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Terminal Chaos

Ben Rothke writes "While Terminal Chaos should be shelved in the current events or business section of a bookstore, it could also be placed in the modern crime section. After reading it, one gets the impression that the state of air traffic today could only come due to criminal neglect or mischief. If one looks at pictures of airline flights from the 1960s, you will see well-dressed passengers enjoying their flight. In 2008, barely a day goes by without an incident of air rage, from irate passengers in the terminal, to those in the air causing flights to be diverted. Today's airline traveler considers it a near miracle if his flight arrives on time with his baggage." Keep reading for the rest of Ben's review. Terminal Chaos: Why U.S. Air Travel Is Broken and How to Fix It author George Donohue and Russell Shaver pages 240 publisher Amer Inst of Aeronautics rating 10 reviewer Ben Rothke ISBN 978-1563479496 summary Fascinating look at the current state and problems with the US air traffic system The reasons for the meltdown in the air traffic system are complex. The book names a number of reasons for today's chaos. Some of these include airline deregulation, multiple governmental agencies with no central oversight or responsibility, multiple corporate entities with conflicting agendas, an air traffic controllers union resisting change, a technologically outdated air traffic control system, and more.

While the public perception in the US is that somewhere out there, government officials are looking out for passenger's rights, the reality is there is no one looking out for them. Unlike their European counterparts, air travelers in the US have very few rights. This lack of passenger advocacy along with the other reasons has a huge impact on the economy, in addition to the costs that flight delays and cancellations cost U.S. travelers, which are estimated annually at over $3 billion.

Terminal Chaos: Why U.S. Air Travel Is Broken and How to Fix It is a fascinating book. The authors show a number of ways to fix the current problems. While the book is part case-study, it is also part tragedy, given the tragedy is that Washington lacks anyone with the pragmatism, willpower and audacity to stand up to the unions and powers that be to fix the system. The book lays out in 7 concise chapters the problems, ringleaders, obstacles and challenges that brought us to the state that we are in today.

The authors sum it up best when they note that the distance from New York to Chicago is 635 nautical miles, and when flown by a piston-powered DC-6 with a cruise speed of 315 MPH over 50 years ago, the scheduled flight time was a little longer than two hours. Today, scheduled airlines fly Boeing 737 turbofans at 511 MPH, but book this as a 3-hour flight.

In chapter 4, the authors note that while some flight delays are the result of post-9/11 security issues, the main reason why flying has become so arduous is that the air transportation system, as it is now structured in the US, is untenable from a fundamental business point of view. The government regulated business model is unstable and irrational and planes are purposely overbooked, flights are cancelled for no publicly explainable reason, and no one will offer the flier a sound reason for why these events occur.

Both authors are professors at the Center for Air Transportation Systems research at George Mason University. The book quotes from research done there, which includes suggestions such as to use larger aircraft (something Continental is doing at Newark), along with other market mechanisms. Other research shows that slot exemption, weight-based landing fees and other issues combine to lead to inefficient use of airport capacity, especially as slot-controlled airports, such as O'Hare, Kennedy, Newark, LaGuardia and Atlanta.

In chapter 6, the authors take a no-holds barred approach to NATCA, which is the National Air Traffic Controllers Association. They view NATCA as a stumbling block to modernization, and an organization whose goal is to protect their members, over the public they are supposed to serve. They also question how NATCA gets away with constantly stating that the US air traffic control system is the safest in the world, when it is actually behind Europe when it comes to safety metrics (Europe has .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049 in North America).

Ultimately, the book notes that the air traffic control problems exist in the fact that there is a perfect storm of airlines, airports, government agencies (FAA, DOT, OMB, DHS), White House and Congress, all of which seem to believe that they don't have the responsibility to fix the problem. Each seems to be waiting for someone else to take charge.

Chapter 7 lists a number of practical ways in which the air traffic control system can be modernized. Some of the suggestions would require significant financial outlays; others simply require all of the parties involved to play nicely together.

Overall, Terminal Chaos is a landmark book, in that it cuts through the complexity of the air traffic mess, and clearly lays out the problem, and possible solutions.

It is a very well-written and extremely well-researched book. It does have a few slight errors. Most noticeably on page 73 when it says that Continental has been in and out of bankruptcy court, while the table on the next page shows that Continental has been out of bankruptcy court for over 15 years. Also, one of the travel tips the authors give is to have a traveler consider using a private aircraft out of smaller, less congested airports. That is indeed a good suggestion, albeit extremely costly, and not financially feasible for most of the flying public.

Terminal Chaos is a book that should be required reading for anyone involved in air traffic and aviation, from passengers to every employee at the FAA. The authors have innovative ideas that should be listened to and implemented; from holding the government decision-makers responsible, to realistic ways to modernizing the air traffic control system. The book is a fascinating overview of what goes on in the skies above us, and in the air traffic control towers around us.

Ben Rothke is the author of Computer Security: 20 Things Every Employee Should Know.

You can purchase Terminal Chaos: Why U.S. Air Travel Is Broken and How to Fix It from amazon.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

511 comments

  1. Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Airline passengers were the very wealthy elites, now they're not.

    1. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Airline passengers were the very wealthy elites, now they're not.

      High fuel prices will keep the riff-raff out.

      Seriously, the week after the grounding of all flights, the air was clearer than it has been in decades. We really have to cut back on useless air travel - it's a "luxury" our children will be paying for, and cursing us for. Take a train, take a boat, take some TIME and enjoy it - getting there is supposed to be half the fun.

    2. Re:Back in the day... by sohp · · Score: 1, Troll

      If the book hits on unions as hard as the reviewer seems to indicate, it appears the authors of want to go back to that time when they and their social circles were the only passengers.

    3. Re:Back in the day... by russotto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Take a train, take a boat, take some TIME and enjoy it - getting there is supposed to be half the fun.

      Whoever said that never traveled through the midwest or the great plains. Or across an ocean.

      My time is a severely limited quantity; taking a week for a trip which would take a day (on both ends) by air means a lot less time at my destination. Taking a boat across the Atlantic or Pacific is right out; even when there was still regular passenger service, it took more than a month to cross the Atlantic.

    4. Re:Back in the day... by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Quite true. I bet if you could find people willing to pay the prices they were paying (adjusted for inflation) on a flight, you'd be able to offer an unparalleled service, where everyone travelled first class, champagne was free, tickets would be transferable, and the airline would treat every customer as a prince.

      Prices would be 3-4 times the price they are now so such luxuries would be easily affordable by an airline.

    5. Re:Back in the day... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

      Airline passengers were the very wealthy elites, now they're not.
      As were the airline executives. Funny, only part of the equation has changed over the years...
      --
      Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    6. Re:Back in the day... by maxume · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Are you near death, obsessed with productivity or under heavy obligations?

      Those are the only three reasons I can think of for time being severely limited. I live healthy, I am lazy and I don't have a family, so I can't really say that my time is severely limited. Is there some other reason?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Back in the day... by mapsjanhere · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually it took 5 days in most cases, the SS United States did it in under 4 days in 1952.

      --
      I'm aging rapidly, I bought a new game and had no idea if my machine was good for it.
    8. Re:Back in the day... by bucky0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If by "heavy obligations" you mean, "graduate school" then yes.

      My family lives in Brazil (I'm a dual citizen), if it would take me a month each way, (two weeks being generous) to get me from nashville, TN to Rio de Janeiro, I would never get to see my family.

      >> getting there is supposed to be half the fun

      When you're flying to Rio de Janeiro, I'd much rather be there and on the beach with family/friends than sitting on a boat.

      --

      -Bucky
    9. Re:Back in the day... by Ziest · · Score: 2, Informative

      Taking a boat across the Atlantic or Pacific is right out; even when there was still regular passenger service, it took more than a month to cross the Atlantic.

      I'm not sure where you get your information but a transatlantic crossing today is about 6 days. Have a look at cunard.com. My parents are planning to take the Queen Mary 2 from New York to Southampton next summer and the Cunard website says 6 days. If I remember right a transatlantic crossing in the 1890's took 8 or 9 days. Look up RMS Titanic on Wikipedia. She left Southampton on 10 April 1912. She ran ran into an iceberg on 14 April at which time she was close to Newfoundland.

      --
      Another day closer to redwood heaven
    10. Re:Back in the day... by dirkbaztard · · Score: 1

      Taking a boat across the Atlantic or Pacific is right out; even when there was still regular passenger service, it took more than a month to cross the Atlantic. According to Cunard's website, average time to cross the Atlantic is only 6-7 days - on the scheduled trips they still offer. Not time efficient, but it does show that regular passenger service is still available. Personally, given the opportunity to do it, I'd take the ship across. It would be welcome down-time.
    11. Re:Back in the day... by cunina · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, because any criticism of a union equates to an endorsement of a regressive workers-be-damned plutocracy.

    12. Re:Back in the day... by cduffy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Time is money.

      Taking that much travel time would mean I would be unable to travel to visit my family or convince my employer to send me to a conference... simply because the lost income (for myself or my employer) corresponding with the travel costs in question would be too great to justify the expense.

      You say "obsessed with productivity"; I say "rational".

    13. Re:Back in the day... by lawn.ninja · · Score: 1

      It took more than a month? Maybe in the 50's, the 1750's when we didn't have them fancy engines inside of dem der boats. But give me a break... It takes less than a week to cross the atlantic by boat.

    14. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      even when there was still regular passenger service, it took more than a month to cross the Atlantic.

      Only if you were traveling in the 17th century. During late-19th/early-20th century, Atlantic crossings took 7-10 days.

    15. Re:Back in the day... by osu-neko · · Score: 3, Funny

      Welcome to Slashdot. :) There are no shades of grey here. You must think in binary. You either 100% agree something or you 100% oppose it. Quit being a waffler! :p

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    16. Re:Back in the day... by maxume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The devils advocate argument would be that you have constructed your life irrationally if you have to choose between work and visiting your family.

      I'm pragmatic enough that I won't claim to support that argument (all that much), but that was a big part of the snark in my initial post.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    17. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      >>>very wealthy elites

      Not at all!!! Perhaps middle-class who saved, but NOT very wealthy elites.

    18. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which bit of the Atlantic are you crossing? The current Eastbound Blue Ribband is under 3 days (1998) and Westbound is 3 1/2 days (1952). Let's say that the distance is 3000 nautical miles (Liverpool- New York). At 30 knots (a plausible speed), that's 100 hours, a little over 4 days. At 20 knots (a little more realistic) it's 150 hours, still under a week. For it to take a month, you'd have to travel at around 5 knots - not even the slowest freighter moves that slowly. When the Blue Ribband was invented in the 1830s it took little more than 18 days.

      Or do you mean 'crossing' the Atlantic between the poles?

    19. Re:Back in the day... by Feanturi · · Score: 1

      And somehow the country did not grind to a halt and fall apart. If somebody really needs to get to another continent within a day, it should be because somebody they love is on their deathbed. It shouldn't be because of yet another business deal. Our priorities are so screwed these days, but I guess that's progress.

    20. Re:Back in the day... by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 5, Funny

      My time is a severely limited quantity; And yet you're posting on Slashdot. ;)
    21. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 4, Informative

      No!!

      those were the days when the unions were not as corrupt as they are know.

      buddy of mine works in a ny building. he has almost been killed for the crime of... turning on a router. It was a union ship.

      Today's unions are corrupt.

    22. Re:Back in the day... by cduffy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I value my work more than I value visiting extended family, so I'm not deeply unhappy with that outcome; I just don't think that "well, high-speed travel is now completely unavailable, deal with it" is a reasonable position at this point. We might get there eventually, but that hasn't happened yet.

    23. Re:Back in the day... by cliffski · · Score: 4, Insightful

      indeed. I don't understand this face-meeting obsession by air-mile-obsessed execs.
      Ok, I'm a small fry business, but I have contracts with companies all over the world, and I've never met anyone from any of them. My biggest partners have worked with me for a year and we never even spoke on the phone.

      Business people need to get over this prehistoric desire to go pick fleas off fellow apes if they want to sign deals with them. We have broadband, phones, and webcams, you should be flying much less now for business than you did 10 years ago.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    24. Re:Back in the day... by peragrin · · Score: 1

      your supposed to say you would rather be on a boat with my family and friends near rio for two weeks than taking a rather long and boring train/boat trip for two weeks.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    25. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It took me 5 days in 1964 on the SS France

    26. Re:Back in the day... by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Between many (most?) cities in the continental US, there are no passenger trains or boats. Try again.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    27. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      videoconferencing exists. use THAT. imagine how much $$ and CO2 is saved...

    28. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unions don't seem to be helping their workers much either. Overtime has gone away for a lot of white collar jobs, and most likely the 40 hour work week will go back to 60 hours in a couple years... hell, even the weekend is in jeopardy in most companies.

      We have gone full circle, back to the gilded age of the early 1900s. Welcome to Upton Sinclair's Jungle... and don't eat the sausage.

    29. Re:Back in the day... by Steve525 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously, the week after the grounding of all flights, the air was clearer than it has been in decades. We really have to cut back on useless air travel - it's a "luxury" our children will be paying for, and cursing us for. Take a train, take a boat, take some TIME and enjoy it - getting there is supposed to be half the fun.

      Seriously, you can't be serious. Maybe you are a student with months of vacation a year, but the rest of us simply don't have the time. An hour of air travel (actual flight time) equals a day of travel by other means.

      No air travel for me would mean...
      No vacations further than 2 days car/train travel.
      No conferences or meetings further than 1 day car/train travel.
      Many fewer visits to my parents (although my wife might consider this a good thing).

      That's not to say if prices go way up, people won't adjust. People flew much less in the 60's. Although I don't think we'll get to that point, we will surely see people fly less as costs go up. To expect people to take a major step backward and give it up completely is ridiculous.

      Also, note that air travel fuel efficiency is about 50-100 mpg per passenger. So, having everyone drive around in cars doesn't save anything. Trains, boats, and buses are indeed more efficient.

    30. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If planes were to be severely curtailed, there'd be a LOT more impetus for high-speed rail, which is also a lot more energy-efficient. The distance is 8,016 km. At 320 km./hr., you're looking at 25 hours. Already, there are plans for California to build a 320km/hr rail system ...

    31. Re:Back in the day... by lgw · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Non-unionized airlines in America pay better and have better working conditions that the unionized ones. Unions were an answer for a different millenium.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    32. Re:Back in the day... by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1, Redundant

      How would you severely curtail planes in a free society?

    33. Re:Back in the day... by Digital+End · · Score: 1

      I 100% disagree with you... CRAP!

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.
    34. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      i was in mexico city that week...
      the siar stayed pretty dirty :>

    35. Re:Back in the day... by Steve525 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And somehow the country did not grind to a halt and fall apart.

      True, but how often did people get to travel to the other side of the globe (or country if it's large like the US) for the heck of it? Reasonably priced air travel allows people to see much of the world that they wouldn't get to otherwise. Yes, this is progress!
    36. Re:Back in the day... by Illbay · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Well, not so much in the 1960s. By then, air travel was a standard mode of travel for any businessman, like my father who was a twenty-something salesman in the chemical business back then and flew constantly. We'd all get dressed up, us boys in our short pants and white shirts with bow ties, Mom in her dress, and go drop off or pick up Daddy at the Airport.


      Of course, I'll now get modded down extensively, but the REAL reason for the problem today is that (a) in general we have a lower level of civility in society, and (b) this stems from a much lower level of RELIGION in family and individual life.

      Since everyone's "out for number one" now, it follows that all those "number twos" better get the h*ll out of our way. There is no direct relation between general prosperity - and the U.S. as a whole is FAR more prosperous today than fifty years ago - and civil behavior. There IS a relationship between faith and values, however.

      --
      Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    37. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      our buddies in saudi arabia seem to be doing a damn good job at it.

      more airlines have failed in the last 6 months than in the 5 years post 9/11. and we aint done yet!

    38. Re:Back in the day... by berashith · · Score: 1

      so, 10 shades of gray then ?

    39. Re:Back in the day... by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      The inability to see more than two choices - some other option than what is and what was - is a very large indicator of unintelligence.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    40. Re:Back in the day... by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      Wait, I don't get it. Why would I want to be on a boat somewhere near rio with your family and friends. I want to be OFF a boat IN rio with MY family and friends.

      --

      -Bucky
    41. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      >>> getting there is supposed to be half the fun.

      sez who?

      if I have to be at 3 meetings in 3 diff citues in the same week, i aint got the time to have all that fun.

    42. Re:Back in the day... by bucky0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They don't have the money to get the trans-american highway to be passable throughout central/south america, what makes you think they will be able to engineer a high speed rail line that works right?

      --

      -Bucky
    43. Re:Back in the day... by quanticle · · Score: 1

      Perhaps in the US or Europe, but certainly not in the third world. I'll give you an example. My grandfather is a civil engineer in India. When he went off to school in Australia, he did so by ship, despite coming from a middle class family with a substantial amount of savings. Fact is, flying was extremely expensive before the '80s/'90s, and, unless you had significant savings or a corporate sponsor, you didn't fly unless it was an emergency.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    44. Re:Back in the day... by zippthorne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's quite simple. It's called "junket." They're not just meeting with the other execs. They're getting an international vacay in on the company dime. It's pretty standard practice to screw your shareholders whenever you get the chance.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    45. Re:Back in the day... by russotto · · Score: 1

      I'm lazy (hence posting on slashdot) , but my employer still expects me to show up about 49 weeks a year. Taking a week to get somewhere and a week to get back leaves me a week there, which is a pretty poor vacation.

    46. Re:Back in the day... by Applekid · · Score: 1

      Seriously, the week after the grounding of all flights, the air was clearer than it has been in decades. We really have to cut back on useless air travel - it's a "luxury" our children will be paying for, and cursing us for. So, the air was cleaner than in all those decades with just one week of not flying planes?

      I fail to see how our children would curse us for something that can be undone in a week.

      </literalisticscum>

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    47. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      What? don't get it.

      RyanAir
      EasyJet
      Laker....

      Europe is the world epicenter for low cost carriers.

    48. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't ever take time, how can you ever have time?

    49. Re:Back in the day... by maxume · · Score: 1

      If you were lazier you would find a job that only required you to show up to work 40 weeks (or whatever). I realize this isn't particularly practical (despite being a somewhat goal of mine), but part of the reason it isn't practical is that much of society is obsessed with productivity.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    50. Re:Back in the day... by vtcodger · · Score: 1


      ***Taking a boat across the Atlantic or Pacific is right out; even when there was still regular passenger service, it took more than a month to cross the Atlantic.***

      Perhaps a little research? I believe that they quit booking passengers on HMS Mayflower sometime around 1620.

      ***Whoever said that never traveled through the midwest or the great plains. Or across an ocean.***

      Maybe they didn't, but I have. The big liners took 5-6 days or so to cross the Atlantic. (The QE2 took 4days 16hrs on its maiden journey). Trains across the US take less (The SuperChief travelled between LA and Chicago in less than two days). My last cross country air trip took three days and was a hell of a lot less fun than either ship or rail. I'm not against air travel for long trips, but I think you overvalue your time and don't really appreciate how much misery you are voluntarily subjecting yourself to. Not that there's anything wrong with masochism you understand, but wouldn't hammering nails into your hand be faster and cheaper if all you want is a good dose of pain?

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    51. Re:Back in the day... by cduffy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why use it at all? I've yet to run into a situation where videoconferencing is appropriate but a phone call (possibly coupled with out-of-band data exchange) won't do.

      The thing is, there are cases where neither videoconferencing nor a phone call is a substitute for direct interaction. Visiting the family for a holiday and sharing meals with them is an entirely different experience than making a phone call; claiming that telepresence as currently implemented is an adequate substitute for physical presence is clearly bogus.

      Likewise, if you're about to claim that watching an A/V feed is an adequate substitute for attending a professional conference, I suggest that you're missing a very large part of the point of being present for such events.

    52. Re:Back in the day... by Stook · · Score: 1

      It's not just about the vacation or the inability to use modern technology to achieve the same end result, but also the culture of the other parties. There are many places where you have to establish a personal relationship and a feeling of trust before you can even begin business negotiations. That you can't do over email.

      That aside, while you can communicate outside of a physical presence, being there and working with the actual people still tends to prove more efficient. This statement comes from personal experience managing projects for a national company with multiple offices. If I have 4 people on my team, one in each timezone, the team is much more efficient if we all get together in one spot and just do what needs to be done.

    53. Re:Back in the day... by maxume · · Score: 1

      As you point out, people who can pay for it will never get there.

      I was mostly riffing on 'severely limited time' because time limitations are almost always a result of attitude and choices, not circumstances, or at least largely a result of attitude and choices.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    54. Re:Back in the day... by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      > Are you near death, obsessed with productivity or under heavy obligations?

      No, I'm just concerned for the environment as well as my time, so I fly wherever I can.

      Distance between LHR and JFK is 5555 km. This is about 37.5% of a 747's range, so assuming it would need a similar percentage of its maximum fuel, this means it will use 91252 liters of fuel. At about 450 passengers, this is 202.8 liters/passenger. Jet fuel density is about 0.8 kg/L.

      A Freedom class ship uses about 12800 kg of fuel per hour. Traveling for six days, this is 1843200 kg, or 421.8 kg/passenger for maximum capacity.

      These calculations are somewhat rough as those are different types of fuel and one could argue that releasing the pollution high in the atmoshpere is worse, but overall, sailing won't achieve anything, except perhaps wasting everyone's time.

    55. Re:Back in the day... by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1

      Is that enough to make a rail infrastructure build out cost effective?

    56. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      me thinks so!

    57. Re:Back in the day... by gurps_npc · · Score: 0, Troll
      The US is the ONLY developed religious country in the world. The US consistently has much HIGHER number of religious people than all other developed people. It also has much LESS civility in society.

      Yeah, I know you personally like to engage in wishful thinking, that religion makes people nicer.

      I suggest you take a look at

      a. History.

      b. The middle east (the single highest concentration of religious people outside of Vatican City

      There is a clear relationship between faith and values.

      Unfortunately, it is NOT the one you wish was true. Instead, there are it is the opposite. The more religious you are, the more you believe that you are right and everyone else is wrong (after all, they don't go to your church), and the less civil you are to the unbelievers.

      P.S. I consider myself a religious man.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    58. Re:Back in the day... by initdeep · · Score: 1

      living in the "great plains" i can see you've never done more than just fly on by have you......

      you're missing a lot of really cool stuff.

    59. Re:Back in the day... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      To make it accessable to the users here, remember the old days of the internet when AOL wasn't yet. Who had access? Universities, research labs and really, really rich people who could afford it.

      As a European (the broadband and "internet for all" boom came rather late here), you could see that very well. If you met a moron online pre-2000, it was invariably someone from the US. Why? No, not because the US people are in some way less intelligent. It was simply due to no affordable ISPs in Europe outside of universities.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    60. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's quite simple. It's called "junket." They're not just meeting with the other execs. They're getting an international vacay in on the company dime. It's pretty standard practice to screw your shareholders whenever you get the chance.

      Hahha, it's true. Whenever we travel with the higher ups we're always eating $80 steak. Which I doubt even these guys would put out for if it was their own dime.
    61. Re:Back in the day... by bucky0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      god damnit, I hate snide little 'proverbs' like that.

      It's not an issue of taking time off. I've traveled to either Brazil or Europe (sometimes both) every year since 2002 (around the age I could travel on my own). I very nearly am going to need new pages in my passport.

      I take time off, I'm a student, I get breaks. But given that I have a finite amount of time to take off, I would MUCH rather spend that time with my family than sitting on a boat with a bunch of strangers.

      What kind of point were you trying to make, anyway?

      --

      -Bucky
    62. Re:Back in the day... by DuctTape · · Score: 1
      Well, back in the 60s you got dressed up in a suit and tie to change your underwear. I remember getting dressed up to:
      • go to church
      • go downtown
      • go to a restaurant
      • ride a train
      • fly in a plane
      • visit relatives
      • visit pretty much anybody else
      • go to school (scratch the sport jacket and tie)

      Sneakers (we called them that in the good ol' days) were bad for your feet--doctors said so--so you only wore them for athletic events, and you took them off right afterward since they weren't civilized clothing.

      But now we don't give a flip. I don't think that it was necessarily due to the lower level of religion in life since we had just as many hypocrites back then as we did now. I guess we just weren't in your face about it, and not as much, "Me first!" about it either.

      DT

      --
      Is this thing on? Hello?
    63. Re:Back in the day... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      living in the "great plains" i can see you've never done more than just fly on by have you......

      you're missing a lot of really cool stuff.

      Like corn! And cows!
    64. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      but imagine how many freq flyer miles us meeting makers would lose.

      so sad :L

    65. Re:Back in the day... by WinDoze · · Score: 1

      There's one thing I never got: How is having non-transferable tickets a cost saver for the airline? It could well be, I just don't get it.

    66. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      hey - let me get this straight... in europe, they work 40 weeks a year, they travel more, their hull loses are less,
      and they have no terminal chaos.

      so we need to learn from THEM!!

      and know this... they have privatized the air traffic control system!!!!

    67. Re:Back in the day... by Mortirer · · Score: 0

      "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few" It wasn't Jesus that said that.

      --
      Curiosity killed the cat, but cats have 9 lives.
    68. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      so true!!

      do you know what some of theses union leaders make????

      All NY tech peolple share this: THEY HATE UNIONS!!!! Roll-outs take 10X longer in union buildings.

    69. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anti-Aircraft Guns?

      Now DHS will be after me for sure!

    70. Re:Back in the day... by AdamThor · · Score: 1

      Parent (go AC!) has the key.

      You can discuss wether 'getting there is half the fun'. But it seems to me that 'high margin, low volume' seems to work, while 'low margin, high volume' does not. This as an industry wide strategy, not an individual company one.

      --
      -- "Oh. This guy again."
    71. Re:Back in the day... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Take a train, take a boat, take some TIME and enjoy it - getting there is supposed to be half the fun.
      To take the train implies the existence of a train. Amtrak offers a pitifuly meaningless "service" in the US (well, outside of the northeast). For people to start to take the train, there would have to be trains to begin with...
    72. Re:Back in the day... by Illbay · · Score: 1

      I believe it was Mr. Spock, actually.

      --
      Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    73. Re:Back in the day... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      How would you severely curtail planes in a free society?
      The same way you curtail monster trucks on interstates: by law.
    74. Re:Back in the day... by Number6.2 · · Score: 2, Funny

      So...let me get this straight.

      The reason why coach is the new steerage, and airline travel is the new Middle Passage, is because we have not embraced Jesus as Lord and Savior?

      And here I've been sending all my complaints to Customer Service. No wonder I have not gotten any results. Pass the Kool Aid, friend, and we'll all drink up.

      --
      "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" --Voltaire
    75. Re:Back in the day... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      Taking that much travel time would mean I would be unable to travel to visit my family or convince my employer to send me to a conference... simply because the lost income (for myself or my employer) corresponding with the travel costs in question would be too great to justify the expense.
      Therefore, you're not as big of a shot as you'd think you are...
    76. Re:Back in the day... by russotto · · Score: 1

      It's a lot of work to find a job which only requires to show up to work 40 weeks (particularly as I have neither the aptitude for nor interest in teaching). I'm too lazy to do it. But if one just happens to drop into my lap...

    77. Re:Back in the day... by Illbay · · Score: 1
      You're going off-topic. The question was regarding PASSENGER behavior, not the quality of service provided by airlines.


      And I actually said nothing about any specific religion. Religious precepts are generally similar in their most fundamental aspects. Every world religion has a version of "the Golden Rule," for example.

      "Treating others as you wish to be treated" would seem to preclude "air rage," don't you think?

      --
      Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    78. Re:Back in the day... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      Of course, I'll now get modded down extensively, but the REAL reason for the problem today is that (a) in general we have a lower level of civility in society, and (b) this stems from a much lower level of RELIGION in family and individual life.
      Instead of modding you down, I'm going to roast & flame you extensively.

