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Xbox 360's Jamming Wireless Signals?
WirePosted writes "A report has emerged suggesting the Xbox 360's inbuilt wireless system for communication with wireless controllers and headsets is transmitting over a wide area of the 2.4Ghz spectrum, causing interference to WLAN's and other 2.4Ghz devices."
Oh like we didn't know this was going to happen.
I don't know what other IT guys thought when we found out the Xbox was using 2.4 Ghz for it's controllers, but I laughed out loud!
2.4 Ghz is one of the most badly managed spectrum for consumers. You have phone systems that take out access points, access points that take out phone systems, and no idea at all which of those systems will interact badly with another.
And you can't fix it either! Access points use a static channelization for their transmission, and controllers/phones use spread spectrum. Why is that bad??
It's bad because 2.4 Ghz is radio, carrying digital info, which due to the nature of the produced sign wave results in a signal distortion more commonly known as "bleed over". Without the ability to separate the signals by a large frequency, digital over analog bleeds all over the place. Additionally, spread spectrum ensures the signal will at some point transmit across the whole spectrum.
Add to that the fact that these antenna aren't tuned all that well....
Oh well 2.4 Ghz is a mess. No one likes to talk about it... and companies are still making equipment for 2.4 Ghz.
Caveat Emptor.
Another consultant who stuck it out.
"We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
I would think we would have heard of this problem long before now. There are million of these units and when they are not displaying the red ring of death, you think this problem would be shutting down WLANs worldwide generating numerous WTFs. Microsoft also sells its own USB wireless adapter for the XBOX 360. You think the wireless adapter would be nuked by the wireless controller if this was the case.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Just a little anicdotal evidence but I have a 360 in the same room at my PC which is on wireless and two access points in that room as well. They all work fine at the same time.
Something along the lines of:
(1) Tolerate interference from other devices. (2) .... something else that I forget....
You see, the FCC does not want to have to certify that each and every $3 wireless mouse keeps its emissions within 0.2 KHz of 945.343 MHz at a field strength of no more than 330 microvolts / meter.
Welcome to the Republican Spectrum of the Future.
This reminds me of my stepdad asking me the question, "why does my laptop's wireless connection intermittently fail?" -- there are far too many answers. Phones? TVs? Microwaves? Any wireless toys? Any appliances? Neighbours? Orbital mind-control lasers? And now X-box! You never know what can be kicking you off the network.
I almost miss shoving wires through filthy ducts...
http://www.skullsecurity.org/blog/
This isn't really new news as shown by this article from 2005. It talks about Wal-Mart's problems with some of it's 360 kiosks causing problems with their wireless inventory system.
The ironic part to this is so many people have complained about the xbox wireless losing connection or just working just plain badly. I guess Microsoft didn't think how badly the controlers would interfear with the wifi card for the xbox.
This isn't just a problem for microsoft though it will most likely be a problem with any console that deals with wireless lan access and wireless controllers that both function in the 2.6 spectrum.
TruePunk | Games
I know we're supposed to hate MS and love the competition (and I do), but my wife claims that the Wii is also messing up the WiFi signal to her laptop.
Jamming with AC/DC.. YEAH! fire!
it could come in handy in the battlefield of tech warfare *rolls eyes*
Onda Technology Institute
Even microwave ovens use 2.4G. There are so many different comms using 2.4G it is suprising anything works.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I've got my vonage AP, my wireless router, sitting right next to each other on the shelf just below my 360 in my entertainment cabinet. I have NEVER had any issues. And I'm a *nux guy saying this.
So for justification, the 360 is the only M$ product in my house. 0]
or are you just happy to see me?
