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10 Great Snake-Oil Gadgets
The Byelorussian Strikes Again writes "Wired offers up 10 of the most awesome snake oil gadgets, from industrial cables sold as $200 ionized pain-relieving bracelets to a plastic chip that cures anything, improves gas mileage and cleans swimming pools.
One truly sad development: the infamous $500 wooden volume knob is no longer on sale."
multi thousand dollar EPFX machines that run off random number generators. Apparently this William Nelson fraud character lives in a multimillion dollar house in budapest because of it.
I've seen a list of audiophile gadgets here:
http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm
"Bergstein said the device offered a false hope that consumed his wife and robbed the family of precious remaining time with her. A retired Microsoft manager, Bergstein looked at the source code in the EPFX's software. It appeared to generate results randomly." quoted from the article
In related news... the Pear cable calls James Randi's million dollar challenge a hoax.
I'll be happy to sell someone a wooden knob for $500.
$7.95/mo, 200 GB disk, 2TBxfer, MySQL, PHP, RoR.
Anything: and I mean, absolutely anything, that is marketed toward the "audiophile" market is a sham. cf: insulted speaker cable standoffs, $8000 dollar speaker cables, $500 power cables, $10,000 speakers.
Warning: Troll Alert!! I'm sure I'll get modded down for this but...
I would think that the latest spate of HiFi speaker wires would be right up there. The key difference between dowsing rods and these cables, is that once in a while dowsing rods seem to work. The multi-hundred dollar cables, time and time again in double-blind tests, have been shown to perform more poorly than the cheap utility speaker wire. And yet, there's a whole industry out there that argues (and markets) to the contrary.
Snake Oil indeed.
The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us. -- Calvin & Hobbes
Clever pun there.
to get just an ounce of genuine oil.
Next year's list will include MS Vista operating software !
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
The number of comments supporting dowsing rods based on anecdotal evidence on the article page makes me realize that we have a lot of work to do before anything like an educated majority will happen.
Admit that why you're mad is that you didn't think of it first!
Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
A product is worth exactly what it's purchaser will pay for it.
I won't buy it unless it also cures AIDS and brings my hair back.
The world belongs to those who get up early. - I'm far from being the king of Earth then
Mac OSX
If a baby duck is a "duckling," why would anyone want to eat "dumplings?"
I love this one, every now and then it appears on TV between the various Road and Track, Trucks! and Horsepower.TV programs on Saturdays.. http://www.tornado-fuelsaver.tv/default.asp
It's basically a piece of plastic that you put behind your air filter. It claims to 'twist the air going into your engine...' when in reality all it does is reduce your cash flow.
Dowsing I think is in sore need of a proper, large study
"there's no engineer out there dedicating his life to polishing wooden volume knobs."
;)
Well as far as I'm concerned, anyone that spends that amount of money on a volume knob IS a dedicated knob polisher.
The Giz has recently been on a tear about high-priced audio stuff. I wonder if as much ignorance will be displayed here as over there?
I don't think its the rods that do the actual finding of water. Its the people who use them.
-almon return to their place of hatching.
-people have a biological magnetic compass built into their nose (look it up, I am not going to do it for you).
-I automatically sneeze when the first warm sun hits my nose due to genetics(look it up, I am not going to do it for you).
-take 2 straighted coat hangers that are bent into an "L" and go look for metal. It works.
Why is it not plausible that people can sense the presence of a large body of water that is close (even buried)? I am sure that there are a lot of frauds out there, but, don't be so quick to call it quakery or stupid. There is real ancedotal evidence supporting it.
cc
I am definitely a hard core cynic.. and always believed dowsing to be a pile of crap.. until I tried it one day.
.. try to separate them without tightening your grip.. definitely freaky.
Seriously.. take two coat hangers.. straighten them out, make a bend at one and and hold them lightly in parallel whilst crossing a known water pipe/stream/whatever.
I dunno what makes them cross... I`ve heard it has something to do with our bodies reacting when near water... but whatever it is.. it's freaky as hell.
And for those thinking "it's you subconsciously moving the rods yourself"
He believes this with all his heart.
So one day I had him do it over a stretch of ground we both knew to have some old pipes buried under it. And then I had him repeat it, blindfolded. He couldn't hit the same spot twice. Not even close. (The pipes were indeed buried roughly where he said they were when his eyes were open.)
I tried to explain to him that he was simply remembering where he had buried the pipes, and that it was his subconscious mind that was causing the wires to cross, but he really didn't want to hear that. He'd rather believe in dowsing.
John
When we had our main water line in Herefordshire replaced, Welsh Water had a great deal of trouble finding the original pipe valve in order to shut it off. Our house is an Edwardian Rectory about 500 metres off the road so after consulting the old maps of the area proceeded to dig a series of pits across our front field. This went on for a couple of weeks resulting in a fairly good recreation of a WWI battlefield.
It was pretty odd, we knew where the pipe entered the house and where the junction was to the mains, but the earlier Brits had a special way of routing things. Anyhow, believe it or not Welsh Water employ a dowser who looked like someone from the mesolithic; low and behold he found the pipe after a couple of days.
Pot luck? Maybe. Or perhaps Welsh Water have a strong desire to instill mystical beliefs in their customers. Either way that episode certainly changed my views on it.
I think there's some kind of error with Slashdot, the article link is not working for me.
It's just taking me to the Skymall catalog.
How are wooden knobs any sillier than that geeky waste: the modded PC case.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
There's just no reason to pay this much for wood, even for committed audiophiles. Look at it this way: unlike speakers, signal processors or even cables, there's no engineer out there dedicating his life to polishing wooden volume knobs.
Monstar L
This is after all about snake-oil, not overpriced rubish. The other 9 don't do what they claim to do, the article doesn't mention that the knobs claim to do anything except that they are made of wood and can be used as a volume knob. I see no reason why they cannot be used as such.
Might as well put diamonds there as well then, overpriced when cut glass can be made to sparkle just as pretty.
Unless these knobs make some idiotic claim, they are just overpriced toys.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Harold Hill: "Have you ever had experience with.... perpetual motion?"
