Why Can't I Buy A CableCARD Ready Set-Top Box?

Al E Usse writes "Ars Technica does a write up of the problems that were not solved by the July 1, 2007 integration ban on integrated security in your cable box. The goal was to get everyone on the same page by requiring standardized technology. Just the same, the cable companies aren't really playing ball. 'The companies who make the boxes don't seem interested in selling to consumers [and] cable companies still push their own branded devices.' The article covers some deep background on the whole CableCARD mess, and concludes with the current state of the market: 'Based on June 2007 figures from the cable industry, 271,000 CableCARDs have been deployed. That's an astonishingly low number. 58 percent of all US households with a TV subscribe to cable, according to the NCTA, which means that 65 million households have at least basic cable.'"

Comments

hackable?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are these cards hackable? If so, no wonder the cable companies don't want to send them out... Much easier to have a bunch of different proprietary solutions that each are hacked differently, rather than one that just needs to be hacked once.

Re:hackable?

[jandrese]

You lease the cards from your cable company, so hacking the card itself is probably out. It's just a reencrypter anyway. The boxes themselves could very well be hackable though, and without the cable company giving you the scare tactic of "if this screw ON OUR EQUIPMENT is touched when you return the box we will fine your ass off." Theoretically the umpteen encryptions that happen through a cablecard box should render it unhackable, but my guess is all of the complexity from all of the different encryption steps the cable companies insisted on will leave holes open that hackers can exploit.

I think the more fundimental concern the companies have is the lack of control they would have over the whole system if they don't own it. People could set up services for free that would work better than the ones the cable company would try to sell (because they always halfass features like that).

Re:hackable?

[PrescriptionWarning]

of course its not hackable, just like the Xbox, PS2, Xbox360, iPod, iPhone, TiVo, OSX, Vista, XP, and DRM.

This message has been brought to you by people with more confidence than groundings in reality.

Re:hackable?

[oni]

Each card has a public and private key. The cable company's signal is also encrypted, but there's a public band somewhere where the cable company can communicate will any cablecard that happens to be listening. So you plug the cable card into the TV (or tivo or whatever) and then go to the setup menu and read off a string of numbers. That string represents the card's public key.

The cable company takes its encryption key and encrypts it with the card's public key, then transmits that over the public band. Every cable card device sees this, but only the target card (your card) is able to read it, and use the card's private key to decrypt it.

So now the card has been given the cable company's encryption key, and can decrypt the signal and let you watch all the sweet sweet porn.^H^H^H^H^H discovery HD. The cable company periodically changes its key, and it keeps a list of all the cable cards that are authorized and sends the new key to all those cards.

IF you had all of this working in software, then you could copy the cable company's key into as many other devices as you want. That way, you could pay for one TV, but have other TVs authorized. But, you would have to keep copying the key to all the other devices. You absolutely could not get perpetual free cable. The best you can do is pay for one but actually have many. Hardly even seems worth it.

Re:hackable?

[mrsteveman1]

If the cable company effectively locks down the card itself, and keeps a list of all the keypairs authorized for use, it would be quite literally impossible to forge a new master key transaction to get the main signal key, the only way around that would be to make a friendly device that would be able to utilize the card itself as intended, but hand over the master key afterward.

Re:hackable?

[GWBasic]

IF you had all of this working in software, then you could copy the cable company's key into as many other devices as you want. That way, you could pay for one TV, but have other TVs authorized. But, you would have to keep copying the key to all the other devices. You absolutely could not get perpetual free cable. The best you can do is pay for one but actually have many. Hardly even seems worth it.

If it's software based, the DEVICE could have its own key in its ROM. Thus, you would have to call the cable company for each and every device you use.

Part of the 42%

[jforest1]

Anybody else think cable TV is for suckers? --josh

Re:Part of the 42%

[mi]

Anybody else think cable TV is for suckers? --josh

TV is for suckers, period. I would not have said it, if you had not asked, though...

Re:Part of the 42%

[Anonymous Coward]

So I take it you're not going to help us Save the Cheerleader then?

Re:Part of the 42%

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody else think cable TV is for suckers? --josh

Yes. I prefer to steal satellite signals.

Re:Part of the 42%

[Pope]

Ah, so you have satellite!

Re:Part of the 42%

[FatAlb3rt]

[raising hand] 65" of HD goodness, but over-the-air is good by me.

Re:Part of the 42%

[MightyYar]

I won't say that it's for suckers, but it's certainly for people who don't have better things to spend $800-1200 per year on! I, sadly, have not yet reached that point in my life and would still rather see 120 movies in the theater or have 12 really nice dinners out with my wife.

Or, you know, diapers for the kid...

Re:Part of the 42%

[Torvaun]

This is why NBC rewind is so nice. I don't need TV for Heroes, just broadband.

Re:Part of the 42%

[gurps_npc]

If you pay for the full end crap, yeah. You can still get cable for 45/month, which works out to about 540/year. No need to get that high end HBO/Showtime/etc. crap. You want to spend more per mont to get movies/'premium' crap, just get netflix or a similar service.

Re:Part of the 42%

[zippthorne]

You could just buy the shows on DVD after the season's over. You'd miss out on the water-cooler talk, but who does that anymore, anyway? Would you really want to admit to watching, say, "Eureka?"

Re:Part of the 42%

[Neo_piper]

7 years and counting since I cut the cable on my TV... I've got to have my broadband though
I just need to find a reasonably priced digital converter box so I can watch Dr.Who on Public Television after July 2007.

Re:Part of the 42%

[vtcodger]

***If you pay for the full end crap, yeah. You can still get cable for 45/month, which works out to about 540/year.***

Depends on where you live. I live in Northwestern Vermont and get hit for $63 a month for 60 or so commercial ridden channels. That's with no premium services. But, I'm lucky sort of. Folks in the next towns out from Burlington don't get any cable at all despite a lot of promises made back when the world was young and shiny and new. (I think fairly basic cable costs even more in many parts of the US).

The next lower service level is a lot cheaper, but it's basically just the eight local stations that I can mostly pull in from an antenna and -- I think -- three Montreal stations that I'd have to work hard to pull in off the air (there's a ridgeline in the way). I'd cancel, but right now, I pull in the full 60 channels, run the input through a broadband amplifier so as not to place a load on the Comcast network, and any of the six TVs in the house can tune to any channel without having to dink with set top boxes.

Comcast's vision of the future seems to be that I will install set top boxes for all the TVs and pay them to rent the boxes and for all sorts of premium services. My vision is that when Comcast eventually manages to make life without set top boxes intolerable, the Satellite antenna will go up on the roof looking through the notch between the two maple trees, and Comcast will be short one (more) customer.

Re:Part of the 42%

[MightyYar]

You don't even have to miss out on the water cooler talk. You can buy $2 tv shows on iTunes or $0 from other sources. Not to mention that most of the water cooler shows are still on network TV. Only the Sopranos and South Park spring to mind as "must-see" cable shows. Maybe the Daily Show in some circles...

Bullhockey

[palladiate]

I'm the inventory coordinator for a cable company. All of our new DVRs and Digital boxes run off of cable cards. If I pop open the card cover, inside is the exact same cable card we give customers. It's even handy when we want to test a new box, we just use an already addressed card instead of addressing a whole new box. It isn't cableCard technology that's the problem. It works with our system just fine. The problem happens to be crappy STBs that don't conform to CC specifications. Motorola, Cisco, and MS all make boxes that work just fine on our system with our on-demand and and program guide. Now, whether they have better access to documentation from Cable Labs, I'll never know. But it's BS that it's somehow the technology's fault.

Re:Bullhockey

[swestcott]

What about the new switched digatal cable thas suposed to be coming down the road will this still work on the Cable cards in place now or will a new upgrade be needed I have read this is a limatation of the new TiVo (SP?)

Re:Bullhockey

[malfunct]

I don't know if the tech in my house had a clue or not (from Comcast in Seattle area) when he was installing my cablecards in my TivoHD (because 1 card was defective and the other just wouldn't activate the day I tried to self install) but he said that Comcast was implementing seprable security using a technology that WAS NOT CableCard. How is that any better than integrated security? I think the seprable security requirement, if it can be satisfied with a non standard system or even one that consumers aren't allowed to buy on thier own, is a total joke.

That said the other issue I have is that CableCards are only allowed in approved "closed" devices. There needs to be a way that I'm allowed to install a CableCard tuner in whatever device that needs it, my personal computer most of all, without having to do it exactly the way that the industry wants me to. I'm not a pirate, I just want to be able to watch at some future time on the PC of my choice (I know many people only have 1 but I have 4 or 5 in the house at any one time all capable of displaying the content if allowed) or on a mobile device. Heck I'm even fine if they somehow figured out how to force me to watch the commercials as long as I could watch them when and where I wanted to. It doesn't seem like the lack of cablecard tuners in unapproved pc's is slowing the piracy of TV much so why spend so much effort to do it?

Re:Bullhockey

[oyenstikker]

Did you RTFA?

The article did not say it was the technology's fault. The market for simple STBs is not large enough to make selling them to consumers worth it for the manufacturers.

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

He had no clue. First, many techs, especially contractors, are clueless. Second, everything Comcast does is braindead.

You can have CCs in any device, no approval necessary. However, there is no guarantee your STB will work with one unless it's been certified. Tivos do work, but only uses them one way. There are only Cisco and Motorola devices that are two-way, and allow on demand or channel guides. One of those bad boys will set you back about a grand, or more for the HDs.

The article mentions that the biggest reason people aren't using CCs is because there are no good STBs. That's totally not true. There are plenty made by Cisco (Scientific Atlanta) and Motorola. They just cost between $800 and $1300 and come with your cable service. There's just no point in buying one, although we will sell them if you want them. As for consumer-grade options, I can't answer that, it just seems that no PC component company wants to make a CC interface, and the only consumer STB is Tivo.

I just wanted to point out there are tons of cable cards out there, and they are part of the digital boxes provided by the cable company.

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

No, I did. I saw it on Ars earlier. I'm responding to the the summary that blamed us for not playing ball. It blames the cable companies for not playing ball. That's BS. We'll sell you any box we provide. Do you really want to spend $1200 on an SA HD-DVR? Nobody else does, that's why we aren't selling them.

The problem is that there are no GOOD consumer devices. There just aren't. We can't help that. We aren't in the STB business.

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

It's supposed to work with all of our old equipment, so I'm guessing it's either just a Tivo thing, or it won't be a problem. I don't know anything specific about Tivos though. I've never used one.

Re:Bullhockey

[EdelFactor19]

"we'll sell you any box we provide"

that is entirely the problem, and frankly if you wouldnt sell me any box you provide your business is retarted.

the point is that we as consumers shuold have a choice and viable alternatives to paying the outlandish fees that "you" charge while still getting the service we provide.

the whole pay you 6+ bucks a month for the box thing is getting old. the box should either be free or we should be able to buy it from and others. There are no good devices because everytime one was created YOU found a way to make it not work.

first there was cable ready tvs... wait i want my money so lets scramble everything so that they have to have a box
then there was the whole lets only scramble some channels thing which was slightly better..
then digital came out, and the whole one-way two-way problem was created.
its a load of bull crap.

and there is conveniant lockout to prevent other boxes from recording multiple things simultaneously without seperate boxes.

frankly the cable companies are right up there with M$ in my book.. except they are allowed to post fraudulent adds all the time... "no hidden charges just XX a month" oh wait but if you want to to actually watch it youll need a cable box a remote and to pay some other silly fees even though we said no hidden fees.

Re:Bullhockey

[Creepy Crawler]

Are there ever any "good consumer" devices?

Most stuff is 'engineered' to die right after warranty, unless they offer extensive warranty support. Then its good for as long as you can 'extend the warranty'.

Re:Bullhockey

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Its a difficult economic question of how to jumpstart a new market. The first devices are always more expensive, and are adopted by people who just want the functionality. The problem in this case is that those who would be first adopters, have already adopted the rental system. There aren't any innovative devices that provide any benefit over the rental units, hence no early adopters, no price drops. Now people will pay stupid money for negligible benefit, but only if there is a large advertising program to make them feel special for being so stupid with there money. The article is sort of bemoaning the lack of this advertising push. No one wants to enter the market for these devices as the demand hasn't been proven, and no existing manufactures wants to handle customer problems, and they have an established business selling them at high margins to the cable companies.

But all of those facts, shouldn't get in the way of yelling at the monopolistic cable companies. They deserve more scorn for their business practices. In the next decade, their business will be reduced to High speed internet. All content will emanate from there, from a variety of providers.

Re:Bullhockey

[Stonent1]

Around in the Dallas area, we've got both Time Warner and Charter servicing different areas. The TW boxes that I have (formerly Comcast) are made by GI and Motorola (same box, different logo) and I don't recall them havging cable card slots. My girlfriend has Charter service and all her boxes (DVR's by Scientific Atlanta) have cable card slots but they are empty.

Re:Bullhockey

[jollyreaper]

That said the other issue I have is that CableCards are only allowed in approved "closed" devices. There needs to be a way that I'm allowed to install a CableCard tuner in whatever device that needs it, my personal computer most of all, without having to do it exactly the way that the industry wants me to. I'm not a pirate, I just want to be able to watch at some future time on the PC of my choice (I know many people only have 1 but I have 4 or 5 in the house at any one time all capable of displaying the content if allowed) or on a mobile device. Heck I'm even fine if they somehow figured out how to force me to watch the commercials as long as I could watch them when and where I wanted to. It doesn't seem like the lack of cablecard tuners in unapproved pc's is slowing the piracy of TV much so why spend so much effort to do it?
-- Beats the shit out of me. Why do cinemas go apeshit about stopping people from bringing in camcorders when the movie is available on all the torrent sites a week before the premiere? It's not like we're talking the days of 80's mix tapes where each subsequent copy incurred a generation loss. This is digital and it only takes one good copy to get spread across the entire planet.

I have a VCR and could time-shift the shows I want to watch just fine. It doesn't look as good on my HD set so I just download and use my laptop to play the shows instead. Cheaper than a Tivo, does the same thing and without cable company restrictive bullshit. They don't realize we still have options.

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

that is entirely the problem, and frankly if you wouldnt sell me any box you provide your business is retarted.

the point is that we as consumers shuold have a choice and viable alternatives to paying the outlandish fees that "you" charge while still getting the service we provide.
We don't charge equipment fees. In fact, local law prohibits us from doing this, but none of our divisions do. We charge for DVR service, but so does Tivo. Some of that is licensing, some of it is infrastructure, some of it is profit.

There are no good devices because everytime one was created YOU found a way to make it not work.
No. We have done no such thing. I'm afraid I'm going to need some kind of citation for that accusation. Have we broken any Tivos? No.

then there was the whole lets only scramble some channels thing which was slightly better..
That's because HBO doesn't let you get their channel without paying.

then digital came out, and the whole one-way two-way problem was created.
Are you trying to imply that we could have put 600 channels and on-demand channels down the line without using a compressed, digital signal? Your Cable Card handles the digital signal just fine. There are no technical limitations there, and if you put one in a cablecard slot on your TV, it will work. It's because we need an addressable box on your end to authorize the service you purchased. It's like how you need a power meter for your house. That's necessary equipment too.

