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French Judge Orders Refund For Pre-Installed XP
Racketiciel writes "A French user asked for a refund after buying an ASUS computer
that came with Windows XP and other software pre-installed. ASUS tried to
apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer than they
will give back... The court ruled in favor of the user,
who received back 130 Euro (~200 $) for the software.
Here is the ruling (PDF, French). In France, this is the fourth victory for refund seekers during the last two years,
and many people are now filing for refunds (in French). Two French associations (AFUL
and April) published
a press release on this victory the same day an important hearing happened." The English-language press release linked above gives a pretty good idea of what happened here, for those unsuited to wading through French.
welcome our anti-XP French overlords.
I don't know that I have anything solid to base this on, but I've always guessed that the real cost per copy that larger systems makers have to pass on to Microsoft is more in the $30 range.
.."système d'exploitation". In the case of Windows, that seems appropriate.
To me this feels like she bought a car with power windows and AC then went back to the place that sold her the vehicle and forced them to take out the parts. Not only that but then pay her money for the value of window motors and air-conditioning as if they had been bought separately. She knew what came with it when she bought it, why should the company be forced to refund those features she later decided she no longer needed?
Its not like there aren't other computers on the market without those features.
You bought what you bought. If you took the XP as part of the package, you should be stuck with it. You knew what the EULA was. Don't like it? Choose one of the many systems from another vendor that come with Linux or no OS.
But... It's not the OEM's job to decide for you what software to run. If you want just the computer with no OS on it you should have that option. If people use declining the EULA to work around the fact that OEMs don't offer no-OS options or the crudware is just offensive, I guess that's the best we can do.
If enough people did this, the no-OS option would become available. But... society is too litigious already and more of this doesn't help.
Can't we all just get along?
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Did he know it came with XP Pre-Installed?... If he did, I don't agree with this, if he didn't, then I do, provided it wasn't his own negligence.
ASUS (or wherever distributor) probably has the option of having a barebones components only option for purchasing, so do that, or at least ask if you can get one if its not advertised.
If it says "Comes With Windows XP Pre-Installed"... and he bought it, and then said "hey wait I dont want this"... too damn bad... keep the machine, or send the entire PC back... its not like it failed (jokes aside) as if it was a dud NIC or something...
"ASUS tried to apply a procedure which cost more money to the consumer that they will give back..."
Tried? it seemed to have worked.
Anyone have a more informative non-french link to exactly what he bought, and what was advertised, etc?
Negro puleeze. I smell BS somewhere here. I seriously doubt ASUS pays $200 for a mere serial. If anything the user should have gotten back something less than $30, as an academic copy of XP can be bought for $30 nowadays. Heck Vista Ultimate Academic is buyable for $43.
I know some people will talk about "Well Windows is on most computers and it's hard to buy one without Windows" and that's true, but you also can't expect manufacturers to sell pre-built systems without an OS or with an unpopular one when most of their sales go to non-nerdy Windows users who are terrified of learning something new.
So, I'd say that if he bought the system online, then I'd support the courts ruling. If he went to some store to buy it, then I'd say that he willfully purchased something and then asked for a rebate because he got exactly what he purchased.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
It's in France after all!
(Came from the RSS feed, where there are no links.
Bitten Apples are still better than dirty Windows...
No reason to buy xp when you can get xp for free
Dependent sale: the guide of refunding of Racketiciel is âoea successâ
the drafting, published on April 9, 2008
Tags: linux, Windows, open source, legal, operating system, asus France, acer France, make an attempt judgement
Success of the guide of refunding of RacketicielThe Racketiciel work group, which is opposed to the dependent sale OS with a PC, is very requested since the publication last February of its guide of refunding. A text which describes the legal bases and procedures to obtain from a manufacturer of a PC the refunding of the operating system préinstallé, in general Windows.
Racketiciel, supported by Aful and April (*), also provides a legal assistance. âoeThe guide is a success. We receive a request per day to assist a consumer in a procedure of refundingâ, explains to ZDNet.fr, Alain Coulais, one of the persons in charge of Racketiciel (collective in the past GdT Détaxe).
A trentraine of presented dossiers
On the whole more than one about thirty files were presented since February. âoeAbout half has serious bases making it possible to launch a procedureâ, continues Alain Coulais, who thus expects a multiplication in France of the applications for repayment.
Between 2006 and 2008, three important lawsuits were gained: Asus France had to refund by twice a consumer, just like Acer France. The amount goes from 100 to 300 euros. A fourth similar lawsuit is on standby of judgement in Caen (14).
Heavier procedures were also initiated by UFC-That To choose, which continues for dependent sale Hewlett-Packard, Auchan and Darty.
(*) Aful: French-speaking association of the Users of Linux and the Free software;
April: Association of promotion and defense of the free software
By the drafting, ZDNet France
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Sometimes the law has to step in and give us real choice. "I want your x machine without Microsoft crap on it" is perfectly reasonable.
I'm glad to see this happening.
I want to see each and every pc sold anywhere available with a linux option, and if it has to be mandated by law, so be it.
Heil Clippy!!!
What is with all this France bashing from the US. You do realize of course that if it were not for France the United States would exist and most likely you would be part of Canada.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Can't MS just send some programmers over there to take over the country?
It's not like they'd put up a fight...
Congratulations! You have just won the "dumb fuck post of the week" award.
If the price for ANYTHING on a computer is raised for pre-installed items then the person should have the option of not having it installed. I hate to use the car analogy but, well, you *can* buy one without air conditioning and the price isn't added to the total. If you BUY a car (knowingly) with AC and then claim you didn't use it or want it you are shit out of luck in my humble opinion. However... If you buy a car, on some sort of special (as advertised), and the special is that you get AC at a discount then, well, again - even if you don't use it, I think you should be shit out of luck. Give people the freedom of choice to put whatever they want on their PCs.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
If not for the French, Canada wouldn't have Quebec either...
"you don't have a "right" to buy a computer not bundled with Windows XP"
Actually you're wrong, in France this is a right covered by law: two products sold together must be available alone too. You may agree or not with it, but in the end it's law and computer seller have to do it, so when an user go to court he wins.
Using unfair, stupid socialist software to attack competition is
stupid and evil.
Uh, why not? ASUS makes computers, Microsoft makes OSes. You shouldn't have to buy shitty product from another company that you dont want to get the product that you do want. End of story
All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
Your analogy is not sound, you _can_ buy a car without power windows or AC, it's extremely difficult to buy a computer without a Microsoft operating system.
The computer was sold with XP pre-installed & a "shrink-wrapped" EULA. She wanted a computer but not XP, but was unable to buy a computer without XP pre-installed. This is generally called "The Microsoft Tax", because people who buy computers in order to run other Operating Systems (yes there are others) are forced to pay this tax.
She didn't want to pay this "tax" so asked to be refunded the cost of XP.
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
I wonder if this would work for a Mac too - could you get one without OSX or get a refund on it if you didnt want to use it?
This will force the PC vendors (in France anyway) to provide better Linux options.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
But... all those stereotypes are mostly true. What was your point?
The Unicode standard is over 20 years old. Why does Slashdot not support it?
If they are willing to sell them together, it's their concern. You don't like it don't buy. I'd rather buy the product separately, but if that's not an option, I wouldn't consider FORCING them to offer that option.
\u262D = \u5350
Can't MS just send some programmers over there to take over the country?
It's not like they'd put up a fight...
You mean, like they did when they defeated the British Army and won the American War of Independence?
Yes, and likewise if not for the U.S., Paris would have been renamed "Hitlerstadt" and we'd all be speaking German.
Unlike USA - where the DOJ's anti-trust ruling has no real impact on MS's business - the Eurpoeans take this more seriously. They feel that there should be options other than the monopolistic one.
Forcing vendors to give back more than the XP cost sends a clear message: give non-MS options or feel the pain.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
You missed the point. The laws says that it is illegal to refuse to sell you a computer if you are willing to pay for it. The law also says that the store cannot legally tie two products together.
This means that if you want to buy a computer without the OS they must sell it to you without it
and not charge you for windows that you don't want.
The point is that the French being afraid/surrendering is a long running joke. I'd suggest the joke has its origins in the take-over of France in BOTH world wars, as well as the cowardliness shown by the French against the German's.
There was an Australian (I think) commander who said something along the lines of "I'd rather have 3 German Divisions in front of me than 1 French Division behind me". Of course that could just be a joke buried deep in my psyche (German Blood) but there it is.
Me failed English...
FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
While I am sure someone will inevitably locate some obscure stores that you can buy non-OS supplied laptops, (probably for a premium), but has anyone here actually ever tried to buy a laptop without an OS, it's pretty damn hard. I well understand that this is done from a sellers point to offer a complete solution that fits 99% of the market, and in turn MS locks the sellers in with reseller contracts that benefit MS.
This is fine, but to obstruct customers from not paying extra for the software they are forced (and the important word here is FORCED) to buy when they want a laptop is plain wrong, and clearly in some countries, illegal. If I want an Asus laptop because of some particular feature or price, and want to run my own software on it, why the hell shouldn't I be able to return the supplied software for a refund, AS MOST EULA"s VERY CLEARLY STATE AND OFFER!
In sales speak this is nothing more than a line item, and shouldn't be any more complicated than "I'd like to return the software as I don't agree with the EULA and would like a refund". The only reason it is at all a problem, is because MS do not want consumers enforcing their legal rights.
Or as most people seem to think, should we all "just suck it up" even though we don't agree with it?
