What Does It Take To Get a PC With XP?

An anonymous reader writes "Christopher Null tried to buy a computer with Windows XP pre-installed on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib."

Comments

How is this difficult?

[Drakin020]

I constantly purchase Dell computers for my work. They come with XP Pre-Installed but they also have a Vista license.

Now for a normal home user, this may be different, but I've had no problems at all.

Maybe it's for the kind of computer...I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Martin Blank]

Corporate customers get significant leeway in their orders, especially if a contract was signed beforehand. Even without those, however, most corporate customers have access through Microsoft to Windows XP under Open, Select, or Software Assurance licenses and if the Vista licenses that come with the computer fall under the terms of those agreements, they may legally downgrade. (There may be some other situations in which a customer may legally install a prior version of Windows, but I'm kind of fuzzy on what they may be.)

Re:How is this difficult?

[philspear]

Now for a normal home user, this may be different, but I've had no problems at all.

Well... we're happy for you? And impressed with your ability to brag about what you're able to purchase for your work?

In answer to your question, it's difficult because we're not you and are, in fact, normal home users.

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't have needed explaining...

Re:How is this difficult?

[TitusC3v5]

Or, if this DOES become a real problem, simply purchase a computer from your local mom and pop PC place. If they're anything like the ones here, they'll be happy to set you up with whatever OS you want, be it XP, Vista, or *nix.

Re:How is this difficult?

[KillerBob]

Go to the Dell website. Click on the computers (either notebook or desktop) for Small/Home Office, instead of for consumers. There, you'll find a product line called the Vostro, which offers the same hardware as the Inspiron line of product, but a different aesthetic look/feel. The difference? On the Vostro, you have an option to upgrade from Vista Home Basic to Vista Business edition... last I checked, it was $90. One of the two Business options is to have it come with XP Professional pre-installed.

It's not hard. You don't have to lie. You don't have to be a business to order it. And you can order it through the website without having to speak to a sales rep. (though you can also ask for it over the phone)

Re:How is this difficult?

[KillerBob]

One more thing... you can also choose that option on the XPS line of gaming systems.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Hatta]

It's not hard. You don't have to lie. You don't have to be a business to order it. And you can order it through the website without having to speak to a sales rep. (though you can also ask for it over the phone)

But you do have to pay extra for it, which is worse than having to lie to get it.

Re:How is this difficult?

[LordVader717]

What the heck? This may somehow shake your current view of the world, but most people here are "normal home users". No matter what their technical knowledge is, no matter how many PCs they have, no matter what OS they use, anybody who isn't purchasing hardware exclusively for their profession is classed as a home user.

Do you meet the requirements for dealing with business customers? Are you employed to make decisions on hardware purchases (and if you do it obviously shouldn't be used privately)? Do you own your own business? Can the computers be depreciated on your tax? If not, you're a normal run-of-the-mill home user.

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

we're not you and are, in fact, normal home users

I'm not you, and I, in fact, only use Windows at work. In my job role I basically get to tell people what they are and are not allowed to purchase in terms of computer hardware, so the OP's post is quite relevant to me.

I have seen at least one other slashdotter claim that they only use Windows because they have to for work as well. I've not seen many claim that they are 'normal home users'. I expect people in that category spend far more time watching YouTube or playing 'The Sims' than they ever do on slashdot. What level of interest does your average computer user actually have in how their computer works? Consider how many drivers are interested in how the alternator in their car works, or even know that their car has an alternator.

Please refrain from using 'we' when referring to yourself - unless you are perhaps royalty or an editor, then it is of course your perogative.

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't have needed explaining...

Re:How is this difficult?

[somersault]

Only someone at our company ordered an XPS that has no equivalent XP drivers. I really didn't want to let them get Vista, but they were wanting something flashy to show off at presentations -.- They now want to install XP on the laptop but tough shit, I warned them in the first place, and if there are no drivers available, then the system may be pretty unusable in XP. There perhaps are hacked XP drivers or even actual XP drivers available now though.. is that a ray of light at the end of the tunnel?

Re:How is this difficult?

[brouski]

But you do have to pay extra for it, which is worse than having to lie to get it.

Only if your soul has no value.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your not really well with grammar, much less anything.

Re:How is this difficult?

[dotancohen]

I purchase Latitudes, and precision computers. If someone wanted an Inspirion it may be different.

Good thing the Inspiron comes with Ubuntu.

Re:How is this difficult?

[LynnwoodRooster]

You always had to pay extra for XP Pro on home machines. Vista Basic is the same as XP Home; you pay to upgrade to Vista Business (XP Pro's replacement) and you get both Vista Business and XP Pro.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Hatta]

There's no such thing as a soul, so it can't have any value.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Medievalist]

Please refrain from using 'we' when referring to yourself - unless you are perhaps royalty or an editor, then it is of course your perogative.

Hey, pr'aps he's got a tapeworm!

I was probably supposed to end that sentence with "you insensitive clod".

Re:How is this difficult?

[cyphercell]

souls are a fiat currency - they have value so long as everyone *believes*.

Re:How is this difficult?

[CowTipperGore]

Even without those, however, most corporate customers have access through Microsoft to Windows XP under Open, Select, or Software Assurance licenses and if the Vista licenses that come with the computer fall under the terms of those agreements, they may legally downgrade.

The licenses that come with the computer are completely separate from Microsoft's volume licensing programs. Dell is selling you an OEM license for Vista that includes downgrade rights, which means you can run Windows Vista, XP, ME, 2000, 98, 95, or 3.1 on that particular computer (volume licensing is not tied to particular hardware). Large VARs and OEMs traditionally did not offer nor support any downgrade options themselves, but the corporate demand for XP over Vista created a significant enough market for some to offer it now. Whether you can get this on a home PC seems to depend on the salesperson you get (at least at Dell), with some offering it at no charge, some refusing to provide it even when requested, and others doing it for a $99 charge.

Re:How is this difficult?

[initdeep]

stop replying with facts to morons.
it makes them look stupid and we can't have that in today's modern world.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Maxwell]

What? Dell's Optiplexs come with XP by default. No extra charge. You get a Vista upgrade CD with it.

How freakin hard is it for slashdottters to visit www.dell.com? Does it not work in Firefox or something?!? This whole thread is hilarious.

Let me summarize: Anyone, no matter where they work, or what they do, can easily order a PC with XP on it, especially from Dell. Heck I was browsing Optiplex 755 order specs yesterday (on a freaking iPhone for crying out loud) and was happy to see XP was the default OS...