Re:Bullhockey

[whoever57]

We'll sell you any box we provide. Do you really want to spend $1200 on an SA HD-DVR? Nobody else does, that's why we aren't selling them.

Are they worth $1200? Or to ask another way, is it possible that your cable company is inflating the price of the boxes when offered for sale to consumers?

Re:Bullhockey

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason we blame you (cable companies as a whole) for playing not ball, is because of your inability to come to terms with modern customer demands and your CableLabs crew (and yes, YOURS...CableLabs was created and is funded by the big cable companies) and their issues. Part of it may be because their rules are regulated by what they feel are the content providers' demands, but they are complicit in this as well.

Okay, you could sell us a $1200 SA DVR. But why are there not more companies that just make a device that is just a tuner that takes a card? Why not go to Best Buy and pick up a 3rd party box for $80 like we can a DOCSIS cable modem? Why won't you allow bidirectional devices to be manufactured and sold? Because CL and the CO's artificially hamper the possibility.

As an example, I will give a list of the issues that have arisen since TiVo has released their S3/HD line of digital cable tuners, which are, as far as I know, the only mass-consumer CableCARD tuners out there (that aren't built into a TV):

1. CableCARDS have a high rate of failure. While there can be issues with the TiVo units, yes, this has gone back since HDTV's have begun adding CC slots. The CO's response? "It's your device." No, it isn't my device. If it was my device, then why, after going through a stack of 5-6 cards, does one finally work (in any of my CC-capable devices, even?) Either the CableCARD spec is poorly designed, or they are poorly manufactured and you don't care, or you are storing them under a leaky bucket in the back of the warehouse hoping that nobody will ask for one.

2. The TiVo obeys your copying and recording restrictions, as demanded by CL and the CO's, offering the copy-once, copy-many, copy-none flags and their ilk. Many of your cable boxes do not. That means that my TiVo, as purchased, does not provide me as much service as your box does, because it follows the rules that you require, even though you do not follow them yourself.

3. VOD/PPV/SDV all require bidirectional communications between the device and the head end to handle the channel assignments. Your cable boxes can all do this, because CableCARD is capable of bidirectional communications, and so is your device. My HDTV and TiVo cannot handle these things, because they are not bidirectional, because CableLabs refuses to certify a third-party device with bidirectional communication capability.

4. So why do they have to be certified? See the initial hostility to the S3's release. There are forums filled with people who were told that the cable company would never provide CableCARDS for the TiVo at first until people started pointing out FCC regulation (with TiVo's help on 3-way calling sometimes!) that required them to allow access to certified devices, which the S3 certainly was!

5. Initially, many cable companies (and some still do) would charge over-the-top fees for the S3, because it required two CableCARDS. Their argument? "It has two tuners, it is two devices, so you have to pay an additional Digital Outlet Fee." The problem? Those same cable companies provided their own dual-tuner DVR that did not require an additional Outlet Fee.

Also, those $1200 DVR's that you could sell us? I have never seen one that wasn't slow, buggy, temperamental, and covered with ads that took up over half of my channel guide every time I tried to pick something to watch. The TiVo is a good consumer device, one that has already been hampered by the cable providers' desire to not play fair, as demanded by FCC regulation. Sure, it has its bugs, but has been a far better device than any cable-provided DVR or tuner that I've seen. And if you really want to wonder why people aren't making devices that work like your STB units, even if they are cheaper, look at the OCAP requirements for "two-way cable devices".

(The TiVo is also a hell of a lot cheaper than $1200)

Re:Bullhockey

[Cramer]

Tivo's (and just about everything else on the market) are UNIDIRECTIONAL. They cannot talk to the headend to request anything. SDV, while not explicitly mentioned in the license, is not workable without an upstream channel to the headend.

Re:Bullhockey

[Cramer]

They obviously aren't the "exact" same cards... The cards in your boxes work all the time, every time. The cards you rent to customers are flaky, unstable junk. How many cards does a tech take to a single install? 3? 4? Because he knows he's going to have to try a half dozen to get one to work. And how often do those rented cards simply "malfunction" (lost channels, go into never ending firmware updated, etc.) vs. your own hardware?

Re:Bullhockey

[Ertman]

the whole pay you 6+ bucks a month for the box thing is getting old.

A nice HD dual tuner PVR costs more than a decent PC. That's just the way it is. Motorola charges $500+ for the box, the cable company will sell it to you for $600, or rent it to you for $6/month. Those are your simplest choices.

Motorola, SA, and Pace are not going to just sell boxes one at a time to end customers, just like you can't call up GM headquarters and buy a truck. You have to deal with a distributor. Don't want to buy the box from Comcast? Buy it from TWC, or Cox, or one of the small online retailers. They will sell you a cable card ready STB that will work on your cable companies plant. Then call up your cable company and get a cable card.

CableCard was never designed to benefit the end customer. It was never designed to benefit the cable company. It was never designed to benefit the STB companies. It was designed to benefit the big consumer electronics companies. Sony absolutely hates that they put all of the effort into interface branding on their TVs, only to have you see the Motorola UI on the STB. CableCard is 100% about letting the big guys like Sony build devices that have their own branding and will work with digital cable.

Cable companies hate CableCard as much as you do. A CableCard costs more than a low-end STB. So now you have almost doubled the cost to get a customer hooked up to digital cable. Which is why a lot of them are dragging their feet on CableCard support and waiting on DCAS. Yup, give it a couple of years and your CableCard system will be obsolete.

Re:Bullhockey

[DCheesi]

If these boxes cost so much, how are you subsidizing the cost for all the boxes rented to customers? $10 or $15 bucks a month wouldn't allow you break even in a reasonable amount of time.

Re:Bullhockey

[Relic of the Future]

Yup, fancy that; only the manufacurers of your company's branded set-top boxes have proper documentation for the standard the FCC had to force your industry into using.

Why, it's as if the status-quo of charging ridiculous prices to locked-in customers has been maintained, despite the best efforts of regulators to circumnavigate the cable industry's phalanx-like defense of control it wields over its customers!

You're right, it's not the technology's fault. It's your ((boss's) ^ n) fault.

And what's this! Now they say, if we just wait a few more years, they'll have a new better standard, that this time it will certainly work; trust us!

Re:Bullhockey

[suitepotato]

Palladiate is entirely right. It's not the cable companies' or the equipment manufacturers' faults. It DOES have much to do with the content originators' over-abundant fears of piracy.

Their fears translate to increased pressure on the security department between disconnects, audits of same, audits of the system at large, as well as on the executive management to be very careful what equipment they deploy or allow deployment of.

Want to get independent STBs that take a cable card and give you choices? Go bang on the doors of the content originators. THEY are the biggest influence.

Re:Bullhockey

[Dachannien]

You can have CCs in any device, no approval necessary.

No, you can't. CableLabs has the spec locked down under patent protections to prevent third parties from developing, for example, PCI cards that will accept a CableCard and can be sold direct to the consumer (instead of only to OEMs for those lame Windows DRM'ed media center PCs). There actually are PC component manufacturers who would like to make such a device (Dvico and Hauppauge would likely be interested), but since it would be useless to those of us with custom-built PVRs in the only form in which CableLabs will provide certification (i.e., DRMed tighter than a script kiddie's ass in federal prison), there's no point in developing one.

And none of that has anything to do with protecting the cable companies' signals. It's all about protecting and extending the content industry's control over the consumer, same as it's been since the days of the player piano.

Re:Bullhockey

[Ant P.]

As for consumer-grade options, I can't answer that, it just seems that no PC component company wants to make a CC interface Problem solved. Next excuse?

Re:Bullhockey

[Anonymous Coward]

So when I picked up a converter box recently, the inserted cablecard had a tamper-indicating seal over it. The company explicitly said that the cablecard should not be removed from the converter box or else I would have to pay for the cost of the CONVERTER BOX. FUD from the cable company?

Re:Bullhockey

[bnenning]

Have we broken any Tivos? No.

Your counterparts in my area rendered my EyeTV DVR useless when I moved to a new place that couldn't get OTA reception, by encrypting local HD channels. I'll pay $10 for an unencrypted HD feed that I can use my existing hardware with, I won't pay $25 a month to rent a crippled DVR.

Re:Bullhockey

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds like the tech was trying to describe DCAS which effectively provisions the set-top box in much the same way they are able to provision a cable modem. it is a bit more complex because they have to include some DRM to satisfy the content providers, and it has to be bulletproof against theft-of-service.

also, it really doesn't matter if you are a pirate or not. you will have to deal with the complications just like everyone else. no amount of whinging is going to simplify the wonderful clusterfuck of competing interests. just consider what is involved here... you have tv and film production companies/distributors who need it one way, tv stations that want it another, cable companies trying to deliver, customers making all sorts of miserable bad mojo on blogs like digg and consumerist, set top box manufacturers and consumer electronics companies all vying against one another to maximize the amount of control they have over the situation.

on top of all that you are demanding that 'puter OEMs produce cards that magically work on a pc while satisfying all of the above interests. ATI can just barely, barely get it done and it is a mess of a fly-out box with all the attendant issues of cable cards and drm. the problem is, these companies aren't full of idiots. each and everyone person in this foray is aware of what a PC can do in terms of slicing right through all the careful compromises worked out over years.

so suck it up. you know as well as anyone that the moment this stuff is plugged in to a pc, the ads are gone and the stuff is posted all over the net in pristine digital form. seeing clips of the simpsons on youtube is one thing, but widespread availability of perfect digital copies of of every HD show or movie ever made means everyone has to go out of business. why would they do that to themselves? because you got a little whiny on slashdot? suck it up.

Re:Bullhockey

[Moofie]

Why do you think that's a cable card adaptor? Because, it really looks like it's not.

Re:Bullhockey

[Anonymous Coward]

You lost all credibility when you said that the SA and Motorola boxes were good. Those boxes are the biggest pile of crap I have ever used.

Re:Bullhockey

[mzs]

I got an antenna the first time comcast raised my bill above $50 and cancellled cable. My parents and uncle are paying $100 and $120 per month. I think they recoup costs quickly.

Re:Bullhockey

[mzs]

They are not allowed to do this. I was surprising how quickly comcast disabled the encryption of the channels that were available as OTA network in my area when I called. One day I alled, the next day they were back. It was the only decent experience I had with that company.

Re:Bullhockey

[demon]

They are the same cards; the problem isn't the cards, it's mostly tied up in cable MSO employees who just don't care. They won't or can't transcribe a sequence of numbers correctly and enter them into a computer - or in some cases (like my cableco), they try to deny, deny, deny, preventing you from even getting the cards (until you call in the FCC, anyway). This is the second time I've had CableCARDs (in my TiVo Series3 HD DMR, by the by), and haven't had a bad card yet - it's just a matter of being sufficiently insistent, and having competent people.

Re:Bullhockey

[ratboy666]

I think the point is that the CableCard *should* be a standard plug-in peripheral, using a standard interface. PCMCIA format seems ideal - it would be useable in laptops, standard PCs, and could be easily added to TVs and set-top boxes.

If the CableCard is not in such a standard format implies that there is an attempt to lock out potential users of the technology. A laptop would then have to have a CableCard to USB interface adapter. Specifically, the CableCard is then locked to the source of the cable.

But even that is not done properly. If the CableCard needs to be locked to the source (cable), the cable should be routed THROUGH the CableCard, along with a side channel. The side channel would be for crypto exchange; the CableCard should have CableIN CableOUT USBcrypto connectors.

Since the content is digital, the CableCard does not have to be locked in such a way. The PCMCIA solution is also workable. Logically, there are also three "connectors". The cable signal is routed through the CableCard (sent to it, and retrieved from it). The crypto side channel is also sent through the CableCard (and, of course, part of the crypto side channel is derived from the cable signal itself).

The "problem" with these implementations is that decrypted content can be stored in a home-brew PVR.

But a CableCard should be available in PCMCIA format...

Re:Bullhockey

[demon]

As others mentioned, these devices are UDCP (uni-directional cable) receivers; the license under which they're produced doesn't allow two-way communication support. However, SDV is supposedly going to be taken care of using an external USB-attached device known as a "tuning resolver". At least, that's the rumor; however, they're most likely going to be provided by the cable companies, which means you have to wait for them to get around to offering them. Maybe the FCC will mandate them - of course, who knows if they'll follow it...

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

Because, most of our boxes are cheaper, and we average around $600 per CPE placed. Few people have HD boxes. The boxes also last a few years, and come with good service agreements with SA and Motorola.

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

When we purchase equipment or bill our contractors for losing a piece, that's the price. That's what we pay, in bulk. They do come with very decent warranties.

Re:Bullhockey

[palladiate]

No, we don't verify your device or anything.

There may be restrictions on what kind of device you call sell, regarding patents and licensing, but we don't check your equipment beyond "it works to your satisfaction." I don't write the software or build the hardware. But I do know we don't check to see if your device is approved. There are far too many CC-ready TV models for us to verify.

Re:Bullhockey

[Gr8Apes]

The "problem" with these implementations is that decrypted content can be stored in a home-brew PVR. That's not a problem, that's a feature!

And besides, why is that an issue anyways? Broadcast content is free for personal use. The only things that might be considered non-free are subscription based things like HBO, but even those are recordable. The content industry needs to wake up that there is no way to lock down content, no matter what they try. Should they lock it down all the way to the pixels and speaker coils, it can still be recorded.

Re:Bullhockey

[Leiterfluid]

I think you missed the point.

Comcast doesn't need to do device verification because all devices that use Cable Cards must be certified by CableLabs. They hold the patents on how the cards work, and they license the technology to approved vendors.
The problem is, I can't go out and buy an off-the-shelf TV tuner card that has a cable card input to use with a home-built PC running either Windows Media Center or MythTV. I would have to buy an OEM PC from an approved manufacturer with a specific BIOS configuration.

Personally, I don't find that to be a very consumer-friendly option.

Also, where can I go out and buy one of these tuners from Cisco or Motorola? Can I pick one up at Target? or Wal-Mart?

Re:Bullhockey

[bnenning]

Interesting. So you now get those HD channels as clear QAM?

Re:Bullhockey

[wavedeform]

I agree that it isn't the technology's fault, I think that the cable industry deserves quite a lot of the blame. I have a TiVo HD, and had quite a few problems getting it set up properly. The problems were all cable company problems. One of the problems was with a bad cable card. I asked about the bad cable card, and the installer said it didn't work in several other installs, but that the cable company wouldn't swap it out of his inventory, and required him to keep trying to use it. Most of the problems were in the cable company database back end. There seems to be a high incidence of dyslexia in the back end database people.

I knew more about the process than the cable company installers, as well. The installers had not had any/enough CableCARD training, and consequently hated CableCARD installs. All in all, a recipe for disaster.

