joke", oh mighty moderator? :p

    2. Re:Me. by 7Prime · · Score: 1

      1. You're logged in AC... people don't usually respond to or mod AC posts. 2. Some people may have taken offense (personally, that was my first incination too, so I think they're stupid to have) 3. unfortunately, your response completely nullifies all "funny" in your first post, which I actually did innitially chuckle at. Thanks

      --
      Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
    3. Re:Me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody had (at the time) had modded down the AC post as "offtopic", which nullifies your first point. For the second point, if we were to mod everything that offended our personal sensibilities down, most of Slashdot would be filtered away into the ether. As for your third point, frankly it makes no sense. Either the joke is funny or it isn't - a subsequent AC response doesn't change that. Overanalyse things much?

  2. SF4 - 2D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Street Fighter 4 is going to be 2D.

    1. Re:SF4 - 2D by radicalskeptic · · Score: 1

      Right--and don't forget about all the other great 2D fighters being released every year!!

      Just this month, Arcana Heart was released for Japanese PS2s, and last month Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core was released domestically. King of Fighters XI was just released stateside and Neo Geo Battle Coliseum is to be released later this month.

      It's kind of a shame that this deep, rewarding genre has been pushed aside here in the US. I think it's a due to a combination of factors, namely: how graphics-oriented gamers are, the fact that arcades are pretty much dead in this country, and that people don't want to have to spend hours and hours to get good at a game.

      --
      WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
    2. Re:SF4 - 2D by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      I think it's a due to a combination of factors, namely: how graphics-oriented gamers are, the fact that arcades are pretty much dead in this country One of the attractions of arcades was that the games hardware was far more technologically advanced than home games consoles. If arcades were still popular in the US and Europe today, gamers would probably want cutting-edge graphics which in practice would be 3D anyway.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    3. Re:SF4 - 2D by radicalskeptic · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in Japan. Arcades foster competition and community, things that fighting games--especially technically demanding ones--need to be playable and fun.

      --
      WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
    4. Re:SF4 - 2D by Bobartig · · Score: 1

      as a gaming genre, the fighter seems to have benefitted very little from advances in 3d. Most mechanics are still based on a series of 1D vectors, rather than exhibiting any true 3 dimensionality. Im curious to see how the capcom team updates their perenial favorite in an industry that uses 3d graphics as some sort of crutch. the sf franchise still sees a lot of play at high level gaming tournaments.

      --
      This is where I get my recommended daily allowance of "Foot in Mouth."
    5. Re:SF4 - 2D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll believe that when I see it. It's being developed by Capcom USA, who now own the rights to SF. I don't see a huge talent of sprite animators coming out of the US, at least nothing that would top SF3.

    6. Re:SF4 - 2D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it? Where did you get this information?

      I only saw a teaser movie, and I fear the worst. :(

    7. Re:SF4 - 2D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Graphics-oriented gamers? I'm very graphics-oriented, and I love 2D games. In fact, in my opinion there is no 3D game in existence that can hold a candle, visually, to the most well-drawn and well-animated 2D games out there.

    8. Re:SF4 - 2D by Hsien-Ko · · Score: 1

      Kinda hard to dig facts out of one sole teaser video.

    9. Re:SF4 - 2D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have zero confidence in Capcom USA. They have never produced a proper sequel to any inherited license. They have the reverse-Midas touch.

      Street Fighter went out with a bang on Third Strike, though I prefer CvS and SFA anyway.

    10. Re:SF4 - 2D by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I've been wondering about Arcana Heart. Is it good?

      The pushing away was probably caused by SCEA's rejection policies more than gamers.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    11. Re:SF4 - 2D by LKM · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So are a ton of Wii games, and probably more than half of all DS games. I love those two consoles, they are the last bastion of 2D gaming. After this generation ends, so does a huge part of 2D gaming. Even cell phones have 3D games now :-(

    12. Re:SF4 - 2D by aplusjimages · · Score: 1

      2D is still popular in the US it's just for casual gaming now. Look at Xbox Live Arcade or Nintendo's Virtual Console. Most mobile games are still 2D and a lot of the flash games I play at work are 2D. Most of the games on the DS are 2d and the DS sells 400,000 units per month. These games are still fun, but they just don't get the spotlight and media attention anymore.

      --
      Can I bum a sig?
    13. Re:SF4 - 2D by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be an issue in Japan. True, but Japanese tastes are often very different to European and US ones, which probably reflects the major underlying cultural differences (despite the superficial hyper-Westernised appearance).

      Basically, there's a whole load of weird shit that is massively successful in Japan that doesn't play nearly so well elsewhere.
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    14. Re:SF4 - 2D by FigTree · · Score: 1

      I want to start seeing more games without any graphics (or at least unneeded to play) personally. SoundVoyager is one of the most fun games I've played in recent years and is meant to be played with your eyes closed using headphones.

  3. Disgaea by Prien715 · · Score: 1

    Disgaea is 2D in the same way that Wolfenstein 3D (and Doom 2) are 2D...as in, they just use sprites.

    --
    -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    1. Re:Disgaea by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That really isn't the characteristic that makes a game 2d. Commander keen starting at IV was 2d, but it had a small amount of perspective in the backgrounds, and the player could effectively go behind in certain spots. It also had parallax, but it was still a 2d game because the character could just move in a single plane which was aligned with the monitor's plane.

      In contrast games like w3d, lethal tender, ROT were all 3d games, the character could move on a plane that ran perpendicular to the monitor and each room had a hight to it. Sprites just sucked, but they were necessary, as w3d could barely handle the texture mapping, it couldn't handle the sector based enemies that would pop up in later games. Of course eventually the height became more than just for looks, one could jump and move up/down stares, but that was more for flexibility than definition.

    2. Re:Disgaea by Victor+Antolini · · Score: 1

      What makes a game 3d? To me, Wolfenstein 3D looks as tridimensional as Half Life 2 (excluding the obvious quality, detail performance, etc.)
      If what I'm perceiving feels or looks like 3d, doesn't that make it 3d, regardless of whatever technique used?
      At least on my frame of reference!

    3. Re:Disgaea by cerelib · · Score: 1

      If you are classifying a 2D game as confining the player movement to a single plane, then Wolfenstein 3D fits that category. If you remember, rooms in W3D had no real "height". All rooms were the same height and the player could not move up and down (i.e. jump or climb). W3D is just Gauntlet from a first-person perspective. As you said, "a plane that ran perpendicular to the monitor", but it was still a single plane.

    4. Re:Disgaea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's nitpicking, I actually was shorthanding wolfenstein 3d down to w3d, I thought the context was sufficient.

    5. Re:Disgaea by Jartan · · Score: 1

      That is not how 2d is classified. 2d in graphical terms usually means something like the client does not store 3d data and then try to depict it differently based on where the games camera is situated relevant to the object.

      This is why Doom/Wolfenstein etc are often called 2.5d or some such.

    6. Re:Disgaea by cerelib · · Score: 1

      Huh? I was using W3D as shorthand for Wolfenstein 3D as well. What did you think I was talking about when I said W3D?

    7. Re:Disgaea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even so, both Disgaea and Phantom Brave have height, the characters were 2D sprites, but the world and the game system extended in all three dimensions (no different from Final Fantasy Tactics, except that Disgaea and PB let you stack people up instead of having one critter per square ;)

      Of course, 2D or 3D, both games were really, really good, and anyone who enjoys RPGs and is willing to let the game tell them a story (as opposed to complaining about how they want more control) should give them a shot (Disgaea first, though Phantom Brave is much shorter). Nippon Ichi was really good at balancing the game to minimize the amount of grinding you need to do in order to complete the games (though if you want to get all of Disgaea's alternate endings, you're going to have to put well over 100 hours on the clock).

