Debian's Testing Branch Nears Completion

DeviceGuru writes "With Debian Lenny (aka 'testing') poised to displace Etch as the popular Linux distribution's 'stable' branch possibly as soon as next month, blogger Rick Lehrbaum loaded the latest preview (beta 2) of Lenny's KDE CD image onto an available Thinkpad, and took it for a spin. How's it coming along? After detailing a handful of issues — and offering solutions for each (except Bluetooth support) — he concludes: 'Other than the need for a few hacks and fixes, my main complaint with it is its inclusion of way too many of KDE's rich set of applications, such as games, tools, etc.' From the looks of it, looks like Lenny might be the new 'Debian stable' soon!"

Comments

Debian

[Anonymous Coward]

Can suck my dick.

Re:Debian

[rootooftheworld]

I doubt it, Ian Murdok really likes to keep his wife to him self, but I can screw you in the ass with a red hot metal rod, if you like. Or even if you don't like. I know, I know, don't feed the trols, but I'd go hungry then ;)

Actually, no.

[PC and Sony Fanboy]

Like ubuntu, it is impossible for it to provide fellatio. As I understand it, you generally have to pay for that sort of service, and linux is (mostly) free.

Re:Actually, no.

[n1000]

Debian user here. What's fellatio?

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask your girlfriend. Ahhh, nevermind.

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

What's fellatio?

It's a type of spork.

Re:Actually, no.

[Compuser]

You need to get a (better) girlfriend.

Re:Actually, no.

[dotgain]

Cue the 'apt-get ...' responses

Re:Actually, no.

[rcw-home]

It's another text editor.

Re:Actually, no.

[Hal_Porter]

It's called GNU/Fellatio in Debian. Fascist.

Re:Actually, no.

[Divlje Jagode]

I'm using vi, you insensitive clod sucker!

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no.. so now the choice is vi, emacs or fellatio? ..actually, that is consistent with my experience.

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, but does it come with emacs?

Re:Actually, no.

[unfunnyguy]

It's a hacking motivational exercise, as seen in the documentary Swordfish. It is believed that like the Ballmer Peak, it can become detrimental to work when used in large doses. As geeks supposedly have no girlfriends, it has been hard to confirm this.

Ref: Hackers All they did was make out, and his fishy lips all over my Angelina was the worst turn on ever. Saying that, I could see full blown stickiness being represented in those realistic hacking sequences. Scary.

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried Gnu/Fellatio once. She was okay, but I'm no longer allowed at the zoo.

Re:Actually, no.

[Nimey]

I think you win this thread.

Re:Actually, no.

[Nimey]

As a female friend of mine observed after I complained that women suck, "the good ones do!".

Re:Actually, no.

[synthespian]

apt-get install fellatio

Re:Actually, no.

[jaiger]

$ sudo apt-get install girlfriend
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
E: Couldn't find package girlfriend

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

ITYM
$ apt-get install apt-get-responses

Re:Actually, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you can't really edit in it. It works like tail but in the opposite way. The binary is called head.

Re:Actually, no.

[rootooftheworld]

%su

Password:

#apt-get install blueberry_pie

*ducks*

Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

Like KDE games, I don't want them. If I try to remove them, then this:

# apt-get remove kdegames
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
knetwalk kpat ksokoban kolf blinken krdc krec libdb4.6++ krfb kscd kppp kshisen kmoon kmahjongg ksig
ksim libkscan1 kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style kregexpeditor kcoloredit
artsbuilder kdessh kanagram ktip kdeprint kmrml katomic ksvg kscreensaver kruler ktux klettres
kgoldrunner kbackgammon kpoker libkiten1 ksnapshot kpackage kooka kenolaba kblackbox kdebase
atlantikdesigner klatin kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins kstars ksame konqueror-nsplugins kbruch kpager
libkdegames1 kde-core kcalc keduca klipper kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kweather
kmplot kalzium ksirc ksysguard klickety kpovmodeler ksayit kmouth noatun-plugins kworldclock mpeglib
kdewebdev kmenuedit kicker-applets amor kdict ktouch khexedit ksplash kdeaccessibility kedit kbounce
kvoctrain kdetoys kdenetwork-kfile-plugins kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate kwordquiz kcron kview ktron
kdenetwork kttsd dcoprss ksysv kwin4 kuser kdeaddons kreversi kdf kspaceduel kig kpf juk noatun kdnssd
klines kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins fifteenapplet kdemultimedia kfaxview lskat libarts1-mpeglib
kaddressbook-plugins kviewshell kgamma kdeutils khelpcenter kdegraphics khangman knetworkconf
kdeartwork-theme-window ksmiletris konq-plugins kbattleship libpoppler-qt2 kiconedit kdeadmin kasteroids
kfouleggs libkdeedu3 kwalletmanager kopete ksnake kdelibs kiten kappfinder eyesapplet kdat kate kdeedu
kdelirc kpercentage superkaramba kjots kfax ksirtet kmines kdvi kget kuickshow kgpg konquest
kate-plugins kolourpaint kmousetool kdeaddons-kfile-plugins libarts1-xine kmag kmilo ktuberling kturtle
kaudiocreator ktimer kmid kteatime kverbos kdepasswd kmix kdeartwork kodo
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
kde kdegames
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 90.1kB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]?