As for the ruling. When do two wrongs make a right? This seems like a very meddlesome court. Sure they are fighting the excesses of bundling when monopoly software is involved. But I'd rather see them attack the root of the problem than set lousy practices like this as precedent.
As they say when elephants fight the grass gets hurt. Asus is the grass.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
actually the russians did all the hard work to win the war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II , so mebe you could argue that Paris would be Doestroyevskigrad or something.
Since when are Russians smart? The common joke is that they're just smart enough to make fun of the Polish (that is, not very smart).
And if not for the US, paris would be called pufter-grad and we'd all be speaking russian
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Microsoft defeated the British?
You can't force someone to accept the terms of a license simply thru purchase. If you could, then I would sell iPhones for $1 which also include my special new license that entitles me to half of your yearly salary.
Your "too bad you bought it" doesn't hold up. If it did, then does that mean that once we make the purchase we can copy and redistribute it? Or decompile and alter it? If you say "too bad you bought it", then I've got my own theory that says "too bad you sold it to me".
Well, it turns out that the situation isn't so lawless, because there's something called a software license. Once again, you can't force someone to accept a license, especially if you haven't even been given the opportunity to read the license yet. The license says that you don't have to accept it, but if you do then you can't do things such as modify the software or copy it and distribute it to others for free. But the people in bed with M$ are hoping that you won't decline the software license, because there's usually a part in it which says that you're entitled to a refund if you don't agree.
I applaud the people in these articles for standing up for their rights. It's not stupid socialist law, it's simply using the software license against M$. They're hoping you won't take them up on that part of the deal, and will blindly accept the Microsoft Tax even if you don't want it.
What surprises me is that the French got labelled as surrender-happy, when Norway, Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg all did the same thing, not to mention the Italians which switched sides in both world wars to avoid being the losing side.
:P ).
Btw France fought tooth and nail in the first world war, so its not from that (and it certainly wasn't taken over, you might want to brush up on history a bit
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
Russians are smart? That really seems like the odd-man out on your list. I've honestly never heard that stereotype before.
dont feed the trolls
Tied selling, whether applied to banks forcing you to buy insurance to get a loan, even when you are already insured, or to buying a PC with MS Windows pre-installed, is illegal in many jurisdictions. The MS EULA also says something to the effect that you can refuse to use it and get a refund. These lawsuits simply hold the sellers responsible for all their promises.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I look at it one of two ways:
(1) She bought the computer knowing it had Windows XP on the system and decided that she didn't like the terms after she bought it, ergo she (and the court / law is wrong) because you should not be able to modify the terms of a contract after it has been executed. (Even if you don't want to be party to the other party's outside deal.) You know the terms, deal with it.
Or (2) she bought a computer without regard to the specs (highly unlikely, but for the sake of arguement we'll go with it). She gets it home and finds it has something she didn't like. So she sued (after probably asking the company to refund it, which in my opinion they rightly and justifably denied). The law / court failed again, because there are vendors who sell computers without an OS (or an alternative OS) and she could have patronized their business. Yet she unjustifiably cried foul and forced a company give her a refund (essentially, saying that the company needs to sell its product her way, which is bullshit). Granted, however if France already has a law saying that a company HAS to sell computers without OS (which I don't think any particular country does, but again for sake of arguement I'll assume they do), then ASUS is in the wrong.
Truthfully, if it were my company I'd analyze how much profit is actually earned from that country and if it wasn't a mid to substantial amount (> than 15%) I'd tell the country (in this case, France) go fuck themselves (politely of course). If the government feels so strongly about it, let them sell computers they way they want them sold.
Regards,
MBC1977,
In france there are laws which protect consumers from abusive business practices. These laws FORCE vendors to provide unbundled products.
Instead of "if you don't like it don't buy" (ha ha ya'll consumers can blow me)
it is
"if you don't like it don't sell" (poor monopolists have to compete, go cry me a river)
The interesting question is, how did the people of france manage to get such cool laws. Why don't we have laws like this in america?
I swear...the lengths some french people will go to so as to not be forced to speak english.
You MUST be an american. I know of no german speaking like this. For a simple reason : they get history taught in college there. France was not "taken over" in both world war, only 1. The "great war" the trench/battle limit went back and forth north of France, but nobody took over France. For the second war, what did you expect them ? To die like a single man ? Are you for real ? You are aware that "die in honor" is an outdated previous century concept, and all modern commander would accept surrendering ? There was no cowardiness shown by france during WW2, don't get me started also on resistance and the work thereof under extremly awful condition (torture, execution, hostage killing etc...). And by perpetuating this mostly US joke, all you show is your pettiness of spirit. Jeez and I bet you will be one of the first to complain that french give you the finger.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Indeed, if anything there should be a law that requires vendors to give the option of buying a blank hard drive with the computer. Software bundles should be purely optional, including OS. Sort of like what the French ruling does, except without jumping through the hoops of having to apply for a refund.
Jesus loves me, he loves me a bunch, because he always puts Jiffy in my lunch.
It's likely that the world would be a very different place without France, without the US, and without any other major power. We all have lots to be thankful for to each other. Can't we all just get along?
Jesus loves me, he loves me a bunch, because he always puts Jiffy in my lunch.
refund seeks you!
It goes both ways, of course. There's plenty of America-bashing in France, and the United States has saved France from the Germans twice.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
So in your reasoning: If I bought a boeing jet-line, but it only came with passenger seats and I wanted a cargo version, you could force me to buy all the passenger seats?
None of this actually makes all that much sense. I buy a computer *knowing* that it comes with XP pre-installed. Hmmm. Why should I be able to ask for a refund - I knew it was there - I *didn't* have to buy that computer... There are plenty of places who will put together a computer and either let you put your own OS on, or will put one on for you. If there aren't then France isn't as cosmopolitan as we've been told. Really, it is simple. Buy what you want. Don't buy what you don't want. If you buy it and then find out you don't like it...well return the whole dang lot.
The fact is the Windows EULA is presented on first boot of any new computer that comes with windows.
This agreement states that if you do not agree to the terms you may turn off the computer and request a refund for Windows.
Anyone and Everyone who buys a new computer with windows pre-installed has the right to get a refund for Windows.
The reason this went to court was because ASUS was charging the customer more for shipping than they were refunding for Windows.
Anyone who says this shouldn't have gone to court is shooting themselves in the foot.. Even us in the USA have the right to return windows if we disagree with the EULA. I don't want OEM's making it cost me money to do so!
Yeah being part of Canada would be AWFUL. You'd have a decent minimum wage and free health care. What a nightmare that'd be.
The law explictly, specifically, prohibits tie-ins. It's the fucking law. It applies to carpets, car insurance, hair stylists and frozen vegetables. So why shouldn't it apply to computer and operating systems?
If you or Asus don't like it, why don't you fucking go to Russia or something?
1. It's the law. If you don't like French law, stay out of the fucking country, it's not like Asus was forced to come here anyway.
... A FUCKING REFUCKINGFUND. The judge said that a refund should be a full, no question asked, no bothersome bullshit ship your computer at your own cost pseudo refund.
2. It's the fucking law.
3. The EULA says that if you don't agree, you are entitled to
4. IT'S THE FUCKING LAW.
The issue here is not if any other system is available, beside Windows. Ths issue here is: is it "correct" to make it difficult for a customer to change ?
To me this is tied with antitrust regulation. A trust is a trust even if it does not have 100% of the market ! actually, Microsoft is probably eager to have some few percentages of "different" systems around so it can say "see, the customer HAVE choice !!!"
I also had bough an HP with Vista and had to zap it, did I get a refund ? no, why ? too long, too difficult. Was I able to use Windows XP ? no, no drivers on HP website, why ? (due to agreements with Microsoft)
To all the people "defending" Microsoft on this, cmon, this is really astroturfing. Do you want fair competition ? then have PC sold without OS and let people choose and pay for what thay want
The EULA says she has to abides by its term or get a refund if she declines. Well, guess what, the judge felt that the vendor had to respect the terms of what it put forth.
Big fucking surprise.
This thread is so full of fail, it's painful.
You might also note that the power windows and AC are not provided to the car manufacturer by a company that has been ruled to be a monopoly.
To complete the analogy, the power windows would only roll down half way and, once rolled down, will never fully roll up again leaving your car vulnerable to thieves. And the AC system leaks and has to be replaced every six months or it starts to get increasingly less efficient.
If all but 2 available cars shipped with those shitty power windows and AC and the cost of those two components represented ~10% of the cost of the car, you can be damn well sure that people would be clamoring for a refund or the ability to buy a car without those two components installed...especially if there was a quality after-market installer who could replace both components for free.
One might note that the free installer's product has 17 knobs for the power windows to control every aspect of the opening and closing process and all of them can be configured to do something completely different by the user, should they so choose. The AC also has many controls that force the user to choose temperature, humidity, and the force at which the air comes out of the vents (everything in metric, of course).
No, we can't because you forgot Poland, you insensitive clod!
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
I'm pretty sure the gp meant that it is extremely difficult to buy a computer with a non-Microsoft operating system, that gives you freedom as to what hardware you can use.
If the memory of the people in the US went a little more back into history they'd also notice that France actually totally kicked the Western World's ass lead by a tiny Corsican. It's not like the can't fight, you know.
And Germany (then Prussia) saved the world from France once. At the battle of Waterloo.
Not only did Blücher's troops play a huge part in it, Wellington's troops also had a big share of German troops.
So I guess if you dig around long enough then most of the major nations have once saved other nation's asses and at other times kicked other nation's asses. So what.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Yeah, but I doubt that was the parent post's point, rather a computer without any operating system.
