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Researchers Expose New Credit Card Fraud Risk

An anonymous reader writes "Researchers from the University of Cambridge have discovered flaws in the card payment systems used by millions of customers worldwide. Ross Anderson, Saar Drimer, and Steven Murdoch demonstrated how a simple paper clip can be used to capture account numbers and PINs from so-called 'tamper-proof' equipment. In their paper (PDF), they warn how with a little technical skill and off-the-shelf electronics, fraudsters could empty customers' accounts. British television featured a demonstration of the attack on BBC Newsnight."

219 comments

  1. Get rid of the damn things! by seanadams.com · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The reason the security is so poor is because the banks don't give a s**t. It's the _merchants_ that are liable for fraud, even though it's almost entirely the fault of the banks! They banks only have to make it just good enough that it's easier for the merchants to take credit cards than cash - even after the exorbitant ($0.25 + 2.5%) processing fees that they charge just to move the bits around.

    The powers that be LOVE us using credit cards. They can track us, and they can dupe the feeble-minded among us into spending our way into a lifetime of indentured servitude.

    The failure of our government to (re-)introduce a $1000 bill, in spite of massive inflation, is a deliberate scheme to make it impractical for us to use untraceable funds for any substantial purchase. And it has nothing to do with tracking terrorists or drug money, it's just to keep tabs on and control over the law abiding populous.

    1. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by suso · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I believe this is called Security Theatre.

    2. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by ShadowsHawk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are plenty of merchants that will not accept a $50 let alone a $100.

    3. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The data mining industry is so ingrained in our society that even if people started using $100 bills to pay for major purchases, the serial numbers on the bills would probably be scanned for tracking information. The only way you are going to get privacy in your monetary transactions is with a national privacy overhaul with penalties for data mining without permission. Since the government is one of the entities doing the data mining, this is probably not going to happen anytime soon.

    4. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by magarity · · Score: 1

      They don't have to give you change if they don't keep enough on hand for security reasons (there's almost always a sign to this affect) but if a $50 or a $100 is all you've got for a small purchase then I assure you, they'll take it if it's to pay for something you've already consumed.

    5. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by the+brown+guy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I tried paying for my university tuition with cash (I have a cash based job) and the woman there said that I can only pay online with a credit card. After explaining that I am too young to have a credit card, and that I only had cash she relented. Even then, she said that they couldn't give me any change, so I had to go and get exact change. Its bullshit, not everybody can have a credit card, plus I like the anonymity that paying via cash provides.

      --
      Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
    6. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a manufacturing design problem.
      These boxes can be made to make this attack nearly impossible.
      But it would cost another 5 bucks to manufacture it.

      Hell, if the designed them so the case was steel, and as thin as an iPhone this problem goes away because:
      a) it would take serious effort even AFTER you knew what to do. Raises the risk.
      b) You couldn't attach something to it without it being noticed.

      As far as the software goes, encrypt the data.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by eat+here_get+gas · · Score: 0

      RE:

      "Since the government is one of the entities doing the data mining, this is probably not going to happen."

      there, fixed that for ya!

      --
      the significance of a signature is insignificant
    8. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by David_W · · Score: 1

      Devil's advocate...

      Its bullshit, not everybody can have a credit card

      True, but can't pretty much everybody get a debit card tied back to a checking account?

    9. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by BigJClark · · Score: 1


      uh....its either that, or they just like making money at 18% interest. Perhaps you chalk up more credit to your government than its worth. I prefer live by Occam's razor, and the older I get, the less prone I am to... delusional thinking. Or maybe, you're winston smith, and I'm part of the inner party. You dropped your tinfoil hat.

      --

      Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
    10. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      As far as the software goes, encrypt the data

      In Australia, merchant banks will only accept transactions encrypted to 3DES. This was a fairly recent change. Retailers (including the very large one I helped through the PIN pad changeover) spent rather a lot of money on the changeover, and had no complaints about the investment. Nobody watches the till quite like a grocer...

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    11. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Raistlin77 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not everybody can have a checking account, especially if they are unfortunate or irresponsible. And which would you rather have, cash or an electronic transaction that can be reversed or check that can bounce?

    12. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Raistlin77 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The problem is not missing encryption between the merchant and bank, the problem is with missing encryption between the merchant and the card reader/pin entering pad. The same readers/pads are still unencrypted, even though the merchant may be encrypting the data for the transaction to/from the bank.

      It's like entering your credit card information on a website for a purchase. The connection to the server may be encrypted, but the data sent from your keyboard to your pc is not, and this is the same as where the hack with the card readers/pads is occurring.

    13. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predict that whatever your chosen course of study at the university, you will do just fine in life. You're a smart kid.

    14. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      Either way, as a merchant, I'm accepting the risk. With cash or EFT/ACH, it's harder for a customer to strongarm a merchant vs. the customer paying with a credit card and threatening a chargeback. And yes, customers threaten chargebacks over issues that aren't the merchant's fault/problem. The customer is not always right.

    15. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      RE:

      "Since the government is one of the entities doing the data mining, this is probably not going to happen."

      there, fixed that for ya!


      Yes, that is certainly much clearer and more insightful than the original. Here's to you, Mr. Forum Post Fixer-Upper While Not Actually Changing The Original Meaning Guy!

    16. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by DShard · · Score: 1

      Why do you want to track every financial transaction?

    17. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by DShard · · Score: 1

      Or: option number three, it benefited both, and they both made it possible. Even if it wasn't built with malice in mind, it will be used that way.

    18. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      he failure of our government to (re-)introduce a $1000 bill, in spite of massive inflation, is a deliberate scheme to make it impractical for us to use untraceable funds for any substantial purchase. And it has nothing to do with tracking terrorists or drug money, it's just to keep tabs on and control over the law abiding populous.

      It might also have something to do with the fact that most people aren't crazy enough to walk around with thousands of dollars on them. In the end, it wouldn't matter, because any transaction of $10,000 or more with a bank will get reported anyway.

      Besides, a suitcase full of stacks of $100 bills has more class.

    19. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Kalriath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Really? Over here our terminals require triple-DES encryption between the PIN-pad and the terminal and then the connection from the terminal to the payment processor is encrypted again. Anything else will not be certified for connection to the EFTPOS network.

      Wow you guys really do have it bad.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    20. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually that isn't true. With chip cards the liability for fraud lies with the card scheme, i.e. visa mastercard etc. The reason this attack is still possible is that the cards that can prevent it are more expensive. So until the fraud reaches a level that exceeds the cost of these cards they will still be used.

    21. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by mark-t · · Score: 1

      True, that... but you can get a money order for only a nominal cost. In my experience with some banks, if the money order is for educational purposes (ie, to pay tuition) the money order fee is waived.

    22. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by syzler · · Score: 4, Informative

      In the case of university tuition, whether he can get a debit card or not is irrelevant. Legal U.S. tender must be accepted by a creditor (the University) from the debtor (the student) to pay off a debt within the U.S. If the University required payment before it allowed the student to register for classes, then the University could require payment by credit card. However since the University extended credit to the student for the classes, it is required to accept legal tender as payment for those classes.

      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender.

    23. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pffft. I work in retail, and assuming I have enough change on hand (which I usually do), I will accept a $100 note for a $1 purchase. More happily than credit or EFTPOS for that amount, since it costs the store money to use them but if I need more change that's just a quick walk a couple of doors down to the bank.

      And for, say, a $51 purchase where all the customer has on them is a $50 note, I'd rather make that $50 than say "go away, you're a dollar short".

    24. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      Devil's advocate...
      [...]can't pretty much everybody get a debit card tied back to a checking account? If I'm right, those behave almost like credit cards - however, I'm not comfortable using one. In the event that there's fraud, the money is not in your account while it's being resolved. This isn't an issue with credit cards, since it's merely your credit being "on hold" rather than having money taken away from you. If you don't have a credit card, you generally don't have as much money to use (making fraud very damaging.)

      I've worked in a customer service call center where people were calling up about unauthorized charges on their credit card (and associated calls made by the fraudster trying to redirect the package). In some cases, these were really debit cards, which caused some transactions to fail or bounce.

      Also, I didn't know that my ATM card qualifies as a debit card, and as such, I always did cash transactions.
    25. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by X0563511 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's the same in Petro (gas stations, etc) except they use something funny called DUKPT (derived unique key per transaction) - 3DES wasn't enough.

      These damn pinpads have more tamper-detect on them than a chastity belt. You sneeze and it dumps it's keys.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    26. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by the+brown+guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's great to know, but it doesn't really help in a practical sense, legally I could pay $4000 in pennies (only 4000 because I'm in Canada), but I doubt they would accept that. I have a debit card, but use that to fund my eBay addiction via paypal, and I think that the government would be wondering why an "unemployed" university student is depositing a few thousand dollars a month into his bank account.

      --
      Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
    27. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by the+brown+guy · · Score: 1

      That's why I insist on paying with nickels and dimes for textbooks

      --
      Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
    28. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by John3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure the connection between the card reader and all external devices (POS stations, authorization network) is always encrypted. That's one of the basics for certification by Visa and the rest of the industry. The vulnerability demonstrated (based on my reading of TFA) occurs totally in the card reader/pad.

      --
      "We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
    29. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Populace.

    30. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      it's just to keep tabs on and control over the law abiding populous. I strongly suspect it has more to do with tax money.
      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    31. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it's ridiculous that you might have to pay for something linked to your name with something else linked to your name. Pooh on that clerk for not wanting to count six thousand dollars of cash.

    32. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by armada · · Score: 1

      Belive it or not it is a bit more sinister than that. Basically, the chip an pin scheme was not implemented to make the transactions more secure as much as to place a burden of responsibility on the customer. You pick the PIN, you are suposed to keep it safe, if you allow it to be stolen or share it then it is your fault. Just ask the lady who had to eat a loss because she admitted that her mother may have know her pin. Story

      Now, if you think that is bad just substitute chip and pin with any biometric scheme. Once the "man in the middle attack" is perpetrated... how are you going to revoke your eyes, fingers, vein patterns?

      --
      "This message was sent from an Apple //GS"
    33. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by The+-e**(i*pi) · · Score: 1

      A customer that is not right is no longer your customer.

    34. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      I tried paying for my university tuition with cash...
      Yeah, I like to carry $20,000 worth of cash around with me... especially on campus where laptops and backpacks go missing all the time.

      Its bullshit, not everybody can have a credit card, plus I like the anonymity that paying via cash provides.
      Yeah! Stick it to the man! I hate it when they can trace my tuition money back to me!
      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    35. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by the+brown+guy · · Score: 1

      Tuition is $4000,I pay $2000 at a time, it's a lot of money, but one is normally more careful with a few thousand dollars than a laptop which is worth the same for some reason. I guess that theft is a larger issue when you're stupid and leave a backpack with a laptop at a cafeteria table, I've returned 2 this semester. When I mentioned how I prefer paying with cash, I didn't mean that I pay with tuition with cash for anonymity, that would be stupid. Cash is best for purchases you don't want traced back to you, or you just don't want people to know about. Hydroponic equipment is a perfect example.