A small college is experience problems with their new wireless network equipment in the presence of a few xbox's. however, apparently all over the rest of the country, in huge universities with thousands of xbox 360s... there's no problem whatsoever. the only bit that doesn't fit with this is that they said the IT staff had issues using their bluetooth headsets. now, the only comment i can make on this is that i think they have cheap bluetooth headsets. they said the 360 makes the signal even when its not turned on... just plugged in. i have both a ps3 & 360 virtually one on top of the other (a shelf plus a few inches of space in between) and the ps3's bluetooth controllers work just as fine as they did before i got the 360. so, all in all, i think this is a load of bull. the 360 has been out for way too long for this to not have been noticed. i think something else is screwing with their headsets & wireless network. or maybe its just the wireless network thats screwing with the headsets and they're looking for a scapegoat.
I have two xbox 360's in my living room, mine and my roommate's. We're both using wireless controllers, and I have an access point literally 2 feet away from my roommate's 360, which puts mine about 4 feet away. We never have a problem with the wifi signal, or the controllers. I hate micros~1 as much as the next slashdotter, but this is total fud.
Common sense is not so common.
802.11a?
There's a lot of stuff that operates in this range. From the article itself it merely says: "It's not clear whether the signal disrupts the college's WLAN access points or students' wireless notebooks. There is some anecdotal evidence, however, that it at least affects other radios in the same 2.4GHz band." Basically the article just talks about a 'strange' 2.4GHz signal that they found and didn't know where it came from. Turned out it came from the XBox 360 (and that is admittedly his "best guess"). No evidence or claim in the article that it is interfering with any WLANs, he basically just says they need to do more 'systematic testing' (that is, putting a bunch of 360s in the room to see if they can cause interference).
Nothing to see here...
"And you can't fix it either!
:)
Gee, and here Apple has moved on w/5.8GHz for 802.11n
I don't doubt there is some 2.4Ghz issue with the XBox 360, but this article started to sound way too much like an ad for Meru about half-way through.
I heard that PS3s jam goats abilities to think.
What a load of utter wank. My 360 sits in the same room as my laptop which works wirelessly, my mobile phone and my TV using DVB-T, it doesn't cause problems with anyone.
This is complete and utter unfounded crap, simple as.
Obviously if the Dems had designed it, it would work perfectly and cost you nothing. They would just bill the taxpayers $50 for the $3 mouse, but that money comes from the sky so who cares??
Seriously. Come on.
Ideology breeds Hypocrisy. Just how much is up to you.
MS is teh evil empire and they did this on purpose to screw up your other devices! You are being paid by MS to post this aren't you!? Teh conspeeraseeeess!!!! Aahhhh!
.... something else that I forget....
Well the whole thing says:
This device complies with Part 15 of the FCC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions: (1) this device may not cause harmful interference, and (2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.
The part that you forget is the part says "this device may not cause harmful interference". I'd say that this is pretty relevant.
And people laugh at me for wearing a tin foil hat! YOU AREN'T GETTING MY BRAIN WAVES BILL!!
geek n performer who performs morbid or disgusting acts, as biting off the head of a live chicken
Anyway, GP is right, there is nothing special about an analogue signal that represents a digital signal. Although I'm not sure all equipment would be sending out a sine wave. Is there any reason not to use a square wave?
Look up the XBox 360 and controllers FCC IDs and read up on them. I don't have one so I can't, but I've heard it uses a frequency hopping spread spectrum system. Because of the way the FCC rules are structured, an FHSS system can put a lot more power on a given frequency than a DSSS (802.11b) or OFDM (802.11g) system. They are also required to hop across most of the available spectrum, as the article describes.
Frankly, I want to hear more from college IT people than just the home users who have no problems. I mean when you have multi-floor setups using the 3 non-overlapping channels and over 200 Xbox's You will see a more realistic example of problems. We have seen a few problems here lately and have suspected the Xboxs but have yet to prove it. So how about it? I want to hear from other colleges on what they have seen.
As in most religions, it's the followers that turn people off to the religion. And Mac users are the worst.
My setup:
2 Xbox 360s (one wired, one wireless through ICS on laptop) each with 1 controller
1 2.4GHz Cordless phone (Uniden something or other)
1 Wireless router (WRT54G)
3 Laptops running on 802.11g (Netgear WG511T, Buffalo USB Adapter, Intel PRO Wireless adapter)
I haven't seen a single problem and all network/gaming/phone performance is good to excellent (relatively speaking). Having multiple 2.4Ghz devices in one house can always be problematic. When I used to work retail electronics I had plenty of customers complain about WiFi and phones interrupting each other. Besides, doesn't Bluetooth use a 2.4GHz signal too (and thus, the PS3 controllers)? Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.
