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Microsoft's Open Source Guru Faces Tough Fight
coondoggie writes "Microsoft's Sam Ramji is like a turkey knocking on Thanksgiving's door. Ramji has the unenviable task of stretching his neck out into the open source world as Microsoft's representative. On top of it, his employer has preheated the oven with years of hubris, sleights of hand and broken promises.
Ramji's Sisyphean task was evident last week in Portland at the Open Source Conference (OSCon) and will likely be fuel for chatter at next week's LinuxWorld gathering in San Francisco."
Microsoft is good at winning the game when people are agressive towards them. Which I know its very easy to get hostile towards them. But they are somewhat lost when another group is their host and they are not in control. So we should be welcoming, give them a drink of the kool-aid and treat them like one of the gang. Its going to be hard and we'll have to keep an eye out for deception, but I think we should start playing nicer with them and hope that they do the same. Perhaps Microsoft would see the light and become friendlier to open source and open standards. Unlikely, but so was getting Excel working under Linux through Wine if you asked someone 10 years ago.
In the end, open source is simply a better model for software development and its a lot more impervious to threats than proprietary software is. Businesses just don't get that. In a business, the software focus is on making money. In open source, the software focus is on quality and empowering the end user. In the end, open source and the user will win. Heck, we're already winning, Microsoft is interested in open source (regardless of the reasons).
Don't throw arrows. Be diplomatic.
I'd like to know what it would take for Microsoft to actually back up those claims with proof in a public forum. But that's probably a question for Steve Ballmer, since he's the one who seems to flog the patent FUD.
OTOH, I have contracted at Microsoft (once as a dev doing an intranet site for a testing lab, once being the editor in charge of a couple of sections of the MSW homepage), and it's an interesting culture there. It's not the Death Star with Ballmer walking around, periodically strangling people with his mind just to show who's boss.
In a company that big you can't escape the control freaks and evidence of The Peter Principle, but you also have people there like my manager on the intranet site contract, who was the best manager I've had in the 23 years since I started having managers. For all the greed and arrogance people here like to claim go into Microsoft products, there are a lot of people who are there because they love what they do and Microsoft gives them the opportunity to get paid well for doing it. I met some awesome people at Microsoft, people I really respect.
I switched to Mac to avoid Vista. I use NeoOffice instead of MS Office. But I can say that despite some of the aura of badness Microsoft gives off as a company, there are people there who are truly dedicated to the company being a good citizen, putting out good products, and getting along with others. The people who give Ramji a hard time really haven't given him a chance.
Start a happiness pandemic
"Sucks to be you!"
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
I like it. Sisyphus has a nice... playful ring to it!
Admit it. You post strawman arguments as AC so you get modded Insightful for refuting them, rather than Troll
We are open source, we accept all code but we are also a community. This community must be respected. Corporate entities will run all over us and then want to be friends. Must we lie down and take it or resist and be defiant because we are the movement? I know what I am saying is controversial but I say it with a reason. Bow once and bow a thousand more times. Microsoft is the main enemy, defeat him and we will conquer all. I may be in the few, but I say rise because the time is now and it is time to strike.
I thought the same thing. Sisyphean makes is sound like he just can't win. Of course, that might be accurate.
"Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
why can't we just ignore them? I mean seriously, if there is one thing we (oss guys) can agree on... SURELY this is it. For many years, hate for M$ has been the only thing that the free software community could agree on.
why can't the entire free software crowd just stand up and say "No thanks", we aren't interested in what you have to say.
if you think that M$ will ever help free software in any meaningful way, you obviously haven't been paying attention over the past couple decades.
there is good news in this though. M$ is obviously noticing that every day there are people installing linux who used to use window$. They know that linux on the desktop is closing the gap and many other companies stand to profit from it. After years of pretending OSS didn't exist, or worse yet, attacking it in underhanded ways, they don't have a piece of the action. This whole M$/oss thing, just means they are realizing there is a chance that maybe OSS really IS the next big thing.
