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Guerrilla IT, Embracing the Superuser?

snydeq writes "First it's letting users manage their own PCs and now it's sanctioning the shadow IT projects they do on the down low: 'You probably know them. They're the ones who installed their own Wi-Fi network in the break room and distribute homemade number-crunching apps to their coworkers on e-mail. They're hacking their iPhones right now to work with your company's mail servers. In short, they're walking, talking IT governance nightmares. But they could be your biggest assets, if you use them wisely. The reason superusers go rogue is usually frustration, says Marquis. "It's a symptom of the IT organization being unable to meet or even understand the needs of its customers," he says. "Otherwise, it wouldn't be happening." The solution? Put them to work.'"

423 comments

  1. End users by dredwerker · · Score: 3, Funny

    You can't let the end user have any power. Just ask the BOFH ;)

    --
    On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, 1996
    1. Re:End users by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Funny

      Including electric power, of course.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:End users by dredwerker · · Score: 1

      Including electric power, of course. That will definitely stop any wifi hacks.
      --
      On a long enough timeline. The survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, 1996
    3. Re:End users by luigi517 · · Score: 2, Funny

      watch me:)

    4. Re:End users by smittyoneeach · · Score: 5, Funny

      I will knit an array of sweaters and overcome your fascism with static electricity!

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    5. Re:End users by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      Unless it is connected to their finger tips.

    6. Re:End users by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Unless it is connected to their finger tips.
      Go ahead, take your LARP! Strike me down! I will become more power than you can ever imagine! *cackle*

    7. Re:End users by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Live Action Role Playing? I think you meant LART... Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool ;)

  2. So, I get two salaries, right? by TheWoozle · · Score: 5, Funny

    Great...now I get to do IT's job for them. In addition to my own work. So, I'll get paid for all the extra time I put in working on an IT project, right? Remind me why we even have an IT dept. again?

    --
    Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
    1. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by garcia · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Remind me why we even have an IT dept. again?

      Depends on the company but generally because they were told to have one, not because the department itself operates well. Honestly, while I could fully be a "rogue superuser" I prefer to let them do most of their work because I just don't get paid to do what they get paid to do.

      Will I install applications, use applications and write applications as necessary to get *my own* job done? Yes. Will I go out of my way to do it so that others can do their job better? No. I am the first to tell someone who sends me an IM that asks, "Bill, can you come down and help with foo?" to go and submit an IT work order and wait it out. But I'm certainly not going to wait for them to come and fix my machine when I know full well I can do it myself without watching work backup for minutes, hours or days.

    2. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome aboard!
      I'd love to see some kind of spread for how much time I spent doing other people's jobs when there was nothing wrong with the thing, they just didn't know how to use it.

    3. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by docwardo · · Score: 2, Funny

      I just sent this article to my IT director and asked if she contributed to this article. This is basically what happened to me and they did put me to work, with an extra salary (albeit a small one since i'm only 10% IT)

    4. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. I'll generally deal with my own machine (up to a point) and will take full responsibility for any issues that might arise due to my actions. That said, if I encounter a problem, I'll do what I can to take care of it within the rights limits of what IT has given me. When I go beyond that I know that I'm on my own and can't particularly expect IT to fix it if I screw something up.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    5. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think most good IT departments are okay with allowing a certain amount of freedom. Where I work we don't give out admin logons, but we do allow some users to admin their local machine, and we do allow some users the privileges to do basic crap on other people's machines. If you have a guy who is willing and capable of doing annoying little changes for people and taking some of the headache off of the IT staff, more power to 'em.

      But that stuff should always come with a "screw it up, and you're going to have to fix it yourself" caveat. If you pick your people well, then they should be okay with that in the first place.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    6. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by phpmysqldev · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Will I install applications, use applications and write applications as necessary to get *my own* job done? Yes. Will I go out of my way to do it so that others can do their job better? No. I am the first to tell someone who sends me an IM that asks, "Bill, can you come down and help with foo?" to go and submit an IT work order and wait it out. But I'm certainly not going to wait for them to come and fix my machine when I know full well I can do it myself without watching work backup for minutes, hours or days.

      Agreed, it has been my personal experience that tier-1 help desk people are usually of the college intern type. While they may be knowledgeable overall it takes too much time to get things done. Why put in a support ticket, or proposal for a new software package when I can do my own fixes, write my own apps, or use a FOSS to get things done quicker and more efficiently.

      This is far different from giving me admin status over the network. I think it also boils down to tow different kinds of people, some of us were brought up on computers using best practices, doing things by the book, making sure things never go wrong, etc, but a lot of us were brought up challenging how things work, and trying to go against the technology staus quo. There will always be conflict between these two types.
    7. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by plague3106 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well your caveat only works to a point. How long would your department let him spin his wheels while work is not getting done? Who then gets blamed for the downtime? The power user or IT?

    8. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Xzzy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We did this at my employer, one of the departments decided they wanted to maintain their own desktops as a group. As no self-respecting admin actually enjoys taking care of desktops, we let them do it.

      It wasn't a total break, they're still subject to the site's security policies and their home directories still mount from an nfs server we maintain, but no one in our group has had to install a machine or fix a dead hard drive in 5 years. They understand their needs far better than I ever could, so it really was a win-win situation.

      It's worked surprisingly well, the admins are all volunteers from within the group, and they even maintain a batch system that all the workstations use for running jobs.

      If any company has a group of people willing to take on that kind of responsibility, I'd say it deserves serious consideration.

    9. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      You might as well... it's not like we're getting paid extra for doing everyone elses work.

      I can tell you just how much we love having rouge morons installing crap without any planning and then having that crap land in our laps.

      Any company that thinks they don't need an organized IT department that has control over the systems the company uses should try having no upper management for a while and see how that works out.

    10. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, they broke the machine didn't they? With privilege comes responsibility. The same would apply to me, if I hosed my development equipment...I've done it before, and it's just a cost of doing business.

      I'm in favor of allowing the leeway, but its a two way street. When someone like that screws their machine, it's usually not pretty, and it's not the sort of thing that can be easily fixed. I'm happy to restore an old image if you asked me to make one. I'm happy to recover files if it's possible.

      But I'm not responsible for rebuilding a machine that has been rendered non-functional by a user who insisted that he knew what he was doing. I always make this stuff clear when a manager requests these sorts of permissions for one of their people. We support the standard configuration, once you deviate from that, all bets are off.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    11. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Angostura · · Score: 1

      Actually, the caveat should be 'screw it up we'll sort ot out for you = but and you lose the privilege in future'.

    12. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      This is called the learning curve.
      There seems to be
      a) A refusal to admit that you everyone needs to learn stuff up to the level of their position
      b) A refusal to admit that intellecutally curious people tend to learn beyond their stated position, and could generate efficiencies that start to obviate some of the other positions in the organization.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    13. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by gruvmeister · · Score: 1, Redundant

      I'm an "IT" guy by trade. But unlike most, I'm an independent - I do contract work for a lot of smaller companies that don't need full-time IT staff. Being such, this 'superuser' is usually my favorite type of employee - one of the few people who will really understand what the problem is and be able to explain it beyond "my computer doesn't come up" (which can mean anything from the "computer doesn't actually power" on to "the Internet is down" to "I can't get into my 15-year old shitty accounting software package that even the publisher tells me is shit and should be upgraded but I'm too cheap to do so"). As long as the superuser understands their limitations, this is a dream come true for IT - they no longer get bothered with small bullshit like "My mouse is dead" or "Should I cancel this AVG/Symantec/Mcafee/Kaspersky/Whatever updater? Why does it come up every day?". However, it's a fine line between a superuser who makes things easier on IT and a 'superuser' who turns a simple problem into a nightmare something even Milton never could have imagined by overstepping their capabilities. One of the examples: setting up a Wi-Fi router in an office - a seemingly simple task that any monkey can do, and one that made the skin of every IT person reading this crawl. Sure, that new Wi-Fi device probably gave Joe Dipshit the freedom to roam about his 10x10 cubicle with his laptop now, but it's completely beyond his understanding that the IP addresses being dished out by that new router are already statically assigned elsewhere on the network, and that the presence of a new DHCP device on the network is going to cause havok all over the place. And the great thing is, this usually doesn't happen until the next day, when DHCP leases expire and machines start looking to renew. By that time, Joe Dipshit has forgotten all about his little 'IT project', and doesn't think it's relevant to the current network-wide outages that are happening, which naturally are guess who's fault. So that router stays tucked away in some random cubicle in Sales, not found for a day and a half while the entire organization is screaming at poor Bob in IT because he can't find the culprit. Wow... I am so glad I don't work for a big corporation. Superuser vs. 'superuser' - knowledgeable insider who can take care of day-to-day problems vs. overreaching tinkerer who is too arrogant to realize his limitations. Good luck with that :) All I know is that the more my clients fuck up, the more I get paid to fix their problems, so for me it's a win-win situation!

    14. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by gruvmeister · · Score: 1

      Eek, sorry for the wall of text. My paragraph breaks didn't work out so well apparently.

    15. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by pla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Remind me why we even have an IT dept. again?

      Because for every one of you, we have a hundred people who can barely manage to get around in MS Office, and most dangerous of all, three or four people who think they know computers (yet strangely manage to cause more restore-from-backup sessions that all other users combined).

      That said, if I didn't work in IT, I sure as hell wouldn't do the same work unrelated to my job description. Dealing with helpless coworkers without having it go into my pay or performance reviews? Not bloody likely!

    16. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I'm certainly not going to wait for them to come and fix my machine when I know full well I can do it myself without watching work backup for minutes, hours or days.

      Yea, that might impeed your ability to post on Slashdot.

    17. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      should try having no upper management for a while and see how that works out. .. I`m salivating just reading that
    18. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remind me why we even have an IT dept. again? Well, in theory, because IT is a concentrated area of activity that ensures that critical business assets are kept secure and backed-up in conformance to good business continuity practices. As opposed, to, say, having the one and only copy of a critical database disappear along with someone's laptop at the airport. Or get dropped off a luggage conveyor or confiscated by the TSA, or, or, or...

      In practice, it seemed like one of my major IT responsibilities was to try and convert something someone had hacked out of Excel and MS-Access after it had grown to the point where 5 people needed it at the same time and the data no longer fitted the 1GB Access database constraints.

      Except, of course, now it needs secure remote web access, Oracle, concurrency management, interfacing to the accounting and Federal anti-terrorist systems and a raft of other things. But hey, it can't be that hard. After all, some joe in dept X put it together in his spare time on the weekend. Piece by non-reusable piece over the last 3-4 years.
    19. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by huckda · · Score: 2, Insightful

      [i]says Marquis. "It's a symptom of the IT organization being unable to meet or even understand the needs of its customers," he says. "Otherwise, it wouldn't be happening." [/i]

      Actually in short...the reason is because IT are often understaffed, are required to follow ridiculous internal legislation, and many times are under-funded, and required to maintain a certain level of security...the latter of which is often BREACHED by these so-called power-users...which are nothing more than people wanting control over everything they do...

      Here's a news flash...employees are there to WORK FOR their employer...not themselves.

      --
      "Just Smile and Nod." --Huck
    20. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes this is the main problem with the concept of "embracing super users"

      At several companies people outside IT have floated the idea that there should be a departmental super user who people within the department can go to with issues. The idea being that a highly technical member of their department would understand their specific departmental tasks/duties/needs and be able to support them on "little or common" it requests.

      The reality is that this effectively makes that person a member of IT - and the sad fact is that typically they are not in a position to have proper access to all systems/passwords etc to solve issues.

      Aside from specific application support, its generally not a good idea to rely on Super Users to work on general IT issues.

      What really needs to be addressed is properly staffing helpdesks with the APPROPRIATE resource.

      This starts getting at the core of the problem within IT - Costs...

      99% of IT departments are not *embraced themselves* by execs - who only see a bottom line problem; IT departments spend money. Lots of it.

      Funding the correct resource in a department can be hard for small to mid size companies because they dont think a helpdesk person should cost them anything north of 50K, but the reality is that a quality baseline of skills is required in helpdesk.

      While I ahve exceptional people on my staff, often times they are underpaid given their skill set. I think a rockstar helpdesk person can be worth around 80K per year. But as their skills grow even furtehr they are likely to go and want to become sys ads and sr sys ads. These guys range between 80 and 110 / yr depending on specifics.

      Companies think helpdesk should be a lowly intern or some 45-50K person...

      This results in mediocre skills and more importantly -- MOTIVATION. Thus the hole of "IT departments unable to meet or understand..."

      budgeting for STAFF in IT should be spread as a cost to all departments. Each department should carry an expense for a portion of funding the pay of IT. Just in the same way they (typically, if budgeting is done correctly) share the load in the cost of capital projects.

    21. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed,

      I allow users to be a local admin or power user on their machine for two reasons:

      Important for me:

      1. We are STRICT about A/V and system updates.

      Important for them:
      2. Users often times (when given a laptop) start to use the laptop as their primary machine. They will use it to do their taxes, do all their online shopping/browsing/webmail etc. and use it for entertainment etc... It consumes too much of my departments time dealing with little complaints about apps like IM FTP webex etc...

      The user should have some freedom over their day-to-day environment.

      It is my job to ensure IT has done due-diligence with AV and filtering and *EDUCATION* on how to keep a machine clean for the users.

    22. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by BBandCMKRNL · · Score: 1

      Great...now I get to do IT's job for them. In addition to my own work. So, I'll get paid for all the extra time I put in working on an IT project, right? Remind me why we even have an IT dept. again? Users expect us to know their business better than they do so they can be button-pushers and not think about why something is done. I've worked at companies where IT has all the institutional business knowledge, because the business refuses to learn it and pass it on.
      --
      Without the 2nd Amendment, the others are just suggestions.
    23. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 1

      As one of those allowed to Admin his own machine I happy concur with the above and fully agree that if I screw it up I either fix it, or have to suffer the week old disk image and associated data loss from the automatic back up. Which is why I also have my own real-time shadow drive at my desktop (at my own cost). I'm also more likely to help the folks in my group with simple email server, printer drive or similar issues - why? Because as the director of the group (VP) I can often fix them and get them back on track faster than waiting for IT. This helps productivity and we achieve our daily goals faster - I'd rather see a time saving than sit around pretending that I'm that important that showing someone how to install a printer driver is below me. The big key to someone like me is that I understand my knowledge and limitations - I'm the first person to hear of a problem and know that IT should handle it. I'm not going to go in and stomp around the OS, again from a time perspective, it will end up being a waste of my time, IT's time and thus slow everyone down. I have a great relationship with my IT dept. and often get other things faster because I can help them out a little, but also know when to back off.

      --
      A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
    24. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by TheHorse13 · · Score: 1

      When I can find a superuser to make patch distribution work better via P2P than using Microsoft SMS, you can bet your arse that I'm putting that superuser to work.

    25. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Great...now I get to do IT's job for them. In addition to my own work. So, I'll get paid for all the extra time I put in working on an IT project, right?

      Remind me why we even have an IT dept. again? IT is really good at providing a network and workstations for you to work on.

      Getting inside your head to know what software to write, to help you be the trading assistant working for the high yield bond traders is a little tougher. It kind of takes an IT person with a financial degree and trading experience. A person with a financial degree and trading experience _isn't going to be a workstation monkey making half what they could otherwise_.

      The only way to know what those needs are is to ask someone who's too busy to give you the time of day, let alone help build requirements for the software you need.

      If you are such a trading assistant, and know how to program, who better to prototype the application? You are the only one that can possibly do a good job, not some guy with an MCSE cert that knows a lot of TCP/IP or some programmer fresh off the boat from Bangalore.

      The phrase "destined for failure" comes to mind. If you wrote a spreadsheet that did what you needed, that's a perfect blueprint for a full blown application. Your requirements are expressed in a working example.

      Then your IT staff can turn that into a reliable program with a database back end, and it will work far better than if you were asked what you needed and gave at most 25% of the important details.

      That is the single biggest problem and why projects fail. The requirements are never complete and nobody ever supplies the details you _really_ need until the application is built. By then it's possible for the additional details to completely break the project and require a refactoring, which blows away the deadlines.

      If it happens more than once, the project is often doomed.

      -AC
    26. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

      Did you reverse that on purpose? Because as I see it, IT always figures out the hard part of the users' jobs for them... and makes me wonder why we don't just have one big IT dept instead of all the other depts that have trouble thinking in an even slightly logical way.

    27. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Last week during a "software audit" my company's IT dept called me and made ridiculous assertions about security. I let them in on a secret - their own installations were the problem. So now I'm asked to teach them how to close the system up. LOL. Give me the extra salary and I'll do their job too!

    28. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, this rogue moron has to install stuff on his own, because our IT support department treats the development teams as if we don't know what we're doing, and applies the same policies for business users to us.

      How can I be expected to do my work, if I can't even install an IDE, because it doesn't fit the standard image they have?

      Anyway, it's more a problem in the structure I have here than anything else. I just wanted to state the point of view from a rogue moron.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    29. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Daniel832US · · Score: 1

      "Will I go out of my way to do it so that others can do their job better?" Actually that's what I was originally hired to do. I work in a large department in a large company and was hired as "systems support". It went pretty well for a time, until I started developing applications that people could actually use (without taking months to do it with two programmers and a project manager). I even tried working with the developers, but I could tell that some were ok, but others really didn't want me over there. The whole thing eventually blew up in a conference room with the department heads arguing over who would "control" my work. My boss got mad and said that I was getting out of the developing business and they could have it. Of course, when they wanted something, you know who they came to.
      I've gotten to the point that I don't want to develop software at work any more. I've got a more than full time job just managing the operations side. I decided to take my development "frustrations" out at home on a platform they don't use here (Java) and do something to benefit myself and other companies.
      It can be nice having the rogue superusers, but you have to be careful in how you treat them--don't rely on them for critical support unless it's their defined job and don't let your IT support badmouth them just because they're "not one of them".
      Just my .02 from someone who's lived it.
      openoak.com

    30. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by coastwalker · · Score: 1

      So how come the business need for this ghastly 1Gb prototype application hadn't been identified and slotted in to the IT departments project list. It wouldn't be because they are all too busy sucking up to the ERP project so that they get skilz that will pump their income up beyond human comprehension would it?

      Simple fact is that for a variety of reasons the IT department is often too busy elsewhere to find and cater for all business needs. The business needs the innovation of superusers because they are at the coal face and can see what they are. Too many businesses are missing out on a whole raft of creativity and innovation because they assume that the IT department has it covered.

      Glad to hear that your IT department recognizes this need and that you get to convert some nasty prototype into something industrial strength and almost immortal. Sounds like you work for a smart business. Though it sounds to me more like you are jealous of the superusers because they only have to build prototypes whilst building industrial strength is hard hard hard. Keep up the good work :-)

      --
      Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
    31. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Chode2235 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here I always thought it was the servers, data infrastructure, advanced developmental work, and systems design and implementation.

      Workstation management for all the companies I have worked for has been a PITA for us 'business users' who need to get things done.

      I think in general they take a much to hands on approach which ties our hands and takes their time. I am glad that they are finally recognizing that people can take care of themselves a little bit.

      Now if only we could have our own coffee pots.

    32. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by jaseuk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed, it has been my personal experience that tier-1 help desk people are usually of the college intern type. While they may be knowledgeable overall it takes too much time to get things done. Why put in a support ticket, or proposal for a new software package when I can do my own fixes, write my own apps, or use a FOSS to get things done quicker and more efficiently.

      From the other side, the problem with people just like you is that when you leave, your replacement will not be hired for his ability to write apps or use FOSS. So the IT department will no doubt get a call from your now irrate manager or replacement demanding that IT support your systems.

      I've seen this so many times within my own organisation, departments or teams have their IT guy who have historically done all the IT for them, doing a fine job of it. Then they leave, then the IT department have to pick up where this person left off, inevitably requiring a time consuming migration back to the corporate standard systems. If this arrangement is fully supported by appropriate management such that the replacements job requirement is such that they should have appropriate IT knowledge, the problem with this is that you were probably a 1 in 1000 candidate, finding a qualified competent solicitor (or whatever) who knows drupal inside and out is pretty rare.

      Jason

    33. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by phpmysqldev · · Score: 1

      I've seen this so many times within my own organisation, departments or teams have their IT guy who have historically done all the IT for them, doing a fine job of it. Then they leave, then the IT department have to pick up where this person left off, inevitably requiring a time consuming migration back to the corporate standard systems. If this arrangement is fully supported by appropriate management such that the replacements job requirement is such that they should have appropriate IT knowledge, the problem with this is that you were probably a 1 in 1000 candidate, finding a qualified competent solicitor (or whatever) who knows drupal inside and out is pretty rare.

      This is a very valid point and i think it is one reason why requirements for most jobs are going up. For instance many positions (in all roles in an organization) are listing preferred requirements including: relational database experience, basic web design experience, pc troubleshooting, etc, even when these dont have to do with the essential job function.

      Now whether this is for better or worse is still open for discussion
    34. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by hypergreatthing · · Score: 1

      So.. explain to me why people hire computer illiterate people again? If your job requires you to use computers, then by gosh, make sure they have some level of competancy?

    35. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure sure, And you should also recieve a bonus for the insights you give to slashdot readers on a regular basis during work hours.

      and lets not forget the all important. "yes I'm a superstar" aka the ol tooting your own horn bonus.

      You're wecome! -Anyonymous IT dept coward.

    36. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Well, this rogue moron has to install stuff on his own, because our IT support department treats the development teams as if we don't know what we're doing, and applies the same policies for business users to us. At one of the MAJOR development houses I worked for, when asked by the marketing department for a snippet of code to use as ART to put on the box of a retail software product, the developer gave the marketing department code that would have allowed anyone in the world to log into our software development R&D server as administrator over the internet (with addresses, username and password included)... and yes, it made it onto the box and was sitting on the shelves of every major software retail shop in the free world.

      At another we caught one of our development managers selling trade secrets to our competition.

      At another I watched an engineer smoke a computer and an O-scope because he didn't know the difference between black and white.

      So... why should you be treated any different? ...and even if YOU should be treated different who's to say the guy sitting next to you should be?

      How can I be expected to do my work, if I can't even install an IDE, because it doesn't fit the standard image they have? That's a matter to be discussed through proper channels isn't it? You wouldn't want an IT guy changing what you're working on without telling you would you?
    37. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by mstahl · · Score: 1

      What you ought to do is fix the computer, because that's your job, and just note to yourself that the user screwed it up and should no longer have such access. Idly telling them to fix their own computer defeats the entire purpose of having you around and just prevents other people from getting their work done. That is the primary purpose: getting work done. I just don't understand this weird office politics bullshit where people point fingers and blame each other rather than getting their work done.

      Seriously the IT department's job is to manage stuff like this. Being a sysadmin and all-purpose IT guy for a tiny tiny company, I fix my users' computers when they break. It doesn't matter who broke them, if anybody. A couple of times I've had to ask a user not to do what they just did that hosed their system again, but then again that rarely happens because I don't tell users to administer their own machines. That's my job, not theirs, after all.

    38. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by lgw · · Score: 1
      I'm trying to see you point here, and just failing. There are idiots in every line of work, no doubt. But if a company sells software, making the job of the guy who writes the software harder in order to make the data janitor's job easier just makes no sense at all.

      At a software company, your job is either:
      • Write software
      • Sell software
      • Overhead
      In any business, if you're neither creating nor selling the company's product then don't get uppity.
      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    39. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Ced_Ex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So basically what you're saying is that at every major place you've worked at, you've had an idiot. You know what, we've all had a few of those, and for some of us, some of those idiots were in the IT department.

      You ask why I should be treated differently? I am under the assumption that they hired me for my specialty, and that I have a base knowledge of what I'm doing. If the IT department fails to give me to tools I need, how am I suppose to be effective?

      I'm advocating tiered access. You can't just blanket a development shop with a business area and hope everyone will be happy. We have different needs and technical expertise. What is a development shop supposed to do with a base installation? You can't develop things using a text editor. And you definitely can't develop web applications if you can't setup a web server somewhere. Nor can you submit change requests to IT everytime a small setting needs to be changed.

      IT department can't just lock things up and say, "Well, we did our job, the system is locked up tight, nothing will go wrong."

      All they've really done is lock up the place, and prevent any legitimate work from taking place. Granted, your job is done, but at the expense of everyone else's job.

      Sure, I wouldn't want an IT guy changing the development I'm working on, but at the same time, I wouldn't release an application to a client with the system locked and unable to accomplish what it was initially intended to do.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    40. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

      SOX based IT Controls have a lot more to do with human discipline than simply electronic lock down.

      Here is a story about unammed very large defense contractor I worked for:

      (These guys have the most strict latop/desktop policies I have seen)

      Their employees would go to a vendor in taiwan and they were only allowed to transfer information between certain systems at the TW vendor site and corporate machines via USB keys so that no networking was taking place (modern day sneaker net) as there were active atacks coming from unnamed asian power house.

      Even though they were at a 3rd party vendor and USB keys was only transfer vector - the asian country had compromised the TW vendor systems and installed trojans that specifically targeted USB keys as they knew unnamed contractor laptops were passing data via this vector...

      The point is; Being a lockout nazi on all systems does not give you that much more security. The best security is arrived through a balance of user behaviour education and reasoned thought out computer security and maintenance... The problem is that the correct way to do this takes a lot more resource than the lazy ways...

    41. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Wow! The IT doesn't generate revenue argument... how unoriginal and the reason that developers have the reputation of being prima donnas. I assure you, I generate revenue... and I have the paperwork to prove it.

      It's very few people that would suggest that asking a question of management and then respecting their answer is outside of their job responsibilities... or, at least, it should be.

    42. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      No, your not doing it right.

      When you screw up your supposed to blame the crappy computers which the IT dept set up.

      Of course you take all the credit when you do something well. :)

    43. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      So basically what you're saying is that at every major place you've worked at, you've had an idiot. You know what, we've all had a few of those, ...and those idiots, simply by their actions, had the ability to directly affect every aspect of your job every day to the point of directing your actions, priorities, policies and budgets?

      and for some of us, some of those idiots were in the IT department. Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of the majority of IT people myself.

      You ask why I should be treated differently? I am under the assumption that they hired me for my specialty, and that I have a base knowledge of what I'm doing. ...and the members of IT shouldn't be working under the same assumption and treated with the same amount of respect you expect?

      If the IT department fails to give me to tools I need, how am I suppose to be effective? The IT department isn't responsible for giving you tools... YOU are responsible for requesting and justifying the tools you believe you need and getting them okayed by your company's management.

      I'm advocating tiered access. You can't just blanket a development shop with a business area and hope everyone will be happy. We have different needs and technical expertise. What is a development shop supposed to do with a base installation? You can't develop things using a text editor. And you definitely can't develop web applications if you can't setup a web server somewhere. Nor can you submit change requests to IT everytime a small setting needs to be changed. I completely agree... and there should be policy and procedure in place that allows for that. "IT said I couldn't, so I did it anyway" is no way to run a business.

      My current development team, in fact, has complete control over their development servers... and the complete responsibility for what they do to them.

      Believe it or not when they occasionally screw something up I even help out to fix it.

      IT department can't just lock things up and say, "Well, we did our job, the system is locked up tight, nothing will go wrong."

      All they've really done is lock up the place, and prevent any legitimate work from taking place. Granted, your job is done, but at the expense of everyone else's job. Again, I agree. But "I do what I want and screw them" is not how you fix that issue. Doesn't your company have any managers?

      Sure, I wouldn't want an IT guy changing the development I'm working on, but at the same time, I wouldn't release an application to a client with the system locked and unable to accomplish what it was initially intended to do. Nor would I... but that's not the point.

      As an IT guy I can't answer a question I wasn't asked... and if I was asked and said no then you go up the food chain to someone you think might give you the answer you want. I assume there's at least one person of authority in your company whose orders you would follow if they gave you one?
    44. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by pla · · Score: 1

      So.. explain to me why people hire computer illiterate people again?

      Because companies still think of most jobs in old-school terms, despite the irrelevance of most traditional office skills.

      Consider an accounting-oriented job (AP/AR, for example) - Most companies would hire someone with 10 years experience and "some" computer experience (ie, can read email with the clicky buttony thing their nephew set up on the desktop) over someone with basic accounting skills who can make Excel sit up and beg for mercy - Yet, in the modern office, the latter could work circles around the former.

      Until that changes, and computer literacy becomes no less important than English literacy (or whatever lingua Franca you prefer), companies will continue to pay me to help coworkers get through tasks that we geeks consider comparable to helping someone read "See Spot run. Run, spot, run!".

      And believe me, I sincerely wish more people could maintain their own machines. As another user responded to my previous post, I far prefer dealing with "servers, data infrastructure, advanced developmental work, and systems design and implementation". But all that means Jack as long as people still need my help just to figure out how to leave an away message in Outlook for the 14th time.

    45. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, I'm a CIO and a former CIO of two different organizations over the past 15 years. I'm one of the guys hired to "fix things" that other CIOs break. I've posted here before about using "superusers" to advantage. 'Nuff said.

      The reason this topic pops up so often is that many times users are unconstrained compared to their IT counterparts. There are, of course, many different kinds of qualifications and comparisons, but I'm going to generalize just as the previous posters did.

      Without formalized problem and resolution tracking and formalized processes for support, IT is completely ineffective. While some superusers are able to take care of themselves, the vast majority are not, and are more likely to cause problems than IT staff. I've sat through a good deal of meetings where I got to hear all about how IT messed something up on some user computer or subnet, just to find out that some departmental superuser did one of the following:
      - started a rogue DHCP server on a 500 node subnet, but only configured it for 16 addresses and the wrong default gateway, which of course took the rest of the subnet down for a couple of hours,
      - started a file server for local sharing because of more "control" over permissions, and promptly downloaded malware, by accident I assume, which touched off an ARP storm that took down an entire 2,000 node campus for an hour till we could track it down (how many hours of productivity lost there?)
      - carried in a trojan from home on his flash drive, which got past our virus detection because it was disabled on his computer (by him) to "enhance performance," and which then proceeded to wipe all drives he had access to, including large volumes on the network, requiring hours of d2d restores,
      - "fixed" a problem with a regedit, thereby breaking an entire office suite (ratted out by the person who lost a day's work),
      - and more...

      I don't have any problem doing forensic analysis and passing those reports on to supervisors. I've seen a few people fired or reprimanded, and I've done the same to some of my own staff when appropriate. Anyone that causes the organization countless hours of recovery time should be prepared to suffer the consequences. I would categorically refuse to give any administrative access to any user that thinks he's too good to work with IT, but I would willing hand out some abilities to those that work with us and communicate with us.

      As far as supporting the users around the superuser? I'm all the time hearing "superusers" brag about how they showed someone else how they do something new and different with their computer. It's all about bragging rights to many of them. Well, with that goes some responsibility - you started it with them by showing off, don't make us come up there to fix it when you showed someone how to break it. Or when you do something to fix a problem that causes 2 more.

      There are, of course, exceptions to every generalization. It's exceptionally hard to find a really good superuser who is really a superuser and not just a hack gamer-come-superuser that can actually make things run well ALL the time.

    46. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Techman83 · · Score: 1

      We let end users do this to a point. Local Machine is fairly open slather for the user, AV/Anti Spy/Mal needs a password to be unloaded/uninstalled and it's on don't screw it up basis. If windows has reached it's lifespan no worries, give it an image, if it's died because someone wanted some cool screen saver/smilies then the right to self admin is revoked. As ultimately IT gets given a hard time when user X can't do their work, even if it is user X's fault.

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    47. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by lgw · · Score: 1

      I'm curious how you generate revenue. Most IT departments these days are contracted out, so of course they generate revenue for the contract company, but I doubt that's what you meant. Perhaps you decrease operating costs, and thereby increase the bottom line?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    48. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      No, when you screw something up, you're supposed to go and make a cup of tea after asking a guy to come look at foo for you, then blame it getting boned on him.