Kid: "Nearly got it once!"
...just to cover how torqued people get about audio stuff. I figure there's blame to go all around. The rules of the James Randi Educational Foundation make it possible for them to dodge any challenge that looks like someone might rise to. Pear chickened out when they could have proven themselves by just doing a proper test and publishing the results (but that would have been awfully risky, eh?). Randi sure didn't help with the negotiations over the challenge; it is reasonable to say he pretty much torpedoed the whole Fremer deal and that his reasoning was gosh-darn opaque on the matter.
We need a new website just for high-priced audio issues. One one side, we can have know-it-all techno-geeks, the spritual descendants of those past scientific luminaries who proclaimed mono recording to be perfect because an audience couldn't tell the difference between Caruso and a recording of him, who proclaimed all solid state electronics to be perfect because the THD numbers were good, and who proclaimed CDs as perfect because of all that neat-o Nyhquist mathmatical stuff that they really don't understand but, hey, it's science and science can never be wrong, right?
On the other side, we'll have the graybeards and golden ears who can hear the vocals bouncing off the recording booth walls but only on certain pressings of certain LPs, who pay the price of a small house for their tube amps, and for whom the notion of paying USD$10,000 for a pair of speaker cables is perfectly reasonable because, hey, when it comes to audio playback, everything matters, right?
Toss into a posting forum, add a dash of weird, expensive new product, and shake. The resultant sniping, boasting, and prideful displays of ignorance and hubris should keep the rest of us amused for weeks at a time.
Hey, where's Alex Chiu and his EternaRings. Certainly that deserves a place on the list.
The Randi challenge is open to everyone, you know, so it's hard to argue with a straight face (and an undamaged brain) that somehow the real dowsers just mysteriously slipped through the cracks, and all the thousands of studies picked just the wrong ones.
It's open to everyone. If anyone thinks he's a real dowser (or a real telepath, or anything else "paranormal"), he can register, prove it and walk with a cool million dollars for their efforts. That's more than they make out of finding water for some farmer too, so it should be incentive enough to register if they actually have the gift. Heck, a million dollars isn't bad at all a deal for a couple of day's work even for someone who's in the business of dowsing for oil or minerals. Plus they'd get the free publicity of it all. People went through a lot more effort for a lot less gain.
To my mind that's as close as testing literally everyone as it gets. If at least one person on the whole Earth had such powers, they're not just free to get it tested, but actually invited and promised a nice reward.
And the first test there is: do they even genuinely believe they have those powers, or do they know that they're running a scam? If they don't even try to register there, you can already know in which category to file them. The _vast_ majority of dowsers, magicians, clairvoyants, mind-readers, etc, fall in that category by their own hand.
But of course that still won't stop gullible people from believing in fairy tales, just because they feel a need to believe in fairy tales.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
What happened to that asian guy selling those two big screw-looking rings that promoted health, or whatever? Was really big about 10 years ago.
And always have. Good check out early newspaper ads from the early 1900's and late 1800's. All full of crap, yet someone bought enough of them that the ads continue to this day in the back pages of the paper and magazines. They were the forerunner of the $5.00 Breitling watch and big dick spam.
They are some kind of weird consumer guilty pleasure. Sort of like reading the National Enquirer while in the checkout line.
What was so special about this volume knob? Did it go to eleven?
That one person may be willing to pay a million bucks for something is less indicative of worth than the fact that a million people wouldn't pay a penny.
C'mon... the cell phone range extender / RF filter is by far better than any on this compiled for Digg top ten post. The only thing better historically was the solar powered clothes dryer... wherin the buyer received twenty feet of clothesline and some clothes pins.
Where's it's suckered more people in... though, the CBC did a show about it. They covered the US FTC complaint, and how the Q-Ray Canada guys are trying to avoid the same here. (Marketplace is an interesting show... caught onto it from that "Geek expose" thing they did a few weeks ago posted on /.).
They forgot to mention those stickers that you can put on your cell phone battery that will magically boost your reception. While they aren't as expensive as a Q-ray bracelet, I'm sure they make up for it in volume.
"Oh dear, she's stuck in an infinite loop and he's an idiot" -Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama)
While "Screen Mist" doesn't stop skin wrinkling, neither does sun screen. Wrinkling is caused by UV-A. Sun screen blocks UV-B (which causes sun burn) but does little to block UV-A. Since it gives you the feeling your are being protected from the sun, wearers become over exposed to UV-A and wrinkling is accellerated.
Wired has bought into its own sun screen snake oil claim.
Really! Snake Oil Salesmen Were on to Something
I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing. -- Thomas Jefferson
James Randi has a significant personal investment in not being proven wrong above and beyond the supposed million dollars. If you'll read some of the accounts of how he runs his little 'challenge', you will quickly see that he wouldn't allow somebody to prove him wrong even if Jesus showed up walking on water.
The thing to remember is that Randi is a stage performer. --If you've ever met anybody in that line of work, you'll know that ego and self importance come first in all calculations. Randi is no different, and anybody of any wisdom who has any actual abilities beyond the norm will recognize his kangaroo court from a mile off. Randi doesn't want to know, and so he won't, and in fact forcing the issue with him would be a violation of his free will choice of not wanting to know, which means those most able to do so would never dream of doing it. His challenge is nothing more than an elaborate personal denial.
This is not to say, of course, that there aren't shysters and frauds aplenty out there. But just because, as one philosopher put it, all cows are animals, it does not mean that all animals are cows.
-FL
Mogila (1986) reported a field study at the Monastery of the Caves, Kiev, where conventional sub-surface radar had failed to locate secret passageways. Of 130 sites indicated by dowsers, 73 (56%) corresponded with existing passages, previously known to the curators but not to the dowsers. At a further 29 dowsed sites (22%), previously unknown to the curators, test drillings revealed cavities. This gave a total success rate of 78%.
