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Dutch ODF Plan Could Sideline Microsoft
Yeti7226 sends word of a discussion coming up Wednesday in the parliament of The Netherlands that could result in mandated use of Open Document Format at government agencies there. If the plan is enacted, public-sector organizations, as well as the government, would have to transition to using ODF by 2010. Microsoft Netherlands has lobbied hard against the provision. Backers say it doesn't exclude Microsoft, because ODF can be produced out of MS Office via the use of plugins. A funder of the OpenDoc Society invited Microsoft to join that organization, saying: "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."
The Dutch devision of OpenStreetMap also send in a letter to the commission about the need for Open/Free Data. Standards are important, but the reuse of existing government work is too.
Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
... which actually makes it very much about Microsoft, since they have purposefully done so much to ensure precisely the opposite. Planned obsolescence and crufty undocumented file formats are perfectly in Microsoft's favor as a means of forcing MS Office users to pay the upgrade tax every few years, regardless of whether the new Office versions include any compelling new functionality, what with older versions suddenly no longer able to read the "same" .doc file format produced by the newer versions. With ODF, we know what we're getting -- and that's what scares the pants of Microsoft.
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
MSFT countered saying that it has nothing against its users ensuring perpetual availability of their data residing in their machines and it would gladly join the organization if Microsoft's right to perpetual profits could be guaranteed.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
How likely is it that these people have figured out that ODF pushes Microsoft's buttons and are using it to secure better deals?
I for one salute the new Document Format overlords ;-)
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
The article title talks about getting rid of Microsoft but it's really about doing the right thing to serve the people. The article content has nothing to do with the title. There's no need for a title like this. I hate to see this nonsense. It diverts from what really matters.
Governments *MUST* do this. Public documents are public domain, not Microsoft's (or any other company's) hostage.
We need to continue to have articles posted (even though they get old sometimes) here that push these issues and lay them out for people because they are so important.
Fresh horses and more whiskey for my men.
It *IS* all about Microsoft.
I say this jokingly, but also quite seriously. Jokingly because technically, it isn't about Microsoft... it could easily have been about Word Perfect if they were still the dominator in document formats. Truly, it is about perpetual access to data through the used of non-proprietary and fully documented formats. "ODF" isn't here to stay... it might last another 10, maybe 20 years at most before something far superior comes along. But ODF is fully documented and could be translated into whatever the next great format standard will be.
But seriously, it *IS* about Microsoft because Microsoft has lost the trust of their users and customers. They have done this with amazingly consistent and persistent erosion. With every new release, with every security problem, with every denial, with every DRM addition, with every copyright protection service, with every Genuine Advantage(r), with every BSA audit, with every criminal conviction, with every attempt to evade or forestall punishment, with every shameless act for which they have become quite notorious in the IT community... the ignorant public has started to notice what upsets their nerds ever so much. And now they are starting to re-think the way they store their data because at any moment, they want to be able to change their operating platform. They trusted Microsoft for at least the past 10 years with their operating systems, applications and data. Microsoft had their, our and even my personal trust for quite some time. The trust is gone or disappearing and now people are taking action.
And is it really the best way for Microsoft to handle this problem? I mean to lobby and complain? Why not attempt to save their business by changing their course and direction!? What is so bad about change?! Is actual competition too much for Microsoft to handle? Can't they just make a "better product" instead of playing all of these government games?
Perhaps the Microsoft apologists would care to suggest a possible reason why they can just serve the interests of their customers rather than fighting to save their business model? The customer wants ODF. Why shouldn't Microsoft provide that to them?
Deleted
Mass. tried to do the same thing and they eventually caved in. As a Mass. resident (and something like 10th generation Dutchman) I can only hope that they don't succumb to the pressure like my local lawmakers did.
See, that's the beauty of " Free! " (TM) (c) [Pat. Pend.] [All rights withheld by Microsoft, 2007] -- you can " Freely! " make anything equal anything else! What convenience, what ease of use, what utility! A few examples: Winter is the new summer, Stay the course, Up is down, Copyright is good for the consumer! Rinsema is simply worried that not enough people know about this Fantastic! New! Opportunity!, and is trying to make sure everyone knows that " Free! " is actually equal to $130 or whatever MS Office sells for.
