Slashdot Mirror
UK Prosecutors Say 'Cult' Acceptable
An anonymous reader notes that following our discussion this week about the 15-year-old who was under threat of prosecution for calling Scientology a cult in a recent demonstration, the UK Crown Prosecution Service has decided that there is no case to answer. They have issued new guidance to the City of London police clarifying when they can use their public order powers. Quoting: "A [CPS] spokesman said: 'In consultation with the City of London Police, we were asked whether the sign was abusive or insulting. Our advice is that it is not abusive or insulting and there is no offensiveness (as opposed to criticism), neither in the idea expressed nor in the mode of expression.' A spokeswoman for the City of London Police said: 'The CPS review of the case includes advice on what action or behavior at a demonstration might be considered to be "threatening, abusive or insulting." The force's policing of future demonstrations will reflect this advice.'"
...the Cult of Scientology is about to ask for its money back.
Every religion is a cult, just a popular one. Scientology isn't popular in any definition of the world and as such "cult" is very appropriate.
i would say amongst the slashdot community it certainly is, but in wider society, its a simple descriptor of a small religion. you may happily supply the negative connotations of calling something a cult, but as these judges wisely ruled, the negative connotations are not automatically implied
if the student held up a sign saying "bill gates is a geek", amongst the 13 year old male jock contingent, this is a horrible slander. but with the rise of the internet, its almost a compliment, especially as "geek" implies new wealth nowadays
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It shall be remembered that 20 years ago, the cult of $scientology was deemed a criminal organization in Ontario after it infiltrated the Ontario Ministry of Justice and proceed to trash their evidence file. The Supreme Court of Canada has also recently ruled so.
he should be thrown in jail.His description of scientology as a cult was sadly one letter out.
If you read the article, what the CPS said is that to be considered "abusive or insulting" under the law, it would have to be offensive (as seen from a neutral bystander's point of view, not the CoS). So it is a higher standard than what you might think of as the colloquial meaning of "insulting".
Now, I'm an athiest, but I can't stand the misuse of terminology, even if it feels clever to do so.
Cults engage in serious mind control. Religions are just a set of spiritual principles. For example, there are some Christians who worship in a cult-like society, and some that do not.
To those who want to cite bible passages, you're missing the point. It is the current behavior of the group that defines this, not what's in their books.
Anyone who studies scientology will know how intense their brainwashing is, and since I was once part of a Christian church that was not a cult, I know it is as different as night and day.
Cult behavior is along the lines of 'removing subject's ego, connections outside the church, ability to question doctrine', and these factors can sometimes be found in any religion, but are not attributed to the whole set of that religion.
Since the Church of Scientology is a hierarchal organization, it can be classified as a cult, but there are practitioners of Scientology beliefs in the 'Freezone' which do not answer to the CoS command and are not cultlike.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
that there is somewhere in the world where the system works rationally and figures itself out.
Chris [CapitalC]
I saw that Ontario is passing (or passed, maybe) new hate crime legislation that's limited to offenses against a "vulnerable minority". If the law is going to be applied selectively to defend only groups the prosecutors care about, it seems preferable to just state it up front like they're doing.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
...a rose by any other name is still a cult. Good news!
Going on means going far
Going far means returning
So using the word "cult" is not insulting or offensive, so he gets away... well, good for him, but that's the wrong principle. Freedom of speech is serious business, damnit! Everyone must have the right to insult and offend and wipe the butt clean on the holy books of every damn religion out there.
Circumcision is child abuse.
He was read the "Section 5 Public Order Act of 1986", told to remove the sign, and a short time later had the sign removed by police who then issued him a summons. Clear enough for you?
Going on means going far
Going far means returning
Bart: Church, cult, cult, church. So we'll get bored someplace else every Sunday. Does this really change our everyday lives?
How appropriate.
C-x C-s C-x k
While I don't disagree, I can't help but wonder how things would have gone if the statement was "The Anglican church is a dangerous cult." The wording of the ruling basically says this is criticism and is fine. It will be interesting to see this tested.
All negative connotations aside, the only functional difference between a cult and a religion is popular acceptance and usually membership size.
You're not fooling anyone, buddy.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
There is an excellent video of exactly what happened on the day. Both his initial warning and his response, which have been featured on youtube before, and also the police catching up with him in an underpass after they'd consulted the CPS and obtained a summons, which is new footage.