    8. Re:Disgaea by interiot · · Score: 1

      W3D is just Gauntlet from a first-person perspective. As you said, "a plane that ran perpendicular to the monitor", but it was still a single plane.

      But that, along with being first-person, made all the difference. Yes, W3D didn't have stairs or crossing paths, but the feel of the game was still much more like a proper 3D FPS than Gauntlet... at the time, it seemed FAR more immersive than third-person games.

    9. Re:Disgaea by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Wolf 3D uses 2d gameplay, there is no height. That may be Doom you're thinking of, it uses height differences but still only has sprites representing everything.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    10. Re:Disgaea by heinousjay · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      If I want to be told a story, I watch a movie. Games are for playing.

      This is especially relevant when considering how poor the story telling is in games. Typically, it's about on the level of daytime soaps, with blunt emotional manipulation and the sort of twists that would get rejected in a script for being too obvious.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    11. Re:Disgaea by LKM · · Score: 1

      So by that logic, Zelda: Phantom Hourglass would be a 2D game???

    12. Re:Disgaea by cerelib · · Score: 1

      The point I was making was addressing the idea that a game is 2D because of being confined to a single plane of movement. Under such a definition, Wolfenstein 3D is really only a 2D game with a different perspective (first-person) while a game like the original Doom was actually 3D because you were not confined to a single plane of movement. So it all comes down to the question of what classifies a game as 3D? We have accepted that it is not the use of 3D models because many early games used 2D sprites. That really only leaves us with control mechanics. By that definition, Wolfenstein 3D is really only a 2D game, but it might have some nuance that makes it an exception to the rule. The challenge is to classify that property.

    13. Re:Disgaea by EggyToast · · Score: 1

      It's a good point, especially to back up the fact that just because something is named "3D" doesn't make it actually 3d. If anything, they added it to the name to give the impression that the visuals had "depth" to them. Real 3d games (like Doom) didn't need to add 3d to the title.

    14. Re:Disgaea by sYkSh0n3 · · Score: 1

      Seems like I always remember hearing Doom referred to as 2.5D. Because while objects width and depth, they all had infinite height. Nothing could ever be placed over something, and you didn't have to aim up and down.

    15. Re:Disgaea by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So it all comes down to the question of what classifies a game as 3D? We have accepted that it is not the use of 3D models because many early games used 2D sprites. That really only leaves us with control mechanics.

      Hey, just because the enemies in Wolf3D and Doom were sprites, doesn't mean they weren't 3D! Was their position described in terms of 2D screen coordinates or 3D level space? Did the levels have 3D geometry? Could you aim up and down, as well as left and right (thereby requiring vectors representing shot trajectories to be 3D)? Any of those things would cause the games to be classified as 3D, from a technical perspective.

      Now, if you want to classify games instead by the way they look, lots of even really old games could be 3D. Take racing games on the Super Nintendo, for instance. Even though the console was entirely 2D, games like F-Zero and Mario Kart allowed apparent movement in all three directions (movement down the track, side-to-side movement, and jumping). Heck, Top Gear for the SNES even had hills! And even Pole Position had the same sort of perspective (but had neither jumps nor hills).

      So, what's the answer? I say that either the distinction should be based on whether the game world is described in terms of 3D space (whether it uses sprites or not), or all of these games -- from Pole Position to Doom -- should be classified as "2.5D."

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    16. Re:Disgaea by scot4875 · · Score: 1

      They needed the "3D" on the title because a game called Wolfenstein already existed.

      Wolf3D was a 3D game. It was a primitive 3D game, but a 3D game nonetheless. And, the only difference between Wolf3D and Doom was that in Doom, you could fall off of or be blocked by a ledge. You were still restricted to only controlling yourself in the X/Z plane. (yes, that's oversimplifying the improvements in the Doom engine)

      If you want the first first-person game engine that actually rendered arbitrary polygons, that would probably be either Ultima Underworld 1 or 2 or Quake.

      --Jeremy

      --
      Jesus was a liberal
    17. Re:Disgaea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hey, just because the enemies in Wolf3D and Doom were sprites, doesn't mean they weren't 3D! Was their position described in terms of 2D screen coordinates or 3D level space?

      Actually both those games used 2D coordinate systems for their sprites. Wolf3D was almost completely 2D as everything was on one level. Doom however introduced platforms. And sprites could be up or down in relation to you but their co-ordinates where still 2D.

      Did the levels have 3D geometry?

      Not in Wolf3D. Doom had for each area a floor height and a ceiling height.

      Could you aim up and down, as well as left and right (thereby requiring vectors representing shot trajectories to be 3D)?

      You could not aim up or down or even jump in either game. But because of the way doom worked some projectiles did move up and down, like rockets and fireballs. But still the only real use of 3D was really in rendering.

      Also in Doom there was a restriction in not having one object on top of another in relation to monsters and players. Guns, ammo and dead bodies seemed to be the exception to this. Later games from the Doom codebase (Heretic, Hexen) removed these restrictions, Hexen allowed you to jump.

      This is why Quake was considered the first proper ID 3D Game. It also removed the restrictions on level design that plagued the Doom codebase. Just try to design a two story building in a Doom level. Where you can stand on both the floors, not really possible.

      Of course Quake was not the first 3D game by a long shot that goes back before even Elite. I would call both Wolf3D and Doom Pseudo 3D but thats just me.

      Also don't confuse perspective in games for 3D. A 2D shooter with parallax mountains scrolling in the distance does not a 3D game make. The same goes for Pole Position. Consider Isometric view games like UFO X-COM, was that a 3D Game? It certainly was not 2D. I think the measuring rule is do in game objects travel in the third dimension? And is it possible to rewrite the game easily as a pure 2D game with no 3D graphics? You could actually do that to Doom and Pole Position but not to Quake or UFO.

      This entire discussion makes me want to play starglider

  4. Personally... by dreddnott · · Score: 1

    I was ready to bid a fond farewell to 2D gaming when SNK died six years ago. That was a pretty sad moment, but I was proven wrong many times over since then.

    --
    I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.
  5. It will always be alive by MLCT · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Despite having around a dozen modern games installed on my machine at the moment (and that ranges from Civ4, through HL2 and ending up at Simpson's Hit & run) I just spent the last two hours playing Lemmings. Enjoyable, engaging, straightforward and fun. I can play it while running 5 other things & it doesn't take over my system. I don't know what the "kidz" today would make of a basic 2D game like Lemmings - it would be interesting to see if games of that time really have something special, or if I am just being nostalgic.

    1. Re:It will always be alive by Threni · · Score: 1

      What happened to text adventures? I used to love them. Whenever I mention them to people there's a 10% chance someone will say `you can still get them - look for Interactive Fiction on the net`, and I have to remind them that I don't mean really shit games with no graphics - I mean stuff like Infocom games, or those for the BBC Micro like Philosopher's Quest.

    2. Re:It will always be alive by xtracto · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I just spent the last two hours playing Lemmings. Enjoyable, engaging, straightforward and fun

      Aaaah, lemmings, probably on of the beset puzzle games ever created. I loved the SNES port for the multiplayer gameplay. Games like lemmings show you how a 500KB game can be more entertaining and have more replay time than a full blown 2 DVD game...