      I was carefully brought up in the total absence of religion, yet, I still feel bad when I reluctantly work myself up to be a douchebag when the need arises.

      Now, pray tell, how does religion prevents douchebaggry?

    79. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      Between many (most?) cities in the continental US, there are no passenger trains or boats. Try again.

      And whose fault is that? Sounds like there's a need to develop a more efficient transportation infrastructure. If the asians and europeans can do it, why can't the US?

    80. Re:Back in the day... by renoX · · Score: 1

      >(a) in general we have a lower level of civility in society, and (b) this stems from a much lower level of RELIGION in family and individual life.

      [sarcasm]Of course, the only way to have moral and civility is through religion[/sarcasm]
      *Sigh*, I'm French and we have a quite high percentage of atheist/agnostic, and you know what?
      Our society isn't less civil that the North American' one..
      There are some North European countries which have even more atheist/agnostic than us and guess what?
      Their society is even more advanced (less violent & more civil)!

      But logic is probably too much to ask to religious people (by definition).

    81. Re:Back in the day... by jollyreaper · · Score: 4, Funny

      My time is a severely limited quantity; And yet you're posting on Slashdot. ;) ...while on the toilet, using an iphone. Even when he's on Slashdot, he's getting shit done.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    82. Re:Back in the day... by ravenshrike · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Firstly, there's a slight difference between religiousness and fanaticism. Secondly, the problem has much less to do with religion and much more with the collapse of our education system since the early 1900s. The quality's been worse every decade, and things have gone quicker into the shitter with the introduction of the Dept. of Ed.

    83. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      An hour of air travel (actual flight time) equals a day of travel by other means.

      That is SO bullshit. If you're travelling less than 4 hours by air, you're quicker to take a train in any place that has a modern transit system (like europe), because of the hassles at the terminals, etc.

      Also, note that air travel fuel efficiency is about 50-100 mpg per passenger.

      ... and I beat that when I carry 3 passengers in my car. Big fucking deal. Rail is still more energy-efficient at moving people, and it's a lot easier to switch rail to green power (electric from hydro dams, for example), than it is to switch millions of cars.

      Current high-speed trains can do over 300km/hr. That should be able to take you anywhere in continental North America in less than a day. The problem is, there is no will to buck the vested interests (air and auto) to make it happen.

    84. Re:Back in the day... by cduffy · · Score: 1

      Who said I thought I was a big shot?

    85. Re:Back in the day... by mcrbids · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Business people need to get over this prehistoric desire to go pick fleas off fellow apes if they want to sign deals with them. We have broadband, phones, and webcams, you should be flying much less now for business than you did 10 years ago.

      Yes, because all those other mediums replace the need to meet face-to-face. Right. Just like the Internet will destroy the parcel post (it did the opposite) and the computer will eliminate paper. (we use more now than ever before)

      I have a heavily distance-based business. I routinely deal with people hundreds of miles away, I do remote desktops and virtual trainings as a matter of course. My laptop is my office, my phone is my lifeline. Does this mean I fly less than ever before? Quite the opposite - I fly rather frequently, despite the virtual sessions, webcams, conference calls, email, and remote desktop support sessions.

      Sometimes, there simply is no replacement for meeting face to face. Yeah, phone calls work for things like talking through a problem, but there is no replacement for being there in the flesh, with all the innuendo, sideways glances, winks, and hand-gestures that webcams approximate but ultimately fail to deliver.

      So despite investing heavily in technologies to reduce our travel budget, and despite the effectiveness of these tools, our travel budget remains hefty. Showing up in person is like wearing nice clothes to work - it shows that you are serious, and that your intention is to make things work. And so we show up, and our company continues to grow profitably.

      And seriously - what difference is a $250 airline tickets, $150 hotel, and $75 car rental fees for a $50,000/year contract going to make? Given that choice, you sit back and enjoy the (prehistoric) flight!

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    86. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      the old style junkets are ending.

      2o yrs ago, doctors belched and went to hawaii on the pharma companies $$$$$

      now, it is really hard to justify that with SoX and other regulations.

    87. Re:Back in the day... by Jherek+Carnelian · · Score: 1

      Reasonably priced air travel allows people to see much of the world that they wouldn't get to otherwise. Yes, this is progress! And a disease vector!
    88. Re:Back in the day... by Lurker2288 · · Score: 1

      As Hugh Laurie's character said in a recent episode of the TV program 'House,' "Rational arguments don't work on religious people. That's why they're religious."

    89. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      no self-respecting vulcan would ever say such a thing like dat :>

    90. Re:Back in the day... by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 2, Interesting
      My family lives in Brazil (I'm a dual citizen), if it would take me a month each way, (two weeks being generous) to get me from nashville, TN to Rio de Janeiro, I would never get to see my family.

      I think the difference is that cheap airfare has resulted in an expectation that people are able to fly 'home' repeatedly and cheaply. In the 60s, if you'd left Brazil and moved to America you probably would have resolved yourself to the fact you wouldn't have seen your family for a few years. Flying would have been too expensive and other options would have taken too long. Fast forward 40 years and people *expect* to be able to fly everywhere cheaply.

      My father moved to Vancouver, Canada from England in 1964. He didn't return to England for 8 years. Why? It was too expensive.

      I think as the era of 'cheap flights' comes to end (due to higher fuel prices) people will have to once again change their mindsets and expect that unlimited cheap travel is a thing of the past...

    91. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      Maybe its time to analyse WHY you have to go to 3 different places for meetings, when teleconferencing is so much easier, cheaper, etc.

    92. Re:Back in the day... by Illbay · · Score: 1
      But logic is probably too much to ask to religious people.


      That must be an example of that "civility" that you were telling us about, n'est-ce pa?

      --
      Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    93. Re:Back in the day... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well, I am one of those that usually doesn't enjoy the travel, I prefer to be at the destination for most of my time.

      Hell, I don't even drive on trips more than 5+ hours away...unless I'm going to be at the destination for 3 or more days....

      I like to fly.....I mean, I don't want to spend more that 2 days on a trip/vacation doing travel, those are lost days.

      Speaking of...most all of my travel is on Southwest Airlines....I have to guess all the horror stories and all are on other airlines. I've never had problems with SWA. They run on time, I've not been bumped from a flight...I think my luggage has never been lost, although it was delayed once...and I got it back quickly. I have no complaints with them and from what I read they are about the highest rated airline in most all categories of customer satisfaction.

      Why can't the other airlines switch to SWA's business model? It seems to work.

      My only bitch is....I kinda miss the first come first serve thing they had with the boarding lines, it was kinda fun to get tho the gate early and "camp out" in line. I guess the newer way with line number on the boarding pass isn't bad....but, I must say....I do dislike the new business class ticket that lets you spend a little more money, and jump to the head of the line. I like everyone having the same chance to check in early and get on the plane first.

      But, other than that....I can't say that my experience flying in the past years have been much of anything but kind of pleasant once I get on the plane. I like to get on first, and hit the seats on the middle escape aisle...where they have the most leg room. I can then pop out the laptop, get a drink and watch dvd's (my fav to watch is a bootleg of the '72 Stones tour, "Ladies and Gentlement The Rolling Stones")...

      One last thing...ALWAYS remember to be kind to your flight attendants. They are your bartenders in the air!!

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    94. Re:Back in the day... by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      "Take a train, take a boat"

      As an environmental or efficiency argument, that's a loser. Moving masses of people and goods via air is cost efficient in comparison to rail or ship, not to mention safer. Time has a value as well, and not just sentimental value. And trains and ships can't get you to as many destinations as aircraft can. If you magically grounded all aircraft, suddenly, travelers would have to supplement that rail and boat travel with land travel of some kind... probably via cars. Even if more people took the bus, they use a lot of fuel too.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    95. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      got to fly in the consultants to do that!!!

    96. Re:Back in the day... by renoX · · Score: 1

      Saying the truth is perfectly civil, even if it hurts when you hear it..

    97. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      The problem is that not ALL the damage can be undone in a week, or even a generation. For example, this summer, they're predicting that the ice cap on the north pole will melt. The feedback mechanism means that, once that happens, its much more likely to accelerate.

      Ditto resource depletion.

      Ditto pollutants in the food chain.

    98. Re:Back in the day... by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1

      Go ahead and propose the written law. I'd like to see that.

    99. Re:Back in the day... by cduffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...actually, there's a different way to interpret that: If I actually were a bigshot, the business cost of my unavailability (on account of increased travel times) would be amplified, making my unavailability more, rather than less, unpalatable.

    100. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      To take the train implies the existence of a train. Amtrak offers a pitifuly meaningless "service" in the US (well, outside of the northeast). For people to start to take the train, there would have to be trains to begin with...

      Sounds like an infrastructure program to rival the interstate buildout of the 1950's.

      Especially since it's simpler to electrify a rail line (been done) than it is to electrify and set up the infrastructure for tens of millions of cars (never been done).

    101. Re:Back in the day... by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      While I don't disagree that our education system has collapsed I don't think that is the cause of the loss of civility. (Education has failed mainly due to the local control in my opinion - with local control you get different systems, some of which are great, and others suck. For example, religious people insist on teaching creationism.)

      The main cause of loss of civility (which is partly real and partly false memory) are two fold:

      1. Population increase (real loss). It is easy to be nice when there are few other people around. The more people that are around, the more times they will get in your way/annoy you. For example, if you are driving and you are cut off one time, no big deal. If you are driving and you get cut off twelve times on the way to work, it pisses you off and you start thinking of 'getting even'. It snowballs quickly.

      2.Expansion of people that 'count'. (memory loss) I.e. There used to be a huge amount of incivility that was ignored. There was a time when using the 'n' word was considered civil. The racial stuff is only a small part of it - class prejudice was really huge. If you were not rich enough to own your own property than those that owned land/horses/etc. were incredibally rude to you, and you yourself could be incredibally rude back to them. They excused their rudeness by saying you were not people of quality and did not 'count', while excusing your rudeness by saying "I told you he was a person of low quality". Similarly, when men politely held a door for woman but did not let them into medical school, this was considered being 'civil'. It wasn't.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    102. Re:Back in the day... by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1
      How is having non-transferable tickets a cost saver for the airline? It could well be, I just don't get it.

      Because it allows an airline to create a transferable ticket and sell it for more money. The baseline cheapest ticket is full of restrictions. As the prices increase, the restrictions come off.

    103. Re:Back in the day... by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 1

      I can think of one way. I don't claim that this way makes sense, but I could see some dumb PHB/MBA type thinking it would be smart. Say my family decides we want to go on a trip from LA to NY. We buy all the tickets but then something comes up where we can't go. Most (if not all) airlines make it difficult (if possible at all) to get a refund. So they made their money and we're out. One way we could get over that is to sell our tickets to somebody else. But since they are non-transferable, those people have to buy tickets from the airlines instead of from people who weren't going to use ours. Since airlines overbook, this isn't a problem.

      Even I think the above is somewhat contrived, but when you consider that all airlines overbook so much, and then consider how many times a flight is full, you have to figure that there are probably a few people for each flight that don't use the ticket they bought (and couldn't get a refund for) so the airline just made their money. If the tickets were transferable, then those people could scalp their tickets at the airport.

      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    104. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      Funny, but they manage to ship plenty of high-value stuff by boat, like cars. Also, the safety stats only make airplanes less deadly on a per-passenger-mile, not per-passenger-hour, basis. If people had to take airplanes to go to their neighbour 10 blocks away, and pilot them themselves, the aviation stats would be horrendous. Gonna use a helicopter? So much for fuel efficiency. There are many jobs airplanes just can't do, never mind do efficiently.

      We need a buildout of land transit. Airplanes (and the repeatedly-bankrupt airlines that operate them) won't make sense for most land travel for much longer.

    105. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      he week after the grounding of all flights, the air was clearer than it has been in decades. We really have to cut back on useless air travel - it's a "luxury" our children will be paying for

      So then you're saying that the air began recovering almost immediately?

    106. Re:Back in the day... by element-o.p. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmmm...Behind door one, we have "starve and be homeless with your (extended, I presume) family", door two is "have a job but never see your extended family" and hiding behind door three, we have "have a job, and periodically suffer through airline travel to spend time with your loved ones." Which one of these choices seems least irrational to you?

      I get your point, but to say that cduffy's choice is irrational is, well, irrational. I'm not in his shoes, so I don't know why it was necessary for him to live/work where he does, but there must be a reason, or he wouldn't be doing it.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    107. Re:Back in the day... by ATMD · · Score: 1

      Tax.

      --
      Nobody else has this sig.
    108. Re:Back in the day... by maxume · · Score: 1

      I don't accept that the overall shape of our society makes sense. A lot of it does, but a lot of it is just crazy, and the people doing the craziest stuff (I don't think cduffy is one of these...) are certainly behaving irrationally.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    109. Re:Back in the day... by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Speaking of the Middle East, I don't think you've actually been there. Middle Easterners are extremely civil and hospitable, much more so than many Americans I've met!

    110. Re:Back in the day... by FrameRotBlues · · Score: 1



      living in the "great plains" i can see you've never done more than just fly on by have you......

      you're missing a lot of really cool stuff.

      Like corn! And cows!

      And people who will stop and help you change your flat tire, instead of just honking at you or throwing trash at you.

      And bars where the patrons know how to have a good time and accept you for who you are, rather that what you wear or what you drive.
    111. Re:Back in the day... by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      I agree with you about physical presence. It would be weird to try to enjoy a Christmas meal together via video confrencing. Can you nail down exactly what it is, though? I'm hesitant to say that it's body language, because most of the body language can be seen when it is in view of the camera. Maybe it might be called, "macro body language": something that occurs in a wider scope of what the camera can capture.

      I guess that I'm trying to visualize how a person would go about trying to test this to see exactly what the advantages are of a real physical presence.

    112. Re:Back in the day... by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      I'd like to make an off-topic comment. It won't validate or support your argument.

      You can go away for weekend retreats. Leave on a Friday, come back Sunday morning, and have the rest of the day for resting and preparing for Monday.

    113. Re:Back in the day... by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      You know, I just had a thought. I don't think that we are obsessed with productivity. It's that our employers require it of us. I suspect that we'd be out on the streets if we tried to take too much time off.

      I'd like to hear other people's feed back about that.

    114. Re:Back in the day... by FrameRotBlues · · Score: 1

      I personally don't believe you have to have religion to live by the Golden Rule. Morals and values can be taught without spirituality or belief in a higher power. Yes, many religions have the Golden Rule amongst their teachings, but they also have "Don't kill" and a host of other important human lessons. (Even animals follow a code of ethics.)

      I think this might be a lot like the chicken and the egg: Which came first, religion or morals & values? I get that some people really need religion in their lives, and that it gives them something that's missing in their lives otherwise, and that's great... for them. I just don't think the reason for the decline of morals and values and respect for their fellow man in this country can be attributed directly to lack of religion.

      I'd have an easier time running "capitalistic society" up the flagpole.

      It should be noted that I'm not religious in any way, shape, or form, but I am tolerant of other's views and opinions.

    115. Re:Back in the day... by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I think that I know what you mean. In some situations, it may actually use up more time, but may allow us to complete the work sooner. The idea is that if we add up all the travel time, and meeting time, then we might take, 2 days. On the other hand, if we take 5 minutes for 24 days to complete the task, it would amount to 120 minutes, which is equal to 2 hours. 24 business days is just over 1 calendar month.

      Imagine telling your customers that you'll take 1 calendar month to get back to them, while your competitor tells the same customers, that the competitors will get back to the customers in 2 days.

      I think that you hit the nail on the head.

      I think that that principle is what makes the internet so useful. It may take more time in certain situations, but it lets us get tasks out of the way earlier.

    116. Re:Back in the day... by cduffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's a research subject in and of itself -- certainly not something I'm qualified to speak on. It's an interesting thought experiment, though, to ponder whether it would be any different with a full-wall telescreen between each side (with an extremely high-quality video feed) and a table adjoining. Not being able to hug or shake hands or pass the turkey would be an adjustment -- but perhaps an acceptable one; I suppose one could try to determine, given such a setup, how much people would be willing to pay (or be inconvenienced) for physical presence after having enough time with such an arrangement for both sides to become accustomed to it.

      It might also be interesting to compare reactions between telepresence and physical presence separated by a wall with a (unopenable) window having the same dimensions as the telepresence screen; an experiment of that sort might help to isolate the aspect of telepresence which is less palatable (ie. 2D screen / mic-and-speakers vs. direct vision and actual voice, or the opportunity for physical contact).

    117. Re:Back in the day... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Buying in to it is a choice. The alternatives certainly are not any good, but it is still a choice.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    118. Re:Back in the day... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      "So despite investing heavily in technologies to reduce our travel budget, and despite the effectiveness of these tools, our travel budget remains hefty. Showing up in person is like wearing nice clothes to work - it shows that you are serious, and that your intention is to make things work. And so we show up, and our company continues to grow profitably."

      What the real problem is cheap travel creates business opportunities which create international dependencies which drive even more consumption. What happens is businesses constnatly want GROWTH, in order to do that you exploit the geometry of population sizes and markets you never had access to before, so everyone is going after a LARGER population then ever before, as businesses connect with even MORE of the earths 6.5 billion people it creates even more trade networks and stress on limited fuel resources.

    119. Re:Back in the day... by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      It's interesting that you mention the Mayflower. Even though it is off-topic, I went and looked up the travel times of the Mayflower. It was 2 months per trip. So I scrolled down to read about the travel time of the Mayflower 2, which made it across in 55 days in 1957. It seems that even with the same technology, we have improved travel times. I suspecet that this is because we have gained a lot of experience in ocean travel. It should have been obvious to the guy that you are replying to, and to us readers, that travel times have improved greatly.

      5 days to travel across the water sounds about right. I wouldn't be surprised that if it became urgent, then they could reduce that to 3.5 days without losing much efficiency.

      Regarding cross-country train travel, I made it across Canada, Halifax to Vancouver, in 5 nights, and 6 days. There was time to visit in Montreal, but I only stopped because of transfers and scheduling. Each consecutive night was spent on a train. I guess the point that I'm trying to get across is that even at a leisurely pace, train travel still isn't 1 month for transcontinental travel.

    120. Re:Back in the day... by shilly · · Score: 1

      It's progress for the people who travel, for a time. It's not progress for other people, by and large -- it's a net negative as it results in a global externality that we haven't the willpower to fix. And of course, that negative externality may come back to haunt all of us travellers too.

    121. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At a minimum of $15 million per mile (for low-speed rail, nonetheless), it's no wonder that no one is trying to duplicate the Interstate Highway System in the United States by rail. It would cost about $1 trillion...perhaps more...and still compete against the convenience of cars for short trips and the speed of planes for longer longer trips. At 300 km/hr, assuming no stops, crossing the US would take 13 hours. By plane it takes 5 hours.

      The US could definitely benefit from increased rail capacity, but it won't significantly displace air travel.

    122. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm too important and too busy to not fly

      Wow. Hydrocarbons are the most precious gift humans have ever received and you are using to get somewhere faster.

      But don't worry... pretty soon you can choose to fly or eat. Not both..

      Oh, and never mind all the little brown people that will die, so you can have your oil, just so you can get to your meeting.

      Fucker.

      How about a little History of Oil

    123. Re:Back in the day... by level99 · · Score: 4, Informative

      An hour of air travel (actual flight time) equals a day of travel by other means.

      That is SO bullshit. If you're traveling less than 4 hours by air, you're quicker to take a train in any place that has a modern transit system (like europe), because of the hassles at the terminals, etc.



      Sorry, but you are wrong. I used to live in Copenhagen - my family lives in Aalborg (both cities in Denmark, Europe). Driving from Copenhagen to Aalborg: 5 hours if you don't hit any congested roads. By train: 4,5 hours. Flying: 30 minutes (+ 30 minutes at the airport prior to departure). That killed your theory right there.

      Because of my work, I traveled to other European countries almost weekly. It takes considerably less time to fly from Copenhagen to Berlin, Cologne, Paris, Zurich, London, Amsterdam, Barcelona and most other cities I frequent. And in none, and I repeat NONE, of those cases would it be faster to go by train, car, bus or stand in the backyard and hope to be magically transported there.

      I was born and raised in Europe and there are many things about the region that I love. But traveling is not easier or different across Europe, than it is for me now that I live in the US and travel just as much. You could in some cases have a point with national travel in some European countries - but not cross border.
    124. Re:Back in the day... by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Have you priced a train trip recently? You could fly back and forth across the country 2 or 3 times for the cost of crossing it on train once.

      My wife had planned to take a cross country train trip (for business, but also for fun). Well, she crossed out the fun and took a plane after checking on the cost of a train.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    125. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your argument is flawed in that the fuel consumption also covers the hotel side of the ship.

      The ship also holds lots fewer passengers than it could, if the cabins were built smaller, with less luxury.

    126. Re:Back in the day... by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      Here are more thoughts about the topic.

      At a high school dance, would a stereotypcial nerd have the exact same benefit [or lack thereof, since we are typing about stereotypical nerds] as a nerd watching the dance on his home computer? I think that with a high tech system that provided the same amount of view, both nerds would be just as lonely, because being physically in the crowd means something. The next time you go to an amusement park or shopping mall, watch a group kids walking together. Obviously, there would be cultural differences, but in Canada, I'm sure that it's the same all across the board. Stereotypical cool teenagers will walk about 4 people wide, with the 2 coolest in the middle. The next 2 coolest will be on the outside, and the tag along will follow behind. I believe that the position is a huge status indicator and can actually make the person look dumb if he walks in the wrong position. An interesting thing to note is the facial expressions which give a good indicator of who is in charge. So in summary, I think that positioning is everything.

      Here's another cleaner and nicer example. Just yesterday, I went to a family gathering. It was all good. I couldn't help but feel that being there made a difference. My brother came late for legitimate reasons, I assume. When he did arrive, he ended up chatting with people at another part of the party. Just not seeing him physically beside me, and not hearing him near me, indicated that he was busy with other people. That's all fine, but I wonder if the high tech system can give us that information. Also, I noticed that I often looked around the party for about a second at a time, even though I never really lost my main focus. I don't think that the high tech systems of today allow us to quickly check out the room. This leads me to another point.

      Imagine seeing the Rubik's Cube for the first time. You might say, "Hey, can I see that?". So, your friend says, "Yeah, okay.", and then holds it in front of you, and then rotates it for you to see all of the sides, and then starts manipulating it for you to see. Frankly speaking, that would annoy me, because although the response was legitimate according to a literal interpretation to my request, it doesn't really give me what I want. I thought long and hard about that, when I first discovered the apparent problem. I think that it's because physically handling it will answer questions that I'm not consciously aware of. What kind of resistance does it have to turning? Is it slimey? Is it heavy? Does holding it a certain way make a difference to the physical perspective? Also, there is timing. When you want to know a certain answer, your friend could be trying to answer another question. Also, handling it yourself could answer most/all of the questions in an instant.

      Regarding the full-wall telescreen, I bet that good candidates would be people who don't hug and touch, because of cultural norms. I don't usually hug my family members a whole lot. I haven't hugged my relatives in decades, and I'm only 34. It would be an interesting experiment that I'd be willing to participate in.

      I was just about to submit this, but I just came up with more stuff. Perhaps a circular wall screen would make a difference. I remember at an Expo 86 pavillion, there was a movie inside. It was shown above everybody's head, around a circular room. In other words, the screen was a circle, and the people stood in the middle of the circle and watched the action. The main action was mostly on 1 part of the screen, and we'd feel that we really were a part of the film. This film took place at Christmas, and the grandparents arrived in the middle of the film, so we'd see somebody cross over and answer the door. We'd see Christmas lights, and blah blah blah. It was a great experience, because it allowed us to see what we wanted.

      That being said, physical contact is a huge part of interactions. I'm just trying to isolate how much benefit comes from being there, without touching phsically.

    127. Re:Back in the day... by HiThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wouldn't say that. I've seen plenty of bad unions (though more bad corporations).

      OTOH, AFAIK most of the problems with the air industry didn't really surface until Regan broke the Air Traffic Controllers strike...for safer working conditions. (Safer for the airplanes that they were controlling.)

      I wouldn't say that now the Air Traffic Controllers union is still trying to provide safe conditions for the traffic controlled. They might be, but they've learned that it's dangerous, so now they might just be trying to protect their jobs and screw the populace. (I haven't been paying attention for a decade or two.)

      Do I trust this book? On a first guess, no. OTOH, if I were interested enough, I might check into it's background, and perhaps I would then trust it. I sort of doubt it though. Places where I have any current information at all tend to disagree with it's analyses.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    128. Re:Back in the day... by onepoint · · Score: 1

      you need to add another fact to the hull loss issue. it's air miles per incident, and/or passenger death rate per hour of flight time and/or flight time per incident.

      I'm not knocking the report, but hull loss is and insurance stat, but the true risk is in the quotes from the carriers, and I hate to say it, but most USA flagged air carriers have a lower loss rate on the passenger side, cargo side it's almost equal with Europe.

      what I would like to see is how the stats are put together, since the only way to know who is the safest to fly is to know whom is quoted consistently the best insurance ( those guys know much more about risk, and they can figure out the stats).

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    129. Re:Back in the day... by quanticle · · Score: 1

      We're talking about "back in the day", as in before 1970.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
    130. Re:Back in the day... by Mortirer · · Score: 0

      And was spock moral? he didn't have religion, he had philosophy.

      --
      Curiosity killed the cat, but cats have 9 lives.
    131. Re:Back in the day... by Paperweight · · Score: 1

      Trains? Boats? Horse-drawn carts? Fuck that. Whatever happened to hopes for a better future? If we got our shit together we could have environmentally-friendly $100 flights lasting less than 6 hours between any two points on Earth.

    132. Re:Back in the day... by Paperweight · · Score: 1

      I think that today's unions work for the company's interests rather than the employees'.
      I worked for a major supermarket chain in Canada as a price checker. I made minimum wage, but after union dues I made less than minimum wage. On top of that, they wanted to pay price checkers more because they couldn't hire enough, but they couldn't do that either because of the union contract.

    133. Re:Back in the day... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Sometimes, there simply is no replacement for meeting face to face. Yeah, phone calls work for things like talking through a problem, but there is no replacement for being there in the flesh, with all the innuendo, sideways glances, winks, and hand-gestures that webcams approximate but ultimately fail to deliver.
      What business exactly requires innuendo and winks? People travel for business because they think they require it, not because they actually need it. Your suit analogy is perfect: people spend thousands of fancy suits that don't make fuck all difference than to pander to people's outdated preconceptions of what business is supposed to be.

      Of course, businessmen will always travel as long as they get a holiday on expenses.

    134. Re:Back in the day... by cliffski · · Score: 1

      "Showing up in person is like wearing nice clothes to work"

      I wear whatever I want to work, so do all my business partners and contractors, I presume, since I've never even seen pictures of them. Why do I care what they look like? So I can be judgemental about an artists looks or race/gender? I don't pay people to wink,nudge and wear a suit, I pay them to produce work.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    135. Re:Back in the day... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      So, are we all supposed to pay for the choices you made?

    136. Re:Back in the day... by epee1221 · · Score: 1

      That is SO bullshit. If you're travelling less than 4 hours by air, you're quicker to take a train in any place that has a modern transit system (like europe), because of the hassles at the terminals, etc.
      Direct path from Paris to Avignon is just over 350 miles. This took me just under 3 hours by TGV. Adding half an hour for terminal delay brings the total to 3.5 hours.

      Direct path from ORD to RDU is about 650 miles. This is two hours in the air. Adding 1.5 hours of terminal delay (on the long side, in my experience), this is 3.5 hours of travel to go almost twice as far.

