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China to Deploy Secure GPS by 2010
hackingbear writes "Unsatisfied by the reliance on American GPS navigation systems and not feeling much security joining the European Galileo system, China will expand its 4-satellite Beidou navigation system to a full-fledged, competitive, and encrypted system by 2010."
and will Tibet be in the correct location?
One of the big concerns about the Chinese system is interference with the US and European GPS systems, and up until now there haven't been any set specs to start a meaningful discussion over.
Cuban Music MP3's - cuband.com
Too bad most of the satellites will be knocked out of orbit by all the debris their last little stunt in orbit left behind.
China joined the project, but was using it for design and IP capabilities. If you look carefully, you will find that they had little desire to be part of that group, but wanted to know how to design the entire system and how to defeat the opposition. IOW, EU has shown China how to shut down their system, or how to just control it. But hey, EU did gain a few bucks from China. Smart on China's part, and really stupid on EU's part.
And will this mean that my take-away will be delivered on time and, importantly, to the correct address? I hope so!
Great, now they can spread peace and harmony more precisely, +/- 1m.
I have the feeling the expansion of this system has an ulterior motive. I'm sure they're right, from their point of view, about the other GPS networks. I don't doubt them. I do doubt their good intentions though. A new "feature" of their expanded GPS network will probably be to tell the police exactly where the user is. It might even end up mandatory. I know I probably sound a little extreme, and for all I know, I could be wrong. I'm just not very trusting of any government. The UK is becoming an Orwellian surveillance state, America is getting "Real ID" or something. I don't know much about it. Here in Australia, various government factions keep pushing for a national ID card, disguising it under various names to try and fool the sheep, or "voters", as we prefer to be known. I just wouldn't put it past a country that is known to heavily censor the internet and spy on citizens' internet use, to basically microchip everyone to know exactly where they are. Why stake out the house of a dissident, when they can track his movements and arrest everyone involved with them, without lifting a finger and exposing their domestic spies?
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
Quite obviously this is because in times of war, the Chinese could find themselves locked out of either the US or EU systems. If they are going to tightly integrate GPS capabilites into military units - a no brainer - they want to have a closed system that noone can pull the plug on come WW3.
As my philsophical opponents say so often "This is'nt rocket science".
Who says it should be global? As information given in the wikipage, the satellites are on the geostationary orbit. can't we have networks of different positioning system? such as global cell phone networks, satellite Tvs, phones, internet that we have today? if geostationary satellites can provide better and more focused service in that region why not use more of them to improve precision? and why don't we have GPS towers like cell phone towers that we have? why not integrate GPS capability into those cell towers? perhaps radio towers? and electric grids? In crowded cities, it might worth a lot. haven't we all cruise through lakes and across buildings? and get lost on that same block over and over? and wouldn't it be far from now to actually get to use new GPS technologies? it is always military who gets it first until much better one comes out?
No way around it, too much military equipment needs this these days. No one in China doubts that the USA would shut them out of the GPS at the slightest confrontation and the EU is a weakling and would crawl under American pressure. Unfortunatly that will mean that soon India will need it's own system as well since they also don't trust the USA very much. (USA has been funding pakistan through all the wars they had)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I know how PGP works down to the algorithmic level, yet I can't break into somebody else's PGP-secured data.
I was about to say 13256278887989457651018865901401704640, but it appears this number is private property.
I can see why they won't trust the American system, but why not the nicer European system? Is there something in Galileo that won't fit their communist dictatorship agenda?
This is yet another lame move from the Chinese government. Instead of trying to reduce their huge inequality, or at least improving the quality of life for the billion living in poverty, they waste their relatively modest budget duplicating efforts just because they want to play big, as if they were some sort of Europe or USA. The problem is, people aren't dying of hunger in Europe or the USA. This is the same crap the USSR (and today's Russia, to a lesser extent) did.
I was about to say 13256278887989457651018865901401704640, but it appears this number is private property.
Lack of ability on your part does not mean lack of ability for others.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It wasn't clear from the bluargh, but encryption apparently means that there is a mode where the satellites encrypt the signals they send to the ground so that only those invited can use it. A bad thing, in other words.