      Make sure it's on CCTV.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    49. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      I'm curious how you generate revenue. Most IT departments these days are contracted out I wouldn't say most.

      so of course they generate revenue for the contract company, but I doubt that's what you meant. No, I think consulting is a four letter word. In my experience contracted IT means someone comes in, does a half-assed job with no regard for the future, collects their money and leaves. I'm sure there must be good IT outsourcers out there but I have yet to work with one.

      Perhaps you decrease operating costs, and thereby increase the bottom line? TCO/ROI is all part of it but I also design and put custom systems in place to satisfy the needs of my company's clients.
    50. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by jwo7777777 · · Score: 1

      ...It's exceptionally hard to find a really good superuser who is really a superuser and not just a hack gamer-come-superuser that can actually make things run well ALL the time. And the corollary: It's exceptionally hard to find a really good IT person who can balance the needs of the business with the needs of humans and make things run well ALL the time. It is as political a job as they come.

    51. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Yes, if your company sells IT services (directly or indirectly), then you're in the "create the product" and not "overhead" bucket, at least while you're doing *that* work. Conversely, "in-house" developers are often in the "overhead" bucket, which is why those usually aren't the good dev jobs.

      My point was that "create the product" work will generally be given high priority within any health company over "overhead" work, and making the "create the product" job harder in order to make the "overhead" job easier is not the path to success.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    52. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by lgw · · Score: 1

      s/health/healthy/

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    53. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      making the "create the product" job harder in order to make the "overhead" job easier is not the path to success. So you aren't able to communicate your needs to your management or abide by their directions?

      Doesn't sound like the issue is with IT to me.
    54. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if the so called "superuser" was worth a sh*t, he or she would already be a system admin. Superuser my a**, i'm the one with the almighty root password and its in your best interest to remember that. The only good reason that I can see for advocating rogue IT projects is to identify the idiot lusers who think they know too much so that they can be thoroughly LARTed.

    55. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Oh, in my career, this works fine: I tell my boss "WTF is IT smoking, I'm not putting up with this", and my boss says "just ignore it". Don't get the wrong impression, my boss isn't going up the ladder or negotiating with IT: he's just betting that IT lacks either the resources or the power to actually enforce the policy, and is willing to take the heat if he's wrong.

      He's also making the right decision: his boss doesn't want to hear about the needs of the devs unless and until IT puts their foot down and proves they care. The whole scenario that dev would explain their needs to some executive VP or CEO, and the CIO would eaplain the costs, and that person would make an informed decsion, is somehting I've never seen in my 16 years in the industry. The decision would be made based on what group is seenas more important to the company, or which VP is the CEOs golfing buddy, or some other arbitrary criteria, except it never happens in the first place because both gorups have better things to do.

      IT makes arbitrary decisions to make their job easier with no concern for how it will hurt users, because that's easy. Dev in turn ignores these decisions with no regard for how it will hurt IT, confident that they can win the fight if it comes to that, because that's easy. Occassionally Dev is wrong and IT wins the fight (with their battle of "Sarbanes-Oxley says we have to", but that's been so over-ussed these days it now lacks power). Never is a cost-benefit analysis done.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    56. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Oh, in my career, this works fine: I tell my boss "WTF is IT smoking, I'm not putting up with this", and my boss says "just ignore it". Don't get the wrong impression, my boss isn't going up the ladder or negotiating with IT: he's just betting that IT lacks either the resources or the power to actually enforce the policy, and is willing to take the heat if he's wrong. Then your boss is part of the problem and your IT department is incompetent.
      All the tools needed to monitor and lock down a network are freely available.

      IT makes arbitrary decisions to make their job easier with no concern for how it will hurt users, because that's easy. Your IT deparment might do that, but we've already established that they're incompetent.
      IT decisions should never be arbitrary. I'm lazy, if I don't have a reason to do something I don't do it.

      Never is a cost-benefit analysis done. Wow! Perhaps your entire company is incompetent.
      I have to justify everything that I do and I can. ...of course I also work closely with the people I support in an effort to balance security, organization and freedom.
    57. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by lgw · · Score: 1
      Well, maybe one day I'll meet the fabulous "competent IT dept" - that would be pretty cool. My entire career, however, has seen incompetent (even malicious) corporate IT, partially compensated for by IT guys who reproted into dev management and really helped out a lot.

      This statement is false, however:

      All the tools needed to monitor and lock down a network are freely available. At least in the context where the network users are developers, you can't lock things down without reducing network functionality below what most corporations would accept. For example, I work with a team of Windows kernel developers who know the network stack and have lots of back-channel connections with Microsoft. You'd be amazed at the shit these guys get up to when they're bored for half a day and annoyed at some IT tool. SMS is really fighting outside of its weight class here.
      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    58. Re:So, I get two salaries, right? by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe one day I'll meet the fabulous "competent IT dept" - that would be pretty cool. My entire career, however, has seen incompetent (even malicious) corporate IT, partially compensated for by IT guys who reproted into dev management and really helped out a lot. I've worked with three teams I would call competent in the last 20+ years. I'm currently working for a company where the ratio of end-users to IT people is 300+ to 1 (that's network, servers (windows and several flavors of *nix), phones and third-party systems... none of it outsourced). If we weren't competent there's no way the company would still be in business.

      I've also seen what you're talking about. Which is why I'm trying to make the point that turning the work environment into a war doesn't help the issue. I think you'd be surprised how far a little respect goes with the average IT guy, because they so very seldom see any. In IT you're only recognised for your last failure... if you're doing your job well people should think you're not doing anything at all.

      Then there's always those sterotypical IT guys... I give them the opportunity to go work for someone else.

      This statement is false, however:

      All the tools needed to monitor and lock down a network are freely available. At least in the context where the network users are developers, you can't lock things down without reducing network functionality below what most corporations would accept. I wasn't suggesting it wouldn't affect functionallity... simply that it exists.

      For example, I work with a team of Windows kernel developers who know the network stack and have lots of back-channel connections with Microsoft. You'd be amazed at the shit these guys get up to when they're bored for half a day and annoyed at some IT tool. SMS is really fighting outside of its weight class here. I wouldn't be too amazed... I've worked with some unquestionably brilliant Windows and Unix developers over the years...

      and don't even get me started with SMS.

  3. Superusers? by wild_quinine · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Yes, they're end users. But they don't sound like customers. They sound like employees.

    In which case they should toe the god damn line, because they're fucking shit up for other people.

    Yes, enterprise IT can be frustrating. But your cheeky little wifi hack maybe just took down three buildings of network, resulting in thousands of dollars of lost productivity. Actually happened, in my org - 100% true story.

    I don't like meaningless limitations any more than the next guy, but these know alls who think they're 'superusers' because they can set up a wifi network need to lay off - they don't have the big picture, they just think they're being clever. Guerilla? Arse-scratching chimp, more like.

    1. Re:Superusers? by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      Why should people do that at work anyway? Those types are like the annoying dicks in class who distract the instructors with unrelated questions just to show the rest of the class how smart they are.
       
      "Wow, look what you can do. We get it, you're smart. You want a pat on the head too?"

    2. Re:Superusers? by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      "Wow, look what you can do. We get it, you're smart. You want a pat on the head too?" Basically, guerillas belong in a zoo, where the above comment is satisfyingly appropriate.
    3. Re:Superusers? by diamondsw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they're truly breaking things, this means your network is so poorly designed that they are even capable of it. Get off your BOFH horse and do a decent job before yelling at people who are just trying to do their job reasonably.

      My mother's laptop takes over 5 minutes to boot because of all of the scripts and login items the company forces her to run. This is not an uncommon occurrence because the various shit also prevents it from waking from sleep about 50% of the time. It's so locked down she can't install anything - not even a driver so she can plug in her company-supplied Sprint EVDO card for remote access. Nope, she has to drive into the office (about an hour away) just so they can pop in the card. Need to change an IP setting for the home wifi network? No-can-do (truly, the firewall and VPN cannot be trusted against the awesome power of the home LAN...). Maybe use something secure like Firefox instead of IE 5.5 (yes, 5.5!). Nope, can't install it. Use a USB memory stick to copy a file? Nope.

      "Enterprise IT" policies are almost always to make IT's life easier at the expense of the end user. Now who was supposed to be supporting whom?

      --
      I don't know what kind of crack I was on, but I suspect it was decaf.
    4. Re:Superusers? by techpawn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Those types are like the annoying dicks in class who distract the instructors with unrelated questions just to show the rest of the class how smart they are.
      I'm not doing it to show the class how SMART I am; I'm doing it to show the instructor where I'm LACKING. If we're covering a section that I already understand and I can tell we're near the end but I have a question about the topic that isn't high level, ones that's more specific to my real world problems that forced me to go to a class, how does that make me a dick for asking. If I'm in a class I'm there to get the most of the instructor as I can. The books can be found online for cheap, their experience in real world problems can not.
      --
      Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    5. Re:Superusers? by wild_quinine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If they're truly breaking things, this means your network is so poorly designed that they are even capable of it. I knew someone would come back with a smart comment like this, but I'm not yet jaded enough to include disclaimers in my posts. For your benefit: the wifi router in use was very poorly designed, using some horrific bridging tricks. Shutting down three buildings was actually an automatic fallback, to protect our larger network.

      "Enterprise IT" policies are almost always to make IT's life easier at the expense of the end user. Now who was supposed to be supporting whom? Now this is exactly what those chimps with their cheeky tricks believe. But in any decent organisation, of which I'm fortunately part, the people at the top really do care about supporting users, to our own convenience. It's our job, so we get it done. And nothing gives us greater satisfaction that a system that runs for the benefit of its users.

      The job is supporting users, and that's what we do.

      And that just precisely means making decisions about what can and what cannot safely be allowed in certain circumstances, and the sheer size of the operation means not being able to turn on a dime if somebody wants a completely different config. That's the way it is. We're not being unhelpful, we're making sure you don't butcher things for every other person in the zone by being a smartass.

    6. Re:Superusers? by wild_quinine · · Score: 1

      the people at the top really do care about supporting users, to our own convenience it should be noted that i meant 'to our own inconvenience'. Damn typo.

      As in, we make life worse for ourselves by making it better for the users, but in as much as it is a good idea, we still do it. It's our job, and it satisfies us to do it well, even if that's not a beach holiday.

    7. Re:Superusers? by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, they're end users. But they don't sound like customers. They sound like employees.
      In which case they should toe the god damn line, because they're fucking shit up for other people.

      Yes, enterprise IT can be frustrating. But your cheeky little wifi hack maybe just took down three buildings of network,
      resulting in thousands of dollars of lost productivity. Actually happened, in my org - 100% true story.



      My IT department is fine - I don't see them but once or twice a year and my computer works well enough. But a similar problem to the one you described occurred at the college I'm working on my PhD at. (I heard this story second hand, might be an error or two, but I trust the source) The engineering department wanted WiFi in the building in order to hook up the conference rooms and let students use wireless in the classroom. Seems simple enough, especially in this day and age. A formal request was made. And rejected by IT. Random bitching and moaning. So after a few months of inaction, the engineering department installed a few routers themselves, under the radar.

      See, the problem is when IT gets in the way of business. IT is a service, not an administration. So when it starts acting like one, with bureaucracy, with stupid shit to get stuff done (a friend of mine, engineer in another company, had to wait three weeks (!!!) to get an approved, paid for compiler he needed installed on his laptop???) then yes, we go under the radar to get work done, which might I remind you is why we get paid. Apologies in advance if we ever cross paths.

    8. Re:Superusers? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      So... A little innocent wi-fi hack crashed network in several buildings?

      That's a good reason to do an audit of your network structure. It should not be that easy to crash.

      And if they are that flaky - just imagine someone hostile trying to bring down your network.

    9. Re:Superusers? by element-o.p. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I had a dollar for every person that called me because some "superuser" installed a test piece of equipment on my network (against company policy, incidentally) and screwed something up, I'd quit right now and retire in the Caymans.

      I've seen rogue DHCP servers assign duplicate IP addresses on our network, I've seen rogue DHCP servers assign IP addresses from a different network on our LAN, and I've seen (multiple times, from the same "power user") two ports on a DSLAM plugged into my production network cause a broadcast storm. After the first time, we turned on Spanning Tree; the second time, it only took down the equipment connected to his SOHO switch.

      The parent post is right -- just because you can connect your two Windows computers at home up to a WiFi network doesn't mean you are qualified to be a network administrator in an Enterprise network. If you'd rather be an IT system administrator, then take the steps to become one; don't try to subvert your corporate IT department just because you think you can do it better.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    10. Re:Superusers? by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 1

      Note that I said "unrelated questions". Say, hypothetically, we're in a Java class: if you're prattling on about destructors and pointer arithmetic then you are wasting our time -- it's like, "Wow, you know about a feature in another programming language, you must be an elite haxxor". The problem with some know-it-all chumps is that they take time away from those who have questions and want to actually learn something from the answer. One can be a know-it-all without having to prove it all the damn time.

    11. Re:Superusers? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Then you probably aren't the person the parent post was talking about. There's nothing wrong with asking a question about applying the material you are learning to the real world, *if* it's a legitimate question, and you are asking so you can learn something.

      The parent post was talking about people who already know the answer and are asking questions just to show how insightful they are. I've seen it, and it's annoying.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    12. Re:Superusers? by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Or worse yet, try to imagine the damage that could have been done if the network had stayed _up_.

      If the idea of some yo-yo thoughtlessly bridging your internal network out to everyone in a three hundred metre radius just because he thinks that the blue patch cable clashes with his new Ferarri-red notebook doesn't make you reach for a baseball bat then maybe corporate IT isn't for you.

    13. Re:Superusers? by Tesen · · Score: 1

      Going rogue is never a good option, you're often left with a less than satisfactory implementation of what you're trying to accomplish and if the powers that be discover your existence, either you're fired or your project is canned with no chance of appeal (that becomes spite on Corp IT's part). If you're also careless you will take down other systems like you describe.

      I used to work in an environment where each business unit had their own IT support groups, rolling back up to Corp. IT. We were a manufacturing firm and for the most part, those that were making the decisions up top had no concept of what we did or needed in the business units (how could they?). The issue is, whether those up top are willing to learn about the business.

      I was a rogue operative, even inside my own team in my own IT group in a sub business unit; I was the guy pushing pulling legacy data via MQ-Series, instead of via FTP each morning so we could get real time production data as it was entered in our legacy systems. I was the guy pushing using SSRS with SQL Server to deliver snapshot reports each morning, while still allowing the users to view the reports in real time. I was the guy that was given a mission to eliminate as much manual process in reporting as possible (i.e.: We have 15 people doing reports, we don't need 15 people doing reports... please write code to fix this). The strategy I was using was having the leaders of your department or business unit push what they need for you. If you're a lowly programmer or end user, no one is going to listen if you go it solo (I found this the hard way). But if a director of your department, starts talking with IT with you or for you, telling them we are trying to accomplish a goal you need their assistance on Corp. Systems side, then things will happen. If your unit lead has no desire to do this and you are the only one trying to affect change, then perhaps it is time to leave and find another job - some places simply will not innovate or have no desire to look at new things until they are forced to.

      Tes

    14. Re:Superusers? by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 0
      Hm...

      The job is stepping on users' faces while they're drowning under an ocean of work, and that's what we do. There. Fixed that for ya. Oh... not finished

      And that just precisely means making arbitrary decisions about what can and what cannot safely be allowed in our one-size-fits-all circumstance, and the sheer size of our ego means not wanting to turn on a manhole-cover if somebody wants a completely different config, even if merited. That's the way it is. We're not being helpful, we're making sure you don't butcher things for us in the IT department by your attempt at being practical. There. That reflects real-world experience.
      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
    15. Re:Superusers? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      We just use VPN even in internal networks.

      Problem solved :)

    16. Re:Superusers? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If the idea of some yo-yo thoughtlessly bridging your internal network out to everyone in a three hundred metre radius just because he thinks that the blue patch cable clashes with his new Ferarri-red notebook doesn't make you reach for a baseball bat then maybe corporate IT isn't for you.

      If you properly segment and firewall the network, then this problem is limited in scope.

      You can't prevent this sort of thing anyway, because of internet connection sharing/NAT.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re:Superusers? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

      Yes, they're end users. But they don't sound like customers. They sound like employees. In which case they should toe the god damn line, because they're fucking shit up for other people.
      Nice! You have management potential. Keep up the good work.

      But your cheeky little wifi hack maybe just took down three buildings of network, resulting in thousands of dollars of lost productivity. Actually happened, in my org - 100% true story.
      I think that says a lot about your companies Wi-Fi network. Not good. Maybe the "IT" department needs some remidial eduction. You've got the management skills, give it to them!
      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    18. Re:Superusers? by Aqualung812 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Enterprise IT" policies are almost always to make IT's life easier at the expense of the end user. Now who was supposed to be supporting whom?

      Actually, both are to be supporting the company. IT does not answer to the end user, they answer to the shareholders, the CEO, board, and the regulators. Supporting the end users only applies if it will support the company to do so.

      BTW, if end users can be trusted with admin rights, then why do botnets mainly exist on home user's computers? Those same home users will allow their work computer to be infected if mean old IT would let them.

      --
      Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
    19. Re:Superusers? by JakiChan · · Score: 1

      If they're truly breaking things, this means your network is so poorly designed that they are even capable of it. Wrong answer. A rogue AP can easily bork your wireless network no matter how well designed. That's how radios work. A rogue DHCP server can really hurt your users (at least on that VLAN) - that's how DHCP works. I've seen both happen from the same box. No real way to design around it (unless you get to do cool things like 802.1x with certs *and* passwords but most companies won't go that far).

      "Enterprise IT" policies are almost always to make IT's life easier at the expense of the end user. No, they are set up to allow the company to meet it's requirements - ones that you may not understand. Until you sit through a 404 audit or other similar even you have no idea.
      --
      "Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
    20. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Let's start with the name "Rogue Super User". No such thing. Why?

      First, a "Super User" is an oxymoronic term. I'd use "Intelligent User" or "Educated User", but since my own local breed of that group trashed his laptop this weekend and dropped it off on my desk to fix, those two terms stick in my throat. Perhaps "Emboldened User" wold be acceptable.

      Second, a "rogue" is someone who cannot be kept in line or operates outside of the norms of the organizations. Since any User who installs apps on their PC is technically "rogue", this would imply that all users fit into this category since any brain-dead git off the street can install the Yahoo! tool bar. Doesn't quite make them "Super" though, does it.

      Begin with a better term than "Rogue Super User" and maybe I'll listen, until then, be gone with you.

    21. Re:Superusers? by michrech · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Where I work, we have an automated scanner process that scans the ports looking for known access points. When found, the port is automatically disabled (keeping the rest of the network functioning). When we discover a wireless network on campus that didn't get detected, we start doing remote probes to identify it, add it to the config for our automated scanner, and go from there.

      As to what's being used, specifically, I couldn't tell you. I just know I've seen the trouble tickets when they pop up. I'm in "Client Services". The Network Services team is responsible for what I described. :)

      BTW -- There is no need for students/faculty to be installing AP's as the campus is fully saturated. Yes, there are weak spots, but if the students/faculty even bother to report it (something we have a huge issue with, in some buildings), we add AP's or adjust/change antennas to correct the issue.

      So... A little innocent wi-fi hack crashed network in several buildings?

      That's a good reason to do an audit of your network structure. It should not be that easy to crash.

      And if they are that flaky - just imagine someone hostile trying to bring down your network.
      --
      bork bork bork!
    22. Re:Superusers? by element-o.p. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Spoken like someone who's never worked in IT :rolleyes:

      Yes, there are companies where the IT personnel are on a power trip, but IME, that's the exception rather than the rule. Most of the time, IT's policies are put in place for a reason. We don't want to make your life any more difficult than it needs to be. But when some "superuser" with a super-ego decides to circumvent IT policies by taking data home on a thumb drive, and then loses the drive or posts the data on-line for some reason, we get a mandate to keep it from happening again. When a user connects the company laptop directly up to their DSL or cable modem at home, contracts a new virus that evades the A/V software's detection rules and infects the network, then we take steps to prevent users from connecting to any network we don't control. And when we find our users installing games and P2P software, then we take away the ability to install anything on company laptops unless you can show that you have a bona fide need to do so.

      You gripe that "Enterprise IT policies are almost always to make IT's life easier at the expense of the end user." Yeah, maybe. Sometimes it's true. But how long would it take you to change your tune if *you* were they guy getting called out on the carpet because a virus took your network down for two days? How many times would you let a user install rogue DHCP servers on your network before you decided to configure your switches to only allow certain MAC addresses to use given ports? How many times would you give out administrative access to anyone who asked for it, if your users kept breaking their computers because they didn't understand what they were doing?

      Quote: If they're truly breaking things, this means your network is so poorly designed that they are even capable of it.

      Are you serious? Your entire post is criticizing IT for doing exactly that! Yeah, we can lock down a network so that no one can break it, but to do so, it would be locked down so much as to be entirely inflexible. Your example of your mother's laptop is what happens when an IT department doesn't trust it's users, and therefore tries to build a network so that it can't be broken.

      Quote: Get off your BOFH horse and do a decent job before yelling at people who are just trying to do their job reasonably.

      If that's all that our users were trying to do, you'd find the network wasn't nearly so restrictive. However, I've seen field techs delete all of the company-provided software so that they could install Quake 3 (no, I'm not kidding...). I've seen users copy warez on the file server. And consequently, I've seen network administrators take away admin rights and block ports on the corporate firewall. The problem is that *most* users play be the rules, but the ones that don't get the IT staff in trouble with management. Therefore, we lock things down so it can't happen again.

      There *has* to be order in any society or it becomes unstable and falls apart. In the corporate enterprise network, IT is responsible for creating and maintaining that order, and therefore, IT implements the policies that are necessary to keep the IT infrastructure operating smoothly. Not everyone likes those policies, but believe me, you'd like it a lot less if they weren't there.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    23. Re:Superusers? by cbart387 · · Score: 1

      One of the biggest issues at my school is the fact that IT is totally understaffed. This causes them to look in incompetent. In fact, they had consultant come who said the exact thing. Not saying this is the case for what you're talking about, but I just wanted to throw that out there because there are always two sides.

      --
      Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    24. Re:Superusers? by superyooser · · Score: 1

      I am not a chimp. *smirks*

    25. Re:Superusers? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      People love the "We installed WIFI ourselves and all was joyous" stories. But you never hear the, "We installed WIFI ourselves and breached security on the network/ate up all the DHCP addresses/allowed a guy with a trivial WEP breaking program to sniff everyone's network passwords" story.

      There are very good reasons why WIFI can't always be installed. No one ever wants to hear it, but it's true. If all you need is internet access, it's trivial. If you need access to secure servers, it is substantially more difficult.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    26. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      See, the problem is when IT gets in the way of business. IT is a service, not an administration. So when it starts acting like one, with bureaucracy, with stupid shit to get stuff done (a friend of mine, engineer in another company, had to wait three weeks (!!!) to get an approved, paid for compiler he needed installed on his laptop???) then yes, we go under the radar to get work done, which might I remind you is why we get paid.


      Go under the radar.. fine. You've probably got a shop with EEs, CSs, or CEs in it, not civil, mechanical, aerospace or other types of engineers. I can attest that aerospace and mechEs are fatal in many cases because they think they know more than they do due to that fatal engineering flaw: I'm an engineer, so I know it all.

      Apologies in advance if we ever cross paths.


      No apologies needed. If I don't notice you, you've done it correctly. If I do notice you, you'll be looking for a new job with the distinct possibility of a civil suit to boot.
    27. Re:Superusers? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      That must be some blazing fast connectivity you've got there. VPN is great for remote users, but in most environments the performance hit is prohibitive.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    28. Re:Superusers? by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      The engineering department wanted WiFi in the building in order to hook up the conference rooms and let students use wireless in the classroom. Seems simple enough, especially in this day and age. A formal request was made. And rejected by IT. Random bitching and moaning. So after a few months of inaction, the engineering department installed a few routers themselves, under the radar.

      The obvious questions is: why was the request denied?
      While having wireless is convenient, it's not critical to getting work done. It sounds like they had a functioning network, but they just couldn't be bothered to run a cable or two. It may be that the IT department either didn't have the money or resources to do it correctly at that time and didn't want to half-ass it. It takes up a lot less resources and creates a lot less frustration in the long run to plan it out and do it correctly the first time, than to half-ass it and then be forever fixing it, only to finally redo it the right way in the end; which usually takes up more time because you now have to plan for a transition as well.
      Implementing wireless in a secure and controlled fashion means a bit more than just hooking up an access point and hoping for the best. Just off the top of my head, you have to think about interference to and from other devices in the area. Having multiple access points configured in an area to overlap and provide a seamless network. And, <insert deity here> forbid that there is actually some sort of security to keep non-university traffic off the network. As we all know, Universities love to have their bandwidth consumed by random people in the area/driving by downloading porn and running bit-torrent clients.
      Also, with the politics at a University, you can bet that as soon as one department has a wireless network, every other department will be whining day and night about why they don't have one yet, so it isn't just one department to worry about, it's all of them.
      But to fuck 'em, we want our wireless network and we want it now, and IT is just being bitchy and acting like a bunch of spoiled kids with a little bit of power. They don't have the best interests of the University at heart, they just want to be lazy and not give me what I want now.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    29. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Actually, both are to be supporting the company. IT does not answer to the end user, they answer to the shareholders, the CEO, board, and the regulators. Supporting the end users only applies if it will support the company to do so.

      Is there some way for IT to support the bottom line without supporting the end users? What might that be?


      BTW, if end users can be trusted with admin rights, then why do botnets mainly exist on home user's computers? Those same home users will allow their work computer to be infected if mean old IT would let them.

      Some of the lockdowns I have seen on corporate PCs are not much better than a botnet infection. Why are so many corporate PCs infested with IE? My home LAN is a hell of a lot safer than my work environment. I'll stack my Linux box, Mac Book, and XP running Firefox against your "secure" spyware farm of IE 6 pre-bots any day of the week
    30. Re:Superusers? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Performance hit is noticeable only on copying large files over gigabit network.

      Modern CPUs are fast enough for IPSec and our Cisco routers use hardware-accelerated encryption.

    31. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regarding laptops, it could be worse. ING Direct, the online banking giant, completely prohibits laptops in their offices. Which is, of course, a very smart thing to do when you need absolute security.

    32. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, there are companies where the IT personnel are on a power trip, but IME, that's the exception rather than the rule. I wish that were true, but the heavy hand of counterproductive IT is the source of the venom you see in this discussion. Bad people impose too many rules and whimsical policies. Therefore all rules and policies are bad.

      I find it hard to believe that we are faced with all of these security and audit concerns, armed only with Windows PCs. We should have stuck with mainframes and terminals.
    33. Re:Superusers? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Use a USB memory stick to copy a file? Nope.

      Please. Suppose your mother could copy her file "Names, SSNs, and other bits of employee data.xls" onto her thumb drive. Suppose she then lost it. The entire company would get in trouble. And everyone on /. would vilify them.

      Maybe there's a way to allow encrypted only memory sticks, but unencrypted? I think not.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    34. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said... not much more to say.

    35. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that *most* users play be the rules, but the ones that don't get the IT staff in trouble with management. Therefore, we lock things down so it can't happen again. The answer isn't as extreme as either of you (you or the GP) think. The answer is actually rather simple.

      Use the tools you're given. Create a Problem Users group. Put problem users into it. Problem users get the ultra-locked-down-nazi version of IT's services, while everyone else gets the benefit of the doubt and a written company policy giving details of what is and is not allowed. (Which also serves as a warning of what will and will not get you on the Problem Users list.)

      This hybrid approach allows full control when necessary, but allows relative freedom for those that don't rebel outright against company policy.
    36. Re:Superusers? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, there are companies where the IT personnel are on a power trip, but IME, that's the exception rather than the rule. Most of the time, IT's policies are put in place for a reason.
      As someone who has worked on both sides of this fence, I have to say many IT policies are put in place to make life easier for the admins, not the end-users. And, yes, sometimes there are very good reasons for these policies, but not always.

      The problem is that in any company, there are groups that genuinely need solutions that are different somehow from what the rest of the company is doing. Typical IT thinking is that if it doesn't fit in their cookie-cutter one-size-fits-all mentality, then it's not needed. The cookie-cutter model is great for probably 80%-90% of your userbase, and therefore is a success for those 80%-90%.

      OTOH, for the other 10-20%, I've seen situations where groups needed a either a COTS app that needed heavy customization and therefore didn't fit the model or a custom app that IT organizations aren't always equipped to develop in-house. So they throw one of their project managers on it, who outsources the IT work to contractors, and then IT steps in and says "Whoa! That doesn't fit into our cookie-cutter model!" cries "skunkworks!" and immediately tries to get the project shut down.

      Except, here's the thing: the need for the custom app or customized COTS app commonly generated by a legitimate business need. That's why upper management often approves the skunkworks project without IT's approval and when IT tries to shut it down, things might get ugly as different factions in upper management duke it out.

      The bottom line is that IT needs to do what they do, but if they aren't addressing a legitimate business need and the users are going outside to get the legitimate business need met, well they need to step out of their box and act like a solutions provider and not like a bunch of rent-a-cop droids.

    37. Re:Superusers? by everphilski · · Score: 1

      People love the "We installed WIFI ourselves and all was joyous" stories. But you never hear the, "We installed WIFI ourselves and breached security on the network/ate up all the DHCP addresses/allowed a guy with a trivial WEP breaking program to sniff everyone's network passwords" story.

      I don't disagree. My point was, IT is a service, and when they stop becoming a service and start becoming a beaurocracy then you have stuff like this happen.

      There are very good reasons why WIFI can't always be installed.

      On a college campus? Where the students are charged several hundred bucks a semester in "IT fees" and then can't use their notebooks on campus? I'm curious to hear it.

    38. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two words: office hours. The problem is that the other twenty four people in the class, paying the same tuition, don't care where you're lacking any more than they care how smart you are. They're there for the credits and the curriculum, not the curriculum as suited to techpawn.

      Just go to the prof's office hours. I used to go to office hours of profs whose classes I skipped. Turned out that 4 out of 5 times, they were totally cool with it. One or two of those four would even hang out and bitch about distracted-off-topic students. Lay off the individuality, dude. There are other people in the world, and there isn't enough time in a semester to deal with all of them... hence lectures.

    39. Re:Superusers? by The+Angry+Mick · · Score: 1

      "Enterprise IT" policies are almost always to make IT's life easier at the expense of the end user. Now who was supposed to be supporting whom?

      People could try communication.

      If someone thinks their access is too restrictive, there's nothing stopping them from talking to IT to see if they can find a better way. If IT refuses to respond, or is handcuffed by a company policy, then the argument needs to go to upper management, and the policy can be reviewed. If satisfaction proves still elusive, then either go a level higher, or acclimate to the restrictions at hand - someone important obviously feels they are necessary.

      Ignoring the communication stage and going it alone is just plain abuse.

      --

      I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.

    40. Re:Superusers? by raddan · · Score: 1

      Important question: Did the IT staff deny access because there are unprotected services on the university LAN? The engineering department's stunt may have just created a security vulnerability on your campus network.

      Of course, none of us really know the real story, since we're all hearing it {2nd,3rd}-hand. Maybe they really are a bunch of idiots.

    41. Re:Superusers? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      I'm curious to hear it. Then I suggest you ask the people who made the decision.
      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    42. Re:Superusers? by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      All of the problems you mention happened because some nitwit set access up instead of IT (or else IT is full of nitwits). If wireless isn't in the budget, you don't trust users to keep security keys secret, or you simply don't want just any machine connecting to the network, then fine. But whining about implementation issues that only occur when somebody who doesn't know what they're doing sets it up just makes you look incompetent.

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
    43. Re:Superusers? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Welllll, since the post I was responding to was from a guy talking about how people had set up WIFI covertly after IT had denied their request, I don't see how it's me whining rather than me pointing out issues that might have been a problem with an unauthorized install.