My prediction is that a huge company with unlimited resources like google will package up a nice, distro, call it something flashy, advertise the hell out of it, and give it away for free. I am well aware of the options that already exist, but the average person is not. It takes flashy marketing to capture the market.
how can M$ possibly compete with other companies who come in at a price point nearly $0, with a better product, a good ad campaign, AND profit margins of nearly 100%? They can't. Someday the house of cards will fall. They know it, they think, they can adapt by getting involved with OSS. They will fail because we hate them.
Obama is a twitter sock puppet
Yeah. Apache, Firefox, MySQL, Asterisk, PHP, Wikipedia, BIND, Postfix: all COMPLETE FAILURES.
Utter crap that nobody ever uses, right?
Yeah, FOSS is *so* far behind that MS is desperately throwing money around trying to get a foot in the FOSS door. "Dear Know-Nothing", indeed!
Caveat Utilitor
I am not a Linux kind of guy, but if I were, I would want Microsoft to be as open, honest, and helpful as I can get them.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
I think we should fight Microsoft, not Sam Ramji. We should just make it clear that Sam works for a company with a monopoly conviction and a long record of dirty fighting.
Microsoft's joining Apache, to a great extent, as an anti-Linux play. They still can't stand the GPL, it's too fair for them, but they think they can take some of the oxygen from Linux by being more of a platform for Apache-style software. And the Apache license lets them "embrace and enhance".
Don't give up now, folks. Only your vigilance and your willingness to point out when Microsoft plays dirty tricks will keep them from getting away with even more of that.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Poor, poor Ramji. I feel so sorry for him. Getting his head cut off and all. Boo Hoo. TFA is pure Microsoft FUD. Yeah, Microsoft is trying to get along with Open Source. Sure.
Microsoft wants to kill Open Source and don't ever forget that.
Hey Ramji, after all your employer has done to promote Open Source like backing SCO and buying off ISO, why don't you just crawl under a rock someplace and quit wasting our air. Just go cash that big check and live in some kind of peace and harmony with your bought-off ass.
"The ferrets, they're every where I tell you!"
It's not the Death Star with Ballmer walking around, periodically strangling people with his mind just to show who's boss.
That's what Apple is like.
I was there when he was being grilled at the final keynote. Honestly, O'Reily (the OSCON sponsor) had to ask people to *STOP* asking the MS representative tough questions... but he even gave the harder questions a go. Not everyone wass going to be happy with the answers, but... they won't ever be, right? It's coming from the Ebil Micro$oft, afterall.
MS is changing with the times, as any successful corporation really must. There are even some pretty compelling business reasons for this, I'll wager. For instance, MS can (I presume) distribute this "free" software without typical development costs (and I presume it wouldn't hurt them to distribute the source code for these free utilities). They can instead focus their developers on ensuring that FOSS interacts and is integrated well with their products and services. They even receive free bug fixes and are likely to contribute bug fixes themselves.
Evidence of this business practice is emerging even now: MS is a platinum sponsor for Apache, and contributed a MSSQL patch to ADOdb (BSD license, not MS). Of course, MS isn't the only large corporation doing this (Sun, HP, IBM, Google, etc).
Well, at least, that's my theory for the sudden about-face.
What would be so bad about Microsoft running the Government? Think of all the synergies!
: Blue screen of death penalty.
: Zune for Government: finally, a user base!
: Just announced for MS Government 2009: 10% tax breaks for everyone! (Details of software may vary from description, including variance in the tax cut by negative 50%.)
: President Emeritus Gates
: MS Government Home Edition (voting restricted to school board elections)
: All Mac and Linux users are welcome to participate in government. However, MS Government requires Windows Vista (plus 3GB RAM, 700GB HD, 2GB video card, and 36" monitor) of course.
: Click paperclip for assistance. "It looks like you are trying to complain to your Senator. Would you like to be arrested, be disappeared, compose a letter, erase your hard drive?"
: Balmer in charge of troop morale
: MS Government 2009 upgrade for only $349.95! (Additional $799.95 for Pro edition, which allows for basic network connection.) MS Government State Edition and Local Edition easily added on for only $299.95 each! Additional family licenses available at discounts of up to 5% for families with more than 10 children.
: Microsoft Bob Dole. Combining two compelling personalities!
: MS Government Justice Pack 2.0 - Allows for participation in the legal system (as plaintiff or defendant). Release expected soon, but you can buy now for only $949.95!
