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The State of Security in MMORPGs

Anonymous writes "Security researchers Greg Hoglund and Gary McGraw poked around in World of Warcraft and other online games, finding vulnerabilities and exploiting the system using online bots and rootkit-like techniques to evade detection. Their adventures in online game security became fodder for the book, Exploiting Online Games. McGraw discussed with securityfocus the state of security in modern video games, cheating and anti-cheating systems, how the market for cheats, exploits, and digital objects is growing, what we could learn from the design of these huge systems, and how game developers react to submissions of security vulnerabilities."

288 comments

  1. From a mainstream publisher by CRCulver · · Score: 0

    For me it is a surprise that the book was published by the mainstream publisher Addison-Wesley. Do they release expect many sales of what initially seems like a shady book?

    1. Re:From a mainstream publisher by kcbanner · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Its not that shady, security by obscurity was never good for anyone. Its not even secure at all.

      --
      Obligatory blog plug: http://www.caseybanner.ca/
    2. Re:From a mainstream publisher by argiedot · · Score: 1

      Do they expect sales of a book about exploiting online games? Oh come on...

      Seriously though, why not? People pay big money for stuff in those games. Sure, the book's probably not going to help the guy who just wants to 'hax gold' in WoW or whatever's the latest fad I'm pretty sure that same fellow would buy it.

    3. Re:From a mainstream publisher by ubrgeek · · Score: 0

      or whatever's the latest fad

      Kids today! Why when I was a kid, we had to hack gold up hill, in Dun Morogh's snow! ;)

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    4. Re:From a mainstream publisher by immcintosh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That depends on what you want to call "shady." He's certainly not done anything illegal from the looks of it. Mind you, it's not illegal (correct me if I'm wrong) to cheat at online games. From what I gathered reading the article, it deals exclusively with client-side hacks/bots and such--feeding incorrect data back to the server, disabling cheat monitoring software that comes with the game, that kind of stuff. Certainly it's in violation of the Terms of Service of the games, but that really doesn't make it "shady" in any meaningful way.

      Obviously, if he had broken into their secured servers, that would be another matter entirely, but from what it seems he did nothing of the sort.

    5. Re:From a mainstream publisher by llefler · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'd just point out that bypassing Blizzard's 'Warden' monitoring software is not against their TOS. Or at least it didn't use to be. They told us how to bypass it after all the furor about privacy concerns over Warden scanning our systems for all running processes.

      Essentially, rather than validating data on their servers, they're pushing an application to the clients to report any process they feel is inappropriate. I personally felt Warden was inappropriate, and never allowed it to run.

      --
      It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman
    6. Re:From a mainstream publisher by gemcigital · · Score: 1

      What immcintosh said. What we did in the book is not illegal as far as we know. I wrote an article about the state of the law and computer security through the lens of MMORPGs for darkreading. Here's a pointer: http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=136128&WT.svl=column1_1 And just for the record, our books do sell pretty well (EOG is off to a fine start), but we do it to help improve the state of software security from the dark ages to the Bronze age. gem http://www.cigital.com/~gem

  2. Game is realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    When in a MMO game you can exploit rules and get an easy way in life of your caracter (evolving) its like some people exploiting laws for profit to get an easy way of life.

    When in a MMO that person gets banned its like people who get caught in real life.

    The more tight the rules/law the harder to exploit them. But making a full proof rule/law system? We dont even have that in real life!!

    1. Re:Game is realistic by Englabenny · · Score: 1

      So please tell me what you do to cheat with the laws of nature

    2. Re:Game is realistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Use a condom?

    3. Re:Game is realistic by PrescriptionWarning · · Score: 1

      I think he's talking about cheating the rules. Sure you can't manifest gold out of thin air, but you can certainly swindle, steal, or otherwise obtain gold/monies by means other than earning it. So yes, in a way, there are laws and consequences to breaking them in real life and in games. The idea here is to make sure that those games have ways to make sure that those who break the "laws" are "punished", because thats the only real way to prevent people from breaking the "law" is the risk of punishment. Cause-effect.

  3. It costs money? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lame article.

  4. My personal feelings.. by faloi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The market for cheats and exploits is so large primarily because of the "make it a grind!" trap that most MMORPGs fall into. If you're into a MMORPG, and you "need" cash for a certain item, or to recoup your costs for the last big raid, or what have you, you seem to get one of two choices. You can grind away whatever playtime you have in order to get the cash legitimately, you can buy it from someone that is grinding away (or perhaps using exploits), or you can turn to exploits/hacks/whatever yourself.

    I understand that some percentage of the playing population is going to cheat, hack, or use an exploit simply because they can. But if game design didn't make it so attractive to so many people to reap the rewards that go along with it, it would be a pretty minor problem. In my opinion, as soon as you're killing the 3,000th slightly different textured mob for his toe...or running a dungeon you could do in your sleep just to make sure a fellow guild members armor is a little bit different color so you have a shot at the next dungeon, MMORPGs start losing some of their fun. I don't know of too many people that really enjoy running things that are on "farm" status, but there's a necessity to grind it out built into the games.

    I know it keeps people hooked longer, but it also keeps the temptation to play...creatively...in people's mind.

    --
    "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
    1. Re:My personal feelings.. by Pojut · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is one of the primary reasons why I like Guild Wars so much. I was a WoW junkie for about a year and a half straight (played in the closed and open betas, bought the game on release day). Switched over to Guild Wars.

      See, with WoW, since I was paying for it, I felt obligated to play it over other games...as a result, I missed out on a LOT of games when they came out. With Guild Wars, however, since there is no monthly fee, I'll log in for a couple hours here, a couple hours there...maybe a grand total of 5-7 hours a week out of my 25-30 hours a week spent playing video games. Since I'm not paying a monthly fee, I feel less like I HAVE to play it and more like I WANT to play it...WoW is a better game IMO, but I like not having that "second-job" feeling.

    2. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you're into a MMORPG, and you "need" cash ... you seem to get one of two choices.
      1) You can grind away whatever playtime you have in order to get the cash legitimately,
      2) you can buy it from someone that is grinding away (or perhaps using exploits), or
      3) you can turn to exploits/hacks/whatever yourself No, wait, I'll come in again. (exit)
      (enter stage left, dramatically)

      NOOOObody expects the Slashish Inquisition! If you're into a MMORPG, and you "need" cash ... you seem to get one of three choices....
    3. Re:My personal feelings.. by qortra · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think you're absolutely right about this. I always dreamed of an MMO that was more focus on player-skill/ingenuity than on the amount of time invested in the particular player. Such a game should passively improve the real-human player by giving him more experience with the gaming system, rather than improving the virtual character by giving him arbitrary levels/gear/money. Such a game would be naturally resistive to exploits and cheats. I would apply the following test to an MMO to see if it meets this qualification;

      Take a player who has played the game for a while, is skilled at the game, and is very successful at completing game objectives. Now, have that player start a new game with a brand new character. He should be able to be somewhat competitive with that new character - not nearly as strong without his old level or gear, but still competitive.

      Of course, there are plenty of caveats. First, I have had difficulty in imagining an RP system that would have such a large emphasis on creativity and intelligence. Second, it is unlikely that many people would actually have interest in such a game. Unfortunately, I think that most people actually like the grind; and even if they don't have the intellect to keep up in a real game, they can gain satisfaction from countless hours hording gear and currency.

    4. Re:My personal feelings.. by ilikepi314 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well what if you could easily and legitimately earn all of that money? Then either (a) everyone would have the same ultra expensive weapons, and so it would be boring anyway, driving some of them to use cheats/hacks/exploits to get better stuff than available, or (b) the game keeps creating better and better stuff for sale that gets more and more expensive and people still use cheats/hacks/exploits to be able to say "I got that item first!".

      To me, MMORPGs have little to do with following a great story; it's mostly about bragging rights with your friends. (Not that everyone feels this way, but I've met enough to realize its a "Look what I can do!" mentality among most of the people that use game exploits.)

      And when bragging rights are involved, people will go to extremes to prove they are better than everyone else. You make it easier for new players to get lots of money, then these other guys will say that's for newbies and hack something else to prove their superiority. I doubt any game constructs will change human nature overnight.

    5. Re:My personal feelings.. by psychicsword · · Score: 1

      I know with Runescape(I was young and it was free) using scripts is a very easy thing to do. Back when I played I would make my own scripts to do the mining and killing for me, there was always the risk of getting caught and banned but it was so easy to just make a new account and start again. I have to say making the scripts was more fun than playing the game in the first place. Also because the game is so simple I bet it wouldn't be too hard to just decompile and hack the game.

    6. Re:My personal feelings.. by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      People rely on the "grinding" aspect because it's the easiest to develop and balance properly. It's a well-worn formula. I do believe that there is some potential for ingenuity in games (and actually have worked a bit on developing a game (Eaku) that strives toward this end, with the idea of user-level scripting controlling actions in a very malleable world), but it's a lot trickier to pull off. Probably the worst idea that I've seen in practice is the one where people create a game world with the intent of it being "an environment for role-playing, not fighting". That almost never works out. Such an environment, if well advertised, will get plenty of people logging in, asking, "How do I attack things?" and leaving when they find that they can't, day in and day out. Even if in the ads you explicitly tell them that it's just for role playing.

      The article touched on game dev reactions to bug reports. I've seen negative reactions to bug reports myself. In one game I was a developer for, I once did a security audit of the code and was appalled at what I found. With almost no effort, I was able to craft an in-game exploit that would wipe the hard drive of every user logged into the game who tried to bring up a URL. I had to push and push to get it fixed. Almost any bug that was security related, they didn't want to address; they were much more afraid of introducing gameplay bugs that might come as a side effect to fixing security bugs, and more afraid of having the schedule slip. Almost none of the strings in the game were checked for length or null termination when operations were done on them. It really disturbed me (and also reinforced to me why game code shouldn't be written in C; at least use C++, people...)

      --
      "99 dead duelists of Dios on the wall. 99 dead duelists of Dios! Take one's ring, pass it around..."
    7. Re:My personal feelings.. by sholden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The grind is the game in a MMORPG.

      RPGs are about 2 things: story, and building the power level of a character to meet some challenge.

      As soon as you add the MMO part the story has to give a bit (there's not just one player (or just one small group) so the player can't be the "chosen one, saviour of the universe" and the game is long term so story is expensive to keep adding to.

      The challenge part also suffers, since there is no end. In a traditional CRPG at some point you win the game. The big evil is defeated by your powered up character and the game is over. The MMO part means that never happens, on and on it goes with the power cap getting raised every so often so that there's more grinding to do.

      And of course people cheat in single player games, there's even more incentive in a multiplayer game...

    8. Re:My personal feelings.. by brkello · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Eh, this is the same tired point that is pulled out every time there is an article about MMORPGs. "Oh, it's the grind that drives people to cheat...if their were only good designers in the world that could make MMORPGs without grinds." The thing is, the best designers in the world are working on these games. People, in fact, play these games because of the grind. They put effort in to something and then they get a reward. This is the same in real life, except the results take much longer before they occur (or may not occur at all). Take any other game and you see it follows the same model in a different form. Geometry Wars you grind until you beat your next high score. Guitar Hero you grind on a song until you can get 5 stars. Etc. etc.

      If you play any game long enough, you are going to get tired of it and want to play another game. That is just being normal.

      As far as cheating goes, some will do it for the challenge. Most of the others will just do it because they want to be better than their friends. It is a competition. It's a dumb place to want to be recognized...but people do it. If people hated the game, they just wouldn't play it anymore. They love the game, they just want an edge over others and will do whatever they can to get there faster. The grind is in everything...just it is just popular to bash it in here since people on here like to bash what other people enjoy instead of actually coming up with anything better.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    9. Re:My personal feelings.. by PhiloBeddoe · · Score: 1

      With a game like WoW, you enter the game *knowing* you're going to have to grind out a character and all the things required to build that character to be the best there is. Compensating for the latest raid means a small amount of "farming" to recoup the money in repairs. Blizz has tried to make it easier to acquire (legit) gold in the game by creating ez-mode "Daily Quests" which can get you 100+g in a relatively short amount of time... daily. That's 5-600g/week, just doing daily quests. A character at lvl 70 can get 2-3000g just by completing all the quests in the other zones. People who haven't the patience to grind the 5000g riding skill, or raid the end game content for the best gear are the ones fortifying the hacks & scammers resolve by buying the gold they sell. Stop buying the gold, the farmers/scammers/cheaters will go away (for the most part).

    10. Re:My personal feelings.. by brkello · · Score: 1

      I totally agree with this. So many games passed me by when I played WoW because I felt like I had to make it worth the time I was spending on it. When I quit WoW, it was a lot of fun to play all the games I had missed out on. Heck, I am still trying to catch up. Of course, now I am addicted to Disgaea so I am doomed.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    11. Re:My personal feelings.. by wallypop86 · · Score: 1

      You'll find a bunch of different types of players in MMO's, though. I've played Everquest for years, and I've found that most high-end players are not good players; they just know how to successfully contribute to their guild/raid with whatever role they are in (healer, tank, DPS, etc). You'll find great players who are not high-end (and I don't mean just level, I mean a high-end progression guild) but have relied on their pure skill to move forward in the game. This is of course opposed to the high-end raider who has the best gear, but no skill, because he bought a level 75 (or now 80) Necro on eBay, and then joined a guild and is quite happy to sit and mana-feed the gimp clerics. (Ever notice you'll very rarely see a "high-end" necro kiting?). Overall I agree with you, but I think that this already takes place in many MMO's, however, it is also still possible for people to be those retards that can't do anything on their own. Its just like real life, you have smart people in crappy jobs, and dumb people in quite important jobs.

    12. Re:My personal feelings.. by spun · · Score: 1

      I've never understood why MMORPGs didn't do stories the way romance novels do. Basically, romance novels are written based on a flowchart. The first kiss comes by page x, first love scene by page y, and so on. Adventure stories are at least as hackneyed. It's all fill in the blanks: "Find the magical _______ that will destroy the evil _______ and save the _________ !"

      "What will we do today, Wheezenerd?"
      "Well, Big Dumb Tank, today we must find the magical rutabaga that will destroy the evil gopher and save the princess' vegetable garden!"

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re:My personal feelings.. by hitmark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      and therefor i go check the micropayment and free to play games listed at:
      www.mmorpg.com ;)

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    14. Re:My personal feelings.. by qortra · · Score: 1

      People rely on the "grinding" aspect because it's the easiest to develop and balance properly. No doubt. If Blizzard can make obscene amounts of cash using this kind of system, why wouldn't they? But now that market penetration of griding-style MMOs is so large, I think there is significantly more opportunity for a niche intellectual-MMO to really stand out - maybe like Eaku (have you posted any information on it yet?).

      and also reinforced to me why game code shouldn't be written in C; at least use C++, people... I've never written game code, but this seems like a no-brainer to me. Honestly, I think that even higher level languages are an even better fit (managed/garbage-collected/etc) in some ways. Certainly, most games really need performance that is largely unavailable with these languages, but not all popular games have to be pretty or state-of-the-art. Also, I assume that servers are often written in a very high-level languages; the guy in this interview seems to be primarily concerned with Java. I strongly suspect that using high-level languages like Java on the server side is already a huge boon to security.
    15. Re:My personal feelings.. by Liquidrage · · Score: 1, Troll

      That's not quite true. Take WoW for example. One could go from 1-70 on nothing but quests (though few do it is an option).

      Most of these quests ignore the fact that other people have done them as well. YOU get to help a night elf learn that owlbears are protectors from the god Elune. YOU get to recover the lost treasure for a dwarf. That isn't even taking into account instances where the *zone* is just you and your group.

      Now, there's no end. But then, traditional D&D didn't have an end either. You were were character just waiting for the next adventure. Death was the end (though some didn't age characters or have perma-death, so it's not really any different).

      EQ your point was spot on. The game was the grind until you got to the end game then the game was gems since you were doing nothing most of the time except waiting in raid groups.
      WoW changed the game back to more how it should be. It did it by ignoring "realness" and making the game more personal. Many of the quests are actually very interesting and unveil the backstory of the world and make you the one.

    16. Re:My personal feelings.. by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People rely on the "grinding" aspect because it's the easiest to develop and balance properly.

      Actually, I think there's a more insidious reason people rely on the grinding aspect: it allows developers to create the strongest reward mechanism; one that leads to behavior most closely related to addiction: random rewards at random intervals. It's convenient that it is the easiest to implement, but one reason we haven't progressed past it (and, in the case of Ultima, regressed to it) is that it is the single best way to keep players coming back for more.

      Sorry for digressing, but that's the one thing that bugs me about most MMOs right now: they are designed as a massive grind fest.
      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    17. Re:My personal feelings.. by jank1887 · · Score: 1

      ummm... they do do stories that way. But they're called quests. And they have no real impact on the game world. And everybody goes through them. and they turn into just one more aspect of 'the grind'.

    18. Re:My personal feelings.. by Deanalator · · Score: 1

      In diablo 2, cheating meant uploading your own characters and items to closed servers due to server vulnerabilities, and abusing holding buffers to dupe items. Sometimes you could also manipulate client side variables that blizzard forgot about to run really fast (yogbuls is my hero!) and things like that.

      When did automation become such a huge sin? The solution is simple. Write scripting into the game so everyone is on the same level, and make characters get tired after a few hours of gameplay. You could even do it at the account level so players don't just rotate characters or whatever.

      It is also helpful to minimise the amount of shit that is excruciatingly boring to do twice. People like me start scripting in games when they become too tedious.

    19. Re:My personal feelings.. by spirit+of+reason · · Score: 1
      There's also much less incentive to cheat in Guild Wars. Achieving the maximum armor level or weapon damage range takes no time at all. The slightly random values of the inscriptions and such don't have a large enough range to make it important that you have the maximum for those. The portion that takes a lot of effort is creating your character's appearance, which is not important, to say the least. Also, guild halls and the improvements that go with them do, but aside from the price of the celestial sigil, it doesn't change much.

      But then... even with all of that, there are still people that sit in faction battles... What can you do besides report them?

      I disagree about WoW being the better game. Certainly GW would be more exciting with persistent worlds and world pvp (GW isn't really an MMORPG per se), it has a much more interesting approach to combat. There's actually a touch of thought involved on the player's part... ;-)

    20. Re:My personal feelings.. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Well what if you could easily and legitimately earn all of that money?


      The problem is not that it's too difficult to "earn" the "money" to get the items, but with the whole paradigm of grinding away for money & stats to get things. In fact, it's not difficult at all. Just time consuming. There isn't any more depth to farming gold in WoW than there is to stringing beads in a costume jewelry factory. And, mind, stringing the beads would get you rewards in WoW significantly faster, even, if you use the goldsellers.

      One thing that might make it more interesting is to do something about the fact that there's no in-game downside to the grind. Smash boars for 30 hours, you gain XP, and gold/hides, but lose nothing but time. If the stats were linked to percentage of time exercising them* instead of total time spent exercising in general, it might be a little bit more interesting. As an added benefit, it would be impossible for anyone to become the uber-everything, but many could become the best-<something specific>.

      *not pure percentage, of course, but weighted for recent activity, "training" modifiers from equipment, skills, location effects, spell effects, astronomical configurations, some kind of interaction between a total XP (higher max stats) and character age modifier (reduced max stats) where you can either have a character run its course to eventually die of old age or take some kind of magical youth restorer, but at the cost of XP and/or skills. And probably a host of other variables which I'm not creative enough to declare, and would turn pure minimaxing into an activity requiring a degree in math.

      They could also improve things by replacing the RNG crafting system with minigames, depending on the items crafted, and which affect the stats (and appearance if the developers are ambitious) of the items crafted. That way, at least, there would be some point to it other than just another tick-mark on the "I'm cool" sheet.

      The point is that increasing play-time by sheer number of operations is easier to program, but players are going to start to look for ways around it pretty quick. From a purely economic point of view, though, WoW has pretty well proven that, at least at the moment, you don't have to go any deeper than that to make billions, as long as you have a relatively clean interface and compelling and vivid visual effects.
      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    21. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's the "grind" that makes people cheat I wonder how they explain, Counterstrike, UT, etc... Those games reek of cheating. Anytime you have a competition there's the desire to be win by any means. baseball and steroids? Trying to blame it on grinding is just bad use of logic. What MMO's have provided that other games did not is an effective way to make "real" money from the game.

    22. Re:My personal feelings.. by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I know they are, but the quests I've seen are hard wired, and that is what I'm suggesting they change. Write generic quests that can be activated at various points, filling in the blanks with relevant details at the time of activation. Everyone gets a different quest.

      Also, with more sim elements in MMORPGs, there could easily be real impact on the game world. Not every quest has to be epic, some could result in minor changes, such as new shops opening up, new cities being founded, factions gaining or losing support, and so forth.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    23. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe that the next evolution of these types of games is to have some of the actions script able. Think lemmings with a little better ai in a RTS setting. Then the games become SIM City like. Code a series of armies. Design some sort of attack plan. Set it in motion and observe the results. If you mix this with some of the units controlled in Real Time I think the possibilities are endless.

    24. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that most people actually like the grind;

      That's not it at all - the magic is that they cannot resist the training that the game is subjecting them to. Grind games are simply virtual Skinner boxes. If a reward pellet comes out of the chute at slightly random, ever-increasing intervals, people will keep pressing the lever. Humans and rats are the same in that regard. The only difference is that eventually, the human says "What the hell am I doing?!?" and quits playing the game. If they're lucky, they still have a family when they finally come to their senses. If not, then they don't.