      Speaking just for myself, I agree with you, there are a lot of ways to do it right.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    44. Re:Superusers? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      I disagree.

      IT is failing, but not in the way you claim. IT's failure is in successfully communicating *why* things are the way they are, IMHO. In the company where I work, most of our users gripe at us when we first implement a policy. Then, when we answer their complaints with a calm, logical and reasoned explanation for why the policy was necessary -- and how they should accomplish the tasks that are impacted by the new policy -- they usually go "oh, okay." It doesn't hurt that they also know that we will rescind any policies that prove to be too much of a burden.

      However, when IT implements a policy without explaining why the policy was necessary, then people view IT as a roadblock to getting their work done, which of course makes people angry.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    45. Re:Superusers? by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      That's not a bad idea, and to some extent we are doing it where I work right now. Friday, we locked a particular problem user's network port to only allow HTTP, HTTPS and Telnet past our firewall.

      But like I said above, there is a limit to how many times the IT staff will let users break things before they decide to lock it down for everyone unless you can show that you need an exception. The reason for that is that there is a limit to how many times my boss will ask me why the same problem happened with yet another user before he cans me. But you're right -- it's a good tool to use when possible.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    46. Re:Superusers? by JrOldPhart · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile that contractor you hired is still waiting to install the application he wrote for your business unit.

      --
      Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
    47. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that *most* users play be the rules, but the ones that don't get the IT staff in trouble with management. Therefore, we lock things down so it can't happen again. How about giving your users proper training on how to use the tool you gave them and then hold *them* liable for damage they cause by messing things up?
    48. Re:Superusers? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Use a USB memory stick to copy a file? Nope.

      Please. Suppose your mother could copy her file "Names, SSNs, and other bits of employee data.xls" onto her thumb drive. Suppose she then lost it. The entire company would get in trouble. And everyone on /. would vilify them.

      What business does she have storing that file on her laptop in the first place? Sensitive data should stay on a server and never touch something that can leave the company premises.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    49. Re:Superusers? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      People love the "We installed WIFI ourselves and all was joyous" stories. But you never hear the, "We installed WIFI ourselves and breached security on the network/ate up all the DHCP addresses/allowed a guy with a trivial WEP breaking program to sniff everyone's network passwords" story.

      There are very good reasons why WIFI can't always be installed. No one ever wants to hear it, but it's true. If all you need is internet access, it's trivial. If you need access to secure servers, it is substantially more difficult. That's what happens when IT refuses to actually do their job. The only reason to refuse something like this is budgetary or technical (can't pay for it, can't do it). WIFI is neither - you either set up open access or you put up WPA for the wifi access. If you need secure access, there are solutions that work just fine, but this is a college - you probably just want internet.
      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    50. Re:Superusers? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      You're speculating. It's an engineering building; maybe someone upstairs is doing experiments and wants to minimize possible interference.

      I'm just saying that without knowing why the request was denied you can't say that putting in WIFI was a good thing, or that the IT department was dropping the ball.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    51. Re:Superusers? by patchvonbraun · · Score: 1

      I used to work in the IT division of a large hi-tech company. I worked there for 14 years, and one of the reasons I was happy to leave for a more R&D-oriented job in the same company was the increasingly-draconian "policies" that IT was promulgating. It made me sick.

      The notion of "you may only installed approved software" only works if IT has a *very solid* handle on what it is that its customer population *does* with their computers. In a high-tech company that's full of hardware and software developers, it's rather clear that IT doesn't stand a gnats chance in hell of ever appropriately modeling what constitutes "legitimate" software and "illegitimate" software.

      The policies have gotten so bad that even writing your own software, for your own use, on your own machine, is a violation of the "approved software only" doctrine. In a sense, modern IT departments have redefined what constitutes "useful work" to that which can be accomplished using the usual M$ triumvirate of applications. Which is a profound testament to the growing idiocy of technology-driven corporations particularly, and society in general.

      To paraphrase the oft quoted "information wants to be free"--Computers Want to be Programmed!!!

    52. Re:Superusers? by hazem · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sometimes rogue is the only way to go, especially when the IT organization is huge, monolithic, and anything but "IT at the speed of business".

      In our situation it was also a reporting issue. Basically we (I) were tasked with doubling the number of countries we reported for. The process in place already required 2 full weeks of work (often with lots of unpaid overtime). The work couldn't start until the end of the month and had to be done by the 15th. Adding new people would have been stupid and it wasn't an option anyway. We were put in a position that if we "followed the rules" we'd either end up working 20 hour days for 2 weeks, or we'd simply fail to get our work done.

      Our corporate IT group was willing to consider a more automated database solution... but after 4 months of meetings they wanted millions of dollars and said it would take more than two years to complete. This was a non-solution.

      We then, with the help and advice of another "rogue" developer in the company, went to an external local company who built a very nice solution for $25k. Not only were we able to handle the doubled reporting workload, the actual workload itself went from 2 whole weeks each month to just a few hours a month. We did another round of development, spent another $25k, and folded in two other very time-consuming and error-prone processes into the tool (they only happen 3 times a year).

      A few months ago I ran into the IT director that helped propose the multi-million solution and he asked how we were doing. I told him we got a great solution and he asked me to schedule a meeting to show him what we came up with. When the meeting was over, he basically picked his jaw up off the floor and expressed how amazed he was at by the tool and how disappointed he was that the IT organization in our company (a Fortune 500 BTW) couldn't accomplish anything even close to it.

      To be fair, our IT organization is very good at huge capital improvement projects that take years to complete. Unfortunately they have no capability to support more tactical solutions that help keep the business going until the big project is going. They are unable to grasp the idea that sometimes you need to make temporary bandaid solutions that will be discarded when "big project xyz" is done. "It's just a waste of money and resources" is their usual response - but they seem to have no concept that the business is hampered and profits are not earned because the lack of any tool, even a temporary one, inhibits the business. You don't need to buy a car to get from the airport to work - sometimes it's okay to spend money on a taxi. IT wants to tell us we can't take the taxi because they're building a car for us - we just have to wait at the airport for 2 years or walk.

      But as you suggested, we had buy in from our own director (who was able to shake loose the money for the rogue development) and ultimately, the VP in our "chain of command" is pleased - the quality of our reports has improved dramatically (because we eliminated so much manual work) and we're able to support the additional countries, along with even more detailed/graphical reports.

      There are some in the IT group that don't like what we're doing. But my response to them is always, "Let me know when you can provide us a reporting system that does this, this, this, and this and we'll be glad to switch to it". "Oh, well, we can't do that, that, and that..." and they then leave us alone.

    53. Re:Superusers? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Of course I'm speculating - this is slashdot. Also, the department did this, so my assumption is more likely.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    54. Re:Superusers? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      What business does she have storing that file on her laptop in the first place? Sensitive data should stay on a server and never touch something that can leave the company premises.

      If users thought things through that well there wouldn't be a need for 90% of IT regulations.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    55. Re:Superusers? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Users, nothing! They shouldn't be able to get that data there.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    56. Re:Superusers? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      You never know. I've had bad wifi experiences where there was no budget to do it the right way and serious concerns about doing it the wrong way, and they went ahead and did it and caused a shitstorm that went all the way to the network overlord for our half of the country and caused a bunch of draconian policy shifts which EVERYONE hates.

      That was an issue with access to a protected network, but still...Sometimes you just can't get what you want.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    57. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I work for a much larger company - IBM. And while there are standard builds that most people use just fine (with administrator access), anyone is free to build their own system with whatever they want - they just can't call the help desk for obvious reasons. I have coworkers running their laptop in a VM, beta versions of Notes, what-have-you. Others run a vanilla build. It's up to them.

      Hasn't seemed to cause much death and destruction here, but maybe we just know what we're doing. *shrug*

    58. Re:Superusers? by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      They shouldn't be able to get that data there.

      I agree. I meant that a lot of the "restrictive" IT policies are because people want to do stupid stuff like that. If you could trust your employees not to be dumb, you wouldn't have to restrict that data. But since you cannot...

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    59. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly, we don't have any of the nonsense you posted at IBM (300,000 seats), and things run smoothly.

      Standard builds have admin rights, and anyone can build a custom system if they want. The only requirement is that basic security standards be met (firewall, anti-virus, hard disk/login password, and local DB encryption). After that, you're free to do what you want. And things work.

      But when some "superuser" with a super-ego decides to circumvent IT policies by taking data home on a thumb drive, and then loses the drive or posts the data on-line for some reason, we get a mandate to keep it from happening again.

      Which you should know is impossible. If you're connected to the internet to do your job, then data integrity is always going to be a concern - it's a human problem, not a technical one, and if you're treating it as a technical one you're going to fail. And make users' lives hell in the process. If you're really in a super-secure site (such as FBI, NSA, etc), then you will have a completely physically separated internal network and computer from your internet-connected systems, and lock down the internal one but good. But somehow I doubt you're coming from such an environment.

      a virus took your network down for two days

      I'm not saying everything is wild west. Antivirus and a firewall is a good example. Now if you're running those and your network is still taken down then yes, I'm looking at you, who created the network and set the AV/firewall policies.

      only allow certain MAC addresses to use given ports

      I can only imagine how small your organization must be for something like that to be feasible - how on earth are you going to track and manage all of that, especially with hardware refreshes, repairs (NIC or motherboard dies), etc? Seriously, I thought the idea of locking MACs to ethernet ports died ages ago.

      rogue DHCP servers on your network

      You're going to the trouble of using MAC address control, but still using DHCP... *boggle* We do use DHCP at IBM, and I've never seen or heard of any such issues.

      I've seen field techs delete all of the company-provided software so that they could install Quake 3...I've seen users copy warez on the file server...we lock things down so it can't happen again.

        There's a better response than lock down everyone's system to deal with one person - you fire that person. I can't count the number of asinine policies I've seen enacted to deal with one screw up, because no one wants to actually reprimand someone for it. You're once again confusing a human problem with a technical one.

      There *has* to be order in any society or it becomes unstable and falls apart. In the corporate enterprise network, IT is responsible for creating and maintaining that order, and therefore, IT implements the policies that are necessary to keep the IT infrastructure operating smoothly. Not everyone likes those policies, but believe me, you'd like it a lot less if they weren't there.

      And that I completely agree with. I would tend to agree with the grandparent though, and say many such policies go too far and end up causing more problems than they solve. But that's my perspective on support.

    60. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      USC ISD?

    61. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you serious? Your entire post is criticizing IT for doing exactly that! Yeah, we can lock down a network so that no one can break it, but to do so, it would be locked down so much as to be entirely inflexible. Your example of your mother's laptop is what happens when an IT department doesn't trust it's users, and therefore tries to build a network so that it can't be broken.

      No, there's a difference between making a network that can't be broken and making a network that can be broken so easily you need to install software on its clients so that they can't do the things that break it. Christ, that was badly written. You are advocating treating the symptoms of the problem - putting so many restrictions in place that the glaring holes in the network are covered up. He is advocating treating the problem itself - fixing the bloody network! And if you take a restrictions based approach without fixing the fundamental problems, then, surprise, when someone gets around the restrictions they can break the network.

    62. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry dude but he's right. I've been on both sides of this issue. IT specifically implement lock down for their own benefit, no matter how much it pain it causes the users. IT sees lock down as way more important than usability. I don't blame them, it makes their job cake.

      I think this is one of those issues where you and other IT people are having trouble being in someone else's shoes.

    63. Re:Superusers? by waferbuster · · Score: 1

      IT works for the CFO in our company. They are not considered value added. Their turnaround time is measured in months, due to the hoops they have to jump through. The guy I share a cube with and myself basically fell into the role of providing end-user support and development. The department bought a couple of servers, and we do simple little applications and webpages on them. Tying together diverse SQL/Oracle/Postgresql databases, mining data, and providing output that's meaningful to the folks who are actually value-added to our process means that we save millions of dollars per year.

      Recently we asked IT to upgrade one of their applications, with a list of specific items. Their ETA was >6 months. My cubemate was able to whip out the changes in a few days, run them through integration testing in a week or so, and technical reviews in another week or so. There are times when the IT process is appropriate, and other times when skunkworks is definitely the better method.

      --
      I'm an individual! Just like everyone else!
    64. Re:Superusers? by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      At my previous employer, we had no wi-fi network, because between hardware and a properly supported solution, it would have cost money that the business did not want to pay.

      And one day, one of our users had the bright idea of grabbing a wireless router, and plugged it into the network.

      We noticed pretty quickly, because his router DHCP server was issuing (invalid) IP addresses on our network.

      But our corporate lan being broadcast without any form of protection whatsoever across the carpark was really not something we're overly appreciative of.

      *shrug*.

      IT isn't about yes/no nazism. It's about relative cost vs. relative utility. Anything you add to the IT portfolio costs money. Sometimes it's only a bit of admin time. Sometimes it's more heavyweight because there's legal or security constraints. Sometimes you can even hide some of these costs by getting a 'free' admin to do it.

      But the costs are present, and the business has to pay for them. If the benefit outweighs the cost of doing it right, then it's something that gets implemented.

      I'm sure you wouldn't be too suprised though, to find that the 'cost' associated with some things, include a rather large amount of hidden overheads that the end user never really considers. Something as simple as 'more disk space on a server' tots up:

      • Physical disk (high end disk costs more than the average SATA drive you get in a PC)
      • Raid overhead
      • Backup server capacity
      • Tape library capacity
      • Server capability
      • Network infrastructure (both primary usage, and backup)
      • Network Bandwidth
      • WAN Bandwidth
      • Monitoring and reporting
      • Additional power and heat consumption
      • Disaster Recovery site bandwidth
      • (And all this list again, for the DR site).
      That adds up to quite a bit more than the £/Gb you get on your home PC SATA Drives.

      Monitoring and reporting

      Additional power and heat consumption

      Disaster Recovery site bandwidth

      (And all this list again, for the DR site). That adds up to quite a bit more than the £/Gb you get on your home PC SATA Drives. Some of them you can 'hide' (I mean, when you have one box under a desk, you may not notice the power and aircon bill). Same's true of software, or other random hardware on your system to a greater or lesser extent.

    65. Re:Superusers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Actually happened, in my org - 100% true story."

      That sentence pretty much guarantees it's bullshit.

      You're a liar.

    66. Re:Superusers? by The+Yuckinator · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you've never had a 2nd, unwanted DHCP server on your network before? Try it sometime - it's loads of fun. Better yet, try it when someone sets it up w/o telling you where it is or what it's doing.

      Step one: Determine that your network problems stem from the fact that there is another DHCP server handing out addresses on your network.

      Step two: Find it.

      Like I say, LOADS of fun.

    67. Re:Superusers? by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      We use static IPs :)

    68. Re:Superusers? by everphilski · · Score: 1

      I was responding to your comment,

      There are very good reasons why WIFI can't always be installed. No one ever wants to hear it, but it's true

      If it's so true, I'm sure you won't have any problems explaining it to me, now will you? I'm too many years and too far removed from the people and situation at my university, but you claim to understand so why don't you tell us what you think now?

    69. Re:Superusers? by arnwald · · Score: 1

      >But when some "superuser" with a super-ego decides to circumvent IT policies by taking data home on a thumb drive, and then loses the drive or posts the data on-line for >some reason, we get a mandate to keep it from happening again.

      Right, so use a _stupid_ technical control to fix a people problem. How will your blocked thumb drive stop people from sending that data via an email or a site ?
      I know, maybe your department should stop people sending emails ! That'll keep it from happening again !

      T.

      --
      My other sig is Funny.
  4. Don't agree by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "It's a symptom of the IT organization being unable to meet or even understand the needs of its customers," he says. "Otherwise, it wouldn't be happening."

    I don't think that's true. Lots of people just want to screw around with things and get an ego boost out of flouting authority or trying to show-up the IT staff. You know, there's always going to be that guy who wants to install games on his PC, and figure out how to tunnel past the porn filter. Maybe it's because he wants those things, but also it's because he gets a kick out subverting the rules. Either way, it doesn't mean the IT staff isn't doing their jobs.

    1. Re:Don't agree by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't think that's true. Lots of people just want to screw around with things and get an ego boost out of flouting authority or trying to show-up the IT staff. You know, there's always going to be that guy who wants to install games on his PC, and figure out how to tunnel past the porn filter. Maybe it's because he wants those things, but also it's because he gets a kick out subverting the rules. Either way, it doesn't mean the IT staff isn't doing their jobs.
      Perhaps, and sometimes like many things in life, the one size fits all, thou shalt do it only one way philosophy means that people are less productive, I've worked in shops were the monitor res. was set to 800x600 and god help you if you bumped it to 1024x768 or used smaller fonts to get more than 18 lines of text on a screen. So corp. IT is like everything else there are the anti-social dicks, and there are the people who bend the rules to get shit done.

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
    2. Re:Don't agree by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      >it doesn't mean the IT staff isn't doing their jobs.

      That's exactly what it means. Neither preventing people from installing games or preventing people from browsing porn is IT's job.

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    3. Re:Don't agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And for every person who knows what they are doing there are 50 who THINK they know what they are doing and end up leaving a mess for IT to clean up.

    4. Re:Don't agree by Stradivarius · · Score: 1

      Either way, it doesn't mean the IT staff isn't doing their jobs. It's possible for the IT staff to be doing their jobs and still be unable to meet the needs of their customers. Many IT organizations have limited budgets and personnel, so they have to focus on the things they can get done with the manpower they have. But there may still be many needs that can't be met within those limits. That's especially true for small tasks that may be very important to an individual but not so important relative to other bigger projects.

      I don't think that's true. Lots of people just want to screw around with things and get an ego boost out of flouting authority or trying to show-up the IT staff. I can't speak for everyone else, but in my experience most of the time when people are screwing around with things it's because they have a need that's unmet. Most of us don't have time to waste doing something just to get some immature pleasure from messing with IT. And if IT is working well, such that they're viewed as allies rather than obstacles, most people won't have that desire anyway. That's not to say there are never bad apples - there are. But most of the time people aren't trying to be jerks, they're trying to get their job done.

    5. Re:Don't agree by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      And lots of us are trying to get our job done without IT constantly getting in our goddamned way and making life a huge pain in the ass.

      Over two years ago, I was tasked with developing an internal website (employees only) for my agency, with a few simple apps (like a master calendar). I knew when management said it had to go through IT that it would never get done. It took me a few weeks to design the website and all the scripts (wouldn't have taken me that long if I could have done it in php instead of asp). I then spend the next 2 years fighting with the IT department to actually get it on one of their servers. They still haven't got it working (even after wasting a ton of money hiring consultants to set up a simple webserver with an ldap client). I doubt they ever will.

      Many of us superusers hate our IT departments for good reason. Some IT departments won't lead, won't follow, and won't get the hell out of the way. They're just an obstacle that never helps, only hurts.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    6. Re:Don't agree by FatMacDaddy · · Score: 1

      Actually, those are specifically spelled out as part of IT's job where I work. And people do indeed get fired for violating policies along those lines.

      --
      This space intentionally left blank.
    7. Re:Don't agree by gruvmeister · · Score: 1

      >it doesn't mean the IT staff isn't doing their jobs. That's exactly what it means. Neither preventing people from installing games or preventing people from browsing porn is IT's job.

      Maybe not in your company, but in just about any other workplace you can bet that IT has gotten directives from higher up to at least make an attempt to block superfluous web usage (yes, that means The Boss doesn't believe that YouTube or MySpace or FindAFuckBuddy are necessary to get your job done) and other activities that waste the company's time (games? unless you work for a game review company, you're probably not getting paid to play games at work).
    8. Re:Don't agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Lots of people just want to screw around with things and get an ego boost out of flouting authority ....

      An IT worker is saying this.

      Pot meet kettle. Kettle meet pot.

    9. Re:Don't agree by michrech · · Score: 1
      Unless, of course, IT's boss(es) have INSTRUCTED them to prevent people like you from doing exactly that.

      Just because IT tells you that you can't do something doesn't mean they are doing so because they want to be dicks.

      WE have bosses to, 'ya know. You don't like the porn filter and/or want to be able to install games on your COMPANY computer? Talk to your boss. If you can get him to agree to your need of porn and/or games, then it will happen.

      Grow up. You are at work to WORK, not browse porn and play games (unless, of course, you work for a pornographic game producing company)...

      >it doesn't mean the IT staff isn't doing their jobs.

      That's exactly what it means. Neither preventing people from installing games or preventing people from browsing porn is IT's job.
      --
      bork bork bork!
    10. Re:Don't agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you don't have sysadmins in your IT department, you have MCSEs. Throw them an Ubuntu 8.04 LTS CD in a few days and see if your webserver is suddenly online.

    11. Re:Don't agree by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      You've managed to miss my point entirely. My point is IT isn't doing their job, they're doing management's job and implementing it as IT.

      Your job isn't to implement management policy in technology. Somewhere along the line, someone in your department made this mistake of volunteering to do this and it was a really bad idea.

      And now you get to reap the repercussions of it.

      (Oh, and by the way... I have had assignments which have required me to access information most filters would block. I'm a security analyst and sometimes it's critical that I be able to get to a dangerous webpage, a phishing site or a site that contains information on how do things that filter vendors don't like and block. But this is neither here nor there. My use of the web and what I do at work is between me and my manager.)

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    12. Re:Don't agree by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      Your job isn't to implement management policy in technology.

      Huh? I must be misreading your comment, because you seem to be 100% wrong on the issue. The job of IT in the larger company is to implement management policy in technology. If not, then what is the Job of IT?

      My use of the web and what I do at work is between me and my manager.

      Well, now you contradict yourself. If you don't have the necessary access you need to do your job, isn't that an issue between you and IT?

      Unless IT is restricting access based on policy from management. But that's not IT's job. So why is this an issue between you and your manager?

    13. Re:Don't agree by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

      Many of us superusers hate our IT departments for good reason.

      Though it doesn't sound like you have an IT problem. Sounds like you have a managament problem. The folks who told you an internal website was a priority should have given the same message to IT.

      Think of it this way--the first time your garbage doesn't get taken out, you have an issue with the cleaning crew. If the garbage piles up for two years, the problem is not the cleaning crew.

    14. Re:Don't agree by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Actually, those are specifically spelled out as part of IT's job where I work. And people do indeed get fired for violating policies along those lines.

      Which justifies the assumption that IT is on a power trip.

      Face it, if they're power grabbing for priviledges they do not need, it's time to outsource.
      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    15. Re:Don't agree by firewrought · · Score: 1

      "It's a symptom of the IT organization being unable to meet or even understand the needs of its customers," he says. "Otherwise, it wouldn't be happening."
      I don't think that's true. Lots of people just want to screw around with things and get an ego boost out of flouting authority or trying to show-up the IT staff.
      No, it's very true I work in a large (1000+ employees) IT organization. I've seen the rogue VB programs, the 80MB spreadsheets, the spaghetti networks of interlinked access databases. I'm sure there are some folks who "just want to screw around", but everyone I have met was trying to meet a business need that we were not fast enough and knowledgeable enough to accommodate.

      The thing is, large IT organizations have trouble moving fast. We have to think about a lot of concerns (standardization, SOX-compliance, change management, licensing, overall cost) that are unrelated to the core business need. Not to mention actually /understanding/ the business need well enough to find a good solution for it.
      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    16. Re:Don't agree by altinos.com · · Score: 1

      Every place I've worked, IT was mandated by upper management to prevent people from surfing porn and installing games. I'd hardly call that IT on a power trip.

    17. Re:Don't agree by altinos.com · · Score: 1

      Oh please. One of my duties at my last job was to browse the firewall logs looking for links to sites and images that could be pornographic. Then I had to print them all to PDF and hand the file to the CEO who would then print them out and sit down with the offender for reprimanding or termination. It was one of the most time consuming and irritating jobs I did there, and it was not voluntary. People think it'd be fun to look at porn images all day, but when it's not stuff you're interested in, it's extremely tedious. Even when it is, it gets old really fast.

    18. Re:Don't agree by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      The problem with management here is that they're intimidated by IT. Every time management presses them on anything, they just spout off some technical excuses and management backs down. Now *I* know the technical excuses they're using are a bunch of lazy BS. But management doesn't (and are more inclined to listen to IT's line that to believe one lone user like me, however skilled). The typical pattern goes like this (repeated ad infinitum):

      Management: Any progress on that internal website?
      Me: My part is done. I'm waiting on IT to get their server online
      Management: Well, give them a call and see what the problem is
      Me: Hello IT, what's the deal?
      IT: We're having some trouble [insert latest excuse here]
      Me: A first-year CS student could have set this thing up ages ago.
      IT: We need to hire another consultant. We'll get back to you.
      Me: Hello, management? IT says they need more time
      Management: Well, let's give them one more chance.
      Rinse...wash...repeat....

      Two years of "one more chances." My boss came to me yesterday and started the cycle yet again. I wouldn't care if it didn't make ME look bad to (my Boss always seems to think there is something *I* can do about it, as if IT takes orders from me).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    19. Re:Don't agree by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I can't speak for everyone else, but in my experience most of the time when people are screwing around with things it's because they have a need that's unmet.

      Then I would guess that you work with good people. I've had to deal with people who have insisted on installing desktop wallpaper changers and special cursors, even though they came with malware. I've had to deal with people trying to open security holes in our network so they can participate in P2P networks so they can download movies and MP3s (forgetting the legal liability, there's still the issue of bandwidth).

      I've seen so much stupid and ignorant behavior that has nothing to do with "business needs", and at best it's a benign nuisance. Even when it doesn't actively cause problems, it becomes yet another thing that the helpdesk techs then have to deal with. In my span working professionally in IT, I've seen people take the whole network down for hours, I've seen users expose the whole network to a new virus, and I've had a user get my e-mail IP blacklisted for spam after setting up a rogue SMTP service.

      Yes, I've seen someone reinstall Windows on their work machine, losing some important data and work applications, in order to install solitaire. I've had people try to get around our web-filtering to access porn (legal problems), IM (security problems), and P2P (legal problems, bandwidth problems, security problems, and storage problems). These may all fill "unmet needs", but they sure as hell weren't work-based needs

    20. Re:Don't agree by michrech · · Score: 1
      If you'd make your argument more clear, maybe this wouldn't happen. As another poster said, your message is muddy.

      IT's job is, despite what you seem to think in your twisted head, to do what "Management" tells it to do, not what the users *want* to do.

      Lets take your situation. You need unfiltered access, however, company policy is to have some sort of filtering in place. Fine. You work with YOUR boss, tell him what you need, and he will either instruct IT (or talk with the "boss" of IT) to get what you need. If what you are needing *really* is part of your job, other than some time, you have nothing to worry about. "Management" will tell IT to set up whatever needs setting up to provide you with the access you need.

      If "Management" denies your request, then you either misunderstand what your job *actually* is, or you didn't clearly explain what you need/why you need it.

      What is so hard to understand about that? This isn't Rocket Surgery...

      You've managed to miss my point entirely. My point is IT isn't doing their job, they're doing management's job and implementing it as IT.

      Your job isn't to implement management policy in technology. Somewhere along the line, someone in your department made this mistake of volunteering to do this and it was a really bad idea.

      And now you get to reap the repercussions of it.

      (Oh, and by the way... I have had assignments which have required me to access information most filters would block. I'm a security analyst and sometimes it's critical that I be able to get to a dangerous webpage, a phishing site or a site that contains information on how do things that filter vendors don't like and block. But this is neither here nor there. My use of the web and what I do at work is between me and my manager.)
      --
      bork bork bork!
    21. Re:Don't agree by Stradivarius · · Score: 1

      wow. That's nuts. Reinstalling Windows to get Solitaire takes the cake though.

      You're right that I work with good people, so we haven't seen much of that (in terms of slacking off or in terms of dumb behavior). Probably doesn't hurt that many of our users are software developers, so they're more aware of the risks involved.

    22. Re:Don't agree by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      Here's the floppy, your nightly is available from this address.

      clean-up done.

      If it takes more than that, IT was slacking on their job.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    23. Re:Don't agree by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      I can't believe you'd actually stand for a job that involved anything like that. What are you, a paid babysitter? I know you're stunned at the audiacity that I might suggest that technical people should spend their some worrying about technical issues and not babysitting people for a living. But maybe the answer is you need to work at better organization.

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    24. Re:Don't agree by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      > Well, now you contradict yourself. If you don't
      > have the necessary access you need to do your job,
      > isn't that an issue between you and IT?

      Absolutely not, IT shouldn't have anything to do with it. Why do I have to go to IT for management policy? That should be something I go to my manager to talk about. If you do implement some idiotic harebrained filtering scheme, the *managers* should be the ones who press the buttons. It's management policy, not IT policy.

      Just because the organization is too incompetent to implement a system that enables to right people to control it doesn't mean that system isn't broken because of it.

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    25. Re:Don't agree by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      In the words of this guy: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/14/1944213

      You're an idiot. :)

      Calm down and type to me like I'm a human being or that's all the argument we'll be engaging in today. Through the entire thread you've done nothing but talk about "people like me" or "my situation" when you clearly have no clue that both are entirely neither who I am or a situation that I've had issue with.

      (The place I work has too much bandwidth running through it to impose any useful filters and so I've never had a situation like that. And then assuming that I work around IT policy simply because I pointed out that it's stupid is just silly. I have a relationship with my employer where they treat my like an adult and I simply need to tell them what I need if for some reason I don't already have it. I have no need to work around stupid IT policy. However, I can easily see why people would... and you should be able to as well.)

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    26. Re:Don't agree by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Probably doesn't hurt that many of our users are software developers, so they're more aware of the risks involved.

      Honestly, some of my worst users have been programmers of some kind. I don't want to disparage software developers in general, but the worst users aren't people who don't know anything about computers. The worst are always those who know a little and think they know a lot, or those who know a lot and think they know everything.

      In my experience, people with CS degrees *can be* your worst nightmare when working in IT. They've studied computers, and they know more than enough to subvert whatever you're doing. On the other hand, they don't always understand the business forces at play, and they aren't always aware of the issues the IT department is facing. Also, I've known more than a few software developers who are understand how computers are *supposed to* work, and actually make the mistake of thinking software is generally well written and that computers work the way they're "supposed to". Any IT guy worth his salt will tell you that Murphy's Law holds true.

      That's not to say that I haven't also seen IT people being snotty, running amok, ignoring genuine business needs, etc. I've seen a lot of incompetent IT workers who simply do a bad job. On the other hand, when I hear people complaining that their IT staff won't let users admin their own machines or set up WiFi access points, my immediate reaction is, "Sounds like your IT people are doing the right thing."

    27. Re:Don't agree by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Did IT accept to take care of the sewage as well? no? Then they should not have accepted policy which makes them responsible.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
  5. Please tell me by croddy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Please tell me people don't really talk like that. "Grew the solution"? "Drive business value"? These people need to get a hold on themselves and listen to the feces streaming out of their mouths.

    1. Re:Please tell me by gruvmeister · · Score: 2, Funny

      The only people who talk like this are those who write for business-related magazines, or useless middle management types who are at least aware of their uselessness and are attempting to avoid drawing attention to it by making your brain shut down.

    2. Re:Please tell me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, they talk like that. In fact, I'll do you one better: They talk like that...in the government. Seriously. I work for DHS, and hear the same businessbabble about "meeting customer needs" and "growing a solution" and "business value" where the customer is a border patrol agent, and business value is the tradeoff between buying him new body armor and the additional amount of illegals he can capture before he gets shot.

    3. Re:Please tell me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't even stand the word "proactive". I once responded "Why don't you just say 'Take the initiative'?"

  6. yeah right. by apodyopsis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    hahaha, let the users have admin rights?

    does the author have **any** experience of the commercial environment?

    1. Re:yeah right. by boris111 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's certainly not perfect, but my gigantic fortune 500 company does this and everything seems to be just fine. This combined with the fact that the PC support people are braindead.