But since you brought up Apple, what if someone for whatever reason wanted to by an Apple computer, but didn't want OSX? Apple doesn't give you the option to buy a Mac pro w/o an OS. Of course that's a moot point, since most people would buy a Mac because of the OS rather than them simply getting a PC and taking whatever OS they're given.
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
I find it even more astonishing to see the lengths most English native speakers go to as not to be forced to speak any other language at all.
I've been living in Japan for 12 years now, and it's really amazing how perseveringly most English native speakers manage not to learn the local language beyond the level of a 4-year-old. It's amazing.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Actually Norway never surrendered. They moved their administration to London.
When one wrong = 1.5 lefts?
You are wrong about Norway. Norway never surrendered. While its army was completely defeated some two months after the invasion. It fought tooth and nail, as you put it, but in reality it the best it could do was to delay the inevitable occupation - which is was quite successful at, seeing how the King Haakon VII and government was able to safely leave the country and continued to lead the resistance movement from exile in London throughout the whole war.
After the occupation Norway continued to aid the Allied cause however it could. The most significant contribution was probably Nortraship, the Norwegian merchant fleet, at the time the biggest in the world with around 1000 vessels.
Wikipedia has a nice page about it, "Norwegian_Campaign", worth checking out if you're interested in Norwegian history with regards to WW2.
You are correct, my apologies.
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
History is never simple. It is just as wrong to just remember the resistance and not the rest
See "Le Chagrin et la pitie" for a more nuanced view of the different reactions to the Germans in occupied France.
Those drunken partying Danes, at least hid and smuggled out their Jewish population.
After all, they're only interested in their customer's benefit. Surely MS is glad that french customers have now more choice than ever.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
The "French surrender a lot" meme is different - whatever its origin, and the Onion article that helped propagate it in the ~2000 timeframe, the US right wing started pushing it heavily during the run-up to the US invasion of Iraq, because the French weren't jumping onto Bush's bandwagon, and it was a convenient way to get the rubes to attack anyone who wasn't cooperating, further drawing them in to the neo-con's frame of reference.
But it was especially important for Bush, because the obvious name to call the Iraqis who fought back against the US-led invasion would have been The "Iraqi Resistance", in parallel to the French Resistance of WWII, who everybody remembers at least vaguely as having been brave fighters against an overwhelming attacker, which was really really not the meme that Rove et al wanted to have around.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I think you'll find that it's part of the American culture to assume that they got where they are on their own, under their own steam by the sweat of their own brow, and that the rest of the world is a bunch of useless incompetent fools who blunder along blindly. Kind of the same attitude that teenagers have about their parents and grandparents. Not having the slightest clue what it was like for them and that they haven't actually gone through *anything* without someone holding their hand yet.
The truth of history is completely at odds with this, Americas success came from being geographically isolated from it all and more than a bit of international help when needed. This and the same double crossing ruthlessness that they accuse the rest of the world of has led to the USA of now, not some magical concoction of pixie dust available only to Americans. Just population and a smooth run for over 100 years. My country's the same, but we just call ourselves lucky.
It's nicer to believe myths than the truth, especially a truth that painfully goes against everything you 'know'.
Even the truth of what the French endured last century is quite painful to understand to a reasonable person. How many tens of millions dead and wounded, how viciously they fought in WW1, under conditions that make Iraq and Vietnam look like a stay at the Hilton in comparison. Where chemical weapons were used by both sides like regular munitions, fields were metres thick with the dead tens of thousands of men, who died to gain inches of land. Then 20 years later they have to do it all over again.
Then fifty years later three thousand out of two hundred million yanks die in the first attack on her home soil...well ever, and the biggest tantrum in the last fifty years is thrown and we're told over and over and over again how we should all feel so sorry and damn it, it's just the worst thing ever to happen to anyone! We listen for nearly a decade about how awful it all was, patting them on the head, saying "there there it's ok". All the while quietly waiting for them to grow a pair and grow the fuck up. How they have the audacity to put shit on the frogs who each and everyone lived through, experienced *personally* not just on the TV or paper, and fought valiantly in the most awful warfare in the history of this world...twice, when they carry on like such a bunch of drama queens about such a tiny incident in the history of the world is quite frankly embarrassing.
It's ok to have a bit of a dig and friendly rivalry, but the yanks seem to have started believing their bullshit. The comparison of an immature bratty teenager really is apt.
This whole argument has nothing to do with IF the supplier offers systems without the product. The whole argument here is that as a user you can choose not to agree with the EULA and therefore are not buying the software.
What the court has said was that it was not fair to charge you $200 for the software but only refund you $25 if you didn't choose to accept it.
And doesn't matter where you are from or how you buy your software/systems/pc - charging you $200 for something and refunding you $25 for it in an unused state is simply not fair.
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MSI announced two versions of the "Wind" UMPC notebook, Windows versions and Linux versions.
They are pulling this scam too by making the linux version with 50% less RAM, 50% less battery and taking away bluetooth!
Needless to say, many are miffed that they would have an unwanted software charge attached to the price just to get the more capable hardware!
Independent of this article I was bloody well going to ask for a refund on the unused XP as the precedent is already several years old IIRC. This news just makes my surety to demand it off them go from 50% to 95%.
Honestly, would Apple care? Whenever a discussion on /. comes up on why Apple does not allow OSX on non-Apple hardware there are usually at least a few posts pointing out that Apple is a hardware company which just uses software as a means to further hardware sales. It's not as though Apple does not want people getting a taste of a non-Apple OS (as Microsoft would abhor); Apple has pointed out in its mac vs PC commercials that their hardware will also run Windows. I cannot see them going out of their way to see machines without their OS, but I fail to find sufficient reason for them to fight it if The Man said they had to.
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
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i don't know if i agree with ur thots. i think programmers might be bigger pussies than the french. especially microsoft programmers. i say this as a programmer - who does not work for microsoft.
Jokes are just that.
In Texas, we make all kinds of jokes about "Aggies" implying they are exceptionally stupid.
And then there are blond and dead baby jokes.
Your average french citizen is similar to people from other cultures.
I'm sure the french soldiers on the Magenot [sp] line would have fought very hard to defend france but they got driven around. The folks behind the line were not ready to fight germans with tanks with virtually no warning. To have something like the impact of a blitzkrieg war today, imagine that an enemy country could teleport their entire army inside your country.
However, just like an "aggie" joke or a "blonde" joke or a "dead baby" joke wouldn't make any sense with some other subject, the "french surrender" jokes wouldn't be funny with someone else now. I laughed at the "French military rifles for sale, dropped once" joke myself.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
oh, and i apologize for the france bashing. it is unequivocally wrong. just being silly. i love the french. well, mostly the women.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Free beer is never free as in speech. Free speech is always free as in beer.
It's funny because I tried to think in just one stereotype for Americans and couldn't get one, It's a mix of almost everything made in the 20th century (I blame the media) It's not like "the first word that comes to your mind". It can be anything from a fat, lazy and illiterate rotten.com troll.. to a Noam Chomsky kind of mind (Yes I know he's Jewish)
.. just my 0.2c
And yes if you take everything to the lowest common the answer will be a bully child It's fat/big, messes with everything in his reach and everyone know how it ends in adulthood. BTW
The French are nice, they have several revolutions on their account (French Revolution, May '68 etc.)They women are just neat, good food, good movies. France should deserve better in the "the first word that comes to your mind" thing as is the case of Americans
Actually, The Netherlands only surrendered because the Germans flattened Rotterdam (an unprotected city) by bombarding it unannounced. After that they threatened to do the same to other cities in the country.
The other countries that you mention as having surrendered didn't get the same treatment.
I can still remember that some years ago the slashdot crowd cheered at the people who have tried to get a refund for OEM Windows preinstalled on their computers.
Either the people here are different now or it is french bashing time. Maybe both.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
americans are loud mouths, who have no idea about anything outside their own country.
And like all teenagers they think they can fix all the worlds problems, almost cute
preview button, my computer does't have any preview button
PS: not polite to reply to my own post: another thing is that The Netherlands was neutral in the first world war, and also claimed neutrality here. Even though France and Belgium had already declared war to Germany in 1939.
So when Belgium and France surrendered, they surrendered to a country they themselves were at war with. But when Germany invaded the Netherlands they attacked a country that had invested little in the military since the turn of the century and that explicitly chosen to stay neutral in the conflict.
Ehi! I want one about italians too... otherwise i would start thinking that /. is biased.
Actually it was the Dutch military that surrendered - the government relocated to London
France didn't get taken over in the first world war. The French army moved reserves to the front line when it appeared Paris may fall (even using taxis) and stopped the aggressor German imperial army, and then the next four years was spent without the front moving much.
I'm an Australian and I haven't heard that joke before. Perhaps more indicative is the fact that in two world wars French freedom stood for something that Australians were willing to die for. The French had no useful allies in the second world war in their time of need: the Americans didn't care and the British hardly had an army, let alone an army on the Continent. The disaster that befell France happened due to inaction of the democracies from 1935 onwards; the French army in 1940 can't take much of the blame, the situation was completely hopeless by then.
You knew what the EULA was
No you don't. The EULA is INSIDE the package, genius.
What if I didn't like the operating system in my car ?
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
So can I buy an Apple computer without Mac OS installed in France? Or, can I have Apple remove it at no charge to me?
And the Soviets did a lot to make sure the second world war started too: Germany attacked Western Europe safe that the Russians were not going to attack them thanks to most cynical and disgusting treaty ever signed in human history, the Nazi/Soviet non-aggression pact of 1938 (or "partition of Poland pact"). The invasion of Russia by the Germans after they had dispensed with Western Europe, well, let's just say that the Russians discovered a different world view quickly.
