Alabama Schools to be First in US to Get XO Laptop

CountryGeek passed us a link to a story in the Birmingham News, saying that schools in the Alabama city will be the first US students to make use of the XO laptop. The piece touches on a bit of the project's history, and seems to indicate the Birmingham school district is ready to make a serious commitment to these devices. "Langford has asked the City Council to approve $7 million for the laptops and a scholarship program that would give Birmingham students with a C average or above a scholarship to college or tech school of their choice. The City Council has not yet approved the funding. The rugged, waterproof computers will be distributed to students on April 15, Langford said, and children will be allowed to take them home. If a computer is lost, the school system can disable it, rendering it useless, Langford said. Students will turn in their computers at the end of their eighth-grade year."

Comments

Alabama?

[Corporate Troll]

Alabama you say? That's entirely natural. After all they were supposed to be for the third world... ;-)

Re:Alabama?

[dryueh]

Give them a break! After all..

Langford said the computers are more than sufficient for Birmingham students' needs. "We're not trying to give these kids a computer that would launch a space shuttle."

One-space-shuttle-per-child: a project for the next generation.

Re:Alabama?

[Seakip18]

Puh lease. Alabama is hands and arms above, oh say, it's next door neighbor, Mississippi and Florida. There is a *reason* Fark has the Florida Tag.

Seriously though, you wanna see some of the worst parts of the country, go to the Delta areas of MS and some counties in AL. Poverty, STDs, teen pregnancy, HS graduation/college acceptance rates, life expectancies are among the worst in the nation. Do you think it's right to just ignore these areas for any sort of advancement?

The former Gov. of Mississippi, William Winter, put it best when endorsing the need for higher education in MS- "We can either compete with the other 49 states for jobs or we can do nothing and compete with China and Mexico."

Re:Alabama?

[JavaLord]

go to the Delta areas of MS and some counties in AL. Poverty, STDs, teen pregnancy, HS graduation/college acceptance rates, life expectancies are among the worst in the nation. Do you think it's right to just ignore these areas for any sort of advancement?

I'd bet you can find similar rates in Newark, NJ which isn't far from me and is very urban.

Although people like to generalize about the southern states having substandard schooling, I'm sure there are communities in every state that could use some help.

Re:Alabama?

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in the Delta and this guy is right. The schools around here have a 15% percent literacy rate and poverty rates among children are well over 50%.

The real question is will XO laptops help turn that around?

Re:Alabama?

[seven of five]

"We can either compete with the other 49 states for jobs or we can do nothing and compete with China and Mexico."

errr... the other 49 states are competing for jobs with China and Mexico....

Re:Alabama?

[lib3rtarian]

Well, you bet wrong. Newark is doing much better these days that it has historically, although it is still the car theft capital of the world. However, it is not rural, it is extremely diverse, and is a short train ride to NYC. It is also home to one of the finest institutions in the world (Rutgers).

Re:Alabama?

[j_sp_r]

These laptops are more then capable to launch a space-shuttle (after all, they use computer from the 80's)

Re:Alabama?

[cluckshot]

Cut the troll crap! Alabama is not a third world country though I must admit that Birmingham City is not Alabama's finest and brightest.

I live in Alabama. Nobody ever went to the moon without going to my home town first! We are the people who invented the "Green Revolution" that feeds the world. We are the ones who gave the world many amazing medical advances and we are the ones who have some of the finest and brightest the world has. Alabama is a fine state and isn't even the 49th out of 50 economically either. We are doing much better than most of the USA. Yes we have paved roads, good schools and we have running water too. Actually it may surprise the bigoted idiots out there but Alabama is actually one of the most accepting and welcoming societies on earth so we are not even the racists some people think we are. We are one of the centers of computer technology and manufacturing for the world. We are one of the technical leaders in energy, genetics and much more.

To be blunt Alabama is a very nice place with a lot of very bright people and a lot of very nice people. As long as you are somewhat civilized the people of Alabama welcome you and treat you well. Every race finds that this is so. The state has one of the strongest and faster growing economies of the USA. It has a lot to recommend it. I think we should be proud that XO laptops begin to spread in Alabama. Learning is for every kid.

Re:Alabama?

[Corporate Troll]

Chill dude, it was a joke... You know, the things you laugh with.

Re:Alabama?

[cerberusss]

That's pretty funny you should mention that. I'm in the business of (amongst others) hosted virtual machines and the smallest plan has 64 MB. People sometimes ask me, "What can I do with such a small amount of RAM?". When I basically answer "everything, but you might have to tweak some config files and heavy scripts", they're very surprised.

Re:Alabama?

[The Jonas]

One-space-shuttle-per-child: a project for the next generation.
These ideas aren't too far-fetched if you live in my Alabama hometown, the "Rocket City".

Re:Alabama?

[Anonymous Coward]

> As long as you are somewhat civilized

, heterosexual, and Christian...

> The state has one of the strongest and faster growing economies of the USA.

As indicated by what?

Re:Alabama?

[puto]

Fark has a Florida time, besides the stories out of Florida, because Fark was originated in Florida.

Please be advised that most people here in Florida that rate the Florida tag are first and second gen people from up north who come here for the weather, or finish out a parole sentence in a warm climate. OR with the assumption it is easy to scam people in the south, or that becase we live below the mason dixon, we are not as smart as our northern brethern.

Alabama is a hole but has a few good unis as well.

I can find some very nasty places in Jersey, New York, and PA.

Puto

Re:Alabama?

[dangthill]

From your description, I am assuming you are referring to the city of Huntsville. Spending a while there as a defense contractor, I have to agree with everything you said. However, my experiences with the rest of the state made me feel that Huntsville is entirely different from the rest. As a defense contractor, fully half the people I interacted with on a daily basis (anywhere from on the arsenal to Walmart) weren't actually born in Alabama! The percentage of people with degrees was astounding, and you couldn't sit at an Arby's without overhearing some snippit of conversation literally involving rocket/missile science.

Re:Alabama?

[Nimey]

There are a few areas in Missouri which are that bad. McDonald County in Southwest Missouri comes to mind, and the Boot-heel.

Re:Alabama?

[tfoss]

To be statistically blunt:

• 4th in tooth loss
• 7th in obesity.
• 3rd in gonorrhea rate.
• 6th in infant death rate.
• 45th in Gross State Product
• Last in Library visits per capita
• 3rd to last in % students above "basic" in grade 4 writing
• 1st in Diabetes.
• 5th in lynchings per capita.
• 46th in Bachelor's degree percentage
  
• 9th in Percent below poverty level
• 42nd in Income per capita
• 28th in Economic growth

Etc. etc. I have no doubt there are plenty of smart, healthy, wealthy, open-minded folks there; however the statistics tend to suggest that overall AL (like much of the deep south) has a pretty unhealthy, uneducated and poor population.

-Ted

Re:Alabama?

[chakan2]

"Yes we have paved roads, good schools and we have running water too"
You're bragging about this? Are these things recent developments or something?

Re:Alabama?

[Eric in SF]

I agree with everything you've said but I really have to add that if you're not straight and religious, you're in for a world of hurt. The first question out of many people's mouths when they meet you is "Where do you go to church?" - and I'm not talking about the cashier at Burger King. It can be a little like Japan with a southern twist - if you don't fall into the supermajority of heterosexual, family-centered, devoutly religious, you're shunned.

-Eric, who grew up in suburban Birmingham and went to probably the most liberal college in the state, upon which I promptly escaped.

Re:Alabama?

[LuisAnaya]

I worked in B'ham for a while and 'bama is a very nice place indeed. My gut reaction is that they're looking to stretch the dollar using the XO's. That's a fine goal as anything, as long as they can use it to educate the children. Cheers! Luis

Re:Alabama?

[GooberToo]

So long as you have small working sets and don't need a real database. Otherwise, you're either going to page or constantly be hitting the disks.

Re:Alabama?

[punissuer]

Alabama is actually one of the most accepting and welcoming societies on earth I'm from Alabama too, but before I buy that one, I want to hear your reaction to two words: gay marriage. If you're not up to typing an accepting and welcoming response to them, then you might want to edit this part of your post. And yes, I'm gay, so the attitude of my fellow Alabamians is important to me.

Re:Alabama?

[QRDeNameland]

[Newark] is also home to one of the finest institutions in the world (Rutgers).

While Rutgers has a large campus in Newark, the "home" of Rutgers is New Brunswick. Newark is no more "home" to Rutgers than Camden is, which also has a Rutgers campus; both of which were acquired after WWII. The New Brunswick-Piscataway campus goes back to before the American Revolution.

Re:Alabama?

[rbanffy]

Two meters to my right is a SparcClassic (I collect interesting computers) with 32 megs of RAM. It's not very fast (processor is in the tens of megahertz range, IIRC), but it runs a full Solaris environment with X and OpenLook and is quite capable considering its size and age.

Mind you - it runs a GUI out of those 32 megabytes and there's still space left for the OS.

There was a time when if I said I would carry an asymmetric RISC multi-processor with a multitasking operating system, 64 megabytes of RAM and a couple gigabytes of storage on my pocket and still be able to connect it to other computers around the world during a commute I would get locked up.

Imagine If I told them I would make phone calls with it.

Re:Alabama?

[OMRebel]

What an idiotic generalization. It's very obvious that you've never traveled much at all. Try going to parts of Virginia, Oregon, the Dakota, Arkansas, Washington if you want to see backwoods. If you want to see horrible living and trash, you have plenty of options to chose from: New Jersey, Chicago, Detroit, Seattle, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, and the list goes on and on. I highly suggest you leave your neighborhood sometime and actually experience the rest of the country if you can. That type of life education would certainly do you some good so you don't make statements like you just did showing how little you really know.

Re:Alabama?

[Peter La Casse]

I suspect that cluckshot is from the Huntsville area, which happens to be where most of Alabama's scientists and engineers are, and where they're so used to funny accents that they don't ask you where you're from when you order at a restaurant.

Re:Alabama?

[BigDumbAnimal]

however the statistics tend to suggest that overall AL (like much of the deep south) has a pretty unhealthy, uneducated and poor population. Which means the "War on Poverty" programs have been a huge success

Re:Alabama?

[Alric]

I'm from AL too, the Mobile/Fairhope area. I was born there, lived 20+ years there, and have been back often. And I think you're mostly wrong. For varying lengths of time, I've also lived in NJ, MA, and VA (my current home).

1. The public schools in AL are still extremely segregated (by income and race), and the vast majority have abysmal standards. (Besides attending the schools growing up, I also worked for a company supplying software to schools, and my wife taught at some of the lowest-income schools. I speak from experience in this front.) The public education system is among the worst is the nation.

2. The people in AL are not all racists, and those jokes do get old. However, I knew many, many racists in AL. Is the racism in AL worse than any other mostly rural part of the country? Probably not, but we do have a long history of racism and hate to overcome. So, I personally don't get offended by that stereotype.

3. The people in AL are not among the most open-minded and accepting people. You're just wrong about that. Try being homosexual, politically liberal, or non-Christian in Alabama. Try answering, "Actually, I'm an agnostic/atheist" when somebody asks you which church you attend. You'll quickly see just how hateful and hypocritical many Alabamians are. Is this bigotry worse than any other rural part of the country? Yes, from my experience, it is.

Some of the most loving, accepting, and brilliantly intelligent people I've ever known are from Alabama. And the AL river delta has an unbelievable diversity of wildlife and variety of outdoor activities. From the foothills in the north to the Gulf beaches in the south, Alabama is a beautiful state. However, the people of the state are generally inadequately educated and dogmatically Christian.

So yeah, the stereotype of the barefoot, illiterate Alabamian is just that: an exaggerated archetype. But every culture/region has its stereotype. Guess what, not everybody from NJ is a fu##ing douchebag....just most of them. I keed, I keed. Seriously, don't be so defensive; change the stereotype by being a great person. And when somebody says, "Wow, you're from Alabama? You don't seem like it," respond, "Yeah, Alabama is still playing catch-up, but it has actually come a long way since the '60s."

Re:Alabama?

[thrillseeker]

* 4th in tooth loss * 7th in obesity. * 3rd in gonorrhea rate. ... * Last in Library visits per capita * 3rd to last in % students above "basic" in grade 4 writing * 1st in Diabetes. * 5th in lynchings per capita. * 46th in Bachelor's degree percentage * 9th in Percent below poverty level * 42nd in Income per capita * 28th in Economic growth

Daddy?

Re:Alabama?

[mccabem]

The example I've heard others use is Camden, NJ.

http://www.bestplaces.net/City/Camden_NJ-OVERVIEW-53410000000.aspx

It's a very ironic example due to its close proximity to some of the richest folks in the country and even ivy league colleges.

So no, you don't need to go South to find big groups of poor people (aka high crime, low education) in the USA. Just don't think about that too long or it gets uncomfortable.

Re:Alabama?

[turtledawn]

Everything I've heard is that Fark was founded in Nicholasville, Ky, about twenty miles down the road from me, by a guy now living in Fayette county by the name of Drew Curtis. I'd be interested in seeing your sources.

Re:Alabama?

[Blahgerton]

The state has one of the strongest and faster growing economies of the USA. As indicated by what? The governors of the Rust Belt? Hyundai, Mercedes and Honda all built plants in the state and then expanded; Kia is building 10 miles across the Chattahoochee. Various suppliers also build in the area.

There's some huge airplane manufacturing plant going up north of Mobile, if memory serves. And all the tanks getting refurbished at Anniston Army Depot, not to mention chemical weapon disposal. And Marshall Space Flight Center serves as the intellectual/engineering star of the state.

The mayor of Birmingham is doing his best to have everyone leave Jefferson County though by raising taxes and business license fees chasing his "domed stadium" pipe dream. The city is hemorrhaging people into the surrounding counties.

Re:Alabama?

[deander2]

i spent 4 years in montgomery working as an AF contractor (programmer). and while i can attest that it's not as bad as i had heard (i grew up in NY), it's not as rosy as this guy is making it out to be. i certainly wouldn't want to settle down there.

do still have some good friends back in the gump however. and old cloverdale is definitely the coolest part of the state, with maybe the exception of auburn.

Re:Alabama?

[jagdish]

You will have to excuse my poor geographical knowledge, but isnt Atlanta the capital of Alabama?

Atlanta was a city, landlocked, Hundreds of miles from the area we now call the Atlantic Ocean, Yet so desperate the city's desire for tourism, That they moved offshore becoming an island, And an even bigger Delta hub. Knowing their fate, the quality people ran away: Ted Turner, Hank Aaron, Jeff Foxworthy, the guy who invented Coca-Cola, The Magician, and the other so-called Gods of our legends, Though Gods they were. And also Jane Fonda was there.

Re:Alabama?

[DavidShor]

Low-wage manufacturing jobs, normally reserved for third world countries, are indisputably relocating to the South. But this is only because per capita, the South is the poorest area of the US, and therefore has the cheapest labor.

Not something to brag about.