While filming Army of Darkness Sam Ramji defied conventional filmmaking, keeping costs to a minimum by utilizing a variety of improvised measures. Rather than invest a ton of money into a specialized dollie, for example, Mr. Ramji got a few extras to help carry his camera crew in scenes of the movie. It *totally* figures that he's an open source dude, you know? I didn't know he was working for Micro$oft now, though...
Harold
I thought the same thing. Sisyphean makes is sound like he just can't win. Of course, that might be accurate.
Given that Microsoft has traditionally played the eagle[*] to FOSS' Prometheus, I'd guess that there are more than a few people who don't want Microsoft ever to win.
-----
[*] Microsoft actually thinks it's Zeus in this legend, but that's a whole 'nother story.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
I know you will hate me but, in all seriousness, I had actually hoped Bill Gates would leave Microsoft and go into politics. I have my reasons and I'll keep them short.
A country is about a lot of things and one of the most important things is about keeping the majority of the people happy. Honestly? The vast majority of Windows users are quite happy. We, here, probably wish that they weren't but they are.
There comes a time when a government must do things that go against their normal routine. Bill would likely have done all sorts of unethical things to help return the United States of America to its former glory but it would have served us, the citizens, well.
His ability to make wise choices is not something we can really argue about if we look at reality. We might not *like* his choices but they accomplished what he'd intended which was to make the computer a personal device that anyone could have and make himself and his company filthy rich. He did that quite well.
I wouldn't want him as a more than a single term president. I'm hoping that the people who read this know the difference between Ballmer and Gates. I wouldn't want Ballmer running my local PTA honestly but I really think the business acumen demonstrated by Bill would do a great deal to getting our country to the point where it is stable again.
I can picture it now...
Bill: We're spending WHAT on WHAT???
Aide: Millions per day on the war that people don't like, sir.
Bill: No patch in sight?
Aide: None from the generals on the field sir.
Bill: Well, screw it. Bring the boys home, let 'em rest up, and tell the world to wait for SP1.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
They are coming. Their are quite a few of them, but they are coming. Remember what I said about "Preventing the last year of open source and Linux?" While Linux is strong now, do realize that we got a break.
In Vista, I expected the Harbinger of Linux's Doom. I expected another Windows 2000. I was pleasantly surprised how bad Vista turned out.
We got a break, we got lucky, and Linux will survive to fight another day, but the monsters are still out there. At this point, Linux needs to focus on combating OSX. Apple is as lethal a threat as M$ is.
That's because you are a zealot. Unless you're saying that the cash had been dipped in radioactive goo before it was handed over, there is no reason for an organisation not to take a donation for a good cause just because it came from a company you personally don't like.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
Open source is supposed to be cross platform...
Says who?
There are a lot of open-source projects that are platform specific. Sometimes that's what you need.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I hear what you're saying, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" But I really think we can beat 'em. Have you tried the latest Ubuntu?
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Great analogy. I think MS is going to do EXACTLY what Japan did facing the atomic bomb:
Implode, be incinerated, be eviscerated, bleed to death, slowly fall apart from radiation, and gasp desperately for a few more breaths of air, ultimately surrendering. Have you tried Vista?
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Microsoft is a single entity in one sense, but it is also a community, or a political organisation, if you will, comprised of lots of people with differing agendas and varying levels of "evilness". Adhering to a militant stance as a stated policy and assuming defiance as a fixed position is not just very lazy, it is short sighted, counter-productive and stupid.
Sure, it makes everything easy now. You don't have to think about what your "enemy" is doing, just reject everything as bad because it comes from Redmond - just like how anything that Muslims do is terrorism and anything the Jews did in central Europe in the 1930s was evil and subhuman. It actually doesn't help anyone though.
Microsoft can make public gestures of reconciliation and receive public rejection. This gives the wider community the impression that Microsoft is fair minded and willing to cooperate with others while the FOSS community are is some bigoted group of crackpot zealots. So Microsoft wins the battle for hearts and minds while the FOSS community, through a conscious choice of ignorance, loses. Pressure on Microsoft to share protocols and adhere to genuine open standards is diminished while the world of FOSS remains an obscure backwater.
