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Microsoft Offered $40 a Share For Yahoo

fistfullast33l writes "Bloomberg is reporting that a recently unsealed court case by shareholders against Yahoo reveals that Microsoft offered $40 a share for the Internet search company in January 2007 and Yahoo turned it down. We've extensively discussed Microsoft's bid for Yahoo earlier this year for $33 a share, which was rebuffed. Investor Carl Icahn has launched a proxy fight against Yahoo over the spurning of the Microsoft deal." CWmike notes Computerworld's coverage of the revelations: "The complaint places much of the blame on [Yahoo CEO Jerry] Yang, describing him as someone with a 'well-known' antipathy toward Microsoft who acted out of a personal interest to keep Yahoo independent. Something wrong with that? Oh, yeah... public company."

306 comments

  1. It's like watching ugly people kiss by seanadams.com · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Who hasn't already written off both of these companies? Anyone holding either of them for the long term simply does not grok where the internet and personal computing are going, or how desperately inept these two companies have become due to their size and age.

    Microsoft's asset is an OS that people are still locked into, but becoming violently sick of. Yahoo's asset is a rapidly diminishing brand and user base. Combine them and you just get an even faster and more epic fail. This is the next AOL/TW.

    The guys who will eat their lunch are the Googles and Apples of the world, who are both innovating and listening to their customers. Size alone won't help you compete with that, you need to get back to innovating. I think people are being way too slow to jump the sinking ship here - if I were a YHOO shareholder, I'd have dumped as soon as the offer hit the table and the stock hit $30. Why on earth would you hold out for $31?

    1. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by DigDuality · · Score: 1, Redundant

      with the rate of growth of Redhat in the datacenter, I'd throw them up there with Google and Apple too.

    2. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by whisper_jeff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why on earth would you hold out for $31?

      Well, as but one example, Carl Ichan is reported to own about 50 million shares in Yahoo ( http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080513/yahoo_icahn.html ) so a stock increase from $30 to $31 represents a profit of about $50 million. Now, call me wacky, but that sounds like a good reason to me...

    3. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by nategoose · · Score: 1

      I agree, for the most part, but AOL and TW didn't overlap in what they had going into the deal nearly as much as MS and yahoo do. MS doesn't gain anything they don't already have by acquiring yahoo except a yahoo personals (and MSN already has a tie in with match.com). They'd get some more account members (a lot of which already have hotmail/msn accounts in addition to yahoo), some programmers (MS already hires programmers they don't need to play keep away), a new name, and a bunch of sites that have the same stuff that they already have and aren't making . Yahoo is only worth something to NOT MS.

    4. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by negRo_slim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who hasn't already written off both of these companies? I would assume only a fool would write off two of the largest tech companies in the country (with a combined revenue of 57.33B).

      or how desperately inept these two companies have become due to their size and age. Yes because we all know the only real innovation isn't done in multi-million dollar research centers, it's done in dad's garage, duh!

      Microsoft's asset is an OS that people are still locked into, but becoming violently sick of. Yeah one would think the nightly car bombings outside of Microsoft's HQ would finally stop this 'stay the course' mentality. But for some reason people seem to enjoy using a OS on cheap hardware the runs reliably and quickly when configured properly. Oh and plays the latest games!.. We're in the twilight zone now.

      Yahoo's asset is a rapidly diminishing brand and user base I'm sure that's it. Not anything to do with years of R&D or their Publisher Network.

      The guys who will eat their lunch are the Googles and Apples of the world Yes because it's all about Google Search on OSX.

      /sigh I have no problem with your mention of Google, but Apple... Really? Like for realsies? Sorry bro, I'm into computers... Not toys.
      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    5. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by HerculesMO · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple is innovating?

      They take technology that exists in lots of other places, and put it in a prettier package. OSX is nice, but it's BSD with pretty graphics.

      The iPhone is nice, but it's a cleaned up version of the Nokia E70 (see: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone)

      Apple is known NOT to listen to their customers. They listen to Steve Jobs (and for their benefit, I might add).

      Honestly, Microsoft has been around the block on these types of things before, and while Google and Apple are big threats, I don't consider Microsoft a 'stupid' company by any means -- I feel they will have a period of crap (oh wait, Vista...), reorganize and come back stronger.

      And in the end it's better for us all if they do. Although if MS ever put out an OS that is better than Linux on security, and better than OSX on ease of use and prettiness -- Slashdotters would still decry it. So I guess on this site, it's lose lose for them. But their bank accounts are still rather full.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    6. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by skiflyer · · Score: 1

      And anyone who believes your arguments doesn't grok money, momentum, business users or how real individuals (as opposed to just geeks) use personal computers.

      But hey, claim an argument is obvious and it must be right!

    7. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Roman+Geyzer · · Score: 1

      You have forgotten that MSFT and YHOO are far more diversified than you give them credit for. MSFT will be selling OS's for many many years to come and there's a place in the market for that. Plus they have a fledgling suite of business products that neither GOOG nor AAPL have been able to penetrate. Be careful who you write-off in this world. That said, I agree that the pace of innovation has been poor at MSFT and they need to start getting more creative. However, I think they do need to merge their search engines and advertising platforms to achieve the scale it will take to keep and win over advertisers while improving the user's experience.

    8. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Speaking of ugly people...

      He can "want" it all he likes, but it's unlikely he's going to get it at this point. A nice brutal minority shareholder lawsuit should finish the company off nicely.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    9. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft's asset is an OS that people are still locked into, but becoming violently sick of. That's an interesting concept, but most people don't know what an operating system is. To a majority of the purchasing public, an OS is part of the computer. Both companies (Apple, MS) are aggressively perpetuating this myth; and the consumer will very likely never realize that there's a difference.
    10. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by tprime · · Score: 1

      The guys who will eat their lunch are the Googles and Apples of the world, who are both innovating and listening to their customers

      Apple caring about their customers? I am not quite sure why that reputation still lives but they have almost become the next Microsoft in terms of how many decisions they make to limit what users can do with their tools (not going to cite links, but just do a /. seach on Apple for the last couple of years)

      Google innovates, but they are no longer the darling of their 'do no evil' days. They are on here lately as much as Apple in terms of their lack of social conscience.

      Personally, I like Google and Apple, but to think that given time and power they won't become the same kind of companies Microsoft and Yahoo are is short sighted. The industry is cyclical (and fickle.) As Microsoft and Yahoo continue their slow decline (yes it will be VERY slow for MS because of their cash reserves), other companies will grow. Over time those companies, like google, will eventually fade when they stop being about the customer and more about profit and appeasing the other corporate warlords.

      --
      http://www.tomandemily.com
    11. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by AndersOSU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh yeah I feel real sorry for the guy who didn't cash out for $1,500,000,000 because he could have made $1,550,000,000

    12. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would you hold out for $31? Well, as but one example, Carl Ichan is reported to own about 50 million shares in Yahoo ( http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080513/yahoo_icahn.html ) so a stock increase from $30 to $31 represents a profit of about $50 million. Now, call me wacky, but that sounds like a good reason to me... Only if he's selling the shares he personally holds. Until then, it's just a number - and when you have $1,500,000,000 (yes, 1.5bn) in stock to begin with, it's a fairly insignificant number at that.
    13. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by sobachatina · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I don't necessarily disagree with your point that MS and Yahoo should be taken seriously but this was funny:

      people seem to enjoy using a OS on cheap hardware... Oh and plays the latest games! then

      Sorry bro, I'm into computers... Not toys. Your arguments for windows are that it is cheap and plays games and then you discredit everything else as toys? I agreed with you all the way up to that final statement.
    14. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by pluther · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MS doesn't gain anything they don't already have by acquiring yahoo ...Yahoo is only worth something to NOT MS.

      Which may be exactly why MS is so interested in acquiring Yahoo. They do a lot of the same things. And so does Google. So, instead of MS vs. Yahoo vs. Google, it would be MS Yahoo vs. Google.

      Sometimes the point isn't to expand into new markets, but to gain control of the ones you're already in.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    15. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh, and I should add is now stuck with a measly $1,307,500,000 worth of yahoo shares.

    16. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 1

      Damn it! The first thread I read after giving out the last of my mods and I wish I had them all back. For what it's worth, very insightful!

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    17. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by pluther · · Score: 2, Insightful

      but Apple... Really? Like for realsies? Sorry bro, I'm into computers... Not toys.

      Perhaps you are - but a great many people are into toys. People aren't buying iPhone's because it's the most useful ultra-portable computer around (it isn't even close) - they're buying it because it's fun.

      Yeah, I'd be watching Apple again, too. Not their desktop computer lines, but they have a lot more going for them than that.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    18. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Cochonou · · Score: 1

      I find ironic the apparent contradiction of some of your arguments:
      -But for some reason people seem to enjoy using a OS on cheap hardware the runs reliably and quickly when configured properly. Oh and plays the latest games!..
      -Sorry bro, I'm into computers... Not toys.

      That does not make some of your other points invalid, though.

    19. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by abigor · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Apple is innovating?

      They take technology that exists in lots of other places, and put it in a prettier package. OSX is nice, but it's BSD with pretty graphics. No, it's not. You should consider learning about software technology sometime.
    20. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by nategoose · · Score: 1

      If the value of MS right now is M, and the value of Yahoo is Y, then what is the value of MS + Yahoo? I predict it's actually less than M if for no other reason than the expense of acquiring Yahoo. MS needs to either figure out why they aren't as successful as Google in the web portal business and concentrate on fixing what they already have or find a different battle to fight.

    21. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      Thank you for that very insightful reply.

      Now I know exactly why you think I'm wrong.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    22. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by stubear · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the Maddox reference. I had read that one before but I still laughed my ass off this tome around.

    23. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by xtracto · · Score: 1

      Apple is innovating?

      They take technology that exists in lots of other places, and put it in a prettier package. OSX is nice, but it's BSD with pretty graphics.


      I do not have *any* apple product (I am not their market) but I think the multitouch mouse with gestures in personal computers was a first.

      Now just give a look at the recent news (at news.google.com) and you will see how Microsoft is all multitouch and stuff. Of course all they are doing is promising vapourware for the upcoming Windows 7 which as with Longhorn, we know it won't have all the technology they are currently hyping (I'm looking at you "three pillars")

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    24. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by skiflyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's 3.3% ... depending how long it takes to make that dollar that could be very large or very small. Just because the numbers are big doesn't make them insignificant... you always have to measure in %, and by % 3.3% for a day is a good day for most stocks.

    25. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Miseph · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Also consider that when somebody dumps $1.5bn of a single stock, it is no longer worth $1.5bn.

      I'd imagine the real reason he's pissed is that he's so heavily invested in Yahoo he can't possibly get out of it.

      That said, even if it halved in value had he sold his stock off, he can still cry me a river: "I only made $750,000,000 cashing out my YHOO stocks, wah!"

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    26. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by $1uck · · Score: 1

      The only hope (IMHO) for Microsoft is to split into several different companies one Offering an OS, one offering Development Tools/solutions, one for Entertainment, one for Business software. Companies that have no ties implicit or explicit as I think it is these ties between the various business units that is killing them.

    27. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by abigor · · Score: 1

      That's good, I'm glad I was of help. Once you've learned some operating systems fundamentals, I recommend reading "Mac OS X Internals" by Amit Singh.

    28. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by jslater25 · · Score: 1

      It's not a question of whether you feel sorry for him. Rather, the question was why hold out for $31 when there is an offer for $30. Whether or not you feel compassion for the guy is completely irrelevant.

    29. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by c_forq · · Score: 1

      Your sarcasm should be seriousness. OS-X is not BSD. That is exactly why you are wrong.

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    30. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by MobyDisk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why does Slashdot love Google sooo much? Frankly, I find Yahoo to be a very competitive search engine. There are a few things I think it does better than Google, especial when searching for obscure information. Yahoo's movies, weather, etc. make it really useful. I think for the average home user who wants a "portal" Yahoo is the best balance between a pure search engine and a good home page. Why does everyone hate them so much?

    31. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      I never made the argument that Microsoft *is* innovating either you know :)

      I'm just saying that Apple isn't the "big" innovator they are being made out to be. Google, perhaps... but most things nowadays are evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    32. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by sexconker · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Don't worry about seanadams (or his dot com).

      Nothing he said made any logical sense, he's just an anti-MS, pro Google fanboy.

    33. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by geekoid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Have you seen the new iPods? a little bigger then a credit card with color video?
      Creating that board they way the did was genius, and they laid out some new techniques.

      "The iPhone is nice, but it's a cleaned up version of the Nokia E70"
      are you high? it is a lot cleaner then E70, better usability, better circuit layout, and much, much more stylish. And no, stylish is not an opinion. That is a myth created by people who don't know what they hell style means.

      "Slashdotters would still decry it. "
      I've been here too long to believe that. Some would, but many would give it it's due...grudgingly.

      MS's bank account are rather emptier then they where 8 years ago.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    34. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by jslater25 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wish I had mod points for this. I agree with the statements negRo_slim made in this post. If so many people are 'becoming violently sick of' Microsoft's OS, how is it possible that they control such a dominate position in that market? This perplexes me anytime people decide to rant about the awfulness of Microsoft. As for Apple beating out Microsoft, I have to laugh out loud. Apple has been in this market for ages. And yet they consistently manage to have less than 10% of the market. That constitutes a formidable giant? I don't think you really understand what it is you are arguing.

    35. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by geekoid · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, it's not insightful at all. If you think it is I hope to hell you don't get mod points ever again.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    36. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      You're right -- it's not. It's NEXT.

      Either way, they made an OS that is pretty, works pretty solid (on their own hardware), and has some nice creature comforts that make it a pleasure to use.

      How is that "innovation"? An OS that works well? Innovation? I thought innovation is something NEW. I'm sorry, but since for the last few years that all Apple came out with is iPod after iPod, my patience level for them has dwindled.

      And I own an iPhone to boot. Heh.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    37. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Whoopity doo. So it's Mach -- from CMU -- with a BSD personality layer.
      Apple really doesn't make any especially innovative use of the micro-kernality of OSX, it might just as well be a monolithic BSD kernel for all the difference it's made.

    38. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      The thing though with Red Hat (and Fedora) are losing distro marketshare to Ubuntu and other Debian-based distros. RPM and YUM are miles behind DEB and APT though RPM is improving. I don't think that Red Hat will suddenly go bankrupt, but I think that after the MS collapse it will be Canonical at number 1, Novell and Red Hat tied for number 2 and then Apple for number 3 (Apple cannot survive if it doesn't keep the "better underdog" spot) and then various other Linux businesses such as TurboLinux, Xandros, etc.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    39. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 0, Troll

      No, it's not. Sorry, but you make me laugh. This is a playground retort one makes near the jungle gym.

      You should consider learning about software technology sometime. And this vague comment backs up your playground argument how? Perhaps I should suggest you seek assistance from an English major.
      Your Apple fanboyism is corrupting your brain, it would be best if you could seek some clarity. Or maybe stay away from the bananologer.
      -
      This post written on a PowerBook G4 running OSX 10.4.11
    40. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by westlake · · Score: 1
      Who hasn't already written off both of these companies? Anyone holding either of them for the long term simply does not grok where the internet and personal computing are going, or how desperately inept these two companies have become due to their size and age

      60% of Microsoft's revenues come from outside the US.

      Microsoft is long past the point where it can be significantly wounded by a recession in the states.

      Microsoft is building a $300 million dollar research campus for 5,000 engineers in Beijing's "Silicon Valley."

      Microsoft is very, very strongly positioned in emerging markets. Windows XP and MS Office on the OLPC should have taught the geek that much.

      Microsoft's asset is an OS that people are still locked into, but becoming violently sick of.

      There is little evidence for this beyond the geek's own fantasies.

      Top Operating System Share Trend {By Versions], Operating System Market Share. [June 3, 2008] OS Platform Statistics

      In these familiar webstats, OSX holds a familiar, quite comfortable niche, but still only a niche.

      MS Vista should reach a 20% share in the Net Applications stats by late summer. Mostly through OEM consumer sales of Vista Premium - which means mostly as a sucessfull competitor to the Mac.

      Linux bringing up the rear as always.

    41. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GPU is a part of the computer but yet I see joe averages replacing them more and more.

    42. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by uep · · Score: 1

      I hate to state the obvious, but if it drops another dollar he loses another $50 million. I think that is a pretty good reason to dump some of it...

    43. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 0

      Look at the Yahoo homepage, immediately there are banner ads, and heavy use of both Flash and JavaScript. With Google, you get a simple, fast loading homepage with only a few links, a search box and the Google logo. If you prefer a "portal" look, iGoogle is much better then Yahoo because A) You choose what you want on there B) No flash C) No banner ads D) customized look. Also, look at how much Yahoo has innovated in the last oh 8 years, 0. Google on the other hand added, maps, satellite imagery, iGoogle, Google News, Froogle, online video, a code search, medical records search, a decent translator program, oh not to mention you can work on documents and spreadsheets. And what as Yahoo added new that Google didn't have first? More banner ads? Oh, and there is also the Yahoo toolbar that just about everything installed in Windows wants you to add, that is just plain annoying (yes Google has one but not every program on Windows wants to install it for you).

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    44. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      ...but if he bought/was compensated with those when Yahoo was at its high, getting $31 for a $100 stock would hurt... even WITH lube.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    45. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Who hasn't already written off both of these companies? Me, and millions of others with billions of dollars.

      Anyone holding either of them for the long term simply does not grok where the internet and personal computing are going, or how desperately inept these two companies have become due to their size and age. "YEAR OF THE LINUX DESKTOP!!" ?

      Microsoft's asset is an OS that people are still locked into, but becoming violently sick of. Locked into? Who's fault was that? People CHOSE DOS and Windows, and they had damned good reasons to. There are other choices, and people can and will move away from Microsoft products if they wish. But until some flavor of Linux, Mac OS, or some other OS comes anywhere close to MS's market share, their assets will be sittin' pretty.

      Yahoo's asset is a rapidly diminishing brand and user base. Combine them and you just get an even faster and more epic fail. This is the next AOL/TW. Yahoo Mail has tons of users, as does it's chat client. Diminishing brand and user base? Says who? Faster and epic fail? You sir, are an idiot.

      The guys who will eat their lunch are the Googles and Apples of the world, who are both innovating and listening to their customers. Apple doesn't listen to their customers, their customers listen to Steve Jobs and parrot his every word. Every product they make is an affront to usability and productivity. They serve only to create and reinforce trendy elitist attitudes, all the while charging way too much for far too little.

      Google has customers? You mean, the people who buy stock and ads? Last I heard, they were burning through capital faster than a motorized beaver at a toothpick factory. Fancy offices ("campuses") with day care and pet care and free massages and ultra modern furniture and such aren't cheap. Stock holders are getting pissed, and will want to see Google EARNING money very soon. Here in the real world, P/E ratios still mean something. As for the advertisers, they all want to jump ship, but have no where to go. Google owns Double Click, and rules the adspace with an iron fist. Listening to the advertisers would be sacrilege. Google sets the rules and if you don't like it, tough shit. You talk about MS lock in, yet you completely ignore the fact that Google owns virtually all of the online advertising market.

      Size alone won't help you compete with that, you need to get back to innovating. Nothing I have seen out of Apple or Google has ever been innovative. Refined, redesigned, polished and put in a shiny package sure, but e-mail, maps, ads, web searches, mp3 players, unix, and cell phones are nothing new. You will NEVER see the innovation that occurred in the 70s and 80s in the PC market again.

      I think people are being way too slow to jump the sinking ship here - if I were a YHOO shareholder, I'd have dumped as soon as the offer hit the table and the stock hit $30. Why on earth would you hold out for $31? Because $31 represents a 3.333...% increase?
      That's better than your typical 12-month CD right now. And let's not forget, the majority of the shareholders were all for the sale. Ballmer went in, made an offer, and Yang was a whiny bitch. Did Yang think he could get more? Did Yang just hate the idea of being bought out by MS? It doesn't matter, because he walked right into Ballmer's trap, and he may soon a coup on his hands, and MS may get to pick up Yahoo, or the portions it wants, for far less.

      In case anyone is wondering, MS wants THIS:
      http://answers.yahoo.com/
    46. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by bkr1_2k · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They control a dominant position in the market because they've been there for so long. Looking at the statistics though, they are hemorrhaging market share in the laptop world (which is where the future is) and are also losing share elsewhere, though not as quickly. Remember, nobody stays at the top forever. "The king is dead. Long live the king" and all that, though I think they've still got some life in them.

      They're not down for the count but they need to do something soon to recover what they've already lost.

      Apple has 10% of the overall market, but something like 40% of the new laptop market, if I remember correctly the stats I read recently. With more and more people moving to the laptop and mobile market, that does constitute a formidable giant, especially when you consider they've been around as long as MS and are gaining position, rather than losing it.

      That said, it's a cyclical market, Apple floundered for a long time and still survived. Microsoft will be able to do the same, at least for a little while.

      --
      "Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
    47. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      MS needs to either figure out why they aren't as successful as Google in the web portal business and concentrate on fixing what they already have or find a different battle to fight.

      Because MS can't innovate, they might be able to copy, but they haven't innovated since they were founded. Sure they can take someone else's idea and make it into an OK product, but more often then not the original is better. If MS actually innovated, invented and didn't make everything seem so "corporate" they could have a better marketshare, but honestly, MS has never really innovated, be it with DOS, Windows, Office, etc. MS can not innovate. And in the web, you don't need rock-solid code (though that would be nice) but you need standards and innovation, both which MS has always proven they lack.
      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    48. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > OSX is nice, but it's BSD with pretty graphics.

      I think the person most qualified to sort you out there is Rick.Rashid@microsoft.com.

          -A BSD bigot.

    49. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 1

      I do not have *any* apple product (I am not their market) but I think the multitouch mouse with gestures in personal computers was a first. If you mean multitouch screen with gestures, I believe these guys had it first. I remember being introduced to this website when Apple was first showing off the technology. If you mean something else, please elaborate.
      -
      This post written on 'roids. Feel free to interpet this however you choose.
    50. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      I would assume only a fool would write off two of the largest tech companies in the country (with a combined revenue of 57.33B).

      MS and Yahoo are both going downhill. About the only people I know who use Yahoo just use it for the e-mail, most everyone else uses Google, also just look at the verb Google and you get an idea of how Google is the preferred search rather then Yahoo.

      Yes because we all know the only real innovation isn't done in multi-million dollar research centers, it's done in dad's garage, duh!

      Well, if you look at how much more innovative Ubuntu is compared to Vista, you get the idea. MS can't innovate. They can copy, they can pre-install crap on people's computers and they will use it, but seriously, no one can say without lying that Vista is more innovative then Ubuntu.

      Yeah one would think the nightly car bombings outside of Microsoft's HQ would finally stop this 'stay the course' mentality. But for some reason people seem to enjoy using a OS on cheap hardware the runs reliably and quickly when configured properly. Oh and plays the latest games!.. We're in the twilight zone now.

      Ummm... Linux fills that void also. I am, as I type this, on an old Dell Dimension desktop (made in 2002) I got for $25, with a monitor I got for $7 and Xubuntu (8.04 making it newer then Vista) that cost me about 10 cents for the blank CD and perhaps 25 cents for the bandwidth needed to download it, bringing my rig to a grand total of $32.35, now don't tell me I can get a Windows machine (with Vista Home Basic as we are comparing both of the newest low-end OSes) that runs as well as my Dimension for less then $32.35. Now, Macs are more expensive, but if you compare the price to see how much it takes to run Vista at the same level as OS X runs on the Mac, they aren't that much different. As for games, it would take a computer made in 2007/2008 to run most of the latest games unless you upgraded the computer and that computer would have cost about $600-$1000 making the lowest at least as cheap as a Mac Mini. So unless you can prove to me otherwise, stop spreading your lies.
      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    51. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A HAHAHAHAHAHA. You honestly believe that after some pending MS collapse that 3 different linux distributions will have the OS top market share? And you got modded Informative...

      The level of self affirmation on this site has hit a new level.

    52. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Red Hat isn't innovating. It's the OS equivalent of replacing your domestic assembly line with one in China.

    53. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ok, so how else is MS going to get money when businesses are not buying Office 2007 because it is too different, not buying Vista because of reliability issues, and even the ordinary person sees Vista as a slow, unfamiliar piece of crap? What else is going to fill this void? Not Apple for sure after all the "think different" campaigns, the Apple brand has to be higher then the ordinary brand, and MS seems to have killed off all commercial OSes, so where else are people going to get OSes for computers? Linux is free, can look just like Windows/Mac/Atari/Amiga/etc. and is supported by many major businesses. you can't avoid the fact that Vista is a disaster, and Office 2007 is unfamiliar, MS has to innovate or die and it has shown it is not capable of innovating

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    54. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      miles ahead? I think that's quite an exaggeration

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    55. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Apple is innovating? They take technology that exists in lots of other places, and put it in a prettier package. OSX is nice, but it's BSD with pretty graphics.

      Well, it sure innovates more then MS, Yahoo and a lot of other major tech companies do...
      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    56. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Well, at least in my experience (and various Linux magazines have alluded to it) APT is much faster then YUM, and also RPM has had a nasty but in Fedora until Fedora 8 that wouldn't even let you install a RPM without an internet connection by default (and the steps were complicated on how to make it work).

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    57. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because when I'm looking for a new phone, "better circuit layout" is totally in the top 5 things I look for.

    58. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      Obviously having 50 million shares and holding out for a buck is an attractive proposition. However, someone very wise told me, you NEVER get burned taking a profit.

      Take for example a sell of BCE:TSX on it's buy out announcement. If you sold a few days after the announcement you would have got $40.00 or more and if you sold today as the deal falls apart you get $34.60. That greed of hoping for a better offer cost $5.40 per share. Lesson one, know when not to be too greedy. YHOO is the same kind of deal.

      When in the market, it is just as important to know when to buy as well as when to sell. I would have in at least lightened up my position while the deal was hot. Look at it this way, Carl Icahn and the Yahoo board are all greedy and it cost them almost $7 share so far.

      As a seasoned (or I like to think so) private investor I would have had limit sell orders out on YHOO and even if I owned 50M shares, I would have been down to 10-20m as soon as I could.

    59. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by x_MeRLiN_x · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Office 2007 is actually very successful. Don't allow yourself to be manipulated by the Slashdot anti-Microsoft sentiments.

      I also found the assertion of the GP hilarious. Do you interpret this graph as showing Microsoft's impending doom? If you do, you need glasses.

    60. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by c_forq · · Score: 1

      I never claimed OS-X was innovative, new, or anything. I was just pointing out that it wasn't BSD. But since you bring it up, I think Apple has definitely had some innovations. My MacBook Pro now has multi-touch, which I have yet to see in any other OS. The finder now as quickview, which again is something I haven't seen before. You can argue all day about the tech behind it, but Time Machine brought about a huge change in how people look at back-ups. When Expose first came on the scene I had never seen anything like it, but that was long before I owned an Apple and when I was still using Knoppix instead of a dedicated partition. But personally, it doesn't matter at all if something is new to me, it matters if it is functional and efficient. If innovation was the important factor in computing then BeOS would have taken over the world.

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    61. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      Who hasn't already written off both of these companies? I would assume only a fool would write off two of the largest tech companies in the country (with a combined revenue of 57.33B).

      He had it right. Both have been lethargic in the last few years with regards to shareholder value. I wrote them off years ago, and yes, I do own some tech companies. A 1 year chart comparing the two in growth (shareholder value). Just because they are big means nothing to a shareholder, show me the growth/dividends. The rest is well, chair throwing of no value. I will even predict Q4 for MSFT, you want shorts on the stock.

    62. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by HisMother · · Score: 1

      Do you interpret this graph as showing Microsoft's impending doom? If you do, you need glasses. I call BS; that's a nonsense graph if I ever saw one. Where's XP? What's Windows 2000 doing with those kind of numbers?
      --
      Cantankerous old coot since 1957.
    63. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by GrahamCox · · Score: 1

      Sorry bro, I'm into computers... Not toys

      1986 called... it wants its playground chant back.

    64. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Paaskonijn · · Score: 1

      Apple is innovating? (...) OSX is nice, but it's BSD with pretty graphics. So they're innovating in the graphics department.
    65. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's bad enough to have one oddball claim that Microsoft and Yahoo should be written off without having someone else agree with them like it's the most normal thing in the world. It's a nice fantasy with regards to MS, but it's just a fantasy. MS is still a monopoly. Vista sucks and it's still being adopted. Only Europe has been trying to fight the trend, but it's one small piece at a time with successes and failures, and MS dragging its feet the whole way. We shall see what becomes of it all. It's far from a given that MS won't still be a monopoly in ten years. They've never been especially good at software, if you ask me. Leveraging their lock-in is where they excel.

    66. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by x_MeRLiN_x · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's Windows 2000 doing with a whopping 4.5%? I don't know. Maybe 4 to 5 out of every 100 computers still uses Windows 2000. Even more users of W3schools (yes, a site aimed at developers) used Windows 2000 at the same time as the graph was published.

      XP isn't on the graph because more than 5% of people use it. I think.

      Microsoft wasn't charged with abusing its monopoly because they only have a small portion of the market

      You can search for other web statistics and they all pretty much match up. Welcome to the realisation that you've been misled by Slashdot.

    67. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0

      If Apple let go of the hardware and let people buy OSX for non-Apple machines (complete with EFI emulation), Windows would implode.

      Microsoft is indeed a dying company, but it's got a solid hold on the world. It's like tying someone to the frame of an airplane by weak cloth strips and opening the bay door: sure they're still hooked up, but for the next couple hours they'll be dangling out the back while the only shit securing them to the plane rips and tears slowly, until they're finally gone. Up to that point the situation just looks a little nasty, but not particularly alarming when you consider how ridiculous it is that someone that well tied down is actually going to break away....

    68. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1
      now don't tell me I can get a Windows machine (with Vista Home Basic as we are comparing both of the newest low-end OSes) that runs as well as my Dimension for less then $32.35

      If you have a business, your cost to convert your install base away from Windows is WAY more than $32.25. You've got to look at the total cost of ownership - Your other applications, training, productivity, etc.

      Chances are, if "Mabel in Accounting" got upgraded from Win98 to XP her learning curve wasn't too large. Ditto if and when you upgrade her from XP to Vista - Your costs due to lost productivity would be low - Maybe a morning as she "learned her new computer". However, if you 'upgraded' her to Linux you'd lose a lot more than $32.25 as Mabel tried to figure out how to get her 'wallpaper' back etc. Now add onto that the applications Mabel uses - You've got her trained on Great Plains for Windows and now you've got to train her in Great Plains for Linux (or whatever).

      Generally this is why companies don't change platforms - The per-unit cost might be lower, but the "TCO" (total cost of ownership) is higher.

    69. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by clampolo · · Score: 1

      I also found the assertion of the GP hilarious

      I use Linux at home and I got to agree that he's living in a fantasy land. Linux has less than 1% of the desktop market last I saw. When at least 10% of the desktops sold have Linux on them, Ill start to believe in Microsoft's death. Hell, their nearest competition is Apple at some 7%

    70. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by nbert · · Score: 1

      I also found the assertion of the GP hilarious. Do you interpret this graph as showing Microsoft's impending doom? If you do, you need glasses.
      Makes me wonder why they didn't include BSD for reference. But all kidding aside it's the first variant of Windows taking over this slowly*. Vista sales are slightly higher than the number of new PC's sold since Vista's release and that doesn't include the people who deliberately downgrade after purchasing a new computer. Kind of moot argument if you are talking about a company which highly encourages every manufacturer to include the newest version as part of the contracts they have.

      Win2000 and XP on the other hand beat their predecessors within a couple of month after their initial release. And I'm too lazy to look it up after reading parent's source.

      To be fair MS is performing quite well despite all the wrong decisions they made. We won't see them fall over the next decade**. But Vista is not going to help them and it was a long time ago it was easier for competitors to tackle MS' core market. .

      *I don't know about ME, on the other hand 2000 and XP came shortly after.

      **Ok, think of any other company which sits on 254 billion equity and has no debt. Plus they don't pay dividends. Compare that to GM for example and calculate how many years it would take before they run out of money ;)
    71. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Nope, not a good reason. Sell the stock at $30, make diversified investments with the $1.5Bn, make $50M in half a day. It's 3%, if you can't make 10% in a year you're doing it wrong.

      When I buy, my stocks go down. I buy more. I examine my investments, but I play a good game. My losses are coming back now in the financial sector, but it's still distressed-- good. I want that stuff for another 3-4 years, an another 1-2 years of this "horrible economy" will prove quite profitable to me.

    72. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Obviously having 50 million shares and holding out for a buck is an attractive proposition. However, someone very wise told me, you NEVER get burned taking a profit.

      Take for example a sell of BCE:TSX on it's buy out announcement. If you sold a few days after the announcement you would have got $40.00 or more and if you sold today as the deal falls apart you get $34.60. That greed of hoping for a better offer cost $5.40 per share. Lesson one, know when not to be too greedy. YHOO is the same kind of deal.

      Buyers win, sellers win, greed loses.
    73. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      When you buy a company the money goes to shareholders, who then leave with it seeing as they no longer own the company and they and their money are now trespassing.

      Microsoft was going to go $1.2Bn into debt on the deal and I was going to laugh. Man....

    74. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by cshbell · · Score: 1

      I would assume only a fool would write off two of the largest tech companies in the country (with a combined revenue of 57.33B).

      Twenty years ago, many wise and learned economists protested the warnings of a few mavericks who followed the automotive industry and saw dark clouds rolling into Detroit, saying, "Only a fool would write off the three largest automobile manufacturers in the world (with a combined revenue of hundreds of billions)."