      Personally, I prefer 2D games, nowadays I play a lot of Worms (or the open source equivalent Wormux) with my girlfriend and it is one of the only games where we have real fun and can "share" videogame time playing together.

      In contrast, I have a lot of problems getting used to some 3D games, specially those where you have to calculate the depth for some kind of jump or other action, for example, in Super Mario 64 I just cant get used handle Mario accurately because of the depth... similarly with Wii's Zelda and others. I have had the same problems while playing Unreal Tournament or other FPS games.

      I don't know what the "kidz" today would make of a basic 2D game like Lemmings - it would be interesting to see if games of that time really have something special, or if I am just being nostalgic.

      Some kids today do enjoy those kind of games, and, if you've got a kid and spend quality time playing such games (for example, each time your kid completes a Lemmings scenario, give him a prize) they will like it more. And the educational value is huge. It is similar to the situation I have encountered several times when you put a kid in front of the computer so he can spend some time (with internet, games and whatnot) and after you return he has the MS Paint (or KolourPaint) opened and has spent some time drawing whatever his imagination told him. It is really cool to see that the simplest things can make kids happy.

      BTW, I would *really* recommend the Lemmings Revolution game if you like lemmings. Unlike most of the other Lemmings sequels, this one is pseudo-3d, this is, the controls and all are the same as in the original game but you have some extra things (like two races of lemmings). The game has completely new levels (something difficult to find if you have played all the levels from the original game) and the 3D factor is done by placing the scenario as a cylinder that is rotated when you "scroll" the scenario.

      Unfortunately I have not been able to play it under WINE...

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    3. Re:It will always be alive by towster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I must admit I liked lemmings but..
      The incredible machine was even more fun to me..
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incredible_Machine
      I wish they still made games like that..

    4. Re:It will always be alive by mattack2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "You can still get them..."

      http://www.ifarchive.org/

      There are some that various reviewers have said are as good as the Infocom games. Also, using the Inform programming language ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inform ), you can write games that will play on all Infocom interpreters.

    5. Re:It will always be alive by Iwanowitch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hmm, let me be the 10%... Shit games? Have you played some of the 'classics' of the new wave of IFs? Things like Photopia, All Things Devours, Slouching Towards Bedlam, Metamorphoses, Shade or Vespers? Or whatever the latest IF competition is going to yield?

      Seriously, these things are worth your time. Not as big and time-consuming as the old Infocom classics, I agree. But they do what they have to do (entertain you for a few hours) and the price is right. Damn better than most of the commercial games these days.

      --
      One CS student VS 893 DOS games: Let's play oldies
    6. Re:It will always be alive by Mark+J+Tilford · · Score: 1

      Go to http://ifcomp.org/ for this year's IF competition, if you'd like to judge.

      --
      -----------
      100% pure freak
    7. Re:It will always be alive by quanticle · · Score: 1

      Kids these days like "old-style" games just fine. I have a little brother whose first experience with games was the PS2. His current favorite game: SuperBomberman on the SNES emulator.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    8. Re:It will always be alive by kc2keo · · Score: 1

      I know that I played games that not many people I know of played.

    9. Re:It will always be alive by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's a clone called Crazy Machines, CM2 came out not too long ago AFAIK. No idea if it stacks up to TIM but it's probably not expensive to try it.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    10. Re:It will always be alive by eht · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you liked that you might like Armadillo Run or Pontifex One or Two. OK they drift from 2D, but are still very fun construction type games.

    11. Re:It will always be alive by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 1

      Ziggy is still down

    12. Re:It will always be alive by desenz · · Score: 1

      I love the chronic logic bridging games! My favorite being Bridge Construction Set, because it has clients available for Windows, Linux and OSX. Under 20MB, and entertaining for hours. Frustrating at times, but thats part of the fun, or so I'm told... But really, this will run on damn near any computer. Its 3D also, but very basic. Turning off shadows and reflections helps. http://chroniclogic.com/bcs_download.htm --- Demo.

    13. Re:It will always be alive by FigTree · · Score: 1

      I completely forgot about The Incredible Machine but you just brought back a lot of great memories. My elementary school had it on most of their computers and if we finished our work early the computers were open for stuff like TIM and Sim Farm on a first come first server basis... Me and my friends got a lot of work done. :)

    14. Re:It will always be alive by FigTree · · Score: 1

      If you have a DS and a way to play homebrew Lemmings DS is an excellent port. Not only is it a great bathroom game using a stylus is so much nicer than a mouse.

    15. Re:It will always be alive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know I can't speak for everyone here, but I suspect that most of us don't really give a shit. Why did you even bother to post that? I know I'm not contributing anything useful to this discussion, but I'm only replying to your useless statement. Does it make you feel better to tell people that you are somehow different? Most games that most people haven't played mostly suck. That's why nobody plays them. Except for you. Because you're unique, just like everyone else.

  6. 2D is dead, this list proves it by grumbel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Half the games on that list aren't even fully 2D, but 3D with restricted movement. The other half is made up of decade old series or derivatives from them (Street Fighter, MetalSlug). Original 2D games are near non-existent these days, except for a few ones left on the DS, but even there its mostly sequels or already 3D or well, both (Metroid, Zelda:PH).

    I do love 2D games, but there really isn't much at all left these days, especially when you want original content instead of just some new food to celebrate nostalgia.

    1. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by CSFFlame · · Score: 0

      Odin Sphere is a very good 2D only game. The lag in some of the fights is ridiculous though (it's just sprites wtc?)

    2. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by radicalskeptic · · Score: 1

      Original 2D games are near non-existent these days, except for a few ones left on the DS

      You're just wrong about that. 2D fighters are alive and well, with updates and completely new games coming out every year. I can name half a dozen current franchises off the top of my head. We're an underground community in the US, but the games are much more mainstream in Japan, where the arcade scene hasn't died off.

      --
      WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
    3. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by Sigma+7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most 2D games are being produced by "independent" developers. You can find most of these games by going to various flash portal websites rather than looking in the local stores.

      As an alternative to flash portals, you can subscribe to sites that specialize in looking for these style of games. I have indygamer.blogspot.com in a list of rotation sites I have - you can probably find others from that site as well.

      Even though it's not technically 2D, IFComp07 just released a batch of short adventures. If Interactive Fiction has that level of activity, 2D games have it as well.

    4. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by NTiOzymandias · · Score: 1

      Two words: Cave Story.

      Granted, your use of the term "few" still applies, but it really, really deserves a mention.

    5. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Does Paper Mario count as a 2D game? (With the exception of the latest Wii installment) It has basically the same level setup as Ninja Turtles where you can move up, down, back, forth, and jump. The only thing 3d are the transitions.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    6. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by grumbel · · Score: 1

      Super Paper Mario, just like New Super Mario Bros., is a games that celebrates the good old times and little else, which is ok, but on its however neither really is all that good, they are not, bad but they don't hold a candle against a MarioBros3 or Yoshis Island. And that is basically the problem I have. When there is a new 2D game these days, it is either some tribute to an old classic, a sequel/update (StreetFigtherHD) or something of those new "abstract" games, where you have a lot of colorful shapes (everyday shooter, geometry wars, etc.), but little if anything in terms of character and story.

      Now there is nothing wrong with any of this by itself, but I miss the days where you had your set of nice looking hand-pixeled characters, a little story and a colorful world to explore. 2D itself might not be dead, but pixelart is certainly on its deathbed.

    7. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1
      I disagree about NSMB. That game was better than Yoshi's Island, imo (to be fair, I didn't like Yoshi's Island), and probably as good as SMB3. It's a great game which brings back the fun Mario gameplay we know and love, its only flaw is that it's a bit short.