      Maybe you ought to shorten your "4 hours by air" claim.
      --
      "The use-mention distinction" is not "enforced here."
    137. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sneakers (we called them that in the good ol' days) were bad for your feet--doctors said so--so you only wore them for athletic events
      So lemme get this straight... sneakers are harmful to your feet, so you only wear them when you need shoes that are helpful to your feet... yeah....

    138. Re:Back in the day... by Number6.2 · · Score: 1

      Good point. I apologize. And since you went the extra mile to reframe the point in a secular manner, rather than just be snakry like I was, I will add a "bravo".

      Gotta stop shooting from the hip.

      --
      "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him" --Voltaire
    139. Re:Back in the day... by CmdrGravy · · Score: 1

      and they have no terminal chaos.

      Terminal 5 anyone ?

    140. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      Exactly!!!!

      Until the early's 1960's unions were AWESOME!
      then they became establishment.

      they now are evil.

    141. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      ah..... those good old days :>

    142. Re:Back in the day... by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      T5 oh my!!

      But T5 is almost to normal now.
      Only a month of terminal chaos.

      us in the USA have to deal with terminal chaos for at least 10 more years.

    143. Re:Back in the day... by SETIGuy · · Score: 1

      Airline passengers were the very wealthy elites, now they're not. High fuel prices will keep the riff-raff out. "You BURNED it? What the fuck were you thinking?" -- Your grandkids when you tell them what you did with all that petroleum.
    144. Re:Back in the day... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Between many (most?) cities in the continental US, there are no passenger trains or boats. Try again.


      And whose fault is that? Sounds like there's a need to develop a more efficient transportation infrastructure. If the asians and europeans can do it, why can't the US?

      Population Density - take Germany, which is roughly the size of Georgia, N and S Carolina combined. It has about 4x the population and many more large cities. The distances between cities and large groups of people is small enough so rail travel is efficient and relatively quick.

      To get the same population you'd need 4x the area on the East Coast (or West Coast) and much more between them, and the distances from major cities would make travel time prohibitive; compared to air.

      The US is much larger and centers of commerce much farther apart so rail travel simply isn't as efficient or fast; and by necessity would bypass many smaller cities since the traffic would not support the cost of laying track.

      You do see rail service in areas where there is enough traffic and short distances so it is competitive with air - such as the DC - NYC - BOS corridor where the Acela is a viable alternative to flying.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    145. Re:Back in the day... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      ... and I beat that when I carry 3 passengers in my car. Big fucking deal. Rail is still more energy-efficient at moving people, and it's a lot easier to switch rail to green power (electric from hydro dams, for example), than it is to switch millions of cars.

      Just because it is easier to do one thing than another doesn't mean either is easy. Running and maintaining thousands of miles of overhead lines, and then getting the electricity to power the trains is not cheap; if it were more cost effective and reliable you'd see railroads dumping their diesel electrics for electric freight engines.

      As for hydro power being green, I guess it is unless you are a spawning fish.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    146. Re:Back in the day... by DuctTape · · Score: 1

      So lemme get this straight... sneakers are harmful to your feet, so you only wear them when you need shoes that are helpful to your feet... yeah....

      Yah, go figure. I was too young to note the irony, however.

      DT

      --
      Is this thing on? Hello?
    147. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      You have to maintain a LOT more electrical lines to supply millions of cars with recharging (and you can bet the local utilities will bitch about their voltage drops, peak drain, etc) than it is to maintain lines along a rail right-of-way, especially since that right-of-way usually doesn't have trees falling on lines due to storms, or outages caused by drunk drivers hitting utility poles.

      Also, railroads DO use electric where it's available, because it IS cheaper. We'll be re-introducing electric trams over the next decade, again because it's cheaper - even cheaper than running diesel buses over the long term.

    148. Re:Back in the day... by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      If you want to look at it that way, EVERYONE pays for EVERY choice that ANYONE makes.

      Unless you want everyone to move back to a primitive sustenance farming situation, where your actions will only affect your immediate surroundings, you'll have to accept that people living and doing the things people do has an effect on the world around us.

      I see you're typing on a PC, are we all supposed to pay for that choice you made? (with few exceptions) Producing electronics and shipping them 1/2way across the world has tons of externalities.

      --

      -Bucky
    149. Re:Back in the day... by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      Your suit analogy is perfect: people spend thousands of fancy suits that don't make fuck all difference than to pander to people's outdated preconceptions of what business is supposed to be. .. and as long as those preconceived notions exist, they'll have to be accounted for.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    150. Re:Back in the day... by mcrbids · · Score: 1

      I wear whatever I want to work, so do all my business partners and contractors, I presume, since I've never even seen pictures of them. Why do I care what they look like? So I can be judgemental about an artists looks or race/gender? I don't pay people to wink,nudge and wear a suit, I pay them to produce work.

      In other words, you aren't dealing with management. And don't tell me that management serves no purpose, since they're the ones providing the work that you are so busy paying others to produce.

      It may be that you are running a small business or enterprise where the management overhead can be kept slight, and for this you should be grateful.

      But organizations follow an order very similar to the nature of quantum mechanics: individual particles like photons, etc are very fast-moving and highly unpredictable. But as these individual particles collect to make atoms and molecures, the predictability of the whole increases dramatically. In a similar fashion as the size of organizations increase, the total amount of resistance to change, the total amount of inertia increases faster than the organizational size, making the overal position of the organization or business much more predictable.

      And that's when you need the winks, hand gestures, smiles, and nice clothes.

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    151. Re:Back in the day... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1


      You have to maintain a LOT more electrical lines to supply millions of cars with recharging (and you can bet the local utilities will bitch about their voltage drops, peak drain, etc) than it is to maintain lines along a rail right-of-way, especially since that right-of-way usually doesn't have trees falling on lines due to storms, or outages caused by drunk drivers hitting utility poles.


      Also, railroads DO use electric where it's available, because it IS cheaper. We'll be re-introducing electric trams over the next decade, again because it's cheaper - even cheaper than running diesel buses over the long term.

      Most of the infrastructure is already there for home charging of electrical vehicles using 110 or 220 volts.

      As for load, if most of the charging can be accomplished overnight and start after the PM a/c or heat spike it simply means more of a base load (which is good for baseloading plants as they don't have to load follow as much.

      While I realize electricity is often cheaper, if the infrastructure costs (in this case running overhead lines over thousands of miles of track and replacing diesel electric engines with electric ones )are too high compared to the savings then the initial investment will not b emade because the return is too small.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    152. Re:Back in the day... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1
      The existing infrastructure just cannot handle millions of people charging up their cars daily, even if they only do it on off-peak times, especially since there are days when there are NO off-peak times, like during heat waves, or cold snaps.

      http://www.hypercars.com/main.html

      A Prius at 46 MPG uses about 800 watt-hours per mile

      So, a commute of 30 miles each way is going to use 800 watt-hours * 60, or 48 kw. Charging that up between midnight and 6 am means a continuous draw, assuming ZERO loss in the charging circuit, of 8kw - 37 amps at 220 volts. You're not going to get the equivalent of 46mpg in snow, carrying a load, using the heater or ac, etc., and you're going to have charging inefficiencies, so 50 amps, or 11 kw/hr for 6 hours, or 66 kw-hrs per charge is a more reasonable load.

      http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/article.php?article_id=764

      he average American household consumes 11,040 kWh in an entire year

      So, you want to add 66 kw/hrs * 360, or 23,760 kw to the current demand of each customer. NO utility can handle a trippling of demand. Even taking the most optimistic usage (prius, no losses, no snow, no heat, no ac), you'd still more than double demand. Can't be done without rebuilding the whole distribution grid, right down to the transformers on each street.

    153. Re:Back in the day... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Considering your sources listed other cars closer to 300 Wh use (and much less for more experimental types); I'm not sure a "more than doubl(ing)" of demand is a realistic estimate. At 300 Wh it's more like 8000kWh, somewhere around about an 12 - 20 amp load or so; depending on losses.

      Improvements in battery technology would no doubt come once millions of cars were sold; as well as the supporting charging technology.

      I agree it will add to the need to build more power plants as we are already nearing the capacity of current plants.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    154. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We'd all get dressed up, us boys in our short pants and white shirts with bow ties, Mom in her dress, and go drop off or pick up Daddy at the Airport.

      Not too many years back, some relatives had about an hour layover late in the evening in San Francisco on a flight from Hawaii to Arizona. Since it wasn't long enough for us to take them out to dinner at SFO, we simply put together a picnic dinner, went to the gate where they arrived, waited a few minutes for other passengers to disperse, then laid out a blanket near the seating and had a very enjoyable dinner and visit. Try that one now.

      Today, I routinely drop people off at the departure curb and go home. There's no longer any fun in going inside. They have to get through security as quickly as possible in case there are any hangups to deal with. I can't get past that place, so there's no point in even getting out of the car.

      For arrivals, since I live close to the airport, I tell people to call me as soon as they get off the plane and I'll be circling around near the arrival exit point. Circling because the airport Nazi cops at SFO are rabid about threatening you with all sorts of "terrorist-related" crap if you take time to pull out a handkerchief if you have to sneeze. They'd rather you just leave the splat on the windshield and take care of it somewhere off airport property.

      I wonder what they're like at home after eight full hours of bitching at the public.

    155. Re:Back in the day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, because any criticism of a union equates to an endorsement of a regressive workers-be-damned plutocracy.

      Considering what that born-in-hell bastard Reagan did to their predecessors, the unions should damned well be suspicious of anything the government tries to foist off on them. Even if I do consider all ATCs hired after the Reagan purge to be nothing but permanent scabs.

      Don't ever forget that it was the unions (and the blood shed by their members) who brought us the forty hour work week. And no children in the workplace. Too bad the younger generation has knuckled under to management jerks and their "at will employee" canard. They've pissed away their inheritance and are now reaping fifty to eighty hour work weeks as their reward.

      They've ignominiously surrendered in the battle against the American working man (properly pronounced workinman, as Will Durst will tell you) that started with Reagan. It ended a few years later when SCOTUS came down with their pusillanimous decision that, yes, age discrimination was indeed forbidden, but if a corporation could assert an "economic justification" like (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) a younger worker being cheaper than an older worker, they were free to fire the old guy with no legal repercussions.

      You bought into it, kids; now lay in it and try to get medical insurance or a decent, dignified retirement out of your Faustian bargain.

    156. Re:Back in the day... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Yes, congratulations, you can take everything to the extreme and your argument seems sensible.

    157. Re:Back in the day... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Actually, you might want to check that. I've heard that trains can actually be worse than cars, and a plane on a long trip is much more efficient than a car. While a short hop flight isn't too efficient, a plane at cruising altitude is actually quite efficient.

      Then again, if you can design a high speed rail line to be both efficient(light?) and fast, it would be extremely efficient.

      Though this tends to say rail is quite efficient, though using the estimater for the plane shows that the emmisions drop down to half that of the car, solo driver, with a long trip.

      A critical point of this estimate might be occupation - the rail estimate assumes 50 passangers per car. Now, I haven't ever used commercial rail, so I have no idea if it's 100% capacity, or 25%. I think 50% might be it.

      If you start up a cross-continental rail service and get 50% less occupancy on average, you'd be competing with planes for efficiency.

      The occupancy rate is actually to the advantage of the plane, I think.

      Don't take me wrong - I think that we NEED high speed passanger rail, not to mention something like a PRT system in the cities(and probably even running between them). Still, I think that a east coast line, west coast line, then two cross continentals would be a very good idea.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    158. Re:Back in the day... by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      Who gets to decide what is acceptable and what isn't?

      What's different between our actions that allows mine to be chastised and yours to be immune? It's not like I said that your breathing was a harm to society. That would be extreme. Pointing out that using a computer (I'm going to assume that you live in either the US or EU due to your english level) which probably has chips that were produced in foundries in Taiwan, shipped to China, assembled and then shipped again around the world to wherever you lived might be equally harmful as taking a flight from US->EU. I don't think it's an absurd stretch to say the two actions have a comparable amount of environmental impact.

      So, again, who gets to decide what is acceptable and what isn't? What criteria does that individual (or group) use?

      --

      -Bucky
    159. Re:Back in the day... by LihTox · · Score: 1

      What we're missing in America are good alternatives to the cross-country flight, slow or otherwise, specifically rail. I am a great fan of Amtrak, but it needs more routes, more frequent service, and better on-time records to adequately replace the airlines. And taking the train from Dallas to Chicago (for example) means an overnight trip, which means either (a) sleeping in coach (those seats are great for sitting in but I can't sleep if I'm not lying down, even if I have two seats to myself), or (b) getting a Roomette (which cost an additional $200 or more, bringing the price far over that for an equivalent plane ticket, and availability is limit). If they could either lower the cost of the Roomette, OR come up with some other way for me to sleep lying down (Japanese-style compartments maybe? use only for sleeping, discount rate during the day), then a cross-country train trip would be a lot more interesting to me.

      Also, a lot of us just don't have a lot of free time for travel: Americans have less vacation time than just about anyone. And if you told your boss that you were going to tack on a couple of extra days to your business trip to NYC because you didn't want to fly, he would look at you askance. This is going to have to be systemic change, not something individuals can do easily by themselves.

  2. Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Air flight is cheap enough that it has become the trailways bus of today. The reason everything was so nice and dressed up because it was so expensive it selected out the riff-raff.

    I know it doesn't fit the current lefty memes, but deregulation made air flight the everyman's mode of transportation.

    1. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by seattle-pk · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up - it's well documented that flying was an activity limited to those of high society back in the day. Like most all technologies, what is cost-prohibitive at one era generally becomes affordable the next. Cars were once a privilege, rather than a right that most Americans look at them today. Once they became cheap however, that's when congestion started and road rage emerged. This isn't a post to defend the airlines industry or the regulators, far from it, but it weakens the author's legitimate arguments when he uses an invalid comparison.

    2. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by lymond01 · · Score: 0, Troll

      The reason everything was so nice and dressed up because it was so expensive it selected out the riff-raff.

      I don't see many of the near homeless riding in coach, and I daresay that while first-class is fairly quiet (or the curtain is sound-proof), anyone can be an ass. Money and/or social standing has no bearing on how much of a jerk you can be in any given situation.

    3. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not just that. For those who have no idea what an absolute mess our airline system is, you can read this book, but for more entertainment value, I also recommend Airframe by Michael Crighton. Yes, it's Crighton's usual stuff -- heavy on technical details, some of which may be flubbed. But he does grasp the complexities of air travel in the U.S. today.

      We have deregulation, which lead to more passengers, more airlines, more competition, cheapter flights, etc. -- but at the same time, we failed to upgrade our infrastructure in a timely fashion. This includes our airports and the planes themselves -- many of which have been in the sky more than twice their intended service life. On top of that, our air-traffic control system is so out of date, it is being featured on an episode of Cavemen.

      Anyway think of it like this: you have a system now that only upper management (aobut 100 users) uses. Now, you intend to open up the system for all 30,000 users in the entire enterprise. But instead of upgrading, management hems and haws about the cost and so you don't upgrade anything except to add couple of new front-end servers, and the backend servers don't get upgraded at all.

      That's what's happened to the airline industry.

    4. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I must laugh when I hear the word "deregulation" used to describe one of the most heavily-regulated industries in existence. As if the slightest little step towards "deregulation" qualifies as 100% deregulated.

    5. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by ZaskarX · · Score: 3, Funny

      Airlines should take it a step further and make air travel even more spartan (and cheaper), remove the cushy seats and install benches made out of canvas webbing. Rip out all of the sound insulation to make more room and give passengers ear protection when they board. Make passengers pay by weight, you go online and declare your total weight (body and baggage) and pay a price, if you show up and are heavier than what you declared you pay a big penalty . No drinks, mini pretzels, and the minimum number of flight attendants required by law. Flight attendants would carry tasers to subdue air rage which would be reduced due to the fact that no one could hear each other talk anyways. Air travel sucks as it is, why not remove all vestiges of comfort and save us all a few bucks?

    6. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by llefler · · Score: 1

      No drinks, mini pretzels, and the minimum number of flight attendants required by law.

      Snacks aren't there for the convenience of the passengers. They are there to give the cattle something to do. Keep them busy so they don't have time to cause trouble.

      Flight attendants would carry tasers....

      You might be on to something there, a taser is nothing more than a cattle prod on steroids.

      --
      It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit. -- Harry Truman
    7. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, first class is anything but a surefire way to get rid of obnoxious people. They're just obnoxious in other ways. Instead of constantly comlaining about something, some (by far not everyone, but some) treat the stewardesses like some sort of personal slave.

      And that bothers me for some reason. That women (or men in some cases) are my link to more booze, and the last thing I want is them being grumpy!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    8. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by lymond01 · · Score: 1

      Must be opposite day here at /. The guy who calls "common people" the problematic ones on flights is labeled insightful and me, who says anyone can be a problem, gets labeled troll.

      If I didn't have a long nose, scraggly hair, regenerative ability, and a fear of fire, I might be upset.

    9. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      hey, you almost describe what it is like to fly in china on the interior (read: unregulated) airlines.

      i was scared!

    10. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by mgblst · · Score: 1

      No drinks, mini pretzels, and the minimum number of flight attendants required by law

      If they got rid of all those fat attendants these day they would make a huge saving. I suggest Anorexic dwarfs.

    11. Re:Despite this "Terminal Chaos" by marciot · · Score: 1

      I also recommend Airframe by Michael Crighton. Yes, it's Crighton's usual stuff -- heavy on technical details, some of which may be flubbed. But he does grasp the complexities of air travel in the U.S. today.

      If you enjoyed Airframe by Michael Crichton, you'll probably also enjoy TRACON by Paul McElroy.
  3. Fixed that for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Today's airline traveler considers it a near miracle if his flight arrives on time with his baggage that he was forced to pay extra for. There, fixed that for you.
    1. Re:Fixed that for you by Fast+Thick+Pants · · Score: 2, Funny

      Anecdote of bygone times: Some years back I actually packed in my luggage a spare tire which I had borrowed and was returning. Very large, very heavy bag. The baggage agent demanded to know what it was, gave me some dirty looks, but let it pass (with no extra fee.) I just can't imagine what they'd think and/or charge if someone tried that today.

    2. Re:Fixed that for you by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      touche!

    3. Re:Fixed that for you by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      you borrowed a spare tire?????? say waht?

    4. Re:Fixed that for you by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Geez, that's the funniest thing I've read all day!

      Tho given the state of today's waistlines, you could probably get away with *wearing* that tire, and no one would notice ;)

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    5. Re:Fixed that for you by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Informative

      Probably arrest you for bringing such an unusual thing on board or at the very least cut the tire open to make sure you're not hiding some bomb in there.

      You simply do something that's not considered "normal" today and that's enough to warrant a strip search.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. The explanation is obvious by geekoid · · Score: 5, Informative

    The reason there are so many problems is that the cost is too cheap.
    The price per ticket isn't enough to cover the cost of doing business, so more and more items get cut.
    Boarding because a cattle car types of efficiency, service goes down, everybody becomes rushed, the aircraft become packed, and so on.

    Don't get me wrong, flying 1000 miles for 3 hundred bucks round trip is great, but lets not kid ourselves. If we want service to go back to the 1960s level of service, the costs should at least be as much as it was in 1960s plus inflation and fuel cost increases.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:The explanation is obvious by Bearpaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If we want service to go back to the 1960s level of service, the costs should at least be as much as it was in 1960s plus inflation and fuel cost increases.

      At which point, it'll be cost-effective to install and operate a nation-wide high-speed passenger and light-cargo rail service network.
    2. Re:The explanation is obvious by spun · · Score: 3, Funny

      The price per ticket isn't enough to cover the cost of doing business, Yeah, but the make up for it in volume.
      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:The explanation is obvious by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1, Insightful
      but the title isn't. I thought it was about, you know, terminals. Computer terminals. Those greenish or yellowish screens with letters and numbers.

      I'll just go back to sleep now. (Posted after flying from the Galapagos to Alaska - I don't want to even think about airline terminals right now. And I'm looking at you Miami International "Airport". I'm swimming next time.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:The explanation is obvious by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 1

      Exactly. You get what you pay for, and airlines run on ridiculously narrow margins. A modern airliner costs about the same as a skycraper. Then factor in that you have a fleet of hundreds of these, each taking on tens of thousands of gallons of fuel, and that the whole thing is still easily susceptible to the weather, and you realize taht economic disaster is far more likely than success.

      --
      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    5. Re:The explanation is obvious by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I have my doubts. Rail systems are expensive, and they don't bring the same value to the table as aircraft do. Namely, time.

      They also don't bring to the table what the automobile does. namely, freedom.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:The explanation is obvious by ArsonSmith · · Score: 5, Funny

      "A modern airliner costs about the same as a skycraper."

      Wow, that's a deal. Most airliners have 2 or more skycrappers in them.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    7. Re:The explanation is obvious by WMD_88 · · Score: 1

      Miami International "Airport"

      I prefer to call it "Miami International Construction Zone and Narcotics Terminal." :) I live closer to FLL, but Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood International Construction Zone isn't much better.
    8. Re:The explanation is obvious by EMeta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Much of the time advantage of rail over plane is lost with the "Please be at the airport at least 2 hours before your flight" requirements.

    9. Re:The explanation is obvious by c_jonescc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Those that do pay for service get it. I fly enough that I get moved to first class a few times a year, and most of these frustrations go out the window when your ticket is worth 5x the other passengers. The airlines mark your bag with a 'priority' badge to make sure it doesn't go missing; you're the first on the plane (and have coffee in hand before the rest of the seats know if they're being bumped) and the first off; you have one attendant for roughly a dozen people in some cases, while the back of the plane has only two; you're served a full meal that's actually edible (sometimes), instead of paying for pretzels.

      And, with pushes for special security lines for the frequent flyers, or just plane rich, the primary frustration of flying will diminish too - all for a cost.

      There is that level of service, and you can buy it. To say that there should be no lesser services at a lesser cost, and that the poor should just ride the bus is simply elitist. (Note - parent didn't say this, but it's already popping up in the comments)

      --
      Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
    10. Re:The explanation is obvious by Josh+Booth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, but rail systems rarely made money on moving people. Every long distance hauler is really a way to move cargo, with the government mandating they throw on x number of passenger cars or something. And if you have a good enough system of long-haul, light rail, commuter bus and taxi service, not to mention new things like rentable bikes and publicly shared cars, all synchronized with our brand new internet, then you could get from here to anywhere in a minimal number of hops and cost, while also assuring fairly managed resources. So, like routing packets on the internet.

    11. Re:The explanation is obvious by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      At which point, it'll be cost-effective to install and operate a nation-wide high-speed passenger and light-cargo rail service network.

      It will NEVER be cost-effective to install and operate a nationwide high-speed rail service network in the United States.

    12. Re:The explanation is obvious by Tuzanor · · Score: 4, Informative

      First, nobody said get rid of the automobile.

      Also, high speed rail (300km/h) is already widely deployed in Europe and Japan. And time is where they do shine. I can go from Central Paris to Central London (465) in less than 3 hours. I can board the train 15 minutes before it leaves. To fly, it's an hour to the airport, plus I'd have to arrive at the airport 2 hours early, wait in 3 different queues (check-in, security, boarding) fly for an hour, arrive, wait for my luggage(at least half hour), and then an hour into the city.

      Obviously this is different going from NY to LA, but amongst denser areas of the US (north-east, california) this is feasible within 1000km distances.

    13. Re:The explanation is obvious by Bearpaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have my doubts. Rail systems are expensive, and they don't bring the same value to the table as aircraft do. Namely, time.

      That's true for cross-country flights, but the comparison is much less lop-sided for closer cities.

      They also don't bring to the table what the automobile does. namely, freedom.

      Apples and rutabagas. Although if rail got the same backing from public funds that autos do ... well. (Also, a lot of that "freedom" is as imaginary as car commercials.)
    14. Re:The explanation is obvious by jd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mostly true, but for how much longer? The Dreamliner is selling surprisingly well, given that it's so tiny, and the Airbus 400 generally isn't. This indicates that the trend towards increased volume has started to reverse. The pressure on airports like Heathrow to add runways is an indication that airliners are aiming to increase the number of flights rather than the number of overall passengers. This is Not Good, for many reasons (air pollution, noise pollution, increased collision risks, etc).

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    15. Re:The explanation is obvious by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

      light rail... re-modernizing cities... oh noooo!
      (all the republicans jump out the window)

      --
      stuff |
    16. Re:The explanation is obvious by Tuzanor · · Score: 1
      NEVER say never. They could do it up and down both coasts and it'd be a start.

      They said the same thing with the interstate once...

    17. Re:The explanation is obvious by Bearpaw · · Score: 2, Funny

      It will NEVER be cost-effective to install and operate a nationwide high-speed rail service network in the United States.

      Because, of course, trains would need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react.
    18. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes because there is no place for a middle ground.
      I'm french and our HSR network works fairly well. Japan has an extensive HSR network as well. And in Europe, Spain has a very ambitious plan to build HSR everywhere. Germany and Italy also have HSR.

      HSR brings two things: no security checks on departure, correct time on medium distance (300 miles to 500 miles). Better regularity than planes: a train on time is not news, a plane on time is. Comfort is better in a train (even french TGV which are the less confortable of HSR are better than planes). Luggages are not weight limited in trains (provided you are reasonable)
      and you don't play surplus on them. You can use electrical appliances in trains and even your cell phone. And the best things about trains (which is not inherent): train operators will sell you a one way ticket at a reasonable price. Another advantages (maybe not so much in US) is that trains leave you at the center of the city not 10km away.

      Bording trains is faster: 8 doors for 540 passengers compared to one door for 200 passengers.

      So yes, HSR tracks are expensive but roads are too, and airports are too. They're all funded by your taxes too. Now HSR is not good for 2500 miles but they should do the tricks for intrastate travel

    19. Re:The explanation is obvious by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1
      What I liked best about MIA was the sign "Most Improved Airport in 2008" (according to some group that no one has ever heard about).

      Talking about damning by faint praise. I pity the fools that went through there last year.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    20. Re:The explanation is obvious by SomeGuyTyping · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure that makes any sense

      --
      My posts are definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate.
    21. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you'll have to do a little walking from the terminal to your destination, you're suddenly no longer free? I never realized freedom was limited to roads. I never imagined my back yard was actually part of a hidden despotic zone.

    22. Re:The explanation is obvious by c_jonescc · · Score: 4, Funny

      It is ALWAYS more efficient to simply state something with capital letters, instead of producing an actual piece of evidence, AND IT'S JUST AS EFFECTIVE!

      --
      Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
    23. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like an alternative within my lifetime, thank you.

    24. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's funny because the WTC fell down when some airplanes hit them. LOLOLOL

    25. Re:The explanation is obvious by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      They upgraded the eurostar line and you can make the trip from london->paris in 2hr 15min

      I agree with the rest though. There's a lot of 'sister cities', even in the south that could stand to have transportation from one to another.

      Tuscaloosa and Birmingham, Alabama or maybe Nashville/Knoxville/Chattanooga, Tennessee could use a system like that.

      --

      -Bucky
    26. Re:The explanation is obvious by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      Really?

      --

      -Bucky
    27. Re:The explanation is obvious by j-pimp · · Score: 1

      At which point, it'll be cost-effective to install and operate a nation-wide high-speed passenger and light-cargo rail service network.

      How about expanding our heavy rail system putting lightrail systems in local areas that don't need full train service? We can run 2 car light rail systems in the suburbs. The cities should all get subways like NYC.

      --
      --- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
    28. Re:The explanation is obvious by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To fly, it's an hour to the airport, plus I'd have to arrive at the airport 2 hours early, wait in 3 different queues (check-in, security, boarding) fly for an hour, arrive, wait for my luggage(at least half hour), and then an hour into the city.

      The two hours rule is only there to spread the queues.

      And you are really showing the worst case scenario. Even at major airports you can easily arrive less than an hour prior to your flight and do a kiosk check-in within five minutes. Security varies (it's worse in the UK) but modern airports combine security with boarding which again takes twenty minutes maximum if you choose not to arrive at the gate an hour in advance.