Yeah, I've come across this approach personally many times, and it's never been successful for the militants in the long term. It tends to be one of those behaviour patterns that intelligent teenagers grow out of. Sometimes it's just the militants who lose, mostly it's everyone.
Of course if everyone was determined to adhere to a militant approach, I suggest marching in the streets wearing brown shirts as a good start to impress the general population and win supporters. Worked for Adolf.
I don't therefore I'm not.
So, he's kinda like the Colin Powell in George Bush's administration?
.... still be very bad drivers.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Yah, but... Sisyphus rocks!
Idha khatabahum lijahiluna qalu salaman
Just look at another M$ news today about some versions of Vista failing to dual-boot: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/07/30/204241
So, what was that noise about Microsoft being more open?
http://revj.sourceforge.net
Look at the guy they hired to run their Linux Lab, Hilfe or something like that is his name. They made him up to be a friend to OSS but then he got put in charge of their anti-linux marketing or the likes.
20+ years of watching these guys tell me it is business as usual for MSFT. Windows is their baby and nothing is going to threaten it. Linux and OSS is too compelling for many of Microsofts customers so Microsoft must get its hands dirty and shove its way into that area enough to figure out how to pull those customers back to Windows.
Their business is Windows and maintaining that products position. Software which runs on Windows and some other platform is a threat. This is how it has always been so why would anyone think they are playing any other game? Twenty years folks, twenty years. Just look at ODF and MS-OOXML for proof of how far they'll go to protect their position.
this new guy should not be given the time of day IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
you mean you've never noticed them joining competing industry committees before? They usually do this for a few reasons and all of them have to do with making sure they know how to fight the product.
They do it to get inside numbers on things like install base and download numbers. This lets them know how much they need to throttle up or down marketing funds to fight the product.
They do this to slow down the progress of the committee for obvious reasons. It's pretty easy to do when you've got billions of bucks and hundreds of developers taking orders from you.
They do it to learn the inner workings of the development process and other business-like mechanisms so they can feed valuable data to their sales force and help promote their product over the committees product.
I doubt they had to become a sponsor to contribute a MS-SQL patch to ADOdb. That was just a bone to throw out to make it look like they have changed from the 20+ years of fighting every cross platform product which threatens a Microsoft product. They lose billions annually doing this but with far more billions in profits from Windows, nobody seems to care.
There is no about-face and surely one, two, three or more press releases and cheap tricks isn't going to change 20 years of history. open source is a threat to their only money maker, Windows and they must stop it. That is the face of Microsoft. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
We should not trust Microsoft, no matter how nice their liaison to the FOSS community, until they drop their claims that Linux distros infringe their patents. Either they need to specify WHICH patents or withdraw the claim entirely.
If we give in to anything less, we're selling out and lending cred to M$, not to mention allowing them to make money off of FOSS through their "licensing" program.
Nitewing '98
Everything works...in theory.
Do these three words sound familiar? embrace extend extinguish
Until there are actions made by Microsoft that benefits open source in general everything Microsoft does in OSS should be taken with a large dose of skeptisism. Its all PR.
As long as their goal is to obliterate any competition, kill partners any time it gives a benefit and screw their customers over they shouldnt be allowed to be in our community. While we play nice they spend their time trying to come up with new ways of controlling or killing the open source movement.
HTTP/1.1 400
The open source world is also ready to fight if necessary.
Stallman is waiting.
Just take a look at this video, in which he practically destroys arguments against microsoft's open-source positions.
microsoft is capitalist,they go where they think the money is.
if you give em hard proof of a more profitable future in OSS,they will run to it faster than a young puppy chasing a rubber ball.
They have broken the law, cheated on business partners, used underhanded tactics in the OS to stifle competition.
That has nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism does not work without the respect and adherence to the rule of law, and needless to say, one is immoral because one chooses to, not because one is a capitalist.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Getting your head cut off doesn't qualify as humane in my book. But that might be because I'm quite attached to my head.
100% classic, real-deal bonafide /. article this- can't resist commenting! :D
MS would need to first (L)GPL at least XP/2000, Vista, VB/C#/.NET and Office to the fullest extent possible before the free software community will even listen to a word that they or any of their infiltrators may have to say. Until then we'll carry on using Linux, xorg, gcc, OOo etc. and tools that protect our freedom to compute as we like.