      Super Paper Mario, on the other hand, is a whole different ball of wax. I don't compare it to classic Mario games because I don't think it's trying to emulate them, it's doing its own thing.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    8. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by zerocool^ · · Score: 1


      Well, there are some fighting games that are 2d and are kinda new. Capcom vs. SNK 2 is a PS2 game that I enjoy, and it's 2d. In fact, the only time I've seen a street fighter game in 3d, it was awful.

      But otherwise, I agree. To be honest, Disgaia is not really 2d, especially since you can rotate the grid for another view when positioning your people. And there are some cut sequences that are rendered in 3d.

      The nintendo DS is where the 2d games are these days for sure. And Nintendo has realized what people reading this discussion will eventually agree upon: 2d games are *mostly* dead. There exists a small, but powerful and willing-to-spend-money niche, for 2d games. Nintendo knows this and is giving these niche users what they want, while at the same time liberating cash from their wallets. The system is at equilibrium.

      --
      sig?
    9. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of indie games in 2d but of course we aren't talking about those here, right?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    10. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever heard of mobile phones? Flash games? Card games? Online board games? Hell, even the Orange Box contains Peggle Extreme, which is very much a 2D puzzle game. 2D games are very much alive, there just aren't many multi-million dollar projects for them anymore.

    11. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by LKM · · Score: 1

      Super Paper Mario, just like New Super Mario Bros., is a games that celebrates the good old times and little else, which is ok, but on its however neither really is all that good

      Of course they are no Super Mario Bros 3, but they're still in the top 1% of all games released in the last decade, in my opinion.

      But yeah, you're right. 2D has had a kind of revival in the last years (due to the Wii, due to online console game stores, due to flash games, and due to the incredible success of the DS9), but I think it's not sustainable. Once the current gen ends and the Wii and the DS disappear, 80% of all 2D games - especially new franchises - will go with them.

    12. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because they're dead doesn't mean it's with good reason... it's why games like Symphony of the Night are still lauded amongst all the new generation games... they're few and far between but gamers still remember them and hold onto them whenever they appear. It's game development companies that have a hard time justifying developing a 2D game to the marketing departments. Look at how gamers are getting ready for SF2 in HD (redone sprites in high res). People want to see old 2D games re-made (they already know asking for new 2D games is unfortunately too much to ask).

    13. Re:2D is dead, this list proves it by cachimaster · · Score: 0

      Checkout LocoRoco for PsP, and it's so good that is coming for PS3 this year.

  7. Who says 2d gaming is dead? by ShadowMarth · · Score: 1

    Idiots, that's who. I've played a lot of good 2D games recently. They're still fun. Played the new Castlevania games? New Super Mario Bros? Then again, I do have a friend who essentially shuns all non-3d games. Not saying he's not an idiot though.

    1. Re:Who says 2d gaming is dead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, those new Castlevania games with the exact same gameplay from SOTN sure are fun. Hell, they even re-use the majority of the sprites now!

    2. Re:Who says 2d gaming is dead? by ShadowMarth · · Score: 1

      You obviously didn't play them. They are similar in the sense that they are in the same game series, and the same genre, but other than that there are wide differences in the gameplay. The soul system, for instance.

    3. Re:Who says 2d gaming is dead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Idiots, that's who. You mean Sony? They've priced themselves out of the market of people who play 2D games, after all.
  8. I don't. by improfane · · Score: 1

    Some of them actually use 3D graphics for all of the visuals, but keep the gameplay in a 2D perspective.
    I find it odd that there are 3D games locked in 2D perspective. Baldur's gate, Dark Alliance on playstation was is in 3D but locked into a perspective where it's cool graphics had no justice.

    As for real 2D games: A while back I got NetHack to see what the fuss was about. I was confused at first, the appeal was lost to me. I've tried playing again since and enjoying it. The game isn't about the graphics.

    Another brilliant 2D game is The Ur Quan Masters, an open source version derived from Star Control II. http://sc2.sourceforge.net/

    Also do not forget the Pokemon series.

    This is not an old person speaking and I think that shows that 2D games are here for stay.
    --
    Slashdot needs Geekcode | Can anyone recommend any good SCIFI? My tastes: Foundation, Startide Rising, CITY, Ringworld,
    1. Re:I don't. by uucp2 · · Score: 1

      As for real 2D games: A while back I got NetHack to see what the fuss was about. I was confused at first, the appeal was lost to me.

      No wonder you were confused; Nethack is 3D. Don't tell me you never escaped a hopeless situation by zapping a Wand of Digging to '>' direction.

  9. Back in my day games were all 1D by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

    and that's the way we liked it! Oh, the times we'd spend in between shifts in the poison mines, playing Dots on a Line...

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Back in my day games were all 1D by LKM · · Score: 1

      You had it good! We only got 0D, and we still had to walk upwards both ways, in the winter, and the snow was twenty foot deep in all available dimensions!

    2. Re:Back in my day games were all 1D by steveo777 · · Score: 1

      Quoth "Wierd" Al Yankovich. "We didn't have Nintendo, we just poured salt on snails."

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
  10. Fighters by Muffinmasher · · Score: 1

    If you want proof that 2d games aren't dead, look no further than the fighting genre. Although more and more 3d fighters such as Tekken and Soul Calibur are being churned out all the time, they still can't match the depth and originality of the Guilty Gear series (Full 2d) or the pick up and play fun of Smash Bros. (3d in a 2d playing field)

    --
    Schrödinger's download is slow.
    1. Re:Fighters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please, do tell - what depth is there to Guilty Gear that can't also be found in Soul Calibur 2?

    2. Re:Fighters by Muffinmasher · · Score: 1

      Cancels, longer combos, air combos, dust moves, counters, Psyche bursts all translate into a much deeper game with more varied approaches to different situations. I will admit that every fighter I've ever played eventually devolves into get an opening so you can do combo 1, 2, or 3, but more posibilities and tactics exist for Guilty Gear than for any other fighting game I've played (And I've played a fair few).

      --
      Schrödinger's download is slow.
    3. Re:Fighters by The13thSin · · Score: 1

      Except for dust moves & psyche bursts (I have no idea what those 2 are) they can in fact all be found in Soul Caliber. Then again, SC and most good 3D fighting games aren't really 3D in controls... just that you have another way to evade. Of course the representation is definately 3D.

      --
      "This should be fun, and by fun, I mean a wholly depressing insight into the cognitive ability of some grown adults."
    4. Re:Fighters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you apparently equate depth with 'number of moves' or something. For me depth means how intricate the system gets, and not in terms of raw permutations. For example:

      Level 1 - I can pummel you with attacks
      Level 2 - I can block your attacks and retaliate
      Level 3 - I can use an unblockable attack to bypass your guard
      Level 4 - I can counter your unblockable attacks with good timing
      Level 5 - I can fake/cancel a move to throw off your timing, leaving you open to a more thorough attack
      Level 6 - ???
      (There is no Profit level)

      Moving on to the list you gave:
      Cancels - already in all SC games.

      Longer combos - does not make the game 'deeper', it just defines how long you can punish your opponent for screwing up.

      Air combos - equivalent to juggling (besides which, whether juggling or using a ground-based punishment combo, it is no improvement on gameplay depth, merely different animations you can watch).

      Dust moves - just a set up move for an air combo, doesn't increase depth.

      Counters - present in various forms in SC.