Re:How is this difficult?

[ShinmaWa]

You can also go Alienware's website (which is now owned by Dell). I picked out an Area 51 and clicked "customize". Halfway down the page I was offered not one, but two XP options:

( ) Genuine Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 - DirectX 9 Only! [-$50]
( ) Genuine Windows XP Professional - DirectX 9 Only!

Doesn't even cost extra. I also wouldn't call Alienware as targeted to a corporate audience either.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Provocateur]

These come with ... a Vista license and disk to upgrade to Vista, should you ever want to.

And for some odd reason, the disk is wrapped in cloth, that when unfolded turns out to be a straitjacket bearing a warning label: You'll be needing this when *they* come to pick you up. And what appeared to be a EULA was actually some sort of release form...

Re:How is this difficult?

[Khyber]

Good luck finding XP drivers for any of nVidia's newer mobile graphics. I had to hack the .inf file to get the ForceWare installer to recognize my 8600M GS in my HP DV9825 under windows xp pro.

Re:How is this difficult?

[Gewalt]

Wait, you're worried about the eternal ramifications of telling a mistruth... TO A SALESMAN?

Re:How is this difficult?

[PopeRatzo]

Maxwell, I'm not sure what you were looking at, but the only way I could find on the Dell website to get XP on one of their laptops is to pay for Vista Ultimate and then downgrade. The person who submitted this article didn't have an Optiplex in mind, as far as I can tell.

Maybe I'm just missing the magic screen where they make it easy to get XP Pro instead of the MS Vista Ultimate Sucker Edition, but it does in fact seem that Dell has not made it a simple choice.

Re:How is this difficult?

[hairyfeet]

Have you tried Z-tweaked, or maybe Guru3d? I have always had a better experience with their drivers than anything Nvidia puts out,and there drivers are hacked to let you run them on pretty much anything. And I know that one of them does put out mobile drivers because I accidently downloaded them once when I was in a hurry. Finally there is Driverpacks which will let you make a full WinXP DVD with every driver for both desktop and mobile preinstalled. I have an unattended version for repairs and it works beautifully. I hope this helps,and as a PC repairman I can sympathize. Trying to find that one missing driver can be a royal PITA.

Re:How is this difficult?

[jedidiah]

It's as if suddenly XP is getting the "Desktop Linux" treatement...

Re:How is this difficult?

[kabocox]

souls are a fiat currency - they have value so long as everyone *believes*.

Just like every other currency system. Though that would mean believers souls are worth more than nonbelievers souls. Nonbelievers souls wouldn't have any associated value to them, while believers souls would have some attached a value. Basically non believers would have a zero or null value soul. The only usage of that I could see would be avoiding/attracting entities that collect what they see as valuable souls. Of course there could always be some entity that collects zero or null value souls just to piss them off.

Re:How is this difficult?

[gravis777]

We have some HPs with that issue - you can get an XP license, but the hardware does not have XP drivers.

Besides, didn't you say your guy wanted something flashy? Vista is certainly that.

I just get kinda pissed off about people who ditch Vista who have never used it, who have only used early betas, or are trying to run it on underpowered systems, or who complain its too different.

Linux gets ditched by people who have never used it, find it complicated, have not used it in years, and who complain that such and such hardware is not supported by Linux. That does not mean its a bad OS.

I am quite happy with Vista. Two years ago, I was dual-booting between XP and Linux. Now, I run Vista Business exclusively. I find it far more stable than XP, when something does bomb out in it, it is usually able to recover without any ill-effects, and in my experience, on newer machines, with both XP and Vista, Vista way outperforms XP.

In fact, in the IT department I work in, we have been so happy with Vista and Office 2007, we started rolling it out to our users back in May. After they get past the first 5 minutes of "oh my gosh, its different", they usually figure out where everything is, and claim that they will never go back to XP and Office 2003. They LOVE it.

Getting back on subject, what do you need to do to get a computer with XP? Should have bought it before June 30th. Its not as if that came as a surprise to anyone. I mean, that was not even three weeks ago.

So, I just did a build your own laptop on Dell's website and do not see an option to get XP. Same is ture on the Business Models Vostro and Latitude. However, on their main page, if you go to Large Business, and then to the Latitude laptops, there is still the option to get XP preinstalled.

HP home laptops all are Vista only, but if you go to Small Business or Large Business, they have the option to order with XP preinstalled. I have ordered business class machines from both HP and Dell before for home users, and have never been asked if we were really a business, so I have not had to "fib" about anything.

At first glance, I do not see a way to order XP at Gateway.

Just suck it up guys. Windows 3.0, 3.1 and 3.11 are dead. 95 is dead. NT is dead. 98 and ME are Dead. 2000 is dead (much to many people's dismay). And now, XP is dead.

BTW, as long as we are trying to get computers with XP preinstalled, perhaps you can also tell me how I can buy an analog TV after February of next year. Let me know where I can find LPs and 8tracks and LaserDiscs, and where I can buy an HD-DVD player.

I mean, sorry to be a butt, but you guys know that the June 30th deadline was coming. If you are a business, you can still get XP through your Microsoft Licensing Agreements.

That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

They are so friendly and customer-focused that you have to jump through hoops to get the product that you want. Why do we put up with this shit when we wouldn't accept this from almost any other industry?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[iminplaya]

We accept this from almost every industry. Automobiles, appliances, internet services, telephone service, cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that), and most of all your government. Everybody complains like hell, but they keep on buying the BS.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[wild_quinine]

They are so friendly and customer-focused that you have to jump through hoops to get the product that you want. Why do we put up with this shit when we wouldn't accept this from almost any other industry?

An industry related example: Good luck buying a power PC Apple Mac direct from the manufacturer. That's right - even if you ask really nicely, and even if they were still making them less than two years ago. It's an old product, and you can't get it any more.

A car analogy: Good luck buying a Jaguar XJ220 direct from Jag. It's an older model. They don't make them any more.

OK, so with software it's a bit different - 'making' them is as simple as copying the data, insofaras manufacture goes. But no company can make something and offer no help or support, period. That's not legal. If they want to lay old tech to rest, then that's their decision.

Yes, Vista is inferior to XP in many ways. Lots of new products are inferior to old products in many ways. If a company is done with a product, consumers do not have a right to force them to keep supplying it.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[danbert8]

The problem with your car analogy is that you can still buy a Jag XJ220 used. It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers. Now if Microsoft were to allow that, it might not be such a big deal.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[iminplaya]

Well, when I'm at a bar, the bartender usually keeps on bringing me more beer when he sees my glass is almost empty until I say "when". I call it "opt out". The system works.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Hatta]

It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.