      Local airports are even better, I can catch a seven o'clock flight here in Rotterdam leaving my house at six, half five if I choose public transportation instead of a taxi.

      While that might be a best case scenario, it should also be included in a fair analysis of air travel. Yes, I might pay fifty or even a hundred euro more, but it does save me the time and cost of travel to/from and time of pre/post-boarding holdups of bigger airports. While prices are still comparable with high-speed trains even for those non-budget flights.

      And sometimes there simply isn't another option: by train I can't get to London before noon or leave past five, making a single day business trip nearly impossible and a short vacation quite inefficient when it comes to cost versus time spent at location - hotels cost a lot as well and despite common belief, days off in Europe aren't unlimited. (The argument becomes even bigger when using the American amount of holidays.)

    29. Re:The explanation is obvious by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      Like... a MONORAIL!

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    30. Re:The explanation is obvious by mshannon78660 · · Score: 1

      I don't buy that argument - the two airlines that I know of that are profitable and expanding are JetBlue and Southwest - and Southwest at least has already publicly said that they won't be following American et al. in charging for bags - so it is clearly possible to make money at today's prices.

    31. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know a skyscraper or two with airliners in them...

      crap I'm going to hell.

    32. Re:The explanation is obvious by svnt · · Score: 1

      I think he meant to say skycreper.

      Mmm crepes.

    33. Re:The explanation is obvious by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I am not in the airline industry, but I think one reason for the two hours rule is so that they have time to pick/break the locks on your "checked-in" luggage and look inside if the scanners show something suspicious.

      If your bag has something strange and they don't have enough time, your luggage isn't getting on the plane.

      The next time you or someone has their luggage "miss the flight", if it ever arrives, check it and see if it's been opened and "looked through".

      They don't do this "two hour" stuff for trains yet.

      --
    34. Re:The explanation is obvious by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That _really_ depends on where you are.

      The train from Bellingham, WA to Portland, OR (Google Maps informs me it's 262 miles) takes about seven hours and you need to show up at least twenty minutes early. Call it 7 and a half hours.

      On the other hand, I recently flew from Sea-Tac to Chicago O'Hare (~2,000 miles) in about four hours, plus two hours early for checkin = about 6 hours.

    35. Re:The explanation is obvious by Otter+Popinski · · Score: 3, Funny

      So, like routing packets on the internet. Finally a thread where a car analogy actually makes sense, and you go and make an Internet analogy.

      For shame.
    36. Re:The explanation is obvious by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough, in the area of the US that is roughly as densely populated as Europe (the Northeast), we actually do have rail service (the Acella Express), however, the price of a ticket on that train frequently exceeds the price of a ticket on a low cost air carrier (the air carriers don't have to subsidize unprofitable routes all over the country the way Amtrak is forced to by Congress).

      Otherwise, rail service in the US is a joke.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    37. Re:The explanation is obvious by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      Move to Durham, NC :)

      I live here. lines never more than 20 mins.

      If I have a noon flight, I can have my girlfriend leave the house at 10:45 with time to spare.

    38. Re:The explanation is obvious by jandrese · · Score: 1

      We already have it where it's cost effective (the Northeast corridor).

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    39. Re:The explanation is obvious by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...it depends on the length of the trip.

      There are certainly a lot of regional routes that have turned
      into quasi-bus service that could easily be replaced by a decent
      rail system. The feds throw all of this money at roads and they
      are the least efficient means of surface transport.

      If rail roads were treated like asphalt roads, a number of thorny
      problems would be attacked simultaneously.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    40. Re:The explanation is obvious by hurfy · · Score: 1

      Heck with the high speed even

      I would be happy to take the train 400 miles home for holidays...it is a gorgeous trip.

      Except the departure time is 2 AM :( Just the ride to the station is a bitch. Noone wants to take you anywhere at 2 AM, there is no bus and even cabs are iffy at that point :/ Then you take this beautiful train ride in pitch dark. Then repeat when i return home. 30 people got off the train here and not one cab outside station...everyone has to call seperately for one. Watching college kid next to me build a Monty Pythonesque mashup for class was interesting tho.

    41. Re:The explanation is obvious by Altus · · Score: 1


      The high speed rail system in japan is fantastic. Its fast, its efficient, you don't have to get there 3 hours early and wait around. Trains leave and arrive precisely on time. For domestic travel it is far more common to use the train then it is to take planes.

      Its not that the trains are actually faster its that there is little time wasted on either end with check-in and baggage.

      Admittedly japan is smaller than the US and it would be hard to justify a rail line through the "fly over states" but and east coast system with branches out to various central cities and a west coast rail down the coast would go a long way.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    42. Re:The explanation is obvious by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      American is a dinosaur that acts like they are doing you a favor
      by allowing them to do business with them. They seem fixated on
      the old ways of doing things and are unwilling or unable to adapt
      to the new conditions.

      They are another coach service pretending to be something better.

      Also, no one has the balls to price the product at what it costs.
      They would rather bleed money than ensure that their cash flow is
      where it should be. That's just basic business stupidity (nevermind
      about how you run an airline).

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    43. Re:The explanation is obvious by Altus · · Score: 1


      I got to the Las Vegas air port over 2 hours before departure and missed my flight. I was waiting in the check in lines for nearly 2 hours never mind security which was even longer.

      Of course this is a good example of not keeping up the infrastructure, that is a very busy airport (since vegas is primarily a tourist destination) and is not particularly modern.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

    44. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, where Southwest made a brilliant (for now) business decision was in hedging their bets on fuel by buying up lots of futures contracts. They're paying a very, very much lower average rate for fuel than anyone else.

    45. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's great that you can get out of Rotterdam in 30 minutes, except this book is about the US. We're all happy for you, but your point is moot with regard to US airports.

    46. Re:The explanation is obvious by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      When you factor in an hour waiting to check an and an hour waiting for security, then add the probability of many hours lost time as flights are delayed, rail is MUCH faster than air for all but the longest flights--especially if we get higher speed trains like in EU and JP.

      Now factor in our current peak oil scenario, and compare jet fuel to rail's ability to run on electricity.

      If we actually had high-speed electric rail, it would be superior to air in literally every way for shorter trips such as Boston to NYC.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    47. Re:The explanation is obvious by c_jonescc · · Score: 1

      reall... erm, excuse me. I mean to say REALLY.

      --
      Getting diabetes AND salmonella would be a bad weekend.
    48. Re:The explanation is obvious by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You know, there have been many attempts to make this happen.

      I notice you padded that airline trip pretty heavily.
      For example you don't include travel time to the train station and parking and you take the best case for a train, and compare it to the worse case of an airline.

      The last time I took a flight(about 2 years ago), I walked up to the machine, entered some numbers, and had my luggage checked in less then 10 minute, went through security in 15 minutes, and I arrived 45 minutes before my flight.

      BTW, the fact that it works in Japan and 'Europe' doesn't mean it can work elseware.
      Politics, terrain, and distances are the big problems.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    49. Re:The explanation is obvious by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even assuming your "we can guarantee a complete security check within two hours" service, it's still a suggestion only. Just look at the "latest check-in" time at the signs when you actually do check-in and notice that the latest option they give you is usually not more than an hour and even less at smaller airports.

      And they do this for some trains actually, they advice at least thirty minutes for Eurostar trains to the UK which is similar to the boarding time for flights. The advantage here is that check-in and security are one single step, having just one service every two hours from one gate. Again the hub size is the deciding factor here, not the form of transportation.

    50. Re:The explanation is obvious by cryfreedomlove · · Score: 1

      So, then, you are in favor of using coercive force to drive up the costs of air travel?

    51. Re:The explanation is obvious by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Freedom meaning I can change my destination, or stop where I want on the fly.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    52. Re:The explanation is obvious by Reziac · · Score: 1

      You used to be able to take your car along, in a freight car, so when you got to wherever it was unloaded and you drove off. Presumably you could still do that if you cared to rent half of a flatbed car, or one berth in an auto-carrier car (whatever the railroads call them).

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    53. Re:The explanation is obvious by mshannon78660 · · Score: 1

      While that was a brilliant move, if you look at their 1Q07 earnings (available on their site at Quarterly Earnings, they reported record revenues - lower fuel costs can improve profit, but not revenues. There are other things they are doing right.

    54. Re:The explanation is obvious by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      they build a monorail in vegas, it is a disaster!!!

      people don't want to pay for a ride, and the monorail is always empty!!

      the homeless like it though.. guiet and comfy inside.

    55. Re:The explanation is obvious by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      PSST - that is the industry's biggest secret!! but swouthwest want YOU to thuink they know how to make money. they are just a hedge fund with jets.

    56. Re:The explanation is obvious by DriedClexler · · Score: 1

      The airlines mark your bag with a 'priority' badge to make sure it doesn't go missing Wow, that's the most concise summary I've seen of how bad it's gotten. You need a "priority badge" just to have a reasonable chance of not losing your luggage.

      How many UPS or even USPS packages get misrouted? Compared to how much tonnage of packages?

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
    57. Re:The explanation is obvious by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 1

      I was reacting to the "get there two hours before departure" rule, which is widespread in Europe as well, but definitely not necessary in most cases even when advertised.

      Maybe the US has focused more on the Airbus/hub strategy than the Boeing point-to-point strategy, partially due to the way its cities developed, but in that case the solution would be to have more regional airports (and why not, regional urbanisation to battle commutes).

      The Greater LA area for example is big enough to have dozens of national and international airports, spreading customers instead of cramming them into LAX would make sense. But that's urban planning and has very little to do with air travel itself.

      Showing another way how it can be done differently is not a moot point, it enforces the book and extends the discussion.

    58. Re:The explanation is obvious by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      In the NW too, eh? Once for experience I took the train to Portland (from Seattle) for a business trip. We left at 12:20. Arrived in Portland at 6:55 PM after several delays - stopped in the middle of nowhere (like between Tumwater and Chehalis).

      For those not familiar with the Seattle/Portland area, that is a 3 hour drive, tops. So the train - at a cost of $42 per seat - takes twice as long as my 1999 Ford Ranger (which burns 8 gallons of gas to go the same distance).

      Amtrak costs more, is slower, and not as comfortable. But it sure does make a pretty story!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    59. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. RDU is an outstanding airport. There's a nonstop flight to Heathrow every night, too, and it's just fantastic--show up at the airport for an international flight about an hour in advance and you're set.

      My wife and I take that flight regularly, and it's never been delayed for us. The wait time on the ground is incredibly short, too; a couple times, we've taken off when the safety video had barely begun.

      But RDU is doing what most airports can't--it seems larger than it really needs to be, so there's room to spread out airlines, gates, passengers, security, and other operations. Everything seems to work smoothly, probably as a result of this spaciousness. (This is just my impression as a frequent passenger.) Contrast this kind of operation to something like LaGuardia, Newark, etc.; it's almost pleasant.

    60. Re:The explanation is obvious by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 4, Informative
      As a frequent flyer (like nearly every week, inside the US or internationally), here's a few tips:

      1. Check yourself in electronically - print out your boarding pass at home. That bypasses 30 minutes, easy.
      2. Check your baggage AT THE CURB. Pretty much every major airport in the US will let you check your baggage at the curb. Yes, it costs an extra $3 per bag to do so, but that saves another 15 minutes.
      3. No metal in your pockets, no liquids in your bag. Yes, you can survive without that bottle of water for 10 minutes.
      4. Always choose the security lane with the fewest number of families and old folks. Even if it's longer, you'll get through faster.

      I rarely show up more than 30 minutes before my boarding time, and have yet to NOT be at the gate prior to the start of boarding.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    61. Re:The explanation is obvious by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      It works for short distances like London to Paris... That's 343 km, so you average around 160 kph. Not bad.

      Now try that from, say, Seattle to the next big city, San Francisco - 1200 km (and two mountain ranges), so we're talking at least 10 hours. About the same from Chicago to NYC.

      Even if you accept the 2 hour prior to departure rule, you're talking a 2 hour flight, 2 hours waiting, and 1 hour to and 1 hour from the airport. At most 6 hours versus 10.

      Trains work in very dense, small geographic regions like Europe. Outside of smaller areas in the NE of the US, though, trains really aren't viable.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    62. Re:The explanation is obvious by Gordonjcp · · Score: 1

      Just because you'll have to do a little walking from the terminal to your destination, you're suddenly no longer free?

      Or you could just hire a car. Hell, if it comes to that, get a copy of the local small ads paper and *buy* a car, if you need it for more than a few days. I've done that before.

    63. Re:The explanation is obvious by stubob · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Absolutely. Anecdotal evidence from last weekend. I took a trip from Denver to Rapid City, South Dakota to look at the monuments and such. Google Maps says the trip is 400 miles, about 6 hours 30 minutes of drive time.

      Ticket price: $250 a piece for my wife and me. Flight was scheduled to depart at 10 a.m. Left the house at 7 to drive the the airport (45 minutes + parking and walking to the terminal, call it an hour). Check in was pretty easy. I'm on the TSA watch list (still, even after filling out the form two months ago), so we couldn't check in online. So figure another 45 minutes for ticketing, security and getting to the gate. Wait around until 10, plane takes off on time. Flight time is one hour. Wait around to get off the plane and get bags (figure another 30 minutes, it' a small plane and small airport). Another hour from Rapid City to the condo. So in total, 5 hours and change.

      If we'd driven my car, at 25 mpg, gas at $4 per gallon, 800 miles/25mpg*4 = $128 for gas total. So the flight saved one hour and cost 4x as much. And that's on Frontier. Wait until July, when we fly to Michigan on United ($500 each per ticket).

      --
      Planning to be moderated ± 1: Bad Pun.
    64. Re:The explanation is obvious by Drathos · · Score: 1

      And you are really showing the worst case scenario. Even at major airports you can easily arrive less than an hour prior to your flight and do a kiosk check-in within five minutes. Security varies (it's worse in the UK) but modern airports combine security with boarding which again takes twenty minutes maximum if you choose not to arrive at the gate an hour in advance.

      So what you're saying is that there's no modern airports in the US? No airport in the US combines security and boarding (aside from requiring a boarding pass to go through security).

      And your timing would (almost) never work in the US, either. I either use online check-in and curb-side baggage check or use one of the kiosks and drop my bag at the drop off point. Either of which normally takes approx. 5 mins. But sometimes neither of those options works and you're forced to stand in an hour+ long line waiting for the single person working the counter.

      Then you go to the security checkpoint which can take between 5 min and 2 hours. In general, wait time there changes depending on what time you're traveling, but not always. I've been on a series of business trips that all left from the same airport at the same time on the same day (4 trips in the span of 5 weeks) and the checkpoint time took between 15 minutes and almost 2 hours. Admittedly, half of the delay at the security checkpoint seems to be from infrequent fliers who don't know how best to prepare for going through security. There's also a logjam of people just after security who are trying to put their shoes back on.

      Then you get to your gate. Nowadays, a single gate often has 2 or 3 flights worth of people crammed around it for morning or evening flights and it's not uncommon for your gate assignment to change due to overcrowding or flight delays. After boarding is first announced, it will usually take you 15-30 minutes to get on the plane unless you are flying first class.

      Unfortunately, for a lot of travelers (business travelers especially), air is the only real option. Train takes forever for long trips and, unless you're using a 'commuter' line that runs a lot of trains at a regular schedule (like the DC NYC Metroliner and Acela Express), quite unreliable for scheduling. Buses are pretty much useless for anything except local public transit. It's faster and often more comfortable to drive yourself.

      --
      End of line..
    65. Re:The explanation is obvious by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Factor in the traffic jams to and from airports and you're there again. There is usually far less traffic around train stations and they are usually closer to your target destination, too. When they were built, they were usually on the outskirts of a town, but with towns growing they are nowadays almost downtown.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    66. Re:The explanation is obvious by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Number 4 falls flat with most airports I know, which have a single line for all passengers. And that's usually where you drop at the very least 30 minutes.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    67. Re:The explanation is obvious by dwye · · Score: 1

      > I can board the train 15 minutes before it leaves.

      Until someone bombs a train, a which point they get the same 2 hour wait.

      > Obviously this is different going from NY to LA,
      > but amongst denser areas of the US (north-east,
      > california) this is feasible within 1000km distances.

      The BosWash corridor is the only place in the US that trains have been run profitably, since the 1960's. California would be profitable only if the interstates were left to crack, or if there was suddenly some reason to go the entire LA-SF run, rather than exit after a few tens of miles.

    68. Re:The explanation is obvious by hiryuu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      1. Check yourself in electronically - print out your boarding pass at home. That bypasses 30 minutes, easy.

      Another business frequent flyer here (about the same frequency as you cited), and I can say I did this and loved it until my name landed on the no-fly list in October of last year. I've been trying to get off the list since then, with no luck, and have to check in with a live person for every single flight! I can't even use the automated kiosks.

      Arbitrary governmental action has made my work significantly more cumbersome and troublesome for no real benefit, and that has been the single largest impact I've seen.

      --
      Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
    69. Re:The explanation is obvious by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      yup!!

      newark, midway, jfk, san fran, lax, they ain't go no room to grow.

      orlando, RDU, las vegas, they got the room, hence, less check in delays.

    70. Re:The explanation is obvious by bucky0 · · Score: 1

      You don't have to go from metropolis to metropolis. I was in germany recently and took a high speed train from bamberg (a town of about 70,000) to frankfurt (a giant town). Even small hamlets have stations with semi-regular stops.

      Yeah, it would be retarded to take a train directly from chicago to NYC (unless you just really liked the view), it's just like the interstate system. I-40 goes from east coast to west coast. Nobody takes it all the way, but all the little towns that are served derive a benefit. A nice advantage of trains over airplanes is that they can stop fairly frequently. In Germany, the trains stop at smaller towns for only 2-3 minutes, so they can stop pretty often (Of course, there's a tradeoff between how long it takes total and how many stops you end up taking)

      The population distribution of both bavaria and central/eastern tennessee are similar: Tiny hamlets surrounded by an asston of empty space. It works great for them, and I think, as infrastructure, is probably something that's helped them out immensely.

      --

      -Bucky
    71. Re:The explanation is obvious by icebrain · · Score: 1

      Are lost bags really that common? I don't know anyone that's had one lost before... sent on an earlier/later flight, sure, but those had good reasons, and they got the bag soon enough. But lost?

      --
      The meek may inherit the earth, but the strong shall take the stars.
    72. Re:The explanation is obvious by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Actually i was more referring to the typo of word 'skyscraper' as 'skycraper' and extrapolating that to be 'skycrapper' as a new slang term for a 'crapper in the sky' or the bathroom on an airplane.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    73. Re:The explanation is obvious by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You used to be able to take your car along, in a freight car, so when you got to wherever it was unloaded and you drove off. Presumably you could still do that if you cared to rent half of a flatbed car, or one berth in an auto-carrier car (whatever the railroads call them).
      You still can do that.
    74. Re:The explanation is obvious by ozbird · · Score: 1

      Finally a thread where a car analogy actually makes sense, and you go and make an Internet analogy.
      Yes, but in London, the rail system really is a bunch of Tubes.
    75. Re:The explanation is obvious by Chosen+Reject · · Score: 1

      I'm on the TSA watch list (still, even after filling out the form two months ago)
      I don't know how long the TSA claims to go through those forms, but it doesn't surprise me that a government bureaucracy takes a stupidly long time to do anything. My wife lost her Permanent Resident card and had to get a replacement. We got a notice in the mail from INS saying it would take something like 400+ days for them to process it. Long story short, she was a US citizen just a few months later. I honestly don't know how it can take less time to become a citizen than to reprint a stupid card.
      --
      Stop Global Warming!
      Just say no to irreversible processes!
    76. Re:The explanation is obvious by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      Cool...Next time I travel to some place in the lower 48 states, I'll take a train instead of Alaska Airlines!

      Oh, wait...

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    77. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, with the opening of High Speed 1 on the London side of the chunnel, the time was cut to 2:15:~~

    78. Re:The explanation is obvious by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 1

      That, and they sell chocolate-covered cotton on the side?

      (I assume that that's the reference you were aiming for, anyway.)

    79. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but Vegas's monorail failed not because it's a monorail, but because it's hidden, and doesn't connect anywhere useful. Most of the folks going up and down the strip can simply walk, and the monorail is mostly in the back of the hotels, so you have to go well out of your way to find it.

      Mix in the fact you can't use it to get to work, you can't get to the airport, you can't get to some of the hotels, etc.

      Really looks like the monorail was sabotaged ... the various factions couldn't kill it outright, so they just wounded it enough to make it useless.

    80. Re:The explanation is obvious by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      Train service needs to be restructured. Your plane wouldn't go very quick either if it had to stop at every podunk town along the way. What we need are express service trains between large cities - you can bet your ass that if the train gunned it straight from Seattle to Portland (with maybe a stop or two along the way for pickup) it will beat the plane there (accounting for checkin, security time, etc.).

    81. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder at times how many non-American people truly understand how big the United States is.

      California is 1,240 km by 400 km.

      Seattle, WA to Las Angeles, CA is about 1,500 km.

    82. Re:The explanation is obvious by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      As a somewhat-regular train rider in Canada...

      For example you don't include travel time to the train station

      Almost all train stations I've seen are smack downtown. This is generally where I need to be, either for business reasons, or because most train stations in most cities also tend to be the central transit hub for local public transit (subways, buses, etc.)... As compared to airports, which are generally in the middle of nowhere, and only in a few cities are they well-connected to a nearby public transit hub.

      The last time I took a flight(about 2 years ago), I walked up to the machine, entered some numbers, and had my luggage checked in less then 10 minute

      Well, if the GP is guilty of padding, you're guilty of the direct opposite. I fly fairly often also, and a 10-minute check-in is quite optimistic, and only works out if you're flying at non-peak hours. Usually for me it's at least 20 minutes to line up, all in all 30 minutes is a reasonable expectation for check-in.

      went through security in 15 minutes

      Which is also a bit optimistic, and assumes the line is moving at a good pace. To be reasonably safe 30 minutes should be allotted.

      This is all kind of moot when you consider that airlines *mandate* that type of arrival time. Sure, they will *almost always* let you on the flight if you check in 40 minutes before takeoff, but they are, by the terms and conditions on your ticket, allowed to turn you away also. So... arriving at least 60 minutes early is often non-optional.

      BTW, all my experiences have been in Canada (and a smattering of American cities), where population density is *even worse* than most major American cities... So if it works *here*, it can work for you guys.

    83. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a bit of an economic fallacy. If you lose money on every sale of an item, you can't magically make money by selling a higher volume. If anything, you will lose money faster.

    84. Re:The explanation is obvious by eh2o · · Score: 1

      Actually Boeing is presently enjoying a nice advantage over Airbus due to the weak dollar (which is actually hurting the EU economy in general, contrary to what many people assume).

    85. Re:The explanation is obvious by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Nice... tho too bad it's limited to just one line. From TFA, "it is considered Amtrak's best-paying train in terms of income versus operating expenses." Hmmm...

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    86. Re:The explanation is obvious by spun · · Score: 2, Funny

      And for his next act, Captain Obvious will explain the dangers of stabbing yourself in the eye with a fork!

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    87. Re:The explanation is obvious by spun · · Score: 1

      Wow, WHOOSH on me, that's the next line of the quote...

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    88. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I STRONGLY disagree.

    89. Re:The explanation is obvious by level99 · · Score: 1

      So, I know I am a little priviliged here: I travel enough to enjoy gold/elite status on 2 different airlines. Both are part of international airline alliances, so I get good service on a number of airlines around the world.

      When I fly domestic I show up at the airport a maximum of 30 minutes before departure. That's how long it takes me to check-in, go thru security and board at the gate. Never in my life have I missed a flight. Even when I fly international, I show up 40 minutes prior to departure.

      The two hours thing sound interesting, but I haven't seen it be important or necessary. Seriously not trying to come off as an arrogant prick, but even before I made gold thingie, I never had to adhere to a two hour rule.

    90. Re:The explanation is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And along with that you get the freedom to get stuck in traffic, to deal with some road-rage idiot, and to kill or be killed at much higher rate than any other transportation mode

      Like the guy was saying, that freedom illusion exists mostly in car commercials - have you ever noticed that there is no traffic in car commercials, even in a big city?

    91. Re:The explanation is obvious by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Ahh.. I see your problem. You seem to think that paris to london is far. How quaint.

      We have high-speed rail in the US to go the equivalent distance (Boston to Philly). It takes longer than three hours, though, because it shares track with the normal speed trains (what kind of dim bulb thought THAT was a good idea?)

      Still, I definitely look forward to the day when trains are appropriate for the trip from New York to LA. Probably not in my lifetime, though: we'll probably need to do it as an evacuated tunnel chord-of-the-earth train to be fast enough.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    92. Re:The explanation is obvious by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      How, exactly did those "no security checks" work out for the spanish rail system in 2004?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    93. Re:The explanation is obvious by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      We only sort-of have it. Instead of making something people would actually want to ride, they decided to go half-assed (like half the other stuff in the northeast.) and just buy high speed trains. They share most of their track with traditional-speed trains, which understandably significantly limits their minimum travel times.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    94. Re:The explanation is obvious by rabiddeity · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, like routing packets on the internet.

      With the notable exception that you can drop packets on the Internet, and the sender will simply retransmit. In fact, with TCP/IP you are expected to do so. I'd be willing to bet that a large percentage of IP packets are dropped. But with human beings your "packets" are unique tokens which are not retransmittable and cannot be dropped. If the rail lines past Bumfuck, IA are blocked by freight cars or other nonsense, I either have to backtrack creating more traffic, or wait there until it clears up. I can't discard the people or cargo, and they will take up buffer space. So it's not quite the same, the railroads have their own set of issues.

    95. Re:The explanation is obvious by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 1

      I actually haven't had many problems with traffic jams in airports. I don't exactly fly often, though, so YM will definitely V.

      Anyways, even if we factored in actually parking and getting inside the airport (took like half-an-hour last time), flying 2000 miles in fewer than 10 hours is definitely faster than going 262 miles in 7 and a half.

    96. Re:The explanation is obvious by Ian+Alexander · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the train wasn't even very comfortable, either. I had to connect in Seattle and the train down to Seattle was just luxurious. The seats were spacious, the interior was plush, the aisles were wide, and it wasn't too crowded.

      Seattle to Portland, being a much larger train carrying more people a longer distance, was... I'll just say less nice.

    97. Re:The explanation is obvious by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      because light rail is just as expensive to operate as buses for the same passenger capacity, and it's more expensive to put in, and it's less flexible on routing.

      Subways offer a real advantage, IF the cities have the population density.

      Get rid of the operators, and the numbers look a little better though.

      One thing that every city of medium density should consider: grade-separated bicycle lanes. The speeds and masses of bikes vs. cars mean that they really shouldn't be sharing roads anywhere but a rural setting where traffic is quite low. Similarly, bikes shouldn't share the sidewalk with pedestrians for the same reason.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    98. Re:The explanation is obvious by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Uh... but what is the efficiency comparison between the Dreamliner and the 400? Or the 380, which was designed roughly the same time and represents the departure of design philosophies.

      It should also be pointed out that the only airline to consistently post a profit in the US is Southwest, which flies nearly exclusively 737s, and does not ascribe to the "hub and spokes" model of passenger routing.

      Bigger is not necessarily equal to better, especially if you're not fully utilizing the planes, or you have to have travelers go way out of their way to get where they're going. 10% savings on fuel costs per passenger mile doesn't really make sense if the price is increasing the distance passengers must travel to their destinations by 30%.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    99. Re:The explanation is obvious by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Uh, those were local commuter trains. You want security checks when you get on the subway?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    100. Re:The explanation is obvious by _LMark · · Score: 1

      As another frequent flyer (like, typically 2+ round trips per week), here's my suggestion:

      DO NOT CHECK ANY DAMNED BAGS!

      if you learn how (and what) to pack a bag, you can bring everything you need with you in a carry-on and never "lose" your bag due to airline incompetence. If you're worried about things you can't bring in carry on luggage, ie. pocket knife, liquids, MAIL it to yourself express delivery. For the cost of checking 1 bag w/ American Airlines ($25) you can overnight just about whatever you'd like and be insured against its loss.