      Psyche bursts - I might be tempted to consider this, as it opens up entirely new possibilities depending on how it's used and when, but in the end it is the same as restricting the set of moves available. This concept is present in SC games in various forms, and assuming the new moves still have the same options for blocking or countering, it doesn't really add to the depth so much as just the complexity of mastering a character.

    5. Re:Fighters by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      And while you're at it, try Bleach DS. Sounds like crap because it's a licensed game and carries the Sega name but they put Treasure on the job and the result is pure awesome. Even has ranked online play.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  11. What about Maple Story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Odd not to include something like MapleStory with its 50 million users worldwide.

    1. Re:What about Maple Story? by samwh · · Score: 3, Funny

      49 million bots don't count.

    2. Re:What about Maple Story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really. Once you mape, your butthole will gape, and shortly after you will be committing some child rape. I'm guessing the author didn't want to be associated with that sort of pedophilia. It's disgusting, really.

      Furthermore, the article reviews some of the best 2D games. If you've ever played Maple-Gaple-Raple Story, then you'd have vomited your stomach out by now. I played it and now I'm on life support for the rest of my life. Worst game ever.

  12. How the hell can you... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 5, Funny

    play Lemmings while running 5 other things? I have a hard enough time running 5 things within Lemmings, let alone 5 things in addition to that game!

    1. Re:How the hell can you... by IgLou · · Score: 2, Funny

      Silly lemming! It's easy to do when you play to kill the lemmings!

      What? There's another goal to the game?

      --

      Oops, how did this get here?
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  13. DS by vertinox · · Score: 1

    Personally, I like the DS because of its plethora of 2d games. Mostly this is because of a hardware limitation but I think 2d games still have its place. I really miss hand drawn games like Monkey Island as well.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    1. Re:DS by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of good 3D games for the DS. It could probably run a port of any Nintendo 64 title.

      The difference is that back in the N64 days, 3D games were the new thing... it was one of the main selling points, the whole new dimension, etc. Nowadays we see that we're nowhere near the bottom of the 2D barrel yet.

      And in regards to your last comment... you might find this interesting.

    2. Re:DS by DreadSpoon · · Score: 1

      Many of those "2D" games are probably at least partially 3D. Yeah, there are pure 2D games on DS, but most of them use a lot of 3D background or sprite elements mixed in with all the 2D.

    3. Re:DS by jmauro · · Score: 1

      I think it's more the control setup with the touch screen than the processing power that provides most of the 2D action. That's why so many more "2D" DS games are made vice 3D games.

    4. Re:DS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out the game And Yet It Moves. Very much hand-drawn. Looks fantastic, and it plays really well, too.

  14. Descriptive by Boronx · · Score: 4, Funny

    The gameplay itself is, in a word, weird.

    That one word description is, in a word, non-descriptive.

    --
    Play Command HQ online
    1. Re:Descriptive by Gideon+Fubar · · Score: 1

      how about.. The gameplay makes me sweaty. In the pants.

      --
      http://www.xkcd.com/354/
    2. Re:Descriptive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about.. The gameplay makes me sweaty. In the pants.

      You've got that right. See, Disgaea just ain't for little kids, content to play with their little numbers. Damage caps at 9999? Whazza madder, widdle baby can't count to ten thousand? Pfft, sure, you've got your damage limit break skills and items in your toy games, that gets you to what, 99999, if you spend hours to get your character up to Lv 99? Speaking of which, what's with that level cap? Seriously, Laharl can gain 200 levels in a single attack. Level 99 is for little kids and pussies, it's like playing Imperishable Night on easy mode: fine for elementary schoolgirls, but you call yourself a man? How disgusting! Now, I'll admit here that I wasn't always the man I am now. I played my final fantasies and seiken densetsus (lol 999 damage cap, in giant red numbers like that's special) and I LOLed at Disgaea too, like I'm sure you are now. But then I played it. I remember the day I hit level 100, I was fighting some level 150 demons inside a longsword, a couple of them were standing too close together and I nailed them both in a single attack. Ding! I hadn't even thought it was possible, but that was just the start. Then there was the time I broke 10000 damage. I nearly pissed myself watching the numbers pop up. It was thrilling, it was a rush... let me tell you, the numbers weren't the only thing that popped up. Oh, but that wasn't the end of it. I was addicted, bigger and bigger numbers. And then, then I broke 100000. That was the day I became a real man. Watching the digits pop up on the screen after a satisfying combo attack: 143K. My mind was blown, my britches soiled, my childhood innocence... gone. Never again would I be able to settle for those childish toy games of days gone by.

      Oh, and Fallen Angel Flonne is hot.

    3. Re:Descriptive by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Nice Touhou reference in there but I wonder if larger numbers really warrant calling the game fundamentally different. Personally I got bored with the game pretty early, probably not even lv20 on my highest chars (or 1-2 levels above that?) and a constant need to level to continue with the campaign. Levels don't seem to come faster than in other games so the lack of a level cap just means more time spent to keep up with the required levels.

      Then again the only other SRPG I've played was FFTA and I got bored with that much faster, didn't even change equipment once on my units.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    4. Re:Descriptive by twoallbeefpatties · · Score: 1

      And the gameplay of Disgaea really isn't, well, weird. The storyline is. The characters are unique and the dialogue can be hilarious. The gameplay, however, can be summed up as, "Move next to a guy and hit him. And if any of your teammates are standing next to you, you get a bonus!" And by the way, the job system in that game is horrible - your boxer character has evolved into a... nother boxer character with the exact same moves! And now you get to go back and grind it back up from level 1 again! I've heard a lot of people hype Disgaea as the next big RPG series, but I've also met a handful of people who, like myself, just quit at a certain point and couldn't continue playing.

      --
      Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
  15. 2D Games Are The Greatest! by billy901 · · Score: 1

    I remember the first time I played Super Mario Bros. on my uncles Nintendo! That was the best game I ever played. I've played Grand Theft Auto, plenty of racing games and Super Mario Bros. is still the best. You just can't find the original version anywhere these days! I think a great idea for the original game makers would be to release the original version. That was the only good Mario game, everything after that had was too complex (for a Mario game.) I also liked Pong. It gets boring and repetitive after a while and is nowhere as good as Super Mario Bros. but it was fun.

    3D games are plenty of fun too. Has anyone ever played Nexuiz? It's an open source 3D first person shooter similar to Quake and Unreal Tournament. Very fun! It works on Macintosh, Windows, and Linux. I would recommend it to anyone.

    --
    Please visit http://www.mederbil.com/ i7, GTX 275, 4 1TB Caviar Green in RAID 0+1 array, EVGA X58 3X SLI Board, Silver
    1. Re:2D Games Are The Greatest! by vux984 · · Score: 1

      You just can't find the original version anywhere these days! I think a great idea for the original game makers would be to release the original version.

      Nintendo is one step ahead of you. Its available as a 500 point download on the Wii virtual console. (approx $5)

      100% complete. And the Wii remote held sideways works brilliantly as a classic NES controller, and is wireless. I spend almost as much time playing Virtual Console games like R-Type, Gradius, Super Mario Brothers, Galaga, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Lode Runner as I do playing Wii titles.

      I also liked Pong. It gets boring and repetitive after a while and is nowhere as good as Super Mario Bros. but it was fun.

      I was never a fan of Pong, but I still enjoy Arkanoid and Breakout style games which are obvious pong derivatives.