The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of. Do you know something I don't?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Collective 0-0009]

You are completely wrong. You can resell retail versions of XP with no problem. Possibly OEM as well. You just can't resell the copy that came with your Dell, as it is marked "not for resell".

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Blue Stone]

The fact that an OEM XP CD is marked 'not for resale' doesn't mean anything - as should have been proved by a recent court decision regarding music promo CDs, where the judge ruled that they were a gift and no longer the property of the record companies - who consequently had NO SAY over what was done with them (short of copyright laws and duplication).

If that's the case for gifts, where you've paid money for something, the case for right of resale would be even stronger.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[MarcoG42]

Same here, regarding switching to Vista. I work for the City of NY, and not one agency in the city is making the switch. I still think it's crap that MS would rather sell the giant pile of shit that is Vista to their end users. Now people are going to get Vista, see what a giant turd it is and look for an alterna-- You know what...SELL MORE VISTA! YAY VISTA! VIVA VISTA!

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Toby_Tyke]

it is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP

Seriously?

That might be the case in the US of A ( not sure, as my lack of knowledge regarding US law is surpassed only by my lack of interest in US law), but over here in good old blighty we certainly can resell copies. CEX, a large high street retailer of second hand computer goods, will happily flog you a used copy of XP pro or home. Link

Try not to wince too much at the prices.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[pixelpusher220]

Yeah but do you want 4 grocery sales guys sitting in your kitchen watching you drink milk? ;-)

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[jellomizer]

There is nothing stopping you from starting a competing company that doesn't have those problems. Or you just not purchase those products. Hey you can even setup a movement to get others to boycott such products and you do it well enough it may work. Yes none of those solutions are easy but where does it say Life should be easy, in any counties laws. The fact that taking the BS is so much easier then doing something about it thus it continues.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[thpr]

Ironically, you should read the "Computer Software" section of the first sale article. The last paragraph in that section refers to a case where it was not upheld. Then read page 13, lines 12-21 of MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. et al for a reference to three cases, that show examples of the issue of licensed vs. sold software and what rights you may not have under copyright law with licensed software.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Spy der Mann]

However, recently the first sale right was upheld by the court in the Softman v. Adobe case - Softman was the guy who wanted to sell an Adobe Product via e-bay. Technically, they said, if the license is "forever" it can be considered a product being sold.

From http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/5628 :

"The Court understands fully why licensing has many advantages for software publishers. However, this preference does not alter the Court's analysis that the substance of the transaction at issue here is a sale and not a license," Judge Pregerson writes. If you put your money down and walked away with a CD, you bought that copy, EULA or no EULA.

More info in the wikipedia entry.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Dracos]

A car analogy: Good luck buying a Jaguar XJ220 direct from Jag. It's an older model. They don't make them any more.

Last I heard (a few years ago now), Jaguar had at least 24 XJ220's in a warehouse, the result of canceled pre-orders based on the prototype car having a V12 engine and all wheel drive. The production version had a turbo V6, rear wheel drive, and a 30% price increase.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Lumpy]

cripes,. you can buy OEM copies of XP all over the place.

go to newegg.com and buy a oem copy and a mouse.

All done. Why did this even get to slashdot?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[dotancohen]

We accept this from almost every industry. Automobiles, appliances, internet services, telephone service, cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that), and most of all your government. Everybody complains like hell, but they keep on buying the BS.

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Roberticus]

When I worked QA in a dairy, we put cow's milk in the cartons. What we did not do was arbitrarily switch to putting soy milk in the cartons, and then require customers to call the grocery store and beg to get cow's milk (which would only be allowed if you were a restaurant).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[xaxa]

cell phone services(pay to receive calls? You all are nuts to swallow that)

Not that I totally agree with the practice, but in defence of the wireless providers, you are using airtime and their network whether the call is incoming or outgoing.

That's not a good defence.

A better defence is "it costs more to provide the cellphone service, so calls must cost more. The people making calls, with the US numbering system, don't know if they're calling a landline or a cellphone, so it's not fair to charge them. Thus, the recipient of the call pays the extra."

In the UK, all mobile numbers begin with 07, and all normal landline numbers begin with 01, 02 or 03, so it's fair to customers to charge more for calls to mobiles. But, this means you can't move a number from a landline to a mobile (you can forward the calls, but then you're paying for that).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[rishistar]

Drinking milk is fine. Montoring toilet paper usage is another matter completely.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[compro01]

It's still there, but that doesn't stop anyone from suing you for bogus reasons and proceeding to drag out the suit for years until you run out of money to pay your defense lawyer(s).

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[bigstrat2003]

It's true, and it's fucking retarded. We pay to send and receive cell phone calls/text messages. I don't understand how this sits with people as being ok, either, and I'm an American.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[CowTipperGore]

It is illegal to resell old copies of Windows XP for use in new computers.

The right of first sale has been consistently upheld by every court decision I am aware of. Do you know something I don't?

The GP was incorrect in that it generally is not illegal to resell XP or other software. However, that is a bit misleading because most Windows licenses cannot be reused due to the terms of OEM OS licenses. The license is valid only on the computer with which it was sold so you're limited to selling only the boxed retail copies of Windows. Additionally, when the marketplace ignores the right of first sale (as eBay does), it make it difficult to sell the product even if you have the legal right to do so.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?

Yes, it's true, and it's commonly accepted. The reason is a bit long.

Historically, cell phone service cost quite a bit more to provide than landline service, so someone has to pay more when a cell phone is part of a call.

Most of the world has taken the view that the caller should pay more when calling a cell phone, and that the cell phone recipient shouldn't pay for the call.

In the USA, people have long been used to making unlimited local calls on landlines.

Unlike many countries, cell phones in the USA (and Canada) do not have a reserved numbering scheme where the phone number clearly identifies that this number is a cell phone.

It was tried to have a reserved numbering scheme to identify cell phones and charge the caller more for calling a cell phone. The market overwhelmingly rejected it. People said, "You want me to pay more to call you on your cell phone? Get a real phone you piece of [censored] yuppie!" and refused to call. For market acceptance, the caller could not be charged extra to call a cell phone.

So, the only other person to charge for the call was the cell phone owner.