Re:Alabama?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes yes, we all know the low-wage manufacturing jobs are moving or have moved south, but that's because the robber barons and the Colonel Tollivers, Colonel Lee's and other the other rich white guys who own everything down there set it up their laws to make it very very hard for unions.

It's also very very hard lives down there, take a look at the census data. Outside a few uni towns the South is still decades behind the north socio-economically. Which is why you're exporting all your religious nuts up here, they're leaving your crappy states and bringing their scraggly goatees, socks with sandals and fucking nascar up here.

Re:Alabama?

[CronoCloud]

They were successful. From what my dad tells me, he was born in Kentucky and had relatives there, it used to be worse.

Re:Alabama?

[CronoCloud]

yes, Thanks to the New Deal, Great Society and the TVA. Before those it used to be worse.

Re:Alabama?

[JohnAllison]

The real question is will XO laptops help turn that around?

I think that is the true question of the day. Will laptops increase literacy rates, high school completion rates, etc?

What we are looking for is a way to consistent isolate the population from other factors to determine the efficacy of these machines, among other requirement needed to conduct such a survey. I reluctantly have my doubts about the XO program. As of now, I don't see the link between acquisition of technology and improved literacy, et. al.

I would appreciate someone discussing this further.

Re:Alabama?

[cerberusss]

Well, MySQL is very resource-friendly when configured correctly (assuming you share that under the 'real database' caption, which I admit is generous). And generally the datasets that people use for websites, aren't that big at all. BerkeleyDB files can be put on a ramdisk to force them into memory.

Re:Alabama?

[itlurksbeneath]

Just so everybody in the world doesn't thing Mississippians are a bunch of barefoot yokels, see here.

And according to this, sure, MS is number 48, but Alabama isn't far ahead at 45. Dumb and dumber?

Disclaimer: Mississippi native, resident and long time Mensa member (and no, they don't have a special test for Mississippians).

Re:Alabama?

[PinkyDead]

So what you're saying is that there are worse places than Alabama.

As long as were straight on that; you're not knocking Alabama.

Re:Alabama?

[Javagator]

America has a large underclass due to centuries of slavery, racism, large numbers of emigrants from poor countries, and ineffective government programs with unintended consequences. This problem extends throughout the entire country, not just the South, and the solutions will not be simple, quick, or cheap.

Re:Alabama?

[mr_mischief]

I think one difference the XO can make is in the level of desire some kids will have for becoming literate. Sure, nothing will reach every kid. When kids have the chance to be included in Google, Yahoo, Disney, Nickelodeon, and more because they have the laptop, they'll be less likely, I think, to disdain reading as something just stuck-up rich people do.

It's terribly discouraging growing up sharing 40-year old History books and not being able to do participate in the activities the other kids can. If the kids see that they can get their fun information using this tool, that's not as boring as a textbook. When they see the information is more current, that will help. When they can have interactive instruction outside the classroom, that will help.

I remember some of the most popular games when I was in school were Darwin's Island, Sim Earth, Oregon Trail, and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego. Those types of things kept kids enthralled for hours. They're fun and educational, and they require a computer. I used to live with a woman whose daughter loved to sit at the computer and play with those self-reading books. She'd set it to only pronounce words when she'd click on them, and it helped her reading and spelling.

No, the XO's not a magic bullet. No, there's not a real effective way to isolate a population of real people in a laboratory environment, either. One can compare similar situations in different areas with and without the laptops. One can also compare an area before and after their introduction. Neither is tightly controlled, but when discussing the differences the other environmental factors can be considered. Any social science is not perfectly controlled, but statistically important trends do sometimes be found. The best way to do that is to have as many experimental groups as possible so that independent factors can be found to overlap here and not there.

It's my humble and relatively safe prediction that the laptops will help, but not as much as their proponents hope. My biggest fear about them is that the adults might focus too heavily on the technology and not on how to apply it.

That's always my biggest fear when I hear abut technology in schools. I think the folks at OLPC are actually running an end around on that issue with the XO in many ways though. Much of the right type of software has been worked out in advance and preloaded. They're laptops and they're promoted as individual laptops, so just sticking a few at the back of a room and never using them isn't much of an option. Early trials with the machines shows the kids will self-direct activities with the machines when at home, and that they tend to share their newfound skills with older family members.

Take a look at the 60 Minutes piece with Negroponte to see more about that. School attendance in a village in Cambodia increased by 50% after the introduction of more conventional laptops, because the kids thought so much of being able to use the computers. Now, I'd say in Birmingham, where electricity and running water are common and school attendance is mandatory, it's not going to make as notable a difference. It could still help keep kids interested in learning, though, even if not in traditional school.

Re:Alabama?

[GooberToo]

MySQL is very resource-friendly

But then again, I did say a *real* database. I'd use BDB or just about anything else to not have to use MySQL.

Despite all that, the point was, 64MB is very limited for many problem domains. Yes, 64MB is perfectly fine for small web sites and maybe a mail server, but not much else. Despite my objections, for all I know, that may just cover 50% of all hosting needs. ;)

Re:Alabama?

[jhol13]

Don't you idiots understand?
The money would be much better used by giving the poor food and shelter!
They do not need computers. They need a coke and big mac.

Re:Alabama?

[shiftless]

Why don't you actually try visiting and living in Alabama for a while, then come back here and explain to everyone why statistics can be extremely misleading?

Re:Alabama?

[EugeneK]

How am I supposed to run if I'm in a kayak? I think you meant ROW! ;)

Re:Alabama?

[Frogbert]

Perhaps you should take a look at your Indian reservations.

Re:Alabama?

[loraksus]

True story. A few years old, but completely true and verifiable.

Anniston, AL has a chemical weapons disposal facility - basically, they burn nerve gas and have ~150,000 shells of VX (more VX than any other site in the USA) onsite, as well as ~300k shells of sarin and a bunch of other nasty shit. Something like 2000 tons total.
The edge of the army depot where this stuff is disposed / stored is a whopping 6 miles west from "as downtown as you can be" Anniston. Residential areas are much, much closer.

Residents of Anniston - I shit you not - were happy that they were given gas masks by the government. I stayed there for a few days about 5 years ago and every home I went to had several gas masks, ready to be used. Some people even bought extra masks from the surplus store and other sources.

For those of you new to chemical weapons, VX is a nerve agent, which works (extremely) well through the skin and does not have to be inhaled - a gas mask is completely useless unless you have a full body suit.
Also, it's LD50 (50% of people will die when exposed to this dose) is 10 micrograms, which is an amount so small that it's actually difficult find a good comparison - much, much lighter than a snowflake.

Feel free to rag on NJ, but I'm pretty sure the folks in Alabama have you beat by a fair bit. I know this might be a bit inflammatory - but that's my job as a damn yankee ;)

Re:Alabama?

[slashdot_commentator]

To be fair, the villagers were impressed at what a good light source it was. And I'm sure they're going to be even more interested when they realize its value as a remote communications device. And just think what a $200 USD device is worth out in Cambodia. I'd be whipping my kid to attend.

Re:Alabama?

[strangel]

Seriously now?
How long ago did you live in the Birmingham area, the 1950's?

I live in a suburb of Birmingham (Hueytown for those curious), and I've lived here for most of my life (I'm 25).
I haven't gone to church regularly since my childhood (and know a fair number of people who also don't attend), and nobody really pays attention. In the past, I've worked with and been friends with gay/lesbian/bi-sexual men and women. I haven't seen anywhere NEAR the level of bias you're suggesting. There is a very large focus on religion, and traditional values in general, though.

Re:Alabama?

[Eric in SF]

I'm gay, 10 years older than you, grew up in Trussville, went to Birmingham-Southern and worked at Southern Company Services during college. While there is always a little exaggeration in everything, the opening "What church do you go to?" question was very real. There was not a single admitted social liberal in the ~100 person group I worked in at SCS from '92 to '94 and in fact many of them socialized outside of work at church functions. I was there when Clinton was elected the first time. Leading up to the election these people were acting like the antichrist was coming. Of course I said yes when a friend said he could get me a job in Austin, Texas!

During High School, you knew where every single person went to church and the more private people were always viewed with a little suspicion. 1/4 of my graduating class went to the same megachurch. Everyone pretended to not know each other at the grocery store if they had beer or wine in their cart. Condoms were NOT on sale at the Food Fair - they tried to sell them and the outcry was enough to make them just go away. Until I got to college and started going to bars I honestly could not tell you were to purchase a condom. Finally - my high school was not small - Hewitt-Trussville at the time was 3 grades and ~1400 students. There were 100 more students in my HS graduating class than my college class.

Alabama voted to ban gay marriage by roughly 80% yes 20% no. That says a lot about the state and I've always wondered why these car companies from Europe were willing to set up shop in such a conservative state.

I had one college friend from Hueytown and he was not a church do-gooder - maybe they raise them a little more sane on the west side of town. =)

The last time I was home in 2004 I had two different idiots mutter "skinhead" under their breath at me on the street. All because I wear a buzz cut. I wear jeans and tennis shoes and generic Old Navy clothes - I'm not even remotely close to what a real skinhead looks like.

Interestingly enough, San Francisco is just as intolerant as the stereotypical deep south, just on the other end of the ideological spectrum. Why am I still here? People in San Francisco don't want me dead because of who I love. I can't say that about JQ Random fratboy or redneck in Alabama.

Alabama, a thrid world country?

[4solarisinfo]

I don't recall OLPC allowing any of these things in the US, it was starting strictly in 3rd world countries wasn't it?

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[wizardforce]

it was starting strictly in 3rd world countries wasn't it?

It's Alabama... :P sorry couldn't resist

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[DragonWriter]

I don't recall OLPC allowing any of these things in the US, it was starting strictly in 3rd world countries wasn't it?

Developing countries have been the focus, but the project has never ruled out working with school authorities anywhere in the world. What they ruled out was mass retail sale in developed countries as an early focus.

OTOH, there is a break from the earlier articulations of the principles of the project here, and its not in the fact that its in a developed country, its in the "Students will turn in their computers at the end of their eighth-grade year" part.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[nine-times]

I don't know exactly what the deal is, but I don't see why they wouldn't allow it in Alabama. Scaling production up would allow the laptops to be cheaper. And besides, Alabama is almost like a 3rd world country.

Seriously, though, if the purpose is to build a laptop for children who wouldn't otherwise be able to afford a computer, there are enough poor kids in Alabama (or elsewhere in the US) for whom this project makes sense. Having some kind of access to computing is great for education, and I don't see why kids should be deprived of that simply because they live in the US.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[elrous0]

Once they promised a digital copy of the 10 commandments on every laptop, they were assured a big order from AL.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[Billosaur]

Also, OLPC initiated the "Buy 1, 1 Gets Donated" program in time for the holiday season, so it would be possible for an American school district to shell out $200 a copy for them and thereby send an equivalent number to under-developed countries.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[idiotnot]

m-x replace-string
Alabama
Alabamastan

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[cayenne8]

"According to Neil Young they are. "

"I hope Neil Young will remember, a southern man don't need him around anyhow...."

--Ronnie Van Zant

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[Bill_the_Engineer]

And besides, Alabama is almost like a 3rd world country.

You seemed to have Alabama confused with Mississippi...

Of course it could be worse, you could have confused Alabama with Florida or California.. ;)

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[pwizard2]

And besides, Alabama is almost like a 3rd world country.

Alabama does have poor areas, but so does every state. On the flip side of the coin, There are upscale places in Alabama, just like any other state. (The Mountain Brook suburb outside of Birmingham, for example. Parts of Hoover, Vestavia, and Homewood also stand out)

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[Kadin2048]

Also, OLPC initiated the "Buy 1, 1 Gets Donated" program in time for the holiday season, so it would be possible for an American school district to shell out $200 a copy for them and thereby send an equivalent number to under-developed countries. Yeah, I'm sure that would be a real winner come election time. "Your taxes are going up because last year's school board sent half the budget to Africa by buying overpriced laptops!"

I've lived in some of the bluest of the blue states and even there I can tell you it'd be a non-starter.

It's not a bad idea for retail sales, though.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[redxxx]

Hell, this is why I'm kinda pissed I can't just buy one(rather than having to buy two, which I can't really afford). Purportedly, the more they sell the cheaper they are, so why force people do buy them in pair? Even buying one, assuming you are willing to pay for shipping/handling still, should, help with the overall goal. Even if the school turn around and sell them, they still help out OLPC.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[Rogerborg]

FYI: The Give One Get One cost is $400 per pair, not $200.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[Blahgerton]

You forgot Huntsville, an area with one the highest PhD per capita rates in the country.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[nine-times]

It was a joke. Don't take it so seriously.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[SillyNickName]

OTOH, there is a break from the earlier articulations of the principles of the project here, and its not in the fact that its in a developed country, its in the "Students will turn in their computers at the end of their eighth-grade year" part.

I noticed that too. I read previously that the OLPC folks would require the computers to actually be the property of the children. But then they said that the children aren't going to get the encryption keys required to keep them "activated" (those will likely be kept by the purchasing governmental entity). And now they're talking about making the children hand the computers back in after a while. It really sounds more to me like the children are just borrowing the things. Will they be charged if anything happens to them (broken/lost/stolen)? Are the kids going to need to go out and buy insurance too now?

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[DaGoatSpanka]

It was a joke. Don't take it so seriously.

Yeah, a joke that hasn't been done before. Come up with a joke that's funny and we'll laugh.

Re:Alabama, a thrid world country?

[xhrit]

that is funny, i saw an ad selling them on the tv the other day.

C average

[gEvil (beta)]

I thought a C meant that you were doing exactly the work that's expected of you (aka, Average). So now they're going to award scholarships for performing like you should? Crazy!

Re:C average

[dryueh]

I think the point is to encourage all students to consider post-secondary education, whether that's college or tech school. It's a fine idea -- I imagine that 'C' performers, in many areas, are seldomly encouraged to go on with their education/training after HS graduation.

Re:C average

[snl2587]

Good point. Some kids just need a chance to leave the backgrounds they came from to really develop, and a scholarship like this would do just that. When the best any family member has done is graduate high school, a C+ average might be very good.

The being said, a scholarship like this wouldn't be a appropriate for, say, a private school district in the Hamptons

Re:C average

[gEvil (beta)]

Everyone that graducates should get a scholarship to help with the first year of college.

You know what? I'm actually in favor of that...with the stipulation that they pay it back in full if they drop out before completing their second year of college.

Re:C average

[PrescriptionWarning]

No joke, C average is pretty bottom line in middle and high school. B average should be the cutoff point.

Re:C average

[elrous0]

In a state where science and intellectualism are view with suspicion, sadly, that's not far off. In too many Southern states, redneck preachers with high school educations are much more respected than college professors, scientists, and engineers. And it's a great embarrassment to many of us Southerners who aspire to something better.

Re:C average

[davidsyes]

Somebody wants those kids to get not a C, nor a C+, but a C++, and they want them to be not A#, but C#.

Either that, or someone wants to find future recidivists early...