      --
      Orbis terrarum est non altus satis
    36. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Wolfier · · Score: 1

      Doesn't stop someone from buying a house with a briefcase of $100 notes, right?

    37. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      The Australian government does it in real time via "AUSTRAC".

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Transaction_Reports_and_Analysis_Centre

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    38. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Rick17JJ · · Score: 1

      Back in the 1970s and 1980s, I had trouble getting my first credit card. They always turned me down saying that I had not yet established a credit history. The fact that I had worked steadily for the same company for many years did not seem be sufficient. I was well into my 30's before I was able to get my first credit card.

      Even the bank where I had both my savings and checking account, would not give me a charge card. I had banked with them for many years without any problems on my account. Finally they did give me a Visa debit card with my checking account. Debit cards were a new thing back then.

      I had taken classes at several junior colleges and they always gladly accepted my personal checks. But, I wanted to be able to rent a car when traveling. It is not possible to rent a car without a credit card. I was not sure if a debit card would have worked. Other than that, I did not have much reason for wanting a credit card. I was absolutely dead set against going into debt, carrying a balance from month to month or living beyond my means.

      Finally, someone who turned me down, told me that the problem was that I did not have a home telephone number and that made me look less substantial. My telephone number at work was not good enough. So I immediately had a telephone installed at home and soon soon had my first charge card. Having a home telephone also turned out to be handy when dating.

      Soon, I was having to constantly shred all those annoying pre-approved charge card applications that were constantly arriving in the mail. Bank tellers also frequently try to talk me into getting one of their charge cards. I always tell them, no thank you, I already have a credit card. Why would anyone want more than one charge card?

    39. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by CmdrGravy · · Score: 1

      I think you've misunderstood, the lack of encryption is not between the terminal and the payment processor it's actually in the pin entry device. Cunning criminals can buy these off e-bay, alter them internally and then if they have a friend working a shop or somewhere relatively easily swap their modified device which is logging all the card details with another one.

    40. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by CortoMaltese · · Score: 1

      It's the _merchants_ that are liable for fraud, even though it's almost entirely the fault of the banks! Too busy with work to find a reference, so you'll just have to take my word for it: The merchants are liable for fraud if they are not using the chip for the payment. Upgrade to chip card readers or be liable. Try Googling for "emv migration liability shift".
    41. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Rogerborg · · Score: 1
      Oh, FFS, Google before making an idiot of yourself.

      banknotes issued by the Bank of Canada are legal tender in Canada. However, commercial transactions may legally be settled in any manner agreed by the parties involved.

      Some business in Canada is transacted in United States dollars, despite United States currency not being legal tender.

      Legal tender of Canadian coinage is governed by the Currency Act which sets out limits of:

      * 40 dollars if the denomination is 2 dollars or greater but does not exceed 10 dollars;
      * 25 dollars if the denomination is 1 dollar;
      * 10 dollars if the denomination is 10 cents or greater but less than 1 dollar;
      * 5 dollars if the denomination is 5 cents;
      * 25 cents if the denomination is 1 cent.

      Retailers in Canada may refuse bank notes without breaking the law. According to legal guidelines, the method of payment has to be mutually agreed upon by the parties involved with the transactions. For example, convenience stores may refuse $100 bank notes if they feel that would put them at risk of being counterfeit victims; however, official policy suggests that the retailers should evaluate the impact of that approach. In the case that no mutually acceptable form of payment can be found for the tender, the parties involved should seek legal advice.
      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    42. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by DrLang21 · · Score: 1

      You make it sound like he must have paid in $1 bills. Most likely he paid in $50 bills and $100 bills, unless he was walking around with a suitcase of cash. If someone working at a University can't count to 60 (or better yet, count to 10 six times) fairly quickly and painlessly that's pretty sad.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    43. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Xiaotou · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think you should re-read your own link.

      From the article:
      There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.

      Oops.

    44. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by eat+here_get+gas · · Score: 0

      hey fuckwad, at least I post under my name you anonymous fuckin coward...where's YOUR balls einstein?
      get them out of your hand (or mommy's mouth) and post your name...

      --
      the significance of a signature is insignificant
    45. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by bcattwoo · · Score: 1

      A tuition bill is not extended credit. The university will not complete its services (allowing you to finish class, recording grades, and releasing transcripts) before the bill is paid. In many cases tuition is due before the semester even starts.

    46. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Isaac-Lew · · Score: 1

      Store/mall security camera + facial-recognition software = diminished anonymity.

    47. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by neomunk · · Score: 1

      Right, I agree, but I'm gonna throw something out there that puts this whole anonymity thing in perspective.

      There is enough data on every one reading this post (like the kind parent mentioned) to scuffle our anonymity for good. The issue isn't them collecting SOME data, the issue is them collecting EVERY PIECE THEY WANT, especially tied-to-everything numbers like credit cards and social security #s, and collecting them in enough places for those numbers to be used as KEYS in collating and cross-referencing databases.

      Facial recognition software and other methods of high-processor-usage surveillance aren't common yet because they have so many other (already compiled) DBs to draw data from, why waste all that crunch on building a new one?

      All the data is there, but putting those pieces together is a monumental task. The thing that that brown guy (you're not THE brown guy :-) ) gets that so many people seem not to is that by not giving those numbers up, unless you absolutely HAVE to, you're probably making ALREADY IN PLACE database queries SKIP YOUR RECORD because you don't have data in the key fields that they are using to correlate the data. Names are too common, SS, phone and CC numbers are unique, and finely suitable for master keys to many MANY disparate DBs. That DB structure has to be obnoxious, and any speedbump you can put in the way of connecting YOUR dots gives you that one tiny edge in your quest for anonymity.

      I have a bit of a built-in edge because my real name contains a non-alphanumeric character in a place that's not unique, but rare. This ALONE has caused me to realize that they gave up on using names as an identifier about 10 years ago, because I started getting mail from people who had a different spelling of my name than the people that referred me TO them.

      The point is, if you want ANY kind of anonymity you HAVE to do things like pay cash, work for cash, fill out your own tax forms and refuse to give your SS to anyone. Phone numbers are pretty much unique too, don't give those away either, but that gets practically impossible in many cases... If you're a part of society, you could be watched. I guess that's the bottom line. The best you can hope for is to make someone WORK at creating a custom query just to put your data together properly.

    48. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      I agree 100% about the anonymity. The thought of wanting to be anonymous while paying tuition sounded kinda funny to me...

      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    49. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by JCSoRocks · · Score: 1

      Yeah, umm, maybe he doesn't have a name.

      --
      You are using English. Please learn the difference between loose and lose; they're, there, and their; your and you're.
    50. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

      From the article: There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. God forbid that I question the veracity of unsourced Wikipedia claims, but the US money in my pocket all say "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE".

      For the record, the unsourced Wikipedia claim was plagiarized directly from http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html, and while it isn't very clear either, it certainly implies that the important difference is whether you are buying a good or service versus paying off a debt. I don't know that I buy the GP's claim that his tuition bill is a debt, but it seems that the Coinage Act of 1965 requires acceptance of US dollars and coins for any debt, public or private.

    51. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by jimbojw · · Score: 1

      Obviously what we need is mind encryption - so the words coming out your mouth are already 0AA96BA2278F48CD39281

    52. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by u38cg · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are correct. What is currently not encrypted is the data transfer between your card and the terminal into which you insert your card. Given how easy some terminals are to hack (this same team got one terminal playing Tetris last year), this means that any dishonest merchant can skim your details and create a cloned card, complete with PIN. The level of difficulty is not beyond the majority of /.ers.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    53. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I think it will really depend on your bank. HSBC USA will cover debit transactions as long as they've been notified of fraud. I assume this would be the same as with your credit card, if you haven't notified them and your credit is maxed out, they will decline further charges.

      Also, I've had to deal with several disputes on my debit card account and had the money back for use within a day.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    54. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by AySz88 · · Score: 1

      For the record, the unsourced Wikipedia claim was plagiarized directly from http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html... By the way, I'm pretty sure this is not "plagiarism" in any usual sense of the word. U.S. government documents are generally in the public domain, and Wikipedia isn't claiming it as original work (it actively prohibits it), or doing anything else wrong, by using the excerpt verbatim. I'd also encourage you to fix the problem yourself, after going through all this work...but you don't seem to be very generous towards the other users of Wikipedia, so I just did it myself. And all this Wikipedia-bashing was pretty unnecessary anyway, since the argument was based upon text also was in the WP article; thanks a lot for the unpleasantness.
    55. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by g0rAngA · · Score: 1

      Its interesting, but they've always forced a credit card on me - thank god i'm not too bad at managing my funds.
      I first applied for a credit card when I had no job, and was just entering my first year of university. It was approved, and a limit of $5,000 was put on it.

      A few years later, as I started to cut back my shifts at work so I could make more time to study, they offered a limit increase - to $9,500.
      I can't beleive that someone would think that I am so good a risk, that they would let me have access to almost 10 grand at a moments notice...
      Still, I guess they were right, because I've never missed a payment, but neither have I ever owed anything more than 1500...

    56. Re:Get rid of the damn things! by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily possible over here - the tamper protection is... stunning. The PIN pad if it isn't official will be rejected by the terminal, which will be rejected by the network (it fails the handshake and just displays "PIN Pad Error"). You can't intercept the communication between the pad and terminal (they're both separate devices) because it's triple DES encrypted, and you can't intercept the communication between the terminal and the network (because it's a dial-up connection, again encrypted). The best thieves can do over here is some sort of device which copies the card itself when it's swiped, and a camera to pick up the PIN as it's entered (since the PIN is not on the card) - our ATMs now have a little picture when the card is inserted telling us to cover our PIN entry.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  2. Is anyone here really surprised? by suso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Proprietary software AND hardware companies basically cannot be trusted. I've encountered countless amounts of commercial software, hardware products and services where the company states that they are very secure, but when investigating things myself, I find that its trivial to circumvent their security. You can read about some of the read about some of the poor security I've discovered recently with web hosting providers. Consumers deserve better than this and its all of our responsibilities to make all people aware of these problems. Ironically, this news program itself doesn't understand the value of open disclousure. I guess I can understand that as its human nature to want to hide things for fear of liability. But its not like they were doing something that's not so obvious that someone determined enough could figure out.

    First rule of security in my book: Someone who wants something bad enough, they will be able to circumvent nearly anything in order to get it. So its a matter of how badly they want it. Since its money in question, I'd say that a variety of organizations and people want it pretty bad.

    1. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by Pojut · · Score: 4, Informative

      First rule of security in my book: Someone who wants something bad enough, they will be able to circumvent nearly anything in order to get it. So its a matter of how badly they want it. Since its money in question, I'd say that a variety of organizations and people want it pretty bad.


      This reminds me of a quote (the source eludes me at the moment):

      "If it can be engineered by one human, it can be reverse-engineered by another human."
    2. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by whyloginwhysubscribe · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My bank in the UK (Barclays) has issued me with a secure ID card, that I type my PIN into, and it then gives me a number to type into the online banking system.