It's all perfectly logical, really.
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
It's nothing like photoshop at all.
And as for OpenOffice...
Well woord processing software has looked that way for many years now, back as far as the mid 90s when I started. What do you want? How different can it be and still be a WYSIWYG document editor?
So what's preventing you from freeing yourself from proprietary software? Certainly not the hardware.
Ethics II Axiom 2. "Man thinks." B. Spinoza
Intitiatives like this one are likely to succeed here because they will be widely seen to make good sense.
There is nothing to prevent Microsoft from being part of the solution. Or it can be part of the precipitate.
Parity: What to do when the weekend comes.
This particular article is probably here because the "Politics" section is oriented towards US politics rather than international, and there is no "Open Source" section (might be a good time to make one or change the "Linux" section).
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
* Step 1: Let a = b.
* Step 2: Then a^2 = ab ,
* Step 3: a^2 + a^2 = a^2 + ab ,
* Step 4: 2a^2 = a^2 + ab ,
* Step 5: 2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 + ab - 2ab ,
* Step 6: and 2a^2 - 2ab = a^2 - ab .
* Step 7: This can be written as 2(a^2 - ab) = 1(a^2 - ab) ,
* Step 8: and canceling the (a^2 - ab) from both sides gives 1=2.
* Step 9: We then subtract 1 from each side which gives us 0=1
* Step 8: then multiplying by x where x is the price of the Microsoft suite you are investing in... you will note that x=0 and thus Microsoft is completely free!
Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
Would be nice if they charge ahead with the hardline, and not only sideLINE but sideSWIPE msoft by cramming their durable balls across ms' face.... Better yet, suffocate ms, cut off THEIR air supply, for a change... Could be a HAIRY, intense experience, ehh? I wonder how much collective mucous ms could generate to get those brave balls out of their nostrils and mouth... Could give "XP" a whole new meaning of "e-X-X-X-Perience"
Nice one: "This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."
I guess my pre-frontal cortex saw "OBstacles" and latched on to (metaphorically) to "testicles" and hence this post-anal-vortex of trash spewing forth...
Now, if only the good name of the Netherlands can be used to put ms into the the never-never land, or "etherland"...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
FYI, Microsoft is whining in the Dutch-language press (Google translation) about how unfair to them this all is and how disadvantaged they would be if the government used open standards.
What was preventing me was the fact that I've never heard of it before. Thanks for the information! I intend to go home and put it on my iPod and kiss iTunes goodbye. I'd tried GTKPod, but hadn't really loved it, and iPod linux doesn't support my generation. I love the feeling I get when I can delete Apple programs from my computer... :-)
Fear the penguin.
I love your sig. Nothing screams "I'm an annoying zealot" like that dollar sign.
While leaving, don't forget to pick up a brochure explaining how to convince your boss to pay for the upgrade.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
Mmm. I posted this story as well, hours ago - but I also posted links and the Microsoft Netherlands reaction. Not sure I want to repeat all that, so I hope someone approves the post.
if not, I shall see if I can re-write it.
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
Can't do that in ODF.
That's why MS is shitting their pants.
Look at the crap they pulled trying to get their "standard" approved by ISO.
Mass. tried to do the same thing and they eventually caved in. As a Mass. resident (and something like 10th generation Dutchman) I can only hope that they don't succumb to the pressure like my local lawmakers did.
Local law man was bribed. No kidding. But it does make a nice government controlled monopoly.
Telephones won't work if different vendors don't agree on exacting standards. Roads would not work, nor would rail if not for exacting standards.
But Microsoft does view themselves above the law, take anti-trust and bundling. Prime examples of how far Microsoft is into the politics of market manipulation, price fixing and discrimination, bribery etc. $1B anti-Linux budget is anti-competitive. My, the US can't enforce their own laws on price discrimination when some countries get full office with windows for $25.
There is a reason most new code today is written outside of the US. Think about it when you vote. Remember, NSAKey wants you.