Re:C average

[tompaulco]

A C is supposed to be what is expected of the average student, but when I was in school, if you got a C, you were thought of as a below average student. I think relatively few people ever actually got Cs. There were a few straight A people (of which I was not one because there was always one teacher a year who would give me a B), then there were probably 70% of the population which got As and Bs, and then there were your 10 or 20% that got D's and Fs, which dragged the average grade down to a C, but very few people actually received a C as an actual grade.
In my high school in Oklahoma (which I am sure most people will also consider third world), they actually instituted a new grading scale to try to move more people into the C range for some unknown reason. Their scale was 94-100 was an A, 85 to 93 was a B, 70 to 85 was a C, 63 to 70 was a D and everything else was an F.
I've often wondered about the traditional grading system anyway. Where is E? Did the school board flunk kindergarten?

Re:C average

[gEvil (beta)]

I come from a school district where we had about 25 kids out ~400 in my graduating class with a 4.0 (non-weighted). I always just thought that if you had that many students passing with a 4.0, that either the teachers were handing out grades too easily, or the curriculum needed to be stepped up with either more advanced topics or wider scope.

It also could mean that the school is already offering plenty of advanced courses in the form of AP classes. At my school (way back when), you got an extra 0.5 added onto your grade if it was an AP class. The effect of this was that the top 15 or so students out of a class of 450 had a GPA of 4.0. Of course, this was also at one of the highest-ranked schools in what was then considered the best school system in the country. And quite frankly, a number of those students went on to do quite well at Ivy League and other top-ranked schools.

Re:C average

[billcopc]

I personally think average students should aspire to be the best fry cooks and sandwich artists they can possibly be, because the foreign substitutes are doing a lousy job of it.

There's nothing wrong with average, as long as you know your limitations and make the most of what you have. What's wrong is when a clinical retard hangs a shingle and calls himself a web designer.

Re:C average

[Fred Ferrigno]

Their scale was 94-100 was an A, 85 to 93 was a B, 70 to 85 was a C, 63 to 70 was a D and everything else was an F. That's a waste of time and possibly counter-productive. Teachers will end up adjusting how they arrive at the percentage figure so the students get the same letter grade. One way they'll do that is by making tests and assignments easier. Surely that was not the intent.

Re:C average

[billcopc]

Good in theory, but in practice kids will just linger around for the free money and still end up doing nothing. Responsibility is becoming a rarity in today's society.

I'm unfortunately somewhat fascist in my ideals, but there are fixed numbers of each type of career needed in any given community. Sending more people to college only means we'll have more college grads flipping burgers. There's no shortage of skilled minds, there's just a glut of incompetent lazy minds.

Re:C average

[tompaulco]

I didn't realize that teachers gave grades. I always thought that you earned your grades based on the work performed. Every class that I went through always had a published scale. If you got so many points you got the corresponding grade.
Way to read too much into the word "gave". Of course, they published a scale, and of course you were given a grade based mostly on the work performed. However, not all classes are math. Classes in the Sciences, Languages, History, Performing Arts, Athletics, heck, the vast majority of the curriculum are subject to subjective interpretation of your work. The particular classes which I would receive Bs in were typically ones in which interpretation of literature or texts were involved. Ironically, I received As in all of these classes in University, and was asked by one of my professors to consider switching to an English major.

This kind of attitude, whether it is yours or not, is prevalent in today's kids. There are so many candidates that come in for interviews that have this sense of entitlement. I think that there should be come more B's and C's given out when the work reflects it, not the grade inflation that we see now.
There is undoubtedly a sense of entitlement among today's youth. Most kids in my neighborhood, including my stepson believe that it is a requirement for their parent to give them a car when they turn 16. I think that theft of other people's property is also linked to a sense of entitlement. But my original thought I was trying to expound was that kids shouldn't be surprised when their parents complain that they get Cs. Most kids respond "But C is average!". To which I have 2 responses. One, C is actually below average according to the marks actually given and 2) do you know what the "average" family earns, and what you can buy on that?

Re:C average

[svnt]

Where is E? Did the school board flunk kindergarten?

Ahem, it's kindrgartn. *cough*Oklahoma*cough*

No they're not...

[the_skywise]

What part of: "The City Council has not yet approved the funding." = "schools in the Alabama city will be the first US students to make use of the XO laptop."

Re:No they're not...

[scubamage]

Given the article I believe the statement was about the scholarship, not the purchase of the laptops.

Re:No they're not...

[barocco]

"The City Council has not yet approved the funding." => Slashdot space-time continuum distorter(TM) => "schools in the Alabama city will be the first US students to make use of the XO laptop." There, fixed.

Re:No they're not...

[owlnation]

schools in the Alabama city will be the first US students to make use of the XO laptop

It could be the normal German usage of the word "will"? Meaning something like "should". Or it could be that the summary is sensationalist. That would be "sensationalist" in the common English usage of the word, to avoid any further confusion.

Re:No they're not...

[Kromium]

"the", and "city"?

Re:No they're not...

[TheQuantumShift]

Ah, the true "Slashdot Effect"...

C average?

[CRCulver]

The opening up of the university system to all and sundry has already lowered standards and resulted in grade inflation. Just compare the rigour of an undergraduate education a half-century ago to the situation now where anyone (even me) can breeze through four years without a challenge. Is paying for college for people with a C-average instead of directing them towards only vocational training--as in many other Western countries--a good idea?

Re:C average?

[scubamage]

Ah yes, because the "head start" program and "No Child Left Behind" have done any better. At least with this program kids who otherwise would have no way to go to college have the choice to go.

Re:C average?

[DragonWriter]

Is paying for college for people with a C-average instead of directing them towards only vocational training--as in many other Western countries--a good idea?

Scholarships offered independently of the school don't guarantee admission, and the scholarships are for any college or technical school. So, even granting, for the sake of argument, that broadening admission criteria is potentially harmful, that's irrelevant to what is going on here.

Unless, of course, you think that with the same grades and other performance measures, people who are poor should be kept out of college in favor of those who are rich.

Re:C average?

[jdunn14]

No, and we're doing them any favors by pushing everyone through high school regardless of ability either. My mother works at a community college, and the number of kids that have to go straight into remedial english and math is appalling. But we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings... no, it's better to let the real world do that. Then there's no one that can be pointed to as "the problem".

Here's something else I don't understand. What is this country's aversion to vocational schools/training? We as a society seem to look down on such training, but I'll gladly pay someone many tens of dollars per hour to make my car go, make my AC work, fix plumbing, rewire my house, add an addition to the dwelling, etc. There is nothing wrong with this. You don't like school, but think cars are fun? Hello mechanic work. It just seems silly, these people are as important to our economy and every day life as the surgeons.

Re:C average?

[Marcus Green]

Absolutely, if grades are going up it must mean that exams are getting easier, it absolutly cannot mean that teaching methods are getting better or students are studying harder. You can tell in a similar way that the mile has got shorter in the last 50 years ago. Way back when, absolutly nobody could run it in under 4 minutes, but these days lots of people can do it. People have defnintly not improved their training techniques. They really ought to adjust measuring equipment to allow for this shorter mile, and of course Mt Everest has got lower..... yaddda yadda

Re:C average?

[CRCulver]

Absolutely, if grades are going up it must mean that exams are getting easier, it absolutly cannot mean that teaching methods are getting better or students are studying harder.

I read Classics as an undergraduate. Fifty years ago, students had to be able to read Latin and Greek texts without prior experience with them (unseens), compose fluently in Latin, and be able to quote a least some poetry. Now, all they need to know is some basic morphology, translate passages they've already been able to work out on their own time, and perhaps be able to read some abridgements and simplifications of the original on exams. There is little disagreement among Classicists over falling language standards. I'm sure the same problem exists in other fields.

Re:C average?

[WrongMonkey]

If you take any science related major you will be learning material in your undergrad studies that didn't exist 50 years ago. How can you compare the two?

Re:C average?

[nine-times]

Our aversion to vocational training comes from a bunch of elitist snobs who are in denial about being elitist snobs. If you listen to them, they'll claim the idea that "not everyone should go to college" is elitist, exclusionary, and bigoted. Inherent in those claims are the belief that you *must* go to college in order to be a decent human being, and that anyone who opposes a 100% enrollment in college only does so in order to keep everyone else "down".

It's a foreign idea to these people to consider that a mechanic or carpenter might still be a decent person, still be a smart person, and even still be a happy person. To them, being a carpenter or mechanic is "dirty work", and considered unfit for any human to undertake. They have no problem reaping the benefits of that work being done, but they believe it's an insult to tell someone that they should consider anything other than white-collar work.

Hypocrites.

Re:C average?

[Dan Ost]

Unless, of course, you think that with the same grades and other performance measures, people who are poor should be kept out of college in favor of those who are rich. My own experience, as a kid coming from a poor family but with excellent grades and test scores, getting financial aid was super simple. It's the kids who have good, but not great, grades/scores that have trouble. Top schools compete for top students and will bend over backwards to ensure the top students have the means to attend. There are enough good students out there that the top schools don't have to compete for them.

Of course, a good student at a non-top school can very often be one of the top students at that school and qualify for grants and scholarships that would have been unattainable to them otherwise. Just one of the benefits of being a big fish in a small pond, I suppose.

Re:C average?

[tompaulco]

In my state (Oklahoma), or at least in my County, public schools are funded out of property taxes. This is fairly common. What is somewhat progressive, I think, is that a portion of property taxes also goes to support your closest vocational school, technical school, or junior college. Depending on income, some people can go through these schools and get an associates degree for free. My sister, who had been delivering pizzas, got an associates in CAD for next to nothing, and is now working at much higher pay in a professional environment with health care benefits and Paid Time Off.

Re:C average?

[couchslug]

"Is paying for college for people with a C-average instead of directing them towards only vocational training--as in many other Western countries--a good idea?"

Only if you want to continue to use the trade schools as a dumping ground...
There is good money in the trades, but our society despises them so we chase potential talent away from learning about them.

Re:C average?

[Donniedarkness]

And... who is going to be helped by being able to quote poetry?

Not that there's anything wrong with poetry, I just don't see how me not being able to quote Robert Frost means that my college is shitty.

Re:C average?

[DragonWriter]

My own experience, as a kid coming from a poor family but with excellent grades and test scores, getting financial aid was super simple. My own experience, as a kid coming from a poor family but with excellent grades and test scores, getting financial aid was super simple. It's the kids who have good, but not great, grades/scores that have trouble.

Yeah, I'd agree that they'll be the big beneficiaries.

Of course, a good student at a non-top school can very often be one of the top students at that school and qualify for grants and scholarships that would have been unattainable to them otherwise.

Non-top schools often don't have as many grants and scholarships (for instance, when I attended Caltech, I was pretty much the bottom of the barrel of admits -- yet received pretty much full support because anyone that got into Caltech that didn't have everything covered by scholarships and had financial need was covered by Caltech grants at the time [not sure if that's still true].)

When that didn't work out, the other schools I went to (where I was certainly, comparatively, much higher on the performance totem pole than at Caltech), it would have been much harder to get money if I had had the same need (fortunately, because of changed family circumstances, I didn't, but I had done the research and it just wasn't there.)

Re:C average?

[CRCulver]

If your university promises to train you in something, and then doesn't, wouldn't you conclude that there was something wrong with the university? Classics departments promise to initiate students into the tradition of Greek, Latin, and ancient history studies, but their ability to do so grows less with each passing year. And don't claim "Oh, it's useless anyway". Lots of fields in the humanities seem of little value to any given person, but what we are discussing here is the changing expectations in the field, not the field itself.

Re:C average?

[TheRaven64]

Or, possibly, the classics are no longer seen as important. I did Latin up to age 14 (1996), and was expected in the exam at the end of each year to translate passages I hadn't seen before and perform reading comprehension exercises on others. Out of my year group of around 100, I believe three went on to do Latin at GCSE and none at A-Level. In the entire country, I think only 100 or so did GCSE Ancient Greek in my year. My school had two teachers who were qualified to teach ancient Greek, but they had no students in my year (someone did do the GCSE two years after me, I believe).

As a computer scientist, the understanding of grammatical construction I gained from Latin has been invaluable to me, but I don't believe continuing studying the language after I was 14 would have benefited me much.

Re:C average?

[timeOday]

I read Classics as an undergraduate. Fifty years ago, students had to be able to read Latin and Greek texts without prior experience with them (unseens), compose fluently in Latin, and be able to quote a least some poetry... There is little disagreement among Classicists over falling language standards. I'm sure the same problem exists in other fields.

I'm not so sure the same problem exists in other fields; people have simply turned away from classicism towards more economically productive studies. Is that so bad? I see more value in math and science. I'd rather study "the way things are" than "the way people used to think about things."

Re:C average?

[CRCulver]

FWIW, my studies of Greek and Latin were in the context of diachronic linguistics, which is very much applicable to present issues.

Re:C average?

[Fred Ferrigno]

Personally, I don't draw a distinction between vocational training and college. College is a sort of vocational training for most people. So if you were to ask me if 100% of people should engage in some sort of post-secondary career education, I would say yes. Maybe that means grad school. Maybe that means an apprenticeship in the pipe-fitters' union. Society as a whole is better off when everyone is better educated in their field.

Re:C average?

[billcopc]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. An average Joe with an engineering degree is both a lame engineer and a waste of a good fry cook. The big problem comes from the ridiculous amount of money in the education business. It's all about the cash. Letting the dumbest of dumb get their B.A. just means more money for the schools, and a greater windfall for the government.

If we approached education on parity with jobs, we could say "we need X good doctors, Y lawyers and Z engineers - everyone else, start shoveling". Excess people will end up taking crappy jobs either way, but the way things are today, they waste 4-5 years and a ton of money in school before ending up in that shit job. It's just a huge waste of resources.

Re:C average?

[servognome]

If we approached education on parity with jobs, we could say "we need X good doctors, Y lawyers and Z engineers - everyone else, start shoveling"

Yeah, centralized economic management really works out well.

Excess people will end up taking crappy jobs either way, but the way things are today, they waste 4-5 years and a ton of money in school before ending up in that shit job. It's just a huge waste of resources.

Or when there is lack of opportunities those people will leverage their education to start their own businesses.

Re:C average?

[billcopc]

Spoken like a true capitalist.

Whether an engineer is self-employed or on someone else's payroll, he fulfills the same responsibilities. Starting a business only makes sense when there is a need to be satisfied. A million master's graduates may well create a million business, but the market will only bear as many as are needed and the rest will fail. More importantly, the ones that fail have wasted time and money that would have been better spent elsewhere.

I'm not saying fascism has ever worked, but it's no worse than any other system. The breaking point in any government is the human element of greed. People are not machines, they bend and break rules for personal gain. Democracy is messed up because of major puppetry in the media, and the resultant ignorance in the masses.

If we ever find (or create) someone or something that can run a system without cheating or favoritism, it doesn't matter which government model we choose, it will be far more efficient than anything we've ever tried.

Re:C average?