Why is it removing KDE?

Same for Pilot:
# apt-get remove kpilot
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
knetwalk kpat ksokoban kolf blinken krdc krec korn libdb4.6++ krfb kscd kppp kshisen kmoon kmahjongg
ksig ksim libkscan1 kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style kregexpeditor kcoloredit
artsbuilder kdessh kanagram ktip kdeprint kmrml katomic kleopatra ksvg kscreensaver kruler ktux klettres
kgoldrunner kbackgammon kpoker kdepim-kfile-plugins libkiten1 ksnapshot kpackage kooka kenolaba
kblackbox kdebase atlantikdesigner konsolekalendar klatin kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins kstars ksame
konqueror-nsplugins kbruch kpager kdepim-kio-plugins libkdegames1 kde-core kcalc keduca klipper kandy
kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data kontact kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kweather kmplot kalzium ksirc ksysguard
klickety kpovmodeler ksayit kmouth kalarm noatun-plugins kworldclock mpeglib kdewebdev kmenuedit
kdegames kicker-applets amor kdict ktouch ktnef khexedit ksplash kdeaccessibility kedit kbounce
kvoctrain korganizer kdetoys kdenetwork-kfile-plugins kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate akregator
kwordquiz kcron kview ktron kdenetwork kttsd dcoprss ksysv kwin4 libksieve0 kuser kdeaddons krever

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[kriebz]

'kde' is just a metapackage: it depends on the packages in that list (directly or indirectly). There's nothing wrong with leaving those other packages installed. The new apt/dpkg conventions try to help you remove cruft, so they let you remove those packages with `apt-get autoremove`. Instead of that, install a few that you need by hand to remove them from the list. When you don't see any in this list that you want, then run auto-remove.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

But I would lose core components like:

The following packages will be REMOVED:
        kde kdegames

The following packages will be REMOVED:
        kde kdepim kpilot

I need KDE. :)

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Telvin_3d]

Wait, your OS of choice has 50MB of extra stuff? Oh God, th world is ending! How will you possibly manage if you can't free up that massive portion of your dozens and dozens of GB of storage? It's a travesty! We should lynch the developers!

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Darkness404]

But KDE is simply a metapackage much like ubuntu-desktop, for example, if you want to install KDE you simply do sudo apt-get install kde, removing the package KDE only removes the KDE metapackage.

The only point of the KDE metapackage is to provide a 1-click install for KDE.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[faccenda]

No, they are not annoying. This is a very useful new concept in Debian, I believe that once you understand it, you can see how nice it is.

Explaining better:

All those packages are installed as dependencies of the metapackage 'kde'.

You are trying to remove one of it's dependencies (kdegames) and that's why apt-get want to uninstall all other dependencies and the 'kde' itself.

If you want those packages, but not the kdegames, you should install those packages by hand (or at least those starting with kde, that I think most of them are metapackages also).

It can be new in Debian, but only relatively new in Ubuntu (I believe is in some new version of the apt system), but quite old in Gentoo. And it was one of the things that I missed most in Debian.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

Well, I installed KDE from net-installer and it seems to installed everything. How do I uninstall packages/features I don't want like kdegames, kpilot, etc. then?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[pipatron]

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops. Every gigabyte here is precious, since there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen. Those 50MB are easily much more, sometimes up to gigs of useless crap. All applications also take up space in the menus, which might be annoying on a portable device with a smallish screen.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

Well, yes for /usr that only has 646 MB free.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