Mogila, I. 1986. Dowsing in the Soviet Union. Soviet dowsers reveal long sought for legendary and hidden underground passageways at Russia's famous Monastery of the Caves near Kiev. Psi Research, 5 (1 2) March/June 1986, 34 38 Another site discusses a study done at Lund University in Sweden which showed some statistical significance in dowsing.so not ALL studies have been found against the technique, but it is definitely not proven for sure.
Especially the Ionic Breeze which is not a HEPA air purifier, and produces Ozone which can actually be DANGEROUS to people with asthma.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
How can this list leave out Head-On (a product we can only assume to be a homeopathic cure for headaches).
Nice list in that link but I was surprised not to see Monster Cable.
Bringing free market theories into it is good and fine, but only if you also realize the context in which they apply. The free market is a bit more complex of abstraction. There are a heck of a ton of assumptions there, such as that the products are interchangeable, there are many suppliers, etc. And most importantly in this context: the buyers are perfectly informed.
That last part is crucial here: a product is worth exactly what you paid, only if you knew _exactly_ what you're buying. I.e., that doesn't apply to scams and cons.
If you think you bought Product A, but instead you got Product B, then that whole "is worth exactly what the purchaser paid" assumption falls flat on its face. Your judgment of whether or not it was worth it was based on Product A, not on product B.
E.g., if I offer to sell you, say, Porsche Carrera, how much is that worth to you? Even second hand it's still worth tens of thousands. Now imagine that you pay that money and I give you a toy car. That's just not the product you thought you were buying. Saying that it's worth exactly as much as you paid for it, would just be stupid.
Now that's a case where the fraud is easy to spot. This kind of snake oil is the same kind of fraud, only it's a lot harder to spot for the uninitiated.
E.g., if you had cancer and I promised you a medicine that can cure you, how much is that worth to you? Quite a lot, I'd bet. People have been known to blow their life's savings on such a miracle medicine or cancer-curing gizmo, in that situation. But that was worth the price only assuming that it is what I assured you it is. If instead I give you coloured water or a box that displays random numbers, then it's just not the product for which that price was judged.
It's the same fraud as in the car example: you were promised Product A and were given ample assurance that it is indeed Product A. That's what you judged that price for. But instead you were given Product B, which isn't even remotely the same thing. That's what makes it a fraud.
Now if those things were sold honestly as snake oil (think, "this bracelet won't do jack shit for your health, but we think that industrial cable looks cool and we're charging 500$ for it anyway"), _then_ that "it's worth what the purchaser paid" idea would apply. Sure, then the buyer knew exactly what he's getting, judget it worth every cent. Fair enough. If someone knew they're buying just a piece of steel cable, and was ok with paying that price for it, I can't argue with that.
But as long as the buyer was deliberately mis-led into thinking they bought something completely different, sorry, no. Just no.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
No, no. You got it wrong.
With snake oil, there's some charlatan who sells the product as a "cure-all miracle" backed by some dubious crackpot pseudo-science research, and at least achieves to magically teleport money out of the victims pocket.
Meanwhile, with Vista, Microsoft is still struggling on the the "Sell" part.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
This is not entirely unexpected. Without going over the numbers, there's something important to remember that people often forget when doing their statistical tests: If your tests say that the results are significant with a p-value of 0.05, you're still likely to flag uninteresting results as interesting about 1 in 20 times. A lot of tests showing nothing with a few anomalies is pretty much what I'd expect from something that isn't really different from random chance.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Thanks for providing the full background, I thought they were just expensive blingbling. Not one of those "add X to your sound installation for improved sound quality by (insert mumbojumbo)".
Amazing. I should get some for my iPod. Are they touchsensitive?
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I wandered in to Radio Shack the other day for a TOSLINK cable. Young "not quite a geek" spys me and approaches. "How may I help you?" he says. "I need a few TOSLINK cables" says I.. and reach for the Radio Shack house brand.. "OH" he interrupts; "You don't want those; you want these" and reaches for a brand name that will remain nameless. I see a 59.00 dollar price tag on a 3 meter cable and look at the fellow. "So; what's the difference" I ask (Knowing he has not clue) "Well"; said the young not quite a geek; "these have better insulation". "Oh?" I counter; "Insulation from what; sunspots?" "No" he replies; "for all of the electronic gear around your house. The better insulation blocks hum and pops". Sad thing was the young lad had no idea why his argument was pointless. I remember the day when I could walk into a Radio Shank and hob-nod with my fellow wizards.. Now; I could probably go to 7-11 and get better advice. Rant mode off ..
... I'll have a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster with a side of Plutonium Nyborg
Wrong: The brick is worth exactly the satisfaction of throwing it through the store's window.
Unfortunately, the fraudster lobby has convinced the CA state legislature to enact brick microprinting laws, making all bricks traceable to their original owners.
Didn't that promise the world, and umm....is just a gadget for people with too much money?
I can imagine selling "snake oil supplements" would turn off most customers. Imagine going to your local healthfood store, and along with the regular Vitamin-C, Tea Leaf Extract, etc. you see a bottle labeled "Snake oil". However according to the article omega-3 fatty acids are found in it, so it does have some supplementary benefit.
A few years ago, I received many stock spams for "XLPI.PK", or Xcel Plus, which sells fuel and lubricant additives. Such additives are referred to in the automotive industry as "mouse milk"; they usually don't do much, and may make things worse. That whole category of products is mostly bogus.
Back then, their web site contained endorsements from the FAA and the US Army. The web site reproduced a a letter of endorsement appearing to be from an FAA representative. I thought this was a bit strange, so I sent off a note to the regional FAA office asking if it was legitimate.
A few weeks later, I got a call from an anti-terrorism investigator at NCIS. Someone at the FAA had looked at the letter and the web site. They apparently didn't like what they saw, and referred the matter for investigation of the use of unapproved lubricants in military equipment. That comes under the "sabotaging the war effort" laws, which brings in military investigators.
I'm not sure what happened thereafter, but the spamming stopped and "XLPI.PK" is now trading at $0.001.
in those test if they were properly elevated from the floor.
It's not surprising that most or all of these products deal with alleviating a health problem.