Re:Bullhockey

[EdelFactor19]

I liked some of your points and wanted to respond

a. You don't charge equipment fees?
thats odd considering I have to pay 6-10 dollars a month for equipment; renting a cable box, id have to check with my parents but unless it recently changed we had to pay for a remote.. you could buy it but the next day a new box could be deployed that didnt support the remote so that was sort of moot. I really have no need to borrow a hard drive from you I'd be happy to put my own into the cable box in whatever form you need be it ide, scsi, or sata. Hard drives are cheap and I wouldnt mind being able to have a bigger capacity anyhow, especially since the only documented way to get stuff off is through recording to a vcr or capture card. While I understand your point about the DVR fee, my mind would tell me that people might use tivo for a multitude of reasons, maybe they dont want digital cable, if you dont have an hd tv or a digital surround system connected to the box what is "digital service" really giving you? To me that makes sense in the same way buying an aftermarket part for me car does. Sure the dealer gave me a radio but i wanted a different one with more features. But if I pay to have a 6 disc changer dealer installed I dont have to pay them every other month when i swap out the carosel of discs do I?

b. Define broken. For the longest time all I wanted to be able to do was record one show while watching another, and this was with a VCR. What were my options? Buy second cable box (absurd), pay you to install an ab switch or something like that, now I can do this with your dvr on digital cable. what did I end up doing then? i sent the cable from the wall direct to the vcr so that it could do its tuning which would allow me to record the non scrambled channels (which didnt include comedy central, cartoon network, or sci-fi) while I watched tv. the vcr antenna out then went to the cable box allowing my tv to watch whatever it wanted to. if i really wanted to record something on the scrambled channels or watch a non scrambled while recording scrambled I swapped the wiring around. but it was a pain.
In college I was trying to get into the whole PVR thing, turning my computer into a vcr for me.. Problem is I only had and felt like paying for one cable box and now everything was scrambled. I got lucky one summer and was in an area where they only scrambled the absolute premium stuff like hbo cinemax etc; which was fine by me, and I just used a splitter so i could feed multiple tuners on the machine.
Now I'm back in the normal land and if I want to be able to get the same dvr capabilites as the cable box does I'd have to pay for multiple boxes.
It stand to reason that most of the people who would really care about the luxury of recording all this stuff are usually people who likely pay for some premium channel liked hbo or a sports package, and dont want to have to miss anything on that channel. The drawbacks about being able to record some channels simultaneously and not others is annoying and absurd.
My biggest complaint and barrier here is that a. every different cable provider (at least until recnetly incase its no longer allowed) did scrambling a little differently and had their own policies and methods on it. Some worked with cable ready tvs some didnt. To create an independant product you'd have to figure out and design it to work on every single one.. even if you just picked one to work on nothing was stopping the cable company from changing how they did it the next day. This was perennially a reason provided to stay with the cable companies remotes, cable modems and boxes: because we will upgrade it for free when we replace it and make the old one incompatible. Buy your own and you'd be SOL when it stopped working.

What would solve that problem? really simple in my eyes, design the cable box so that the descramble or decompression or whatever happens first, and then the output from there (which is also fed

Re:Bullhockey

[Ant P.]

Looks like it'd fit just fine to me.

Re:Bullhockey

[Moofie]

Fit != work.

FCC is useless, Congress is useless, see a patern?

[denis-The-menace]

The corps run the show in the US.
If the almighty Congress can't force the phone companies to fess up about wiretapping, why should the corps worry about the wimppy FCC?

What a surprise

[sdkramer]

Toothless regulation enforcement
An uneducated public
cable companies with a vested interest in maintaining their monopoly

I suppose most people with a cable internet connection rent their modem, and most households haven't converted to digital televisions yet. AmIright? or AmIright?

Re:What a surprise

[BlowHole666]

I think people are going to pick what cost less and what is convenient. I personally drive to the closest store to get stuff and the one with the lowest price. Unless it is a wal-mart then I go to Target. So I would not call the public uneducated. They are just trying to save a buck so maybe that is the educated thing to do when your cable company offers all the features you want (or know about). Also, the average Joe does not read slashdot.

Re:What a surprise

[sdkramer]

I didn't mean uneducated as in stupid, I meant uneducated as in they don't even know that they can buy their own set top box.

Re:What a surprise

[swb]

This is much more about toothless regulation and, most important, a cable industry that sees "open standards" as a Bataan Death March towards loss of control. They see the huge benefit from providing a closed solution that allows them have end-end control over every aspect of TV watching.

What happens when you have a combo STB that does both cablecard for "normal" TV but allows program downloads from the internet (ie, some future "tv channel" streaming feed standard)? It doesn't take consumers too long to realize that they can cancel the TV part without losing anything.

Re:What a surprise

[dal20402]

I'm far from an uneducated consumer. I still pay Comcast to rent both my modem and my HD DVR (which, incidentally, uses a CableCard to handle decryption, protestations of incompetent Comcast support staff notwithstanding).

With the modem, I've come out behind financially, if you assume that the whole time I've been with Comcast I would have been able to use the same modem. But I doubt that, for two reasons. First, cable modems, like other cheap electronics, are prone to breakage. I've had one go south on me in the past few years, which Comcast replaced free. Second, Comcast has upgraded cable internet service three times since I started subscribing; the first modems I got were not capable of handling today's data rates.

The case for renting the HD DVR is even simpler. To buy a comparable two-way capable HD DVR would cost me $900. I pay $10 a month. You do the math.

Re:What a surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

The word you are probably looking for is ignorance. Ignorance can be cured. You can't fix stupid.

Re:What a surprise

[jedidiah]

They are only hastening the inevitable there.

It's like the RIAA and mp3s. While the cable operators are trying
to lock us out we are evaluating and building alternative solutions.
While the mundanes might not appreciate the DVR concept now, they
might latch onto "free cable" in the future.

Sandbagging Tivo with this cable card crap sent a lot of bright
people straight to all of the products that will be cable's undoing.

They have decided to make their premium option the most inconvenient one out there.

Re:What a surprise

[Spuggy]

I certainly agree with you on the cost of the DVR you're using vs. paying for the box up front, but look at your bill more closely. At least in Pittsburgh, one of the cute things that Comcast does is splits out the charge for the DVR service--one $10 charge and one $6 charge. You're actually paying $16 / month.

It actually works out that the $300 Tivo with the 3 year subscription is pretty much a wash, even with paying for the equipment up front.

(Granted, the Tivo isn't 2-way, but it's actually not as far off as you think)

Long Live FTA!

[Wolvie MkM]

Wait.. need to patch box again...

Alright.. Long Live FTA! (until the next blitz by BEV)

Well, analog is good enuf...

[nweaver]

EG, I'm still using analog-only cable, even though my new Tivo HD supports CableCard. There is only one digital station I care about to date (SciFi), and not enough to be willing to pay the $10-20/month more that adding digital service will cost me (at least until I get an HDTV and want to get the HD channels)

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell would you spend all the extra money on a TiVo HD if you don't get HD channels, let alone plain old DIGITAL channels? Especially when you gripe about the extra cost of those channels in the first place.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[slaingod]

Just get an HDHomeRun which will decode unencrypted QAM signals on most cable and stream it to any system on the network.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[nweaver]

a: My 3.5 year old Series 2 is not that happy

b: I wanted the much larger capacity, and I'll throw a TB on it once the eSATA is formally supported.

c: Dual tuners == (Stuff I Want && Stuff the GF wants)

c: I WILL be getting an HDTV around January, when you can probably get a 40"+ 1080P for $1000.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[fangorious]

there are free over-the-air HD signals uncompressed for the major broadcast networks. Since it's uncompressed you can conceivably get better signal quality for those channels than the respective cable feeds.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[Iceykitsune]

HAHA!!!! sci fi is analogue for me:)

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[EvilSS]

Unencrypted is the key there. Most cable companies provide few, if any, unencrypted QAM channels. I have charter and the only unencrypted QAM channels I can get are the secondary channels from the local HD stations (excluding PBS) and PPV/On demand that people in my area have ordered. Yes, that's right, THAT they send out unencrypted. The extended digital channels and all the HD channels (including locals) are scrambled.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[tap]

unencrypted being the key word there. sci-fi will be encrypted. The only unencrypted signals are the sames ones you can get with an antenna for free, and even then those are encrypted too sometimes.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[slaingod]

On RCN in NYC I get all digital tier 1 channels unecrypted (ie Discovery, but not Discovery Wings) including Comedy/ScfFi etc. I get nbs,cbs,abs,fox,pbshd, tnt, tbs & National Geeographic channel as far as HD goes, all on QAM. Plus the digital music channels and I can snoop on all the PPV porn I want, though it is annoying when they fast forward through the good parts :P

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I WILL be getting an HDTV around January, when you can probably get a 40"+ 1080P for $1000."

... or $900 Canadian!

God, I've been waiting my entire life to make that joke.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[heinousjay]

The only thing scrambled on my system is the pay channels. I didn't realize this until I plugged the cable into my TV directly. Of course, I'm something of a Slashdot rarity - I have Comcast and I don't really have any complaints about them. They provide good service in my estimation. I may be easy to please, however. I don't get offended by people making money.

Re:Well, analog is good enuf...

[EvilSS]

I wish I was in the same boat...

That is exactly how it SHOULD work anyway: clear QAM for basic/extended channels and some form of protection for the pay networks. QAM tuners are showing up in most HDTV sets now, so I imagine the cost of including it must be next to nothing. Why the hell should I have to rent/buy a converter box when my TV can display the damn content by itself already! Guess I just find it really frustrating that the content providers/cable companies are actually CREATING a technical hurdle to my consumption of their own damn product. Heck, the damn STB requirement is the reason I DON'T subscribe to their digital tier now.

Why not TiVo?

[Krellion]

TiVo's set-top Series3 and TiVoHD both work with CableCARDs. Why not use one of them?

(Yeah, yeah, I realize that the TiVo service subscription will put off people, but it's worth it.)

Re:Why not TiVo?

[LordKazan]

Not everyone wants to pay tivo $16/month - mythtv users can buy a YEARS worth of listings for $20 - plus i already have 4 tuners (3 analog, 1 qam256/atsc) and 500GB of harddrive

Re:Why not TiVo?

[amigabill]

Yeah, yeah, I realize that the TiVo service subscription will put off people, but it's worth it.

Verizon's HD DVR box for FIOS costs me $20/month.

A cable card is $3/month. Tivo service is $17/month at its most expensive plan and less than $9/month at its cheapest monthly price in the 3year prepaid plan. That's wort-case total $20/month and best-case total $12/month.

Sorry, but I do not see a significant service price difference. I'd rather buy the Tivo and have the same or cheaper per month fees to keep it running than Verizon's fee for their box which I am horribly unhappy with.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[amigabill]

Too bad it doesn't work with my service. I myself was building a Myth box, and got two of the HD3000 tuner cards. Now that I'm done with analog cable, it's pretty useless without cablecard support. :(

Re:Why not TiVo?

[zeldor]

mythtv likes firewire tuners, comcast's boxes have firewire outputs.
quite a nice match in my household.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[HTH NE1]

Tivo service is $17/month at its most expensive plan and less than $9/month at its cheapest monthly price in the 3year prepaid plan. Actually, TiVo service can be as low as $6.95 a month with an existing unit with service in the same home, even if that existing service is an old Series1 with Lifetime (no monthly fee) service.

Even better, there's the occasional offer to transfer existing lifetime service to the latest hardware, and a free year of service on the legacy unit, which can then be unsubscribed.

(Of my eight TiVos, two are lifetime, 5 are $6.95/mo, and one is a never-subscribed Series1 20hr unit. Two of the monthlies are also Series1 that I could let lapse and still be able to do manual recordings.)

Re:Why not TiVo?

[glindsey]

mythtv likes firewire tuners, comcast's boxes have firewire outputs. Comcast disables FireWire output for a huge number of digital channels on a whim -- in Illinois, at least. I have friends who say that 75% of their programming at any given time disables the FireWire port on their STB.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have all the hardware you need, then why even chime in on this thread or story? How does it apply to you?

Re:Why not TiVo?

[zeldor]

it does vary by market yet. my dct-3416 comcast box shoves
EVERYTHING out the firewire port and expects the other end
to honor the 5C flag.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

That and you'd have to be a complete idiot to buy a TiVo.

Someone else has already run the math, but you can rent a DVR from your cable company for about the cost of TiVo service. When you add the $300-$800 TiVo box onto that, you're just falling deeper and deeper into the hole. Plus with the HD TiVo's using CableCard, you have to tack on an additional $50 to install them, assuming that the TiVo works with the cards (and there's a good chance that TiVo won't, TiVo's are notorious for randomly failing with perfectly functional CableCards).

Add on to the fact that TiVos use hard drives, which have an average life time of about three years, and you're looking into a $300 (minimum) recurring charge every three years. Where-as with cable service, if your DVR dies, you just call them up and they'll replace it free of charge.

But finally, you already get everything the TiVo service really offers from your cable company anyway. Why pay for the guide a second time? And a worse guide than the cable company offers too! I remember watching an episode of TV that was preempted by the President's speech. My cable box knew about that and bumped the time up 20 minutes to compensate. TiVo? Not a chance, it recorded 20 minutes of partisan bickering (Bush followed by Democrat whining) and the first 40 minutes of the show.

There is absolutely no reason to buy a TiVo. Just rent a DVR from the cable company, it's cheaper and works better. You'd have to be a complete idiot to buy a TiVo.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[amigabill]

mythtv likes firewire tuners, comcast's boxes have firewire outputs.

I no longer have Comcast, I now have Verizon. And Verizon disables A/V INPUTS on their boxes, even the front-panel one on my DVR, I'm not aware of any firewire present or working for outputs.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[martin_b1sh0p]

You're joking right? No wonder you posted as AC.

I'll give you that it cost more upfront (the initial $$$ for the box), although you can still buy Series 2 Tivo; and those are really cheap these days.

But as for the "cable companies DVR works better than Tivo"? That is laughable. Yes I do have a Tivo, but a simple search through any A/V forum and you will find pretty much nothing but praise for how well Tivo works. As well as comments from users who previously had CC DVRs and now have Tivo....usually goes soemthing like this: "OMG, I can't believe how much better Tivo is than my old CC DVR."

As for the pre-empted show...that's one of the huge features Tivo is known for handling so well. I only wish my HD DVR downstairs worked as well as my Tivo S2 that I have in the bedroom. Anytime a show switches day/time, Tivo picks it up beautifully. The HD DVR downstairs doesn't have a clue.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not joking, just able to compare with numbers and see which is cheaper.

"OMG, I can't believe how much better Tivo is than my old CC DVR." Bull. TiVo is slow as all hell, it loses button presses, it has this annoying issue where it pauses for several seconds before it suddenly replays all the buttons in a quick flash, and it's simply more expensive than cable company offerings.

You lose video on-demand services with TiVo, you lose the TV guide you already pay for with TiVo, you get basically nothing you can't get cheaper from the cable company.

There's no reason to get a TiVo. The cable company is cheaper. And if you really must get a TiVo, you can always rent one from Comcast for less than the price of TiVo.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[hostyle]

Indeed. Who needs alternative solutions or outlooks upon a problem when you can just whine, moan and lament for longer without them.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[Sandbags]

Why would I drop $300+ for a Tivo (or more for HD versions) PLUS a monthly subscription when I get an HD DVR from Time Warner for $9.59 per month before discounts?