    25. Re:My personal feelings.. by Sebastopol · · Score: 1

      recouping costs? if your guild can't float repair costs from a raid, you need a new guild. the collective gold contributions from a mature (meaning 'grown up') guild is enormous.

      --
      https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    26. Re:My personal feelings.. by randomaxe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Geometry Wars you grind until you beat your next high score. Guitar Hero you grind on a song until you can get 5 stars. Etc. etc.

      The difference here is that this isn't "grinding", this is practice.

      If you play a song over and over in Guitar Hero, you get better at it, which eventually allows you to get five stars. You, the player actually get better at the game. In most MMORPGS, however, grinding is mere repitition, doing something over and over and over for experience points (or something similar), to improve the game character. The player is no better at the game, the game character is merely powered up.

      Ultimately, these things differ in that the former affects the real world and the latter only affects the game world; if I play a song enough to get five stars in Guitar Hero, I can likely go to someone else's house and five-star it there, too. If I delete my character in an MMORPG, I forever lose all of the progress that was made, and getting a new character back to my old character's level requires going through all of that grinding all over again. While I may have figured out some easy ways to gain experience, I am still no better at the game itself. And really, I don't have to do anything challenging in the course of my grinding, because there is always some simple task (easy battles, for example) that can simply be done over and over to accrue easy experience.

      To this extent, Guitar Hero (and Geometry Wars, and most non-RPGs, really) is no more a "grind" than any other skill-based activity that you do in the real world. Is writing code "grinding"? What about painting? Soldering? Singing? Playing cards? Cooking? Sex?

    27. Re:My personal feelings.. by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Probably the worst idea that I've seen in practice is the one where people create a game world with the intent of it being "an environment for role-playing, not fighting". That almost never works out. Such an environment, if well advertised, will get plenty of people logging in, asking, "How do I attack things?" and leaving when they find that they can't, day in and day out. Even if in the ads you explicitly tell them that it's just for role playing.


      People like to fight. In a pure RP (role play) world, they'll have RP fights, but without game support, it's likely to become a school-boy wankfest. "I shot you!" "No, you missed, loooser". "Yo mamma wears army shoes, you ****head!!". At least with game support, you can tell who shot whom.
      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
    28. Re:My personal feelings.. by Trinsic · · Score: 1

      There is already a MMORPG just like that. Puzzle Pirates has been around for years now. The performance of your character is directly based on the players own skill at the various in-game puzzles. Of course, the more you play the puzzles, the better you get.

      While it doesn't have the popularity of WoW or the other big name MMORPG's, it has been doing well for itself. Come take a look sometime.

    29. Re:My personal feelings.. by goldspider · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are a few major shortcomings (IMHO) that kept me trying, but leaving Guild Wars:

      1. Like you said, lack of persistent world.
      2. Lack of gear diversity.
      3. Lack of solo play options.
      4. Steep learning curve.
      5. No auction/market system whatsoever.

      I found the single player game to be little more than a one-dimensional grind for skills. And without skills, what chance do you have to succeed in PvP?

      I'd like to find a reason to play it again, as visually it is a very impressive game. It will take a lot of convincing, though, to get me to purchase the expansions and give it another shot.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    30. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I understand that some percentage of the playing population is going to cheat, hack, or use an exploit simply because they can. But if game design didn't make it so attractive to so many people to reap the rewards that go along with it, it would be a pretty minor problem.

      Cheating isn't just a problem in MMO's, people do it in all types of games. The MMO grind isn't what leads to cheating, it actually makes cheating less likely. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I wrote an aimbot for the original unreal tournament. :)

      The whole article basically comes down to one thing..."Don't trust the client" which is what any game developer should already know.

      The article uses world of warcraft as an example (as does the book), but cheating in WoW is mostly lame stuff, and the bots aren't nearly as complex as the functionality you'd see in a counter strike or unreal tournament bot, mostly because WoW does have some decent security. The hacks I've actually seen are the AFK bot that people were using up until a few months ago to afk grind honor in the battlegrounds. It was a simple program that ran macros in windows to move your guy around every so often so you wouldn't be flagged as afk.

      I also saw the old teleport bot back when WoW was first released. That was a major screwup on blizzards part, they were storing the players location on the client side, which is dumb. That was fixed pretty quickly.

      The one bot I didn't try out was glider. I hear that one is more complex, as it can power level your character.

      The biggest deterrent to me cheating in WoW or writing cheats for WoW was simply the fact that I could lose all my characters that way. While the price of software and the monthly fee isn't a big deal, losing a character you've invested a lot of time into makes the risk vs reward factor not worth it. In addition, the ethics of cheating in WoW are a bit different. Writing an aimbot for a FPS isn't really a big deal. A dupe exploit in WoW could nearly be considered fraud since people actually buy gold with real money.

      NoClanNeeded {C4E}

    31. Re:My personal feelings.. by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      That's why Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates is probably the most outside-the-box MMO currently in existence. Players get good because they develop skills, rather than using grind-for-experience techniques.

      That, and it is an incredibly social game.

    32. Re:My personal feelings.. by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1
      I think such a mindset is a flaw of the player far more than the game, though. I've honestly never understood those who feel they have to log in to WoW... I go for weeks at a time without logging in, when I do, I have lots of fun. One might argue that I'm wasting money, it's true, but if it's a waste of money, then you should obviously be not spending the money.

      I really feel that "I have to log in to justify my $15/month" is kind of the pinnacle of irrationality. If you're not having fun, don't log in. If you aren't playing enough to justify the subscription, don't pay. Simple as that.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    33. Re:My personal feelings.. by Miaomiao · · Score: 1

      People like to fight. In a pure RP (role play) world, they'll have RP fights, but without game support, it's likely to become a school-boy wankfest. "I shot you!" "No, you missed, loooser". "Yo mamma wears army shoes, you ****head!!". At least with game support, you can tell who shot whom.

      It doesn't work quite that abstractly, every single mmo I've been to that's pure RP (including muds) tends to include a "roll an x number of x sided die" command. So they basically play out similar to an online version of classic kitchen table rpgs. Not everyone uses the same rules, and often situations like that involve talking out out of character what happens.

      Without dice, the above one would go along the lines of "I shoot at you!" "I dodge!" (ooc You've already dodged three times, remember? That's your last one, next time you get hit!) (Oh fine, but you can't make it a lethal shot) (Okok) "I shoot again!" "I get shot in the knee, limping and glowering at you, "Alright I yield!""

      There's still wankers who powerplay, but they quickly get added to ignore lists.

    34. Re:My personal feelings.. by Spellvexit · · Score: 1

      No kidding -- the MMORPG grind scheme is successful, just like it is in gambling. In behavioral psychology, there are various schedules of reinforcement. The schedule most frequently used by casinos and MMORPGs is the "variable ratio schedule," where the subject is rewarded on a random basis for their efforts. In that sense, we're not much more sophisticated than the rats with electrodes inserted into the brain's pleasure centers, pushing levers for a kibble of food.

      There's a nifty chart about the efficacy of these schedules (unfortunately on PDF) here.

      Incidentally, the B.F. Skinner in the article was also the scientist who tried to market a weapons technology to the military involving a homing pigeon housed in the nose of a warhead, pecking at various controls to guide the missile to its target. It was also resistant to jamming, I guess as long as the Nazis didn't strew a nearby target with birdseed. Unfortunately, he didn't get funding.

      --
      The moon may be smaller than the earth, but it's much farther away!
    35. Re:My personal feelings.. by Darinbob · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, Guild Wars is an interesting beast that eliminates a lot of the tendencies to cheat; at least on the PVE side of things (PVP and competition will naturally encourage cheaters).

      I also like Lord of the Rings Online which doesn't have the same emphasis on gear (uber loot) as WoW, and far less PVP (pwners). When the game is about exploring, cooperation, or role playing, the need to cheat just isn't as strong.

    36. Re:My personal feelings.. by Pojut · · Score: 2, Interesting

      See, that's just it though; I LOVED playing WoW. I never logged in while thinking "man, I really don't want to play this." I would venture to say that my time spent playing WoW definitely makes up a large portion of my favourite gaming memories.

      A better way to describe it would be when I would sit down to play something other than WoW, my thoughts drifted towards thinking that I should log in and finish this or that quest, or head to the auction house instead. I felt pulled to it. Playing other games while in the midst of my addiction (and it was, admittedly, an addiction) made me feel like I was wasting my time...after all, playing God of War wasn't gonna put the ore in my backpack:-)

    37. Re:My personal feelings.. by Homr+Zodyssey · · Score: 1

      I haven't played it, but its my understanding that "Pirates of the Burning Sea" has this kind of dynamic.

    38. Re:My personal feelings.. by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it's the "grind" that makes people cheat I wonder how they explain, Counterstrike, UT, etc... Oddly enough, one common excuse for that ilk of cheater is that they have "a life" and can't spend all their time playing Counterstrike, UT, etc. Essentially they're talking about a different kind of grind - developing the skill to playing the game. Yet skill is what the "flawed grinding mechanism" meme folks seem to call for.

      It seems to me what we're really dealing with is a demand for instant satisfaction. And not just any form of satisfaction; it's got to be "I'm better than everyone else" flavored. But instant. With marshmellows.
    39. Re:My personal feelings.. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      As soon as you add the MMO part the story has to give a bit (there's not just one player (or just one small group) so the player can't be the "chosen one, saviour of the universe" and the game is long term so story is expensive to keep adding to.
      Not necessarily true. Guild Wars definately has a story and the player gets to be the big hero. It feels a bit like a traditional single player game. When you leave the cities or outposts the player is in an instanced area along with others in your small group. You don't see hundreds of other players all trying to rescue someone at the same time. And the game world changes depending upon the quests and missions you have done. When you finish that story, you can start again with a different character type, or buy an expansion with a different story, or put it away, or go do PVP instead, etc.
    40. Re:My personal feelings.. by Sparckus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed, the PvE content while casual friendly wasn't particularly great. After the first play through it was extremely boring. The PvP side had mountains of potential and if Anet didn't make an absolute arse of it I would still be playing it today (Lack of UAX at the start, handling of tournaments and the ladder and so on). Guild Wars PvE required a lot less grind than any other MMORPG but at the same time it didn't have a lot to do in it after completion, sure you can now buy expansions but it was crap having to wait for more content at the time. Grind in MMO's is the reason people want to cheat in the first place, Blizzard et al really should come up with a way of delivering good content that doesn't require shitloads of grind and rewards players for playing the game when they want to and when they can, rather than punishing them for not spending at least half of their life playing it.

    41. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take a player who has played the game for a while, is skilled at the game, and is very successful at completing game objectives. Now, have that player start a new game with a brand new character. He should be able to be somewhat competitive with that new character - not nearly as strong without his old level or gear, but still competitive.

      You might consider Nexus War - http://www.nexuswar.com/ - a skilled veteran player CAN start a brand new character and will be as competetive as before (scaled for level of course - as you mentioned, a guy without his old levels and gear is simply not as competetive mechanically).

      Gaining advantage by playing for hours is an impossibility, as the game ties your actions to "Action Points" which regenerate at the same fixed rate over time for all players. There is "Grinding" at the end-game to continue to improve your characters, but by and large, there are a number of different goals to distract from the grinding. Does it solve all MMORPG problems? Of COURSE not. But it avoids many of them.

      Oh yeah, and it's text-based and free - so all you need is an internet browser. Give it a try!

    42. Re:My personal feelings.. by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Also, with more sim elements in MMORPGs, there could easily be real impact on the game world. Not every quest has to be epic, some could result in minor changes, such as new shops opening up, new cities being founded, factions gaining or losing support, and so forth.

      Yeah I gotta admit that I'm deeply disappointed that World of Warcraft seems to be so lacking in the Warcraft department. What is Warcraft without constructing new buildings, and razing those of your enemy?

      There's a quest in the Barrens called Counterattack, where a whole mess of Centaurs spawn and start throwing incendiaries at the buildings, along with defensive NPCs on your side, and you have to fight the centaurs long enough until their leader appears then kill him to end the attack. Of course this has no long-lasting consequence (they can't burn down the buildings or anything), but it makes me think of the possibilities...

      Imagine if the Crossroads was always under attack by centaurs, with NPCs spawning from a Barracks-like building to fight them off. Players could fight off the centaurs for exp and loot and rep or whatever, or they could try to go get whatever materials to build a Mage Tower so you could have mage npcs helping you, or go raid the Centaur camp and destroy one of their buildings so they lose their stronger units. The players would have to defend their upgraded buildings, or they would be destroyed.

      Does this seem like it would be a lot more fun? A dynamic give-and-take between the factions (all of them, not just alliance/horde) to put the War back in Warcraft?

      While it still ends up being a "grind", and you are certainly going to be seeing the same things again and again, it seems like a reasonable step towards a more dynamic world where players really do have an impact.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    43. Re:My personal feelings.. by immcintosh · · Score: 1

      I actually could not disagree with you more. Now, I've played MMOs since the days of MUDs, but this is of course only my own experience. I would say, however, that people cheat almost exclusively because of the grind. When a game is actually actively fun, cheating generally detracts from that fun--makes it less so. I've found that most gamers recognize this, and when they are genuinely enjoying the play experience of a game will actively try to avoid anything that could be considered cheating or even cheap.

      The difference with grind-centric MMOs is that the focus stops being on having fun playing the game, and starts being about achieving some end goal or another. Most people enjoyed running Molten Core that first time, not knowing what to expect, learning how to do things the hard way. That's great. The 50th time you're forced to do it though, when you've long since worn it down to a practiced science, it becomes nothing more than a chore. You seem to be implying that people actually want to continue doing this chore for its own sake, but in my experience this could not be further from the truth.

      In fact, I think you are misrepresenting what it is to have a "grind" in a game. In Geometry Wars and Guitar Hero, you perform the actions that constitute game play because you enjoy them. I don't know anybody who would play Geometry Wars exclusively in order to get a new top score. I'm sure there are such people, but they're few and far between. What makes it different is that the game play you participate in while on your way to a new high score in Geometry Wars is inherently fun. In MMOs, the grind is not, and is performed only in order to achieve the end result.

      "But nobody would continue playing if they weren't having fun!" you might say. Well, the draw in MMOs is more than game play. They're actually social outlets, and I've found that most people who stick to it through the grind do so for the friends and community they've found in the game, and not because they enjoy the grind. There's the reward at the end of the grind, there's the community, there's a lot of things to keep you coming back, but the grind is not one of them.

      Sorry for being long winded, but it kinda annoys me when people treat the obnoxious grind as some sort of pinnacle of game design. Also, as for the claim that, "the best designers in the world are working on these games," I'd strongly disagree with that as well, for the reasons outlined above and a number of others (can you name many MMO designers? I can't, although I can name other respected game designers)... but I feel I've already outstayed my welcome with this post :P

    44. Re:My personal feelings.. by dave562 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. When I original heard about WoW I figured, "Cool... I'm going to be gathering resources, building barracks and helping fight the good fight." That was obviously a misconception on my part. I'd be happy if they stopped releasing expansions and built that kind of functionality into the current world. Of course it will never happen because it would completely change the dynamic of the game and making questing too difficult in the middle of a war zone.

    45. Re:My personal feelings.. by Dachannien · · Score: 1

      you can buy it from someone that is grinding away (or perhaps using exploits) Indeed, cheats are most ubiquitous among gold farmers, because "time is money, friend," and they're obviously in it to make money.

      Interestingly enough, the MMOG industry is running into problems where gold farmers are buying new accounts online and then doing a chargeback on whatever credit card they use, which not only stiffs the MMOG company, but nails them with a fee from the credit card company. So, in a sense, the biggest MMOG exploit to date doesn't even happen inside the game.
    46. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would say Second Life, while not a game, is exactly this.

    47. Re:My personal feelings.. by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      But then it isn't a true MMRPG. It's a single player game with an online community.

      Personally, I like the idea of having the world change based on player's actions. Nothing huge or too lasting on the part of level 1 newbies, but a level 100* arch-mage should be able to found or level a city.

      Eventually have a mission macro system where the higher level types stop operating at a tactical level normally and switch towards hiring people to do tasks to further their personal or organizational standings.

      Basically, they can use a simplified mission editor to create a mission and farm it out to the lower level types. IE the level 100 archmage wants to take over a country - he creates a dozen state takeover quests that are snapped up by level 90 types - the level 90 types create county level takeover quests that are taken by 80'ers, the 80'ers create a bunch of quests to take over cities(70s), towns(60s), villages(50s), etc... They hire lower level types for individual buildings, etc. The higher level types are kept busy putting making sure the task gets done, and helping in dangerous spots/breakthroughs.

      *Assuming that 100 is around the 'max', or takes a year's work, etc...

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    48. Re:My personal feelings.. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I did not start using MacroQuest2 in EQ until WoW came out and SOE handled the server population crash so poorly and so many guilds folded do to lack of membership that counting on finding others to group or raid with was no longer viable. I spent another year in game with a crew of 4 running my own automation code (and looking for a serious guild to join) before basically running out of things I could do with only 4 toons. The game had still not recovered from the server population crash at that point. I actually had as much fun writing a general script to handle most in game situations and battles using 4 toons as I did on the best raids my guild conducted.

      The only way I suspect it could have been avoided would have been for SOE to allow unrestricted transfers between servers so that like minded players could congregate. As it was, they were still charging $50 or so to transfer and it was very difficult to ascertain what you were likely to find on another server or to coordinate with off server players.

    49. Re:My personal feelings.. by jayveekay · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At $15/month, WoW subscription costs about $.50/day. Expansion for $40 every 2 years works out to another $.06 per day, so say $0.56 per day total.

      Guild Wars cost is about $40 to buy an expansion every 6 months, or about $0.25/day.

      So, the difference in dollar cost between the 2 games is about $0.30/day. I would argue that if that amount of money is a more significant factor to you than which game you enjoy playing more, then you should play neither and instead spend the time earning more money. :)

    50. Re:My personal feelings.. by Nebu · · Score: 1

      Geometry Wars you grind until you beat your next high score. Guitar Hero you grind on a song until you can get 5 stars. Etc. etc.

      The difference here is that this isn't "grinding", this is practice.

      If you play a song over and over in Guitar Hero, you get better at it, which eventually allows you to get five stars. You, the player actually get better at the game. In most MMORPGS, however, grinding is mere repitition, doing something over and over and over for experience points (or something similar), to improve the game character. The player is no better at the game, the game character is merely powered up.

      Mod parent up. Another difference is that grinding is, by definition, unpleasant, and a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. Contrast that with games like Guitar Hero, DrumMania, DDR, etc. where I will re-do a song which I have already fully perfected, just 'cause I enjoy that particular song so much. I already got the maximum possible score on a song. There is no external reward (i.e. there is no higher score to achieve, because I already go the highest possible score that the game will allow for that song) for doing this song again. Yet, I do it again anyway, because playing the song is itself the ends which I am trying to achieve.

    51. Re:My personal feelings.. by demachina · · Score: 1

      Cheating is rampant in BF2 and it doesn't really have any grind component other than whoring points to rank up. The ranks really aren't worth much other than prestige and they don't even offer much of that. There is no monetary component at all. Some people place value in their stats but you can usually look at someones stats and tell they are cheating, because their accuracy is way to good.

      In WoW there certainly is a huge element using cheats to gold farm, advance their characters, and to circumvent grind time, but people still cheat when all those elements are not there.

      Try to explain the rationale of someone paying money for an aimbot in BF2. They don't get any return on the investment. They usually rack up ridiculous stats so everyone knows they are cheating so its not like anyone stands in awe of their ability, everyone instantly hates them.

      The only psychologies behind it I can visualize are:

      - People are fascinated with beating the system, finding flaws in software especially networked software, and think they are impressing other people in networked games by flaunting the fact they are beating the system.

      - Some people have inherent psychological issues that make them want to be vandals. People who use cheats in BF2 rapidly destroy the game play on a server, make everyone playing for fun miserable so they leave, and driver servers in to the tank.

      - I get the impression some people cheat just to punish the people who play games for fun and recreation. Maybe their lives are miserable so they want to make everyone else miserable too.

      - They are people who are neophyte hackers in training learning to beat game software before they move up to the big leagues and try to beat banking software and become felons. I'm not sure the skill sets of cracking games and cracking websites is exactly the same though.

      --
      @de_machina
    52. Re:My personal feelings.. by kitsunewarlock · · Score: 1

      You don't need to be the "savior of the world" in an RPG. Most (newer) RPers tend to write characters like this, but I've seen people RP accountants to 'the side-kick of the secondary or tertiary villain". Thanks to new mediums such as anime and newer fantasy novels/films* focusing on more than just the singular hero. The side characters are many times loved by more people than the protagonist (at least in my experiences). RPing the "random-one-shot-character-who-isn't-always-in-the-spot-ligt" isn't a bad thing anymore. Half because when he gets his moment in the sun its really cool and memorable, and half because the interesting things you can do with a side character usually tends to make them more memorable in the viewers mind then the generic protagonist or antagonist. Since you don't affect the plot all the time and aren't "the chosen one", your allowed certain unique freedoms (from exploring grayer areas of morality more easily to having a god-modish power that is only worthwhile in such a unique capacity that your designed for "that one moment"**.

      Check out some online, forum based RPGs if you want more information/data on this. Make sure they are RP groups with long lasting and unique characters though, not just temporary groups of people on gaia online RPing their favorite Inuyasha characters.

      *By newer I mean...50-60 years as opposed to older epics and sci-fi dramas like Flash Gorden.

      **"Able to shoot eye beams that can blow up mountains if fighting a lich's snow wurm in hawaii". Heehee, couldn't resist.

