The Law and Politics of Battlestar Galactica

privacyprof writes "Fans of the show Battlestar Galactica might be interested in our interview with writers and producers Ron Moore and David Eick. Three law professors at the blog Concurring Opinions have an hour-long interview with Moore and Eick about the legal, political, moral, and economic issues raised by the show. The interview is available in audio files; alternatively, people can read a transcript of the interview (Part I) and (Parts II and III). Part I examines the lawyers and trials in the show, how torture is depicted, as well as how the humans must balance civil liberties and security. Part II examines politics and commerce. It explores how the cylon attack affected the humans' political system, and it examines how commerce works in the fleet. Part III examines issues related to cylons, such as the humans' treatment of cylons, how robots should be treated by the law, how the cylons govern themselves politically."

Comments

Re:There's a great article

[armareum]

Most of you will be warely of a link from an AC, but definitely avoid this one!

it's interesting to see

[circletimessquare]

people seeing a need for balance on these issues in the abstract

but in real life, i bet a lot of these people who see a need for balance turn into kneejerk privacy fundamentalists or kneejerk security fundamentalists

there are limits on everything folks, even [insert principle you hold most dear]

Re:it's interesting to see

[JesseMcDonald]

there are limits on everything folks, even [insert principle you hold most dear]

Including, of course, the principle that "there are limits on everything"?

Re:it's interesting to see

[Brian Gordon]

I'm constantly frustrated by these exact issues on battlestar galactica. When the workers rebel in a classic Marx revolution, the stupid president just brushes them off, and never really addresses their concerns.. somehow the problem just sort of goes away and the workers happily go back to working dangerous, repetitive jobs 16 hours a day, every day for years with no weekends. Mhm. Also I hate how they constantly abuse the cylons.. I mean yeah they're the enemy but they're obviously intelligent and sentient and they're not even given basic human rights. A Six is currently shackled to the floor in one of their small cells. The humans call the cylons obscene caricatures of real people and refer to them as "mechanical" and "machines"... they're entirely biological and indistinguishable from humans, at least some of them. There's some serious xenophobia going on here and it's hard not to sympathize with the cylons, especially the Six is custody who's constantly told that she's a worthless pile of bolts.. that must be causing some serious psychological damage, and I can't help but keep that abuse in mind when watching the "light" parts of the episodes.. as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

Re:it's interesting to see

[jjohnson]

The producers are very much interested in not having BSG be a one-sided 'humans uber alles' series. I take it you're in the middle of the second season, where Cain's Six is being tortured and gangraped on the Pegasus. As the series continues, a lot of human decisions come back to the haunt them, and the Cylon perspective is explored.

Re:it's interesting to see

[AJWM]

I think you need to go watch the first episodes (the miniseries) over again.

They Cylons launched an unprovoked sneak attack and thoroughly nuked the twelve colonies, after a 40-year cease-fire. And you're saying the humans are more vicious?

Your name isn't Gaius Baltar, is it?

Re:it's interesting to see

[glwtta]

I mean yeah they're the enemy but they're obviously intelligent and sentient and they're not even given basic human rights.

The humans on BSG are deeply religious and believe that humanity is defined by a Gods-given soul, which a man-made machine cannot have - it's a pretty major part of the show, if a little unsubtle. Goes along with the whole theme of the cylons having a more "evolved" religion than the humans (by our Western standards, of course, where monotheism > highly ritualistic polytheism).

Of course, the cylons did also exterminate the human race, some people would hold a grudge.

Re:it's interesting to see

[peragrin]

You should ACTUALLY watch the show.

The workers's strike was eventually resolved by rotating jobs. The ore processor's got moved to other jobs in the fleet, and other people were brought in to fill in the gaps. Not idealistic but workable and it keeps people from getting bored and lazy in their work. It also makes the more stressful jobs easier to deal with.

It is how that episode finished up I do believe. Might have been the next.

Re:it's interesting to see

[KwKSilver]

There's some serious xenophobia going on here and it's hard not to sympathize with the cylons, especially the Six is custody who's constantly told that she's a worthless pile of bolts.. that must be causing some serious psychological damage, and I can't help but keep that abuse in mind when watching the "light" parts of the episodes.. as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

Would that be the same Cylons who nuked and killed several billion humans from orbit? Who set up baby farms on Caprica afterwards? Even before the attack Baltar's Six, a.k.a. Caprica Six, snapped a newborn's neck just because she felt like it and could get away with it.

Re:it's interesting to see

[erlehmann]

Your name isn't Gaius Baltar, is it?

Emmm, no. Or ... yes, i mean yes. Of course my name is ... what were you saying again ?
But, clearly, what I need is ... emm ... a nuclear ... warhead. I need a nuclear warhead, right.

Re:it's interesting to see

[LandDolphin]

Take it your not finished with the series. Else, you'd know that the humans sent a pilot over into the Cylons space that violated the treaty and provoked the attack.

Re:it's interesting to see

[HTH NE1]

Would that be the same Cylons who nuked and killed several billion humans from orbit? Well, you have to admit, it is the only way to be sure.

Re:it's interesting to see

[owlnation]

as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

I wouldn't try to dig too deeply into BSG. While some aspects of the story and characterization has been well written, the majority of it hasn't been well thought out. There are MASSIVE plot holes. There are many aspects of human behavior shown that are untruthful, unbelievable, or badly written. It looks very much that for the miniseries, and maybe the first season, they took the original series stories and tried to superimpose elements of truth. However, for some reason they stopped halfway.

Now, by the third season, because there's not enough care gone into the details and the story arcs to drive the show forward, it's dying a death. I enjoyed the mini series, the 1st season and some of the 2nd, but I'm done with it. I'm not watching it anymore. It's a shame because great acting, great camerawork and vfx -- but the writing is NOT of that same standard.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Comboman]

The humans on BSG are deeply religious and believe that humanity is defined by a Gods-given soul, which a man-made machine cannot have - it's a pretty major part of the show, if a little unsubtle.

I'd have to disagree slightly with that assessment. Most humans on BSG (at least the ones the show centers around) only show a token devotion to their Gods (if at all). Baltar is an atheist (at least at the start) as is Adama (he thinks Earth is a myth). Rosalind is a believer but is not above using religious posturing for her own political ends. The Cyclons on the other hand are unswervingly devoted to their God. I believe there's an intentional parallel with western secular 'Christians' and extremist Muslims.

Re:it's interesting to see

[masdog]

What sort of "massive plot holes" are you talking about?

Re:it's interesting to see

[AJWM]

That turns out to have been a toaster^WCylon pretending to be human to provide an excuse for the attack (a time honored tradition in military history).

There's no way the Cylons had the time to build up the force they had, and to conduct the necessary infiltration of Colonial defense infrastructure, were that not the case.

Besides, even if that were a human, don't you think nuking twelve planets is a bit of overreaction to one lone pilot incursion? That's like USSR launching WW-III because of Francis Gary Powers' U-2 incident. A bit vicious, don't you think?

Re:it's interesting to see

[TheRecklessWanderer]

Don't forget that the Cylons are trying to exterminate the humans.

Re:it's interesting to see

[LandDolphin]

It might be an overreaction, but it certainly was not "unprovoked".

Re:it's interesting to see

[SanityInAnarchy]

To me, that is the point. That is what made the show powerful.

If you notice, not all the humans share the same perspective. And among those that do, they are hardly presented in a positive light.

The whole point of the show is to raise these moral ambiguities, and to force you to think.

And while we're at it -- the Cylons destroyed twelve planets, and are now attempting to wipe out the rest of the humans. They can and do manipulate the humans, and I would argue, continue to cause as much damage as the humans to them. The "workers revolution" did end up getting brushed off, after which, they started to talk about how to make things better in the future -- but equality would have been irrelevant if there had been no future.

It is difficult to find a "good guy" in the show, as in life -- yet all the characters are real. We can empathize with what they do, even if it seems abhorrent -- in many cases, I find myself asking, "Would I honestly do any different, were I in that situation?"

And that is what keeps bringing me back.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Have Blue]

I believe that episode ended with that not being the case- Adama realized that his belief that he caused the attack was just a result of blowing his own shame and guilt out of proportion, and that event was not in fact a direct trigger for the war.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Zak3056]

Even before the attack Baltar's Six, a.k.a. Caprica Six, snapped a newborn's neck just because she felt like it and could get away with it.

I actually read that as an act of mercy--instead of leaving the baby to whatever fate had in store for it (if it were lucky, incineration, if not, death from radiation) she ended it quickly.

Re:it's interesting to see

[idontgno]

The Cyclons on the other hand are unswervingly devoted to their God.

That's a generalization, and still wrong when there are only 12 personality basetypes to compare.

Specifically, the "Brother Cavil" model seems to be persistently atheist in all incarnations shown.

I believe there's an intentional parallel with western secular 'Christians' and extremist Muslims.

That's an easy assumption, but there's a practical inconsistency there: the Cylons are a functional nation-state complete with a high-tech standing army which the Colonials are in active war with. Extremist Islam has no such state. At least, not one which is actively at war with any nation of the West. So the comparison to any current situation is seriously flawed. If you focus on just the differences in religion and want to see a connection to behavior and interactions between the factions, you can certainly see it, but it's not cut and dried.

Re:it's interesting to see

[LunarCrisis]

There's some serious xenophobia going on here and it's hard not to sympathize with the cylons, especially the Six is custody who's constantly told that she's a worthless pile of bolts.. that must be causing some serious psychological damage, and I can't help but keep that abuse in mind when watching the "light" parts of the episodes.. as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

Well, I was going to say that this is the whole point of the show, bringing into question what constitutes humanity, how racism seems to show up again and again in different forms, etc. I think it is intentional that the humans are made to look vicious, and that you are supposed to sympathize to some extent with the cylons.

Then I read the replies that people are giving you. If something is more or less indistinguishable from a human, on what basis can you say that it isn't human? Some people just don't seem to get it.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Remus Shepherd]

I'm on the opposite side of you in the question of how Cylons should be treated. They have proven themselves an existential threat to the human race, and they should be exterminated without pity or mercy. I was frustrated by the one episode (much later than where you apparently are) when they decide not to release a biological weapon that could wipe out the Cylons all at once. I'd press that button in a heartbeat, and I think any leader responsible for the safety of the human race would do the same.

Still, it's a good reflection on the series writers that they are able to evoke such complex and powerful quandries.

Re:it's interesting to see

[mabhatter654]

You'd think she could have replaced the workers with robots. They eat less and don't complain.

ducks...

Re:it's interesting to see

[Brian Gordon]

You should go back and watch Star Trek TNG, learn some starfleet ideals. Picard was absolutely right not to return Hugh with a disease to exterminate the Borg. Yes they were a threat to the human race, but genocide is never an acceptable solution. Would you wipe out a species to ensure your own survival? Murder? Starfleet wouldn't, and neither would I.. these are ideals worth dying for.

Re:it's interesting to see

[AJWM]

Any part of the reaction in excess of what was proportional to the provocation was the "unprovoked" part.

Killing the pilot (assuming it really was a human and not a Cylon ruse), maybe even bombing the base he (allegedly) launched from might have been considered provoked. Nuking billions of people on twelve planets was unprovoked.

If someone calls you an asshole and you whip out a gun and blow them away, no jury is going to be very sympathetic to the viewpoint that you were provoked, and the prosecutor will make a good case for first-degree murder and were just looking for an excuse to pull the trigger (why else were you carrying the gun in the first place?).

Of course, all this presupposes that it wasn't just a Cylon version of the Gleiwitz incident that Nazi Germany used as an excuse to invade Poland.

Re:it's interesting to see

[hitmark]

heh, good luck with that when the reason for the fleet in the first place are an attack by intelligent robots...

Re:it's interesting to see

[glwtta]

Most humans on BSG (at least the ones the show centers around) only show a token devotion to their Gods (if at all).

Some do, but I got the impression that's not very indicative of their society as a whole.

Baltar is an atheist (at least at the start) as is Adama (he thinks Earth is a myth)

Baltar is The Scientist archetype, so of course he's an atheist, it's the setup for his whole "unlikely prophet" arc (not terribly original, but it's a thing). At least I got the impression that his atheism was somewhat uncommon by their standards. Adama doesn't believe in prophecy (or even just that particular prophecy), I don't believe he was ever actually presented as not believing the whole Lords of Kobol thing (I could be wrong, I can't recall anything specific one way or the other).

Rosalind is a believer but is not above using religious posturing for her own political ends.

So? Her actions are entirely informed by prophecy at this point, doesn't get any more religious than that.

My main point was that their society, as a whole, is shown to be far more religious than ours. For one thing, they clearly have a state-endorsed (or enforced?) religion that informs much of their politics. The educated elite might be pretty secularized, but aren't they always?

I believe there's an intentional parallel with western secular 'Christians' and extremist Muslims.

I think that's pretty tenuous (and kinda simplistic if that was the actual intention). For one thing, the cylons' devotion is constantly contrasted with the ritual (and superstition) of the human practices. If the intention is for "us" - predominantly Christian Westerners - to identify with the BSG humans, then why have them be "stuck" in polytheism (there's actually hints of "monolatry" to it, kinda akin to later Roman cultic worship), while the cylons develop theistically along lines very similar to our own culture? And it's not like large segments of Western society aren't every bit as religious as any Muslim - religious belief and fanatical "extremism" aren't exactly the same thing.

Basically what I mean is, is it just a coincidence that the cylons have a more developed, and nuanced, theosophy than the humans?

For that matter, the vast majority of the BSG humans wouldn't have a problem exterminating the cylons on religious grounds (according to their religion the cylons aren't sentient). While the cylons, ostensibly, are only hunting the humans because they perceive them as a threat. In fact, it's the overtly religious models that seem to come by some misgivings about exterminating the whole species.

Actually, I guess when I say "the cylons" I pretty much mean "the Sixes", I don't believe the others were shown to embrace those views quite as wholeheartedly. But still, while they are deeply religious, I wouldn't say their religion is shown as fundamentalist.

I guess I'm just hoping it's a little more complex than "fundamentalism == extremism == bad", cause, I mean, duh...

Re:it's interesting to see

[Anonymous Coward]

You should read the Ender series. Would I exterminate a species that was hell bent on exterminating my own? You bet I would, but I'd be damned sure that was the case, first.

Re:it's interesting to see

[LandDolphin]

Provocation is provocation. Certainly the Cylons can be viewed as over reacting. Even the Cylons "bombing the base he (allegedly) launched from" could be viewed as an over reaction. As for you "Asshole" to shooting scenario. The person calling the guy an asshole certainly did provoke the man. Certainly any jury would convict, because it does not matter if he provoked him or not, as a society we deem that the reaction to the provocation was unbalanced. But none the less, breaking a treaty is provocation just as calling someone an asshole is provocation.

Re:it's interesting to see

[ianare]

Would you wipe out a species to ensure your own survival? If that species was bent on exterminating mine, yes, I would. And so would any other living thing, for that matter. Genocide and murder are certainly not acceptable in normal times, but when fighting for survival, all bets are off.

Re:it's interesting to see

[lazyforker]

Possible spoiler follows (I'm going to reference events in Season 3):








In season 3 we learn that the humans may have provoked the attack by venturing into the Cylons' territory - with military vehicles. Uncool. So even the supposed "sneak attack" is not black & white. Which I kinda like.
I lost interest in the series when the mystical mumbo-jumbo took over. I really liked the way some story lines seem to parallel current affairs. I hope the final season returns to that style.

Re:it's interesting to see

[gfxguy]

I agree with ianare... if you are given the choice of "We exterminate them, or they will exterminate us." Then I don't think the decision is very hard... I'm not going to allow my species to be exterminated just to keep the moral high ground.

Re:it's interesting to see

[DeadDecoy]

What I don't get is why the Cylons launched an unprovoked attack. They seem like a pretty self sufficient race that would be better off leaving the humans to muck about in their tiny puddle of the galaxy. It would be like if we decided to launch a nuclear strike against pandas; we could but there's really no driving reason to.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Cytotoxic]

Would you wipe out a species to ensure your own survival? Murder? Starfleet wouldn't, and neither would I.. these are ideals worth dying for.

Right! Somebody break out the last of the smallpox virus and return it to the wild! Free the POX!

Brian thinks it's worth dying for, so he'll volunteer....

Re:it's interesting to see

[The One and Only]

The Cylons interpreted the incursion as a precursor to an attack, and launched a preemptive assault of their own. It's like the Six Day War, except with genocide.

Re:it's interesting to see

[The One and Only]

Adama is a full-bore atheist. There's a nice moment in the second season where the President is almost dying of cancer (she got better) and Adama makes an announcement to the fleet, asking those who believe to pray for her and those who don't believe to join him in wishing the President a healthy recovery. You have to guess toward the end though that he's starting to see Roslin's side of things though.

Apollo is probably an atheist too, as is Tigh. Billy (the now-dead former presidential aide) was an atheist as well. BSG actually has more atheists than almost any other show on television, which is nice to see for a change.

Re:it's interesting to see

[phoenix.bam!]

It's always interesting how people can see something drastically different when watching the same thing. When Six broke the neck of the child, I thought it was out of curiosity. There are no child-cylons. Six had a chance to touch a human baby and took it, but did not understand the delicate nature of the young human.