Their box is guaranteed to work with their service, doesn't require internet access (or a phone line) in the living room to get guide information, is automatically waranteed for free as long as I'm already paying for the cabl;e service, is fixed in my home if I have an issue (or I can more quickly exchange it hassle free at the local office in person and son't have to wait for a repair at all or cross ship boxes or waste money on postage). Heck, it even comes with a universal remote that works with my 5 diferent HT devices... and they even give me free batteries!

The digital box I have in the other room is the same way, $495 per month. Even if the box was only $200, plus $1 per month to rent the CableCard to go in the box, I could get a cable box from the cable company for 4 years for the same price, and get a few hardware upgrades inbetween. The HD box (non-DVR) is the same price.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[madsenj37]

One is not just paying for the TiVo service, one pays for the TiVo experience. The User interface is loads better in my opinion. I can use Yahoo to set-up recordings. I can download shows to my computer. I have never had delay from TiVo when I press the guide button, while Comcast's Motorola DVR freezes several times a week. Setting up a series recording at any time is so easy on TiVo, not for Comcast. The way TiVo can tell first run from new is far superior to Motorola as well. To you, that may not be worth the extra cost. Less hassle and a better experience are worth it to me.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[prator]

Do you actually use one of Time Warner's DVRs? I finally decided to try one a few months back, and I thought it was horrible. The most basic function that I expect a DVR to provide is a simple priority list that will resolve any conflicts that occur when scheduling recordings from season passes.

If I had a three way conflict on the Time Warner box, it would force me to get rid of one of my season passes. It is ridiculous that this kind of functionality could be missing in mainstream DVR.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[Sandbags]

Some of their models do that, others provide conflict priority. Problem is, the box with HDMI is the one that doesn't resolve conflicts... It's a 2 year old model though. A new one, with multi-room broadcast support (to other supporing set top boxes) is in beta and soon to be released (and once your town has them, you can trade out for free). They're also beta testing one with a flash slot so you can copy movies to a card and take them to someone elses house (though from what I understand, it's a proprietary slot/pin-out and you have to buy/rent the cards from time warner if/when they become avaialble.

Re:Why not TiVo?

[mrchaotica]

Can they even legally do that? I mean, the Firewire port was mandated by law; what the fuck was the point if they're allowed to just turn it off?!

Re:Here's some cheese

[Wolvie MkM]

Yea.... speaking of which (rolleyes)

At least there's Tivo

[amigabill]

The title of the OP makes it sound liek you can't buy anything from anyone. I just bought an HD Tivo that takes cablecards. It's going to replace the Verizon FIOS DVR box that I think is a POS, even after being replaced with another.

Re:At least there's Tivo

[asphaltjesus]

you can't buy anything from anyone.

Let's see what happens when you call your cable provider and ask them to put a cablecard in a box you don't rent from them. At the gates of customer service hell that's called an "unsupported device."

Please, prove me wrong.

Re:At least there's Tivo

[Swift Kick]

Actually, I have a TiVo Series 3 that I purchased when I moved to my new condo back in December 2006. I called my cable company (Charter, to be precise), told them I had a TiVo Series 3, and that I wanted 2 cablecards so that I could get their HD channels package.
Two days later, I had a technician over, who plugged the cards in and worked with me on getting everything set up.

No problems, no questions asked, and they even came back a few days later when one of the cards started malfunctioning, and replaced it without incident. I pay an extra $4/month for the cablecards ($2/each), and that's about it. Everything works fine, even Pay-Per-View events like UFC or boxing events, and they've been nothing but helpful whenever I called them with any questions.

I think I just proved you wrong, no?

Re:At least there's Tivo

[amigabill]

OK, I'm on the phone with them right now. I received my HD Tivo from Amazon yesterday and had not yet called for the cablecard.

The guy I talked to didn't give me a hard time at all. I'm scheduled for the service tech this coming Monday morning to install a single multichannel cablecard to my Tivo, and I told him it was a Tivo and why I'm sending their DVR box back, reasons which I describe in another comment here somewhere, so he know's it's a third party box. This guy never said unsupported box or anything like that. I know they don't support things other than plugging in the card and authorizing it, but what more do I need? Maybe I got a good guy on a good day, I don't know, but it wasn't a bad conversation.

I do wish that Verizon's own boxes used cablecards, that way I could just swap it to the Tivo and not have to wait for their tech to start using it.

Re:At least there's Tivo

[konohitowa]

I agree that the tone of the summary makes it sound like the boxes aren't available. I also have the TivoHD with 2 CC in it. And my TV itself came CC ready. Which, while technically not a "set top box", certainly makes it a CC device that I didn't get from the cable company [nor for which I pay a subscription fee].

Re:At least there's Tivo

[jedidiah]

So where's Tivo's competition?

        Listening for the faint sound of crickets.

That's the problem with this whole situation. The best people can come up with is
that the single remaining PVR vendor finally has a unit that you can plug into a
digital cable line. Well having the choice between what the cable company offers
and the offerings of a lone voice in the wilderness wasn't exactly the stated intent
of the FCC here.

        The next Tivo Corp to come along should have the same opportunity
to make it in the market as Tivo did without this highly proprietary,
locked up, DRM-ified crap we have now.

          No one should have to pay the Cable Labs Troll.

Re:At least there's Tivo

[happyfrogcow]

Which is what the article stated.

Oh yeah, this is /.
I must be new here

Re:At least there's Tivo

[konohitowa]

I was referring to boxes, not PVR. The TiVo just happens to also have PVR capability (in addition to CC cable box tuning). Hence my point that I can plug my TV directly into the cable and shove a CC in it. No TiVo nor COX BOX(tm) required.

The PVR issue really comes down to that utterly asinine patent of theirs. It's so incredibly obvious as to be ludicrous. I designed a "tivo" back in '89 or '90 (I called mine MemTV), but hard drive prices/ram prices were too high, and hard drives were too unreliable. One of the first design requirements I wrote down was that I'd need to be able to both read & write to the hard drive at the same time. Duh...

Re:At least there's Tivo

[Lost Engineer]

The reason Tivo has support is that there is actual demand for Tivos because the kick the shit out of Cable Co boxes that are supposed to do the same thing. Their set top boxes pretty much work, so there's no demand. You can't get one for your pc because content providers are a) paranoid b) naive c) inept.

Re:At least there's Tivo

[amigabill]

An update to this, today was the scheduled install as mentioned in my previous post. On the phone a few weeks ago asking for a replacemetn Verizon DVR box I asked what I'd need if I would choose to change to a Tivo and they said a cablecard, and that with the HD Tivo I would only need one, not two cards. When I talked to them again last week to schedule this cablecard install, they again said I'd only need a single cablecard. I checked Tivo's web site, and the HD Tivo indeed is capable of running a single multichannel cablecard for all tuners, while the original Series 3 is currently unable to use multichannel cards, and it must have two cablecards installed even if they each are multistream cards.

But during install, the card status indicates it is a singlestream card, nto a multistream card, meaning I'd need two of them. I was hoping to only pay rent on one multistream card. The installer made two phone calls to different people, one of them who he said was the main person for my Verizon region, and I talked to this guy a bit myself. Turns out Verizon, in Howard County Maryland at least, only has single-stream cablecards. That's what they told me anyway. So I've got two cablecards instead of one. The biggest hassle with the install was waiting for the Tivo unit to download things it needed to download, which took some time of just sitting around and waiting. But the tech was a nice guy, he did check into my multistream card questions, and didn't give me any crap about anyting. He didn't try to talk me into replacing the Verizon box with yet another Verizon box.

My biggest concern is that they're putting this down as a "defective hard drive" as why I'm returning their box. They didn't note the details of the problems I had, which were "bad recording" messages refusing to play back recorded shows and other things I've mentioned elsewhere in this topic. it'd be nice if they investigated why that happened so they can improve their software and prevent others from having these problems.

This is just like

[MeditationSensation]

the cell phone companies. There's no real techincal reason that we can't have cool, open OSes for our phones. They just want to lock us in so that we have to buy their stupid wallpaper, ring tones, etc.

Re:This is just like

[bfree]

Or maybe most people just don't want to pay the true cost of their phone so the service providers have to find some way to make sure they can still make a profit! The fact is right now the market is completely dominated by the carriers so that all major manufacturers have a lot more interest in making certain the carriers want their phones then the end user does.

If this wasn't the case we would have seen dual carrier enabled phones a long time ago, not just add-ons to let you switch from carrier to carrier but the ability to have two active carriers simultaneously (i.e. make a call on either while still accepting calls/call-waiting on both). How many people do you know carrying 2 phones who would happily spend the extra to no longer have the work phone and the personal phone? Any manufacturer building such a device though would probably never find their phones subsidised on any network and hence lose out on the vast majority of the market.

Re:This is just like

[Anonymous Coward]

the cell phone companies. There's no real techincal reason that we can't have cool, open OSes for our phones. They just want to lock us in so that we have to buy their stupid wallpaper, ring tones, etc.

Get yourself a blackberry. RIM releases documentation, SDKs and makes it easy for developers.

Much higher quality of email service than what you'll get with an iphone, and newer models have cameras & play mp3s.

Re:This is just like

[rossz]

You mean like this or this?

Re:This is just like

[Tintivilus]

There's no real techincal reason that we can't have cool, open OSes for our phones. They just want to lock us in so that we have to buy their stupid wallpaper, ring tones, etc.

Where the hell are you getting your phones? I haven't seen a phone in the last three or four years (except the iPhone) that couldn't use any old GIF or JPEG as a "stupid wallpaper" or any supported media file (first iMelody, then MIDI, then MP3, now just about anything) as a ring tone even when it's subsidy locked. And i'm not talking about OMG HAXXORS, I mean "copy jpeg|midi|mp3 to memory card, put card in phone" or "attach jpeg|midi|mp3 to email and send to NUMBER@carrier.com". The most recent example is my locked V3xx from the eeeevil AT&T which has no restrictions on wallpaper or ringtones. Prior to that, I had a locked A630, an unlocked RAZR V3, and unlocked V600. There was no "lock in" on any of them unless you chose to buy DRM'ed files from the carrier, which you'd need to be severely retarded to do.

Buying "ringtones" and "wallpapers" is a tax on not being able to work a memory card or Bluetooth... or email, or MMS. I mean, really, come on.

Re:This is just like

[Scudsucker]

Try Verizon. I have an LG and my sister has a Razr. They both have bluetooth, so I should be able to send her pictures or other files from my phone. Except you can't because you can only send contact information, and in the case of the Razr, the ability to transfer files is pretty much disabled. They want you to send it as a picture message instead, so they can get 50 cents out of the deal.

Re:This is just like

[kimvette]

Or maybe most people just don't want to pay the true cost of their phone so the service providers have to find some way to make sure they can still make a profit!

There are a lot of people out there willing to pay full price for even locked-down phones. iPhone, anyone?

Re:FCC is useless, Congress is useless, see a pate

[BlowHole666]

Quit bitching and get out and vote. Or better yet, move to a new country.

Re:Here's some cheese

[Anonymous Coward]

So... what color would you call your kettle?

Maybe it's not the technology...

[Seakip18]

The technology is out there for this. I think the main problem lies with those who are peddling(or in this case NOT) telling people what they need. From my personal Experience:
My dad bought a 58 inch LCD open box from best buy a month or so ago. No rep explained it's functionality to him really. I forget the make now, but it had a cable card slot and a Hard drive for DVR. Off he goes to get HD from Time Warner. They say "hey, you need a box." They didn't ask what TV he had or if it was Card ready.

Moral of the story?
Come thanksgiving, I'm putting a Cable card in the TV for him and hope there is no ensuing SNAFU that prevents him from getting his HD channels. By himself, he would have had no clue what he needed. His only hope *I* see would have been to get an company cable installer who would see the situation and get him the card.

Re:Maybe it's not the technology...

[Farakin]

Comcast refuses to give me a cable card....refuses. They want me to pay for a box, they say they don't support the card if I put it in my TV. This angers the Norse God within me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki/ Buh Buh Buh black market here i cooommmeeee.....

Re:Maybe it's not the technology...

[Have Blue]

Like the article says, the problem is with the market. There is no demand for CC devices over and above normal closed cable boxes. The fact that renting a box from the cable company includes a de facto service plan for the thing also makes them sufficiently attractive to most people.

Re:Maybe it's not the technology...

[Cramer]

This is actually illegal. If it's a certified device, they must make a cable card work in it.

Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[daveywest]

Disclaimer: I work in marketing for a local (~12000 subscribers including hotel rooms) cable operator.

We rolled out digital cable only because we had to support CableCard. It took six months of searching to find a digital TV that would work with our Scientific Atlanta CableCards. We haven't found any others since.

Talk about a support nightmare. We've had people ask for a CableCard, only to find out that the slot on their TV doesn't even have power connected to it. Thats right, the TV manufacture just molded a spot in the plastic and put a dummy board in there.

Besides, when you use our set top, you get more features. We give away an on-screen programing guide that wouldn't be available with third-party hardware. Trust me, 200+ channels is a pain to flip through trying to find something to watch.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[smooth wombat]

Trust me, 200+ channels is a pain to flip through trying to find something to watch.

No it's not. If I had such a service (and I have no intention of doing so), I'd do what I do now with my ~70 basic cable: block out channels. Religious channels? Begone! Shopping channels? Don't see them. Ad channels? Yeah right. Golf? Get real.

By the time I had blocked out all the channels I didn't want in the first place, I'd probably be down to about the same number I have now. 200 channels? No problem.

Unless you're now going to tell me that using digital cable/set top boxes/whatever, that one can't block channels. If that's the case, then there is absolutely no way I'll be getting any such service.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[Anonymous Coward]

We give away an on-screen programing guide that wouldn't be available with third-party hardware.

Well, if you gave out the specs to the programming guide, then it would be available to third-party hardware, now wouldn't it? This sort of "we have extra features only available on our box" crap is what pisses me off about digital cable.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[amigabill]

Besides, when you use our set top, you get more features. We give away an on-screen programing guide that wouldn't be available with third-party hardware. Trust me, 200+ channels is a pain to flip through trying to find something to watch.

I don't know your system, but here's why I'm trading my Verizon HD DVR box for an HD Tivo:

1. Verizon's guide is wrong about what show is on more often than Tivos was with Comcast cable in my area. neother is wrong significantly often, but Verizon annoyed me more often than Tivo on Comcast ever did.

2. Verizon's box has a habit of turning off when I'm watching stuff. in the first 3 weeks I had it this happened 3 or 4 times. Verizon replaced the box, but did say that this was a known and common problem, which they suspected was somehow related to the new software rollout just about that time. When it turns off, it's totally off as if I'd unplugged it, and I had to wait a few minutes for it to boot up again. I missed the end of a movie because of that.