People will go through much trouble trying to find a remedy to cure their ills no matter how dubious the claims of the product are.
Aye, you are correct. With almost anything, given enough studies you'll get successful results in at least a few of them. That brings me to an interesting question. Several people here have posted that they used dowsing to help them find water. Example is the Welsh Water comment. I wonder that regardless of the way dowsing is done, or the fact that it doesn't work all the time, it is still a good secondary technique to try. It introduces a new methodology other than the original technique, which may increase the statistical chance of finding water. Does that ring with you?
True snake oil is completely useless. Monster Cable is good quality, well manufactured cable. For 1/3 to 1/2 of what they charge for it, it would actually be worth using in some situations.
Ok, so somebody is selling wooden knobs for large amounts. What claims are they making? None that was mentioned in the article. If somebody wants to pay top dollar, that is their issue.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
He even linked to Quackbusters.com by way of proving his point. Quackbusters? Doesn't everybody recognize that for the scam it is by now? --Funded by the medical industry as a reaction to losing billions to alternative medicine, Quackbusters is but one lobe of a PR scheme designed to redirect public awareness. This blogger has done some research on how it all works. My favorite part is how it turns out the lead propagandist in Quackbusters is a total flake. .
While the above is opinionated, the facts back up the blogger's conclusions. --There are numerous other allegations against the clowns who run Quackwatch, including plagiarism (trying to pad resumes by pretending to have authored books which somebody else happened to have written), and showing the classic psychopathic response to being publicly caught in enormous lies while at a doctor's convention; that is, a total lack of shame or even recognition of having been publicly humiliated. (This total lack of shame, incidentally, is one of the ways a psychopath is so very good at manipulating people; those in the unfortunate position of having to deal with a psychopath are usually so taken aback by the subjects' lack of shame in being confronted with damning evidence that they actually stop and question their own certainty. Real people stop and think while psychopaths just lie, and lie and do so with total conviction.)
In any case, knee-jerking and making unfounded assumptions regarding alternative knowledge is foolish, but unfortunately, all too common.
-FL
If you do enough studies you'll occasionally find statistical significance for pretty much anything. The vast majority do not, which suggests the real reason for success was bad experiment design or just exceptional luck on the part of the dowsers. A scientific experiment doesn't prove anything unless the result is repeatable.
>>The scientific study of dowsing in Munich, Germany was performed in 1987 to 1988 and involved more than 500 dowsers in more than 10,000 double-blind tests.
Five hundred dowsers were initially tested for their dowsing abilities, and the experimenters selected the best 43 among them. These 43 were then tested in the following way: On the ground floor of a two-story barn, water was pumped through a pipe; before each test, this pipe was moved in a direction perpendicular to the water flow. On the upper floor, each dowser was asked to determine the position of the pipe. Over two years, the 43 dowsers performed 843 such tests. Of the 43 pre-selected and extensively tested candidates, at least 37 of them showed no dowsing ability. The results from the remaining 6 were said to be better than chance, resulting in the experimenters' conclusion that "a real core of dowser-phenomena can be regarded as empirically proven."
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
. . . go quite a non-meterian distance to obtain a device which emits "non-Hertzian frequencies."
Especially if I can pay for it with non-monetary currency.
how about ANYTHING from this company:
... who spends money on a box of rocks?
http://www.machinadynamica.com/
I mean - "Brilliant Pebbles"? I'll say
I'm sad to see that Resonant Light Technology's PERL wasn't included on that list. As a past technician of theirs I know full well that their products are nothing more than an amplified CB signal, and produce a 92% profit.
From their site: "Use of resonant light emission for the control of viruses, bacterium, fungi, yeasts, insects and vermin. Our research involves the development of equipment and the evaluation of the effectiveness of its use, the latter of which we share with the public". The non-contact, non-invasive device, emits an electrostatic charge and an audio frequency specific to what is being targeted."
For the record: No research is, or has been done in the past five years, and the owner believes the pharmaceutical companies are out to get him, so he refuses clinical testing. And the audio emitted isn't even intentional, it's just the sound the tube naturally makes at these frequencies.
I'd like to mention that people need to have some sort of 'media presence' now. He has changed the challenge from being 'anyone can apply' to needing some sort of mainstream media credentials. It is a small change, but important.
I have to set the record straight on this one. 10 years or so ago I was working for a "property services" company where I mainly mowed lawns. One day the sprinkler guy was around and the lot of us were BSing. He pulled out some dowsing rods and claimed that they could find the pipes that connected the sprinkler heads. I called schnanagans. Background: The "rods" were two seperate pieces of coathanger bent into an L. The sprinkler system was off (IE, there was no water flowing in the pipes). I knew jack squat about how sprinkler systems. The experiment: I was instructed to let the hangers rest one on each of my hands and to hold them a foot away from my body (mainly so that they wouldn't hit me). Gravity and friction were the only forces on the rods. I was pointed in a direction and told to walk slowly. The results: The rods just stood there for the first five feet. Then they slowly started to turn. I continued walking until the two rods lined up with eachother. One of the guys pointed to the right along the rods and identified a sprinkler head. Then he pointed to the left along the rods and identified a second. The conclusion was that I was standing directly over a pipe! I did not know about the heads before I started walking. Conclusion: A small tube of standing water burried at two feet or so can be identified with dowsing rods. I have no idea why, but it does work. I have serious doubts that a large body of water deep undergroud can be identified the same way. ~Nick~
... the infamous $500 wooden volume knob is no longer on sale. That's too bad. I was hoping to go green this yearInteresting to see so many people jump the gun on an issue that they know nothing about. Dowsing can actually work! I was a sceptic myself before I tried it but I must admit that I was wrong. By using two copper rods bent 90 degrees it is possible to find water streams, metal pipes, wires etc. :-)
Hold the copper rods losely pointing forward and slightly down (just to get them stable). Approach the item yo want to find in a direction of 90 degrees and walk slowly. When passing the wire or pipe the rods will swing together when you are on top and swing back when passing. Of course this only works if there is not too much junk down there.