[Marcus Green]

There has been little disaagreement about falling standards in education since the word education was first invented. Take any point in history and there was a section of the population who agreed that standards in education are falling. They tended to be the same section of the population who noticed that the world was going to hell in a handbasket/cart. Doesn't actually mean anything.

Re:C average?

[servognome]

Whether an engineer is self-employed or on someone else's payroll, he fulfills the same responsibilities. Starting a business only makes sense when there is a need to be satisfied. A million master's graduates may well create a million business, but the market will only bear as many as are needed and the rest will fail. More importantly, the ones that fail have wasted time and money that would have been better spent elsewhere.

The problem is nobody can properly identify the market needs. Luckily we didn't limit the number of opportunities in computers to follow the famous prediction - "there may be a world market for maybe five computers."
A person denied the opportunity to study and becomes a laborer will most likely just do the labor. A person who has education and becomes a laborer will have a larger set of tools and perspectives to create new opportunities.
It isn't just about creating new opportunities, having more people with expertise in an area can improve the overall quality. 10 years ago the market already was saturated and had a dominant search engine, should we have stopped the founders of Google from pursuing PhD research on search engines?

If we ever find (or create) someone or something that can run a system without cheating or favoritism, it doesn't matter which government model we choose, it will be far more efficient than anything we've ever tried.

It isn't just about cheating and favoritism, it is about innate limitations on getting large groups of people to agree on any subject. Resources are limited, and even honest intelligent people can disagree on the best way to use those resources.

Re:C average?

[DigitalHammer]

Funny thing is that many people with vocational training are starting to earn more than $100k/yr.

Re:C average?

[darkfire5252]

I'm sure it varies from school to school and person to person, but as a senior undergraduate in the computer science program at the university of Tennessee in Knoxville, I can tell you that being able to 'breaaze through four years without a challenge' is definitely dependent on what you're doing and where you're doing it. Sure, I've had my share of easy classes, but considering that this week I have to turn in my final project report for my Reinforcement Learning class that details how I was able to program an algorithm that allowed Matlab to learn to play Texas Hold'em, hand over the source code that demonstrates how I was able to make a Sony AIBO robot able to navigate a maze consisting of 16" (406.6mm) x 16" cells on a 'go one cell left/right/forward' level without running into walls, and turn in my final project report detailing how my team successfully completed development of a (simulated, no actual hardware) computer designed to be placed on bicycles and report trip times and odometry stats, I would say that some programs require a little actual thought. Nevermind that I'm not even in a college considered to especially excel at computer science...

Re:C average?

[tehcyder]

Personally, I don't draw a distinction between vocational training and college. College is a sort of vocational training for most people.

No, it's not.

Do you think that most English Literature students become professional poets?

Re:C average?

[Fred Ferrigno]

If going to college didn't affect your career prospects, how many people do you think would bother? Many liberal arts students do go to college thinking that they will end up being a novelist or film director or something. Some really do want to become professional poets. Of course most people just go to college in response to pressure from their parents, but that's because their parents are convinced it will improve their career prospects.

Waste of money

[gasmonso]

Why on Earth do grade school students need to be issued a laptop? Early education should be about learning the basics. I remember not being able to use a calculator even in college Calculus classes as the professor thought it made people lazy and dependent on them. I do agree that schools should have computers, but every student?!?! Computer labs work just fine and cost a lot less than issuing every kid a computer.

gasmonso http://religiousfreaks.com/

Re:Waste of money

[SirGarlon]

I have not even heard a convincing argument of why young children need to use computers. What can a 10-year-old learn on a computer that A) actually needs to be taught in elementary school (as opposed to high school) and B) actually requires the computer to be taught effectively. Given child labor laws, the "need computer skills for the workplace" argument does not hold up in my opinion (for high school, sure, not not elementary school!)

Re:Waste of money

[InsaneProcessor]

It is a waste of money. My kids have had computer labs all through grade and middle school to learn how to use the software, not use the software as a crutch. Even in high school, some math classes don't use calculators because they are learning the principles by hand first. My boys are very computer literate because of this and have skills they can exercise without the computer as well.

Re:Waste of money

[explosivejared]

Why on Earth do grade school students need to be issued a laptop?

Isn't this a tired old argument already? I thought we had established what a useful tool that a personal computer had become for education. As a student from a rural area with limited educational resources, I can say from first hand experience with distance learning and paperless courses that PC's are becoming almost essential to education at the higher level. A good part of grade school education is priming children for the whole educational experience. Using the standard tools of the trade is only too obvious of an idea. I've always thought that the whole dependence on technology x was completely ridiculous. Technology is supposed to remove some labor intensive task. Tech is not making us dumber. The people that can only do math with a calculator probably wouldn't be able to set up an equation at all if calculators had never been invented. Tech + education == good for the most part. Note technology has to have some end. Throwing kids in front of a computer as a baby-sitting mechanism is not good. Allowing kids to have constant access to the tools a computer offers is a good idea.

Re:Waste of money

[Loosifur]

I agree to a certain extent. My girlfriend teaches elementary school, and one of her students who has severe ADHD was offered access to a computer to type answers to quizzes, assigments, etc. My girlfriend pointed out that a kid who couldn't be asked a question at a reading table and then told to go to his seat and write his answer without losing track of what he was doing wouldn't be best served by having to go to a separate table, log in, start Word, and type his response. The County, however, likes to see computers in classrooms for statistical (read: funding) reasons.

On the other hand, I understand school funding in Alabama (and school quality) to be substandard, and if they're using this to maybe provide texts that they can't afford to issue to kids normally, then this could be a great idea. Besides which, it doesn't hurt to get kids used to using computers, breaking up the "digital divide" so to speak.

Re:Waste of money

[Compholio]

I remember not being able to use a calculator even in college Calculus classes as the professor thought it made people lazy and dependent on them.

I had a Physics class where we were able to use Mathematica on some of our exams. Another school of thought says "your brain is only so big: use it for things that matter."

Re:Waste of money

[KE1LR]

There are a ton of kids in Maine who have spent the last few years proving this assumption -- that young kids don't learn anything useful on computers -- is wrong. Their program gave Powerbooks to all middle-school students and has produced remarkable results. It was recently renewed by the state legislature and is being expanded to additional grades with state $$, which is no small feat in a state under a lot of budget pressure. See link for published studies, etc. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Maine decided to go for OLPC's for the younger-then-middle-school set.

The primary problem in Maine's one-powerbook-per-child program has has come from backwards teachers like your Calc prof who won't adapt their teaching to the new technology.

Re:Waste of money

[nine-times]

I can't decide whether or not I agree with you. On the one hand, I have no difficulty imagining how computers could hinder education rather than help. People have a tendency to think that our education problem with somehow magically be solved if you just throw computers at the problem, when in fact the most important thing children can get is personal attention from parents and teachers.

On the other hand, our society (and economy) are becoming increasingly dependent on computers. Children who grow up without computers lack experience, which then puts them at a disadvantage later in life. Also, I think the Internet is an amazing tool for communication and discovery, and an Internet-connected child might have far more opportunities to broaden their minds than would otherwise be possible.

Re:Waste of money

[Chandon Seldon]

You to realize that computers are good for things other than "learning computer skills", right?

Re:Waste of money

[Dan Ost]

Interacting with a computer is one of the fastest ways to become literate.

If you're literate, you can teach yourself anything you can find a source for.

If this computer can teach kids to read and write while they're having fun with it, that, by itself, justifies putting it in their hands. Anything else it can teach them is a bonus.

Re:Waste of money

[GodfatherofSoul]

First off, I don't agree with the expense, but the rationale is more than just the direct utility of a laptop for school work. It's also about familiarizing kids with computers over everyday contact with them that you can't get from limited exposure at school during allotted times. I worked in a high school as a computer lab monitor for a couple years and almost all of the kids in the computer classes were really only different in that they were from affluent families that had access to computers. These kids, for the majority, weren't all that serious about computers though they had the exposure and experience to deal with the classes with little problems.

I had another group of kids NOT from well-off families who came in during lunch and after school to play around with the computers, play with web development, etc. They didn't have the experience, but they had the drive to do something with what they'd learned (at least 2 I know of went to K-State to major in computer-related fields). While they might have caught up in college, they were definitely at a disadvantage. The line between the two subsets of students was almost cartoonish.

This program, while probably prohibitively expensive, will level the playing field as kids from different economic strata will get far more exposure to computers and a real chance to pick up and hone the skills that most IT geeks take for granted.

Re:Waste of money

[Chandon Seldon]

It is a waste of money. My kids have had computer labs all through grade and middle school to learn how to use the software, not use the software as a crutch.

Learning how to use software is a waste of time except as job training. Knowing some specific pieces of software isn't computer literacy any more than knowing the story of Romeo and Juliet is literacy.

Even in high school, some math classes don't use calculators because they are learning the principles by hand first.

Computers aren't calculators. They're general purpose machines that can become calculators, but that doesn't mean that reasoning about calculators applies to computers.

It can be hard to see what the benefits of these computers will be for kids without actually watching them use the computers - but there are some things that are obvious. The easiest one I can see is that computers will help basic literacy and written communication skills. Kids working (or playing) on a computer can't just decide to not read, and if they want to communicate to anyone else they'll have to type. Maybe they'll type in retard leetspeek pidgin english, but that's still a step up for elementary-school students.

Re:Waste of money

[vivek7006]

your brain is only so big: use it for things that matter

Brain may be only so big, but mind is infinite.

Re:Waste of money

[pcgamez]

I skimmed the full report and it would appear that the writers are making assumptions. There is an assumption that the presence of laptops is what has lead to increased standardized test scores. This ignores the dozens of major changes that have been taking place in education over the last decade.

Re:Waste of money

[Smidge204]

I agree that, to a very large level, it is well-intentioned buy wasteful spending to cram computers into every classroom. I've personally been witness to hundreds of millions of dollar's worth of "network infrastructure upgrades" across several school districts, and it's a damn shame because nobody uses it. (Special "clean" power for computers installed in raceways with special orange outlets, 4 per workstation? The teacher plugged her mini fridge and coffee pot into one and used a chain of surge protectors from a normal wall outlet for the computers...)

Anyway, while a bit of a daydream I can see a potential at least.

1) The laptop as a replacement for textbooks. Able to be updated and searched. Also, carrying around one XO laptop is better than managing a half dozen books, and if the computers get recycled after 8th grade then the long term costs could level out.

2) It allows a student to keep more organized. Notes and assignments could be kept on the device and mirrored at a school or even district level server (the XO supports handwriting input). No more "forgetting your homework" since everything is in the computer. ("What happens if the student leaves it home" argument is irrelevant since that applies to notebooks too). Update school announcements and calendar events.

3) Media distribution to students. Imagine those typically boring films you had to watch, only being able to pause and rewind at your leisure and even take it home to study. Audio and video recordings/pictures from field trips or lessons. Combine this with those digital whiteboards and stream the info right to the laptops (already done in some places). A student could potentially take an entire day's worth of lessons home and replay them. Unit supports USB and wireless so storage isn't much of an issue on or off school grounds.

4) Parental monitoring. With the ability to record a log of daily use, if not entire lessons, the parents will have a better understanding of what goes on in the classroom (for better or worse). This assumes the parent actually bothers to access the laptop and check, of course, but it makes possible what is currently impossible or at least wildly impractical.

5) Electronic grading. With the ability to distribute and collect most assignments digitally, the entire process becomes simpler. One copy of an assignment can be distributed to any number of students and they can be submitted as soon as they are complete (cutoff times/due dates are easily implemented). Records of grades are easily maintained and accessed. Plagiarism is easier to detect using DIFF-like utilities, and I'd even support some kind of DRM-esque scheme to help detect or even prevent (something that is difficult to do with paper). Tests can be administered by providing a collection of questions that are presented in a different order for each student, with randomized answers for multiple-guess type exams. Beats scan-trons and makes cheating nearly impossible.

Again, all pure daydreaming on my part. None of this gets in the way of teaching the basics either, which I agree is most important. $200 per student seems a better deal than central labs, too. I've seen initiatives that have 1 computer for every 5 students, which is also about right for a computer lab since only one class can use it at a time. If the backend stuff is more or less the same, you can get five to ten $200 laptops for the cost of a single, normal desktop workstation - pretty significant savings - and each student has access all day.
=Smidge=

Re:Waste of money

[TheRaven64]

I am currently earning a living as a freelance writer. Until I was around 14, my English grades were consistently around the C mark, with very few above a B-. Then, at GCSE, I was allowed to use a computer for essays. Suddenly my average shot up to an A with a lot of A* grades. I write more with a keyboard in an average day than I do with a pen in a year. If I had been able to type essays from an earlier age I would have gained a lot more from English lessons than I did. Instead of learning how to use an archaic writing device with an obscenely badly-designed user interface, I would have been learning about English.

Computers were a part of my education from about the age of 7. I learned various forms of logic from exposure to programming environments. I leaned a lot about geometry from Logo. When I began learning French and German, I wrote a program that would repeatedly test my vocabulary. This enabled me to learn (and retain) vocab a lot faster than any other technique I had tried. I didn't have a laptop back then; I wrote the program on my Psion Series 3, which lived in my jacket pocket, and so could test myself whenever I had some spare time.

Re:Waste of money

[C_L_Lk]

This is very true - considering school districts typically pay publishers between $80-$100 per student text book - and usually get about 3 years of use per text before they are so damaged they need to be replaced - that is somewhere in the $25-$30/student/year/book range. If over the course of the student having this computer they are exposed to content from just 5 or 6 text books, without the purchase of those text books, the device has pretty much paid for itself in just that way alone. Add in the extra activities, access to Internet resources (think Project Gutenberg), classroom teaching, and familiarity with computing devices at an early age - and this is a clear win for the student and the school district. Classroom Lab computers are often abused, broken, not working properly, or otherwise fouled - in large part because the students don't have any responsibility toward the device as they will toward their "personal laptop" - and as well, these devices are sturdy, well built, and designed for the wear and tear even a third world child in rough conditions may put on them.

Re:Waste of money

[Belial6]

What are you talking about. Every time teacher salaries come up, I am consistently told that the reasons teachers salaries are low despite the data showing otherwise is because teacher are not being paid for the three months a year that they spend learning new teaching techniques, and making changes to their curriculum. How could his Calc prof possibly be backwards if he is spending a full quarter of his career keeping up to date?

Re:Waste of money

[RazzleDazzle]

Yeah, status quo is fine. Let's not try to push our children into learning important things at a younger age. Let's continue to do the same exact things forever and ever because that is the best way; live inside the box, outside of the box is a bad place.

Come on. You have no sense of adaptability and expect the next generation of humans not to excel and surpass you? Kids in the 20's were learning different things then they are in todays world. Do you think we should go back to the 20's education programs?

Computers are going to be so embedded into almost every single thing in the world, why would you drag your feet so much to get them exposed to computers to be build a solid foundation of experience and comfort? They will be using computers to make the next wave huge technological advancements in engineering, biology, etc.