3. Verizon's DVR refused to play back a number of recordings, giving an error message that they were "Bad Recording"s. There was a different error message I can't remember on one show that wouldn't play back. it suggested perhaps they were from channels I don't subscribe to. Sorry but wrong, I do indeed get the CW and Comedy Central channels as part of my default triple-play package channel lineup. I missed a few episodes of Smallville because of this, as well as South Park and a couple other shows. I do know that a standard box won't play back an HD recording. This problem is about standard shows (Comedy Central is not an HD channel) and also affects playback on the DVR box itself connected to my HDTV. This problem is not at all acceptable. Period.

OK, by tossing this box I lose on-demand, I lose Verizon's own guide, and pay-per-view becomes a phone-order item instead of a push-button item. And I won't get the future torrent support or cellphone scheduling.

I don't care.

What do I hope to get from Tivo? I expect it will be able to play back my recordings. This is by far the most important feature of a DVR box, and Verizon's box is failing to do that way too often for me to keep paying for it.

I'm not losing out on having a guide, I just get Tivo's instead. I'm happy to do that.

I never used on-demand, so I'm not missing that.

Will I miss torrents that I never had? No. Unbox is a good enough thing to replace both future-torrent and on-demand. I'm not even sure I'll use unbox.

The only thing I can think of that I'll actually miss is the other-room playback of recordings. That's kindof nice. Tivo says they would like to offer that in the future, it sounds like a political problem not a technical one. But I do still have my series 2 Tivo for the other room which can duplicate the standard def recordings there, and this feature is not worth paying for the Verizon box which may not allow me to play back a recording even on itself.

And future-cellphone scheduling, well, Tivo allows me to schedule over the net. That's just as good.

For people scammed by their TV manufacturer or ignorant salesman, their particular situation may suck. But I am extremely happy that cablecards exist, and that the cable industry is required to allow something better than their own piss-poor box to be used. That possibility is more important to me than the "convenience" of just using my cable operator's box. The lack of an alternative to what I'm seeing in Verizon's HD DVR box would be very unfriendly to the consumer, and I very much thank congress or the FCC or whoever did it for mandating the possibility of 3rd party alternatives.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[Abcd1234]

Besides, when you use our set top, you get more features.

That seems *exceedingly* unlikely. But, as someone in marketing, I'm sure you've come to believe it.

We give away an on-screen programing guide that wouldn't be available with third-party hardware.

I hate to break it to you, but if your guide data isn't available via TMS, I'd be very surprised (unless your company is also in the business of authoring it's own guide data). And if it's in TMS, it's available to third-party hardware.

Trust me, 200+ channels is a pain to flip through trying to find something to watch.

I'll have to trust you. As the owner of a PVR, I don't remember the last time I had to search through an EPG to find something to watch. I just instruct it to record the shows I like, and they show up. If someone tells me about a show I might like, I hit the Program Finder, set up a recording schedule, and watch it when the episodes appear.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[Tintivilus]

Unless you're now going to tell me that using digital cable/set top boxes/whatever, that one can't block channels. If that's the case, then there is absolutely no way I'll be getting any such service.

That's exactly what I'll tell you. The reason my digital cable box is now plugged into my Myth backend is that it had no provision for deleting unwanted channels or making a channel list like my TV can for analog (and clear-QAM for my new TV) stations. It's amazing that they'd omit such a commonly-used feature so people might be more likely to watch their shopping channels.

If Comcast had just made their STB just -][- this much more user-friendly I wouldn't be using a DVR to skip all their commercials right now.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[batura]

Still, tuning scrambled digital channels takes about 1-3 seconds a flip. So, even it you are watching only 10 of your 200 channels, trying to find something interesting can take awhile (given 5-10 seconds of thought into a show).

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[daveywest]

You missed the point of that quote that involves not paying someone else for the service. Anyone can go buy a Tivo and pay an additional monthly fee to use their own 3rd party set top.

But what happens when your Tivo's hard drive fails? What if it's something worse? You're out the $300-$600 you spent buying that equipment. If the set top you rent from the cable company fails, you get a new one -- no questions asked.

We rent our digital HD DVR set tops for $14 a month. Lowest priced Tivo with those specs is $300. It will take two years to pay my cable company that much in rental fees. Then you've paid an extra $12/month to Tivo for the programing.

As the the comment about flipping through 200+ channels with out a guide: That was in reference someone who just wants a CableCard to use their TV's built-in tuner. I agree with you. When you have that many channels, you need a DVR. But to use a DVR, you need some sort of programing guide. You can get that for free from your cable company, or pay Tivo an extra $12 a month. The idea that ala carte is going to work for cable services (this comment does not refer to programing) just doesn't work.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[Abcd1234]

You missed the point of that quote that involves not paying someone else for the service.

That would be because you never made that point.

But what happens when your Tivo's hard drive fails?

I can't say. I would assume Tivo has some sort of warranty on their products, but I've never owned one. Meanwhile, if one of the drives in my system fails, I just replace it. And because I'm using RAID-based storage, I never have to worry about losing a recording. Can you say the same for your "superior" PVR product?

You can get that for free from your cable company, or pay Tivo an extra $12 a month.

Or you get it for about $1.50 per month from here, and use whichever third party PVR product you prefer (well, aside from TiVo, obviously).

And I will *guarantee* you, my Myth system will do far more than your HD PVR ever will, and is far more expandable and customizable. The only problem is, because cable companies like yours have locked down their systems to third party gear (while offering unbelievably crappy PVR products of their own), I can't get direct access to HD feeds, among other things. Now, that doesn't really bother me much, since I won't be going HD any time soon, and I have a very nice setup for doing capture of SD, but for many it's a deal breaker, and all because cable companies like your own are nothing more than greedy bastards. It's basically the cell phone market all over again.

Now, I will be the first to admit that a setup like mine isn't for many (or even most). But I would be willing to bet you would see a proliferation of new PVR products, and users, if cable operators opened their networks. Further, it might encourage the cable cos to release higher quality PVRs of their own. But, unfortunately, that ain't gonna happen.

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[smooth wombat]

Thanks. I appreciate the heads up. Considering that next month Comcast is raising their rates for the second time this year (~5%) and with what you just told me, I'll be cancelling my service after the final season of Battle Star Galactica.

I'd cancel sooner but I can't get naked broadband in my area. It's either pay $100/month to Comcast for their triple-play or pay $100/month to Verizon for their triple-play.

Isn't competition grand?

Re:Try buying a TV that supports CableCard

[demon]

But what happens when your Tivo's hard drive fails? What if it's something worse? You're out the $300-$600 you spent buying that equipment. If the set top you rent from the cable company fails, you get a new one -- no questions asked.

And what happens when the Moto or SA box screws up? Have you read the customer reviews of the boxes? This is NOT an infrequent occurrence, and in the vast majority of cases, it's not 2 years later - more like 1-2 *months*. I've seen cable customers with cableco DVRs say "The box does weird things, and when I got another box from the cableco, it did the same weird stuff! And I'm on my (third, fourth, fifth, ...) box now! And the cable company has no idea what to do, or they said 'Sorry, known issue, it'll be fixed eventually'! What am I supposed to do?"

Please riddle me that - what *are* they supposed to do? The litany of known issues with both major makers' DVR boxes is astonishing, and guess what - they're in no apparent hurry to fix them, based on the fact that customers keep hitting the same issues, and getting the same shoulder-shrug responses from their cable companies. Where's the fix? Where's the customer satisfaction? Where are the glowing "oh this works so well" reviews, other than the tech sites like CNet that hand out shining reviews like candy at Halloween? The best that most cable customers can muster is "well, it mostly works... it doesn't do a lot, but it *usually* works". I don't think that's okay. Do you?

Analog cable for me....

[jjh37997]

Personally, I don't see the appeal in digital cable. It costs more, requires me to have a cable box, and suffers from pixalization. To me it just seems like a scam for the cable companies to offer me more useless stations at a higher cost. Now if digital cable meant HD too I'd understand why people might be interested but subcribing to HD channels is usually an additional fee added onto the increased digital cable fees, which does not even count the box fees.

Analog cable and a Tivo with lifetime service (buy one on eBay). That's the way to go.

Re:Analog cable for me....

[daveywest]

You can only pack so many analog channels on one cable line. You have to go digital to get more channels. Cable really is a cooperative entertainment venture. You pay for some of the channels I watch, and I pay for some that you watch. When the group as a whole wants to exceed that analog channel limit, everyone has to go to digital.

Re:Analog cable for me....

[taustin]

You can only pack so many analog channels on one cable line.

So, instead of having 99 channels full of crap, and one with something interesting once in while, you have 999 channels full of crap, and one with someting interesting once in a while. And you pay more.

Color me a little skeptical.

The reason to go digital is to get the DVR in the msot convenient way (as opposed to rolling your own).

Re:Analog cable for me....

[Sax Maniac]

I get HD channels and digital cable, pay $9 a month, and have no box. How?

Ordered basic analog cable ("2-13"), plugged it into my TV w/QAM tuner, and bang, I have all the analog channels, a ton of digital channels, and a handful of HD ones. I don't care for PPV or any pay channels. But if you cared, you'd already have it.

I've called them and told them that it does this, so I'm not accused of stealing. They don't care.

So, the question is why BUY digital cable, as opposed to why HAVE digital cable?

Re:Analog cable for me....

[jotok]

Nah.

HD Broadcast + MythTV. THAT is the best way to go :)

Re:Analog cable for me....

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you called them and told them you could easily steal services doesn't protect you if you decide to steal them. Have you seen the fines for doing this? That's why I pay for my services.

Re:Analog cable for me....

[Gadgetfreak]

Same deal here. I have 4 TVs in my tiny condo, which I wired myself for cable. I bought myself a Philips stand-alone 60GB DVR / DVD-RW recorder / DIVX player on eBay, and I'm living large.

I don't have the room for a big fat hi-def flat screen, so for the time being, I'm standard-def only.

It annoys the hell out of me that cable companies charge for service AND extra for the ability to use that service on more than one TV. Gone are the days of people having just one TV... And don't get me started on DVR "rental" fees.

My co worker has naked digital cable. He subscribes to a newsgroup for HD movies, and downloads 'em. Doesn't even watch live TV... and he's fine with it.

I think there are just too many people who just bend over and take it from the cable company without demanding alternatives.

Re:Analog cable for me....

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Yeah, so what? There are about 8-9 channels I watch with any regularity - networks, comedy central, discovery, and a couple other.

Re:Analog cable for me....

[kimvette]

I get it for the guide, mostly, plus the on demand programming. So they're pixellated. Big frigging deal. If I see a movie I like and care enough to watch again with a better quality picture, I buy the DVD. :)

Re:Analog cable for me....

[Sax Maniac]

I've called them, and told them I don't want those channels. I told them that when I ordered, and I told them that when I plugged the cable in my TV and saw extra channels than what I ordered.

What am I supposed to do? Unprogram the extra channels from the TV and not watch them? How would that protect me from being fined?

Or are you saying I must *fork* over $60 for the service they are giving me, even if I don't want it? If that's the case, then why are they selling basic cable at all, if only by ordering it, you'll be fined because they deliver it incorrectly?

Sound like an extortion scheme to me: sure, you can buy the cheaper product but we'll just give you a more expensive product anyway, refuse to give you the cheaper one when you ask, and then fine you if you use it anyway.

Stop and Think This Through...

[asphaltjesus]

I'm the inventory coordinator for a cable company. All of our new DVRs and Digital boxes run off of cable cards.

That would actually be a meaningfully more expensive box than just having everything mounted on a single board. Perhaps this is a legislated requirement. Very hard to say if this is true or not. Let's read on...

It works with our system just fine.
Now we get at the meat of the problem. The point of the legislation was to open the system in question up to OTHERS. As it stands, it appears I can buy a tv with a cablecard, but that's it. Motorola and ScientificAtlanta certainly don't have a card and driver for my PC at Worst Buy or even Fry's.

In common sense terms, the few cable companies that command the industry are probably complying with the letter of law, but effectively maintaining their proprietary silos.

Re:Stop and Think This Through...

[palladiate]

Now we get at the meat of the problem. The point of the legislation was to open the system in question up to OTHERS. As it stands, it appears I can buy a tv with a cablecard, but that's it. Motorola and ScientificAtlanta certainly don't have a card and driver for my PC at Worst Buy or even Fry's.

I'd agree this is a problem. But we don't manufacture the STBs. Cisco and Motorola both make boxes that work just fine on CableCards. We don't jigger our network strange to break any kind of standards compliance. We'd have no problem with a PCI card that let your turn your computer into a DVR, we just aren't going to manufacture the card. We use a standard and it works. If nobody else wants to make consumer equipment, there's little we can do.

Re:Stop and Think This Through...

[tap]

We'd have no problem with a PCI card that let your turn your computer into a DVR, we just aren't going to manufacture the card. Bullshit! The reason no PCI card with cablecard support exists is because the cable companies won't allow it!. There are companies that would love to sell such a thing, but cablelabs won't allow it. In the rest of the world, it's been possible to buy PCI cards with a CI interface for years. It's only here that the cable companies have prevented any hardware for computers from existing.

And claming that a HD STB costs $1200 is bullshit too. If it was true, the cable would loose money for every customer they signed on. By the time they made back the $1200 (16 years at $6/mo), the STB would need to be replaced.

Re:Stop and Think This Through...

[uncqual]

And claming that a HD STB costs $1200 is bullshit too. If it was true, the cable would loose money for every customer they signed on. By the time they made back the $1200 (16 years at $6/mo), the STB would need to be replaced. And don't forget the $5/month in interest (assuming about 5% per year) for that $1200. So at a $6/month charge, only about $1 from the $6 is left for depreciation in order to break even. So, the STB would have to last for 1200/(1*12) = 100 years for this to happen. Only 60 years ago the first practical transistor is demonstrated so if history repeats itself, that STB might be a bit long in the tooth by the time the cable company broke even in 100 years at $6/month.

The more critical question for PVR builders

[Lead Butthead]

Is why can't we buy tuner cards with CABLECARD support?

Re:The more critical question for PVR builders

[Wesley Felter]

There is one CableCard tuner card from ATI; by Googling you can find a ton of articles explaining why CableLabs won't allow you to buy it (unless you buy a complete PC).

Re:The more critical question for PVR builders

[Anonymous Coward]

the answer is simple - because you can't get the crypto keys unless you agree to a license that protects the digital streams end-to-end - reverse engineer as much as you like you still need to factor some large primes to get it working

Yup.

[Nick Driver]

Anybody else think cable TV is for suckers? --josh

Yup. I ditched cable TV about 5 years ago when I realized that I was paying my hard-earned money to get bombarded by commercials. After sitting down in front of the History Channel, Discovery Channel, National Geographic, Comedy Central, and other popular cable channels, I noticed that they always only played 5 minutes of program material, followed by 5 to 8 minutes of commercials, followed by 5 minutes of program, followed by 5 to 8 minutes of commercials, etc. Greater than 50% of the "airtime" was nothing but freakin' commercials. I then realized how stupid I was for paying for this rubbish and promptly canceled my cable and have never looked back.

Re:Yup.