Besides, how the hell are we supposed to produce Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Maseratis? By playing a righteous and possibly loosing game? The world isn't waiting for "Italian character" or needing it for that matter. It just wants the insane and magnificent works of art. And yes, I count the cars produced by aforementioned companies as works of art.
"But how 'bout the shitty cars we produce?", you may ask. Well these generate the capital to be able to create artworks. Having said that, currently Fiat isn't doing badly. Also, Alfa seems to have closed the horrifying period that started in the 80ies and went well on into the late 90ies. Now if they start making lighter, rear wheel driven cars and a bit more stuff lke the 8C they will truly excel. Again.
Art is the ultimate expression of civilisation. When everything alse is achieved, that's what you will consider next.
In short, our apologies for being crap at fighting righteous wars. However, we do compensate.
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
(US Marine, College Student, and Proud Parent!)
US Marine > I suspect you must be an authoritarians, hence your tendency to side with authority (in this case, Microsoft), no matter how wrong, against the little guy, no matter how right.
That's the same mindset that make some people blame the victim in case of rape (look at what she was wearing!), prisoner abuse (if he was in prison he probably deserved it!), war crimes, and so on.
It's not your fault, just follow the link in my sig and educate yourself.
2) English are pompous
I believe you mean imperious, you colonial peon.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
A heck of a lot of us live in countries where the native language isn't English. I'm English from the UK, but living 20 years over here in Greece (Europe).
Most of the laptop vendors ship *only* the local native language version of (mostly) Windows Vista. If you're really lucky then you might see the English version. I spend a lot of time "cleaning" bloody Greek Vista *off* new Acers, HP notebooks and replacing it with English XP. You see - here in Athens (Greece if you forgot) we have lots and lots of people from all over the world (who don't want a Greek system but got stuck with it when they bought their nice new shiny whatever).
I have the pleasure of babysitting a friends internet cafe (on sundays it's more like Manilla than Athens because that's the day the girls from the Phillipines get their day off - eat yer heart out basement dwellers (grins)).
Some of this nonsense wouldn't be needed if Vista shipped MUI out of the tin . (Curiously though the MUI version of XP seems to be the norm amongst my friends from the arab world).
If a machine ships with what is essentially a "useless" system, then you should be able to refuse the EULA and get a refund. What i'd really like to see is some EU wide ruling as to the *size* of that refund so that consumers would be aware of their rights . Fitness for use etc. is an issue.
Andy.
I can't believe one second that you're German. As a French living in Arras, town that was on the frontline of both wars, I can tell you that you're disgusting me..
One of the few things I know of my grand-grand-father is that he had drank his pee while defending his country from (probably) your grand grand father? This war was terrible. Millions died, not least by the incompetency of the generals, and on both sides soldiers did their duty to the end in the most horrific conditions. No one could live the battlefront with any sanity left. Don't talk me about being taken over, because we didn't fail despite contrary odds, and thanks to the US and English and Canadian and Australian help.
When came the second world war, with the generals having made more or less the same errors as before ww1, I can understand that people only wanted to avoid a second tranch war. Actually, given that my small town of birth (Saint Laurent Blangy) was flattened (higher wall left after the war in the whole town: 1 meter) during ww1, my grand mother told me many times how women and children alike thrown themselves on the roads as soon as they knew ww2 was coming. This was an exodus to the south.
http://images.google.com/images?q=arras%20ruines%20guerre&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enFR258FR258&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
ps: let's hope you don't keep other funny ideas in your "German psyche / German blood".
pps: yeah for Europe.
And it's OK if they want to make you buy two things when you only want one? It's OK for them to FORCE you to buy the bundle but not right for you to FORCE them to split the bundle?
Please remember that there is an EULA. You get 28 days to agree to a contract or refuse it. EULA is a contract because you need to obey a restriction in your rights. And if you refuse, why should YOU pay anything? So ASUS would have to pay to get the computer back. Not you.
Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians and so one don't react in the same way.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Your signature is particularly fitting for that comment :D
I quote from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_world_war
So, how did Italy switch sides in the First World War?
Concerning WW2, Italy surrendered to the Allies in 1943, when they occupied the southern half of its territory. Mussolini was put under arrest and then freed by the German army. He's been moved to the north, an area occupied by the German army, where he lead a puppet government. He was opposed by several armed factions and a civil war enraged there for the next two years, while the Germans and the Allies where battling in the middle of the country.
If you are a real market liberal then you would also oppose copyright as government interference in the market. If you are going to hand someone a monopoly on something then you have every right to regulate transactions involving that monopoly however society deems best.
Now either you are one of those evil socialists yourself (it just so happens that you support corporate rather than social welfare) or a real market liberal. Which is it?
Here are the highlights from the judgement.
Keep in mind that currently, 1 Euro is around
1.50 Dollars.
1 The buyer requested the vendor to run the init
routine and refuse the EULA. He left the shop with
a blank hard disk.
2 The EULA did offer refund to the non agreeing customer.
3 It was quite clear that ASUS' offer of 25 Euros plus at least a week turn-around plus courier to be paid by the customer would defeat most customers.
4 The plaintiff got 100 Euros for Windows, 30 Euros for crapware, 150 Euros for handling/shipping. He did not get the punitive 1000 Euros he wanted.
5 All costs for the case are on ASUS.
Last but not least: this is not the first French
judgement I read which is set up as a single sentence. You would not believe the wooden crap language they use.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsautomotive/wa5.mspx ... the day I stopped buying cars from BMW.
Screw the FSM - Real geeks believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn
They also managed to spirit all the Norwegian Jews to Sweden.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Sweden was the one that actually surrendered without even putting up a fight. They were completely gutless.
There is nothing wrong with surrendering when you are hopelessly outnumbered (or picked a wrong strategy, as in the Frenchies case - Maginot Line), or not going to a fight for stupid reasons that you can't win(iraq).
Yes, you are correct. But Japanese is very hard. And when, on top of that, you have to do a full-time job, you just don't have the time or the energy to devote yourself without sacrificing most of your time. And if you aren't planning on staying there forever, you have even less of a reason. Not all people enjoy studying languages.
It's a little different. Apple could argue they give you their Apple OS free with their Apple computer. ASUS are forcing you to buy Microsoft's OS. The post by Kryptonian above hits the nail on the head. ASUS have as little right to force you to buy Microsoft's OS with their PC as they do Adobe's Photoshop or any other product from any other company.
That's blatantly wrong. A lot of Norwegian jews were shipped to concentration camps.
And just to show that it's not just a theoretical concern: IIRC that's exactly what MS did at some point in the past. It negotiated a license with the OEMs where they paid the MS tax per computer sold, whether or not it actually had Windows on it.
The way it goes is sorta like this: let's say I make Product X that's shipped on 90% of your computers anyway. Then I come and offer you a, say, 20% discount if you pay it for all computers shipped, instead of actually counting licenses. Now there are basically two ways to think about it,
A) "well, hmm, that's not too bad. I'll keep offering the choice and at those numbers I still get a neat discount as a whole."
B) "wth, if I stop offering a choice, or severely discourage people from getting anything other than Product X, I'll get to make the most money out of that deal."
Chances are that even _if_ you started with version A, sooner or later B will dawn upon you. Historically it didn't take long for virtually all OEMs to be in camp B.
There are many variants of that scam. Another is to just flat out offer a bigger discount, the higher a percentage of your computers are shipped with product X. Or threaten to pull your discount altogether, if you try to push alternatives to my product X. Etc.
That's again not hypothetical, that's the threat MS used against IBM's OS/2: If you keep trying to push OS/2, you'll pay more for Windows, and lose the competitive edge on the computers you ship with Windows. IBM pretty much surrendered. Oh, they continued a half-arsed OS/2 effort to save face, but didn't even try to sell computers with OS/2 preinstalled any more.
Now you do need to have a certain market share to pull a stunt like that. But it's been done before, and not only by MS, so the concern is very real and pragmatic.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I think Ferraris are commonly considered overcompensation...
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
The so-called "French=coward" joke are a bit older than the war in Irak.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
They might have been "gutless" but they didn't surrender. And while certain elements were certainly nazi-friendly (notably the king), a lot of Swedes were actively helping the Norwegian resistance in bringing people who needed to escape over the border. A lot of Norwegian resistance fighters who got close to being captured can thank them for getting a safe haven when the nazis started closing in on them in Norway.
Amen!
you're confising them with the Danes methinks.
In France, people could then attack Apple in law and get a refund of Mac OS X, but as you said, most of the people who are buying mac computers do it for the OS itself :)
You're thinking of Denmark.
Actually Apple produces and sells the OS AND the computer, they bundle their own program in their macs.
Asus instead sells a third party operating system
Not it is not.
Spoken japanese is a piece of cake.
No new sound to learn, no intonation to give (unlike english or chinese have), simple grammar.
There is no excuse if you don't get more proficient in it while living there.
Written japanese is hard.
Each kanji has 2-3 different pronounciations, depending if found alone or in combination with other Kanjis.
Now, this is what takes efforts and time to learn.
Americans (I am one) had no problem with the French I think until it came time to drop bombs on Lybia. The French denied fly-over rights. Now we are in a war with Iraq and the French haven't sent troops. I think both decisions by France were wise and justifiable. Now Americans blame the French for a big costly war when instead they should blame themselves for their own gullibility. Americans have a "with us or for terrorism" ideology, which is a silly ideology. You'll see some idiots quote stats about the the percentage of the French population that is Muslim and other pseuodo-intellectual arguments. Personally, I think Americans should get a grip on reality, grow some brains, get the hell out of Iraq, stop pissing every one off, and stop blaming every one else for their problems. I'm an American and I've done it.