Re:Waste of money

[jsupreston]

I too live in Alabama, and this shows you how FUBAR our politicians can be. Without trying to be too political, the previous governor nearly sold the state's soul in an effort to get computers into every classroom...from K-12. That philosophy has apparently made it to the local level. My sons are both in the Magnet Program, which is for highly gifted children. All the classrooms have multiple, less than 5 year old computers, yet the building looks like $#^7, with roofs that leak and A/C that works in the winter and heaters that work in the spring/summer, but not that well when they are supposed to. Chairs and desks are falling apart, and books that are missing pages in the library. BTW: They also have two relatively top notch computer labs.

I agree that computer use can enhance the educational experience, but my God! Why can't we get decent facilities for these kids, with decent books and furniture instead? I DON'T CARE IF MY CHILD HAS INTERNET IN HIS KINDERGARTEN OR THIRD GRADE CLASS. I wan't him to be able to learn in a relatively safe, comfortable environment. Yes, take the kids to the lab once or twice a week, but don't use technology as a crutch to get around the fact that the building and all its furniture is falling apart around the kids. Spend the money wisely.

That being said, I am all for a scholarship, but not for a child making just a C average. If the family has the money, they shouldn't need a scholarship. Tier the scholarships for those who need the money and are busting their tails in school. If a child is on welfare or lives in the projects and is making high grades in difficult classes, get them into college. If mommy and daddy live in a million dollar house in Mountain Brook, and they barely make C's, too bad. Mommy and daddy can sell one of their Beemers to get them in trade school.

Re:Waste of money

[Stefanwulf]

Honestly, I don't think they _need_ computers, and if your goal is to provide children with the minimum functional education, then you can quite easily do that without computers.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to expose children to a wide range of subjects and systems of thought, so that as a foundation for the rest of their education and life they learn how to take in, deal with, reason about, and critically compare new and different ideas, then you could do far worse than making sure everyone has access to wikipedia, interactive science and art demonstrations, political analysis, and a wide variety of news sources. The best way I know of to give someone all that information is to hand them a computer with an internet connection.

Re:Waste of money

[HikingStick]

Why laptops for every child? Less time in class teaching them the mechanics of writing (handwriting skills).

When I was in school [I know, I know, it sounds like I'm going to talk about walking uphill, barefoot, in a blizzard, but hear me out...], we spent a lot of time on handwriting (or penmanship). Now, having kids of my own in school, I was very surprised that there is no class time dedicated to this skill. They do adress the fundamentals in Kindergarten and First grade, but beyond that there is no formal training in how to write (block print or script). I've asked teachers about it. Half of my kids' handwriting is horrendous, and that's even after I've worked with them for hours on end and weeks at a time. I see the same in the hallways from the others kids, so mine aren't the only ones (bad penmanship used to be the exception, but now it seems to be the rule). Most of the teachers have told me not to worry about it, since everyone will be typing everything soon anyway. One went so far as to completely write off my first-grader's handwriting: she told us to buy Mavis Beacon and have him type all his work.

While I understand what they are saying--that keyboarding skills are absolutely necessary, they miss the point that there will be some times when you simply won't be able to use a keyboard/keypad. Just think of a disaster like Katrina--once the laptop batteries died, you would have to rely on handwriting if you need to record information. In retail, when the power drops, you still may need to write something down to record a sale (unless you want to let people walk out the door without their merchandise). I take my laptop everywhere (until last week--anyone have a spare motherboard for a Dell Inspiron 600m lying around?), but I've even been in some meetings where I was barred from using my laptop for note-taking because the other participants thought I either was a) writing a letter to grandma the whole time or b) capturing every word they spoke because I planned to use their words against them in the future.

So, yes, I can see benefit to all the kids having laptops, but to be successful, the laptop technologies will need to be integrated into every area of the classroom and schoolday (except, perhaps, for during floor hockey in phys. ed.;). I think this is primarily a PR move on the behalf of the school board. It creates the impression that they are really doing something about education. Not living in that state, I can't speak for the quality of the schools, but I would venture a guess that there are other ways to support the promotion of academics that would benefit from these funds.

Re:Waste of money

[servognome]

It takes 10 minutes to get there, 10 minutes back, you loose almost half of the period.

I guess the same applies to your English class.

Re:Waste of money

[bcrowell]

Not all schools that are doing laptops are doing it with tax dollars. There are two public elementary schools in my neighborhood in Fullerton, CA. One of them (not the one my kids go to, thank god) tried to require every student to buy a laptop. A lawsuit resulted, and AFAIK the plan has not been implemented, but there are other schools that are trying the same thing.

Personally, I didn't mind buying $200 Linux desktop boxes for my kids, but standard laptops are a ridiculously bad choice for young kids. They cost two to four times as much as a desktop system with the same specs, and they tend to die or become obsolete much more quickly, so you end up with something that's an order of magnitude more money for the same amount of use. With kids, you just add onto that the fact that it will get beat on more severely. It's also fairly difficult to buy a laptop without paying the Windows tax, so most of these programs end up being Windows-only -- yech, yet more favored treatment for MS by government, None of my arguments apply to the XO, however; the price is low, and they're designed to be durable enough so kids won't destroy them.

As a physics prof, I can see both sides of the argument about the educational appropriateness of computers. On the one hand, it would be silly to require my students to do long division on tests. On the other hand, not all calculators are created equal. Some, for instance, can do algebra and calculus. I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that it's unfair for one student to use a $300 calculator that can do algebra and calculus, while the other student can't afford that, and has to get by with an ordinary scientific calculator. Personally, my experience is that the student who is incompetent at algebra is also incompetent at setting up an algebra problem on a calculator, but I don't think it's quite as clearcut a luddite versus non-luddite issue as you're making out. If you talk to calculus teachers about why students fail first-semester calculus, they'll all say the same thing: it's because they haven't mastered arithmetic and algebra. You also can't completely separate things cleanly into important concepts versus unimportant details of technique. Knowing how to divide fractions by hand isn't a completely separate skill from understanding what it means to divide fractions, knowing when you should do it, knowing how to interpret the results, knowing how the result would change when you changed the inputs, ...

Re:Waste of money

[servognome]

I remember not being able to use a calculator even in college Calculus classes as the professor thought it made people lazy and dependent on them.

I remember having a vector calc teacher encourage us to use calculators because we could solve more complex problems faster.
For most engineering applications today it's more important to understand how to set up the problem and have a computer solve it than try to do it all by yourself.

Re:Waste of money

[legirons]

"A) actually needs to be taught in elementary school (as opposed to high school) and B) actually requires the computer to be taught effectively."

Creativity? Most hackers will be writing programs by age 8 or so -- not sure how they compare to people who don't have a programmable device at that age (but when you're hiring someone to write software, you don't want someone who met their first computer at high school)

Re:Waste of money

[AeroIllini]

Standard paper textbooks
- Math: $100
- History: $100
- Language: $100
- Social Studies: $100
- Additional computers (per student): $50 (assuming student:machine ratio of 16 and an $800 Dell machine)
Total: $400

XO Laptop
- Laptop: $100
- Online textbook subscription: $100
- Additional computers (per student): $0
Total: $200

Seems pretty simple to me.

Re:Waste of money

[GreggBz]

A laptop like this provides a nearly inexhaustible portable resource. A resource to write, a resource to create art, a resource to find information, a resource to do math, a resource to code, a resource to play games, a resource to communicate. That's a heck of a bargain for $200. How much do 2 years worth of texts cost? And, it's cool. I'm positive that children will be drawn to it.

Yea, you need basic skills. You also need a means to practice those skills, and expand on them.

It boggles my mind when I hear this argument. I can't imagine 50% of the careers around me without computers. Try being a leader of the modern world when you can't touch type or use the Internet efficiently.

Re:Waste of money

[Marcus Green]

"It was not until half-way through the year that he told me that I was failing due to being the first one done and not showing my work. The realization point was when I received a 20 out of 100 on a 5 question test. He told me he marked me off 80 points for not explaining to him how I got the answer."

It took you half-way through the year before noticing you were being told to show how you worked out the question, or did the prof say, "don't bother showing how you worked it out, just give me the answer"?

Re:Waste of money

[Shotgun]

The other side of the coin is that the brain is a muscle that must be exercised. Removal of all labor intensive activities is one of the reasons that Americans are so fat. The analogy transfers well to education. I convert 1/16" increments to decimal in my head, to the amazement of my two boys. If I ask them to solve a simple mechanical problem they will break out the calculators and compute an answer down to 7 digits, because that is the resolution of the calculator they were able to find after a 15 minute search. Meanwhile, I've finished the cut after a little pencil scratching and rounding the numbers off to useful values.

Knowing how to drive a nail with a hammer is important, even if you have a pneumatic stapler.

Re:Waste of money

[DamnStupidElf]

1) The laptop as a replacement for textbooks. Able to be updated and searched. Also, carrying around one XO laptop is better than managing a half dozen books, and if the computers get recycled after 8th grade then the long term costs could level out.

If grade school textbooks are anything like college textbooks, an XO is worth about two or three textbooks. That's pretty amazing when you consider that every student takes about 8 classes per year. Using open textbooks could *save* money if the schools bought laptops.

Re:Waste of money

[servognome]

OCD or something? Smoke some weed or something to chill out for God's sake, you're being an ass.

That's right, in the "No Child Left Behind Era", we can't point out other's mistakes because it makes them feel bad.

QQ

Re:Waste of money

[celle]

Ah hell, why send them to school at all. Save the public the money on a building that is little more than an analog of the mall. Save the time, potential deaths, social and mental abuse by just having the kids stay home and take their lessons. If they need to socialize let'em go to the mall or whatever on their own time instead of the public dime. They can do basically everything on the laptop then going anywhere is not needed and just a waste of money and effort.

Re:Waste of money

[Smidge204]

You, sir, are an idiot. Chances are you didn't know that.

Unless, of course, you care to explain in reasoned, non-assholish language how improving a student's access and means of organizing information negates the need for structured lessons and human interaction.
=Smidge=

Re:Waste of money

[mpesce]

Don't forget that there are non-trivial support costs associated with any laptop, even one as durable as XO.

Re:Waste of money

[AeroIllini]

Those non-trivial support costs also apply to the $800 Dell computer being split between 16 students in the school, which is why I left them out. They cancel out of the comparative exercise.

Oh, and I noticed that the first set of numbers add to $450, not $400. I must have missed it in the preview.

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[account_deleted]

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Hey Paw, I got a C!

[Finuance]

I could see helping those students to head on out to a trade/tech school, so they can become trailer truck drivers or welders, but c'mon!

It's getting to the point where the college degree is a relatively unimpressive feat in today's world.

Should every child go to college? Or should every capable child go to college.

A C average is nothing to be excited about. Funding like this should be reserved for putting our brightest in college.


Good thing they didn't approve this.. yet.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[Anonymous Coward]

Do those C students know how to write sentences that aren't run-ons? I bet the A students do.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[SydShamino]

No, you've got it all wrong. Because all of our lower-education but higher-paying jobs are moving away, we need more people to go to college. We can't afford to relegate all of our C students to truck drivers and welders, as you say: those jobs are going to be filled by D and F students, dropouts, and immigrants.

It's getting to the point where the college degree is a relatively unimpressive feat in today's world.

Don't sound so elitist. It's a good thing that a college degree is a common feat. For a lot of students, college is the first place that's going to make them think and work. If these C students can't do it, they'll drop out fast and become truck drivers. If, however, they are genuinely hard workers but just not bright, or bright but never motivated, they'll get out of college the tools they need to get a better job, live in a better place, have better health care, and raise kids able to get Bs and As and lead a better life.

Should every child go to college?

To reiterate: no. But, we need more than our B and A students going to college. Because the jobs left in our country require either no-skill or the education from a college degree, we need get our "average" student into college.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[DragonWriter]

I could see helping those students to head on out to a trade/tech school

If you give everyone with a C or better average a scholarship to college or technical school, as the proposal described in TFA would, then those who have the performance to be admitted to college can use it to go to college (which most C students will not unless they have impressive test scores, extracurriculars, and/or demanding courses in which they got the Cs), and those who don't have the performance or inclination for college can use it to go to a technical school. So I don't see what you are objecting to: the proposal seems to have the effect you desire.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[cayenne8]

"Don't sound so elitist. It's a good thing that a college degree is a common feat. "

But in a way....it is lowering the standards, just like we're doing in so many other areas. With a college degree, this cheapens it. It is pretty much already the case that todays college bachelors degree, is the equivalent to the HS degree of a few decades ago. In the past and bachelors pretty much ensured you'd get a good paying higher level job. Now, a BS or BA is the minimum requirement for almost any job besides riding on the back of the garbage truck.

Rather than lower the standards to "C", and having to teach remedial courses in college, why not start earlier in high school, to encourage learning the basics and getting those A's and B's.....so they can be ready for higher learning.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[Finuance]

No, you've got it all wrong. Because all of our lower-education but higher-paying jobs are moving away, we need more people to go to college.

Hmmm, this is what happens when you lower the bar.

We're competing globally, so now the best of the best foreigners are winning over our C average. Yep, that piece o' paper can't mask the fact that an average Joe is just an average Joe.

Pushing our average through college with taxpayer monies still doesn't help them compete with the brightest from other countries if they are just average.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[hansamurai]

But why should someone later in life be punished because they weren't motivated enough when they were young? I think it's great that they're encouraging their students to go to school. Why should high school C students receiving a diploma cheapen your degree? If they went to college and graduated, they earned exactly what they're given.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[servognome]

In the past and bachelors pretty much ensured you'd get a good paying higher level job. Now, a BS or BA is the minimum requirement for almost any job besides riding on the back of the garbage truck.

The reason is the world is getting more complex and the skills needed for an average job are increasing.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[DragonWriter]

Rather than lower the standards to "C", and having to teach remedial courses in college, why not start earlier in high school, to encourage learning the basics and getting those A's and B's.....

Unless you are encouraging grade inflation, no amount of encouraging learning the basics is going to change the fact that C's are "average". If the needs of the modern economy is for more education (either college or trade) for a person to be basically productive and self-supporting adult, then just as highschool became universal when it previously hadn't been, and that needs to happen for post-highschool formal education; making whatever post-highschool education they are academically qualified for financially accessible to average performers is a step in that direction.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[bogjobber]

Exactly. Instead of pushing people into post-secondary who don't really need or want it, why don't we work on improving our absolutely terrible, horrible, god-awful secondary school system. Our post-secondary system is (IMHO) the best in the world, and we don't need to dilute that and destroy it. What we need to do is make sure that people get the basic education that they need from 7-12th grade. Our secondary school system needs to change dramatically. People that aren't interested in academics drop out early because there's nothing more for them that they want to learn (when they could at the very least be learning a trade), while the smartest get held back by mediocre students. It's a one-size-fits-all mentality that doesn't really work.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[aztektum]

But in a way, it's a shame those people are alive in the first place. NOW they should get a shot or pushed towards a better quality life? Inconceivable!