    2. Re:yeah right. by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      My gigantic fortune 500 company does this, too.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    3. Re:yeah right. by apodyopsis · · Score: 1

      Then I envy you. I needed a password to set up a tool I use and it took me two days of begging, persuading and wheedling to get it at one place I worked. The IT "consultant" who was trusted with it - well, lets say that I would not of trusted him with a mop and bucket.

      I have - in the past - booted off a Linux rescue CD, mounted NTFS read only and got files I needed from protected folders because some jumped up little officious twit has not known what he is talking about. And was about the image the drive because apparently there was "no way" to get at the data.

      In managerial mode this kind of set up looks sensible and secure - and nobody will persuade them otherwise.

    4. Re:yeah right. by Velcroman98 · · Score: 1

      I've worked in two large corporate IT environments (many others if you count all the short consulting gigs I worked). They were night and day as to how they ran and how you would want to treat the users. When I worked at The University of Phoenix Online the employees, sales drones, would have destroyed their computers within days if they had access. They were the most IT illiterate people they could find. When I worked at ATMI, they had a bunch of engineers who needed access for one reason or another. They would almost never do something stupid, and they would ask before they attempted things they did not understand.

      I imagine the users are different at every shop, as is IT management. Problem is management evolves towards those that can do the corporate politics, and the skilled IT managers leave to go back to coding or running the network.

    5. Re:yeah right. by Teflon_Jeff · · Score: 1

      I agree... mostly. Keep in mind, there are probably employees who know more than the admins. Our admin is a lateral transfer from a sales manager position. Nice guy, but I know more than he does. So why not find a small group of qualified, competent users who can help out? An Admin-mini-team, so to speak. 2 heads are better than one, and all that.

      Of course, it won't happen. I have to keep working my way around all their frivolous crap that blocks personal e-mail and slashdot. But I'm sure some companies aren't as near-sighted.

      --
      "Teach a man to build a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life."
    6. Re:yeah right. by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Depends on the user. We have users who 1) we trust, and 2) have a legitimate need for admin rights. When both of those conditions are met, we let them have admin rights. If they fail either test, then no joy ;)

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    7. Re:yeah right. by Tikkun · · Score: 1

      hahaha, let the users have admin rights? does the author have **any** experience of the commercial environment? I support programmers and QA staff at my job. They know how to install software (heck, part of their job is to break the machines).

      If they didn't have (local) admin rights they couldn't do their jobs.
    8. Re:yeah right. by boris111 · · Score: 1

      My company handles this by saying they're responsible for application X, Y, and Z and the OS on your computer. If you managed to hose your system they won't do anymore than re-image your laptop. This seems to keep most users in line at my company from installing dumb shit to hose your laptop. Makes me a Software Dev behave myself too!

    9. Re:yeah right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure I trust our users to understand the software licensing issues. Anyone want to go through an audit when they have no idea what the users have been installing on the computers? Better yet, what's been installed for them as they're visiting compromised websites...

    10. Re:yeah right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My users get admin rights to a point. I tell them they can pretty much do what you want with their desktop, but if it starts acting slow or I have to start fixing things then rights start getting taken away, depending on what I find. I have yet to take rights away due to abuse.

    11. Re:yeah right. by Craevenwulfe · · Score: 0

      You mean the commercial environment where i have those IBM twats administrating my network. 8 weeks to get a phoneline. 4 weeks to get a login. USB ports that are disabled so i can't access data from the production system on my desktop pc. Why not network it you might ask? Because IBM will charge about £10k to "support" another software package - obviously supporting doesn't even involve them even doing anything.

    12. Re:yeah right. by JrOldPhart · · Score: 1

      Probably because they do not support your development system software, therefore you get to spend a day reinstalling that and then restoring your setup.

      --
      Nothing is foolproof, fools are too ingenious. - Murphy
    13. Re:yeah right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually interviewed for a place that allowed all the users to have admin rights for helpdesk and decided not to take it for primarily that reason.

  7. Don't be silly by get+quad · · Score: 1

    Turning rogue users loose to allow who-knows-what into your network??? Who keeps wtiting this irresponsible crap? Botnet articles cannot coincide with these articles, make up your minds.

    --
    "To err is human, to mod Funny divine."
  8. The admin & support issues are a nightmare by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We've actually moved away from this, fairly strongly. We work in a healthcare organization and having people develop applications on our servers can potentially cause huge issues. While it's possible to create little sandbox areas for them, it's an administrative hassle, and it's always hard to be positive their applications can't cross security lines or impact another application's performance. Then there's the support issues - who fixes their business critical application when they've left or are on vacation? It's like the days when people would make Microsoft Access applications for everything, and then it would be dumped in our lap.

    Our reponse has been to staff up to meet customer demand and spent a lot of time bringing other IT folks up to speed on web development. It's worked out fairly well, and the number of times I've been called in to fix a Microsoft Access report or the like has dropped dramatically.

    1. Re:The admin & support issues are a nightmare by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      The maintenance thing is definitely one of the biggest headaches...Those fricking Access apps can be a cast iron bitch.

      With Healthcare I can definitely see getting rid of those guys; HIPPA concerns alone would be a good reason to have only professional applications. The costs of a security leak would be disastrous.

      Still, for other businesses, it's harder to squeeze the money for extra FTEs in IT, and some of the slack in reporting especially, will have to be taken up by access junkies who can be slipped onto another departments payroll.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:The admin & support issues are a nightmare by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The maintenance thing is definitely one of the biggest headaches...Those fricking Access apps can be a cast iron bitch.

      Every time I see an Access app I think of how much more sense it would have made to implement it as some kind of web application, even in php. One server, all users. No locking/synchronization issues to speak of (certainly nothing like trying to use a shared mdb file.)

      I could implement 99% of the access databases I've seen using a PHP CMS (say, drupal) and in less time, too. They could all coexist and even cooperate and the system could run anywhere you can get php and mysql. (Drupal 7 may be able to just use PHP5's sqlite, too...)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:The admin & support issues are a nightmare by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. Unfortunately there are a lot of Access jockeys out there, and they have a tendency to create Access applications that are massive and byzantine.

      I tend to replace them with web apps, when their progenitor dies or gets fired, because it's usually easier to start them over from scratch than it is to support them, but I've never been in a position where I could force other departments to hire someone who would do it right the first time.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    4. Re:The admin & support issues are a nightmare by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I can certainly see the need to standardize and keep things under control...

      However, the needs of the Access users did not go away just because things came under control. At my company it was frustrating because they standardized, but chose tools that were very expensive. So whereas in the past I could run an instance of MySQL or some other free database along with Apache on one of the SPARC servers where I had an account, now I was directed towards their Oracle DB and ASP. So now I need expensive tools, and we don't have a site license, and I need to make a presentation to management to justify the capital expense.

      Bleh... all I want to do is write a quick PHP app to keep track of action items for a project or run a project wiki. We don't need to spend any money on this!

      To their credit, they saw the error of their ways, and they'll now give you a virtual machine if you want (and even back it up for you!). But frankly, this is too far in the other direction, as I could really f things up with a virtual machine. I'd have preferred that they standardized on a "free" set of tools as well as the big proprietary stuff that they needed to install for the finance guys. It would have been a nice compromise, and it would have been easier for them to support when I leave or die :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  9. IT parallels the free software movement by Qwerpafw · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you look back in history, people originally used computers together, sharing access, tips, and source code. Now it's all top down - someone dictates what you'll do and how you do it. You, as the unempowered user, receive prebuilt restrictions, prebuilt computers, prebuilt binaries. You can't tinker, you can't fix, and you aren't even supposed to poke around.

    The problems of restriction in DRM, restriction in EULA, restriction by not providing source code, restriction in IT are all the same. Instead of educating users and providing them the ability to solve problems, IT mirrors large software companies and media companies, and removes any control, forcing them to be "stupid." When users can't even diagnose on their own, and are forced to run to IT for the most minor software install, the bureaucracy justifies itself. IT is necessary because it's been made necessary. Dumb down the users and they need someone to hold their hand. But create a community of educated and empowered individuals and people will share information.

    In a community of empowered users people don't just share solutions, they create solutions.

    1. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by Spad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And while you're creating this community, your network is busily being infested with malware, unlicensed software and pirated music.

      As much as we love to believe that everyone would be an ideal user with just a little education, most people simply do not care about computers outside of the fact that they have to use them for checking their emails and inputting data into "Application X". I admit that I work in the NHS, so there's an abnormally high percentage of IT illiterate users, but I see very few users with an actual interest in learning.

    2. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's like antivirus programs. I have no problems with having it installed on my computer, but I DO have a problem with it kicking off in the middle of the danged day when I am trying to work. The problem with some of the power tripping IT staff (hey I am in IT) is that they don't think....what time of day should these run?? They accept all defasults.....and that sucks.

      --

      Gorkman

    3. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by raddan · · Score: 1

      Instead of educating users and providing them the ability to solve problems, IT mirrors large software companies and media companies, and removes any control, forcing them to be "stupid." I'm all for software freedom, but come on-- users are dumb. The difference between today's users and the "original computer users" is that the latter knew what they were doing. Trust me, training only goes so far. When the nth receptionist this month (where n approaches infinity) installs OMGLinsdayLohanSearchBarAkaComputerDefilerToolbar on the front desk machine, you might change your mind about locking things down.

      Let's also not forget-- these are company machines. If my resident computer revolutionaries feel like paying for the equipment and IT overtime when they hose something important, I'm all for it. If they want something, they need to talk to me. It's sad that this doesn't happen in some places, but hey, that's life.
    4. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by Qwerpafw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not hard to teach people the basics of networking. When you hold people's hands, you make it so they won't have to learn, so they don't. Require them to learn how to fish and they'll be providing for themselves. I know you'll say it's crazy, it's impossible, no normal person could ever learn responsible computer use... but get off your high horse. People routinely learn much more difficult things than using computers - and if they have a motivation to learn how to do things, they will.

      In fact, you've proven this. You say people will figure out how to "infest" your network with unlicensed software, but that's assuming individuals will figure out how to do this. You're probablly certain they will - and why? Because it's probably already happened. You spend your time fighting against your tricky users, who find all the holes in your policies and install skype, or limewire, or whatever the unauthorized flavor of the month is.

      IT creates an oppositional environment where users are pitted against systems administrators. Is it a surprise that people find ways around the IT department's rules? Imagine if these energies were placed towards helping the system, helping the network, helping resolve instead of circumvent. Sure, not everyone may be willing to expend effort, but there'll be enough people who will take responsibility for themsleves and share with others.

    5. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by djcapelis · · Score: 1

      Hmmm. This really seems like an interesting point. It is interesting to notice we're just on the verge of what might turn out to be a revolution in the way IT is done. This isn't the first article that seems to be pointing in a "it's time to change IT" direction. This is all coinciding almost right at the time that Open-Source software is becoming acceptable to end-users. As far as I'm concerned the year of the desktop was 2007.

      One wonders if perhaps the increasing use of open-source will bring about a revolution in IT. Or vice-versa. They do seem to be somewhat interlinked.

      This speculation about new decentralized community-based IT overlords is delightful and I welcome it!

      --
      I touch computers in naughty places
    6. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by L0rdJedi · · Score: 1

      Give me a break. The people that "originally" used computers were mostly CS students that knew the computers inside and out. They could not only build the computers, they could program them as well. That is not the vast majority of users anymore.

      Users today do not care how their computers work, as long as they do. I can't count the number of times I got a call from someone about an update notification window because "I don't want to mess anything up". Their own home computers are so loaded with crap that they're slow. They prefer having "the IT guy" around to make sure their system is running properly and has all the updates it needs. Even if they were shown how to troubleshoot their system, they wouldn't care enough to remember it. Accounting, purchasing, sales, etc, etc. They're all the same. They do not care how it works, as long as it does work.

      The auto mechanic thinks the same thing about you when you bring your car in to get it fixed. He can explain what's wrong and what it needs, but you're not going to fix it the next time (maybe breaks and oil is all you'll do), simply because you either 1) don't have the time or 2) don't care. You bring it to him to fix it or make sure it's in tip top shape. You don't care about all the little details and you don't need to, because he's always there to fix it.

    7. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Instead of educating users and providing them the ability to solve problems...

      Do you know how much education it takes before people will properly admin even their own machines? Too much, and most people don't care to be properly educated. Most people either (a) don't want to be bothered to admin their own machines; or (b) want to admin their own machines, don't want to spend the time to learn how to do it properly, and then will hassle the IT department to fix their mistakes. Either way, you don't want to hand control over to them.

      If people really wanted to spend the time to learn how to admin machines properly, and then wanted to spend their time doing so, then they would have pursued a career in IT.

    8. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you look back in history, people originally used computers together, sharing access, tips, and source code. Now it's all top down - someone dictates what you'll do and how you do it.

      If you look back in history, when you wrote software on an IBM mainframe, it became the property of IBM.

      In a community of empowered users people don't just share solutions, they create solutions.

      Most of the time they create problems because of a lack of personal empowerment. If you have an idiot and a genius working for you, you don't give the idiot all the passwords, now do you? No. You give him the fucking mop, and let him do the floors, and you keep him as far away from computers as possible.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Except most people's job isn't to tinker, and find different ways to do things. It's to get a specific job done as efficently as possible.

      Computers are supposed to be tools to getting a job done quicker, cheaper and with less error. Replace computers and users in your argument with the first calculators and accountants and you see how silly your argument is.

      Computers are a tool to get something done, not a plaything for employees so they can grow and learn.

    10. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by gruvmeister · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Users today do not care how their computers work, as long as they do. I can't count the number of times I got a call from someone about an update notification window because "I don't want to mess anything up". Their own home computers are so loaded with crap that they're slow. They prefer having "the IT guy" around to make sure their system is running properly and has all the updates it needs. Even if they were shown how to troubleshoot their system, they wouldn't care enough to remember it. Accounting, purchasing, sales, etc, etc. They're all the same. They do not care how it works, as long as it does work.

      The auto mechanic thinks the same thing about you when you bring your car in to get it fixed. He can explain what's wrong and what it needs, but you're not going to fix it the next time This is true of most users. The computer-car analogy is a perfect one, and I use it all the time. Most people know how to drive, but do they know how to rebuild a transmission or replace a front axle? No, and they don't want to either. Some goes for computers - most people know how to use them to the point where they can get what they need to done - web use, accounting, work applications, etc. They don't know and in most cases don't care to know anything about the 'behind-the-scenes stuff'.

      With both cars and computers, there's a small group that will attempt (successfully or unsuccessfully) to do the 'dirty work' themselves - more power to 'em, unless of course it's not their computer/network to destroy, in which case they should keep their grubby little hands out of where they don't belong. Would you try to replace a busted CV boot on someone else's car when your mechanic abilities don't extend beyond oil changes or fixing a flat?
    11. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Well, congratulations. Your company has just lost three major clients and is on the receiving end of millions of dollars in fines and a criminal investigation.

      Why? Because your educated and empowered individuals just decided to share some information. Involving financial and health records belonging to millions of customers. With the whole of the Internet.

      And now you have to explain to some very angry people who had their senses of humour surgically removed on their first day on the job just how it is that your security policy consists of "We just let the users control it all".

      Your problem is that you are anthropomorphizing your users and assuming that they all want just what you want. Most people just want to do their jobs, and those jobs have nothing to do with endlessly tinkering around with the tools that they need to do so. The kind of permissive, anything-goes atmosphere that may be appropriate for a University CS lab just doesn't work in the private sector.

    12. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      You've got to be joking.

      The problem with the computing utopia you describe is that not everyone has the level of knowledge required to make it possible. What's worse, a very large percentage of people who don't have a clue don't realize that they don't have a clue.

      Where I work, if we have users who have demonstrated an ability to tinker, the judgment to know when to tinker and when to leave it the **** alone, and who have a legitimate need to work on their systems, we let them. It makes less work for us, and that's a good thing.

      On the other hand, there are also a number of users who have demonstrated (many times) that they shouldn't be trusted with anything more complex than a slide rule because they constantly tinker, and they usually can't fix things when they break them. Unlike your ideal world, and the users I described in the previous paragraph, these people make my life far more difficult than it needs to be, and consequently, I try to secure their computers as much as I can, because I don't want to fix their computers every other week after they screwed them up by tweaking something unnecessary...again.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    13. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

      All these anti-IT dept posts are by users that apparently work in software development companies or something, because at regular companies the non-IT people are clueless on their computers. Not to say we restrict the hell out of them (even though it's tempting sometimes), but basically most people are not into computers as a hobby so they just want to surf, email, or do their job.

    14. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 1

      >>As much as we love to believe that everyone would be an ideal user with just a little education, most people simply do not care about computers

      I agree, and had to add: And most people are not _paid_ to futz around with computers. They are paid to do their job. IT's job is making computers work; everyone else uses them to do their jobs.

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
    15. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by duce7777 · · Score: 1

      its run during the day because most people shutdown their machines at night or they go into sleep mode. Then there's the laptop users, who dont even have their machines at the office at night and are probably shut down. No wait its because the admins are lazy and click next.

    16. Re:IT parallels the free software movement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not leave your computer on all night so it can run the AV at night?

  10. I'm _in_ IT by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

    And I can't get stuff working right. Our monitoring solution (OpenSpew) is managed by a central group so we don't have the ability to know if our changes are being made. So we don't get pages when we need them and we get pages from 2 weeks ago at all hours. When we ask for additional features, we're told it'll cost $20,000 and there's no money in the budget.

    As a result, the other groups have set up their own monitoring solution and shoot alerts to OpenView. And now we're getting ready to implement our own monitoring and stats solution (Nagios and RRDTool).

    [John]

    --
    Shit better not happen!
  11. To a degree... by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Put them to work?" I'm not about putting the beatdown on non-it tech guys, but I'm also not about giving them free reign. Isolate them from the bulk of the network, where their antics won't cause problems for the regular users, and impress upon them that they have a level of responsibility for their data and any problems that crop up with their projects. Make sure you bring their managers into the loop and impress upon them the problems that could crop up when their Access and Excel scripting guru runs amok, and then let 'em do their thing.

    Oh, and wireless? I don't think so. Messing with network infrastucture is a cardinal sin, and any organization that doesn't have its internal network secured well enough to prevent someone setting up their own wireless inside the building needs to do some serious self-examination. Some things you just do not screw around with.

    In my experience, the biggest problem is that the non-it power users don't have the same appreciation for security as the people whose job it is to make sure things are secure. Security is a pain in the ass; no question about it, and a lot of users view it solely as a pain in the ass, with their inconvenience rating much higher in their estimation than IT's "Unreasonable Paranoia". If you restrict those users too much, they're going to spend all their time trying to get around your rules...Same as a child will. But like a child, if you give them a certain amount of freedom inside the rules, then they're much more likely to be obedient. They will understand that the rules are there because they have to be, not just because you hate them and don't want them to be able to do what they want to.

    --
    ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    1. Re:To a degree... by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 1

      Yeah our network guys just put up a internal firewall around our servers and I had to find a way to let the user use a program similar to Crimson Edit. Crimson will let you edit a file via ftp (it downloads it to temp and when you save it uploads it). Well, we blocked ftp except to a couple brain dead apps (the app still uses FTP for somethings which REALLY sucks). So I had to dig around and find something that let him get his job done, and yet use port 22 via SCP or SFTP. It's only code he's letting fly over FTP, but the chance that real data could co over the link is too great to let the port open anymore.

      His first reaction was why do they have to do that and I basically gave him the reason why and told him we'd find a way to do it the way he wanted or a similar way and we found it by using WinSCP.

      Some people don't want to use new tools because they are used to the old one even though the new one acts just the same 99 percent of the time. It's the old well this program has worked great for me for years and why do I have to switch argument. I usually just let them go, but I can't now. Same thing goes with the stupid access apps out there.

      --

      Gorkman

    2. Re:To a degree... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Make sure you bring their managers into the loop and impress upon them the problems that could crop up when their Access and Excel scripting guru runs amok, and then let 'em do their thing.

      I've done this before. It was probably the best thing to do at the time, and it worked out pretty well... up until people wanted the IT staff to take on responsibility for the Access/Excel stuff. I'd advise people to be wary of this sort of thing, because even if you disavow any responsibility, when the shit hits the fan, you *will* be expected to make it all work. It won't matter that you warned everyone ahead of time.

    3. Re:To a degree... by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Yep, and I've had that problem, so I appreciate it. Still, in the long run, it was probably a net gain for the IT department because that guy fielded a lot of tedious report and database issues before he quit, and by the time he left they had a better grasp on what they needed, so we could deploy supportable webapps to provide them the same functionality.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  12. The Other Take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The idea of putting them to work is indeed an interesting one but, I still have some questions. The first question is: What is their current job? While they and their cohorts might think that installing rogue access points in the break room is tre cool, I'm wondering what their real job is supposed to be and if it's being done? And how well is it being done?

    To drag out the obligatory broken automotive analogy ... How would a package delivery company react to its drivers or call center operators tinkering under the hood of the delivery vehicles? Putting dubs and 22 inch wheels on the truck might seem totally cool to a good number of people within the company but, that still doesn't make it a good thing. And arguing that it saves gas might still not be enough to make it acceptable.

    My thought is that these people should work in IT if that is what they want to do. But, if they choose to be an accountant, they should stick to that and realize that they might not have all the information necessary to make the best IT decisions.

  13. on the down low? by jollyreaper · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I thought that was code in the black community for openly heterosexual males engaging in secret homosexual trysts. Is that really how end-users see dealing with IT? When we make the next supply run, should we throw in some astro-glide, too?

    --
    Kwisatz Haderach
    Sell the spice to CHOAM
    This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    1. Re:on the down low? by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      I thought that was code in the black community for openly heterosexual males engaging in secret homosexual trysts. Is that really how end-users see dealing with IT? When we make the next supply run, should we throw in some astro-glide, too? Would modifying a gay joke as flamebait constitute a form of trolling?
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    2. Re:on the down low? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've heard the IT community is embarrassingly white, by percentage, and so you have an excuse... but that's easily the worst misinterpretation of a slang phrase I've ever heard. ;)

  14. IT Departments Fail by Velcroman98 · · Score: 1

    I worked in a couple IT departments for years, and I agree with the article in that many of the IT departments fail to provide what is needed to run the business. I've seen IT departments slow down large projects, make many projecs come in way past due dates rendering them worthless, and having projects killed because IT just cannot get it done.

    Then I watched my IT overlords blow their bbudget because they wanted to upgrade the entire phone system to a Cisco IP based one - "because they are cool."

    1. Re:IT Departments Fail by glamslam · · Score: 1

      I wonder what would have happened if HR or Marketing was in charge of it instead.

    2. Re:IT Departments Fail by raddan · · Score: 1

      OTOH, you'd be hard pressed to find a user that can get single-sign-on working across a heterogeneous network (hint: we have it working on Windows, Macs, Linux, *and* OpenBSD machines), or backing up 7TB of storage *nightly* (or heck, even providing 7TB of storage), containing virus outbreaks, and so on. There are plenty of IT departments that suck, and there are plenty that don't. Sometimes IT needs to give users some slack, but other times, IT needs to smack it down, hard. We've learned the hard way that users tend to make uninformed purchases of software-- this often leads to the company relying on a proprietary (and expensive) file format, when a few moments of consideration ahead of time would have saved the company a lot of pain. Yes, Adobe, I'm talking about YOU.

    3. Re:IT Departments Fail by Velcroman98 · · Score: 1

      I wonder what would have happened if HR or Marketing was in charge of it instead.

      I wouldn't expect much change - promising stuff you cannot deliver is the mantra of many IT departments already.

    4. Re:IT Departments Fail by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Blah blah blah. Every third response is something along the lines of, "Well my last experience with IT sucked, so they must be worthless."

      So a simple question: "What's the alternative?"

      Seriously. Are you suggesting throwing the entire corporate infrastructure open to maintenance from anyone who thinks they can do it?

      Frankly, I'm fucking tired of everyone sitting around with nothing better to do than complain about this or that thing. I've got crap to work with; too few employees, ancient systems, no money for software, hardware, or training.

      When I do get an upgrade, everyone who doesn't benefit immediately starts calling it a stupid purchase and a waste...Godforbid someone wants to switch to IP telephony, because we all know that that tech is never going to catch on, and it's a much much better idea to keep paying for old fashioned phone trunks every month than just one nice internet connection.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    5. Re:IT Departments Fail by Velcroman98 · · Score: 1

      Blah blah blah. Every third response is something along the lines of, "Well my last experience with IT sucked, so they must be worthless."

      We only have our experiences to draw upon what we know.

      Godforbid someone wants to switch to IP telephony, because we all know that that tech is never going to catch on, and it's a much much better idea to keep paying for old fashioned phone trunks every month than just one nice internet connection.

      IP telephony can be great. My experience at ATMI was the CIO wanted it because it was cool. The phone guy would have to prepare the project documents every six months for him to weigh out the cost against the perceived benefit. A giant costs to upgrade a functional digital system, because the Cisco system sounds cool.

      There were no usable benefits needed for the corporation. That doesnâ(TM)t mean when they move in a couple years to a new building they shouldnâ(TM)t consider it. But a forklift upgrade from the well running digital system today only gets you some flashy new screens for a couple hundred grand.

    6. Re:IT Departments Fail by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      I'm currently working the other end of the stick with a crappy phone system that no one is willing to pay to upgrade...And we need the upgrade.

      And I know that sometimes the stupid thing gets upgraded; we got an upgrade for an graphics management system which wasn't really required, and which is about to be rendered obsolescent by outsourcing after only 18 months in operation. Total cost would have paid for the new phone system, which would have paid for itself in 3 years without any help.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    7. Re:IT Departments Fail by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      No doubt.

      My wife started a business, and asked me to design her network and computer systems for her. However, she decided to buy proprietary software against my recommendations (I don't like proprietary software). The company providing one of those pieces of software recently changed the SSL certificate on the web site from which she downloads tax information. She called the vendor to get a patch to use the new SSL certificate, and was told that her version of the software was no longer supported; she would need to upgrade to a new version of the program...which wouldn't run on her operating system (Win2K -- the new version of the software requires XP).

      I just said "I told you to go Open Source." ;)

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  15. Great idea... by spywhere · · Score: 2, Funny

    Then, the proles can install Kazaa and LimeWire... and put the shares on the corporate servers.


    Yes, I've seen that done.

    1. Re:Great idea... by kylehase · · Score: 1

      You can give them full local access but lock down the network through proxies and corporate firewalls to stop those activities.

      --
      You want fun, go home and buy a monkey!
  16. Yes! Put them to work! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    breaking big rocks in to little ones or maybe digging holes and filling them again ... at GITMO

    signed,
    BCLEFH*

    * CLE == C-Level Executive

    muahahahahaaa

  17. Been on both sides by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've been on both ends of the IT/user divide. I've administered networks of several hundred machines and am well aware of what some people will try to do with them. In my current position, however, I'm just a regular user. So when people in the department start talking about doing something that IT wouldn't approve of, I can usually explain to them in their terms why it wouldn't be such a good idea. OTOH, there have also been times where I've been called in by my boss to take care of a situation that IT hasn't been able to resolve, but that I've figured out because I face the problem daily. In those instances, I don't mind making a quick lap around the department and tweaking the machines a bit, because I know that it's exactly what IT would be doing anyways if they could be bothered to figure it out. And before someone says anything, I've contacted IT before to explain the problem and the fix. It's just that it's usually such an esoteric issue that they can't even begin to get their heads around it (e.g., font caching issues involving using certain programs in a certain sequence).

    --
    This guy's the limit!
    1. Re:Been on both sides by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That's one thing I see a lot; a lack of communication between the users and IT. They need something, something that we could provide if we knew they needed it, but we don't spend any time up there, and they don't know enough to ask for it.

      I've tried things like getting IT people invited to departmental meetings, cross-training the new guys in other departments...Whole lotta nothin has come out of that.

      I think in the long run it's jsut going to require that the average user becomes tech savvy enough to know what to ask for, or we start hiring guys whose official role is like "embedded IT"; they work in other departments, but they report to IT.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  18. A little knowledge by Spad · · Score: 1

    The old adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies here. Yes, there are people who know what they're doing and will behave responsibly with a free run of your infrastructure, but the majority are people who just want to install Bonzai Buddy or that cool Bittorrent thing that lets you download movies.

    Even more dangerous are those who "know better" than the IT department and decide to set up their own services because yours haven't been configured correctly according to some guy they know on IRC. Next thing you know you've got rogue DHCP servers and all your desktop machines are PXE booting Gentoo.

    No; it's one thing to give a little administrative leeway to knowledgeable users who need it, but letting people run their own pet projects on company hardware is a disaster waiting to happen.

    1. Re:A little knowledge by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 1

      Agreed...kind of. I think it's ok to have them help on somethings, but it needs to end at desktop software and there should never be something installed on a desktop that can act as a server.

      I think it's ok to have limits....like no corporate data in access databases or no server apps on desktops or no home routers shall be installed and stuff like that but to out right revoke the abiklity to install software is just wrong.

      Trust them with little and they can be a great asset.

      --

      Gorkman

    2. Re:A little knowledge by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      I think you need to kick up the notch on what a "superuser" is. A superuser would not run Bonzai Butty.

      I think of a superuser who generally has some creative technical skill beyond the normal person. I would think even most tech support people I've known would not meet the "superuser" criteria. Think perhaps "application developer" -- where they were actually hired to create applications and such. Or maybe the level 2 and 3 support personnel. You know who I'm talking about, the folks who are truly wicked-smart but tend not to flaunt it.

      And a little policy goes a long way. I mean, give us some credit. Most "superusers" have probably even been IT people at one time or another. So give us the leeway to run those things (I mean that you *could* *in* *theory* run those things).

      But then also lay down the law: No Bonzai Buddy. No BitTorrent. No mp3's on the company storage devices. No DHCP servers. And if we catch you, the penalty is that we will revert you to a supermanageduser. And deal with it on a person-by-person basis.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
  19. Bypassing network lockdowns by truthsearch · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My last employer had firewalls that only allowed traffic through ports 80, 443, and an unusual port for VPN. I heard they also sniffed unencrypted packets, mostly to watch for viruses and breakins. Some of my coworkers wanted to use IM, although it was banned on the network. So I set up an encrypted squid proxy through my work desktop and home server. My whole team had IM and was able to communicate more efficiently.

    One day I got called into the boss's office. He says, "I hear you've installed IM on everyone's desktop." So immediately I think I'm in trouble. Then he says, "Would you mind setting it up for me? How did you get it on the network?" He realized it increased productivity and any personal use wasn't seriously inhibiting work.

    The point is don't hinder technology for a whole company only because you're afraid one ignorant user will bring in a virus. If power users want something, it's typically because it'll make them better at their job. Figure out a way to let them have it.

    1. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by ivanmarsh · · Score: 0

      The point is don't hinder technology for a whole company only because you're afraid one ignorant user will bring in a virus. If power users want something, it's typically because it'll make them better at their job. Figure out a way to let them have it.

      Except that in most cases YOU just hindered the technoplogy of the whole company because you took it upon yourself to work outside of what the IT department had planned and now they are wasting their time cleaning up what you did instead of working on what they are supposed to be working on.

      How 'bout putting in a request and maybe getting the real story from one of your IT guys about why IM isn't their highest priority?

      Where I work we are requied to STRICTLY adhere to a large set of FCC, FTC, SEC and PCI rules... but you go ahead and take it upon yourself to get the company sued and in trouble with the federal government.

    2. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have yet to see IM increase productivity.

      Phone works well for instant - email works well if you need a lengthened communication cycle with audit trail.

      IM just distracts if you are working - course if the work level only averages at 50% of peak most of the time then you may see a gain - how could you not...

    3. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by barzok · · Score: 1

      If your last employer was a public company in the US, your IM wasn't blocked because the IT department was bing a bunch of jerks. They blocked it because they're required to log all electronic communication for discovery in case of legal action, and since they can't log IM, they have to block it.