Here's one and another one here
Cowon and Iriver have supported Ogg Vorbis for a while now. There are other models from Cowon and Iriver (different capacity, larger/smaller screen, different form factors, Drive/flash based) if these are not to your liking. I have the Iriver X20 and get better sound quality than out of latest generation ipod (I will admit that the trade off is battery life, I only get 10 hours). For Linux compatible MP3 player's the thing to look for is MSC (Mass Storage Class) functionality which tells the device to act like a flash disk that you can copy music to and the device builds its own library when the device is disconnected rather than have itunes do it when it is connected.
Just remember that these are not "ipod clones" but rather drastically different mp3 players. For the most part you will find great improvements (not locked to itunes, better controls and UI) over ipods. Compared to Irivers, ipods are expensive and annoying to use.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
You know how I know there isn't a God? Because this Rinsema fellow isn't a blackened and charred remnant of a human, struck down for blatant lying.
OOXML looks less likely than ever to become a standard, particularly after the embarassments over Microsoft's mutilation of an international standards body. And even if it were on track, why should it be treated as an open standard when it isn't.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
"This plan is not about Microsoft, it's about ensuring the perpetual availability of data without any obstacles."
But Microsoft is against perpetual availability of data without any obstacles. That's the issue. So what can you do? DO NOT USE Microsoft Windows as a protest. Switch to Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Sun OpenSolaris, etc. You have a choice. Don't support evil deeds.
it all depends on if they have user accessibility laws like MA does. If they do ODF is sunk there too.
Thanks; I do appreciate the shopping advice. I've been looking for a good player supporting the kind of drag-drop functionality that you described but had never gotten around to really searching for one. I may just have to go out and buy one.
Fear the penguin.
Presumably the government would buy their office package with some sort of support contract.
[q]it all depends on if they have user accessibility laws like MA does. If they do ODF is sunk there too.[/q]
How so? ODF version 1.1 (the current version) includes accessibility requirements. In fact, including accessibility requirements was the primary reason for updating from the original ODF version 1.0. Look it up if you don't believe it.
Sounds almost as if MS was certain that Optionally-Open XML will be approved as open standard by the ISO. Which is ridiculous at the very least, let ISO drop all their reputation and approve an standard for something there already is an standard for! I guess next we'll see other industry's leaders doing the same to have fair standard competition and use ECMA and lobbying to push their own standards to replace other established standards in the name of freedom of choice...
Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
Although approval of OpenXML as an open standard is pending, Rinsema argued that the format should be treated as an equal alternative to ODF.
But as long as OOXML is not approved an open standard, it's not officially an open standard.
I read TFA, and I must say I'm surprised at MSs reaction. They seem to me to be genuinely terrified about this. Instead of making a plugin for ODF they go crying about how many jobs this would cost and what not. Amazing. Why do they do that?
-- Cheers!
As always, do some research on the product before you buy it.
I used to think ipods were pretty good before I found an old creative on special (caveat emptor: creatives are crap now, they have gone down the windows-only, 3rd party software path called MTP) and haven't even looked at an ipod since (well OK... I have compared prices and they were almost always more expensive).
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I'll hold my cheers until the government actually starts _using_ open formats.
There is also an approved motion, filed in 2002, that "requests the government to ensure that, by 2006, all software used in the public sector complies with open standards" (full (dutch) text of the motion).
This is what we want. This is what we _should_ have. It's outrageous for a government to force us to deal with prorprietary formats.
Furthermore, the motion expresses concern about the cost of the government using proprietary software that uses proprietary formats, and requests that the government "stimulate the adoption and development of open-source software in the public sector".
Regardless, the (previous) government inked a $$$ deal with Microsoft, apparently without even considering alternatives. I do some work for government agencies, and Windows is everywhere. Having said that, Linux is, too. I don't know about document formats they use for interacting with citizens; they always give me paper forms. But in my communications with them, it's Outlook and MS Word and Excel.
It's now 2007, one year past the target of the motion, and there's a long way to go still.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
libmtp, it's not perfect but it's already used with Amarok :)
This almost makes the government here in the Netherlands look progressive. Of course, they're still a bunch of war-mongering morons at best, slavish vassals of the US at worst, but now, at least, they'll write their "Please Mr. Bush, tell us what to do next" letters in an open format.
If you cannot attack his viewpoints you can always attack himself... Nice try.
First, this isn't about bashing Microsoft. Second, don't suggest Microsoft isn't opposing this to keep their profit as high as possible.