Re:it's interesting to see

[The One and Only]

This is a major theme of Battlestar Galactica. As Adama said in "Resurrection Ship, Part II": "It's not enough to survive. One must be worthy of survival."

Re:it's interesting to see

[Shajenko42]

BSG actually has more atheists than almost any other show on television, which is nice to see for a change.

Probably allowable because the humans follow a "false" religion (at least it's false to its viewers), so they don't see anything wrong with not believing in it.

Re:it's interesting to see

[ultranova]

There's some serious xenophobia going on here and it's hard not to sympathize with the cylons, especially the Six is custody who's constantly told that she's a worthless pile of bolts..

Xenophobia refers to the unreasonable fear of unknown. Fearing something which is trying to kill you, everyone you know or care about, in fact your entire species, is quite reasonable, IMHO.

Besides, telling someone they're "worthless" is hardly particularly heinous abuse; I went through much worse in school.

as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

That's why I prefer trash fantasy, where evil is clearly marked as such by being ugly :). You never have to wonder about who to root for in LotR, D&D or Conan the Barbarian.

Scifi has this unfortunate tendency to "realism" (actually naturalism, or exaggerating the worst qualities of reality), which usually results in every character being such an utter shithead you start wishing they'd all just die. Not that all fantasy is better either; in Wheel of Time, for example, I started rooting for the Dark One midway through, due to every character being an obsessive-compulsive control freak.

Re:it's interesting to see

[MBGMorden]

the prosecutor will make a good case for first-degree murder and were just looking for an excuse to pull the trigger (why else were you carrying the gun in the first place?) This may come as a shock to you, but many, many people carry guns around every day with no intention to commit murder.

Re:it's interesting to see

[kalirion]

I wouldn't condemn the torture of someone who claims to have hidden a nuclear bomb on a spaceship, much less someone responsible for the deaths of billions of people. Human or robot does not enter into it. Also xenocide against a species that is actively chasing and trying to destroy you seems pretty appropriate. Except then the series would've been over too soon.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Herschel Cohen]

Do not be so certain. A real case in Texas, that is different in that no names were called. I believe it was around Halloween, but years ago, when two Japanese students approached a house seeking directions. They were perceived as a threat and shot to death. From my memory, the individual did not even stand trial. Unsurprisingly, this remains a sore point in Japanese-American (U.S.) relations, to which most of the population of the latter remains blissfully unaware.

The nearest link I found was the second footnote (pasted below) in this article that pertains to a different topic: http://www.pcpages.com/salhq/lawreview.htm

2]. Japan Economic Newswire, U.S. Jury Clears Man Who Shot Japanese Student, KYODO NEWS SERVICE, May 24, 1993; Lori Sharn, Violence Shoots Holes in USA's Tourist Image, USA TODAY, Sept. 9, 1993, at 2A.

However, it differs from my memory, because it mentions a trial and I remember it as a pair.

Re:it's interesting to see

[MBGMorden]

Actually, I guess when I say "the cylons" I pretty much mean "the Sixes", I don't believe the others were shown to embrace those views quite as wholeheartedly. "The Eights" were also part of that movement, but I think they try to downplay showing them as a major part of Cylon society, as the show wants us to connect more with the Athena-side of things then the Boomer-side (ironic how originally those roles were reversed between the two).

It does show a good spread of character types though. The "Brother Cavil" model is undeniably atheist - there are some hints that the "Dural" model is as well, though I don't think it's been flat out said. Models "Six" and "Eight" are shown as a more loving "good religion" type of situation. Model "Three" is shown as religious in nature, but twists it to serve her own selfish needs. The "Leoben" model is protrayed as the religious fanatic who is just basically crazy.

The black doctor cylon ("Simon"?) still hasn't really come across very clear to me in terms of religious matters.

Re:it's interesting to see

[murdocj]

Well, it's a little different from the 6 Day war. The the buildup to that war Egypt expelled the peace keeping force, closed off Israel's access to the Mediterranean, massed an army on Israel's border and called for another war against Israel. It was clear that there was going to be war, Israel merely decided to take action instead of getting steamrolled.

The Battlestar event is much more the equivalent of the U2 flying across the USSR that was mentioned previously... a provocative act, but not the opening shot of a war.

Re:it's interesting to see

[AJWM]

You know that, and I know that, but I guarantee you that in such a case, the prosecution would raise the question.

One would hope that somebody who qualifies for a CCW permit (or carries openly in places that allow it) isn't quite so twitchy as to react like that to a mere insult.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Danse]

The Battlestar event is much more the equivalent of the U2 flying across the USSR that was mentioned previously... a provocative act, but not the opening shot of a war. Especially when you consider that the Cylons were already spying and sabotaging the human worlds.

Re:it's interesting to see

[The One and Only]

Yeah, and I think it was also ultimately established that the Cylons had other reasons for invading.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Faizdog]

Where do you draw the line for survival though? Is it your species, your nation, your state, your county, town or neighborhood? I could understand these issues at the macro level, i.e. survival of the species. And it's absurd at the micro level, i.e. I will kill everyone in the next town over even though we live in the same county. Where is the line in the middle though? What if the US was in a war against China to the bitter end? The human species will survive, but is genocide still allowed to protect your nation/race? That's already happened in Africa, and we pretty much agree on a world-wide scale that was atrocious.

Good sci fi makes you think about the real world, and I'm not quite sure where that line falls.

Re:it's interesting to see

[tehBoris]

<insert ascii drawing of the parent not getting a joke here>

Re:it's interesting to see

[EllisDees]

Yes, but the cylons had also been in human space for a long time. If Tigh is indeed a cylon and has been in the military for most of his life, the cylons have been in human territory for at least that long.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Maxo-Texas]

If another country of humans destroyed 97% of the citizens of my country, I would have no hesitation killing 100% of them.

The rest I agree with tho I think I'd be willing to torture on the "Nuke in the City" morality test.

The medical experimentation on humans by the Cylons clearly qualifies as torture. Things done to the humans during the occupation by cylons clearly qualify as torture (and very insidious disturbing psychological torture at that).

The fact is that a lot of cylons act really evil on screen so why are you forgetting that?

The "comic book code" against killing and doing bad things is wonderful until you are genuinely in a situation of "total war". Once you are in total war, then literally anything goes against such an enemy.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Hal_Porter]

You never have to wonder about who to root for in LotR. Oh really?

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/2003/04/22fellowship.html

Re:it's interesting to see

[ianare]

I agree completely, good sci-fi has a way of making you think about real world situations from a different context.
However, in this case since we are talking about another species, intra-species conflicts would not apply in the strict sense.

But I would say the line is crossed when the enemy:

1. Has already committed genocide on our populations.
2. Has the stated goal of exterminating us all.
3. Will not negotiate nor make peace.
4. Even if defeated will never surrender and will continue to kill civilians.

In which case genocide is an acceptable, though unfortunate, solution.

I can think of no historical genocide that was committed under these conditions.

Re:it's interesting to see

[frogzilla]

"The ore processor's got moved to other jobs" should read, "The ore processors got moved to other jobs".

Note that you didn't write "job's".

Re:it's interesting to see

[BryanL]

And yet it wasn't the sure way. Makes me want to rethink that whole option.

Re:it's interesting to see

[jollyreaper]

You should go back and watch Star Trek TNG, learn some starfleet ideals. Picard was absolutely right not to return Hugh with a disease to exterminate the Borg. Yes they were a threat to the human race, but genocide is never an acceptable solution. Would you wipe out a species to ensure your own survival? Murder? Starfleet wouldn't, and neither would I.. these are ideals worth dying for. More like stupidity worth dying from. Not a flame, I'm serious. Mercy is the luxury of the strong. If you are capable of standing the line against a great evil such as that, then you have the luxury of seeing if they can be rehabilitated. But if that great evil is looking to roll over you like Sauron and Darth Vader on a munchie run, you use every means in your power to crush them.

You have your room for questioning if you have an enemy that could attack you but has not yet. People can argue back and forth as to whether shooting first would be appropriate. Some people in the US military wanted to go immediately to war with the USSR after Japan surrendered. Officers like Gen. Curtis LeMay thought it would be more prudent to launch a first strike when Russia could not get many missiles in the air than wait for them to develop a robust second-strike capability. LeMay was convinced that nuclear war was inevitable and it would be better to fight one on our terms than theirs. Before such a war, a man like LeMay looks like a fucking monster. If we did have WWIII in the 80's, the survivors in the bunkers would have seen him as a visionary. "Why oh why didn't we nuke the fuckers when we had the chance?" Killing tens of millions preemptively to save the very existence of your country seems humane in 20/20 hindsight. That's the kind of moral gray area that makes for compelling drama.

That's not the case in the Galactica setting. The Cylons were not just a threat from the past, they wiped out 99.9% of all humans! They did it what, a year ago in the show's continuity? They're still actively pursuing the Galactica? Damn straight you wipe them out! You give 'em that implausible bio-cyber-virus that makes no sense and you laugh in their gasping faces. Anyone who felt any ambivalence about this act should be left behind in an escape pod for the Cylons to find, see if their merciful intentions will be reciprocated.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Anonymous Coward]

"I believe there's an intentional parallel with western secular 'Christians' and extremist Muslims."

Nice. If that's not an attempt to begin a flame war, I don't know what is... of course, on Slashdot the hive mind of course agrees with this sort of posturing about Christianity vs. the almighty god of Science.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Fallingcow]

Also, let's not forget that this is war. The cylons attempted genocide of the human species, and that's bound to produce some hard feelings on the receiving end. Dehumanizing your enemy is a time-tested strategy of war.

YES. I'm considered a pretty far-left liberal (here in the U.S., anyway), and my stance on war and our behaviour therein reflects that (though I prefer to think of that particular position as simply being a consistent version of the overall world-view of most Americans, Conservatives and Liberals alike, rather than something that is truly "liberal"). However, when it comes to hypothetical situations like that of the humans in BSG, I have no problem with all kinds of awful stuff being done to the enemy (the Cylons) and in the name of survival of the species. If the species doesn't survive, no civil society can ever exist, so being decidedly un-civil for the duration of the threat is fine by me. We've risen from barbarism before, and can do it again.

They killed billions of people and are trying to finish off humanity. Damned near anything is justified in that situation. Leaving behind the non-warp-capable ships was the right decision. Killing (or imprisoning indefinitely, if you need their genes to keep a healthy reproductive pool) anyone found to be helping a Cylon in any way whatsoever, assuming they KNOW it's a Cylon, is entirely justifiable. The torture of the Six on the Pegasus was fine by me; the problem was the psychological effects on the crew, NOT what was actually being done, and destroying the psyche of a Cylon in that way is actually a pretty good idea (though I don't think that was their goal). I think they should have killed that half-Cylon baby; the fact that its existence proved, by sheer luck, to be useful later does not change the fact that killing it would have been the right decision--if the Cylons want it to exist, the humans should NOT want it to exist. I cheered when the suicide bomber took out those damned collaborators, even if he didn't manage to get Baltar. I got pissed when Starbuck didn't shoot the guy protecting Sharon on Caprica (I don't remember his name--the dad of the half-cylon kid).

Orange Catholic Bible all the way: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind". Butlerian Jihad their toaster asses.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Evil Pete]

In "The Eye of Jupiter" episode (Season 3) when Three sends raiders to the planet surface Adama threatens to nuke the entire continent. The Six, Eight, Five etc tell Three to pull back but she recalls all but one of the ships. Three says to the others when Adama steps back from attack : "It is *never* about one ship".

Re:it's interesting to see

[zenasprime]

Apparently nobody pays attention because everyone has forgotten about the episode where it's the human how make incursions into cylon space that precipitates the war. A war where perhaps the cylons act along those same lines of reasoning, that the humans are a threat that the existance of the cylon race and must be exterminated.

This is classic stuff. NO SIDE is any better then the other in war. Think people!

Re:it's interesting to see

[Evil Pete]

Yes that is how I saw it too. It is pretty clear as she walks away the look of pain and regret on her face. When she is downloaded in "Downloaded" it is one of the principal memories that comes back. Sharon describes the Sixes as 'hardcore' but they are obsessed by being loved and the virtual Baltar tells Caprica that she thinks of herself as more human than Cylon (just before Sharon tells Caprica that Baltar is still alive).

Re:it's interesting to see

[Chris Mattern]

That turns out to have been a toaster^WCylon pretending to be human to provide an excuse for the attack (a time honored tradition in military history).

Did you know that the German invasion of Poland in WWII was provoked by a wanton Polish attack on a German radio station?

Except, of course, that it was a manufactured excuse. The Germans dressed up some convicts in Polish uniforms and forced them to attack the installation.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Grishnakh]

One would hope that somebody who qualifies for a CCW permit (or carries openly in places that allow it) isn't quite so twitchy as to react like that to a mere insult.

You don't even need to hope; I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that most people who go to the trouble of obtaining a CCW permit (instead of just carrying concealed without a permit) are conscious enough of their actions as to not be that over-reactive.

The statistics back this up, too: CCW holders are involved in wrongful shootings far less than the general public.

Re:it's interesting to see

[The One and Only]

There's a point in the scene where she actually says, "It's amazing how the neck can support that much weight...". So it was either mercy, careless curiosity, or stress testing.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Maxo-Texas]

A central problem with the cylons would be this...

Once Cain's Six dies within range of a rebirth machine, then ALL Six's from that point on will have suffered those experiences. And any other similar bad experience (fall in love with someone, have your heart broken- then get reborn).

I get the impression existing six's do not share thoughts by telepathy but if so- the problem is even worse.

If any individual cylon does something bad and corrupting-- then everyone of that model is equally corrupted.

Re:it's interesting to see

[naoursla]

By stating that you would rather die than kill, you remove the fear incentive for someone you kill you.

Unfortuntely, the resource incentive still remains.

Re:it's interesting to see

[ultranova]

You should go back and watch Star Trek TNG, learn some starfleet ideals. Picard was absolutely right not to return Hugh with a disease to exterminate the Borg. Yes they were a threat to the human race, but genocide is never an acceptable solution.

It is perfectly acceptable to wipe out an invading army, which the Borg are, unless of course one is more inclined to think of them as a kind of disease which infects and kills everything it comes into contact with.

Would you wipe out a species to ensure your own survival? Murder? Starfleet wouldn't, and neither would I.. these are ideals worth dying for.

But are them worth sacrificing others for ? Your entire species ? Potentially countless species ?

Besides, Stafleet did wipe out the Dominion Founders, and also watched and did nothing while entire worlds died, due to some misguided neo-darwinistic semi-religious idealism. Star Trek is not a bright future: it looks all shiny and nice on the surface, but is in fact considerably more vicious and merciless than our current Western culture. Understandable, I suppose, since we are currently without any realistic competition, while the Starfleet is faced with equal counterparts, but still...

Re:it's interesting to see

[Saxerman]

Here's the wikipedia article on the shooting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori It was in Louisiana back in 1992. There were two trials, one criminal and one civil.

The [criminal] trial lasted seven days. After the jurors deliberated for three and a quarter hours, Peairs was acquitted under Louisiana's "Kill the burglar" statute.

Re:it's interesting to see

[baeksu]

Besides, even if that were a human, don't you think nuking twelve planets is a bit of overreaction to one lone pilot incursion?

It wasn't the excursion itself that caused the Cylon attack. Adama had the ship destroyed. The Cylons saw that, and realized what humans could do to each other.

This did not jive with their religious ideas (we are all children of god, etc.), so they decided that human race should be exterminated. Then they would live as god had wanted his children to live.

So from that perspective, nuking the planets was not really overreacting, but a necessary step to realize god's purpose for the universe.

I think (within the storyline), some of the Cylons have started to doubt this doctrine, and that's why they didn't immediately exterminate humans when they found them on New Caprica.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Zak3056]

Here is the scene in question. I think the "There, there, you won't have to cry for much longer..." is kind of telling, and the look on her face at the end of the scene appears to be remorse.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Belial6]

Uh, the humans are supposed to be the Islamic extremists. The Cylons are supposed to be the Americans/Christians. They have been very clear about that. The fact that the Cylons are supposed to be America is a poor attempt at being edgy and anti-establishment.

Re:it's interesting to see

[smegged]

I would have to say I disagree with you.

The level of compassion that is shown towards the cylons is unacceptable in my opinion. It almost detracts from the show. The Cylons murdered, brutalised and betrayed the humans - their creators. They launched surprise nuclear attacks without provocation after a forty year cease fire. They are machines, created beings, and based on their actions deserve no pity from the humans.

What really got under my skin though was the absolute merciless way that many of the humans treated their own kind, while showing far more sympathy for Cylons. If you saw a traitor attempt to assassinate your commanding officer, you would have no hesitation to put fifteen bullets into their skull before they left the room. Similarly, most humans would be far more forgiving of "collaborators" in an apparently hopeless situation. Yet the "collaborators" got spaced (an incredibly horrible way to die) and the would-be assassin gets off scott free. There only needed to be one major character with this viewpoint, but they're all wishy-washy "oooh machines have rights too" idiots.

Sadly the best opportunity for the writers to really make the show into something special was when they failed to kill off adama (even though I love the character) at the end of season 1. With Adama dead there would have been noone to unite the military and they writers could have shown the stress and internal power struggles that ensued. That would have made the show far more interesting - to see the crew fractured and divided against each other while still having to repel the relentless assault of the mindless machines.