      --
      Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
    53. Re:My personal feelings.. by Omestes · · Score: 1

      WoW did have some embryonic elements of the "chosen one" aspect of RPGs. I remember when WoW was new, doing the Onyxia quest chain, and getting the huge procession through Stormwind. 10 lowbies (genuine newbs at the time, not just some 70's alt like you'd get now) followed me to see the big fight. It was a pretty awesome experience, and very well done. Just like getting the dragon's head in the middle of the main Horde city. It was rather small, and other people have done it before, and will later, but it made you feel important. Unlike most everything else in the game now. You go kill big massive raid boss x, and all you get is some silly gear to link in general trade, and hope someone actually cares, as if it won't become crap the next expansion.

      But then again I've done the predecessor of MMO's (MUDs), and never really found one where you had the illusion of making a difference either. Granted they were more exploration based, as a whole. I guess the big goal was to hit the level cap, and schmooze up to the admins, and become a poobah of some sort so you could make the player base miserable.

      I always had the idea of a game where you work towards the cap, like most MMOs, but the higher you get the more power over the game itself you get. Eventually become an admin of sorts, with the ability to create zones, or such. RP wise it would be justified as you getting more godlike as you level. It would help eliminate the power creep issue in most RPGs, where you get uber kill the boss, then BAM something more uber comes along. Of course it would need a massive world, to have a massive level cap to keep it from stagnating. Or perhaps have some form of really special quest chain that would allow advancement of special powers.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    54. Re:My personal feelings.. by dave562 · · Score: 1

      As someone who buys gold I am glad that the gold farmers are there. I've only bought gold on two occassions but I feel it well worth the $50 I spent. My time is worth so much more to me than $50. I buy it because of the grind and the pressures on my time are such that when I play the game, I want to be able to play the game and not spend my time playing catch up farming motes of whatever to craft item X that I need to get stat Y up to point Z so that I can run instance $ without getting owned by mob *. I barely play the game any more because I don't like the mindset it cultivates. I spend a good portion of my day doing a task to acquire the things that I need to live (food, shelter, etc.) Keeping up with those things generates a certain amount of stress... albeit a stress that I can handle, but a stress none the less. The allure of then spending another hour or more acquiring the necessities for some avatar in a virtual game world is just more of the same... grind, grind, grind to acquire some new toy. Isn't there enough of that in the world already?

    55. Re:My personal feelings.. by TobyWong · · Score: 1

      The "oh it's the grind" argument doesn't wash with me either.

      Online gaming is rife with cheating right across the board - it's not limited to MMOs or games with a grind component. Every game that comes out now has people cheating or attempting to cheat even if there is no perceivable benefit to the user outside of engaging in a little schadenfreude.

      --
      - Toby
    56. Re:My personal feelings.. by Pojut · · Score: 1

      While I appreciate the math, there is one thing you didn't factor in:

      I haven't (nor do I plan to) buy any expansions for Guild Wars;-)

    57. Re:My personal feelings.. by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      This is the battle cry of all cheaters. "I want instant gratification so I'm going to cheat because the game is so unfair for making me work for a rewards!" When I played WoW, I burned time as an herbalist for money to buy items/help out guildies. My time translated to in-game rewards as well as it should be. Whether you agree or not, the game maker is attempting to set a balance to cut down on twinks. I'll agree that some grinds are monotonous, but you're usually doing it for a reason.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    58. Re:My personal feelings.. by denarii · · Score: 1

      The next WoW expansion will be introducing siege weapons and destructible buildings, so hopefully we'll see something along those lines.

    59. Re:My personal feelings.. by gemcigital · · Score: 1
      In my view, the main reason for hacks, exploits and other cheats is to make money. Grinding may suck, but making money is...well, making money.

      Here's a basic article that might help set this in context: http://www.informit.com/guides/content.aspx?g=security&seqNum=284&rl=1

      gem

      http://www.cigital.com/~gem

    60. Re:My personal feelings.. by gemcigital · · Score: 1
      IMHO, grinding is best carried out by a bot. In the book, we have two chapters (with lots of code) about botting.

      gem http://www.cigital.com/~gem

    61. Re:My personal feelings.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Never mind bugs; most online games are broken by design. To improve interactivity, they trust clients to send state changes rather than just requests. And thus are speed hacks born, and the arms race begins. Even Blizzard are fighting a rearguard on that, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.

      I fully agree on the reaction issue. I've yet to see an online game where exploits are treated the correct way. Instead of shrieking "burn the witch" and wielding the banstick, they should just be silently fixed (not that they should have been designed in, but I digress). In fact, even calling them exploits engenders the wrong attitude. The right attitude is to say that anything that the game lets you do is OK, and that it is the developers' sole responsibility to alter the game's behaviour, and never, ever the players' responsibility to refrain from any action that the game (by which I really mean the servers) actually allows.

      The amount of energy, time and money that companies waste on railing their paying players for acting like real humans rather than obedient serfs would be funny if it weren't so pathetic and self defeating.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    62. Re:My personal feelings.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Anyone writing Massive servers in Java (or C#) should be billed the full ongoing costs of the extra iron that they require. Quite apart from the inherent overheads of VMs, those languages automagically spawn threads for network activity, rather than allowing you to perform non-blocking access from a smaller thread pool. They simply don't scale up well. A few dozen players, fine, hundreds, OK, but you hit the thousands and you're spending a significant amount of your cycles just thrashing between threads.

      Java and C# people will likely deny it, but then they were always pretty big on cognitive dissonance.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    63. Re:My personal feelings.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Ahem. MOO, MUSH and MUSE 'MUDS' allow players to craft the world using an amazingly rich object oriented scripting language. I learned the fundamentals of OO design on the old RP oriented Star Trek MUSE, and not a level cap or quest in sight.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    64. Re:My personal feelings.. by evilWurst · · Score: 1

      I think we can say we've learned two things from WoW:

      Grinding is both a game mechanic AND a personal playstyle. You can damn near completely remove any requirement or advantage of grinding, and a significant percent of the playerbase will *still* grind anyway. And bitch about it. It's tied to the addiction thing, which you've already covered in your post. And it's an addiction that players joining a new game bring with them from the games they've left behind.

      The other thing we've learned is that someone will always whine about the time requirement of an MMO, even if the game is easy, and they'll turn that whine in to some sort of claimed justification for buying gold from the gold farmers. I think this shows that it's more due to competitive human nature than actual grinding requirements, since we still see the same argument used even after having removed the grind. "I'm just a casual player! I have to buy gold to keep up with my friends who play more!" As long as MMOs have a wide enough power scale (and a non-trivial time requirement to climb that scale), we're still going to see that argument, even if the game is pure fun all the way up the scale. Unless you only play with people with the exact same schedule as you, you're going to have friends who advance faster than you and friends who advance slower than you.

      IMO the gold farming thing only exacerbates these issues - because the people who spend lots of time playing *also* buy gold. There are also the in-game economy issues, where mass farming introduces too much money too fast, driving up prices. And the crowding out issue, where masses of farmers monopolizing a spot starve the rest out for a resource (or XP), and then people feel "forced" to buy those resources on the open market, driving up prices, and so on. Positive feedback loops degrading the gameplay. Clearly we'd all be better off if gold farming was marginalized, but, given all the other points I've brought up, it's pretty much inherent to the existence of MMOs that 1) people will try to farm, and 2) people will try to buy gold.

    65. Re:My personal feelings.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Cheating is rampant in BF2^W Quake back in 1996

      There, fixed that for you. Actually, by the time Quake came out, XPilot and Netrek had been hammered by bot and borg clients for years. Thus my username.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    66. Re:My personal feelings.. by asuffield · · Score: 1

      (and also reinforced to me why game code shouldn't be written in C; at least use C++, people...)


      Realistically, this isn't important. It might work for minor desktop applications, but for any network system, if you can't get it right in C, then you aren't going to be able to get it right in C++ or Java or whatever the language of the day is, either.

      Bounds errors are by far the simplest problem to detect and write code to avoid. If you cannot get that right, you will not get more subtle issues of network synchronisation right. You can easily argue that languages which eliminate the problem of bounds errors will save you development time by not having to worry about them; you really can't argue that they will make the system any less vulnerable to things like speed or item duplication attacks. The only particularly interesting thing about bounds errors is that they're the main source of remote code execution attacks.
    67. Re:My personal feelings.. by thesandtiger · · Score: 1

      SWG tried what you suggest.

      So I got to be some super-duper elite person (a Master Bounty Hunter, woo-woo) who was sent by the Hutts to kill womp rats. Because, you know, if you're hiring the best of the best when it comes to snipers, the thing you want them to do is kill womp rats. And, for some reason, Jabba the Hutt had nothing better to do than send highly skilled mercenaries to kill... rodents. The "faction" missions were even worse. I remember doing a whole string of missions for Jabba and being given... a fishing pole. On the desert planet of Tatooine. That's about as big a fuck you as getting a book of McDonald's gift certificates as your annual bonus.

      City of Heroes/Villains tried this as well. "Hey, thesandtiger! Thank god you're here! My trousers need to be defeated by the magnificent generic_enemy_group_003!" The only parts that were any good were the story arcs, which were 100% scripted.

      I still somewhat enjoy WoW's way of questing - they basically ignore the whole concept of other players in quests. Right now, my paladin just became queen of the Ogres and when I kill an ogre they reference that fact. Yeah, sure, I'm like the 9 billionth queen of the ogres to fuck some ogres up today, but that doesn't matter: I can pretend like that Night Elf Hunter "Toohawtforjoo" who is also being called the queen of the ogres doesn't exist.

      But I still have a problem with Jabba the motherfucking Hutt telling me he really NEEDS my bounty hunting ass to go and blow up a nest of chupas. I mean, okay, the Fett family in the films met some rather anti-climactic ends, but come the fuck on, surely a Master Bounty Hunter ought to be getting hired to do something OTHER than kill froggish things.

      --
      Since I can't tell them apart, I treat all ACs as the same person.
    68. Re:My personal feelings.. by asuffield · · Score: 1

      People, in fact, play these games because of the grind.


      I do not think you know what this word means. The grind is, by definition, that part of the game which they do not want to play. The grind is when you stand in a field for 10 hours punching rats so that you can get the skill which you actually want to use instead of punching. If you are enjoying yourself, then you are not grinding. If you are repetitively killing the same critter 500 times over to advance in level and unlock the next batch of content, or collect a full set of equipment so that you can take on the really tough parts of the game, then you are grinding.

      Grind is to games what padding is to novels. It is inserted to make the game longer without having to actually create more content. Game content is about the experience of playing the game. Grinding is about making a number larger. Grinding can be accomplished most effectively by a computer; content is utterly pointless if you aren't playing it.

      Hence, anything in the game which drives people to cheat is, by definition, grind. This is pretty much what the word means.
    69. Re:My personal feelings.. by lgw · · Score: 1

      If you had said "anything the client allows" I'd have agreed with you. But writing your own client deserves banning - that's not the game being offered. If you want a programming competition, those are available seperately.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    70. Re:My personal feelings.. by lgw · · Score: 1

      It's much easier to get resource management right in C++ than in C, with none of the overhead of a garbage-collected language. I've never seen a substantial C program without leaks, unless the feature set had been stable for years, and devs had hunted leaks for those years. With modern C++ coding style, resource management is a non-issue - far easier than C# or Java in fact, because object lifetimes are obvious and controllable by default.

      C code done *right* is quite tedious, because *every* function call must be followed by an error check and conditional branch to the cleanup section of the function (and every pointer passed as input to every function must be validated, or you're just being sloppy). All of that clutter vanishes in C++.

      If you want bounds checking done wrote, use ADA. Nothing else comes close.

      It looks like C++0x will include some sort of option for garbage collection - I fear for the future of the language.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    71. Re:My personal feelings.. by lgw · · Score: 1

      Those "games" grew into Second Life and it's competitors.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    72. Re:My personal feelings.. by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

      No, he was right. It seems like you only have the choices of buying it from another grinder or using exploits, but you actually have a third option of spending fifty hours to get that last rare drop.

    73. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once read about how one of the older Phantasy Star Online games worked. Basically you had limited inventory and more money than you'd ever need so when you got that better item you'd have to part with one of your own, usually by giving it to another player. This not only meant less grinding for you but less grinding for everyone else. I can't comment much beyond this other than to say that there were no gold farmers and little cheating if any because the game was designed in such a way that both were fruitless.

      The only way to beat these issues is to make them non-profitable in both the real world and game world. If you can do that and still maintain the fun factor and lasting appeal you're set with a WoW beater.

    74. Re:My personal feelings.. by spirit+of+reason · · Score: 1
      After the first play through, Prophecies is extremely boring up until about Ascension. ANet kind of fixed that with Factions, where the leveling and skill acquisition proceeded at a blistering pace. On the solo side, the introduction of heroes in Nightfall made starting characters with new professions and developing their skills exceedingly important, since heroes only had unlocked skills available to them. You could invest a lot of time into the ten classes, just trying out different professions. And for multiplayer PvE, roleplay? ;-)

      They still don't add more than seasonal quests to the existing PvE content, but if you went through all of what was offered, I don't know what to say... you're too hardcore; take some breaks, haha. I've managed to put over 300 hours into the game (okay, a not insignificant portion was idling and chatting) over 7 characters. Each of the professions has different caveats that make them interesting, I think, and I find trying out new characters and giving each of them an identity for roleplaying quite fun.

      There's plenty to do if you like to explore. If you're just looking for new dungeons, it was $50 (or less) and you didn't have to pay a monthly fee; consider it like an offline RPG with some multiplayer added in for kicks.

    75. Re:My personal feelings.. by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      I agree. My real interest in WoW died when they cut the balls off world PvP. What I was hoping for was an actual struggle between the factions.

      For instance, if the Alliance managed to hold the center of a Horde contested town for, say 30 minutes, then Alliance guards, townsfolk, vendors and quest-givers would spawn, and neighbouring Horde towns would become contested. Then the Horde would have to strike back to reclaim their town. You could even work in something like DaoC, where there would be a global buff/debuff to each faction depending on what proportion of the world they held at any given time.

      You could set it up so the harder-to-hold towns (the ones with a lot of high-level guards, the ones where you have to be holding three or four towns already before they become contested) spawn questgivers with rare and rewarding quests, or vendors with powerful items. Players could gain XP for towns they conquer or liberate. If enough towns are held for a certain length of time, a world event might trigger - like, say, Thrall getting off his arse, gathering the Orcish host and coming to reclaim his territory - so one faction would find it very hard to keep and hold all the towns.

      That sort of thing would really promote cross-faction interaction, instead of the situation you have now, which is either just waving to the other faction as you cross their territory (PvE servers) or getting randomly ganked by decked out characters twice your level in Stranglethorn (PvP servers). The way it is now, they might as well just merge the factions for all the difference it'd make to the game.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    76. Re:My personal feelings.. by JSlope · · Score: 1

      Actually Java has NIO API for precise those reasons, to write efficient servers. Also you can look at grizzly framework https://grizzly.dev.java.net/

      --
      ResoMail - the alternative secure e-mail system
    77. Re:My personal feelings.. by uofitorn · · Score: 1

      You could have made this argument 5 years ago, but today, it doesn't work. Now, most cheating is done by those looking to profit financially, not from those looking to avoid the 'grind'.

      --
      "What kind of music do pirates listen to?" -Paul Maud'dib
      "Yeeeaaarrrrr n' Bee!!" -Stilgar, Leader of Sietch Tabr
    78. Re:My personal feelings.. by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Hey, who put that elephant in the room? ;)

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    79. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is writing code "grinding"? What about painting? Soldering? Singing? Playing cards? Cooking? Sex?

      Answers: It can be, if you work at a shop that doesn't allow you to innovate. No. No. No. No. No. And emphatically, YES, but it's an enjoyable form of grinding. If MMORPGs offered sex, people wouldn't be complaining. (* I don't count that cybersex you had with the 40 yr old man pretending to be 18 yr old blonde chick playing a night elf.)

    80. Re:My personal feelings.. by brkello · · Score: 1

      I disagree. In an MMORPG if you were to start over again and play, wouldn't you be better? You are gaining skills on how to play the game as you are leveling. When you participate in PvP, you would play better than someone just starting. And part of the game itself is leveling...so if you figure out how to get experience faster, you are improving at playing the game. As long as you are enjoying the game mechanic, it doesn't matter if you are playing the same guitar hero song over and over again until you beat it or going out doing PvP over and over again until you get the gear you wanted. They are both grinds, but as long as you are enjoying it, I don't see the problem. If you don't enjoy it, then why the heck are you playing the game?

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    81. Re:My personal feelings.. by ngc3242 · · Score: 1

      He's clearly an engineer. They're always underestimating.

    82. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To this extent, Guitar Hero (and Geometry Wars, and most non-RPGs, really) is no more a "grind" than any other skill-based activity that you do in the real world. Is writing code "grinding"? What about painting? Soldering? Singing? Playing cards? Cooking? Sex? Sex can often start out as quite alot of grinding, but eventually you'll get to the end game.
    83. Re:My personal feelings.. by gailrob · · Score: 1

      I think MMORPGs are similar to a rat on a wheel in nature. The idea is the keep the rat running as long as possible. MMORPG's are totally different breed. Unlike other games the developers arn't trying to pack as much fun into a game as possible and move onto a new game. All they really want is to keep everyone paying their monthly fee as long as possible. Grinding is the easiest way to ensure a player spends the maximum amount of time possible doing a task that requires the least amount of development money.

      Creating new content is expensive and reduces profits. Forcing players to re-engage the same, already developed content over and over again is purely profitable.

      I'd bet the formula goes something like this:

      Game model = (Smallest amount of code + Smallest amount art) / Maximum player time investment

      No where in there is fun even a factor. These games stopped being about fun the moment the developers realized they could charge a monthly fee. Its a service now. My advice, don't ever play a game with a monthly fee, period. It is almost like taking on a second job only... you pay the employer for the right to work there. It's bogus.

      Yes, I'm a former WoW player and I will never play another MMORPG for these reasons.

    84. Re:My personal feelings.. by gailrob · · Score: 1

      And it is fought because there's a "HOW DARE YOU MAKE MONEY ON ---MY--- GAME!?!" mentality. I would point out that your argument might be a little off. I'd say most of the cheaters are the people who reap the rewards from those who are out for profit. I'd be for every one farmer there's about 50 players waiting to buy their gold. Who are the real cheats? The one guy out for profit or the 50 players waiting to pay him for his time?

    85. Re:My personal feelings.. by DRAGONWEEZEL · · Score: 1

      And the funniest thing about that comment is....

      Wait for it...
      Wait for it...

      YOUR SIG!

      Duh Duh Dum ding!

      --
      How much is your data worth? Back it up now.
    86. Re:My personal feelings.. by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Imagine if the Crossroads was always under attack by centaurs, with NPCs spawning from a Barracks-like building to fight them off. Players could fight off the centaurs for exp and loot and rep or whatever, or they could try to go get whatever materials to build a Mage Tower so you could have mage npcs helping you, or go raid the Centaur camp and destroy one of their buildings so they lose their stronger units. The players would have to defend their upgraded buildings, or they would be destroyed.

      I get the impression (ok maybe its just a vain hope) that this is where Age of Conan is headed...

      They talk about players being able to found cities, destroyable buildings etc.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    87. Re:My personal feelings.. by Pojut · · Score: 1

      favourite psychedelic + RP server in WoW + 50-person campfire gathering in crossroads = full of win 8D

    88. Re:My personal feelings.. by Lord+Kestrel · · Score: 1

      I tried going to that site, but it forces me to accept cookies and refuses to work without them, so I closed the tab. Perhaps it's a good site, perhaps it isn't, but forcing a viewer to accept cookies to visit the site is really shitty design.

    89. Re:My personal feelings.. by FlyveHest · · Score: 1

      I'd have to say that, yes, sex, if you look at it from a purely mechanical point of view, actually is nothing more than grinding.

    90. Re:My personal feelings.. by TheTick21 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. There is a massive difference. In GH3, Counterstrike or Geometry Wars you aren't grinding. Huge difference between practice and grinding. In one my skills, level of commitment and speed of improvement dictate how long it will take for me to reach a goal. In the other an arbitrary number is what dictates when I reach my goal. Gather 80000 copper ore to continue vs actually get good enough to beat this level.

      One is highly repetetive with no surprising developments. The other is dynamic. You can make leaps and bounds in advancement of skills.

      They are not even close to the same thing. It is plain ignorance to say so IMO.

    91. Re:My personal feelings.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Today's episode was brought to you by the number 3.

    92. Re:My personal feelings.. by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Playing other games while in the midst of my addiction (and it was, admittedly, an addiction) made me feel like I was wasting my time...after all, playing God of War wasn't gonna put the ore in my backpack:-)

      Now all you have to do is transfer that attitude towards real-world earthly possessions and you're a good little capitalist :). I wonder if WoW, Eve Online or something similar could be used to teach kids discipline and distrust ?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  5. Not just the game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some people actually write malware to install keyloggers by hacking into game-related sites. There was an article in the Firehose that was rejected about how Final Fantasy XI's website was hacked and a keylogger was created that would install through browser exploits. It would then steal gamers passwords (which were apparently stored clear-text in the game settings?) and then the accounts would be used to steal gold from them. Apparently Sony's response was to completely ignore complaints and refuse to restore deleted accounts.

    So not only does the game client have to be secure, the entire computer has to be secure - apparently MMORPGs are big enough business to warrant malware explicitly targeting players.

    1. Re:Not just the game... by Reapman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Eh what? First off, FFXI isn't made by Sony, it's made by Square Enix. Also it wasn't the FFXI Site that got hacked, it was a major fan site outside of SE's control that had an Ad that would install malicious code, the site was ffxi.somepage.com (it has now been corrected is my understanding, safe to visit, or just use Opera or Firefox to work around it)

      SE is dropping the ball in this area though, I know a few people that got screwed and lost their accounts like this.

  6. Just ask regular players.... by Ian+McBeth · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just ask regular players about the security of the MMORPG's that they play.
    Most are regular hack fests.

    Ultima Online: Scripting in the number one player complaint, but EA doesn't give a rats ass, they never ban, despide their TOS saying otherwise. Other cheats include ways to make players drop items, and using bots to monitor certain parts of the game for the sole purpose of knowing exactly when to raid, and then there is all the speed hacking (EG movement hacks) that goes on.

    Lineage II: I played for 6 months, and never met another player, just about 4000 different bots.

    LOTRO: Besides the game missing something, it had its share of bots.

    WoW: I get spammed with cheat site URL's every time I login, regardless of realm.

    Of all the above WoW seems to have it the most under control, but that doesn't mean they don't have room to improve.
    Cheating is so rampant in Ultima Online anymore, that the fricken game isn't worth logging into.

    1. Re:Just ask regular players.... by DeeQ · · Score: 1

      In wow I get spammed with gold sites but cheats.

    2. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Malevolent+Tester · · Score: 1

      Lineage II: I played for 6 months, and never met another player, just about 4000 different bots.

      I occassionally have a look at the MMO betas on fileplanet; almost without fail*, every Korean or Chinese open beta is cheated to irrelevance within a week of the beta starting - everything from complicated bots to speed hacks to simple memory cheats that shouldn't have been possible on any decent client 20 years ago. While every MMO seems to be afflicted with cheats, Asian (and console) developers don't seem to have learned the simple lesson of "never trust the client".

      *Navy Field being the exception

      --
      If you haven't made a developer cry, you've wasted a day.
    3. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Part of the reason WoW manages so well is that many of the kinds of rewards for achievements they give simply can't be bought and sold, the most significant being items that you can only get from PvE progress. I've never heard of gold farmers joining a high-end guild and selling a char with Illidan-killing level gear...

      However, the AH prices for those items that can be sold and bought are pretty screwed up. Anything that's worth buying has seriously inflated prices while everything else doesn't sell at all (random greens sell for slightly above the vendor price due to enchanters leveling their skill, but that's about it). Of course most of those things are achievable without cheating - just by spending lots and lots of time online with enough characters...

      Another problem is that leveling a new character on a realm where you don't have higher level characters requires you to choose a class that isn't too gear-dependent, since any gear worth having will be very difficult to get - since most similar level chars are twinks...that has nothing to do with cheating, but the item price inflation problem is very much related.

    4. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Zader · · Score: 1

      Of all the above WoW seems to have it the most under control, but that doesn't mean they don't have room to improve.
      It's been a while since I've been playing, but have you seen the number of autoleveling bots every time they open up a new server? It's a joke. I spent a couple of hours one night killing an ally priest who was doing the level grind with a bot. (I quit after something like 40 kills ... very boring). Screenshots, appeals - no actions by a GM. Saw the same guy a night or two later at a much higher level. Same with speedhacks.

      This is why I quit bothering with WoW. Humans are now obsolete.

    5. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Bahamut_Omega · · Score: 1

      Well asides from WoW; I also play MapleStory. The latter tends to have a fair amount of hackers depending if someone releases an exploit into the wild. I've seen a few times where the hacking has gotten to the point where I've had to put a notice to my guild members because of it as well as take a break. This was all because Gameguard usually doesn't work too well for security; and Nexon usually tends to leap before they look. I would challenge one of the people from Nexon to post on slashdot under this very topic.

    6. Re:Just ask regular players.... by 1001011010110101 · · Score: 1

      That doesn't happen only in the the Korean ones.
      WOW, for instance, has player position (x,y,z) in memory, and trusts the client about it. Some time ago, when teleport hacks started to surface, Blizzard started doing what koreans/chinese have done for years: monitor the player computer for software that could alter memory, and some other hacks. I believe they also started looking server traces to see people teleporting into non-standard destinations (people can teleport to their home in once an hour).
      The problem with not trusting the client, is the resource usage in the server to monitor that much. I dont think wow realms support more than 2k users as it is, if everything was to be controlled on the client, they woudn't be able to support 200.

    7. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Kethinov · · Score: 1

      Regarding Ultima Online, play on a free server like UOGamers. The reimplemented server software prevents the server-related exploits like speedhacking (attempting it gets you auto-banned) and as for scripting, admins are vigilant about combating it. They have measures that EA didn't implement like in-game captchas and other internal methods of blocking scripting attempts.

      I quit UO on EA's servers five years ago (making a hefty sum selling all my stuff on ebay in the process!) for the player run community have haven't looked back. The player run servers are of higher quality, sufficiently large populations, and are overall a superior gaming experience to EA's servers. I love it. :)

      Best of all - no monthly fee. I can binge and purge freely and not feel obligated to login for 5 hours every day.

      --
      You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    8. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Rakarra · · Score: 1
      It's been a while since I've been playing, but have you seen the number of autoleveling bots every time they open up a new server? It's a joke. I spent a couple of hours one night killing an ally priest who was doing the level grind with a bot. (I quit after something like 40 kills ... very boring). Screenshots, appeals - no actions by a GM. Saw the same guy a night or two later at a much higher level. Same with speedhacks.

      One thing I've found is that, unless the offense has to do with personal harassment or something else that MUST be taken care of that minute, people rarely get banned at the moment that Blizzard is aware of the offense. Even if they're running hacks that scan the map, automate movement, etc. Instead they get added to a ban list that is purged, oh.. once a month. So happy grindy priest might make it to level 62 before finding his account banned.

    9. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If this is true, then I guess ffxi handles it the best (so far, I'm sure ffxi isn't the best overall, just better than the ones on your list, which is surprising I assumed wow did a better job). I have never been spammed to buy gil in ffxi as for bots, well it's a rare site to see a bot other than a fish bot, or claim bot, and claim bots aren't commonly used by afk players either. (The bot basically times a command perfectly to try and beat the other 100 people trying to "claim" a single monster after it appears)

    10. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, no. Back in the day, Final Farming XI was the king of bots. For a while, there were more bots than actual players in that game. Fishbots and claimbots were the most common, since the only way to make money in that game was to hunt rare spawns.

      The reason there aren't as many bots any more is that no one in their right mind still plays that game unless they're stuck with an old crappy PS2 and can't play one of the far superior current MMORPGs that require an actual PC.

      FFXI is at most a footnote in the history of MMORPGs along with all the other EverQuest clones.

    11. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep up the good work, but be vigilant - at some point you may have actually missed an opportunity to bash FFXI.

    12. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice ad homien, paranoid much?

      Sorry, but the simple reality is that while FFXI was even mildly relevant (e.g., before WoW opened their beta) the game was flooded with bots and SE did nothing about it.

      Now that the game's entirely irrelevant, the fact that the bots have left isn't at all interesting. They didn't leave because SE did anything. (Since SE did nothing.) They left because they're all now playing games that actually have people playing them.

      It's not a FFXI bash, it's simple truth: FFXI was no more successful at preventing hacks than any other MMORPG. In fact, compared with WoW, it was far less successful.

      And if you disagree with that, don't just call it "FFXI bashing" and try and post actual proof.

    13. Re:Just ask regular players.... by WNight · · Score: 1

      I'll pick up the slack. It's a two-bit game for people who like playing with menus. Select attack, watch, select another attack, watch. Snooze!

      It's a game for people whose sole interest in character development is picking a name and color-coordinating their loot. (Tied with most MMOs on this one.)

      The absolute crap of a game that has people standing around, trying to claim a "spawned" monster is literally indescribable.

      How about having monsters appear where people aren't? Pft. It's a joke that didn't get its dose of funny.

    14. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      FFXI is at most a footnote in the history of MMORPGs along with all the other EverQuest clones.

      That's Asheron's Call. FFXI is doing just fine. Many ppl who raid in WOW spend the off-raid time in FFXI as it's more flexible in the higher levels (mutable classes!). Unique in the high-end MMORPGs.
      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    15. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, "unique" in that most other games allow you to create multiple characters WITHOUT paying extra.

      "Unique" in that most other games don't FORCE you to replay the newbie levels MULTIPLE TIMES just to level up to endgame.

      "Unique" in that most other games allow players to customize their class instead of having every single class/race combination be literally IDENTICAL.

      FFXI's class system flat-out sucks compared to class systems of games that came decades before it.

    16. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Random_Goblin · · Score: 1

      One thing I've found is that, unless the offense has to do with personal harassment or something else that MUST be taken care of that minute, people rarely get banned at the moment that Blizzard is aware of the offense. Even if they're running hacks that scan the map, automate movement, etc. Instead they get added to a ban list that is purged, oh.. once a month. So happy grindy priest might make it to level 62 before finding his account banned.
      Apart from making the banning job easier, as all the sysadmins here will agree, this will also have bonus effect of slowing the feedback loops for the bot makers.

      The faster you get banned for your bot actions, the easier it is to work out which actions identified you as a bot and code round them.

      since it is always going to be an arms race between the hackers and developers, and since you can't ever WIN an arms race, (only be ahead at a point in time) the best thing the devs can do is control the speed the arms race escalates...
    17. Re:Just ask regular players.... by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      "Unique" in that most other games don't FORCE you to replay the newbie levels MULTIPLE TIMES just to level up to endgame.

      "Unique" in that most other games allow players to customize their class instead of having every single class/race combination be literally IDENTICAL.

      You obviously don't play WoW/GW and are trolling.
      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
  7. rootkit-like? by kwerle · · Score: 1

    I'm curious if "rootkit-like techniques to evade detection" is anything but BS market speak.

    1. Re:rootkit-like? by RichMan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Blizzard has a cheat monitor process calls the Warden which scans the active process list for known cheat programs. Hiding from a process scanner is "rootkit-like". It is indeed a war zone out there. I wonder if these guys ever play core-wars.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

      --
      Warden (also known as Warden Client) is an anti-cheating tool integrated in Blizzard Entertainment games such as Diablo II, StarCraft (since patch 1.15), and most notably World of Warcraft. While the game is running, Warden uses API function calls to collect data on open programs on the user's computer and sends it back to Blizzard servers as hash values to be compared to those of known cheating programs.[1] Privacy advocates consider the program to be spyware.[2]
      --

    2. Re:rootkit-like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm curious if "rootkit-like techniques to evade detection" is anything but BS market speak.


      Means they used something like the Sony BMG rootkit if not that exact rootkit to hide their hacks.

      Hide stuff at such a low level anything loaded after the protective rootkit umbrella has no chance to see it.

    3. Re:rootkit-like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, it means literally what it says. Rootkit-like techniques to evade detection; specifically, process stealthing.

      Because, for example, Blizzard's polymorphic anti-cheat "Warden" tries to scan process lists, the memory space of other processes, window titles - and, if they want, your filesystem - and because it can be updated at any time, if you want to spend any serious time looking at the game in that way, one of the very first things you're going to need is a good stealth driver to pull the wool over its eyes.

      It shouldn't be that difficult, you'd think. Both Inner Space and Glider, for example, have modules to do just that, and they're running a kernel mode driver which Warden doesn't have the advantage of, but even so, the stealth is woefully incomplete which is one reason people get massbanned.

      Of course the other reason is that bots tend to look rather obvious to any other player, and get reported. The challenge there is to build a better bot, (but since there's chat involved in the game, you'd better get ready for a Turing test; since that isn't an option, discretion is the better part of valour).

    4. Re:rootkit-like? by mabu · · Score: 1

      That's about as specific as they got about "computer security". The article could have been written by a plumber for all we know. There's no indication from the article, these guys have any experience or knowledge about gaming security. It's as if I watched a tv show about being a doctor and then wrote a book on medical malpractice. Why is slashdot giving these poseurs any attention?

    5. Re:rootkit-like? by MorteSicura · · Score: 1

      This is no BS market speak. Those hackers use rootkit techniques to hide their bot from being detected. They know what their talking about.

    6. Re:rootkit-like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are a lot of ways to walk around that. I used to forward traffic to the server through another computer, which is the one with the cheat-proxy running. They can scan whatever they feel like in my computer, but they won't find anything.

    7. Re:rootkit-like? by stevey · · Score: 1
      The challenge there is to build a better bot, (but since there's chat involved in the game, you'd better get ready for a Turing test; since that isn't an option, discretion is the better part of valour).

      If you were going to massive effort to write a new bot wouldn't it make sense to proxy the chat requests to an instance of Jabber, or similar?

      That way you could have the bot doing bot-things, and if you get a chat a farm-operator could handle all incoming/outgoing chat queries from one central machine.

    8. Re:rootkit-like? by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Easiest way to deal with that kind of Turing test is to make your bot extremely antisocial. Example: Someone chats to the bot, bot replies from list of responses including "STFU n00b!!!!!", "how i mine 4 fish???", and something in a fairly obscure foreign language. Being abusive enough to keep people from trying to chat with you is an easy way to avoid having to code any real conversation.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    9. Re:rootkit-like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This article was written by a writer. Writers are people who write articles. Go crawl back under your rock for a few more centuries, wouldja?

      Rootkit techniques are so-called because they operate at essentially driver access level where the OS can't even manage them, so they don't appear in the OS's process listing. They live and work in kernel space. Another way to do this is to make the UI to the tool as an addon to the game itself, then TSR (Terminate, Stay Resident) the tool and control it with OS messages or something.

      The goal is to get out of the process list. If your app isn't in the OS's process list, no other app will be able to detect it unless it specifically looks for it by trying to call its hooks in memory, which is pretty much guaranteed to crash the system if the tool isn't there.

      Long story short, the article is accurate and you're a dweeb.

    10. Re:rootkit-like? by Rakarra · · Score: 1
      Easiest way to deal with that kind of Turing test is to make your bot extremely antisocial. Example: Someone chats to the bot, bot replies from list of responses including "STFU n00b!!!!!", "how i mine 4 fish???", and something in a fairly obscure foreign language.

      Even that is easy to figure out. And, in most peoples' eyes, using a foreign language is a strike against you. They'll assume that you're a gold farmer living in another country. Unless the language is, say, French or Spanish, they're usually right, too.

    11. Re:rootkit-like? by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      They'll assume that you're a gold farmer, but not that you're a bot. And it makes sense when you don't reply to further questioning, because chatting is not what you do in gold farming sweatshops.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    12. Re:rootkit-like? by ahsile · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I actually used to play a MMO called Asheron's Call about 6 years ago. I played honestly for about a year, and only made it to level 80 or so. It was a real grind to get anywhere. Eventually my grind partner quit and decided to play another MMO, which left pretty much alone. I was a member of a 'monarchy', or guild if you may, but it really didn't help alleviate any of my issues.

      So I switched to another guild which was well known for their botting. You had to prove yourself before you got access to the bot software though, so I got stuck in what they called an 'experience chain'. Everyone would swear allegiance to someone else, and a portion of your XP would be passed up the chain. If you had good enough leadership and loyalty skills the numbers would actually multiply as it passed up. After leveling a new character to about 70 or 80 with the chain, I was allowed access to the bot software. Of course it was against the game's TOS, but we had our ways around it.

      Most of us would run our bots all night farming dungeons, but the admins would show up every once and a while to figure out if we were at the keyboard at all. What we actually did was have all chat communication funneled through and IRC channel that someone was generally watching. Our characters could also be remote controlled from the IRC channel with proper authentication as well. That defeated their ban stick for a while, because it was only illegal to bot when you weren't at the keyboard.

      Eventually the admins got smart and started showing objects to the characters. We were asked to describe the color or what the item was. I do believe it was possible to get around that limitation, but I never stuck around long enough to find out. At about that point I had landed my current job and couldn't devote the time to play any more. And with the botters, you needed to be able to check your character and be available 24/7... even if you weren't actually playing the game all the time.

      So I guess my point is, this probably happens already since we were doing it years ago!

    13. Re:rootkit-like? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, aside from the fact that you're forwarding traffic to a proxy, and your cheat-proxy is cheating.

    14. Re:rootkit-like? by gemcigital · · Score: 1
      hi kwerle,

      Nope. We have code for some of the stealthy rootkit-like bots in the book, but there are some techniques in common use now that we did not include code for. The coolest techniques involve making use of a multi-core system and hardware interrupts.

      It's all real.

      gem http://www.cigital.com/~gem

    15. Re:rootkit-like? by causality · · Score: 1

      Blizzard has a cheat monitor process calls the Warden which scans the active process list for known cheat programs. Hiding from a process scanner is "rootkit-like". It is indeed a war zone out there. I wonder if these guys ever play core-wars.

      My process list is not available to WoW's monitoring process, and I do not use any kind of rootkit-style techniques to arrange that.

      I play WoW on Linux via WINE. Warden isn't the reason why I do it, but I run WoW in its own user account that is never used for anything else. I also use a grsecurity kernel which, among other things, does not allow a regular user to see the running processes of any other user. This has the effect that Warden will see only the WoW client running and cannot snoop on anything I am doing with my main user account.

      I don't do this because I think Blizzard is going to try to spy on me, although when it comes to things like that I am not satisfied that they won't, I am satisfied that they can't. I just generally administer my system from a least-privilege point of view because I consider this to be good practice.

      While the game is running, Warden uses API function calls to collect data on open programs on the user's computer and sends it back to Blizzard servers as hash values to be compared to those of known cheating programs.[1] Privacy advocates consider the program to be spyware.

      This is my way of avoiding such privacy concerns and it appears to be mutually satisfying for both myself and Blizzard. They can run their little cheat scanner and receive a negative result, while I can be confident that it doesn't access anything it has no business accessing.

      I would be interested in knowing whether Windows has a similar option.
      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    16. Re:rootkit-like? by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 1

      The WoW EULA specifies that you MUST speak English on US servers. The GMs can ban you for this tactic.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    17. Re:rootkit-like? by Torvaun · · Score: 1

      Huh. Didn't know that.

      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
  8. Timely information! by ekvin · · Score: 0

    Finally, strategies for stealing Cloudsongs!

    1. Re:Timely information! by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      YOU ZERGED MY CLOUDSONG!!!!1
       
      Oh DAoC...you are *still* the best MMO in existence.

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
  9. Most game companies don't care by Saffaya · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They don't care if their games are rotten with farmers and trading of game assets/currency.

    All they will do is buy external software like GameGard, whose primary function is to hob resources of the customer's PC and make it less stable.

    Thus, the low-end PHB will be able to claim to his boss he is actively fighting the problem, with GameGard's monthly invoice in hand for proof.

    Meanwhile the players will lament about the enormous parasitic-like farmer population, detrimental to the game itself, and in plain view of anyone who actually logs in the game.

  10. Exploits and WOW. by Shivetya · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well after reading the article, following links, and such its obvious the biggest thing they exploited with WOW during the course of writing and selling their book is the name. In other words, unless they had referenced WOW their book would be relegated to the dust bins of book sellers.

    These two seem hell bent on FUD with Blizzard in regards to Warden. I haven't connected the dots but it appears these are either the same people who flew off the handle when Warden changed or are in the same group. Basically take something and use choice wording and catch phrases to imply sinister behaviour where none really exists. IOW - 911 conspiracy hacks read from the same play book. These guys just seem to be on some damn fool crusade against Warden that it borders on silly. The very same people probably don't blink when it comes to handing over their CC/Debit card to someone behind the counter freak out over a company that actually has to take steps to protect the data the players voluntarily entered when subscribing!

    As for WOW itself, location hacks exist as the client and server are not always in synch for these actions. The biggest impact "cheaters" have on WOW is on the non-cheating players. Money transfers between accounts take an hour to complete, sales via the auction house are no longer immediate but instead take an hour, and trial accounts are so restricted that teaching someone to play with one is an exercise in frustration.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Exploits and WOW. by Sta7ic · · Score: 1

      WoW also has the funny distinction of being an order of magnitude larger than the next MMOG out there, for better or worse. It'd be somewhat absurd NOT to have a disproportionately large share of material for a disproportionately popular game.

      Warden's also nettled a lot of people who look into it, even if Joe User doesn't care so long as it doesn't break anything.

    2. Re:Exploits and WOW. by lucifron · · Score: 1

      As for WOW itself, location hacks exist as the client and server are not always in synch for these actions. The biggest impact "cheaters" have on WOW is on the non-cheating players. Money transfers between accounts take an hour to complete, sales via the auction house are no longer immediate but instead take an hour, and trial accounts are so restricted that teaching someone to play with one is an exercise in frustration. You forget about the incessant spam and hacking attempts. Blizzard has 9 million players to help them report spammers, and still can't get those IP addresses banned from the game and official forums..
    3. Re:Exploits and WOW. by Rakarra · · Score: 1
      You forget about the incessant spam and hacking attempts. Blizzard has 9 million players to help them report spammers, and still can't get those IP addresses banned from the game and official forums..

      With a game as ubiquitous as WoW, how do you ban a dynamic IP (what most home IP addresses still are) without banning a large number of innocent subscribers? You really can't. You can ban accounts though, and require that any interaction with the game or the forums require a valid account, and that is far easier to enforce and eliminates most of the collateral damage.

    4. Re:Exploits and WOW. by lucifron · · Score: 1

      With a game as ubiquitous as WoW, how do you ban a dynamic IP (what most home IP addresses still are) without banning a large number of innocent subscribers? You really can't. You can ban accounts though, and require that any interaction with the game or the forums require a valid account, and that is far easier to enforce and eliminates most of the collateral damage. At the moment i believe they do suspend accounts, but it doesn't seem to be working at all.

      It has also backfired big time. Not only are are hacked player accounts a source of gold, but the farmers need them to advertise their services (i.e. spam like crazy), which means that half the links on anything wow-related, including the official forums, lead to something nasty..

      I'm fairly certain that temporarily suspending IP's would be work better. If you, or whoever had that ip before you, are trojaned and miss out on an evening of wow; that's tough luck of course, but there are only so many open proxies -- and botnet access costs real money.
    5. Re:Exploits and WOW. by WNight · · Score: 1

      They wouldn't need any of this if they'd do two things.

      1) Play the game on the server - don't let the client cheat. (Quake-style multiplayer - you press shoot, it checks for ammo)

      2) Don't make the game so pathetic that it can be played by a bot.

      If your game consists primarily of people grinding, they'll want to write a bot. If it consists mainly of chatting with friends while exploring, they won't.

      Instead, rather than actually attempting any infrastructure fixes they find it easier to load your PC with a rootkit that can do anything they want. They could do this without the rootkit, and it doesn't really stop anything as proxy-cheats still work, but they'll never do it as long as people like you are so willing to bend over and take anything, in the name of 'It haz to be that way, cheaters! l0l!'

    6. Re:Exploits and WOW. by gemcigital · · Score: 1
      Just for the record, Greg (my co-author) discovered and outted the Warden. Yep, same guy. I was not involved.

      The techniques in the book are most interesting because they are a harbinger of hacks to come in fat-client (real web 2.0/SOA) software.

      Perhaps you should look at the book?

      gem http://www.cigital.com/~gem

    7. Re:Exploits and WOW. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain that temporarily suspending IP's would be work better

      It appears you do not understand how dynamic address blocking would not work very well - here is a simple example that clarifies the issue.

      Banned person turns off modem for two minutes. Banned address is taken up by the next person that connects to the ISP. Banned person turns modem on again and has a new address.

      Now you could do what spam blacklists used to do by blocking the entire range that ISP has, however that will inconvenience other customers and creates a larger problem than the one you are trying to solve.

    8. Re:Exploits and WOW. by causality · · Score: 1

      With a game as ubiquitous as WoW, how do you ban a dynamic IP (what most home IP addresses still are) without banning a large number of innocent subscribers? You really can't. You can ban accounts though, and require that any interaction with the game or the forums require a valid account, and that is far easier to enforce and eliminates most of the collateral damage.

      I don't understand why this is the only way they are dealing with the problem. What I wish they would do is implement a change so that any player with a level lower than 10 who tries to say a URL (i.e. using /say, or /yell, or talking in any channel) is either flagged so that ANYONE can kill them, even the same faction, OR is just outright disconnected and banned for one hour. Or perhaps they could make it so that trial accounts, which is what spammers use, cannot communicate to anyone in-game except by private message.

      Would these measures completely and perfectly stop all spamming while having absolutely no impact on non-spammers? Of course not. But considering how quickly you can level a character to level 10, and how much more difficult it would be to spam users on any sort of large scale, I would consider this an effective trade-off.

      Remember that with spam, you don't need a perfect solution; all you need is a solution that makes it difficult enough that it's no longer profitable. The first method would require every spammer to actually play the game and fight mobs and do quests long enough to get to level 10, only to spam for a little while and quickly get that account banned. The second method would make them register a full account (and they could be prosecuted for fraud if they use fake credit card numbers or other false information) which I imagine spammers don't want to do. Either way, it would significantly raise the cost of spamming and I am surprised they don't already do something like this.
      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
    9. Re:Exploits and WOW. by AySz88 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that impression is accurate. Dr. McGraw gave Cornell's Association of Computer Science Undergrads a presentation about this topic. (He used the same slides as those available here: http://www.usenix.org/events/sec07/tech/#thurs . I would recommend looking at that presentation, though I don't know how different it is from the one I saw.) He was representing his company, which audits code for security problems, and one of the main points of his talk was that all this stuff being used to make (or thwart) exploits in MMORPGs are also ideas that crop up in other applications. I thought the presentation was interesting and well-balanced, and, to me, it didn't come off as an attack on WoW at all.

      He did admit to us that his pro-security books weren't selling much; apparently, people much rather learn via breaking other peoples' code than fixing their own. (Figures.)

      The increased sales from referencing MMORPGs or WoW might well be padding his pockets, but if it's also helping people to write more-secure code, I say go for it.

    10. Re:Exploits and WOW. by Some_Llama · · Score: 1

      ") Play the game on the server - don't let the client cheat. (Quake-style multiplayer - you press shoot, it checks for ammo)

      2) Don't make the game so pathetic that it can be played by a bot."

      No to mention the exponential increase in server power needed, how do you do this with regards to wall hacks or aimbots? you still need to provide the client with information relating to where the player is located, if the client has that info then it can manipulate the client's responses.

      The only real solution to in game cheating is in game admins, just like referees in sports.

      You can automate it to some (small degree) but ultimately i don't see anyway to completely control everything server side without massive bandwidth and computing power we don't currently have.

  11. Paradigm Shift by cheesethegreat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The only way that online games are going to have a chance at getting away from these issues is with the implementation of skill-based advancement instead of advancement based on accumulated experience/gold. As it stands, a high-level player in many online games doesn't need to have learned any particular skill themselves, but a simple accumulation of wealth via goldsellers to buy high-quality equipment and mindless hack-n-slash, combined with good macros, and they can usually come out on top.

    Contrast this approach with what's seen in something like Jumpgate, where players have to actually develop their skill as a pilot in order to be successful in combat. I'd expect that gold-buying in that game is significantly lower per-capita than in your standard grind games like WoW or LotRO.

    When we pray for the end of goldselling, what we're really hoping for is the beginning of an era where non-transferable capital (the skill you develop from playing the game) becomes the dominant factor in advancement.

    1. Re:Paradigm Shift by Talderas · · Score: 1

      However, you ignore that in every RPG, from Tabletop to MMORPGS, equipment and gear plays a role. A lv10 fighter in D&D with mundane gear is not going to be as good a lv10 fighter in D&D with magical gear.

      In WoW, they have soulbound equipment. There's two types BoE and BoP, BoE is Bind on Equip and BoP is Bind on Pickup. Most of the time the best gear is BoP, meaning you have to actually do something to get it, raid or PvP essentially. Unless you buy a character off of ebay, you had to level it up, which means you should at least know how to play your class. On top of that, the quest rewards in the last expansion are at least half-decent when it comes to running instances, but I digress. In a game like WoW, gear doesn't solely define power. A lv70 warrior with quest greens versus a lv70 warrior in full epics isn't always going to result in the lv70 green warrior losing, the lv70 epics warrior could lost just because he doesn't know how to play. Equipment functions as the optimizer for your character, because you still need the skill to play.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Paradigm Shift by mapsjanhere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know if you've ever played in the end game of a MMORPG - but skill is everything. Your fellow players at the highest level know immediately if you're a phony on a bought or borrowed account. Even if you have the skill with one of your classes, most likely we will know when you're on another toon, simply because it's not up to the standards. It's the fraction of a second your spells are late, the way you miss on hits by bad positioning, the choice of buffs you dole out. You can buy all the gold you want (or all the characters) from the commercial players, but you won't get anywhere at the end. At a level where 50 people have to give 99% of their ability to beat an encounter your lack of skill, even in a grind based game, will stick out like a sore thumb.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    3. Re:Paradigm Shift by Teancum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One of the things that you miss here is the fact that many role-playing games (I'm including pencil and dice games here as well as stand-alone video games and MMORPGs) try to give you the simulation of being something which you decidedly are not. You may be a pencil-necked geek with a host of allergies (or in my case an over weight middle-aged software engineer), but you get into the games so that you can live out some sort of fantasy of being something you are not right now.

      So the "skills" you acquire are something not entirely related to the activity you are doing "in game".

      Still, the comment of a previous poster to your comment here is very appropriate: If you "cheated" your way into gaining a certain position/in game skill level by virtue of a gold farmer or some other hack, you really don't understand all of the subtle methods of using all of the options at your disposal. You certainly won't be able to take on even NPC monsters that would easily be defeated by somebody at your current "in-game" skill level. At the same time, even in a "grind" game (or even more so in those kind of games), you can take somebody with considerable experience in the game and see them excel at achieving in-game ranking even with a brand new character due to their advanced knowledge of techniques used to play the game, including knowledge of various locations and when to fall back and try again some other time.

      Heck, I have actually enjoyed starting out all over again from scratch on a few occasions, just to get a little bit of a challenge back into the game. But I level up oh so much faster than my contemporaries who created brand new accounts with me that they just look puzzled when I walk by a couple of days later being twice or three times their "level". In game experience does matter, and it translates across in a whole bunch of ways.

      Your suggestion that player rankings (combat levels are just another way for players to compare each other) bring about a desire to push their ranking up with real-world cash is certainly something worth mentioning. But in the long run those are artificially inflated rankings anyway. It doesn't deal with the other problems associated with real-world item trading, and IMHO there will always be those who try to find ways to "cheat" the system with cash. That can be through a faster network connection, better computer/graphics card, cheat program that let's you get an attack in 1/2 second earlier, or whatever means you can think of. This has always been the case, even for games like Doom and Quake that didn't even really have levels to compare against. And I knew people who did "cheat" at Quake and were proud of it.

    4. Re:Paradigm Shift by C0rinthian · · Score: 1

      I think you're confusing skill with knowledge.

    5. Re:Paradigm Shift by Hoknor · · Score: 1

      More accurately, if you appear to be lacking in skill, many will assume you are on a bought or borrowed account. Saying skill is everything is not accurate, I don't care how skilled you think you are you will not be completing end game raids naked. This has led to a lot of gear as skill conflation where less well geared toons are seen as having less skill.

    6. Re:Paradigm Shift by Talderas · · Score: 1

      We are not confusing knowledge with skill.

      Skill is utilizing your knowledge in an effective fashion.

      As a level 70 paladin, I have considerable knowledge of WoW, mechanics damage, etc etc. I also know how to apply that knowledge for use with my class skills for the best benefit. That is skill. If I start playing a mage, I may be able to level faster (a skill from knowledge of quests and NPCs), but I won't be able to get the best benefit from my talents and skills without playing the mage class more often, essentially by the time you reach 70 you should have a grasp of how to apply your knowledge within the new class (more skill). Consequently, if I bought an account with a lv70 mage on it, I would not automatically have the knowledge to use the mage class in an effective fashion, essentially skill-less.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    7. Re:Paradigm Shift by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      The only way that online games are going to have a chance at getting away from these issues is with the implementation of skill-based advancement instead of advancement based on accumulated experience/gold.
      Who's skill? The players, or the characters? If the player needs the skill, then it's not so much a role playing game anymore. I like games where I don't have to have the twitch reactions of some kid who's been circle strafing since he was 3 years old. If my character has a high agility score, then I shouldn't have to have one also. If players want real time strategy, then call it MMORTS; if they want twitch games, then call it MMOFPS. But as long as a game advertises itself as MMORPG I expect to deal with character skills instead of player skills.
    8. Re:Paradigm Shift by Frozen+Void · · Score: 1

      I agree, except the skills based approach should be as fun as possible for unskilled players to not drive them off the game.
      The MMORPGs should be more like second life, then massive RPG. User-designed content/scripts/items/areas,etc, lack of statistics which reflect time investment and user-friendly atmosphere with intuitive interface.

    9. Re:Paradigm Shift by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Gold selling is not considered "cheating" in WoW and many other games. Creating an economy means there will be things of value that people trade, eventually paying real-world money for. This is not a cheating issue. If the companies simply sold gold (as they should) it would destroy the gold market.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    10. Re:Paradigm Shift by WNight · · Score: 1

      Doesn't it suck, playing a game where they put more effort into stopping some people from having fun than making it fun for the rest of the people?

      Soul-bound!? Tell me you wouldn't have busted a gut laughing at that pathetic answer before you started playing.

      The answer is a game that's fun at any level. Then literally let people create any character they want and pick their stats/level/etc. Top-level munchkins will run off to the top-level-munchkin dungeon letting people who picked differently play unmolested, and in any fashion they want.

      Then if someone writes a bot, what of it? You can just give yourself as much XP, or gold, as they got, and keep up. Or laugh at them for missing the best content in the game in their rush for power-leveling their collection of numbers. Yay!

      Munchkins wouldn't bother playing, they'd see that they couldn't be the best, or cause anyone any grief, and they'd go away.

    11. Re:Paradigm Shift by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Congratulations, your post is showing just how some people want to turn this country into a bunch of non-competitive pansies. Oh, good boy Johnny, even though your baseball team came in last we're still going to give you a participation trophy.

      Give me a break.

      People like you are all the same, individuals who either cannot compete or don't want to spend the effort to compete, but still think they should be as good as those that do. Complain some more about it

      Just because someone has a bot to level their character up doesn't mean they're going to be better than someone who spends more time doing it themselves, in fact the person that spends their time leveling up their character is going to be a much better player having that learning curve. A player can run an instance or a raid, a bot cannot.

      Quick begging people to give you stuff and go out and earn it.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    12. Re:Paradigm Shift by WNight · · Score: 1

      Your idiot is showing. I didn't complain that I'm emasculated by someone with a higher-level character, even if they bought it.

      I just think that games should be fun. If you like playing at one level, cool. If he likes playing at another, cool. There's no reason why you should be upset because someone isn't spending as much time in the crap as you are. If what you're doing isn't fun, do something more fun.

      Quake is a good game for this. I can jump back into the game, play the low-level maps with just a shotgun, jump to playing higher levels, play as long as I like. This is fun. If I play GTA3 I can steal a lowly cab, go find one of my carefully collected tanks, or turn on cheat codes and go crazy.

      WoW is full of people who gripe about cheaters and gold farmers more than they play the game.

      If these people actually liked playing WoW they'd laugh and say "You're missing the best part!" Instead, they know WoW blows and they wish they could buy gold too, because grinding to get access to a feature is lame.

      If people could just select what they wanted to play, this would be over. You'd have some newbs selecting max-level characters and getting amusingly whacked, some old-timers who really like low-level play, and some people who climb the ladder. That would be a better game. People who played wouldn't be bothered by people who are trying not to play.

      But this will *never* happen because everyone's too busy polishing their little penile substitute. You hear me calling for people doing what they want as a pussification... because I refuse to waste time grinding? As you're camping monster spawns for days to get gold to buy a trinket I'm doing tank-donuts on cop cars in GTA - which of us is acting like a pussy? I take what I want, you take what you're given.

      The real pussies here are those (like you) who are so upset that I might be having fun that you want more rules to make me do exactly the same dull shit you do, because you don't have the guts to quit. Grow up.

  12. article devoid of content by mabu · · Score: 1

    The OP's source article seems to be a prime example of astroturfing. The guy talks in generalities about computer security and gives absolutely no examples. He's just selling his book and the article really says nothing. He also used the phrase "paradigm shift" so you knew there wasn't any real content ahead. Plus, most security people will attest to the fact that any "computer security expert" who has a PhD is laughable. That guy probably couldn't get his parking validated at H.O.P.E.

    1. Re:article devoid of content by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      I was kind of feeling the same thing... Really felt like an infomercial.

      I didn't have too much of a problem with the topics, but the way he gives credit to his books for changing the security world? PLEASE!

      Can anyone say Narcissism? (I'm not sure if I can even spell it) Ok, how about a side helping of hubris? mmm. Mix with [troll sweat] and simmer.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
  13. Security and what I call... the "zerging effect" by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    The problem is a game on the net is exposed statistically to millions of people at any given time, it's no surprise that game companies can't deal with "Zerging effect" (i.e. a term from starcraft where one masses units and over-runs the enemy).

    Game companies neither have: 1) The talent or 2) The resources, to deal with this number of people effectively. Not to mention that, it only takes a few geniuses to post or sell their cheats online for them to spread to everyone else who's interested in them.

  14. Vendor Guards Bank! , seems easy enough. by tacroy · · Score: 1

    Vendor Guards Bank, seems easy enough.

  15. Look, that's the *idea*, people by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The whole idea behind online games is twofold: 1) get the reward: better items and more money, and 2) accomplish objective 1 with as little effort as possible. The whole "solve problems creatively" idea is bunk, and besides if anyone actually did provide problems like that, you'd just search online for the answer anyhow. Everybody likes to be ahead of the game, and nobody wants to plod along the old-fashioned way. A sense that you're better than everyone else is expected, and even essential (and not just in video games).

    Online games (and any game in which you accumulate posessions) are just variations on a Skinner box. Put a gamer in a box, have him peck away at moving about the world, and give him possessions randomly. It's the same sort of thing that makes people sit in front of slot machines for hours. If they *did* make a hackproof game, only a few people would play it and it would fail financially.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:Look, that's the *idea*, people by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Oh, and as an aside, I searched for random reward skinner just to make sure I was remembering correctly what a Skinner box was, and there were fewer results with rats and pigeons - most of the results had to do with online gaming. Scary, eh?

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Look, that's the *idea*, people by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 1

      "If they *did* make a hackproof game, only a few people would play it and it would fail financially"

      Not trying to get personal or troll here, but I completely disagree with you... in order for your statement to be true, this would suggest that the vast majority of MMORPG players were using hacks/cheats.

      Now, if you consider a web site that has maps or quest data to be a cheat, or if you consider those who use add-ons and UI Mods (legal ones) as part of that category, then yeah, I know very few fellow Warcraft players who don't run at least a few mods or occasionally check one of the sites like thottbot, wowwiki, wowhead, alakazam, wowplotter, etc...

      Still, I think when you say "hackproof" (at least how it comes across to me) you're talking about exploits and bots and other items that are against the TOS of the given game, and I just can't agree with that kind of blanket statement.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
    3. Re:Look, that's the *idea*, people by murdocj · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The whole idea behind online games is twofold: 1) get the reward: better items and more money, and 2) accomplish objective 1 with as little effort as possible.

      The rewards are nice. But that's not why I play. I play WoW for the same reason I play any game, to have fun. If I'm not having fun *while I'm playing* it's not worth it, no matter what the reward is. As an example, I do some player vs player combat in one of the zones (Halaa) when the chance comes up. You get tokens for doing this that you can use to buy gear. Well, I've looked at the gear and it's not interesting to me. I do the combat because I enjoy it, NOT because I can grind away and get some uber loot someday.

    4. Re:Look, that's the *idea*, people by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Funny

      If they *did* make a hackproof game, only a few people would play it and it would fail financially. Well, that certainly explains why games like Chess and Go never lasted long.
    5. Re:Look, that's the *idea*, people by IhuntCIA · · Score: 1

      Everybody likes to be ahead of the game, and nobody wants to plod along the old-fashioned way. A sense that you're better than everyone else is expected, and even essential (and not just in video games). I completely disagree with you. If I need to search online for the answer, then I am essentially "playing the book" playing already played, which is in essence of it an blasphemy against the gaming itself: not playing the game but reading about the game, not discovering the world by playing in it, but by reading about it on thottbot, alakazam, etc.. If I wanted to read, I would have bought the damn book, not the game.
      [rant]
      I consider a cheater an person who uses add-ons and UI mods to: modify their /roll to get better items, to make their trinkets instant cool down, to "see" mobs drop before the mob is killed, etc...
      [/rant]

      Online games (and any game in which you accumulate possessions).. [rant]
      In WoW for example, every 3 to 5 months complete skill system is rearranged, or broken by an expansion pack in such way that most of the "easy to get" gear is rendered useless so that most of the players are sent back to grinding zones, instances, new quests, or yet more convenient to gold farmers who provide "cheap" gold for the valuable items sold on auctions.
      [/rant]
      In all of that cheaters get more lucky by means of exploiting the game. Example:
      [xml] [mmorpg]
      Cheaters level faster, cheaters get better drops (and grind less), sell more and make more gold. More gold allows them to buy better gear, that allows them to advance faster in guilds. Higher rank in guilds allows them to get better gear from the guild chest, and that allows them to get better drops and make more gold...
      [/mmorpg] [/xml]
      It is recursive... there is no end. Once a cheater always cheater. It is so sweet to cheat, to be ahead of the game, to be ahead of the game-play.

      All that makes game bitter to play for the players that do not use cheats. I see no fun in games that have cheats / gold-farmers / stock gear. Random drops and custom tailored gear is the good old-fashioned way. The forgotten way.
      Oh, I'm sorry, we are not talking about gaming revolution, we are talking about gaming (MMORPG) industry.
      My bad. Sorry.
  16. Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by eepok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Massively just did an interview with John Smedley and touched upon the issue of farmers/plat sellers and how they are using social hacking to bring in profits and hurt the company.

    Part 1: http://www.massively.com/2008/01/14/a-ces-interview-with-soe-ceo-john-smedley-pt-1/
    Part 2: http://www.massively.com/2008/01/14/a-ces-interview-with-soe-ceo-john-smedley-pt-2/

    SOE owns and operates Everquest, Everquest 2, Star Wars Galaxies, and other MMOs.

    I think the issue of farming is higher on the radar now than it ever has been. The behinds the scenes things are really frustration. A lot of these farmers are essentially stealing from us. What they do is they charge us back all the time. They use a credit card -sometimes stolen, sometimes not - to buy an account key. They use the account for a month, and then they call the credit card company and charge it back. We have suffered nearly a million dollars just in fines over the past six months; it's getting extremely expensive for us. What's happening is that when they do this all the time, the credit card companies come back to us and say "You have a higher than normal chargeback rate, therefore we'll charge you fines on top of that."