Being Dutch I can tell you that it will be highly unlikely that something like what happened in Mass. takes place here in NL. The whole structure of our political system is based on cooperation, on finding the right compromise that works best for the largest group of people, without ignoring minorities.
We've got legalised euthanasia: if someone really wants to die because he faces very strong suffering with no way out, our society gives him the right to let him die in a humane way. Even the christian parties in our government do not try to roll this back.
If you want to smoke pot, hey, no problemo.
Gay marriage: why not? Abortion? yes: under the right circumstances.
Prostitution is also legal; allows for better regulation, less health issues and last but not least: taxation :-). You actually put money in the treasure chest here if you visit a prostitute.
The crux of this all: our political system is more focussed on getting our society to work better. There will be prostitution whatever you do, so its better to legalise and regulate. There were cases of euthanasia and abortion before our laws permitted it, so again better to regulate. Pot, idem. Over here we do not only implement the stuff lobbyists would like; we have no legalised system of bribes here, ehhm, in the US they are called 'campaign contributions' I believe. Also we do not have a winner-takes-all 2 political party system; anyone can start a political party and be elected in our parliament. There is even one seat for the 'Animal Rights Party' right now.
So in this case common sence prevails again: there is simply no way anyone can seriously state that it is better to have all of our documents unreadable in 10, 20, 50 whatever years time. There is also no way that someone can seriously state that you must use products from 1 (even foreign) company in order to communicate with each other. Fortunately our politicians see this also, so the chanches of this getting a Mass. handling are quite small, since there is little incentive to cater to the wishes of some convicted foreign monopolist.
Wenn ist das Nunstueck git und Slotermeyer? Ja! Beiherhund das Oder die Flipperwaldt gersput.
This only shows the lie that what M$ is trying to do is to prevent the competition from competeing on a level playing field on what M$ considers to be territory that it owns.
And just how does using Microsoft products and document formats not "discriminate against" all other vendors?
The arrogance is breathtaking, if not entirely surprising.
At the risk of sliding off into OT territory, some points made about the Dutch political system probably need clarification. The Dutch consider their liberal party VVD to represent a conservative or capitalist point of view and do not view them as left wing or bleeding heart; quite the opposite. Our 'liberals' would likely vote Republican in the States.
Mrs Kroes, the commissioner who made MS bleed, is all the more effective as an antitrust fighter because she knows from past experience how board rooms operate. Apparently, it is possible to be a capitalist and believe that corporations should behave properly.
I agree that our system, imperfect though it may be, seems to at least resemble something like a democracy.
According to Microsoft the government is imposing unnecessary restrictions on itself as the ODF standard is still hardly used. Users of Microsoft software will have to look to third party software to read the format, thereby acting to exclude Microsoft from the process. Microsoft also critcises the use of open source software as this imposes restrictions on the commercial developement process...
Microsoft hekelt belied open standaarden
davecb5620@gmail.com
When someone sends me data in a closed format. I ask for them to provide me with a copy of the software. When I send them open office docs. I can give them a link to software they can down load and use for free. Problem solved. For all but the total losers.
The choice of ODF over MSOOXML doesn't "sideline Microsoft" in any way -- they are always free to implement the ODF specification in their product lines, either natively or as a plug-in. THe full ODF specification is avaiable to them.
Instead, this action is directed at their arguably non-open OOXML format.
It's important to make this distinction, as many pro-Microsoft advocates take the position that a vote for ODF is a direct attempt to remove MS's product lines from the marketplace, and that simply isn't true.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
There's nothing wrong with steps 5 and 6. Of course you can compare zero with zero. The fallacy is step 8, which divides by zero. The result of dividing something by zero is undefined.
OOXML looks less likely than ever to become a standard, particularly after the embarassments over Microsoft's mutilation of an international standards body.
OOXML is virtually certain to become an ISO standard, thanks to Microsoft's mutilation of what was a valuable international standards body.
If you think Microsoft is deterred by "embarrassment" then you just haven't been paying attention for the last 10 years.
Strange, I did that math in Excel 2007 and keep getting 65535...
This article is more about "Open Standards" then about "Open Source".
And those two are by far not the same. And it should be two different discussions.