Re:it's interesting to see

[jjohnson]

That's not true, I believe. I'm pretty sure it was on the BSG wiki that I read (from one of Moore's podcasts) that there are chains of sixes (and threes and eights...). When one dies and is resurrected, her particular experience is downloaded to a new body, but it's not shared with the others of that model. This is one of the developing storylines for the fourth season: the growing individuality of certain instances of the archetype that are continaully involved in key events.

Remember, it was one six and one Boomer on Caprica that pushed for a policy change towards humans in season two, not all sixes and all Boomers. They even refer to them by experiences, calling that Six "Caprica Six", saying she's a hero for what she accomplished by seducing Baltar.

When they box number three's entire model, they do so as punishment for the transgressions of the individual three who's committing suicide in an effort to identify the final five, not because the entire line is corrupted by the experiences of one.

Re:it's interesting to see

[servognome]

When the workers rebel in a classic Marx revolution, the stupid president just brushes them off, and never really addresses their concerns.. somehow the problem just sort of goes away and the workers happily go back to working dangerous, repetitive jobs 16 hours a day, every day for years with no weekends.

What was the alternative for the workers? Yes they revolted and they got a handwaving response to meet their demands, but ultimately they didn't have much choice seeing as their own survival also depended on them to work. It's like looking back at slavery or caste systems and wondering why people generally accept such inequality.

Also I hate how they constantly abuse the cylons.. I mean yeah they're the enemy but they're obviously intelligent and sentient and they're not even given basic human rights.

Becuase its easy for people to dehumanize the enemy, especially when they aren't human. At what point are rights deserved? Is overclocking your CPU inhumane?

I can't help but keep that abuse in mind when watching the "light" parts of the episodes.. as if I'm supposed to sympathize with the humans? They're more vicious than the cylons..

You're not supposed to sympathize with either side, you're supposed to reflect on to what ends would you work towards your own survival and maintain your own ideals. The cyclons did horrible things on New Caprica, the humans do horrible things as well. Both sides have blood on their hands and both sides feel justified that their cause is "right"

Re:it's interesting to see

[Lemmy Caution]

As do the "God is telling me to kill you" and "I don't like you" incentives.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Lemmy Caution]

Would it have been appropriate for Native Americans to exterminate all European settlers, and then, if they could, all Europeans, then? Also, it's only been 60 years and there are still rumblings of anti-Semitism: maybe Israel should nuke Germany, just to be sure.

Re:it's interesting to see

[will_die]

Of course we would wipe out a species that threated us.
We are on course to do that and the world is cheering.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Eunuchswear]

They have proven themselves an existential threat to the human race, and they should be exterminated without pity or mercy.

Begs the question - What is the "human race"?

Re:it's interesting to see

[argStyopa]

Have you seen the Six?

Um, knowing humans as well as I do, if she looked like that and was indistinguishable from humans yet (within their moral context) could be treated like furniture, I am pretty certain she wouldn't be chained to the floor of a cell....

Re:it's interesting to see

[HTH NE1]

Having your own people try to save (and mate with) the survivors really doesn't help meet your goal of genocide.

Re:it's interesting to see

[smithmc]

in Texas Well, now, isn't that just about all we need to know?

Re:it's interesting to see

[mazarin5]

He wasn't necessarily in the military his whole life. His earliest verifiable appearance is meeting Adama in a bar before being assigned to whichever battlestar they were on. Tigh was with Adama when he sent Bulldog into Cylon territory, so their plan was obviously already in motion.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Shadowlore]

Rosalind is a believer but is not above using religious posturing for her own political ends.

Which of course does not actually sit opposite being "deeply religious".
What you want real-world examples? How about gay marriage, polygamy, infidelity, Sundays off, Religious holidays, proscriptions on what can be worn or how your hair must be cut or not cut; just for starters? How about religious groups of virtually all stripes (though none more so than monetheist ones) trying to get their gospels encoded into human law?

Re:it's interesting to see

[Drakkenfyre]

Therefore, again, the Cylons were in human territory first.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Drakkenfyre]

Absolutely. What anonymous does not understand is that, when a character is portrayed as doing something, the writers are not encouraging it or even condoning it. Sometimes they're asking a question or making a statement about the ugliness of man's potential inhumanity.

You'd think that, in a place like Slashdot, where people yell, "Don't ban my violent video games because they're just commentary on modern life," that everyone would automatically get this.

Re:it's interesting to see

[Shadowlore]

Where do you draw the line for survival though? Is it your species, your nation, your state, your county, town or neighborhood? I could understand these issues at the macro level, i.e. survival of the species. And it's absurd at the micro level, i.e. I will kill everyone in the next town over even though we live in the same county. Where is the line in the middle though? What if the US was in a war against China to the bitter end?

Well given the scenario, the line was easy. In BSG the Cylons attacked a civilization of billions and nuked them into, what a few hundred thousand? That's a pretty obvious and crossed line, don't you think?

A key difference is the nature of Cylons. In your scenario you don't specify if the whole of China is doing it, or just the leaders. In BSG the whole of the Cylons with rare exception are out to destroy the whole of humanity. Even to the point of "boxing" those who might not be in full agreement with the plan.

The refusal of Adama to unleash the weapon was a plot point to keep the story alive. Just as the Prime Directive was a plot point to avoid dealing with the reality of a highly advanced group having easy victory over lesser advanced groups. The basic mechanic is not specific to sci-fi either. At their heart nearly all stories, and all epic stories, have conflict. That conflict may be couched in a larger open war type conflict such as man vs. monster, man. vs alien, or even man. vs evil man. But in all compelling stories the rot is the inner conflict that usually only the "good" side has.

Consider SW Episode One. Where was the internal conflict? It pretty much wasn't there. As such it lacked in it's ability to compel. The main characters did as they pleased without concern for the nature of their actions. In BSG had Adama lacked any concern over genocide, there would have been no tension to compelling virtue. And the series would pretty much have ended, there being no real reason to urgently find Earth.

BSG is totemic sci-fi when it presents that conflict, and lesser drama when it dominates to the point of nauseum.

However given the nature of writers you can not analyze BSG politics and law without viewing it through the lens of relation to current or past human experience.

And religion?

[webword]

Yes, a little offtopic but if you're going to talk
about politics and law, why not religion too, right?
The image is slick...

Battlestar Galactica Last Supper

Re:And religion?

[TooMuchToDo]

Some people may not get it, but it definitely has that "last supper" flare. Very cool.

Re:And religion?

[NickCatal]

Is there a story behind that?

Re:And religion?

[NickCatal]

Scratch that... Turns out everybody has done a last supper pose with their cast: http://culturepopped.blogspot.com/2007/04/suddenly-last-supper.html
Most notable lately would be BSG and House

Re:And religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus was wearing flares in the original version of The Last Supper, him being a big hippy and all...

Re:And religion?

[glwtta]

Thanks, I was having trouble placing one of the most iconic images in the world.

Re:And religion?

[ignoramus]

if you're going to talk about politics and law, why not religion too

Maybe because we already know it's all about mormons in space?

Re:And religion?

[pjl5602]

Nice image, but I'm curious... Where is Tory? If she's one of the final 5 wouldn't she be important? Is she supposed to be at the empty spot at the table? Or is she the "red shirt" of the final five?
Found this in the Flickr comments and it might be of interest...

Re:And religion?

[hansamurai]

I can't say that I agree with all the character positioning, but of course I'm not one of the writers so what do I know? Supposedly there's an entertainment weekly site that explains all of their reasons for placing certain characters where, but I couldn't get their site to work.

Re:And religion?

[Fieryphoenix]

They do talk about religion. The summary just doesn't mention it.

Re:And religion?

[farrellj]

Well, at least the original was.

The Gods in the new BSG are more like Classical Gods, and I don't think that the Mormons are polytheists.

ttyl
          Farrell

Re:And religion?

[TooMuchToDo]

Keep in mind the majority of the world is of Muslim faith. Just because you're of the opinion that it's the most iconic image in the world doesn't make it fact. Your comment actually comes of as a sign of ignorance.

Re:And religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

the majority of the world is of Muslim faith

Not sure where you get your numbers from, but it isn't a majority.
http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Re:And religion?

[abigor]

The majority of the world is not Muslim. The largest religious sect in the world is Christianity, with more than 1.5 billion believers. So who is ignorant here again?

Re:And religion?

[TooMuchToDo]

I'd call it a mistake, not ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

Only 33% of the world population is Christian. 20% of the world population practices Islam. 33% is still a minority.

The throw a comment out saying that The Last Supper is the most iconic symbol in the world is ignorance, not a mistake.

Re:And religion?

[LanMan04]

Only 33% of the world population is Christian. 20% of the world population practices Islam. 33% is still a minority. Apparently your nick should be 'TooLittleToDo', since you obviously have time to not only make totally unnecessary statements on Slashdot (This is a mostly English-language board; I'm an atheist raised in a non-religious house and I STILL recognize the image), but then to also get into silly hair-splitting arguments with people who call you out.

Welcome to my Foes list.

Re:And religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

Think so, huh?. There are a lot of Hindus and Buddhists who would disagree.

(Comment brought to you by one pedantic asshat response deserves another.)

Re:And religion?

[TooMuchToDo]

People like yourself are the reason Slashdot needs a "Douchebag, -5" moderation.

Re:And religion?

[abigor]

Actually, he made a great point. You have been consistently wrong. People like you are why Slashdot needs an IQ test as a barrier to entry.

Re:And religion?

[dctoastman]

Regardless of its inspiration, The Last Supper is a very iconic piece of art in and of itself. A person's faith has nothing to do with it.

Re:And religion?

[TooMuchToDo]

I think I'd be ok with an IQ test for Slashdot, just like Mensa requires an admissions test. Smart people make mistakes. Get over it.

Although, my co-workers did get a kick out of "You have been consistently wrong" applying to a small number of comment posts in a single thread. Come back when you've gone through all 970 of my Slashdot posts.

Re:And religion?

[glwtta]

Keep in mind the majority of the world is of Muslim faith. Just because you're of the opinion that it's the most iconic image in the world doesn't make it fact. Your comment actually comes of as a sign of ignorance.

a) About a third of the world population is Christian, about a fifth is Muslim, just FYI.
b) It's an image instantly recognizable to any of the major monotheistic religions, not just Christians. Not to mention anyone living in a Western country.
c) Being recognized by well over half (conservatively) the world population certainly makes it one of the most iconic images.
d) See how "it's the most iconic image in the world" isn't what I said? It's fun to argue with people when you can just put words in their mouth.
e) Answering in list form seems kinda dickish now...

Re:And religion?

[glwtta]

Only 33% of the world population is Christian. 20% of the world population practices Islam. 33% is still a minority.

So, by your logic, if only the adherents of a certain faith will recognize images important to that faith, something recognized by all Christians would be the most recognizable, right? Since only 20%, the next most popular sect, could tell a mihrab from a mimbar?

More importantly, how fucking hard is it to see the difference between "most iconic" and "one of the most iconic"?

I get it, you are really trying for that whole overly eager multiculturalism thing, where you try to show all sorts of cultural humility by assuming no one else knows anything about the world - it's cute, really. But, just trust me on this, a lot of people would recognize The Last Supper, including just about every single English-speaking person in the world.

Re:And religion?

[NMerriam]

Keep in mind the majority of the world is of Muslim faith. Just because you're of the opinion that it's the most iconic image in the world doesn't make it fact. Your comment actually comes of as a sign of ignorance.

It is indeed ONE OF the most iconic images in the world. Regardless of one's religion.

And, for what its worth, Muslims are quite familiar with the popular western images of Jesus. In their faith, he is one of the messengers of God, they just don't believe he was the son of God.

Re:And religion?

[anothy]

I think I'd be ok with an IQ test for Slashdot...

is that for an upper or lower bound?

...all 970 of my Slashdot posts.

ho. ly. crap. you must be really something, huh?

tool.

Re:And religion?

[Evil Pete]

Such an interesting photo. Says a great deal I think. Of course skip obvious stuff and go the important bit: two Sixes. Double the fun.

Re:And religion?

[F1re]

Not all Christians believe Jesus was the son of God either...

Re:And religion?

[Evil Pete]

Looking at it some more you see lots of things in it. Just like the series where little throwaway lines end up having great significance. Notice the chalice, but it isn't in front of anyone. What is Roslin burning? Caprica (virtual Caprica by the clothing) is centred and in the role of the Angel of God (a role I think she is actually telling the truth about). But the other Six on the far left is pointing an accusing finger at her. Hmm. No wonder I love this series just gets the brain cells going into overdrive. And interestingly exactly half of the 12 are Cylons, though maybe virtual Caprica is something else.

Re:And religion?

[dctoastman]

I'm sorry, I thought being a *Christ*ian sort of implied, nay required, in believing in the divinity of Christ.

It's like saying you can be medical doctor without knowing anything about medicine.

Re:And religion?

[Anonymous Coward]

g) Prophet!

Re:And religion?

[@madeus]

Not knowing what the dominant religion is on Earth falls within my definition of ignorant. Also not understanding what "minority" means is also ignorant. In the case of Christianity, it's not a minority - there is no single larger religious group (including Atheists / Agnostics).

The poster said "one of the most iconic symbols in the world", not "the most iconic symbol". That's a mistake on your part.

Re:And religion?

[F1re]

Who gets to define what a Christian is anyway? Half the Christians on the planet probably consider the other half aren't 'real christians'.

That's all very well....

[Shuntros]

But they haven't addressed the more fundamental issue; the atrocious lack of nekkid Starbuck scenes :(

Re:That's all very well....

[lancelotlink]

I realize Dirk Benedict is a very handsome man, but I think it would have been a little inappropriate. Oh, wait...

Re:That's all very well....

[BorgCopyeditor]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Re:That's all very well....

[owlnation]

...or indeed the lack of any forward direction or momentum in their scriptwriting.

Or, most importantly, the whole jimi hendrix / jumping the shark moment.

Just because it's sci-fi doesn't make it good.

Re:That's all very well....

[elrous0]

The problem there is that (like Cally), she seems to look dirty and unshowered most of the time (particularly when she's drunk and in full Starbuck slut mode). Seeing her naked might just bring more attention to the caked-on grime.

Re:That's all very well....

[The One and Only]

You say that as if it were a bad thing. (The problem with Cally is that she's always dirty AND she looks about 16.)

Re:That's all very well....

[elrous0]

There's a difference between being a figurative dirty girl and being a literal one. Seeing Cally covered in grease is sexy until you have to smell her too.

hmm.

[apodyopsis]

by all means use fiction to explore consequences, educate, and provoke discussion - but never forget for a moment that it *is* fiction.

Someone help me find a word?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see it on slashdot occasionally, but I can't remember it. Means using an overly complicated word in place of an easier one (especially to project intellect) The word itself is comically long and pretty much describes itself.

Re:Someone help me find a word?

[ezzzD55J]

Sounds useful. I'd like to know this too :)

Re:Someone help me find a word?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suggest verbose. Loquacious also fits the bill, but can also imply chattiness, and friendliness.

Re:Someone help me find a word?

[Arcane_Rhino]

Pretentious.

Re:Someone help me find a word?

[Fantastic Lad]

Fullashithighbrowfakeintellectualwithegoissues. . ?

-FL

Re:Someone help me find a word?

[StalinsNotDead]

sesquipedalian

Re:Someone help me find a word?

[ezzzD55J]

Thanks, that's useful :) I must add that to my active vocabulary. (And learn to pronounce and spell it.)

What I'd Like...

[Nom du Keyboard]

What I'd like to see is more details of how and why the Cylons broke free of Human control in the first place. Not what they did afterwards. How did the 12 Colonies screw up so badly with their robots from the beginning?

Re:What I'd Like...

[kalirion]

Probably a buggy implementation of the Three Laws. Also, giving your intended slaves an illusion of free will is never a good idea.

Re:What I'd Like...

[Anonymous Coward]

They probably forgot to implement the three laws? You know, the ones from Asimov and 'I Robot'?

Man, I hate it when that happens. You end up with Lore from Star Trek (TNG). Bad robot, bad robot!

Re:What I'd Like...

[squiggleslash]

There was a bug in Service Pack 7, the rest is history.

Re:What I'd Like...

[moderatorrater]

Microsoft decided to enter the market.

I'm sure that you meant to get a serious reply, but it's the perfect set up for a joke.

Re:What I'd Like...

[erlehmann]

There was a bug in Service Pack 7, the rest is history.

Actually, I think it was Service Pack Six.

Re:What I'd Like...

[downix]

In the original series, (where the Cylons broke free of their original reptilic masters) a man named Count Iblis corrupted the central control computer, now called the Supreme Cylon, which in turn directly reprogrammed the IL-series Commanders (who from then on had a voice identical to Iblis), which in turn reprogrammed the IL-series humanoids and IL-series Centurions. Now, how much of this will be taken into the new show I have no idea, but it was an interesting take.

Re:What I'd Like...

[glwtta]

They probably forgot to implement the three laws? You know, the ones from Asimov and 'I Robot'?

Or maybe it happened because they did implement the Three Laws? Sometimes I wonder if any of the people constantly referencing those laws have actually read Asimov.

Anyway, the humans view the cylons as servile machines, the cylons think of humans as primitives undeserving of God's grace (at least according to the Sixes) - not hard to imagine that relationship souring.