Swedish plasma phys. PhD student; MSc EE; knows maths, programming, electronics; finance interest; seeks opportunities
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Actually I found an interesting article on this. The French invented a trick to make sure that the US would be unable to jam Galileo in a warzone. US allies like the UK and the Eastern Europeans forced them to not do this and so the Chinese decided to make their own fork.
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/643/1 According to an article in last week's Space News, the Europeans and the US are disturbed by China's planned Compass military satellite navigation system. The Chinese are going to try to do to both America's GPS 3 and Europe's Galileo systems what the Europeans, under French leadership, tried to do to the US. Europe originally planned to neutralize the military advantage of the US system by putting their signal on a frequency so close to the US M-code one that any attempt to jam their signal would interfere with the US system's operation: a neat trick that was aimed at giving France a de facto veto over all US military operations. The rest of Europe didn't care to follow France into a conflict of this kind with the US so they forced France to swallow an agreement on this (See "Whatâ(TM)s the frequency, Jacques?", The Space Review, March 1, 2004)
China's existing Beidou navigation network is a clumsy system based on three satellites, (two operational and one reserve) in geosynchronous orbit, launched between 2000 and 2003. Its military uses have been limited, but it is suspected that they include providing guidance for the ICBMs China has aimed at US targets. Above all, this system has given China hands-on operational experience with satellite navigation hardware. Combined with the sophisticated science and engineering data they have been able to obtain from Europe, they are now in a position to begin work on their own military satellite navigation system. Australia, the US, Japan, and India can thank the good folks at ESA and the EU for the subsequent increased instabilityâ"or worseâ"in the region. Kind of scary isn't it that China is spending billions building something which is only useful if they fight a major war with the US.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
They're probably not even clones - they're probably from the actual iPhone production line that just "accidentaly" got siphoned off late one night.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Private enterprise ? In China ? With no generals whatsoever involved ?
How novel.
May contain traces of nut.
Made from the freshest electrons.
It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Wonder what else they will add to the birds? Since they're using a Geosynchronous orbit, that does limit what they can add on with good effect. Now I'll be even less likely to use a cell phone in China (provided I go back).
Invenio via vel creo
You could, for example, consider the difference in what the US achieve in South Korea versus what China achieved in North Korea. If you think what the US did was evil there, well then, good for you.
The opposite of progress is congress
First, China is a very proud nation and as such will not allow itself to be dependent on any other nation for services it can provide itself. They also are trying to express themselves on the world stage as a world power and mostly do this by repeating the same technological achievements other countries of similar stature already have done. Its kind of like a rite of passage.
As for the population, China really is two distinct countries when it comes to its people. Now I know you can divide up the population into various ethnic groups but it comes down to you are either part of the Communist system or your not. So you have a couple hundred million in the one camp, with all the benefits of modern life, and then the rest who are still essentially not much more progressed since the the beginning of the last century.
The problem is, China really could not give a rats ass what you, I, or the world thinks. Any attempt to tell them and they take it as an insult. The big concerns going forward are not what happens to China's people but what China attempts with its neighbors. This makes the GPS development interesting in that it increases their threat capability. Considering the fact that its nearly a monthly exercise their threats against Taiwan take on even more seriousness with this expanded capability. This allows them to accurately deliver weapons to targets far beyond their borders. This means they can simply ignore the pleas of the world should they decide to finally address Taiwan in a military manner. It provides a good threat projection versus the US as well.
We can hope they will use the technology to better the lives of their people but unless you part of the first group in China I doubt they can or want to. Simply put the numbers are too large and the territorial issues are extreme in many cases. Combine this with the fact many would just preferred to be left alone and its hard to imagine why the government would bother unless national interest were at stake.
China doesn't want to play big, they already are. They simply want the respect they feel they are not getting. The Olympics were a gesture by some feel good misdirected people on the world stage made to China. Unfortunately China didn't care about all the supposed conditions these people attached, they saw it only as a means to elevate their status in the world and redirect some attention from the unsavory side of their activities. Unfortunately too many in the world are willing to go along. Unfortunately too many people like to vilify the US for things that in China get a pass. Perhaps its because at least with the US there is a chance of changing the behavior.