    4. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My last employer had firewalls that only allowed traffic through ports 80, 443, and an unusual port for VPN. I heard they also sniffed unencrypted packets, mostly to watch for viruses and breakins. Some of my coworkers wanted to use IM, although it was banned on the network. So I set up an encrypted squid proxy through my work desktop and home server. My whole team had IM and was able to communicate more efficiently. Ah, so you discussed sensitive company information via another company's servers. Brilliant! And I'm SURE you ALWAYS encrypted things, right? Wrong.

      And by the way, when your company FAILED it's 404 audit and you couldn't certify the financial results did you care? Probably not. (Insert other security requirements for your country and business here as applicable.)

      Instead of violating the security policy (for which you totally should have been fired, btw) you could have ASKED for an IM solution. When I was asked to open up holes to allow them to send company secrets in cleartext over the intarweb I offered a different solution and set up a jabber server.

      IT can help you much better when you come to us with PROBLEMS (as in "I want to be able to IM with my teammates) instead of solutions ("Open up firewall holes so I can use my favorite insecure IM app.")

    5. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      Except that in most cases YOU just hindered the technoplogy of the whole company because you took it upon yourself to work outside of what the IT department had planned and now they are wasting their time cleaning up what you did instead of working on what they are supposed to be working on. What cleanup? What hinderance? The administrators never found out about it. It was safe, encrypted, and used a very tiny amount of bandwidth. I agree it was "wrong" but it relieved a lot of frustration at zero expense to anyone.

      How 'bout putting in a request and maybe getting the real story from one of your IT guys about why IM isn't their highest priority? Why do you assume I didn't officially request IM? I did and was flat denied. My boss and his boss asked that we get IM and were also denied. We were told the risk of getting a virus over IM was too great. They even refused to let us set up and administer our own internal Jabber server. Even though it wouldn't be open to the internet they still refused.

      Where I work we are requied to STRICTLY adhere to a large set of FCC, FTC, SEC and PCI rules... but you go ahead and take it upon yourself to get the company sued and in trouble with the federal government. This was a company registered and monitored by the SEC. I was trained in SOX compliance. Since at no time did any of us use IM to communicate with a client, and our messages were encrypted, we remained in full compliance.

      But you go ahead and take it upon yourself to criticize people without knowing all of the details.
    6. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by nine-times · · Score: 1

      IMO, what you should have done is tried to push for an internal IM server that IT could run with whatever security policies they feel are necessary. I've worked for companies that block IM because of regulatory concerns or because of security concerns. We didn't want people using standard AIM clients, sending unlogged work information over the internet through unencrypted channels, but when push came to shove and people really wanted it, we set up an internal Jabber server.

    7. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by JakiChan · · Score: 1

      This was a company registered and monitored by the SEC. I was trained in SOX compliance. Since at no time did any of us use IM to communicate with a client, and our messages were encrypted, we remained in full compliance. And you could PROVE that to the auditors, right?

      I didn't think so.
      --
      "Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
    8. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      company data going over public IM networks with little to no privicy or security gaurantees strikes me as a bad thing.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    9. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Except that in most cases YOU just hindered the technoplogy of the whole company because you took it upon yourself to work outside of what the IT department had planned and now they are wasting their time cleaning up what you did instead of working on what they are supposed to be working on. What cleanup? What hinderance? The administrators never found out about it. It was safe, encrypted, and used a very tiny amount of bandwidth. I agree it was "wrong" but it relieved a lot of frustration at zero expense to anyone. ...and that's the problem: YOU are not the person qualified or more importantly RESPONSIBLE to make that decision on a company wide basis. If you aren't in IT you were not involved in the decisions made with the company management that decide the course of the company.

      Because they don't know, for all you know you've opened up a massive security hole that you know nothing about.

      How 'bout putting in a request and maybe getting the real story from one of your IT guys about why IM isn't their highest priority? Why do you assume I didn't officially request IM? I did and was flat denied. My boss and his boss asked that we get IM and were also denied. We were told the risk of getting a virus over IM was too great. They even refused to let us set up and administer our own internal Jabber server. Even though it wouldn't be open to the internet they still refused. Because you didn't mention that you did.

      So then you ask the question of someone whom the IT management reports.

      Do you and your boss make it a habit of arrogantly violating company policy?

      Where I work we are requied to STRICTLY adhere to a large set of FCC, FTC, SEC and PCI rules... but you go ahead and take it upon yourself to get the company sued and in trouble with the federal government. This was a company registered and monitored by the SEC. I was trained in SOX compliance. Since at no time did any of us use IM to communicate with a client, and our messages were encrypted, we remained in full compliance. That may be true for your case... I'd love to be able to trust end-users, but if you've ever worked in corporate IT you know that it's very rare that you can.

      Even with that said... you know you violated company policy and still see nothing wrong with that. So why sould the person who isn't as tech savy as you may be care any more than you do?

    10. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      You're right. I couldn't prove it. But this was started before SOX was passed and taken down before the company decided what they would consider to be compliant.

    11. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      That may be true for your case... I'd love to be able to trust end-users, but if you've ever worked in corporate IT you know that it's very rare that you can. Totally agreed. I think rare exceptions should be made on a careful case-by-case basis.

      Even with that said... you know you violated company policy and still see nothing wrong with that. So why sould the person who isn't as tech savy as you may be care any more than you do? I definitely see what I did as wrong. And I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, especially these days with increased regulations.

      Instead I think IT departments should listen harder to what their users are saying and make every reasonable effort to relieve frustrations. If they simply let us set up an internal Jabber network, with full logging and no connections outside the intranet, my team would have been very happy.
    12. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      Which is why there are IM clients like Trillian that give the option to encrypt messages end-to-end.

    13. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 1

      With IM, I can carry on several phone-style (near-immediate interactive) conversations simultaneously. Can't do that as effectively with either email or voice. I can also tell who's available (and how long they've been unavailable) so if they aren't around to give me an answer (and haven't been for hours) I know to try someone else. Most of the workers I interact with are in different offices or are telecommuters, so IM is cheaper than telephone as well. Just because you don't see a benefit in IM doesn't mean it's not there.

    14. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by JakiChan · · Score: 1

      Ok, could you prove it to the SEC then? They might have taken an interest in SOX.

      In other words violating the company's security policy is a fire-worthy offense, no matter what safeguards you take.

      --
      "Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
    15. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Instead I think IT departments should listen harder to what their users are saying and make every reasonable effort to relieve frustrations.

      This is unquestionably true. A large part of my job is to facilitate the productivity of my company's employees. ...and for the record I have always made an UNREASONABLE effort to do just that at the cost of sleep, health and sanity.

      If they simply let us set up an internal Jabber network, with full logging and no connections outside the intranet, my team would have been very happy.

      Keeping in mind the amount of people who are constantly screaming in their ears every minute of every day I'd have to say no, it's simply not simple.

      Let me ask you this: you install your (insert non-IT overseen project here), it's perfect, works great because you manage it well and costs the IT department nothing. It works so well it becomes mission critical.

      You get promoted, get a new job... or get fired.

      Now the system you set up with no help or oversight from the IT department is dropped in the laps of the IT department who were never given the budget, resources, man-power or time to take on the project in the first place.

      So... you have now backended a project onto the top of the IT depratment's priorities that is going to sap time, money and resources from other projects without having to go through any of the trouble that your IT departmnet has to go through to justify every decision they make and every dollar they spend.

      (People wonder why IT employees are always pissed off.)

      How does that have no impact?

      (Sounds a bit like I've had to deal with this sort of thing more than once doesn't it?)

    16. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My last employer had firewalls that only allowed traffic through ports 80, 443, and an unusual port for VPN. I heard they also sniffed unencrypted packets, mostly to watch for viruses and breakins. Some of my coworkers wanted to use IM, although it was banned on the network. So I set up an encrypted squid proxy through my work desktop and home server. My whole team had IM and was able to communicate more efficiently.

      One day I got called into the boss's office. He says, "I hear you've installed IM on everyone's desktop." So immediately I think I'm in trouble. Then he says, "Would you mind setting it up for me? How did you get it on the network?" He realized it increased productivity and any personal use wasn't seriously inhibiting work.

      The point is don't hinder technology for a whole company only because you're afraid one ignorant user will bring in a virus. If power users want something, it's typically because it'll make them better at their job. Figure out a way to let them have it. More productive??? that is so much BS, come on

      I'll refer this to "I dont know how to use e-mails and a phone"

      Like some people cant do a simple chart in word so they'll buy Visio to do menial task, i see these everyday, people not knowing what to use or rather not knowing to use the apps to their full potential.

      Should they be admin locally? No, never, no

      In Canada we have bill c192,and that applies to public companies, you need to have procedures and securities in place in order to protect the company from pretty much anything other than a natural disaster so that means,,,A hell of a lot of security,,,is it a bother? Yes but if we dont have this then the auditors will get us and if bad reports are made it could also means share holder instability because we failed to comply to basic security makinf the company lose money, they'll love you for it.

      Now if you are a small private company, hey man do what you want but when the shit hits the fan because you have left loose someone with some basic knowledge and they screwed up your network and caused some very high downtime,,,try to explain to managment your lack od disregard for basic IT principles and securities.

      i acknowledge that it becomes very high maintenance and a lot more paperwork but when federal law states what you have to do, it's a little hard to say , no problem, here's messenger

    17. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by truthsearch · · Score: 1

      I have to admit there is no good answer. And my temporary solution was not ideal, by any means. Developers (power users) get very frustrated by certain restrictions that limit their productivity, while administrators can't manage an unlimited set of systems and variables. Unfortunately I think there will always be a power struggle between IT admins and users.

    18. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by ivanmarsh · · Score: 1

      Which brings us to the inevitable, if unfortunate, conclusion of the problem:

      "We" are left to impose a limit on that set of variables.

      As the administrator that has complete power over every aspect of the network it's my responsibility to manage, any and all efforts I make to maintain security, maintain order and prevent end-users from violating company policy are justified no matter how draconian they are. ...and the end-users suffer even more frustration over restrictions.

    19. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I used it every day! Right around noon I would select my normal lunch table buds and type:

      Lunch?

      Much more efficient than walking to each person's cube.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    20. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Figure out a way to let them have it."

      The problem with that is if the power user has it then the rest of the sheeple see it and want it as well...

    21. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the right solution was an internal, corporate IM server of some description with convo logging turned on (we use IRC with a logging bot). Using an external IM service for corporate communications is, frankly, completely idiotic.

    22. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you shoulda gotten burned on this regardless of the increased productivity. You opened up a major attack vector into corporate network and gave possible malicious coworker an easy way to hide his track when doing mischief.

      Proper way to get the bloody IM working would be to submit a proposal to your bosses for internal IM server DISCONNECTED FROM THE WAN that would boost the company productivity and let the bosses handle asshats at IT. As you said in your post, you needed the IM only for team communication, not sending "I love you"s all day long.

    23. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you are dealing with IM traffic virus's aren't the main danger, though of course they are one.

      Unless you are using a 3rd party encryption package such as Secway or X-IM all your IM traffic, once it passes the SQUID proxy, goes over the internet unencrypted, ripe for anyone to read. Do you discuss sensitive internal issues over IM?

      Knowing that anyone on the internet could possible read them do you still think its a good idea?

      Yet another reasonable IT policy that was created for a good reason that many users do not understand.

    24. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right now the IT infrastructure I manage is small, so we can police things like this pretty easily. Everyone can install IM, if it doesn't involve one of the more retarded IM clients. If someone wants to put GTalk on their machine... I have no problem with that. I consider it an issue for their manager, given that they've been informed of my opinions on the matter (appropriate steps to mitigate risk, etc).

      Now, if you're talking about a larger organization (which we're headed towards) and someone sets up a proxy system to get banned communications through the firewall... my recommendation would be a write-up, signed by employee & manager, on file. Second time, you're a risk to the company and have demonstrated clear disregard for its policies and practices.

      Once a decision has been made, there are appropriate ways to deal with making changes you feel would be beneficial, and they involve convincing management and the IT Department. That sucks sometimes, I know. But intentionally bypassing network restrictions, particularly by use of something like unauthorized proxies, is completely out-of-line.

      There's a long list of reasons why a company might decide to do something like blocking IM, and thumbing your nose at the IT department and their efforts to protect the network is neither professional or wise.

      This goes double if I'm that IT department. :)

    25. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      And that's more or less what this whole thing boils down to.

      IT is the other 9/10ths of the iceberg, when most of your end users want to play with floating bits of ice.

      The licensing, the legal requirements, the auditing, the business need to never ever lose a byte, the cost of downtime, the cost of datacentres, and the overhead of admin staff, training, recruitment and retention that you may need when you implement a solution.

      *shrug*.

      So it goes. IT will always seem unreasonable to insist on a fully costed solution, because they know they'll end up in the firing line.

    26. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      I've used IM to quite some success in a distributed working environment. When you've IT staff who're 'multi-site' the ability to get IM (or something similar, e.g. IRC) to just do a simple query like 'hey, has anyone seen errorcode 0xDEADBEEF before?' without having to do root cause troubleshooting saves quite a lot of time and effort.

      I can imagine similar being useful in some office environments where staff are physically distributed for whatever reasons.

      IM however, introduces another overhead on auditing, monitoring, encryption, that means stuff like MSN really isn't a particularly good solution to the problem.

      Additional cost trading off on increased functionality.

    27. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      But if you scroll up a little, you'll see someone who's suggesting pretty much that, bypassing the firewall with a proxy to do it.

      Unfortunately that's the bottom line on the user empowerment - there's other stuff to think about. Licensing in particular is a good one - stuff that's free for home use, often isn't for corporate. And whilst there's always some who do know and think about the hidden constraints, there's also quite a lot who just don't realise. Unrestricted user empowerment is pretty much guaranteed that you'll get 'a few' who are doing something without fully thinking it through.

    28. Re:Bypassing network lockdowns by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      I'm fairly sure I paid money for my Trillian license backwhen. Have they changed that recently? I know we looked at SIMP (secure keypair IM proxy thing) which also cost money.

      It's probably worth the cost vs. productivity, but sometimes justifying that kind of thing can be hard. (especially as there's the hidden 'but you'll just goof off and chat to your RL mates' counter argument)

  20. Nonsense! Fire their Ass! by littlewink · · Score: 1, Flamebait
    I work for a large governmental entity that has policing powers and I assure you, such people are worthy of dismissal only. Once you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. As the article states
    He or she will do whatever it takes to get the job done without waiting for IT to sign off.


    They stop only when they're escorted out the door (or to jail) and then sometimes that's not enough.

    People who persist in breaking IT rules after multiple warnings are usually "control freaks". If you give them responsibility, they will end up assuming more than they were granted, arguing with administration, causing chaos and personnel problems.

    Best to nip this problem in the bud.

    - Been there, done that.

    1. Re:Nonsense! Fire their Ass! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      "People who persist in breaking IT rules after multiple warnings are usually "control freaks".

      Wow - pot meet kettle!

    2. Re:Nonsense! Fire their Ass! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, are you G2 or G6?

    3. Re:Nonsense! Fire their Ass! by Anarke_Incarnate · · Score: 1
      IT has a responsibility to maintain control. Lack of it will cause them grief or possibly termination. They don't necessarily do things just to make the end-user's life horrible. They do it because they are understaffed, underfunded and undertooled to make it both SMOOTH AND SAFE. They have dealt with users who are moronic, but unable to identify their own idiocy.

      In order to maintain some sense of structure, everybody ends up paying because Joe User wants to install Bittorent meanwhile Sally Sysadmin would have only installed the core fonts she needed and some chat programs to make sure that she can maintain an eye on her kid at daycare and her team at work.

    4. Re:Nonsense! Fire their Ass! by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      IT staff, however, are "control freaks" because its our jobs on the line when some idiot user causes data loss or a virus to take down our network. The problem users are control freaks because they don't like being told what to do. One is necessary to keep the network running smoothly, the other is a disruptive factor that potentially puts the whole network at risk.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  21. It's just typing with more semmicolons by Hognoxious · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Put them to work? Good idea - they can start by fixing the mess that all the other amateurs make when they start writing crappy apps and sticking their noses into design decisions they not only don't understand, but don't understand that they don't understand.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:It's just typing with more semmicolons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, looks like some of your users got mod points!

  22. Not a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't have a problem with this. I have 140 users split into various different departments. In each of these departments is a (fairly) technically able person. This means that the user will normally go to them first leaving me free to, uhhmm, reply to threads on /.

  23. Give them access to everything? by techpawn · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I'll get RIGHT on that. And when the share holders or customers ask for documentation as to why the system is down 25% of the time and we tell them "Oh, it's because we gave RandomUserX on the Docks Admin rights to speed up response time on help desk. It's cool, he has his MCSE!"
    I'm sure I could leverage getting a college co-op before getting the CIO to sign off on letting "Power users" run loose on the network to fix problems.

    --
    Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
  24. I gotta agree. by khasim · · Score: 2, Informative

    Just because someone can plug a device into a data jack does NOT mean they're a "SuperUser".

    Yeah, that might work at HOME. But in the OFFICE someone (me) has to be responsible for security of our data. That includes YOUR social security number in HR's database.

    If you do not like the "restrictions" you are working under, then explain to YOUR boss how much more money you'll make for the company if you get X. And your boss will talk to my boss and I will explain how much it will take to implement X (money, time, security changes, etc).

    If the net is an increase in profits, we'll probably do it.

    If it will open us up to a new risk WITHOUT an increase in profits, I don't care how much you love your idea. It's not going to happen.

    1. Re:I gotta agree. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      See, that's exactly what's wrong with your model. You (and your management overlords) think of everything in short terms of instant gratification of ROIC. You think that if I can't justify a piece of hardware or software that makes my job easier and how it translates into instant dollars, then it isn't worth your time fooling with.

      Foo. What about the cost of a turnover? Does anyone ever factor in THAT cost? How much does it cost to replace a seasoned employee, to regain the specific culture and knowledge that the old employee had?

      Well, it's exactly these kinds of frustrations that build up and make us superusers go, "Fuck it. I'm tired of this crap. They could never pay me enough." After all, time has proven that we are good enough to easily find work elsewhere.

      So I'm willing to risk installing something that goes around your puny and ill-thought restriction vs. you finding out and getting pissed off at me.

      And if you do find out, then I'm not a real "superuser" am I? A real superuser never gets caught.

      Now, I sound bitter. But right now I have my perfect dream job. And I also get a lot of leeway to be creative with my own machine. And I work for the military, no less! But I have dealt with so many companies in the past that had this Nazi-istic IT department that made it impossible to have a new idea or a creative thought.

      Just sayin'.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
    2. Re:I gotta agree. by Ambidisastrous · · Score: 1

      Agreed, although the net profit calculation is a little hard to explain to you boss when the only benefit is employee happiness. If (e.g.) I can get my job done without Cygwin but having it would be a little beam of sunshine in my work environment, depriving me of it might notch up my activity level on Monster/CareerBuilder. But obviously all I can say to my boss is, "It would mean a lot to me," and hope the message gets across. Personally, I usually strike up a conversation with someone in IT before asking my boss to intervene -- if there's a real risk I'm not aware of, I'd like to learn about that, and then I'll probably let the idea go willingly.

  25. SO . . . who's job is on the line . . . by mmell · · Score: 2, Informative
    when yon users get the company sued for copyright infringement? How 'bout (knowingly or unknowingly) probing outside networks?

    Writing code which floods the network with packets? Crashes workstations? Worse, crashes servers?

    Deletes logfiles? Rewrites config files?

    Sorry - if it's my name on the line for a given piece of equipment, I want control of that piece of equipment. I left a place last February where that wasn't strictly true - and I'm relatively certain my fellow outsourced contractors were breaking stuff. I never did decide if it was accidental or intentional, but the missing log files made me go "hmmm . . .".

    1. Re:SO . . . who's job is on the line . . . by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      I wish I could mod you up -- this is exactly the crux of the problem.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  26. Treated unhumanly by Joebert · · Score: 1

    It people don't appreciate being called "assets".
    Keep that in mind.

    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    1. Re:Treated unhumanly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the "t" was a typo?

  27. perfect example of stupidity: autorun by poetmatt · · Score: 1

    My work actually is forcing all computers with XP to turn off autorun today. The funny thing is, the reason is that someone had "spyware and/or viruses" installed from the disks.

    Really, do you think autorun is the issue here? I think it's safe to say that running Mcafee might not be the best idea to keep a computer safe (I seem to recall Clam doing a thousandfold better job), and also plain old stupidity from one of the users no doubt.

    1. Re:perfect example of stupidity: autorun by Aliencow · · Score: 1

      There is NO reason autorun should be on on a corporate network EVER.

      You don't need admin rights to get your documents and settings erased or ftped to a remote server by that "Nice 16gig USB stick you found on the ground!"

    2. Re:perfect example of stupidity: autorun by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      I agree :)

      However, to say it is due to virus/spyware when they have thousands of other loopholes (stupid employees) shows more things that are wrong.

    3. Re:perfect example of stupidity: autorun by Aliencow · · Score: 1

      Definitely, however, relating to your parent post, ClamAV is just not a very good enterprise desktop AV yet.

      WinPooch does real-time scanning, but there is a definite need for a centralized deployment and monitoring console as well as standard realtime scanning in ClamWin. Using WinPooch is slowwww and overkill.

      The scanning engine being great, I'm sure ClamWin + Realtime + Centralized console would be a killer.

    4. Re:perfect example of stupidity: autorun by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Yes, Clam does do a better job, but IIRC, Clam won't do scanning on access of a file -- it only runs in batch mode when scheduled. McAfee, crappy though it is, will scan files whenever a user or process touches them.

      For my money, I like Nod32 by Eset Software http://eset.com/.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  28. Sarbane Oxley ... two words like jail time by Shivetya · · Score: 1

    sorry, but I don't think letting anyone have their way is going to fly.

    try all they want but its my job to set in place what the auditors tell the big guys what we have to have to comply.

    no one wants to not be in compliance and subject to some idiot in government who one day got bad service/etc from someone in your company.

    so, if these power users can't confine their play to home then I don't need them here.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Sarbane Oxley ... two words like jail time by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      Then please do us all a favor and stay at whatever company you're with. I'd really rather not run into you.

      But please try to distinguish a power user from a superuser:

      A power user knows how to do some technical thing. A superuser also knows how, but knows whether that thing should be done or not, and what legal and technical consequences it will bring (copyright infringement, bandwidth, detectability, security risk).

      As a superuser, and in my current job, I would view an IT job as beneath my technical abilities. Yet I am managed by what they think is best for my work environment. 86% of the time, that's fine and dandy. But when I lack something I need, I might have to make a decision whether to fly under the radar, or have you reject everything I propose carte blanch, simply because your view is that I am "playing around" unnecessarily.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
    2. Re:Sarbane Oxley ... two words like jail time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And please god stay where you are as well, you might see SOX as something you can skip, I see it as gaol.

  29. Some dicks pop up because they're just curious. by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    It's not to get a pat on the head--there tend to be three reasons people poke their head up in class. (1) They're stuck in the overachieving freshman mentality, where they're effectively talking heads who aren't necessarily that productive. (2) Class participation counts towards their grade, and they need to spew up something once or twice a class to make sure they get that percentage of their grade. In terms things that are only tangentially related, maybe it's a choice between vaguely interesting BS and BS they've already covered in class. Which would you choose? (3) They're actually curious about something. Like a CS student who's learning about handles for the first time, who thinks `hey, could that be used for garbage collection?'

    Granted, those are for issues remotely related to the topic. Someone who raises their hand during a CS class and asks about the fall of Rome might just need to be whacked on the head.

  30. take one of these pills by suck_burners_rice · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    As an organization, the IT department should give the corporate users a choice. They can take the blue pill, which means their computer is managed by the IT department. People who aren't knowledgeable about the inner workings of their system and just want to get their work done without getting too sophisticated technically will probably choose this option. Or they can take the red pill and manage their own system, under one condition: The IT department has within it several 1337 h4x0rz who will be allowed to try and hack into these self-managed systems at any time that they wish. So long as they cannot find an exploit, the user is left alone. But if they find an exploit, that user has to buy everyone dinner. Or something along those lines. That way, people who want to control their own systems will have the opportunity to do so, but not in a manner that puts corporate data at risk.

    --
    McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
  31. Maybe, maybe not by Angst+Badger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It really depends on the organization. There may be some overriding legal or safety reasons why you don't want to let anyone out of the sandbox: end user apps may not place nice with air traffic control or nuclear plants. ;)

    On the other hand, some IT departments fully live up to the Dilbert character, Mordac, Preventer of Information Services. My IT department happens to be one of those, and the main consequence of my supervisor's blanket refusal to do anything that bothers him is that everyone, including his boss, comes to me to get things done. And that's okay with my boss, because his real objection is to doing anything unfamiliar, not the fact that it's being done somewhere.

    But that's obviously a dysfunctional situation. The problem is that our IT department -- and presumably many others, including some of the snitty, arrogant posters in this thread -- isn't doing its job. By definition, if the IT department is either preventing necessary work from being done, failing to help get it done, or imposing arbitrary obstacles to get out of doing work in the first place, the solution is not necessarily giving end users IT responsibilities; the solution is for upper management to kick ass and, if necessary, hire IT people willing to do their jobs.

    Contrary to some of the polarized views I've seen here, IT isn't always the problem, nor are end-users always the problem. Most often, it's a failure of both to work constructively and flexibly together and a failure of upper management to insist that they do.

    Of course, if the dysfunctionality in your company isn't going anywhere anytime soon, you may have to look for workarounds, and the solution proposed by the original poster might work in some situations.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Maybe, maybe not by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 1

      Woohoo! :D

      Couldn't have said it any better myself.

      Right now I am in IT and my boss is programming. Yep. Programming. I can't ask him for an opinion on something systems related. He has his door shut. My issue is he's not making sure things get done which is what managers are supposed to do!

      On the otherhand, at least he's out of my hair and I have somewhat of an excuse when something bad happens. Which it will.

      --

      Gorkman

  32. Not sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    guerillas belong in a zoo

    You're either being very clever, or you don't know the difference between a Guerilla and a Gorilla.

    If it's the first, well done. If it's the second, not so much.
    1. Re:Not sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      He is still waiting for his pat on the head though.

  33. IT's job vs employee's desires. by khasim · · Score: 1

    The biggest problem I see is that the employees who are trying this do NOT understand the full spectrum of the job assigned to IT.

    Yeah, you CAN find a way around X ... but what happens when the lawyers come in and want full records of X?

    It isn't just about keeping your computer safe from viruses. Most employees understand the single-user model of computing.

    What they do NOT understand is having multiple users hitting a shared resource such as a server.

    Or backups for recovering deleted files from yesterday _vs_ backups for recovering information from 3 years ago _vs_ keeping current files at a "disaster recovery" site for when the office building burns down.

    I've had to go back and recover email from years ago because of a lawsuit when our people did NOT print out important documents ... and deleted them when they quit along with the rest of their email. Yeah, it sounds good when you're only thinking of yourself. But that kind of logic does not work when it involves a company.

  34. I'm that guy who used to screw around... by Overzeetop · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...and even I think this is a BAD idea. You want to mess with your own PC, okay - there's some merit there for some people. Mess with the network - hell no. There are too many things that need to get done, and the ability for one person - even an otherwise knowledgeable person - outside of IT to screw things up is just too much of an unknown.

    I'm not usually one to chime in on the side of IT, as they often throw out the baby with the bath water, but letting people who's primary function is something other than keeping the network up mess with the network is just a massively bad idea. Screw up a workstation and one guy is dead for a day. Screw up the network and the whole company can go toes up.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:I'm that guy who used to screw around... by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

      Another true story: had a guy install Office 2007 (he just graduated and had a "free student copy" or similar) on his and a couple of coworker PCs. Before we knew it, several excel files had been converted and "broken" for the hundreds of other users because of that one jackass. We had to restore from tape (eww), and due to lack of cooperation/communication somebody or three lost a few days worth of data. Anyway, if we hadn't caught the problem soon enough, it would have been a much much bigger headache with tons of files being converted and likely tons of data lost. Last true story: One guy installed Vista on his PC! It was a "field PC" so it wasn't on the windows domain... anyway, that was another interesting development.

    2. Re:I'm that guy who used to screw around... by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've been a developer since the days that 8" floppies were the network. Currently I'm working on performance improvements for a data warehouse product. Our in-house network is running at 100M, but our customers usually use the product on 1G in order to get acceptable ETL performance. The two test servers were next to each other in the same room. I put in an IT request to set up a 1G connection between the two machines. The response I got was "our network is 100M, can't do it." After repeatedly explaining them how it could be relatively easily done without upgrading the whole building to 1G, and getting the same response, out of frustration I finally went to my boss and said, "here's an $80 switch we could buy that could get it done." We ordered the switch and are now happily operating a collection of machines in that room on 1G to each other. Our IT department is clueless about developer needs-- they assume all employees are only using CRM and office apps. Seems to me the solution ought to be a separate isolated network for the developers that they can hack on to their heart's content, but I suspect few IT departments have the savvy to figure that one out (ours certainly doesn't).

      I suspect that most of the developers here have found it necessary to work around our IT department in one way or another. All of us have admin rights on our desktops which is an absolute must for us-- I'm doing things like shutting down and starting up services all the time, installing and uninstalling software, creating users, tweaking settings. I'd be down waiting for IT actions constantly if I had to do all that through them, and I'd bet much of the time they wouldn't understand what I was asking for and couldn't figure out how to get it done anyway.

  35. As a confessed Super-User by fionnghal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can relate to this issue. My co-workers often come to me to fix their email and various other apps that have been screwed up by an incompetent IT staff. I try, I really do try to get my coworkers to call IT if their is a problem, but sadly, they often don't trust them. I have been accused of all sorts of things by various IT employees and none of it true or even provable if it was. The truth is mine is the only computer they are _not_ regularly fixing (or screwing up) here in my office.

  36. Funny... by Belial6 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bad attitudes like yours always crack me up. Why? Because, with the exception of the mainframe administrators, it is exactly the kind of user you are complaining about that CRATED YOUR JOB. No, I don't mean users. I mean those Arse-scratching chimps that think they are superusers. The PC in the work place is a direct result of people trying to get computing power under the radar of the mainframe administrators. So, if people had followed your advice 30 years ago, you wouldn't have a job.

  37. The problem with most IT departments. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Most IT departments think that they know everything there is to know about computers and the network. The problem is that they don't know half of the shit they think they do. In particular they usually know nothing about what their users need in order to be productive. Instead most IT departments focus exclusively on control, control, control. While control is great you must have an idea of what you need to control and why and that is where IT departments are out to lunch. Security is not the only responcibility of IT, usability is just as important. If I can't use my computer I might as well not even have it. Its just a waste of space and money if it is locked down so tight that I can't get my job done. Time and time again it has been shown that with physical access to a system you can gain control over it.

    Stop being a disabler and start being an enabler. Show people how to user their computers effectively while keeping them safe through education.

    1. Re:The problem with most IT departments. by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Security is not the only responcibility of IT But it is the responsibility IT can get fired / sued for when the %&#@ hits the fan. If I said I allowed random user FOO fiddle with server BAR, and it turned out that the security breach where millions of credit card and SSN records leaked started with server BAR because of FOO, both me and FOO would be FUBAR. FOO might find a job elsewhere, since FOO is probably a great programmer or something. I, however, would have had my professional reputation sullied, and I'd have to start coding for a living... Ech. Ptui!

      CYA, my anonymous friend.

    2. Re:The problem with most IT departments. by dave562 · · Score: 1
      Here is the other side of the coin. Unless you are in a brand new position, there was someone in the position before you who managed to get the job done that you've been hired to do. They didn't have to install a bunch of their own software to do their job. The thing is that the IT department may not know everything about the computers, but what they do know is what the organization AS A WHOLE needs. The manager of the IT department understands what the resources are and what the support priorities for THE ENTIRE ORGANIZATION are.

      If I can't use my computer I might as well not even have it. Its just a waste of space and money if it is locked down so tight that I can't get my job done.