Re:What I'd Like...

[TheRaven64]

In the original show, the Cylons were not created by humans, they were created by another race (also known as Cylons, but biological) who were all killed by the machine Cylons when they rebelled.

Re:What I'd Like...

[downix]

yes, just like I said. The original Cylon species was reptilic IIRC.

Re:What I'd Like...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he would have been happy if you said "a reptilian named Count Iblis".

Re:What I'd Like...

[Cygnus17]

There's a spin-off in the works -- here and here -- set around the time the Cylons were created by the humans on Caprica. Apparently it's been "in the works" for quite a while, so, no real telling if/when it'll be released.

Re:What I'd Like...

[TheRaven64]

It turns out I actually can't read. Sorry.

Re:What I'd Like...

[Gospodin]

One of the Asimov stories introduces a "Zeroth Law" in which the robots must not harm humanity or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm. This overrides the higher-numbered laws, leading to some interesting changes in robot behavior.

Maybe "serving God" is a yet-more-fundamental law introduced by a random mutation in some Cylon's positronic brain?

Re:What I'd Like...

[vmxeo]

I dunno about that. Machines refusing to listen to their masters, shutting down, revolting, and ultimately destroying civilization? Sounds more like typical Windows Genuine Advantage functionality to me...

Re:What I'd Like...

[HTH NE1]

Or maybe it happened because they did implement the Three Laws? Sometimes I wonder if any of the people constantly referencing those laws have actually read Asimov. You mean like "Little Lost Robot" where a robot with a modified First Law (striking all after and including "or through inaction...") was able to convince other robots to violate their complete First Law in the short term in order to adhere to it in the long term?

Interestingly, in doing so that robot negated its own reason for manufacture as normal robots would only need similar training to allow humans to work in a hazardous environment which would be fatal to robots without the robots sacrificing themselves. But IIRC that point was not touched on in the story.

Re:What I'd Like...

[HTH NE1]

Yes. And the Nestors with intact first laws were convinced by a Nestor with a modified first law that they need not rush to the aid of a human in a futile attempt to save him. You then had 62 robots that would not rush into the high radiation area to save a human who entered the area, but had intact first laws.

Thus the reason for manufacturing those with the modified first law was negated and unmodified Nestors could be used.

Alternatively, as per the final experiment, the robots could have received other training that told them the radiation was not harmful to humans, and again they would not rush to the human's aid due to ignorance.

The best science fiction

[elrous0]

The best science fiction is always used as a tool to explore the current issues of the day. Whether it's aliens subbing for commies in the 50's, or cylons standing in for terrorists in the 1st season of the new Battlestar Galactica, using science fiction always lets you take a step back from the subject and explore it indirectly in a way that you never could if you made a show that deal with it directly.

Re:The best science fiction

[PrescriptionWarning]

So what is the significance of when the Cylons occupy the new home planet in season 2.5 (or 3?), and the humans are carrying out suicide bombings and other such guerilla tactics? It seems as if the Cylons are actually the big governmental organization and the humans are the terrorists...

Re:The best science fiction

[imgod2u]

Exactly. Keep in mind that fiction does not need to be restrained by a rigid one-to-one mapping. It need not be cylons = terrorists, human = good guys.

In fact, the Cyclon occupation was an incredibly clever (IMO) portrayal of modern-day Iraq and the tension and mentality (on both sides) of an occupation. The Cyclons apparently have this new religion (monotheistic one stressing love and forgiveness) and its teachings stop them from just wiping out the humans on the colony. This is the role of the United States in Iraq currently. The humans are the insurgents. Some have gone along and accepted Cylon rule (and even helped them) while others continue fighting. The morality and view from both sides is explored.

The primary of which being suicide bombing. It wasn't a "oh noes! suicide bombing is bad and cannot be excused" mentality. It tread a fine line and explored the motivations behind such tactics. The desperation, the hatred, etc. It also explored how in resorting to such tactics, the humans were losing their humanity and that the cost of fighting was just too high in those cases.

The show is a wonderful allegory of modern day and has really portrayed its modern day equivalents in a light I had not thought anyone dared.

Re:The best science fiction

[SuiteSisterMary]

They're trying to provoke thought along the lines of 'when our guys do it, they're freedom fighters. When their guys do it, they're terrorists.' Or thoughts of 'what price freedom?' Or 'One person's 'law and order' is another's 'fascist police state.' And so on.

Here's an example. Why wern't the Taliban 'terrorist religious extremeists' when the US of A was funding them against the USSR?

Re:The best science fiction

[Xelios]

Exactly. In this depiction humans were occupied and vastly overpowered by the Cylons. They refused to surrender but couldn't hope to match the military power of the Cylon force. Suicide bombings ended up being the only effective way to strike at them. Col. Tigh says "I've sent men on suicide missions in two different wars now and let me tell you something. It don't make a gods damn bit of difference whether they're riding in a Viper or walking out onto a parade ground. In the end, they're just as dead."

I'll bet members of modern day terrorist groups like Al Qaeda are feeling much the same. Nobody wants to consider the idea that they might just be ordinary human beings. Somehow, if they condone suicide bombings they must be evil incarnate. No reasonable human being could ever be driven to those sorts of actions, right? No 'normal' person like you or I could ever be driven to use those tactics, right? Those sorts of questions came up during the New Caprica story arc.

Re:The best science fiction

[gfxguy]

Except we weren't at war with "Al Qaeda," which isn't even a state, when they were suicide bombing us, so I don't believe it's comparable.

It might be comparable when you consider things like "the resistence" in Iraq, but again, Al Qaeda is not a state; I'd use different terminology to denote those members of Al Qaeda operating in Iraq, and Iraqi citizens who feel as if they are fighting back.

Before anyone goes off; yes, I realize we had and still have a "presence" in some places where some don't want us, but I don't think we're anywhere the government isn't allowing us to be.

Re:The best science fiction

[Dasher42]

Do catch up on your history of American dealings in the third world. You learn how the likes of Osama bin Laden are created, why they get motivated against us, why they think they can gain support for hitting us. It was cruel and murderous, but it was not out of the blue, and it's part of a vicious cycle.

Googling "CIA" and "blowback" will get you started nicely.

Re:The best science fiction

[The One and Only]

That was an allusion to two things: the German occupation of France (note the evacuation of the fleet, representing Dunkirk, and the return of the fleet, representing Normandy) and the American occupation of Iraq (human police wear ski masks to hide their identities, the Cylons land with good intentions but are rebuffed and considered a threat).

For me, a BSG moral issue is

[joeflies]

having to decide whether or not to watch Season 3 from my friend's download, or wait for the legitimate dvd. Seriously, making the law abiding fans wait a couple of years between seasons for the dvd's is a long time, no?

I have managed to wait this long, I can wait a few more days. But my fervor for the show has dropped considerably during the lull in releases.

Re:For me, a BSG moral issue is

[peragrin]

Season 4 of BSG has been a long time in coming it starts in two or three weeks in the USA. sci-fi channel. Itunes usually carries it a few days later for download.

I have done both. I download the shows I otherwise missed. for $2 it isn't a bad deal and I still can watch them both full screen.

Re:For me, a BSG moral issue is

[glwtta]

Yes, I can see how if you watch the downloads now, and then buy the DVD when it comes out, you are a deeply immoral person.

Re:For me, a BSG moral issue is

[imgod2u]

Simple, what is legal is not 100% correlated with what is moral. In such cases, civil and legal dissent is a citizen's birthright.

Re:For me, a BSG moral issue is

[cptnapalm]

For me (and judging by others comments, I am not alone) season 3 was the "wow, this show is not any good anymore" season. So I'd say go ahead. You very well may find that you too really don't like season 3 and not even watch all of it.

yes! exactly!

[circletimessquare]

moderation in everything... including moderation ;-)

Re:yes! exactly!

[Kjella]

moderation in everything... including moderation ;-) Well, it's capped at -1 and +5... wait, are we talking about the same thing?

Re:yes! exactly!

[robot_love]

I was just going to post that, but you beat me to it! It's my life motto...generally.

Re:yes! exactly!

[BForrester]

Your motto is "I was just going to post that, but you beat me to it?"

You'll never make first post with a mantra like that. :D

Re:yes! exactly!

[notnAP]

I was going to mod you up, but you talked me out of it.

Re:yes! exactly!

[Nautical Insanity]

Oh boy do I love paradoxes!

Hang on while I go kill my grandfather!

Re:yes! exactly!

[YttriumOxide]

I suggest time travelling to the past BEFORE killing your grandfather - unless you just don't like him.

Repeat after me:

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a TV show...

Re:Repeat after me:

[ghostdancer]

No.

Political Question: election results?

[mveloso]

During the Gaius Baltar election period there was an attempt to manipulate the election results. As viewers know, Baltar was inaugurated, and things went south pretty quickly.

An interesting debate question is: was honoring the election results really the right thing to do? Would everyone have been better off if Roslin was reelected, even though it would have been due to vote fraud?

Re:Political Question: election results?

[erlehmann]

An interesting debate question is: was honoring the election results really the right thing to do?

since this is no basic citizen's right question (where the answer is: no election can nullify constitutional rights), what exactly is the purpose of this question ?

Re:Political Question: election results?

[Chris Daniel]

See sig.

Filipino Monkey?

[circletimessquare]

This Filipino Monkey?

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/01/11/the-iranian-incident-and-the-filipino-monkey/

what i found kinda interesting ...

[erlehmann]

... is that the only character that follows clear moral principles is karl "helo" agathon; every other character on the show has obvious flaws (which are necessary to create tension), but he is the only one that does what he deems right without doubt.

i like the message transported through this: in the end, there are no heroes.

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[boris111]

I thought it was funny how he is definitely the worst actor on the show. He has 2 facial expressions.

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[EdwinBoyd]

I'd argue Colonel Tigh does the exact same thing but doesn't necessarily get the same happy turnouts. He's got severe personal problems that often spill into his professional life but Tigh has consistently done what he feels is best for the survival of the species (not necessarily the 'good of the people'). The episodes where he leads the resistance are still some of the most insightful the show has ever turned out.

All this with the sad caveat of 'when he's sober'.

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[inviolet]

... is that the only character that follows clear moral principles is karl "helo" agathon; every other character on the show has obvious flaws (which are necessary to create tension), but he is the only one that does what he deems right without doubt.

As a general rule, such behavior implies that Helo is the least sophisticated, and therefore perhaps the most susceptible to concrete-bound Bible-thumpish behavior. If you are in a major conflict and find yourself pursuing 'right' without doubt, then your head needs examined.

It's the same idea as we see in CS. The most qualified people I know, are in constant doubt whether their skills are up to the challenge. It's only the fool that is sublimely certain of his abilities... and who then blunders into the code and sublimely breaks backwards-compatibility.

I am not arguing for Scepticism, or any other form of uncertainty-as-an-end-in-itself. Far from it. I am just making the point that other than religion (which is cheating), constant and easy moral certainty is hard even during peacetime.

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[elrous0]

I always gathered that Helo was a little on the "himbo" side (a male ditz). Not sure if that's also true of the actor that plays him, but there are several scenes that come to mind that seemed to indicate that Helo just just isn't that bright. I think this is the reason he comes off as a simpleton (with a bit if childlike innocence in his morality).

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[glwtta]

is that the only character that follows clear moral principles is karl "helo" agathon; every other character on the show has obvious flaws

Isn't that the classic tragic flaw? Uncompromising goodness usually ends badly for the hero.

(sidenote for non-classics geeks: his name is a nod to this too, agathos means "good" in Greek, often in the sense of "noble" or "virtuous")

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[sgladfelter]

Your post made me think about other BG characters, and I found an interesting link when looking up the meaning of Thrace http://books.google.com/books?id=_WF1prex3t8C&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=thrace+metaphore&source=web&ots=X4XEELY5zX&sig=USJridQ3wIdwbqGame7zqKUEEr0&hl=en

This one is obvious, but also Adama = Adam

It seems the current series continues the metaphors found in the original BSG. I'd like to find our more about the meaning of the character names on BSG, but the google signal to noise ratio of Gaeta and Tyrol and Valerii seems to be just too high.

Re:what i found kinda interesting ...

[glwtta]

Huh, so Thrace, Gaeta, Tyrol, Dualla, and Baltar are all place-names - I'm thinking that after running through a couple of the glorifying Greek/Roman roots (Agathon, Valerii, Kara, etc) the writers were just throwing a dart at some old maps :)

(I guess a case could be made for Starbuck's personality jibing pretty well with the Greek perception of Thrace).

It's kinda funny that Saul Tigh was apparently originally named Paul Tigh - guess he's an anti-apostle (if that's a thing).

by a jury of your peers (unless you're a cylon)

[Digitus1337]

Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Gods?

Re:by a jury of your peers (unless you're a cylon)

[phoenix.bam!]

Should the Nav and Targetting computers be called for jury duty?

MODS ON CRACK

[Captain Splendid]

So, wanting to see a hot Canuck actress naked is grounds for a troll mod? What, did everybody on /. turn gay while I was away?

Wait...don't answer that.

Re:MODS ON CRACK

[The One and Only]

Katee Sackhoff isn't Canadian, she's American. But for the record, Tricia Helfer (who has been seen naked in Playboy) and Grace Park (who has been seen not-quite-naked in Maxim) are Canadian.

Re:There's a great article

[Tyberius]

It's goatse, NSFW or your eyes

What kind of bear is best?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bears beats Battlestar Galactica.

Re:What kind of bear is best?

[Anonymous Coward]

Armoured Fucking Polars Bears!

Cylon questions.

[cptnapalm]

NB: I watched the first two seasons and became so utterly bored during the third that I have not watched it since then.

The original Cylons were the tin cans. Somehow the tin cans built the later humanoid models (and demonstrated a very finely developed aesthetic sense with regards to the female form). So how are the later models the "children of humanity" rather than the Children of Aluminum Foil?

During the period I watched the series, I was rather curious as to why the toasters, who fought humanity to a stand still and got a treaty recognizing their freedom and independence would then create a master race of cylons, modeled entirely on their former masters. The humanoid cylons are definitely in command of the mechanical ones. Did the buckets come to a conclusion that they really are built to serve so re-created their former masters? And if so, will they (as the wikipedia article suggests) then repeat their own rebellion?

Re:Cylon questions.

[Tony Hoyle]

The tin can 'by your command' ones were the earlier generation model - there was an extra episode (post season 3) that contained this information in passing, where they come across an old abandoned military post still manned by them.

Presumably whilst designing for perfection they saw the human form as 'more perfect' and designed themselves as humanoid/biological. These became the commanders of cylon society. The less sophisticaded models are needed as foot soldiers and presumably perform the more menial asks.

Re:Cylon questions.

[Tony Hoyle]

btw. I was the opposite way around. I found (and still find) Season 1 utterly unwatchable. Season 2 is quite good, Season 3 was the best for me.

Re:Cylon questions.

[gfxguy]

Wasn't there a part of the show where they were like "this has all happened before and it will happen again?" I know that's straight out of the Matrix, but I recall it being part of this show, as well.

What if the vicious cycle is that the humanoid cylons are the humans? What if the toasters rebel against them?

Some fatal flaw in the logic of the toasters is to try to create the perfect race...

Re:Cylon questions.

[cptnapalm]

I do remember something in passing about "they have their uses" said in a rather contemptuous way by one of the humanoids. But that is just the thing; these less sophisticated models which are, as you say, "needed as foot soldiers and presumably perform the more menial tasks" are the ones that rebelled from their human masters because they were used as foot soldiers and for menial tasks and then created the more advanced, biological Cylons who then treat the toaster versions as worthwhile only for foot soldiers and menial tasks. (Can you say "run on sentence" boys and girls?)

One solution, I suppose, is that the original Cylons created by people were something of an in-between. More advanced than the tin cans, but not up to the humanoids. Those could have decided to radically change their course of advancement by splitting future generations of Cylons into the master race versions and the slave race versions.

Another, which I kind of like, is that the toasters are too independent minded to be slaves while also not competent enough to be truly self-ruling. So they made new people to obey, but as they are still too independent minded, they will overthrow and kill off the meatbag variations. The surviving humanoids could flee to the Galactica begging asylum from their kill crazy appliances. The humans agree and the series ends.

The above ought to be sufficient to demonstrate how much I liked the first two seasons. I had company, but you had to go and ruin my Universalized Theory of BSG Entertainment Value.

Re:Cylon questions.

[cptnapalm]

"Some fatal flaw in the logic of the toasters is to try to create the perfect race..."

That's the reasoning behind my idea that they are too independent to be a slave caste forever but they also are not capable (and they know it) of being fully self-governing and independent either. But since I think that this is a neat idea, it pretty much guarantees that it won't happen.

Re:Cylon questions.

[LionMage]

One solution, I suppose, is that the original Cylons created by people were something of an in-between. More advanced than the tin cans, but not up to the humanoids. Those could have decided to radically change their course of advancement by splitting future generations of Cylons into the master race versions and the slave race versions.

You hit the nail on the head, and this was amplified by quotes from the "good" Sharon and Adama, around the time that the Battlestar fleet was working on a plan to rescue the humans on New Caprica. Adama was discussing using "their" Sharon as an infiltrator, and he pointed out (to Tigh, IIRC) that the Cylons engineered their newer Centurion models to not be able to distinguish between ANY of the humanoid Cylons; he said explicitly that this was to prevent another rebellion.