Simple!
Looks serious. HAVE you tried the latest Ubuntu, or even the second latest?
If Joe Sixpack knew his computer could be fast, dead reliable and simple to use while still doing everything his Windows box can do (this is Joe Sixpack and not Joe Gamer), all for the cost of:
- One blank CD
- Learning to click on the flaming fox instead of the blue E
- Learning to clock on the purple bird instead of the little green man
- Learning to click on the road cone instead of the colorful Play button
- Learning the names of the apps in the OpenOffice suite
he'd drop Windows like a hot potato and never look back. My whiny Paris Hilton wannabe sister bitched and moaned at first when I switched her to Ubuntu (after she stole one of my partly-patched XP gaming laptops and turned it into a spyware and virus-ridden BSODing mess within 36 hours) but after a while she learned how it works and now she doesn't complain, and the laptop hasn't hiccuped once.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
You're missing something. With LGPL, Microsoft's additions don't have to be under LGPL. They can be under a proprietary license. They don't have to come with source. And when you convert the LGPL code to GPL, you can't convert the proprietary part. That's how LGPL differs from GPL.
Bruce Perens.
You're not looking. Start with the web server and browser. The first ones were Open Source. If you want something more recent, look at Ruby on Rails. Much faster than Java as far as time-to-market is concerned. Look at Linux. Runs on an incredible number of architectures, from watches to supercomputers. Nobody knew you could do that before. Look at the Open Source development paradigm itself. Did anyone know you could build software with a distributed team of people who never met, and the result would be fit for mission-critical work so well that it would fly in space? I could go on.
The problem with employees is that their direction is set in advance. The people who do not have those constraints are free to innovate.
Bruce Perens.
Looking at Microsoft's current situation...
(1) FUD on open source has failed. (Get the Facts...What happened to the bloke who came up with that, didn't he get fired?)
(2) OOXML is in limbo. (Fast tracking process was inconsistent like no tomorrow...Stack the ballot!)
(3) Live Search solution is a flop. (Google is still dominant!)
(4) Xbox 360 has reliability issues. (RROD...What was initially an attempt to save a few million is now costing them a Billion!)
(5) Vista is suffering from poor adoption. (The reality is becoming more obvious when you see that they need to rejuvenate Vista's PR image with deception).
So what's a way to kill Linux? (while they're at it)
Simple, take away its applications! Make them work better with Windows!
LAMP => WAMP.
Do anything and everything you can to win the community over! Play nice, wear T-shirts, throw money at them, donate some code (to Windows benefit!), etc.
Notice how in that movie, "Pirates of Silicon Valley", the character playing Bill Gates wore a T-shirt offered by Apple. (Apple basically embraced them into their community)...Guess what happened? Gates screwed them over!
Point being?
Microsoft can be seen in two views: Character and Personality.
The Character is what everyone knows it has done. It will plunder, stab you in the back, etc to get its way. This is how they've always worked. Manipulate the situation to THEIR benefit. Get what you need NOW! Don't worry about the law, ethics, moral, etc...Leave that for later. (Hello anti-trust cases!)
Personality is its PR side. All that marketing spin, that olive branching to open source, playing nice...Nothing but lip service. Its a facade.
Seriously, wouldn't you be suspicious of the neighborhood bully suddenly playing nice?
Deep down, Sam Ramji is just another expendable employee of Microsoft playing "Liason" with open source. You can feel sympathy for him, but you don't have to feel sympathy for Microsoft. Then again, why would you feel sympathy for Sam? He joined MS on his own accord. His choice.
So the question really is (from a FOSS view): We've done well without Microsoft so far, why do we need them now?
As joked many years ago: Microsoft isn't the solution. Microsoft is the question...And the answer is: NO!
This is becoming even more true in the 21st Century.
Says the person posting on the Internet.
how to invest, a novice's guide
I had this problem recently.
Here is an easier fix for joe sixpack:
Go to System -> Preferences -> Encryption and Keyrings
Select login keyring -> Change unlock password
Set a blank password for that keyring
Its not the most secure solution, but is better than have your password in a script.