      I think it is only a matter of time before this gets transferred to shop terminals - if you need to bring something and remember something, then it makes life a lot harder for hackers.

    3. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by irongroin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      First rule of security should be: Physical access is all access.

    4. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While an interesting quote, it falls apart when taken to the virtual context. I'm pretty sure that both AES and the Diffie-Helmann key exchange were engineered by humans, yet I'd like to see someone reverse those ...

    5. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      That's a consequence, not a rule.

      Though I say it should be a rule (for accessibility reasons).
      If I have a box in front of me, I should have access to all of it's functions.
      You can secure access with passwords or whatever if you want, but there better be a way to clear that password.

      One of the things I hate most is TVs with no input switching button on them - if you've lost the original remote, you're often screwed. We've got universal remotes now, sure, but the damned physical button should be on the TV.

      I prefer to keep humans in the loop, and a requirement for that is often to have a back door security-wise.
      If that's a preset password or a jumper on the motherboard, fine. Just make sure people know about it and don't make it so you need proprietary tools to open up your damned case.

      But you're right, and so many people forget that if you need something secured, you MUST start at physical security.

    6. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by Xtravar · · Score: 1

      I've encountered countless amounts of commercial software, hardware products and services where the company states that they are very secure, but when investigating things myself, I find that its trivial to circumvent their security. Consumers deserve better than this and its all of our responsibilities to make all people aware of these problems. Actually, one of my customer sites isn't using passwords specifically because they demanded that logging in be easy. Yeah, I had to write that code while simultaneously assuring my boss that it's "as secure as can be". I pretty much hated my life after having to design a legitimate login system and then having to hack in a back door so that these doofs could use barcodes to log in. Barcodes that anyone can photocopy.
      --
      Buckle your ROFL belt, we're in for some LOLs.
    7. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by fullgandoo · · Score: 1

      This is actually not as proprietary as you might think. Chip card standards are set by an organization called EMV (Europay, MasterCard, Visa, emvco.com) which has detailed published specifications for the hardware as well as software. Every POS terminal as well as the software residing in it has to go through a certification process. I suppose the next revision of the standard will overcome the problem highlighted.

    8. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by mlts · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the next step is one time PIN entries that are tied to the card, similar to S/Key or OPIE passwords, but 4-6 numeric digits in length. The customer obtains the PIN series by scratching off codes on a card mailed from their bank or another secure channel.

      Another idea is to have the customer physically possess the unit that does the PIN entry as well as the smartcard. Perhaps instead of cards directly, have this be a module that is included in cellphones, and the customer's smartcard be a SIM card. This way, further authentication can be added, such as fingerprints.

      Ultimately, the best would be a public key system where the customer signs each transaction with a private key stored on the smartcard, and the PIN entered in on something the customer possesses. Then, a fraudster can end up with the account number, but (barring any theft rings having a breakthrough in factoring) it would be absolutely useless to them unless they can get the RSA or elliptic curve key physically out of the smartcard itself. Instead of relying on account information, there should be a system where a customer can cryptographically sign each transaction. If the transaction isn't signed, its bogus.

      Of course, allowances need to be put in place for reoccurring transactions such as website subscription fees, but that would not take much work to put in place.

    9. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "...if you need to bring something and remember something, then it makes life a lot harder for hackers."

      But you're already bringing your card and remembering your PIN....

    10. Re:Is anyone here really surprised? by Pojut · · Score: 1

      I know it wasn't from Sherlock Holmes, but your quote provides the same basic idea.

      Why were you modded down? Must be that time of the month, I suppose...

  3. Damn you Clippy! by techpawn · · Score: 4, Funny

    Damn you to hell!

    --
    Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    1. Re:Damn you Clippy! by holyspidoo · · Score: 2, Funny

      "It looks like you're entering your secret PIN. Would you like help?"

      I never should have said yes...

    2. Re:Damn you Clippy! by countSudoku() · · Score: 1

      HA! You can be sure Clippy is up to no good when he's packing something called a Field Programmable Gatorade. Whatever that is, it sounds refreshing *and* programmable.

      --
      This is the NSA, we're gonna geet U h@x0r5! Also, what is a h@x0r5?
    3. Re:Damn you Clippy! by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  4. They're looking in the wrong place by blhack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The huge security hole in the credit card system is the users. I flipped out at one of our vendors when they STORED my credit card number in their database, and just went ahead an charged it next time I was in the store.
    People will gladly give their credit card number over the phone to a shady pizza shop, just to get a 15 dollar pizza delivered to their door.
    We could build the most secure credit card system in the world, but the problem is that it has to be simple enough for idiots to use.

    --
    NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    1. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why shouldn't we? If someone steals our card, we can dispute the charges and get a new charge. We lose nothing, it's the merchant who has to foot the bill.

    2. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Informative

      Which is not a problem if you use virtual account numbers (what Citibank calls it. I'm sure other banks have the same thing with different names) that are only authorized for one transaction for the amount you specify.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by Fnord666 · · Score: 4, Funny

      but the problem is that it has to be simple enough for idiots to use.
      Even then someone will just build a better idiot.
      --
      'The tyrant will always find pretext for his tyranny.' - Aesop's Fables
    4. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      The huge security hole in the credit card system is the users.

      A security hole is users. The biggest, doubtfull.

      I have had fraudulent CC activity 2*,
      first time was because my CC company sent me un-requsted cash advance checks that were stolen from my mailbox (the guilty are now in jail)
      second time was after a self serve gas station, guessing a camera pointed at the card reader.

      Both of these are easily solved by the bank, it is going to be difficult for the users to keep appraised of all the new fraud attacks. Simple electrical tape will cover, and re-stick if needed to be exposed. But a better card design incorporating similar would be desired. Not sending junk, would solve the first...

      Your example is highly unlikely to cause fraud,
      1)monitoring phone calls for a number is time consuming per paying result.
      2)an occasional CC number doesn't typically pay enough per effort.

      so targeting high traffic places is where the fraud will be directed as well.
    5. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by ad0gg · · Score: 1

      Vendors are the worse. I signup for a reoccuring bill cycle for an online game. They asked for the CVN(number on the back). They aren't allowed to store this number so why would they ask for it? I always wondered if I entered a fake CVN, would my credit card auth would fail at the end of the month.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    6. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by mcsqueak · · Score: 1

      Which is not a problem if you use virtual account numbers (what Citibank calls it. I'm sure other banks have the same thing with different names) that are only authorized for one transaction for the amount you specify.

      Yeah, Bank of America has a similar system and it's pretty neat. The only downsides I have discovered:

      • I made a purchase online for something like $30, and I authorized my one-time card number for just a few bucks over this. The store messed up, and wound up having to refund me and re-do the transaction. Since they had this one-time number and it wasn't authorized for enough money to cover these two transactions, it caused issues. Long story short I then had to call them and give them my real card number. The whole reason I used the one-time card number is because it was a house-wares site I had never heard of (but had an item I was having trouble finding in stock) and didn't want some criminal front running off with my number.
      • Bank of America will only make these one-time use numbers for credit cards, not debit/check cards. I prefer not to put my normal purchases on my credit card, but if I want this additional layer of security I'm forced to. I now have to remember to pay this transaction off of my credit card before the month closes. If they could extend this feature to their debit cards it would be great.
    7. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by mcsqueak · · Score: 1

      second time was after a self serve gas station, guessing a camera pointed at the card reader.

      I've heard of a scam at gas stations and ATMs where a "fake front" is placed onto the unit. This has a device inside that steals your credit card numbers when you place your card into the device. If you're in a hurry you might not notice. The thieves then come back later, remove the device and have all the card numbers that were used.

    8. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by Grygus · · Score: 1

      Some do, some don't. I once lost my card but had the number memorized, so I used it for online transactions. I had the card number right but had misremembered the CVN, though I didn't discover this for several months because the wrong one I was entering worked most of the time. Paypal and Blizzard were the only two merchants that actually rejected it. I wonder why the rest even asked since they obviously weren't checking.

    9. Re:They're looking in the wrong place by ad0gg · · Score: 1

      It costs money to check the CVN number. More security checks you add, more expensive the transaction is. AVS(address verification aka check the zip code) was 39 cent charge last time i checked.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

  5. You bastards shouldn't have insisted he be fired! by StefanJ · · Score: 1

    If Clippy had been allowed to hang around in Windows he would at least been kept off the streets.

    In related news, the alternate Clippy, the advice dog, lost his job as a neuticles model and was sold to a company that tests military grade blood-clotting bandages. He's shot in the abdomen three days a week so trainees can learn how to apply the dressings. And all because you didn't want a friendly little animated help-mate watching after you.

    You bastards.

  6. Paper clip? by evil+agent · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ross Anderson, Saar Drimer, and Steven Murdoch demonstrated how a simple paper clip can be used to capture account numbers and PINs

    Hmm, Macgyver must have tipped them off.

    --
    End transmission.
    1. Re:Paper clip? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Hmm, Macgyver must have tipped them off.

      Yeah, but MacGyver would have been able to do it with a paper clip made of paper.

    2. Re:Paper clip? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Ross Anderson Saar Drimer and Steven Murdoch

      Anagram:
      Mad Mr. Richard Dean Anderson's E-Voter runs OSS.

  7. Tapping by esocid · · Score: 1
    From TFP

    while a wire routed from the back of a mounted Dione PED to a recorder unit under the counter will not be detected unless the cardholder conducts a very close inspection - and knows what to look for.
    At least I now know what to look for. The paper has pictures and examples of the exploits in the designs and lack of security. Either way I'll be carrying more cash from now on.
    --
    Absolute power corrupts absolutely. indymedia
    1. Re:Tapping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Either way I'll be carrying more cash from now on.'

      Cool, meet me in the alley, behind the supermarket.

  8. This is a UK/Europe card system issue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    What people are missing in this is that this pertains to certain card types mainly used in Europe. The type with RFID or embedded chips used for security. On standard US debit cards, there is no information sent to the card or from the card that ties to the PIN. The PIN is only seen by the pinpad component and immediately encrypted using a rotating DKPUT key algorithm before that, the card number and a sequence number are sent to be translated by a hardware security module. The pin pads themselves used by most US retailers are secure and do not pose a risk. If you tamper with most of those devices (example, the Welch Allyns used by best buy, lowe's and others) then the injected keys are erased and PIN translation fails. They normally don't remain out too long if they are tampered with since the stores will consider them broken and unusable when they don't work anymore. This is related to the system in place and used in the UK. The US system, while old, is only being updated currently to support the new double length key requirements and have not incorporated smart card support or RFID (except a few gas station chains). The most important thing in the US is to protect the card database since the data on the mag stripe can be used as a credit card. As for PIN security, don't tell others your pin, notice hidden cameras that look out of place and point at PIN pads and you should be safe. The way PIN numbers are stored at banks within a hardware security module is safe and those devices are very sensative to outside attack. They even employ motion sensors to prevent tampering in HSMs.

    1. Re:This is a UK/Europe card system issue... by Ritchie70 · · Score: 0

      Mod this AC up, this is spot-on.