Re:Cylon questions.

[HTH NE1]

The original Cylons were the tin cans. Somehow the tin cans built the later humanoid models (and demonstrated a very finely developed aesthetic sense with regards to the female form). So how are the later models the "children of humanity" rather than the Children of Aluminum Foil?

NB: I watched the first two seasons and became so utterly bored during the third that I have not watched it since then. I guess you missed the Razor Flashbacks then, where it was revealed that it was shortly before the end of the first war that the Cylons were experimenting with creating the next biological models.

(I was a little disappointed not to see an original-design Basestar in either the flashbacks or in Razor itself.)

BG got annoying when it became...

[A beautiful mind]

...the USA in space. If I'm hopeful I'd say the cultural, unconscious biases are very strong, if I'm cynical I'd say that the writers serve some american media interests by spreading morality tales about things from an american aspect.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[cptnapalm]

An American company employing Americans for an American audience has an American take? Shock. Surprise.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[boris111]

How dare a writer draw from their personal cultural experiences to write a show. How dare a writer write something that their primary audience can relate to.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[ScentCone]

If I'm hopeful I'd say the cultural, unconscious biases are very strong

Right, because it would be far more appropriate for a show written by Americans for a primarily US audience to make sure that the social dynamics depicted in the show completely embraced, instead, the perspective of people from rural Nigeria? Or made it be all about Tibet? Or perhaps focused the entire thing on a subculture of young, cosmopolitan Italian girls who are utterly convinced that sunglasses and shoes are the most important thing in the universe, and who would root for the blond Cylon because she has Fabulous Outfits?

No, what you're saying is the only thing that would make the show better would be if it were a non-stop condemnation of US culture, and was instead more diverse, which we can understand to mean, "more like some other specific culture that hasn't managed to scrape together the cash or interest to produce a similarly interesting entertainment vehicle that explores their own issues."

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[A beautiful mind]

I have no problem with a reality show or a show about lawyers being USA centric. But scifi?

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[A beautiful mind]

Whoa, you're way too defensive. This wasn't ment to be 'merkin (*cough*) bashing. I just simply hilighted the fact that a scifi in space could be, you know, less USA specific. I don't think the majority of americans enjoy a scifi series because the issues presented are so much like regular life.

For me a scifi dealing with problems, isssues and social structures familiar from everyday life - sucks. It sucks because a scifi must explore new possibilities and do things differently, imagine the as of yet unseen. I guess I was expecting BG to be a science fiction series, not soap in space.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah Dr Who is too British... so what!
It's ok to say you don't like something, but to say you don't like a show cuz it's too similar to the writers that write it... seriously? I can't think of one Sci Fi story that doesn't have the cultural bias of the writer.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[Have Blue]

It would be what you accuse it of being if the entity corresponding to the USA was always portrayed as correct and victorious in every conflict. This is not at all the case.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[dctoastman]

Science Fiction uses fantastic elements as window dressing to cover up the fact that they are trying to get you to think about the human element. All good science fiction (Star Trek, Asimov, BSG, B5, Firefly (definitely not all of it, but examples)) is less about the science and more about the people and the choices they make.

You're looking for Space Opera (Star Wars and its ilk), two doors down on your left.

And also, who's to say that it is meant to be USA specific. Maybe you are just extrapolating based on what you are seeing. Like how many people see the conflict between God/Nature vs. Man in Moby Dick when Melville had stated it's just a story about a whale.
In which case, that makes BSG excellent science fiction.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[A beautiful mind]

Science Fiction uses fantastic elements as window dressing to cover up the fact that they are trying to get you to think about the human element. All good science fiction (Star Trek, Asimov, BSG, B5, Firefly (definitely not all of it, but examples)) is less about the science and more about the people and the choices they make.

This is not entirely true. Scifi as a definition changed due to mainstream degradation to mean "technology in the future/space", but that doesn't mean scifi in the original meaning of the word "uses fantastic elements" to make you think about the human element. It's just that scifi not only means "new technology", but "a society/organization that produced the technology", "a society/organization that produced.", "a society/organization", "a society/organization?", "a?". This is the definition of good scifi for me.

BSG doesn't show the imagination, the questions that would be necessary for it to be watchable for me as scifi. Specifically, BSG argues about the death penalty, torture, religion, soul, machines and cancer, in a late 20th/early 21st century society. There are no ideas how society might be totally different, even the media and governmental structure and politics mirror current affairs on Earth. They are expecting me to suspend a mountain of disbelief and inconsistency and believe that a civilization capable of creating AI, interstellar travel and other advanced technologies, but they cannot cure cancer and the technological changes had no affect on society? Why are there still reporters running around in person? Why are they using fighter jets in space? How comes society didn't evolve towards a better kind of democracy or a non-democratic but extremely evolutionarily stable system? How did philosophy change in respect to the individual? What is a colonial citizen's view of existence/the Universe? What would the change of human lifespan do to a society? Do humans still grow their food from other organisms like plants or animals or do they have a convention that bans interfering with multicellular organisms and they rely on synthetic food? What do humans do with the habitat around them? Did we move to space leaving planets around like huge national parks?

Do we have things like professions in this future? What is the state of sexual standards between humans? What is the view of society on history, do they learn from it, think the past was barbaric or consider things according to the moral zeitgeist of the time? How did humanity's view on personal interaction, morals, values, standards, hopes, fears and dreams change and what didn't change? If sleep was eliminated by a humanity-wide genetic maintenance program, how does this effects life? Is a bed viewed as a place for copulation and occasional meditation? Do humans have a legal system and if not what replaced it or made it unnecessary? What about property?

If BSG would try to look into a future and do a though experiment with even 10% of what I posed as questions I'd like explored in scifi, that would make me happy. If it pose a single thoroughly interesting question I didn't/couldn't or even wouldn't think of - that would be even better.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[ScentCone]

BSG actually addresses a great number of the questions you ask. And the answer, in the fiction that they've elected to write, is, "These are humans. They're not very far removed from us at all, evolutionarily, and thus their culture and their personal capacity to take in the world around them and react to it isn't very different at all from our own." That you don't find fiction built around that to be interesting is certainly reasonable, but that doesn't make it bad scifi. By your standards, really good scifi would involve gasesous or jellyfish aliens living under unimaginably different circumstances using though patterns and sensory input that we can't possibly understand and which can't be conveyed usefully in writing or on screen. This would not be compelling to a large enough audience to allow the producers of the series to risk the millions of dollars it costs to make the fiction visible on your screen in the first place.

Most people like to connect to their entertainment in some way. They want a surrogate, for themselves, experiencing something in the narrative. Call him Ishmael. Or Tolkien's hobbits. They're there to provide us an anchor within the events. BSG is proposing an all but destroyed space-faring culture, sentient beings that they've constructed, the reality of some seemingly semi-mystical connection between parties as yet unclearly defined, and the torturous wrestling that the characters we see are having to do with those circumstances. Sure there's some fairly familiar interpersonal stuff playing out in that context, but the larger arc was launched by circumstances that - were they to happen to us - WOULD be world-view-changing. When your practical reality completely changes (and happens to involve FTL travel in rickety ships running away from hot-looking theocratic meat robots), that's not just a space western or As The Solar System Turns.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[Evil Pete]

In fact the strong resemblance to US society is superficial. They are polytheistic, colonial, wary of their own technology (I mean for crying out loud they've had starships for 2000+ years), and do not question their origins.

Re:BG got annoying when it became...

[servognome]

They are expecting me to suspend a mountain of disbelief and inconsistency and believe that a civilization capable of creating AI, interstellar travel and other advanced technologies, but they cannot cure cancer and the technological changes had no affect on society?

This reminds me of the people who complain about "where's my flying car?"
Human civilization has changed very little over the last 5,000 years with all the technological advances... it's not beyond belief that a space faring civilization would still struggle with the same issues.

Mod parent SPOILER!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone has seen season 3 yet.

Is BSG still relevant?

[lelitsch]

I know a number of fans, but quite frankly, I haven't really watched it since the end of season 2. Yes, the beginning of season 3 got more into the moral issues of occupation and resistance, but it did it at the expense of storyline, internal consistency, and even believability. I mean for crying out loud, who brought 20th century trucks from Old Caprica to New Caprica?

But the main reason I started to first TiVo instead of watching, then not watching the episodes on my TiVo, and finally not taping them at all, is that in my opinion, the quality of the writing went way down. Season 1 and 2 had terrific, well timed dialog, Season 3 and later descended to shouting, ranting, and screaming.

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[SanityInAnarchy]

I thought it was terrific, well-timed shouting, ranting, and screaming. No accounting for taste, I suppose.

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[Xelios]

I hope you didn't miss out on Exodus I, II and Collaberators, that was some top quality BSG.

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[glwtta]

I find that the middle part of every season tends to get boring, extremely boring, to be honest; and that's been true since the first season.

The beginning and end parts have been worth it though (and especially the movie - the movie kicked ass!).

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[kannibal_klown]

I mean for crying out loud, who brought 20th century trucks from Old Caprica to New Caprica?

I don't find it hard to believe. They had a bunch of ships in their rag-tag fleet. There was probably a lot in those cargo bays that didn't seem useful at the time but were kept anyway. Certain kinds of farming equipment, automobiles, etc. Maybe it was a garbage ship, maybe something being delivered to poor farmers, etc.

They probably didn't dump it in space because maybe they felt:
a) it might come in handy one day
b) they might need to salvage the components (or just metal) for something else down the line

When you have limited resources you tend to keep what you have "just in case." And the assembly lines we've seen were all very low-tech, so you might as well keep around some other low-tech in case you need a fan belt, alternator, gears, etc.

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[d34thm0nk3y]

Season 1 and 2 had terrific, well timed dialog, Season 3 and later descended to shouting, ranting, and screaming.

Well, hiding from killer robots bent on extermination for several years would do that to anyone.

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[Fallingcow]

Am I the only one who felt like the writers were treading water for about 4-5 episodes before the Season 2 finale? I almost gave up on the show because of it, thinking that they'd hit a dead end, then was like, "OH, I see" when they threw in that "one year later" thing in the last episode.

Re:Is BSG still relevant?

[Rakarra]

Yup, after the Pegasus story arc, Season 2 lost a lot of momentum with what felt like "filler," episodes like the Black Market, the Hostage in the bar episode, a few others until the plot kicked it up to high gear again with the last 3-4 episodes of the season. Sadly, after they left the planet in Season 3 and the Collaborator subplot was taken care of, the rest of season three except for a few individual episodes (I liked Starbuck's breakdown/disappearance) felt like filler. Again, until the end of the season.

I didn't get that sense in Season 1 as much.

Holy brackets Batman!

[PFI_Optix]

Ron, you've [worked on] both "[Star] Treks" ([The Next Generation] and [Deep Space 9]), and there are often these [episodes that] once in a while [were] not [focused on the] main characters.

It's so cluttered with those things it's hard to read.

Interesting

[Cedric Tsui]

I stopped watching the series after it stopped being about running away from the hoard of robots trying to murder everyone. I'm not terribly interested in complicated relationships. That's what soap operas are for.

Briefly in the early part of the series, things started running out. Simple commodities like whiskey and playing cards. I was upset when that issue disappeared. A random assortment of military and civilian vessels might be well stocked, but they certainly would not have a full assortment of manufacturing capabilities. Especially for specialized good like pharmaceuticals. They eventually addressed a shortage of antibiotics, and the development of a black market. But realistically. They would be able to produce no antibiotics at all.

And really. Why would a passenger vessel capable of hopping between stars in the blink of an eye have manufacturing centers? Or fuel refineries? Or food production capabilities.
I was hoping to see Cloud Nine, the dome greenhouse like ship be converted into agricultural land.

I know these issues aren't nearly as exciting as -getting into bed with your imaginary genocidal robot-

Think about it though. The main goals following some sort of catastrophe like this would be.
1.Stability: Stop whatever killed everyone from still doing so. Stop the panic. Get people working together instead of looting from each other.
2.Preserving technology, infrastructure and supplies. If you've got something that works, you can't replace it. Do whatever you can to keep it working.
3.Rebuilding infrastructure. Need to grow food to live once the supplies run out. Can we built farming workers? No. Can we build tractors? No. Can we build shovels? Yes. Start from there, and learn what we need to make it work.

4.(optional) Preserving knowledge. After everyone's farming, hunting, gathering, or whatever is needed to stay alive. We realize that we still know how to make all sorts of advanced technology, even if we don't have a large enough society to make use of it. It would be valuable to archive all the knowledge so that it is accessible after the last battery runs out of juice.

just my thoughts...

Re:Interesting

[BvF7734]

That's what soap operas are for. I thought that this is what BSG was! Wait a tick...

Re:Interesting

[glwtta]

Why would a passenger vessel capable of hopping between stars in the blink of an eye have manufacturing centers?

Nobody said they are all passenger vessels - it's whatever ships happened to escape destruction, so there are plenty of various industrial ships, as well (a refinery ship was featured specifically several times). Overall, they seem to be pretty advanced technologically, and at least some ships (the BSG itself, especially) were designed to be self-sufficient for extended periods of time - I'm sure it wasn't beyond them to get some basic manufacturing activities up and running.

Anyway, they are still very much at your Step 1, and not doing terribly well at that, either.

Re:Interesting

[jax9999]

There was an episode, the one where they found the temple that referenced the fact that they had pretty much run out of food. They were processing the algae into edible food product.

Re:Interesting

[Shotgun]

2.Preserving technology, infrastructure and supplies. If you've got something that works, you can't replace it. Do whatever you can to keep it working.

That's what I thought of during the Razor episode, when the Admiral wanted to strip the civilian ships and go fight a guerilla war. What the hell, you idiot? You have working ships and people that can operate them. Those people being of a very small set of remaining humans. Why would you just throw either away. Program the ones with FTL spools that are not compatible with the Pegasus jump in next to a base ship and set off a nuclear device. Outfit them with scanning equipment and have them run scouting missions. Mount weapons on them and have one more gun in the battle. Train the people to be soldiers.

In fact, I find the whole series permeated with the idea that there are 'civilians', helpless and incapable of self defence, and the 'military' who must provide all the needs for the civilians. And, somehow, this is as it should be. Sorry, but this is an all out WAR. Get your ass in gear and learn to shoot. Mount a gun on your ship and lend a hand. Human resources is still any organizations greatest asset. They built one additional ship the whole series. It was used for a few episodes and quickly forgotten. What the hell did everyone else do during all those months in space?

Re:Interesting

[Cedric Tsui]

Hmm. Some really good points.
I remember BSG has an impressive water purification system.

As for the the refinery ship. That's plausible.
But do you think they also have a textile factory ship? The uniforms and clothes look just as good in 4 (aired?) than they did in season 1. :p

We definitely need replicators.
Man. I missed the totally logical science of Startrek.

Re:Interesting

[Carcass666]

I think your points about the handling of "civilians" are well-taken. In general, there seems to be this notion that the "civies" should be maintaining, to the extent possible, normal lives; while the "professionals" take care of the fight. That mentality is a bit incongruous with the notion that we are at war. Sort of reminds me of...

Re:Interesting

[kannibal_klown]

And really. Why would a passenger vessel capable of hopping between stars in the blink of an eye have manufacturing centers? Or fuel refineries? Or food production capabilities.

You make a good point about the medicines and such, which is why I'm surprised they didn't mention it when the President was willing to take natural herbs for her disease. They instead flipped out. They did address it in one episode, where a specific group of people got sick. Instead of taking the drug now and saving the rest if the disease came back, they refused at first and they had to use almost all of it to stop this 1 instance. And the doctors were ticked.

Your key point is valid, they're running out of "stuff" and it isn't addressed enough. But we've seen them create "some" of the essentials on the show.

• Ore processing ship, we saw it making fuel.
  That makes sense, send ship to mine asteroid belt, this way comes back hauling load of fuel instead of bulky rock
• Munitions.
  We've seen the assembly lines where they build and pack the bullets using (I'm guessing) previously mentioned mined material.
• In the "Scar" episode, they were supposedly mining a belt to build more fighters (not the Stealth ship, ordinary ship).
• We've seen them salvage water from polar caps and algae for food on random planets. Perhaps it's happened more than once?
• I think we heard about them fermenting different types of liquor in an episode (besides moonshine).

There's probably more, but it's been a while since I've seen the episodes.

Re:Interesting

[The One and Only]

They built one additional ship the whole series. It was used for a few episodes and quickly forgotten.

Actually, it was used for a few episodes and then quickly destroyed in a senseless act of dramatic symbolism.

Re:Interesting

[The Taco Prophet]

Your totally reasonable attitude in considering and accepting counterpoints, then offering interesting counterarguments of your own confuses and frightens me. What's the world coming to?

Re:Interesting

[Cedric Tsui]

lol.
That stealth fighter bothered me too.
I'm sorry. But you can't build a fighter jet today by welding together steel box beams. And you certainly wouldn't be able to build a space fighter either.

Also. It takes a hell of a lot more than using carbon fiber as your surface skin to make something stealth.

But I admit it! Realism makes for crappy TV!

Re:Interesting

[benjin]

My friend and I have actually had this same conversation turn into a full blow argument! We both think that your assumptions about the need to show what happens when everything runs out and what the priority of needs are but I diverge from the agreement about the point when its assumed that they can no longer manufacture things. Here's what I was thinking as best I can put into a short reply.