So, US cellphone ownwers pay to make & receive calls. On the other hand, it doesn't cost more to call a cellphone instead of a landline, and it usually costs less to make an outgoing call from a cell phone.

Frankly, many of you non-USians are getting screwed on calls. I once called my friend on her mobile in Sydney, Australia. My call had to cross the entire Pacific ocean, but I still paid less to talk to her than her mother (located in Sydney, Australia) does to call her on her mobile. Why? Competition and not having to deal with the local oligopoly.

Further, cellphone calls are getting very cheap in the US. Many carriers have unlimited plans for $100 USD or less - unlimited incoming & outgoing local calls, domestic long distance, data, and SMS.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Solandri]

Americans PAY to receive cellphone calls? Can someone confirm that? Do people find this ridiculous, or is this commonly accepted?

The vast majority of American phone plans are a flat rate for a fixed number of minutes, not a per-minute charge. For home phone service, it's usually a flat rate for an unlimited number of minutes (some plans even give unlimited long distance). Apparently, given a choice, people prefer paying the same amount every month instead of a variable amount depending on the calls they make and take. So a "caller pays" system doesn't work since someone with unlimited home service could call 24/7 to someone with a cell phone.

It's one of those "fairness vs. simplicity" things, like no-fault insurance. In this case, simplicity won out. On the flip side, Americans don't need to keep track of which numbers are home or mobile (because calling them costs the same), and we're free to port our home phone number to our cell phone or vice versa when changing service.

Another contributing factor is probably due to cell phones being invented in the U.S. Way back when they were new and phone calls cost like $5/min, there was a "rich bastard" stigma associated with them. The feeling was that if some rich bastard wanted to flaunt his wealth by walking around talking on a cell phone, he damn well better be the one paying for those minutes, not the person who might call him.

Re:That's Microsoft for you

[Solandri]

"Another contributing factor is probably due to cell phones being invented in the U.S."

BullShit.

Cell Phones were invented by the swedish company Ericsson as a contract job to provide telephony services for SaudiArabia.

After that, a modified version called NMT450 was introduced commercially in scandinavia and balticum. More of Europe followed afterwards.

Wireless telephones were invented in the U.S in 1908.

The concept of cells and handoffs between cells were also invented in the U.S. by AT&T / Bell Labs in 1947 and 1971 respectively.

The first commercial cell phone network was rolled out in Chicago in 1978 using AMPS (albeit as a trial - full commercial service didn't begin until 1983). Japan was next in 1979. NMT didn't show up until 1981. There appears to have been an earlier cell-based wireless phone system in Finland in 1971, but it didn't have seamless handoffs between cells. I consider handoffs a requirement to qualify as a "cell phone" - if you say handoffs aren't required, then the first mobile phones date to the 1950s.

US and motorola was very late to adopt to cellphones and only started building cellphones when the third generation of technology was used in europe, NMT900.

After this came the digital GSM system that also ran initially on the 900 band. This is when the US started deploying cellphones,

Actually, Motorola made the world's first hand-holdable cell phone in 1973, based on what eventually became AMPS. And as I explained above the U.S. was at the forefront of analog cell phone development. Where the U.S. fell behind was during the switch from analog to digital. The analog network was so built-up and entrenched in the U.S. that there was considerable resistance and lack of frequencies to switch to digital. Japan and Europe, with denser population centers serviceable by fewer digital cells, made the switch to digital first.

though they decided to implement some semi-broken-by-design CDMA crap when the rest of the world had already switched to proper digital GSM.

CDMA has some important bandwidth advantages over TDMA (which GSM is based on). With TDMA (time division multiple access), each operating phone gets a timeslice and so eats up a fixed slice of bandwidth regardless of whether it's transmitting voice or silence. With CDMA (code division multiple access), the orthogonality is in the codes, not in timeslices or frequency, so the phone only uses bandwidth if it's transmitting voice. This gave CDMA enough of an advantage that in the U.S. they (Verizon, Sprint) easily beat out the TDMA networks (AT&T, T-Mobile). This is also why CDMA networks in the U.S. and Japan were able to roll out 3G data speeds years before the GSM networks. The CDMA networks could just transmit data the same way they did voice. The GSM/TDMA networks had to design an entirely new transmission system (HSDPA) to get around the bandwidth limitations.

It's enough of an advantage that UMTS (3GPP or 3GSM), the European successor to GSM, is based on wideband CDMA. So eventually all the GSM networks will be using CDMA. If fact, if your GSM phone has HSDPA, you're already using CDMA for data.

Obvious answer?

[neokushan]

An Internet connection.

Re:Obvious answer?

[neokushan]

If you're buying your first computer, are you really going to know the difference between XP and Vista? Are you really going to MISS XP enough to want it that much?

With XP? How about without Windows?

[aztektum]

I have been looking at ordering a new laptop. I have been considering the Lenovo IdeaPad Y510 with the 256MB nVidia graphics card. My plan is to wipe it and use Ubuntu (according to ubuntuforums.org the Y510 is nicely compatible out of the box.) I'd rather not pay the Windows tax.

Anyone know if I talk to Lenovo I can get them to sell me the laptop without Windows?

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[Scotteh]

It'd be great if some laptops were sold with a blank harddrive. If someone wants Windows, chances are they'll take Vista. If someone wants Linux, chances are they won't want the distribution that is preloaded on the laptop. If I wanted to buy a Linux laptop, I'd rather it be blank so that I could set it up the way I want it.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[magarity]

It'd be great if some laptops were sold with a blank harddrive
 
You mean, "Isn't it great that plenty of laptops are sold with blank hard drives." Go to pricewatch.com and check the 'laptops, no OS' section or google for 'laptop barebones'. They'll all be the original brands, Clevo, Compal, Asus, etc, and not the reseller brands, Sony, Dell, HP, etc. But it'll be the same thing and cost less. What you get with the big names is 1: a support phone line, 2: the exact same laptop with a brand name sticker strangers will respect you for being able to afford and, of course 3: Windows.

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[lophophore]

I bought a T81 from Lenovo with SuSe Linux 10 on it; no windows tax. That was direct from Lenovo.com

Re:With XP? How about without Windows?

[dotancohen]

Anyone know if I talk to Lenovo I can get them to sell me the laptop without Windows?

Ask them:
http://www.lenovo.com/contact/us/en/
1-866-96-THINK

If they do, they'll tell you. If they don't, then they need to hear it from us that we want to be able to buy systems without the MS tax. If we don't ask, they will never know that's what we want.

Torrent

[courteaudotbiz]

1. Buy a PC
2. Download Windows XP through your favorite Torrent site
3. Install Windows XP
4. Enjoy...

Re:Torrent

[Scotteh]

And also enjoy not being able to use Windows Update to get the lovely updates that makes Windows semi-safe.

Re:Torrent

[courteaudotbiz]

Will they still sell XP licenses through their WGA program??? This could be a great solution!

Re:Torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

Disclaimer: by reading this you understand and agree that everything that is written in this article is for educational use only, and none of it should be used at any circumstances, and if you choose to use this information for any kind of action you take full responsibility for it and release Anonymous Coward of any responsibility. If you do not agree to whats written here, stop reading now!

First, look on the internet for an ISO with the SHA1 66ac289ae27724c5ae17139227cbe78c01eefe40. Google or any torrent portal should turn up enough seeds. Make sure you verify the downloaded ISO, which is the MSDN XP3 Volume License ISO, as can be checked here (look for Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 3 - VL (x86) - CD (English) and click on Show details).

The VL versions of XP do not require activation, but do require a valid VL key entered during installation (which are different from retail and OEM keys from the stickers on your desktop/laptop). There are keygens out there that generate them (beware of trojans though!), but most keys will fail WGA checks, as they were not issued by Microsoft. What you need is a VL key from a very large institution such as big universities or corporations (which have low risk of getting blacklisted by Microsoft). If you (or someone you know) can run programs on one of these corporate/institutional systems, you can use this keyfinder to retrieve the VL key. After installing the VL disk with such a key, you'll have no problems with any WGA checks until Microsoft decides to block that key.

Re:Torrent

[jcgf]

I downloaded a copy of XP to run under parallels from a torrent. It was a custom ISO that did not require activation or entering a serial number. It also gets the updates perfectly every time without complaint.

I had more trouble setting up virtual machines in VMWare at work with legit copies than I did with the pirated copy.

Or perhaps

[Anonymous Coward]

be prepared to walk.

That's how I was able to order a business machine from Dell. I told the sales rep that it was either that or HP as the consumer end didn't have what I want.

The easy way...

[billy901]

If you find someone who has an old XP machine, and you have an old OEM XP disk, just buy the machine and install Windows and use the activation code on the machine. I work at a place that fixes computer up doing this every day.

Re:The easy way...

[Anonymous Coward]

How much easier could it get?!

1) Obtain ancient boxen (at some cost)

2)Obtain XP >=SP2 (somehow...)

3) Install yourself

4) ?????

5) NO PROFIT!!!!! FAIL!!!!

Re:The easy way...

[maird]

That's what I understand to be the case. I just got a PC at work and the PO and Invoice said "downgrade to XP" but it only came with a Vista key. What really bites is that Microsoft gets to pretend it sold one more Vista license. It's a neat trick on their part I suppose. More than 100 Million copies of Vista sold according to a January 2008 announcement. I wonder how may were actually XP installed with a Vista key. The number of Vista copies Microsoft claims to have sold is a worthless lie.

Re:The easy way...

[tlhIngan]

To be clear, are you saying that a Vista product key will work during an XP installation?

NO.

The steps I've seen documented are:

1) Get an XP CD and key. The CD has to match the key (e.g., OEM CD with OEM key, retail CD with retail key). Just to answer a FAQ: Yes, ANY. Even if it's an already activated copy of XP, or with OEM versions, bound to another machine and activated. Heck, it can be activated through Microsoft, too. You just need a legic CD and key, regardless of whether or not it's been activated, requires activation, what have you. (BTW, I think you need XP Pro - you can't downgrade to XP Home... but I could be wrong (Vista Home->XP Home? I know Vista Buziness+ -> XP Pro).
2) Use that CD and key to install XP.
3) When you activate, choose the phone option, and call Microsoft. Tell them you're downgrading your Vista to XP, and give them your Vista key, the code that the phone-activation shows (and possibly the key you're using). They'll then give you a code to enter in to activate it.

You cannot do an internet activation (since Microsoft needs to know you're exercising your downgrade rights).

Re:The easy way...

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

I think you need XP Pro - you can't downgrade to XP Home... but I could be wrong (Vista Home->XP Home? I know Vista Buziness+ -> XP Pro).
According to Microsoft the only copies that let you downgrade are Vista Business and Vista Ultimate, there is no downgrade rights w/ Vista Home.

Article is slashdotted. Here is a mirror:

[Anonymous Coward]

What does it take to get a PC with XP?
Our reporter tried to buy a computer with Windows XP preinstalled on it from the United States' nine biggest PC makers. His findings: You can get one, but be prepared to fib.
Christopher Null (PC World (US online)) 17/07/2008 15:58:43

I won't waste time rehashing the argument over whether Windows Vista is any good. The fact remains that lots of people prefer Windows XP, and they'll go to great lengths to get it.

The problem: Windows XP "officially" went off the market on June 30, 2008, and computer vendors aren't supposed to sell new machines configured with any version of Windows except Vista.

Fortunately for XP enthusiasts and Vista vetoers, the PC marketplace still has a loophole or two in it. In response to pressure from customers, Microsoft has made some concessions for people who really want XP, offering a lifeline for users willing and able to wade through the company's convoluted downgrading program. The upshot is that virtually every copy of Vista Business or Vista Ultimate Edition is sold with a license for XP, which a computer manufacturer can exercise to install XP Professional on any Vista Business or Vista Ultimate PC.

But just because a manufacturer can install XP doesn't mean that it will. And just because its official policy permits it to sell XP machines doesn't mean that its employees understand that policy.

To find out how difficult it is to get a new XP machine these days, I asked the nine largest PC vendors in the United States--Dell, HP, Gateway, Toshiba, Acer, Fujitsu, Lenovo, Sony, and Asus--about the specifics of their downgrade policies. Then, to see how closely the official story synced up with the reality in the marketplace, I called sales representatives for each company and asked them whether I could purchase a new laptop equipped with XP from them.

The verdict? Downgrade policies are all over the map, and more than a few rank-and-file sales reps have a sketchy understanding of those policies. Some notebook PC sellers make getting XP preinstalled on a new laptop a snap; others don't offer it under any circumstance. As a rule of thumb, your odds of finding a machine with XP and a sales rep who knows how to configure a machine with that OS are far greater if you call the business sales line instead of the consumer sales line. (Be prepared to fib and say you're planning to buy 25 computers during the next 12 months.) Getting XP via online purchase can be tricky, too.