The video is currently available on http://www.schnews.org.uk/schmovies/index.html#cf
look for 'Cult Friction' and the 'click here to download link' (70mb mpeg)
The scientology planned on loosing this one...
http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=559324&cid=23489324
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
that the policewoman doing the summonsing didn't request him to remove his mask...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
I was just rummaging about and I discovered and interesting tit bit it appears in Scotland they are not allowed to call themselves a religion. If they are not a religion and can't call themselves that what do they characterize them selves as? (I really should look into that, as I live there...hmm might be able to get them into trouble)
This isn't a major liberties issue.
There have been several major changes to British liberties recently - the Terrorism Act is the beast behind almost all of them. Those changes - such as the outright ban on demonstrating near parliament and the requirement of express permission in order to do so nearby - are completely distinct from what has happened here.
Also, don't confuse the recent legal order curtailing legitimate demonstrations to a specified area either (Brian Haw has been protesting the Iraq war outside of Parliament for 6 years!)
What has happened here is quite simple: an irate Scientologist who doesn't know the Public Order Act as much as the officer involved, persuaded a PC to halt the demonstration because of the wording on the sign.
This was a mistake by the officer based upon the facts and wording of the sign which, as the CPS said, cannot be deemed to be threatening, insulting or abusive (Public Order Act).
The "cult" description of Scientology is now a matter of fact within UK (there's an EU opinion too) born from the obiter of Justice Latey from a 1984 high court ruling which the sign incongruously quoted.
The officer should have better exercised his office of constable, chosen to read what written, and make up his own mind (in the UK a police officer is responsible for his own actions, he cannot be commanded by those senior to do anything he does not believe is lawful - he is personally liable for what he does and does not, save for contractual/employment obligations). Here the PC showed he was inadequately aware of the Public Order Act which permits the 15 year old's protest.
The CPS was right. They did the lawful thing. It would never have gone to court from the get go. It is an utterly laughable mistake by the PC that even Lionel Hutz would have recognised!
I hope the London constabulary involved is property briefed on their public order duties. I personally feel this was entirely avoidable - especially since R(Laporte).
Matt
I agree that this decision is a good one. But I wonder...How would they rule on someone holding up a sign that says, "homosexual behavior is sinful"? Would that be seen as "threatening, abusive, or insulting"?
Should it be? If so, why?
Scientology doesn't really care about winning these cases. One of their tactics to cause fear and control people is by prosecuting and harassing them. This is nothing new!
That spelling error on his sign turned out to be fortuitous. "Scientologists are complete cults."
Strangely enough, $(cent)i(euro)nt(currency)£(currency)g¥ is the only word I could think of containing all of c, e, l, o, s and y. An interesting connection, really. :/
Also, neither cent, euro or generic currency symbols are supported with or without JS in the new discussion system, making this post way less funnier
No mention of what's going to happen to the police who have have abused their power. Probably the same thing that happened to the chaps who shot that poor Charles de Menezes eight times in the head without provocation, nothing.
What ever happened to the days of the local Bobby? Friend to all law abiding citizens, there to help and not hinder. Nowdays when you REPORT a crime they're rude to you.
What the fuck happened?
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Religion: A large, popular cult.
Cult: A small, unpopular religion.
Thinking for yourself: Awesome.
Question everything
That means we can hold up signs in 144 point fonts. F*&!ING* CULT
and in 12 point. * "FOOLING"
If thats not coercian of the worst kind I don't know what is. And it was a part of the roman catholic church - a supposed religion.
For those that don't understand the parent post, read about the Cult of $cientology bribing the cops.
I wonder how much would City of London Police go for on eBay? Pretty cheap probably.
The head of the crown prosecution service has just been arrested by the chief operating thetan of the city of London police and charged with being a suppressive person.
It's a crime to insult someone?
I thought that hate speech, inciting a crime, or defamation are the only types of speech that are illegal?
So what does freedom of speech mean then if you can't insult anyone or any organization? It's negative criticism generally insulting?
Does it really need a COURT judgment to decide that this was A Very, Very Stupid Idea?
No. It wasn't a court decision. The Crown Prosecution service is just the organisation that brings the prosecution on behalf of the government.