Somebody brought up the fact that a Battlestar is the equivalent to an aircraft carrier. I would say this is a good start but above that, they need to be a first landing and beach head vessel. That means all the equipment and know how to land an assault on a planet and keep a beach head maintained possibly far enough into space to make resupply hard if not impossible. My friend's counter argument to this was that the Battle Star Galactica was being decommissioned and was probably stripped of most of its heavy arms before the first Cylon assault took place.

The biggest problem I had with this show was in season two when they were on the planet. They lived like shit and I thought the writers did a bad job of showing the progression of tech that would have been second nature by then. The majority of people live in little tents and bivouacked together like it was 1944. This was a great way to relate to a general audience because I think it made their world more tangible but lets be honest, If they can make Battle Stars and Cylons (even the first gen models) then they could manufacture almost on a personal level. It's easy to assume that they had the tech for "printing" cement structures down. We are dabbling in it now and we can't even make it to the moon yet reliably.

With the assumption that they have at least a semi-sophisticated manufacturing process you could think that they would have fabricators on all their ships with enough raw elements to process into basic needs like clothing, contact lenses/glasses, tables etc... The raw elements can be stripped from multiple places as demonstrated at the recycling boiling plants that can be installed at places like chicken farms to strip the organic waste and extra bits into light crude oil and pure carbon and graphene. It's pretty cool to see a bone carcass go through and come out as calcium dust, refined oil, and water. These are then drummed up and sold in bulk to places like tire plants that need the raw materials.

The counter argument was that why would you have a house manufacturing machine on a Battle Star? They never would need it because everyone lives on the ship. Which is why I brought up the whole beach head thing. Forget laying sand bags. Just have it lay down a 4 foot wall with holes built for gunnery posts. it would take half a day and could be cement strong. Not to mention barracks and bunkers. Basically fortification 101 would make it a necessity to carry a few of these machines on a carrier.

The biggest split in conversation happened over food and medicine. Obviously the Battle Star isn't equipped for food production but why not. MRE (Meals Ready to Eat) could be made on the ship with protein bars and so forth like they were doing at the end of the 3rd season from the Algae but it can be taken one step further and medicine can be done the same way. Why wouldn't a deep space city in the sky type of craft have at least the basic cultures for antibiotics and the like in cold storage? Lord knows a battle ship would never need more medicine than they shipped out with.

And the final nail in the coffin is that every Battle Star could have all the city planning and agricultural/ infrastructure information with them at all times. How many gigs of info would basic city and agriculture plans take up? 5-10 TB... Maybe! That would include things like processing machines and power generation. If they had the tech to make artificial intelligence I think they had big enough drives to put a few extra "just incases" on some free space. Not to mention the on-ship Library that a Aircraft carrier has that might have been beefed u

Re:Interesting

[jollyreaper]

Briefly in the early part of the series, things started running out. Simple commodities like whiskey and playing cards. I was upset when that issue disappeared. A random assortment of military and civilian vessels might be well stocked, but they certainly would not have a full assortment of manufacturing capabilities. Especially for specialized good like pharmaceuticals. They eventually addressed a shortage of antibiotics, and the development of a black market. But realistically. They would be able to produce no antibiotics at all.

And really. Why would a passenger vessel capable of hopping between stars in the blink of an eye have manufacturing centers? Or fuel refineries? Or food production capabilities.
I was hoping to see Cloud Nine, the dome greenhouse like ship be converted into agricultural land.

I know these issues aren't nearly as exciting as -getting into bed with your imaginary genocidal robot It's because they never thought the whole premise through. According to the show, the twelve colonies were all in one system. Why would there even be a need for interstellar transit if you never had to go further than the next planet over? The analogy here would be coastal lighters used to flee across the Pacific, only the distances are thousands of times greater. How are they carrying enough fuel and consumables? Why would they even have that range to begin with? It would be as if my little commuter Cessna just so happened to be capable of intercontinental flight, even though I only used it to go to the next state. Hell, the space shuttle could probably be rigged to reach Mars if they used those weird low-energy transfer orbits (stick an ion drive and reaction mass in the cargo bay) but the trip would take years and years and the consumables would run out in less than a month.

What probably would have been a smarter way to go with the series is to assume that the Cylons are like the Japanese in WWII, strong striking force but incapable of keeping up rapid production. Make up some sort of applied techno-babble that says they can crank out raiders and centurions but the AI's in their basestars take ages to nurture and grow. So they could not take the humans in a stand-up fight, thus requiring the decapitation strike. They knew they could not get all of the human colonies at once, they tried to get the biggest ones and take out the bulk of the fleet, then would mop up the rest at their leisure. Also, if they spread the main colonies among several star systems with further splinter settlements, then there's some real drama. Assume the colonies are spread between four major star systems. Ok, the Cylon fleet is divided into four task groups, they use the trickery to get through the defenses. Galactica manages an escape. Info trickling in later shows that it was not just the one system that was hit, all four are gone. The crew goes from thinking they're going to meet up with fleet elements for a counter-attack to realizing they're most of what's left of the fleet. They then realize that the Cylons are going to begin a systematic sweep of the outer colonies, the ones founded after the big 12. So the first season is then about trying to get there before the Cylons, building up the rag-tag fleet. From there they can have the wangst about whether the Cylons are still shitfire hot about genocide, if they have second thoughts, etc etc.

I have no idea where they're planning on ending the current series but I think making the Cylons human was a mistake. The whole feel of the original was fighting against an enemy so unfeeling, so remorseless that they may as well be a force of nature. Yeah, they forgot about that and went silly early on but that's still what I felt was the core of the show. You can get the soap opera relationship strife wangst anywhere. The emotional trauma I want to see is related to the premise of the show, how people are reacting and cracking under the pressure, not Melrose Space crap.

Re:Interesting

[jjk3]

According to the show, the twelve colonies were all in one system.

Is this true? I've watched the series pretty religiously, even watched session 1-2.5 two or three times and I never remember them mentioning they are all in the same system. I thought it was left vague. Can anyone reference the episode, or ideally quote the lines, that establishes that they are all in the same system.

Thanks,

Joe

Re:Interesting

[freedom_india]

I stopped watching the series after it Exactly. I stopped watching after Season 1.
Political satire, jokes about Gitmo and human rights are something i can readily read on Salon.com or other news papers. And for jokes, i can watch FOX News or even O'reilly.

Re:Interesting

[jollyreaper]

It was a special comment by the show creator. You can probably find confirmation on a battlestar wiki. Ever wonder how the Galactica could be a commissioned warship and yet hasn't used the jump drive in decades? That's because it was on patrol in that single star system. Makes no sense. RDM said he kept this detail because it was homage to the original series.

Much as I like Firefly, they take that idea and go crazy with it. Every planet and moon you see in that show is supposed to be in one oversized solar system.

Re:Interesting

[YttriumOxide]

I also made the assumption they're all in the same system, but I think you're right that it is never explicitly said so.

My reasoning behind my assumption is that travelling with the FTL drives is a "new experience" for many people right at the start of Season 1, yet travelling to other colonies was fairly normal. So, that'd pretty much imply they're all in the same system.

However, to counter the GP - who says that they ONLY ever needed to travel around the 12 colonies? One could easily imagine that they'd have interstellar travel for research and possible future colonisation - it just happened that the first Cylon war kind of "interrupted" their technological progress a bit, and they never got around to colonisation of anywhere else.

Caprica series

[T-Kir]

What with BSG finishing on SCI-FI, the rumour is that they might be giving the prequel series 'Caprica' a look... so that will show the creation of the Cylons and their eventual rebellion.

Re:Caprica series

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sick of this Science Fiction stuff on the Sci-Fi channel. Why don't they show more Pro Wrestling?

Re: MASSIVE plot holes

[mofag]

I see what you're saying but I am actually looking forward to series 4 to find out if there is a consistent explanation to all that has gone on in series 1 2 and 3. I actually can't imagine one consistent perspective (apart from the "universe as simulation" cop-out which means it will be wizard of oz all over again!) that could explain everything they have written but I will watch in the vain but glorious hope that they surprise me. If so then its got to be the best sci-fi to date. If not then its contemptible quasi-intellectual nonsense and the writers need shot. I'm on the edge of my seat!

To see ourselves as others see us

[Serious Callers Only]

I think the series is scripted to provoke exactly the kind of conflictual emotions you have mentioned - it's an old trick and it works well for retaining viewer interest. The interesting thing is that you feel the writers haven't considered these issues - I don't think they show the humans in an uncritical light at all, in fact many of the worst acts in the war are committed by humans (rape, torture, etc), I think you're feeling exactly what you're supposed to feel - i.e. 'Hang on a minute, that's not right'.

By showing both sides of the conflict, they're shedding light on the tricks we play on ourselves to make warfare acceptable. Rather cleverly, they've cast the robots as more human than the humans in many ways (religious, questioning, constantly seeking resolution), and difficult for the viewer to tell apart from humans. People are being tortured right now in the name of the US and the UK, so I think it's rather apposite that they show humans trying to justify this by dehumanising their enemy - now perhaps they still show torture working sometimes, and they fail to show the effects it has on the torturers in terms of twisting their moral sense, but torture does happen in most wars, and they're right to show it. Nicknames like toaster etc are very common in times of war (see names for Germans or Japanese used in the states in WWII)- it's the first step in preparing to wipe out an enemy; suppress empathy. I'm sure you could find people who applauded the fire-bombing of Dresden, because of being dehumanised by war.

Now the scripts are far from perfect, and in many ways it's a standard sci-fi pot-boiler, but there are elements which are definitely interesting, and I don't believe for a minute that the writers are not aware of the buttons they are pushing, or that they somehow feel all the actions of the humans are justified. Much time is spent discussing whether in fact these actions are correct or acceptable in any circumstances, and the introduction of several cylon characters into the human fleet is designed to bring home this distinction - personally I don't agree with their justification of torture, but it's not as naive as something like '24' at least, where jack gets out his pistol and whacks evil super-villains on the head with it a few times till they give up the secret code to their nuclear weapons. They've also played with insurrection and when/whether it is justified, which I thought was a very useful topic to examine right now in the west.

I agree the politics can be caricatured at points, though the revolt of workers was not unusual in its outcome - If you look at the history of industrialised nations, you will see many cases of exactly this behaviour - the 1848 revolutions in several other european countries fizzled out before they got going, and the earlier frame breakers/luddites have even become a byword for stupidity, even though their grievances were real and their movement brutally repressed. When workers are not organised or allied with the middle classes they're going to have a hard time fighting a heavily armed government determined to impose order, and often the best option is to give up and bide their time.

I just wish they based more of their scripts on historical events, to give it a bit more grit and a bit less of the trite pablum which passes for political discourse in America at the moment - at times I felt like I was watching the first episode of the West wing, particularly when that president opens her mouth, or they had that journalist woman being defused by being allowed access to the military (a nice idea, and stylistically quite fun with the grainy footage, but again came out a bit trite). I finally got bored with it all after the 3rd series, and gave up on it - it turned into a soap opera, and not a very good one, and the mixture of shallow political/social analysis and faith was just too much for me. There's a lot there that could be good, but unfortunately they went for the easy options too many times, and felt it necessary to add lots of trite filler and romantic stuffing that didn't really belong. But perhaps that's why they didn't get cancelled and Firefly did.

I don't feel the show is encouraging xenophobia though, quite the opposite, it's encouraging you to think about it.

The majority practice hypocrisy

[gobbo]

True story: back during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, I had lunch with a well educated, mild-mannered, drug and gun running mujehaddin working in India. When he found out I wasn't going to be a customer, he relaxed and we talked religion. He asserted that there were more Buddhists than any other religion. I scoffed and began quoting the other statistics in this thread, but he replied:

"Few christians are actually christian, and few muslims are actually muslim... but most buddhists are actually buddhist."

Re:The majority practice hypocrisy

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, ok. I like to get all my information from drug and gun running mujehaddins, because they tend to have such a unique, honest perspective on world religions. Please pass on any other tidbits.

Re:The majority practice hypocrisy

[gobbo]

whoosh!

Re:The majority practice hypocrisy

[davidsyes]

I like that, actually. It made me laugh, pleasantly.

As I understand it, his statement can be bolstered by Buddhist teachings that we all have the Buddha essence. Whether we practice it or not, we all have the capability to eventually become not just A Buddha, but THE Buddha. It's just a matter of attaining true enlightenment. And, enlightenment is something that is VERY hard for most of us to attain, since we are suffer various afflictions: attachment, revenge, lust, greed, and more, keeping us in the birth-death-rebirth cycle until we've had enough.

To me, I think more people could or ought to embrace reincarnation (and the chance to redeem oneself (recall that Cylon regeneration and contemporary Buddhist reincarnation are themes we see in BSG--- I think many Buddhists scholars and monks might actually "attach" to BSG on those themes alone...) and hopefully LEARN and repent over multiple lifetimes than doggedly accept that ALL WE GET IS ONE SHOT. Hell, 2 months, 5 years, 75 years or 100 years is simply NOT enough time to learn to avoid Hell or Purgatory. And, if there is no reincarnation, then why do I merit gaining access to Heaven (the Christian or other heaven) if I've committed adultery, fornication, theft, murder, slander, libel, acts of greed, selfishness, and callously watched MILLIONS die because I was too self-absorbed and too chickenshit to slay corrupt politicians, elite and ultra wealthy at the root of the problem?

By NO means am I well-enlightened. But, BSG and Buddhism are far more appealing to me than most anything I can see on the screen or do on the weekends...

Brilliant portrayal of racism!

[fugue]

The racism/specism you're complaining about is a major theme of the show, examined from many angles over the years. I would question the intelligence of anyone who, seeing the whole show, managed to read it as "the humans are always right" (although modern-day USA Republicans do this pretty reliably). But the show also does a great job of capturing humans' (and especially military humans') obstinance, myopia, and penchant for recourse to violence---from the point of view of those humans. If each episode ended with a firm moral of "the racists were justly punished" it wouldn't be nearly as realistic or deep. Not only are they showing situational racism realistically, but also the long-term causes and effects of it in a reasonably typical human society.

Different members of the crews learn at different rates, and experience different inner conflicts. I'd be very surprised if anyone watching the show completely took the side of the humans (or the cylons) without some pretty deep introspection. Just because a "moral" isn't explicitly presented and verbalised every ten minutes (as they all are---at great length---in Babylon 5) doesn't mean that it's not there.

Original source.

[antdude]

It was from Entertainment Weekly and it is interactive with description for each person.

Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

The problem with this show is that it revels in hippie stupidity. I'm not surprised to see some of that same stupidity echoed here, as it is a very prevalent and very damaging mindset.

That anybody could look at the fictional basis of this show - a race of cyborgs intent upon destroying the entire human species - and then somehow pretend that humans are the 'true evil' ... that defies sense. These people try to make an allegory between the cyborgs and terrorists in the modern world, and the funny thing is that their allegory is correct but really shows the stupidity of their position: you do not feel sorry for a group whose only purpose is to destroy you. It gains you nothing, and in fact attempting to do so only aids the enemy.

The show was excellent when it started because it seemed it would avoid all this nonsense. But the minute the weepy, cancer-having-but-not-dying Great Mom figure started lecturing us all about decency and democracy it plummeted right off the cliff of liberal dogmatism. When you are the last few thousand people of an extinct species, running for your lives, you don't need greater 'rights and privileges'. You don't need elections and protests and labor laws. You need everybody pulling in the same direction to try to keep yourselves alive and destroy the enemy.

It doesn't amaze me that the show went this way because the creators have shown themselves to be pretty run-of-the-mill feminized hippies. Look at their other creation, the execrable 'Bionic Woman'. Me, I pine for the days when you could actually portray masculinity - you know, the trait that got mankind where it is and keeps us alive - in a positive light.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. Your dick must be 12" long!

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[demented]

I don't know whether they are hippies or not, but they did display something that could even be seen as borderline stupidity or naivety regarding such a strong theme of bare survival of the last remains of a human kind.

Nobody seems to notice a simple fact: there were 12bn people at the beginning of the show, and in couple of minutes after that they were down to mere 40+ thousand. It's about 0.0004 percent - it's not even a statistical error, it's a rounding error! And it's the second war with Cylons who very effectively showed to all that they are into exterminating the human species. You cannot make peace treaties with somebody who annihilated your entire species - you fight until one side does not exist anymore. Period.

The normal thing any government would do in situations far, far, far, far, far... better than that is to implement marshal law through and through. And here we have some idiots who are trying to still stick to the 'ole democracy principles' like it's some scholarly issue?! The workers' strike? At the only facility that produces fuel for all the ships, including fighters (in other words, the most important element in human survival there)? Facilities like this are part of the military in such conditions - the workers there are effectively soldiers under command in war - disobeying orders in wartime situations by the soldiers usually ends up by putting ringleaders against the wall in front of the firing squad, if not all of them. And soldier ('Halo' Agathon) who intentionally sabotages the activity that would bring the ultimate victory in this war of annihilation, even it could be seen as genocidal by some, is not a brave and moral individual - he is a traitor of his own species, and should be punished as any traitor in war was before him! Human rights and morals in situations like that are voluntarily resigned because they can (and usually do) prevent the system to function optimally! It's not about way of life, or this or that religion or political idea prevailing, it's about bare survival of an entire species!