# apt-get remove kde
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
    knetwalk kpat ksokoban kolf blinken krdc krec libdb4.6++ krfb kscd kppp kshisen kmoon kmahjongg ksig
    ksim libkscan1 kwifimanager kcharselect kjumpingcube kdeartwork-style kregexpeditor kcoloredit
    artsbuilder kdessh kanagram ktip kdeprint kmrml katomic ksvg kscreensaver kruler ktux klettres
    kgoldrunner kbackgammon kpoker libkiten1 ksnapshot kpackage kooka kenolaba kblackbox kdebase
    atlantikdesigner klatin kfloppy kdegraphics-kfile-plugins kstars ksame konqueror-nsplugins kbruch kpager
    libkdegames1 kde-core kcalc keduca klipper kdemultimedia-kappfinder-data kdeadmin-kfile-plugins kweather
    kmplot kalzium ksirc ksysguard klickety kpovmodeler ksayit kmouth noatun-plugins kworldclock mpeglib
    kdewebdev kmenuedit kdegames kicker-applets amor kdict ktouch khexedit ksplash kdeaccessibility kedit
    kbounce kvoctrain kdetoys kdenetwork-kfile-plugins kimagemapeditor atlantik kbstate kwordquiz kcron
    kview ktron kdenetwork kttsd dcoprss ksysv kwin4 kuser kdeaddons kreversi kdf kspaceduel kig kpf juk
    noatun kdnssd klines kdemultimedia-kfile-plugins fifteenapplet kdemultimedia kfaxview lskat
    libarts1-mpeglib kaddressbook-plugins kviewshell kgamma kdeutils khelpcenter kdegraphics khangman
    knetworkconf kdeartwork-theme-window ksmiletris konq-plugins kbattleship libpoppler-qt2 kiconedit
    kdeadmin kasteroids kfouleggs libkdeedu3 kwalletmanager kopete ksnake kdelibs kiten kappfinder
    eyesapplet kdat kate kdeedu kdelirc kpercentage superkaramba kjots kfax ksirtet kmines kdvi kget
    kuickshow kgpg konquest kate-plugins kolourpaint kmousetool kdeaddons-kfile-plugins libarts1-xine kmag
    kmilo ktuberling kturtle kaudiocreator ktimer kmid kteatime kverbos kdepasswd kmix kdeartwork kodo
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
    kde
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
After this operation, 41.0kB disk space will be freed.

So removing kde will not uninstall KDE I use? What about the other packages like kppp (yes, still use dial-up modem)?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[obi]

Read what apt says.

"The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:"
This does _not_ mean they're going to be removed.

"The following packages will be REMOVED:"
Only that specific convenience meta-package gets removed.

To further illustrate this, check this line:
"After this operation, 41.0kB disk space will be freed."
Somehow I think KDE takes more than 41.0kB, don't you?

If you really wanted to remove the kde meta-package together with all the dependencies that it pulled in (so all the things you didn't explicitly apt-get install yourself), you'd use "apt-get autoremove kde".

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, who cares, your SSD will die shortly.
Damn limited read/write times.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[poopdeville]

$ sudo su
# rm -rf /usr/local/lib/KDE /etc

to get rid of the KEtcetera (games, mouse gazers, and other pointless) stuff.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

Interesting. How can I tell which packages are meta and are not? I also use deborphan to remove any packages that have no dependencies.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

Please die now.

Just because someone does not know something, and asks a legitimate question, is no reason to give them instructions that will completely fuck over their machine.

Seriously man, how the hell can you act like that to another human being?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[__aajbyc7391]

yes, indeed. why should it remove kde if you remove a game (or the batch). something seems badly broken!

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

With apt-cache show
ej:
$apt-cache show kubuntu-desktop

Package: kubuntu-desktop
Priority: optional
Section: metapackages
Installed-Size: 44
Maintainer: Jonathan Riddell
Architecture: i386
Source: kubuntu-meta
Version: 1.75
Depends: ...
Recommends: ...
Filename: pool/main/k/kubuntu-meta/kubuntu-desktop_1.75_i386.deb
Size: 18440
MD5sum: 49fac831557253af404eca7f5dd5b521
SHA1: 0c013e50c769e5175024a2172f47bfa9284e97f0
SHA256: d5cf626d7be4330bc627a355afce5138f25ba5e0c8bf361864e4563cb9b741cf
Description: Kubuntu desktop system
  This package depends on all of the packages in the Kubuntu desktop system
  .
  It is safe to remove this package if some of the desktop system packages are
  not desired.
Bugs: mailto:ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
Origin: Ubuntu
Task: kubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-desktop-kde

(The example is from kubuntu 8.04, but the fields section and/or description will probably contain the word "metapackage")

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[poopdeville]

RTFM LUSAR NUUB

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[FishWithAHammer]

Er, no. Read what apt says--it doesn't uninstall those packages, they're just marked as unnecessary and can be removed.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[antdude]

Question: How can you tell which ones are metapackages and not?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[clang_jangle]

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops. Every gigabyte here is precious, since there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen.

Funny, that doesn't sound like the future to me. Sounds more like you're living in a solid state version of 1997.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[MrNaz]

Yea, a 1997 with laptops that weigh 1kg, have a battery life of 5 hours and a screen that is actually capable of doing graphics work on.