My friend came back from China teaching English there for a few years, even with a native as a wife. Go figure, anyway what China has a problem with is that many of these highly educated young people don't want to stay. His view was that all this modern conveniences and such were like a bribe to keep the people the nation's leaders need to keep the country going. Basically buy the people off with shiny stuff.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
That's how international diplomacy works. If you can't threaten another country you don't have any real leverage over them. In the same way nobody ever really intended to fire their strategic nuclear weapons back in the cold war, it does not seem likely that China would want to start a war with the US. This does give them some extra leverage in case some American president starts saber rattling in their direction however.
I read the internet for the articles.
With this new system things are getting pretty ridiculous. Enough countries have shown that they now have the ability to launch a GPS style system that no one is going to be able to disable all the available systems and there will be no military advantage on either side.
Kind of scary isn't it that China is spending billions building something which is only useful if they fight a major war with the US.I'm hoping for someone to just open up the systems properly so we can get away from the waste of money this is becoming.
Also, stop the scare mongering. By your logic the US's ability to jam the civilian GPS signal and keep the military one is only useful if they want to fight a major war with China.
"Difference is the US is setting the state so Iraq has political and economic self-determination."
The US is ensuring that the economic output of Iraq benefits primarily the US. Iraq was economically, politically and even socially better off under Saddam than it is now, unless you measure welfare in a method that doesn't include death rates, disease proliferation, violent political instability and economic trauma.
As for South Korea, South Korean industry benefits the US, which is why the US allows SK self-determination. That would change in a heartbeat were SK to decide to align themselves more closely with, say Europe. Also, it's a single isolated example. Lets look at US intervention in Nicaragua, Panama, Vietnam, Chile, Haiti, and El-Salvador. Now ask yourself what is the most likely outcome for Iraq and Afghanistan.
If you think the US is attempting to provide a better life for the populations of foreign nations rather than ensure that its own commercial interests are made incumbent in those nations, then you're living in a Fox News televised fantasy world.
The Iraq occupation is about ensuring that when the dust settles, the Iraqi industry is dominated by US contractors and businesses so that the lions share of the profits from that economy are under US control. Not to mention that the businesses in charge of Iraqi oil will be beholden to US corporate assets.
Time for a wake up call, my friend.
I hate printers.
Then you couldn't possibly be talking about the absurdly overblown threat from terrorism or the fabricated monsters in Beijing, as neither of those threats are really a threat to the US that couldn't be solved by a little less aggression and exploitation in US foreign policy.
I hate printers.
When people were complaining the EU was duplicating USA efforts for no good reason, well, we now know why they/we do it. It's no coincidence the EU, Russia and now also China are making their own GPS, just like they have their own nukes. Mark this: a consequence will be that India seeks more alliance with Gallileo (read: unofficial permission to build military grade systems on it), or starts to roll out it's own system.
This was inevitable. I remember, about a year back, in India, over a beer, discussing the defense scenario with a colleague who was an engineer/researcher with the Indian Navy for about 20 years. His words -- "What we need is a secure GPS system soon. We all know the American version is civilian and of course they can shut it down whenever they want. It is a major desirable in your defense program." I think the Chinese too think the same way. They just came up with it. I would not be surprised if India announced the same within half a decade.
It is what it is. A desirable in the military program. Period.
Strange that this kind of stupid scaremongering gets modded up - oh, what am I talking about, this is slashdot.
/. every time this is brought up, but you might as well get used to it, because it will come back to haunt us for years to come.
So China choose to rely on their own stuff, just like the Europeans, because in their view America doesn't seem like a very reliable partner; and who can blame them, after nearly 8 years of Bush and the neocons? I realize that it pisses a lot of people off on
And what is that nonsense about "it showed them how to build their own"? As if they aren't fully capable of thinking on their own. As far as I can see they entered into that partnership in good faith, and left when they had reason to feel that their good faith has been betrayed. There are many good reasons why China would want a closer partnership with Europe - one of them of being that they can see their advantage in having the US marginalised a bit, of course. And as things look at the moment, that can't be all bad either; the world needs a better balance of power, and the US could do with a bit of humble pie.