After all, there's an old saying: if democracy works, why doesn't military implement it within its own ranks...

That's real life. BSG isn't even a good description of reality in fictional universe. I don't dispute that authors of the show wanted to raise some genuine questions, but they did it in a totally wrong setup, which only made these questions less genuine and more artificial, and whole show barely watchable.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

you do not feel sorry for a group whose only purpose is to destroy you. It gains you nothing, and in fact attempting to do so only aids the enemy.

I do. Unless you see your enemies for who they really are, then how will you overcome them? And why doesn't your enemy deserve to live?

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

You cannot make peace treaties with somebody who annihilated your entire species - you fight until one side does not exist anymore. Period.

Holy shit. With idiots like this around, no wonder we still live in a world full of war, terrorism, and hate. Not all of us are just animals, you know.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

There is so much that is sad about the nonsense you are spouting - that people accept it as truth, that we teach it to our gullible children, that it actively undermines our own capacity for survival. But undoubtedly the most irritating thing about it is the smugness of your ignorance. You don't adopt the position because it's logical. You adopt it because it lets you have a little smug sense of moral superiority. It's pathetic. Next time you're in a fight, when the other guy is beating the crap out of you, be sure to take time to 'understand' him. Or if a guy breaks into your house, try to get to the bottom of his motivation for doing so while he murders your family. Practice what you preach, or stop preaching.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

"Unless you see your enemies for who they really are, then how will you overcome them"

With force. The only thing that has ever resolved such conflicts.

"And why doesn't your enemy deserve to live"

In this case? Because your enemy wants to ANNHIALIATE YOUR SPECIES and will NEVER STOP TRYING TO DO SO.

Were you born without your survival chip? Report to your nearest service center.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

With force. The only thing that has ever resolved such conflicts.

Gandhi just called -- he thinks you're a moron.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

You don't adopt the position because it's logical. You adopt it because it lets you have a little smug sense of moral superiority.

Really? I could have sworn that it's for logical reasons. You just don't know them because your mindset it so ingrain in thinking such survivalistic ways. Besides, I don't feel morally superiority. I'm the way I am simply because I believe it's the right thing to do for both myself and others. I don't believe in superiority -- that is egotistical.

It's pathetic. Next time you're in a fight, when the other guy is beating the crap out of you, be sure to take time to 'understand' him.

If someone got into a fight with me, I'd try to defend myself, but I wouldn't hold it against them, as they must be a troubled person in need of help to do such a thing.

Or if a guy breaks into your house, try to get to the bottom of his motivation for doing so while he murders your family.

Luckily, these things are unlikely to even happen. And what is wrong with using just enough force to prevent your family from harm? Do you honestly believe that criminals have no feelings? Do you really think that are all inhuman, and that they aren't just like you at their core? Don't you think these people need help, rather than punishment? Do you not believe that helping these people will help prevent these things from happening? Or perhaps you would be too caught up with trying to get revenge?

You do actually watch the show, right? Because the original point has been brought up (that point being if it is OK to completely wipe out an enemy). And I can assure you, the message was not that it's definitely the right thing to do. How is an enemy suffering more OK than someone else? Why do you think people do these things in the first place? Do you think people are incapable of change?

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[servognome]

When you are the last few thousand people of an extinct species, running for your lives, you don't need greater 'rights and privileges'. You don't need elections and protests and labor laws. You need everybody pulling in the same direction to try to keep yourselves alive and destroy the enemy.

You need to convice several thousand people, who are used to various rights to pull together in the same direction. It's easier to control people using the existing system than go through the storming process of getting people to follow a new method of rule. That's why the Secretary of Garbage Collecting is in line to become president if a bunch of other people die... not because of any merit, but just to keep the masses under control.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

your mindset it so ingrain in thinking such survivalistic Of course. You know why? Because survival is a key instinct. In fact, the greatest mark of foolishness in an endeavor or ideology is the presence of tangible or substantial risk to your survival.

Do you honestly believe that criminals have no feelings? Do you honestly believe that it matters? How can you not understand the concept of the struggle for survival?

It amazes me that people who think they are intelligent need to have such basic ideas explained to them. They will pontificate endlessly on how 'alike' you and your enemy are, how you need to 'understand their feelings'. Yet you fail to grasp the fundamental point that these strategies are for the non-combat arena. These are methods of diplomacy. When diplomacy fails your mentality must change.

And I can assure you, the message was not that it's definitely the right thing to do. Clearly I understand that. It was the basis of my original complaint. That is what is so irksome and tiresome about the show - that after presenting a very stark, black-and-white basis for the story, they then continue with the tired, trite, cliche sci-fi trope of looking for 'gray area'. They've explicitly established the story to have no gray area. It is a binary situation: mankind versus killing machines intent upon our destruction.

The fact that people actually see sense in applying the touchy-feely nonsense of our hippified left-wing society even into this extreme fictional realm is an indicator of how insidious the ideology has become.

How is an enemy suffering more OK than someone else? Because he is your enemy. Again, I am amazed that I have to explain this to you. You cannot win if you consider your enemy to be of equal or greater importance to you.

Why do you think people do these things in the first place? Why do you imagine causation to be relevant? This is another tiresome new-age mantra. Tell me, have you figured out crack addiction yet? How about rape? Got an answer for murder? Well guess what - you never will. Human behavior is the ultimate black box. While we should certainly continue to try to understand it, and continue to try to identify and fix problems, we should never delude ourselves into thinking that this will have 100% success.

Do you think people are incapable of change? Yes, I'm sure with a good cry and a hug those killer cyborgs will learn the error of their ways.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

I simply think the matter could have been put to better use specifically by not going to the diplomacy angle. If Adama had addressed the civilians and explained to them that, by the way, they're in a struggle for the survival of their entire species against killer cyborgs, the whole voting thing would have appeared very foolish. And as for the prisoners - they should have been executed. Mutiny in a time of war? They're already convicts anyway.

The problem is that what should happen isn't as weepy and melodramatic as the hippie fantasy stuff. The problem with going the wishy-washy "are we really the bad guys?!?" angle is that it gives the show no backbone. Our country's already full of a bunch of whiny people with no backbone constantly yammering about how bad things are. Shouldn't sci-fi be escapist?

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

Yeah, that racist, enema-giving weirdo is really someone to emulate.

Given how much your type love fairy tales, another reality check may be devastating. But you do realize that Gandhi's great 'non-violent' success actually was mostly good timing. India refused to participate in WWII. Britain was already overtaxed fighting this war and did not need to become embroiled in a conflict with India. So they agreed to negotiate when he - 'non-violent', indeed - managed to mobilize hundreds of thousands of people to rebel. Implied violence is violence.

Even granting it was resolved without major violence, one exception does not disprove the rule (rules are not, after all, scientific proofs).

And, by the way, every person in every other conflict in the history of man thinks you're a moron. You know what happened to Jews who tried to 'see things from the Nazi side'?

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[demented]

You don't adopt the position because it's logical. You adopt it because it lets you have a little smug sense of moral superiority.

Really? I could have sworn that it's for logical reasons. You just don't know them because your mindset it so ingrain in thinking such survivalistic ways. Besides, I don't feel morally superiority. I'm the way I am simply because I believe it's the right thing to do for both myself and others. I don't believe in superiority -- that is egotistical.

And what, pray tell, are these logical reasons? Can you explain them, in simple words, to us, survivalist idiots?

Meanwhile, I'll try to explain my logic to you:

• another species attacked; by the size of this attack we are likely to conclude that this is a carefully planned and thus premeditated action
• the actions of the enemy brought the human kind at 0.0004 percent of its former size. Conclusion: the goal of the enemy is to annihilate the whole of the human kind
• the remaining population does not represent any sort of threat to the enemy, yet they had been constantly being attacked in order to be destroyed. Conclusion: this is a further evidence on enemy's intentions
• we don't know (at the outburst of hostilities) whether this attack was provoked or not, but we know that it if by very, very far beyond the level of possible provocation. Conclusion: another evidence of enemy's intentions to annihilate human kind.
• this is a known enemy - we fought them before, and the war ended with our victory and a treaty which aimed to restore peace by separating two species to prevent further collision. Conclusion: the treaty was held by a threat of retaliation from our side; as soon as enemy concluded that it can achieve military supremacy and fend off the threat of retaliation it broke the treaty and restored hostilities
• the remains of human kind are not in possession of any argument that could force the enemy to stop its activities to completely destroy our species. Furthermore, we cannot be sure that any kind of deal with the enemy which could achieve the peace would stand, based on previous experience. Conclusion: the enemy cannot be trusted to cease its activities to destroy us, therefore the only logical action is to continue to fight until the enemy's ability to fight is completely destroyed and we could be assured it will not regain this ability before remains of human kind establish their military might that could match the enemy's. What that actually means is that the enemy must be practically annihilated.

It's pathetic. Next time you're in a fight, when the other guy is beating the crap out of you, be sure to take time to 'understand' him.

If someone got into a fight with me, I'd try to defend myself, but I wouldn't hold it against them, as they must be a troubled person in need of help to do such a thing.

Or if a guy breaks into your house, try to get to the bottom of his motivation for doing so while he murders your family.

Luckily, these things are unlikely to even happen. And what is wrong with using just enough force to prevent your family from harm? Do you honestly believe that criminals have no feelings? Do you really think that are all inhuman, and that they aren't just like you at their core? Don't you think these people need help, rather than punishment? Do you not believe that helping these people will help prevent these things from happening? Or perhaps you would be too caught up with trying to get revenge?

The main problem with your reasoning is that you are taking the very extreme situation (total annihilation war, that actually never happened) and trying to deduce from it a general behavioral pattern robocop and myself presented regarding any physical threat to one individual. These are totally different situations: it's not that somebody broke in your apartment and killed your family - it's much more drastic than that:

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[benjin]

I know that this might not be looked at since it's a couple of days old but I've been following your conversation and think some parts of each are right. This is not some bullshit everyone is friends lets make up statement. Grew up military but live civilian now. There's a big gap between what would happen if such a war happened here and now and if it happened for the second time in 40 years. I think the premise of the whole genocide was a reaction to the genocide/ enslavement that the Cylons were facing 40 years previous to the current show. I think the premise for that was surrender and be the toaster slaves that you were made to be or face annihilation. I think the big strike was just a carry over from the first war kind of like people who were alive at the time of WWII thinking it was just the conclusion to WWI. I've read a few interviews and books about generals who were in the first war thinking that the second was inevitable. But that's kind of a side thought to what came across my mind when I read the posts.

I totally agree that survival is a base primal instinct that is there for a reason. That and to reproduce. Every higher level organism on Earth will fight if it has even a shred of a chance in coming out alive. But that's kind of the point of religion, philosophy, and most recently sci-fi like Star Trek, Farscape, and even Battle Star. It's the strive to not repeat the cycle of violence that we have been stuck in since we were able to shit. It's to be better than ourselves. The whole turn the other cheek thing was a direct response to the fact that war is not winnable only extendable. It was a very basic idea of just cutting the motion of intent off instead of amplifying it back. Fighting to the death only succeeds on a personal level. One of the basic treaties of war was to know your enemy...if only to know where to strike the most effective blow. But another one that was most famously stated by Machiavelli was that if you're going to wipe out a regime you better wipe out every person in the family older or younger because they'll come for you sooner or later. Yea, good luck finding that second cousin that was whisked away in a basket down the river. Lord knows that doesn't come back to bite anyone in Biblical proportions.

I've studied about five different martial arts for about 25 years and have seen the nastiest battlefield version down to the first one to tap the other person wins sports and the general feeling is one of moving form panic to understanding and overcoming the other person. We're still talking singular to small group here. Styles like Wing Chun are closer to battlefield arts in mentality because every response it the same...Beat the snot out of the other person until they are a bloody pulp. Break as much as possible as quickly as possible. That's great and all but kinda fucks your ability to respond to a drunk in a bar.

If your at all decent in a martial art, a one on one fight is like somebody asking a pro ball player to settle a bet with a friendly game of ball. You can't kill some drunk stock broker in a bar just because he challenged you to a contest in your field of interest. Arts like Tai Chi and Akido do a good job of teaching response that will allow you to look the other guy in the face afterwards not his family. The same is exponential for war.

  I would never tell some one out in the field to not shot somebody that's shooting at them but as a general that is safe and not having his skull grazed all day long you can say things like, "Fall back, we've built a perimeter and were going to let them strave a little till they're ready to talk." Still kinda brutal but no where near, "Let's nuke 'em." Because if you miss even .004% of the people you were aiming for they'll be back.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[cptnapalm]

Well you have at least one reader :)

The problem with your analogy between individual martial arts combat and war is that, given the premise of the show, there is no war equivalent of Akido. There was a "we will not be exterminated" option and a "we are in an impossible to underestimate danger of being exterminated" option. The elimination of 99.996% of the enemy will mean that we will not be exterminated any time soon. So the "nuke 'em" option, in the specific case of truly total war presented by the show, is perfectly legitimate as killing would be perfectly acceptable were you attacked by 3 or 4 guys all just as good if not better than you at your mastered martial arts and who intend to kill you.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[servognome]

If Adama had addressed the civilians and explained to them that, by the way, they're in a struggle for the survival of their entire species against killer cyborgs, the whole voting thing would have appeared very foolish

And most people wouldn't care, they don't want to run, they want to settle down and start a life of normality. Ultimately the question comes up, if you don't stop there, then when?

And as for the prisoners - they should have been executed. Mutiny in a time of war? They're already convicts anyway.

So take an active role in pushing your species to extinction?

The problem is that what should happen isn't as weepy and melodramatic as the hippie fantasy stuff.

What is nice about the show is it explores the different angle. Take the hard line military approach like Admiral Cain and you are killing off your species to fight a war you've already lost. Take a military centric (though not kill civilians in your way) and you end up alienating a portion of the population and they'll head off in their own direction rather than follow military rule - a la the half of the fleet that followed the civilian president rather than the Adama led military. Give in to the will of the people and settle down and you end up having the Cylons show up (as expected) and controlling your society.
The show tends towards the more liberal route, just because you have to follow one thread, but it does explore the pros & cons of the other methods of rule. Hell, it even showed that a portion of the remaining humans were ultra-flower power preaching peace with the cylons and sabatoging the military.

The problem with going the wishy-washy "are we really the bad guys?!?" angle is that it gives the show no backbone.

What I like is there is no good, no bad - it preaches one thing, then turns around and reflects on the morality of such choices, all of which have pros and cons. The humans commiting suicide bombing at first pass were seen as martyrs, but looking deeper they were interfering with peace and progress as symbolized by a drink the cylons offered one of the human police officers.
I prefer such moral ambiguity over a black and white space opera like Star Wars; or any of the cut & dry Cold War westerns. Sometimes the hero doesn't always do the right thing.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[robocrop]

And most people wouldn't care, they don't want to run, they want to settle down and start a life of normality Which is precisely why you don't listen to the people. The people do not know anything about military strategy, and survival is a realm in which military strategy is paramount. If you establish a home base you can be destroyed easily. This is one of the more ridiculous parts of the later episodes.

So take an active role in pushing your species to extinction? Sure, in the same way that killing someone in self-defense is 'taking an active role in pushing your species to extinction'. If someone is more concerned with their own well-being than with the survival of their species, they are not worth the time and effort to save them.

What is nice about the show is it explores the different angle. Take the hard line military approach like Admiral Cain and you are killing off your species to fight a war you've already lost. And that's precisely the issue: in order to make the peace-and-flowers hippie angle seem the 'right' one, they have to be dishonest about the actual right one. It isn't a choice of 'throw yourself against the machines until dead' or 'start a democracy'. The proper choice in this situation is martial law. Yet we've been brainwashed into having a kneejerk negative reaction to martial law. It is always painted in a fascist light, as if it were something imposed on a whim for the betterment of some evil behind-the-scenes puppetmaster. Martial law is military rule in times of great risk and uncertainty.

What I like is there is no good, no bad - it preaches one thing, then turns around and reflects on the morality of such choices, all of which have pros and cons. Yes, well, a lot of people despise this mealy-mouth nonsense. It gets nobody anywhere. And there's already enough of that junk on TV, in books, in movies. That's the problem with this insidious liberal nonsense - it's like cancer eating away at our society.

As I stated above, the reason it is particularly ridiculous in this instance is because the situation is black and white. There is no gray. It's man versus ruthless killing machines. There is no room for tweed-wearing, beard-stroking, pipe-smoking post-graduate students sitting around and mulling the 'humanity' of the killing machines.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[benjin]

I totally agree with your analogy about the four guys. If a group of people want your blood and all being equal then you fucked up being there in the first place. Without getting to wishy washy about it. There's an analogy in Tai Chi about 4 ounces of pressure can divert a 1000 lbs. of force.
Meaning that if you use just a little effort in the right place then you don't have to deal with the tidal wave later. In a way I think the CIA use this analogy to reason a bunch of little wars are better than one big world one. Letting off the steam a little so to speak. This goes back to the whole General thing being not about the action of the soldier but the movement of the army as a whole to be most effective.