I wish I was around in *your* 1997.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[MrNaz]

Open Source at its very best.

The rest of us thank you for the wonderful work you are doing helping get free software into the mainstream.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

What this raging homo wants the kde-core package.

Just because the package name sounds like what you want doesn't mean it is, you can 'apt-cache show' to see what it actually is.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[clang_jangle]

Just use apt-get remove kpilot kdegames kde_whatever_you're_trying_to_get_rid_of and watch your output. When it says "the following packages will be removed: list_of_packages" only the packages listed after "removed" will be removed. So, as someone else pointed out, kde is safe to remove (it is a meta package) and of course the kdegames and kpilot and plenty of others can also be safely removed.
Also, I hope you will ignore the trolls who give false answers or tell you to RTFM. They are full of crap, and you are to be commended for having the courage to ask such questions. The day you can't get a decent answer to a valid question on /. will be the day that /. ceases to exist for me.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

The metapackages have the word metapackage in the description

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Daengbo]

You can also use "aptitude keep-all" to keep the packages tagged as {a} (automatically installed).

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[afabbro]

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops

Um, no, some of you are living in 2008 and that's why your SSD drives are small and "every gigabyte is precious".

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[clang_jangle]

Yea, a 1997 with laptops that weigh 1kg, have a battery life of 5 hours and a screen that is actually capable of doing graphics work on. I wish I was around in *your* 1997.

Well, except for weighing ~5 lbs more and a max battery life of four hours, we had this way back in 1995. So I'm not really impressed.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Tubal-Cain]

Like the AC said, they will say meta-package in the description. And it will be ridiculously small. Like someone else pointed out: KDE doesn't take up only ~40kiB.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[H0p313ss]

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD on our laptops. Every gigabyte here is precious, since there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen.

How quaint... some of us are reading this on our mobiles with dozens of gigabytes of storage on chips the size of a fingernail.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

something seems badly broken!

It's your ability to read. Apparently you failed to read:

• The apt output
• The half dozen posts before yours explaining the apt output
• The apt documentation

Debian: "Too hard" because you'd have to read.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[BillyGee]

"introduced 1995.08.25 at $6,500 (5300ce); " In 2007, $6,500.00 from 1997 is worth: $8,397.03 using the Consumer Price Index $8,162.43 using the GDP deflator $9,408.66 using the value of consumer bundle * $8,671.87 using the unskilled wage * $9,765.17 using the nominal GDP per capita $10,807.50 using the relative share of GDP Rich. For that money today one could get a laptop with 128G SSD...and...another 15 x 128G SSD drives on top of it. Thanks for shopping with us!

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[xalorous]

Umm, during install, uncheck everything, then select KDE? Then make sure that it didn't automatically pick up the extra KDE stuff you don't want.

Or, uninstall everything like you just almost did, then REINSTALL KDE. Not that hard.

I should think that, of all distros, Debian would have a bare KDE preset option.

sheesh, and I'm not even a hardcore linux guy/geek/fanboi

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

Congratulations -- You've just discovered that new technologies cost more when they first come out! When can we expect to read your whitepapers, O Great One?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Mystra_x64]

You can use:

aptitude unmarkauto package-1 package-2 ...

on those other packages that you don't want to be mark as auto-installed.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[MPAB]

That's perhaps the worst vulnerability of OSS. Once it gets to same maintream users that struggle to understand the verbose wizards and assistants of Windows, how long will it be before "bad guys" offer to help them just to make the user sudo a trojan?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us already live in the future and use SSD ... Every gigabyte here is precious

Ah, the price of being an early adopter.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Kent Recal]

Well, you can always trade in lifetime to recover more of those precious gigabytes...

• You can go through all your packages and remove those that you don't need. Many dependencies are not mandatory.
• You can remove documentation and meta-files that you don't need.
• You can enable compression in your filesystem.
• You can switch to gentoo where you get to decide which libraries every individual app will link to - and shave off even the last megabytes.
• If that's still not enough you are always free to grow your own, perhaps around dietlibc or uclibc.
• Ofcourse you also can always advantage of prior art in those areas.

But I suggest you simply do what everybody does: Buy a bigger disk and stop whining. Or live with the trade-off you made by going SSD.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[dodecalogue]

well, in this case it is a metapackage, and people downplay this for some reason, but it happens quite often that the version in the repositories will require some things which I do not want, or which will not work with my machine, forcing me to install from source which is totally fine EXCEPT that it will sometimes come up that I haven't installed in a way pleasing to the package manager and annoyances spiral. I had a problem recently with pidgin and gstreamer... and arts and amarok... and some others.

also WHY ARTS. this is a tangent but I personally could be fine only ever using ALSA and jack. maybe oss because it plays well with alsa.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Daimanta]

In my future, people have SSDs and HDDs living together.