[Abcd1234]

I noticed that they always only played 5 minutes of program material, followed by 5 to 8 minutes of commercials, followed by 5 minutes of program, followed by 5 to 8 minutes of commercials

Too bad that's just flat out wrong. I would know, I have a Myth system that automatically skips the commercials, and it tells me how long the skip period is. On the worst networks, I'm seeing 4-4.5 minute breaks, and that's every 10-12 minutes, I'd guess. The only time it gets as bad as you describe is during sports, or toward the end of movies (of course, I'd never watch a network-broadcast movie in the first place).

Re:Yup.

[mikael]

I gave up on paying for premium TV on Cable after the Sky/VirginMedia squabble over the payments for Sky One/Sky News channels - these were basically satellite TV channels that were rebroadcast through the cable TV network - Sky One has the one advantage of having the latest episodes of each series (Lost, Battlestar Galactica, SG-1, Farscape).

After those channels got pulled, there was no incentive for me or around 500,000 viewers to continue subscribing. After that, I just realized I was paying for junk channels. So I downsized to the freeview rate (saving 20 pounds/month). Now the same junk channels have reappeared at freeview rates.

Re:Yup.

[drxenos]

No he is correct. I have timed it several times when I first noticed it. It may not be every program and every channel. I know that they did that when Lost aired. Every five minutes, like clockwork. It gets worse all the time. Ever watch a DVD of an old 70s show? 50 to 55 minutes of program. Compare that to contemporary shows in which you get only 44 minutes. I am not sure how many minutes you get for the ones that go to commercial every 5 minutes.

Re:Yup.

[Fulcrum of Evil]

How about Spike? They seem to absolutely awful with commercials - movies run an extra half hour.

Re:Yup.

[Abcd1234]

It may not be every program and every channel.

Fine, he's wrong for the vast majority of channels and programs. And I, personally, have *never* seen this, except for, as I say, toward the end of movies or during sports programs.

I know that they did that when Lost aired.

I don't know what episodes you were watching, but I've been watching Lost since it started, and I've never noticed this behaviour.

Compare that to contemporary shows in which you get only 44 minutes.

Thank you for proving my point for me. If he were right, programs would be 30 minutes or less after commercials are removed. But that isn't the case, as you yourself pointed out.

That's not to say it's not worse today than it once was (as you say, older programs, such as ST:TOS, have much shorter commercial breaks, on the order of 2.5-3 minutes a pop, spread further apart), but it's hardly 50% content and 50% ads.

Re:Yup.

[Abcd1234]

I already mentioned movies being a special case (all networks, especially toward the end, will pack in the commercials during movie airings), which is why I never watch movies on TV unless they're being aired on a specialty channel such as Movie Central. OTOH, I don't watch Spike, save for their syndicated programming, so while they're no worse than any others, in those cases, I have no idea what they're like when airing original material.

Re:Yup.

[drxenos]

Where do you live? Maybe it is different or different part of the world. Where I live, Lost went to commercial EVERY five minutes. It was when I first noticed the trend (and I watched every episode). I've noticed Bionic Woman doing the same thing (though I do not know if it has been since the start). Other shows, like SG-1, did not.

Re:Yup.

[drxenos]

Thank you for proving my point for me. If he were right, programs would be 30 minutes or less after commercials are removed. But that isn't the case, as you yourself pointed out.

The "44 minutes" was in reference to contemporary shows that DO NOT go to commercial every 5 minutes, which does nothing to prove your point. I do not know the actual program length of the shows with more frequency commercial breaks (as I stated in my previous post), because I did not time how long they showed the commercials.

Re:Yup.

[Abcd1234]

Where do you live? Maybe it is different or different part of the world.

That seems pretty unlikely, given that the programs are shot expecting a certain commercial break structure. Anyway, I watch Lost on whichever US network carries it (NBC? I don't remember...), so if it's got a 5x5 commercial break structure, I'd notice. Meanwhile, go download yourself an episode of Lost, it'll be 40 minutes long, meaning a 2:1 ratio of programming to commercials. And if they are breaking to commercial every 5 minutes where you are, it's only because they're also reducing down the commercial breaks to ~2 minutes in length.

Re:Yup.

[drxenos]

The current trend that really annoys me is the channels now air advertisement WHILE the show is running (at the bottom of the screen--and it seems to get bigger all the time). I am already watching their channel. Do they really need to advertise their other shows on top of the one I can currently watching? Worse, these ads will cover any captions at the bottom (when someone is speaking a foreign language) and some even have there own sound effects! And I thought the "bugs" where annoying!

Re:Yup.

[drxenos]

Well, I really don't care if you choose not the believe me. As I said, I timed it on several occasions. Just because it was aired one way for you, doesn't mean it was the same for he or me. Downloading an episode does not help if it commercial free. DVDs always have more content that is cut out to make room for the commercials. And depending on when they air, you can get more or less show. There is an episode of Buffy that runs long. They choose to let it run long the first time they aired it, but subsequent times, it was cut back.

Re:Yup.

[Abcd1234]

Just because it was aired one way for you, doesn't mean it was the same for he or me.

If that's the case, whoever is airing the programming in your area is actually *cutting out* some of the programming. Lost, just like other shows, is aired expected breaks in specific positions. Heck, major plot points, etc, are often revealed just before a break. So if they're changing the break structure, they're actively screwing around with the program content.

Frankly, I'm not even sure networks would *allow* a cable company, etc, to cut down their programming in order to show more ads, as that qualifies as creating a derivative work, as they're modifying the copyrighted content they're receiving from the network.

Downloading an episode does not help if it commercial free.

Of course it helps. It specifically tells you how many non-commercial minutes are present in a particular airing.

DVDs always have more content that is cut out to make room for the commercials.

Huh? I never said download a DVD rip. Download a recent airing of any program you like. These shows, which aren't available on DVD yet, will have been ripped from regular ol' network broadcasts (these days, probably the HD equivalent). Such a recording will tell you precisely how much program content was available when the show was aired.

They choose to let it run long the first time they aired it, but subsequent times, it was cut back.

Running long and then being cut back to normal broadcast length is one thing. Cutting out ten minutes or more from a 40 minute show, though, is entirely another, and would be a) extremely noticeable, and b) probably illegal unless it's done with the consent of the broadcast network.

Re:Yup.

[toddestan]

Fine, he's wrong for the vast majority of channels and programs. And I, personally, have *never* seen this, except for, as I say, toward the end of movies or during sports programs.

I guess it depends on what you count as ads. I haven't watched much TV in the past 4-5 years either, but I have noticed things like running ads while the credits are running (in a small box in the corner) is common now, which seems to net another 1-2 minutes of ads per hour for shows like ST:TNG. Along with color, moving, with sound(!) banner and pop up ads that run during the show. You could even get to near 100% if you wanted to count the ever-present watermark (now with color and animated) that many channels throw up on the screen. And then there is always product placement.

Why would I want it?

[Steve525]

Most of the article describes how difficult it is to replace your cable company's basic STB with your own basic STB. It admits that there are options for DVRs (Series 3 and HD Tivo) and you can get cable card enabled TV.

My conclusion is the reason you can't replace the cable company's box with your own is that no one would want to. This isn't a great conspiracy, it's just that the STB manufacturers aren't going to try to sell a product that no one wants. Why would anyone want to replace one box with another box that does the same thing? The only motivation I could envision is cost, but the rental fees for the boxes aren't usually that high.

For a consumer, using the cable card to use a better DVR or to get rid of the STB entirely is worthwhile. So, the market has responded by providing these options. However, there's no motivation for someone to choose a different basic STB than the one the cable companies provide.

Re:Why would I want it?

[FuzzyFox]

The reason that the set-top box manufacturers are not willing to sell directly to the consumer, is due to support costs. They don't want to have to staff a support organization to answer customers' stupid questions about their product. They would rather that the cable operators field those calls, and only pass real issues on to the box manufacturers.

Re:Why would I want it?

[realmolo]

I agree. If you have to buy a box, you might as well get the one the cable company provides.

However, if you have a TV and/or DVR that supports CableCard, it makes it a hell of a lot easier to use all of that stuff together. That's what it's really for.

Re:Why would I want it?

[amigabill]

My conclusion is the reason you can't replace the cable company's box with your own is that no one would want to.

I hate boxes. I hate piles of boxes. I'd absolutely prefer a cablecard in a TV than a TV with a basic cable box. The only reason I have the two standard boxes is because those TVs won't work on FIOS without it. I'm slightly tolerant of a DVR box because it does more than just be a TV tuner, but I'd still rather reduce the clutter.

Re:Why would I want it?

[Steve525]

I hate boxes.

I agree with you. For instance, what's the point of having a small flat LCD screen in the kitchen, if you need this big box to go with it. However, my point, and the point of the original article was that you can't buy a box other than the one the cable companies provide. You can, however, by a cable card enabled TV just fine. The uptake has been slow, and they are pricier than they should be, but there are plenty of models out there. (Because of the price, it may be hard to find a small TV that's cable card ready, though).

You should check whether FIOS can work with cable cards. I think it does, but not everything is supported.

Ebay All Day

[Kancer]

I got mine from e-bay and I just got the cable cards from my Comcast billing center. I pay $5 a month for the card.

Re:Ebay All Day

[astrokid]

How many cards do you use? The first one should have been free Comcast Cablecard FAQ additional ones do carry a fee but I didn't think it would be as much as $5 per card.

No one reads the Firehose Related Stories links?

[HTH NE1]

The current offering from Time Warner Cable of their "mystro" software prevents me from using all the features of the TiVo connected to it.

If I dare try to change the channel at precisely the time that guide data is updated on the channel I am leaving, the box may fail to change channels, change to the wrong channel, or even crash. Every recording I make has to be padded by at least one minute start and end to avoid this bug, even back-to-back recordings on the same channel. (Networks shifting start and end times by a minute is exacerbating the problem.)

This requires me to disable the TiVo's Suggestions feature as they cannot be padded.

I can't use TWC's cable box at all with the Series1 units as they lack the ability to trim their recordings in response to a neighboring-in-time padded recording: one or the other recording would not be recorded.

I've been subjected to these boxes for more than a year now (I'm in one of their beta-test cites) and the company has thumbed its nose at local officials demanding a resolution to and restitution for the problems.

The only thing that has alleviated the problem is getting a CableCARD-enabled TiVo, though it too has had difficulty with cards that lose the signal and will not reacquire it without a restart or (disliked by TWC) ejecting and re-inserting the offending card which I've had to do three times so far. And of course it's the card in CableCARD slot 1.

This is 2007...

[technopinion]

It really is inexcusable that there is no way for me to get HDTV into my HTPC without using a goddamn OTA card with a big antenna on the roof.

Re:This is 2007...

[scottv67]

It really is inexcusable that there is no way for me to get HDTV into my HTPC without using a goddamn OTA card with a big antenna on the roof.

That isn't true where I live (Time Warner Cable territory). I have a TV tuner card in one of my PCs (connected to TWC coax) and I can get all of the local TV stations in HD. It's the same content that I would get if I put up an antenna that could receive the HD content. I can record CBS in HD, ABC in HD, NBC in HD and FOX in HD until I run out of hard drive space.

Now if you were really complaining about premium channels and not the local TV stations, that's a whole different story.

Re:This is 2007...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's not.

Two things...

[Jinjuku]

Save me a bunch of money every year: Netflix and the hard to find and yet amazing ability not to HAVE IT NOW. Since when did TV become such a big issue?

Re:Two things...

[r_jensen11]

When it became nearly commonplace for a house hold to have such big TV's?

TiVo is all you need!

[WndrBr3d]

Honestly, the reason you don't see any market for 3rd party CableCARD devices is because of two reasons:

1) TiVo
2) CableCARDs are not user friendly

The first one is obvious. TiVo Series3 and TiVoHD are the only set top units that are currently on the market because there isn't a call for any others. TiVo has been able to make ends meet because of a loyal fan base and recurring monthly charges. A competing product would probably not be able to even grab 0.5% market share between cable companies and TiVo. So it makes sense that there's no other commercial units out there.

The second reason was something I learned after purchasing a TiVoHD. CableCARDs are not user friendly, period. You'd think it would be as simple as inserting a PCMCIA card and calling the cable company to turn them on, but there's more. Firmware updates, signal quality issues, hardware failure. The list can go on. Basically, you will need a cable tech to make sure your house has a strong enough signal for CableCARDs and then, while they're there, might as well have them install it. Sure, the $50+ installation fee is BS, but that's the price you pay I suppose.

So in the end, I think that Cable Companies will continue to try and push their shitty DVR's with their firmware lacking features TiVo has had for over five years onto ignorant consumers. CableCARDs will become a niche market that Cable Companies only service because of federal regulation.

but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorrent

[jollyreaper]

I swear, these companies have got to get their shit together. Make it easy and people will come. Right now, it's still less of a headache to pirate shit and have total control of how it's used. That, and don't be dicks about what you're charging for the service. Back 5 years ago, hunting down a full run of a show took ages. Want an anime? Try hunting down 26 episodes of mixed format, quality, and availability. Good luck. But it's worth the time if the jerkwads are charging $250 for the series. But some shows are out on DVD now for as low as $40 or $50 for an entire run. Wow! And for live action TV, I've seen some going for as low as $25 for a season. Nice. But just try and buy that stuff electronically, it's DRM'd out the ass and the prices are no cheaper than for physical media. WTF? No distribution cost, no shelving fee, no gas involved, and we're paying full freight? I don't think so.

It's all in the ratios

[raygundan]

If 1/99 of everything on TV is crap, and you get 990 channels... hopefully you get ten times as much watchable stuff as you do with 99 channels.

It's like the internet, where we've got a reliable 99.99999999% crap-rating, containing every sort of garbage from the goatse man to Klingon Furry Fanfic to blogs about other blogs that are about blogging about blogs. There's just SO MUCH STUFF on the internet that you can always find something interesting to read, despite the overwhelming crapflood.

Re:It's all in the ratios

[Anonymous Coward]

GOATSE IS NOT GARBAGE. It's a transcendental meditation on the flexibility of human nature. Get some taste.

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[Grishnakh]

BitTorrent is the way I watch TV almost exclusively now. I don't have to pay for cable service (only cable internet), and I just download the shows I want to see, in full HD glory, and watch them on a computer connected to my HDTV. My wife really loves it because we can pause and rewind, and best of all we don't have to sit through obnoxious commercials. And of course, it's all free, except for the internet service.

Cable companies have had their chance to offer TV shows in a convenient and cost-effective format, and they've completely blown it. I'm not going to waste my time and deal with the hassle of conforming to their stupid DRM schemes, and ridiculous pricing (usually over $100/month for HD service, with terrible compression), when I can just get what I want on BitTorrent. Besides, most of the worthwhile shows are on the main networks and PBS anyway; for cable, the only channels with worthwhile programming are Discovery and Sci-Fi. $100/month for two HD channels? And I have to watch it on their schedule and with commercials? I don't think so.

Re:FCC is useless, Congress is useless, see a pate

[dal20402]

Quit bitching and get out and vote.

We did that in 2006. It had no effect.