While I fear that _anything_ being posted below this rather abusive first post will get modded Troll, I have to say that wasn't all that offtopic in the first place.
Maybe American readers of this site are not that much aware of the situation in Britain, but for the last years signs held up at demonstrations asking to 'behead those who insult Islam' or for 'death to Israel' have gone 'unnoticed' by the British authorities, meaning that no-one ever got arrested for displaying them (or relentlessly shouting similar slogans). Many Europeans are already taking this as proof that Britain has finally fallen to the Islamists.
In that light, it would have been outrageously laughable if voicing this rather common sense opinion on Scientology would have resulted in prosecution.
A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
Theres apparently going to be a big protest on June 14th 'At A City Near You'.
My web domain.
http://www.libdemvoice.org/why-im-glad-nick-griffin-was-acquitted-235.html
Nick Griffin, the Leader of the BNP, was acquitted yesterday of charges of inciting racial hatred. In 2004 Griffin made a speech to BNP activists in which he described Islam as a "wicked, vicious faith" and said that Muslims were turning Britain into a "multi-racial hell hole".
Griffin is a racist, he espouses an ugly creed based on fear and ignorance, almost every word he says is offensive. But being offensive shouldn't be enough to land you in jail.
Yesterday, Mizanur Rahman, a young radical Islamist was jailed for his part in the protest earlier this year over the Danish newspaper cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. Rahman waved banners and chanted into a megaphone shouting "Annihilate those who insult Islam" and "Behead those who insult Islam."
Although he apologises now, Rahman's remarks were full of hate, they were grotesque, offensive and shocking. But being shocking shouldn't be enough to get you convicted.
I'm a black gay man and much of the anti-hatred legislation that Griffin and Rahman were prosecuted under was designed to protect people like me. But freedom is a delicate thing, and I believe that our current raft of hate crime laws in danger of undermining the very freedom they aim to protect.
So the "Behead those who insult Islam" guy was jailed, the scientology protester and the guy that called Islam a "wicked vicious faith" were not. Seems fair enough to me. Rahman clearly stepped over the incitement line and Griffin didn't (or more likely didn't step over it in public).
Rahman got six years in prison
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizanur_Rahman
He participated in the Islamist demonstration outside the Danish Embassy in London in 2006, where he prayed "Oh Allah, we want to see another 9/11 in Iraq, another 9/11 in Denmark, another 9/11 in Spain, in France, all over Europe. Oh Allah, destroy all of them." [3] On November 9, 2006, he was found guilty of inciting racial hatred[4]. The jury could not reach a verdict on the charge of inciting murder. The Crown indicated it would seek a retrial.[5] At his retrial in 2007 he was additionally convicted on the solicitation to murder, and sentenced to six years in prison.
The government must really hate you if they keep trying you until they get the right result. And everyone else must hate you too if no one questions this dubious piece of gamesmanship. Many Europeans are already taking this as proof that Britain has finally fallen to the Islamists. I'd say France's suburbs have already fallen to the Islamists. And Malmo in Sweden is pretty close to doing so. But the British state has centuries of experience ruling all sorts of people. The people at that demonstration are a tiny, unpopular minority on state benefits and the rules can be rewritten to make life very unpleasant for them. In that light, it would have been outrageously laughable if voicing this rather common sense opinion on Scientology would have resulted in prosecution. I agree it would have been laughable if this 15 year old Anonymous guy had been prosecuted. I'd throw the book at Rahman though. And rewrite it and throw it again if the first time didn't do the trick.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Once again, the stupid inflammatory propaganda is modded up, while the simple truth is ignored.
I know you all like to have a big circle jerk over how Europe is being taken over by the Muslims, who get away with anything, but it simply isn't true.
The protesters who were caught by police chanting those slogans were arrested, and they were prosecuted and some of them are now in jail.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6904622.stm
I'd hardly call 6 years in jail is hardly unnoticed.
Muslims are not being allowed to get away with hate speech any more tan anyone else, Abu Hamza (the crazy hook handed guy for those who don't know him) is in jail for inciting racial hatrid, and soliciting murder, so have other muslim preachers http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7354397.stm
Muslims are held accountable just the same as everyone else. I'm afraid your apocalyptic fantasy of a Muslim takeover is just that a fantasy.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK