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German Court Abolishes German Snooping Law
Robert writes to mention that Germany's highest court has imposed limitations on the amount of spying governmental bodies can do on a suspect's computer. The ruling comes in response to a state law on North Rhine Westphalia that had allowed secret services to peer into a citizen's computer. "Court President Hans-Juergen Papier said that using such software contravened rights enshrined in Germany's constitution, adding that the decision would serve as a precedent across the country. The ruling emphasized that cyber spying by the authorities would have to receive the permission of a judge. The German government has described cyber spying as a vital tool in fighting terrorism."
What a crazy world where Germany knows more about freedom than America.
.. had peaked with closing the tax loophole that lets Uwe Boll make films, they go and do this. Where will it all end?
Why has a Supreme Court to tell politicians that their laws are against the constitution? Wasn't that obvious in the first place?
Besides, this is not the first law being overturned for human rights reasons. The German Secretary of Defense had passed a law to grant the military the right to shoot down a high-jacked aeroplane full of civilians.
It seems like our politicians have forgotten how our last dictator (aka unser Führer) became as powerful as he did: By passing laws to abolish human rights under the coat of stabilizing the country. Only did he have the Supreme Court on HIS side.
Also interesting is the article linked in TFA which gives an overview of domestic spying in Germany, Italy, the UK, and Greece, France, and Denmark.
I have newfound respect for the Greeks.
He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Germany had a mad dictator at one time stomping on personal freedoms, and the country learned from that about how democracy and freedom should work. The country has pledged never to let that crap happen again.
America will pick that lesson up in, oh, about eleven months or so if we're lucky. You don't know what you've got until it's gone.
Laughter is the Spackle of the Soul.
RS
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
It's ok for Germany to bribe bank employees in Liechtenstein in order to snoop on private citizens' bank accounts.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
... that means they kinda legalized it (with said limitations) for all states, when it was illegal (in all states but NRW) before this ruling. The police searching the home of suspects is "limited" by pretty much the same rules (permission by a judge etc.) - and is generally permitted everytime the state attorney asks nicely. The judges often don't even really read the request before signing it off.
Plus: in case of raiding your appartment, you instantly know the Police have been there (they have to do it in your presence, or in the presence of an independent witness, plus your appartment is in obvious disarray) - while you have no idea that said trojan (yes, that's what even the government calls it) has been installed on your Computer.
Surveillance state, here we come!
> The ruling emphasized that cyber spying by the authorities would have to receive the permission of a judge.
I'd say, that is a given. More importantly, the ruling states that such measures are only allowed, if there is a concrete and imminent threat of life or the foundations of the state.
"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
1) Germany doesn't have case law - there's no such thing as a precedent under German Law. This court's job is to rule on the legality of laws; the court can interpret how the law should be applied, then that becomes the law: another interpretation can't arise from another court
2) This is Germany's Constitutional court - there's no higher or lower instance for this type of law.
IANAL etc.
todo - The developer's equivalent of confession: "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned..."
that our own lawmakers will take this as a sign. A country that is traditionally more strict than our own and gives fewer rights to its citizens follows our constitution better than our own government.
We just knew it was a matter of time.
You can't be spied upon
If you're hoping that this ruling from Germany will save you, it won't. Our (US) Supreme Court recently declined to even hear the case brought by the EFF over illegal wiretapping done here.
It's well past time to get off your ass if you want this to change. Have you contacted your congresscritters about FISA?
If one lives in Germany, and reads this tag, does Germany become infinitely free via recursion? Quick, we need an Americaismorefreethanus tag immediately - or just save time and make theworldismorefreethanus instead!
Dude, where/when are you living? I happen to live in Germany and I can tell you that there is only a tiny minority of extremists (US has this probably, too). Educate yourself just a tiny bit, please. Imho the amount of assholes in the world is fairly distributed around the world. But prejudice never seems to vanish...
Now a few words about the actual story: First, it's only partially a victory for privacy. Both the supporters and the opponents of strict security laws count this judgment a success. That's because the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court of Germany) didn't forbid online spying in principle. They found this specific law to be against the constitution, and they ruled that there have to be some security measures (such as authorization by judge in each case), but in principle it is possible for the German government to spy on people.
On the other hand, they ruled for the first time, that there is a Grundrecht auf Vertraulichkeit und Integrität informationstechnischer Systeme (something like basic right for trust and integrity of IT systems) even though I am not really sure what consequences this will have.
Whenever a law is found unconstitutional, each and every politician who voted for it should have his right revoked to be part of the parliament and never be able to be a candidate in any election again.
The ruling emphasized that cyber spying by the authorities would have to receive the permission of a judge All they need to do is get a job at Best Buy
Seriously, is it supposed to look like that?
This was a judgement on behalf of a law of one of germanys federal states(1)
this law was made for giving the state agency "Landesverfassungsschutz"(2) the ability to install such software, this law was ruled unconstitional.
But it's not the method itself, which was ruled unconstitutional, but the ruling in its details just restricts future federal laws(3).
The trojan software can now only be installed under the condition a judge decides to do so,
and this also only on the following conditions
- threat to human life ( abduction, murder )
- threat to the federal republic of germany ( terrorism )
If information and data is gathered containing sensitive private information,
this data must be delete just in time and shall not be brought to court under any circumstances,
this includes the possesion of childpornography.
(1) similar to the US germany consists as a federal system, including 16 states which form the federal republic of germany
(2) a like homeland security such way for a single state in the federation,
germany also has a federal agency which coordinates the work of the state agencies
(3) which are planned by the ministry of internal afairs with it's minister Wolfgang Schaeuble
"BKA-Gesetz" (BKA similar to the FBI)
German Chaos Computer Club does a radio show (in german) right now (22:00 GMT+1) about.
Infos (and later podcast download):
http://chaosradio.ccc.de/cr132.html
Streams:
* MP3 128kBit/s VBR Joint Stereo
o http://stream.xenim.de:8000/cr_128k_vbr.mp3
o http://streams.xenim.de:8000/cr_128k_vbr.mp3.m3u
* OGG 56kBit/s VBR Stereo
o http://stream.xenim.de:8000/cr_56k.ogg
o http://streams.xenim.de:8000/cr_56k.ogg.m3u
* OGG 96kBit/s VBR Stereo
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* OGG 128kBit/s VBR Stereo
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o http://streams.xenim.de:8000/cr_128k.ogg.m3u
Only anarchists think that "privacy rights" should mean that you have the right to not get caught doing nefarious crap.
Can you be Even More Awesome?!
Scottish Bavarian ... I have mentioned on a number of occasions that the constitution of the Bundesrepublik is very similar to the US constitution but at least 27 pages longer and offering even greater protection to the rights of the individual.
Now the millstones of the German legal system grind exceedingly slower than those of the UK or the US and rights are commonly regarded as having greater weight post court ruling (for anthropological reasons that are too long to repeat) but grind they do and once the grinding is done, the constitution rules.
The Germans are a people who are really good at learning from past mistakes (the foundation of their superb engineering skills) and the constitution is modelled as the absolute antithesis to lawlessness of that brief reign of the National Socialists.
As for the church tax (Kirchensteuer) contrary to the propaganda of amongst others, the Scientologists, that is a relic of the historical development of the Principalities post Holy Roman Empire when the Princes were responsible for the care and maintenance of the Catholic Church - which was the state religion until Martin Luther's protestant revolution. You can opt out of the tax by completing a form at the Rathaus - there is no need to lie.
When viewed properly from the wide angled lens of history, Germany is an example of a nation that evolved into a very liberal and tolerant society of highly cultured citizens (sometimes to the point of affectatiousness it is true - but you know every family has its oddballs) and every level of society is affected by this native tolerance. So when you read other posts here that mention Adolf, police states, restriction of the rights of the individual - take it from a native Auslander - it is merely the stereotypical FUD we often see here.
I know, humour gets you more mod points but sometimes even I have to be serious.
Posts, MyBio or Sig, may contain satire, sarcasm, bolded nouns be sardonic or even witty & be Church of SD
http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/entscheidungen/rs20080227_1bvr037007.html This is the text of the ruling, so from the horse's mouth. My german admittedly is not perfect, but a native speaker told me there is nothing there that actually requires approval from a judge, just an initial suspicion of a crime being committed. Reading through, I can't find any such requirement myself, either. It emphasizes the importance of the relevant basic rights, and states there must be sufficient measures taken to ensure the right to privacy is maintained. But nothing about getting approval from a court as far as I can tell.
Maybe your native speaker should have taken the time to read the text. "initial suspicion" would not be enough. At the very least, facts have to point to a specific danger to peoples life, the very existence of the state (überragend wichtige Rechtsgüter) and such. I. e. "We are certain he is up to no good" is not enough, but "Here is proof that he bought explosives" would be. Die heimliche Infiltration eines informationstechnischen Systems ist grundsätzlich unter den Vorbehalt richterlicher Anordnung zu stellen. This means you need a judges order to secretly infiltrate a computer.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Well, the main issue my source had with the requirement for the infiltrations to be subject to the proper judicial channels was that the proper judicial channels for wiretaps are basically just there to rubberstamp any requests the police make. "There are barcoded forms for that" was the way he described it...
America had a mad dictator at one time stomping on personal freedoms, and the country learned from that about how democracy and freedom should work. The country has pledged never to let that crap happen again.
There, fixed that for you.
I fully agree.
A while ago, I heard a speech from a lawyer who described such a rubber-stamp case:
The police found an unlabeled DVD on a person (never mind how and why). This was taken as a proof that the person was dealing with warez, so his house (actually his parent's house) was searched. This case probably made a few waves, because the father was an important local politician.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Oh sure, in the US you don't, assuming that you don't drive, don't have a government ID, don't vote, are unemployed (and not receiving benefits), don't own a house, and are not a male between the ages of 18 and 26.
All you need for any of that is a mailing address, not the place where you actually live.
one of the consequences might be that this basic constitutional right for computer privacy might be an effective way to prevent curious RIAA-like organisations to snoop around on our computers for no reason. At least as long as potential copyright infringers aka customers are not regarded as terrorists.
As many other posters before, I think it will not be too difficult for the authorities to find a judge that sings the papers that are necessary for them to spy on people's computers. Fact is that most judges here are so old that they just don't understand the concept of computers, and people simply fear things that they don't understand. But I guess that's not a german problem.
On the other hand, if the authorities actually try to get on someone's computer, they will have to find some solid hints that you might be or are connected to a terrorist thread. They can't just claim that, and it's not enough to say "he's a conservative muslim, so he must be a terrorist". At least that's the theory.
I'm not so sure about the US. Concerning "tiny", I mean.
Indeed, that was part of the famous talk "Sie haben das Recht zu schweigen" (Download) (meaning something like "you have the right to be silent") at the 23C3.
It is my understanding that the Trojan snooping software would only run on MS Windows, but since we all know that terrorists, anti-capitalists and all other enemies of the state run deviant operating systems, like GNU/Linux, the state would not find anything useful anyway :-)
... certainly was that way in my home country, AustriaWas to make the world believe that Adolf Hitler was German, while Ludwig Van Beethoven was Austrian...
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
On the first page, number 3:
Die heimliche Infiltration eines informationstechnischen Systems ist grundsätzlich unter den Vorbehalt richterlicher Anordnung zu stellen. Das Gesetz, das zu einem solchen Eingriff ermächtigt, muss Vorkehrungen enthalten, um den Kernbereich privater Lebensgestaltung zu schützen.
Maybe somebody is in the mood to translate it for me :
only the meaning, not exact wording though
An order of a Judge is necessary to infiltrate an information technology system. E.G the police can not do it on its own.
A law that alows this kind of stuff (the infiltration) must have procedures in place to protect the core of someones private livestyle
__
(e.g. german spy laws already does not allow to record conversations between married coupples in their sleeping room about their sick child or what kind of sexgame they want to play that night)
IMO of course its illosoric to assume such procedures are resonable possible if the police snoops on somebodys HDD will they only search in folder My documents and Settings - "terror attack plans" and leave the folder "my 20 birthday" out of their snooping action?!
actually in number 3 the order of a judge is mentioned as necesssary
:P
Richterliche Anordnung = order by a judge
native german speaker here, so i know what i'm talking about even If I can't say it in english very well though