      If the past twelve months have shown us anything, they have shown us that economics is an art, not a science, and as such is not fettered by laws of causality. Many people believed that oil would not rocket 25% or even 30% past $100/barrel. Many people believed that food and agriculture costs were far enough divorced from energy costs that an increase in the latter would not substantially contribute to an increase in the former. And many, many people believed that housing was an "investment" that would never substantially depreciate in value.

      You are looking at the economic world of 2008 through the wrong end of the telescope. Microsoft and Yahoo! may have a "combined" revenue of $57.33B (though Microsoft accounts for the lion's share of that) but their future prosperity -- even existence -- is hardly a given. Both companies have demonstrated amply in recent history that they are full of institutional inertia that, true to form, demonstrates Newton's principle that a body set into motion will thus continue in motion.

    75. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Microsoft CANNOT survive losing out to a competitor. If OpenOffice.org on MacOSX took the market, the company wouldn't know how to survive as the little guy; really Ballmer would fight HARD and destroy any chance of recovery MS had.

    76. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A billion dollars is still a billion dollars, even if you paid 3 billion for it. Yeah...it would suck to lose 2 billion dollars, but in the grand scheme of things, is there really anything you can do with 3 billion that you can't do with 1 billion? It's not like you get to take all that wealth with you when you leave this life. Money is an enabler of goals, not a goal in and of itself. Those who forget that will end up dying full of regret.

    77. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by mangu · · Score: 0

      Do you interpret this graph as showing Microsoft's impending doom?

      I confess I don't know how to interpret a graph that omits the leading OS, which is XP. How many users are switching from XP to Vista? How many are buying computers with Vista only to "downgrade" to XP?


      I think this graph is much more meaningful to the discussion.

    78. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      Now that rationale makes a lot more sense to me.

    79. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I don't know about the rest of that 4.5%, but I'm typing this on Win2K Pro because it is reliable as hell(Never had a BSOD,unlike my XP rig) resource light(typing on a 1.1Ghz Celeron with 512Mb of RAM and it runs great even while multitasking) and it never gives me any grief. So if this one ever dies I have a 1.5Ghz Duron board sitting in the closet that I'll slap in the case,load Win2K pro on and just keep on chugging. Because after fixing busted WinXP and Vista boxes all day I'm a firm believer in "If it ain't broke,don't fix it" and for me Win2K Pro certainly ain't broke. But that is my 02c,YMMV

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    80. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It figures you're modded flamebait because you correctly point out that style is subjective. Don't you know that facts have no place on slashdot?

    81. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by m0nkyman · · Score: 1

      With Google, you get a simple, fast loading homepage with only a few links, a search box and the Google logo

      remarkably like this:

      http://web.archive.org/web/19961017235908/http://www2.yahoo.com/

      --
      ~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
    82. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by RobertM1968 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I also found the assertion of the GP hilarious

      I use Linux at home and I got to agree that he's living in a fantasy land. Linux has less than 1% of the desktop market last I saw. When at least 10% of the desktops sold have Linux on them, Ill start to believe in Microsoft's death. Hell, their nearest competition is Apple at some 7%

      And at one time, Netscape had a monopoly on web browsers. Sure, it took all sorts of illegal actions on Microsoft's part to obliterate that monopoly, but 8-9 years ago, if you had said that another browser would start to seriously displace Internet Explorer, you'd be laughed out of the room.

      Now Firefox/Mozilla/Netscape are gaining ground monthly - while still battling the "same old" (actions) from Microsoft. At the current rate, Internet Explorer will soon no longer be the browser holding majority marketshare.

      What makes you think that Apple (gaining market share almost monthly) or Linux (slowly gaining market share for most of the months over the past 2 years) will not eventually reach the same point?

      Here's the beauty of it that most people dont think of. For the most part (for the average user) a web browser is a web browser - if it works (and they all do - to at least the extent that the average user needs), then it doesnt matter too much which they use, so why not use the one that their tech/computer saavy friend/some site advertised to them? And in doing so, nothing has to be changed and nothing else needs to be written for it.

      Now, when it comes to computers, Apple is beating the odds in that there are more things available for Windows... but for how much longer? The more market share Apple or Linux or whatever gets, the more stuff that will be written for it. That means less reasons not to switch (added to all of the many reasons cited on /. every day on why people should).

      See the difference? Browser share gains are a relatively flat "curve" because of that... but soon, the OS curve will change from somewhat flat gain by non-Windows, to an actual curve (higher number of people switching each month) for whatever OS starts to truly compete with Windows, simply because as the percentage of users grows, the software to run on the OS will increase, fueling an even larger percentage per month to switch.

      Other things that will help increase that uptake are things like the growing interest in OpenOffice and the growing defection from IE to Firefox or Safari.

      Dont say it wont happen... it already is.

    83. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by x_MeRLiN_x · · Score: 1

      It'll be close to the amount gained by Vista minus the amount lost by Windows 2000 and OS X. Use your brain. Adding Windows XP would have likely made the other trends too flat to be useful. Of course, you could have visited the original source to see that XP had 80.89%-84.48%.

      That graph may or may not be of more use, but I don't believe it gives the impression you think it does. Increase the range and you'll see Microsoft have recovered from far worse down-turns (if indeed that's what's happening - it's certainly not clear cut) in the past.

    84. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, the sad smell of Apple fanbois in Spring

    85. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by strabes · · Score: 1

      Although if MS ever put out an OS that is better than Linux on security, and better than OSX on ease of use and prettiness -- Slashdotters would still decry it. That is a REALLY big "if." Microsoft has had 15 years of consumer-grade operating system releases, with not one having any of the aforementioned characteristics.
      --
      Its = possessive. It's = "it is"
    86. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, you know those hot chicks in school who said "no way I'd go out with you, not even for a billion dollars!"? Well, guess what they'd do for TWO billion dollars?

    87. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      parent missed the point

    88. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      haha good call bro, good call... but games aren't toys, at least according to who you ask. Just like punk is not dead =P

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    89. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      Your arguments for windows are that it is cheap and plays games and then you discredit everything else as toys? I agreed with you all the way up to that final statement. Okay, okay now that I have read your article in it's entirety I shall reply. I warn you though I generally don't visit slashdot this late, I've already got some Old E 800 in me...

      That being said, just because a product is cheap that shouldn't be a reflection on it's quality. And the same can be said of games, just because they are games does not mean they are toys.

      Why where does one draw the distinction from a N64 game like Pilot Wings with a mulit million dollar flight simulation employed by the DOD. At that point the only thing that distinguishes a game from a sim is goals man, goals.

      And that can go right back to Windows... It's not so much that the software is cheap, it's the fact the hardware it runs on can be. Take my system for instance, it's what one could could consider an 'enthusiast' class gaming rig from last year. But aside from the video card (x1800 xt, which wasnt last years card its older, but still does me very well) every component was purchased for under $100USD, most under $70USD.

      In my opinion a mac is a toy, it might be a 1,000USD or a 3,000USD machine. But it's still a toy. One doesn't have access to the vast amounts of hardware and software one does with Windows. That's not to say Mac is an inferior computing platform, its more of an observation of what is available today.
      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    90. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

      According to your statement Games=Toys. I disagree.

      --
      On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
    91. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Rycross · · Score: 1

      Disregarding the fact that Vista and Office 2007 are not as unsuccessful as some Slashdot users would have you believe, what do you think companies and users are buying instead of these products? Linux market share has risen, but not by enough to account for the "awful failure" of Vista. People are still using XP and Office 2003, which means that Microsoft is still getting their money.

    92. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Rycross · · Score: 1

      OK, I have an iPhone and I love the thing, but its not innovative. They took most of the features that I wanted in a phone and gave it an easy to use UI. Thats kind-of a low bar to achieve since Windows mobile is horrible (I can't stand trying to use my boss or girlfriend's phone), but it makes it worth the money, for me. Still, about the only innovative feature was multi-touch which was done before (just not on a phone).

      The fact that the only thing you came up with was that it was stylish (and that iPods are smaller) kinda proves the point. Innovation is about doing things differently.

      Oh and style is both subjective and objective. Some things can be objectively bad, but theres subjectiveness to it too. I've seen some computers and phones that I thought looked slick, which my friends thought were ugly.

      iPhones are way over-hyped. The sooner people realize that the better (if only so people stop asking me about it when I'm just trying to watch a friggen video).

    93. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by mortonda · · Score: 1

      The tech is certainly more complicated than that, and a lot of things have been modified, but it *does* feel very unixish overall. Thus the "BSD with pretty graphics" makes sense to me. It's a close description, if not completely accurate.

      I love my macbook, it's got a great interface but has the power and flexibility of a unix system. I use Linux for all my servers, but for a general use laptop, OS X is wonderful. It's certainly not a toy.

    94. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Kalriath · · Score: 2, Informative

      With Google, you get a simple, fast loading homepage with only a few links, a search box and the Google logo You mean something like this?

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    95. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      Well that's not true. You can install an RPM without an internet connection. Yum is what couldn't install without an internet connection, and even then you could use the the -C option. Both your complaints are against yum. Speed and an internet dep does not really make it miles behind.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    96. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by remmelt · · Score: 1

      > Yes because we all know the only real innovation isn't done in multi-million dollar research centers, it's done in dad's garage, duh!

      Again with this argument, this time in disguise. MS does a lot of cool research and they hire loads of interesting and smart people. None of this is actually ever sold as a product. The closest they are is with the touch screen, which is nice, but when it'll finally come out it won't be very cool or innovative, it'll merely be "neat." At least on that they dropped the ball with regards to time to market.

      My point: if MS has all this R&D and all these millions to fund it, why is Vista all they have to show for it?

      The answer: read the blog about the guy in the Vista shutdown menu development team.

      And that is the point the OP was trying to make. At least MS has become inept with size and age.

      (P.S. if you're trying to have a decent argument, make sure to refrain from patronizing remarks like your last one.)

    97. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In today's inflation, if all I can afford is a hamburger, I'd at least want to get some lettuce on it.

      $1,500,000,000 is a pack of cigarettes right now. By the time he cashes out, it'll be a lighter.

    98. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

      > The thing though with Red Hat (and Fedora) are losing distro
      > marketshare to Ubuntu and other Debian-based distros.

      Redhat doesn't need "distro marketshare". They need *PAYING CUSTOMERS*. I've been using linux since early 2000. I started off with a remaindered copy of Redhat linux 5 point something that came on 2 CDs in a manual at a bookstore. Redhat 7.3 was *THE BEST* end-user distro of its time. But Redhat didn't get too much money off of it. They dumped end-user distro in favour of Fedora, which is a testbed for their enterprise product. Redhat makes its profits off of RHEL (RedHat Enterprise Linux). And they're doing quite well, I might add.

      As someone who got started in linux on Redhat's distro, I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for them. Yes, they may have moved on to "big business", but...
      - they did a helluva lot for linux in the early years
      - they didn't destroy their legacy. No SCOX imitation.

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    99. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by xtracto · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think the multitouch mouse with gestures in personal computers was a first.

      Read that again please :)

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    100. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 1

      Vista is a disaster? Don't buy into the anti-MS hype. At home we've got Vista on 3 computers - a laptop (preinstalled), a desktop (upgraded from XP), and a homebuilt (running Vista 64). We haven't had a single problem on any of the machines, and they play fine on the network with an XP laptop. Speed hasn't been an issue either, even on the older hardware (HT chip, not dual or quad core).

      Just to confirm your thought that I'm an evil moron, I also have parental controls enabled on the kids' computer (yes, 1 computer, 3 kids).

    101. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the Slashdot anti-Microsoft sentiments. Any pro-technology site, especially one oriented toward the Web and the Internet, is going to be inherently 'anti-Microsoft' if only because MS has been against both since finding out (late) about either.
    102. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by blackest_k · · Score: 1

      nobody needs to run microsoft software for all that they do but almost everybody does something which requires windows for them to be able to do it.

      Linux isn't windows and so cannot fully replace it.

      However there are good reasons not to use windows for all the tasks you do on a computer, so linux is going to co-exist alongside windows for a long time.

      It is likely the percentage of pc users that are happy to run linux alongside windows will increase. Virtual machines will get better and make it easier to switch between operating systems as required.

      For me the best blend currently seems to be ubuntu with a vm running windows 2000. Virtualbox has usb support that means even a lexmark printer can be connected and made to work, when required.

      2000 might even be a problem for Microsoft since its largely binary compatible with most windows software and it's light system requirements make it perfect for a vm.

      Microsofts big assault against open document formats, is critical for them they need the inconsistencies that stop our data being fully portable.

      Maybe they will be forced in to a position where they have to support importing and exporting however you can be sure they will do so as slowly as possible.

      Linux isn't going to replace windows, just replace the need to do everything with windows.

    103. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      on cheap hardware the runs reliably and quickly when configured properly lol.

      let me guess - you work for "Get the Facts Right"?
    104. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      But what will happen when Apple has full 'penetration' of their core market?

      When the reserves of the 'pink pound' run dry?

    105. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by TravisO · · Score: 1

      In moron logic, if two wrongs make a right, then two failures make success.

    106. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by aproposofwhat · · Score: 1

      Thankyou for your useful contribution to this discussion~

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
    107. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by prelelat · · Score: 1

      It could happen but I doubt that it will be because peoples tech savi friends convinced them to switch. Most of the people I have suggest switch haven't because they are using a flavor of windows at work. Now I know that I could get them using ubuntu with little to know difference but they don't want to deal with it. The system is just different enough that they don't want to learn two different ways to do something.

      I think if you hit the buisness side of things and start switching alot more companies over you will see a large transition. People want to use what they have at work for the most part because it's familiar. Tech people I know don't want to switch because they use windows at work it's easier than having to dual boot to use that one app that doesn't work in Linux Debian or OSX. I know when I was in school and we were using visual studio I couldn't get it working in wine in redhat. I could have used a text editor or something else but I didn't want to vary from what the school had as a compiler. So I started dual booting, it wasn't long before my copy of red hat hadn't been updated in a year, and they had went enterprise in that time.

      It was anouther 2 years before I started using ubuntu again because I could load it onto my laptop and use it for work as no apps were special for my work place. But thats because I'm a fan of opensource, no one else in my position uses linux or debian releases. Why would they in the corp setting they get their windows software for their work computers under the site license. So most of them use windows at home too.

      My wife works in a research lab at a university and they use macs 90% of the employees and students that use that lab use OSX. It's not a coincidence. Though people who use apples are in a type of cult.

      Thats the catch you have to get people using something else at work and then you will see more of a turn over in people willing and wanting to switch.

    108. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Ambient_Developer · · Score: 0

      Yo, WTF has apple done for software besides osx. What has yahoo? Apple develops hardware products, NOT software, if they developed software products they would have an open platform. The reason OSX is as nice as it is, reason because *ding* its not open. I consistently see apple for hardware innovations, pre-released hardware innovations at that! Not software.. Safari.. uhh great.. another handbag to deal with. The point being is that apple is so cool because its basically googles hardware company, and google is cool for some reason because they drive traffic through their search engine. The great thing is that google doesn't market their products, *at all*. Umm I stand corrected they do through apple.. All in all, I would put my beans in the people that know how to market, and be a real company yahoo.. Though yahoo doesn't know how to make *useful* products as google does. Its like yin and yang. Though I would still put my beans with the salesman, a research company with no salesman is still, *just a research company* [enter google].

    109. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vista's single biggest problem is the fact that "Windows Genuine Advantage" works just a little TOO well for Microsoft's own good.

      The reason for low consumer uptake of Vista has almost nothing to do with bugs, security problems, or annoyances -- all of which were equally abundant in earlier editions of Windows -- and almost everything to do with the fact that people who'll upgrade an old PC to limp along on the newest version of Windows when the direct cost of that upgrade is "free" will NOT do it if it's going to cost $150-250 or more. If you're going to spend half as much as you spent on a computer in the first place to upgrade it to a newer version of Windows, that new copy of Windows had BETTER be flawless, perfect, and perform oral sex upon command to justify it. If you spend $250 to buy a copy of Vista Ultimate, and use it to upgrade Windows on every computer you make bodily contact with, your expectations won't be quite as high or demanding. After install #5 or 6, the cost becomes just a bad memory.

      Go visit the home of any MSDN member... they have unlimited access to the Microsoft candy store (for evaluation purposes only, of course...), and probably have Vista Ultimate installed on every x86 computer they own (many of whose longest period of use in recent months was, in fact, the act of installing Vista). It's not because they're Microsoft-worshippers... it's because for them, everything Microsoft makes IS basically free (as in beer) since their employer probably pays the annual MSDN dues anyway.

    110. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Grashnak · · Score: 1

      if I were a YHOO shareholder, I'd have dumped as soon as the offer hit the table and the stock hit $30. Why on earth would you hold out for $31? Your juvenile grasp of business is probably why you aren't a YHOO shareholder.

      --
      Life needs more saving throws.
    111. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Actually, that would have given a much more accurate picture of the situation. For having the full support of an entrenched monopoly with restrictive and anti-competitive deals with major computer distributions, Vista is doing remarkably poorly.

      However, the poor showing isn't benefiting their competitors all that much.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    112. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 1

      I think the multitouch mouse with gestures in personal computers was a first.
      Read that again please :) Gah, don't know how I missed that. I stand corrected =D
      -
      Brain Cache Full...beginning dump.
    113. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by ablair · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with your mention of Google, but Apple... Really? Like for realsies? Sorry bro, I'm into computers... Not toys. Ballmer... is that you?

    114. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by x_MeRLiN_x · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Stating that Linux and OS X are gaining market share doesn't make it true. I've provided two independent sources (a statistics firm and an open-source-centric developer site) that both contradict you; non-Microsoft OS are losing ground.

      On the desktop, Windows Vista is competing with Windows XP, while Windows 2000 takes third place. OS X and Linux are nowhere. You're deluded.

      Firefox has made impressive progress yes, but you've unwittingly spotted the problem for OS X and Linux; a browser is a browser, but they are nothing like Windows and the competing camps will never be interested in making their offerings more like Windows - and Ihttp://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=572679&cid=23645147#
      Preview believe that's the only possible route to success.

      Microsoft is doing just fine and dandy and I can't see that changing for another decade at least.

    115. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by the_arrow · · Score: 1

      Yahoo's asset is a rapidly diminishing brand and user base.
      It might be so in the western world, but in southeast Asia Yahoo! is still very big.
      --
      / The Arrow
      "How lovely you are. So lovely in my straightjacket..." - Nny
    116. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      I don't mean to be too picky but you do realise that it is june 2008 and having to look all the way back to january 2007 to try and find good numbers for Office 2007 is really pretty sad. So it looks like office 2003 did really bad in the first week as most people could not be bothered from upgrading from office 97/98 or 2000, I seem to recall that being the case. As for Office 2007 it appears like it bombed once people started to realise how many problems the interface changes would cause ie. within a couple of weeks of it's release.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    117. Re:It's like watching ugly people kiss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OSX is just a NEXT system with eye candy. Noting really innovative about it.

  2. Jerry Yang did the right thing by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Funny
    Sure it cost his shareholders billions, sure he's going to lose his job and be sued into oblivion for gross mismanagement, sure he will be lucky to make it out of the shareholder's meeting without being tarred and feathered. But the important thing is that he stood up to Bill Gates, stuck out his tongue, and yelled "I DON'T LIKE YOU!"

    And isn't that what it's all about, folks?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Yeah. That will have been worth it, when in 2010, Yahoo! shareholders realise their $11.00 per share.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Yes, yes it is!

    3. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by exley · · Score: 0

      Sure it cost his shareholders billions, sure he's going to lose his job and be sued into oblivion for gross mismanagement... When you say he "did the right thing" I'm not sure that phrase means what you think it means. Costing shareholders (whom a public company is beholden to) billions and "gross mismanagement" don't exactly sound like the right thing. I don't know either way if the buyout would have been good or bad for Yahoo (who really does?), but the way you put it really doesn't help their case for turning down the offer.

      But the important thing is that he stood up to Bill Gates, stuck out his tongue, and yelled "I DON'T LIKE YOU!" Ah ok, so "doing the right thing" means "acting like a three year old."
    4. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the word "whoosh!" means anything to you?

    5. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I dont think anybody is stupid enough to think that Yahoo would last that long after a Microsoft takeover. As soon as the assets (its users) was migrated to Windows Live or whatever brand is up for the day it would have been dismantled and chopped up to pieces. The only thing Microsoft wanted was a quick way to get some users to its online services since they cannot get anyone to come by themselves.

      Its far better from Yahoos point to get together with Google in the long run. A good partnership could generate new revenues that they themselves cant get alone. For example they together have enough of the online sphere to use as a lever in phones, smartphones and UMPC's and get a real firm foothold in those.

      Killing a company is not in any way in the shareholders best interest. The only interest it serves is those who dont hold them but merely buys and sells them on a daily basis. If companies should take that as their prime interest all a company needs to do is to fire all the staff and sell out all the assets to be successful. It would make China very happy but it wouldnt be fun to be an american for very long.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    6. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Jerry Yang's job isn't to do whats good for Yahoo, it's to do whats good for the share holders. Maybe you forget that they are the people who actually own the company. Yang needs to demonstrate how Yahoo will deliver more than double its January value to it's shareholders.

      That's part of the deal for taking public money, if you don't like the deal don't take the money.

    7. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by God+of+Lemmings · · Score: 1

      I'm sure everyone here realizes that Yahoo is a BSD shop. How many of those people are actually going to stay, knowing that the platform they work on now will eventually be replaced with some release of windows server? How many of those people find themselves ethically obligated not to work for a convicted monopolist? I would expect a huge turnover of their Unix people, especially those who have done primarily Unix their entire career. I'm certain Carl's proxy fight itself is causing a similar problem in itself, and may eventually cause Yahoo a pretty penny in recruiting replacements if they survive.

      --
      Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
    8. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by exley · · Score: 1

      No, someone forced me to check my sense of humor at the door today...

    9. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing by WhoBeDaPlaya · · Score: 1

      I vote to give Jerry Yang /. uid #1 :P

  3. Cry me a river. by SpeedBump0619 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If he had a 'well known' antipathy for Microsoft then it was known when he was hired as CEO. Presumably the board of directors considered it a good thing or they would have hired someone else. Investment is risk. If you can't accept that risk don't invest.

    1. Re:Cry me a river. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he had a 'well known' antipathy for Microsoft then it was known when he was hired as CEO. Presumably the board of directors considered it a good thing or they would have hired someone else.

      Yeah! Who does this guy think he is??? I think the board should just send him right back to the company they got him from!

  4. Public companies by Romancer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Fair warning: Rant

    Public companies are now being run by the shareholders that take out payday loans, refinance their houses so much they owe money when they sell, cannot build traditional savings since all their income is treated as disposable. Basically the get rich generation with no long term goals other than their next big "fix".

    Why does it surprise anybody that the driving force behind these companies is to sell out no matter what the cost to the business, the employees, or even the customers?

    --


    ) Human Kind Vs Human Creation
    ) It'd be interesting to see how many humans would survive to serve us.
    1. Re:Public companies by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Why does it surprise anybody that the driving force behind these companies is to sell out no matter what the cost to the business, the employees, or even the customers?

      And to head off the stream of ignorance about to insist that public companies are legally required to maximize shareholder value, the US Supreme Court has rejected that interpertation. The purpose of a Board of Directors is to protect a company, which it is allowed to view as a collection of relationships between customers, employees, etc. The case that decided this precident was based around rejecting a higher offer to take one that better served the companies culture.

      Your company culture may be "profit maximizing," but don't pretend you can dictate to other companies.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    2. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Public companies are now being run by the shareholders that take out payday loans, refinance their houses so much they owe money when they sell, cannot build traditional savings since all their income is treated as disposable.

      Yep. Shareholders like Carl Icanh. I hear he took a payday loan to buy his yacht and now is behind on the mortgage payments.

    3. Re:Public companies by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The small shareholders, sure. But not the big ones, which comprise the majority of the people who are going to screw over Yang. You think Ichann, or any of the bank managers, mutual fund managers, hedge fund managers, etc. that have holdings in Yahoo are being run by people running to take out payday loans? Doubtful.

    4. Re:Public companies by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 1

      ?

      Yahoo's largest shareholders are corporations of various of various sorts (investment banks, retirement funds, etc) and billionaires. People reliant on payday loans have very little voting stock in Yahoo. For the most part, if there is a proxy fight, it will be because sophisticated corporations and billionaires decided to make it so--any comments from the "peasants" won't make it past the help desk.

    5. Re:Public companies by Dachannien · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, 82% of Yahoo's float is held by institutions and mutual funds.

    6. Re:Public companies by moore.dustin · · Score: 1

      That is an oxy-moron my friend. You lampoon the shareholders of Yahoo as those who, as you said, "...take out payday loans, refinance their houses so much they owe money when they sell, cannot build traditional savings since all their income is treated as disposable. Basically the get rich generation with no long term goals other than their next big "fix"."

      As shareholders of the company, that means they are making an investment(with disposable income mind you), which is what you said they were not capable of doing. So which is it? I would venture to say that the exact opposite of the people you described are the ones that own Yahoo! stock.

    7. Re:Public companies by metlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Welcome to Slashdot to see people who do not have a basic grasp of finance or business to rant about it.

      For one, the majority of shares in most public companies today are held by institutional investors. The next big share holders tend to be PE folks (like Icahn, KKR etc), followed by insurance companies, hedge funds etc.

      Secondly, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you went public, you did it for the money - and you can't cry foul when you do something stupid and when people hold you accountable. If you wanted your freedom, you should have stayed private. Sad, but true.

      Now, one of the biggest advantages of going public is that you raise capital - and when investors put in their money, they expect returns. Now, some people like Icahn are just vultures who are looking for an excuse to make a quick buck, but most other investors are not happy, either, with the way Yahoo handled the situation.

      Like or dislike does not enter business. If it makes business and strategic sense, you do it. If it does not, you don't. If you are interested in discussing morals, ethics and "feelings", you should have kept the company private and done whatever the hell you wanted. I haven't seen anything that indicates that a merger between Yahoo and Microsoft will be a bad thing. It may throw in a little more competition; however I can see why Google is worried - they run the risk of being called a monopoly if Yahoo gets bought out. At the end of the day, once you have shareholders, you have a responsibility to them. You may not like it, but you should have thought of it before you went after the greenbacks.

    8. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget that it's the public that is hurt by microsoft's illegal monopolist practices. Therefore, anyone who doesn't get in bed with them is working FOR the public, not personal interest.

    9. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haha, "You think Ichann, or any of the bank managers, mutual fund managers, hedge fund managers, etc. that have holdings in Yahoo are being run by people running to take out payday loans? Doubtful." ... um, you been following the news the last 20 months pal?

    10. Re:Public companies by db32 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not exactly...many investors are gambling rather than investing.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    11. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      making an investment Sucking the value out of a company for short term gains is like paying for a train ticket from New York to San Francisco, and getting off at St. Louis. Sure, you got somewhere, but now you're in St. Louis. Oh, and you probably could have gotten a better deal with purchasing an instrument that was more in line with where you wanted to go.
    12. Re:Public companies by russotto · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You think Ichann, or any of the bank managers, mutual fund managers, hedge fund managers, etc. that have holdings in Yahoo are being run by people running to take out payday loans?
      No, but they may be run by people who issued sub-prime variable mortgages to people they knew or should have known wouldn't be able to pay if interest rates increased a bit and real-estate prices didn't continue to increase.
    13. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, what you're referring to is the "business judgment rule," which says that the Board's business judgment will not be challenged in court absent a showing of bad faith or being on both sides of a transaction. The Board is *required* to focus on maximizing wealth for the company's owners, i.e., the shareholders. However, under the "business judgment rule," the Board may be able to justify its decision to refuse a higher tender offer in that it better understands the long-term business implications of the company and thinks that not selling will be better off in the long run for shareholders.

    14. Re:Public companies by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Teh surpreme court ruling does not matter.

      The shareholders legally run the company and as such can do whatever they hell they like including firing CEO's who do not sell out for get rich quick schemes.

      You can try to protect the company and what you feel is the best but the shareholders can legally fire you for doing so if they disagree with yoru directions. Actually they fire the board and create a new one who replaces you but still.

      I wish these financial institutions would return to long term growth.

    15. Re:Public companies by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Public companies are now being run by the people who own them and are invested in them


      Fixed your post.
    16. Re:Public companies by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, what you're referring to is the "business judgment rule,"... The Board is *required* to focus on maximizing wealth for the company's owners, i.e., the shareholders.

      No, I'm not. And no, the board is not. Unocal v. Mesa Petroleum established that, for Deleware companies (like Yahoo!), when faced with an unsolicited bid, the board could take into account not only shareholder value, but also the interests of: creditors, customers, employees, and possibly a larger community.

      When the Board throws a "For Sale" sign up, however, it is obligated to take the highest bid.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    17. Re:Public companies by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

      Yep. Shareholders like Carl Icanh. I hear he took a payday loan to buy his yacht and now is behind on the mortgage payments. Not exactly--it's more like he bought a slightly run-down house (Yahoo) using a sub-prime loan with the intention of flipping it, but the city planner (Yang) refused the development permit to do an addition, and now he is upside-down in his mortgage and the only potential buyer (MSFT) keeps reducing his offer.

      That sad sack of Sh!t Carl can go to hell with all the rest of the greedy real-estate speculators who lost their shirts in the subprime meltdown.

    18. Re:Public companies by geekoid · · Score: 0

      And another poster who thinks he knows finance and no one else on /. does, even though you are wrong.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    19. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The shareholders legally run the company and as such can do whatever they hell they like including firing CEO's who do not sell out for get rich quick schemes.

      All batshit irrelevant to the point at hand.

      You can try to protect the company and what you feel is the best but the shareholders can legally fire you for doing so if they disagree with yoru directions. Actually they fire the board and create a new one who replaces you but still.

      Of course you can fire the CEO, but that's not the point, dumbass. It's that you can't sue the CEO just because you think he passed up the chance to make a quick buck.

    20. Re:Public companies by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      The shareholders legally run the company and as such can do whatever they hell they like including firing CEO's who do not sell out for get rich quick schemes

      A proxy fight, battle over control of the company and shifting the future direction? Sure. Suing the Board/CEO for not accepting a past offer? Hardly.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    21. Re:Public companies by slimjim8094 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you think you're right, you gotta do better than "Hah! You're wrong! ..."

      Care to explain where he was mistaken?

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    22. Re:Public companies by Svartalf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed, this is the case- and that's what most people, even the sharesellers, don't seem to get.

      There's a set of specific obligations that a BoD and the Company Execs have to everything- sometimes it's to the shareholders, sometimes it's to the company. Some of the obligations end up overlapping, sometimes they're at odds and you have to actually consider the company, it's employees, etc. FIRST.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    23. Re:Public companies by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      Why does it surprise anybody that the driving force behind these companies is to sell out no matter what the cost to the business, the employees, or even the customers?

      First, do the employees own the company? In fact an employee is like a consultant, there while the service is needed.

      Second, shareholders expect to make money just like employees. Given Yahoo's performance, they had it coming. Now if you believe shareholders should invest and accept to lose money, then I expect you to go to work for them and you pay them for that (lose money).

      But the ones that didn't sell at $30, I don't side with them either. Know when to sell a dog.

    24. Re:Public companies by bit01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you are interested in discussing morals, ethics and "feelings", you should have kept the company private

      Unmitigated nonsense, and typical of bottom feeders who want to rationalize their unethical behavior.

      Making a company public does not mystically give the company directors or shareholders a free pass to act unethically.

      Ethical and other rules apply to people regardless of whether they are participating in a company or not. Companies are just individuals cooperating to achieve common goals and if those individuals are acting ethically then the company is acting ethically also.

      ---

      Marketing talk is not just cheap, it has negative value. Free speech can be compromised just as much by too much noise as too little signal.

    25. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make it sound like this is a new thing. There are always get rich quick schemes, whether they be in tulips, goldrushes, railroad bonds, stocks as a whole in the 20's, techs in the 90's, real estate in the 00's... human nature doesn't change.

      Casinos have been making money long before the "get rich quick" generation came around.

    26. Re:Public companies by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      Yep. Shareholders like Carl Icanh. I hear he took a payday loan to buy his yacht and now is behind on the mortgage payments. Not exactly--it's more like he bought a slightly run-down house (Yahoo) using a sub-prime loan with the intention of flipping it, but the city planner (Yang) refused the development permit to do an addition, and now he is upside-down in his mortgage and the only potential buyer (MSFT) keeps reducing his offer. That sad sack of Sh!t Carl can go to hell with all the rest of the greedy real-estate speculators who lost their shirts in the subprime meltdown.

      Yes, anyone who tries to purchase a commodity and sell it for profit deserves eternal damnation. All excess capital should be put into a government controlled "fund", like social security. Down with profits!

      --

      -Turkey

    27. Re:Public companies by j-turkey · · Score: 1

      If you think you're right, you gotta do better than "Hah! You're wrong! ..." Care to explain where he was mistaken? You must be new here. ;)
      --

      -Turkey

    28. Re:Public companies by ed.markovich · · Score: 1

      Public companies are now being run by the shareholders that take out payday loans, refinance their houses ...

      84% of Yahoo stock is held by institutional investors, mutual funds, company insiders, and people who own 5% or more of the firm. Which one of these demographics do you think is taking out payday loans?

    29. Re:Public companies by slimjim8094 · · Score: 1

      Hey - since UID 1000000, anyone under it is an old fart :)

      But I got nothing on you

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    30. Re:Public companies by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      shareholders expect to make money

      If they expected to make money, they should have bought a stock that was paying dividends or had some other tangible benefit that would lead a rational person to expect to receive more than they spent on it, instead of hoping that their stock would win a popularity contest. Or maybe they should have just put the money in the bank or bought a savings bond.

      Now if you believe shareholders should invest and accept to lose money

      Or what? Should the government bail them out? It's called risk. If you can't accept it, don't play.

      then I expect you to go to work for them and you pay them for that (lose money).

      You know what? As an employee, I have risk too: that the board and stockholders run the company into the ground so far that my paycheck doesn't even bounce back out of the hole. By staying in a given job I also risk that my income may not rise as rapidly as inflation has (lose buying power).

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    31. Re:Public companies by dpb42 · · Score: 1

      Secondly, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you went public, you did it for the money - and you can't cry foul when you do something stupid and when people hold you accountable. If you wanted your freedom, you should have stayed private. Sad, but true. Perhaps you can have it both ways if you have Dual-class shares.
    32. Re:Public companies by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      The small shareholders took out subprime loans and payday loans to live beyond their means. The large shareholders took out large loans secured by CDOs, which got resold and resold.... both operated with rules that basically worked the same way - with no oversight. The reason the credit crunch got so bad is because EVERYBODY was doing the high-risk loan crap. Do you know what a leveraged buy-out is? It's when you borrow money to buy a company, with the hope that when you sell the company in small pieces, you'll get more money back than you borrowed. The housing crises, the loan crises, it's all the same crap.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    33. Re:Public companies by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      If it makes business and strategic sense, you do it.

      That's the thing, it doesn't make business or strategic sense. The only people to whom the MS/Yahoo acquisition makes sense is large Yahoo shareholders who do not depend on the existence of Yahoo to make money. To everybody else with a stake in Yahoo, an acquisition would be a disaster.
      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    34. Re:Public companies by gtall · · Score: 1

      "nvestment banks, retirement funds, etc", yes, and these are the very same institutions and funds that are neck deep in risky mortgages. They simply view Yahoo as a way to cover their bad loans. They figured it was easy money with M$ on the prowl for anything short of innovation to compete against Google. Yahoo's customers, employees, management are merely cannon fodder.

      Gerry

    35. Re:Public companies by 12345Doug · · Score: 1

      Truly isn't everything just a gamble. I gambled that I would get hit by a car and die on my way to work. The payoff is that I have a job and income. If you want to look that way, gambling is at the heart of every decision you make. You are gambling that the outcome will be better for making that decision (and acting on it) than for sitting still and not doing anything (which is still a decision and act). Basically everyone gambles every day of their lives. I guess I should hit the next GA meeting.

    36. Re:Public companies by db32 · · Score: 1

      From the wiki: Gambling has a specific economic definition, referring to wagering money or something of material value on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods.

      Everything involves calculated risks though. When you are investing you are researching, moving money, and so on. When you throw money at the market and hope for the best you are gambling.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    37. Re:Public companies by Jor-Al · · Score: 1
      Did you even bother to read the next sentence they wrote before you got yourself all worked up over trying to prove them wrong?

      However, under the "business judgment rule," the Board may be able to justify its decision to refuse a higher tender offer in that it better understands the long-term business implications of the company and thinks that not selling will be better off in the long run for shareholders.
    38. Re:Public companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many != most.

      Not by a long shot. Institutional investors certainly are not, PE, hedge funds, and then the tiny, tiny slice that are day traders do engage in some gambling.

    39. Re:Public companies by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

      Yes, anyone who tries to purchase a commodity and sell it for profit deserves eternal damnation. All excess capital should be put into a government controlled "fund", like social security. Down with profits! Corporations are not commodities, but anyways...No need to go through the trouble of gettin gthe gov't involved, the free market will damn him to hell all on its own eventually--it nearly did when the junk bond craze bit him in the ass in the 80s.

      Anyways, enjoy your $4/gal gas, courtesy of commodity speculators. Don't worry though, that bubble will too deflate and cause a few billions in writedowns, and that ought to right things again.
  5. No by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's about taking your January share price of $19 and doubling it into $40 over the course of a few short months, not to mention your shareholders, and perhaps most importantly vested employees. Sure, Jerry has a lot of cash with or without Microsoft but employees with shares could literally double their investments overnight with this deal. I'm sure theres a good bit of internal angst.

    People used to speak of Microsoft Millionaires, this could have made a few Yahoo Millionaires. Chances are Ichann will get a shot to do what Jerry should have done.

    1. Re:No by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People used to speak of Microsoft Millionaires, this could have made a few Yahoo Millionaires. Chances are Ichann will get a shot to do what Jerry should have done.
      Maybe Yang thinks he can do better without someone buying him out. Yang, and other members of the Board, are not obligated 'maximize shareholder value at all costs'.

      In the long run, their goal is to make the company profitable. The more profitable, the more shareholder value is improved. Usually this coincides with maximizing shareholder value, but not always.

      In the end, if the voting shareholders feel Yang isn't doing a good enough job by making choices they don't agree with (like sticking his tongue out at Bill Gates and Microsoft), then they can all vote him off the island, so to speak.

      No, I doubt Icahn will get anywhere. It isn't Icahn's personal call whether or not Yang made the right call, it is the votes of all those holding voting stock.
    2. Re:No by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Follow the news, it's not that hard.

      It's not just Ichann. It's several managers of several mutual/hedge funds, several of which tend to be quiet and not meddle in the affairs of boards and the like. They just want a steady ROI. But this was just too much. You might just find a significant enough coalition of major shareholders to oust the board.

      And read my other post. Yahoo's stock price climaxed at $41 post-bubble, and has been sliding steadily downhill ever since. He can talk all day, but Yang hasn't shown he can turn the ship around until he's forced to. And at that, since Microsoft's offer is withdrawn, the price is still creeping downward. All talk, no game.

    3. Re:No by alexhard · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually profits don't play into it at all. The simply reason for that is that profit doesn't take into account the opportunity cost and time value of capital. He really does have to maximise shareholder value.

      --
      Infinite time means everything that can happen, will. You being you is absolutely incidental. You do not exist.
    4. Re:No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the long run, their goal is to make the company profitable. The more profitable, the more shareholder value is improved. Usually this coincides with maximizing shareholder value, but not always. So, improving and maximising shareholder value isn't the same, and you can actually worsen shareholder value by maximising it? I'm getting a headache.
    5. Re:No by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      That's why I never want to be at the helm of a publicly traded company or have one undergo an IPO. You can be nice all you want, once you have shareholders you're obliged to do whatever is neccessary to increase their stock's value. I can't think of a more dreadful thing to happen to a company.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    6. Re:No by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      Only in the short term. When you use the share value for the only metric and the only way to extract value out of your investment in a company, all you have is sharesellers which precipitates things that are clearly unsustainable and while they increase short term valuation, they eventually deep-six the company or actually lower the shareholder value over time.

      I suspect that selling to MS would have been one of those "conflicting" goals type things.

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    7. Re:No by um...+Lucas · · Score: 1

      I think Yahoo just projected (post-microsoft deal) that they are anticipating 10-12% annual growth after 2008.

      At $19 per share (pre-MSFT announcement), it would have taken the better part of a decade for yahoo to reach the value that Microsoft was offering. Even at the post-merger offer, the stock is only being buoyed by the hope that Icahn scares the Yahoo board into taking a deal. But even at the $26.00 price it now hovers near, it'll take 2 years after 2008 to reach the value that Microsoft offered most recently.

      I have a feeling when its all said and done, Microsoft is going to end up taking a big chunk of Yahoo and pay far less than the premiums they've offered so far.

      Yes, the duty of the Board is to maximize shareholder value, and if they think that they trully can provide a better offer than microsoft, they should have put it to a special shareholder vote and let the actual owners of the company weigh each parties argument.

    8. Re:No by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Thanks. Couldn't have said it better myself! :)

      To simplify for those who still don't get it: Maximizing shareholder value in the short term is about driving the stock price, but in the long game, the main things that affect a companies stock price are earnings per share (profit) and the current and quick ratios that measure liquidity (essentially, a measurement of a company's ability to pay off short-term debts). A significant trend of stock gains contrary to these financial ratios usually indicate a stock that is overvalued (what happened during to dot-com bubble) -- time to sell. Similarly, aa significant trend of stock drops contrary to these financial ratios usually indicate a stock that is undervalued (time to buy).

      Stock holder value actually has little to do with stock price, except in the long term. Stock holder value (equity) is actually a calculation performed by taking a company's net assets and subtracting it from the companies' net liabilities. In the the long term, the stock price trend -- after factoring out market trends such as the indexes -- will tend to follow the same trend as the net equity.

      There you go. Now you know everything you need to know to make a gazillion dollars on the stock market (Almost :-P)

  6. "These go to $31." by zooblethorpe · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think people are being way too slow to jump the sinking ship here - if I were a YHOO shareholder, I'd have dumped as soon as the offer hit the table and the stock hit $30. Why on earth would you hold out for $31?

    Well, since you asked why:

    Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one higher, isn't it? It's not $30. You see, most blokes, you know, will be selling at $30. You're on $30 here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on $30 in your portfolio. Where can you go from there? Where?
    Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
    Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
    Marty DiBergi: Hold out for $31.
    Nigel Tufnel: 31. Exactly. One higher.

    Maybe not too far off the mark...

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:"These go to $31." by Itchyeyes · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is that in the time that they're holding out for $31, they could have reinvested their proceeds from selling at $30 and earned even more.

  7. or do it because its the right thing? by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

    Yahoo isn't going away. Its better for everyone in the long haul in terms of overall wealth creation to have both Yahoo and Microsoft alive. If you don't like it, hedge and buy both stocks. I'm sick of seeing investors want money NOW, and so they kill their golden goose. But these days its not surprising.

    --
    I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    1. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by nguy · · Score: 1

      Its better for everyone in the long haul in terms of overall wealth creation to have both Yahoo and Microsoft alive.

      Really? What do we need Microsoft for? Why not replace both with the next generation Internet and OS company?

    2. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yahoo isn't going away. I hope it doesn't. The world always needs an example of what happens when a company refuses to die.

      It's like a fifty year old woman that dresses like a teenager. It's funny, yeah, but... a part of you feels so damn sad for her.
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    3. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Really? What do we need Microsoft for? Why not replace both with the next generation Internet and OS company? Miccrosoft are a classic example of "what happens when a company has a monopoly". I strongly doubt Google getting a monopoly on Internet search and advertising would be a good thing. Whether the competition happens to be Ballmer's Flying Chairs, Inc. or some other company I really don't care - but there has to be real competition.
    4. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simply because they aren't going to die or disappear anytime soon. It might be better to have replacements, but if this deal were to go through and take down both companies, I think Google would be likely to fill much of the void left by them, which although I don't dislike Google, I don't see as a good thing.

    5. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by nguy · · Score: 1

      Simply because they aren't going to die or disappear anytime soon.

      That's circular reasoning.

      It might be better to have replacements

      We do: Linux and Google.

      I think Google would be likely to fill much of the void left by them, which although I don't dislike Google, I don't see as a good thing.

      Google has done none of the kind of harm that Microsoft has done to the industry.

    6. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

      Google makes its money off of internet advertising, and they have less than 50% market share in internet advertising.

      Microsoft has long held over 95% market share in OS, and likely the same in Office Suites.

      One of these two is a massive monopoly who breaks the law and destroys competition. The other embraces open standards and has never directly attacked the competition.

      I keep seeing a bunch of Google backlash because of their size, but perhaps we should judge them by their actual record instead.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    7. Re:or do it because its the right thing? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I keep seeing a bunch of Google backlash because of their size, but perhaps we should judge them by their actual record instead. I appreciate what you're driving at, and I accept that Google have got where they are through being good at what they do. And right now, things aren't looking too bad.

      I just don't have a lot of optimism that this will continue should Google significantly increase their market share.
  8. He did something far worse than that... by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    .... He made a long-term decision instead of thinking about short-term profits. He's being sued for looking beyond the next few quarters.

    If you think Yahoo can't turn it around, then yeah. He fucked up big-time. But if you think (as I'm sure he does) that Yahoo can be an innovative company that can step in to fill the gap as Microsoft declines, then he did the right thing. Hardly matters either way though. (Some profit now > Lots of profit over time) in the eyes of wall street.

    1. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did he even take the offer to the shareholders? That question is going to feature prominently in this case, I think you will see...

      Basically, yes he may have been doing 'a good thing' by blowing Microsoft off, but did he go about it in the right way? Was the offer rejected unilaterally or were the owners of the company, the shareholders, allowed any say in the matter? From what I can see, no they were not.

    2. Re:He did something far worse than that... by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Look at their 10 year trend here.

      They peaked at $100 a share before the bubble popped. Fair enough. Steadily rose to $41 back in 2005. Nice. But now look at the trend - steady decline ever since. Clip off 2008 to remove Microsoft's influence and the trend is even more severe. Yahoo's stock price is dying. Jerry can flap his wings and talk till he passes out about raising the value of Yahoo, but he wasn't doing it for the three years up till now, why is it magically going to occcur now? Microsoft was their best shot at creating shareholder value.

    3. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Reverend528 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Clearly google is a biased source.

    4. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 1

      Yahoo's stock price is dying. And netcraft confirms it... *ducks*
      --
      Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
    5. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Znork · · Score: 1

      But now look at the trend - steady decline ever since

      Microsoft barely looks any better tho.

      Microsoft was their best shot at creating shareholder value.

      In the same way as selling in Nov 07 or during the actual offer would have created value for the selling shareholders? You don't necessarily get redo's in stock trading.

      There's a reason Microsofts stock dropped on the offer. There's a reason Ballmer was, I suspect, forced by the board to drop the bid. Much as I'd find it amusing to see Microsoft lose an investment of that size, a whole lot of shareholders in both companies obviously thought it would have been a very bad deal for both of them, most likely ending up with both customers and employees moving away from the joined company. Apart from temporarily getting to pretend to be more of a serious contender in googles field, there is little long term shareholder value in this deal.

      Placating Ballmers ego, while perhaps safest around furnished rooms, may not necessarily be the best business decision.

      People who wanted to sell at, or near, Microsoft's offer had the chance to do so until the offer was dropped (heck, they still can; iirc, the offer was 50% cash 50% stock, and with the way Microsoft's stock is moving, by the time the deal had been approved they'd have been glad to get $20-$25 actual money for their stock; I'd imagine the sales pressure from a significant fraction of yhoo owners with no interest in being msft owners would depress the stock even more, something which Icahn and other's who'll dump the stock as soon as they can aren't likely to change).

    6. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Tranzistors · · Score: 1

      Lets look at examples

      As we can clearly see, this company was hopelessly doomed in '73 and '88 was sure death. I wonder whatever happened to them...

    7. Re:He did something far worse than that... by WebCowboy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Clearly google is a biased source. Okay then, here is another source for balance.

      Wonder of the litigious YAHOO shareholders ever see past their own noses too...

    8. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Try comparing it to MS's share price. They are doing better than MS over the same period. Not spectacular, but well enough.

    9. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Darkness404 · · Score: 1

      Hmmm... Could it be that IBM *gasp* innovated and adapted to the changing environment again and again? Something that MS/Yahoo never have done? IBM went from punch-card machines, to computers, from proprietary OSes to supporting Linux in full. All MS seems to have done is "Oh the Mac has a GUI lets copy it and put it on DOS!" and Yahoo is more like "Oh Google added a new feature, we will copy that, add a few banner ads, and a ton of Flash and put it online!". Face it, IBM innovates and adapts in a way that MS and Yahoo can't even comprehend.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    10. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      A bird in the hand...

    11. Re:He did something far worse than that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Jerry can flap his wings and talk till he passes out about raising the value of Yahoo, but he wasn't doing it for the three years up till now, why is it magically going to occcur now?"

      I'll agree it doesn't look good, but can't companies have 2 or 3 bad years while the make internal changes and develop new strategies, then make a comeback? I'm sure that must have happened a number of times in business history. . .

      I'm sorry, but unless the company was on the verge of bankruptcy, 3 years doesn't sound like that long of a time to me.

      Also, got a trendline for Yahoo revenue/profit/loss? To me revenue and profit/loss are MUCH more interesting than share price. Because, you know, companies are NEVER either Overvalued or Undervalued by the stock market. Honestly, stock price is not the truest measure of a company's worth - just the public's *perception* of it's worth.

      The only ways to make money on the stock market is to either buy undervalued companies, or short overvalued companies. The whole premise of the stock market is that the market is almost never completely right in valuing a company.

  9. Only Bad if it's against shareholder interests by weston · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft who acted out of a personal interest to keep Yahoo independent. Something wrong with that? Oh, yeah... public company.

    There's nothing wrong with acting in personal interests if there's a reasonable argument that it coincides with shareholder interests. And in this case, there certainly is.

    Look at Google's value. Which companies are in any position at all to grab any significant share of what they're doing in the market? It's a short list. Yahoo's on it.

    If you were holding onto a significant chunk of one of those companies, would you want to (a) sell it now for a quick but small profit or (b) figure out what changes you need to make in the company to have it better compete with Google and acquire value on that level?

    Some shareholders might choose a. But b is certainly reasonable.

    Frankly, so is the Microsoft antipathy. People like to talk as if the haters are just irrational folks who got up on the anti-MS side of the bed. Nevermind that there's a significant real technical and business history that would make any sane and competent person wary of them.

    The web as a platform is open and expanding. Windows as a platform is stagnating and closed. Which do you want to be invested in for the next 10 years?

    1. Re:Only Bad if it's against shareholder interests by syrrys · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It seems to me that many of you do not have your fingers on the pulse of the day to day users in a corporate enviornment. That is why you fail to see why companies use, and will continue to use, Windows as a base OS for their client systems. It works just fine for what these users need to do. It does not "break" as often as you would like it to, or believe it to break. Sorry, get over it. How many of you support over 1000 Windows based systems in a corporate enviornment. (I bet I'm one of the very few with my hand up right now). If you did then you would understand why those ranting about how quickly Windows is on its way along with the dodo are clearly high on Dust Off. Seriously, talk about an emotional, irrational response. And yeah, I know I'm posting from a hotmail account. Does that invalidate my point now? Yahoo will pay dearly for missing the M$ boat. haha.

      --
      "Patience is not a virtue, it's a waste of time."
    2. Re:Only Bad if it's against shareholder interests by rhsanborn · · Score: 1

      You're exactly right, and that is why shareholders probably wouldn't win a lawsuit for negligent management. But, the direction of the company is dictated by the shareholders. We're about to find out whether the shareholders agree with the rejection of Microsoft's offer or not. There are significant benefits to going public, capital being one of them, but that those benefits aren't free.

    3. Re:Only Bad if it's against shareholder interests by mckinnsb · · Score: 1

      The web as a platform is open and expanding. Windows as a platform is stagnating and closed. Which do you want to be invested in for the next 10 years?

      Goooood point. This is where Yahoo has a lot of value that others seem to not be noticing - web application development. They possess a highly trained staff capable of engineering web frameworks and are ready to use them. Yahoo has YUI , as an example (this is the most ready-to-tongue for me). They also have many different operational websites with a wide variety of functionality. They have essentially "done it all". Sure, Yahoo Video! isn't as popular as YouTube, but Yahoo has *done* it. That can be everything in (anything) application development. Consider the possibility that Yahoo (if you consider it as a singular entity) never made Yahoo Video! or Yahoo Mail for the *singular purpose* of becoming the center of the webmail/web video revolution, but hedged its bets by justifying the maneuver as "practice" preparing for a "web application revolution", and you might begin to understand.

      Microsoft, on the other hand, doesn't really have much in the way of non-proprietary web development technology (OK, Atlas) that operates easily underneath other browsers or operating systems. IE7 is the *worst* browser to develop for, without any question, and developers don't want to develop on it if given a choice. With a new JavaScript engine on the way for Android and Safari (and it might make it onto other browsers as well), consider the fact that Microsoft has nearly abandoned Javascript for other proprietary technologies it owns (IE7 was not much of an improvement over IE6 in terms of its JavaScript Engine as there are still memory leaks all over the place, compared to FireFox, Opera, and Safari which all run JavaScript beautifully in comparison) - and that JavaScript, while initially spurned, is becoming more popular as the "mistakes" in the language are ironed out through practice, revision and extremely well written frameworks (it is also standardized unlike Flash or Silverlight), and you begin to understand why Microsoft would want Yahoo.

      You also begin to understand why Yahoo's board is so confident that they don't need - or want - to deal with Microsoft. People still use their search engine - and they may regain some of that market - but that isn't where their real bet is. They are betting on the web browser becoming a viable application platform , one that people will increasingly turn to. Who will companies turn to when they need a web application that will run across any operating system, any recent browser, without any add-ons, plug-ins or extra installation? Why write something that will only work on one operating system, when you can write it to work with a medium (browser)? That was the idea of Java - it never really took off on the client side, but Yahoo, Google, and others are banking that it will, and soon. Why worry about host computer configuration? Hell, why worry about an Operating System? Imagine an operating system that is just a browser. We already have things like this. Imagine these things being absolutely everywhere, and used by nearly everyone.

      The answer to the question "How do you beat a company with a near-monopoly on Operating Systems?", is "Remove the Operating System". It's something that Netscape , Sun, and other companies past and present have dreamed of for a long time.

      So who will these new companies turn to to develop their web application? Most likely, Google , Yahoo, or the people over at Facebook. They are moving on from the search engine/social networking game. They are all positioned to become HUGE web software companies.
  10. Save Zimbra! by bogaboga · · Score: 1

    What hurts me most about this Microsoft/Yahoo deal is what would happen to Zimbra. I fear the worst. Can someone tell me any serious contender to Zimbra that is just as good and free?

    1. Re:Save Zimbra! by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      POP3 and Squirrelmail.

      Enjoy :)

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    2. Re:Save Zimbra! by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I can see how POP3 relates to Exchange, but c'mon, Squirrelmail is quality.

    3. Re:Save Zimbra! by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

      I'm actually a big Exchange fan, though I know people here will have me tarred and feathered for saying that.

      It's open source though. There's no reason why somebody else can't pick up the slack and start the development on it if Microsoft decides to kill it off. That, more than anything would show the success and power of open source.

      --
      The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    4. Re:Save Zimbra! by leamanc · · Score: 1

      Zimbra is now offering a perpetual license. Previously, they only offered licenses that had to be renewed every year, which gave many potential customers worry about what would happen after a MS takeover.

      If this is a concern for you, you can now buy a license that never expires. MS couldn't do anything about it.

      The fact of the matter is that Zimbra has a large customer base now. A year or 18 months ago, MS could have bought Yahoo and just shut Zimbra down. But they have a ton of universities, ISPs, and other big entities among their customers now. It would be in MS's interest (or someone else's if MS doesn't want to deal with it) to take on Zimbra's business.

      It's still a little unnerving until this is all settled, but there is a good option now.

      --
      :q!
    5. Re:Save Zimbra! by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Exchange is open source? What's the license?

  11. He did the right thing by Trogre · · Score: 0

    Any course of action that increases Microsofts monopoly in any market is, by definition, a bad thing.

    Kudos to Mr Yahoo for stopping this. Now I wonder if Facebook, Myspace and Amazon would do the same.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    1. Re:He did the right thing by Warll · · Score: 1

      Any course of action that increases Microsofts monopoly in any market is, by definition, a bad thing. Microsoft does not have a monopoly on search. So while I'm sure alot of us here will agree with you that we don't want to see a stronger Microsoft, it would be wrong to use that argument in this context.
  12. Right thing for employees. by Odder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yahoo would not have survived to 2009 if all it's employees quit. That's why Yang made sure $2 billion of the purchase price would go to employee severance plans. There's probably been some disruption anyway. Wouldn't you have a resume on the street with all of the FUD and BS being flung? The severance plans gave employees a reason to stick around and be fired by M$, or just keep on working if the deal fell through.

    Painting this to be a personal thing by Yang is nuts. Yahoo and M$ were getting along famously until M$ decided to launch a hostile takeover.

    1. Re:Right thing for employees. by umofomia · · Score: 2, Informative

      Painting this to be a personal thing by Yang is nuts. Yahoo and M$ were getting along famously until M$ decided to launch a hostile takeover.
      Microsoft never launched a hostile takeover. A hostile takeover means bringing the offer to the shareholders directly, which they never did. All Microsoft did was bring their offer to Yahoo's board, which is what any other company would do if they were interested in buying them. Apparently this latest news indicates that Yang decided to not even negotiate. Though there were rumors that Microsoft might go hostile after the board negotiations broke down, it never happened.
  13. hmmm. by WindBourne · · Score: 0

    trading stock of Yahoo for stock of MS? I think that I would rather have Yahoo. Yahoo is much more likely to expand into new areas and expand. MS already had as much as they could get and are headed for a massive shrinkage. Yahoo, by working with Google, will come out ahead. Look at what Gates did for Apple by helping them back when keeping them around helped the monopoly issue that MS has.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  14. Carl Icahn's role in this... by swordgeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I hope everyone realises that Carl Icahn isn't a long-term shareholder upset with how the company is being run. He thought he could run it better when Jerry Yang rebuffed MS, and AS A RESULT, bought a significant number of shares. In other words, he bought into the company for the sole purpose of getting Yang tossed out.

    In the world of billionaires, not always the most friendly of folks, Icahn is about as pleasant as a rabid shark with PMS. If he gets his way, he'll install a new board, sell Yahoo to MS at $40, help gut the company, and then leave with a few more dollars in his pockets. Yahoo staff will be out of work, the search engine market will become a battle of two titans, and basically everyone will lose except for Carl and his board.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by Deagol · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Wait a sec... Yahoo is a search engine? I thought it was an entertainment hub or sorts. I mean, sure, it *was* a search engine, back in the days when Lycos was it's primary competitor, complete with a lean, clean front page almost as nice as Google's. Now that I think about it, MSN isn't a search engine, either -- just another entertainment hub.

      Of course, Google has started down the path of crapware bloat w/ its acquisition of YouTube. At least its front page is still an honest-to-goodness search engine, with clean interface and clean results.

    2. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by cyphercell · · Score: 1
      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    3. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      Here you go. Nice and clean:
      Yahoo's search page.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    4. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by Robert1 · · Score: 1

      This is very very true. I think Warren Buffet even made a comment about how fucked up the short term investment shit has gotten. He's a more traditionalist who invests long term into growing companies in which he sees potential. It's also why he's the richest man in the world. Anyway, his comment was basically that Icahn's intervention will result in absolutely nothing changing except making Icahn a couple million bucks. I think we can take that one step further and agree that it would also lay off a bunch of people and utterly destroy a business.

      On a tangential rant, its somewhat sickening that some rich asshole can come in and destroy a viable multiBILLION dollar company, ruin countless people's lives, have negative repercussions for the rest of the industry, and do it all for his own personal benefit.

    5. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      Not the main page. Just a liiiitle bit of a difference, especially considering that about five people will use that instead of www.yahoo.com.

    6. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the search engine market will become a battle of two titans, and basically everyone will lose except for Carl and his board.

      But what if some of those out of work Yahoo employees take their ideas they've been throwing around and start a different kind of search company?

      I mean, we all know that never in the history of internet search has a small startup that no one has ever heard of come and upset the titans in the industry. All it takes is a better product from a different point of view and today's titans are tomorrow's vulture opportunities.

    7. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A hidden page. Yawn. Get back to me when they have the balls to make this clean page the front page.

    8. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by BgJonson79 · · Score: 1

      Then we should all vote to get those laws changed, huh?

      Isn't that how democracy works?

      --

      There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.

    9. Re:Carl Icahn's role in this... by Chapter80 · · Score: 1
      let's see.. it's accessible FROM the home page. There's a search box ON the web page. In fact, if you click the Search button (with nothing in the box), you go right to search.yahoo.com. And it's accessible with a well known URL (just because you didn't know it doesn't mean it's not well known) - shoot, *I* knew about it! And it's accessed from browser search from the toolbar (or whatever you call that, in the upper right of your browser, typically).

      Sounds like a reasonable search engine to me. Just because they are not willing to throw away all their assets and creativity and COPY off of Google (and then face the wrath of shit they'd got for that move), doesn't mean they're not a search engine.

  15. 'shareholders' by unity100 · · Score: 1

    unfortunately they are the most damaging factor for the vision and progress of any company.

    1. Re:'shareholders' by lintux · · Score: 1

      What especially sickens me is that this "mister Icahn" dude wasn't even a Yahoo! shareholder at the time this whole soap started. As far as I know he bought a shitload of shares less than a month ago and apparently this means he can start messing with things that happened before he got involved.

      Maybe this really is how this whole "public company" thing works, but IMHO it's retarded.

    2. Re:'shareholders' by OakLEE · · Score: 2, Informative

      unfortunately they are the most damaging factor for the vision and progress of any company.

      Really?

      Shareholders give companies money to expand, grow, and operate. More over they do it during times when the company cannot raise money through bank or debt issuances. In fact the restrictions a company takes on when taking out a loan are often much more onerous then the messiest of shareholder revolts.

      Have you ever tried to start up a business? Do it, and try to get a loan before you've even set up shop. You'll be laughed out of almost every bank you go to, and if you do get a loan you'll probably be paying 500 basis points (5%) over prime. It's much less onerous to give up some control of your company to outside shareholders for their cash. At least then you don't have the exorbitant interest charges (and other potential restrictions) that come with taking out a loan.

      Now specifically about Yahoo, Yahoo did not have to offer its stock publicly. If Jerry Yang wanted to run Yahoo like his personal dominion he didn't have to sell 2.6 million shares to the public in 1996 (plus the countless other secondary offerings Yahoo made). He could have retained control, but he chose take the shareholder's money and the many headaches that came along with it.
      --
      The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
    3. Re:'shareholders' by Forbman · · Score: 1

      Shareholders give companies money to expand, grow, and operate.

      Only when shares are initially offered to the market, such as in an IPO. The company that issued the shares does not benefit from the ongoing trading of those shares.

      Mr. Yang benefits at some point due the value of the shares he owns, but until he sells his shares (like anyone else), it's all on paper.

      Try to get a loan? Hmm... I'm going to guess that most businesses start out small, funded by some sort of personal cash or credit. Once they have some money flow, and seem to be making some profit, they reach for more money...

      I suppose I'm in an odd situation. I live on a farm, where the farmer runs it as a cash operation, no operating loans, no supplier loans, property is paid off, etc. Kind of rare these days. Sure, he doesn't have fancy new John Deere tractors like most of the other neighboring farmers do. But he's not beholden to the bank...

      Now, could I just up and do one day what he's been doing the last 20-30 years? No. Would take about $2-5 million to get established on a 300-500 acre grass seed farm. That would give me about 2-4 years probably to eke a profit out of it.

      And, like you said, chances are, no bank will give me the coin to do that. US FDA loans won't help, either. Unless I've got some sort of experience doing it already, that duck won't fly.

      And that would probably require doing something extra off the farm as well. I know someone else who is making as much from running 1-3 semi trucks hauling various ag products (mill fines, brewery leftovers, etc) around the pacific NW, as he does from farming, but it keeps the whole enterprise profitable.

  16. Something wrong with that? NO. by bluephone · · Score: 1

    Yeah, it's a public company, but if he really feels it's in the best interest of Yahoo's long term survival to stay independent from Microsoft (which it is) then YES it is ok he turned them down. He has NOT neglected his fiduciary duty to the company merely because this won't give Yahoo a big boost NOW. By looking out for the long term viability of the company he has an even STRONGER argument in his defense, because next quarter's numbers are irrelevant if the company folds, or is turned into a ghost of their former glory as a subsidiary, and his shareholders get crap in the end. I applaud him for NOT giving into the lethal tendency of business in this county to only look at next quarter's numbers, and instead do what's right for his company's (and thus shareholder's) long term interests. I'll gladly give up $40 a share now if it means I'll be worth 50 or 60 a share later. Just because most people wouldn't these days doesn't make them right.

    --
    jX [ Make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. - Einstein ]
    1. Re:Something wrong with that? NO. by justinlee37 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but what is the likelihood that Yahoo! will ever be worth that? Do you really think that they can meaningfully compete with Google in the long-term? What you are talking about is increasing your risk. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, as they say. Maybe Yahoo!'s stockholders don't want to increase their risk right now -- after all, there is a banking crisis going on and federal accounting methods still don't have a reliable way to keep track of the risks assumed by credit derivatives.

      Stop and consider that it is possible that selling the company would be the best long-term move -- maybe Yahoo!'s stockholders would rather pull their money out of Yahoo! now and put it into rental properties while they're still cheap, since the housing bubble recently burst with all of the mortgage write-downs from the investment banks.

  17. I mostly agree, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If apple were listening to its customers, it would be building open systems with less DRM.

    And Office is a *major* asset for Microsoft.

  18. Don't discount Office. by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Honestly I don't see people getting sick of Windows, there is no alternative on low end machines that people will flock to because there is no software for them. It is human nature to complain and the biggest target is Microsoft. I use Windows and OS X at home. I am strictly restricted to XP or NT at work on PCs. It doesn't get in my way, it doesn't do anything wrong. If anything the same problem I have with OS X I have with Windows; OS X handles it better; and that is bad software. Hell even my iMac wasn't immune to bad video drivers.

    Of course the real monster is Office. I know Mac fans who did not move to Intel versions until Office was native. It is more important long term than the OS under it is.

    Apple to me seems to be moving away from the desktop trying to redirect us to the living room; one place I refuse to allow a PC to enter (apple or ms or linux)

    I know its accepted to ridicule Ms and speak of imminent doom and gloom but its been the same for ages here. I remember day one here for me and it was always Microsoft is going to die. There are just too many smart people there to write them off.