      --
      'the Internet is right.'
    101. Re:The explanation is obvious by fish+waffle · · Score: 1

      1. Check yourself in electronically - print out your boarding pass at home. That bypasses 30 minutes, easy.

      Works great, sometimes. First time I tried that my printer just wouldn't print it. I've solved that since, but for some reason I keep forgetting to bring my printer with me so i can print out the return boarding pass too.

      2. Check your baggage AT THE CURB. Pretty much every major airport in the US will let you check your baggage at the curb. Yes, it costs an extra $3 per bag to do so, but that saves another 15 minutes.

      Better: if you want your luggage to arrive with you, don't check anything. Travel light.

      3. No metal in your pockets, no liquids in your bag. Yes, you can survive without that bottle of water for 10 minutes.

      And don't wear shoes, be careful to not bring anything with wires in your luggage. Don't bring a laptop.

      4. Always choose the security lane with the fewest number of families and old folks. Even if it's longer, you'll get through faster.

      Similar observations work in grocery store lines, as neatly summarized by Apu in one Simpsons episode. But in an airport there are forces actively working against you---if you try and get through quickly, then you become of interest, and must therefore be slowed.

    102. Re:The explanation is obvious by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Of course, it depends highly on the distance covered. The further away you go, the more interesting a plane becomes. It could be interesting to figure out the break-even point for trains and planes.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    103. Re:The explanation is obvious by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      Works great, sometimes. First time I tried that my printer just wouldn't print it. I've solved that since, but for some reason I keep forgetting to bring my printer with me so i can print out the return boarding pass too.

      My solution: I print to PDF, then FAX it to my hotel. Have yet to find a place where that did not work...

      Better: if you want your luggage to arrive with you, don't check anything. Travel light.

      If possible, sure. But sometimes I have to check a bag - supplies, gifts, suits (hard to get 3 of them into an overhead bag), etc. I have yet to have a bag lost. Maybe I'm lucky, but ~400 flights over the last 5 years is a pretty good record so far.

      And don't wear shoes, be careful to not bring anything with wires in your luggage. Don't bring a laptop.

      No, wear shoes that slip on and off (which are better anyway - kick them off on the plane, socks are much more comfortable), leave your wires in the laptop bag (or if they're not usable on the plane or the airport, check them in your bag), and just pull your laptop out of your laptop bag.

      Never had a problem with the laptop, wires, or equipment so far - including my trip in and out of North Korea.

      Similar observations work in grocery store lines, as neatly summarized by Apu in one Simpsons episode.

      The Simpsons contains much wisdom! On that I fully agree...:)

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    104. Re:The explanation is obvious by Ertman · · Score: 1

      Are you the ass who manages to get 2 suitcases and a laptop bag (and a coat, and a briefcase) on every United flight I have taken in the last 2 years? Since I usually take a aisle seat, and United boards the aisle seats last, this means I often get to carry my laptop bag and coat on my lap for the entire flight since every overhead bin is crammed full long before I even got in line to board.

      I think that banning "suitcase" carry on bags would be one of the best things any airline could do. The plane would board and deplane faster, and there would be more room on the plane for humans.

    105. Re:The explanation is obvious by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      there is a company that has made an entire business around the shipping of bags.

      since they make sure the employees don't pilfer the bags (something DHS and airlines DONT do), it is a great option.

    106. Re:The explanation is obvious by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      that's not nice!!

      u use kilometres just to make the distance seem father!!

  5. union problem? by belmolis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While I don't dispute that unions are sometimes a problem, I wonder how much the union is to blame in this case. One hears regular reports of understaffing and impossible work conditions for air traffic controllers, and these seem quite plausible given what an intricate and high-stress job it is together with the antiquated computer systems they have to use, which don't provide very good support. Back in 1980 the main issue in the air traffic controllers' strike was working conditions, not wages and benefits. When Reagan broke the union and fired the air traffic controllers, wasn't that a huge blow to reform?

    1. Re:union problem? by mbone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Union is not and was not the problem in this case. In 1981 the Union was right and Reagan was very lucky that there wasn't a major air disaster because of his actions. As was the case for basically every action of that Administration, ideology triumphed over both reality and common sense.

    2. Re:union problem? by Bearpaw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Back in 1980 the main issue in the air traffic controllers' strike was working conditions, not wages and benefits. When Reagan broke the union and fired the air traffic controllers, wasn't that a huge blow to reform?

      Seems like it might've been, yup.

      They also question how NATCA gets away with constantly stating that the US air traffic control system is the safest in the world, when it is actually behind Europe when it comes to safety metrics (Europe has .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049 in North America). They get away with it because it's a tradition that practically no-one questions. All you have to do is say "The US is the bestest in the world when it comes to [x]" and few people bother checking. (Except "America-haters", of course.)
    3. Re:union problem? by I+Want+to+be+Anonymo · · Score: 1

      They also question how NATCA gets away with constantly stating that the US air traffic control system is the safest in the world, when it is actually behind Europe when it comes to safety metrics (Europe has .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049 in North America).

      They get away with it because it's a tradition that practically no-one questions. All you have to do is say "The US is the bestest in the world when it comes to [x]" and few people bother checking. (Except "America-haters", of course.)

      Perhaps because the ratio of hull losses related to ATC is better in the US.
      I don't know that, just sayin'...

      --
      Anonymous Cowards get no respect.
    4. Re:union problem? by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      >>> I wonder how much the union is to blame in this ca

      I would put a lot of blame on them, at least 33%.

    5. Re:union problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Union is not and was not the problem in this case. In 1981 the Union was right and Reagan was very lucky that there wasn't a major air disaster because of his actions. As was the case for basically every action of that Administration, ideology triumphed over both reality and common sense.


      EVERY action? Really?


      Such exaggeration more than suggests that your own ideology is clouding your view of the reality of the period.

    6. Re:union problem? by jandrese · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wasn't the decade after that the worst ever for Airline accidents in the US? The problem isn't that the Air Traffic Controllers are resistant to change because they're afraid of losing their job, it's that the FAA is pathologically risk averse. That's the primary reason it's taking so long for ADS-B to get deployed, because any change could mean a change which could mean danger. It's impossible in the FAA to change the brand of coffee you make without a 2 year investigation.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    7. Re:union problem? by Notquitecajun · · Score: 1

      Except, of course, when it came to cutting taxes (adding a TON of people to the middle class), or speeding up the death of the Soviet Union, or reforming the tax system, or breaking the fed and dropping interest rates, or, well, I could go on, but if you're going to be all ideological...

    8. Re:union problem? by Jansingal · · Score: 1, Troll

      the union is a problem!!!!!!

      they are stoppping progress so they can keep their jobs.

      30 years ago, a 747 had 5 crewmembers. now it has 2

      control towers, even though they are handling more flights, have many more controllers.
      they refuse to embrace new technology.

      NATCA is the problem!!!! NATCA is the problem!!!! NATCA is the problem!!!! NATCA is the problem!!!! NATCA is the problem!!!! NATCA is the problem!!!! NATCA is the problem!!!!

    9. Re:union problem? by vecctor · · Score: 1

      They also question how NATCA gets away with constantly stating that the US air traffic control system is the safest in the world, when it is actually behind Europe when it comes to safety metrics (Europe has .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049 in North America). The only issue I would have with this statistic is volume differences and what that they count as a "hull". If we are talking any plane at all (small one-man aircraft to airliners) then the volume difference and difference in variety of aircraft is going to be huge.

      Operating a private airplane in europe is ludicrously expensive compared to the US, and the infrastructure (countless small airports) aren't there either. Consequently, there isn't much volume in private aircraft compared to the US. That is going to have an effect on the numbers.

      --
      Why, yes I have been touched by His noodly appendage. And I plan to sue.
    10. Re:union problem? by NullProg · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Union is not and was not the problem in this case. In 1981 the Union was right and Reagan was very lucky that there wasn't a major air disaster because of his actions. As was the case for basically every action of that Administration, ideology triumphed over both reality and common sense.

      Are we rewriting history again?

      1) Federal Employees, which Air Traffic Controllers are, cannot legally strike.
      2) There wasn't a disaster because Reagan shifted Military Controllers into the FAA positions. Supervisors and non-striking controllers took up the rest of the slack.
      3) I would say a $30 billion a year tax generating revenue stream triumphed over the ATC Union desire of a 32-Hour work week for more money.

      Just like the Soviets, the ATC Union thought Reagan was bluffing. He wasn't.

      Enjoy,

      --
      It's just the normal noises in here.
    11. Re:union problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the reason ADS-B is being delayed is because the Aerial NRA (AOPA) is fighting it. ADS-B allows tracking of who occupies what airspace when, enabling the government to properly bill airspace users for the services they consume. If the government would shut down the AOPA and force pilots to operate under the jurisdiction of LOCAL authorities (who would most likely ground them as the unnecessary danger that they are) we would have a lot less problems, and I would be able to enjoy my property on the weekends without the noise of aerial dirtbikes.

    12. Re:union problem? by hax4bux · · Score: 1

      I've never been prouder of AOPA than this moment.

      In fact, I think I'll double my donation to the foundation next time.

    13. Re:union problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Union is not and was not the problem in this case. In 1981 the Union was right and Reagan was very lucky that there wasn't a major air disaster because of his actions. As was the case for basically every action of that Administration, ideology triumphed over both reality and common sense.

      Are we rewriting history again?


      1) Federal Employees, which Air Traffic Controllers are, cannot legally strike.

      True, so they struck illegally. The pay was very low, and the other stuff they were fighting for sounds ridiculous and cushy, but has been proven to be required to keep accident rates low. (I.e. when someone has been staring at a radar scope for too long, they make mistakes).

      2) There wasn't a disaster because Reagan shifted Military Controllers into the FAA positions. Supervisors and non-striking controllers took up the rest of the slack.

      They didn't avoid a disaster. There were far more accidents after that. Now, these guys are all retiring.

      3) I would say a $30 billion a year tax generating revenue stream triumphed over the ATC Union desire of a 32-Hour work week for more money.

      Just like the Soviets, the ATC Union thought Reagan was bluffing. He wasn't.

      Enjoy,

      The raises? A bit excessive. The 32-hour work week? Pretty reasonable. This is a real high-stress type job which (especially in busy air traffic areas) requires precision and accuraccy. Quite simply, working long shifts increases significantly the number of mistakes controllers make. The number of breaks they get and short hours SOUND ridiculous, but any more than that increases accident rates. I think you'll find that (until recently) the replacements ALSO got the short work weeks and most of the pay raise amount.

                Well, look at the ATC situation now. The guys from the 1980s are getting to retirement age. The ATC system is trying to hire people -- a friend of mine and I considered going into it. Until we saw, within the last couple years basically, a Bush appointee is running the FAA. See http://faaunionbusting.wordpress.com/ and http://www.faafollies.com/, I'm sure it's biased but if 5% of it's true, it's obvious the ATC system is screwed. The new FAA head is now telling ATC people "this is a business, I'll run this like any other business".. increasing hours WAY past the safety point (not just due to labor shortages -- he plans to cut staff at each center by lengthening people's hours even when they get all the hires they can). Some are doing 24 hour shifts! He is now telling ATC controllers they can't wear bluejeans, normal shoes, etc (even though they are just on a radio)... so the remaining ATC guys are retiring early to not have to put up with that crap. Vacation? The FAA requires employees to mark off vacation perhaps MONTHS ahead of time, but no longer guarantees any vacation time until 3 weeks ahead of time -- good luck gettings tickets with that little notice! While complaining about people not wanting to work in ATC, they are cutting pay by 2/3rds too. Brilliant!

  6. There's something on the wing! by nmb3000 · · Score: 4, Funny

    If one looks at pictures of airline flights from the 1960s, you will see well-dressed passengers enjoying their flight.

    I beg to differ!.

    In any case, some of it is probably just a reaction to more modern events and mindsets. Nowadays, instead of "Oh, it's a distraught passenger who doesn't like flying" it's "OMGTERRORIST". Airlines overbooking flights and employing shoddy baggage handling techniques doesn't help anything either.

    --
    "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
    /)
    1. Re:There's something on the wing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, yes, "well-dressed passengers enjoying their flights". And where, pray, do those pictures come from? That's right. The airlines. Care to try to find one picture taken recently by an airline that doesn't show "well-dressed passengers enjoying their flights"? Thought so.

      As for the author's assertion that a New-York to Chicago flight on a DC6 took "a little over 2 hours"... 635 nautical miles is 730 miles. The cruising speed of a DC6 is 315mph (274 knots, i.e. nautical miles per hour). At cruise speed all the way, that would mean 2h 20 minutes *flight time*. A quick look at aa.com informs us such flight nowadays are scheduled to take 1h30 *gate to gate*. And maybe the author also has rather fond memories of being buffeted by winds for 3 hours? Because that's the way it was before jetliners.

      That's not to say that air travel is without problems, but - as usual - taking off those rose tainted glasses when looking at the past helps to make a more rational analysis.

  7. Terminal chaos by saunabad · · Score: 2, Funny

    Airlines? For a moment I thought the title was about utf-8 and scandinavian alphabet configuration mayhem in terminal emulators.

  8. A little overstated. by mbone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I fly every week, I have never seen a case of air rage, and I have never lost a bag. I think that the case is over stated.

    It is true that there are too many small flights, which waste both gas and airport slots. But the overall system works decently well IMHO.

    1. Re:A little overstated. by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Like most things in modern society, it is due to far more prevalent information. Abuse is lower, but incidents are reported more. Crime is down, but every criminal is on the 5pm news. People are living longer although everything you do will kill you.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    2. Re:A little overstated. by jsailor · · Score: 1

      I fly every week, sometimes multiple trips per week and I mostly agree with you.

      However ...
      1. Flight delays are horrendous
      2. Charging for checked baggage makes the already abused carry-on baggage situation worse
      3. Lack of coordination and insufficient staff at the gates make boarding disorganized
      4. Airlines are always slow to update flight times. http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp gives you a good idea of what may happen to you, but then you need to find out whether your plane is coming from (or through) a troubled airport.
      5. Congestion at LGA, ORD, EWR, JFK and I'm sure many others is constant and should be dealt with.
      6. Policies that encourage planes to "push back" only to have you wait for an hour+ on the tarmac are detrimental.

    3. Re:A little overstated. by flibuste · · Score: 1

      I fly every week, I have never seen a case of air rage, and I have never lost a bag. I think that the case is over stated.

      You've been flying every week for the last...month, between New York and New Jersey maybe?

      I fly across the big pond every six months and 50% of the time, baggages do not arrive on time. 25% of the time, they arrive 2 days later. In a few occasions they never arrived.

      Usually, air rage happens when someone who has a 12h jet lag and who's been parked for 10h on a microscopic seat suddenly finds out he's going to spend 2 days in the same clothes he had while flying and he's being told to deal with it.

      Yes, the system is obviously broken, and you haven't experienced half of it yet.

    4. Re:A little overstated. by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      fly united out of chicago....

      u will see air rage within a week, GUARANTEED!!!!!

    5. Re:A little overstated. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      I think someone doesn't like you... Not a no-fly list but a fuck-with-this-guy list...

      I fly from the US to Asia 6-8 times a year, been doing so the last 5 years. Make it to Europe about 2-3 times a year. Have never had a bag lost (including domestic flights in the US and China), and the longest delay at takeoff I can remember was 2 years ago from YVR (Vancouver International) to PVG (Pudong, Shanghai), when we sat for about 45 minutes while they removed some bags from a passenger who never showed up.

      Seriously, it's not the airlines. It's you. Let me know when you fly because I do NOT want that flight...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    6. Re:A little overstated. by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      I fly every week, sometimes multiple trips per week and I mostly agree with you.

      However ...
      1. Flight delays are horrendous

      Chalk this one up to the FAA. Airlines are allocated X number of slots for takeoffs and landings daily, yet they frequently schedule 20%-60% more flights than are humanly possible given those slots. In cities where weather is a problem (that's you, O'Hare), this just results in complete stupidity. And the problem is compounded because a late takeoff means a late landing, which snowballs into affecting the landing slots of other flights.

      So, the airlines are to blame, but only because the FAA isn't enforcing a reasonable policy on slots.

      2. Charging for checked baggage makes the already abused carry-on baggage situation worse Your luggage is weight and space, just like you are. You're paying more to fly you from point A to point B because of fuel costs. What makes your luggage so special that it should be immune to the same factor? Tradition?

      As for delayed baggage, that's frequently the fault of the airport more than the airline, as well as being something that's out of their control. I live in Atlanta, and Hartfield-Jackson is one of the longs waits for baggage after deplaning (~30-45 mins, usually). The problem is not enough baggage personnel vs. the amount of baggage. The solution? Hire more baggage handlers. The reason they're not doing it? Because that would cost more, which would increase fees to passengers, which are already griping about costs. You get what you pay for.

      3. Lack of coordination and insufficient staff at the gates make boarding disorganized Which could be solved by hiring more gate personnel. Why aren't they doing it? See the above on baggage personnel. If ya wants it, ya gots to pay for it, bub.

      4. Airlines are always slow to update flight times. http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp gives you a good idea of what may happen to you, but then you need to find out whether your plane is coming from (or through) a troubled airport. Define "slow." I usually find out my flights status within 10-15 minutes of it changing.

      5. Congestion at LGA, ORD, EWR, JFK and I'm sure many others is constant and should be dealt with. See item #1.

      6. Policies that encourage planes to "push back" only to have you wait for an hour+ on the tarmac are detrimental.

      See item #1.
      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    7. Re:A little overstated. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Learn how to spell the word "you", dumbshit.

  9. What do you expect? by al0ha · · Score: 1

    Ultra low prices = ultra lean operations = less employees = ultra lack of service = pissed off customers. How stupid is the airline race to the bottom? Flying is not a right, just like driving. Raise the prices and those who can't afford it well, take a bus, train or ship.

    --
    Did you ever wake up in the morning, with a Zombie Woof behind your eyes? -- FZ
  10. Security theater by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 3, Informative

    If I'd be forced to guess I would say that the security theater methods actually increase violence on the plane, due to people getting annoyed and doing stupid things. Therefor this security measure might actually cost lives, instead of saving them.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
    1. Re:Security theater by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They might. And brick houses MIGHT be more prone to burning down than wooden ones. Anything MIGHT be true.

      So before you resort to scaremongering comments about "ACTUALLY costing lives," care to cite a case where you feel a life was lost due to violence on a plane from an enraged passenger?

    2. Re:Security theater by WK2 · · Score: 1

      The three letter acronyms are lowering security in many ways. What you mention, which I call "intentionally aggravating customers" is one. Another is that they are neglecting to research actual security measures.

      A related problem is that they are driving people away from flying, who will then resort to driving, which is much more dangerous. This costs lives every day.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
  11. I can't believe they overlooked it! by HitekHobo · · Score: 1

    Don't rabid anti-smoking laws even get acknowledged?

    When you talk about irritable passengers, you have to at least give a nod to the two pack a day man who has to go without a fix from the time he arrives at the airport until he departs. Maybe he'll get lucky and he can go sit in the bullet-proof glassed room with it's own ventilation system, but even that has to annoy him quite a bit.

    Isn't there a lot of tobacco use in the Mideast? Are we really sure that terrorism isn't just a form of protesting the loss of a man's right to give himself lung cancer anywhere he chooses?

    1. Re:I can't believe they overlooked it! by geekoid · · Score: 0

      "...give himself and others lung cancer anywhere he chooses?"

      There, fixed it for you.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:I can't believe they overlooked it! by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A smoker who can't handle going without his fix for 6 hours can stay the fuck off my airplane, thanks. If your addictions are so massively out of control that you go into rage mode at 30,000 feet, you should be prosecuted, not coddled. Two pack a day man can get a grip or not fly.

    3. Re:I can't believe they overlooked it! by HitekHobo · · Score: 1

      A smoker who can't handle going without his fix for 6 hours can stay the fuck off my airplane, thanks. If your addictions are so massively out of control that you go into rage mode at 30,000 feet, you should be prosecuted, not coddled. Two pack a day man can get a grip or not fly.

      And here I was beginning to think that the connotation of 'rabid' might be seen as hyperbolizing the shift of values in the US over the past 20 odd years.

    4. Re:I can't believe they overlooked it! by lgw · · Score: 1

      "...give himself and others lung cancer anywhere he chooses?" [citation needed] There, fixed it for you. There's still no proof that second-hand smoke causes cancer. It's just quite annoying.
      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:I can't believe they overlooked it! by Rycross · · Score: 1

      A plane is a small, sealed, and confined place. That means that very few smokers can fill the entire cabin with smelly, irritating smoke. I don't think its fair to let a small handful of passengers make air flight far more unpleasant than it already is for a couple of hundred non-smoking passengers. Thats not even mentioning how second hand smoke can affect people with allergies and very young children. Buy some nicotine patches and deal with it, ffs.

    6. Re:I can't believe they overlooked it! by sir_eccles · · Score: 1

      I hate to point this out but smoking was generally banned due to safety issues not lung cancer issues.

  12. Well not related by dedazo · · Score: 1
    But I was at the airport this morning dropping off a friend who was getting on a US Airways flight to the States. It turns out that you now have to pay $25 for the second check-in bag, where before both were free of charge as long as they were under 50lb.

    The more the goddamn airlines nickel and dime us to death, the less we'll fly, and the less money they'll make. Hello vicious circle. And screw the damn airlines. I haven't enjoyed getting on a plane since the early 80s when I proudly flew Braniff...

    --
    Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    1. Re:Well not related by maxume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd much rather they charge people with 2 bags more than they charge me and my 1 bag than I would they charge everybody the same.

      The pricing structure of 2007 is not compatible with the fuel prices of 2008; charging Mr. 2 bags is not nickel and diming, it is staying in business.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:Well not related by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should be charged by the pound like most other forms of cargo.

    3. Re:Well not related by danzona · · Score: 1

      I'd much rather they charge people with 2 bags more than they charge me and my 1 bag than I would they charge everybody the same.

      Then shouldn't they just weigh everybody with their bags and then price the ticket per pound?

      If a person comes to the airport with a single 40 pound bag that person will pay $25 less than the flier that comes with two 20 pound bags. That strikes most people as unjust.

    4. Re:Well not related by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I'd rather they charge for excess carry-ons personally, because it's those people who abuse the carry-on policy that slow down boarding the most, especially if there are multiple ones on a flight and they fill up all of the overhead bins (heaven forbid they use the spot under the seat). My guess is that they're trying to reduce the number of bags they handle so they can lay off some of the ground crews though.

      It seems clear to me though, the only answer in the end is to raise ticket prices (some of which we've already seen). Maybe it will become economical to take the train again (it seems to me that increases in fuel costs should be much less of a concern on trains, which are far more fuel efficient per pound per mile).

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    5. Re:Well not related by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      The more the goddamn airlines nickel and dime us to death, the less we'll fly, and the less money they'll make.

      Then I assume you're a fan of higher flat-rate pricing? Because that's the alternative. Fuel is more expensive for airlines too, and fuel is a huge proportion of their costs. No real way around that other than higher prices.

      Obviously higher prices leads to less flying, which is simple supply/demand economics.

    6. Re:Well not related by maxume · · Score: 1

      I would not be too upset about that (though I am of above average size and would pay more).

      It would need to be a base price + per pound fee structure though, as part of what you are paying for is the space that you are sitting in, and the space for the toilet, and the crew, and so forth, none of which vary based on your weight (except for people that fill two seats).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Well not related by dedazo · · Score: 1

      I'd rather they tell me upfront and add it to the cost of the ticket than nail me when I'm at the counter.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    8. Re:Well not related by sricetx · · Score: 1

      Then I assume you're a fan of higher flat-rate pricing?
      Yes, I would rather that they raise flat-rate pricing. This applies to not only airlines, but the garbage company (waste management, etc.) UPS, FedEx, and pretty much anyone else these days. Nothing pisses me off more to be quoted one price and to then get a bill for a much higher price due to these mandatory surcharges. When I get these charges, I feel totally lied to and ripped off. Your cost of doing business is not my concern. I'll care about how much it costs a supplier to run their business when they implement transparent cost-plus pricing. Typically, most things are priced based on the cost the market will bear. Whining that they need demand based pricing + some additional amount to maintain their profit margin is bullshit. High energy prices are here to stay -- adjust your pricing structure accordingly so I can fairly assess the cost-benefit of whatever service you are providing.

    9. Re:Well not related by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      No, you need to charge based on a function of weight and volume, since both are a premium.

      Also, I agree that they should charge the uberfatties an extra seat, but they should...actually give them the extra seat. There is very little I hate more than to be trying to get some rest when Jabba the Company Rep encroaches on my personal space because he's too fat to put his arms down.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  13. Given that... by jd · · Score: 1

    ..."hull loss" generally means either "we are picking up fragments of the aircraft with tweezers" or "ooops, was that the end of the runway?", any achievable value is higher than you'd like. In fact, as a function of overall system quality, the measured value will be asymtotic to some non-zero value that is the practical "best" you can theoretically achieve. You will never reach this "best" value, it is only theoretical, but you can get as close to it as you like. Since this is the "best", however, the metric should be relative to it and not to zero. It's senseless to measure relative to a value substantially lower than the achievable limit. It's like talking about negative degrees kelvin, it has no meaning.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Given that... by GeckoX · · Score: 1

      Ehh? Zero hull loss is not achievable so actual values shouldn't be compared to that?
      Zero crashes certainly does have meaning...precisely this: "Zero Crashes"
      It's not the 'new math', it's not an abstract concept, it's simply Zero Crashes.

      Unfortunate that hitting that metric is not likely, but it is most certainly possible...and I for one DO want that to be the number compared to and aimed for.

      --
      No Comment.
    2. Re:Given that... by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I noticed the "hull loss" stats someone posted, and thought, Isn't that 40-some vs 30-some lost hulls (whatever that means) per BILLION flights?? a difference of less than 10 parts per billion -- that's not even statistically significant, regardless of which continent's number you pick!

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    3. Re:Given that... by WK2 · · Score: 1

      You must be a real hit at marketing parties. However, as someone who appreciates math not being raped, I prefer the "hull losses / departure" metric, as opposed to a completely new, complicated metric that serves no purpose other than to be able to use a lower number.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    4. Re:Given that... by jd · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You can't reach zero crashes with software (Turing's "Halting Problem") and that's a controlled, mathematically perfect environment that is not subject to birdstrikes, metal fatigue, component failure, short-circuits, tyre bursts, fuel tank ruptures, air pockets, windsheer, fuel contamination, St. Elmo's Fire, volcanic dust, collisions, engine fires, drunk/asleep pilots, or any of the other things that have taken aircraft out of the skies over the years.

      (Computers may be subject to some of those, but the software itself is not. You can failover software, it's much harder to failover to another aircraft if yours drops out the sky.)

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  14. Unions? by bjourne · · Score: 1, Interesting

    How are unions to blame for whatever is wrong with flying in the US?

    1. Re:Unions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having unions protect employees in a customer service oriented business results in employees getting away with mistreating customers/baggage/etc and much more easily than otherwise.

    2. Re:Unions? by u8i9o0 · · Score: 1

      How are unions to blame for whatever is wrong with flying in the US?
      "select money from taxpayers UNION select money from industry;"
      The output is then utilized by politicians.
      It's really the politicians that made the mess, but they skillfully blame it on a "union". :)
      --
      This is not my sig
    3. Re:Unions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simply put, they aren't.

      This book summary comes across as Monday morning quarterbacking to me. I need to go read the actual novel though so I can really take it apart.

      Yes, I am a FAA en route air traffic controller.

      No, the Union is not even close to being one of the major problems with Air Traffic. Although no union in my experience is totally without flaws, NATCA is in a horrible position. NATCA has agreed to not strike, because it was basically pure luck that there weren't major air disasters after Reagan fired the majority of controllers in the 1980s. That alone should show you the dedication to public safety that the union has. NATCA is the ONLY US union who has voluntarily agreed to never strike. Air Traffic is simply too necessary, 24/7 flights demand 24/7 controllers.

      However, if a Union has no real bargaining chip(strike ability) then they have no chance to negotiate fair working conditions for their members. The FAA management knows and exploits this. Already, controllers in many centers, approach controls, and towers are working 6 day work weeks. Pay for new hires(of which there need to be MANY MORE, as all the veteran controllers are facing mandatory retirement) has been cut by 30%. All salaries have been capped for certified controllers. These are the major issues, but of course a lot of minor harassment of controllers by management goes on as well, with no fear of retribution.

      I know many people who work in the software industry will think, 'hey, 6 days a week isn't so bad!' Well, this is not 6 days in a cubicle, working at your own pace. This is a job where every time you speak, (and when you are busy you are speaking nonstop for 2 hours at a time) you have hundreds of lives in the balance. It is extremely important to stay fresh and alert.

      One of the major problems with any sort of outside review of air traffic is people simply have no idea how busy it truly is, along the East and West coasts of the US especially. On average, the US has roughly 90,000 flights, a day. Compare that with all of Europe, which has around 25,000 a day. Those numbers of course increase around events and travel seasons.

      I could go on and on, but it would be pointless without reading the book first.

    4. Re:Unions? by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1

      Wow! Somone who hasn't heard the anti-union rant.

      Let's see if I remember how it goes....

      I. Capitalism is based on the free market.
      II. Unions take away the workers right to participate in the free market. A unionized worker is under the control of the union and unable to negotiate their own contracts.
      III. Employers whose workers have unionized are barred from participating in the free market because they cannot hire non-union workers. These employers are at a disadvantage in the marketplace compared to non-union companies.
      IV. Therefore, because Unions deny both the worker and the employer the right to participate in the free market, and becasue unions place employers at a disadvantage in the marketplace, unions are bad.

      Of course, that kind of ignores the whole premise that all employers are evil, greedy SOBs and if left to their own devices will enslave children to stoke open hearth furnaces bare-naked. But since Reagan said it it must be true!

      --
      Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
    5. Re:Unions? by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      You've apparently never tried to fire an incompetent, lazy, arrogant union member who's got seniority. Remember, seniority has nothing to do with how well you do your job. It has everything to do with how long you've been able to avoid being fired. In the meantime, you're prevented from hiring someone who might be competent, hardworking, and pleasant because you only have so many slots for employees. And you can't easily promote a good employee with no seniority over a bad employee with seniority. The system is stacked to protect the bad apples while giving no reward to the good ones.

      This is not to say all unions are bad or that all union employees are bad. Most are hardworking people who go the extra mile for rude, obnoxious, ignorant passengers who are trying to heap the world's sorrows on whatever airline employee they can find. But there are enough bad apples in the mix to at least make unions a part of the problem.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
    6. Re:Unions? by WinDoze · · Score: 0, Troll

      None of that is why unions are bad. Unions are bad because they're legalized extortion, period.

    7. Re:Unions? by Alpha830RulZ · · Score: 1

      See, for example, teacher's unions in any state in the US.

      I'm not anti-union, per se, but the Washington teachers' union is doing it's best to change my thinking.

      --
      I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
    8. Re:Unions? by bjourne · · Score: 1

      I'm a union member, but I have been fired. Probably not for laziness, but because the employer disliked me. This being in Sweden, where unions are supposed to have much more clout than in the US, for example. In the company I work for now, lazy arrogant and senior union members have also been fired easily. They just marked him for being late for work three times in a three month period. The union could do nothing.

      I've even heard to female fashion outfit assistants that were fired for not dressing up (read: using short enough skirts and wearing enough makeup). So I have a really hard time believing that US airline unions would be so strong that they can protect "bad apples" to any degree that matters.

    9. Re:Unions? by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      jetblue and southwest, no union pilots.

      great customer satifsaction and they are making money.

      hmmm, what do we have here?

    10. Re:Unions? by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      not even rudy guilianoi, who got rid of the mafia in ny, could do away with the inept teachers union.

      they are so big, so awful, so powerful, even rudy could not ax them.

      of course, the kids are lousy students, schools are dangerous, and the teachers are unionized... go unions!

    11. Re:Unions? by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 1

      Then Sweden does it differently than we do over here. Over here, unless the employee is egregious in their offenses (i.e. doesn't show up for work, tries to murder a co-worker, etc.), it's amazingly difficult to fire them.

      Now, what you may not be considering is the following example:

      1. The company sets a minimum productivity target for every union employee. Since the union is involved in negotiating these targets, they make very sure anybody who can fog up a mirror can hit the minimum without any notable effort.

      2. You have two employees. One does the absolute minimum he/she can get away with, shows up only a few seconds before the time clock starts, watches the clock all day, takes the maximum number of breaks for the maximum amount of time each, and vanishes immediately when the end of the work day chimes. The other worker shows up early, works through breaks, and stays late if needed.

      3. Now, can I fire the first guy and promote the second guy? Probably not. The rules say the first guy -- even though he's far less productive than the second guy -- is hitting his targets, therefore he isn't technically doing anything wrong. The second guy, however, is massively outperforming him. The business would be far better off with two of the second guy and none of the first guy, but good luck with that idea.

      4. Worse, I might not be able to pay the second guy more money since pay is tied to seniority. In fact, if the first guy is senior, he will make more money than the second guy given equivalent titles and duties despite the fact that he's much less productive. How in the name of hell does that make any sense? And think about how that affects employee morale and initiative when you know you get paid and promoted the same whether you're a slacker or a superstar. Not much incentive there, is it?

      This is how unions work in the U.S. Well, it's how influential unions work in the U.S. Think of the UAW, or ALPA, or the teacher's unions. They get their way pretty much all the time.

      --
      In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  15. safety comparison by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 3, Insightful

    when [the U.S.] is actually behind Europe when it comes to safety metrics (Europe has .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049 in North America).

    You've gone from an argument about the U.S. to cite statistics from North America - which, as you may have noticed, contains other nations. And you've not taken into account differences of flight distances or number of passengers per flight; I would think a much more useful number would be deaths per passenger-mile.

    If you're directly quoting an argument from the book, this puts s large hole in its credibility.

    --
    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
    You cannot wash away blood with blood
    1. Re:safety comparison by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most problems are during take-off and landing, when the largest stresses / changing conditions are applied to the vehicle.

      Per flight is a reasonable metric, as "while flying" issues are minimal.

    2. Re:safety comparison by lazyDog86 · · Score: 1

      when [the U.S.] is actually behind Europe when it comes to safety metrics (Europe has .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049 in North America).

      You've gone from an argument about the U.S. to cite statistics from North America - which, as you may have noticed, contains other nations.

      Bah! None of consequence.

      USA! USA! USA!

      --
      my insights may be modded Funny, but at least some of my jokes are modded Insightful
  16. It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with us. by ScentCone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    barely a day goes by without an incident of air rage

    That's because 40 years ago, someone who started pitching a violent and/or profane fit in close quarters where other people had paid for a service (like watching a movie or traveling for a few hours) could reasonably expect a sound thumping from someone willing to shut them up. And no jury in the world would give the person doing the thumping a hard time. Shame used to be a useful tool. There was a time when acting like an ass in public carried with it a certain stigma. Now it's celebrated in the news, and is a point of pride in many a music video. This is simply about bad manners made the norm, and a culture of victimhood-as-virtue that provides cover for every mis-step (including the deliberate variety), and which condems anyone looking to deny someone that cover as being somehow cruel. We've become a coddling culture, and this is the price we pay. It's no mystery. Every one of those screaming kids you see in the grocery store today will become the asshat in seat 30B on your flight to Chicago.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  17. Yet another reason to rebuild our rail system. by RustinHWright · · Score: 1
    I agree that air travel is pretty screwed up. But afaic, for trips of a thousand miles or less we would be far better off focusing our attention on our equally fubared rail system. You want cheap, efficient transit, a system that goes straight from downtown to downtown? Join NARP, call your congress critter to not just increase funding but have their policy geeks pay more attention to rail, and damnit, if you're serious about being a geek, get into this stuff yourself. At this point we would gain more from having more folks get into designing better rail systems than yet one more programmer responding to yet another project call on Freshmeat. Get together with some friends and build your own monorail system. It's cheaper than most Burning Man projects and a far more effective way to freak the mundanes for years to come.

    Amtrak has their head up their butt. But there are a hell of a lot of other transit systems out there. And they're all dealing with swiftly increasing demand. It's past time that we shone the spotlight on them.

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
    1. Re:Yet another reason to rebuild our rail system. by Jhan · · Score: 1

      Please do. You have the technology. You can rebuild it.

      Build a new maglev rail infrastructure all across the US. I repeat, you have the technology. Maglev trains would kick flight's ass for short and medium distances.

      --

      I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.

    2. Re:Yet another reason to rebuild our rail system. by jsiren · · Score: 1

      Build a new maglev rail infrastructure all across the US. I repeat, you have the technology. Maglev trains would kick flight's ass for short and medium distances.

      Or, for a fraction of the cost and hassle, build high-speed rail, which would also kick flight's ass for short and medium distances, with the additional advantage of being able to make use of the existing rails where practical (e.g. entering existing rail stations in large cities). Also, extend this passenger rail network to airports to reduce the number of short connecting flights.
      --
      Usage: km/h for speed (kilometers per hour); kph for very slow impulses (kilopond hours).
  18. *US* air travel by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 1

    The title is: "Terminal Chaos: Why U.S. Air Travel Is Broken and How to Fix It", emphasis mine.

    Yes, yes, I know.. I shouldn't be another one of us here who fly the European flag in discussions. But...

    I tend to expect my flights on time because they usually are, on short-haul they often arrive prior to schedule. I get excellent service even on the budget flights.. the drinks might cost me but I get them just fine. Except for Sky Alliance flights (KLM-AirFrance, Delta) I expect my luggage to arrive with me.

    Security is a bit of a nuisance, but I experience longer queues for most concerts, football matches, and so on.

    Then again, this has always been my experience outside of Europe as well, so maybe I'm just very lucky?

    1. Re:*US* air travel by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 1

      The title is: "Terminal Chaos: Why U.S. Air Travel Is Broken and How to Fix It", emphasis mine.

      Yes, yes, I know.. I shouldn't be another one of us here who fly the European flag in discussions. But...

      I tend to expect my flights on time because they usually are, on short-haul they often arrive prior to schedule. I get excellent service even on the budget flights.. the drinks might cost me but I get them just fine. Except for Sky Alliance flights (KLM-AirFrance, Delta) I expect my luggage to arrive with me.

      Security is a bit of a nuisance, but I experience longer queues for most concerts, football matches, and so on.

      Then again, this has always been my experience outside of Europe as well, so maybe I'm just very lucky?

      Budget European carriers like EasyJet are, in my experience, the worst possible nightmare when it comes to air travel without crashing. With no weather problems, I've experienced 2-4 hour delays on each of the half dozen EasyJet flights I've taken. Let's not even mention air rage.
      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    2. Re:*US* air travel by timster · · Score: 1

      Personally I've had pretty good luck simply avoiding airlines that have caused me problems in the past (like ATA or Delta for instance). It seems that many people assume that the "US Airline Industry" is some homogenous blob, but I have not found this to be the case. Of course, I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where I typically have a choice of which airline to fly.

      As for the US versus Europe angle, the worst airline I have ever flown on, by a huge margin, was British Airways.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
  19. Though fwiw, I will be buying this book. by RustinHWright · · Score: 1

    And reading it, passing it around, and, if it's as good as this review makes it sound, getting a copy for policy folks working for *my* congresscritters.

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
  20. Idiotic Nostalgia by netsavior · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If one looks at pictures of airline flights from the 1960s, you will see well-dressed passengers enjoying their flight.

    In 1950 an airline ticket was $325... or about $2800 adjusted for today's dollars... So there was a slightly different class of people

    additionally there were significantly LESS people per flight, per terminal, and per airline.

    Maybe a better comparison would be modern Airlines to 1960s busses.
  21. Never attribute to mischief... by Plugh · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... what can be safely explained by bumbling bureaucratic government incompetence.

    1. Re:Never attribute to mischief... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree
      Hugs from Albania
      ZÃrlaok
      http://ticderdi.blogspot.com/

    2. Re:Never attribute to mischief... by throatmonster · · Score: 1

      >"Government is not the solution to our problem; Government *is* the problem" -R. Reagan | http://freestateproject.org/

      ..."And I'm the leader of all that!"

      --
      All pass beyond reach of medicine. None pass beyond the reach of love.
  22. Dude, by Gat0r30y · · Score: 1

    In 2008, barely a day goes by without an incident of air rage, from irate passengers in the terminal, to those in the air causing flights to be diverted. Which is why SAFER is trying to get some ganga into the airport.
    --
    Prediction: The real iPhone killer is going to be sex robots from Japan. Think about it.
    1. Re:Dude, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A friend of a friend of mine.....brought a few bricks of hash to Vancouver on a plane from India no problem.

  23. Publisher is wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The full name of the publisher is American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA).

    1. Re:Publisher is wrong by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      anyone haver a clue what the diff between Aeronautics and Astronautics is???? free ticket on united whoever emails me first :)

  24. I'm curious by RustinHWright · · Score: 1
    Why are you bringing up cars in this context? Do planes bring more "freedom" than rail? I would say that, quite to the contrary, if by "freedom" you mean either more options for starting point and destination or freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, rail has it all over airplanes.

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
  25. Many issues at hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the biggest issues is the lack of ground resource capacity (runways, taxiways, gates, etc). Today's planes spend a huge amount of time waiting on the ground. This is one reason that a 2 hour flight 50 years ago is scheduled as a 3 hour flight today, despite the air speed difference.

    The only way to solve this particular problem is to either a) build new airports, or b) expand existing airports. Everyone seems to want more efficient airline service, but no one wants a new/expanded airline in their neighborhood.

    1. Re:Many issues at hand by bdcrazy · · Score: 1

      Read the above and about almost everything else as: Every one wants change to happen in their favor but want others to pay for it.

      --
      Tonights forecast: Dark. Continued dark throughout most of the evening, with some widely-scattered light towards morning
  26. Facts, please. by RustinHWright · · Score: 1

    Just one would be a nice start.

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
  27. Summary: "They let the plebs in..." by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    In the 1960s only the "Jet Set" flew.

    You want to avoid the air rage, the airport queues, etc. then do what the modern Jet Set do - get yourself a jet. Problem solved.

    --
    No sig today...
  28. You are an idiot, and here is why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/why-trains-just-dont-work-in-america/

    I just want to make it clear from the outset: I love trains. When I lived in New York and Connecticut, I rode trains regularly, just because I like them; they're far more comfortable that flying, and you don't have the hassles. I could walk to Penn Station, walk onto a train, and be in Washington or Boston or Hartford or Pittsburgh in a few hours, with pleasant scenery and the real chance of pleasant companionship. When I lived in Germany, I used the train to visit my employer's home office in Paris: I could pick up the Schlafwagen in Basel, sleep overnight, and be in Paris when I woke up. My grandfather was part owner of the shortest main-line railroad in the world; when my peers were playing with toy trains, I was playing on a real 2-8-0 Baldwin steam engine built in 1890. I really like trains.

    So when Megan McArdle says "America's freight rail system ... is world-class. Its passenger rail should be too," I'm naturally inclined to agree with her. It positively breaks my heart to have to say "no, actually it shouldn't. Passenger rail is almost certainly never going to work again, at least as a national transport system."

    As usual, what's thwarting my dreams of elegant dinners in the first-class dining car with Myrna Loy is arithmetic. Well, that and the fact that Myrna Loy died in 1993. Let's just compare passenger trains and airplanes on three trips I'm likely to take for business in the next few months: Denver to Los Angeles, Denver to New York City, and Denver to Washington, DC.

    TRIP Train Train Plane Plane
    Den-DC $554 74 hours $410 16 hours $1,778 (roomette)
    Den-LA $426 54 hours $179 12 hours S1,232 (roomette)
    Den-NYC $655 90 hours $428 18 hours $2,002 (roomette)
    For purposes of comparison, I'm taking cost and travel time from the Amtrak website and the Frontier Airlines website, traveling to arrive at the destination city on July 15, 2008, and leave for home on July 18; if there are any options, I'm taking the least expensive routing. Travel times are totaled for the round trip, and include three hours per flight added for getting to the airport and getting through security, and transit time from the airport to and from the city center on each trip. Notice, by the way, that this gives trains an inherent advantage, since the train station is usually in the city center.

    The table tells the tale, I think. The train is from one and a half to five times as expensive, and takes four and a half to five times as long, turning a four-day trip into seven or eight days.

    1. Re:You are an idiot, and here is why by micheas · · Score: 1

      one error that you are making is that you are comparing standard rail to airlines instead of high speed rail (HSR).

      HSR is about as fast as prop planes.

      Also, you chose an outlier of US cities (Denver) that is geographically very isolated from other US cities.

      HSR in the northeast corridor and california would be much faster than flying as amtrack is almost competative with flying as is.

      Not that Denver, Salt Lake City, and other western cities may never be practical for HSR unless they are a stop connecting the west coast to the mid west, but looking at Las Vegas, San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles, San Diego and Sacramento 9-11 security theater makes HSR look very attractive.

  29. Republicans backing rail by RustinHWright · · Score: 1

    Actually, with things as they are, more and more Republicans *are* backing rail. I damn near sprayed soda when I read that Trent Lott was one of the backers of the recent move to increase funding for Amtrak. When people with money start taking trains, as has now happened, Republicans suddenly start to care about rail service. Whodathunk?

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
    1. Re:Republicans backing rail by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1

      Actually, with things as they are, more and more Republicans *are* backing rail. I damn near sprayed soda when I read that Trent Lott was one of the backers of the recent move to increase funding for Amtrak. When people with money start taking trains, as has now happened, Republicans suddenly start to care about rail service. Whodathunk?
      I mostly think that Amtrak was instituted under Richard Nixon... (It's true, though, that compared to Dubya?, Nixon looks like Saint-Francis of Assisi)...
    2. Re:Republicans backing rail by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Funding AMTRAK has nothing to do with establishing the kind of rail infrastructure needed to actually be a transportation option for most people.

      Look at AMTRAK's balance sheet, and you'll find that by the majority of their revenue, they're not a passenger rail company. They have an alternate, much larger and steadier revenue source, which doesn't require actual customer satisfaction.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  30. Another change over time... by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    Is that whether we like it or not, our lifestyles have made air travel into a necessity for many. Sure, you can drive from New York to LA, but would that make sense if you're going there for a business trip?

    While it is true that flight used to be a privilege for the wealthy elite, there is a lot more expected out of everyone now. My wife has already flown three times for business this year, and myself once. And our combined income doesn't reach six figures before taxes. Add to that flights to visit family (within very narrow vacation schedules), and you see that our lives have come to be dependent on the ability to fly to our destination.

    Lastly I will add that some airlines provide a very reasonable level of service for the dollar. Others, of course, treat customers like cattle. Oddly enough, one of the ones that does not treat me like cattle comes from a state that raises a lot of cattle - and the converse also applies. I had a 1.5 hour layover in EWR two weeks ago, and the airline even gave the waiting passengers free soda and pretzels for our inconvenience. Of course that didn't cost them much, but I would say it helped quite a bit in calming the masses.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:Another change over time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're going from NY to LA for a business meeting, maybe you should consider whether you need to go at all, or think about other solutions, like telephones and video conferencing. I know they're not the solution to everything - if you develop perfumes, for example, they might be tough sell over the phone - but many business trips seem to be hard to justify.

      In the late 90s I worked for an oil company and, when oil went from $20/barrel to $40, they started looking at ways to save money. One of the major savings they identified was air travel. Turns out (doh!) that flying managers from France to Venezuela or Indonesia for routine meetings is not cost-efficient. So they spent mega-bucks on teleconferencing hardware that everybody hated - mainly because they didn't get to fly to exotic places anymore, I suspect.

      Just my €0.02.

  31. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Funny

    Every one of those screaming kids you see in the grocery store today will become the asshat in seat 30B on your flight to Chicago. Or the asshat working for the TSA.
    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  32. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by whodkne · · Score: 0

    AMEN! Mod this up! +Insightful

    --
    -Those who know do not say, Those who say do not know
  33. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ^^^^
    This guy just gets it.
    He groks.
    He knows where his towel is.

  34. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by dirkbaztard · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yeah! That's what we need. Let's thaw out The Duke, and let him and John Cassavetes, and Lee Marvin, and Charles Bronson, and Clint Eastwood, and Chuck Norris be on all the flights they can cover. That will make air travel safer and more enjoyable. At least on those flights.

  35. yep by Quadraginta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Here's an amusing site y'all can slashdot, comparing flying the 1960s to the present. A few points the guy makes:

    Flying was expensive. For example: A round trip ticket between Cleveland and Washington D.C. was about $75. This doesn't sound like a bad deal, until you adjust the fare for inflation: That's over $400 in today's dollars! By contrast, I recently paid less than $100 for a round trip between Cleveland and Washington on one of today's low-cost deregulated carriers.

    There was no point in shopping around for the best deal, because all airfares were controlled by regulation. If a roundtrip ticket between Cleveland and Washington was $75 on one airline, it was $75 on all the airlines.

    The vast majority of the passengers were businessmen. White male businessmen. Occasional families. Very few minorities, and virtually no women travelling independently.

    Food and drinks were almost always served, no matter how short the flight. Because there was no price competition, the airlines had to compete based on service. It was amazing to watch the stewardesses hustle to serve everyone on a quick trip, while constantly tugging at their skirts to retain some modesty.

    Sure, that sounds high-class, I guess, if you were a member of the flying aristocracy.

    1. Re:yep by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are other factors. White Men where most of the business men then, I suspect that would change to match the current demographic.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:yep by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2, Insightful

      White male businessmen. Occasional families. Very few minorities, and virtually no women travelling independently.

      In the 60's, what other businessmen were there, other than white and male? To try to make something that was classist also racist and sexist, just because the classes back then were aligned that way, insults everyone's intelligence.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    3. Re:yep by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Companies having to compete in service because prices are fixed... hmm.

      Ya know, regulations don't sound so bad after all...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:yep by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      Sure it would. But we'd still have to sacrifice the ability to see family members or take vacations far away. Reducing air travel to a "business-only" thing drops much of the utility of air travel.

      And let's not even talk about international flights which, in the USA, almost always mean traveling over the Atlantic or Pacific ocean, a distance that we simply can't afford to cross in any other way than by airplane if we don't want to spend months of our lives on transportation.

    5. Re:yep by p0tat03 · · Score: 1

      Ya know, regulations don't sound so bad after all...

      Yes, they do, because not all of us travel for leisure, nor are we all rich, aristocratic businessmen. Some of us are just trying to get home to see family without destroying our wallets.

      I for one would much rather see tiered services - first class still competes very much on services, and it shows - first class passengers have more amenities than ever before. If that's what you're after, great, buy a first class ticket. I will gladly starve/freeze/cramp my way across the continent for cheap.

    6. Re:yep by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Until you realise that you're paying $75 for food and wine you don't want when you could be paying $50 for just the flight from Easyjet or whatever.

  36. Airplane! by flahwho · · Score: 3, Funny

    "...The life of everyone on board depends upon just one thing: finding someone back there who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner!"

  37. Get Over Yourselves People! by fm6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK, air travel has become a horror. But "criminal neglect"? It's not "criminal" that passengers are miserable. "Criminal" would be planes falling out of the sky. But in fact you're safer flying across the country than you are driving to work. Or, if you believe some statistics, brushing your teeth.

    I used to love flying; now you couldn't get me on a plane without putting a gun to my head. But as long as people make their travel decisions based primarily on price, airlines have no incentive to make things better. I wouldn't argue with a few protective laws and regulations, but airlines' failure to unilaterally improve things in a hypercompetitive market is a matter of economics, not "criminal neglect".

    1. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by green1 · · Score: 1

      >> But as long as people make their travel decisions based primarily on
      >>price

      I have to disagree here, if it was entirely price air travel would IMPROVE... the problem right now is that they are trying to be everything to everyone.

      Between major cities there are flights every hour from each airline, as a result the planes are smaller models and often half empty.

      If the airlines wanted to save money they could easily cut this back, put larger planes on, and run them less often, this is far more efficient for them and would allow them larger profits at a lower price point.

      Unfortunately though, business travellers have become too used to being able to pick exactly whatever time they want...

    2. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by Acer500 · · Score: 1

      I used to love flying; now you couldn't get me on a plane without putting a gun to my head. But as long as people make their travel decisions based primarily on price, airlines have no incentive to make things better. I wouldn't argue with a few protective laws and regulations, but airlines' failure to unilaterally improve things in a hypercompetitive market is a matter of economics, not "criminal neglect". I haven't flown much in the last 10 years, not because I don't want to, but because I can't afford it (I'm from Uruguay), and as long as they take me safely from point A to point B, I don't mind if the plane is crowded and treated like what it is - a flying bus (overcrowded and especially overbooked IS annoying). If you have more money, by all means fly business, I'd do that if I could.

      OTOH, the security theater adds nothing but delays to the flights (I only experienced it once, but searching the soles of my shoes??? come on!). I'd definitely do away with THAT.
      --
      There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
    3. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      People have absolutely no incentive to make their travel decisions based on anything but price when a person is guaranteed to get the same, or nearly identical, treatment by paying more.

      Could an airline charge twice, or three times as much, with the promise of better service? No, absolutely not: they'd still be fucked-up by the airline terminals and flight scheduling. There's no getting around that.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    4. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by khallow · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately though, business travellers have become too used to being able to pick exactly whatever time they want...

      This doesn't really differ from the previous poster's claims. You're just saying that customers consider the availability of the flight as well as the cost. And the bit about how airlines could make more mone with larger planes? They can't because they'll lose customers to the other airlines.

      Unfortunately though, business travellers have become too used to being able to pick exactly whatever time they want...

      If the only food was cubesteak, I'm pretty sure that food producers could save a lot of money. Unfortunately, people have become used to eating whatever food they want...

    5. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Locking dozens of people into a small metal tube for hours on end without food, water, or facilities is criminal.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    6. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by fm6 · · Score: 1

      It isn't just terminals and flight scheduling. I'd pay extra for a seat that that I can sit in comfortably for 8 hours. How much is actually having your luggage with you when you go on vacation worth? If it were possible to pay a little extra and get guarantees for stuff like this, a lot of people would do so. But apparently not enough, because no airline says "we cost a little more, but we're worth it". It's all price competition.

    7. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Show me one airline reservations site that ranks flights by "quality of service".

      Today nearly everything is all about price and be damned with anything else. You can sort things by price easily because it is an easily quantifiable number. Quality is far more subjective and it is a lot more difficult to organize things by "quality".

      Therefore, in the age of the Internet we sort things by price. There are no other meaningful criteria.

    8. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1
      If it were possible to pay a little extra and get guarantees for stuff like this, a lot of people would do so. But apparently not enough

      Keep in mind you *can* get better 'than that', you just have to pay for it. Want more legroom on a domestic flight? Pay for Economy Plus on United. Want more internationally? Fly "deluxe economy" on one of the international carriers. Want to pay a fare that's still less than a comparable 1960s fare (indexed to inflation)? Fly business class.

      Here's a quote I've always liked:

      Robert Crandall, the crusty former boss at American Airlines, used to say that customers always talk in surveys about food and legroom. But when it comes to buying tickets, the only thing that ever matters to them is price.