    1. Re:Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think the issue of farming is higher on the radar now than it ever has been. The behinds the scenes things are really frustration. A lot of these farmers are essentially stealing from us. What they do is they charge us back all the time. They use a credit card -sometimes stolen, sometimes not - to buy an account key. They use the account for a month, and then they call the credit card company and charge it back. We have suffered nearly a million dollars just in fines over the past six months; it's getting extremely expensive for us. What's happening is that when they do this all the time, the credit card companies come back to us and say "You have a higher than normal chargeback rate, therefore we'll charge you fines on top of that."


      Boo hoo. This is a business opportunity staring you right in the face and you whine about it like a little bitch? Try this:

      1. Sell the game's boxed set with a game card that includes playtime, enough to cover any chargebacks and chargeback fees for a single month. (Basically, pay for 2 months, get 1 month, hide the fee in the price of the boxed set.)
      2. If the first card payment isn't charged back, give the player a "Free Month" (that they already paid for in the price of the boxed set) for being such a "valuable member" of our "online community".
      3. Profit like hell, knowing that chargeback thieves have already paid their dues at retail, and legitimate customers are happy you've "rewarded" them.

      Anybody with a business degree that can't figure this out doesn't deserve to be a CEO. This lack of business leadership may also explain why Star Wars Galaxies tanked into nothing.
    2. Re:Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by Ambiguous+Puzuma · · Score: 1

      Right, because charging more for the initial box won't affect sales and subscriptions.
      Why not take it a few steps further, and charge $400 for the initial box but include two years of play time "free"?

      Actually, the trend is to move in the opposite direction: make the base game play cheap or free (a loss leader) but provide optional in-game enhancements for money. See Maple Story with its 67 million subscribers for an example of how it can work.

    3. Re:Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, brainstorming a bit. Attach an account ID to all objects that can be farmed, if the account is charged back, cancel all the objects.

      I'm sure there are details I'm missing, so what are the flaws with this idea? And can they be fixed?

    4. Re:Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by Teancum · · Score: 1

      This is assuming that the credit card companies will even accept charges from an on-line game company that is having problems even trying to identify those who would use their services fraudulently. There certainly is a very real risk that most electronic forms of payment may not work for game publishers who don't take aggressive actions to stop real-world item trade.

      So yeah, these cards you buy in a retail store may be available... but what if that was the only way to play an on-line game? How many would keep playing?

    5. Re:Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd need to also roll back the transactions associated with that object, recursively, until all other accounts that interacted with that object have been compensated for the object's removal. This could be complicated. You might reverse only the first few degrees of separation from the source account - anyone further away than that was probably just an honest player - but that means the inflationary effect of the gold farmer remains. And of course you can't reverse transactions involving a consumable that has already been used up...

      You'd want to ban any credit card number that did more than one chargeback to the same game. Ban it from the other games the parent company owns, too. (The credit card company may try to say this is against their contract, but I don't see how a contract can both punish you for not catching a crook AND prevent you from catching the crook and still be hold up in court as a valid contract). This won't stop the determined fraudsters, but it also won't hurt someone who was legitimately contesting being overbilled. A cleverer system would also look at names and billing addresses to ban the other credit cards of a fraudster, too. But even the simpler less-aggressive version would still probably block an awful lot of people who were just doing the same thing month after month.

    6. Re:Interview with Sony Online Entertainment CEO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and then they call the credit card company and charge it back. We have suffered nearly a million dollars just in fines over the past six months; it's getting extremely expensive for us.

      Here's another perspective for you:

      I used to play EQ. Eventually, I canceled my account. SoE kept right on billing me. I contacted them to correct their little "oversight". SoE gave me a runaround, requiring data I did not possess before they'd talk to me. They cut that nonsense out only after I contacted Discover and charged-back their fees.

      So take what this asshole, John Smedley, says with a big grain of salt!

  17. The short answer. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes.

  18. Re:A non issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That Islamic virtual reality game youve invented inside your head sounds great. Sign me up.

  19. Cheating in online games by mabu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was a GM in Everquest for several years. I could chime in on my experience, which mostly related to scouting out in-game cheating. We were trained to look for signs of more elaborate types of cheats and report them higher up in the chain.

    In most of these games, the main thing wasn't really "cheating" as much as it was "exploiting" flaws of characteristics of the game's design. On some maps it was possible to "fall through the world" and people could effectively position themselves so they could attack monsters but the monsters could not attack them. This was also accomplished by using creative means to get on top of structures in the game geometry that the designers had never intended to be accessible. There were places for example, where we'd often find PCs on roofs in hostile towns attacking high-level NPCs and due to the pathing, were able to not be counter-attacked. There was a constant cat-and-mouse game trying to find out how they were pulling these things off. It was more interesting than annoying usually. I was always impressed by some of the creative ways people would try to give themselves an advantage.

    Midway into EQ's popularity a number of software programs started to appear. These really blew the lid off the game's integrity. I forget the name of this one utility, but it was a utility that managed to decrypt the game stream, and due to the way the game was designed, when you entered a zone, this program could identify the coordinates of and nature of every NPC and PC in a certain range. SOE's game design, which often sent more info to the client than the client needed to make available to the user, created a situation where once someone decrypted the data, they had access to what was going on. Suddenly rare NPCs were being killed within minutes of appearing, and when a GM appeared in a zone to investigate, the perps knew instantly we were there and would logoff. Again, a cat-and-mouse game erupted where the developers started routinely changing the game's encryption and eventually they curtailed much of this behavior and made it too difficult to use the software. But at its heyday, the cheats were quite impressed. You'd have your main game client, and then you'd have a second computer sniffing the traffic, decoding it and displaying a real-time map of all PCs and NPCs in the zone. Very high-tech. Also very difficult to catch. Since the cheat program wasn't even on the same PC, programs like WoW's "Warden" wouldn't help. The only way you could identify someone cheating was to watch their in-game behavior. When you'd see PCs make a beeline for a rare NPC within seconds of it spawning, you knew something was up.

    Last but not least, in these games, the servers log just about everything. If they want to catch a cheater, the behavior is quite easy to spot. I think the biggest issue with security in MMORPGS isn't being able to catch people cheating, it's trying to figure out how to keep the proper balance between game integrity and profitability. Probably 90% of people playing MMORPGs have broke rules and most of this behavior is on file. The companies cannot afford to take too hard a stance unless the transgressions are creating big problems.

    1. Re:Cheating in online games by JDAustin · · Score: 2, Informative

      The program you mention was ShowEQ. Originally, it was a linux only program so it wasnt used by many. Eventually, someone ported it to Windows and its use increased vastly.

      What really made things bad though was Macroquest II. Even though this required to be recompiled with every new patch, this is what made many of the exploits possible. Even SOE knew how rampant its use was but they would not go after people using MQ for its passive features (ie maps, targeting, healbot macros, etc) but people using it for the active exploiting (ie teleporting, attacking any mob in a zone from the zone line, etc).

    2. Re:Cheating in online games by Reapman · · Score: 1

      "When you'd see PCs make a beeline for a rare NPC within seconds of it spawning, you knew something was up."

      For some reason I had a vision of you as a GM appearing in front of em and using your godlike powers to kick their ass and send em running away.

      Wish that's actually how it worked in these games, would be pretty sweet watchin a GM kick the crap out of some Gold/Gil/Credit farmers.

    3. Re:Cheating in online games by dc29A · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The program you think of was ShowEQ. Also, this was a direct result of retarded game design by Sony where by one dragon can only be killed by one group of people per week, unlike the current crop of MMOGs where everything is instanced and this is no longer a problem.

      Just the way ShowEQ was a direct result of game design flaws in EverQuest, the same way leveling bots are for other games or ingame currency selling for real life money and whatnot. Game design flaws will result in hacks, bots and currency trading.

    4. Re:Cheating in online games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Also, this was a direct result of retarded game design by Sony where by one
      > dragon can only be killed by one group of people per week, unlike the current
      > crop of MMOGs where everything is instanced and this is no longer a problem.

      That's not necessarily bad design. It's a choice.

      Having everything instanced in other games (WoW) has resulted in there being less direct competition between guilds. Guilds on average seem to be less 'hardcore'. With this reduction in competition comes an increase in loyalty, guild hopping is less of an issue because there's nothing to hide. Internet strategy guides all over because of instancing reducing the motivation to keep strategies secret reduce some of the (lol videogame) satisfaction gained from taking a new opponent down.

      Instances did great things for the way I currently have to play (working players require a more structured playing time..), but in no way is it explicitly better than world spawns that must be competed for.

    5. Re:Cheating in online games by eepok · · Score: 1

      Well, instanced zones don't necessarily cure the ails. Recently, on one of the Everquest servers, there have been claims and reason to believe that a small group of characters beat a progression-based instanced mission (a first for the server) when the instanced is tuned for a extremely highly progressed raid of 54 people. Moreover, on the Firiona Vie server, all nearly all loot and gear is transferable between characters, thus any hacking of extremely high content (including instanced zones) turns directly into in-game currency via a sale and that in-game currency turns into real currency by selling the platinum for real money.

      Game design flaws are the not the *cause* of these problems. Bad players cause exploits and design unpreparedness allow those exploits to turn into problems.

    6. Re:Cheating in online games by everphilski · · Score: 1

      Also, this was a direct result of retarded game design by Sony where by one dragon can only be killed by one group of people per week, unlike the current crop of MMOGs where everything is instanced and this is no longer a problem.

      And there are a lot of us who wouldn't have it any other way, thanks. There should be competition for major targets and progression; handing it out for free to any group of N players just cheapens the game.

    7. Re:Cheating in online games by Teancum · · Score: 1

      I played text-based MUDs that had the local server admin create a "God" character (often simply named GOD as well, interestingly enough) that would show up in-game and occasionally talk to players and give "gifts" of various items in-game as well from time to time. Or be able to zap players to a special "holding cell" that would then be a place for "God" to interview you about what was going on.

      I got zapped once to "heaven" and talked about in-game issues on more than one occasion... usually on a friendly basis but on one occasion because the "god" was a total jerk. I do wish it was done more often with the MMORPGs, but sometimes I think they forget the rich heritage that proceeded them, and how often they have had to repeat the same mistakes that were discovered decades ago with similar games.

      Having a "god" kill gold farmers with a single swipe of their "divine" weapon would certainly get some applause from many of those in-game. It would also drive home clearly what happens to rule breakers as vivid in-game examples.

    8. Re:Cheating in online games by FileNotFound · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, it was used extensively. Every single raid guild I've ever been in used it. That's not to say that everyone in the guild did, but a few people did. The scouts, the pullers, the raid leaders, they all had it. Each guild I was in had a 'subgroup', we jockingly refered to it as "BlackOps" and our job was always to get lists of raid targets, and keep an eye on other guild raids so if they wiped we could roll over them. I know other guilds had them too, sometimes we'd be raiding in a very high lvl area that is hard to get into withou a key etc and I'd see someone without any guild tag appear on SEQ and then dissapear again. I knew what they were doing because I was doing the same thing.

      Anyone who used SEQ could easily spot others using it. We'd have scout chars logged off in zones to regularly check on rare spawns and scripts to start EQ, and log in the right char to scan a zone. As in, I'd click an icon my desktop, EQ would start in the background in a tiny window, log in and then log out right away. This gave SEQ time to scan the zone and if the mob that was on the watch list was up, it'd pop up an alert. We tested this, and the whole thing happened quick enough that nobody would even see the char appear in the zone - unless of course they ran SEQ themselves.

      I was on Mithaniel Marr, and I know for a fact that one of the top EQ guilds, Afterlife, used SEQ. It's not just 'beelining' it's that SEQ keeps track of respawn times. Not only do you know what's there, you know what's going to be there in 5 seconds or 1 minute. You see which areas in a zone are taken, where the boss of the LDON dungeon is, where someone's corpse is - even if they themselves have no idea where they died because they got lost. You could see the players without it getting surprised by spawns, making wrong turns, getting adds on their pulls, being unable to find a corpse, clearing an entire LDON dungeon to find a named etc.

      Of course whenever we had unknowns in the zone we'd act deaf and dumb, bumbling about acting like we don't know what's where, run into dead ends, clear unnecessary areas of dungeons. We knew that the other guilds at the very least suspected us of using it and probably reported us for it just as much as we reported them. It was meta-gaming at it's finest an I loved every second of it.

      --
      In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
    9. Re:Cheating in online games by C0rinthian · · Score: 1

      If a group of players can complete a difficult encounter, then how is it 'handed out for free'? Everyone has to do the same thing to complete it, just now those who do it first can't cockblock everyone else.

    10. Re:Cheating in online games by mabu · · Score: 1

      For some reason I had a vision of you as a GM appearing in front of em and using your godlike powers to kick their ass and send em running away.

      That vision wouldn't be unheard of. We had a spell that would literally "kick" a person violently across the end of the zone. We'd also paralyze somebody so they couldn't move. All we really needed was the ability to play very bad MP3s on their client and the cycle would have been complete.

      I knew GMs that engaged in all sorts of torture-like scenarios. Later on this stuff was outlawed. There were hidden dungeons in various zones that were only accessible to GMs. We'd teleport there, and then summon troublesome players. It looked like a prison; it felt like a prison. It was amusing how seriously upset some people would get.

      Let me say though, the vast majority of cheaters were exploiting issues in the game's design. I was never hard on them, being a hacker, it just seemed like a natural thing. Part of playing the game, for example, was knowing how to exploit pathing to your advantage, whether you moved around natural objects or hid behind things to protect yourself. The game designers seemed to get upset if you exploited an aspect of the game they hadn't originally intended to be used in that manner, but it was all the same thing: playing & cheating in many cases. What got me were how many of these "holes" remained exploitable for so long.

      Some of the best cheats nobody ever really knew about... mainly involving creative ways of using factions to perform surgical strikes on select NPCs.

    11. Re:Cheating in online games by Boronx · · Score: 1

      I once wrote a gold farming bot for a MUD and had it auto-give the gold to my main character while I wasn't playing. As I was debugging the bot, I got caught by a Wizard. He teleported both my characters to some dungeon and proceeded to torture them in order to get them to admit they were both ran by the same person. I never understood what kind of deluded person would think torturing a MUD character would get him anywhere.

    12. Re:Cheating in online games by everphilski · · Score: 1

      If a group of players can complete a difficult encounter, then how is it 'handed out for free'?

      1) enter instance
      2) pass or fail
      3) if fail, drop instance and repeat

      In other words, there's no risk, there is no wait and yet the same reward. The experience has been cheapened. Back in the good ol' days, before every fricking mob was instanced like in modern MMO's, yes, there was some level of competition for the major mobs. But this required a few things:
      1) teamwork - a network of friends, perhaps a guild, who are competent the first time around. Because if you fucked up, you knew someone would clear the mob out before you got your corpses back.
      2) timing
      3) just a little bit of luck

      Yes, maybe it took a week or two to get the mob you wanted dead and gone, but you know what? There was a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment that is unparalleled in the newer MMO's.

    13. Re:Cheating in online games by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 1
      It just goes to show you: do not give the client more data than the player should have access to (and conversely, do not trust the client's response without checking it for validity.) (Or the inverse(s): any data you give to the client is accessible to the player (and any response from the client can not be trusted.))

      Don't tell the client "here's everything; figure out what the player can see," tell it "here's what the player can see." It's been true since before Quake wall-hacks, and it's true now.

      --
      Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
    14. Re:Cheating in online games by FileNotFound · · Score: 1

      Two reasons.

      One:
      Because it's not enough to win. Somebody must lose.

      As in, killing uber_dragon_001 is cool and all, but preventing from doing it because your guild killed him first is way better.

      We had a monopoly on Azuregos in WoW for months and drove other guilds insane. We'd kite him until we got enough people to kill him. The amount of drama and hate this caused was pretty much why we did it, most of the loot got sharded. We only stopped because we ended up not having enough time due to new content.

      Two:
      Devaluation of loot.

      Ok. So lets imagine that there is no instancing in WoW. Onyxia's lair is not an instance. It's a simple walk in dungeon. Onyxia respans every 5 days.

      This means that uber_item_001 can only drop every 5 days. This means that you get 72 uber_item_001 per year on a server of 3,000-5,000 people. This means that having uber_item_001 is rare and makes those who have it feel rather 'special' and makes the item worth a lot.

      In WoW it drops every 5 days for every 40 man raid; on a server with 3000 users, this can mean up to 75 raids every 5 days, a total of 5,400 drops per year. That's 5,400 drops per year for a server of 3,000 user. This makes the item absolutley worthless. What good is having an Onyxia cloak when EVERYONE has one?

      --
      In Soviet Russia, the television watches YOU!
    15. Re:Cheating in online games by skywolf3 · · Score: 1

      Well the EQ devs have tried their best within reason to control the datastream, and the program you're thinking of is ShowEQ. Now however, a new program is out, well not so new anymore. It's called MacroQuest and this program basically takes control of the client and allows you to see where all NPCs are, allows you to bot your characters, modify memory locations.. making it so you can breath underwater, run at fast speeds etc. SOme of the more active hacks are warping, moving around in zones by basically teleporting. Currently, EQ is dealing with a massive hack going on called Ghost killing, which is usually combined with a no-delay type hack. Which sets your primary weapon to 0 delay. Your character is able to put out sometimes up to 1000x the damage per second they normally can, and not take damage from the NPC they're killing. I agree with your line, "The companies cannot afford to take too hard a stance unless the transgressions are creating big problems." This is most assuredly the main reason why SOE has not clamped down on much of this. I don't have any hard facts or numbers, but my best guess is that over half of EQ players have used MacroQuest or are using, and a smaller percentage of them have or currently are involved in the GK/ND exploits. Some people would even say EQ's sales have increased since GK/ND, but remember, these are just rumors and guesses.

    16. Re:Cheating in online games by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Just to be clear, MacroQuest itself does not support active hacks which alter the client or server game state like ghost killing, warp, attack, or speed hacks. These active hacks are added by third parties through compiled plug-ins which are independently maintained and distributed. The MacroQuest developers go out of their way to hinder these plug-ins and go so far as to remove data structures which facilitate them when they can and forbid their dissemination or discussion in the MacroQuest forums and documentation.

      What MacroQuest does do is provide in game mapping and radar, UI enhancements, and allow control of the client through scripts or plug-ins for automation. Over time SOE had added many of the UI enhancements MacroQuest provides directly to the EQ client.

    17. Re:Cheating in online games by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Anyone who used SEQ could easily spot others using it. We'd have scout chars logged off in zones to regularly check on rare spawns and scripts to start EQ, and log in the right char to scan a zone.


      We did this in my EQ guild without using ShowEQ by having members level up tracking classes (druids and rangers mostly although occasionally feign death classes were used for especially dangerous areas where direct visual observation was viable) and place them into targeted zones. In some cases, this involved considerable effort to gain levels, keys, and flags for toons that would be essentially stationary not to mention actually getting them into position which was sometimes a guild effort in itself.

      Some of the more technically adept of us eventually used ShowEQ as well (it was Linux only at the time) but those astute enough to recognize the risks still used tracking classes to preserve plausible deniability.
    18. Re:Cheating in online games by Brownstar · · Score: 1

      What good is having an Onyxia cloak when EVERYONE has one

      It was useful because you needed it to Complete BWL.

    19. Re:Cheating in online games by Teancum · · Score: 1

      Teleporting a player to a location that has no exit, nor can you exit from if you log out is nearly as effective as simply deleting the account. And it sends the message clearly that they have been caught.

      I know, it has been tried elsewhere nor is this really a new concept.

      BTW, did this "wizard" get the information he was looking for?

      For myself, I rarely got so invested in a MUD character that I couldn't just walk away from the game and move on elsewhere, nor did I really get into all of the hacks and gold farming. I was there to have fun, and hacking the interface just wasn't a big deal.

    20. Re:Cheating in online games by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      In SWG they've got an even more satisfying solution to the farmers: flag offender for PvP, followed by a server-wide announcement of the offender.

      "Plague of locusts" pretty much summarizes what follows.

    21. Re:Cheating in online games by Yosho · · Score: 1

      handing it out for free to any group of N players just cheapens the game.

      "Cheapens the game"? Come on, this isn't a work of high art, it's a game. It's supposed to be fun. How does making an item only obtainable once per week or one group of people actually make the game more fun? One group of people gets to stroke their egos about how they got lucky enough to get it, everybody else gets more frustrated that they wasted another week trying to get the drop, only to lose it again due to bad luck. They're not "handing it out for free" unless the dragon is so easy that one person can kill it with his eyes closed.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    22. Re:Cheating in online games by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      But Everquest literally start enforcing a *line* to kill the dragon, banning people who broke in line. What a farce.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    23. Re:Cheating in online games by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      That was called Odin's Eye, impossible to detect because it ran on a Linux client in promiscuous mode. It was very handy on those impossible hunts, like the Ancient Cyclops.
      I'm sure it was overused by many. I had it, and enjoyed knowing if the uber-rare spawn was up and where. I didn't care to use it for regular gaming at all. But be damned if i was going to wait at a spawn point for a week straight to try and get the first shot in on that over-ganked bastard. I'd rather log in every night at 3am and scan Odin to see if he's up.

    24. Re:Cheating in online games by Boronx · · Score: 1

      I understand the teleport, but he was putting my guys on the rack, sticking them with hot pokers etc. He did not get the information he was looking for (which was hardly in dispute since I didn't spoof IP addresses). I had great fun pretending that the characters didn't even know each other all the same. Maybe this was just his way of roleplaying a "we will ban you" warning, but I think he was just sadistic. He did ban me after about an hour of interrogation.