    Now Yahoo, yuck. I can't even stand going to their clutter of a page. If anything they probably are the loser here, they need someone to use them because the public isn't

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  19. Yang wanted more compensation for his employees by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    I have been reading about this and for teh record icann is not a long term shareholder at all.

    He only bought teh company after teh failed deal in order to raid it. Read his record here? He will be more than happy to fire 100% of the employees and all assets for pennies on the dollar and then cash out.

    The man is a mennace and I am shocked what he did to Time Warner is legal? To me this is gross negligence but I am no lawyer.

    Yasng beleived in a couple years he would own more markets in advertising and software development and the internet is still growing in many poorer countries.

    The shareholders mostly agree and Icahn has been known to buy up software companies to enforce sales. He pushed several software vendors and fired CEO's to sell to Oracle only to raid and dump later at teh expense of the other shareholders.

    Also its been mentioned MS only wants to trade stock and there is no growth for MS. Every market is losing money they are in. Even Vista is barely making them money and they are heavily overvalued. Why else would Bill Gates leave?

  20. interesting timeline .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    It's interesting considering the first offer was kept secret, that the stock peaked and then rapidly tanked right before Microsofts second offer, it like someone quietly bought the shares and then sold rapidly to provoke a fall in price at which point MS stepped in and made an offer for 60% per share .. :)

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  21. Billionaires by dj245 · · Score: 1

    Some billionaires would take over other companies and sell off the pieces just to make a buck. Some would give a token amount of their money away to charity. Me, I would shoot a guy in public with 50 witnesses. Because clearly the laws of this country do not apply to people of such wealth.

    --
    Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    1. Re:Billionaires by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd join Bush and co. and China and start another fascist regime and turn this planet into hell.

      You're not even evil enough to be a billionaire. :P

    2. Re:Billionaires by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Me, I would shoot a guy in public with 50 witnesses. Because clearly the laws of this country do not apply to people of such wealth. Gates?
  22. Yes, this is why I come to Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So that the best business minds in the country can explain to me just how much they know about...

    Sorry, I couldn't keep typing that, it hurt my strong sense of reality.

  23. Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by WebCowboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yeah. That will have been worth it, when in 2010, Yahoo! shareholders realise their $11.00 per share. It all depends on your perspective. Yes, it WILL be worth it for Yahoo EMPLOYEES and USERS. On the other hand, Yahoo SHAREHOLDERS are understandably unhappy. Yahoo shareholders that are angry are upset because they wanted a way to jump ship and make a boatload of money...pure greed. A buyout would hurt Yahoo employss, Yahoo users and the industry as a whole. It would make the AOL/TW and Daimler/Chrysler mergers look like a raging success.

    If it came as a surprise to anyone that Yahoo's founders and high-level managers have an antipathy towards MSFT then they must've been living in a cave, or are total morons. From Yahoo's inception there has been little love for MSFT--if they ever cooperated it was grudgingly, in their own self interest. There is a cultural gap bigger than the Grand Canyon there.

    It doesn't help that there is a giant impedance mismatch when it comes to technology and infrastructure. A Netcraft search is telling: Yahoo is almost universally FreeBSD, and what is left is Linux. Yahoo has ZERO Microsoft in their data centres. MSFT, of course, is almost universally Windows Server.

    Remember what happened to Hotmail when MSFT bought it? They ripped out all the FreeBSD over the first couple of years, subjecting users to regular periodic disruptions. "To hell with users, we eat our own dogfood dammit!". Not only that, I'd say most of the hotmail employees were abandoned too--wandered away or pushed out.

    Hotmail still exists today as a cornerstone to MSFT's "Live" initiative and is probably the biggest webmail provider out there so it wasn't all bad of course, but there is a difference here: MSFT had no webmail service of note before buying Hotmail. In the case of Yahoo, what have they got that MSFT doesn't have? They both have an IM platform and client, a search portal, webmail, advertising services, etc...except NONE of Yahoo's runs on MSFT technology! Within 2 years, the yahoo portal will be gone, the IM client will be gone, the webmail will be gone, everything will be gone. Yahoo is coveted for its customer base and advertising presence. It'll live for awhile as "MS Yahoo! Live" for awhile then it'll be gone. It's employees will be gone. It'll be a footnote in history.

    It doesn't matter all that much to me; I have no great love for either company and think they both offer mediocre service and crappy software. However, if Yahoo's directors and Yang himself care about the company and really believe it would grow, they've made the right decision to resist a buyout by MSFT. You'd have to be a fool to think there'd be anything of substance left of Yahoo after MSFT slayed them and feasted upon the corpse. Some of us would cheer to see that, but I'm betting the founder, directors and loyal employees would understandably NOT want to see that.

    Anyways, who is to say that Yahoo shareholders would be better off with the MSFT shares tossed their way in a buyout? Right now, I'd say NEITHER stock is going anywhere exiting in the next 2 years. By the way, if you just go by the charts, Yahoo did the right thing; in the past year, YHOO has lost just over 9 percent, but MSFT has lost over 10 percent. If you extend where things have been out to 2010, if you think YHOO is heading towards $11, then MSFT will probably be $10.50.

    1. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by afabbro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yahoo shareholders that are angry are upset because they wanted a way to jump ship and make a boatload of money...pure greed.

      You realize that these are the people who put up the money for the company...without whom, there would be no company. They're entitled to be greedy. It's their company.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    2. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by WebCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You realize that these are the people who put up the money for the company...without whom, there would be no company. They're entitled to be greedy. It's their company. You realise that the directors are informed people with a vested interest in the further continuance and growth of a company. They are there not only to "maximise shareholder value" but to act as "sober second thought" against potential "mob rule" by shareholders that are either ignorant or greedy. Without THEM there would probably be no Yahoo today either. Without them Yahoo would probably have sold themselves to MSFT years ago and thousands would have been without jobs and we'd all have one less choice on the market.

      Without Jerry Yang, or thousands of Yahoo employees there'd be no Yahoo either. Do you not think they're also "entitled to be greedy" too? I think so. Also keep in mind that Icahn is leading this crusade. Icahn didn't "put up the money for the company" to help start and nurture and grow the company. Icahn set his "corporate raider bastard" target on Yahoo LONG after it came to prominence, and bought up millions of shares with the full intention of flipping them to MSFT.

      Not only is Icahn NOT responsible for Yahoo's existence, it is full intention to END Yahoo's existence. That is his modus operandi: March into a public company using loads of capital and credit, start scheming to out all the directors and replace them with his cronies, start throwing the lawsuits around until he gets his way, then evicerate the company and sell off its guts to the highest bidder.

      I don't have all that much love for Yahoo, but I'd have to say that my distaste for pushy, selfish corporate raiders exceeds whatever beef I've ever had with Yahoo, and even Microsoft.

    3. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's why cooperatives are so good, the employees own part of the company. I think that's one of the only ways to attempt to stop corporate pillaging.

    4. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      great post!

    5. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by Forbman · · Score: 1

      Initially, maybe. But now? Nope. Most of the shares are not direct value in Yahoo. Get real.

      The REAL owners of Yahoo are its lenders and other first-tier debt holders. Shareholders fall far down on the list if Yahoo were to suddenly declare bankruptcy and sell off all their assets to the highest bidder.

      It's like me saying I own a part of the US presidential elections because I bought options on the various on-line options traders...

    6. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Many would say that Icahn's modus operandi is actually more like the following...

      March into a public company using loads of capital and credit...

      Take over, oust lazy shitheads at the helm, make a stagnant, potentially capable and profitable company work again...

      Sell off his interest for a serious gain.

      He does what many of us only dream of. What would you do if you could buy the helm at Yahoo or Microsoft? You'd eject the flotsam, divert resources to things the company is likely to do well, focus on doing them well... ...PROFIT.

      And let's remember that employees often benefit greatly from this sort of thing.

    7. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by mark2003 · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is a name for this - it is called the agent-principle problem. The principles of the company are the shareholders, or if it is in financial distress, the debt holders. They own the company. The managers of the company are the agents and they are supposed to act in the best interests of the principles. This means that they should be returning maximum value to the share holders, either through paying out cash or investing it to create value (growth is not the same thing as value, with a negative ROIC it can lose money).

      You may not like this but it is the deal the Yang made when he IPO'd Yahoo! If he wanted to remain in control he should have kept the company private. This is management hubris pure and simple. If I was a shareholder of Yahoo! then I would sue as well.

    8. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not so cut and dried as you claim. Shareholders (especially the Carl Icahn corporate raider types) are often very short sighted. What's best for these impatient greedy flipper types can often be quite different from what's best for the shareholders who take a longer view. If these two groups of shareholders conflict, whose interests should prevail? Not so clear a choice, is it?

      Yahoo's management could be perfectly justified in rejecting the Microsoft offer if they can demonstrate that the company would be better off, long-term, as an independent entity.

    9. Re:Jerry Yang did the right thing for the COMPANY by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

      Take over, oust lazy shitheads at the helm, make a stagnant, potentially capable and profitable company work again..

      That'd be great, but Icahn's track record isn't exactly universally altruistic. Rumours of MSFT's interest in eliminating Yahoo as a competitor--most easily done via takeover--abounded for years. Icahn's interest clearly isn't in making Yahoo better, it is basically large-scale speculation or a "big flip".

      Yahoo is targeted because he thinks MSFT is a motivated buyer, but YHOO is reluctant to sell out, and shareholders were not assertive with management (Yahoo is helf mostly by sleepy institutional investors and a smattering of retail stockholders). Icahn has the means to become the single biggest shareholder so he can wake up sleepy pension funds and bully management around to make a quick profit. He doesn't care about the company, or ultimately about other investors. OTOH, Jerry Yang and every other intelligent person who knows hoe the industry works KNOWS taht Yahoo would simply dissolve once purchased by MSFT. Employees know that means big layoffs ahead, and a huge shift in technology and corporate culture that would drive away even more. Long-term shareholders know that a takeover likely makes YHOO dead money--best would be to cash out of any MSFT shares received in payment because the most likely outcome is that the quick profit/increase in valuation will evapourate in 1 to 2 years at most.

      Really, it's laughable to think that yahoo as a company, or its employees, would see any meaningful, lasting benefit from being absorbed by MSFT. Historically, it has been shown that is not the case.

  24. The pulse of the cube farm by weston · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems to me that many of you do not have your fingers on the pulse of the day to day users in a corporate enviornment. That is why you fail to see why companies use, and will continue to use, Windows as a base OS for their client systems.

    It's true, I've been out of the cube farm for about a year and a half. And I think it's true that there, Windows still has significant penetration.

    But consider the following:

    (1) Even in the corporate world, users are ready to get off the upgrade treadmill at Windows XP. Precisely for the reason you mention "It works just fine for what these users need to do." Nobody needs the next version of Windows, nobody really cares, and Vista really isn't that great.

    (2) There exist increasingly capable alternatives that also "work just fine for what these users need to do."

    (3) More and more work is done on web apps.

    It does not 'break' as often as you would like it to, or believe it to break

    I'm sure that somewhere, there's a place where seasoned Windows sysadmins correctly administer Windows boxes built from well-selected reliable hardware so well that your statement is true. However, it certainly has not been the case in the business and home environments I've been a part of. And "as often as I'd like it to?" I'd be a happier man if it broke under my use not at all.

    But even assuming your statement is truer than I think it is -- the other three points are what I really mean by "Windows is stagnating." Microsoft's licensing revenues certainly aren't going away overnight. But right now, in the main, Windows is pretty much headed to the ignominy of just another commodity.

    1. Re:The pulse of the cube farm by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even in the corporate world, users are ready to get off the upgrade treadmill at Windows XP. Precisely for the reason you mention "It works just fine for what these users need to do." Nobody needs the next version of Windows, nobody really cares, and Vista really isn't that great.Thing is at least if they want support for new hardware and security updates (and in our ever more networked world I would not want my main desktop OS to be one that was no longer getting security updates) they can't stay on XP forever.

      Moving to linux isn't a cure for the upgrade treadmill. Look at ubuntu, the most popular desktop linux distro. They strugle to provide a 3 years of support on releases made every two years (that is only a single year of overlap). This makes the MS upgrade treadmill look postively gentle. I can't seem to easilly find information about rhel or OS-X but I don't think thier support lifecycles are anywhere near as long as micorsofts either.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:The pulse of the cube farm by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      They strugle to provide a 3 years of support on releases made every two years (that is only a single year of overlap). This makes the MS upgrade treadmill look postively gentle. I can't seem to easilly find information about rhel or OS-X but I don't think thier support lifecycles are anywhere near as long as micorsofts either. Ubuntu's releases are much less expensive than MS's.
    3. Re:The pulse of the cube farm by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Informative

      That is true but provided you are sensible windows isn't all that expensive.

      Per thier support lifecycle policy MS says they will offer security updates for at least 7 years after the release of the next version.

      What that means is as long as you buy the latest version OEM (you can use downgrade rights if you don't want to run the new version yet) the PC will almost certainly have been retired before the version of windows it shipped with

      Some companies end up paying a bit more (exactly how much more is hard to tell because details of volume license prices don't seem easy to find online) for windows because they want the extra flexibility volume licensing gives them (yes there are reimage rights but they are relatively restricted) but even then windows will be a pretty small proportion of the TCO of the machine.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:The pulse of the cube farm by Forbman · · Score: 1

      Security fixes? BFD. It's all the bugs, inconsistant operations, etc. that never get worked out that suck every day, even when they release a new "version" of something.

    5. Re:The pulse of the cube farm by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention that if you don't like Ubuntu's short release cycle, there is Debian.

    6. Re:The pulse of the cube farm by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Woody-sarge was longer than the ubuntu LTS release cycle, all the other debian release cycles were shorter.

      The security update overlap between releases for desktop stuff is also about the same as ubuntu LTS (for server stuff it is much worse at least if canonical keep thier promises) and certainly nowhere close to the 7 YEARs or more that microsofts current lifecycle policy specifies.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  25. George Ou is an ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone who could defend Vista and DRM is a huge ass, given the number and quality of people who say both suck. Everything you don't want to know about Ou and Gutmann is here. and I'll reproduce it entirely.

    Just for fun, Vista IS a power hog that will contribute to global warming if used, so even that charge is vindicated. Here, though, is a thorough account of George Ou and Ed Bott's harassment of researcher Peter Gutmann:

    Windows DRM: A Response to the Disinformation

    This is a response to a series of articles by George Ou and Ed Bott of ZDNet stretching over a period of more than a month. I'll try to stay away from the assorted personal attacks in George and Ed's articles and just outline the details.

    It all started with an email from George Ou, who decided, without ever hearing my talk on content-protection issues or seeing the slides for the talk, that what I'd said in the slides was wrong. I offered to send them to him, but by then he'd gone ahead and posted his conclusions anyway, still without ever actually having seen the slides that he's commenting on. Later he changed his story to claim quite emphatically that he wasn't attacking the slides at all, which seems a bit contradictory since the material wasn't present anywhere but the slides.

    Dealing with him was quite weird in a number of other ways as well. For example whenever anyone anywhere posted something that happened to agree with his position, I'd immediately get a gleeful email from him crowing about it. I never even saw the articles, because George would beat me to them every time. It's as if I had my own personal "news about George Ou" news-clipping service provided for me by ZDNet.

    He even went so far as to lodge a formal complaint about me with the University, although since I'd been trying quite hard to ignore him (both he and Ed even mentioned this in their blogs), I'm not really sure what he complained about (details of complaints are treated as confidential). Maybe he was upset because I wasn't paying any attention to him.

    Ed's tactics were slightly different. He posted his initial comments on a blog whose existence I wasn't even aware of (and therefore had no way of responding to) and then summarily declared victory in a later blog posting based on the fact that I didn't reply. The only communication I had from him in that time was a long lecture that he sent me about professionalism (!!).

    In this entire time, neither George nor Ed ever tried to obtain the slides from me ("I never asked for his slides" - George Ou), the actual material that started this whole thing. I've sent out copies of the slides to every single person who asked for them, but neither Ed nor George ever bothered contacting me to get the slides that they were attacking or to do any fact-checking whatsoever for the material they were posting to their blogs. Indeed, all I got from Ed was a long sermon on professionalism.

    Ed's most recent missive came in multiple instalments, since most of it makes for somewhat tedious reading I've provided a brief commentary on the main points as an appendix for people who really feel the need to go through it all, but I've just included a quick summary here to save space. So let's see what Ed's justification is for claiming that "Everything you've read about Vista DRM is wrong":

    • Avoiding asking me for the current slides so that he can attack a ~9-month- old copy of the writeup (which goes hand in hand with his earlier trick of posting an article to a blog that I didn't know existed, and therefore had no chance of replying to).
    • As a corollary, finding that some web pages and news stories linked at the time have changed.
    • A disagreement over whether a 46" monitor is suitable for a desktop PC, and another one over whether polling thirty times a second is exce
  26. Our Fault by Morromist · · Score: 1

    Look: Microsoft and Yahoo compete for the Icy North. What does this say? They've been competing with MS for many years now and they know who their enemy is. Furthermore: Yahoo is run by /. type people with /. ideas. I suspect that they simply bought into the Anti-Microsoft trend of anger, fear and loathing that permeates our sector of the internet. I'll bet that Yahoo people can browse /. without exciting too much attention; Microsoft people have to keep a low profile and wear asbestos. I mean to say... would you like to be bought by Microsoft?