"Difference is the US is setting the state so Iraq has political and economic self-determination."
Except of course when it comes to Oil, Iraq's most important economic resource. Fat chance they will be allowed to sell theirs to Russia or China, no matter what price they're offered.
ok, sorry, i did not realize that this was meant as a response to the allocation of money and i agree (i was not the one posting the original argument however).
Only thing one *could* still bring forward is that once people have a certain minimum level of living standard, even if obscenely lower than the rich ones, as is the case in many western countries, it is a bit less evil to spend the country's resources on prestige projects.
However I personally see this point slightly differently anyways: an investment in high-tech will probably have a positive net-effect on the Chinese economy and hence, on the economical conditions of its citizens.
Macro-economics is not a zero-sum game anyways like e.g. the economics of a private household.
One point about the citation about poverty: I have trouble understanding how poverty is defined and even compared across countries. There are probably hundreds of definitions, some based on the median or mean income a certain subset of the population, some based on absolute income in some currency, some based on the value of a loaf of bread or similar. So while the "turbo-capitalsim of the communist dictatorship" model of doing things in China has certainly improved the situation of many, it is hard to judge from such numbers how exactly and for many people exactly things changed.
And of course: 8% of a billion is still a quite large number.
Simple. Just one command. Can you shut it down?
The US DoD didn't built the GPS system so civillians can navigate - the civillian version can be turned off in regions where the US is at war with a technologically sophisticated opponent and the military version left on so only US forces have access to precision location information. This is why China wants it's own GPS system, in case of a major war with the US.
Why does everyone think it's China that would start something? Really, if all the civilian GPS units in the US could be turned off by any other country (be it Russia, Britain, Canada, China or India), we'd be trying our hardest to build our own system that was independent of that foreign power's system. This is why Europe wants its own GPS system and no surprise China wants its own as well. It's not that they are planning a war with the US. It's in case the US ever decides to bitchy and threaten areas that now depend on GPS about the civilian GPS being turned off that both Europe and China are doing this.
I'm sorry, but I can't put this in the that country is evil for doing it column. I'd put it more in the that country has sane leadership and forward thinking enough to secure themselves against possible enemies.
Hey, the US has defense plans just in case we ever go to war with Mexico, Canada, Britain, or the entire EU. Just because we have those plans doesn't mean that we'd ever have to use them though.
No, but I trust a Slashdot user over a bunch of tech-dead lawyers any day. Just because they don't understand how PGP works doesn't mean it is broken.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
Gee, thanks a lot Nixon.
Large amounts of military spending certainly makes any country potentially more dangerous, but honestly the most dangerous prospect is nuclear war. It's unlikely that any nation will attack another nation with nuclear weapons because of mutually assured destruction. If the US did go to war with China, everybody on Earth would be dead and humans would be responsible for their own extinction. Likewise if China just whimsically says, "Hey I'm going to invade Russia" - well, that would end humanity too. The only wars between nations that won't end human existence are wars where the aggressor has nukes and the defender doesn't, or if both nations don't have nukes. If we didn't have international treaties and an understanding of mutually assured destruction, it's clear that homo sapiens would have died out before a lot of us were even born.
It's good to keep an eye on military spending, but I'm getting sick of the baseless hype about a potential "China/whatever nuclear power conflict", because if there was, we'd all be dead.
Hmmm. Are these the same group of /.s that said that USA is not spying, and then when it was shown that they were, said that USA is not spying on it own?
In a real security world, you assume that it is not only broken, but fully cracked as well.
The US is ensuring that the economic output of Iraq benefits primarily the US.
Because you wouldn't want anyone to pay for the price of liberty.
Iraq was economically, politically and even socially better off under Saddam than it is now, unless you measure welfare in a method that doesn't include death rates, disease proliferation, violent political instability and economic trauma.