The only reason this means ANYTHING is because of money. Specifically those that have more than others are worried theirs will be worth less is more have more.

The stupid thing is, money isn't shit. It's just another tool like a computer or a telephone. It facilitates our ability to get the job done (the job being commerce). Take it away and you still have a need for people to actually DO something to survive. Since ease of survival is pretty trivial for many, money is the new air, the new blood. We don't need to all be farmers or hunters to survive.

Make no mistake, I have no problem with the concept of money. More the overwhelming desire to amass it by the bucket load (in many cases without doing anything at all for it).

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[SydShamino]

You have it completely wrong. The jobs leaving the country are Machinist V at the local Ford assembly plant. The jobs left in the US require computer and communication skills, logical thinking, knowledge of business and economics. These are all things that a high school C student who applies himself can learn in college, whereby he can get a good job and better his children's future.

Our C average students could never compete with the best of the best foreigners. They don't have to.

Re:Hey Paw, I got a C!

[Finuance]

high school C student who applies himself
Right, and if that high school C student applied himself in high school, he could have gotten a scholarship for college! LOL!

Look, you don't have to prove to me that today's world is oh so complex. It isn't. It is just a set of different processes that actually simplify many things that were complex, were difficult or just took a long time to complete.

And also, if you think it is just blue collar jobs being outsourced OR being taken by foreigners working in our country you are very very mistaken. Heck, I work for an engineering company and we hire plenty of foreign engineers (mechanical, electrical, etc) and are currently looking to outsource some engineering in India! Our C students do have to compete more because of globalization. In many different disciplines.

I have no problem with C students or D students going to college and having a "second chance" at actually doing well. I just don't think we should reward such lackluster effort in high school on the taxpayer's dime.

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

C average or above?

[PhotoGuy]

So let me get this straight, C average or above to get rewarded with laptops and scholarships?

Way to keep setting that bar higher and higher, America! You can win by being average!

(In all honesty, I think affording more kids accessibility to laptops and University is a great thing. Just why not make it universal, rather than "C average or above," which makes it a bit comical... Those with F averages aren't going to be qualify for University in the first place. In fact, at least here in Canada, I believe those with C averages wouldn't get in, either. Oh wait, making higher education accessible to all is probably gonna be shot down by Bush as being too socialistic, just like the children's health plan thing... [Shakes head...])

Re:C average or above?

[DragonWriter]

So let me get this straight, C average or above to get rewarded with laptops and scholarships?

Well, clearly, you are performing at below expected level, so wouldn't get the scholarship.

The laptops are universal, and not a reward. The scholarships are for C average or better, and are arguably not a "reward" either, so much as a recognition that either college or technical school is as necessary as a highschool diploma was a few decades ago, and the area wants to improve its economic condition, it would be desirable for the baseline to be moved up to include being able to attend one of those institutions.

Yeah, sure, its a change, but there was a time when education beyond the eighth grade was exceptional and only open to those with wealth or who impressed a wealthy benefactor with their performance. Heck, there was a time that that was true of formal schooling period. The baseline moves.

Just why not make it universal, rather than "C average or above," which makes it a bit comical... Those with F averages aren't going to be qualify for University in the first place.

"University" != "college" != "college or technical school".

Re:C average or above?

[DragonWriter]

Don't know where you live, but in the US no one makes the distinction. FYI.

I live in the US (more specifically California) and everybody I've ever met makes a distinction between college (which is more general, and includes, e.g., 2-year institutions that issue only associate's degrees and various certificates, but not bachelor's or graduate degrees) and university (which is usually limited to institutions that issue graduate and/or professional degrees as well as undergraduate degrees, but sometimes used in a more generic sense that includes institutions that grant bachelor's degrees even if they don't grant graduate/professional degrees.)

I've never seen someone (an American in the US speaking English to another American, at any rate) refer to a community college or similar as "university".

Re:C average or above?

[tepples]

I've never seen someone (an American in the US speaking English to another American, at any rate) refer to a community college or similar as "university". It goes the other way. American English speakers often call universities "colleges".

Re:C average or above?

[TheRaven64]

I live in the US (more specifically California) I don't live in the US (although my publisher is US-based, I primarily write for a US-audience, and used to date a girl from the US) so I might be wrong in this, but it seems to be fairly common on the east coast to use 'school' 'college' or 'university' interchangeably to refer to university. This is somewhat confusing for someone from the UK, where each term has a very different meaning.

Re:C average or above?

[p0tat03]

In fact, at least here in Canada, I believe those with C averages wouldn't get in, either.

Better check your facts. There are *many* well recognized universities one can get into in Canada with a C average. I know plenty of people who have done just that.

Grades aren't the end-all and be-all of performance indicators. I know a high school dropout who formed his own IT business when he was 16, and then managed to make it into the most prestigious engineering school in Canada by virtue of his accomplishments in the industry.

Denying someone the opportunity to improve themselves simply because they don't adhere to your standardized tests is amongst the dumbest ideas in existence. Ivory tower academic elites have already done enough damage by establishing academics and grades as the silver-bullet measure to intelligence.

Re:C average or above?

[DragonWriter]

It goes the other way. American English speakers often call universities "colleges".

Yes, which is why I said in an earlier paragraph in the post you quoted from that college was the more general term. There is, nevertheless, a meaningful distinction: "university" doesn't mean the same thing as "college" (though "college" may include "university") and neither means the same as "college or technical school".

Re:C average or above?

[servognome]

Way to keep setting that bar higher and higher, America! You can win by being average!

Having a C-average in school doesn't necessarily mean you are an average individual. Grades aren't the end-all for evaluating a person's performance or a good measure of their potential.
Give the children tools and see what they can create, there are many creative children who have skills which do not necessarily translate to academic performance. Music, art, and even computer skills aren't measured in traditional schools.

" Alabama Schools to be First in US to Get XO..."

[N Nomad]

"SHOOT i aint neva seen one of deese befoe, lets see now..says here we need ELECI..ELECTRICI..ELECTRI-CITY for use.Aw hell we dont got those over here"

All together now!

[PinkyDead]

Oh I come from Alabama with an XO on my knee.

Re:All together now!

[everphilski]

I've got blisters on me fingers!

This is a first, open source anything for Alabama!

[ttroutma]

YEAH! Hopefully this is a step towards breaking windows from completely strangling the technical life out of that state. Everything else about Alabama is free and easy compared to most other states - maybe it finally catches up with software. (I live in Kaliforniastan) BTW I bought 4 XO laptops (2 for me, 2 for giveaway) in hopes that they could be used in the States in the future. I don't care about third world, the XO will be probably used there as improvised land warrior communications systems to more effectively kill people.

Laptops For Sale

[sexconker]

The first thing most of these kids will do is "lose" these laptops, and sell them.

The lockout daemon (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070218-8872.html) will by bypassed / hacked, just like everything else.

If not, simply wipe all data and start fresh, or start gutting the machine (a little solder never stopped anybody).

A "C" grade?

[Sepiraph]

As I recall from my high school experience, getting a C requires me to do absolutely no studying at all (except half-listening in class). Is there any motivation when the goal set is so LOW? If we truly want the brilliant students to succeed, they need to be challenged, not bored to death...

Re:A "C" grade?

[Mr Z]

Maybe the thought is that the C students still have a chance to get motivated, and need to be reached in a different way, since whatever they're currently doing doesn't work?

At least this should...

[helpmeconfess]

At least this should make them cheaper on eBay as more show up. :-)

Re:At least this should...

[DirtyHerring]

> At least this should make them cheaper on eBay as more show up. :-)

Sadly (or luckily?), ebay keeps removing all olpc xo offers

more news on alabama

[flynt]

I just heard that the governor has signed a law in Alabama raising the drinking age to 35. He wants to keep alcohol out of the high schools.

just a joke.

Re:more news on alabama

[blindd0t]

I think the bigger concern is having uncle-dad in the same class. ^_^

All kidding aside, I think a major goal we should set is to better educate parents on school curriculum. It seems very common for a parent to be rusty and out-of-date when it comes down to their child's curriculum. Even a parent with a college degree can get very rusty with basic algebra, for example. Besides, some things do change with time (i.e. common methods/techniques). I think it would be great to help guide the parents via the XO. For example, parents never get the solutions to math problems. Perhaps the XO could prove really helpful in that sense (provided it is implemented correctly, of course). I understand there's no perfect solution here, but I've always felt that parent involvement could be more effective in many cases.

C average - Low Bar

[Nom du Keyboard]

give Birmingham students with a C average or above a scholarship to college or tech school of their choice.

That's an awful low bar to ask them to meet. If I only need to make a C to get a scholarship, that's likely only as hard as I'm going to work for it.

Re:C average - Low Bar

[DragonWriter]

That's an awful low bar to ask them to meet. If I only need to make a C to get a scholarship, that's likely only as hard as I'm going to work for it.

You probably need better than that to get into a decent school, which getting the city scholarship won't guarantee.

All this does (or is intended to do) is make it so that students that make even modest effort won't be denied access to whatever college or technical school their academic record qualifies them for because of their finances. Which, IMO, is a good thing. Rich students still have an advantage, of course, from legacy admissions on the like, as well as advantages in the environment they are likely to have supporting them in getting decent grades in the first place, but reducing the degree to which opportunity is a function of wealth is a good thing.

Re:C average - Low Bar

[JoeStreet]

In my area a C average is required to participate in most school sponsored extracurricular activities such as sports, band, etc. I don't see why there shouldn't be a similar requirement to participate in this program. And given that the whole program is designed to advance the students academics, a low bar makes more sense than a high one.

What does this PC actually provide them?

[MikeRT]

This is a feel-good measure, nothing more. Tossing a laptop into a mix of bad teachers, and bad schools is not going to improve anything. There are several major problems, none of them technology related, that have made public education a colossal failure:

1) Most of the people who are teaching subjects, have their primary education in "education."
2) Teacher's unions.
3) School policies that don't allow proper discipline for disruptive students.
4) A legal system that actually listens to parents who sue when schools properly punish their kids for misbehaving.
5) Government monopolies that make it financially impossible for most parents to afford to send their kids to private schools or homeschool them.

But it's ok, technology will save the day. It couldn't do a damn thing for other social problems like pirating copyrighted materials, but it'll be able to take on... entrenched bureaucracies, good ol'boy networks, unions, crufty legal codes and parents who have no ability to hold their kids responsible for their behavior and are willing to shout and sue at the drop of a dime. Go technology, you modern day messiah of secular America.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[timeOday]

Tossing a laptop into a mix of bad teachers, and bad schools is not going to improve anything.

Are you so sure? At least kids who do want to learn will have access to the greatest library the world has ever known. I have more faith in access to information than what you believe, which is that everybody just needs more punishment. (Technology is a failure because it hasn't cured the "social problem" of copyright infringement? Let's go back to stone age, nothing curbs piracy like illiteracy and having to use a hammer and chisel!)

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[mcscooter]

Please back up your claims with studies NOT done by conservative think-tanks.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[jimicus]

I shall tell you what this PC provides them.

It provides them with executives from Intel and Microsoft getting on the first plane to Alabama to offer them a Windows-based laptop for a special discount price.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[tfoss]

2) Teacher's unions. Do you have any actual evidence of this being a major problem? I know it's a lovely scape-goat particularly for political opponents of unions, but that doesn't give the argument any validity. In fact the researcher's who've tried to look at this say there really isn't enough data to make a conclusion one way or another. Further, charter schools (sans unions) have shown no improvement [warning:PDF link] in student performance.

3) School policies that don't allow proper discipline for disruptive students.
4) A legal system that actually listens to parents who sue when schools properly punish their kids for misbehaving. Not sure, but it sounds like you are suggesting corporal punishment?

5) Government monopolies that make it financially impossible for most parents to afford to send their kids to private schools or homeschool them. I'm not sure I understand how Gov't provided education makes private schools charge prohibitively expensive rates.

-Ted

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[BigDumbAnimal]

Of course, studies completed by major Colleges and Universities would be fine despite the fact that they are basically liberal think-tanks.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[slapout]

1) Hire only teachers that do not have a college degree with a focus on primary or secondary education

What a concept! Have teacher teach the subject they majored it!

2) Dissolve the unions so they can get an even lower wage than they are getting now (should help with recruiting these teachers to teach in public schools in poor, troubled areas rather than make more teaching in private schools or richer districts, right?)

Lower wages? When I started in IT, teachers in Alabama were making more than me. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for teachers. But when unions get involved, it seems that the kids take a back seat.

3) Bring back corporal punishment to "quiet down" all those disruptive kids instead of leaning towards a cirriculum that will actually engage them and make learning interesting and rewarding

It's called discipline. No matter how good the curriculum, you'll still have to make the kids behave.

4) Turn a blind eye to physical harm of said children

What??

5) Ultimately, get rid of public schools althogether?

If you didn't produce at your job, would they get rid of you?

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[mcscooter]

Peer reviewed scientific studies are a far cry from the special interest funded FUD and propaganda put out by places such as the American Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation, Etc. I suppose facts have a liberal bias too?

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[poot_rootbeer]

1) Most of the people who are teaching subjects, have their primary education in "education."

I don't see anything wrong with this. (Apart from your punctuation, that is.)

The most important thing for a programmer to know is not Java or C or SQL or HTML syntax, but to know how to write good code regardless of language. Similary, the most important thing for a teacher to know is how to teach, regardless of subject matter.

A person who has passed a high school Science class and completed a degree in Education should be entirely capable of teaching high school Science. At a post-secondary level? Yeah, the requirements to be a teacher should be somewhat higher. And they are.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[shiftless]

Not sure, but it sounds like you are suggesting corporal punishment?

Yeah, "corporal punishment" is an every day reality of Southern schools, not sure about elsewhere. If you pick fights, don't listen to the teacher, cause trouble, be disrespectful to authority figures, or otherwise show your ass, then you get taken out into the hall or into the vice principals office and get a few licks from the paddle to straighten your ass out. Most kids only have to experience this once to change their ways. The more stubborn ones learn eventually. There's usually at least one or two teachers at a school who are well known and feared for their paddling skills, and it usually only takes the *threat* of getting paddled by one of those fellas to make you think twice about being a pain in the ass.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[shiftless]

I'm not sure I understand how Gov't provided education makes private schools charge prohibitively expensive rates.

Me either. Where I live in Gadsden, AL, there are plenty of private schools and there are plenty of kids who attend them. Obviously they are more expensive than public schools, but judging by the number of kids who go to these schools, obviously they are not THAT expensive.

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[tfoss]

Yeah, "corporal punishment" is an every day reality of Southern schools, not sure about elsewhere. Not anywhere I've gone to school or been in contact with kids in school.

If you pick fights, don't listen to the teacher, cause trouble, be disrespectful to authority figures, or otherwise show your ass, then you get taken out into the hall or into the vice principals office and get a few licks from the paddle to straighten your ass out. So you want schools to instill a belief system that says violence is the solution to problems? I don't. I would be furious if I found out a teacher beat my kid. That is not the type of solution I find acceptable, and fortunately, neither do most public institutions. You don't see our justice system sentence people to few licks from the paddle, and for damn good reason. Do you really think the solution to picking fights (violence) is paddling (school sanctioned violence)? That is just as hypocritical as the dad who says "don't hit your sister, *smack* ."