      In other words, good service is nice but we'll put up with a lot if it means a cheaper seat. Americans, as a rule, won't pay more for a plusher seat or better food. And U.S. airlines know it."

      Source:

      http://money.cnn.com/2005/06/02/pf/goodlife/best_airlines/?cnn=yes

    9. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by green1 · · Score: 1

      >> And the bit about how airlines could make more mone with larger
      >> planes? They can't because they'll lose customers to the other
      >> airlines.

      The point was that if they used fewer larger planes they could offer a lower price than the competition, and still make more money. (this would likely make up for the fact that they only fly to the other city 2-4 times a day instead of 10-12

      The cost per traveller per km decreases significantly when you have more people on an aircraft.

    10. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is the way that many people make points these days on the Internet, and in books like this that said people read. Go read any far left or far right blog or forum and you will witness a breathtaking amount of hatred and vitriol towards anyone or anything that rubs the posters the wrong way, from mailmen to Walmart to Bush to Obama. It's an effective way to stifle debate because it completely detracts from the actual point being made.

    11. Re:Get Over Yourselves People! by khallow · · Score: 1

      So why aren't they making the obvious choice? Because it'll lose them money. I see two effects. First, there's the bit you mention about customers wanting more convenient flights. Second, there's the matter of the heavy load flights. Most flights hop planes. By using small planes on the less frequent routes, the airlines improve greatly the load balancing on the high demand routes.

  38. Missing Stuff: Airline Execs from Hell by postbigbang · · Score: 1

    How they ever got back up the River Styx I'll never know. Like the lamebrains at United with their expansion hopes and boorish customer service treatment for the past decade.... the current head of US Airways that want to merge with anybody, please, anybody, all while driving profits and service to the bottom of the list with United. Remember Ted?

    A lot of these airlines don't deserve to be in business. I say: let them go bankrupt and good riddance to bad and boorish service and death by a thousand cuts attitude towards their customers and their own staff.

    Mod me troll, but the airlines have to rethink what they're doing, if we're going to survive them.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    1. Re:Missing Stuff: Airline Execs from Hell by T-Bucket · · Score: 1

      Just read an article about how United stands to make about $150 million from selling off some of their old 737's. What's truly interesting is that the executives just finished voting themselves a big fat bonus of, wait for it, about $150 million! And you wonder why the airlines constantly go bankrupt!

    2. Re:Missing Stuff: Airline Execs from Hell by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      No, I don't wonder why at all. There's a mentality at virtually all of them that needs a change. I've been flying for 35 years; seen it all. Southwest, American, and on a good day Continental, seem to try to show common sense and customer-focused values. The rest of them seem to be very greed-focused. At first, they seemed like a bunch of young Howard Hughes, but now I think they all want to be Richard Bransons and airlines are the touch-stone to their fantasies. For me, the punishment is over 2.6 million logged flying miles. They need to be spanked.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  39. Mod parent up! by querist · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have to agree.

    I've flown in Europe and Asia as well as here in the USA, and I have to say that it's the worst in the USA.

    US: Four hour flight - peanuts and a diet coke.

    In the UK I had a flight delayed due to a medical emergency on the plane that was going to be the plane for my flight back to the USA. I don't know if it was the airline or the airport, but either way all of the passengers were given a good-sized voucher for a meal. I was stuffed and not at all thirsty and still had "money" left on the voucher, so it clearly covered that need nicely.

    Japan: connecting flight was late. When you are landing from an international flight it doesn't matter if you're just leaving Japan again, you still need to go through security to board another plane. They set up two separate security queues for us to make sure we made our connecting flight to China.

    China: Only ever had two delays, one was about 30 minutes with an reason and the other was a couple of hours - no reason needed - the storm was obvious. Two hour flight that happened to be over lunch time - full meal (and quite good, actually - China Southern Airlines). Four hour flight near dinner - full meal again. Both flights had two rounds of drinks and snacks.

    The USA's airlines can learn a few things from other nations' airlines.

    1. Re:Mod parent up! by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      of course, in the EU, they do have a passengers bill of rights.

      in the us, we have unions.

  40. Re:If that was the case... by jandrese · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why are bus and train routes on time more often than planes?
    I see someone has never taken Amtrak or Grayhound ever. On Amtrak is is not unusual at all to be delayed 6 hours because some freight train has priority over you, and the Amtrak employees could care less except that when their shift ends they're out of there, no matter where you are.
    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  41. Why the decline? Easy. Price. by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

    The reasons for the meltdown in the air traffic system are complex. The book names a number of reasons for today's chaos. Some of these include airline deregulation, multiple governmental agencies with no central oversight or responsibility, multiple corporate entities with conflicting agendas, an air traffic controllers union resisting change, a technologically outdated air traffic control system, and more.

    A round trip flight from NYC to LA in 1965 cost $220. That's $1,450 in 2007 dollars. Now that same flight runs $375.

    The air travel industry and infrastructure is being run on a shoestring budget compared to the "glory days" of flying. You get what you pay for.

    --
    Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
  42. Re:If that was the case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    > Why are bus and train routes on time more often than planes?

    Never ridden Amtrak, have you? Sometimes the train just doesn't even show up!

    Which sort of puzzles me. How do you lose a train?

  43. The Patch by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    Or he can just buy the patch of some Nicorette gum. Problem solved.

    1. Re:The Patch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you know that smoking isn't about the nicotine, but about the habit of putting something in your mouth with your hand?

      Make the smoker's give everyone a BJ on the flight and that will calm them down! and most of the male passengers as well...

      *Note, a friend of mine got a free BJ with this very line on a chic he was hitting on (who was trying to quit smoking).

  44. Who's at fault here? by prisoner-of-enigma · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Your accusation of daily air rage, irate terminal passengers, and diverted flight does not correlate with reality. Do these incidents happen? Absolutely. Do they happen with the frequency you suggest? Not even close.

    Further, you seem to place the blame for the above incidents on the airlines alone. As others in this thread have pointed out, comparing 21st-century air travel with the 1950's is absurd. Flying back then was a novelty only enjoyed by those with means. Today, any beer-swilling, uncouth, unwashed, uneducated thug can hop on a plane for what would've been pennies on the inflation-adjusted dollar. This is one reason why I pay for my own upgrades to business class while on business travel. The folks you sit with in business class tend to be (but not always are) polite, educated, and considerate. The legroom and free drinks are just perks compared to not having to deal with someone's advanced case of body odor and lack of manners.

    As for baggage handling issues, that's as much the fault of the airport as it is the airline. Of course, what do you expect when the whole darn thing is run by unions? Incompetent, lazy workers are difficult to fire. Hardworking, intelligent ones have to wait in line to get promoted due to union seniority rules.

    Another thing: what ever happened to requiring the passenger to be something above the level of a dolt when it comes to carryon baggage and airport security screening? How hard is it to read the damned signs saying "take out your laptops and toiletry items" and "take off your shoes, jackets, and blazers"? Security screeners aren't terribly polite, I'll hand you that, but then again they have to deal with the idiots who march right up to the metal detector wearing shoes, a pound of metal jewelry, and leaving their laptop and/or liquids in their baggage.

    Last, consider what you're getting for your dollar. Fuel costs are murdering the airlines right now, yet ticket costs have not kept pace. What do you think that shortfall comes out of?

    Airlines are businesses. They must make a profit or go out of business. If customers are so darned unhappy with what they're getting for their money, they're free to try other modes of transportation (bus! Fun!) or go try and start their own airline that does things they way they want them done -- and then go bankrupt.

    --
    In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  45. I'm baffled! by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    Every one of those screaming kids you see in the grocery store today will become the asshat in seat 30B on your flight to Chicago. *Every* one? Every unruly kid will eventually meld together into one giant asshat entity? And that entity will be in seat 30B on some as yet undetermined flight to Chicago in the future?

    I mean... apart from the fact that I don't believe in precognition, would the multihuman mass organism even fit on the plane?

    Then again, having all the asshats combined into a single giant being might be good as it makes it a single, slow moving target. :-) Or Voltron. Whatever.

  46. Re:If that was the case... by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why are bus and train routes on time more often than planes?

    Most airlines I've flown with show higher "on time" numbers than the Dutch railways (they are now but have been struggling to reach the mandated 86% while we are repeatedly mentioned to have one of the world's most efficient networks).

    Why are so many flights cancelled?

    It happened to me once, to Moscow. I was offered a replacement flight the same day and only because my visum was about to expire I had not a single hour to spare - our fault (business trip). It happened to a friend of mine once - we rebooked the flight to another BA one ten minutes later.

    You don't want to know how often I've had a scheduled train exceed that amount of delay or not even showing up at all. The same for metro, tram or bus services. Obviously I travel more by "regular" public transportation than plane, but I'm really not convinced there's a huge difference per mile/km travelled.

    Why are there so many frequent flyer mileage packages which give perks to people who are clearly NOT the everyman?

    I hardly know of any business that doesn't attempt some sort of useless loyalty programme. And frankly, usually I am disappointment when none is available.

    I fly occassionally, twice a year if I'm lucky, round trip, with connections. 5 out of 8 plans I've flown on were delayed.

    I'm sorry to hear that. I make at least twenty different legs a year and maybe one or two of them cause me a delay. Most of my time wasted travelling by plane is by getting there too early because I don't trust getting there on time - blame that on the other forms of transportation.

    More than anything, I do NOT want to be stuck overnight in an airport terminal trying to get home.

    If you book your entire flight at once, most airliners offer you compensation. I must admit I'm specifically lucky here, my bank/creditcard company insures me against delays, I get a huge (more than enough) compensation in case I am forced to get a hotel or buy new clothes and toiletries in case of luggage delay. But I must concede the authors could be right here, I believe this is a good European law where airliners are required to compensate you.

    But you aren't treated like the everyman on an airline, you are treated like crap.

    Never have I felt this way, except maybe when a combined fire and late arrival delayed a flight of mine after stores had closed at the gate (11pm-ish) and we weren't allowed back to the terminal for refreshments even with the two-hour delay. I filed a complaint and got 50% of my total fare back - the full 100% share of that return leg.

    Maybe there's US companies are allowed to treat customers as crap at greater liberty (pun intended), but I seriously doubt it is typical of air travel alone. (Our national railways are required to give refunds as well in case of severe delays. I tried but failed when my 10pm Amtrak train showed up in South Carolina three hours late.)

    (Sidenote: I miss the days when travelling to the US was something one would do for fun, in my case 1997/2001/2002. Continental didn't give me my luggage in 2002 when transferring in Atlanta and entering the country, nobody at customs gave me a hard time for entering the country for three weeks without any luggage and in San Francisco it took me all of ten minutes to asked what to do because it also wasn't there. Actually I pretty much assumed that I could just report it, go to my friends and have it deliver ASAP, which is indeed how these things work.

    "Terminal chaos" has nothing to do with airliners and airports but much more with those inhabitants of this planet who are so braindead to cause a riot when they aren't sure whether they packed a toothbrush while they really aren't going anywhere where they couldn't buy a new one in virtually every street.

    Remember this every time you hear "Mr. Bla, you must board immediately, we're already offloading your luggage" through the terminal speakers, look around you, and then be amazed how airports can function so well with all the idiots using them.

  47. sad state by Digicaf · · Score: 1

    I'm a field engineer that flies to a different spot every week, 5 out of 6 weeks all year long.

    None of my flights this year have been on time.

    Not... A... Single... One...

    I've spent more nights in Atlanta than I ever wanted too thanks to ATL, Delta, and the nightmare that is the entire northeast United States ATC right now.

    It's gotten to a point where I'm considering a 33% pay cut just to stop traveling.

    1. Re:sad state by dirkbaztard · · Score: 1

      Yep, but if you at the statistics provided by the airlines, every one of those flights you were on departed on time and arrived on time. Of course the airlines admitted definition of on time entails moving the plane from the departure gate, not the actual take off of the flight. So you get to the airport 1-2 hours before the flight, sit around waiting to board, finally get to your seat, and then the plane gets pushed back from the gate and you sit for another 30 minutes to 1 hour on the ground before you even get airborne. Then there's the snakes! Everybody listen up! We have to put a barrier between us and the snakes!

    2. Re:sad state by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      >>>>5 out of 6 weeks all year long.

      please explain that. 3 out of 4 weeks a monnth, ok.

      but 5 out of 6 weeks all year long... i dont get it.

  48. Pictures by sskagent · · Score: 1

    If one looks at pictures of airline flights from the 1960s, you will see well-dressed passengers enjoying their flight. I'm pretty sure those 'pictures' are what we in the biz call 'advertisements' and usually always depict everybody enjoying everything.
  49. If only... by strabes · · Score: 1

    Some of these include airline deregulation, multiple governmental agencies with no central oversight or responsibility, multiple corporate entities with conflicting agendas If only we had more government regulation and involvement in the airline industry! It would run so much more smoothly and be so much better overall, just like what happens to everything else when the government gets involved. Examples: retirement (Social Security), health care (Medicare/medicaid), insurance (Louisiana/Katrina), education (self explanatory), economic growth (Carter Administration/1970s in general), and combating poverty (welfare).
    --
    Its = possessive. It's = "it is"
  50. I don't see it by bamwham · · Score: 1

    I hear alot about how bad air travel is, but I don't see it. I fly about six times a year and have been for the last decade. The only increased hassle I have noticed is with the TSA checkpoints and those have basically remained consistent for the last five years (I now plan a stop at a drug store into my first day at my destination, big deal). My planes arrive within an hour of their scheduled time, okay so they aren't usually on-time, but if it is important for me to get there at a certain I time I plan accordingly. In particular if I stand to lose money if I'm late I arrive quite a bit early. I've lost one bag in my decade of flying and while it did take a week to get back to me, it didn't really matter because there wasn't anything important in it: because any fool knows you carry the important stuff with you or better yet leave it at home.

    The biggest hassles have been caused by weather but I'm hardly going to declare air-travel defunct because I have problems for three months a year.

    I'll check out the book because it sounds interesting, but I think the claim that Air travel is really that bad is just hype from the media, i.e. a few bad stories blown out of proportion, together with the same angry people I see driving on our roads just looking for something and someone to be upset with.

    1. Re:I don't see it by mschuyler · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with you. I don't fly constantly like some people, but every flight I've had has been on time within 15 minutes. Security was rough when it started, but has improved dramatically and is much faster than it used to be. I've never had a luggage issue (though they are rough on the bags) My last 'late' flight was because a fuel truck crapped out underneath the wing. They made the time up in the air. The seats are cramped and the food, when available, is dismal, but as far as transportation, it works. Maybe I've just been lucky.

      --
      How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
    2. Re:I don't see it by bamwham · · Score: 1

      You reminded me: The one thing I would change in fact would be to eliminate the food service entirely. From my perspective it just increases the chance that I will be woken from my sleep during the flight, from the airlines perspective it is just an added expense which increases the risk of injury to passengers and crew and doesn't actually do anything to help get the passengers to their destination, which in the end is what we've paid for.

  51. SImple by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are all holding out as long as they can, and they are hoping most of their competitor go out of business before they do. When there are only 2-3 airline companies left, the prices will shoot up.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  52. It's obvious and you missed it by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    It's broken because no one owns it and has ultimate responsibility.

    No one wants to stick their neck out to push the others into fixing it because they'd get blamed for every little thing that went wrong.

    No one wants the others to fix it because they don't want the others to get credit.

    It's the tragedy of the commons.

    It's the same problem with schools: teachers unions and school boards don't want to take the blame and don't want the other to get credit, so neither makes any move for fear of being blamed and each jumps on the other negatively to prevent the other getting any credit.

    1. Re:It's obvious and you missed it by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      aint that what this book is all about?

    2. Re:It's obvious and you missed it by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      aint that what this book is all about?

      Precisely. I was responding to someone who missed it, and it bears repeating. Politicians aren't interested in solving problems, only in offering non-solutions to steal thunder and prevent anyone else from either getting credit or assigning blame to them.
    3. Re:It's obvious and you missed it by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      and that is sooooooo Washington, DC!!!!

  53. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Reziac · · Score: 1

    You're sure right about that. We're raising a generation of 300 pound emotional-toddlers; how the hell do you EXPECT them to act any time their will is thwarted? especially since there are so many gov't agencies devoted to wasting everyone's time, thus setting off those toddler-tantrums.

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  54. Traveling by sjbe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    getting there is supposed to be half the fun. Unless your goal is specifically to wander (nothing wrong with that) then no, getting there is NOT half the fun. It's not even 1% of the fun. When I visited China I went to see China - not to have "half the fun" on the inside of a 747 and certainly not getting seasick on a boat for several weeks. That prospect does not appeal to me in the slightest.


    I personally don't enjoy the actual act of riding/driving/flying from point A to point B in most cases. I consider it a waste of my time and hence my life. If I want to stop a bunch of places along the way I'd prefer it be intentional. You may feel differently and that's fine. I would like to spend my life doing the things I enjoy, not the things you think I should enjoy. Riding a vehicle somewhere is not what I personally enjoy.

    1. Re:Traveling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      did the thought "the world is not my personal oyster" ever cross your mind?

  55. Re:If that was the case... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
    I fly around 40 trips a year (yes, I rack up about 250,000 miles a year, and about 80 takeoffs and - so far - a matching number of landings annually). This includes inside the US, Asia, and Europe.

    So far, I am seriously delayed (meaning by more than 20 minutes) about twice a year. If only the trains I ride (in the NE US corridor, Asia, or the EU) and buses (here in Seattle, Shanghai, Singapore, Brussels, Paris, and Berlin) were only so regular.

    Additionally, on the two times in the last 3 years where my delay was significant and would result in me missing another connection or critical meeting, the airline located an alternate airline for me, booked me, and gave me a meal coupon to boot.

    Would I rather not have to change? Sure! But if there's a screwup at least the airlines own up to it and do what they can to make it right (NOTE: to get this treatment you need to be calm and courteous to the counter staff - seriously, it does work).

    I can't remember the last time a bus driver apologized for being late or missing a connection, or a conductor re-booked my tickets because we were late coming out of Zurich.

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  56. Air traffic controllers are conservative by backwardMechanic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...air traffic controllers union resisting change, a technologically outdated air traffic control system... Air traffic controllers are a very conservative bunch. They don't like change. They like to test things *heavily* before putting them into regular use. I like it that way.

    I briefly worked in ATC research. Whatever neat computer system the scientists came up with, the controllers would look at and say "what do we do when it fails?". And they're serious. If the radars go down they can manage a sector by memory and radio comms. It's very impressive. There are lots of shiney new technology-based answers that just aren't reliable enough. The trouble is, too many people are flying.
    1. Re:Air traffic controllers are conservative by lgw · · Score: 1

      You can make a neat computer system reliable, but it isn't cheap. Does it need to be cheap? I'd be more than happy to see my tax dollars used to upgrade infrastructure for once.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  57. At first glace by prestomation · · Score: 1

    At first glance, I thought that it was a case of Konsole killing someone. (Running reiserfs anybody?.....anybody? Aww, too soon?)

  58. Screwed up priorities? by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If somebody really needs to get to another continent within a day, it should be because somebody they love is on their deathbed. It shouldn't be because of yet another business deal. Our priorities are so screwed these days, but I guess that's progress. Who the hell are you to tell me or anyone else what our priorities should be? I welcome fast travel. The faster the better within reason and safety. My life is finite and I'd rather not waste it traveling in unnecessarily slow vehicles when I could be spending my life the way I want to. If slow travel makes you happy that's fine but don't you dare tell me my priorities are screwed up because I don't want to take a week or a month out of my life to travel a few thousand miles.
    1. Re:Screwed up priorities? by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Who the hell are you to tell me or anyone else what our priorities should be?

      A: A guy on the internet. ;-)

      Anyway, I tend to agree with you, but I have to admit that air travel is not without externalities. Mainly, the demand for flights pumps a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere, and that hurts everybody. I guess that's not stopping me from taking the plane when I want to get places, though.

    2. Re:Screwed up priorities? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... I don't want to take a week or a month out of my life to travel a few thousand miles. your priorities are screwed up something fierce, cause you wont take a week or a month out of your life, nor use a webcam,to save your childrens health.
    3. Re:Screwed up priorities? by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Who the hell are you to tell me or anyone else what our priorities should be?

      You realise you live in a society? The things you do in a society affect those other people in the society as well. I might as well run around saying who are you to tell me not to play my car stereo at full blast and drive around the streets at 4am? If what you are doing (flying by plane), is affecting all of us (making the air bad/ destroying the planet), then surely we get a say in it? We are allowed to object.

  59. after reagan canned the controllers... by airdrummer · · Score: 1

    i rented a room with one of the replacements...he told me that not only do they swing shifts _weekly_ (and it takes @ least 2 weeks to adjust to a time shift of that magnitude) they also swing forward: working an earlier shift, even though it's easier to adjust to a later shift (just as it's easier to fly west than east).

    thus the faa deliberately kept its atcs in a state of sleep-deprivation, jeopardizing not only their health, but also the safety of the airline passengers:-(

  60. Re:If that was the case... by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

    Why are bus routes on time more often than planes?

    I'm betting you've never ridden Greyhound...

    On time, my rear... and the drivers and staff are hostile to those with disabilites to boot.

    --
    Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
  61. LGA to ORD a " 3-hour flight" to the airlines? by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    Says who? I just booked on United BWI to ORD (a longer distance) it says 2 hours 3 minutes on the itinerary.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
  62. Re:Back in the day... Fleas??? by davidsyes · · Score: 1

    "Business people need to get over this prehistoric desire to go pick fleas off fellow apes if they want to sign deals with them."

    Hehehe, well, unlike you, those business executives have a craving for EATING those fleas. There aren't yet any palatable digital fleas to pick or eat. I guess these are nit-picky/flea-picking execs?

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  63. oh yeah? by mcmonkey · · Score: 1

    A round trip flight from NYC to LA in 1965 cost $220. That's $1,450 in 2007 dollars. Now that same flight runs $375.

    How much was a computer in 1965? How much is that in 2008 dollars? How much is a computer today?

    Guess that means no one has a right to complain about Vista or any other PC issues.

    Or it could mean, technology advances and efficency improves. As an employee in 2008, I provide more value for less money than the worker in 1965. As a customer, I expect the same.

    1. Re:oh yeah? by east+coast · · Score: 1

      Not to take this out of the OPs hands but...

      Efficiency has little to do with this. I guess if you really wanted to get down to it there are other things you'd have to take in consideration but the bottom line is that air travel has not fallen at the same pace, if at all, in overhead as computer manufacturing. With the price of fuel I find it hard to believe it went down at all.

      But take the numbers and consider also that it's cheaper to fly and just like anything that is cheap it lowers the bar on who can take advantage of it. Not to say that the rich are a better grade of people but today's airliners are more like cattle cars with record numbers of people flying. As the population becomes more diverse and the numbers increase the number of problems is going to increase as well. Just look at the vehicle accident numbers of heavily traveled roads versus those that see little traffic.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    2. Re:oh yeah? by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Out of curiosity has the distance from LA to NYC been decreasing every 18 months? Has the price of fuel been decreasing every 18 months?

      Bad analogies are like... a drunk potato.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
  64. Trains don't have to take time by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Take a train, take a boat, take some TIME and enjoy it - getting there is supposed to be half the fun.
    Taking a train need not take time. Using the example in the article, if Chicago-New York is 635 nautical miles (=1,175km) then modern trains like the TGV can travel that distance in 4 hours (that is assuming the operating speed of 320km/h, not the max speed of 574.8 km/h). If current flights are scheduled at 3 hours then in this case a train would be far faster since there is no need to arrive 1-2 hours beforehand for your body cavity search plus you start and end at stations which, at least for Chicago, are in the city centre. Other advantages are onboard power, WiFi, cellphone coverage, something to look at out of the window etc.

    It's true that the monetary cost of setting up such a network is not trivial but if you factor in the environmental cost of planes the question you might want to ask is can you afford not to?
    1. Re:Trains don't have to take time by smchris · · Score: 1

      You ain't from around these parts, is you? The U.S. rail infrastructure has degenerated to strictly third world condition. I've ridden Amtrak at 25 mph for an hour or so on more than one occasion because they didn't think the stretch of track was safe for higher speed. 25 mph on other occasions because Amtrak is only a renter of the rails and freight trains weren't out of their way when they were supposed to be. You have to understand that "Amtrak" is mostly a few locomotives, cars and a ticketing/scheduling structure. And another occasion of going around flooded tracks that had us switching in the middle of nowhere to continue on in the right direction. The locals were out taking pictures of our train. As of today, Amtrak hasn't run the c. 500 miles of St. Paul/Chicago for two weeks because of flooding and is busing people between that stretch.

      And when you are talking considerable time, that can multiply into considerable cost. At a certain vertical angle, I just don't sleep so coach isn't an option. I've done California to the Midwest and two round-trips to the East Coast but it's true that an Amtrak sleeper is far from the cheapest way to travel.

      That said, there is something to be said for the experience of passing through America's back yard. And the stations are downtown, often beautiful and they haven't ground down the staff yet to be as surly as airport staff. And it is really only a question of working through one's own stressed hyperactivity in order to understand that you _can_ get work done on a train and done pleasantly.

  65. Air travel isn't profitable by Animats · · Score: 1

    Overall, the entire history of aviation is a slight financial loss. Someone worked that out around 2000, before 9/11. It's striking how many airlines go bankrupt. We've lost two so far this year (Aloha and ATA), and those are just the ones that ceased operations outright.

  66. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by why-is-it · · Score: 1

    40 years ago, someone who started pitching a violent and/or profane fit in close quarters where other people had paid for a service (like watching a movie or traveling for a few hours) could reasonably expect a sound thumping from someone willing to shut them up. And no jury in the world would give the person doing the thumping a hard time.

    Even if this were true (and I think not,) I find it disturbing that someone would wax nostalgic about assault being a socially acceptable way to deal with public annoyances.

    Shame used to be a useful tool.

    Public stoning used to be a useful tool as well, but we have (hopefully) evolved beyond such crude methods.

    We've become a coddling culture, and this is the price we pay

    Should I get off your lawn now?

    Every one of those screaming kids you see in the grocery store today will become the asshat in seat 30B on your flight to Chicago.

    It sounds like empathy isn't one of your strong suits, so I won't ask you to have some for the parents of said kids, even though _every_ toddler in existence has freaked out in public when it it is least convenient to his/her parents, at least once.

    Whether you like it or not, children are going to behave like children. The Victorian-era belief that children should be seen and not heard is long gone, and rightly so. However, there will be times when a child's age-appropriate behaviour is undesirable. At those times, adults need to behave like adults. The child is not deliberately trying to offend, so the grown-ups should act their age. The inconvenience is only temporary, so deal with it.

    And yes, I have been stuck on a transatlantic flight with a colicky infant in the seat behind me.

    --
    *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
  67. You still have RELIGION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's just that it is now The Free Market (righter of wrongs, able to fix ANY PROBLEM).

    Oh, and while I'm here, saying "The ticket price then is $2000 in today's money" please add in how much it cost for a plane then "in today's money". How much it cost to build an airport "in today's money" and how much it cost to run "in today's money".

    The profit margins weren't much different in them days.

    So, despite a "small" profit, they managed their airlines better.

  68. Easy Solution - Ban Private Airplanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Easy solution to that - Everything except for airlines, military, and air ambulance flights need to be banned. There's no reason that rich corporate fatcats with private jets should be able to jump the security lines anyway. Private airplanes make up 75% of all flights. Ground them all and the system will improve. (Or at the very least, all those rich types will get pissed off at the airlines and MAKE things improve.) It'll decrease noise and environmental pollution as well, and free up all those countless small airports for more useful land development. Sounds win-win to me, but it won't happen because the AOPA (The NRA of the air) will never give up their precious flying SUVs.