      The Verifone terminals I've dealt with (Everest and Omni 7000 series) will discard their encryption keys for the DUKPT if the are disassembled, or even if they're subjected to too hard of a shock. We've taken out a few just by dropping them.

      From a "mental model" viewpoint, in the US, the PIN is encrypted practically in the plastic key-caps. An unencrypted PIN is never transmitted across a wire, even in those little PINPad devices that are PIN-entry only peripherals of a typical terminal.

      RFID is supported at more than a few gas stations, though. I've seen them at almost every McDonald's I've been in lately.

      --
      The preferred solution is to not have a problem.
    2. Re:This is a UK/Europe card system issue... by ChadM · · Score: 1

      Many newer models use 3DES instead of DUKPT. The firm I work for already only ships 3DES compliant PIN pad units, as the processor we run our merchants through will soon require it.

      In addition to the reasons listed by Ritchie in the parent post, simply plugging the PIN pad into the terminal without unplugging the power first will cause it to delete it's encryption key. We get to replace them quite often, when merchants attach them before reading the big red warning label we attach to the boxes we ship them in. We then get to ship the unencrypted PIN pad to our hardware supplier so they can reload the encryption key.

  9. Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by apenzott · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The PIN needs to be a moving target and much longer than 4 digits. Note that stateside that most automatic car washes are using at least 5 digit numbers to authenticate the sale as sold by the gas pump. (Example: SecurID or one-time pad.)

    (offtopic)
    My biggest pet peeve is why are account numbers (on checks) in the clear while the same is basically true of PIN numbers (without any added "salt")

    For checks I would like to see the account number + check number translated a 16 to 20 digit hash of which only the bank knows how to decipher to the correct account and check number?
    (/offtopic)

    --
    The Roman Rule: The one who says it cannot be done shall not interrupt the one who is doing it.
    1. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by Shadow-isoHunt · · Score: 1

      Given that a one way hash can't really be reversed, that idea doesn't make much sense in the way that you posted it. A one way hash at first makes sense, except in reality it doesn't, as currently deployed. The numbers on your check have a routing number and account number. Both are numeric values with relatively few permutations when contrasted against case sensitive alphanumeric hashing. The routing numbers of banks are also no secret. Put simply, it'd be a trivial matter to brute force the hash with the simple numeric values we use today.

      --
      www.isoHunt.com
    2. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "of which only the bank knows"
      security through obscurity doesn't work. someones, somewhere will figure it out. Then you will think you are secure, less people will be looking out for potential fraud thus giving more room to the fraudsters.

      I have said it many times. Barring a radically new development, something that is a complete paradigm shift(literally not market speak) digital money will fail. You can NOT secure it for any real length of time.

      My 'guts' tells me it can be done. I would love to put together a team from the companies for the sole purpuse of making these crimes harder, and develop specs for manufacturing that must be adhered to in order for it to be sold. Specs to adhere to to transfer the information. Remember, digitial money is only information, know different then this post.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      Or better yet, encrypt the routing number/account number with a public key from the organization. Then only they can decrypt it with their private key. Or you could take it one step further and have the routing number BE the public key which encrypts your account number. Then only the issuing bank (and not the whole organization) can decrypt the information.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    4. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The bank's secret could just be an RSA key or something similar.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    5. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

      Something you have + something you know = secure enough for me to use in the wild. I want networked ATM,etc machines that accept smart cards. The card has a certificate or somesuch that can not be copied. The bank fires a challenge 'question' to the card. The card uses it's secret information to answer it. Then the transaction proceeds. As soon as you walk away with the card, the pin used to authorize things is useless. Something you have + something you know. I like the one time authorization scheme people mention as well. I'd use with one-time purchases with small retailers.

    6. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by jfim · · Score: 1

      PINs longer than four digits are available outside of the US(at least in Canada). Canadian banks warn travellers to the US to change longer PINs to have four digits, as longer PINs are not well supported by the US ATM network. I assume this is an issue of interoperability, as the US bank system must be quite complex with the large number of financial institutions.

    7. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by mlts · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure about the EU, but I know most of my credit cards support up to eight digits for a PIN. I take advantage of this whenever I can.

      As for the numbers printed on checks, apenzott has an excellent idea. It wouldn't be hard for banks to use a 128 or 256 bit encryption key stored in a secure location [1] and have each person's check printed with the encrypted bank account number, perhaps using the check number as the IV (so each check has a different value), although using the check number is a small keyspace for an IV.

      [1]: Hopefully assuming the encryption key is in a place at the bank where it won't get compromised.

    8. Re:Why isn't it a PIN = SecurID + PIN by paustin917 · · Score: 1

      Because the hardware currently can't handle it. The IBM 3890 or the Unisys sorters that they run on currently couldn't do this. Check processing for any bank is pretty much a losing proposition money wise. No way are they going to spend the money to develop a whole new software to interpret this code or upgrade the hardware to read it. MICR readers on sorters are very tempermental, one dot of micr ink out of place and it reads something crazy. How do I know? Been working in checks for 14 years and currently at the Federal Reserve with the group that supports and runs the Ck21 initiative.

  10. Tough Interview by Crazy+Man+on+Fire · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wow. The interview at the end of that piece has me floored. Imagine if industry people and politicians in the US were subjected to this sort of probing interview and actually responded. The interviewer had the representative from the credit card companies on the ropes the entire interview. Props to the BBC for doing some serious journalism.

    1. Re:Tough Interview by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

      Jeremy Paxman is famed for being incredibly tough on his witnesses (and contestants on University Challenge)

    2. Re:Tough Interview by ettlz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Jeremy Paxman is famed for being incredibly tough on his witnesses (and contestants on University Challenge)
      Yes, but did you threaten to overrule him?
    3. Re:Tough Interview by mapsjanhere · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The big advantage of a publicly funded TV program - the producers are less likely to cave in to advertiser's interests.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    4. Re:Tough Interview by d3vi1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      KUDOS to the BBC for being a leader in all fronts of the Mass-Media. This video proves that they can do serious journalism, something that most media companies have forgotten how to do.
      Short, correct and difficult to answer questions. Ask the right questions, that's all it takes.

      Bravo BBC

      --
      UNIX was not designed to stop you from doing stupid things, because that would also stop you from doing clever ones.
    5. Re:Tough Interview by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The presenter, Jeremy Paxman, is known for this sort of interview. In fact, he has the nickname "Paxman the Axeman".

    6. Re:Tough Interview by giorgiofr · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yup! Instead, they are managed by the gov't. Isn't that great!

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    7. Re:Tough Interview by trainman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed, I wish the media in this continent (we have the same problem with flaccid media in Canada too) would ask the tough questions like that. Alas most of the time the reporter doesn't even know what the story is about, and simply doesn't have the subject knowledge to ask such pointed questions. Then of course they would have to care enough to hold the subject accountable.

      Far too often I hear interviews were the subject gives some double-talk half twisted lie which makes no sense, and the interviewer simply accepts this line as fact. No follow up question, no challenging. It's turned me off watching TV news completely, because politicians continue to get away with the same lies unchallenged.

      I wish I knew how to fix this problem. I'm sure corporate control is part of the problem somehow. :)

    8. Re:Tough Interview by BovineSpirit · · Score: 3, Informative

      Jeremy Paxman is famous for being a tough questioner. His most notorious interview was with a slimy politician who later led the Tories to defeat against Tony Blair's Labour. I'm not sure what Paxman's personal politics are, but he certainly doesn't appreciate being messed around. Michael Howard can be sure that if one of his political opponents had weaseled around like that he would have had equally short shrift.

    9. Re:Tough Interview by Larry+Lightbulb · · Score: 1

      BBCAmerica is going to start broadcasting "Newsnight" from the 29th, though I don't know whether it's going to be the whole programme (for example, the reviews to the front pages of tomorrows newspapers won't always make sense). Paxo is heavily featured in the trails, along with the moments we remember him for.

    10. Re:Tough Interview by hairykrishna · · Score: 3, Informative
      For all you non-brits, this is a reference to a famous interview where Paxman famously asked Michael Howard exactly the same question 12 times in an attempt to get a straight answer: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5983432841587892898&q=paxman+howard&total=10&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 (3 minutes or so into the video).

      It is one of the finest pieces of political TV ever.

      --
      "Physics is to math as sex is to masturbation." -R. Feynman
    11. Re:Tough Interview by AtariDatacenter · · Score: 1

      You beat me to the punch. If our media wasn't so asleep and staying in the good graces of various groups for potential favors, rather than putting them in a position to defend themselves, maybe we'd get a little more truth in our news.

      In the US, this would be an incredible level of journalism.

    12. Re:Tough Interview by smurfsurf · · Score: 2, Informative

      The BBC is not managed by the government.

    13. Re:Tough Interview by pev · · Score: 1

      Props to the BBC for doing some serious journalism.

      Surely, if you're not actually asking the pertinent questions is it really journalism?
    14. Re:Tough Interview by mlts · · Score: 1

      In the US, we get an excellent level of journalism and thorough coverage of topics... ...if the topic is something related to a celebrity such as Britney Spears.

    15. Re:Tough Interview by m50d · · Score: 1

      And that's why the BBC funded independently of the government.

      --
      I am trolling
    16. Re:Tough Interview by jimicus · · Score: 1

      That's Jeremy Paxman. He really doesn't hold back - and it can be a thing of beauty to watch.

      Frankly, we could do with a few more interviewers like him - unfortunately, there's only a couple of shows where that kind of thing goes on.

    17. Re:Tough Interview by Don_dumb · · Score: 1

      You should see him when interviewing his own bosses, he is no different. I challenge any commercial broadcaster to be that balanced.
      I am always amazed at US 'news'-casters. They are either completely partial or as sycophantic as chat show hosts (no doubt just happy to have the interviewee), no wonder idiots like Bush (and I am not attacking his policies just his ability to display intelligence) get elected, no one actually questions people, the power is in the interviewee to be present and answer. In the UK Paxman is so revered by the public that at an election all the major party leaders go to interview with him - they would be considered cowards if they didn't. Of course they never go to interview with him when it isn't an election because they are also very afraid of him.

      Some of the beeb's journalism is lacking (Paramount, I'm looking at you) but Newsnight is possibly the most unbiased news program in the world - everyone gets the Rottwieler treatment.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    18. Re:Tough Interview by Don_dumb · · Score: 1

      Wrong, wrong, wrong.

      And if you look to your eariler sibling reply, you notice a famous video of Paxman grilling a government minister.

      Find me a more unbiased news source, not an unbiased, just a less biased news source.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    19. Re:Tough Interview by ayjay29 · · Score: 2, Informative

      >>Imagine if industry people and politicians in the US were subjected to this sort of probing interview... It's worth wathing NewsNight in the US when they cover US items (the BBC makes every program available on the web after broadcast). Sometimes Jeramy Paxman will get his teath into American politician or representative who is completly un prepared for this type of interview. It happened to someone high up in the US (can't remember who) administration in the lat Iraq conflict and he was really knocked back by the interview. Also Jeramy Paxman has been starting to get really sarcastic about some things lately, it's funny to watch. The link is here. Much better than the CBS news "And now some puppies will lick your face" and the BBC news "Post apocalyptic rave".