      The way to deal with that kind of situation is to have your manager talk to the IT department and let them know that you are impacted. It has been my experience that the majority of the time they will work with you to get you tools that you really need to get the job done. As a user you have to be understanding about things like licensing and budget limitations. For example I work at a non-profit organization. Because of that we get access to a lot of software at extremely discounted rates. The flip side of that coin is that we need to be very strict with our installations. If we are caught out of compliance and lose our non-profit licensing status, we won't be able to run our network because the full cost of the licenses will bury us. What is the answer in a situation like that? Do we let you install some of your own software from home and run the risk of an audit turning it up and hosing 300 other users?

      The other issue is support time. Lets say you install some software from home. Two months later the corporate update server pushes out the latest round of patches. Those patches haven't been tested with your software and some sort of dependency issue crops up that hoses either your application that you installed, or an IT installed application. The IT staff then needs to spend x number of hours sorting that issue out, and during that time there are other users who are suffering from a lack of support because IT is supporting your personal application. Is that fair to the rest of the users?

      It has been my experience that IT doesn't simply say NO out of spite. They don't say NO because they don't think that you're competent. They don't say NO because they don't feel like they can trust you. The usually say NO because they already have a full plate and are running the organization with less staff than they really should have because IT is seen as a drain on the budget and management is always loathe to pour more money into the IT black hole because it doesn't directly generate profit for the organization in the same way that sales does.

  38. Reminds me of highschool by shellster_dude · · Score: 1

    When I went to highschool the network was ridiculously insecure. I spent a lot of time sniffing around and breaking into things. I had more access than the junior admin's did. The chief admin could have banned me, and in retrospect, he had every reason to. I didn't break anything, and I told him about all the security flaws I found. However, I didn't stay within the terms of the computer user agreement. The admin and I had a really good working relation. He allowed me to keep my derived super user powers, and in return, I attempt to figure out how to break things, and then help him fix the holes that would allow me to break things if I so desired. We both benefited from the arrangement.

  39. Depending on the context: absolutely spot on by mce · · Score: 2, Insightful

    First of all, it depends on the context whether this is a good idea or not. In some environments, the IT group is the one and only IT wizard. In others (esp. in companies where IT development and IT research are the core business), the official IT group often is not at all capable of even understanding what the engineers are doing and supposed to do.

    I've always worked (nearly 18 years now) in the latter situation. Once upon a time, I was one of those superusers in that I was had an IT degree, but worked in engineering (research, actually) where most of my collegues were non-IT engineers. They were very IT savy at a personal level, but generally missed the wider scope. So far so good. The not so good thing, was that the IT department had no clue whatsoever of what the real business needs in terms of IT were (and neither had the company's management). The consequence was an ever worsening war between IT and IT users, amongst other things resulting in ever more shadow systems. We solved this by establishing a working group that took care ensuring there regular was bidirectional communication between parties (I was one of the founding fathers and later on was the chairman for many years). This worked wonders. (Note: It worked so well, that when I finally left the company, the IT group tried to convince me to stay by proposing that I might join them in quite senior positions.)

    Part of the whole concept was to do exactly what TFA says: the real superusers were identified; they earned the trust/respect they deserved; and then gained the appropriate - for our context - access to specific systems. (I personally managed the whole repository of OSS as well as some commercial soft we had installed centrally on UNIX. No, I did not have root, as I designed the complete setup such that I did not need it, but it will also be clear that with that level of access I potentially could access a lot of data and that capturing root would not have been difficult had I wanted. Some superusers can be trusted afterall.) Many succesful applications were developed in the same way: some superuser developed - with the knowledge of IT - a prototype that was taken into production for a larger audience after review by the working group and possibly some clean up by IT.

    Actually, all this is nothing new. Strategic alignment between business and IT is a core part of IT governance. So is making sure that IT governance is not a buzzword hidden in a bi-monthly meeting between the CTO and CIO, both of whom generally do not understand the issues, but that it is something that is built into the whole system at all levels. And yes, this includes the superusers (at least the capable ones).

    Concluding remark: I've since obtained an MBA. As part of the IT course, I wrote a paper describing the complete history of IT management & governance at my previous employer detailing the above story at length. That paper made a very happy professor, as he considered that I was absolutely spot on. Afterwards he started using me as an in-class assistant for the remainder of his course.

    1. Re:Depending on the context: absolutely spot on by Mutatis+Mutandis · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I have the somewhat dubious honour of being put in charge of a similar alignment exercise, mostly after I commented on IT capability and alignment with our business goals in terms that are barely fit to print.

      To be fair to our IT people, they understood very well that there was a mismatch between IT capabilities and the needs of the company, and they support the exercise, from low down to the highest management levels -- with perhaps a few exceptions. And they really have a point when they highlight that the user groups have not been making it any easier for them, and I want to strongly support them in that.

      But the problem is that I haven't yet been able to get the IT-savvy people at the user side and the IT staff to work together as a team. It's a diverse team of specialists rather than generalists, and all have their own views and expectations. There also is an understandable but unwelcome tendency to use our meetings to release years of pent-up frustrations.

      Identifying the super-users and making them do the work wouldn't really help us: The potential super-users all have their own high workload, and they don't want to take on the IT workload as well. What we want (desperately) is to make IT work well enough to shoulder a larger part of the burden, and not take on more work ourselves.

      Can you offer any useful advice?

    2. Re:Depending on the context: absolutely spot on by mce · · Score: 1

      I don't have a lot of time right now - and I don't know your specific situation - but here are some thoughts:

      • It will require some commitment from your superusers. If they do not have time, it will require commitment from management to make some time. Without this you're doomed to fail, as you'll risk sending the wrong messages to the IT guys. This does not have to imply that the superusers take over IT workload on a more permanent basis (I did, as did some of my fellow superusers, but not all of us did). Doing some things "together" was part of making it a team. But then again, if a superuser is more than just very knowledgable, (s)he is active already and thus already doing part of the IT job. In that case, it's not an extra workload, but one that can actually be reduced if you can get IT to support the idea in wasy that the users are happy with or at least can live with.

      • One specific thing we did that helped a lot, was to move a UNIX admin who was working as a shadow (with root access) from the user side to IT, making it very clear that we as users are not after their jobs, and on the contrary were willing to give them back control they had previously lost as a consequence of all the wars. It will help a lot if you can find something like this too.

      • This may or may not apply to you: Try to organise the setup such that not everyone needs to be in on everything. People don't have the time for that, and in general are not superusers at all levels or in all areas anyway. We had a split in a UNIX working group (worked very well), a PC working group (worked less well, partly because we did not find a good chair(wo)man), and an overall one (worked OK). Had we tried to do everything-in-one, I'm sure it would have worked less well overall.

      • The venting of frustrations is likely to be around for some time. In our case it also took a few years to fully eliminate of it. The person in charge of the action must be a strong leader and a good diplomat at the same time to resolve this asap. (Note: Back when I co-kicked-off this thing, I was not suitable material: I was too young to be diplomatic in these matters and so far had been part of the fight, which is why we specifically chose a more neutral person to chair the working group for the first few years. De-facto, that person was not IT savvy, so from a purely technical point of view, he basically was mostly steered by me and two fellow group members. But he sure was good at dealing with that - stopping us when we went too far - and he did have a lot of credibility of meaning well for the organisation. By the time I took over, I had calmed down a bit and proven my technical as well as non-technical skills.)

      • Very important is that the people are willing to consider the opposite point of view and even defend it. I was a user representative and as such every other month or so I got some request from my community that did not make sense or that made theoretical sense but could not be implemented for some solid practical reason. In cases like these, I did not hesitate to side with IT and explain their p.o.v. back to my constituency. This created a lot of good will on the IT side, which then enabled me to get things done that they otherwise would not have accepted. That in turn caused my constituency to accept it when I told them that they would not get their latest and greatest fad by tomorrow. By the way: My IT counterparts were equally good at this. If a user request was reasonable, they too had the courage to go to their management and/or their team and support our point of view. That's, for instance, how we as users got Linux accepted as a fully supported desktop platform against the wishes of our very much pro-MicroSoft CIO: in our business (EDA) we just needed either UNIX (what we had up to then) or Linux.

      • ... (sorry, gotta run now)

    3. Re:Depending on the context: absolutely spot on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have sat on both sides of the fence, and done things bad and good to make sure that work got done.

      I believe that the underlying issue is a communication issue. People that work in IT tend to speak about technology in ways that confuse those that are not highly tech savvy. Mostly that is a side effect of how our brains work (the vast majority of SysAdmins are at heart extremely skilled and highly specialized problem solvers).

      The issue comes into focus when the people making the decisions do not know enough about technology to make sound decisions (this is management at all levels).

      Currently I am the IT Manager for a Fortune 500 construction company, and I face this problem every time I need to get something changed or something new implemented.

      I have not been with this company long enough to be implicitly trusted in everything I do (as was the last IT Manager), and my boss does not know very much about IT (but he is sharp and a nice guy).

      This leads directly to issues for the end users because I am forced to implement things incompletely, as the people that make the $ decisions simply do not grasp that there is NEVER an IT project as simple as the "super user" employee that came up with it thinks it is. Unfortunately almost always this person has been here far longer than I have, and so they win on the "implicit trust factor". If my boss had a better understanding of IT I would (very nearly) always win on the "technical accuracy factor".

      However this company is very fortunate in that I know directly what happens when IT allows themselves to be sucked into the Users Vs. IT war, and without exception the result is that everyone loses.

      I can see where users believe that IT makes policy decisions based on what is easiest for IT, and while there are times that is true, almost without exception the underlying reason for that decision is that IT simply does not have the resources to accommodate making the opposite decision.

      As the IT Manager it is my job to balance your need/want against my department's resources as the first factor in any decision. Me allowing something that makes your job easier, but costs so much in added overhead to IT that I have to hire another person to keep up is going to be called to account by my boss when it is realized (without question). At that time I had better have either obtained prior approval from him for that, or have a very compelling reason for having made that decision (no one can work without X, or X directly resulted in a 15% annual revenue increase, are such reasons).

      That step also involves me assessing whether or not my current staff have the technical expertise to implement/support your project, or if we will need to get someone trained (or hire someone with the required skills).

      That is another cost that users driving projects do not EVER see as part of the cost of their project. Almost without exception the IT department is expected to know how to do anything technology related, or be able to learn it without any company incurred training costs (my term for this is "learn it in 15 minutes").

      Once those concerns have been addressed I then have to assess the actual effectiveness of your project (is there a better way to accomplish the same thing, etc.).

      Once that is done, the solution's impact on the existing IT infrastructure has to be assessed (does it break anything, or interfere with anything, etc.).

      This entire process (and there is much more to it than what I've outlined) is costing the company money (mostly in my time, and research). Money that has to be considered part of the overall cost of the project (which is almost never calculated into the original cost projection).

      Now as a user what I've outlined above shouldn't sound unreasonable, but more times than not people think that it is overkill and I should "just know" (I often hear this as "can't you just give a straight answer"?). This is why I get paid, to make sure that all factors are being considered before acting, a

  40. Not a good idea! by pulse2600 · · Score: 1

    On the surface, it looks great - power users in an non-IT org doing things their group can use without distracting IT from more pressing enterprise wide issues, getting immediate help with basic desktop support problems without wading through X number of tiers in the corporate helpdesk.

    However, how can you expect these so-called non-IT IT people to keep in line with the path of corporate IT when it really counts? If a power user is subverting corporate IT policies, procedures, etc how could IT management keep him in check, since he is already disregarding corporate IT policy. For power users, it is easier to apologize than to ask permission...that is why they are doing what they are doing in the first place: they feel the need to subvert the system, to break the rules. They will continue to break the rules despite their acceptance. For example, will a power user recognize a company's desire to maintain software license compliance if they become accepted as "extra help" by the IT group because they installed their personal copy of photoshop on a work computer?

    Regardless of their official acceptance as "extra IT help" or not, the problem still remains - this person is doing something that they're really not supposed to be doing, and it can have disasterous effects. This is especially true in huge, global enterprises that have things like change control boards and IT labs in place to ensure that each little thing will not cause problems with something else.

  41. Doesn't everybody? by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 1

    Anybody who is any good is going to have ideas, and an enlightened organization will find a way to accomodate them.

    The ground rules where I work are pretty clear: we are expected to spend a bit of time playing with things on the side. Some of these have become products. We are expected to refrain from hacking important servers, flooding the network with garbage and similar misdeeds. If we break something, we are expected to fix it. I have all sort of things hanging off the network, have all sort of SDKs and neat little boxes and things kicking around, and, as a senior technical person, am expected to show good judgement in what I do with them.

    If I come up with something really neat, my boss wants to know about it.

    ...laura

  42. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  43. Where do you work? by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, they broke the machine didn't they?
    Yeah. And?

    Are you seriously saying that the company you work for would support you NOT helping an employee recover his system just because he broke it himself?

    But I'm not responsible for rebuilding a machine that has been rendered non-functional by a user who insisted that he knew what he was doing.
    No, seriously, the company supports that position for you?

    I always make this stuff clear when a manager requests these sorts of permissions for one of their people.
    Again, and the company supports that position?

    We support the standard configuration, once you deviate from that, all bets are off.
    That's a LOT different from what you've been saying.

    We only support our standard configuration. Yet if a machine breaks, whether from an employee's actions or not, we still repair/recover as much as we can.

    I'm fascinated that you seem to be claiming to work for a company that values your self-esteem over actual customer contracts.
    1. Re:Where do you work? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're being a jackass, but I'll respond anyway.

      If you build a system with tons of unsupported software, I am not responsible for reinstalling and reconfiguring all that software. Period. And that is absolutely a position that is supported by my boss and my bosses boss, and the only guy higher than that only talks to shareholders.

      I'll restore an image. I'll recover files, though frankly they should already be on the network share. I'll give you a fresh install. That's it.

      Why, you ask, would any corporate IT support such a radical position? Because that guy's time isn't worth more than mine.

      We've all got jobs to do and if I have to spend a week fixing a screwed install (and it'd have to be me or one of the other senior guys because the regular techs aren't equipped to do it), then a weeks worth of my work won't be getting done. That's more unacceptable to everyone involved than making one guy reinstall his own unsupported apps.

      If you're going to give them any extra permissions, they have responsibilities there. If they can't be trusted not to make a complete mess of it, then they should never be granted those permissions in the first place.

      The whole goal should be to make things more efficient and get more work done. If those things aren't happening, you're doing it wrong.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:Where do you work? by bastafidli · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Actually your tone and attitude show who is the jackass.

      I am not responsible for reinstalling and reconfiguring all that software. I dont think anybody asked you for this. Or me as as one of those users wouldn't ask you for this. If my computer gets screwed up, then I expect you to put it back to the working shape according to company standards and I take it from there.

      I'll restore an image. I'll recover files, though frankly they should already be on the network share. I'll give you a fresh install. That's it. That is what most such users would expect from you and anything more. Except with better attitude. The "that's it" attitude is the exact reason why many IT departments have so many reputations and if I can personally avoid them I will.

      We've all got jobs to do and if I have to spend a week fixing a screwed install (and it'd have to be me or one of the other senior guys because the regular techs aren't equipped to do it), then a weeks worth of my work won't be getting done. Your job as an IT guys is to support users. That's about it. If you have other duties than that, take it with your manager to better define your position or allocate resources. You are an expense to the company. You do not usually produce anything. Your value is only in one thing and that is how well can you enable other employees to do their job. If they have to put up with yout attitude during that process, it just makes you less valueable.
    3. Re:Where do you work? by boris111 · · Score: 1

      My company is run exactly this way. End-Users should have some personal responsibility. If I lose a day of productivity because I hosed my laptop that's between me and my manager to figure out.

    4. Re:Where do you work? by paeanblack · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you build a system with tons of unsupported software, I am not responsible for reinstalling and reconfiguring all that software. Period. And that is absolutely a position that is supported by my boss and my bosses boss, and the only guy higher than that only talks to shareholders.

      That's true today, but don't expect the status quo to last. This is no different from when people started bringing PCs into the office 25 years ago. Corporate IT said, "no way...use the mainframes", and the users brought PCs anyway. The users won.

      IT exists to manage things in a sane and orderly manner, but it can not and never will be able to proscribe useful tools in the long run.

      Don't ever turn a user request into a battle where your defense is "we can't support that." You may win that battle, but you will lose the war, every single time.

    5. Re:Where do you work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps what is meant is something like this...

      You have a standardized software image, standardized protections in place, and a configured standard location for saving data.

      If a user adds an application or does something else that breaks the computer such that it needs to be re-imaged, you save data residing in the standardized location, and then re-image. If the user loses data from some personalized, unsupported application he or she chose to install, too bad. The concept of "unsupported" means just that: you want it, you support it, you backup your own data, you fix it when it breaks.

      But just because someone doesn't like the standard software image and wants to use another application to accomplish the same thing, that does not mean IT should be required to support that oddball application as well. Why have standards at all then?

      If there is a legitimate need to support applications that are currently unsupported, by all means it will be researched and supported. If not that exact application, then something that accomplishes the same task(s) without introducing incompatibilities or instability. Remember, that's the purpose of standards anyway: ensure compatibility, stability, and a productive environment. Standards don't exist for IT to "lord over" the end users.

      Unfortunately, who you are tends to impact how strictly policies are followed.

      -M

    6. Re:Where do you work? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the two examples cited, I could easily see situations where it'd be reasonable to say 'stop it or you're fired'. Setting up a random WAP that nobody in IT knows about can result in random people in the parking lot having access to your network, and storing company mail on an ipod is a massive breach waiting to happen - the only reason blackberries are allowed most places is because they can be bricked remotely.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    7. Re:Where do you work? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My tone? You started this conversation accusing me of slighting Joe User, which has nothing to do with my original statement, and then you persist in trying to point out my "hypocrisy" in saying that users with special privileges won't get special treatment!

      And no, I don't believe that it is IT's job to spoonfeed users. That is old thinking. You should be teaching them to do basic tasks themselves. 70% of the IT work here is in developing and deploying new systems, and the rest of the work is split between maintenance and user support.

      We lock down the average user to the point where there is effectively no way that they can break their system. If it gets broken, we switch it out with an identical system and they're up and running again in no time, because all their files and emails are stored remotely.

      The users who require more access are granted it, but they are not given extra tech support. They want a fresh system, no problem. But they never want that, because that would be just the beginning of their work.

      And my value is creating new things; some of which help employees do their jobs, and some of which remove the need for anyone to do that job. One day I may automate myself out of a job; it's certainly possible. But it's a lot better than trying to manufacture a job for myself by fostering a culture of dependence.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    8. Re:Where do you work? by gomiam · · Score: 1
      Don't ever turn a user request into a battle where your defense is "we can't support that." You may win that battle, but you will lose the war, every single time.

      Oh, no, not every single time. If the user wants to have that request, let _him_ be the one to argue why. At my previous workplace users were used to having administrative privileges. We managed to explain convincingly why they usually shouldn't, and the ones who complained about it had to do it in a reasoned way (several got a privileged account along with repeated requests to use it only for installing/uninstalling software).

      I'm repeating the process at my current workplace and it seems to be taking quite smoothly. Now, if I can get them to drop all the unlicensed software they want installed (and use licensed/free/open/freeware software), I'll be really happy.

      Of course, all this requires taking the time to talk to each user and work with them to bring their systems as near to compliance as possible. There will always be rogues: if they pose a problem, you just get them isolated so they won't mess with other users' computers.

    9. Re:Where do you work? by FirstNoel · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately you are right. IT should fit the business, not the other way.

      If the business has need for iPhones, Lord knows why, then it should be added to the IT support contract. That said, IT's customers should be willing to pay then for the increase in support costs.

      People outside of IT tend to think of IT costs as non-existent. They're not, every additional printer, PDA, phone, etc, etc ... have cost, support and maintenance at the most basic level.

      IT should not just give in to the inevitable outcome though, we need to challenge the users. Make sure they know what they are really getting themselves (and us) into. They may win but they'll be more knowledgeable in the long run.

      enough rambling...back to setting up a test system...rassinfrassin users...rassinfrassin...

      Sean D.

      --
      "Hmm. I am to metaphor cheese as metaphor cheese is to transitive verb crackers!"
    10. Re:Where do you work? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      This adversarial approach to IT support is not in the best interests of the company.

      It's in everyone's best interests to standardize on a hardware and software platform. This minimizes the learning curve for the users, and minimizes the support costs for IT.

      However, there are usually many and frequent exceptions that need to be made. Most of the time, non-standard hardware or software is easy enough to support, but certainly more expensive than standard products But if those costs are less than the benefit that this product brings to the business, then it's obvious that the business should permit this deviation.

      Who should support it then? Who is more qualified to support it? IT doesn't know about the product, but the user probably doesn't know much more. IT is probably full of geeks that can figure it out, while the user may not be a power user. Except in perhaps rare circumstances, IT is more qualified than the user to support this non-standard product.

      So, we've established that it's good for the business, and that IT is the best group to support it. What's the problem? "Oh noes, more work for me!"

      The job of IT is to support your users. If your users must occasionally deviate from the standard, IT should be obligated to empower them to do that. Let the user justify what they're doing, and show how this will benefit the business. It will cost more for IT to support them, but if those costs are less than the benefit that this product brings to the business, it's absolutely irresponsible for IT to refuse to do this.

      Many IT departments have this delusion that their users work for them, not the other way around, and that since they're in a position of "power" over their users by being able to set standards, that they should be permitted carte blanche to do everything they want to minimize their own costs by preventing their users from being effective. This is a shitty way to leverage technology in any business.

    11. Re:Where do you work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't ever turn a user request into a battle where your defense is "we can't support that."

      The obvious answer is for the IT department to evaluate requests and decide what user requests are worthy of becoming supported projects.

      For example, one person wants to try out a new piece of software. He's on his own.

      Small group of people all want to try out the same piece of software, that they may later want to adopt for the whole department. This becomes a pilot program. It's important here that IT spells out exactly how much work they're willing to do to support that program.

      Lots of people would benefit from the same software = IT should be thinking about making a plan for deployment.



      The key here is to keep IT in the loop when people are at the considering stage, so that IT can be a part of the process of planning, including preparing for potential deployment, security, or support problems. If you leave it to step three, you're screwed, because people have already dug their heels in.

      If you catch them earlier in the process, then you have the chance to make recommendations and to educate them about what the actual cost of the project is going to be. If you do it after, people are going to be more likely to feel stubborn and resentful.

    12. Re:Where do you work? by Vukovar · · Score: 1

      I couldn't agree more. I spend days fixing user-caused problems because they believe they have the right to do whatever they want. They have to have admin rights - a nightmare for me - in order for some thrid party proprietary software to run. When they garbage that machine up and whine in their sales meeting that they can't do their job because they're too busy infecting their machine with garbage porn files, it fall to me to fix it. I call bull. My job is not to continually bail out the user and recover their data; it is to keep things running as best as possible on a non-existent budget, keeping failing servers running and making sure I've got enough test vmware setups as my fallback - that way the whole company can still operate, even if management won't spend money. Software vendors tell me "there's no fix" for a problem, users think that every program is compatible with their OS and other software, and expect ME to make it all work. You lost your data during reinstallation #9? Gee, I don't know if those network drives are throwing you off, but it acts as a repository for your data - either on the general network or your personal folder. Seeing as I have 200 users to support in two states, I'm not sympathetic to end users "getting the job done" when it causes me headache. Seeing as how my primary responsibility isn't to correct user stupidity 24x7, I would suggest that if they have a better way, they approach me with it. If I don't agreee, they are free to go to management. If I think it is sound and management doesn't agree, then I tell them to pester management for it and show them why it's valid. If it still gets shot down, then that's unfortunate, I sympathize, but letting users circumvent the system, software, and process is equally a disaster.

    13. Re:Where do you work? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      I doubt it. IT generally moves at a faster pace than the users, in terms of OS, and common applications...At least we do here...Every time I hear about a shop that is "standardized" on IE 5.5 or some shit, I throw up a little.

      But still, I'm forever dealing with people who are trying to "show" me things like Google Docs. Yea, wow, I know, it's been out forever. Now tell me how you're going to make it SOX compliant. There are reasons we use certain applications.

      Generally we get more resistance when we're introducing new software than we do complaints about not using new-er software, and most of the time when we get complaints about not using newer software it's stuff we wish with all our hearts we WERE using (and sometimes its stuff we have installed on our machines so we can get used to using it by the time the budget money for the upgrade materializes).

      What I'm talking about is more in terms of development environment crap. You upgrade activeperl on your system and all your hand-compiled .pm's go tits up...That's just not my problem. I may feel for ya, but we had an agreement.

      I taught a guy a lot about how to not have that problem, after he had that problem, and I even loaned him a machine that he could use to host his apps while he un-borked his system...But I didn't fix it for him, and he didn't ask me to because we had a long discussion before I agreed to let him do his thing.

      I'm not a mean guy, and I still do a certain amount of hand-holding (well, okay, I delegate the hand-holding to other people...but it gets done)...But for users who want real access to the systems? You have got to prove you deserve it.

      If someone from IT came to me and asked me to help them fix their screwed up system, I'd laugh at 'em. Some people may not be great at it, but we all maintain our own junk, and I expect the same from the other users we allow to admin their own machines.

      I don't think that's unreasonable.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    14. Re:Where do you work? by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Where I work, IT is full of empty space, most of all. We've lost about 70% of our staff since the 90's.

      So no, we couldn't bring it all down to IT to support every new application: we don't have the manpower.

      Now, when I got here, this shortage of manpower had resulted in draconian policies toward installed applications, because there weren't enough people to fix all the problems with the regular applications, more less user-installed stuff.

      Now, instead of treating the users like children, we teach them to solve their own problems. We teach certain users to be able to solve other users problems. And we allow a very few users access to the sort of resources that normally belong solely to IT, and with those resources comes an expectation that they will use those freedoms wisely, and that they will be expected to maintain anything they install that is not part of our standard software package.

      I still have tons of headaches, but comparatively few of those headaches are user related, and we have a lot fewer complaints.

      Call it adversarial if you like.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    15. Re:Where do you work? by arkhan_jg · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Your job as an IT guys is to support users.

      Yes, yes it is. userS, plural. Most senior IT guys are wearing some form of network or sysadmin hat, which means their work is important to 10's or hundreds of individual users. You're expecting a senior IT guy to drop everything, stop working on his other priorities that support many others users in order to pander to one prima donna who expects his machine to be given top priority despite the fact he broke it in the first place with unsupported software.

      On top of that, you expect a senior guy to fawn over you and treat you like you're super-special - holding his own and pointing out that he has other important things to be doing that support many other users instead of major effort to recover a self-inflicted injury mean you accuse him of an attitude problem.

      IT time is precious and limited, there's never enough to go round. Despite what you may think, you and your 'IT department avoiding' attitude are the problem here.

      You try and pull such a hissy fit in my department, me and the director would tell you where to take a hike. IT are a whole company support department, not your personal carpet department. You know what you sound like?

      "I pay my taxes, I pay your salary. How dare you give me a parking ticket, I'm your boss I am!"

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    16. Re:Where do you work? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      If that guy built a system with a ton of unsupported software, who are you to say he doesn't need it? Why sticking head up your ass, "it's unsupported, I refuse to help you with that". Why won't you provide a generic backup to the users, so if they have a ton of custom software, they can just recover it from backup? If you see users facing problem, the answer is not "don't do this then". Move your ass and look for a solution of "one size fits most", they exist. Then once you have 95% of the user base covered by that solution, you have enough time to approach the remaining 5% on individual basis and take time solving their problems? Sure the 5% will occupy 80% of your time, but the 95% will occupy less than 20% of your time. And sure you'd like to work less than 20% of your time and slack for 80% of your time, but that's not what you're paid for.

      And why do you believe your time is worth more than time of that guy? Your job is to make it possible for that guy to work. It's money earned for his work that pay your salary. If you don't enable him to work, you're not earning your salary. No, you don't get paid for fixing things, you're paid for things not being broken. If they break and you let them stay broken, you're not doing your job. Why they broke or who broke them is entirely moot.

      I'm in a company where all the users have admin rights on their computers. There's a nightly backup program running, the IT applies centralized updates, there's obligatory antivirus and we're behind a good firewall, but the users are free to install whatever they wish as long as it's legal. If you break stuff, the IT staff will help you. If it's non-standard, you're queued low-priority, but not ignored. If you screw up bad, everything is recoverable. Your desktop has nightlies. All development and production servers have hourlies. They are accessible as easily as cd .snapshot from any directory anywhere, ever, and 99% of times you can fix things yourself using these. If you screw up bad, say DROP DATABASE TYPO; then you call IT and they fix it for you. If you break your desktop, you recover it from backup yourself. It's easy.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    17. Re:Where do you work? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      A business that fails to fund its IT department in a way that its users can effectively leverage technology simply has no interest in leveraging technology. That's something you'd have to take up with your management. Point out how wasteful it is for users to be spending their time (the company's money) working on things that IT should be more qualified to handle. Bonus points if the salary difference is high (say, a VP making $200k trying for a few hours to get a SQL server installed on his desktop, versus an IT tech at $50k that could have had him up and running in 30 minutes).

      "Saving money" by reducing IT frequently just moves costs to other non-IT departments, and since the people in those departments probably can't do the IT function as efficiently as IT, this could be a net loss for the business.

      Of course, I don't have all of the facts with respect to your individual situation. I'm speaking in generalities.

    18. Re:Where do you work? by dbIII · · Score: 1

      They don't quite see it that way. The week where you decipher and rebuild a complicated setup is expepted to be done by these people in addition to the normal work becuase the unpaid overtime and lack of sleep on your part is seen as less important than their hobby. The reality is that if some user deletes Microsoft Office and other files at random to make room for more mp3 files they are not the ones working on it until 11pm and there is no consequence to them. There is also a lot of magical thinking where many users believe you can diagnose all computer problems the instant they annouce "it's stuffed!" and then want it fixed in an unreasonable time frame forgetting that there may be much higher proirities than them. Some people get very jealous of proirities. The most bizzare examples I've seen was the guy that would run into the server room with minor demands for which he wanted instant resolution (eg. longer telephone cord) when major production failures were in progress (server room aircon, phone sysems and modem bank for three of the times) and the nasty old woman that changed her default printer once a week so she could spend time complaining about her job to whoever had to change it back. Locking the server room door at busy times resulted in loud banging, a demand to load paper in the photocopier and then a complaint to management! Sometimes I think each IT division should have a childcare assistant to look after the people that just want attention.

    19. Re:Where do you work? by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      Because IT departments very rarely run on a 1:1 admin to user ratio. IT support costs money. Most companies are interested in keeping that cost down.

      The most effective way of doing this, is blanket standardisation. We've got around 50k users to support, in an environment that ... well, let's just say data control is sensitive - there's Sarbanes Oxley to worry about, and then there's more generic 'we deal with other people's money' to worry about.

      The only way this can realistically be done is by a very severe system lockdown. I mean NO unapproved software, no admin access, hell no pen drives, or external email access.

      It's not because it's unsupportable - I can do a pretty good impression of 'best efforts' support on anything out there. It's because supporting several thousand 'unique and special snowflakes' who may or may not have a clue is just not viable.

      Yes, there's users out there who 'do their own thing' and are not a problem. But I don't trust my users to think of the consequences of their actions, when it comes to installing 'free stuff', or 'reconfiguring it because it's better this way'. So I don't let them, because that way I KNOW I have all their data, when it inevitably comes crashing down and needs recovery.

      IT lockdown isn't to piss the users off. It's because when you're scaling large infrastructures, the only way you can do this without it being a daily cluster-fuck is by standardizing, and preventing deviations from the standard without a really good business case, and money in place to cover the additional costs incurred as a result.

      If you think MSN is really important, then great, make a case, and maybe we'll do a company wide rollout. But don't forget we have a LEGAL OBLIGATION from all manner of ugly laws about insider trading, and business stuff, to put in place stuff as part of it. I don't like the fact I have to record every damn email going through our systems, but I _really_ don't like getting millions in fines for not doing so.