    1. Re:Our Fault by Paradigm_Complex · · Score: 1

      First off, that's a "map" of "online communities." Even if it were somehow a relevant source it's completely overlooking things such as operating systems or search engines. Both MS and Yahoo! have their fingers in quite a few pies. Second, the fact /.ers often have fun playing lawyer or businessman and tend to have strong views in these regards does not somehow weaken those with experience and expertise who happen to agree with /.ers.

      --
      "A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
    2. Re:Our Fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First off, what substantial "pies" does yahoo have its fingers in that are not related to the "search engine" and "online community"? Last I checked 87% of Yahoo's revenue came in from advertising to the community and thats what MS and Yahoo are competing for. Secondly it is not implied that anti-MS feeling is an immoral or irrational thing, instead the implication is that the anti-MS crowd influenced Yahoo more than the stockholders.

  27. yahoo wins in the long run by knocking MS out by justdrew · · Score: 1

    MS made it clear they felt they NEEDED yahoo to continue and ever be competitive in the field. Now they don't have it, their shit is stinking and they're going to be forced to stop wasting their public corporate money on a dog that won't hunt. Yahoo wins by knowing a major competitor out of the game. Smart move on their part. shareholders should be glad.

  28. Look up "reputation" in the dictionary. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A good name lost is seldom regained. When character is gone, all is gone, and one of the richest jewels of life is lost forever. -- J. Hawes

    Even Slashdot's fortune program is on to you, Twitter! It must have been hacked by Microsoft. They are out to get you, you know.

  29. This tells more about... by Hymer · · Score: 1

    ...how desperate Microsoft is than anything else.
    Yahoo management just believes in their company and its ability to survive. ...and MS interest in them is in fact a confirmation of this.

  30. MOD PARENT UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Informative +5 IMHO.

  31. Innovate != Invent by jamrock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple is innovating?

    Of course they are, and they continue to innovate. The iPhone interface isn't an innovation? And are you fucking kidding me about the so-called "Best Page In The Universe"? Anyone who could have such a shitty-looking website doesn't have the least goddamned clue about design, or its importance, especially when it comes to human interface. Microsoft and Dell have also introduced dramatic innovations, and I'm fully aware that that statement is heresy on Slashdot, but give credit where it is due (and I'm saying this as a Mac user). The problem is that the word doesn't mean what most people think it means (apologies to Inigo Montoya). From Dictionary.com:

    innovate : to introduce something new; make changes in anything established.

    People usually mistakenly conflate "innovate" with "invent", and to say that any of these three companies has not innovated would be wrong. Apple's innovations were to bring geeky technology to the masses in a way that made sense and were useful (GUI, CD-ROM drive, USB, Unix); Microsoft of course were the ones who spread computing far, wide, and deep; Dell's innovations were in manufacturing and sales, and they can be fairly credited with commoditizing the personal computer. In my opinion Michael Dell has done more to drive down the cost of computers, thereby bringing heretofore artificially expensive gadgets into the mainstream, than anyone else. Like him or loathe him, his place in computing history is secure.

    1. Re:Innovate != Invent by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      How the hell is this insightful? Apple apparently innovates by doing exactly what everyone else is doing but selling it to more people?

      Well, there is a response to this, and it's (ironically) here

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  32. Creative spelling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Is there a threshold where the "M$" thing goes from cred to cretin?

    If there is, I think you just crossed it.

  33. "that extra push over the cliff" by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    Part of my underlying implied point, and the GP's point too I think, was that in holding out for $31, investors could well wind up getting that extra push over the cliff, and ultimately get much less than even $30. :)

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
    1. Re:"that extra push over the cliff" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  34. Google does no evil by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

    For all the Google slander articles, I've yet to see any proof that Google is suddenly evil. People bemoan they are in China, but so are AOL/MS/Yahoo, etc. Google was the only one to fight the censorship. They are the only one that shows "These search results are censored" on their page.

    In the end they said, "it is better to create in roads in China and hope to fight censorship down the road than to not be in China at all."

    Massive corporations get attacked all the time, but while Yahoo and MS were volunteering your private search results to the government, and Yahoo was handling over journalists who talked about democracy, Google was telling the government to screw off and protecting your privacy.

    Google did cave once, on repeated orders from a judge to hand over incriminating photos on a kiddie-porn ring in Brazil. Clearly that makes them evil.

    I'm sure this all comes across like I'm some slavering fan-boy, but I just want to see some facts. If everyone wants to call Google evil, please provide some.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  35. really by unity100 · · Score: 1

    and they care for nothing but more profits, even at the expense of destruction of the company, and vision it holds and service it provides. because they can just capitalize on their profits, sell out at the right time, and jump to another ship. that is how it is happening for a long time in wall street now.

    its time we admit that current shareholder concept is not working very well. we are not in 17th century anymore, when a shareholder of a west indies expedition had to stick with his shares until make or break of the company on the return of the ships sent. people are just buying and dumping shares like cabbages.

    1. Re:really by spells · · Score: 1

      because they can just capitalize on their profits, sell out at the right time, and jump to another ship. that is how it is happening for a long time in wall street now

      People can't just magically "sell out," there has to be a buyer who is willing to pay for the shares. What is the incentive for someone to buy if you have just stripped the value out of the company?
    2. Re:really by OakLEE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, if Jerry Yang and Yahoo really had a vision and really cared so much about achieving it, they wouldn't have sold their shares to a bunch of "capricious, money-grubbing, shareholders." Yahoo's decision to be a public traded company (a 19th Century development, not a 17th Century one), is one they made on their own because they need the money the equity markets provided to reach the status they hold now.

      In fact, maybe Yahoo's original (pre-IPO) shareholders including Mr. Yang are the real greedy ones. After all, they obviously cared nothing about the company's long term prospects since they exposed it to the "horrors" of the publicly traded securities markets. It's clear they only cared about "cashing in" and monetizing the value of their Yahoo stock, Yahoo's actual company "be damned."

      Just out of curiosity, what exactly to you propose replace the corporate entity in modern day business? Should we nationalize all major industry ala the U.K. in the 1960s and 70s and have the government be the only shareholder? Should we ban the concept of limited liability all together and only allow general partnerships (i.e., make each investor individually liable for the company's debts and obligations)?

      --
      The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
    3. Re:really by unity100 · · Score: 1

      first, public companies and buying and selling of stocks dates back to 17th century. if you had cash, you could sponsor a ship to anywhere in the world for trading.

      you are going extreme. the opposite of pure unbridled, destructive greedy trading is not nationalization.

      we need to invent schemes to protect companies from being undermined and destroyed by short term actions of greedy speculators. these not only destroy companies, but also undermine the quality of product/service they are supplying, and cause loss of vision that brought them to that point, and sometimes entirely remove company from existence. its damaging to the society because it damages the system. behold yahoo event now. some guy, totally irrelevant to the company, and even the sector just 1 months ago, jumped in and now trying to oust the people who not only have brought the company to these days, but also are pioneers of the internet era, important visionaries regardless of their successes or failures. whereas any i.t. company in the world would try to make those guys their ceo, some tycoon is trying to remove them.

  36. Icahn's History by weston · · Score: 1

    basically everyone will lose except for Carl and his board.

    Worth emphasizing. See Icahn's history with TWA.

  37. Carl Icahn is an idiot by Enderandrew · · Score: 1

    He is rich and did something right I must presume, but bemoaning and belitting the company you are so heavily invested in doesn't boost investor confidence. If you want to raise your stock price how about you say:

    "To be honest, it is hard not to see dollar signs when someone offers you $40 a share. For Yahoo to remain independent, they must be pretty confident about their place in the industry and their future. Perhaps Jerry Yang knows something the rest of us don't."

    You get your back-handed compliment in, vent some steam, and at the same time hopefully try to convince investors to drive your stock price up.

    Creating a split within Yahoo isn't going to help your wallet. At best, you drive the price low enough, and oust the leaders to the point that Microsoft does buy you, but likely it will be at a price lower than where you're at today. If that is your best case scenario, you're just better offer dumping stock today.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    1. Re:Carl Icahn is an idiot by Forbman · · Score: 1

      I agree with you, but I think the value-add for Carl Icahn is to shut down some of the non-revenue-generating stuff (like, all the cool stuff such as Pipes), and simply find someone to sell the online ad business to (like Microsoft), leaving a husk of "yahoo" as some lame-ass search portal that just uses MicroHoo underneath, but can be run by a skeleton crew. How many Microsoft shares does Tracinda and Carl Icahn own? Hmm...

    2. Re:Carl Icahn is an idiot by Xuranova · · Score: 1

      I don't know Mr. Icahn personally but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing and exactly why he's doing it. He has belittled execs of companies before and has had them thrown out before doing whatever is he does and he seems to make more money than he loses.

      I don't think he's just yelling at Yahoo's CEO in a blind emotional rage.

      --
      "There is no real right or wrong, just what the majority accepts at the time."
  38. Messy mergers by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People seem to forget what a disaster HP/Compaq was, and what a money sink-hole AOL/TW was.

    Yahoo has been known to do most of their web development on open platforms and languages. Microsoft's web services often come in third place. By purchasing Yahoo, you either allow Yahoo to remain Yahoo and abandon existing Microsoft services (never going to happen), or you force Yahoo's users into Microsoft services they didn't want (wasting what you just spent billions on), or you basically keep the two companies as seperate companies.

    These two companies were not meant to be merged.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    1. Re:Messy mergers by awitod · · Score: 1

      Given HP's current market position, I don't think you can say the merger was anything other than very successful over the long haul. Mark Hurd has done a hell of a job.

    2. Re:Messy mergers by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't think acquiring Compaq has anything to do with current success. The merger cost tons of money, held up HP for a good two years, and led to Carly's demise as CEO.

      HP has done reasonably well since then, but that is akin to saying just because Time Warner has some success now, that doesn't justify the disasterous merged with AOL.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    3. Re:Messy mergers by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that HP is where it is only because Carly is gone, Mark Hurd has a clue about the technology business and the printer segment is still a cash cow. Everything's that's cool about HP now, and that makes HP interesting for business has nothing to do with being the largest volume seller of PCs.

      HP is successful because Hurd is moving HP away from the PC commodity market that Fiorina was lusting after.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  39. YHOO is not a golden goose by blitz487 · · Score: 1

    I owned Yahoo stock for 10 years, and finally got sick of it not going anywhere and dumped it at the beginning of the year. YHOO is not a golden goose, and is showing no indications of ever becoming one. And please, Yang is in it for the money. He made that choice when he took the company public in exchange for making him rich. There's nothing wrong with that, but the die is cast, and that's the way he needs to run it - for the benefit of the shareholders. If he has a personal agenda that is something else, he needs to leave.

  40. theoretically by unity100 · · Score: 1

    yet the years i invested in the stock market taught me that big players always magically sell out before things take a down turn.

    1. Re:theoretically by OakLEE · · Score: 1

      Lol tell that to Jimmy Cayne and Joe Lewis. I bet they wish they'd sold their Bear Stearns stock at the top. Tell that to all of the mutual funds (the real big players) that are down over 10% this year. Hell I'm pretty sure Jerry Yang wishes he'd "magically sold out" back in 2000 when Yahoo's stock peaked.

      I've beaten the S&P every year since I started investing, including this year, and I am not moving large amounts of cash by any stretch of the imagination. Don't blame your individual shortcomings as an investor on an institutional conspiracy to "screw the little guy."

      --
      The sun beams down on a brand new day, No more welfare tax to pay, Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light...
  41. sockpuppets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hi twitter

  42. Shareholder value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who said maximizing shareholder value means maximizing shareholder value in the short term? Is it better to double your investment in one day, or to triple your investment in a week? If you believe rates of change are all that matter, then doubling overnight is better. But if you believe that shareholder value is somehow supposed to be connected to the real economy, then Jerry is doing exactly the right thing. Greedy selfish pigs vs. forward thinking executives who are considering the welfare of the entire company. That's the difference. Anyone who thinks that cashing in on a marriage of completely opposite cultures is, in the long run, going to make the world a better place for anyone other than assholes like Ichann needs to pull their head out of their ass.

  43. All small "investors" are gamblers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some long term some short term, but you can't "invest" in the stockmarket. The stock is already there you are just buying it hoping it will go up substantially by the time you need to sell it.

  44. Re: null by I_Lost_My_Puppy · · Score: 1

    n/t

  45. Might that be... by Xoc-S · · Score: 1
    MS's bank account are rather emptier then they where 8 years ago.

    Might that be because they started paying dividends?

  46. yes. by zippthorne · · Score: 1

    One thing, off the top of my head, is that you can lose $2 billion and still have a lot of money. If you only had $1 billion, you couldn't do that.

    Uh, you could also fund some kind of big project that requires a lot of people to work on for a long time. Like maybe an x-prize shot, or a giant hospital/relief ship.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  47. Not a private company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, can't blame shareholders for being pissed.

    He may be CEO, he may be a founder, but when he took the company public, he made a boatload of dough, AND made millions of others part-owners while reducing his ownership stake. Now he wants to make arbitrary decisions without consulting the other owners?

  48. Microo or Microhoo? by entropy99 · · Score: 1

    I personally like Microo better, but google has microo at 64k to microhoo at 598k. Microhoo is a mouth full if you ask me.

  49. count me in that 4% then... by Tmack · · Score: 1
    Cause Im still using it. Never even wanted to deal with XP, specially all the "you have to call in to register it" crap. Yeh, I know there are cracks, ways around it, etc, but 2k works fine for me, hasnt bluescreened on me, and has been relatively stable over the last 8 years or so. I was using NT4 prior to 2k, as I was running a dual-P2 back then (233Mhz!!, still servering as a 2x333 now) and the eyecandy XP gave, along with the problems friends were having with it that I ended up having to fix just turned me off it. So far I havent found a limitation requiring XP only in the stuff I use, so theres no reason for me to "upgrade".

    tm

    --
    Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
    1. Re:count me in that 4% then... by x_MeRLiN_x · · Score: 1

      You don't have to call them. It only takes one or two mouse clicks over the internet.

  50. You're not really into computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as much as you're into the software that runs on them. And really, not so much the software (as in quality), as the amount of software (quantity). You have a big software collection. Yippeee!!

  51. But that is ALL shareholders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    even the penny-ante ones or the employees who have share options. Heck, even himself.

    And although big investors that have a lot of money will have more mobility of investment will get a better deal for short-term gain, shareholders who own fewer shares (and so the cost of brokering them is a greater proportion of the money they would make) see no or reverse value in the short-term gutting of the company.

    Where does it say that shareholders must be listened to in proportion to the number of shares held?

    The shareholders are all shareholders and Ichan isn't even a large shareholder.

  52. Makes sense? by reiisi · · Score: 1

    Okay, which is a better outcome for the company?

    (1) Shares steadily decline to $10 in 2010. (Assuming management has no magic to bring it back flat or back to growth.)

    (2) Shares shoot up to (almost) $40 for a week, drop below what they are now as I-cahn't-keep-my-fingers-out-of-other-people's-pockets and his ilk sell theirs off, then essentially disappear completely as Microsoft mismanages the merger.

    You think Microsoft can properly manage it while keeping Yahoo as a separate company? You think Microsoft can inflate their search company's "value" with Yahoo's customers?(Sans tech. Be serious.)

    But as far as the customer base goes, should Microsoft ever take Yahoo over, I'll be one ex-customer. No way I want Microsoft mishandling my mail. And I'm not particularly unique about that, either. I have some relatives who are ex- hotmail.com, now on Yahoo, who would also move in a heartbeat.

    Buying the Microsoft "bail-out" had only one possible result for Yahoo -- being bailed entirely out of the industry. Permanently.

    I-cahn't is just a financial bully thinking he has a chance to abuse the courts to his profit.

    And, yes, it was a no-brainer. Just say no.

    --
    Computer memory is just fancy paper, CPUs just fancy pens with fancy erasers; the 'net is just a fancy backyard fence.
  53. kudos by unity100 · · Score: 1

    kudos to you, but for millions that are on the same boat as we, and i believe we are on the majority, it is the other way. thats the way it is - bigger fish always eats smaller fish.

  54. Re:Who said maximizing Shareholder value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    means maximizing shareholder value in the short term?

    Nobody said this. It is a deliberate misinterpretation of the function of corporate reporting.

  55. Uhm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He didn't buy those shares for $0.