Here's how each manufacturer's formal policy--and informal reality--shakes out.

Dell

The Official Word: Dell has one of the most extensive and detailed policies on Windows XP of the nine vendors I investigated, but getting XP preinstalled on a machine may cost you extra. The company outlines the situation in this blog posting, where the company explains that though the XP downgrade program targets corporate customers, it's an option for general consumers, too. Though the rules are complicated, they are in line with those of most other sellers. To be eligible for an XP downgrade, you must be purchasing a Latitude laptop, an OptiPlex desktop, a Precision workstation, a Vostro laptop or desktop, an XPS 630 desktop, or an M1730 laptop. The machine must be specced to come with Vista Business or Vista Ultimate, and you can downgrade only to XP Professional. You must pay a $20 to $50 fee for the downgrade if you're buying a Vostro or XPS; corporate clients receive the downgrade at no charge. The program is slated to run until January 31, 2009, but Dell says that even after that it will continue to make some enterprise-level exceptions.

The Real Deal: Alas, not all Dell reps seemed to be up to speed on the company's XP strategy. First I tried to purchase an Inspiron running XP for "home use" (that's not covered in Dell's policy, but I decided to try my luck anyway). The harried sales rep I spoke to told me, "We don't have any computers running XP any more." After some pushing, he acknowledged that "I think business has them" but ins

Vendor Lock In

[Van Cutter Romney]

Talk about vendor lock in. I just hope Linux starts to make more headway into corporate desktops - and I don't just mean for developers. More support we get for Linux more it is going to be used by corporates.

For whatever it is now, Windows wasn't all that great even 15 years ago. Very rudimentary, few supported applications and all that.

It was all the corporate adoption and the developer ecosystem that has brought Windows to what it is now. I'm sure with more widespread usage we can get Linux to be at the same usage level without the security glitches.

Only if the stopped using corny names like Hardy Heron ... (sigh)

Re:special favors

[MyLongNickName]

Hi. We were talking about how to get Windows XP, not your weekend plans.

Thanks.

Try different suppliers

[oldspewey]

TFA appears to be slashdotted, but I would suggest that it's just a matter of trying different (often smaller) suppliers until you find somebody who is willing to oblige. Smaller local shops can put together a system built exactly to your spec, and will happily install Windows XP, all drivers, test the entire rig before delivering it to you, and offer a warranty equivalent to the big boxes.

Does anyone remember

[Rik Sweeney]

when Windows 95 first came out. Microsoft were so confident that users would enjoy it they even included the ability to roll back to Windows 3.1

I wonder why they didn't include this option with Windows Vista...

Re:Does anyone remember

[BUL2294]

Microsoft were so confident that users would enjoy it they even included the ability to roll back to Windows 3.1

Here's something shocking... Windows 3.11 (both Windows and Windows for Workgroups) outsold Windows 95 in both 1995 and 1996 calendar years. The reverse didn't happen until 1997. In fact, so many PCs were sold with Win3.1x after the introduction of Win95, catching software vendors by surprise, that several 32-bit apps initially released as Win95-only got back-ported to Windows 3.1x & Win32s in a subsequent interim release. (Case-in-point: Corel Print House from 1995/1996).

Your useless trivia for the day...

Vista vs XP

[lymond01]

Not that a large discussion needs to be had here as the article likely pertains (OCIDNRTFA) to home ownership, but I've chosen to start using Vista at work as of about 3 weeks ago.

And it's, uh, fine. I have 2 GB of memory installed, Vista boots up to use half of that. Firefox, Thunderbird, Photoshop, server admin tools, web design programs are what I use mostly (and putty). The re-install process of everything got a little old with the administrator prompts (I run as a normal user, something I was reluctant to do in XP), but at the same time, it's nice not to have to choose Run as... all the time.

We use it at home on a laptop as well (the kids' gaming machine is XP) and aside from taking 30 seconds to connect to the wireless after sleeping, it's fine.

I think I just don't have any really high-performance needs, so Vista actually works for me. Whole Disk encryption is easier as well with Vista I hear, though I don't use it.

Re:Vista vs XP

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's, uh, fine.

Uhmmm.....I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say things like that around here.

Re:Vista vs XP

[goldsaturn]

I can connect to the *cough* neighbours AP within 5 seconds from any state.

Even Alaska? That must be some router!

Re:Vista vs XP

[lymond01]

Good question. So far I personally have gained:

1) Actual easier use of admin rights while running under a normal user account and therefore better security (as you're more likely to run as a normal user)
2) The snippet tool (ok, this is just handy, and I'm sure is duplicated in lots of freeware)
3) Better performance monitor
4) 64-bit support (don't mention XP 64...that OS isn't really usable)

There are other functions I haven't delved into yet such as the easier whole disk encryption, single-image installation, etc.

I'm not saying it's worth the jump from XP, but having actually tried it from a user's perspective, it's not as horrible as I'd imagined.

Re:Vista vs XP

[gbjbaanb]

Which is fine, Vista isn't the unusable brain-dead pile of steaming poop some would have you beleve, and it has some benefits over XP. I think you've named them all except for 1 (when you try to delete a load of files, any that are locked will show a prompt with 'skip' option).

Vista however....

hogs memory - you've seen this already.
hogs disk space (check your WinSxS directory, it isn't small. this is more of a big deal in this age of VMs and smaller, power-efficient machines)

Explorer will occasionally start to delete everything when you delete a few files, I think its user error but its not obvious how I end up with Vista trying to delete the containing directory.
File delete still takes ages - Vista will happily wait to tell you how long it'll take to delete a file before actually deleting the f*cker.

Driver support can be ... limited, especially for older hardware and you're SOL if you don't want to buy a new device.

Explorer cannot keep the display configuration per folder that I set it - not if I edit a parent folder (with the 'inherit' checkbox cleared, obviously).

The indexer service never seems to stop, and if you do stop it, you'll find you don't get a complete start menu list after time.

Also, for some reason, when I close any app that has used a lot of RAM, Vista starts a mega disk thrashing session. This lasts for minutes, though the system is usable, I wouldn't like to be running my box on a SSD!

Oh, but the biggest issue is things that have just broken, but you don't realise until you come to use them. eg, I had a problem with the Task Scheduler - it couldn't create new tasks. I forget the exact problem (or the solution) but it was pretty wierd with a mis-install of some system component. Also, I had problems installing SQL Server - I got a 'failed to compile MOF files xyz'. Turns out, this is because the WMI is corrupted! I'd only just installed Vista and it was broken in subtle ways. I think its just too complex, and I reckon you will too once you really get going with it.