The more stubborn ones learn eventually. What they learn though is the problem...violence is an acceptable solution to problems, might makes right, etc etc. Other criticisms.

-Ted

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[shiftless]

Not anywhere I've gone to school or been in contact with kids in school.

Where's that? Metro Atlanta? Come to rural Alabama, or Mississippi, Tennessee, or anywhere else that has not yet been completely overrun by foreign cultures and Northern immigrants, anywhere that people still talk with a recognizably Southern accent, and you'll see a different picture.

So you want schools to instill a belief system that says violence is the solution to problems?

Oh, please. It's called negative reinforcement. If a student refuses to follow the rules, then he goes out in the hallway, and comes back in a moment later with a sore ass and a renewed sense of respect for the consequences which inevitably follow his actions. The rest of the students, in witnessing this event, are demonstrated that this type of behavior is not tolerated, and as such gain the same benefit without actually having to be paddled themselves. The whole thing is handled in 5 minutes and afterward the class goes on about its business. Simple, effective, and harmless.

I would be furious if I found out a teacher beat my kid.

In recognition that women and effeminate men like yourself might be alarmed by the thought of anyone harming a hair on your little darling's head, pretty much any school will not paddle a kid if his parents send a note desiring otherwise.

You don't see our justice system sentence people to few licks from the paddle, ...

Yes, because a better solution is to put them away in jails and prisons for years at taxpayer expense, wherein they a) get beaten and/or raped by the stronger, i.e. "might makes right", or b) have a good ole time hanging out with their criminal buddies and gaining new contacts in the criminal world, further entrenching them in criminal activity, which is now their sole means of getting by in the world since nobody other than McDonalds will hire them with that criminal record. Yep, it looks like the justice system is the paragon of excellence and the example to be followed when it comes to correcting anti-social and criminal behaviorisms.

What they learn though is the problem...violence is an acceptable solution to problems,...

Only metrosexuals and old women do not recognize that violence is indeed an acceptable solution to some problems. When you're in school and that bully keeps picking on you and won't leave you alone, the solution is knock him on his ass in front of everyone, and I guarantee he won't fuck with you any more--AND neither will anyone else. You'll gain the respect of everyone. What's your solution? Telling the teacher on him and crying about how mean he is? Of course you shouldn't resolve every conflict by beating the hell out of somebody. But when the situation demands it, you need to be prepared to use violence to protect yourself and others.

All this is completely beside the point--this discussion is not even *about* violence. It's about a smart ass kid or troublemaker taking a few licks on the ass from a wooden paddle and having a sore ass for a day. It is THE most effective means of negative reinforcement and that is all. This punishment does NOT in any way promote violence, and it's stupid to think that it does. If anything, there is less violence because people grow up with more respect for their fellow man.

Generally if there is a fight around here, it's because some smart ass kid whose parents spoilt him and never whipped him said some shit he shouldn't have said, to the wrong person, and got called out to the park or other semi-secluded place to defend himself. It usually ends up one of two ways; the smart ass kid gets sent home with his ass whupped, having learnt his lesson, or he refuses to show and everyone calls him a pussy and ostracizes him. Either way he thinks twice before running his mouth again and the world is better off for it. The kids who get paddled in school come out of high school squared away, respectful, and never have a problem in life. The kids wh

Re:What does this PC actually provide them?

[tfoss]

Boy, you're sure doing your part to live up to the stereotypes aren't you?

anywhere else that has not yet been completely overrun by foreign cultures and Northern immigrants

Only metrosexuals and old women do not recognize that violence is indeed an acceptable solution to some problems

it's because some smart ass kid whose parents spoilt him and never whipped him said some shit he shouldn't have said

In recognition that women and effeminate men like yourself

Very pleasant and courteous indeed, with a big helping of open-mindedness and not sexist or homophobic in the slightest.

On to your points:

that violence is indeed an acceptable solution to some problems.

It sure is, just none of the ones you find in schools.

Oh, please. It's called negative reinforcement. If a student refuses to follow the rules, then he goes out in the hallway, and comes back in a moment later with a sore ass and a renewed sense of respect for the consequences which inevitably follow his actions. The rest of the students, in witnessing this event, are demonstrated that this type of behavior is not tolerated, and as such gain the same benefit without actually having to be paddled themselves.

And why do you think beating is the only form of negative reinforcement?

Yes, because a better solution is to put them away in jails and prisons for years at taxpayer expense

Depends on the offense. Usually it is a simple revocation of some rights or financial punishment. Are you suggesting that prison time be replaced with beatings?

When you're in school and that bully keeps picking on you and won't leave you alone, the solution is knock him on his ass in front of everyone, and I guarantee he won't fuck with you any more--AND neither will anyone else. You'll gain the respect of everyone.

Yeah, 'cause I respect only the violent and imposing. It would seem this is the key difference, I don't find personal violence appealing and you apparently do.

But when the situation demands it, you need to be prepared to use violence to protect yourself and others.

I agree. I just don't think some kid being a dick is such a situation.

All this is completely beside the point--this discussion is not even *about* violence.

When you are arguing for the use of corporal punishment, then the discussion is very much about violence, and the normative effects of school-sanctioned violence. If your teacher or principal (or parent, or coach or whichever authority figure you choose) does it, that tells you it is ok.

he refuses to show and everyone calls him a pussy and ostracizes him.

Again with the insistence that physical brutality is to be respected.

The kids who get paddled in school come out of high school squared away, respectful, and never have a problem in life.

I don't know of studies on corporal punishment in schools, but there is a wealth of information about parental corporal punishment. It leads to higher rates of spousal abuse, depression, alcoholism & substance abuse, increased levels of aggression, and lesser degrees of long term obedience. This is a pretty well studied area and is why pretty much all major psychological & pediactric organizations oppose corporal punishment.

The kids whose parents sheltered and coddled them and taught them how wrong violence is and how it's A-OK for you to run your mouth and talk as much shit as you want because we're not gonna stand for our little cuddly-bumpkins to be hurt or threatened

So you really think the only option for dealing with misbehavior is to slap the kid around? Otherwise your statement does not really have any value. Sheltered & coddled to you is apparently only equal to not letting them be physically abused.

What you

alabamais3rdworld tag

[Dracos]

So where will be the next place in the US to get XO's? Mississippi, West Virginia, or El Paso Integrated School District?

Probably not EPISD, they're too busy not giving the kids school lunches ("Nutritional mid-day snack"?) while taking the Federal school lunch program money. Among many other types of incompetence.

Re:" Alabama Schools to be First in US to Get XO..

[Phairdon]

You're right, we don't know what electricity is. The aerospace capital of the U.S. (huntsville, AL) is illuminated by millions of candles. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, and the dozens upon dozens of Aerospace Engineering companies that work on building such things as new fighter jets, helicopters, armored troop vehicles, jet engines, rocket engines, etc. all do their work by candle light. I actually sent this letter by the U.S. mail to my friend in California who typed it up and posted it here for me. (You're welcome).

Two things about determining average grades

[benhocking]

1. The average grade varies from school to school.
2. What you think the average grade in your school is might be quite far off the mark. You're probably judging that off those students that you know, but there's a selection bias at work there. I taught for several years at the same high school that I graduated from. I realized that the impression I had of the school as a student was quite different from the impression I got as a teacher. If you attended a school with less than 500 students, that might not apply to you, but #1 definitely would.

April 15?

[gfxguy]

April 15th, huh? How appropriate. Kids can read or write; send 'em a laptop!

Re:April 15?

[plurgid]

yes, it is a prerequisite for most meaningful computing tasks, including using the internet.
so it makes since to make sure the kids at least know how to read and write before giving them a computer.

Re:This is a first, open source anything for Alaba

[KiranWolf]

If you think this is the first open source project for Alabama, you obviously have never heard of Gaim (now Pidgin) or Asterisk, both of which were started by Mark Spencer (an Auburn grad from Huntsville). Phorum also got its start in Huntsville as well.

Turner, not Down

[tepples]

It is also called Down's laptop, for you biological types out there. You try to make a joke, but you fail it. Down syndrome is trisomy 21. "XO", or monosomy 23, is Turner syndrome. Is Ted involved?

Learnig the basics != doing everything by hand

[mangu]

I remember not being able to use a calculator even in college Calculus classes as the professor thought it made people lazy and dependent on them

In my job I use routinely computers for things like solving differential equations. I know the basics on how this works. I know how algorithms like Runge-Kutta, Adams-Moulton, Bulirsch-Stoer, etc, work. However, I have never done these calculations by hand. What would be the point in that?

What students need to learn is how to get results from the calculations, they need to know which method to use, they need to know if the results make sense. For that, they need to learn the basics, of course, but they do not need to extensive practice in performing basic work.

You're lucky that you and your Calculus professor weren't in a Civil Engineering course, or you would have to dig the minerals, grind, mix, bake, etc, just to get cement.

Re:Newark

[GungaDan]

So you're saying it's got the nappy headed hos thing going for it?

Credit crunch

[tepples]

My own experience, as a kid coming from a poor family but with excellent grades and test scores, getting financial aid was super simple. The situation may have changed. Is it still easy to get a student loan even now, with the credit crunch after the housing bubble?

Re:Credit crunch

[Dan Ost]

When a top school wants a student, they don't depend on loans to make certain the student can attend.

Of the roughly $130k of financial aid that I received over the course of 4 years, only about 20% of that was in loans. The rest was grants, scholarships, and federal work-study. The biggest chunk of that was something the school called a "need-based grant" that came from the school itself which was basically a scholarship the school gave me each year to ensure I could attend. This made up about 50% of my financial aid package from the school.

Re:Credit crunch

[llefler]

There's no reason for the housing market to adversely effect the student loan market. You can get enough federally secured student loans to go to community or state colleges. (and mortgage the next 30 years of your life) If anything was going to effect them, it would be the out of control national debt.

Back when I graduated high school, the problem wasn't a lack of scholarships or loans, it was a lack of information. If you didn't ask about ACT/SAT tests or loans, they didn't provide any info.

Lost or Stolen

[tompaulco]

It's going to suck for those lower income parents having to shell out $200 when their kid loses the laptop or it is stolen. Or is the school going to absorb that cost? The article didn't make it clear, other than that they would disable it.

Re:Lost or Stolen

[Shados]

Well, that happens all the time regardless... when I was younger, I was in a low income family, and I got my books (the ones lent by the school) stolen.

Books. Who steal freagin several years old junior highschool books? But it happened. 250$, and that was a long time ago, so you have to factory it over a decade of inflation...

It hurt like a bitch and it really sucks, but its life, and its nothing new.

Primary school

[tepples]

computer labs are horrible. It takes 10 minutes to get there, 10 minutes back, you loose almost half of the period. That's why universities have a 10 minute gap between classes that start on the hour -- it gives you time to get across campus (or down the hall if you're lucky) to your next class. Maybe you live in Alabama and all your classes are taught in one room by Prof. Cletus Fuckstick, but the rest of the world isn't quite so backwards. This article is not about universities. It is about primary school, up to and including grade 8. Especially in elementary schools (K-5), a given group of 20 students might have only one instructor for most subjects, with just phys ed, art, and music taught by specialists twice a week.

Re:You obviously failed at basic logic ...

[CRCulver]

The classical education has always been about good personal formation just as much as finding a job. As many still today take this as axiomatic, then it follows that reducing the breadth university education is indeed a pity.

Yes to XO laptops; No to dome stadium

[cabalist]

I live in Birmingham, AL and think that it is a great idea to be equipping our children for life in the real world. Mayor Larry Langford's efforts, to this end, should be lauded.

On the other hand, and there is always another hand, this particular instance is a shell game. Birmingham (and sadly Alabama in general) has been the victim of poor leadership and frequent deception. In this case newly elected Mayor Larry Langford, formerly mayor of a nearby, poorer, decaying locality, rented an apartment in Birmingham (but never lived there) in order to become eligible to be elected in Birmingham as mayor. He has been pushing a dome stadium for years (10+) believing that he can attract a professional football team(never NFL, mind you) and turn Birmingham, AL into a tourist attraction.

In order to do this he wants to raise sales taxes on everything (food and necessities included). This is a regressive tax on the poor and uneducated who will not enjoy the fruits (if there are any fruits) of their taxation.

He has been trying to pass this for years and now he thinks he has it.

Birmingham cannot let him distract them with the XO laptops under the right shell when there is a dangerous, expensive, disasterous dome stadium under the other one.

Laptops=good idea
Dome stadium/Birmingham as a tourist destination=WTF???

cabalist

Re:Yes to XO laptops; No to dome stadium

[twistedcubic]

So what in Fairfield is "decaying"? Anyway, that ploy he did with renting an apt in Bham is not new. He'll probably get away with it if it goes to court. The idea of getting an NFL team or an airline hub to raise a city's value is silly, though. Enjoy you 10% sales tax :) I live in Los Angeles now, but I was home for the holidays and people in my family were talking about that stuff.

Re:Yes to XO laptops; No to dome stadium

[pelviselvis]

it was already taken to court... the judge basically said cooper's case (the challenger) had merit, but it should have been brought up before the election.

as far as fairfield goes, i encourage you to read this article on langford

i live three blocks from where langford was renting. it was an open secret that he didn't actually live there, but was using it to get elected. he lied when he filled out his voter registration saying it was his main residence, when every other piece of evidence showed he still lives in fairfield.

Re:Yes to XO laptops; No to dome stadium

[reboot246]

I live in Pinson (just outside B'ham), and I don't think Larry Langford's ideas are the ones Birmingham needs. Downtown is mostly a ghost town and Birmingham has been losing one business after another for years. So his increase in the sales tax and doubling business licenses are the exact opposite of what he should do. I would say that my days of buying anything in Birmingham are over, but those days really ended years ago. I think a lot of people have given up on the city.

It's a shame. Birmingham could be a great city. The people are some of the finest in the country. They deserve better than a flim-flam man like Larry Langford.

Re:I Live In B'ham

[nuzak]

> What they really need is old fashioned from the book teaching and a lot of discipline.

Yeah because the gee-wiz high-tech approach of an Alabama education has really been a disaster compared to the intellectual dynamo created by its current approach.

Don't laugh at Alabama.

[PHAEDRU5]

Airbus is about to start manufacturing aircraft in Alabama. ThyssenKrupp is well established. Mercedes makes cars their.

I was stationed in Alabama for a year. While there, I had a world-class Shakespearean theater at my back door. I loved living in Alabama.

Re:Don't laugh at Alabama.

[Nimey]

Mercedes makes cars their. Because the German engineers won't feel bad about not having perfect English?

Re:Don't laugh at Alabama.

[Chris Burke]

I was stationed in Alabama for a year. While there, I had a world-class Shakespearean theater at my back door.