      My time isn't more important necessarily than an individual user. However my time _is_ a finite resource, that's contented. If one user has a knock on impact on 'a few thousand' by tying up me or my team with a problem, then THAT's when there's a problem.

    20. Re:Where do you work? by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      No. The job of IT is to support ALL your users.

      One user who knows best is not on the radar. If they're truly right about a business need for a software or functionality, then great, let's roll it out to everyone. But lets do so whilst actually thinking about backups, compliance, maintainability, licensing and all the other ugly thing that end users rarely need to care about.

      IT support costs money. It's a contended resource, and contention ratios can be very high indeed (my 6 man team supports infrastructure that has an impact on around 50k users for example). The BUSINESS gets to decide whether it's more important to standardize, and build for maintainability and rapid deployment, or whether it's more important to let your unique and special snowflakes ... feel unique and special.

      Most businesses feel that keeping IT costs down is more important than users feeling empowered.

    21. Re:Where do you work? by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      I'm not. His business is.

      I'm a pretty laid back IT guy, who does stuff like run servers at home, and fiddle around with raid arrays because 'it's a laugh'. I can do a pretty credible impression of supporting ... more or less whatever.

      But in the business place my time is a finite resource, and it costs money.

      If you want to put your 'unsupported software' on there, then you cannot just do it, because that way leads chaos, insanity and mayhem. You have to make a business case for why the software you want on there is worth the additional effort, infrastructure, training, development time and licensing costs.

      If you can, then great, we'll roll it out. We'll come up with a solution that's compliant, backed up, reliable, maintainable, and scalable. And possible for our support staff to diagnose and fix in sensible time frames, remotely.

      But it all comes at a price - man hours are not free, backup tapes are not free, hard disks and servers are not free, and licenses are not free.

      Even if it 'seems free' becuase you're not paying directly for the IT staff, 4 hours of support _does_ have a cost. It is the business that incurs this cost, and the business that therefore has to decide whether it's prepared to pay this cost.

      MOST businesses decide that the additional cost of J Random User installing whatever he feels like, whenever he feels like is unsustainable.

      In IT, almost anything is _possible_ but there's always a tradeoff of price vs. functionality.

    22. Re:Where do you work? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      But in the business place my time is a finite resource, and it costs money.
      If your time is too limited to provide a reasonably accessible and nonfascist systems, then your company is just a cheapsake. Of course you can cut down costs by employing one admin to support 50000 users, then the admin will be barely able to get the work done by having 50000 exactly identical maximum-lockdown systems. But one admin for 50000 users means the company will be out of business the next year and it's a good idea to run while you can. There's no need for 1 admin: 1 user, because users don't need the admin all the time. Two admins can very well support 1000 users without being a fascist though. 940 of them will take less than a hour a day off their schedule, the remaining 60 may take up to 6 hours a day. Of course you can cut costs and fire one of the admins, then the remaining one will have to lock down systems of the employees. Then most of the 60, usually most creative and productive people will quit and take jobs at the competition, and the one admin, sweating day by day will support 960 always complaining drones.

      You have to make a business case for why the software you want on there is worth the additional effort, infrastructure, training, development time and licensing costs.

      There you go, you're the kind of admin who rises barriers instead of allowing for opportunities.

      So I have to write a 60-page report stating the additional effort will be fully carried by me myself, that the infrastructure is in place because there's still 75GB free on my 80GB drive and the CPU is running idle most of the time, that I got the training at school, that development is covered by open-source volunteers and licensing costs are zero. Then you run the report through three middle-level managers, five lawyers, let it rest on your desk for three months, get CEO's signature and then log in and toggle a checkbox in 'permissions' tab of my account.

      If, by a slim chance, I broke my computer by installing the app without your approval, you'd need 15 minutes to restore it from backup. But by requiring me to make a business case you wasted 8 workdays of various people on making decisions and hindered my productivity for three months. It means instead of providing value by your work, you create losses. The company would be better off firing you.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    23. Re:Where do you work? by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      Funnily enough, most companies are interested in making a profit. That's not 'being a cheapskate' that's 'being efficient with resources'. My IT department budget ... well, there's a lot of things it has to cover. Letting you play with toys on company time isn't actually all that high on the list.

      And yes, I do raise barriers. Because for every user out there who know's what they're doing, there's about 100 who _think_ they know what they're doing. And I can, and have supported that. Where I am at the moment, the business is not prepared to pay for the overhead that implies.

      Infrastructure already in place is all well and good, but ... well, I note you've just commented on having a 75Gb free on your drive, but then have referred to restoring it from backup.

      So I assume you want it backed up? Which means I need to ensure your machine is backed up, and I need to ensure that it's done regularly. And then I have to take account of the fact that you've increased the data volume by a factor of 16, which I assure you is far from trivial.

      And then there's the question of software maintenance - who gets to patch it? You or me? Who gets to check that it doesn't have interoperability issues? Who gets to troubleshoot when it doesn't work?

      Your time has a cost. My time has a cost. One or other has to deal with all these problems. If the cost justifies the gain of the software, then yes, get installing.

      No, you don't need the 60 page report. As simple as pointing out what you just did, and maybe factoring in the other considerations that you didn't, should be enough to get your app deployed. But that still doesn't mean it's you who gets to do it. Sometimes your time is worth little enough that that's fine, but more often it's done in a centrally supported fashion

      I may be the admin who raises barriers, but you would seem to be the kind of user who feels they should be allowed to just do stuff because they think it's fine, without much regard for the fact that what you're actually being paid for is something else entirely. As the unique and special snowflake that you are, I'm sure you are entirely capable of doing something that's not covered by the general business support arrangements, but if it improves your productivity, then surely there's a case to be made that it improves everyone's productivity?

      And if it's not, then stop wasting time, and get back to work.

    24. Re:Where do you work? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      I think perhaps you misunderstood my post. If you have one or two users that have very specific atypical job requirements (say, developing graphics in a company that normally doesn't), they may need some specialized hardware or software (say, a graphics tablet and high-end graphics software) that is most certainly not on your standards list, and is actually undesirable to add to it, because it only applies to these two users. This has nothing to do with making users "feel" empowered. It has everything to do with ensuring that your users have all of the necessary tools to effectively do their jobs. Telling them to fuck off and support their own damn non-standard products does not help the business achieve its goals. Whether or not the users need to use those non-standard products should NOT be your decision.

      I am not advocating that users be allowed to install arbitrary products without a valid business justification. I am advocating that where deviations from the standard are legitimate (i.e. sanctioned by their management), they be allowed and be supported in the most efficient manner possible, which usually means by IT.

      That support doesn't even have to be complete. Nobody expects an IT department to be an expert on everything IT-related. If someone's using a non-standard hardware that can't connect to their computer because they're getting an error message about high-speed vs. full-speed USB, what the fuck does it matter if the device is on your standards list? Get them to move the device off of the lower speed USB hub. Stop playing the part of a bureaucrat on a power trip.

    25. Re:Where do you work? by fltsimbuff · · Score: 1


      These is something you seem to be missing.

      Supporting random tools that different users have means that the IT department needs to be filled with people that are knowledgable about not just the standard set of software that the company uses, but other software as well. They need to be higher quality IT staff.

      The way the industry is moving, is towards offshoring all the IT they can, and hiring miserably inadequate IT people at low wages, to follow cookie-cutter troubleshooting.

      The industry CANNOT move towards this, AND move towards supporting everything the user whims to install on their workstations at the same time!

      In the end, *everybody* loses. The end user, the IT professionals, and the ticket monkeys.

    26. Re:Where do you work? by fltsimbuff · · Score: 1


      You obviously have no idea how IT is run these days. Every support position I have ever had, or seen, has had more work to do than can realistically be accomplished on the desired timetable.

      IT is not a "wait around until there is a problem" profession, it is very much about prioritization. Quite frankly, individual users using non-standard and unapproved software is NOT a priority when you have other issues to resolve.

      An IT person's job and time can be far more valuable than a 200K/year exec, because they are keeping those exec's up and running, as well as systems of MANY users. If an IT worker can help get 3-4 people's systems back up and running again in the same time it takes them to fix one person's nonstandard software, then the priority here is clear. Not only is this logic, but it is also POLICY with many companies. Many CEOs even insist on this as policy to save $$ on IT, up until THEY are the ones making the request. Then they are the exception.

      There may be a very few IT jobs out there where the techs sit on their hands 80% of the time, but I haven't seen them. IT staff, particularly at the larger companies, are understaffed, underfunded, and the top-level execs will quickly trade in competent and knowledgeable IT people for a handful of barely paid automatons to save a buck.

    27. Re:Where do you work? by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      I was the kind of admin who supported a lab of 50 users. Not a single one of them had the same setup. There were five different SUN machines, there were all kinds of MS Windows and a few DOS boxes, BSD, Linux, most machines dual-boot, some triple-boot. There was random hardware attached to random computers as per need of individual users, and what could be made shared over the net, was shared. The infrastructure was extended as budget allowed it and needs dictated, without any centrally managed system of upgrades.

      The users would simply not accept stripping access to their machines, not that I ever tried to. They all had very various specializations, and very specific needs. There was a some of specialistic, expensive software, there were hundreds of trial versions of what was being released new in the domain and the users had no other way to stay up to date with state-of-the-art. As I understand you, in your domain one admin for 50 users is not cost-efficient. One for 500 may still not be. In my domain, the work done by the 50 users was well worth my salary, and giving them freedom to do whatever they wished to their machines while smoothly fixing all errors as they happened, was essential to smooth operation and produced more revenue than savings on the IT dept would produce. These weren't number-typing drones, these were creative people who needed all the freedom. So maybe your approach makes sense where you work. At my work your career would be short.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  44. my experience... by matang · · Score: 0

    i've been some variant of a sys admin for eleven years. my experience has shown by far that the worst user isn't the guy trying to set up his own wifi or hack his iphone to work with exchange, it's the ones that really have no idea what they're doing but don't want to bother IT with their requests. they try to find work-arounds, don't report when things stop functioning, and just generally cause ten times more harm than good by not following any guidelines, all in the name of "well i know how busy you guys are". yeah, i'm busy and it's certainly not my fault that we have an IT staff of two for 130 users, but letting me know on monday that something broke last wednesday but you have to have it up and running today is the cause of half of the problem. i just see a lot of complaints about protocol from people who never follow it in the first place. i can't fix your network/hardware/software or the way we do things if i don't know it's broken.

  45. Multiple Reasons by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    The reason superusers go rogue is usually frustration,

    I have to disagree in general. That may account for some, but the worse roguers are just tinkering addicts. They tweak for the hell of tweaking, like an explorer in a deep dark cave.

  46. IT not doing their jobs by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

    Two reasons that cause people to bypass IT rules - 1. IT not doing their jobs. 2. IT making all their policy and architecture decisions based on what is best for IT rather than what is best for the users.

    e.g. #1 Newguy arrives at work and is given new PC by IT guy. IT guy didn't set up the network printers on the PC. Newguy can't print. What is better ? a. newguy calls help desk, opens ticket, 45 minutes later IT sets up network printers or b. I walk over and set up printers for him, time elapsed 2 minutes.

    e.g. #2 We used to have our own mail and CAD licence server at our office. IT decides to make their life easier by centralizing all mail and CAD license servers in one office 4 timezones away. Much easier for IT to admin that way. Except now, when we can't get to the mail and CAD license server because IT dorked up the routing somewhere in Cucamonga or Omaha or whatever, or hosed the DNS doing routine maintenance, or lost any of the links on the WAN, or _renamed_ the fzcking servers without telling anyone west of the rockies (oops) our entire 70 man office grinds to a halt for an hour or two because nobody has CAD, phone lists, calendars or mail until the FUBAR du jour gets fixed.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    1. Re:IT not doing their jobs by matang · · Score: 0

      #1)a - i deal with b regularly and what happens is well-meaning-member-of-staff sets up the printer, doesn't add the other three printers the user needs, the user now has the wrong printer set as default, there are two programs that need the printer added to their set-up, so now i get the help desk ticket saying "my program xxx won't print" without including "guy from sales tried to set things up earlier"...it causes a lot of headache.

    2. Re:IT not doing their jobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or how about c) newguy informs his manager that pc doesn't have any printers installed, so newguy's manager gets on the phone to bitch at IT guy's manager, who promptly lights a fire under IT guy's ass to go back and install the drivers on newguy's pc like he was supposed to do in the first place.

      It'll all get straightened out, so just worry about your own job, Ace.

    3. Re:IT not doing their jobs by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

      Sometimes "c" is the best answer. LART them once and they'll perform fine after that. Sometimes the problem with "c" is - Newguy's manager is in a meeting till 2:00. ITguy's manager has gone home already because he works on the east coast and it's 5:00 there. However, say we do wait for this to happen - next morning newguy goes to his manager and says, "I got squat done yesterday because I couldn't print any drawings??" and gets reamed for it. Newguy's manager then phones IT manager who says "Thank you for bringing this to my attention. What is the trouble ticket number? What? There is no trouble ticket. Didn't you read the policy we sent last week that says step 1 is to open a trouble ticket? You know, if you had opened a ticket yesterday, we would have had the printers installed within an hour, as per our TOS agreement."

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
  47. Wrong solution by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    If they don't like their IT options they are free to get a job elsewhere. When they are paying for the infrastructure and cost of management then they can fiddle.

    I'm pretty sure the people who advocate letting users manage their own machines and letting 'super' users play around have never had to manage any IT shop bigger than like 50-100 users.

    Put them to work? People who often know enough to be dangerous? Not likely, and as already pointed out in this discussion, why would they want to work for free? They do have other jobs, which I might add they are supposed to be doing instead of messing around.

    1. Re:Wrong solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My IT staff simply lists the privledges set up on individual machines. If you only run a locked desktop your department pays $x for support. If we open it up and make the user a local admin we increase the support cost for that department. It balances users who NEED open access verses those who WANT open access.

  48. Guerillas are usually solitary by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

    The problem with allowing techy types more permissions within the work environment is that they're mostly concerned with enhancing their stuff. Most of them don't do much for their users, other than sharing out equipment over the network, that should be tracked, and then resulting in security going nuts.

    We do have a few building specific groups with their own support, but even there, corp IT has reserved the rights to push to domain and such. Fun thing is when you get a user moving out of a special area and plopping their machine down in a vanilla spot; techs love running across stuff not set up per corporate spec.

    --
    I drank what? -- Socrates
  49. Huh??? by mpapet · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We work in a healthcare organization and having people develop applications on our servers can potentially cause huge issues.

    And why exactly would dev's get to touch production? This is the reason why change control , documentation and good service topography is so vital. Your dev system should be a snapshot of production minus personal data. Your infrastructure should support that all the way back to the dev shop. Anything less is laziness. Most of which is probably way outside of your control. I gave management the options and rationale and they make poor choices. Don't lose too much sleep over it.

    While it's possible to create little sandbox areas for them, it's an administrative hassle

    In theory, that's your job. You and I both know in practice, the reality is much uglier, but this gets back to having an appropriate test environment. ...their applications can't cross security lines... Then there's the support issues - who fixes their business critical application when they've left or are on vacation?

    Get out of the blame-shifing game. Make the issue sknown and go on with your day. If management doesn't want to spend the money and time to manage contingencies well, then it's their fault not yours.

    Comments like this are my #1 pet peeve. Get in front of these issues by communicating well and if nothing changes it's a no-win situation where blame default shifts to IT. Move on. There are greener pastures.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Huh??? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      We work in a healthcare organization and having people develop applications on our servers can potentially cause huge issues.

      And why exactly would dev's get to touch production? This is the reason why change control , documentation and good service topography is so vital. Your dev system should be a snapshot of production minus personal data. Your infrastructure should support that all the way back to the dev shop. Anything less is laziness. Most of which is probably way outside of your control. I gave management the options and rationale and they make poor choices. Don't lose too much sleep over it.

      In my case, it's because I deploy my stuff to prod and need to support production operational issues, along with the usual development and design.
      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
  50. Don't Screw With ROOT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's the superuser after all, right?

  51. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  52. Indeed. by Mendy · · Score: 1

    The bit about who will maintain the systems is especially true. I've been involved in situations where a user has had some IT skills over and above what is required to do their job and has taken over some of the IT responsibility. When they leave their replacement is chosen on the basis of the criteria of their position - not what they've been doing, often because there simply isn't the budget to hire someone with those skills, leaving a vacuum.

    Another problem if you are the user is that if you have a process that takes 3 hours and you automate it so it takes 5 minutes your work will expand to fill the saved time. Do this a couple of time and if the automation breaks you will neither have the time to do the process manually or to fix it and you'll get it in the neck when people notice jobs aren't being done.

  53. There is another approach... by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

    My company took another approach. It is a subsidiary of a larger holding entity. That entity also has an 'IT' subsidiary that is supposed to provide all IT services - but that group is really geared towards enterprise data-center level applications, and can not effectively handle either one-sy-two-sy type work, or conversely larger projects that required a great deal of change/integration with other systems and 24/7 support. Project after project failed, or was delivered in a crippled state - and not in time to take advantage of limited windows of opportunity in many cases.

    We set up a small team of developers dedicated to doing reporting and internal tools (I am one of the developers - and we are not super users - I am a CS/*nix guy) for the operations group as part of a reorganization. This grew organically from the technical engineering and system administration groups. Where IT can't or won't build a given application, we step in. We also interface with the end/super users - and fold in their requirements into the projects we are pursuing.

    This does two things:
    1. It keeps development and testing on dedicated development systems, and deployment on our dedicated production systems...no worries of a rogue superuser cratering the network.

    2. It satisfies the needs of the business to accomplish those tasks that fall through the cracks in the IT process and scope. Management likes not getting the run-around when they need something fast.

    This probably wouldn't work for all organizations - since the talent and resources to do development in a safe manner (dedicated development/test/production systems, version control, knowledge of a wide range of application and network issues surrounding client/server applications etc) is probably not available. One solution in such an environment might be to dedicate some IT resources for this purpose exclusively.

    Get in the trenches, live with the users, eat some of that dog food you're serving.

    --

    Lodragan Draoidh
    The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
  54. Tie us with SOX and cut our budget by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Then set up your own IT department which you do not call IT so the constraints you put on IT do not apply.

    That's what I'm seeing.

    The end result is an unproductive mess with major systems essentially designed and implemented by non-IT people who have absolutely no clue about the enterprise or long term interconnectivity issues or it works great but takes a dozen people to keep going instead of running automatically... but they are not IT people... so it's okay.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  55. Welcome to the business world. by khasim · · Score: 1

    You think that if I can't justify a piece of hardware or software that makes my job easier and how it translates into instant dollars, then it isn't worth your time fooling with.
    Pretty much. We're in business to make money. You're being paid to make money for the company.

    If you do not understand the situation sufficiently that you can express the benefit of X in terms of dollars and cents, then why should the company pay you to play with it?

    What about the cost of a turnover?
    What about it?

    Are you threatening to leave just because you didn't get to play with X?

    No, change that, are you threatening to leave just because you could not make a business case for you getting to play with X?

    That pretty much answers how much you are worth as an employee.

    So I'm willing to risk installing something that goes around your puny and ill-thought restriction vs. you finding out and getting pissed off at me.
    It's nice how you know so much more than I do about this field.

    And if you do find out, then I'm not a real "superuser" am I? A real superuser never gets caught.
    If you put something on my network, it WILL be found. If you really knew as much as you thought you did, you'd know how I'd find it and why it is impossible to hide it from me.

    But right now I have my perfect dream job. And I also get a lot of leeway to be creative with my own machine. And I work for the military, no less!
    Sure you do. Sure you do. And, sure you do.

    But I have dealt with so many companies in the past that had this Nazi-istic IT department that made it impossible to have a new idea or a creative thought.
    And yet you claim you get MORE "leeway" when you're working "for the military".

    Fascinating.
    1. Re:Welcome to the business world. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      Yes, truly I do. I am not saying things are not locked down, I am saying that I've been places where they were locked down even more than here.

      I don't really mean network as in just the "series of tubes" definition -- I mean any corporate device that has any physical connection to the network as well. Meaning even a computer or a thumbdrive.

      Even so, it is naive for you to think that I am incapable of hiding something from you. Maybe not a web server, but maybe! Depending on your competency and mine, who could say here. But it sure assumes a lot though! Like, that I would not consider YOUR intelligence and technical competence, and my lack of understanding/use of port-shifting, encryption, obfuscation, and dead-man-switches.

      But that's OK. You seem to exhibit the same arrogant attitude as most IT people I've dealt with. Which actually works in my favor.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
  56. Get them fired, fast. by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    When someone cuts the lock off their machine to reset the BIOS passwd jumper and reinstalls the OS just so they can install a game or skip the mandated proxy, call your information security and HR folk and get them fired fast. If you give them a warning, they'll only try and be sneakier the next time they do something (like corporate espionage). These people don't belong in an organization; they would feel much more comfortable as lone-wolf contractors, so you're doing them a favor.

    1. Re:Get them fired, fast. by Nukenbar · · Score: 1

      Screw that. Give him a promotion.

  57. We let users do pretty much what they want by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We let our users do pretty much what they want until it starts effecting normal operations. If it starts
    effecting normal operations then and only then do we come down on them.

    If we do get bothered by something a end user wrote "excel crap" for instance we just get them up and 3 am
    to share the love....The rule is that if you wrote it you will be the one maintaining it.

  58. I'm one of those... by Ralph+Spoilsport · · Score: 1
    Where I teach, we have to use Blackboard, which As We All Know is a roiling piece of shit, and when combined with a hokey pokey Content Management System (CMS), is an invitation to True Disaster.

    I got tired of Blackboard's idiocy, and when combined with our CMS, I was... disgusterpated. Luckily, I know something about Apple computers (having worked there for 3 years) and our local IT dood, while a miracle worker, is more windows/unix centered, and isn't really totally up on Leopard and similar systems like I am. So I help him with some things, and we have a great working relationship.

    I told him of my frustration with the system that exists, and he is also utterly pissed at the idiotic policies that seem to have been carved out of stone in the late 1990s. So, he said - hey - I have a server for this building you share with a neighbouring department that hardly uses it...

    So, I set up all my courses on the server, with none of the idiotic design limitations from CMS, or any of the file size limits from Blackboard. I'm happy, he's excited to do fun and much more interesting work supporting this thing, and the students really like this supplement to the system. The result: Win Win Win, except for the the draconian bureaucrats who run CMS and Blackboard.

    I still use blackboard for grading, but other than that, it's a waste of my time, and I don't have to wait 20 minutes for updates to my site to show up, and neither me nor my students have to deal with microscopic file limitations.

    I can attest to guerrilla IT. When you're dealing with responsible adults who are trying to get a job done, it all works out really really well. It's not hard to imagine scenarios where people of "Diminished Responsibility" could really make an unholy mess of things, but over all, I think it streamlines services a great deal, i.e.:

    "It Works For Me!"

    RS

    --
    Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
  59. HAHAHAHA typical /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I love how out of all of the comments there are only like three that aknowledge that there ought to be some middle ground on this...

    My personal fav:

    "I work for a large governmental entity that has policing powers and I assure you, such people are worthy of dismissal only. Once you give them an inch, they'll take a mile...Best to nip this problem in the bud."

    Gawd, working for this company must suck-a-c0ck! Would I get fired if I miss the noon IT manager worshiping session? Do I really need to address littlewink as "The Almighty"?

  60. I was this guy. by Associate · · Score: 1

    I worked in a logistics center and referred to myself as the Covert Logistics Information Technology Team, C.L.I.T.T for short.

    --
    Someone hates these cans.
  61. Re: Sweaters... by Namlak · · Score: 1

    I will knit an array of sweaters and overcome your fascism with static electricity! I imagine it will take a Beowulf cluster of sweaters...
  62. I've been there by hey! · · Score: 1

    The users have a real business need.

    You don't have the resources to meet that need.

    They say, "Well, let us do it for ourselves."

    You say, "But if it doesn't work out, then we'll have to pick up the pieces."

    They say, "That won't happen; if it doesn't work out we'll be on our own."

    Then you say to yourself, "My life would be a lot easier if I came down hard on this." Then you remind yourself, "But it's not my job to make my life easy. It's my job to try to get the needs of the company met."

    Then you decide to look the other way, the project fails, serious business repercussions threaten, you're called in to clean up the mess, and by the way you don't get any more resources to do it.

    File it under: no good deed goes unpunished.

    I've been on the other end of the stick, an application developer with decades of experience in multiple industries, having to wait on some kid whose development knowledge amounts to having read "Access for Dummies" to figure things out.

    I don't think there should be a hard and fast rule on this, but I think if you let user projects go forward, it's a bad idea to turn a blind eye towards them. If the project looks like it's going to have some impact, either by succeeding or failing, I'd probably require the user to make a proposal, as if he were a vendor, and I'd track it the way I'd track a vendor project. He should make a business case, show he's the best person to do it we can get for the money available, then he should commit to deliverables, milestones, acceptance tests and so forth.

    If the product doesn't pass tests, you pull the plug on it before the company starts relying upon it.

    If a user just wants to hack his iPhone for his own amusement, then he should buy his own iPhone. If he wants to hack his iPhone in a way that arguably solves a problem for the company, I might entertain him doing this, but only if I were prepared for him to brick the thing. If it's not worth a bricked iPhone, it's not worth letting him do it with company property.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  63. It'll work perfectly, as soon as everyone can say: by stove · · Score: 1

    "Woah, looks like the app I just installed completely destroyed my paritions. Well, that's what I get for fooling around the day before a big project is due. Guess I'll be up all night typing, probably take me a few days to finish! But that's my own fault. Goodnight, support, see you in the morning!"

    "Woah, looks like Bob over there installed some really suspicious software that may be interfering with my ability to work. Guess I'll go over there and spend the rest of the night digging out the crapware on his machine. No need to call support - we wanted it this way."

    "Mr. Big Boss, the reason this project isn't done is the file server we run locally crashed last night and we're still recovering it. Of course IT isn't to blame: we run it. It's entirely our fault, no need to call IT."

    "No, I don't need admin on my machine, are you nuts? I don't know what I'm doing, I'm not a power user."

    In my years in IT, some (not all) of the reasons for crappy IT policies is that everyone wants freedom... until something breaks. Then, regardless of what has been said, it's the IT staff's job to fix it. After a couple of rounds of this (and shrinking budgets), pretty soon the IT staff is shutting down anything not immediately necessary for work.

    Throw a couple of technologically illiterate folks on either side of the equation, and you have a corporate IT department.

    --
    Ack!
  64. At Apple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I work at Apple. When I started last year, during new employee orientation, we were told: "Your computer is your own. We won't install software on it or tell you what to install or what you can't. The only thing is, if you break it, you'll have to figure out how to fix it, or get help from a coworker to fix it. We'll keep the network running, you keep your desktop running." Which is quite a refreshing change from my previous company where they wouldn't even give you admin access to your own bloody machine...

  65. Thanks for the demonstration. by khasim · · Score: 1

    Even so, it is naive for you to think that I am incapable of hiding something from you. Maybe not a web server, but maybe!
    Anyone with any knowledge of networking and systems would know that it would be impossible to hide a web server on a network.

    I'm already looking for anything the crackers might have gotten past me.

    Depending on your competency and mine, who could say here. But it sure assumes a lot though!
    No, it does not assume anything. That you would even suggest so demonstrates how little you understand networking and systems.

    It's called "computer science" for a reason. It is not magic.

    Like, that I would not consider YOUR intelligence and technical competence, and my lack of understanding/use of port-shifting, encryption, obfuscation, and dead-man-switches.
    If you really understood what you think you understand, you'd know that those terms are meaningless out of context. Let me provide you some context.

    So your run your web server on 8080 instead of 80. Big deal. That box is not SUPPOSED to have port 8080 open. I'd find it.

    So you run your web server with encryption. I'd find the port.

    So you rename the web server file. I'd find the port.

    WTF do "dead-man-switches" have to do with this? Those are for when something does NOT happen. Yeah, you might set it to wipe your web server if you don't log in for a week (you've been fired), but that does not stop me from finding the web server in the first place.

    You seem to exhibit the same arrogant attitude as most IT people I've dealt with. Which actually works in my favor.
    You are confusing "competence" and "knowledge" with "arrogance".

    Again, this is a science. It is not magic.
    1. Re:Thanks for the demonstration. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      OK, "dead-man-switch"... I don't know what to call it instead. Booby trap?

      Say you start scanning ports, I could easily detect and shut the web server off (or anything else I didn't want you to find). Trivial. Or just drop TCP/IP traffic if from a certain range. Or hell, just explicitly allow traffic only certain IPs. Get around THAT, Mr. Smarty Pants.

      OK, but say even doing that slipped my mind... 8080 isn't supposed to be open. What about port 110? 25? Some other service that you were normally running -- but not on THIS box? There are lots of things that actually run a small web server on a different port. Network printers often have a web-based admin for config. You really think I couldn't impersonate one of those?

      No, I think I got it right... what you show is arrogance.

      Remember the first rule of war? "Know thy enemy." If you think I would ever deploy something without first scouting your competence, you're crazy. That means I'm going to make sure what I do flies beneath whatever radar you might dream up because I'll find out about your radar before you even know what I am possibly capable of.

      Maybe what you do resembles science. What I do resembles magic.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
  66. Embracing the Superuser by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

    Somewhere at infoworld.com, there is a rogue superuser who's created a devilish hack to fit all the contents of an article onto a single page. Someone needs to embrace that guy.

  67. Last time this subject came up by Toonol · · Score: 1

    I argued in favor of giving the users more rights, and was criticized by everybody that responded. But I'm sticking to my guns. I think the structure of IT in most corporations is not ideal.

    I think what would make much more sense then is to have distributed IT; various departments have key members that are responsible for IT management for their department. The IT department proper would handle big projects (software development, mainframe, networking, other big ticket or impact items), while desktop admin, software installations, user setup, troubleshooting, etc., database admin, should be done by the IT 'poweruser' staff in each department.

    Right now, it's a mess, because individual departments know what needs done from a business perspective, but don't have the trained staff or permission to do it, while the IT team has the people and power to do it, but only a vague idea of what really needs done. The structure can tend to make IT vs other departments take on a mutually adversarial relationship, which is bad for the company.

    I've done hacky, ugly stuff in MS Access, because it was too difficult to get access to any of my company's SQL server boxes, and it would have turned a two day project into six months to get IT involved. On the other hand IT hates MS Access, for several entirely valid reasons, and so they get even more irritated at users 'not doing it right'. Lo and behold, everybody's unhappy.

  68. Re:It'll work perfectly, as soon as everyone can s by dave562 · · Score: 1
    In my years in IT, some (not all) of the reasons for crappy IT policies is that everyone wants freedom... until something breaks. Then, regardless of what has been said, it's the IT staff's job to fix it. After a couple of rounds of this (and shrinking budgets), pretty soon the IT staff is shutting down anything not immediately necessary for work.

    I tried to make this point the last time the subject came up. I got modded down into oblivion. I hope that you fair better.

  69. Cisco by c0d3r · · Score: 1

    At Cisco, you manage and setup your own systems, if you can. Sometimes you need coordination (mostly physical stuff) but no one really gets in your way of getting things done. You can create your own domain if you want to. Also, there are tools that enable global sys admin stuff to just about anyone.

  70. OT: Favorite Warez Attempt by The+Angry+Mick · · Score: 1

    I've seen users copy warez on the file server.

    Off topic (kinda), but this reminded me of the time one of my users deleted some of his MS Office directories so he could copy the full Sonic the Hedgehog Dreamcast CD to his hard drive. They were quite disappointed to learn that neither Sonic, or MS Word would run . . .

    --

    I'm not tense. I'm just terribly, terribly, alert.

  71. This is different how? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    And while you're creating this community, your network is busily being infested with malware, unlicensed software and pirated music.