    2. Re:2D Games Are The Greatest! by Gothic_Walrus · · Score: 1

      Super Mario Bros. is still the best. You just can't find the original version anywhere these days! ...Are you joking? The game has been rereleased at least three times in physical form (Super Mario All Stars, Super Mario Deluxe, and the Classic NES GBA port) and has been for sale on the Virtual Console since it launched. Hell, even ten years ago the game was as common as dirt - Funcoland used to sell the Mario/Duck Hunt cart for $0.29 in the mid-nineties, and most stores had at least five or ten copies of it just sitting on the shelves.

      If it wasn't for the fact that you suggested a FPS that (as far as I know) isn't common knowledge, I'd write this off as a joke post, but now I'm just confused. o_0
      --
      Goo goo g'joob.
    3. Re:2D Games Are The Greatest! by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      To be honest the only reason I was ever remotely excited about the Revolution ... I mean Wii ... was the possibility of playing virtual console games. When all the ones I want are available, I might even pick one up.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  16. best games EVER by ILuvRamen · · Score: 1

    No modern games actual gameplay can hold a torch to the Phantasy Star series on Sega Genesis or the Exile/Avernum series for the computer. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I played the, as a kid so I'm biased but last time my MMORPG was having weeks of issues, I played Exile 3 again and liked it a lot better.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
  17. Here's who: by sokoban · · Score: 1

    3d Game makers
    Video Card makers
    Processor makers
    OS makers trying to push new 3d APIs down our throats

    There's still plenty of fun to be had in 2D, but it doesn't really "sell" systems and it means you have to compete on how fun a game is rather than how good the graphics are.

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 is the magic number.
  18. No mention of Live Arcade? by Brigade · · Score: 2, Informative

    Plenty of great 2-D games on Arcade all original .. suprised no one has mentioned them yet.

    Aegis Wing - 2d Shooter for free dreamed up by a team of interns.
    Alien Hominid - not just fun side-scroller but with a fantastic art style.
    Heavy Weapon - Cute 2d shooter with a nice sense of humor.
    Small Arms - Smash Bros.-esque multiplayer fighter with guns.

    Those are just the ones I've played .. all under 50MB, not including the re-releases of old classics. And there's still a plethora of great 2D Flash games for free all over the internet. Plus the achievements drive me to play them (and re-play them) more than any other 2D game has before. I can honestly say that I haven't touched any of the Mario Bros. games after completion unless it was for nostalgia.

    1. Re:No mention of Live Arcade? by nuzak · · Score: 1

      Don't forget Cloning Clyde!

      Alien Hominid is cute, but boy is it punishing.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    2. Re:No mention of Live Arcade? by SpeckledJim · · Score: 1

      Not to be picky, but Cloning Clyde is 3D, it's just the action all takes place on one plane. However he did leave off the finest game available on Live Arcade, Geometry Wars Retro Evolved.

  19. Odin Sphere by LionKimbro · · Score: 1

    My girlfriend and daughter beg me to play Odin Sphere every single day. I'd rather be programming, but invariably: "Lioooon, would you play Odin Sphere?"

    It's a beautiful and gorgeous game. I highly recommend it to all story gamers (Final Fantasy and the like.) Also to puzzlers, because inventory management & alchemy (making potions) is pretty involving.

    Yes, it's weird-- read the Penny Arcade comic on it. It's not actually as weird as they made it out to be, once you acclimate to it. But, yes: You grow plants made out of the souls of the people you've killed, and then turn them into salads at the Pooka village kitchen, thus leveling up your hit points.

    I'm presently halfway through the Pooka prince's first set. (A little bit past that video, actually, is where I'm at.)

    1. Re:Odin Sphere by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I was impressed at how badly they were able to make a 2d sprite game run on PS2 hardware. Slowdowns are inevitable in parts of the game (underworld especially) and some of the boss battles are basically guaranteed slowdown. There are also some fairly fundamental gameplay flaws IMHO (block and attack on the same button) but it does look absolutely beautiful. Since Altus is publishing it you can pretty much guarantee that it will be a rare game in a year or so and fetch a decent price on the used market.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Odin Sphere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are also some fairly fundamental gameplay flaws IMHO (block and attack on the same button)

      I don't think this is really much of a flaw, considering that only two of the five characters can even block, and there is generally something else you can do that's a better strategy.

    3. Re:Odin Sphere by LionKimbro · · Score: 1
      ...and some of the boss battles are basically guaranteed slowdown.

      Oh yes, I was quite grateful for that feature.

      If you aren't hooked by Odin Sphere's unique visual style, then you'll be grabbed by its classic sentimentality and tough-as-nails difficulty. -- Gamespot review


      I have no idea what Gamespot is talking about. This is a cakewalk. Progress is practically guaranteed.

      Etrian Odyssey is hard. The original Starflight is hard as nails.

      Gamers today are soft.

      I love Etrian Odyssey, but it's easy.
    4. Re:Odin Sphere by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Odin Sphere does kill you if you fail to dodge 1-2 attacks from bosses or minibosses (unless you do excessive levelling). Then again you can just restart the boss fight immediately and continue until you beat him.

      Then again the same goes for Bunny Must Die and that game feels harder than OS. Maybe it's easier if you can understand the hints the game gives you, though...

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    5. Re:Odin Sphere by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Also, if you run low on health potions right before the boss fight it can make the fight rather difficult.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    6. Re:Odin Sphere by LionKimbro · · Score: 1

      Not only can you restart the boss fights, but you can say, "You know what, I really want to go back to the beginning of this whole level, and pay a little more attention to building up."

      And then further, you can just, "You know, I don't want to even be in this level at all. Take me outta here. I'm going to go to the forest, and turn onions into a bunch of napalm."

  20. Topic Summary by Shabadage · · Score: 3, Informative

    It scared me into thinking the article was written by some idiot who though that the best 2d games were all on the PS2. Not the best 2D Games on the PS2. Anyone who thinks 2D games are dead should really look into the indie PC scene though. Aquaria (IGF 2006 Winner) is a beautiful game; and there are many others in development. Heartforth Alicia features some of the best 2d graphics I've seen in a while. http://www.tigsource.com/ You can find a ton of awesome 2d games on there.

    1. Re:Topic Summary by lgw · · Score: 1

      You don't even have to look for the indie scene: the most popular games for many years have been 2D flash-sytle games, mostly from PopCap. I think Bejeweled has been played by more people than any game than Tetris.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  21. Re:nethack by lahvak · · Score: 1

    or used boots of levitation to get over water or out of a pit. Rock piercers and bolders also fall from the top.

    What about 4D games? "You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all around." :)

    --
    AccountKiller
  22. Castle Crashers by joejor · · Score: 1
    I got hooked on Castle Crashers at PAX this year. I had so much fun with its cute graphics and awesome gameplay. Too bad it's only on Xbox360.


    So, um, how long until there's an X360 emulator for linux?