That sounds neat, but I would think the novelty would wear off after a month of non-stop Hamlet recitals. Didn't they have anywhere better to go? Or are world-class Shakespearean theater troupes so common you have them just living on the streets? If so, I hope you left them some sandwiches.

Re:Don't laugh at Alabama.

[twistedcubic]

The Shakespeare Festival doesn't just run Shakespeare plays. That's just the name of the theater. I remember seeing Cat on a Hot Tin Roof there when I was in high school. When I moved away from the South, I was disappointed by all the silly ignorant comments made by people who I would have otherwise respected. The wonderful thing is that if I moved back I would have an easy time finding jobs in my field because most of the ignorant non-Southerners wouldn't consider living there. So now when I hear stupid comments, I ignore them. I just think about how clean and pure things will be when I move back.

Re:Don't laugh at Alabama.

[keefus_a]

Just an interesting little bit of trivia. If you've ever been, or go, to Stratford-upon-Avon (Shakespeare's birthplace), the swans (or some of them at least) come from a town in Alabama. The Royal Shakespeare Festival in Montgomery get their swans there as well.

And if you've never been, and find yourself with the opportunity to go, it's worth the experience to go to a bakery and get some bread and walk along the river. It's a beautiful area and the reaction you get from the "aquatic fowl" when they see bread is frightening.

Re:Don't laugh at Alabama.

[Chris Burke]

It was a joke more about them being literally at his back door than only playing shakespeare, and apparently a pretty terrible joke as well. Oh, and it also had nothing to do with Alabama. HAND.

The past ain't what it used to be

[westlake]

Just compare the rigour of an undergraduate education a half-century ago to the situation now where anyone (even me) can breeze through four years without a challenge

1957.

Less than ten years after the GI Bill opened up post-secondary education to a broad spectrum of the [white, male] middle class.

What makes you think that undergraduate education in the fifties was all that demanding outside a handful of elite colleges and universities? There wasn't much of a foundation on which to build.

"[T]wo qualities common to educational reformers since World War II: nostalgia and amnesia.
They look back through a haze to some imagined golden era of American education when we were "a nation of learners.." What Happened to America's Public Schools?

I, for one, welcome...

[TheDarkener]

Our XO laptop Alabamalords!

Just kidding. But aside from all of the complaints about this here (which I don't quite understand), wouldn't everyone agree that HAVING a laptop is better than NOT having a laptop? Wouldn't we all be able to agree that having access to a global Internet community is better than NOT having it? We are allowing more and more human beings to tap into a collective grid, to exchange ideas, thoughts and knowledge. I have no idea how some could see this as bad or unnecessary.

Re:I, for one, welcome...

[cabalist]

I understand your point: laptop is better than no laptop.

Agreed, but...

"All politics are local"

Thanks, Goethe.

And he was right. While the laptops are better than no laptops how much will they really cost? What infrastructure will they need (support staff, etc.) , and its cost? What else comes with the laptops (i.e. a worthless windmill, I mean dome stadium)? And finally will they deliver?

All of these duties will be spun out to over-bidding, under-delivering lackeys that are beholden to Mayor Larry Langford. This project is not to help children or students, but to enrich compatriots of Mayor Langford and provide a distraction from a boondoggle designed to even further enrich the mayor and his same entourage.

I know that politics everywhere are considered corrupt, but seriously, Birmingham must be at the top of that list, or near it at least.

cabalist

Re:I, for one, welcome...

[TheDarkener]

Why would you consider that the deal is sour? I'm sure the people making this deal are at least a bit aware of what the laptops will require as far as support, infrastructure, etc... If my mom can set up a wireless AP, I'm sure an IT guy in Alabama can. I mean, seriously.

Giving laptops to kids for education == GOOD. Being skeptical due to political reasons == GOOD too, but I think, in this case, there's not a whole lot to be skeptical over. We're talking about education, not voting machines.

Ha!

[PHAEDRU5]

Smartass!

I've got the 'flu, I'm chugging nyquil, and /. is competing with LOTR on my DVD. Please forgive teh slip.

(And yes, the "teh" was intentional.)

I refer you to my "Ha!" comment...

[PHAEDRU5]

...of some moments ago.

Ditto that.

[Peter Trepan]

Some areas of Alabama have among the nation's highest income to cost-of-living ratios. Huntsville has the nation's highest concentration of engineers and PhDs. Birmingham attracts surgeons and medical researchers from all over the world. They may be transplants, but they're here now, and they're unlikely to leave.

Sometimes the (conservative) politics and (evangelical) religion get me down, but the conservatism of the South doesn't necessarily mean Bush conservatism, and Southern Baptism is more often inherited than converted to. The vast majority of suburban Alabamians don't give a crap about gay marriage (for instance) one way or another.

The rural Dukes of Hazard wasteland you're probably thinking about can still be found, but only far away from population centers. On the other hand, a native of Greenwich Village would probably feel at home on the Southside of Birmingham as long as they didn't listen to talk radio.

Just wondering...

[sirgoran]

How long will it be before a student hacks their laptop and either makes it dual boot or launches their own DDOS attack against their classmates?

Should we begin the online pool?

-Goran

Taxes

[neosolace]

Just F'n great.... Everywhere that Larry Langford gets himself elected (or cheats his way into), taxes mysteriously start going up. Just a year or two ago he was behind another sales tax increase, and now that he's mayor, he wants to jack 'em up again....just so he can give out freebies and scholarships to kids who aren't doing much more than "showing up to class". He's also cranking up the amounts collected on business licenses etc for the purpose of building some idiotic "domed stadium" that the town doesn't need (much less can afford). Now I'm all for helping kids that strive for excellence and hard work...but for C students????? As everyone here so gladly points out, it's not like Alabamians are made of money. Oh, and as for those of you who just love to make fun of us Alabamians/southerners in general... People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!

Re:Taxes

[cabalist]

Seriously!

That's all I'm saying.

cabalist

Lynchings?

[Anonymous Coward]

Talk about a worn out stereotype. statemaster.com defines the lynching statistic cited as Number of total people killed by lynching from 1882 to 1968. Per capita figures expressed per 1 million population.

Hardly relevant or timely but thanks for promoting the racist stereotype.

Re:Lynchings?

[lucas teh geek]

Hardly relevant or timely but thanks for promoting the racist stereotype.

people in alabama are a seperate race?

Re:Lynchings?

[Trogre]

Racist how, exactly? Who ever mentioned race? What's wrong with you?

Would you rather they take a cue from California?

[OMRebel]

California (statemaster.com stats) #1 in Forcible rape #1 in Gonorrhea Cases #1 in Suicides #2 in Cumulative AIDS Cases All Ages #2 in Syphilis Cases #3 in Deaths due to HIV #3 in New AIDS Cases All Ages #4 in Motor vehicle theft (per capita) #4 in Prevalence of Poor Mental Health 2nd to last in Overall Child Health Status The education stats aren't anything to celebrate over either. Yeah, I bet everyone in Alabama wishes they could be as sophisticated as those out West.

That was awfully one-sided.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're just lucky you put it on the internet where nobody from Alabama can see it.

I submit, my liege.

[PHAEDRU5]

You're a lot smarter than me.

On an up-note, I'd encourage you to relocate to Alabama. You'd find a lot of peers there.

Shakespeare a your back door....

[PHAEDRU5]

Well, thing was, not only did they do Shakespeare, they had actually heard of *other* playwrights.

Yes, I know, completely shocking, but there you are. I mean, I got to hear about some guy called Ibsen, and another guy called The Idiot, but I may be getting my plays mixed up.

After all, I was in Alabama.

Re:Shakespeare a your back door....

[Chris Burke]

The joke was more about them performing outside your back door all year, not so much about their selection...

Re:Newark

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Yeah, it couldn't possibly be a jibe at the racist guy. For, I dunno, being racist or something.

Re:Would you rather they take a cue from Californi

[jeremymiles]

Let's start very, very basic.

California has more people.
California has more forcible rape, cars, whisky bought, etc etc etc. That's why, when people make comparisons, they use the per capita rate. That's the rate per person.
You'll notice, if you check that California comes 37th, as opposed to Alabama's 18th.

Huntsville

[eeek77]

Pal, you live in Huntsville, not Alabama. Kidding. I live in Trussville. I have a lot of respect for Huntsville - it's a beautiful city. Downtown is very clean and there is literally NOTHING like the Space and Rocket Center.

Re:Troll?

[Phase Shifter]

Amazing, they can't read but get mod points? What, /. now available in pictograms? The only thing they can do well is surrender. =) /Yup, you know it: I'm from Massachusetts. You mean the state where a few blinking lights can shut down an entire city?

I'm so impressed. Why surrender when we could invade your state with a Christmas tree and win?

Re:Would you rather they take a cue from Californi

[bogjobber]

You need to look at the rates there genius, not the overall number. Of course California is going to be higher than all the others, they have more people! In rape, gonorrhea, suicides, AIDS cases, syphilis, HIV deaths, and new AIDS cases California ranks middle-of-the-pack to near the top when you look at the per capita rates. Other than motor vehicle theft (California has by far the most vehicles per capita so no surprise there) I couldn't find the other stats so I don't know. But if you're honestly arguing that the deep south doesn't have a problem with health and education, you're crazy. And for the record I don't live in California, and in general I really dislike California.

wintel baiting

[mevets]

It may be bait - make this announcement and wait for intel+microsoft to rescue them in a display of patriotic fervour.

Re:Would you rather they take a cue from Californi

[jx100]

A number of those don't seem to be per capita. In which case it's only natural for California to be the most, as it is the most populous state.

Birmingham's Mayor is a joke

[pelviselvis]

i highly recommend reading this article... an article on larry langford's past by our local alt weekly political writer langford bankrupted his last city he was mayor of... he wasn't even truly a resident of birmingham when he was running for mayor. he has two investigations looking into his previous actions right now... if i were olpc, i wouldn't have anything to do with this man. he has big visions and not much follow through, other than bankrupting whatever he touches. i hope this won't be an egg in their face when it fails. i would specifically read about his previous political computer endeavours with "computer help for kids." it's a company he was running with richard scrushy (his wiki entry), the man in jail now for bribing our democratic governor and bankrupting healthsouth. there's some good info on it in that first article... it's why he's being investigated. and alabama isn't as bad as ya'll make it out to be... at least not the metropolitan areas. it is considered third world once you get down in the black belt in the western side of the state.

Hey, don't forget WV, AR, MS, LA, and OK

[Ranger]

Those other third world states need some of them XO's too.

Probably what will happen is that they'll get hollowed out and the third-graders will use them to haul their crystal meth in. And drug dealers if stopped can pose as distributors and say those laptops are for the children. Won't someone think of the children?

Re:Would you rather they take a cue from Californi

[tfoss]

#1 in Forcible rape #1 in Gonorrhea Cases #1 in Suicides #2 in Cumulative AIDS Cases All Ages #2 in Syphilis Cases #3 in Deaths due to HIV #3 in New AIDS Cases All Ages #4 All those reflect the fact that CA has more people than any other state. Look at the per capita ranks:

#37 Foricble rape

#32 Gonorrhea

#42 Suicide

#8 AIDS cases (which correlates highly with %urban areas)

#13 Syphilis Rate (AL is #12)

No rate data for total HIV deaths.

Poor Mental Health is a self-report statistic (AL is #12) & CA is #43 in serious mental illness per capita (AL is #16).

And, btw I do not live in CA.

-Ted

Reminds me of the line from "Annie Hall" ...

[timothy]

"At the moment it's just a notion, but with a bit of backing I think I could turn it into a concept, and then an idea. ..."

Until a check is signed, or maybe until I can reach my hand into the wound of a crucified kid-with-XO, I wouldn't count on it.

I do *hope* this happens, and it's clearly not impossible to find systems with laptop-per-kid schemes (like Maine), but this one is couched in such vagaries I'd rather not say much about it at all, until / unless purchase orders are completed, notarized, dabbed with the blood of a majority of councilmen (or whatever body), and on display both to the in-person public and online.

timothy

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Jelly

[cehjohnson]

If a computer is lost, the school system can disable it, rendering it useless, Langford said. Great that they've evidently implemented that with such finality, but isn't using remotely-controlled explosives a little dangerous?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

April 15th will be too late

[lynx_user_abroad]

The City Council has not yet approved the funding. The rugged, waterproof computers will be distributed to students on April 15, Langford said, and children will be allowed to take them home.

I'm planning to have XO's in the hands of every student at my school (Oak Hill Academy; central North Carolina) outfitted by the end of this year.

I might buy that Birmingham will be doing the first large scale public school deployment (Go Birmingham!!) in the U. S. but not the first U. S. students.

Re:Would you rather they take a cue from Californi

[shiftless]

The deep south doesn't have any more problem with education or health than any other area of the country.

And while we're "looking at the rates there genius, LOL!!1" how about looking at some of the rates the original post listed. #5 in Lynchings? How many lynchings occurred in Alabama last year or even last decade? Maybe one or two? How many gang killings or mob hits occurred in New York City alone last year? Percent below poverty level and income per capita--fascinating, but do these account for the fact that the cost of living in Alabama is amongst the LOWEST in the nation? How about land taxes? I own 90 acres of land here in Alabama, guess how much I paid in taxes last year? As I recall it was in the neighborhood of $250. And as I recall, there was widespread discontent and anger because the taxes went UP significantly from where they USED to be.

I can sit here and go through every single statistic posted and point out the flaws in it, but I shouldn't have to-- I thought you sophisticated, educated, and intelligent Northern and West Coast folks were supposed to know that there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics"? Guess the "46th in Bachelor's Degree Percentage" doesn't mean so damn much after all.

Re:Would you rather they take a cue from Californi

[bogjobber]

Percent below poverty level and income per capita--fascinating, but do these account for the fact that the cost of living in Alabama is amongst the LOWEST in the nation?

Yes, poverty level takes into account cost of living.

I can sit here and go through every single statistic posted and point out the flaws in it, but I shouldn't have to-- I thought you sophisticated, educated, and intelligent Northern and West Coast folks were supposed to know that there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics"?

I don't know why you think I'm ragging on Alabama, I've been there and it's mostly good, especially when compared to neighboring states. You have some excellent schools and some beautiful land. I wasn't there for long but the people seemed very friendly. But statistically it is significantly poorer, less educated, and less healthy than most states, which is common for the Deep South. For example, from the original poster, Alabama ranks #1 in diabetes cases per capita, #7 in obestity, and 46th in the percentage of people that have bachelor's degrees. Those are facts, whether or not you want to recognize them. There's no massaging statistics, those are simple numerical measurements. If you would like to point out the flaws in any of those statistics I am more than happy to listen.

And for the record, not that it should matter at all, I'm from Colorado. If you don't think there's a difference between a 14% obesity rate and 24% obesity rate, or 8.9% of the population having diabetes vs. 4.9%, or having 9 deaths per 1,000 births vs. 6, or having 36% of the population with bachelor or better degrees vs. 22% you're absolutely insane. Those are massive differences.