I don't know how many Slashdot readers made it to ZendCon this year, but Microsoft had their hand in the event. At night they supplied 4 XBox 360s, each with a pair of wireless controllers and wifi internet, and they were all working properly in the same small room.
If the 360 has problems with wireless interference, I sure didn't see it.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
Come on, man, you're literate. Don't make me sic Bob on you!
A little more on topic - Xbox 360s are made by Microsoft. Microsoft has never ever worked or played well with others. Why is anybody surprised that any MS device would hog bandwidth?
The question should be, why does the FCC let them get away with it? Is it because of incompetent FCC people, coprrupt FCC people, or some other reason?
-mcgrew
(if there are typos it's because I went blind this morning (see the 1st comment to the journal)
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Haha, it's 2.4Ghz. It's a free for all... so, what's the story? The Xbox can spit out all the interference it wants there, within some power envelope.
My WiFi will get wonky once in a while when the neighbours use their microwave. Fortunately, the cordless phone is on the 900Mhz frequency.
The other option, is to get licensed spectrum... but if Microsoft had done that (which is totally unrealistic for the application)... we'd get 10 posts from people saying that "the FCC should be dissolved" because the airwaves are a public resource. Go figure.
Actually the Part 15 regs say that "this device may not cause harmful interference".
we'd get 10 posts from people saying that "the FCC should be dissolved" because the airwaves are a public resourceThey are a public resource. Something needs to exist to manage them. In theory the FCC should manage them in the best interest of the public (in reality.... pffft, but that's another story). Should we dissolve the National Park Service too?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
My 360 is about six inches from my wireless router, and truthfully, our WLAN does disconnect/hiccup/drop speed quite occasionally. Also, as someone is usually playing the 360 when it is on, someone coming into reset the router because of a bad signal is not a rare sight. I am in a large house with a bunch of roommates and moving out soon, so I haven't even bothered to investigate this issue, but it certainly seems like the 360 could be the culprit.
art is science made clear. -cocteau
I've had my 360 since almost the beginning, I still run my home network on 2.4GHz. I also use wireless to connect my xbox to my network. I can put my 360 controller on top of my piece of crap PCMIA card on my old lappy and not have any problems downloading stuff on the 360 OR off my file server. Sure, its slow, but 802.11B sucks.
That's odd, I haven't notic anyt-kzzzt.
Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
jamming wireless signals? typical slashdot "lets hate microsoft and use all the FUD possible as truth" story
portfolio
From the article:So, the XBox is an intentional emitter, and therefore has been tested to meet the FCC rules regarding emissions in the 2.4GHz band. That makes this a non-story. When using unlicensed spectrum, per FCC Part 15 regulations:"Harmful interference" is defined as Note that the "harmful interference" and "interference must be accepted" clauses produce an ambiguity. Any complaint to the FCC would likely result nothing at all happening, since the basic concept is that unlicensed devices will only interfere with each other when they are in close proximity, and therefore it's up to the user, and not the device or its manufacturer, to resolve the problem.
BTW, my license reads "Extra."
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
I have the X360 and PS3 hooked up to a 802.11g hub in the living room which talks to the 802.11g access point in the computer closet. I haven't noticed any performance problems when the X360 is on. Heck, the X360 still downloads demos and what have you faster than the PS3 does (though I suspect this is just PSN's crappy servers).
Honestly, the spectrum is already so polluted (I count 8 APs on a netstumbler scan) that I don't think the controllers are a big deal. And the X360 controllers perform much better than the PS3's wireless bluetooth controllers. I've never seen the X360 controllers lose sync, and the PS3 controllers glitch about once an hour or so, locking up the controls for about 5 seconds while it resyncs (resulting in untold deaths).