  23. Narf Butter by Zephiris · · Score: 2, Informative

    The title of the Slashdot article itself is slightly misleading. Since when are 2D games even the exclusive dominion of the PS2? And how do they define 'modern'? Last 2 years? I can name off just oodles of (especially arcade) 2D games over the last 10 years, though, I suppose there are few for the PC or bad modern consoles these days, and few games (though particularly 2D) for any platform that actually try to be original. Many of those listed are just yet more basic rehashes. Even since Marvel vs. Capcom 2, the 2D landscape hasn't been all that barren. I know it's slightly offtopic, but I saw '2D gaming not quite dead?', and thought of one (PC) game that really stands out, and I still think it'd be of interest to Slashdot readers on the topic. In particular since most would theorhetically be viewing Slashdot via a capable PC, and not via PS2. ;b

    Hammerfall. I'm not even sure how to describe it, aside from "there probably need to be more Russian gamemakers". It's a non-casual physics based game that is an interesting combination of action and adventure. It reminds me of the days when games were actually something to get excited about and actually buy. If I were to buy a game, say, 15 years ago, it was an investment. You were expecting many dozens of ours of entertainment out of the purchase price. There are plenty of games now where there's no reason to keep playing after the first time, and even that's a paltry 10-or-less hours while still being full price. Then again, that (and later) was also back when there were just oodles of sharewhere and freeware games that were decently entertaining and quite a few were a bargain at $5 or $10. But I digress. Hammerfall is just very...unique, innovative, and even if you don't care about the story, the gameplay is just sublime.
    There's just something satisfying about taking your beat up Flying Contraption and *smacking* an attached hammer into someone at full speed, causing them to crash into the ground, break apart part of the level (yes, really), and catch itself (and other things) on fire. And the current 'demo' is a pretty complete game in and of itself, despite being pre-release.

    It's a pipe dream, but a girl can hope that someday notions like "innovation" or "original" or "risky", actually return to the gaming proper, rather than something to be feared worse than death by companies looking to make an extra billion profit this year instead of spending a few lousy dollars taking a chance on the lost artform of games.

    --

    "A Goddess rarely smiles for she is forced by others to be an island unto herself." - Zephiris
    1. Re:Narf Butter by Brigade · · Score: 1

      but a ... girl can hope ...

      Hear that programmers? A GIRL GAMER! Get to being innovative, original and risky! On the double! We need to cultivate this trend so we can camp out in the chair/couch along with them instead of being yelled at!
    2. Re:Narf Butter by LKM · · Score: 1

      Since when are 2D games even the exclusive dominion of the PS2?

      Actually, the PS2 is one of the worst consoles for 2D gaming since Sony actively discouraged 2D games, and did not publish many 2D games outside of Japan.

    3. Re:Narf Butter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since when are 2D games even the exclusive dominion of the PS2?
      The article did say that articles for other systems would be coming. (Though I don't remember them mentioning PCs, so that point of your argument still stands... and even just for PS2, I agree it wasn't the best it could have been.)
  24. doomrl is cool TEXT mode game by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    doomrl is a cool TEXT mode game http://doom.chaosforge.org/

    1. Re:doomrl is cool TEXT mode game by misterooga · · Score: 1

      Actually, I wonder if text based games are dead or not. I know people still play nethack and what not but those who play, probably are not the first time players but rather players visiting nostaligia, etc.

    2. Re:doomrl is cool TEXT mode game by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      The first roguelike that I played to a significant degree was Angband. In particular, I liked the simplicity and interface as weel as it's speed - it was much faster than Moria (although to be fair, Amiga Moria was loaded from floppies instead of an HD) and seemed to be much cleaner and distinct. While a few features such as coloured messages disappeared, the dropped features had no impact on how long I played the game. I also made personal patches in order to improve playability (e.g. pseudo-squelch store items too expensive to purchase). Overall, Angband's playtime outlasted Moria's playtime.

      When compared to story-based RPGs such as Final Fantasy, roguelikes tend to forget about the plot and go directly into the action. While this is a common trait of older RPGs on old systems, it works quite well for those who want to kill monsters at random.

      While I did play Nethack and other roguelikes, it was Angband that got me hooked for a while.

  25. Nope, 2D is alive and well by cliffski · · Score: 1

    There are tons on the PC, I know this because I make lots of them. like these (all original)

    www.rocklegendgame.com
    www.democracygame.com
    www.kudosgame.com
    www.starshiptycoon.com

    The article is obsessed with the playstation. 2D games are aplenty on the PC. And people are still happily and deliberately making more of them. 3D is not automatically more fun.

    --
    DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    1. Re:Nope, 2D is alive and well by grumbel · · Score: 1

      ### like these (all original)

      Yes, they also happens to be all written by the same guy. I am not claiming that there are no longer are any 2D games, but it are definitively are not tons, but just a tiny few.

  26. Animal crossing? by porcupine8 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    What about the Animal Crossing series? Or does that count as "3D with restricted movement?" I'm not sure what you mean by that label - personally, I like (and consider 2D) anything that doesn't make me swing the camera around, because that confuses me and sometimes makes me dizzy. If it has a fixed camera angle, even if the graphics are 3D-ish and you have 360 degrees of freedom in your movement, it's 2D for most intents and purposes.

    --
    Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
  27. play-fucking-station?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    who gives a flying fuck!

    (if it ain't a pc it is nothing)

  28. Re:nethack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There ARE 4D games, e.g. http://www.adanaxis.com/ is a space shooter in 4D.

  29. Hey people by Romwell · · Score: 1

    Ever heard of Soldat ? That game is played hugely. Not to mention a bunch of games made in Flash (see Newgrounds). Heck, last game I've played was Portal - the 2D port of it, to be precise. 2D games are really huge in the casual gaming market too.

  30. Re:nethack by Jame_Retief · · Score: 1

    Bull. It is NOT '4D'. Wants you to believe it is . . . it aint. Wanna call it hyperspace? Go ahead. 4D? There are only 3D (time excluded in discussions of spatial relationships).

  31. Wii Shop Channel by tepples · · Score: 1

    I remember the first time I played Super Mario Bros. on my uncles Nintendo! [...] You just can't find the original version anywhere these days! I think a great idea for the original game makers would be to release the original version. The original Super Mario Bros. is in Wii Shop Channel for 500 bells. Was your comment intended as a complaint against the short retail supply of Wii consoles?
  32. Long live 2D! by Reapman · · Score: 1

    Ya might be because i'm "older" but the best, BEST, Super Mario game I've played in recent memory is New SMB for the DS. No screwing around with cameras or anything, just pure good old fashioned platform jumping. I have nothing wrong with 3D, and nowadays it can look absolutly amazing, but long live 2D! :D

  33. 2D using a 3D card by tepples · · Score: 1

    Interestingly enough, 3D video cards are good at rendering very busy 2D scenes. Imagine 100,000 sprites on the screen. Imagine a normal-mapped sprite that reacts to lighting the way a 3D model might.

  34. Symphony of the Night by LightPhoenix7 · · Score: 1

    Castlevania: Symphony of the Night was one of the best 2D platformers ever made. I don't understand why Konami put all the sequels on the handheld systems. My point being, with the graphical capabilities of the new-gen systems, it's a real shame that a true successor isn't going to get made, because it would look beautiful, and probably sound it too.

    1. Re:Symphony of the Night by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. Castlevania:SotN is one of the pinnacles of 2D gaming. The reason sequels weren't made on the home consoles had nothing to do with Konami, but with Sony. With the PlayStation, Sony really tried to push the move to 3D gaming - at the time this was the definition of next generation video games. Sony wanted all the game to be 3D. Konami had a difficult time getting Sony to even approve SotN because it was 2D despite its amazing quality. It's too bad people associate 3D with higher quality. As SotN and several of the games on this list show, 2D games can be just as captivating and awesome as their 3D brethren.

    2. Re:Symphony of the Night by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 1

      I disagree. As amazing of a same SotN was, it felt like a handheld game. I think the switch to the GBA/DS was a fantastic choice, and those sequels are, while not as good, very good games.

  35. Harmotion by KermodeBear · · Score: 1

    I am a big fan of Harmotion, which is a PvP 2D shooter. It is free-as-in-beer to download and play. The game is in Beta with upgrades being released on a very regular basis.

    Two things of note: On Vista, you must run the game with administrator access; otherwise the auto-update will not work (all you will get is an exit to desktop with no notice).