I first tried this when practising at the telephone company. We first tried the dowsing and then verified with a more scientific electric tracking equipment (a sender connected to the wires and a receiver used above ground). Since then I have tried it several times just to let people have a laugh. Imagine the jaw dropping when they try it and get a result. I don't know the theory but an electric field of some sort seems as a fair guess
So my conclusion is, be a sceptic, but be humble enough to admit there are things that are not yet properly explained but still can be true.
I agree that people who fall for these are gullible. Education through exposure of fraud will keep many of the smart ones from continuing. What you prescribe is already going to happen to people who don't listen to govnerment warnings. The hardest of the hardcore followers will still drink Kool-aid even with police knocking on their door warning them. Education though can keep smart people away from these things. Many of these gullible but educable people hold important social positions such as police, teachers, etc. etc. They are still valuable to society, and its worth the effort it takes to warn them. Don't worry about the hardest of the hardcore, they've already lost their will in the matter.
The best-reviewed and studied "action at a distance" phenomenon I've found is http://noosphere.princeton.edu/. It is a study being run out of Princeton University that has several hundred quantum random event generators located around the world. They've found statistically interesting variance in their outputs during massive human events, including Katrina and the Indian Ocean Tsunami.
They can solve two problems at once if they make QRay bracelets out of speaker wire. Just think of the ancient audio principles involved!
The QRay ads are so stupid as to be embarassing. And, yes, I too have had to fend off Radio Shack sales droids who try to sell me audio cables that cost 10 times as much as plain old speaker wire. Their pitch to me was partly the Amway pitch ("It's expensive, so it has to be good"), and some gibberish that appeared to suggest that the velocity factor of audio signals was so strongly frequency dependent that only special super duper cables could produce anything worth listening to.
...laura
You've call James Randi a fraud, but offered absolutely no substantiation.
Give an example or a good Google search!
Which, as recall, has not been proven to have any effect on anything. In fact Omega-3 is, IMHO, the new snake oil. It could have all sorts of benefits on everything from the heart and the brain to joints, only nobody's managed to back it up with a shred of evidence. And yet food manufacturers are putting it in everything they can and shouting "OMEGA-3!" from the rooftops.
:) /yah, I think the whole vitamin/suplement industry is a scam
More flim flam and snakeoil. Only now, thanks to your link, I can smile whenever that popsinto my mind because I know how close it is to genuine snake-oil
I wish you the best of luck!
How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
Head On - Apply directly to forehead! Head On - Apply directly to forehead! Head On - Apply directly to forehead!
Surely the most famous example in the US in the last few years. All it was was a stick with some menthol in it; hell, I don't think the commercial even made any claims as to what applying it directly to your forehead was supposed to do (cure headaches perhaps?)
Surprised it wasn't on Wired's list.
Comment of the year
Omega-3 fatty acids (also known as n-3 fatty acids) are polyunsaturated fatty acids that are essential nutrients for health. We need omega-3 fatty acids for numerous normal body functions, such as controlling blood clotting and building cell membranes in the brain, and since our bodies cannot make omega-3 fats, we must get them through food. Omega-3 fatty acids are also associated with many health benefits, including protection against heart disease and possibly stroke.
Wow larsbus2, what a coincidence that your post is so close to the post from fellow dowser ActuaryDude, whose user ID is only 8 away from yours. And what a surprise that this is the only thread each of you have commented on.
This confusion of senses is well documented and well understood. For example, the resturant industry know that they can make their food taste better by changing the color of the walls, lighting levels, music etc.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Good, now that I have your attention...
There are clinical studies, even some reported here on Slashdot, that shows that the presence of an electromagnetic field may have some effect. What exactly that effect is, of course, ranges from "zOMG I'll get Cancerz!!" to "zOMG It'll cure my Cancerz!!!" Working within 2' of at least four devices that spew both ionizing and non-ionizing radiation, this research is vaguely important to me personally. No matter what the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration claims.
Too much of the good research gets lost in the never ending rainbow of multicolored poop (that's right, I said it. POOP!) being touted by the snake oil salesmen buying off IRBs. (I thought the I was for Institutional... y'know, like an Institution. Not "TABS" or some other company with a slick catch phrase. Although I think know I know a perfect company to launch. Anyone want to invest?) And then the information stream is so polluted, you can't possibly compare the good research because someone will inevitably bring up these crap studies to rebut, confuse, and destroy the focus of comparison. The fact that the FDA (and other governing bodies) know about these loopholes but cannot do anything about them is indicative of the state of the healthcare system globally.
It can probably be said, with a fair degree of accuracy (about 50%, which as good as it gets in this environment) that Electromagnetic fields can cause health effects. Good or bad is still debatable. Mostly bad, of course, if you are dependent on an implanted device that can be disrupted by EMFs. (This is why you shouldn't walk through a metal detector or have a hand held metal detector used on you at the airport if you have a pace-maker, defibrillator, etc, unless specifically cleared by your doctor. Even then, if they find out, they might get a little freaked out.)
Why is it that video poker machines in casinos are more stringently regulated than the code in "biofeedback" devices? C'mon now. If a heart monitor's code must meet ISO900x standards, and it doesn't do more than offer biofeedback, why can devices like the PAP-IME get away with being a transformer putting super-high voltage through a metal coil placed next to your skin? Does that mean I can cure my illness with a car battery, some copper tubing, and a transformer? (Which, btw, I've already applied for the patent on. So there.)
If you take the time and read the challenge applications forum you will see that once Randi realizes an applicant has a minimum chance of beating the challenge he starts changing the protocols making them confusing and harder than necessary. If that doesn't work they start acting pissed off and try provoking the applicant into a flame war that result in terminating the application.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
I am very surprised that so many fellow slashdotters seem to believe in dowsing - but i think that's actually a good thing, because they at least try to explain how to do it, thus satisfying the requirement of fallibility of their theory. I'd really love to know how many of them would recant their beliefs when someone would put them to the test.