      --
      Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated up.
    20. Re:Tough Interview by assassinator42 · · Score: 1

      The video bitrate is 34kbps. Absolutely horrid. Do they reserve the decent quality video for people inside the UK?

    21. Re:Tough Interview by ayjay29 · · Score: 1

      >>The video bitrate is 34kbps. Absolutely horrid. Do they reserve the decent quality video for people inside the UK?

      Yes.

      It's a pain being an ex-pat living abroad. The BBC is funded by the UK government and UK licence payers and aimed at UK viewers. I usually set Newsnight running in a player window and listen to it whilst working, it's not something you would watch without multi-tasking. Shame they can't just upload it to youtube or bittorrent if they want to budget on bandwidth.

      --
      Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated up.
  11. Most will for large-ticket items by davidwr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While it's true they don't have to do business with you, most stores will accept a $50 rather than lose out on a $55 purchase. Ditto a $100 and lose out on a $101 purchase.

    It boils down to risk:
    Most people passing funny money will want to get change rather than goods they can only resell at diminished value.

    Also, many merchants use basic anti-counterfeit measures when accepting $20s and higher. Granted these measures have a high miss rate but they do catch amateurs.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Most will for large-ticket items by Dogtanian · · Score: 4, Funny

      While it's true they don't have to do business with you, most stores will accept a $50 rather than lose out on a $55 purchase. Ditto a $100 and lose out on a $101 purchase. They're evidently not that keen. Last time I tried to make a $53 purchase with large-value bills, they refused.

      The cheek of it- my $50 bills are as good as anyone else's! As was the $3 bill...
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    2. Re:Most will for large-ticket items by akozakie · · Score: 2

      Anti-counterfeit measures work well enough on many currencies, but with US dollars it's rather difficult. The new dollars are good enough, but the problem stems from the fact that demonetization is currently prohibited in the USA and even very old banknotes are legal tender. It's a problem in banks around the world - you have to learn to look for giveaways on several versions of each note, and the old ones are not very well protected. It's a tradeoff - you get more counterfeit money in circulation, but you also get a certainty that money stored in a box somewhere (or in a bank's vault) will still be good for e.g. a /. subscription after many years.

  12. Jail Time? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2, Insightful

    British television featured a demonstration of the attack on BBC Newsnight."
    I'll bet that would land you in jail over here (USA) ...
    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  13. MacGyver by j4s0n · · Score: 2, Funny

    How far you've fallen...

  14. What not to do by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    Every time I see these stories, it reminds me of how they'd say not to do drugs in school, then show us exactly how not to do them...

    And here's a link of exactly what you should NEVER do because it is illegal!

    (posts to internet site frequented by absolutely everyone)

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:What not to do by scottv67 · · Score: 1

      Every time I see these stories, it reminds me of how they'd say not to do drugs in school, then show us exactly how not to do them...

      And here's a link of exactly what you should NEVER do because it is illegal!


      The article was not written as a HOWTO. The article exposes methods that criminals are already using to steal credit card info today. A drug-related analogy (since you mentioned "just say no") would be an anti-drug video shown to parents that provides details on how to cook and inject drugs. The purpose of the video is not to instruct adults on how to use drugs. The purpose of the video is to make parents aware of the process so that they can recognize a spoon that has been blackened by a drug user in their home as a sign that something bad is going-on.

  15. I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by wsanders · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >> "As described in some detail in our paper, the basic attack tool is a paper clip. In order to record and analyze transactions a couple hundred pounds' worth of equipment is required, in addition to some digital design experience."

    OK, a paper clip. PLUS A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF.

    Well, shoot, I could probably build an atomic weapon with a paper clip. PLUS A BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 2, Funny

      Macguyver wouldn't need the other stuff...just some gum. And you call yourself a nerd...shameful

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    2. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by wsanders · · Score: 1

      I would suppose that two pieces of gum, accelerated sufficiently and fired head-on at head other, would result in a fissile reaction. You might have something there.

      --
      Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    3. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by wsanders · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fissile

      Actually I stand corrected - it won't work. But it would make a mess!

      --
      Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    4. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by garett_spencley · · Score: 1

      That's true but it seems like, while it's trivial to break, it would also be trivial to fix.

      All they need to do is encrypt the account and PIN numbers on the card and then have them compared with the encrypted numbers on the bank's system and problem solved.

      The way they've managed to break it is essentially to "tap" into the card readers and intercept the account and PIN numbers from the card. Then the fraudsters make fake cards with the information. It seems like ridiculously lousy authentication because a) the banks are trusting the cards with nothing more than the plain-text PIN and account number and b) they're being transmitted in plain-text. This is like 1980's network security where you could just sniff packets and get people's telnet passwords. You would think that they'd have learned.

      The companies are defending themselves by saying "you would need a high level of expertise to break the system". But all you need is a basic understanding of soldering, an Internet connection (to Google some tutorials) and unsupervised access to a terminal (something that any store employee being paid minimum wage would have on occasion in theory).

    5. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by johnny+maxwell · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, you have to admit that that in this case the paper clip is quite important.
      For those of you who haven't actually read the article (it is not unheard of!):
      They use it to peel through a hole in the back of a owner-accessible compartment for some rarely used extra modules to insert it into an open via in the pcb which just happens to carry a serial data line transmitting PIN and card details...

      You could even nicely mount your eavesdropper circuit in that compartment.

      This is quite startling IMO, as the designers of the module have gone to great lengths to hide most signals under layers of a dense sensor-maze to prevent access by drilling your way into the lower layers of the circuit board.

    6. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by johnny+maxwell · · Score: 1

      The companies are defending themselves by saying "you would need a high level of expertise to break the system". But all you need is a basic understanding of soldering, an Internet connection (to Google some tutorials) and unsupervised access to a terminal (something that any store employee being paid minimum wage would have on occasion in theory). The problem is, they are getting away with it! At least here in Europe, jurisdiction usually assumes that the system is secure and that the fact that you lost money in a card fraud must therefore be obviously some negligence on your part.

      Studies like this one are therefore very important, if only to educate judges...
    7. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by Scooter · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a sketch show I saw years ago (might have been Smith and Jones) where they demonstrated how, in prisons, with a few simple modifications, a standard hair comb could be converted to a deadly weapon. It turned out to be a hair comb with an M16 rifle taped to it....

      "I think you'll agree - this comb could now be used to take down prison guards with ease.."

      Also see "nail soup"

    8. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by jimicus · · Score: 1

      The thing is, there are already examples of tampered PIN pads being used to capture people's card details - for example, see:

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4980190.stm

      All these researchers did was discover if the people who were behind this fraud had to be a fantastically sophisticated criminal gang with insiders working at the garage, the bank clearing house and the PIN-pad manufacturers - or if anyone with a bit of motivation anf a few relatively basic tools could do it.

      It turns out that pretty much anyone could do it.

    9. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by Sobrique · · Score: 1

      What, you don't use Uranium, to make paperclips? Shame on you. Think of the potential for if you need a nuke in a hurry.

    10. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1
      Unless you're talking about active encryption on the customer card, encrypting the data on the mag stripe won't help. I'd still be able to replay the mag stripe contents to get a valid auth; the only difference would be that I couldn't read it in plain text.


      My ideal solution would be to have crypto built in to the card like the $5 Paypal security fobs. BTW, they work at paypal, eBay, and for Verisign's openID offering. Sweet!

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    11. Re:I can build an atomic weapon with a paper clip by wsanders · · Score: 1

      No, it's the uranium flavored gum MacGyver needs.

      --
      Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
  16. Clippy? Is that you? by bryny · · Score: 3, Funny

    It looks like you are trying to crack an account. Would you like help?

  17. Carry Cash! by LoudMusic · · Score: 1

    Quick, everyone start carrying wads of cash instead of using credit cards!

    It doesn't really matter what technology you use for monetary transactions, there are bad people who will work harder to steal it than to earn their own money. Just minimalise your risk and stop worrying about it.

    Mainstream media is the worst terrorist.

    --
    No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
    1. Re:Carry Cash! by LunaticTippy · · Score: 1

      Oh great. If everyone carries cash for everything guess what next week's headline will be.

      MUGGINGS UP 300%!!

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
    2. Re:Carry Cash! by ameyer17 · · Score: 1

      How is cash safer? If I use a brute-force attack and take your credit card, in theory you don't lose anything. If I use a brute-force attack and take your big wad of bills, you'll never see them again.

    3. Re:Carry Cash! by hitmark · · Score: 1

      and then we are back to hitting people from behind and grabbing their wallets...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    4. Re:Carry Cash! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      They can only take what you have on you.
      No one has you arrested because they want to make you the criminal.
      It is very hard to hold someone up from overseas
      To rob you people have to be exposed to the surroundings.

      I want how much money was physically taken from people in that same time period?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Carry Cash! by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      That's what guns are for.

      "Hey, gimme your wallet or I'll cut you!"

      BAM!

  18. Another hole in the sieve? by syousef · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Credit cards are so incredibly insecure that the only reason people use them is that the banks so far have been willing to cover the costs of fraud (in most cases and as long as the card holder hasn't contributed to it through negligence).

    This is just one more flaw.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Another hole in the sieve? by |Cozmo| · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's because the banks don't eat the cost of fraud, the merchants do. If I have an online store and someon uses a stolen card to buy something from me, I'm the one that gets screwed. The credit card companies reverse the charge, AND charge the merchant a fee for it happening. Then the merchant is out the money, a fee, AND the product they shipped to a thief. The lamest part is the credit card companies don't even provide you the tools to prove that a transaction is legitimate.

    2. Re:Another hole in the sieve? by Sosarian · · Score: 1

      I don't know about where you live, but the credit card companies/banks are required by law to cover the costs minus fifty dollars where I live, which they usually waive.

      They could refuse to offer credit under those conditions though, it's obviously still making them money at this point.

    3. Re:Another hole in the sieve? by tecmec · · Score: 1

      I believe that's why the merchant is supposed to at least make a half-assed attempt at checking the signature...but how often does that really happen?

    4. Re:Another hole in the sieve? by ChadM · · Score: 1

      AVS and CVV2 are in fact tools that can be used to mitigate risk. The merchant can enter the billing address, zip code, as well as the CVV2 which is printed on the back of the card. The network response will indicate if they match up or not. It's not 100% fool proof, but it can help a non-swiping merchant mitigate the risk of fraud.

      The only way a fraudster would be able to get their hands on the CVV2 would be to physically check the back of the card, hack the issuing bank's database, or lift it from another merchant's database. Technically though, the CVV2 should never be stored by a merchant as that would violate their agreement with the card issuer. I am not a lawyer, but I would think that if a merchant stores the CVV2, and the card info is stolen from them and then used fraudulently somewhere else, they could be held liable if it is traced back to them. There is also the possibility that an actual card holder might give it up due to a phishing scam, but if that's the case it's their own damn fault.