Only because of the terrorists who have been actively destroying pipelines (Iraq losses money), destroying infrastructure (rebuilt), or creating hot spots, which prevent restoration and improvement of conditions. Blame the right people. Life if Iraq would be leaps and bounds better than pre-war if it were not for the terrorists purposely keeping Iraq in the stone ages; contrary to the US' efforts. The terrorists have wasted/destroyed/terrorized hundreds of millions (likely billions) of dollars from the Iraqi people.
Remember, the bulk of the Iraqi people are angry at the US, not for invading but because the war continues and the terrorists continue to make their life horrid. Now that we are finally getting mind share and few Iraqi people are helping the terrorists, they are starting to see conditions improve. In parts of the country, conditions are rapidly improving. Again, blame the right people.
If the Iraqi people want improvements, they have to be part of the solution rather than be the problem. Remember, they are not used to being part of any solution. They are used to being puppets. Being part of a solution is something completely new to them and didn't come natural; which was something out leadership didn't immediately understand.
Iraq and Afghanistan.
You can't lump the two together. Afghanistan has a coalition effort, well supported by its people. Its likely outcome is liberty and self determinism. In fact, Afghanistan's primary crop is almost completely unwanted by the US.
The Iraq occupation is about ensuring that when the dust settles, the Iraqi industry is dominated by US contractors and businesses so that the lions share of the profits from that economy are under US control.
You are right but are still out in left field. At this rate, it will take the US thirty plus years to break even from its "investment". By anyone's stick, that's a very poor return...and yet we are still there. And in thirty years, anything can change in that part of the world. Sure, the US needs a security oil supply, but there is a long list of reasons to be there.
Time for a wake up call, my friend.
Sounds like good advise. Hopefully you'll embrace it too.
which is totally what she said
"Pay the price of liberty."
Sir, your naivety is truly staggering. If I were as good at anything as you are at being utterly misled, I'd have won a Nobel Prize, twice. I simply cannot compete with your level of skill in this regard, so I hereby, for the first time ever, throw in the towel. Yes, I completely concede the point to you. Congratulations.
I hate printers.
Indeed. On a related note, China and the U.S. could even be considered allies in some hypothetical situations. For instance, a war on the Korean peninsula.
China's still a threat, though. Just as they're ensuring independence from US GPS, other powers are no doubt ensuring that Beidou can be made to go away at the press of a button, should the need arise.
Sir, your naivety is truly staggering.
Naivety is tragic from the one doing the finger pointing is such an aggressive manner. Sadly, your smart ass answer lands squarely on your own shoulders. Which frankly, is funny. The *reality* is, the Iraqi people have been liberated. That's fact. The question is, what shape will their liberty take? Democracy is the answer if the US has anything to do with it, and with good reason. But, there is nothing ensuring, even a democracy, will take shape mirroring anything in the west. Regardless of how cliche you believe it is, liberty has a financial cost associated. Period.
You may be against the war, but it doesn't change the fact, Iraq has been liberated. Even the Iraqi people will tell you as much. That doesn't mean they like the situation. That doesn't mean they all love the US and every last American. But like it or not (you obviously don't), Iraq has been liberated.
Excellent post! Informed, pragmatic rationalism based on facts - uncommon in /. discussions about international affairs.
See also a very informative article from the Atlantic Monthly: How We Would Fight China by Robert Kaplan, an experienced journalist covering U.S. foreign affairs and the military. Detailed description of China's current military, with short- and long-term views of their military growth.
A tiny exceprt: (please keep in mind that Kaplan isn't advocating for confrontation, but doing a thorough analysis of what might happen if foolish politicians get us into such a mess).
" At the moment the challenges posed by a rising China may seem slight, even nonexistent. The U.S. Navy's warships have a collective "full-load displacement" of 2.86 million tons; the rest of the world's warships combined add up to only 3.04 million tons. The Chinese navy's warships have a full-load displacement of only 263,064 tons. The United States deploys twenty-four of the world's thirty-four aircraft carriers; the Chinese deploy none (a principal reason why they couldn't mount a rescue effort after the tsunami)."