That said, I personally have a problem with France because of mimes. Mimes suck and France should never had invented them.
Just callin' it like I see it.
Needed to be said. As a Briton I've more fondness for France than America (an unusually position as most people here loathe them both with equal measure) and am getting tired of these French=Cowards jokes. In many ways their country is better than ours, and this should be a source of embarrassment for us because they have a similar sized economy and population. I guess that is why it is deemed necessary for the media to lay on the French-hate so thick, in case British people start to say "Hey, why can't we have fast trains that turn up on time?" and such stuff.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
It is not the same analogy both the PC _and_ the OS are made by Apple.
It is perfectly fine as it is a wrapped product by ONE supplier.
>But since you brought up Apple, what if someone for whatever reason wanted to by an Apple computer, but didn't want OSX?
The computer and OSX are both made by Apple. It would be legal.
However, Microsoft is a third-party to ASUS, and it would be illegal if ASUS forced you to agree to use Windows.
Fix
It
Again
Tomorrow
"Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy
And with what were the Soviets supposed to fight Germany? Bread crumbs? They were really struggling, and the casualties on the Soviet side would have been a lot bigger if not for this treaty. Hitler was always out to take Eastern Europe, so the treaty was about getting the German attack on the Soviet Union postponed. I would have done the same if it was my decision.
BTW: Hitler previewed German war tech in Spain before WW2. Where was any contry but the Soviet Union when the democratically elected Spanish government was in need of military help?
The non-aggression pact may have been cynical but it was a necessary breathing space for the Russians to enter the arms race of the day
"Linux is for noobs"-The new MS fud strategy
I'm sure this lad wish he was living in France. He could probably get a refund for the preinstalled OS in his Prius: http://www.kusnetz.net/prius/
1) Africans are world leaders at email scams
2) English don't speak English, but some weird cockney dialect
3) Germans and Irish drink a lot
4) Russians drink even more
5) South Americans smuggle _awesome_ drugs
6) Australians say "G'day mate" and eat witchetty grubs
7) Japanese have odd sexual hangups
8) Indians have a monopoly on call centers
9) Chinese all like government control of the interwebs (since the government shot the 15% who didn't)
and on and on. Every country has stupid stereotypes, I'm sure some countries see American's as all cowboys or some other equally ridiculous thing... There fix it for ya
http://www.zombieapocalypse.tv/
Even discounting the Revolutionary War, you have the War of 1812 and Pearl Harbor.
Not that it takes much away from your point as a whole, mind.
That's fully cos it's true (mostly). Good work.
"In many ways their country is better than ours, and this should be a source of embarrassment for us because they have a similar sized economy and population."
;)
But not similar resources. We no longer have an empire; France far outweighs us in terms of most things physical (I'm talking about the land, not the way its inhabitants are endowed
And with the size of their territory they have far more need of fast trains.
None of that is intended as criticism; just reasons we shouldn't be embarrassed.
Having said that, France is a great country but it is not without its downside. I speak with the advantage of having lived there 20 years and recently returned to the UK.
Some things are better here, some things are better there. Shame we can't have all the good bits in one place. *shrug*
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
That's funny cos it's true (mostly). Good work.
Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
Had "no army" because he purged almost the entire officer corp.
Simple, you usually don't see the details of the licence agreement until after you have purchased the product. Until you agree to the Windows EULA you have not completed the transaction, and thus if you do not accept the terms of the license you are owed your money back - at least the part of the purchase price that was paid for the software. The bit that says you can return the software for a refund highlights that the software is supplied separate from the PC really. If it was 'all in one' then you would indeed return the whole thing and get all your money back - PC manufacturers would probably never allow that.
PC manufacturers could, in theory, avoid this by making you agree to the Windows EULA before they take your money, but they don't want to do that. I imagine Apple do exactly that, since it's all from the same vendor (but I'm only guessing, I've never purchased a mac)
I am guessing that France got that label because it's the largest and both economically and militarily the most significant by a very large margin - both now and back then. I'd like to remind that France has a rather significant arsenal of nuclear weapons (for example). And between the two wars it was one of the very few world powers, one that Germany should have had some problems overcoming.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Umm. Sweden was not occupied during the second world war. Please have a clue what you're talking about before insulting people like that.
At least as for why SOME Americans would find this stupid....
"it is up to THEM which laws they have in THEIR OWN country"
(emphasis mine)
And keep in mind we're talking about France here. I bet that the law wasn't even written in English!
Those arrogant bastards!
But Apple is the same company for the Mac as for the OSX, so it's not the same.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Actually in France Apple gives you a refund of OSX if you ask within 7days after having bought the computer. Some people like to waste their money and buy a Mac to run GNU/Linux.
Well, you cannot blame the rest of the world: you ACTUALLY choose a cowboy as president.
Yeah true. It's cool that the Danish king said he would wear a yellow star if the Nazis made the Jews wear one too.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
"Mimes suck and France should never had invented them."
France didn't invent mime: that "honour" goes to the ancient Greeks. And much of what we currently call "French Mime" was actually the fault of Italians, who introduced it to France in 1576.
Note that the accordion isn't a French invention either (Austria and Germany were responsible for that one), so neither of the notable crimes against humanity that they're frequently accused of are actually French.
I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
In Norway, for example, it was illegal for Norwegians to go to Spain to fight. The communist and socialist movements sent in excess of 200 volunteers to the international brigades. Interestingly, the largest number of volunteers fighting against Franco came from Germany and Italy - mostly exiles that in many cases had left their homes because of oppression in their home countries.
This is generally called "The Microsoft Tax", because people who buy computers in order to run other Operating Systems (yes there are others) are forced to pay this tax.
Never mind that - some people will have bought a (retail) copy of Windows separately and will be retiring the old PC (perhaps it's broken beyond cost-effective repair). They are within their rights to install their copy of Windows on whatever they buy, as long as the old install is no longer used. I for one would not be happy paying for the OS twice.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Here's an idea. Build your own PC! Yes, that's right, build your own. The fact of the matter is these vendors are offering what a vast majority of their customers want. Just because you want to be the "rebel" and "bitch" about Microsoft. You'd probably end up installing a pirated copy of Windows on there as a dual boot or a VM anyway. You may as well just take the $30-$40 Windows license and be done with it.
> There was an Australian (I think) commander who said something along the lines of "I'd rather have 3 German Divisions in front of me than 1 French Division behind me".
Well, the alternative version is: when the Germans fire, the British duck, when the British fire, the Germans duck and when the Americans fire everyone ducks...
Just a note from a Yank who was rather embarrassed about some of the post-9/11 over-reactions: I'm actually pleased to see that this post has failed to garner the reactionary comments and faux-death threats that I would have expected even a couple years ago.
where's my dear suddenoutbreakofcommonsense ??
It's a fact. Go cope.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
You should try spending some time on our highways . . . we also think this about each other.
Car makers make and sell their own motors. There is no market for putting another car maker's motor in another's car.
OTOH while car makers have their own insurance sales company and credit company, there is a competing market for those services, and they can't force you to buy those when you buy one of their car. They may have a discount when you do, but in any case car+service can't be less expensive than car alone, that would be anticompetitive and would be a tie-in.
Windows has an EULA that gives you the option of either accepting or refusing, with a refund mentioned.
Hard drives don't ask for your soul or first born, last time I checked.
The GPL is not an EULA. You only need agree to it if you ever redistribute GPL software; personal use & copying is granted explictly, unconditionally, and free of charge.
Windows wants you to agree to an EULA. Said EULA says that if you refuse you can get a refund.
We want the damn refund.
That is all.
I'm actually a Windows fan, and I don't like Linux at all, but I think this French law should be an example for every other country. Bundling software leads to anticompetitive behaviour and forces us all to pay more for software. In addition we end up with all the crapware bundled by manufacturers. I would love to be able to buy bare but brand name computer without anything preinstalled and have my own choice of what OS and what applications I want to install. It would also open up opportunity for the businesses that sell computers to offer preinstalled, customized software opackages or services of preinstalling software a la carte when customers buys new computer at their store. Competition is always good for the consumer. JacekM
Some of us Yanks know we've had it good, and that others have had a lot to do with it... we're not all bratty teenagers who think we know it all :)
Hate our politicians (well the ones in charge now anyway) but don't hate us!
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I read somewhere that in France, Apple honored MacOSX refund requests, as long as they are filed within a few days of the purchase.
What we (April, Aful and other French associations) are trying to do here is have vendors honor their own damn EULAs. If it says you get a refund when you don't agree, you get a real refund, not a bogus offer.
I don't see why it's so hard to understand for so many people around here.
A company called Lenke Computer in Ohio will sell a computer without an OS.
You can have all that and more.
Come to America, the land of opportunity.
The United States didn't save France at all in WWI, in world war II yes they really helped but in the first world war they came in late and did very little.
I'm not in the habit of feeding trolls, but here goes.
The French Resistance, while valiant, did little to actually bring an end to the war. It only really helped foreign GIs return to their appropriate armies.
And of course there is the French Revolution. The only war that France won, which isn't saying much since it was a war against itself.
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
You act is if America(ns) have never fought battles, endured hardships, and suffered sacrifices.
I don't think it makes you much better of a person than the people who are "French Bashing," when you suggest so much animosity towards America.
Holy shit, dude!! You have just taken the cake for the dumbest comment ever made on this site. I seriously would love to be able to point out every asinine aspect of your post, but I don't have four hours to do so.