As long as the bulk of voters are easily manipulable through expensive TV ads, the ultimate loyalty of politicians will be to those who fund the expensive TV ads.

FCC Fails Again - Vote with your Wallet

[CCMCornell]

[Note, I left this same reply on TFA's comments but thought I'd copy it here cuz slashdot is cooler.]

This reminds me of a deadline a few years ago set by the FCC to include working firewire ports on set-top boxes. This would allow a digital connection to certain TV's as well as to recorders like D-VHS or computers (using D-VHS emulators.)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/02/01/does-your-cable-box-have-a-firewire-port

That mandate deadline came and passed without compliance as well. Boxes never had ports, or had ports removed even though OEM's like SA and Moto included them, or had ports that weren't functional.

The FCC has been a joke since it was created. Like most of government, despite any good intentions, it has proved ineffectual in enforcing many of its own mandates that has resulted in loss to the consumers while effectively enforcing protections for certain corporations like the Cable Cos resulting in loss to competition.

For me, I've given up. I've basically voted with my feet and stopped subscribing to cable. If I hear about something of interest, I can usually download it or have a friend record it or wait for it on DVD and rent it. The result is that I watch less TV, which may be a good thing or maybe I miss things I would enjoy or maybe it doesn't make a real difference except that the Cable Cos, as well as the content creators, advertisers other related businesses and the FCC (through included taxes), are not getting my money because of this stupidity. You may want to consider the same.

All I want is unencrypted QAM...

[bbroerman]

What I really want is unencrypted QAM for the digital (and HD??) channels that are equivalent to what they would normally make available in the "Cable-Ready" tier. Seriously, if they are going to make these available in analog, why not digital? With analog televisions going away, this would make a lot of sense from a customer's perspective... I guess, though, that the cable companies feel like they can get more money doing it this way, and soon "Cable Ready" will be no more... I'm sure some cable TV spokesman (or lawyer) will equate "Cable Ready" to theft...

Re:All I want is unencrypted QAM...

[3waygeek]

Many operators do offer clear QAM for local HD channels. IIRC, there's a FCC rule that requires operators that carry local HD channels to carry them in the clear.

Re:All I want is unencrypted QAM...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm...I'm confused. I have Comcast basic analog cable and I get the locals in digital and HD via unencrypted QAM. Don't you?

Re:All I want is unencrypted QAM...

[bbroerman]

I'm thinking the other cable ready channels, like Discovery, Sci-Fi, History, etc. I get these (and about 70 others) on my analog televisions (not to mention my SageTV DVR) through cable ready, but only the 4 locals in digital...

Re:All I want is unencrypted QAM...

[demon]

Oh, there's a mandate about it - but about as many cable MSOs follow that mandate as follow the mandate that their boxes provide working IEEE1394 ports. Which is to say, some, but not a lot...

Re:All I want is unencrypted QAM...

[demon]

They won't do that, because the content providers won't let them. If they did, the content providers would shut them down so fast, it would make their heads spin. The content providers are paranoid about having their content stolen by the end user - stolen and sold or traded on the Internets. (Never mind that it happens anyway - they want to have something in place to fight it.) Also, the cable companies like being able to push a button and enable/disable channels for you - if they're all provided unencrypted, they can't do that (and they can't just use filters with QAM channels like they did with analog cable, as multiple video/audio muxed streams are bundled into a single 256QAM channel).

what a headache

[atarione]

everything about the situation with TV in America is a headache inducing mess.... when I was single I didn't even own a TV (for over 5yrs) then ...now the Mrs. LIKES TV (why I can't say....98% of the stuff on seems to be garbage)

I HATE the $20 (2x boxes $10ea) (on top of the huge amount we are paying for basically (every???) premium channel ..... seriously it makes me angry... but looking at the alternatives ... meh... it is easier to just live with it.

If it was up to me I'd bag cable altogether (maybe maybe...keep basic...but i'd likely be fine ditching it) and just d/l'ing the occasional shows I gave a damn about...

Wake me up when bi-directional CableCards are here

[melstav]

Last time I checked, (which admittedly was some months ago) the only CableCARDs that were available were one-way.

IE: You couldn't use them to do anything that requires your cable box send data back to the cable company... like browsing on-demand content.

Once bi-directional CableCARDS are available, maybe then I'll care enough about whether I can buy a set-top box to put it in.

One would think...

[Orig_Club_Soda]

with all the bitching and moaning, consumers would direct their "I want it my way even if its illegal" energy at the cable companies and their "DRM'd" signals. That's what these set top boxes do, limit us to the cable companies hardware and services. ...And it's way more draconian than Microsoft or Apple!

I use my Mac mini for PVR. I wont upgrade to digital or HD until I have to, or they open it up. (I get free HD because I bought a TV with a coaxil jack and tuner). I am already pay $50 a month for extend basic analog. If I paid what Comcast wanted me to pay for the same experience, it would be closer to $150 a month. ...Can we get all you rowdy 'n needy Democrats complaining that TV is more expensive than healthcare!?

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[jollyreaper]

BitTorrent is the way I watch TV almost exclusively now. I don't have to pay for cable service (only cable internet), and I just download the shows I want to see, in full HD glory, and watch them on a computer connected to my HDTV. My wife really loves it because we can pause and rewind, and best of all we don't have to sit through obnoxious commercials. And of course, it's all free, except for the internet service. Interestingly enough, Microsoft is sort of blowing it with their xbox live service. I picked up a 360 recently for the games, I didn't even know they were doing all that other stuff with it. And it's really a cool service -- naturally, it was developed by a third party at Microsoft's request. But they do enough stupid shit there that they ultimately make it not entirely worth my while. Yes, you can download shows "to own" but they provide no mechanism to move them off the built-in hard drive. The bigger drive, 120gb, costs $179. You can't even buy the movies, just rent them. You can stream movies off a Windows Media Center computer but only if all the DRM is happy. FUCK THAT. I can hook up a laptop to the TV and do the same thing, no skin off my nose. There are also wireless removes for laptops now and I could plug that in if I don't want to have to keep getting up off the couch to change shows.

Microsoft is like 90% of the way towards not just owning but pwning the entertainment center machine market. But what's holding them back, that last 10%, is the market droid bullshit. I guess that's a good thing for the rest of us, just like Vista's suckitude is providing the impetus for more open source development, cuz what need would there be for Linux if Windows did everything we needed and was mostly harmless, mostly enjoyable?

Cable companies have had their chance to offer TV shows in a convenient and cost-effective format, and they've completely blown it. I'm not going to waste my time and deal with the hassle of conforming to their stupid DRM schemes, and ridiculous pricing (usually over $100/month for HD service, with terrible compression), when I can just get what I want on BitTorrent. Besides, most of the worthwhile shows are on the main networks and PBS anyway; for cable, the only channels with worthwhile programming are Discovery and Sci-Fi. $100/month for two HD channels? And I have to watch it on their schedule and with commercials? I don't think so. I came to that same realization a few years back. I'd purchased a satellite system and it was really cool but I realized that the shows I wanted to watch only came on a few times per month. What was the point in paying so much money for so little utilization?

I would totally support a system that included micropayments at a reasonable fee for shows I was interested in seeing. But as is, they're charging an arm and a leg rate and DRM us so much, it feels like they should be paying us to deal with this bullshit.

You have eight Tivos?!

[Anonymous Coward]

You have eight Tivos? OMFG. I guess this really is slashdot, isn't it.

Re:You have eight Tivos?!

[raddan]

He watches a lot of porn. Octopus.

Totaly ignores the problem

[bdraw]

Not sure how ars spent all this time on this article and didn't ever say why consumer electronics companies have yet to release a stand alone STB.

It's because of the lack of support for the OpenCable platform. No consumer electronics company is going to release a one-way stb and the only way to have two way is to support OpenCable (formerly OCAP). But the problem is that most cable companies don't support it, since it was just recently ratified by CableLabs. Once OpenCable is more widespread you will see more devices deploying CableCARDs, but I doubt you will ever see that many stand alone STBs, cause most people would rather not have a box at all.

why so much of everything is crap

[raygundan]

Anonymous Coward says:

GOATSE IS NOT GARBAGE. It's a transcendental meditation on the flexibility of human nature. Get some taste.

The coward makes a good point, and it's important to remember this, as well. Despite what you think about 99% of what's on TV, it's only there because somebody is watching it.

Re:why so much of everything is crap

[taustin]

Despite what you think about 99% of what's on TV, it's only there because somebody is watching it.

You have cause and effect reversed. The only reason 99% of it ever gets watches is because once you've watched the other 1%, crap is all that's left to watch.

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[bigstrat2003]

You can stream movies off a Windows Media Center computer but only if all the DRM is happy. FUCK THAT. Sort of. It's only in certain formats, which is irritating, but you can also get software which apparently re-encodes your video on the fly. Look into Transcode 360, I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to have potential.

what need would there be for Linux if Windows did everything we needed and was mostly harmless, mostly enjoyable? Well, it already does that, so you'd better tell the Linux teams to stop working on their stuff. The need for Linux is obvious: choice. Even if I prefer Windows, I appreciate having the choice to move to Linux available if I should choose to use it. Hell, even though I think Mac OS is a heaping pile of suck, I appreciate having it out there: more options. Other people like it, good for them, it doesn't bug me, I just choose not to use it.

I wanted Cablecard...

[brxndxn]

I have Brighthouse (Manatee County, FL). I wanted to buy the $300 Tivo. So.. I found out it needs 2 cablecards.

Right now, I pay $10/month for a piece of shit Scientific Atlanta DVR. I've had to get it replaced twice (waiting in long-ass lines at the cable company.) The set top box barely works.

So.. I asked about buying Cablecards. They told me I cannot buy them. Also, they told me each one costs $395/month to lease. Though, later, I found out it was $3.95/month to lease. I was also told that it takes a long time to get them and they must come and install it in my box. (I can't just go in and pick up two cablecards and slide them in my Tivo.)

Right now: $10/month..
For Tivo: $300 one time, + $12.95 tivo service, + 2 * 3.95 cablecards = $20.85/month

Is it worth it? Maybe..

But for now, I'll stick to trying to rely on my piece-of-shit Scientific Atlanta box and downloading everything it misses off the Internet.

Re:I wanted Cablecard...

[amigabill]

For Tivo: $300 one time, + $12.95 tivo service, + 2 * 3.95 cablecards = $20.85/month

Amazon has it now for $254. I got mine with free shipping and no sales tax too. Yea, it's still a big upfront cost, but a little less than $300 everywhere else.

Re:I wanted Cablecard...

[Spuggy]

If it makes you feel better, if you're willing to subscribe for 3 years, you can get the service a fair amount cheaper than $12.95 / month.

Also, I've stated this already in this thread, but a common misconception is that the Comcast DVR service is only $10 / month. At least in my area, if you take a look at your bill, there's a separate $6 charge for each DVR that I have. With the price you're citing on Amazon, you'll actually come out ahead vs. just renting the Comcast boxes for the same period of time.

Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[dpbsmith]

OK, off-topic, but this is going to affect more people even more severely.

We're now barely a year away from the day when they pull the plug on analog TV, and despite statements at the FCC website saying that "you can buy set-top converter boxes now," none are to be had. Not unless they mean $200-$300 video recorders that incidentally provide that feature as a side-effect.

Like Ars Technica, I, too, have been "standing on the doorstep, wad of cash in hand, yelling, 'Please take my money! I want to buy!' but am turned away." Or more correctly, "you want a what?"

Ironically, every store that sells TVs has employees glad to explain that their remaining stock of analog TVs won't work in a year, but when you ask them to sell you one of the set-top boxes the FCC says are available, so the analog TV I already own will work a year from now, they act clueless.

I've tried asking for it under every name I can think of. "Digital-to-analog set-top converter box" (the FCC's own term). "Digital TV converter." "Downconverter." "Digital tuner." " No dice. The most clueful I've found was someone who said "You don't need one, all of our TVs and video recorders have one built in." "But I don't want to buy a new TV. I just want one of the standalone tuners, which the FCC says should sell for $50 to $70." "Well, you'd better buy one from the FCC, then, because we don't have any."

The FCC is full of great stories about wonderful coupons in the sky. I don't want a coupon, I just want to buy one of the set-top boxes the FCC is available now for the $50 to $70 the FCC says they should cost.

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's weird that they aren't available in the US. Finland killed its analog OTA network just a month ago. STBs have been the most popular way of upgrading to digital tv. Some of them are small enough to just plug the entire thing into the SCART socket like this: http://www.elektroni.fi/tuotekuvat/technotrend_scart-tv_big2.jpg
I just checked a big retailer's website and the cheapest STB is 35 euros.

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[Molochi]

An Afterdawn published LG pr release http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/11419.cfm dated oct9,2007 states that LG has only recently began manufacturing an OTA-HD to NTSC converter box. It also says that they are the first to do so.

Of course, whether they exist or not is pointless to me. I do own a HDTV-Wonder card that does the same thing, but the signal at my house is too weak to receive anything more than 15 seconds of HD programming, followed by a still image, followed by a bluescreen until another cloud/airplane passes overhead to bounce down some more signal.

But at least it looks like they should soon be available.

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[mattack2]

Googling ATSC tuner, then going to the cheaper alternative listed from Amazon found this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NW7A2G

Under $100 standalone ATSC tuner.

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[daveywest]

Most of the comments from the FCC I've seen say these will be available in early 2008. Plus, you can get 2 $40 off coupons per household next year.

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[socsoc]

Or you could purchase a new tv? Seriously, the people complaining about losing analog tv need to update their equipment. You seriously don't have a newish tv or subscribe to satellite/cable?

You have my sympathy for the 4 local channels you're losing...

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[ratboy666]

I do not a "newish" TV. I have a 32" analog tube, and a 42" analog rear projection 16x9 format (analog, including component input, 1080i, and *yes*, it resolves 1080i in its full glory, unlike most "newish" TVs).

I subscribe to basic cable, but only as a side effect of cable internet... The only way I have to effectively drive the 42" is to download shows from bittorrent, and feed them out through a "newish" video card to component.

I also use a media extender box to drive the 32". Does a good job for the 32" (which also has component inputs).

Why should I bother to upgrade my kit?

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[socsoc]

If you subscribe to cable, your receiver is going to do all the translating for you. You don't have to upgrade your kit unless you want HD-DVD or anything that requires something more advanced than component.

The analog conversion issue is for people that use OTA signals. 2009 will come and your TVs will continue to work as expected.

Re:Why can't I buy a digital-to-NTSC set-top box?

[n6kuy]

That's cool.

I really like the "digital HDTV" antenna they have advertised as an accessory. I wonder how the antenna distinguishes between digital and analog signals?

Cable companies moving towards DCAS

[StandardCell]

CableCard is expensive to deploy and difficult to do correctly, as many consumers have had problems and the finger pointing between the Consumer Electronics companies and the cable companies continues. Couple that with fragmentation on emerging standards (e.g. unidirectional multi-stream cable card vs. bidirectional M-card and its head-end equipment implications) and you can see that this is a huge problem.