  20. Games with Hackers/Code Explorers by Teancum · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of the things that needs to be remembered here about all of this concern about game hacks, bot players, gold sellers, and other nefarious aspects of the MMORPG universe is that a considerable amount of what happens here is just sheer intellectual curiosity.

    Face it, network packets are for many software developers hardly a mystery, and trying to reverse engineer the communications protocols between a game server and a client is hardly the most challenging task in computer science. If the game publisher decides to encrypt the communication in some way, that encryption is easy to reverse engineer as well... especially if you have the software for the client on your own machine. It may crack up the skill level a little bit if the "hacker" has to decompile the client in order to find the encryption mechanism, but that just makes it all that more of a prize to win and find out.

    For several of the on-line games that I play, I'll admit that I've been tempted to try this myself just to see how it was done. And there are major communities who love to do this stuff. For example, the game Runescape has a fairly good group of people who have tried to reverse engineer the communications protocols, and have gone so far as to recreate the server software itself and re-implement a client using the same protocol. One excellent example is Moparscape (Warning: click on this link at your own risk... these are real hackers here!) This is not the only server like this, I should add.

    That real-world cash is also injected into the need/demand for these sort of reverse engineering efforts is really just icing on the cake for many of these individuals who get into this activity.

    How you can get rid of this "game about a game" effort in terms of an arms race between the software publisher and the hacker community trying to reverse engineer the communications protocol may be something worth investigating. I'm certain that, as usual, the game industry is probably far more secure in its communication protocols than most other "real-world" activities like bank transactions and electronic voting, perhaps even military communications. This would be as a result of the vested interested of those young enough to have the patience and determination in order to hack this communications system.

    I'm also certain that even the software developers who write these games have a fun time trying to come up with strategies in order to thwart the hacker community. For them, it is a fun intellectual exercise as well, especially when you are going up against people brighter than you are. So in this sense, it is a sort of chess game with slightly higher stakes on the line. And once a "hacker" has obtained all of this arcane knowledge... what are they supposed to do with that hard-won knowledge? (besides give themselves the best equipment in the game.)

    1. Re:Games with Hackers/Code Explorers by tknd · · Score: 1

      I'm also certain that even the software developers who write these games have a fun time trying to come up with strategies in order to thwart the hacker community. For them, it is a fun intellectual exercise as well, especially when you are going up against people brighter than you are.

      The common mistake I have seen with these types of games that simulate worlds are that they give the clients too much information. That is if the client game software only allows me to see things within 1000 units, the protocols are actually giving me 2000 units (or more) of information. Indeed, there should be some buffer above what the client should be able to see to account for small network latency issues but not on the scales that I've seen with the games.

      So given that, I'm convinced that the game companies are not all that interested in securing their game. For them it is an extra cost. If they make their game protocol wide open in plain text yet the game-play is the equivalent to the most secure scheme, the players will still blindly buy the game. If fact, the players probably won't care that the exploits are possible until the cheating becomes widespread.

      Also don't forget that game companies are businesses and probably have a PHB with an MBA at some point in their chain. As such they will not always act rationally for your own benefit. If cheating remains at 1% of the population, banning that 1% will change their revenue from $1 million to $0.98 million (cheaters have multiple accounts), and the cost of cracking down on the cheaters is $100,000 (hire more GMs, tell the dev team to make the game more secure), you can sure bet they are going to let those cheaters slide.

    2. Re:Games with Hackers/Code Explorers by gemcigital · · Score: 1
      This is a nice posting. Do note, however, that most game hacks against MMORPGs do not involve network-level packet twiddle. Instead, most attacks involve reversing the actual client program and manipulating that. It's a new paradigm (and one not very familiar to most computer security people).

      gem

      http://www.cigital.com/~gem

  21. Economics by DJ_Adequate · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That, I think, is my biggest complaint. Properly designed economies would go a long way to reduce the incentive to cheat. But WOWs economy, especially lately, is spectacularly broken. Most raw materials are worth more than anything you can craft out of them. Low-level items are either useless and impossible to sell, or--if useful--people with high level alts have priced them at a range no new-user can ever afford. I would suggest MMORPG designers spend less time on the technical aspect of the cheats, more time on the internal game economics that motivate them. And no, it's not really the grinding. Just the economy. Raw materials + labor should always have greater value than the raw materials alone, for example.

    1. Re:Economics by CensorshipDonkey · · Score: 1

      Raw materials + labor should always have greater value than the raw materials alone, for example.


      In any system where the real labor is the time getting spent accumulating materials, the "labor" is a 10 second long combine activated by a single button push, the "labor" is not adding much value.
    2. Re:Economics by spikedvodka · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: I am a PlaneShift Dev.

          I will agree that economics is one of the hardest things to "Get Right". "What is the grind worth?" is the biggest question of all of them, and along with that "How do we make it valuable enough for the advanced players, but still accessible enough for the new players" I like to think that we get it right, but we keep tweaking it.

      If you play, let us know how you think we are doing

      --
      I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
    3. Re:Economics by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But WOWs economy, especially lately, is spectacularly broken. Most raw materials are worth more than anything you can craft out of them. Low-level items are either useless and impossible to sell, or--if useful--people with high level alts have priced them at a range no new-user can ever afford. ...

      Raw materials + labor should always have greater value than the raw materials alone, for example. Economy is a funny thing. The value of something isn't always straight forward.

      Raw materials have more value because well-funded individuals need them to grind up their crafting skill not because they need the actual items the raw materials are being used to create. The end products don't sell well because there's too much supply for the demand - not because they're necessarily useless. You can tell this is the case because non-crafted low level items (that can't be mass produced like crafted items) will fetch premium prices if they have the right stats - as you noted.

      This isn't a flaw in the various economies of WoW worlds. It is just how economies work. And the fact that a lot of people are interacting in these economies without paying much attention to what's going on.

      Crafting is a great example of this. My advice to all new players is to NOT get in to crafting. Pick two gathering professions (or a profession like enchanting that gives you something akin to gathering - disenchanting items in to raw components - but ignore the crafting aspect). Spend all your up-and-coming levels selling or trading in raw supplies (either in the AH, suppling mats to crafters to make you items you want and giving the crafter a "free" skill point, or being the go-to guy for your guild's supply needs). Once you're high leveled and established, THEN it's time to decide on whether you really need to craft items. If so, you can better afford it (and you can give a financial leg-up to all the other gatherers feeding the market like you did). If not, you've saved yourself from the expense of training for a skill that's probably well represented in an already over-crowded market.
    4. Re:Economics by WNight · · Score: 1

      So it's an accurate economy, but not a good one for a game.

      They need to let you craft things of real use, and build demand into the game.

      In theory, not every being in the game world is going to be running around killing monsters, they'll be gardening and such. This unseen majority should be a far bigger force in the game economy than players, or the world would have already shifted to not value the crap PCs used to make and they'd be making something else.

      In other words, if the players really are such a big part of the economy, then it should be very unstable. Craft 50 things and ruin the market for them.

    5. Re:Economics by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Crafting is a great example of this. My advice to all new players is to NOT get in to crafting. Pick two gathering professions (or a profession like enchanting that gives you something akin to gathering - disenchanting items in to raw components - but ignore the crafting aspect).

      This is terrific advice, and have used it on several characters to easily ensure that they could buy their mounts at the level at which they became available (except epic flying mount of course). In fact easily enough that while leveling I could buy gear upgrades off the AH, including the occasional blue.

      I'd recommend against using enchanting as a "gathering" skill, though. The main reason is that while herbalism, mining, and skinning all take something that otherwise has no value (herb nodes, mining nodes, and beast corpses respectively), enchanting takes something that already has value (green, blue or purple drops) and turns them into something that may or may not actually be more valuable. While it's great for melting a bind-on-pickup instance drop or useless (and low vendor value) quest reward, all those BoE greens you find can be sold on the AH for around as much as the typical enchanting reagent.

      Herbalism or mining in addition to skinning seems to work best. That way you only need to use one kind of radar to find the nodes, and you not only get extra profit from the endless amounts of beasts you will be killing, you'll also profit from the trails of beasts that -other- people leave behind! I personally take a perverse pleasure in tracing the steps of an opposite-faction player killing in the same area and skinning all their corpses, and give them a /wave when I catch up to them.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    6. Re:Economics by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      I'd recommend against using enchanting as a "gathering" skill, though. The main reason is that while herbalism, mining, and skinning all take something that otherwise has no value (herb nodes, mining nodes, and beast corpses respectively), enchanting takes something that already has value (green, blue or purple drops) and turns them into something that may or may not actually be more valuable. While it's great for melting a bind-on-pickup instance drop or useless (and low vendor value) quest reward, all those BoE greens you find can be sold on the AH for around as much as the typical enchanting reagent. Excellent point! Enchanting is tricky and probably not the right choice for the new player (as I implied). The trick to disenchanting being profitable is understanding the value of the whole item vs. the average value of it's components. And then getting lucky and receiving the higher value components from the disenchant.

      It is possible. I often buy higher-quality (green) items from other players at the Auction House, disenchant them, and then sell the components at a profit. But that's because the player put the item up at a low enough price and I already have a pretty good idea of what the item will produce and the subsequent component worth. That's not information a new player is likely to have.
    7. Re:Economics by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      So it's an accurate economy, but not a good one for a game. OK. Fair point. Accuracy doesn't always make for fun.

      They need to let you craft things of real use, and build demand into the game.

      In theory, not every being in the game world is going to be running around killing monsters, they'll be gardening and such. This unseen majority should be a far bigger force in the game economy than players, or the world would have already shifted to not value the crap PCs used to make and they'd be making something else.

      In other words, if the players really are such a big part of the economy, then it should be very unstable. Craft 50 things and ruin the market for them. Your example of crafting 50 items is actually dead on. That's the problem. A single [Gauntlet of Wonder] might be valuable because it has exactly the stats any, say, Warrior wants. When 50 people put them on the market, all trying to undercut the previous guy, then the market plummets. When the [Gauntlet of Wonder] is a beginner's crafting exercise, the market bottoms out. It doesn't matter that its what every Warrior wants - every Warrior already has one or can get one for cheap because they're so plentiful.

      The problem here is that the economy is really player focused. It has no real interaction with the fantasy world in which the players are running around (other than providing targets that drop things to sell to each other). NPCs will buy items - but at rates that are entirely out of touch with the player economy. Having said that - there ARE a few examples where vendors can be a good source of income. One of my first characters was a skinner / leather worker. I was able to pay for my first mount largely with funds made from selling crafted headbands to vendors. Although a large part of that success was due to a quest area that yielded a constant source of the right grade of leather. Would it ease the pain if more of these opportunities were built in to the NPC vendor economy? I seem to remember UO did more to encourage this sort of thing but my memory is hazy on how effective it was.

      One corollary to my previous advice... if you're going to craft something for coin, pick a profession that produces consumable items. Crafting swords and armor is all nice - but those are single-purchase items and a rough market to get involved in. However, things like potions are constantly being used by the tweak-thirsty public. The guy who buys 5 healing potions will need another 5 much sooner than he needs another sword. You'll still be facing stiff competition from the throng of other consumables peddlers out there - but you'll all be feeding a much greater demand and are much more likely to get a decent price for your efforts.
    8. Re:Economics by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Every major patch revision X.X.x has an economy adjustment. Your view of the economy is skewed. There's nothing special about the old high pop server economies with multiple ppl running around with multiple 70s and plenty of cash to burn. Gold buying is not even considered "cheating" (not in violation of the TOS or any rule), further inflating the pricing. Start/transfer to a NEWER, LOWER POPULATION server and all will be as you would expect.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    9. Re:Economics by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Properly designed economies would go a long way to reduce the incentive to cheat.

      Unfortunately EVERY mmorpg economy is BROKEN. Once you allow infinity to appear on side of the equation, inflation WILL happen.

      i.e. Since there are an infinite amount of (raw) materials, and an infinite supply of gold based on players selling said items (raw materials, weapons, armor, or even vendor trash), and since players can always spend their time to either acquire items to transfer items for money, your economy is broken. There is nothing a designer can do about, except control the time it will take.

      The only real solution is to have BOTH a fixed amount of materials, and a fixed amount of gold. The problem is, most players wouldn't find that fun in the long run -- they expect that if they put the time in, they will be rewarded (via money.)

    10. Re:Economics by WuphonsReach · · Score: 1

      Most raw materials are worth more than anything you can craft out of them.

      The reason for this is that there are high-level items (Primal Mooncloth, etc) that a crafter can create for themselves. A lot of people wait until 60-70 to start working on their crafting skills in order to create those items. Which means that at low levels, you're competing against level 70s on the Auction House for materials. Since a L70 has a *lot* more gold then you do and can make it a lot easier and a lot faster, guess who ends up setting the Auction House price?

      (Which is basically that, as a low level crafter, you're not the customer demographic that the sellers of raw materials are competing for. They're going to sell to whoever is willing to pay them the highest price.)

      Low-level items are either useless and impossible to sell, or--if useful--people with high level alts have priced them at a range no new-user can ever afford.

      There's almost no such thing as a useless item (greens/blues/purples) in WoW. Even if it doesn't have optimal stats, wear it! Or sell it, or disenchant it. Stop worrying about having the "best" gear, as long as you have "good enough" gear, you'll do fine until you start hitting the 10/25/40 man raid instances in the end-game.

      If you're pissed off about prices on the Auction House - don't buy gear there! Go out, adventure, and see what drops of its own accord. Go look for quests that reward you with gear (75% of them are soloable, the rest are probably being worked on by half a dozen other people who will gladly group up to complete it). In the meantime, take advantage of the outrageous AH prices by selling any good gear that you find there. Take advantage of someone else's greed and net yourself a little coin.

      Raw materials + labor should always have greater value than the raw materials alone, for example.

      You can hold your breath and wish all you want, but when the creation of an item takes no more effort then putting the items in your bag and hitting "create", it is *never* going to happen. EQ2 tried this approach (you had to "combat" with the crafting system in order to create items of the highest quality and stats) where it would take you an hour to create a stack of food. Sure, it resulted in higher prices for finished crafted goods, but eventually crafters got bored so they changed the system.

      And overall, I'd argue that the economy in WoW is mostly working. You obtain loot drop X which you wish to exchange for loot drop Y. If "X" is worth more then "Y" on the AH, you'll have no problems. If "X" is worth less then "Y", you'll need to go obtain additional loot drops in order to afford item "Y".

      --
      Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
    11. Re:Economics by splutty · · Score: 1

      2 mods: Auctioneer and Enchantrix. These two combined will give you a very good insight into just how much a certain item is worth on the Auctionhouse, and what it might disenchant to. This then gives you a base point as to how much it'd be worth disenchanted.

      I've used this combination for 2 years or so now, and you'd be surprised at how few items there are that are actually worth more being sold than being disenchanted.

      --
      Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
    12. Re:Economics by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      2 mods: Auctioneer and Enchantrix. These two combined will give you a very good insight into just how much a certain item is worth on the Auctionhouse, and what it might disenchant to. This then gives you a base point as to how much it'd be worth disenchanted.

      I've used this combination for 2 years or so now, and you'd be surprised at how few items there are that are actually worth more being sold than being disenchanted.


      Yeah, I used both those mods, they're basically a necessity if you're going to be enchanting.

      The thing is, even if you figure out that a given item is worth -more- if you disenchant it, the fact is that it was already worth something to begin with. Your profit is merely the extra value you get by disenchanting. That profit is rarely more than the value of the item to begin with, plus the value of whatever you would have picked up with a gathering skill in the course of getting the disenchantable item.

      Sometimes you score big, but overall gathering skills are better money makers. The nice thing is that enchanting is in reality a trade skill, though as a trade skill it's ahuge money sink. In part because selling the enchants is so hard... I could have sworn Blizzard said they were going to implement some kind of 'enchanting stone' that you could create then sell on the AH. That would have made things so much easier.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    13. Re:Economics by splutty · · Score: 1

      There is one thing that sets apart auctioning off an item and auctioning off enchanting materials though, and that's the deposit you need to make.

      For an item it's 10% of the vendor sales price over 48 hours (IIRC), and for enchanting materials it's 0.

      So you can put your enchanting materials up over and over again, without ever incurring a loss in the process of putting it up for auction.

      This is especially true with items that vendor for say 10g, give you enchanting mats worth 20, don't auction at all (due to them being useless). You wouldn't want to auction it to begin with due to the high deposit to begin with.

      --
      Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
    14. Re:Economics by GaryPatterson · · Score: 1

      In part because selling the enchants is so hard... I could have sworn Blizzard said they were going to implement some kind of 'enchanting stone' that you could create then sell on the AH. That would have made things so much easier.

      I saw something about this recently in a Q&A about the Lich King expansion.

      (five minutes of googling...)

      Some rumours

      (five minutes more...)

      Ah! Found it!
      Blizzcon forum

      Q: Why do Enchanters have to stand around Org and spam chat channels instead of put items in AH? (applause)
      A: Was originally designed for player interaction. Didn't work out quite as well. We still like the player interaction and may be keeping it on the higher enchants, but we are talking about going to an item based system. (applause)


      That's as strong an indication as we're likely to get, but it's certainly not a definite. Still, we can hope.

  22. "Halting State" by Dirtside · · Score: 1

    For a well-written novel on this exact topic, check out Halting State by Charles Stross.

    --
    "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
    1. Re:"Halting State" by An+ominous+Cow+art · · Score: 1

      An interesting book, and I enjoy Stross's stuff in general, but the constant use of second person present tense got old pretty quickly for me. Hmm, Wikipedia says it was an homage to the Adventure games. I didn't think of it that way while I was reading it... I guess that makes me feel a little better about it.

    2. Re:"Halting State" by Dirtside · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it took me a few chapters to get used to the second-person thing, but then it felt natural after that and I stopped noticing it.

      I've noticed that he tends to write almost all of his books in third-person present tense, though, instead of past tense. And I like it, it gives the story more immediacy, like I'm watching it happening.

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  23. Quote by brkello · · Score: 1

    Sometimes the quotes at the bottom of the page are so amazingly appropriate: "If only one could get that wonderful feeling of accomplishment without having to accomplish anything."

    --
    Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    1. Re:Quote by MRe_nl · · Score: 0

      Sometimes the ads at the top of the page are also amazingly appropriate:
      "3D Video Metal Detectors
      Manufacturer of Gold Detectors And Ground Search Products GPR + LR + Dwww.OKM-GMBH.uk".

      --
      "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
  24. development or hardening... ? by deviceb · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Currently i'm playing a new game, it just hit open beta about a month ago. Shaiya online. It's a great game for a free to play MMO. Already some hacks have been spotted, but for the most part the hacks are out of view..
    My gripe as with most MMOs is the rate of development. Players always will out pace the game development.. and i would rather have the developers focusing on the game, and not fixing flaws. -as weird as that sounds. Most studios do not have the man power to address issues quickly. -blizzard and the like is a while different story
    This brings up the reason why companies use software such as Gameguard, or even Steam...
    -and i think that unfortunately.. this is the future of online gaming, outside entitys trying to secure the game.

    Back to the EQ GM comment. -Active GMs have been the only way to properly address issues in game. Once EQ was picked up by Sony the GM count dropped, and in game quality did also.
    my 2 cents.

    --
    Kill your TV
  25. Skill doesn't help by mark_jabroni · · Score: 1
    First of all, skill required to play MMORPG's is vastly underrated. The reason is simple : everyone plays so much that, on average, everybody is already very skilled. You simply couldn't throw an inexperienced WoW player into a serious raiding environment and expect them to succeed because they have gear/money/macros.

    Secondly, Puzzle Pirates is a skill-based MMOG and there are still plenty of cheats and scams.

    1. Re:Skill doesn't help by C0rinthian · · Score: 1

      And again, You are confusing knowledge with skill. Playing WoW at the high level requires a decent chunk of knowledge. The actual mechanics of gameplay are quite simple.

    2. Re:Skill doesn't help by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1
      Application of knowledge is skill. You're only fooling yourself if you think otherwise. It doesn't matter how simple the mechanics of gameplay are, it requires some non-zero amount of skill to learn what they are, and how to use them appropriately.

      Saying that playing WoW well doesn't require skill is like saying driving doesn't require skill. They're both the same kind of skill: applied knowledge.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
  26. How game developers react to security warnings... by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

    First they ban your account and then they fix if and when they get around to it.

  27. Security in MMORPGs? by Kazymyr · · Score: 4, Funny

    I find security in MMORPGs to be as bad as you can possibly imagine. I get killed all the time, and there's never any police around to report the crime to. Don't get me started.

    --
    I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet -Stanislaw Lem
  28. Re:I fucked a hooker on my lunchbreak yesterday. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just wait until you get sex WITHOUT paying for it. It's even better!

  29. game developers by conspirator57 · · Score: 0

    don't write exploitable code.

    it doesn't happen.

    everyone knows this.

    next topic; move along.

    --
    "If still these truths be held to be
    Self evident."
    -Edna St. Vincent Millay
    1. Re:game developers by jjohnson · · Score: 1

      Wow! That's brilliant! It's even better than your advice on stocks to "buy low, sell high"!

      --
      Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  30. Great Resources on Game Security by miller60 · · Score: 1
    If you're interested in game security and RMT hacks, check out the Play No Evil blog by Steven Davis of Secure Play, which focuses almost exclusively on security in online games. As an example, yesterday he had a post about the real reason game companies care about gold farming - which is not ethics or impact on game play but payment fraud and chargebacks.


    Also, the authors of Exploiting Online Games have a sample chapter available, and Usenix has a video of one of Gary McGraw's presentations on their web site.