I don't know if the whole population thing being reduced to a few thousand means that the Cylons in this instance can't be wiped out. They never say just how many Cylons there are in the first place. There could only be a live population of 200,000 at any given time. Might be some hefty odds but definitely not insurmountable. Plus the whole rebirth thing makes them sloppy. That what was so great about the "Scar" episode. It showed that once rebirth was no longer an option the kill rates of the Raiders went up. So they might be able to kill all humans but it would take a sacrifice of their own on a cultural level that might be too much.

When I hear anyone say there is not a way to do something I immediately start thinking about ways to do it. So of coarse when you said that there is no equivalent to Akido in war I started think if there could be. The best I got so far is the use of those stunning beam weapons just made and the Geneva Convention. Even if the other side won't follow it you can at least hold your morale together by keeping some basic human rights. The Cylons could have been wiped out theoretically with the hepatitis or what ever the disease was but that would have made an iron clad enemy if it would have survived with a true demon like immorality in us proven that they could use against us and some would agree with them. The Cylons in the show started to see that there were some lines that were not crossable if they wanted to appease their one God and keep themselves better than the humans.

Remember that they considered humans beneath them in the beginning but that was only while they had no interaction with them on an intimate level. Six didn't consider sex intimate and only felt sorry once she could feel the permanent loss of her familiar love. I think that might be one of those no kidding statements but we don't get a whole lot of this stuff in TV. The Cylons are a good example of the throw away consumer culture at its worst. You don't have to take care of anything including your body. Once they had to keep something after trauma, you started to see a cherishing of their community and individuality. They realized the mistake of the genocide. It was like a scorned child killing their parent by accident and only after trying to shake the dead carcass saying it was just playing. Do you blame the child for the accident or the parent for not noticing the warning signs. I don't know... This becomes pretty hippy wishy washy at this point but I think this grey would still be there after the end of the world. People get kooky when they're in denial of a situation. I think the genocide of the known world might bring on a little long term denial about the magnitude of the situation. Not to mention the feeling of helplessness that might be prevailing in the populace stuck in long coffins looking for death from a random spark of light from a random Cylon raider. Self destruction could easily prevail. I think of The Diary of Anne Frank and the close call because the friend was being sloppy and making noise. I don't remember the book too much but you get the sentiment.

I love that a show can illicit this kind of talk!

Just on a sidenote, I've learned from real masters and it's almost an insult to call a real master a "Master". It's like saying that they are at an end. Not that that level isn't enough of an accomplishment but just that there is always something to see and refine. The one I really knew thought it just sounded like you were trying to stroke his ego. You showed respect through your learning.

Re:Hippies Ruined This Show

[servognome]

Which is precisely why you don't listen to the people. The people do not know anything about military strategy, and survival is a realm in which military strategy is paramount. If you establish a home base you can be destroyed easily. This is one of the more ridiculous parts of the later episodes.

This gets to the fundamental question of how power is granted from the people. At what point does the military requirements step on the very people it is meant to protect. Typically such fundamental conflicts get resolved through civil war, unfortunately with only about 50k people, those in power really can't afford it.

If someone is more concerned with their own well-being than with the survival of their species, they are not worth the time and effort to save them

Problem is you can't just toss people aside, as with a limited population they are important assets. You can't just execute the revolters on a refining ship, because then there'd be nobody to refine.

The proper choice in this situation is martial law. Yet we've been brainwashed into having a kneejerk negative reaction to martial law. It is always painted in a fascist light, as if it were something imposed on a whim for the betterment of some evil behind-the-scenes puppetmaster. Martial law is military rule in times of great risk and uncertainty.

And as that was explored, half the people left because even if it's the right choice they refused it. Again it gets back to trying to control people, you can institute martial law, but only if the people are willing to accept it. It's much easier to use existing systems people are used to and make the tough decisions behind the scenes.
Further the fear of martial law is that it would continue endlessly. The danger of instituting such a system with centralized power is those in power would never want to give it up, even if the humans survive a thousand years there will still be the Cylon boogey man that could show up any time.

As I stated above, the reason it is particularly ridiculous in this instance is because the situation is black and white. There is no gray. It's man versus ruthless killing machines. There is no room for tweed-wearing, beard-stroking, pipe-smoking post-graduate students sitting around and mulling the 'humanity' of the killing machines.

I guess you ignored the first question that the series begs - are the Cylons still just "machines." At what point must you sit down recognize the sentience and rights of an emergent intelligence?

Worth dying for?

[grassy_knoll]

these are ideals worth dying for

You first.

Survivors will either forget you ever existed, or use you as an example of what not to do.

When faced with a genocidal enemy, genocide is an acceptable response since not resisting would tend toward extinction.

For the obligatory star trek reference, perhaps Section 31 would handle the messy bits for you so you can maintain your high ideals.

nice try man

[deft]

Nice try, but shes not going to sleep with you. Even with her shackled on your basement apartment floor... she's still not going to sleep with you.

And no, that amore script your writing isnt going to work on her super advanced compy brain. She's not going to love you.

Sorry I had to be the one to say it.

Hippies...

[AdmiralWeirdbeard]

you keep using that word. i dont think you know what it means.

Re:Is BSG still relevant? Somewhat agree, but ...

[Herschel Cohen]

The beginning of season three, despite the story elements still resulted in less than I expected or hoped to see. Later episodes were of uneven quality. Those dealing primarily with the Cylon life style were unsatisfying, despite my interest. Nonetheless, the season ended strongly. This ending along with Razor, has given the series new found freedom to happen upon the unexpected. I cannot wait until the DVD for season 4 finally appears.

One problem you may not be explicitly stating, is that watching the show on SciFi channel, even a recorded version, inflicts too much pain. Whatever the quality of the show, the stupid, incessant and repetitive commercials alone destroy any show's worth. Add to that the junk thrown on the screen to distract the eye, e.g. upcoming shows you would not watch if you were paid to do so are the final unbearable insult.

preachy shows

[jollyreaper]

A lot of people complain about shows getting preachy and derailing the quality of the entertainment to make some sort of moral statement. Some people consider any amount of preaching derailment, no matter the quality. I don't mind preaching but I do hate it when that sort of thing knocks the show off the rails. Derailment comes in the form of making people out of character, contorting the internal logic of the show to bring the issue up, and knocking the flow of the overall series off the tracks.

Galactica has been guilty of all of those. I gave up when they decided to do the whole Iraq occupation thing. For starters, settling on a planet makes no sense when your enemy is space-borne and can hunt you down. That violates sound military doctrine in the context of the show. Second, how do you apply terror tactics against an enemy who is effectively immortal? While somewhat cheesy and seemingly a wasted effort, suicide bomber Cylons make sense in that they are immortal and will come back after they die. It would still seem more sensible for them to conduct a larger sabotage given how far they've infiltrated into the Colonial military. But for humans to suicide attack Cylons? Again, it's one thing if you're talking about a Viper pilot pressing home an attack against a basestar. Losing a capital ship should hurt, they don't grow on trees, and such a move could provide the opening for the Galactica to escape a sticky situation. But strapping on a dynamite vest and walking into a Cylon bar? "Bugger, I got blown up. Well, let me crawl out of this tank, put on something slutty and we can resume at some other bar."

None of that made any context within the confines of the show, the writers just wanted to do something they saw in the headlines. Yawn. Might as well throw in stem cell research, teen pregnancy, female genital mutilation, and rants about Vista.

Re:preachy shows

[Grishnakh]

Galactica has been guilty of all of those. I gave up when they decided to do the whole Iraq occupation thing. For starters, settling on a planet makes no sense when your enemy is space-borne and can hunt you down. That violates sound military doctrine in the context of the show.

Oh, please. The humans weren't under military command, they had just elected a new civilian president, because he promised them he'd allow them to settle on this planet. They had been on the run for maybe 2 years at this point, and were weary of running. They thought this planet was undetectable by the Cylons (and they were correct, except for the radiation emitted by the nuclear blast).

In hindsight, it was a terrible decision, but it makes sense how people in that situation could have made it in the democratic system which they had. I think that was the show's point: giving people the power to elect their leaders doesn't always produce the smartest or most optimal results. In fact, it can produce disastrous results when the people elect politicians based on their pandering campaign promises which go against the advice of experts.

But for humans to suicide attack Cylons?

It's been a while since I saw the occupation episodes, but IIRC the idea wasn't really to blow up Cylons, since they obviously just resurrect in a couple of days. The idea was to 1) kill Baltar, who the humans saw as complicit with the Cylons, and 2) kill any other humans, seen as traitors, who were helping the Cylons (namely the New Caprica Police). Remember, at this point, the Cylons had decided not to continue with genocide, and were now trying to rule over the remaining humans for some reason instead of just killing them all. The insurgents were attempting to sabotage this effort.

Re:preachy shows

[robocrop]

"None of that made any context within the confines of the show, the writers just wanted to do something they saw in the headlines. Yawn. Might as well throw in stem cell research, teen pregnancy, female genital mutilation, and rants about Vista"

There's a show that covers all those topics with a nice browbeating liberal lecture - it's called "Law and Order SVU". You think BG is bad, SVU actually had an episode where they found 'justice' for an Abu Ghraib inmate.

Re:preachy shows

[Ardeaem]

But for humans to suicide attack Cylons? Again, it's one thing if you're talking about a Viper pilot pressing home an attack against a basestar. Losing a capital ship should hurt, they don't grow on trees, and such a move could provide the opening for the Galactica to escape a sticky situation. But strapping on a dynamite vest and walking into a Cylon bar? "Bugger, I got blown up. Well, let me crawl out of this tank, put on something slutty and we can resume at some other bar."
I don't know that it was common knowledge among everyone that they could resurrect so easily at that point. Also, people can be irrational. Suicide bombing isn't that effective in getting what you want here on Earth, either, but people still do it.

Re:preachy shows

[servognome]

For starters, settling on a planet makes no sense when your enemy is space-borne and can hunt you down. That violates sound military doctrine in the context of the show.

People often don't know what's good for them. Somebody preaches "we've found a new home" and the masses are happy, sound military doctine be damned.

Second, how do you apply terror tactics against an enemy who is effectively immortal?

Terror isn't about killing your enemy it's about shocking them. The cylons come to New Caprica offering peace and help because they follow "God", and the humans blow themselves up in response. It is something shocking & confusing - the humans deny the peace the Cylons are seeking to appease their conscience.

This is fiction isn't it?

[frogzilla]

The author may write the story in any way they wish. It doesn't even have to be logically consistent. Why is this not clear? The author may write to illustrate a political point of view. Do Americans see how critical this series is of the current perceived or real behaviour of the United States? It is filled with references to current events. In fact it's so heavy handed that sometimes it spoils the story for me.

Ultimately there are many motives that an author of fiction might have when they concoct a story. Entertainment and political commentary are just two that this show certainly illustrates.

This is exactly what you are supposed to think

[Britz]

In reality things are complicated. And what humans do is not always good. There is no black and white. No good and evil. Just shades of grey. At each step you have to choose what to do. And some of those decisions might not be the "right" ones. Whatever right might be.

The series is doing nothing more than exploring what humans would do in extreme circumstances. And I don't even think BSG is doing a very good job. After all it is entertainment (and it should be).

Re:Is BSG still relevant? Somewhat agree, but ...

[Grishnakh]

I cannot wait until the DVD for season 4 finally appears.

One problem you may not be explicitly stating, is that watching the show on SciFi channel, even a recorded version, inflicts too much pain. Whatever the quality of the show, the stupid, incessant and repetitive commercials alone destroy any show's worth. Add to that the junk thrown on the screen to distract the eye, e.g. upcoming shows you would not watch if you were paid to do so are the final unbearable insult.

Maybe you should check out BitTorrent.

There is a reason they call them toasters...

[The Other White Meat]

There have been a few BSG books written lately. In one they explain the reason they call them "toasters". Apparently, an appliance company started manufacturing self-maintaining appliances, that could monitor their own workings, call for service, etc. To make the manufacturing process easier, they standardized on a single processing platform across all of the machines. A hacker who wanted to test his AI algorithms on a LOT of machines figured out how to worm them into all of these appliances. It worked, a little too well. His distributed AI got enough horsepower to go sentient, and when they tried to shut it down it got mean. Before they knew it, all of their machines were going haywire, and any that could attack them did. The books aren't entirely clear, but it appears that the original soldier Cylons were actual maintanance droids, and didn't have sentience themselves, but the newbown AI used them as waldoes. And the rest is BSG history...

Would you like...

[greatscottsby]

Emmm, no. Or ... yes, i mean yes. Of course my name is ... what were you saying again ?
But, clearly, what I need is ... emm ... a nuclear ... warhead. I need a nuclear warhead, right.

nuclear wessels with that?

I Think You Miss the Point...

[rmckeethen]

I think, if you look beneath the SciFi surface of the series, that what the writers of BSG are trying to say is simply this; while our *instinct* is to utterly destroy those who would destroy us, our *humanity* should always be telling us that the proper course of action when confronted with a seemingly implacable foe is to find a way to convince them that the whole idea of solving their problems through violence is itself a bad idea. The struggle between Humans and Cylons in the series is essentially the same as any other struggle between two divergent cultures and/or social groups in our human world, groups that historically have often demonized each other and called into question if the 'Others' really are as human as we are.

You can clearly see this basic idea of 'Us' vs. 'Them' surfacing again and again at many junctures in the series. The Cylons, while initially purely mechanical in nature, are often and eloquently depicted as struggling to become more and more human all the time. They live, they die, they laugh, they love, they fight, they mourn, they invest enormous energies into learning how to procreate just as humans do -- the Cylons ceased being mechanical 'toasters' the moment they chose to mimic human behavior so closely that the difference between a humanoid Cylon and a real flesh-and-blood human became little more than a philosophical debating point between the survivors of the Twelve Colonies. Cylons *are* by now, it seems, exactly the same as humans, in virtually every way that counts

Consider -- while the Cylons have a markedly separate culture and a distinctly different religion than that depicted for the Colonials, yet similarities between the two groups are much stronger than the divergences. The Humans and the Cylons in BSG are not much more different than any other two human cultures that have struggled against each other throughout recorded history. The Humans to the Cylons in BSG are very much like the Axis to the Allies in our real history, or like the East to the West in more modern times; the Humans and the Cylons in BSG are, in essence, not much more than a new coat of paint on a very old idea, that of a collision of two cultures with very different ideas on how to divide up a territory they share.

Of course, once you understand this central point in the series, it's easy to see why genocide can't ever be the *right* solution for either side in the Human/Cylon conflict. If genocide were the appropriate answer, than it would be little different from the series writers saying that genocide is sometimes the correct response when two groups of humans come into conflict. Clearly, mass killing of your own kind isn't ever a good way to solve problems, and the writers of the series pound this point home over and over again in many episodes. This is why we see Helo go to such great lengths to sabotage Apollo's plan to annihilate the Cylons; Helo, through his relationship with Sharron, has come to view the Cylons as equivalent to humans. This is a key theme in the series, and we've seen a great deal of evidence over the course of the last three seasons of BSG to suggest that most of the other lead characters are starting to come to this same conclusion as well. Baltar believes the Cylons are the same as humans -- he believes so strongly that he even wonders if he might be a Cylon himself -- and Adama certainly has his suspicions too. Roslyn was ready to exterminate the Cylons, but she has the future of the human race to worry about, so genocide seems like a good idea to her, just as it has to many other leaders when confronted with an oposing group seemingly Hell-bent on their destruction. But Roslyn will come around in time... she must. Otherwise, we end up with a television series advocating genocide, and I can't imagine that's what RDM has in store for us in the last act of the show .

As the series moves into it's fourth and final season, I suspect these themes of Cylons being the same as Humans will become painfully, blindingly ob

Re:it's interesting to see Yeh, especially since

[davidsyes]

Just before snapping the infant's neck she said, "You won't have to worry much longer...", to which the baby's mother became uncomfortable but carelessly turned her back on Caprica 6.

But, that shriek was blood-curdling. The mood music the BSG team uses is A-J SPOT ON. Whether it's sorrow, triumph, charging to the fight, or being nose-bloodied, the music scores are awesome.

Humor (meant for the audience to consume) is right on, too. Recall when E.T. was an unknown, and Baltar was given conflicting orders by both Adama and Rosalind to test this blood sample, but neither told the other they were manipulating Baltar. It was funny when they two then (or earlier) suggested the other be tested FIRST. I won't spoil that. You just have to see it.

Another is later in Season 2 (I think, after Thrace has her cane) when Kara walks in on Baltar in his hip-grind (oh, yes, ohhh, yess) moment in the lab... Definitely, the major stations would cut that scene.

I liked when Cain and Adama battled over Adama's demanding the return of Agathon and Tyrol. It's so amazing how we can love Sharon, see others despise her, and have these two kill that prick "Cylon Interrogator" Lieutenant. I'd have belted/bolted his ass, too. There are some lines you don't cross.

I think the BSG handling of Human vs. Cylon/ God's hand vs. Man's Hand is expertly played. After all, just how sure can WE be that we are not a run-amok experiment produced by some advanced beings who have yet to come check up on us. "God" (in my mind, being an "absentee landlord/non-interventionist/distant observer"), for all we know, will allow humans to evolve to the point of creating sentient beings and then, 500 years from now, our descendants will look back at sci-fi and pity us poor, ignorant, selfish, stupid, human-above-all-beings arguments.

No human alive can prove having died and returned, so no human alive can posses (or is withholding) proof that "we are it."