I've got an Xbox 360, with a wireless net adaptor for it, plus a laptop using wireless (and the router connecting it all together), and a 2.4ghz cordless phone. All in one bedroom. Haven't noticed any issues with any of it yet (knock on wood).
True, provided that you can prove that a device covered under part 15 was indeed causing actual harmful interference, and not just transmitting as designed. Until amateur radio receives primary allocation status of its section of 2.4GHz, I doubt that any ham would be very successful at kicking a part 15 device off their local airwaves.
Amateur radio has to comply with part 97, and the unlicensed devices have to comply with part 15, but the secondary allocation status for amateur radio (on 2.4GHz) puts the two almost on a level playing field as far as who has the "right" to be transmitting.
It's frustrating, 'cause I don't like relying on wireless. Not that you can't rely on it, I just see it as something that should be used mainly when you can't use wires. But it's been ten months now since I moved into the house and still all the computers rely on wireless...
Bow-ties are cool.
From interview with Ken Creager, Sr. Dir. Strategic Markets, Meru Networks
"We have rogue detection. We determine it's there and don't let that person come in. We go one step further. Once we recognize that the access point is there and it starts to broadcast, we jam the signal. That keeps devices from taking time away polling the access point. I see that guy broadcasting, I'm going to jam the signal so the end devices never see it and can't take up bandwidth."
simply put, meru cheats!!! everyone knows that meru sucks as far as interoperability with other vendors WI-FI devices because of their proprietary mac layer with no interframe delays, etc.
I think that applies to a part 15 devices messing with a non-part 15 device because the rest of the statement reads that a part 15 device must accept any interference.
I've got my 360 right next to my Linksys 802.11g router. I haven't noticed any problems other than the fact that the 360 controller eats batteries like crazy. Of course, if there's enough interference in that channel from my router and the receiver, demodulator circuitry has to work harder on the controller, I guess that's a good explanation. However, I'd think that's not actually the case.
Everybody has to make devices that use the same spectrum, meaning everybody wants to make devices that utilize that spectrum for the sake of cross-compatibility. This would be a non-issue were it not for 99% of home wireless networking hardware supporting b/g exclusively.
I'm looking forward to the IEEE finalizing 802.11n if for no other reason than because I'll finally be able to get 5 GHz access points without paying through the nose for office equipment.
Some of you are going to say... well of course, I've always known that and other's are going to freak out and call their congressman.
WIFI devices are part 15 devices (that is... Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 15) . The basics of this are that ANYONE can create a device that transmits/receives in a given frequency range as long as they keep the power under a certain level. These devices are generally the second users of the spectrum space. Where ham radio crosses WIFI for example... where ham radio is the primary user, if a ham radio signal interrupts a WIFI signal, it's just too bad for the WIFI signal. The ham signal has priority and the WIFI user just has to allow it. On the other hand, a WIFI signal that interrupts a ham in that frequency must cease and desist use of the frequency once notified. In practice, ham radio operators are a accommodating bunch and try to avoid the WIFI frequency ranges so that they don't kill their neighbors WIFI. Radios in that range normally are also using relatively highly direction antennas to limit disruption (and increase range). (Before you start thinking about getting your ham ticket and increasing power to increase range, ham radio does not allow you to encrypt traffic. i.e. no WEP, no WPA)
In addition to ham radio being an issue (and I believe that currently it is a small issue), there are quite a few phones in the 2.4Ghz range. Once, while trying to troubleshoot why we were having WIFI problem in a particular area (the connection was dropping several times an hour), a warehouse worker offered his wireless phone for us to use so that we could speak to someone at the office. You guessed it, the signal promptly dropped when we called the office. There is no recourse for one part 15 user against another part 15 user (as far as I can tell).
WIFI is getting to be important enough to enough people that it needs it's own frequency allocation. No... forcing other devices out of 2.4Ghz wouldn't work well. Getting your neighbors to buy a new phone because theirs is suddenly illegal is going to take a lot of time and money. Yours or the governments (which is still yours, but you don't have as much control over it... that's a different story though). How about it Google? Care to pony up that new 700Mhz range once you purchase it? How about it users? Care to purchase all new WIFI equipment that works on different frequencies?