So, after using it for a while I think its ok, but if I had to buy a copy I just wouldn't bother. Incidentally, my work PC runs XP and will do so until I have to change.

So backwards...

[Blice]

You: Hey Microsoft, can I give you money for your product?

Microsoft: No.

You: Please..?

Why purchase XP at all?

[Manip]

Alright this Vista thing has got a little out of hand. Here's a quick recap on events up till now:
1) Microsoft Released Windows Vista
2) Windows Vista failed to live up to people's expectations
3) People said "stick with Windows XP for now"
4) People complained about the normal driver and application compatibility issues
5) Somewhere along the line "stick with Windows XP for now" got turned into "Windows Vista sucks - stick with XP indefinitely."

So now we have people paying the same amount of money either way and going out of their way to pickup Windows XP. I could appreciate that position a year when issues still existed but those have all but gone today.

Vista is about as big of a leap as going from virgin XP to XP SP2. Meaning a few nice features but not really worth money. It has very few bugs and at least as many as XP currently does.

Windows ME was terrible. But let's be clear - Vista isn't ME. Because Windows ME was genuinely an unstable buggy monster as opposed to Vista which is just a very minor upgrade with a huge price tag.

Yes it eats more memory. SuperFetch converts all of your available free memory into better program loading times. These pages are marked so that they can be disposed of very quickly but when viewing a memory map it appears as if memory usage has skyrocketed.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[rsantmann]

I am an experienced software developer, and I have been installing and configuring computers for years (including DOS/Windows 3.11). While your experience may have been fine, rest assured that there are reasons why so many people hated Vista. "I have had nothing but problems with my Upgrade from Windows XP Pro to Windows Vista Business. The OS is plagued with driver and application issues, Windows Explorer takes ages for the most simple of tasks, the indexing service sucks up the hard disk even when the computer is in use, the user account control is endlessly nagging you, it is less stable than Windows XP (I get at least one blue screen of death every few days), the performance is absolutely abysmal for even the most mundane tasks, Windows doesn't turn on the screen half the time when resuming from standby, file sync doesn't work properly, indexing service wouldn't reinstall after uninstalling, none of my VPNs work properly, file search takes forever (with or without the indexing service turned on), when disabling and re-enabling my network card half the time the Disable button doesn't turn into a Enable button which requires me to reboot, the system restore wants to save the registry every time I boot (making it take forever), and an endless list of other annoying nuggets of lameness. I think the editor reviews that people wrote were after using it for a day or two. Sure, alot of the new features are cool, except none of them work correctly. Use it for a couple weeks and it will have you cursing non-stop."

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't say the problems have all gone away. I had my first experience with a brand new Vista Home Premium laptop recently. My "issues":
- On the first boot, I expect it to have to do some housekeeping and setup stuff. That's fine. But part of this process included it sitting there completely frozen (mouse cursor wouldn't move) for 10 min with no progress bar or any indication that it was doing anything other than the fact that the harddrive was going.
- I installed Vista SP1 and all available security and driver updates first.
- I have a fairly popular printer: the HP LaserJet 1200. I installed the Windows drivers for it, but they limited me to 600dpi. This is a 1200dpi printer, and under Windows XP I can print at 1200dpi using HP's drivers. So, I downloaded the Vista drivers for this printer from HP's website and tried to install them. The result? During the installation process, something crashed and brought down the entire Vista printing subsystem. (I had to go into services and restart the print spooler.) So, I'm stuck printing to a 1200dpi printer at 600dpi.
- This was my sister's laptop, and she has some favourite games she wanted installed on them. Some of them were not designed for Vista. I tried installing one of them under a limited user account, and the installer crashed. Well, fine, maybe I won't get all these old games working under Vista. But the installer stayed crashed, and when I tried to kill the process in task manager, the entire system froze and I had to hard power off.

Now, you could say that some of those problems are caused by "3rd-party software". But step back and look at the big picture. This is not a good first impression for a new operating system to make, and all of the software I tried to use did work flawlessly under Windows XP. These are, in fact, exactly the problems people were complaining about a year ago, and it looks to me very much like they have not gone away today, even after SP1.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[Totenglocke]

I have a laptop I bought recently that came with Vista -- and Vista's perfectly fine for simple use (browsing, typing, programming, etc), but it's HORRIBLE for gaming. Though, I don't think that's quite so much Vista's fault as it is DirectX 10's fault (but DirectX 10 is part of Vista). I ended up having to scour the internet to find laptops from other manufacturer's / older models using similar hardware to mine so that I could get some XP drivers and dual boot. The difference in playing games (not even counting the games that just don't run under Vista period) is unbelievable. So yes, I will definitely say that Vista sucks -- for gaming. For normal use, it's not too bad (though things like UAC are extremely annoying unless you turn them off).

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[arkhan_jg]

Vista SP1 runs slower than XP SP3 on the same hardware for network operations (copy, unrar etc). It's noticeably 'laggier' for general UI interfaces. There were some benches around a while back showing the disparity.

I've noticed it on a number of systems, I have 4 pcs currently with dual or triple boot (vista, xp, ubuntu) - all with 2-4GB of RAM, dual or quad core 2's etc, so it's not hardware lacking.

Mind you, if your hardware is anything less than ninja, vista will CRAWL.

I sysadmin a 1200 user network. Virtually every staff member that's had a vista laptop issued over the last year has come in and asked us to switch it back to XP. It's noticeably slower for what they do with it, and the amount of drivers for printers, cameras and other user devices is still severely lacking. Whole swathes of user devices are not supported by the vendors for vista, and never will be. "Buy our new version instead". Sucks if you wanted to carry on using that wifi card, or printer, or camera, or scanner, or webcam etc etc you already had that worked fine on XP.

Worse, there's plenty of applications that don't run, and never will. Windows 98 or 2000 era apps that users love and can't live without are ample in the real world, and the worst case, but there's plenty of XP-era apps that don't run either.

Vista can't do many things that XP can, and is sluggish in many operations for many users. I use it where I must, but otherwise it is a failure.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[pherthyl]

>> Yes it eats more memory. SuperFetch converts all of your available free memory into better program loading times. These pages are marked so that they can be disposed of very quickly but when viewing a memory map it appears as if memory usage has skyrocketed.