Well, anyhow: dowsing can be a very profitable art, it seems - Randi's 1,000,000 $ challenge seems to be open to dowsers, as well. So I'd recommend that one of you believers put their money where their mouth is, and take that challenge! But, i guess a lot of people have tried and failed, up to now: The Matter of Dowsing
Not only that, it's louder too -- it goes to eleven.
The ultimate snake-oil.
People contribute their life savings, sacrifice their lives, their children and often murder others in the name of fantastic fictional characters and their self declared human representatives who promise them favors in this life or the next in return.
The gadgets in this article are amateur jobs compared to the scam that is religion.
Ding, ding, ding! I've got a new favorite phrase!
Why doesn't your cell phone get a signal? It's because there is a strong field of non-Hertzian frequencies in the area.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
The Randi challenge is open to everyone, you know, so it's hard to argue with a straight face (and an undamaged brain) that somehow the real dowsers just mysteriously slipped through the cracks, and all the thousands of studies picked just the wrong ones.
Quoting the application:
"12. This offer is not open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a "media presence," which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person's abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified." (my emphasis)
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
If they can sell just one of these, they will make more money than hundreds of ionic bracelets and what-not:
http://www.coldenergy.com/default.htm
"The ACM technology is based on historical differences in atmospheric barometric pressure in different locations. Pipelines are built to both connect selected locations and concentrate the resulting air flow."
Computers obey me.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070830091736/http://www.referenceaudiomods.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=NOB_C37_C
Here are some of the claims made:
[quote]The sound becomes much more open and free flowing with a nice improvement in resolution. Dynamics are better and overall naturalness is improved. Here is a test for all you Silver Rock owners. Try removing the bakelite knobs and listen. You will be shocked by this! The signature knobs will have an even greater effect...really amazing! The point here is the micro vibrations created by the volume pots and knobs find their way into the delicate signal path and cause degradation (Bad vibrations equal bad sound). With the signature knobs micro vibrations from the C37 concept of wood, bronze and the lacquer itself compensate for the volume pots and provide (Good Vibrations) our ear/brain combination like to hear...way better sound!![/quote]
Complete and utter bullshit, of course, but great for separating gullible yuppies from their money.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Do you know what they added that? because everybody* was coming out of the wood work wanting to be tested NOW! most of then were...dowsers.
That said, there are many other similar challenges for less money through other organizations. If you can win there prize, Randi will test you.
* a lot of people with powers that weren't detectable by anyone or anything else was popular.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7461912885649996034
James Randi set up an elaborate and fair (agreed by both parties) test of the most famous dowsers in Australia. This is really worth a look. The results were predictable - no better than chance. Ah, but you see, there was interference from sun spots and "negative vibrations"...
A couple of dozen is enough. These are the most famous dowsers down under. People who make a living solely from this stuff. If polling hundreds or thousands of people out of millions on general issues is enough for statistics, than testing a dozen "top" dowsers is good enough here.
It has been said before but obviously still bears repeating. If someone can consistently beat the odds with dowsing let them step forward. Randi has a $1,000,000 carrot to make these people come out. He has said many times that he wants to see a paranormal phenomenon (such as dowsing). He's not out to disprove those who make the claims, he just provides objective, scientific, double-blind tests. He's not even the one who makes the decision about the results, that is done by a third party that both Randi and the claimant agree to so there's no chance of bias.
Randi will handle all kinds of weird claims without getting mad. Last week he tested a woman that claimed she can cause anyone to urinate against their will "through the power of Jesus". http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/125/1/
Since you need "media exposure" to qualify for Randi's sweepstakes, we come up with a scientific protocol here in ./ and have some geeks take the test. The winner goes for Randi's prize.
I volunteer, just write the protocol and meet me somewhere in DFW.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
I understand your frustration, but with any psuedo-science you can't just yell at people an convinces them. If you let that get under your skin you will go crazy.
..and when they don't point out why the test the suggest isn't a good one. Sometime people agree to a real double blind test, but it's a rare instance. Mostly because they don't understand what needs to be controlled.
A couple of tips:
1) the scientific method is used to rule out bias. It also rules out con men, but not the self deluded. They always have an excuse, from cloud patterns, to cameras.
2) The con man argument, while valid, never seems to work.
3) What does seem to work is reminders about the scientific tests, and asking them if they can think of a good test.
I don't know if you have ever listen to the skeptics guide to the universe before, but in some of there podcasts they talk about the how to talk to people issue. They best thing they do is really look at and talk about data generated from studies.
The worse thing you can do is to yell at these people. Interestingly enough, the 'belief' in the pseudo-scientific has little to do with intelligence. Some very smart people will disregard a good rigorous test if it would means changing their minds.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Global cooling, closely followed by global warming.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
I think it has more to do with people in business, rather than government, benefiting from people who have no critical thinking skills. Look at the history of public education. In frontier days, our schools taught people to be critical thinkers because that's what a frontier demands. With the advent of industrialization, the robber barons knew they needed educated specialists who couldn't put two and two together outside of their area of expertise. Obviously, people who could put two and two together would realize how important they were, and how utterly unimportant the robber barons were. So these early industrialists made massive donations to the public school system, with the caveat that the money would go towards buying their textbooks and teaching their lessons. And thus we have things like the four food groups including dairy separate from other protiens, even though most adults can't properly digest milk.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I can't argue with the science that's refuted homeopathy. I haven't studied it in depth, but what I've seen suggests that's it's been at least moderately thorough.
However, my own experiences with it are such that I cannot deny the possibility that it is effective at least in some cases. My experiences are a long story, and obviously, as anecdotal evidence, not enough to refute the scientific studies, so I don't see any point in going through them here. However, I will say that I have seen people affected by homeopathic solutions who didn't realize that they were taking them, which rules out placebo, and which I didn't know were homeopathic until after the fact, which rules out observer bias.
The photic sneeze reflex has nothing to do with the sun hitting your nose and everything to do with cross-talk from your optic nerve (at least that's the last hypothesis I heard).