So, let me just point out a few things:
1) If you can't see the difference in putting $0.50 worth of Monterey Jack cheese on a ham sandwich and forcing someone to buy a $130 preinstalled operating system with their new computer, than maybe you shouldn't be here.
2) Re-train the ASUS staff?!?!? If I had a problem with Windows, why would I call ASUS?!?!? If it is a Windows problem, I would be calling the Microsoft help desk in India. If it is a hardware problem, I would be calling ASUS.
3) Further evidence of why you shouldn't be here: You want to buy a Mac so you could install Windows on it!!!!!
I can't believe you got an insightful mod for your post. Go away, you fucking idiot.
cell phone contracts are not that same as a license and If you see a $1 iphone you are likely looking at 2 year plan with it.
Realistically, it was once, and it wasn't from the Germans, it was from the Communists who would certainly have taken over France when the Russians had defeated the Germans and had the western Allies not invaded Western Europe. Russia was always going to beat Germany no matter what the Americans or British did, so really the latter saved Western Europe from Soviet domination. Pity they were too late for Eastern Europe.
Interstitial spaces are filled with cream.
A minor point. You can argue all you want the technicalities, but surely you can't believe that it was ok for Swedens to just sit idly buy, profiting from selling goods to the Nazis, while they were murdering their own citizens and attacking other countries.
The fact is that they surrendered before they even started fighting. Being neutral is worse, in this situation.
You ought to be free to sell to willing buyers. The French government has no right telling ASUS what it can or cannot sell.
\u262D = \u5350
I'm aware of at least some of the downsides of France, but I still think on balance I would like to work there (especially seeing as I want a career in the space industry; the pinacle of our rocket technology is the Skylark, the pinacle of theirs is Ariane 5 - its a no brainer really). But you are of course right on the money. We could have the best of each country in both if we had a healthier relationship other than spitting 'Frog!' and 'Rosbeef!' across the channel at each other puncutated by the occasional minor trade war. IMHO the most important advantage France has is its mature nuclear industry. Their comparative energy independence is looking more attractive by the day, and if the UK is going to catch up we probably need their help.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
in the first world war they came in late and did very little.
Except for making the Kaiser throw in the towel. It's not like he had any reinforcements available.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It's actually very similar. Go and try to find a new car in the US market without power windows and without AC. You can probably get some model somewhere if you look hard enough but you'll be very restricted in what you can buy.
What a bullshit argument. You will find that attitude in every country.
America has always been the great melting pot. For the past couple of centuries, we've taken your tired, your poor and your huddled masses, yet noboby that comes over here is interested in learning to speak fluent English anymore. That is easily evidenced when you stop an any gas station or quickie food mart. Yeah, go ahead and mod me a troll for having the guts to actually say it. (All I wanna do is buy a fuckin' gallon of gas, Hadji. If you're gonna own a gas station in the US, wouldn't it be a good fuckin' idea to be able to communicate with your customers, so you can understand what the fuck they want?)
We are being over-run with immigrants who refuse to learn the English language. They are too proud of the countries they came from and are afraid they will have to give up their heritage. If kind of makes me wonder, if they had it so good where they came from, why they hell they would want to come here. It has gotten to the point that, in some schools around here, the students are required to learn to speak Spanish, in an attempt to break the communication barrier. Well, don't you think there's something rotten in Denmark? Isn't the universal business language English?
So, don't hand me this bullshit that "native English speakers" are ignorant, when I'm sure you're making a direct reference to Americans, in particular.
Or, did you naively think that Americans should be held to a different standard?
"Not sure about France, but when I bought my car..."
Yup, so you bought the car NOT in France and this is about something being sold under French law. As in not the law you bought the car under.
That is the difference.
I think the judge is a fool, especially considering the size of the "compensation" (realistically, an OEM install of windows only costs the consumer something like $50). But before you mod me flamebait, hear me out!
I've already heard the argument that "PC's without Windows installed aren't common" so the consumer has no choice but to buy one with windows. Let's pretend that "build your own" isn't an option. My question is, why is Windows special in this regard? Have you ever tried to buy a computer without a CD drive? How about one without a power supply? If Dell refuses to sell me a computer without those two items, should I have the right to sue them for a partial refund? Where do you draw the line?
If that isn't enough of a right, DON'T SELL.
Now, don't get me started on the absolute imbecility of Italian generals, but just to set the record straight, we did not switch sides in WWI: before the war we had a defensive agreement with Austria and Germany that had no reason to be obliged to, since Austria had started the war invading Serbia. In WWII we did not surrender, we defected (we kept fighting on the side of the Allies). And lots of our people did fight the good fight, with half of our country liberating itself with no support from Allied armies.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
And even when countries did switch sides, that said little about the bravery of their soldiers. Look at Finland, which was forced to sign an unfavorable armistice and later to fight with the Soviet Union, despite the amazing fight they put up.
they get history taught in college there.
Americans are taught History in college as well. In addition, the open American economy, free of censorship, (unlike Germany) gives us an excellent view of all sides of the war.
France was not "taken over" in both world war, only 1. The "great war" the trench/battle limit went back and forth north of France, but nobody took over France.
A good portion of France was actually taken over during World War I. Likely, if it had not been for the timely assistance of their British allies, Paris would not have survived the initial German advances of 1914, just as Paris did not escape the disaster of the previous Franco-Prussian war.
For the second war, what did you expect them ? To die like a single man ? Are you for real ? Are you for real ? You are aware that "die in honor" is an outdated previous century concept, and all modern commander would accept surrendering ?
The British were prepared to do exactly that, and if you had had some history yourself, you might have noticed the Russians did -exactly- that.
There was no cowardiness shown by france during WW2,
So why did they hang Petain then? See, that's the thing, is that DeGaulle did NOT want to surrender despite the initial German successes. At the time of the surrender, the French actually had suffered one huge disaster with an army in Belgium and was well on the way to losing Paris, but, a number of other French units were certainly available and a line of battle could have been drawn around perhaps Southern France.
I invite you to read, though, Lord Alan Brooke's accounts of the war. He describes in vivid detail the state of the French army prior to World War II and during its opening stages (the so-called "Phoney War"). He describes French morale as low, the soldiers didn't even shave, didn't keep their weapons properly cleaned, didn't have any sort of cohesive unit discipline and when they showed up on the battlefield, except for those units under DeGaulle and one or two French commanders, they quickly broke ranks and booked.
. Jeez and I bet you will be one of the first to complain that french give you the finger.
The French have been giving the USA the finger for 200 years ever since we stiffed them after they bailed us out in our Revolutionary War, and they will probably be giving us the finger for another 200 years. But as long as they keep the Chardonnay and pastries coming we will always love the French. If the French were actually nice, well, it would be the end of the world, I'm sure.
This is my sig.
Indeed. Perhaps there should be a meme according to which the Jews are ridiculed for surrendering and letting themselves be herded off to camps, instead of nobly fighting to the death on their doorsteps as they ought to have? No, I didn't think so.
Actually, the Jews didn't surrender as much as they were lied to. In the one case where the Jews were aware of their fate, they actually did fight and die almost to a man before being herded off to concentration camps. Do read about the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, before you make that claim! Indeed, I think the Warsaw ghetto withstood the Nazi assault all by itself for longer than Paris.
The real reason we hear Americans (and only Americans) making these bigoted comments is because Jacques Chirac used the UN veto against an attack on Iraq, thus making the subsequent invasion a war crime under the Nuremberg Principles.
The UN didn't veto anything and the Nuremberg principals were about waging a war for the purposes of a genocide.
The fact that Chirac has now been proven quite right, with WMDs and suchlike now known to be a pack of lies, does not seem to embarrass the bigots at all.
Saddam Hussein admitted that he would have reconstituted his arms programs as soon as the sanctions were lifting. So, even though he may not have had no WMD, he had them before, and would have gotten them again.
This is my sig.
Otherwise, I might as well state that all Americans are pro-war, and that they all wanted Afghanistan and Iraq to be bombarded.
Americans were pro-war in the immediate days after 9/11. Some polls taken just after the attacked suggested that the American people would have supported the use of nuclear weapons against the entire middle east by a margin of nearly 2-1. Viewed in that context, Bush's invasions of Aghanistan and Iraq were restrained compared to what the country was willing to support. Indeed, Democrats took a beating in the 2002 elections largely because of their perceived pacifist stance, and it was this beating that lead them to give Bush a legal blank check on Iraq.
Of course, now that the war is approaching a trillion dollars and 4500 lives in cost, Americans are not against it. But, had Bush immediately brought home the troops from Iraq and left them to flounder in self ruin, he would have been hailed as a conquering hero. Indeed, the popular undercurrent of anti-war support among the Democrats is that the Iraqi people are not worth helping because they are arabs, therefor, we should withdraw and let them kill each other, as it still works out pretty good for us.
This is my sig.
You would still be British if it wasn't for the French :p
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
What's funny to me is that, in the U.S., this is also considered a right by law. In fact, the most basic assumption of our law is that you have all rights unless they're explicitly forbidden to you. So I do have the right to buy a computer not bundled with Windows XP. And I have the right to buy a computer drizzled in chocolate syrup (should anyone decide to sell one). And I have the right to buy any number of plants (except those expressly forbidden by law). If I buy something, and determine that what I purchased wasn't what I really paid for, I have the right to demand a refund. And the company has a right to refuse. Then I have the right to take them to court. If our court system works for me, then I get the same result found here.
A lot of U.S. citizens don't seem to understand the basic concept of how our law is supposed to work.