I know the theory, but it doesn't work in practice (at least not on my machine). When the system uses so much ram that you're hitting swap, you lose. Whether that's superfetch or something else, I really don't care. I just know that XP uses about 200, while Vista uses about 500-600 on boot, and the Vista install is brand new. And when I open programs that RAM is not freed like the theory says. The system just ends up swapping like crazy, which slows everything down to unbearable speeds and eats my laptop battery.

Sure I only have 1GB of RAM. But that's plenty for XP and plenty for Linux, so I'm not inclined to spend money on hardware to run an OS with zero advantages.

Re:Why purchase XP at all?

[King_TJ]

Really? All the Vista issues from a year ago are gone now?

Please tell me, then, how to get our HP Designjet 500 42" plotter working in Vista? Because apparently, HP has no drivers for anything newer than Windows XP for it (or many other older, but expensive large format plotters of theirs).

That alone is a great reason for our company to stick with XP Pro.

"Christopher Null"? Really?

[sootman]

Must be hell. Does he have a brother named Bobby Tables?

XP in VMWare on 64-bit Vista

[c0d3r]

Vista failed to run most of my legacy software, especially VS.NET on my 64-bit vista machine. I had to install VMWare Workstation (had to pay for this because 64-bit vista requires signed drivers) and configured it to use half of my RAM and to use one CPU core. I picked up XP for system builders pretty cheap and it installed flawlessly. It's pretty stable, and being 64-bit, you can exceed 4 GB of ram, and I find my self having Vista always running without shutting down, and just sleeping or hibernating and having an instant on experience all the time. With more RAM and cores, I can concurrently run LINUX as well. Otherwise, the only place I could find a laptop with XP in LA was across the street from Vista Ford on Ventura Blvd. What's interesting, is if you make a U turn up the hill by there, medina road is at the top of the hill. (Bill Gates lives in Medina, WA).

Joe Consumer wants XP...

[argent]

To anyone who actually cares about XP vs Vista (Joe Consumer is probably just going to take Vista or whatever, and doesn't care), don't you already have tons of copies of XP already around?

1. Joe Consumer wants XP. I recently directed a "Joe Consumer" friend of mine through the steps needed to get a laptop with XP on it, because that's what he wanted.

2. I don't have "tons of copies" of XP around. Just Windows 2000. I've already been through this with XP, and still haven't seen a compelling reason to upgrade other than "Microsoft wants to force me to". Unfortunately it looks like my next Wintendo is going to be a choice between XP and Vista, thanks to drivers that refuse to install on Windows 2000.

3. Yes, I absolutely have no problem rewarding Microsoft by paying four times as much for retail XP Pro because they think DRM is a really nifty idea (that's sarcasm, by the way, if you're American or otherwise obsessively literal minded).

Pot Kettle

[VirginMary]

> Your not really well with grammar, much less anything.

"Your"??? What was that about grammar again?

Activation?

[Anonymous Coward]

And what if MS decide not to activate that XP license?

Re:That's a *monopoly* for you

[dwandy]

Interesting pick, the XJ220, 'cause the way I read it, the XJ220 is Jaguar's Vista except that Jaguar isn't a monopoly that could force everyone to buy this over-priced turd.

So we see in this example the difference - when you're a monopoly, you sell crap and people have no choice. Jaguar on the other hand had trouble unloading their stock, and I'm sure people with half-a-million bucks to blow on car simply went and got Porche's, Ferrari's etc instead...

So to simply state that you can't buy an old model car is missing part of the point. I'm going to suggest that had the car sold well, it could well still be available today. Porsche has been making the 911 for many years and will make it for many more since it sells very well. Ford (for reasons beyond me) tried to replace the Mustang with the Probe and the outcry from the public resulted in the return of the Mustang - now you can't buy the Probe. Coke tried New Coke, today we pretty much have Coke.

There's plenty of examples in industry where successful companies respond to customer demand and sell them what they want, and when the company goes off the path they actually listen to their customers. This is because they have to compete with other companies offering customers an alternative.

Lucky for Microsoft they don't have such baggage to worry about. ...and this goes for most of the other examples I'm reading here like cell-phone and internet service providers. The lack of competition leaves a lot of power in the hands of the company to do what it wants instead of providing what the customer is demanding.

Assurance that */Linux has a driver

[tepples]

Go to pricewatch.com and check the 'laptops, no OS' section or google for 'laptop barebones'. They'll all be the original brands, Clevo, Compal, Asus, etc, and not the reseller brands, Sony, Dell, HP, etc. But it'll be the same thing and cost less. What you get with the big names is 1: a support phone line, 2: the exact same laptop with a brand name sticker strangers will respect you for being able to afford and, of course 3: Windows.

4: Assurance that the operating system that you plan to install contains drivers for the hardware in the laptop. Is there a way to exclude laptops from pricewatch's results that contain a major component (e.g. accelerated video, WLAN, Bluetooth) with no */Linux support?

Re:How is this difficult? VirtualBox...

[davidsyes]

Put them on PCLinuxOS or Mandriva and VirtualBox, with the latest KDE/Compiz or Metisse, and there, voila! Flashy stuff, with more than one instance of windows running, with LAN access...

Now, maybe VirtualBox might mitigate some of their drivers issues, and give you and your IT staff and the company a reason to brag about Linux.

What I like in KDE Control/Kcontrol is turning off the vendor them, changing the login icon image, adding pics to the changing background, and letting the login screen do its thing. Or, turning on and locking the screen saver, showing off kdesktop....

Re:XP is slashdotted. Here is a mirror:

[maestroX]

piratebay. :-)

Tigerdirect

[rossdee]

Tigerdirect still sells PC's with XP, both desktops and laptops. You can even buy a barebones system with XP (not preinstalled)

They have good prices too.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/

Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[LinuxDon]

You can just purchase a PC with vista business or "higher". Then just install Windows XP on it. When prompted for an activation code, just use a code from another PC.
Then you'll find it often won't activate through the internet, so you call Microsoft on the number displayed on the screen. Then you'll get a representative and you'll them him/her you're downgrading from windows vista business to XP.
On rare occasions they'll ask you for the Windows vista business license code. Next, you'll get the code by phone and just activate it.

We use this procedure all the time on all of our new computers.

Re:Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[suckmysav]

Why do you Windows users think that enduring this sort of shitfight just to install your OS of choice is acceptable?

The mind boggles.

Re:Just downgrade from Vista business or "higher"

[rikkards]

Probably because it is easier to do that than get a wireless nic driver to work with a kernel change.