    Secondly, even if you have a really nice gaming rig, I would recommend low graphics mode. High graphics mode can really lag your machine down, especially late in the game. Low graphics mode still looks great so no big deal.

    The team is accepting donations; if you like the product I'm sure they'd enjoy a little token of appreciation. I put my money where my mouth is here, I've donated.

    --
    Love sees no species.
  36. Not dead by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

    2D gaming is not dead. Why? Because 2D is not uniformly better than 2D. Sometimes, choosing 2D over 3D means your game will be simpler. Because 3D can tremendously complicate things, look at the Sonic games, they started to suck when they moved to (true) 3D for these reasons.

    Sure, 3D is most of the time nicer, but not in certain kinds of games, that's why we'll always have 2D games.

    --
    You just got troll'd!
    1. Re:Not dead by LKM · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not only is 3D not uniformly better than 2D, but 2D is very often better than 3D.

      There is one genre where 3D is most often better than 2D: Car racers. There's one genre that doesn't work in 2D at all: FPS. Other than that, almost all games would be better off in 2D, in my opinion.

    2. Re:Not dead by Trogre · · Score: 1

      That's one reason you can have my Megadrive when you pry it from my cold, dead, RSI'd thumbs.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  37. Sometimes irrelavent by RobDollar · · Score: 1

    Although it's a good idea, the article is pretty irrelevant. As has been mentioned already, a fair few of the games aren't 2d at all, they are 3d with restricted camera angles. What came to mind when I saw this article was "beneath a steel sky"; a great game which could have been developed now, albeit with 3d restricted camera angles. It's a pointless list in my view, maybe a list of genuine 2d games which are still playable now would be more appropriate. For example Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter (& 2), when they were released, looked great and were huge amounts of fun, but are now played mainly for only nostalgia purposes. Other games like Mariokart and (mentioned above) Lemmings, are still regarded as great games, even though they aren't relevant to todays gaming "needs". An in a word, weird, article, and a contradiction to itself.

  38. 2D and 3D are such different animals by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

    I read that there was an executive order handed down for the PS1 saying that no company would be allowed to make a conventional 2D game, no platformers or the like, because they wanted to stress the 3D nature of the console, that's what was supposed to be so revolutionary. I can understand the reasoning behind that even if I disagree with it.

    2D and 3D are such different animals, they really cannot be compared. Some ideas just work in 2D, others demand 3D. The best truism is that it's almost always a bad idea to try to adapt a game from one medium to another medium. Trying to make Sonic 3D is about as different of a game fundamentally as FPS Halo vs. that RTS version they have coming out. It might be the same franchise but it's in no way the same game.

    I'm really enjoying the elaborate 2D games made possible with today's computing horsepower. The home ports of arcade games always sucked in the past. I remember how disappointed I was when I saw Shinobi on the Sega vs. how it looked in the arcade. Home systems are so advanced now, you can just directly port what was in the arcade in the past and it'll look fantastic.

    What's also nice with the modern consoles is that there's real support for casual gaming. Sometimes you don't feel like sitting down and playing the latest high intensity shooter, sometimes you want to play one of those small goofy and fun games. With the downloadable content available now, games that never would have gotten shelf-space in the stores are now available to try. Sometimes those old-school play mechanics can't be beat, all you can do is make the graphics a little snazzier.

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:2D and 3D are such different animals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct about the arcade to home transition. The days of arcade machines populated with masses of custom-designed hardware are all but over. With few exceptions, almost all arcade hardware made today is built around commodity computing hardware with a small custom I/O board to handle the user interface elements.

      If you want to see the pinnacle of custom-built arcade hardware, look into the construction of the Hard Drivin' series from Atari. If you want to see the essence of clever and innovative design with limited computing resources, study the inner workings of Pole Position.

      Hard Drivin' is a masterpiece of engineering, successfully implementing realtime shaded 3-D and an excellent physics engine when the average home computer was barely capable of VGA graphics. Pole Position is a startling lesson in graphical and programmatic sleight-of-hand. Studying these designs is humbling. (and don't get me started on Battle Zone)

  39. 16 year Old Cousin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My 16 year old cousin plays a lot of Counter-Strike and FPS's in general. I also see him play a lot of 2D games when he's not in an FPS. He's not too interested in other "modern" games beside shooters but he'll play a lot of 2D platformers and fighting games.

  40. minigames by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    flow and geometry wars, great fun.

  41. Re:nethack by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

    Wow, that's a retarded website... Doen't load at all in Opera.

    Try Frequon Invaders, that's probably 4D since it displays a 2d plane consisting of complex numbers.

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  42. coincidentally by Tol+Dantom · · Score: 1

    Street Fighter IV was just announced...

  43. 2D Gaming Dead, Netcraft confirms. by adamofgreyskull · · Score: 1

    Two that have given me a lot of pleasure, though are not PS2 games...
    Ikaruga on the GameCube
    Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project on PC

    And of course, the real reason it's a PS2 only list..on a cross-platform list, Mario stomps all other 2D games, up and down and left and right :)

  44. Who Says 2D Gaming is Dead by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

    Flash games? Most are 2D as most webgames.
    Board games?2D.
    Emulated Nes/mega/snes games? Mostly 2d.
    I don't see any decline in these categories.

  45. 2D is not dead..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DEFCON.

    'nuff said, move on.

  46. I do. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since I won't be playing or developing any 2d game of significance (unless you count a few games of Minesweeper every now and then), I guess they might as well be dead for all intents and purposes.

  47. missing those by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Beatmania IIDX (PS2 and Arcade)
    Worms (+ Worms World Party) (different Versions on almost every Platform)

  48. There are some good new 2d Games by uncledrax · · Score: 1

    The most recent 2d game that I actually played for a while, that IS a real release and that ISN'T a flash based game would be Introversion's "Defcon".

    It's only a year old guys.. surely you haven't forgotten about it!

    The entire premise of the game is you looking at 'the big board' and nuking the other guys. It's totally a 2d interface.. they don't even mock 3d with things like 'shadows' on the units or anything.

    --
    ----- The internet has given everyone the ability to have their voice heard equally as loud.. even if they shouldn't be
  49. Peggle by Stele · · Score: 1

    I (accidentally) got my wife hooked on Peggle. It is OBSCENELY addictive, and a lot of fun. The presentation is very very good. Do yourself a favor and STAY AWAY. Your productivity will go down.

    1. Re:Peggle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Productivity can't get much worse. Link?

  50. If you're looking for 2d games by dar · · Score: 1

    I suspect you'd find a wider variety of 2d games on the Nintendo DS. There's a lot of good 2d games for it.

    --
    My other Slashdot ID is much lower.
  51. Portal: Flash Version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost as fun as the original and it runs in your web browser. 2D games definitely still have something to offer.

    Portal: the Flash version

  52. Nethack, still great by us7892 · · Score: 1

    2D with ascII characters. I still enjoy this game.

    http://www.nethack.org/common/index.html

    http://www.nethack.org/

  53. Thanks for the warning by geekoid · · Score: 1

    I don't want anything to reduce my "World of Warcraft" productivity. ;)

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  54. What are the best sites for indie games? by Optic7 · · Score: 1

    What are the best sites out there for searching and reading about indie games, both old and new? I'm thinking something like IGN (or any of its competitors that have tons of reviews, previews, etc, and some sort of database listing of games), but for indie games?

  55. 3D games are 2D by FigTree · · Score: 1

    As long as I'm playing games on a computer screen and not interacting with holograms or something similar it's 2D.