As for the nose magnet, yes there is a bit of magnetite in the nasal region, but given how poor people are at finding their way around I doubt it has much of any effect. Furthermore, a quick google and pubmed search failed to demonstrate that a proper study of this has yet been performed. So, I wouldn't hold my breath that this compass is actually functional.
As for dowsing rods, we call the "evidence" for it anecdotal for reason. Every time this ability has been studied it's shown to be false. Consequently, it's proper to assume that those using dowsing rods are frauds until they can give real evidence to the contrary.
http://www.musicdirect.com/product/74266 http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/edge1/edge1_3.html
When I was 2 years old I had ear aches that were excruciatingly painful and would not go away. My parents took me to a general doctor who prescribed putting plastic tubes in my ears to help drain fluid that was causing the painful pressure in my inner ear. My parents went to a Naturopatic doctor who saw I was allergic to dairy and soy, and my parents put me on Rice milk for years. The pain went away, and I didn't have to go through invasive surgery to end the pain. I didn't like rice milk at first, but it was still a hell of a lot better than not having those hellish earaches.
Back when I submitted an application to them. I was a EE student, but apparently too geeky as I never heard back from them. I ended up working at an ice cream parlor, instead, during college.
They only hire salesmen these days, from what I hear, on the theory that they can train those folks on technology more easily than they can train geeks to sell things.
The sad thing? I won all the stupid sales awards at the ice cream parlor without trying. I quickly learned what people liked and recommended it to them, selling more and making the customers happier. I would never try to sell them something I didn't think they wanted. If they already had their minds made up, I wouldn't pester them at all, the crap about "upselling" be damned. My way was far more effective and I think I only ever had one upset customer because I didn't want to do something forbidden and I was too tired to think of an alternate way to serve them before they got upset with me.
So yeah, you can't get any help at RS any more. The last guy got upset about selling me an AC adapter rated for 1A when my old one only went up to 500mA. He didn't believe me when I told him it would only draw the current it actually needed...
Go figure?
I love this reply in the article:
Of course dowsing works. For Heaven's sake. Don't you know that when dowsing the rods actually transform into Jesus' femurs, and Jesus crosses his legs when his bladder is full - the principle behind dowsing. The Vatican calls this 'transubstancelocation'.
Heathens. Boy are you nay-sayers ignorant.
Firepower is still in business. Lots of VC, no product. Something about pills in your tank.
meh
Colour me corrected. OTOH the UK government standards agency has just made a load of food manufacturers take some of the health claims off their packaging because the science isn't backing them up.
Meh, knowing marketers they were probably trying to claim it could give you the power of levitation.
Not only did they join on the same day to comment in the same thread about the same topic, but larsbus2's first post came just 10 minutes after ActuaryDude's first post. This must be destiny!
ActuaryDude:
user ID 1191181
first (and only) post on 2007/11/19 at 12:20pm
larsbus2:
using ID 1191173
first post on 2007/11/19 at 12:30pm
Both have discussed nothing but dowsing. Both have only commented in this thread. Both are probably mere sock puppets for the real account, which was probably also used to spout ridiculous idiocy amount magic and superstition.
to get Amazon's Kindle on the list?
How's this one? A cartoonist selling a machine that can read minds with electrity to detect lies to the infamous J. Edgar Hoover - whether he got a kickback or was just conned is not recorded. Snake oil scams are depressing when they consume government resources for many years.
If you did understand what radiotherapy or chemotherapy do, you'd probably be _more_ inclined to buy a magic amulet.
The only way we know how to "cure" cancer is this: cancerous cells typically have broken or weaker DNA repair mechanisms. So a cancerous cell is more likely to die when you break its DNA.
A healthy cell might repair itself. Or, here's the important part: it might die too, or mutate into a cancerous cell itself.
So radiotherapy basically exposes you to a beam of highly ionizing radiation. It breaks the DNA of a lot healthy cells, and of a lot of cancerous cells too in its path. Chemotherapy does the same with chemicals that break the DNA. (As a comparison, that's how mustard gas works.)
Basically it's the same as exposing yourself to UV-B to fight skin cancer.
Even when it works, you'll destroy a lot of tissue periodically, and might have just traded a cancer now for a new cancer a bit later.
It's not only the snake oil peddlers who noticed that there's something wrong with the cancer cure statistics. (They tend to be not in cases cure, but in how much longer a cancer patient lives nowadays... partially because earlier detection. They also invariably omit the "relapses", which seem to be more like the rule than the exception.) Even real doctors and skeptics like IIRC Dr Ben Goldacre on badscience.net occasionally picked on them.
So, well, I can see how someone would be desperate enough to try even snake oil there. Just because, you know, they pretty much have nothing else to lose. You have this scientific cure which will very probably just kill you a bit later. Or you have the magical snake oil which claims to really cure it. Can you really blame it for giving it a try?
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
No.
Well, okay. If you want to go into business of undercutting snake-oil cable guys, try their catalog:
http://belden.com/03Products/03_CableBasics.cfm
They can supply you with standard speaker cable with extra-thick insulator and nice texture. Gold "plated" connectors can be bought for approximately same cost as connectors without gold "plating" unless you're into real mass production.
Then again, if you're not gouging ridiculous sums for cable, it's not REALLY audiophool grade and you can forget those all-important reviews in magazines..
I can't find the link to this device now, but I'd appreciate if other slashers can find it. I think someone on blogs.sun.com pointed out this ridiculous device. Plug the device into the wall and plug your appliances into it. It's supposed to remove "nuclear generated power." That's right, all of those electrons which were pushed to your house from turbines spun by steam generated from nuclear reactor heat are shunted away and the clean wind and coal generated electrons run your device. Classic!
I can't help but find it amusing that I was presented with an inline advert for the PS3 at the bottom of the article.
Bertrand Rusell is making a mistake then, isn't he? --Nobody can research teapots cruising around Pluto. But nobody is being stopped from trying out dowsing.