      I work in the processing industry and have come to the conclusion that many fraudulent charges happen like this:

      1. Merchant gets phone/internet order for a large amount of product/service.
      2. AVS or CVV2 doesn't match but the merchant has dollar signs in their eyes and ships/provides service anyways.
      3. Transaction turns out to be fraudulent.
      4. Actual cardholder disputes transaction they didn't initiate. Merchant loses money from the sale, gets a chargeback fee, and can't get their product/service back.
      5. Merchant decides to not accept future transactions unless the CVV2 & AVS match up, or the customer can adequately explain why they don't.
      6. Merchant is now less likely to get scammed.

    5. Re:Another hole in the sieve? by Insightfill · · Score: 1

      I believe that's why the merchant is supposed to at least make a half-assed attempt at checking the signature...but how often does that really happen?

      According to this guy, not very often. (Links to "The Credit Card Prank" - guy runs around signing various fake signatures unable to get ANYONE to check it until he buys three plasma TVs for 16K at Circuit City.)

  19. Use the sauce, Luke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is, after all, Web 2.0. With The Onion and video links posted on slashdot, with embedded flash ads,, and no website slashdotted for years, times have unfortunately changed since real techheads hung out here. But fear not, because we can go to the sauce and have a conversation with the professor and his team that did this research.

    1. Re:Use the sauce, Luke by DittoBox · · Score: 1

      I'm not 100% sure what you're smoking but sites go down once or twice a week after being posted to /.

      --
      Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
  20. Re:You bastards shouldn't have insisted he be fire by CastrTroy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Does anybody else find it condescending to have little animated characters pop-up on your screen and try to help you. Some of us actually know how to use a computer, and find it insulting that you'd try to make the system more friendly with stupid animated characters.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  21. No cards for small transactions by dj245 · · Score: 0

    I no longer use credit cards for small transactions. Usually, my small transactions are at places where the employees are paid poorly and the manager is somewhere else at the moment and doesn't care anyway. This includes restaurants where the waitor takes your card out of your sight. I don't want my cards stolen just because I didn't tip enough or Romero can't make rent.

    Larger transactions are usually a little more safer. The merchants are usually more careful who they hire or care more about employees stealing cards. Additionally, if the the services or goods are no good then you can have the credit card issuer help you out.

    Two of my friends have had card numbers stolen. both of them suspect a resaurant or bar. In both cases, the items purchased were Wal Mart money orders (and $500 worth of fireworks in one case). Forcing Walmart not to enable buying of money orders with cards would be a great help. The US Post office already has this policy.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    1. Re:No cards for small transactions by Orbijx · · Score: 1

      The US Post office already has this policy.

      You are aware that if someone has your PIN number in the US, they can still purchase a money order with your Debit card at a Post Office, right?

      I'm aware of this, as I buy money orders every two weeks, and it certainly helps that I don't have to pay $4 (!) in ATM fees to withdraw a couple hundred bucks to go get said money order.

      --
      One of these days, I am going to flip out. When I flip out, I'll be back in five minutes.
  22. Where's the crypto? by Junta · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've been wanting something much more sophisticated than a 'shared secret' that you have to give to anyone to give money. If I let random restaurant a charge me 2 bucks for a drink, I have to give them potentially full access to my accounts.

    Where's my private/public cryptography? I want to carry around my own damned device with keypad and display. The display would show me *exactly* what my financial institution will think I'm authorizing, and the keypad would be used to enter the passphrase to decrypt my private key, which is never ever ever transferred outside of the devices local filesystem. It's generated by the device and the public portion uploaded in a secure manner to my financial institution. The secure manner is a complicated issue, but there are degrees of inconvenience that can be induced to do it right, and allow me to opt to allow nothing more convenient than that.

    I go to a damn store or online retailer.. When ready to purchase, it somehow gets the data to my device (maybe encrypt with my public key, maybe direct connect to my device, maybe through the financial institution, whatever, the security risk in this transaction being the nature of what I'm buying, not in any way risking the actual money being transfered). I enter my passphrase (which could be as simplistic as a 4-digit pin, but at my discretion, not theirs) to signify accepting the terms my display gives me (i.e. authorized wal-mart to take 5 dollars from my account this one time, or authorize phone company to withdraw no more than 25 dollars on a monthly basis, the transaction may have tolerances and periodic, but always show me the tolerances and period and *who* I'm really authorizing to get the mony). With my private key decrypted, use it to sign the payload, then my financial institution *must* receive that cryptographically signed authorization to transfer payment. The retailer *never* has anything more than data to confirm that one transaction (or reuse for repeat data if I declare that trust, within definable thresholds). To commit 'identity theft' (horrible phrase), they would either need to compromise the financial institutions database with *write* access to replace my public key with their own (by the way, invalidating my real key so I should notice it) or steal my device physically, which I should know. The device should overwrite memory contents where the key was with random bytes every time it completes an authorization, and therefore physical theft or tampering should lead to a dead end without my passphrase.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Where's the crypto? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no incentive to the banks or VISA/MC to do this, and they drive that bus in the US. $how me the money.

    2. Re:Where's the crypto? by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You forgot the step where your computer has a key logger installed and someone overseas now has all your data.

      That's not even getting into your other major flaw, and your incorrect assumption.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Where's the crypto? by lixee · · Score: 1

      Reading Slashdot is indeed the ??? *Rushes to patent office*

      --
      Res publica non dominetur
    4. Re:Where's the crypto? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the single most convenient method for purchasing goods and services that I've ever heard of. And think of the space I'll save in my wallet!

    5. Re:Where's the crypto? by WK2 · · Score: 1

      As it is now, any number of things can allow someone to impersonate me, most of them involving a thief getting my personal information from somebody else. There is little I can do about it.

      With a secure authentication system, the only way someone could impersonate me is if I make a mistake. Much better. The old fashioned "username and password are the same" needs to go.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    6. Re:Where's the crypto? by Junta · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You forgot the step where your computer has a key logger installed and someone overseas now has all your data. Someone steals my device or gains unauthorized access and *then* returns it to me unnoticed is *far* more likely to be noticed than taking my card, scribbling the number on the front and back, and putting it back. Or for random POS equipment to be instrumented that I interact with. Or for some old-fashioned place with the carbon copies or some stands to be set up. At least the security risk lies in the implementation of the device, *not* fundamental to the system. Sure, *the* most secure proposition is currency, but other than direct physical interaction, currency is *not* feasible for the same reasons its good for face to face. Mail currency and anyone can intercept and use it, as it's not traceable and not targeted.

      That's not even getting into your other major flaw, and your incorrect assumption. It would be much easier to discuss those points if you at least mentioned what they were.
      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    7. Re:Where's the crypto? by NWprobe · · Score: 1

      Of course a "perfect system" which encrypts everything _can_ be designed. However, when in a remote location in Africa a master / visa creditcard comes in handy. Not every part of the world has a reliable fast internet connection or phone line for verification. In case of fraud, I'll get my money back (err...it's credit, I don't even have to pay it in the first place). This makes this a problem for the financial institutions, not the customers. The only problem I'll have is a mild inconvenience of denying the charge to my credit card. The benefits of the insecure system outweighs the cons, at least for now from a consumers standpoint.

      --
      #find /dev/brain find: no such file or directory
    8. Re:Where's the crypto? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the U.S., the retailer has no access to the pin number that is typed in. (At least, that's how it was 15 years ago). We would always have to physically send our new pin-pad units to the bank so they could enter their key. Pin numbers were encrypted on the device itself as soon as they were entered, and we would send the long encrypted string back to our bank for processing.

      They pretty much sounds like what you are asking for. This article is talking about systems in the United Kingdom, where it sounds like the devices do not encrypt the data. (Maybe that's were you live -- you didn't say).

    9. Re:Where's the crypto? by fullgandoo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, chip cards (EMV) do work in a manner similar to what you describe (public/private key encryption). The problem highlighted by the report is that it is possible to capture the PIN as it passes from the PIN pad before being transmitted. This part of the equation is unencrypted atleast in one model of terminals from one manufacturer. As far as I know, just about every other POS terminal as well as the keyboards on the ATMs only pass on encrypted PINs (except for older models!).

      So, what do you loose if your PIN is compromised? Actually, nothing in a perfect world. That is, a world with only chip cards. The problem is that an overwhelming majority of transactions are being performed on plain old magnetic stripe cards. The amount of infrasturcture already out there prevents an overnight shifting to chip cards, and that is why every card with a chip also has a magnetic stripe.

      So if you have a clear PIN and you have the data on the magentic stripe of a card, then it is trivial to reproduce the card and then use it on an ATM with the PIN to withdraw cash.

      If you have a secure chip only card, then more than 90% of the world's terminals will not work for you, including just about every terminal in north America.

    10. Re:Where's the crypto? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Why not just make the party extending the credit responsible for any fraud in the transaction? They might decide that they need a system that makes it very difficult to create a fraudulent transaction(like you describe), or they might decide that they can make more money with a less convoluted system(in which case everybody still wins, except the fraudsters).

      The problem with the current system is that consequences are often dumped on people that are powerless to prevent them, not the frequency of fraudulent transactions.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    11. Re:Where's the crypto? by clekosrule · · Score: 1

      If I let [a] random restaurant a charge me 2 bucks for a drink, I have to give them potentially full access to my accounts. Yep, hence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_security.
    12. Re:Where's the crypto? by rastoboy29 · · Score: 1

      I agree.

      As a corollary, I'd like to be able to use any password I want, of any length (ok, say up to 1MB), on any website or other place that needs a password.  Everybody has all these damn rules about MUST contain 1 number or symbol or MUST NOT contain certain symbols and such--and it makes it impossible for me to memorize all the 1 quintillion passwords I need these days.  I refuse to write my passwords down, but all these random and arbitrary rules make it impossible for me to work out any sort of mnemonic system.

      No, I shouldn't HAVE to use a number, particularly if I can have areallyreallylongpasswordeventhoughitdoesnothaveanynumbers.

    13. Re:Where's the crypto? by darkfire5252 · · Score: 1

      To commit 'identity theft' (horrible phrase), they would either need to compromise the financial institutions database with *write* access to replace my public key with their own (by the way, invalidating my real key so I should notice it) or steal my device physically, which I should know. I agree with what you said, except for this bit. To commit bank/credit card fraud, they would need to compromise your information that allows you to make transactions from your existing account. To commit identity theft, they still would just need to convince some bank B that they are you and to receive a line of credit. If they do that, the relationship between you and bank A really doesn't play into the picture.
  23. Doesn't apply to US card systems by 33tango · · Score: 2, Insightful

    US Cards do not have the pin stored on the card. That's like keeping your password in your top desk drawer. This attack will not affect US Cardholders. Could you accomplish the same thing? Yes, but much more difficultly. And that's what security really is about, making a target so difficult thieves go elsewhere.