The real path in digital cable is ClearQAM (i.e. unencrypted digital cable) that will eventually transition to DCAS, with CableCard being the lame horse in the race. The Downloadable Conditional Access System (DCAS) is better to the cable companies because:

1. They don't have to deal with any kind of external hardware in terms of inventories and so on.
2. Nobody from the cable company needs to go and activate the hardware (i.e. tens of billions in deployment costs for personnel, vehicles and equipment), because it's all done from the head end.
3. The Conditional Access system is inherently downloadable, meaning it can be renewed if cracked (similar to BD+ on Blu-Ray).
4. The Conditional Access system is embedded inside the chip with special design methods that prevent it from being hacked from the outside. Before you go off on me on this one, note that it's part of the contract when you license the IP that the hardware has a very specific path to transfer information that can't be addressed by additional logic and subjects you to an economic death penalty if you do - no more peeking into internal registers or external memory since all of that has to be encrypted from the inside and done so by design from the beginning.
5. Even if you do go to the extent of de-lidding the chip and attempting to find the secrets, the cable companies can send electronic bullets to disable a cracked device if so found.
6. Content recording and sharing is automatically DRM protected from the head-end's instructions, so only compliant devices within a particular approved secure media sharing framework can transfer the content.

It's a content producer's and cable company's simultaneous wet dream. The cable guys are interested ultimately in selling gravy (i.e. programming), not leasing or selling hardware that needs to be maintained, stocked, etc.. Even the satellite guys that I've talked to have said as much. When you also consider that Broadcom, the very dominant player in Set Top Box chips, is itself pushing DCAS, you can see where this is going. Heck, even Verizon last year tried to throw a monkey wrench in the works by writing a letter to the FCC so it could use DCAS for its new Fiber-to-the-Premises IPTV network. The poor bastards who get the shaft now are the companies providing digital TV chips with cable box functionality embedded, although this is also why Broadcom is intent on pushing this through as a first-mover advantage in the DTV chip market.

Don't fret too much on this one - it's all already essentially been decided for you. The unfortunate aspect of this is that the early adopters are going to get the shaft.

My my my, thing really are tough, eh?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Trust me, 200+ channels is a pain to flip through trying to find something to watch"

Only in a slothful and ungrateful USA would such an abundance of riches be considered a hardship. Statements like this serve as proof your country is on the decline.

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[Scudsucker]

I think Apple is 95% there with their subscriptions and unobtrusive DRM. They just need high def and NBC needs to get their greed under control.

Chicken and Egg?

[asphaltjesus]

I have a feeling that there's been a conversation where some go-getter is "maximizing the monetization" of their services.

A cable card that can plug into a PC probably won't ever fly because neither the card manufacturer nor the cable co. nor the entertainment conglomerates want it to happen. All of whom have great legislative access.

Yes indeed!

[asphaltjesus]

I got the "not supported" speech from time warner cable in my area.

I'll have to try again...

The Cable Companies Win

[JumperCable]

Hey, I give up. I still don't subscribe to Cable. They win. I've been waiting for my own cablecard linux box to set up. I just guess I'll have to wait a lot longer.

Excessive commercials from local cable franchise

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad that's just flat out wrong. I would know, I have a Myth system that automatically skips the commercials, and it tells me how long the skip period is.

Your Myth system didn't exist 5 years ago when the OP said he ditched cable. My local cable TV franchise used to do the very same thing, inserting ridiculously abusive amounts of local adverts into the video stream, often overwriting/truncating the program feed itself on practically all the "non-premium" channels, until just a couple years ago when the cable company's franchise agreement was up for renewal before the city council. A very large group of us upset cable customer citizens got together and basically dominated the city council meeting and made it very plain that we did not want the franchise agreement renewed unless the cable company stopped this crap, or we would be electing a brand new city council and mayor over this issue. The local cable company franchise was forced to accept new language in their contract with the city which stipulated no more than 4 minutes of commercials in a run (eight 30-second spots) just like the broadcast TV stations used to do. In fact, the manager of one of our local TV stations helped write the new contract language for the franchise agreement for the city since he is also an attorney.

Re:Wake me up when bi-directional CableCards are h

[Anonymous Coward]

OM - I build settops - ALL cablecards are bidirectional, always have been from day 1 - but Cablelabs (belongs to the cable companies) will not OK 2-way settops unless they also support OCAP (a java box so that the cable companies can download their own code into your box and control your experience)

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[Grishnakh]

>what need would there be for Linux if Windows did everything we needed and was mostly harmless, mostly enjoyable?
Well, it already does that, so you'd better tell the Linux teams to stop working on their stuff.

Um, no. Windows is sure as hell not "enjoyable", unless you like feeling like you're fighting with your computer any time you try to do something different from the way MS ordained as the correct way. It's also not harmless, as it has WGA and has been proven to send private info back to MS.

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[bigstrat2003]

Well, as for your "not harmless" contention, that falls into the harmless camp for me. I don't give a flying fuck about private info, though.

As far as your "enjoyable" contention, that's pure bs, in my not all-that-humble opinion. I enjoy using Windows a hell of a lot more than Linux, things aren't a chore just to get set up, and I have never, ever, ever had issues where I felt like I was "fighting with my computer". In fact, I would go so far as to say that, contrary to your not all-that-humble opinion, using Windows is quite enjoyable. See? This is why choice is good. I'll go back to using the OS I like, and you can go back to using the OS you like, and we'll both be equally happy with our situation.

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[jollyreaper]

Well, it already does that, so you'd better tell the Linux teams to stop working on their stuff. The need for Linux is obvious: choice. Even if I prefer Windows, I appreciate having the choice to move to Linux available if I should choose to use it. Hell, even though I think Mac OS is a heaping pile of suck, I appreciate having it out there: more options. Other people like it, good for them, it doesn't bug me, I just choose not to use it. I agree that choices are good to have, even if the dominant monoculture is benign and harmless. My point being, Microsoft is neither of those things which is why the need for open source alternatives is so plainly clear. There are many cases out there in the business world where a single company has an effective monopoly on a given product or service but there's not a lot of complaint when the monopolist does not abuse that position.

IEEE-1394 (FireWire) is available

[Jimithing DMB]

Hmm, that's weird. My parent's box they got like 3 years ago has a firewire port (actually 2 like most devices). I've connected my (Apple) laptop to it and used the tools included with Apple's FireWire SDK to successfully capture video from it and even control it.

The online manuals (PDF) for the newer Motorola boxes seem to indicate that IEEE-1394 is considered a standard connection that you would make to a TV. In fact, they more or less seem to recommend it because not only does it include audio and video like HDMI but it obviates the need to do any setup of the box (e.g. video resolution, etc.) because the Firewire feed is an MPEG-2 transport stream.

That is, your TV then does all of the MPEG-2 decompression. I didn't try it with pay TV channels (my parents have none) but it worked fine with everything else. For reference, I tried a clear QAM tuner and even after flipping through all the available channels I was not able to find standard stuff like the HD feed for the local NBC affiliate (though I did find it for the local CBS affiliate). So apparently, the box must be decrypting the MPEG-2 TS and then sending it unencrypted to the TV.

This whole CableCARD thing is a sham. Firewire works. So what if you can't use a different box? You can get the firewire feed straight out of the cable-company provided box, connect it to another box and then connect your TV to that box. All of your navigation can be done from your box, the cable-company provided box just decrypts the channels for you.

What the FCC should have done, if anything, is mandate that cable companies provide a dumb box that supports FireWire. The box makers already have the technology for this, they would simply strip off the control panels and all the video/audio outputs and leave only the core functionality that supports receiving from cable, decrypting the signal if authorized, and outputting to firewire. To support VOD and other "two way" services they might simply leave in the application libraries (e.g. Motorola with their DCT and now OSAP libraries) and provide the VOD system through FireWire as if it were just another channel.

For instance, normal channel tuning could be accomplished by your own box simply telling the semi-dumb box to give it channel 10. When you want to access VOD your own box knows that channel 499 (or whatever) has the dumb-box provided VOD interface. All of the OSAP or DCT or whatever code runs on the cable-company provided box. All the decryption is done in the cable-company provided box. And you know what, if you DO want to use the cable-company's provided guide, why not make that a channel like 1 or something?

Better yet, Firewire can easily support multiple streams (0 through 63 from what I understand). It would not be hard to say lock 0 to the first tuner, 1 to a second tuner (if the dumb box is dual-tuner) and 3 to special stuff like the built-in program guide which would, when you select something from it, tell your computer to jump over to either 0 or 1. For VOD you probably need an underlying tuner to support it anyway so it may as well just be a special channel on one of the tuners streams.

All of this is really relatively simple to implement because it's all nearly already working technology. You don't have to define APIs that TVs or set top boxes must support (e.g. OSAP) to support VOD features because you leave running of those special applications to the dumb box. You don't have to deal with encryption because you simply send the stream out unencrypted.

If you really really really need to have encryption between the CPE (customer provided equipment) and the cable-company provided dumb box you simply use something like CableCARD in the TV. But instead of trying to make it some highly complex two-way protocol you make it a highly simple decryption protocol only. This decryption card would not know how to resolve QAM channels to logical channel numbers (that's done by the cable-company provided box), it would not know how to run cabl

Re:IEEE-1394 (FireWire) is available

[demon]

This whole CableCARD thing is a sham. Firewire works. So what if you can't use a different box? You can get the firewire feed straight out of the cable-company provided box, connect it to another box and then connect your TV to that box. All of your navigation can be done from your box, the cable-company provided box just decrypts the channels for you.

Except that unless you have a D-VHS deck (maybe not even then?) you can't actually capture anything other than (maybe) your HD locals; most everything else digital is subject to 5C encryption, which prevents its capture on PCs (and probably some other devices as well). I have CableCARDs in my TiVo Series3, and I can get (other than PPV and on-demand content, which I don't care about anyway) everything that any other digital cable customer can get (and there's no on-demand through the local cableco... boo hoo). I don't care about their PPV - if I want that, I can use Unbox on TiVo or XBox Live on my 360. So no, IEEE1394 is not "good enough" - also, there's the fact that many MSOs still ignore the IEEE1394 mandate. If yours doesn't, count yourself lucky.

Re:IEEE-1394 (FireWire) is available

[Jimithing DMB]

I specifically mentioned in the comment that it was working with Apple's FireWire SDK. That includes a program called VirtualDVHS. Presumably it doesn't handle encrypted streams so I _assume_ that they must not be encrypted on the FireWire even though I am reasonably sure that they are encrypted on the coax, even for the HD locals.

For reference, the provider here is Cox Hampton Roads. Other than their high prices ($45 for basic cable??) I have no problems with them. I personally only subscribe to their high speed internet service and they do a great job. They don't have any bundling requirements so I pay the same for it as anyone else. Of course, you get a discount if you pick up any 2 services and more if you go for the triple-play. My parents have the cable/internet/phone and their phone service is stellar.

Right now, I'm happy with OTA HD using a WinTV HVR-950 in connection with EyeTV on a Mac. HD looks absolutely gorgeous on a 23" cinema display. Seeing as how I get this for free I see no need to part with over $40/mo for cable TV. Only thing I miss is Fox News and now USA since the new L&O: CI are only on USA. Oh well. Still not worth $40/mo to me.

If I wasn't a cheap ass bastard I'd probably get my own HD box and just plug it into the Mac to watch in HD. But that's like another $10 or $15 box rental on top of the access fee and I just don't watch that much TV. Granted, I'm probably not in their target demographic. I'm single and work from home so I have other things to do than become a couch potato.

Re:Wake me up when bi-directional CableCards are h

[demon]

Did you even read the article? Every, yes, *EVERY* CableCARD ever made is capable of two-way communication - because the card has basically nothing to do with the return channel, that's a function of the tuner device - i.e., the CableCARD host. However, CHILA - the CableCARD Host Licensing Agreement - won't allow two-way functionality to be built into a receiver device unless it implements OCAP for *everything*. It can't run the box vendor's slicker-than-snot interface - it has to run a generic OCAP stack, and run the software the cable company pushes to it. Most of the potential box vendors hate OCAP deeply - mostly because it takes away any level of product differentiation that could be had in software, unless the vendor makes a deal with EVERY cable MSO to carry their OCAP software, and offer it to their customers (most likely for *yet another* monthly fee) - oh yeah, and did I mention that OCAP is Java? And as we all know, the best thing about Java is how fast it isn't. Whee!

And the irony is that the cable MSOs, through NCTA and CableLabs, speced out CableCARD - and yet they loathe it with every fiber of their beings. Gotta love it...

Re:FCC is useless, Congress is useless, see a pate

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, that last option keeps looking better and better as time goes by.

Re:Suuuuure

[Anonymous Coward]

This is actually a good idea. Seriously. You know why getting your Chevy 350 worked on or rebuilt is so cheap? Because there are millions of them out there - they are almost throw-aways.

No, I'm not saying just one engine for everything, that's ridiculous, but picking the best of breed for each level of power or economy needed (say even a dozen different engines for cars only) and you should see a reduction in maintenance costs, because you're talking a dozen engines versus what - scores at least, over a hundred most likely.

FCC Ineffective?

[shoptroll]

The FCC again is proven ineffective? NO WAY!

I've only seen a CableCard box once in the last two years that I've been aware of their existence. And that was with a relatively small Cable outfit that my mom was using for her cable service. I think it was CableVision? I have yet to see Comcast or Charter adopt this.

Re:but oddly enough, shows work fine from bittorre

[Anonymous Coward]

Not trying to be insulting here...maybe it's that you don't know any better. If you only know how Windows works, then you don't realize how annoying it is. Kind of like victims of domestic abuse - they think everyone takes a beating, and don't realize it's abnormal and criminal, and they should not put up with it.

On Windows, you plug in a mouse on your laptop...wait...balloon pops up saying "You just plugged something in"...wait..."What you just plugged in is a mouse"...wait..."Your mouse works now". On other OSes, you plug your mouse in, wait 5 seconds (or less), wiggle it, and realize it's working. I didn't need to be told I plugged something in (I'm the one who plugged it in, remember?). I don't need to be told it is a mouse (I kind of knew that going in), and my wiggling it and seeing the cursor move tells me it's working.

Or the wireless connection. If you look at the system tray, there's an icon that shows a PC with two curved grey lines, and a red "x" below it. This means the wireless is not connected. I like that. Then when I try to connect, two orange dots flit left and right to tell me it's attempting to connect, and then when it finally connects, the curved grey lines turn green. This is good design, so why ruin it by popping up a huge balloon that says "HEY!! You're connected!!". I have to stop typing in the URL and click the damned balloon off so it doesn't bug me. I already knew I was connected, I don't need a billboard reminder.

There are many other examples, but I hope you get my point. I guess I can sum it up by saying that I always feel Windows treats me like I'm an idiot, and it assumes I'm stupid. Other OSes (I'm speaking of UNIX and UNIX-like OSes for the moment) treat you as an intelligent being. I'm not stupid, and I do resent being treated as though I were.

Just my 0.02...

Because with CableCARD, you don't need the box.

[LazyBoy]

That's sort of the point.

Buy a TV or TiVo that takes CableCARDs.