As well as cats and dogs.

MASS HYSTERIA!

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

well, he's a raging homo. of course he wants a big package pounding his asshole like jackhammer.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[dmsuperman]

Did somebody get up from the keyboard mid-post, and somebody else sit down? How is "there's often not dozens, hardly even one dozen" the future?

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

it wasn't said that it will uninstall. he said that it _want_ to uninstall. and that's why the guy up there is scared.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[X0563511]

Learn how to work 'equivs' - then you get your nifty metapackage that "provides" kdegames, which tricks "kde" into staying installed.

Equivs was made specifically to fix this "issue".

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[skeeto]

"Linus' law: files grow" ;-)

Source.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[shallot]

Run e.g. 'apt-cache show kde' and read the fine description. The same stuff is also available inside aptitude, or at http://packages.debian.org/anypackagename

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[shallot]

So you're saying that you can't afford the space to install all those extra k* package, but you can afford the time to go into the package manager and explicitly select each and every one of them so that they can actually try to invade that precious space?

How about... not doing that? :)

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[shallot]

It is absolutely not a new concept in Debian, it's been in aptitude for ages now... the changelog says clearly:

[...]
  aptitude (0.2.9-1) unstable; urgency=low

      * New upstream release. Debian bug-related changes:
          - aptitude now tracks automatically installed packages, similarly
              to deborphan/debfoster. (Closes: #122726, #102205, #114464)
[...]
  -- Daniel Burrows Sat, 9 Feb 2002 11:24:08 -0500
[...]

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Any idea why man apt-get on my Etch box has no mention of autoremove whilst my Ubuntu 7.10 box (I haven't upgraded yet!) *does* mention autoremove? Oh, and both man pages say 29 February 2004 at the end!

apt-get --version on Etch and Ubuntu 7.10 shows, respectively:

etch$ apt-get --version
apt 0.6.46.4-0.1 for linux i386 compiled on Feb 26 2007 16:19:57
Supported modules:
*Ver: Standard .deb
*Pkg: Debian dpkg interface (Priority 30)
S.L: 'deb' Standard Debian binary tree
S.L: 'deb-src' Standard Debian source tree
Idx: Debian Source Index
Idx: Debian Package Index
Idx: Debian dpkg status file

ubuntu7.10$ apt-get --version
apt 0.7.6ubuntu14.1 for i386 compiled on Oct 22 2007 10:25:30
Supported modules:
*Ver: Standard .deb
*Pkg: Debian dpkg interface (Priority 30)
S.L: 'deb' Standard Debian binary tree
S.L: 'deb-src' Standard Debian source tree
Idx: Debian Source Index
Idx: Debian Package Index
Idx: Debian Translation Index
Idx: Debian dpkg status file

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

They are diffrent versions as noted in the quote.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[mvdwege]

apt-cache show <packagename>. If it's a meta-package, the Debian devs are usually good enough to provide that in the description. In fact, the standard phrase goes something like "This is a meta-package that depends on all other packages to facilitate install. It can be safely removed after install."

Mart

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[FishWithAHammer]

It doesn't "want to uninstall," it says that they're packages that nothing depends on and can be removed.

Stop anthropomorphizing the poor computer. :(

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you guys don't see a -1 Troll for what it is, you shouldn't be using Luniz.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[Strake]

It would matter on, say, an embedded system.

Re:Dependencies are annoying.

[rootooftheworld]

That, OR - sommebody ads a system for installing bundles, which can selectively install components from GUI. This thing with the metapackages is a hackjob gone bad.

How can this be?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only been sixteen months since Etch was released, not three years! Something's wrong!

Re:How can this be?

[Darkness404]

No, you have to realize, this is like KDE 4, just because it is nearing completion doesn't mean that it will be released this year. That and Duke Nukem Forever.

Sigh, JPG screenshots

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone, please think of the children, and tell this guy about using PNG for screenshots!

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Just look at the icons in this shot. The fellow is running more proprietary code than some windows boxes I've met. Just be glad they aren't .bmp or, even better, .wmf format.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[jay-be-em]

png is far better than jpeg for images with lots of gradients and solid colors like screenshots than. Compare similarly sized screenshots using png and jpg -- jpg will be full of artifacting.