    1. Re:Doesn't apply to US card systems by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The video wouldn't play properly for me (stutters, after a few minutes stops playing entirely) but are you sure the PIN they take is read from the card and not the keypad?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Doesn't apply to US card systems by goofyspouse · · Score: 1

      And that's what security really is about, making a target so difficult thieves go elsewhere.
      Elsewhere, in this case, means Europe I guess.
    3. Re:Doesn't apply to US card systems by 33tango · · Score: 1

      Their verbage in the article mentions capturing the pin as it's being confirmed/transmitted to the card. The pin isn't stored on the card in US systems. That's the highly touted "Smart Card" that we never really adopted in the US, except maybe for use in a laundromat. The only thing on your magstripe is your card number and optionally your name. Is it possible for someone to plant a bogus unit that could retrieve the data? Sure, and a waiter can skim your card number on the way to the register. You could plant a bogus ATM and get all the data you want. Also 3DES standard requires a metal tamper switched enclosure around the encrypting pinpad, which the one in the video looked to be totally plastic. our system encrypts the data at the pinpad, so getting in between it and the retailer just means you now need to break a rotating 128bit encryption (yes, possible;no, not worth the effort) In the US I'd be more concerned that there is no safeguard against any criminal buying an ATM and doing whatever he wants with it. 20/20 did an episode where a guy convicted for that type of fraud who did his jail time got out and bought another ATM and had it installed in a gas station. There is no safeguard in place.

  24. Re:[Encrypted account and check numbers] by apenzott · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Given that a one way hash can't really be reversed, that idea doesn't make much sense in the way that you posted it. A one way hash at first makes sense, except in reality it doesn't, as currently deployed. The numbers on your check have a routing number and account number. Both are numeric values with relatively few permutations when contrasted against case sensitive alphanumeric hashing. The routing numbers of banks are also no secret. Put simply, it'd be a trivial matter to brute force the hash with the simple numeric values we use today. OK, I'm using the wrong terminology.

    Routing number keeps the same public self (we need to send the check to the correct bank for processing.)

    Account number xxxxxxxx Check number yyyyy becomes zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    Issuing bank has key to turn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz back into original component numbers and verify that z... was not some made-up number in attempt to create a "bad check" of which there is no real account number attached to. Also xxxxxxxx, once extracted is verified to the name printed on the check. After about five or more bad values of z... in a day, a human is brought into the equation to look for the underlying cause.

    If check is good, then issuing bank electronically clears the bank draft with bank (or presents cash to individual) that presented the check. This allows for a pre-verification of check prior to verifying the signature (which most banks no longer do anyways.)

    I won't go into recurring drafts (automatic payments) as that makes things a bit more complicated.

    --
    The Roman Rule: The one who says it cannot be done shall not interrupt the one who is doing it.
  25. Re:[Encrypted account and check numbers] by Shadow-isoHunt · · Score: 2, Informative

    Check numbers are incrimental and of limited permutation, again making the hash easy to brute force. If the hash changes with each check, it also becomes harder for retailers to identify bad checks based on account number. You're going to end up turning away legitimate customers money, and gain no security. By the time the check hits the bank, the fraud has been done. Also, "once extracted is verified to the name printed on the check"? Depending on your bank, this is already done. I signed a check with my right hand instead of left once(couldn't hold the pen because I messed my hand up), and I got a call a few days later about it. I'm with WaMu.

    --
    www.isoHunt.com
  26. Worth pointing out by abigsmurf · · Score: 1

    As the woman in the interview said, this isn't a probable method of widespread attack. It requires lengthy access to a chip and pin terminal to drill a hole in it and run a wire through. This wire would have to lead to a box or wireless transmitter. Takes a while to do, isn't easy to remove quickly and requires permanent evidence.

    On the otherhand, you can attach a skimmer to a reader to copy the magnetic strip and set up a camera to capture the pin in 5 minutes and remove it in 20 seconds. Far easier method of attack.

    Both of these methods are actually only possible because of insecure ATMs which don't read chips. At the moment there are so many countries that use outdated ATMs that it's not worth banks banning card use in countries where this type of fraud is possible.

  27. What we really need is a secure ID RFID Token by jameskojiro · · Score: 1

    That is pretty much automatic, like a rotating RFID token That has your pin encoded on it, this is really the only type of RFID I would accept. My current RSA credit card toekn has a LCD screen with numbers on it and it lasted me years, a credit card with a simular feature with no screen the batteries would last for years and years and with no physical contact replacements would be needed far and few.

    --
    Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  28. Re:Tapping -- knowing what to look for. by MickLinux · · Score: 1

    Keep away from banks that have paper clips! Actually, be careful about banks with staples, too!

    Oh, and one other thing to look for. Look for the authors of this paper in a maximum security prison, after complaints by the banking industry. We've seen this before with ATMs in france.

    --
    Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
  29. Re:[Encrypted account and check numbers] by apenzott · · Score: 1

    Check numbers are [incremental] and of limited permutation, again making the hash easy to brute force. If the hash changes with each check, it also becomes harder for retailers to identify bad checks based on account number. You're going to end up turning away legitimate customers money, and gain no security. By the time the check hits the bank, the fraud has been done. Also, "once extracted is verified to the name printed on the check"? Depending on your bank, this is already done. I signed a check with my right hand instead of left once(couldn't hold the pen because I messed my hand up), and I got a call a few days later about it. I'm with WaMu. The banks encrypt/decrypt function could include some randomness to make that attack harder (five digits of "special salt" that is discarded once verified.)

    Conversation between Merchant and his bank:
    (note: this entire conversation may be electronic as most "cash registers" have the ability to read the MICR numbers across the bottom of the check.)

    Merchant to bank: I have a customer that has presented me a check with the following routing number and account number blob for this amount.

    Merchants bank: let me check with issuing bank.

    Merchants bank to issuing bank: I have a check with the routing number, account number blob for this amount.

    Issuing bank to Merchant bank: [Good to go] [NSF] [call the cops]

    Merchant bank to merchant: [endorse check and put into register] [casually advise customer he may want to talk to his bank] [hold check for USSS and FBI for further analysis]

    Merchant to customer [have a nice day] [I'll accept your check but your bank would like you to call them] [have a nice day (customer leaves, merchant burns surveillance videos to DVD--including close-up of customers license plate, crime scene rules in play.) | if mob operation, customer has "physical therapy" done to kneecaps with baseball bat.]

    Advantages: Account number not compromised by one missing check, Use same MICR numbers with minimal programming.

    Disadvantages: Account number not in clear, recurring automatic payments.
    --
    The Roman Rule: The one who says it cannot be done shall not interrupt the one who is doing it.
  30. so it's vulnerable? by mdaitc · · Score: 1

    so it's vulnerable?

    no, it's not vulnerable. it's not 100% safe

    so it's vulnerable?

  31. Keypad on the card by Alain+Williams · · Score: 4, Interesting
    What is really needed is that the cards have an integral keypad - so that communication between the chip and the keypad cannot be intercepted, you entering your PIN would activate the card that could then talk over an encrypted link (eg SSL) directly to the bank's computer.

    OK: this would make the cards somewhat bulky and since people tend to have several cards their pockets would bulge. So why not allow people to buy their own small keypads (which they trust to not have been tampered with) that they can plug their cards into and plug the whole lot into the retailer's machine.

    1. Re:Keypad on the card by Peeteriz · · Score: 1

      No, the real solution would be to ban transactions on obsolete (non-chip-compliant) ATM's.

      If a thief has (with this exploit or some other way) your card's magstripe and your PIN code, he should be able to get exactly $0.00 out of it, as that does not allow him to replicate the keys on chip used for most transaction.

      It becomes a problem only when the transaction falls back to magstripe, which is sometimes allowed for backwards compatibility reasons (ATMs in some countries).

    2. Re:Keypad on the card by eth1 · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't think a properly implemented system would need an encrypted link to the bank. The card has a keypad and a fingerprint reader (if we can get those small enough). It would work like this:
      - Plug card into POS device
      - Use keypad on card to choose which card to use (so you only have to carry one device)
      - POS device sends merchant ID and amount to the card
      - Use keypad enter card PIN/PW and fingerprint to decrypt the private key for the card you're using
      - Card signs a bank ID and key ID (so the bank knows what key to use on their end) and encrypts your account #, amount, and merchant id, then sends this back to the POS device
      - Merchant can send it however the heck they want to the bank, because only the bank can read it.

  32. Just a paper clip, huh? by chuck · · Score: 1

    Yeah, the summary is pretty misleading, since you need a paper clip, and field programmable gate array with RS232 interface or microcontroller. Yes, these are easy to obtain items, but the summary sounds like you can just use the paper clip. (And, I suppose feel the bits as electric shocks on your tongue or something.)

  33. I can always dream... by Junta · · Score: 1

    Seriously though, identity theft is one of the big scary monsters that is used to scare the public on a daily basis. If an offering that experts agreed was highly resistant to identity theft, some consumers may jump at it after all the fear mongering.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  34. Except... by Junta · · Score: 1

    How do I know someone hasn't disassembled the device, and put in some bug. Best case on the part of the device, extra pads under the buttons to register the presses, or a camera positioned just right.

    That's why I say my device must have a private keypad/display, so I don't have to trust the POS equipment at all. Besides, doesn't cover credit card numbers, which remains the significant share of online purchases.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  35. But still... by Junta · · Score: 1

    I'm having to trust the physical security of whatever device I'm interacting with, bringing my own keyboard and display gives me insurance on their mechanisms.

    And so the chip cards have processing elements on card that have data input and output, and never make available their contents to any device they interact with? Or is there assumption that the ATM/POS equipment is all trustworthy and secure and will discard the data and never be possibly compromised by a malicious retailer?

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  36. align responsiblity and CAPACITY for change... by big_paul76 · · Score: 1

    Bruce Schneier has written frequently on this topic, the problem is, the person in a position to do something about it (the bank) has no financial loss from fraud.

    If you made the banks, who have the capacity for change, liable, you'd see change.

    --
    The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
  37. How does Scientology fit in this?!? by IonOtter · · Score: 1

    Check the video. 12:03-12:07. The researcher mentions something about "Scientologists".

    It's all Xenu's fault! I KNEW IT!!

    --
    [End Of Line]
  38. Incredible urge... by Bulldust · · Score: 1

    I just have the urge to put my new chip Visa card into a Diebold... but I am afraid it will crash the Interwebs.

  39. Banks and Security by Accersitus · · Score: 3, Informative

    Banks seem to think a system is secure enough as long as the number of cases where customers are exploited, are few enough. This way the bank can repay the customers with little arguing, and prevent these stories from reaching the media. In Norway there is a story that has been running in the media where a Professor at the University of Bergen and a group of students have shown that the system used by Norwegian banks to offer Banking services on the internet have flaws that can be exploited. The banks take the same route and try to claim that the system is secure and have their PR people find technical terms like calling it a theoretical attack. (Actually the attack is far from theoretical). The interesting part is how the banks just keep trying to convince the media and people in general instead of sitting down with the researchers at the University and try to find a solution. After the first case in the media, the banks worked to fix the security holes, but the researchers didn't even need a day to find a way around the new protections. Since this system is considered for a national authentication standard the appropriate minister in the Norwegian government is involved, and is siding with the professor and not the banks.