100 years war?
How dare you be so modest!! You conceited bastard!!
You do realize of course that if it were not for France the United States would exist and most likely you would be part of Canada.
Hey, the French chopped off the head of the guy that saved the USA. What more do you need?
This is my sig.
If you learnt history, you would also see that nobody in the US moved until they got attacked. That is why the US have no real allies and most of the countries consider the US untrustworthy. Just look at the Iraq mess, nice coalition ...
Don't you know it is now both immoral and criminal to think beyond the next quarterly report?
So the French really screwed them royally!
Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
This could set a dangerous precedent. Buy a laptop knowingly with XP, get a refund for the XP and uninstall. Then install whatever XP the bay is serving up this week for free. AC
Americans may be laughing at the French, but what many of them fail to realize is that the rest of the world is laughing at them; many of us are just too polite to say anything.
I have triple citizenship (Canada, US, Holland), but identify primarily as Canadian, having spent the vast majority of my life in Canada. In light of this, I get the brilliant combination of feeling irritated at the endless Canadian jokes on slashdot (due to completely unjustified South Park references with no basis in reality) and the shame of seeing how my fellow Americans act towards other cultures.
Yeah, you might think your unjustified jabs at other countries are funny, and perhaps they were the first few times, but now they're getting very, very old.
Makes as much sense.
After all, if ASUS didn't want to honour a refund on the OS, maybe they should have bought an OS that doesnt give that option.
And, since the EULA is a post-sale contract, you get 28 days to refuse and ASUS can collect their own frigging computer at their expense.
As we are splitting hairs here: Actually only the Dutch military in the continental Netherlands surrendered. Not only was the government relocated to London, the navy and military units in the colonies (notably the Netherlands East Indies) did not surrender to the Germans.
The Dutch stopped playing a notable military role in the spring of 1942 when their navy was nearly annihilated in the Battle of the Java Sea by the Japanese and the Netherlands East Indies was occupied.
After that, the Dutch contribution to the Allied war effort only consisted of Surinamian bauxite for the US aircraft industry and the oil refineries in the Netherlands Antilles. Besides that they made a small token contribution in the form of the Princess Irene Brigade in the liberation of Western Europe.
As an American, I hate to say that alot of that is true for at least the people in government here. Unfortunately, a lot of the citizens are more like sheep and would rather have someone tell them what to think while the few that decide to think for themselves are called conspiracy theorists or unpatriotic at best. At worst, GITMO for you! While I realize that losing 3000+ people in a building collapse or two is actually not that bad, especially considering how many floors each building had and that just about every other country has seen far worse. I also realize that if the government would leave other governments to run their own country's we likely wouldn't have had this come up.
In short, it's a taste of our own medicine and the government found a new way to scare people into submission and giving up the fundamental rights that are supposed to be guaranteed to ALL people in this country not just citizens, whites or blacks or hispanics, or men or women etc....
Contrary to the Supreme Courts ruling, if you're in an international airport (on US Soil) going through customs you are IN THE COUNTRY thus your rights should be preserved....
Not really. Once I could grant you, but the second time around all serious historians would agree it was the Eastern front which overall defeated the Germans.
Sure.... depending on who you play in a game of Age of Empires....
Most Americans don't even know where those countries are, especially the Americans who find these jokes funny. France is the one with the Eiffel tower. You see it in movies, hence they can relate and hence it can be funny.
...not to mention the Italians which switched sides in both world wars to avoid being the losing side.Italy is where pizza comes from, right? Seriously, there were jokes about Italy being a country of cowards for many, many years, but in recent years France is more prominent in the world stage and more critical of and opposed to the US, so it makes for a better target (and is more useful for politicians to criticize).
Wrong. Studies have shown social mobility is lower in the US than in most western European countries. Creating massive barriers to the poor leading healthy and well educated lives kind of makes it hard for them to succeed in life....
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
Napoleon, according to many accounts, was something like 5'7", which was above average at the time. He was depicted as 4' even, or smaller, by the British propagandists, who wrote he was tiny and angry with the world for being so tiny... Some confusion may arrise from some French reports that he was about 5'2", but the French inch was longer than the Imperial inch at the time, and 5'2" in french inches worked out to 5'7" Imperial. The only dispute is that his autopsy indicated he was 5'2", and was conducted in British territory. Brits argue that therefore, he was 5'2" and ALL of the previous reports and accounts were false. Other historians note that while he was in British territory, the report was completed by his French physician, who probably measured him in French inches. Since that agrees with the dozens of other acounts putting him at or about 5'7", it seems the more reasonable explanation.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
It's not free, it's just non-discriminatory, and SOME but not all provinces provide it free of charge. In BC it isn't free, it costs $54 / month. You can get a discout, possibly all the way to $0, if you make under something like $20,000 a year.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Manufacturers install Windows by cloning hard disks. It requires no extra effort to install a blank HDD. Also, they don't need an OS to test the system. That can be done using a USB memory stick, a CD, or netboot.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
It's a leftover of initial reactions in the media of Britain and the US to the shocking defeat of France in just a few weeks in 1940.
A similar thing happened in the first few days American stwith the Netherlands. While the Dutch army was being ripped apart by the Germans, newspapers in the rest of the world were wildly speculating about fifth columns and the neutral Dutch's unwillingness to really put up a fight (in other words treason).
Even though everyone already knew that the Dutch would be no match for the Germans, public opinion was simply not prepared for a war in which a country could be overrun in a matter of days. Even a lackluster performance should have been able to hold off the enemy for "just a month" in people's minds (with WWI as a frame of reference) to give the French time to deploy.
After the Germans finished off the Dutch, just a few days later the French-Belgian-British defence also started collapsing, and the newspapers shifted their attention to perceived French cowardice and incompetent leadership (treason being a lesser explanation here, since the French weren't neutral).
Since the Germans didn't KO any more formidable powers than France after that, this analysis of events got stuck in people's minds.
The events of 1940 of course clearly show the superiority of Germany over their neighbours, but comparing US performance in later years to the losers of 1940 is really apples and oranges: in the spring of 1940 the US standing army was no larger and hardly better prepared than the mobilized Dutch or Belgian one, and in 1940 all of Europe had just started producing newly designed aircraft and tanks that would have given them the edge over the Germans given a year. It is just distance and a large body of water that makes the difference.
That said (going with Europe since Europe seems to be the chosen "enemy" in this little discussion), our country is darned near as big as the entire continent of Europe. Our individual states are the size of many countries there. International travel isn't going to be as common - we can travel all over and see all sorts of different cultures, ideals, and geographic features within our own country. As far as variations and ideas, and regional politics, your average American has a lot more to keep track of to follow only "their own country" compared to most citizens of European nations.
Trust me, for all the animosity you might think we harbor towards you guys, most Americans don't really care one way or another, and we pick on ourselves much more. Heck just watch and wait until a story about a Southern US state pops up. You'll see countless (just as stereotyped and unwarranted) jokes about incest or the IQ of people in that state.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
You buy a car with a pre-installed feature you didn't know or care about, On-Star as an example. You get the car home, then realize the feature is there. Is it fair to take the car back and demand that the dealer remove the button and all associated components, or should you just ignore it? Perhaps you should have brought the issue up before you left the store.
-James
Fix It Again Tony was what we used locally.
Anarchists never rule
You just call yourselves lucky? yeah lucky that we came in and saved your asses. geez...
Australian players don't even know what football is about.
Here's to the champion. (IANAI, but I'm South American, and know how to difference good football from soulless football)
I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland.
Of Code And Men
"we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.â
I guess in Iraq, its too high, huh?
This is my sig.
Check out also Battles_of_Narvik on Wikipedia. Combined British, French, Polish, and Norwegian forces won the first victory of WWII against the Wehrmacht there. We still honor every year those who fought with us and for us.
ah, well... there are also the sayings that italian tanks have 1 forward gear but 5 reverse gears and that austrian war flag is a white eagle on white ground...
are they equally true?
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html
but typically when a hardware vendor includes a licensed OS, the cost is a lower than the retail, no upgrade path. $200 for XP is the retail, non upgrade price in the US. Seems like the award/refund is too high.
And we're fat. Good lord we're fat! ;-)
Is this the end of the France bashing/WWI&II recap?! The MS bashing doesn't start until page 3? Unbelievable!
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
I don't know that I have anything solid to base this on, but I've always guessed that the real cost per copy that larger systems makers have to pass on to Microsoft is more in the $30 range.
That may be the cost to the manufacturer. But what's the cost to the consumer? How do you KNOW that's all the cost that the Microsoft software added to your computer?
As another poster (talking about HIS attempts to get a refund from a US manufacturer - at the stage where they said "OK, but it's only $30" or whatever) said (approximately): "Windows only costs $30? Good! I want a hundred licenses for starters. Tell me where to send the $3,000." Needless to say the manufacturer didn't go along with that.
In the absence of both information about the actual prices paid (a trade secret) and any other valuable considerations given to Microsoft by the manufacturer, a court has no reasonable basis to use to determine the price other than the retail price at which the item trades. And because the decision is AGAINST the manufacturer, it's not appropriate to let the losing defendant pick an arbitrarily lower figure with no publicly available evidence to support it.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
"You mean, like they did when they defeated the GERMAN Army and won the American War of Independence?"
There, fixed that for you....
"...the Americans didn't care..."
Actually, the Americans were strongly pro-Germany. This tends to be forgotten now, but the Americans saw Germany as a strong industrial state they could do business with, and one which was strongly anti-Communist.