    And how is this different from what happens when the company has a software monoculture designed and administered by its IT department and the major vendors (who design the major TARGETS of malware)?

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  72. You contradict yourself. by khasim · · Score: 1

    I'll recover files, though frankly they should already be on the network share.
    So you WILL recover files even if the loss is the result of the employee's own stupidity with installing unsupported software on his machine.

    I don't care about "should". I care about the realities.

    If you allow users to install software that they want, unsupported, the data files WILL end up on their local drive.

    And you WILL be responsible for trying to recover them when they're lost.

    No matter what you said when you granted them those rights. The company will NOT support your self-esteem over the employee's data.
    1. Re:You contradict yourself. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      How is that a contradiction? It's not unusual support to grab a handful of files off the local machine. It's just as likely that those files were lost due to hardware failure...Are you suggesting that we'd just ignore that?

      There is a world of difference between that and supporting a non-standard application.

      It's trivial to mount a drive so it can be read, if the OS is corrupted. It's possible to resurrect a drive for long enough to make a copy. And it's possible to send the drive off to a recovery expert if the management is willing to pay for it.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  73. Nightmares? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In short, they're walking, talking IT governance nightmares I always saw these people as being useful, not nightmares by any stretch. The nightmares are the semi-computer-literate types who want to know why they can't install crap(spy/ad)ware X at the office, and nearly-computer-illiterate business types who want to know why you can't make application Y do magical thing Z. In fact if you have these "guerilla IT guys" doing things themselves, it's probably because the IT department is incompetent. I've never run across a "guerilla" who had to fill in for the IT department but if I did I'd feel pretty bad.

    In short, if you see these people as nightmares, chances are there's a good reason they're taking things into their own hands and you should get off your ass and find out what's going on, and find a way to fix it so they don't have to. You shouldn't have to do their job and they shouldn't have to do yours.
    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  74. I should be charging for this. by khasim · · Score: 1

    OK, "dead-man-switch"... I don't know what to call it instead. Booby trap?

    Say you start scanning ports, I could easily detect and shut the web server off (or anything else I didn't want you to find). Trivial.
    And also trivial to detect. I can see the traffic going to the box on a port that should NOT be open.

    Maybe what you do resembles science. What I do resembles magic.
    Only to you.

    Or just drop TCP/IP traffic if from a certain range. Or hell, just explicitly allow traffic only certain IPs. Get around THAT, Mr. Smarty Pants.
    I'm monitoring the network. If there is traffic, I will SEE the traffic. It does not matter if you firewall that machine so I can not connect to it.

    I will SEE the traffic on the network.

    You do NOT understand that.

    OK, but say even doing that slipped my mind... 8080 isn't supposed to be open. What about port 110? 25? Some other service that you were normally running -- but not on THIS box?
    Then I would suspect a cracker had gotten past me. I know what ports are open on what boxes and WHY they're open (what service is using them). And what machines on my network connect to those boxes on those ports. If that box is not a mail server, then why would it have port 25 open?

    There are lots of things that actually run a small web server on a different port. Network printers often have a web-based admin for config. You really think I couldn't impersonate one of those?
    I know you could not. But you believe that you could. I would not be suspicious when a brand new "printer" shows up on the network? That doesn't seem to be taking any print jobs? That registered itself as a workstation earlier? Instead of in the range I've assigned for printers?

    No, I think I got it right... what you show is arrogance.
    Of course you do. Because you believe that you know what you're talking about.

    Meanwhile, I can trace the traffic from any point on my network.

    It's called "Intrusion Detection". You might want to look it up.

    If you think I would ever deploy something without first scouting your competence, you're crazy. That means I'm going to make sure what I do flies beneath whatever radar you might dream up because I'll find out about your radar before you even know what I am possibly capable of.
    Yes, because it is so easy for you to find what I do WITHOUT tripping anything designed to catch just that kind of activity.

    At least ... you believe that doing so would be within your abilities. Despite you not understanding anything about networking or systems. But then, if you did understand networking, you'd know that what you've been claiming is impossible. And then you would not have claimed that it was possible.
    1. Re:I should be charging for this. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      This conversation seems too dependent on me having knowledge of YOUR network, not networks in general. It isn't really possible for me to win this argument because you will simply pull out a "Well, I have an anti-anti-anti-missile!"

      Fine, I could make the same type of arguments. But the point isn't that you can't come up with a way around anything I dream up. There's always a way. The gamble is that a)you don't have time to watch everything that closely, b)I'm more clever at disguising it than you are at detecting it, c)I won't generate enough noise to trip your alarm.

      The majority of companies I've worked for don't have very complex networks and don't monitor their traffic much (if at all). Most of the IT admins I know wouldn't even know how to capture and analyze the traffic. Maybe in big corporations like Dell or IBM you might have somebody, or if you got lucky and got someone competent who knows how; but not most small and medium sized businesses of say 100 employees or less.

      But those same businesses have IT admins that are quick to try and lock everything down and then not negotiate when you really need something different from status quo. IMHO that is where the problem starts.

      And honestly and truly, if I had to work with tools I didn't like because I wasn't allowed to dream up a more efficient/effective solution, I'd be out of there at my earliest convenience because I'd be bored of the job.

      Perhaps what you miss is that I really don't have to play by your rules because I don't have to play at all. Become too restrictive and I will leave. It's the company's loss, not mine; but you (as an IT admin) cannot perceive that loss from your perspective (and it isn't your job to, so why should you care).

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
    2. Re:I should be charging for this. by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      What he is saying is basic IDS. As long as you don't control all IDSes on the network, nor the central management/reporting console, a decent IDS setup, especially with a good analysis system running on the management console, will catch anomalous traffic.

      In fact, autonomously detecting anomalous traffic is what the current generation of IDSes is designed for. I am in partial charge of exactly such a system, and while not 100% foolproof, khasim is right that his control over the physical network media gives him a deciding advantage over you.

      And a company need not be large to deploy such a system. Managed Security providers can do so for a decent price for all but the smallest SMEs.

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    3. Re:I should be charging for this. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      I don't dispute that there are not ways of detecting.

      What I am saying is that most companies I've worked for 100 employees or less had no detection capability that I ever heard of, even though it was readily available.

      Perhaps these companies feel that they should be able to trust anyone inside their own walls so why should they need such a thing in the first place? I don't know why not. I would have it if I were the IT king.

      But detection only works if you have physical access to that network. In a later post, I came up with the idea of having a 2nd private network (with its own wiring), but having corporate computers connected to both the corporate network and the private network by using two independent interfaces. Now you cannot detect the anomolous traffic because it isn't on your network, yet it's a security threat because secure data could inadvertently end up on the private network.

      My point is that I don't have to know everything about everything to get what I want. I just have to be smarter than the IT guy in charge. And usually, from my experience, it hasn't been that difficult.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
  75. That is exactly what you said you'd ignore. by khasim · · Score: 0, Troll

    How is that a contradiction? It's not unusual support to grab a handful of files off the local machine. It's just as likely that those files were lost due to hardware failure...Are you suggesting that we'd just ignore that?
    Because you had previously said that you would not do so.

    The original question being:

    Well your caveat only works to a point. How long would your department let him spin his wheels while work is not getting done? Who then gets blamed for the downtime? The power user or IT?
    And your reply was:

    Well, they broke the machine didn't they? With privilege comes responsibility. The same would apply to me, if I hosed my development equipment...I've done it before, and it's just a cost of doing business.
    And now you're changing that.

    I didn't really believe that any company would let you operate in that fashion. You're paid to support the company's IT infrastructure which is supposed to be making the PROFIT earning employees more productive/faster/safer.
    1. Re:That is exactly what you said you'd ignore. by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Oh for fucks sake. If they broke the OS. If they screwed up the system. I bet you're a real blast to work with.

      You know how often I've had trouble with a power user this year? Never. Because I only give those permissions to competent people. Had one guy wipe out his system last year, and he worked 5 hours off the clock to set it right, because he knew it was his responsibility, and it meant more to him that he kept his privileges than the extra work did.

      That is a productive employee, not one of the children you babysit.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
  76. One of the dumbest things I've ever heard. by lawn.ninja · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe the guy who wrote this article works in a building full of programmers or something, because short of that this is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. If I let my users have control of anything the PC's would be full of yahoo toolbars, itunes and some random spyware app that "automatically switches their desktops".

    I know plenty of these self proclaimed techies. They go home, they watch tech TV, they read all the latest computer magazines and they can recite what the best video card is down to the chipset revision number... The things they don't know are the most important though, and its info you wouldn't be privi to unless you knew the system, like say a sys admin or desktop support tech would. You know like program dependencies... drive mappings, registry hacks. I honestly don't know one out of the box solution that we use at our company. Every one of our apps, including the mainstream ones, have been customized to work with our environment.

    I wish these dumb assholes would learn that not all PC's are your home PC. Just because you can add and remove programs sufficiently at home bears no indication that you can do anything useful in a production corporate environment. Your windows XP home edition bears little to no resemblence to the system we've put in your office. Leave it alone. We QA and test every image that goes into production, your app may not jive with our app... There are reasons to have specialists in every area. People just want to be know-it-all assholes. I don't pretend to be a cosmologist because I watch Discovery Space.

    People just have no respect for IT and because of that everyone always has a better solution. people should concentrate on their jobs and stop worrying about how to get rid of the IT department, we're here, we're not going anywhere. If your IT department is lazy or can't provide solutions for you, get rid of the certificate junkies and get some real techs in place. If you give a roadmap of what you need we can make unicorns appear, at least my IT department can.

  77. Sheer madness. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    You should look forward to the day one of those laptops gets "owned" and your company is in the news headlines laughing at you for losing your clients (or business partners) data.

    If the company gives a laptop to somebody it is for work, not for personal use.

    If you don't know how to secure such a laptop don't use as an excuse giving freedom to your users.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Sheer madness. by lgw · · Score: 1

      There's no *technical* solution to locking down a machine that you hand to someone else. Physical access allows for electronic access: not much you can do about that. You might be able to say "if your machine's not on the domain you have no access to company email or internal apps, even via VPN" but most businesses wouldn't want their IT department to provide so little service.

      I'm going to install the apps I need to get my job done. If the IT-issued machine won't allow that, I'll just reformat it and make it useful, and VPN into the company network even when I'm at my desk.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Sheer madness. by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 1

      grr... replied to wrong post.. this was meant to you:

      SOX based IT Controls have a lot more to do with human discipline than simply electronic lock down.

      Here is a story about unammed very large defense contractor I worked for:

      (These guys have the most strict latop/desktop policies I have seen)

      Their employees would go to a vendor in taiwan and they were only allowed to transfer information between certain systems at the TW vendor site and corporate machines via USB keys so that no networking was taking place (modern day sneaker net) as there were active atacks coming from unnamed asian power house.

      Even though they were at a 3rd party vendor and USB keys was only transfer vector - the asian country had compromised the TW vendor systems and installed trojans that specifically targeted USB keys as they knew unnamed contractor laptops were passing data via this vector...

      The point is; Being a lockout nazi on all systems does not give you that much more security. The best security is arrived through a balance of user behaviour education and reasoned thought out computer security and maintenance... The problem is that the correct way to do this takes a lot more resource than the lazy ways...

    3. Re:Sheer madness. by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      And get fired for improper use of company equipment. You can brag about how much of a genius you are at the unemployment office.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    4. Re:Sheer madness. by lgw · · Score: 1

      As I said, there's no *technical* solution. A *business policy* solution is certainly workable. This is just another case where a technological solution to a people problem doesn't work well.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:Sheer madness. by Sobrique · · Score: 1
      Actually, boot time hard drive encryption, makes it pretty tough for them to mess around. Not impossible, no, but ... hard enough.

      Make it an effort, and then add a policy of 'mess around with this and you're fired' (Ideally with an explanation as to why it's important that the sensitive information on your laptop is protected, and how adware and trojans and just getting your laptop nicked are a really big deal when you have customer account information accessible to your system) and you have resilience against anything barring active malice.

    6. Re:Sheer madness. by lgw · · Score: 1

      If you let people connect to your network from their home machines (via VPN or whatever) then trying to lock down the laptops is pointless - you can always just reformat the laptop. Boot time encryption adds no protection against the owner of the machine, who presumably knows the password.

      The policy is the only real protection, but I know many skilled developers who just wouldn't care. A pleasant work environment a big differentiator in dev jobs, and so if you get fired for doing ordinary things to make your life easier, it must have been a crap job to begin with, so no loss.

      As you imply, boot time encryption is not absolute protection against a skilled attacker, either. If you have access to the machine when it's running, you can just connect via firewire (or I think USB) and probe memory until you find the encryption key. This combination of attacks is relatively new, but I'd expect it to be automated andavailable to script kiddies by year's end.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  78. Um yea right.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I see my pay increase for the work I do for other then I will share how I get my job done efficiently as I do.I refuse to allow my users to have superuser access. Since being taken away I have had minimal problems with the computers. With the exception of my ID10T's

  79. You have no idea what you are talking about. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    The law of unintended consequences applies here.

    You can secure very well a network, but if you allow random vectors of attack on it, one of them will succeed in bringing your whole infrastructure to its knees.

    I have seen it all: unintended DOS attacks (how many times does your shit application needs to reinvent the nslookup command? Why your shitty window manager has to cache itself all user names from the enterprise name servers instead to allow the OS to do so?), macro viruses, spam viruses (flooding the network so badly that no traffic could continue). So don't give me that about network being secure or otherwise being rubbish. Network may be secure, but they don't have infinite resources.

    I don't want your mum introducing a virus in my network, neither do I want an stupid application that she found cute hitting one of the corporate services, or her machine being "owned" because the little thing is not programmed securely.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  80. With great power comes great responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have users who go into their program and tweak the code because they think they know how it works, or who will delete a folder that they think is useless because they don't understand what's in it. They often can glean knowledge from poking around, but they get cocky with it and start messing things up without understanding all the ramifications. When you try to give them extra information that would help them to do things competently or systematically, they're unable to absorb it because it isn't something they think they need to know.

    The issue is not whether they have the knowledge to do useful things, but whether they have the maturity to use the knowledge responsibly. If they're hacking work computers so that they can use them for gaming or warez, they are not responsible, and should not be given any more access or power than they already have.

  81. Bullshit. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    If the need is legitimate there will be procedures in place to source, test and secure the software needed.

    The only think you are advocating is cowboyism and amateurism.

    Fix your processes if you may, get adequate resources to certify that software is safe (and here you would be surprised how often companies that should know better screw up big time. I am talking about well known names, don't get me started about companies with 20 employees pushing a product for the first time in a blue chip company), put fast-tracking procedures in place if needed, but installing stuff "because there is a business need" without adequate technical oversight gives a green light to everybody to do exactly the same and is the mark of a company that does not take security seriously.

    In such a situation I would not want to work in your company and will leave you with the mediocre administrators that you would deserve.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  82. IT is not a service. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    IT is an utility.

    Go suggesting to waste water, electricity or something else and try to make a business case for it. I look forward to your proposal been laughed off.

    For some reason people wasting IT resources think that is perfectly fine, after all IT people's work is barely more valuable than the janitor's.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  83. In which planet do you live? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    I never worked in a company that allowed people bringing their own machines to put company's data there.

    Oh wait, I have only worked for big, successful companies.

    My bad.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:In which planet do you live? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Ahhh... The arrogance of youth... You know, there were businesses before 1985. Even big successful ones.

  84. b.s. by DigDuality · · Score: 1

    Lock them down and scold them for doing crap to the network and machines outside of the set parameters they were given. I'm sorry but people create too many problems once you open the floodgates to just say it's a-ok for these people do to this. They generally have no idea how things are setup, they may be a "power user" and have a good working knowledge of some systems/applications, but when they screw something up, then they have to call the IT department to fix something they may or may not know how to fix, all over an issue that shouldn't have been one to begin with. And lets not forget about the fact if you give non-IT, peon, workers more rights/privledges in the infrastructure on their machines, the ones who know nothing at all about technology but are on the same level as the super-user in their department, they will feel slighted and demand the same access too. What are you going to do? Discriminate and tell them no b/c "you don't know what you're doing".

  85. I use a Mac by mattsday · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I work for a very large global organisation with a 'middle-of-the-road' IT. They allow all users admin access to their Windows desktops, but have a lot of mandatory software installed.

    However, a very large number of users within the organisation use Macs. Some of these are self-funded, others are paid for by their departments. The one thing in common is that we support each other, have a wiki page with most configuration and want as little to do with IT as possible.

    In the year I've been using my Mac (some have used theirs for years and years), I have to say it's worked exceptionally well. It's not for everyone. Some are content to tow the line and use their Lenovos.

    IT turn a blind eye to the several thousand (and growing) of us. In fact, they support us in some ways (mostly secretly and below the radar). It's universally acknowledged that those employees who are itchy to use Macs instead of Windows and self-support are more productive than they would be were they forced in to a corp. IT environment.

    The same goes for the very large linux community within the organisation too.

    --
    Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!
  86. Complete nonsense. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    You wanna thinker? Give me a business need and I'll set you up in a way that is safe for our business, normally in a segregated test environment.

    You can play all what you want there.

    You just wanna play? Buddy, go to your garage for that, Any play done in my network has to be justified and done safely.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  87. What is the job of those people? by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Is it fishing? No? Then why should I teach them to fish anything, let alone allow them to learn empirically how to fish in the dime of the company?

    If the job of these people is not to maintain and resolve network problems I don't want to see them doing so.

    If they have a job to do what is wrong to ask them to get it done? Is that such a novel idea or what?

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  88. One acronym...NASD by charnov · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I worked as the regional it director of a financial services firm which dealt with stocks, bonds, and securities. This meant we fell under the regulatory umbrella of the National Association of Securities Dealers (among others). They are a quasi-governmental agency and have absolute power (no appeals) in their sphere.

    The deal that made me lock down everything was this little policy the NASD has of fining IT staff directly. Not the company, not the department...me. Personally. Starting at $100,000 and going up for security or privacy breaches.

    That'll make you think twice. Oh yeah, any publicly traded companies officer (C level) can be sent to JAIL for violating certain IT regulatory policies.

    So yeah, there is a reason for the control.

    --
    [RIAA] says its concern is artists. That's true, in just the sense that a cattle rancher is concerned about its cattle.
  89. The real solution: by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Fire their ass. Not coddle them.

    Im sorry but if you want to run a tight ship you can not allow such nonsence.

    There are business reasons we don't go off and do our own thing, no matter how harmless it may seem at the time.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  90. In any serious company .... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    ... you and your boss would be dusting off your respective CVs, and would not expect a good recommendation from your current employer.

    It would have been great somebody accessing your home server and eavesdropping in your IM sessions.

    What would have been your excuse then ?

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  91. You demonstrate your ignorance, AGAIN. by khasim · · Score: 1

    This conversation seems too dependent on me having knowledge of YOUR network, not networks in general.
    Again, you are demonstrating your ignorance.

    There are very few ways that two workstations can connect to each other over Ethernet. Seeing as how I am the network administrator, I have access to the physical media in almost every one of those scenarios.

    Because I have access to the physical media, I can monitor the flow of packets.

    Because I can monitor the flow of packets, I can see who is connecting to whom and on what port.

    That is the same for ANY network. But then, anyone who knew as much as you claim to know about networking would know that you CANNOT hide a web server on a network. It's basic science.

    But the point isn't that you can't come up with a way around anything I dream up. There's always a way. The gamble is that a)you don't have time to watch everything that closely, b)I'm more clever at disguising it than you are at detecting it, c)I won't generate enough noise to trip your alarm.
    No. The point is that you do not UNDERSTAND networking.

    a. I do NOT have to watch "everything" that closely. I just have to monitor for things that are not supposed to happen. That's simple.

    b. There is no way you can "disguise" it because I control the physical media connecting the machines. It is basic science.

    c. There is no "noise". Again, you're demonstrating your ignorance. The packets have a very clearly defined format with a source and a destination clearly identified. It is BASIC science.

    Become too restrictive and I will leave.
    *waves*

    It's the company's loss, not mine; but you (as an IT admin) cannot perceive that loss from your perspective (and it isn't your job to, so why should you care).
    There have been HOW MANY posts here where I've continued to demonstrate where you are wrong (and ignorant of basic science) and yet you still believe that you'd have some value to a company?

    It's science, not magic. Believe whatever you want to believe.
    1. Re:You demonstrate your ignorance, AGAIN. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      The same number of posts that you demonstrate your arrogance.

      Never thought I would dream of running my own ethernet cable? Or hiding a wi-fi router in a wall somewhere and spackle over it? Maybe even bringing a rogue machine covertly? Create a whole shadow network that is off your visibility entirely?

      Sure, you'll just say that you'll lock down USB ports so they don't recognize network interfaces from them. Or walk around with a wi-fi detector.

      Fine, you've demonstrated you're worth your salt (as well as your suffocating grip on technology).

      Good for you. Most IT folks would never consider the possibility of those things. But your shop is not the kind I'd volunteer to be around anyway, so you have no worries with the likes of me.

      Though I might be swayed to challenge someone like you just for the sheer hell of it, come what may.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
    2. Re:You demonstrate your ignorance, AGAIN. by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Fine. Bring your own equipment. How are you going to disguise the fact that data is being moved from internal systems into what appears to be a black hole, instead of a workstation that has a user logged in with authorisation to said data?

      If all your Ethernet cable or AP is going to do is set up a private network where you share personal data with friends, it's not a threat. The minute your setup generates anomalous traffic on the network, my management console will flag it (and I suspect khasim has a similar setup).

      So, either you airgap your private network from the corporate network, in which case it is no threat, or you connect it to the corporate network, and you'll be caught.

      Like khasim said, it's not magic. It's science.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    3. Re:You demonstrate your ignorance, AGAIN. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      Could not a machine exist on both networks at the same time using dual interfaces? I've done that before.

      Yes, so I have set up a private network; but unless you have software to keep stuff that belongs on your network from moving off your network, how could you possibly know data wandered over to my private network?

      You can't. There is no detection tool for that other than the inevitable "Hmm... that's peculiar, why are there two ethernet cables leading to this machine?"

      But any equipment that I had installed like that I assume will be discovered and confiscated, so it isn't really a loss to me.

      Personally, if I wanted an MP3 repository that my fellow workmates had access to at work (aside from the fact that I personally wouldn't) -- but remained invisible to you, --this might be how I would do it to avoid any network detection. Yeah, you might see a wireless USB card hanging out the back of the machine (assuming it isn't too locked down to install one or I can't trick you into letting me install it), but otherwise you might never know.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
    4. Re:You demonstrate your ignorance, AGAIN. by mvdwege · · Score: 1
      Could not a machine exist on both networks at the same time using dual interfaces? I've done that before.

      Yes, but not without giving itself away. You really don't get it, do you?

      Mart
      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  92. You rather not. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Because in my case I would make sure sure you are given a first notice to go in your file for violating company policies. If you are a contractor that would mean your contract would be terminated, if you are a permanent employee that would mean two more and you are out.

    If you think breaching your employment contract is the best way to get your job done, go ahead, be my guest, just ensure you remember you have been warned.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:You rather not. by Bobb+Sledd · · Score: 1

      That's why you don't violate policies if you're a contractor, you wait until you're a perm.

      Then, when you get that 2nd notice, and see that you can't win, start looking for another (less restrictive) job.

      --
      "They said I probly shouldn't fly with just one eye," "I am Bender. Please insert girder."
  93. You forgot the most importan reason. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    e.g. #3 Users don't have an overall view of the systems and think that their actions are harmless, which usually aren't.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  94. Re:It'll work perfectly, as soon as everyone can s by stove · · Score: 1

    Apparently so...

    --
    Ack!
  95. Re:In any serious company .... by truthsearch · · Score: 1

    The IM sessions were encrypted end-to-end by the client software. I may have been stupid for doing it, but I'm not that stupid.

  96. There is no blanket Solution by sco_robinso · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It all really biols down to the company, its history, the type of industry it's in, its size, its management, etc.

    There are companies and situations where superusers can be a great value, and others not so much.

    Personally, I'm in a company of about 200 people. We have a fairly defined and rigid set of IT policies. It's well communicated and well known that you don't install any apps or programs without IT's permission. If users have requests or need software, we'll install it for them after testing it first. That being said, there's very little deviance on behalf of the users, and overall, we have very few problems with rogue users or PCs.

    It really just depends on the company. At minimum, you need to have a coherent, plain language IT acceptable use policy that all employees need to be familiar with.

    Then, there's something to be said about why superusers deviate. From the sounds of alot of /.ers, they have to fill out forms in triplicate just to talk to someone in IT. In our company, you simply go talk to the guys in IT. If you need a printer or an app installed, we do it in a few minutes.

    But again, there's so many factors that come into play, you have to take it piece by piece.

  97. BonziBUDDY by pragma_x · · Score: 1

    I had no idea what "Bonzai Buddy" was, so I had to look it up.

    At first I thought it had something to do with minature trees - maybe something like that light-hearted widget from a decade ago that let you put put animated sheep all over the place. Just install, and park a little plant on your taskbar, and prune it from time-to-time. What would be so wrong about that?

    Nope. Instead, you get the frankenstein-like intersection of Grape Ape, Clippy, and GatorWare, along with the disaterous super-set of ethical implications from those aggregate parts. BonziBuddy will verbally abuse your children, sleep with your wife, drain your bank account, kick your dog, eat over the sink, run-up your cellular bill, re-program your favorite channels on the cable remote, and leave the cap off of the toothpaste tube, all after first keying your Lexus on the way up the driveway. It will lumber around on your computer like a 30-something, jobless, unemployed son-in-law that won't leave your couch "'cause X-Play is on". It will do this, all the while screaming "fire bad!", as it stumbles its way to the neighbor's house because you're "out of Mountain Dew and Doritos."

    I am very glad that I never had to cross paths with this thing, let alone having to explain to people why they can get what they need if they "just google it".

  98. Dangerous - call your lawyer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's fine until one of your employees begins sexually harrassing someone using the IM. What you weren't keeping proper logs? Oh, you were but wont turn over the entire system logs, your own personal data backups etc on your home system? What, now you are now being sued as a party to a crime/harassment?

    You may think this is far fetched, but it happened at my last office. There are reasons IM's are banned at many offices.

  99. two ends of one stick by shentino · · Score: 1

    If I were the boss of a company with an IT department, I would trust my geeks.

    Unless and until someone passes muster with IT, and/or proves that they are worthy of the title of "geek", they are absolutely not allowed to install anything themselves.

    Screwing with computers is an automatic termination if you do not have an IT certificate!

    My concern isn't too much productivity and "lording it over" my users, but rather, security.

    There's simply too much malware out there that can, pardon the pun, worm its way into a user's machine for me to trust a mere novice to be mucking about. Heck, I'm a nerd myself and even I got hit with a boot sector virus. Granted it was an old machine donated to me, but I still got burned.

    Now, here's the catch.

    Anyone who passes an IT competency exam will be granted the privilege of administrating their own machine.

    Users of both types are subject to having their computers periodically checked and searched for malware, porn, and other stuff.

    Slackers need to get off my payroll, as do boobs who get my machines compromised and in turn risk what is almost CERTAINLY confidential info. Heck, if one of those machines turns rogue, I could be facing a HUGE lawsuit. Which is precisely why I only want qualified geeks screwing with the machines to begin with.

    If someone is geeky enough to be trusted with the machine, AND he manages to get his work done, I really don't care if he plays solitaire or WoW. All I ask is that he do the job I hired him for without chewing up resources. If he can have fun in the process, more power to him.

  100. IT Department by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My IT department is a bunch of control freak who often hijack my conn... Sorry, I mean that the Gods of the IT Department are so nice, and lovely, and cute...

  101. Powerusers and their storage needs... by HockeyPuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Most "powerusers" go by the creed "Tis better to beg for forgiveness, than to ask for permission." Case in point, my team runs a Fortune 100 company's storage environment. We're running about 1.2PB of EMC DMX and NetApp storage (not including VTL). If a department needs NAS for some project we have a easy webpage for them to go to, they fill it out with the sharename they'd like, and we automatically find them a filer and create a 100GB CIFS/NFS share for them. Already integrated with active directory and NIS. End user can specify who can see it by specifying a group such as .group and everyone in their dept can have read/write access to it. Or you could just specify a list of users.

    Sounds pretty easy. It's backed up, regular hourly snapshots are taken. It's backed up to tape, firmware upgraded and when the lease on the filer is up, *WE* migrate all the data to another filer off hours and you continue on with your life. Anyhow...

    Some PowerUser user decided he wanted to 'play IT'. And decided he wanted his own storage that he could limit who accessed. While we would have been more than happy to allocate him 100GB of storage. He proceeded to go out and build some linux box under his desk with some home-office grade disk enclosure. He then demanded that *WE* back it up to tape, and *WE* integrate it in with NIS/active directory. It should also be known that the few outlets in the cubes are not spec'd to have servers/arrays plugged into them but laptop/dock and monitor type equipment.

    Long story short. Someone came along and walked off with the homeoffice disk array and all the data on it. I got to go to all the meetings and watch this asshat explain why he lost customer data.

  102. How much privs do 'powerusers' need? by HockeyPuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hey powerusers... how much privs do you need? You say you want to install whatever you want on your PC. Which btw you didn't purchase. You say you want to pick our the exact model of server your app runs on, but you don't want to be the one to stock the 97.56GB drives as replacements, nor do you want to carry a duty pager to swap out parts when they break at 2am.

    Why stop there? Why not just ask for the admin password on the core routers. I'm sure your expansive knowledge of networking (and installing dd-wrt on your linksys does not make a BGP expert out of you) could provide invaluable when the DWDM gear is malfunctioning. We're upgrading to AIX6 shortly, maybe your vast experience in managing/installing mysql at home will help us optimize a 10TB DB/2 database. Please help us out, since you installed parallels on your mac, you can lend us some of your expertise in VMs when we consolidate two z990s into a z10.

    You say you manage a 5TB nfs server at home? Please show us the wisdom of your ways as we try to consolidate 50 EMC DMX arrays so we can save on power and cooling.

    When we fuck-up, an entire company and its' customers feel the pain. When you fuck up, you prevent us from doing our job as we clean up your mess.

    Users should be given just enough privileges to do their job. This is why you do not have root on your server, you download pre-packaged software from the intranet, you do not have admin on the core routers, physical access to the datacenter and why we don't "tinker." You want to tinker, go work in your garage where you can tell your wife that you built a jumpstart server for the two linux boxes in your home media center and thump your chest. We support hundreds, thousands of users whom would rather spend their days focusing on doing their job.

    1. Re:How much privs do 'powerusers' need? by Inda · · Score: 1

      Hey SuperAdmin!

      We don't need all that. We just need to be trusted a little.

      I have an issue on this PC where PDF hyperlinks in office documents cause Acrobat to open then close imediately. I Googled the issue. MS KB says to upgrade Acrobat from v7.0 to v7.01... Three days I've been waiting for someone with admin privileges to come and click a button. That was after I was told to shell out for a v8.0 licence!

      Don't hide the C:\ drive from me. I know how the address bar works!

      Don't lock down cmd.exe when batch files still work! No, spending a day renaming 1000 files is not practical.

      Don't even get me started on letting me query databases with SQL commands... It's childs play! I have over 20 years of computer experience ffs! Computers are not 'magical'! ...do your job. Come click an upgrade button for me.

      --
      This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
  103. There, I corrected it for you by laejoh · · Score: 0

    ...But they could be your biggest asshats, ...

    There, I corrected it for you!

  104. Timely for me... by Talkischeap · · Score: 1

    Interesting article.

    I'm a programmer at a public radio station and "they" (station management) won't install a fellow programmers music database for him, so he just called me asking for me to "hack" it for him and install his database.

    Nothing a little flash distro of Puppy LINUX can't do.

    All fixed, and nobody's the wiser (because our sys op isn't exactly a pro).

    --
    If it don't GO... chrome it. ~ Frank Banks