Considering that the XBox 360 is an internet device and supports gaming over wireless, Microsoft obviously had to design the controllers to play well with wireless signals. And presumably there is some mechanism to prevent two nearby 360's from interfering with each other. But did they anticipate the situation in a college dorm where maybe every other room has a 360? Perhaps there is some critical density of controllers at which whatever algorithm MS is using to avoid collisions breaks down?
I'm typing this connected wirelessly to a 2.4Ghz router that sits within 3 feet of an xbox 360. I've never had the slightest problem with my connection.
Microwave Ovens interfere with wireless too! Consumer grade wireless, being 802.11b/g/n all run on the open 2.4Ghz range. Cordless phones, as I said Microwaves, Wireless cameras etc. all take advantage of this range. If you are wondering why microwaves interfere, it's because 2.45 Ghz is about the frequency that can excite water particles and they do leak to some extent and enough to interfere with your wireless devices. Some personal unofficial testing I have done have shown up to 20% signal degradation within 3 metres of the microwave and access point. Considering I have seen access points placed next to or on top of microwaves, I do tend to get a good chuckle when people complain about signal strength after my advice to move the access point away from the microwave.
If you want a stable wireless setup use 802.11a, there are plenty of channels to choose from (50 or there abouts) and it is much less crowded then the 2.4Ghz range, so their should far less interference.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
I've been having trouble with a 2.4ghz video sender, and there's an xbox360 in the equation too, I wonder if this could be a cause.
Is it possible that Bluetooth only removes channels to prevent interference with other WiFi systems, IF IT CAN SEE THOSE SYSTEMS? I have been experiencing an unexplained reduction in WiFi network performance and/or periodic dropping of my wireless LAN connection for the past month. I suspected outside interference from some neighbor's device. However, my network is running in "stealth" mode with the SSID beacon disabled. I plan to make my network visible, and then see if the problem goes away or the situation at least gets better. I would guess that the Xbox or other Bluetooth type systems can only avoid interfering with those systems that they can "see". It's worth a try! Happy Holidays!
i'm not an engineer, but radio controlled cars use 2.4GHz spread spectrum and they have developed a method which I thought was original, but has solved a lot of problems for that industry. Modern radio gear for RC cars (and boats, planes, etc) uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Spread_Spectrum and use it in such a way that the radio gear is constantly "bandwidth hopping" within the 2.4GHz range. A few manufacturers are battling it out to see who can provide the fastest frequency hopping. Two leaders in the technology are Spektrum (who call their technology DSM, or Digital Spectrum Modulation), and Futaba (who call theirs FASST, or Futaba Advanced Spread Spectrum Technology -- I guess ASS just didn't have the right ring to it ;)
http://www.spektrumrc.com/Articles/Article.aspx?ArticleID=1624
The Futaba link has a bit of info on how theirs works:
http://www.futaba-rc.com/radioaccys/futl8926.html
The reason girls and Windows users don't understand UNIX is because all the documentation is in Man files.
So the 360 controller can screw up a bit with other wireless signal...
Well breaking news for you all:
THE 360 CONSOLE ITSELF causes interference to your wireless signal...
What will we do? i know: sue MS because it's console, when turned up in proximity of my wireless router, cause slowdowns in my connection speed.
Let's go against Sony too, since the PS3 has the same problem... oh and Nintendo too.
Hey, i should go against my neighbor since HIS baby-radio is actually interfering with MY baby-radio (which is true).
Sorry, but i find this entire topic a little like: "Let's pass blame for every little problem in our lives to a giant mega-corporation".
YOU bought a wireless and/or electronic and/or electric device... expect it to cause interference with your other wireless and/or electronic and/or electric. No matter what "band" or "radio signal" or "technology" used, you are, let's say, vastly uninformed (to stay polite) if you think it's not going to cause possible interference with anything.