    The europeans have severely curtailed private flight, and instituted a strict (and very expensive) set of fees and restrictions to keep it in check. That's why their system is the envy of the world and ours looks like the stone age. Most of our jets still rely on radar to navigate, they aren't even using GPS. (My Prius has more advanced navigation than a Boeing 747. Good going, FAA!)

  69. Yes, but... by rewt66 · · Score: 1

    The US is much less religious than it was 50 years ago. It is also much less civil than it was 50 years ago. So the historical trend in the US backs the grandparent's point; the current geographical data backs the parent's point. Now what?

    And, by the way, if your religion makes you less civil to unbelievers, then your religion needs help. I admit that some religious people are like that, but then, some atheists aren't very civil to non-atheists either...

    1. Re:Yes, but... by Lurker2288 · · Score: 1

      You know what else there are fewer of now than there used to be? Pirates. Therefore, the declining trend in western civility and religiosity back support my point that pirates create religion and politeness by scaring the hell out of people and causing them to pray more.

      Seriously, you're on /.: do you really need to be told that correlation != causation?

      You want to see proof that religion doesn't automatically create good manners, spend an evening in a Catholic church bingo hall.

  70. Coming from someone who used to supply ATC equipme by Sonny_Jimbod · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't say it's a case of "a technologically outdated air traffic control system", as you wouldn't believe the amount of money that gets poured into the business. On the whole the actual tech isn't that bad/old but there is a lot of "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" mentality, which I totally believe in. The other problem with new equipment is that there are so many rules and regulations it's very hard for equipment/software to be certified for use. The area where modern technology can play a big role is in radar tracking. I remember seeing one tracking system that took up an entire rack, with 5-6 servers, yet could only efficiently track a small number of planes accurately and they all required 'tinkering' to get the best results. One thing that did surprise me was the fact that because a typical ATC screen has 2048x2048 pixels (they are square because historically they used circular radar sweeps), they don't have a reliable method to record the video signal going to the monitor. Hence, most ATC recording systems relying on 'sniffing' the data as it goes through the graphics processor and then replaying it at a later date. This causes all sorts of problems, like tracks not being displayed exactly the same etc etc A lot of the places I went into had billions of $'s worth of equipment, yet they still passed around bits of wood with flight strips on them. Paper doesn't crash.

  71. Yup. by mkcmkc · · Score: 1

    Having lived through his administration, I'd have to say that that's pretty much correct. GWB makes him look like Mother Theresa by comparison, of course...

    --
    "Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
  72. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I find it disturbing that someone would wax nostalgic about assault being a socially acceptable way to deal with public annoyances

    So, instead, you find assault by someone ELSE to be acceptable, because they're in a bad mood? Having someone scream at you, throw things, shove people out of their way, physically harass flight attendants, etc... THAT's OK, but laying a hand on them to get them to stop? The horror! Lock those people AWAY for looking to keep civilization civilized without having to call in a public servant, who will arrive in an hour or so. Maybe.

    Should I get off your lawn now?

    That's your response to a description of a culture that coddles people having angry, violent fits in public? That only unreasonable old people who don't want their property vandalized would also be upset about watching a retail clerk or a flight attendant get abused?

    It sounds like empathy isn't one of your strong suits

    No, it sounds like YOU are the one with misplaced empathy. You have zero empathy for the 100 people that one loudmouthed, obnoxious jerk can impact when no one stops them from going on some "rage" because they're displeased with the size of their peanut bag, or can't grasp why they shouldn't talk loudly through your $10 movie.

    I won't ask you to have some for the parents of said kids

    Why? I imagine that some of them - while having been shamed out of ever disciplining their kids - are none the less embarassed by the little punks they've raised. I have a lot of empathy for them, since they're surrounded by teachers, preachers, shrinks, and PBS specials that seek to drown out their commons sense.

    _every_ toddler in existence has freaked out in public when it it is least convenient to his/her parents

    Yes, and those parents used to grab that kid and march them right out of the movie, or not buy them the ice cream they're screaming about. And where do you draw the line on your use of the word "toddler," anyway? I'm talking about kids as old as 6 or 8 or 10+.

    The child is not deliberately trying to offend

    No, the child is usually trying to manipulate the parent into a desired action (or cease an undesired action). And parents give in. Big time. As a result, that sense of entitlement sets in very early, and permanently. As does the Drama Queen methodology.

    I have been stuck on a transatlantic flight with a colicky infant in the seat behind me

    How about a boorish 18 year old loudly repeating over and over (for hours) that Virgin "like, totally SUCKS" for not making her text messaging work while somewhere over the middle of the Atlantic, and throwing a food tray into the aisle when asked if she was done with her meal? I've been stuck with her, too.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  73. Similar research by authors by m000 · · Score: 1

    I saw the lead author, George Donahue, give a lecture (Air Transportation: A Tale of Prisoners, Sheep and Autocrats) on his research last year. He's a very engaging speaker; I hope he's an equally good writer.

    The Center for Air Transportation Research, of which Donahue is the director, has a long list of free, online publications here on topics related to this book.

    1. Re:Similar research by authors by Jansingal · · Score: 1

      and if he is sooooo smart, why are all the ATC guys posting negative reviews of his book? huh? huh? huh?

  74. Re:Significantly *fewer*. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you can count something, you use "fewer". When you measure instead of count, you use "less".
    Nonsense.
  75. Re:If that was the case... by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Informative

    and the Amtrak employees could care less except that when their shift ends they're out of there, no matter where you are.
    The Amtrak crews will abandon their trains in the boondocks not to inconvenience the customers, but because it's the law.

    If any operating employee works more than 12 hours after resting 8 hours, he is outlaw, and will actually end up in jail.

    That law was brought about almost a century ago given the high number of accidents that happenned because train crews lacked some sleep.

  76. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by khallow · · Score: 1

    Or maybe it's because 40 years ago, we weren't being treated like rats in a cage. Course you could be telling the truth. In which case, it's worth noting that the cultured, polite people of that time raised the colicky man-children of today.

  77. Re:frosty piss by Jansingal · · Score: 1

    chug it like a polaroid picture!! :)

  78. Mod parent up to cancel the modbombing. by sethstorm · · Score: 0, Troll

    If the book hits on unions as hard as the reviewer seems to indicate, it appears the authors of want to go back to that time when they and their social circles were the only passengers. It just tells who they're aligned with. Same with the persons who moderated it Troll/Flamebait.

    This nation is the poorer for going through the PATCO incident. As an exercise for those anti-union folk, explain why you use force, intimidation, and legal deception towards a non-union workplace.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:Mod parent up to cancel the modbombing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you mean just like the Corporations? I could google all night long and post handy links, but that would be a waste of my time for a troll. Your epic FAIL is here in summary form: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting/ Reading and comprehending history it is your 'exercise'.

  79. You just nailed it by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Airline passengers were the very wealthy elites, now they're not. I work in an airport, and you just nailed the biggest reason for the changes in air travel. Because of deregulation and cheaper air travel technologies, among other things, it's cheaper to fly than it used to be. As another poster puts it, there's a lot more "riff raff" on flights now.

    Of course flying was neater, cleaner, and more pleasant back when only the rich and big business travelers flew. It was essentially a luxury experience back then. Pam Am's Clipper line of flying boats had cuisine and accommodations as luxurious as any you'd find on a big cruise ship. They could afford to with what people were paying. In today's dollars, a Pan Am ticket from San Francisco to Hawaii via Clipper cost the equivalent of $10,000 dollars.

    If anyone could suddenly afford to join your local country club, I promise you it'd get louder, busier, and more crowded too.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  80. Environmental impact of travel by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Anyway, I tend to agree with you, but I have to admit that air travel is not without externalities. Mainly, the demand for flights pumps a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere So does auto travel, rail travel, ship travel, personal watercraft travel and any other powered machine you care to mention. There are a lot of emissions besides just CO2 to worry about as well. I agree completely we should minimize the environmental impact but air travel is not a particularly egregious offender here.
    1. Re:Environmental impact of travel by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      So does auto travel, rail travel, ship travel, personal watercraft travel and any other powered machine you care to mention.

      Sure. And while we're on the subject of other powered machines, it's actually dinky little engines like those in lawnmowers and weedwackers that pump out a lot of unburnt hydrocarbons, not cars.

      But as for planes vs. cars: this site gives "29 kg CO2. per person mile traveled" for aircraft, but "gasoline has 8.87 kg (19.56lbs) of CO2 per gallon" and "The US avg. is about 25 mpg." so, assuming one person in a car (worst case scenario), then we have (8.87kg/gal)/(25 miles/gal) = 0.3548 kg/mile of CO2. Hence, air travel produces 81.7 times the CO2 per person-mile as auto travel -- and that's assuming no carpooling, which increases the number even further.

    2. Re:Environmental impact of travel by sjbe · · Score: 1

      ...air travel produces 81.7 times the CO2 per person-mile as auto travel -- and that's assuming no carpooling, which increases the number even further. I won't dispute your numbers - I've read similar things in the past - but they miss an important point. There are FAR more cars on the road than airplanes. There certainly are more than 80 times as many cars as there are airplanes. Each year a few thousand planes are manufactured. In the US alone auto manufacturers typically sell 14-16 million cars a year. Planes might be worse per mile but automobiles have them in shear numbers.


      Don't get me wrong I completely agree that airplane emissions are severely under regulated along with ships, watercraft, large trucks, locomotives, and lawn care equipment. Let's just agree that there is a problem to be addressed and that planes are not the only significant offender.

    3. Re:Environmental impact of travel by pthor1231 · · Score: 1

      Air Travel - CO2 emissions in air travel vary but we are using an average figure of .6393 pounds of CO2 per person per mile flown. This equals .29 kg CO2. per person mile traveled. Take the number of miles divided by 1,000 and multiply by .29 to get metric tons of CO2 per year.

      You missed the decimal point. Air travel, by that sites estimates, is actually .065kg per mile better.

    4. Re:Environmental impact of travel by shilly · · Score: 1

      You haven't finished the maths, though. There are more cars than planes, but planes travel much further than cars. And you have to look at CO2 equivalent emissions -- planes emit a whole bunch of things at an altitude that considerably increases their impact. Cars are more of a problem, but (1) they're not overwhelmingly more of a problem, (2) they're inherently more amenable to decarbonisation

    5. Re:Environmental impact of travel by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah. I'm not disagreeing on anything. I just thought the numbers were interesting (and surprising).

    6. Re:Environmental impact of travel by TerranFury · · Score: 1

      You missed the decimal point. Air travel, by that sites estimates, is actually .065kg per mile better.

      Thank you! Good correction. Mod parent up.

  81. Smaller value? by jd · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Let's take a look at the numbers. From the article, we have .032 hull losses per 1 million departures vs. .049, which is equal to 32 hpb vs. 49 hpb. If we are measuring in absolute terms, the actual increase is extremely small. If we subtract out some baseline value, however, then the effective increase becomes much larger. (An increase of 1 to 2 is a doubling. An increase of 10 to 11 is a change of 1/10th. The fact that they are both +1 is irrelevent.)

    Can flight be made totally safe? No. Machines have a statistical probability of failure, and that will never be zero. In the case of an aircraft, you have a very complex machine, where each part and the various assemblies of parts right up to the complete system each has a probability of failure. You can make a computer program bug-free long before you can make an aircraft fault-free, because computers are not subject to mechanical issues. The logic of a given statement will always produce the same result for the same input, no matter how many times it is run. (The output may be different - a malloc may discover that memory is exhausted - but the logic, the mathematical postcondition, is fixed and immutable.) Even if you spent an infinite amount of money, and took an infinite amount of care, the risks involved in anything physical is going to be non-zero.

    Therefore, we can subtract this non-zero value from our totals. The totals become "smaller" only if you think in absurd absolute terms. If you look at how many orders of magnitude above the theoretical minimum you are, you are no longer talking in billionths, but in terms of hundreds, thousands or even millions, depending on the complexity of the aircraft and on pure maths modelling of complexity. Notice not only the change in the number of zeros, but where the decimal point is.

    17 per billion flights is a tiny difference in failures. 53% greater risk is a hell of a lot bigger. But if we subtract a baseline value, that percentage goes UP, not down.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  82. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HELL YEAH!

    And its not just us, I'm looking at you the UK, France, Germany and Japan.

    I remember a time when I would act up as a child and all my father had to do was look at me. He wasn't denying my individuality but subtly letting me know that I should stop or he was going to beat my ass when we got home. He never actually beat my ass. He never had to because he would sit me down and talk/explain to me how a civilized person was supposed to act in society.

    There's no point in getting irritated with a gate worker at the airport. They have no control over the damn plane. This is a great example of how the ENTIRE world has adopted a "ME ME ME ME" mentality.

    Also, I have a cutout of The Duke in True Grit standing in my office. Goddamn he was a bad ass.

  83. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it a question of teh actor perspective rather than the structural perspective? Of course, one needs to weigh in both perspectives appropriately and in context.

  84. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    it's worth noting that the cultured, polite people of that time raised the colicky man-children of today

    No, they just won WWII, and swore that their own children would have better, easier lives. They didn't anticipate the impact of the Nanny State mentality started by FDR, and gave their kids the benefit of the doubt when it came to forming their own solid world view. Turns out it really helps to have a clear picture of it when you're a little kid, rather than re-discovering it when you're 40.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  85. A Modest Proposal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if every airline executive were forced to fly one round trip per week on his own airline as a tourist-class passenger? With checked luggage! Better still, force them to connect through Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, or Philadelphia. Maybe then they would begin to understand how awful the service they provide really is.

    I fly about 1 round-trip (4 "legs") per month. In the past few years, I've seen more cancelled than on-time flights, and more ticket passengers left at the gate than empty seats on the planes. No "lost" bags, but many that were delayed for several days. And the airlines are not the only culprits. There is nothing quite as enjoyable as standing in customs and immigration lines for hours, then being told by TSA that they can't accept your bag for re-check because it is now only 58 minutes before the scheduled connection.

  86. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

    How about a boorish 18 year old loudly repeating over and over (for hours) that Virgin "like, totally SUCKS" for not making her text messaging work while somewhere over the middle of the Atlantic, and throwing a food tray into the aisle when asked if she was done with her meal? I've been stuck with her, too. Don't date 18 year old girls. And if you do, definitely don't take them on vacation to Europe.
    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  87. Re:LGA to ORD a " 3-hour flight" to the airlines? by level99 · · Score: 1
    This is my flight tomorrow:

    Flight: from New York, NY (LGA-LaGuardia) to Chicago, IL (ORD-O'Hare)
    Depart: Thu 26-Jun-08 at 6:00 AM
    Arrive: Thu 26-Jun-08 at 7:19 AM

    Depart: New York (LGA), 26-Jun-08 at 6:00 AM Terminal: CENTRAL TERMINAL
    Arrive: Chicago (ORD), 26-Jun-08 at 7:19 AM Terminal: 1
    Flight: United 667
    Aircraft: Airbus A319
    Meal Service: n/a
    Duration: 2hr 19mn
    Distance: 725 mi (1,167 km)

    So while 3 hours is a stretch, its ballpark. Ish.
  88. Re:If that was the case... by The_mad_linguist · · Score: 1

    Where I live, in the first three years after the Amtrak was installed, it was never on time.

    Not.

    Even.

    Once.

    There was a newspaper article about it, in fact.

  89. Re:If that was the case... by StrahdVZ · · Score: 1

    Why are bus and train routes on time more often than planes?

    Why are so many flights cancelled?

    - Much higher safety and maintenance standards (remember you're dealing with highly pressurized tubes that hurtle through the sky 30,000 feet above the earth's surface at 450 miles per hour)
    - Much more reliant on weather (storms, snow, winds, visibility)
    - Delays caused by even just varation in good weather (a strong headwind versus a strong tailwind for a long haul flight will vary the flight time by something like an hour).
    - A very limited number of airport runways requires intense scheduling. Air Traffic Controllers are amongst the most hellishly stressful jobs in the world.

    Combine poor weather with the need to meet stringent aircraft safety checks, along with scheduling thousands of planes per day to either depart, land or simply just taxi across just 2-4 runways WITHOUT causing collisions.

    Delays and cancellations are inevitable, and once there is just a few simple delays it causes an entire chain reaction that not only affects the current airport but also all the connecting destination airports of the delayed airport.

  90. no, the Trailways bus of today by alizard · · Score: 1

    is the Trailways or Greyhound bus of today.

    The reason you don't see celebrities and wealthy people even in first class anymore is that it's worth the price of either renting or buying a private jet to avoid the TSA bullshit.

    The difference between being wealthy and super-wealthy is that the super-wealthy owns their own private jets, the wealthy rent or borrow from their richer friends.

    Once the wealthy stopped flying commercial, the airlines were free to treat passenger like cattle because they didn't have to worry about annoying people in a position to make life truly miserable for them.

  91. Reformat and reinstall the country, please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The country's bureaucracy, debt, currency, laws, and infrastructure needs to be wiped clean and built from scratch with modern technology. Who's with me?

  92. "alternate revenue source" by RustinHWright · · Score: 1

    And this revenue source is? . . .

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
    1. Re:"alternate revenue source" by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      YOU!*

      *If you live in the US and pay taxes. AMTRAK is a welfare queen.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  93. Here's the problem. by T-Bucket · · Score: 1

    You want to know what the real problem is? Scheduling 300 flights an hour into an airport that can handle 250 flights per hour. Amazing that that causes delays. Even more amazing that it causes delays when the weather craps up, and reduces that airport to half it's capacity as everyone's shooting ILS's to minimums...

    I flew a four day trip in and out of IAD last week. Out of sixteen legs total, we had TWO that left on time. I'd say maybe 4 more were due to weather. The rest? "Uh, sorry your plane's late due to traffic". or "Cleared for the push, head to the rwy30 block to wait for your wheels up time due to flow into EWR"

    It's ridiculous. But it's not the ATC guys' fault. Not even their union. It's the morons running the airlines.

  94. Re:If that was the case... by rsmith-mac · · Score: 1

    Viva la Coast Starlate, one of the most delayed trains in the United States. If it's ever on time be very, very afraid, the apocalypse can't be far behind.

  95. two huge flaws in this analysis by m0llusk · · Score: 1

    Maybe this is just the reviewer, but there appear to be two gaping flaws in this analysis: scapegoating and lack of comprehension of political context. Air travel is not just a source of vacation jokes, but a critical element of getting business done. Technology development is particularly dependent on air travel for education, meeting, and conventions.

    The review states:
    ... the tragedy is that Washington lacks anyone with the pragmatism, willpower and audacity to stand up to the unions ...

    Reagan not only stood up to the unions, but played hardball with them. By ignoring the issues they raised and deliberately dispersing them Reagan personally created much of this tragedy. The only way to address these issues is to be genuinely interested, be sensitive to problems both airline employees and travellers have, listen to what people have to say, look at the facts, and then work with everyone over as long a period as necessary to make things right. Having the audacity to stand up to the unions is now well demonstrated to be a methodology for making things worse, not for helping solve any problems.

    Then it is stated that
    Chapter 7 lists a number of practical ways in which the air traffic control system can be modernized. Some of the suggestions would require significant financial outlays; others simply require all of the parties involved to play nicely together.

    Even if the current system is expanded or partially rebuilt that will mean a significant cost, but all of this taken together strongly suggests that the entire marketplace and the technologies that support it are in need of reengineering. This absolutely requires both significant financial outlays and all parties playing nicely together. The primary cause of the problems highlighted in the review is that the parties involved are playing aggressive hardball, so that is essentially the core issue. Once people start working together, then the hard work that needs to be done can begin. As long as everyone involved continues to be mired in this impractical and childish business of having the audacity to stand up to one another no progress will be made.

  96. Air travel is profitable by m0llusk · · Score: 1

    Southwest makes lots of money and has the best paid pilots. There are solid reasons for this, most importantly that they provide direct flights instead of using a hub and spoke system. The hub and spoke systems that most of the industry has used in the past and continues to use now has been proven to be fundamentally inefficient.

  97. Re:If that was the case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hoo boy is this ever right. Amtrak from Greenville to Philadelphia last year -- departed three hours late, arrived seven hours late.

    Really, though, the empoyees don't care because it happens every day and they can't do anything about it.

  98. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by CmdrGravy · · Score: 1

    I was on holiday in Thailand last week and had the misfortune to be on the bus with some spoilt American brats in their early 20s. We were going to a national park and everyone had to pay the entrance fee. The American brats had mostly managed to buy themselves fake student cards from Bangkok and were pretending to be students to get a 50% discount except one who had forgotten hers and was shouting and yelling at the bus conductor that he was being unfair and he couldn't treat her like this and when he took no notice she went into an enormous sulk hitting her seat and slamming the bus door. It was quite disgusting behaviour.

  99. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by khallow · · Score: 1

    But it still means that those people resulted in this mess. I don't make this particular point to continue the pointless generation conflict thing that's been going around, but to point out the hard truth about nostalgia. If yesterday was so wonderful, then how did we come to today? My take is that simply politeness has been weeded out both by the pressures of modern urban society (less time and more interactions with people) and by the inclusion of a number of cultures that have different standards for politeness. The result has been that's it's much harder to be polite in modern society and your politeness is much less likely to be reciprocated.

  100. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by why-is-it · · Score: 1

    So, instead, you find assault by someone ELSE to be acceptable, because they're in a bad mood?

    When did I say that? Oh - that's right, I didn't...

    Having someone scream at you, throw things, shove people out of their way, physically harass flight attendants, etc... THAT's OK, but laying a hand on them to get them to stop? The horror! Lock those people AWAY for looking to keep civilization civilized without having to call in a public servant, who will arrive in an hour or so. Maybe.

    First off, there is a big difference rude behaviour and assault, and I think that different situations call for different responses. Even in the latter case, one can intervene without opening up a can of whoop-ass on the offending person. Like I said before, all it takes is for the adults to behave like adults.

    That's your response to a description of a culture that coddles people having angry, violent fits in public?

    I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    Apart from your ranting, I fail to see any evidence that people who freak out in public are not held accountable for their actions. To the contrary, it seems that the authorities tend to taser first (and often) and ask questions later.

    So yes. If you act like a grumpy old curmudgeon, you should expect to be treated like one.

    No, it sounds like YOU are the one with misplaced empathy. You have zero empathy for the 100 people that one loudmouthed, obnoxious jerk can impact when no one stops them from going on some "rage" because they're displeased with the size of their peanut bag, or can't grasp why they shouldn't talk loudly through your $10 movie.

    Remind me again when I said that?

    I do believe that there is a general problem with a lack of common courtesy today. I don't know why but anti-social and rude behaviour is far more common in the US than in Canada and Europe, although the UK seems to be catching up to the Americans...

    Why? I imagine that some of them - while having been shamed out of ever disciplining their kids - are none the less embarassed by the little punks they've raised. I have a lot of empathy for them, since they're surrounded by teachers, preachers, shrinks, and PBS specials that seek to drown out their commons sense.

    And some people think that irony is dead!

    I am going to go out on a limb here, and guess that you do not have any children of your own...

    Yes, and those parents used to grab that kid and march them right out of the movie, or not buy them the ice cream they're screaming about. And where do you draw the line on your use of the word "toddler," anyway? I'm talking about kids as old as 6 or 8 or 10+.

    Again, kids are going to act their age whether the adults like it or not. That's what they do, and that's their job. At those times, adults need to act their age and behave in a mature and responsible way. Unfortunately, parents are people too and they also get tired and have bad days.

    So, when I observe some kids and/or parents having a bad day, I don't take it personally, even if it is disruptive. Instead, I try to find some empathy for both, since I have been on both sides of that situation before. Far better to take that approach, instead of judging them all for their perceived shortcomings.

    No, the child is usually trying to manipulate the parent into a desired action (or cease an undesired action).

    So, the child is acting the way children tend to do. I wonder if you were any different at that age?

    And parents give in. Big time. As a result, that sense of entitlement sets in very early, and permanently. As does the Drama Queen methodology.

    Newsflash: parents sometimes give in. Film at 11!

    Even though that occasionally happens,

    --
    *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
  101. Imagine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine telling your customers that you'll take 1 calendar month to get back to them, while your competitor tells the same customers, that the competitors will get back to the customers in 2 days.

    Imagine telling your customer he can have it in a month for $800 ($400/h x 2h), or in two days for $7900 ($400/h x 16h + $1000 return airfare + $500 accommodation and meals).

    1. Re:Imagine by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 1

      $7900 is a bad deal for most people, but for some people, that's a hug savings, because they can't wait.

  102. Yeah, whatever. by RustinHWright · · Score: 1
    Uh, huh. Getting your "facts" from the Ronald Reagan School of Policy and Framing, are we?

    Dude, the government spends a hell of a lot more subsidizing highways, car company pensions, bailouts like the Chrysler one, and other forms of "welfare" on cars in a week than goes to rail in a year. And given that those Amtrak subsidies are, in effect, also how the government routes many millions of dollars to Union Pacific and friends for use of rights of way that the government subsidized the creation of in the first place, whose pockets that money ends up in are not the ones you seem to think.

    Those of us who live in the fact-based consensus try to keep these things in mind. Try it some time; it might clear your perspectives a bit.

    --
    It's all about the information. And what we do with it.
  103. It doesn't make sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and most likely the 40 hour work week will go back to 60 hours in a couple years

    Which just doesn't make sense.

    Henry Ford switched his workers to a 40 hour work week: not because the union demanded it, but because that's what he found to be optimal when he studied his workers' productivity. At 80 hours per week, overall productivity was less than when the workers worked 60 hours per week. Time was lost fixing the mistakes made due to worker fatigue. At 60 hours per week, productivity was no better than at 40 hours per week.

    Henry Ford was studying assembly-line production, i.e. workers who were concentrating on relatively simple but repetitive tasks. What is the optimal time to spend per day when the activity involves creativity and complex organization, such as programming or trouble-shooting? From postings here and elsewhere, and from my own personal experience, I would guess no more than about five hours per day.

  104. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by toiletsalmon · · Score: 1
    Let's have some fun with what you said: That's because 40 years ago, black people who started pitching a violent and/or profane fit in close quarters where other white people had paid for a service (like watching a movie or traveling for a few hours) could reasonably expect a sound thumping from someone white willing to shut them up.

    Wow. Look at THAT. Cool, huh?

    Ah yes, the "good old days" argument. That always comes up, doesn't it. Well, to quote part of a Billy Joel song, "The good old days weren't always good". Just because YOU think things were, generally speaking, "better" "back in the day", that doesn't mean that everyone feels the way you do. Personally, I think things are alot better now as a whole.

    I disagree with you assertions about a "coddling culture". We've just got way more, self-interested, arrogant assholes running around than we used to. (Think liberals with their "No Smoking" laws and Conservatives with their Christian, "Family Values" bullshit.)
    Now that I think about it, we DO coddle a bit to much, but it's because we're all too busy coddling ourselves (I DESERVE to have what I want because I'm more important than everyone else!) to look at the big picture. Good call.

    P.S. - John Wayne was a bigot.

    "We can't all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don't believe in giving authority and positions of leadership to irresponsible people."
  105. Re:It's all because John Wayne is no lonvger with by Jansingal · · Score: 1

    kind of ironic since john wayne airport (santa ana, ca) is really small, really busy, really long security lines.

    and the tsa people there love it though, especially the ones with the foot fetishes, they can make the shoeless girls stand in line longer.

  106. Mod parent back up. by edgedmurasame · · Score: 1

    If the book hits on unions as hard as the reviewer seems to indicate, it appears the authors of want to go back to that time when they and their social circles were the only passengers. It just tells who they're aligned with. Same with the persons who moderated it (and supporting replies) Troll/Flamebait. This nation is the poorer for going through the PATCO incident. As an exercise for those anti-union folk, explain why you use force, intimidation, and legal deception towards a non-union workplace. They would rather just blame the lack of quality on unions and call it a day.
    --
    "Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.