  40. Weakest link by jkro · · Score: 0

    Giving your credit card to a clerk that earns a minimum wage is most likely more risky.

  41. banks should be liable by nguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When banks deploy inadequate security, they should be liable for the distress and costs they cause their customers.

  42. Your PIN is your password by kooky45 · · Score: 1

    Like a password, you should change your PIN regularly. If it's copied from a terminal then you're only vulnerable for a short time.

  43. Oh yeah, just watch the banks try to spin this one by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    I got bit by a scheme. They drained my account and then the bank didn't want to hear it. They're still chasing me for $1,300.

    Here in the U.S. we simply use either card alone, or card and PIN. About 8 months ago some enterprising fraudsters managed to replace the credit card terminals in Stop & Shop supermarkets. And of course one that I frequented got hit.

    The banks need to be taken to task for this. So too do agencies like APACS and their U.S. counterparts. I know that Stop & Shop replaced all their credit card terminals with what they say are more secure but I know they're hackable.

    The solution is to use something other than PIN, like a thumbprint. And encrypt the data stream between the card reader and the processor. But even at that, you still have the card data being transmitted in the clear from the read head on through.

  44. Online Florists for Same Day and Assured Delivery by shallugarg · · Score: 1

    Articles and content in this section of the website are really amazing. From http://www.rosesandgifts.com/

  45. This is not news by ajs318 · · Score: 1

    Chip and PIN has nothing to do with security.

    A PIN (a 4-digit number with a search space of 10 000) is much, much less secure than a signature (complex hand gesture with near-infinite search space). It takes even an experienced person at least an hour to learn to forge a signature convincingly. (The hard part is not giving yourself away with body language: you have to make the whole act of signing your name look like a casual, throwaway act, something you do all the time, not like you're auditioning before a panel of silent, stone-faced judges for a leading part in a West End production.) A PIN can be obtained under threat of violence in seconds. An accomplice can then verify the PIN in a nearby store, and use what was until very recently the victim's own phone to report the success or otherwise to the robber.

    The only reason why the number of fraudulent transactions is less on chip-and-PIN systems, is because every transaction is assumed legitimate by default -- unlike signature-backed systems, where a human being intervenes to judge the legitimacy of every transaction.

    Chip-and-PIN has a couple of purposes. Most obviously, to transfer liability from banks and merchants to cardholders -- but that's just a fringe benefit. The real, long-term purpose is to acclimatise people to the concept of inserting a card into a reader and keying in a number. Soon, you won't have a separate bank card for each account; they'll all be accessible via your Biometric National Identity card, which will also open the doors to your workplace -- and eventually, your home.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    1. Re:This is not news by crimperman · · Score: 1

      Chip and PIN has nothing to do with security.

      A PIN (a 4-digit number with a search space of 10 000) is much, much less secure than a signature (complex hand gesture with near-infinite search space).

      Whilst the PIN is the weak point in the system (or to be more exact the human is), one would imagine the chip is more secure than the magnetic strip. Taking the example posted elsewhere on here, a card with a chip is less susceptible to a skimming reader which sits on top of the card slot. This being because the chip is not read as it passes through but once it reaches it's destination. If that is interrupted the transaction fails - unlike with a skimmer.

      That said the PIN is undoubtedly the weak point. I have often stood in a queue at the supermarket and from fifteen feet away clearly seen the PIN someone is entering. In fact I once observed this with someone I knew and caught them up in the street and told them their PIN number just to demonstrate how easy it is. People are also just too casual with the cards. I always try to insert the card into the reader myself, never give it to the sales assistant and refuse to allow them to insert it into their till while I punch the number into the card reader. I tend to frustrate the assistant who try to press the Enter button to accept the price before handing it to me to enter the pin. The reason for that part is so I can tell if they are charging me what they just said they would!

      The whole point of C&P is that the card side of the transaction should not involve the retailer other than knowing if the transaction was successful.
    2. Re:This is not news by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Whilst the PIN is the weak point in the system (or to be more exact the human is), one would imagine the chip is more secure than the magnetic strip.
      Which is more secure:
      1. Putting a £1 padlock on a tent?
      2. Putting a £50 padlock on a tent?
      It hardly matters whether the data on the card is held in a magstripe (which is easy to clone) or a chip (which is hard to clone right now, but just wait .....) when it's so easy to get hold of the PIN. You don't even need to clone the card, or have a dodgy reader -- if you know the PIN, all you need to do is lift the card and pass it through a real reader before the victim notifies the authorities. A HITW machine might be a bit dangerous, but most supermarkets and main post offices will give you cash with a chip-and-PIN card. They're busy places, and staff are highly unlikely to notice that the person presenting the card is not the person named upon the card. And the transaction is not dodgy, because the correct PIN was used. If you can return the card, you can even pull this scam more than once per victim.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    3. Re:This is not news by assassinator42 · · Score: 1

      How often are signatures checked? I've made quite a few purchases without signing the back of my card. Also, I've often run out of space while signing and had to jumble the last few letters of my name together (it seems many signature spaces aren't designed to fit 19 characters).

  46. And this really makes things more scary how? by Mechanik · · Score: 1

    So, ok... you could use this to compromise a real machine, collecting the numbers but still allowing the transactions to go through, but it's not like you were safe yesterday and suddenly vulnerable today.

    Criminals have already been setting up fake card readers on ATMs and Pay At The Pump machines here in Canada. Your card physically goes through their reader before it gets to the real reader on the machine, then a hidden camera records you punching in your pin. Later the criminals retrieve the data from the magnetic stripes and retrieve the video, and combining the two they empty your bank account at various ATMs.

    Criminals have also setup completely fake ATMs (effectively trojan horses) which just record your card's magnetic stripe and the PIN you type in, and then pretend to phone home to the bank for the transaction, when really they just blindly dump out some seed cash that the criminals have stocked the machine with in order to make the transaction seem legit (they will make it back theoretically in the funds they drain from you afterwards). Or hell, if they are feeling particularly greedy, they can just blink up "transaction failed, network down" or something and not even give you the seed money.

    The point is, this doesn't change a lot. Theoretically any machine might be a fake, or might be compromised. There's nothing stopping someone from taking the guts out of one of the machines in the article and replacing those guts with their own custom hardware that just pretends to fail the transaction while it records your stripe and PIN. Granted, it's easier to get away with putting a compromised machine into a legitimate business without the collusion of the proprietor if the machine actually carries out the transactions, otherwise the mook at the till is going to report to management that the machine is broken and the company will send a repairman with a new machine to replace your compromised one. But in a small mom and pop business where the proprietors are colluding with (or themselves are) criminals, the scam is easily run, and since there is no real transaction going to the banks (remember the transaction "failed" as far as the customer knows), there isn't even any data to mine to determine that all these people shopped at Shady Underworld Convenience.

    With every transaction you make, you are taking some form of risk. It might be a low risk, or even a calculated one, but it's still a risk. You have no way of knowing what is going on in that machine when you swipe your card and enter your PIN. Period. All you can do if you are going to use debit/credit is try to use machines that are less likely to be fake compromised, and you should still audit your transactions often so that if you do become a victim of theft/fraud, you can catch it as soon as possible.

  47. Agreed... by Junta · · Score: 1

    Thanks for the correction, that makes a lot more sense.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  48. Demonitization is not prohibited by davidwr · · Score: 1

    It just isn't done routinely. In some wars, it was done with wartime scrip and even certain wartime bank notes that were "legal tender" only in certain parts of the world.

    Having said that, demonetizing all currencies with designs that haven't been used in 20 years, with a guaranteed face-value buyback from a Federal Reserve Bank by any US Citizen willing to declare that he's either had the currency a long time or declare where he got it would put a dent in the problem you mention.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  49. One card, please by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    and since people tend to have several cards

    With the system you describe there's no need for several cards - just install the certs for the new bank/store/insurance-co/etc on your card.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  50. Ummm... Here's A Solution by EdIII · · Score: 1

    DON'T USE PINS. EVER.

    I have never agreed with the Debit system, or any other system that uses pin code information. It is, pardon my language, bullshit.

    The Debit card system, in the US at least, was the worst. The banks were initially not liable for anything, and whole accounts could be drained. The charges were insane too. No offense, but anybody who pays a 50c-1.50$ charge on their Debit Card to by a farking hamburger is mentally challenged, and their thought processes must be very similar to the people spending their paychecks on worthless bling bling.

    My primary reason for disagreeing with the system, is that the banks are trying to weasel out of any responsibility.

    I don't know about many other banks, but Wells Fargo had put in pin pads into their branches for customers to identify themselves. Huh? This is the certainly the most retarded idea which is in line with the "screw the customer" paradigm that is rampant today. I have watched customer after customer after customer walk up to the teller and identify themselves to a teller, and the teller does not even look them in the face . Any criminal could get my bank card, which doubles as an ATM/Debit card, and use the SAME FUCKING PIN CODE . Once again, pardon my language please. Since the code is exactly the same, they just walk up to the teller and they could perform practically any type of transaction without any additional identity checks. This is not an exaggeration either, I have watched hundreds of dollars getting withdrawn, and cashiers checks being handed out, based only on that pin code.

    You want to know the big kicker here? I REFUSE to identify myself in such a manner. WHEN I do actually refuse:

    1) The tellers invariably get "disoriented". They just look at me blankly like I yelled, "Tapioca Pudding IN my ShOES!! BWAHAH".
    2) Some tellers get put off.
    3) They all proceed to give the deep identity cavity search. I have to take out my drivers license, my bank card (obviously), sometimes another credit card, and then answer several questions about the account, which always includes at least 2 questions about recent deposits.

    I am not complaining about that, I just don't like making them do it. I actually say Thank You to any sales clerk that asks for my identification. Now this leads me to make an interesting observation. The bank equates a bank card and pin code to be as secure as step #3. Clearly it is not.

    I believe this all comes to down the banks trying to push as much liability, responsibility, accountability, etc. away from them and on to the consumer as they can. Pin Codes, remove the responsibility of the banks and the merchants to, at bare minimum, pay attention to the customer . They don't have to ask for ID for one thing. As assumption is made, that as long as the Pin Code checks out, that proper identity has been established.

    That is why I always sign the back of my credit cards with "ASK FOR ID". I never use debit cards, and I NEVER enter a pin code anywhere but at a branch ATM. My Pin Code is also not 4 numbers. If you ask them at Wells Fargo, they will allow you to set a longer Pin Code. I complained bitterly about the Debit System being attached to the same system as my Bank card, and that Pin Codes were not secure. After a lot of frustration, and being clear that I was not going to shut up and leave, the branch manager informed me about the longer pin codes. So definitely ask your bank or credit card company if you can set pin codes longer then 4 digits.

    In the end never accept that the banks are interested in security. I don't believe that they are. They are interested in making the transactions as easy as possible for themselves and the merchants with as much ability to blame the customer as possible.

    The other benefit of never using Pin Codes, is that it presents a very c