As for proof? I would suggest that there are plenty of people who have studied dowsing and come back with positive results, but there are several problems. One is that dowsing only seems to work for some people. Another is that the mechanics are not understood. Another is that there is a bias against even looking at the problem. There is a tendency for people who study dowsing or any of the other "taboo" subjects to be ostracized for coming back with anything other than a negative finding. And then we slip into the decidedly un-scientific realm of egomaniacs like, James Randi. We get people saying, "There is NO PROOF!" despite the fact that obviously some people have had experiences which they have found convincing enough to tell others about. --Except such findings do not count because there are conditions on proof.
The primary condition being, from what I can tell, is that the TV people, the Arbiters of Reality, declare on the 6 O'clock news that the proof is valid.
Yes. That's the big one. But to make that happen, one must spend a great deal of energy publicizing a finding, arguing to validate that finding, and that's hard enough to do when the finding exists within acceptable boundaries. Really, only the big companies and big university labs can afford to do alter the shape of public perception. But the moment you step outside those boundaries, people start to actively attack you and push back. I mean, it's a grim scenario; when James Randi is a self-appointed arbiter who openly attacks people for even approaching him with their ideas, and people actually use him as some sort of yard stick of respectability. . , well it's a bad scene.
What I'm saying is that people who attack either have a messed up agenda, like Randi, or they don't know what they're talking about. They say, "There is NO PROOF!", when really they don't know one way or the other. --Which is why I always say that people really need to stop swinging fists and actually go explore the available material in order to know what they're talking about. Anybody who does this honestly tends to come back quite shocked by the actual state of reality. But most people simply don't bother looking, choosing instead to resort to poorly fitted arguments like, "The burden of proof is on the one making the claim! I refuse to look!"
And so they don't look. They wait until the TV people and James Randi tell them what to believe next. --And they continue to repeat canned meme arguments like, "The burden of proof is on the one making the claim," and think that they've actually said something meaningful when really their brains are on auto-pilot. When people actually set aside their biases and start thinking for themselves, (and this is profoundly difficult to do and I suspect most never manage it for even a few minutes every few years), then suddenly the world opens up.
Perhaps you can understand why those for whom things like Dowsing have become useful and functional tools in their lives can feel a bit frustrated with others.
-FL
Or didn't the poor soul who modded the parent down bother to look up FIAT currency before reacting?
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
That claim was proudly plastered on the large ad for some pills in a flyer for suppliments etc. These idiots will buy anything.
As long as there are no actual lies, I have to applaud these snake-oil peddlers for doing their moral duty to separate morons from their cash. Non-Hertzian frequencies! HA!
...
A few years ago, I received many stock spams for "XLPI.PK", or Xcel Plus, which sells fuel and lubricant additives. Such additives are referred to in the automotive industry as "mouse milk"; they usually don't do much, and may make things worse. That whole category of products is mostly bogus.
If they actually were any good you'd expect that the oil companies would incorporate them in their products.
Back then, their web site contained endorsements from the FAA and the US Army. The web site reproduced a a letter of endorsement appearing to be from an FAA representative. I thought this was a bit strange, so I sent off a note to the regional FAA office asking if it was legitimate.
It would be very strange unless they were advertising their products for aircraft engines. There tends to be a lot more red tape involved with getting anything approved in aviation than with any other kind of vehicle. Given that an engine failure in an aircaft tends to be a lot more serious than one in a car, truck, bus, boat, etc.
Right, so because you can't present a shred of evidence for what you're talking about, and neither can anyone else - just let me get this straight - I'm biased and closed minded?
Classic wooly thinking nonsense.
I don't _have_ to have tried something out if I see honest research that discredit's it. Just like I don't _have_ to have eaten a particular type of cake to be retty sure it tastes good, given the ingredients.
The ingredients of Dowsing are a cup of myth, a cup of self delusion and a pinch of charlatanry for flavour. I know that's a recipe for snakeoil.
And yes, I've held dowsing rods, they wiggle all over the place for little to no reason, amplifying tiny movements in the users's hands. This has been born out by the scientific research into the area.
Npow, get off your "I'm open minded and try things before dismissing them" high horse, it's bullshit, as is everything else the "spiritual" types are so fervent about but can't reproduce undr observation or present evidence for.
Go on, show me a counterexample. I know you can't.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
What if the invisible pink unicorn is trying to get the water because she's thirsty? She (BBHHH) might nudge the rods with her holy horn. Or fart. Electrical fields shmelectrical fields.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
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The first person I saw dowsing was my psychic. He was able to reliably find water all the time, but I figured it was mostly due to his psychic powers, so I wrote it off. Then I found that my phrenologist was able to do the same, but I figured it had something to do with his skill with head calipers. But, finally I decided to try it on my own after I saw my astrologer finding water with dowsing. I mean, it was during the day, so it wasn't like she had any edge, right? Sure enough, my experience was a tremendous success. I hit a geyser! It turned out to be a sewage line and before I knew it, I was knee deep!
Give an example or a good Google search!
Nah. I already did my research a long time ago while trying to ascertain whether or not Randi was a useful resource in determining the validity of super-natural claims. Nobody helped me and I ended up having a lot of fun doing the reading and the comparing of notes. You do it yourself. Don't let the whole, "Burden of truth" meme stop you from educating yourself. Your level of awareness isn't my problem, and you win nothing by protecting the fortification of your own ignorance.
Think of it this way. . .
If you walk away ignorant, you certainly don't win, and I certainly don't lose.
The "Burden of proof" meme is, I strongly suspect, designed to keep people from seeking knowledge. Most trite sayings are quite negative in this manner. "Turn the other cheek" (Stupid!) "Forgive and Forget" (Why? If we don't map behavior patterns, then how can we be expected to anticipate threats from psychopathic aggressors?) Our culture is littered with these little social programs which nobody ever seems to question and which hold massive sway over human behavior.
-FL
Your comment smells of smugness. The pain went away after a week or two. I was kept off dairy for years.
Right off I figured this column would be about $500 hammers and $2500 toilet seats the US military buys
What gives?
The stuff wired writes up didn't scam Americans for a trillion dollars, so it doesn't even make the top 1,000,000 list
wake up and hold your nose