    1. Re:Great Resources on Game Security by mckinnsb · · Score: 1

      Thanks. I really appreciate that, I'm going to probably read both of those blogs every day. Gary McGraw gave a presentation at the college I went to (Boston College), and he is a really entertaining and personable guy with slide shows that actually aren't completely pointless. He impressed me so much that I applied to work at Cigital, and was really intending to work there, but after the second phone interview (both of which went well, i was pending for a third) something very personal came up and I had to tell them I couldn't move to Virginia for a year for Gary's "boot camp". I've kicked myself in the ass every day since about it. Oh well, family is family. I will probably try to get a job there eventually though, all the people I talked to there were really cool and intelligent. Gary is a good guy, and I think hes onto something with the "low resolution server side security vector". Plus, when I was telling people over the summer that I was going to be a professional hacker, there were some girls who actually though it was *cool*. Like I was a *renegade*. Hell *yes*. If you have any more security blogs or security in gaming blogs, post them slashdotters :) I need reading material :)

  31. Those who would give up Essential Liberty... by slashdotmsiriv · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    to purchase a little Temporary Security in MMORPGS, deserve neither Liberty nor Security

  32. What about greed, laziness and other reasons? by jhRisk · · Score: 1

    I normally see the grind, time or challenge based explanations for MMORPG cheating but what about the folks who do it because, like in life, they seek to get as much as possible for as little investment as is necessary? The above three reasons are certainly valid and although I've never seen someone quantify it I'd imagine it'd be a reflection of real life, no? Therefore it wouldn't be a crazy assumption to believe most do it out of that difficult to characterize in one word combination of greed, laziness and perceived online omnipotence.

    Also and much like rubber-necking, that "good" feeling a lot of folks get when cheating or in any way "getting over on someone" cannot be understated. Perhaps simply that they played on the dark side and lived to tell?

    The funny thing about it all is that the knowledge, scripts, etc. are created by the comparatively few that are technically capable of the work and often just doing it for the challenge. They then foolishly disseminate it to the public eventually making it prevalent enough to be caught on radars. It's like when high school nerds show jocks how to cheat on an exam to win cool points and end up screwing themselves.

    --
    That's just my POV... no more, no less.
  33. The book by Sir_Sri · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I got a copy of their book as part of our multimedia research group. The first half is a reasonably approachable treatment of networked application type security issues, sure it's constantly making reference to games and gambling but in an era where most of our students in Comp Sci have played, or do play online games it makes for an understandable example. I would say we pulled a bunch of stuff out of that for our web apps course and some of it for our general software engineering courses. The latter half, with a rather extensive focus on world of warcraft, and it's security from warden (which now transmits encrypted so an 'out of the box' view of the book and their software governor won't do you much good) is insightful, if somewhat traumatic to try and read. Unless you're really inclined to go disassembling your online game much of the benefits of this book can be found elsewhere, but for any game developer it's probably worth reading over a couple of hours to get an appreciation for the sort of attacks you'll face and someone elses take on the same problem in case there's something you've missed.

    1. Re:The book by gemcigital · · Score: 1

      Just for the record, the fact that the Warden uses (weak) crypto to try to protect its data transmission over the network does nothing at all to stop the Governor program. The silly thing about the Warden is that it runs on the client it is supposedly monitoring in user mode. The Governor can be run with higher privilege, interpositioning using Detours in the kernel. That means it can perform a "lobotomy" on the Warden. Most of the exploits that are interesting in our book have to do with the fact that too much state data is exposed to shenanigans on the client. Expect much more of this in the future. gem http://www.cigital.com/~gem

  34. Robots will be robots by eyenot · · Score: 1

    The MMORPG "Runescape" attempts to thwart automated player clients by imposing itself at random intervals to put real human intelligence to the test. You could see a lot of hacks and anti-hacks this way: considerable time is spent designing something on computers and (inevitably to a great extent) for computers as well; but for some strange reason they are marketed toward human players, many of whom (understandably) would be just as interested in having their computer playing in their stead; so the creators try to come back and slightly increase the demand for normal human involvement, without the aid of computers. Which is ultimately self-defeating considering this is the stance they take as the logical end of what they set out to do which was completely the opposite. Strangely enough, you don't end up with so many problems in games that really stimulate the imagination and intellect, the kind that appeals to all ages and strikes people as "addictive". Frankly, that the biggest problems of the self-contradictory sort are to be found in MMORPG's isn't all that surprising. Role-playing is based on depersonalizing and dehumanizing the player to begin with, sticking them with formulaically limited means of solving problems that are yet supposed to somehow reflect their "selves" in "reality"; "robots will be robots".

    --
    "Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
  35. Tale of a WoW botter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    MMO's strike at the heart of the American lifestyle - the struggle to be #1. This isn't Mario where at best you beat the game in 20 minutes and put a video on youtube. You build up a character to become supreme then show it off.

    Problem is the path to superiority in MMO's isn't done through skill, but rather time invested. Bots are not good players, but are good at investing time.

    When MMO's hit mainstream that reward skill before time, then the bots will dissapear.

  36. Now this is a good interview by angus_rg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Do the security features in Windows Vista -- such as limits on HD playback and signed drivers -- help in fighting cheaters?".

    I'm glad I'll be able to use my modded character over an HDMI cable, and I can install a 3rd party device without a signed driver to get around this.

    Who thinks up these questions?

  37. world leaders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    don't disagree with each other

    no wars.

    everyone knows this.

    next topic; get real.

  38. Guild Wars is way cool by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    That's exactly the same reason I went to Guild Wars too. If I step away for a while, or do some grinding, I don't feel like I'm wasting my money. Not only that, but I think GW is a much more fun game than WoW too (I know, I'll burn in Hell for such blasphemy). I like the fact that it has an underlying epic storyline, I love the graphics (WoW is a little too cartoony for me), the henchies are nice if you're just soloing, the ability to easily move between servers makes it easier to trade and play with friends, and the general atmosphere in the cities seems a lot friendlier than WoW.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  39. Then I guess that .... by mark_jabroni · · Score: 1

    Playing chess requires no skill? Since the gameplay mechanics are so simple -- in fact far simpler than WoW?

    Knowledge is an aspect of skill -- they are not opposites. If you disagree please direct your comments to the people who write dictionaries.

    1. Re:Then I guess that .... by C0rinthian · · Score: 1

      Playing Chess well requires that you plan ahead and anticipate your opponent. That is a skill. The knowledge covers what the pieces can do.

      Chess has a basic about of knowledge requisite to play, (Piece capabilities and rules) while it requires a great deal of personal skill to play well.

      WoW is the opposite. It has a complicated tool/rule set that is used to achieve very simple goals. The only part of the game that remotely approaches the skill requirements similar to a game of chess would be organized PvP, and even that doesn't require the same level of planning. The raid game is only difficult because it is hard to coordinate 25 people with any precision, and failure is harshly punished. The actual requirements for success are very basic.

  40. O RLY? by Teflon_Jeff · · Score: 1

    No security? Are you kidding, for the right amount of GP's, there's always someone to guard you from death. Or PvP slayers.

    --
    "Teach a man to build a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."
  41. Obviously not reached 45 yet in Lotro by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    The game in many ways is even worse then WoW, yes at the beginning progress is rapid and you can quest all the way. No problem.

    And then you hit 45 and it all changes, your new class quest is a nightmare, a whole list of items to collect that drop just from 1 critter for 1 person in the group and for instance Slime of Helegrod is needed by all the classes. Yes, it is RAID time with loot rotation.

    Then there is your armour, level 47 critical items from single use recipes that can't use a critical item so you have about a 1/3-4 change of actually getting a critical. Do the math on the number of materials needed and you quickly come to realise that Lotro POST level 45 is again a grind.

    The reason? Well this is turbine, they don't do original, but mostly, what choice do they really have?

    Content costs money, there is a rather ambitious slideshow available somewhere that shows the expansions they once had planned, you are talking a couple of years worth to map all the way to mount doom, but what the hell kind of level will you be by that time?

    The grind is way to keep the game 'alive'. Without the grind, well what is there to do once you reached max level? Lotro hurts from this even more then WoW precisly because the early levels are so easy. I got 3 alts at or close to 50 and two rapidly going through their 30's. And then what? Getting them there was fun, but I think that unless the expansion really turns the game around, when I get my last to 45 I will quit for the next MMO.

    Make no mistake, Lotro falls into the same WoW style grind later on. Crafters will know this. Jewellers can refine gem, for 4 tiers 1 raw gem makes 1 polished gem. The last tier suddenly requires 2 raw gems to make one polished. You glue themtogether or something? There is no logic in it, it is just to extend the grind even longer. Same reason why platinum ingots suddenly require 4 ore when previous tiers had 2 ores for 1 ingot. Or why Misty Mountain Silver is so rare and drops less from a node then earlier resources.

    If I am nice I think that turbine wanted to make a nice game but was faced at later levels with the problem that during testing people finished too quickly and with no time to add extra content they just stretched it out.

    If I am nasty I think that turbine wanted to get you hooked with the early rapid progress and then hit you with the grind instead of content so they could milk your subscription money until they ruin this game like they did their earlier title. Lets not forget, Turbine is the MMO company that actually managed to kill of their previous title, even SOE hasn't done that yet. SOE just leaves them lingering in agony.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Obviously not reached 45 yet in Lotro by llefler · · Score: 1

      Content costs money, there is a rather ambitious slideshow available somewhere that shows the expansions they once had planned, you are talking a couple of years worth to map all the way to mount doom, but what the hell kind of level will you be by that time?

      And despite the fact that content is expensive, they still treat it as disposable. How quickly do you leave Ered Luin and the Shire? Or most of Bree. Why doesn't the region adjust for the player? Then they could put quests in any zone. Another problem is playing with friends of different levels. If you're more than few levels apart, one of you will be grinding to catch up and the other will be bored and earning no XP powerleveling you.

      If, on the other hand, mobs adjusted for the character they are interfacing, there's no reason why a long time player at level 50 couldn't meet up with a friend on a newly created level 5 and quest together.

      --
      It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman
  42. Can the players handle it? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Download the free trial for Lotro, create a character and head to Bree. There is a quest there that starts at night, from a ghost near the southern gate, he asks you to find a ring that was lost at some baracks. Yet you don't recall any baracks even being at bree. It is suggested you ask around.

    Want to guess how many people INSTANTLY upon receiving that quest ask where to find this ring? 10%? 20%? I once just parked myself for an hour at night time near that ghost, just to see how many people that came near him would next ask the question. 8 people. 6 asked in public chat, the others might very well have done the quest before or asked in private chat.

    People don't want to explore.

    SWG had a little exploration and most people never bothered with it until the path to Jedi required it.

    On the way back from Dol Dinen to Esteldin you come across a wounded ranger, if you approach he warns of a trap and you are ambushed by 3 earthkins, fairly though critters. It isn't a quest, just a bit of color for the game. Again a bit of social experimentiation quickly showed me that most players had NEVER heard of this, quests are shown with a ring, there was no ring so people didn't explore to see what it was all about because no XP means a wast of time.

    It is depressing, but I sadly think that the market has spoken and the market has said, we want more WoW, please don't make us think or give us choices. Lead us by the hand and give us our XP and levels.

    And to be fair, I am not sure I entirely disagree. There is a fine line between an open-ended free form quest and sending a player out there without a clue. I remember a east european game, SS (not sure about the name, tactical turnbased squadgame in 3D enviroment that was totally destructable), it had quests/missions where on higher difficulties you weren't told what to do. You just appeared on a map and good luck finding out what your objectives were. A challenge or wasting my time?

    Like many a MMO player I have thought long and hard about how you could make a better game, but I keep hitting the same old problem, can the user handle it and sadly the answer is no. If you wants millions of subscribers you got to accept that you are developing for an average IQ well below 100. Retards. Lazy retards. Lazy dyslexic retards.

    Go on, come with an idea for a quest or game mechanism and then ask yourselve, how will a user who refuses to read or look at his interface deal with it. One of the biggest challenges in the endgame of MMO's comes not from the game itself, but in finding a group of people that after months of play actually managed to get a clue. It sounds amazing but as a raid leader you would be suprised how many times you get a newbie who must be playing on someones elses account because with their skill they should have died at the loading screen.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Can the players handle it? by spun · · Score: 1

      Awww, man. That bummed me out. But audiences can be educated to enjoy more sophisticated forms of art. With a dynamic quest system using multi-branching, triggered plots , quests could be tailored to the intelligence level of the player.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:Can the players handle it? by llefler · · Score: 1

      Download the free trial for Lotro, create a character and head to Bree. There is a quest there that starts at night, from a ghost near the southern gate, he asks you to find a ring that was lost at some baracks. Yet you don't recall any baracks even being at bree. It is suggested you ask around.

      I'm familiar with that quest, though I don't remember people asking about it. The one I have seen a lot is people asking if the mining records are actually in Othrikar. I'll admit, many players aren't interested in exploring and their reading comprehension is rather low. But to be fair, I have found quite a few LOTRO quests that give you information that is 'imprecise'. And I do like exploring. As a friend keeps pointing out to me, LOTRO still needs a bit of polish.

      --
      It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman
    3. Re:Can the players handle it? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      But audiences can be educated to enjoy more sophisticated forms of art.

      People don't want to pay to be educated in MMOs. Really. You should jump on a MMO trial account some time and see. Sad to say, it really is as bad as the GP says. The vast majority of players just want to be fed the absolute minimum knowledge required to grind as fast as possible.

      Give them the option of doing quests that actually make them think and explore on their own, and most of them won't touch them, so you just wasted all that expensive development effort. Give them nothing but those quests, and you're out of business.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    4. Re:Can the players handle it? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Go on, come with an idea for a quest or game mechanism and then ask yourselve, how will a user who refuses to read or look at his interface deal with it.

      Too true. I can't tell you the number of times I'd be questing with someone, and they'd ask where we should go and I'd say "This way" and shortly we would find the quest objective, and they'd ask "How'd you know where to look?!" and I'd answer "Uh... By reading the quest description. It says 'northwest just past the big mountain' which is where we are."

      So yeah.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    5. Re:Can the players handle it? by spun · · Score: 1

      That's the current audience. It's what's keeping me, and many more people like me off of these games. If there were a game that really catered to role players, those of us who cut our gaming teeth on tabletop games, I would pay upwards of $30 a month for it.

      In TV land, there is Fox, the WB, and Lifetime on the one hand; and IFC, HBO, and the BBC on the other hand. I believe there is a market for upscale, intellectual, and character driven MMORPGs. It just needs to be developed.

      MMORPGs do not need to be a race to the bottom.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    6. Re:Can the players handle it? by lgw · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure how true that is. A small percentage of WoW's market is still a huge market. Just realize tha people want to perform actions with their character, not read quest text - you have to tell the story through action. I know that in the old EQ you could sit in some odd corner of a city where nothing XP-related happened and that was somewhat hard to get to, and see someone wander through every couple of minutes, just exploring.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re:Can the players handle it? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Then why aren't you already paying $0 per month to play on a RP MOO/MUSH/MUSE?

      Can you define "many more people"? I mean, in a business plan.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    8. Re:Can the players handle it? by spun · · Score: 1

      I played MUSHs for a long while. I like nice graphics, though. What I'd really like is an MMORPG with elements of a sim and a multi branching plot system with an emphasis on role playing. Any business plan would be speculative, no one's done anything like that so you can't accurately predict how it would work. What you could do, with a good multi branching plot system, is start out smart but dumb it down if its not making money... The key would be marketing it to the right demographic. I'd target traditional role players and aficionados of sims rather than the hordes of mouth breathing action/platformer fans who seem to inhabit MMORPGs nowadays.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    9. Re:Can the players handle it? by Rogerborg · · Score: 1

      Good luck with that. Should I ever see any of your advertising, then I'll be sure to give it a try. ;)

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    10. Re:Can the players handle it? by adavies42 · · Score: 1

      Anyone here play the Myst Online: Uru Live? Is it any good? Given how Myst worked, I've always figured it'd be the closest the alleged ideal of a grind-free, open-ended MMO. I'll be giving it a try myself just as soon as I finally decide what Intel Mac to replace my ancient PBG4 15" with....

      --
      Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
      -kfg
    11. Re:Can the players handle it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the current audience. It's what's keeping me, and many more people like me off of these games. If there were a game that really catered to role players, those of us who cut our gaming teeth on tabletop games, I would pay upwards of $30 a month for it.

      The problem is one of scale. Are there enough people out there willing to pay $50/mo (or $100/mo) for that?

      Maybe, maybe not... and you'd get slammed in the trade press for charging so much for a MMO.

    12. Re:Can the players handle it? by GaryPatterson · · Score: 1

      People don't want to explore.

      I guess I'm one of those few that get more enjoyment from seeing new places in games than beating up monster clone #54326546543. I play WoW and swam around both continents at L10 to see new things. I found some 'lost' places (shacks on the coast miles from anywhere, signs of life but no creatures around) and some interesting new places. All great fun, and still my favourite time from this game.

      I'm stuck on the grind now, with one character at L62 who rarely is played and another at L32 who I play just to get to L35 so I can increase my trade skills. I'd far rather concentrate on exploration and trade than beating up the same monsters again and again to accomplish yet another "bring me ten monster X livers" or "kill 15 of monster Y" quest. The game's not about that though, well not entirely.

      There's still most of the Outlands to explore, and soon the next expansion will provide another continent to visit, so there's hope. I just have to wade through a bunch of dull, uninspired quests to get there.

      It is depressing, but I sadly think that the market has spoken and the market has said, we want more WoW, please don't make us think or give us choices. Lead us by the hand and give us our XP and levels.

      You're right - it *is* depressing. This is the time that the market has to be led to a different model, and game companies should be trying to release products that differ from WoW. Oddly it seems that they don't see this, believing that if they make another WoW, people will flock to their product. We've already got WoW though, we need something new, something very different.

  43. These Guys Sound Like Newbies by Galrahn · · Score: 1

    From that chapter offered free it sounds like they only recently discovered MMOs. Many of these tricks date back to 1997 with UO. The same dudes who were rippin that olf Origin system then still do the same to the beta of the new games. Reusable code... indeed.

  44. I knew it could not be me by EdIII · · Score: 1

    My friends told me I just sucked. I knew it was the other fuckers cheating. I got a good 15 minutes of "I told you so" coming.

  45. Unfortunately, people will cheat at skill game too by filthpickle · · Score: 1

    Many many cheaters in fps' that "just want to win".

    There is a large section of the gaming community that determines their self worth on just being better than other players...legitimately or not. All they care about is that they pwn you.

  46. May i recommend PlanetSide? by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

    PlanetSide (PS) is a Sci-Fi MMOFPS by SOE. There is no grinding, no twinking, no arbitrary quests, is 100% PVP, and relies on teamwork and strategy. There is no n00b stomping beyond, a guy with a tank will usually kill you with two shot, but that makes a kind of sense.

    You COULD by a high level character, but you wouldn't gain much for your trouble. AFAIK there is no market for characters, and absolutely no market for items. PS works on a certification system that allows you to load and unload certs to use different equipment. After playing one night of play you can access just about anything a player of 4 years can. High ranked characters will have access to a wider variety of items and vehicles. But the equipment is the same from player to player. My AMP does as much damage as your AMP. But i as a more experienced player would also have a Lasher and could fly a Reaver. You could unload your sniper cert to gain the Reaver cert. In PS, you play to play. It's all fun. Sure, you want the next rank, but anything you could buy with it you could have anyway if you gave up something else. If you have a life, the players who don't will not have a significant advantage over you, only more flexibility in what roles they can play. Plus since the equipment levels the field, skill and knowledge usually prevail. If you get stomped repeatedly, it's probably your fault, rather than just a matter of your opponent having an instagib spell.

    The closest thing there is to farming would be a base battle where the enemy has you surrounded or vice versa. Such situations are VERY intense and one side eventually wins.

    Speaking of which, there is a sense of gain or loss with each battle. In BF2142 if your team wins you get some points, but that map will reload and it's like you were never there. The battle for Auraxis is persistent 24/7. Bases, towers and continents change hands. Any thing your empire claims is still yours, until the enemy tries to take it back.

    Teamwork, tactics and strategy are the keys to winning. Blind zerg rushing will get you nowhere against an organized foe. Skilled players can fend off several unskilled players. Organized groups can fend off larger groups. TeamSpeak or Ventrilo are a must.

    My role is that of saboteur. i'm in yr base, droppin' yr generators. In my infiltration suit, i sneak into the enemy's base and blow up their gens. Tis good times.

    i'm in one of the top outfits (guilds) on the east coast, i'll direct folks to more info if they send me a PM.

    And yes, your comparison of WoW to GW is right on. i left WoW for about the same reasons, it felt like a job. GW is also the most visually beautiful games out there (imho).

    --
    Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
  47. Nothing to do with the grind by Anach · · Score: 1

    I'm sorry, but you guys who think that people cheat because of the grind are mistaken. People cheat in all games, even games without grinds. Cheats have been part of many games, secret codes or button combinations used to unlock cheat features. Well MMO's and online games in general dont have those. People cheat in online shooters because they want to win, people do the same thing in MMOs. They want to win, and they want to win quick. They dont want to work to achieve something, they want to be with the top players, right away. Either through getting leveled, buying credits to purchase items or using god hacks to be unstoppable. The problems with hacks in multiplayer games, is that they affect everyone. Where as in single player games, it's only the person playing. They will never be stopped entirely, but making cheaters easier to detect and then dealing them a costly blow by banning their account, and hitting them where it hurts. The wallet.