If you were complaining about someone using pngs for photographs you'd have a point.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[Anonymous Coward]

If I had mod points, I'd be confused as to whether to mod you insightful or informative. Then, I'd have a drink to think it over, end up at the same point, have another drink, repeat, and end up drunk. Thankfully, I have no mod points, since tomorrow is a work day for me.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[jay-be-em]

Forgive me I'm a fucking idiot :)

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[MrNaz]

Please can you tell us more about the windows boxes you met. What are they like to talk to? Are they overly trusting? I bet they're the polar opposite of the OpenBSD boxes I met. The conversation went like this:

Me: Hi guys! Enjoying the tofu at this conference?
OpenBSD_box1: Who the fuck are you?
OpenBSD_box2: We don't know you, get lost before we beat you to a pulp.
OpenBSD_box1: He's leaving, but let's beat him anyway!
OpenBSD_box3: Hey! He's still conscious! You guys are such slackers!

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[Anonymous Coward]

Photographs in PNG format is an A-OK idea.

It preserves the images pretty accurately compared to JPEG, and is usually 3 - 8 MB less in size compared to raw formats.

With JPEG you get 300 - 400 Kb files, but then you also get ugly artifacts with them. 80 - 100% JPEG Quality is the range you want if the image will ever be viewed outside of The Web.

So there is no point complaining about someone using PNG for photographs.

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[the_one(2)]

Interesting that this was modded +5 informative =P

Re:Sigh, JPG screenshots

[El_Muerte_TDS]

Indeed. It should have been modded +5 insightful.
How often do you see a fucking idiot acknowledge him/herself?

freebsd

[timmarhy]

if you want something like debian that isn't as cutting edge but stable, use freebsd it's far better. i admin'd freebsd boxes for years and it was a joy to work with.

Re:freebsd

[Tubal-Cain]

I see 3 install ISOs. Debian has 21 images, but you only really need the first one to install with a GUI. IIRC, openSUSE 10.1 required a minimum of 3 discs out of 5. So tell me: Which ISOs do I need to have KDE installed at boot? My ISP doesn't like it when I download CD images, so I want to avoid downloading all three if at all possible. Unfortunately, I am not connected to the Internet by a wire, so unless one can use a WPA2 wifi connection during the installation, a netinstall is out of the question. Thanks.

Re:freebsd

[timmarhy]

download the 10meg boot cd on the freebsd site and download only the bare bones packages during the install.

Re:freebsd

[westyvw]

ROFLMAO : If i want debian that ISNT as cutting edge? With the super fast release cycles of debian stable whizzing out of the gate so fast I too say : Slow Down, lets not get carried away!

Re:freebsd

[beav007]

I resent that. I'm personally looking forward to the new release of Debian. I've been hearing good things about KDE3, so I'm hoping that it's stable enough to be included in this version.

I also hear that some mysterious issues with OpenSSL have been fixed by Debian developers, which could save us from memory leaks and increase performance. Personally, I'm amazed that the OpenSSL devs haven't fixed this issue themselves yet.

Obviously, this distro is where all the exciting new development action happens. I'm very excited to be on the bleeding edge with Debian!

Re:freebsd

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be confusing Debian with Ubuntu.
Debian aims to be stable, not cutting edge.
Even Debian's testing branch is more stable than most distributions.

Re:freebsd

[Anonymous Coward]

Two notes:
1. When you have some router box hidden in the corner, you don't want to upgrade it every two years. Been there, done that (I had to upgrade from woody to sarge to keep at least oldstable and get security support).
2. There a thing called "Debian Sid", power-boosted by "Debian Experimental", that is quite cutting edge. You get new releases almost immediately for many packages (KDE, Xorg etc.).

Re:freebsd

[tokul]

I also hear that some mysterious issues with OpenSSL have been fixed by Debian developers, which could save us from memory leaks and increase performance. Personally, I'm amazed that the OpenSSL devs haven't fixed this issue themselves yet.

OpenSSL devels themselves are partially responsible for Debian OpenSSL issue. Coding methods that look unsafe were used without documenting or explaining them.

Re:freebsd

[smchris]

Think you are right. Been running Lenny for the duration a little modified with a couple things pinned. Testing an Ubuntu 8.04 64-bit on another drive. Leaning this week toward wiping the Ubuntu. Ubuntu is pretty but they seem to break as much as they add. Accommodate a nit here and there like the article _very_ nicely details and Debian is just the more stable foundational code.

Re:freebsd

[Anonymous Coward]

Etch would be the Leading edge of Debian, the bleeding edge of Debian is sid, the unstable branch.

KDE 3.5 is in etch

apt-cache policy kdebase
kdebase: Candidate: 4:3.5.9.dfsg.1-5

It's not Debian Lenny Beta 2

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the current testing branch, installed using the second beta of the Debian-Installer version to be included in Lenny. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I already use a modern stable Debian...

[mortonda]

It's called Ubuntu.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian...

[wcpalmer]

Actually, Ubuntu is built off of Debian Sid, which is 'unstable'.

However, I am assuming that you already knew that and were merely attempting to (unsuccessfully) troll.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian...

[mortonda]

No, actually neither of those facts are relevant. The branch that Ubuntu comes from is irrelevant. Ubuntu is quite stable in its own right.

Why this is a troll but the BSD post isn't is beyond me.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian...

[kjots]

Why this is a troll but the BSD post isn't is beyond me.

Probably because Ubuntu is for lamoes that can't use a fucking computer properly, whereas BSD is actually an old-skool UNIX system that every true geek should honor and revere, even if they wouldn't be seen dead using it.

Re:I already use a modern stable Debian...

[jolinfire]

Be my guest and show us you're a true geek ;)

Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacking to get Wifi working, hacking to get PPP working, hacking config files to get sound working properly and no bluetooth.

And Freetards will have everyone believe GNU/Linux is ready for most people's desktops. Sorry, but it's still failing in this market.

Queue the lame, "It's the manufacturer's fault!" and the "It's the proprietary software dev's fault!" posts. Sorry, but this is utter crap, if these people were given a solid software base to develop on there wouldn't be a problem. Multiple distro targets, with the associated differences in subsystems, make it nearly impossible for third-party developers to develop for "Linux", whilst an unstable ABI means no device drivers for GNU/Linux lusers.

Yeah, yeah. -1 Truth. Mod me down, but some of you Freetards will read this, and you know deep-down that it's true. We really need to stop shoving GNU/Linux down people's throats, until it's ready for the desktop.

Re:Still not ready

[clang_jangle]

Hacking to get Wifi working, hacking to get PPP working, hacking config files to get sound working properly and no bluetooth. And Freetards will have everyone believe GNU/Linux is ready for most people's desktops. Sorry, but it's still failing in this market.

Debian is mainly used as a server OS, it isn't generally held up as a shining example of how Linux is ready for the desktop. It is fairly widely used in production environments, and by developers and other geeky types, and it is considered an excellent stable base for other, more specialised distros. Like, for example, Ubuntu -- which is more than "ready" for the desktop.

Yeah, yeah. -1 Truth. Mod me down, but some of you Freetards will read this, and you know deep-down that it's true. We really need to stop shoving GNU/Linux down people's throats, until it's ready for the desktop.

In order to criticize in a meaningful way, one needs to know the subject at hand. Otherwise, you're just trolling and making inappropriate noise. And really, "freetards"? What kind of "tard" does that make you then? :) [HINT: This is a geek forum.]

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

As opposed to a Windows Xp install this week. Win XP slipstreamed with SP3 on a MSI VR700 notebook that is sold as Vista only by MSI. There is no physical restriction on the notebook it's just they don't supply drivers in a readily accessible place.

Install XP, Display is marginal 1024x768 default VGA supported but not the native resolution (Intel 945GM chipset). No Ethernet, Wireless or Audio and I was never expecting the Web cam to work. Much hunting round for a day or so and everything is configured but this would have been impossible without some hardware knowlege. Don't tell me that Windows "Just Works"

Oh and BTW I found out the hardware confguration from an Ubuntu Live CD (8.04 & 7.10) where the hardware actually did "Just Work". Display Ethernet, Wireless and Audio all worked perfectly immediately from boot. I'll admit I didn't try the webcam.

This argument surrounding the effort required to make an O/S support the hardware is just bullshit. I would rate XP and Linux on par at least. A recent Linux Distro is generally better as it includes all the drivers. Vista, well good luck with that

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian isn't ready for the desktop? It's one of the most user friendly distros out there. Installing it is dead simple and once you install kde/gnome/etc. it's no different from anything else.

Re:Still not ready

[clang_jangle]

Debian isn't ready for the desktop?

Nowhere did I say that, but since you ask: depends upon whose desktop. I put my Mom on Ubuntu, and wouldn't dream of putting her on Debian. I'm not going to teach her to use synaptic, much less apt. Plus the drivers, default configs, and things like the Ubuntu update manager make all the difference for the non-geek user. Personally, I do use Debian for several of my desktop machines, but I was using it back when we had to install with dselect, so I know the CLI well enough that Ubuntu just feels a bit bloaty to me. Not that it's bloaty for a non-geek, who's probably used to winXP. It's all relative.

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

> no bluetooth.
not true. bluetooth since 2001.

Nice try troll.

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

I second that.

At my work we have 40 linux boxes all running debian etch. ( with plesk ) And so far it has been a very nice experience.

Re:Still not ready

[tacocat]

I have a question about Graphics Cards.

I have an NVidia something ancient on my computer. I'm not a graphics guy and this box is being reclassified as more server than anything else.