American foreign policy has never been moral, then as now. And Americans are naturally fascist, with their belief that they are the chosen country, and that all problems can be solved by shooting your enemy. Furthermore, they hated Britain and encouraged the rise of Germany as a way to attack the British Empire.
All this had to be rapidly forgotten when Japan entered the war on the side of Germany and against America. But never mind. They just changed their attitude overnight. If there's one country which is superb at believing it's own propaganda, it's America. The US even has it's own history books with a different set of inventors and scientists from those of the rest of the world, to persuade Americans that they are the real world heros...
This is more typical BS for europe to squeeze more money out of American companies.. Microsoft should just tell the EU to F@#$ off and let them pay techs to load what ever OS they want on the hardware.. They'll complain about that too so there is no winner.. only ways to get money for nothing.. screw the EU!!!!!
ok, so my relatives and myself that enlisted in the military is a mirage then.. My great grandfather fought with the french and he was an American.. I guess that has been forgotten too.. mostly by the EU brats that don't remember shit. We bailed out Europe bigtime!!! screw the EU and their currency that is inflated to try and kill our economy.. The UN too, we pay 22% for thoes freeloaders.. What does the EU pay?? France??? huh jerks!!!!!
That's the most important point. PC OEM are not necessarily happy that said Convicted Monopolist has that much market power. That it can dictate they sell only its products. Making the overall product more expensive. It matters especially as Asus is really a "Linux Good Citizen", with Linux embedded into motherboard and mass-market Linux latops (eee). Now Asus can say: we tried everything we could to do as you dictated us to do, but you see, it's just the law. This is huge.
No I make the same observation about Australians, Canadians and Brits here in Japan. Most of my French or German friends have impressive Japanese proficiency. Most of them even read, some can even write Japanese.
I'm German so I can also talk about foreigners in Germany. Considering that German is far more complicated than English I still find it amazing that most of the foreigners can speak as much German as they do there. But this is also due to the fact, that Germans just expect people to speak the local language if they decide to live in this country for more than a few years.
From the many English native speakers in Japan I know there are only a handful who can actually read, write and speak Japanese at a level that would be acceptable for an adult. The rest seem to have learned the little Japanese they know at Roppongi or some Playground elsewhere.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Please. Hessians only made up about one quarter of British Army forces in North America during the Revolution.
That would be the eastern front which was kept alive by US war material supplies.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I welcome our anti-XP French overlords (with lasers on their soviet foreheads), especially those that aren't surrendering to Microsoft. Instead of MS looking at the world as just so many more countries that they can ship their garbage off to, they should be made to see that the ability to localize their product and sell it in other countries is not a right.
I am not sure which will come first, the day of Microsoft's karma, or the second coming of Christ. Either will probably do the job. "Gee Bill, What have you done for humanity to make up for that lousy software we cannot get working even here in Heaven?"
Regardless of which, the rest of the world would still appreciate it if the US would be so kind as to stay the fuck at home.
But, that's not really the important part of your paragraph. Lemme ask you something: If I said, "Americans just expect people to speak the local language if they decide to live in this country for more than a few years", I would be called an inconsiderate and snobby. Why? From the many English native speakers in Japan I know there are only a handful who can actually read, write and speak Japanese at a level that would be acceptable for an adult. The rest seem to have learned the little Japanese they know at Roppongi or some Playground elsewhere. I can't verify your claims, but as I have demonstrated, this is nothing indigenous to "native English speakers", so I'll have to call bullshit. I have a feeling you see only what you want to see.
Note: no offense meant to Beemers, Beemer owners, their affiliates or their lawyers. Send flames to /dev/nul/marshmallows-on-a-weiner-stick.
> So, how did Italy switch sides in the First World War?
Wikipedia was not complete. Italy WAS a member of the alliance that we call the Central Powers, but refused to honor their treaty obligations when the Russians started their mobilization against Austria-Hungary and Germany. They sat out the first few months, then joined in with the other side to get "their" slice of Austrian territories. As I recall, what little that they gained was mostly lost to Yugoslavia at the end of WWII.
What makes English somewhat complicated is the huge influence the Normans had (and the Latin/French vocabulary and spellings they brought in). So only when it comes to pronunciation and reading, English is harder than German, because there is no consistency whatsoever between the written letters and how you read them. The same vowel sequence might be pronounced totally differently in a different word (e.g. doubt, tough, brought - "ou" is pronounced differently for each word).
Now if you look at the rest, it's basically that English has lost most of the complicated grammar parts that most Germanic languages still have to carry around. Conjugation of verbs in English almost gone, in German conjugating verbs has them change vowels in the middle of the words. Same with plurals, there are so many ways of building plurals for nouns it's not funny anymore in German.
Then you have three genders for nouns (there's single rule to distinguish the genders of nouns, you just have to know them, actually) which then influences the article (der, die, das) which again will change dependent on the case of the noun (you don't have any of that in English anymore). Adjectives also follow the gender and the case of the noun and change accordingly...
Look at the number of irregular verbs. You might have about 4-5 pages of irregular verbs in an English dictionary, in a German one you'll have about 12-14 pages of them.
I could go on for hours, but you get the gist. English is a medium difficult language I'd say. It's definitely harder than spoken Japanese, at least at a basic level (when you get into politeness levels Japanese can get quite tricky).
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Of course, they do. Norway is, with Sweden, where (the {great}*grandparents of) everyone from the Dakotas, Wisconsin, or Minnesota came from. The Netherlands is where all the old New York families came from, and were our first ally in the Revolution and in WWII (a Dutch ship started shooting the Zeroes at Pearl Harbor before the US Navy had their guns cleared for action). Belgium is where the waffles come from, and Luxembourg is the extra credit answer that they missed in HS Geography.
The difference is that Norway hasn't made noises about their military prowess since the end of the Viking Age, The Netherlands since the time of William of William and Mary fame, and Belgium and Luxembourg have never made any claims about their "glorie" (or however the French spell it).
Actually, most pizza shops make it American-style, now, even in Italy. So, New Jersey is where pizza come from. :-)
Second City Television (a Saturday Night Live-like series from the comedy troupes where NBC got the original SNL players) had a fake war movie that followed the Italians as they planned and executed their masterstroke in WWII, surrendering in such vast numbers that the US invasion was completely halted, diverted into trying to deal with the millions of new POWs. No one but Bennie The Moose ever seriously claimed that Italians were great warriors, though.
> to a Noam Chomsky kind of mind (Yes I know he's Jewish)
So? There are more Jews within 50 miles of NYC than in all of Israel, and about as many in the rest of the country. Almost like the Irish and Boston. Your "Yes I know he's Jewish" is about like "Yes, I know he's left-handed" in terms of relevance (at least here). Almost completely orthogonal.
> The French are nice,
No, the stereotype is rude (although I am told that is the Parisians giving the rest a bad name).
> They women are just neat, good food, good movies.
Nice exchange student, in my senior year of high school, but never met many others. The food is designed to give you a heart attack from the sauces (almost as bad as German, that way). Crappy movies, but all the naked chicks makes it worth watching some until you get a girl friend, who then will naturally object.
> they'd also notice that France actually totally
:-) And not THAT short, either. Peasant short, not Mini-me short.
> kicked the Western World's ass lead by a tiny Corsican.
Don't tell the British.
Or the Haitians, for that matter.
Anyway, Napoleone Buonoparte was Italian.
You miss the point here.
Also in France, you have the right to anything that isn't otherwise prohibited.
But the law article we're talking about says more than that. It says that if you sell two tied products, you should also propose them separately. So this law is not about a simple theoretical "right", but about an obligation for the seller that guarantees an actual right for the consumer.
As a French who learnt German in school (and forgot most of it - I'm currently struggling to recover my former knowledge of it), I'd say it's a complex language, but it's very consistant. There may be many irregular verbs, but most of them can be grouped in a small number of categories that follow the same conjugasons - to the point it's questionable that they really can be called irregular at all. I've never had a really hard time with German grammar (more with assimilating the vocabulary), for it holds very few traps.
There's nothing like $HOME
It is one of the more consisten ones (but you'd be wondering whether Japanese isn't an artificial language, once you see how regular the grammar is there).
I just find you can use very simple sentences in English without sounding like a 3-year-old or an idiot.
Try to do that in German--won't work. Unless you are capable of building complex sentences with relative clauses, sub-sentences--that's where some things get hairy, like zusammengesetzte Verben (whatever that is in English)--appositions, attributes, indirect speech and more, unless you have a quite thorough command of the language, your German will always sound very alien to the native ear.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
LOL, now you're just getting desperate.
or (b) it is in self-defence to a current or imminent threat (with no time to seek a UN resolution). The invasion was therefore illegal. .
The invasion was not illegal because Saddam Hussein had abrogated the terms of his cease fire with the United Nations forces. Because he did not live up to his cease fire agreements, then, there was no obligation for the USA to not to continue the war. So, the invasion of 2003 was perfectly legal under international law because the resolution that authorized the original military action against Iraq in 1991 still remained in force owing to Saddam's cease fire violation.
Even Bush himself has stopped trying to claim this. He now admits there were no WMDs, and has shifted to blaming "bad intelligence".
You didn't speak to my point. My point was not that there were no WMD in Iraq in 2003, there were, not. It was that, with the sanctions lifted, it is very likely that Saddam would have resumed his weapons program. He even said so. If we do not get Saddam, then the sanctions get lifted, Saddam gets the bomb, and then nukes Iran and Saudi Arabia and makes himself master of the middle east. For Saddam, the whole sanctions and inspection regime process was an always a plan to get the UN off of his back so he could go back to his original plan.
This is my sig.