"China has committed itself to significant military spending, but its navy and air force will not be able to match ours for some decades. The Chinese are therefore not going to do us the favor of engaging in conventional air and naval battles, like those fought in the Pacific during World War II...Instead the Chinese will approach us asymmetrically...But the Chinese are poised to show us the high end of the art. That is the threat."
"There are many ways in which the Chinese could use their less advanced military to achieve a sort of political-strategic parity with us. According to one former submarine commander and naval strategist I talked to, the Chinese have been poring over every detail of our recent wars in the Balkans and the Persian Gulf, and they fully understand just how much our military power depends on naval projection--that is, on the ability of a carrier battle group to get within proximity of, say, Iraq, and fire a missile at a target deep inside the country. To adapt, the Chinese are putting their fiber-optic systems underground and moving defense capabilities deep into western China, out of naval missile range--all the while developing an offensive strategy based on missiles designed to be capable of striking that supreme icon of American wealth and power, the aircraft carrier. The effect of a single Chinese cruise missile's hitting a U.S. carrier, even if it did not sink the ship, would be politically and psychologically catastrophic, akin to al-Qaeda's attacks on the Twin Towers. China is focusing on missiles and submarines as a way to humiliate us in specific encounters. Their long-range-missile program should deeply concern U.S. policymakers."
--- --- --- ---
Also from the Atlantic Monthly:
Superiority Complex - Why America's growing nuclear supremacy may make war with China more likely Again, detailed anaylsis of possible flashpoints and the resulting warfare. Section title: "Strategic Implications of the Nuclear Imbalance"
Really?
The opposite of progress is congress
Hmmm, I think he meant that he preferred Chile with a democratically elected president, as opposed to a dictator installed by the U.S. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._intervention_in_Chile).
Sure, the situation in Chile is different now, but that's an example of U.S. involvement that went against democracy. Allende was Marxist and it was in our own best interest -at the height of the Cold War- to prevent communism from spreading. But that doesn't change the fact that we supported a coup against a democratically elected leader.
The claim that we (the U.S.) are morally superior and can fight wars of "good" against "evil" is pure propaganda. But what is true is that, in the end, our government has the responsibility to defend our interests. Pretending we're trying to help people is demagogy.
(I do not support our invasion and continued occupation of Iraq, but am for internationally sanctioned and coordinated efforts, such as the one in Afghanistan - the fact that we blatantly ignored what the rest of the world thought and invented fake pretexts to invade Iraq is a different story)
This space up for sale.
The Beidou system returns time after after a query from a terminal. They can only handle so many requests a minute. On the other hand US and Euro system continually broadcast time and location information.
Both Taiwan and South Korea were essentially dictatorships up until about 10-15 years ago. Liberty had nothing to do with their relative prosperity today. In the case of both South Korea and Taiwan, they have received massive aid packages from the U.S., which is the primary reason for the rapid growth of their economies.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
I wonder why the Chinese just don't take over the Russian GLONASS system.
Does the world really need *four* parallel GPS systems? Three should be more than enough.
The Russians and Chinese are close enough, that you'd think the Russians would welcome the help to complete their GLONASS system.
Dr. Demento On The 'Net!
Someone with some points, mod the parent up!! The link to the article in Foreign Affairs is brilliant.
There will not be a war, it's all nuanced.
Let's not forget that China's overwhelming concern for centuries has been how to keep things in order. Esp. now, if 10^9 peasants decide to act, there aren't enough bullets in the world to "restore order." So all external moves must have an internal component that the US is unfamiliar with. Without the opiate of mass media and "popular culture" China has a serious challenge to keep the homeboys happy.
But seriously: mod piemcfly's comment UP.
Yeah, but the thing is I'm English and live in Taiwan. A world dominated by the US is fine by me. China being able to challenge the US even regionally is not, because the place I live would get levelled in a war.
If the Pentagon had PayPal, I'd make a donation.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Actually most of the electronics is designed in Taiwan but manufactured in China. Hell even the ones designed in China are designed by private companies, not state owned ones since state owned ones don't exactly concentrate on consumer electronics. So I'd guess most of the money from iPhone clones goes to private enterprise.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;