Fancy graphics cards that are a pain to use under Linux are not for me. NVidia has been nice but it's a pain to maintain between patches and it's quickly fallen into a pattern of not being supported. So I haven't really much need for this.

What I'm in the market for is a card that is of decent performance, readily supported by X (or is it XFree86?) and is a decent balance between costing less than all other components combined and actually doing something.

Re:Still not ready

[clang_jangle]

I understand that, and as I said, I use it myself. But in a work environment an end user usually doesn't admin the box, and thus does not see that side of it. While many people do find Debian simple to admin, it isn't reasonable to expect people like my mother to do it. Debian is relatively user-friendly, but not "ready for your mom" user-friendly (well, depends on your mom. My mom started out pointing the mouse at the monitor as if it was a remote). Anyway, that's why Ubuntu is so successful. They fill a gap in the marketplace, and provide a nice community of helpful people who aren't telling non-geeks to "RTFA" -- which, incidentally, was never meant to be a proper response to end users. That is something we "pros" often forget. We were told to RTFA because a pro needs to RTFA. An end user should not be expected to do that, and if you tell them to, you do FOSS as well as that end user a disservice, IMO. It's fine to show them the terminal, show them the man command, tell them about TFM, etc, but when you see their eyes glaze over, wrap it up and go back to showing them what they need to know, i.e. how to do what they always did in windows or whatever, how to add software, and how to upgrade.

I appreciate your love for Debian, but unless you've actually done those things in Ubuntu and in Debian, you probably cannot appreciate the difference it will make for non-geek end users.

Re:Still not ready

[Hatta]

Debian is mainly used as a server OS, it isn't generally held up as a shining example of how Linux is ready for the desktop. It is fairly widely used in production environments, and by developers and other geeky types, and it is considered an excellent stable base for other, more specialised distros. Like, for example, Ubuntu -- which is more than "ready" for the desktop.

Really, Debian is meant to be all things to all people. It makes a wonderful server, and a wonderful desktop. You just have to be willing to configure it as such.

Re:Still not ready

[suggsjc]

I put my Mom on Ubuntu

I'm in the process of doing the same. However, it may be short lived. She was having issues with her USB controller under XP, so I told her to give Ubuntu a try to see if it was a hardware or software issue. Its looking like its a hardware issue, but I just got her setup to dual-boot and haven't had a chance to really see what is going on. If she does buy something new, I doubt she'll stick with it "just because."

Not that it's bloaty for a non-geek, who's probably used to winXP

I think it is about "just right" for the non-geek but (as always) there is always room for improvement. If she does make "the switch" I'm sure that we'll end up using the system completely different and both end up learning more as a result. Example: I'm pretty sure it can be done via the GUI, but the only way I know how to find my IP address is via ifconfig...so after I was talking to her about how Ubuntu is so easy is to use within the first 5 minutes of her using the liveCD I had to tell her to break out the terminal. Like I said, there is probably a way to do it with the GUI that makes it look nice and pretty, but I don't know how to. Either way, I was able to login with Remote Desktop and get he at least up and running. This weekend will be the big challenge...wish me luck!


Something about the article itself. There is that saying (you don't have to agree, but still): "Ubuntu on the desktop, Debian on the server" and the summary talks mostly about KDE4 and games?!? This is just my personal opinion but as a (somewhat) Debian sysadmin, I'd really prefer that they focus on keeping things fast and stable instead of trying to throw in extra eye-candy, because the only Debian installs I've ever done were all going to be headless...

Re:Still not ready

[Eunuchswear]

xample: I'm pretty sure it can be done via the GUI, but the only way I know how to find my IP address is via ifconfig

Right click on the network manager applet (the two computers together if you're wired or the blue staircase if you're wireless) then click "connection information".

Something about the article itself. There is that saying (you don't have to agree, but still): "Ubuntu on the desktop, Debian on the server"

Appart from the background colour I don't see how you could tell them apart.

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

Your first line would deserve a +1 Insightful. Heck, this article makes it look like it's easier to configure Gentoo than Debian! He had problems with things that have been pretty easy (even on Slackware) for some time now.

Still, you get your -1 Troll for your "freetards" rant. Pity, you had a point that I was amazed not to see posted before.

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of "tard" does that make you then? :) [HINT: This is a geek forum.]

OK, I'm stumped. What kind of a "tard" does that make him?

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, I'm stumped. What kind of a "tard" does that make him?

Probably a wintard, possibly an astroturftard as well. Oh, and certainly an anontard.
Oh, wait...

Re:Still not ready

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like you have not tried Ubuntu. Give the wubi a shot and install ubuntu as another application in windows (XP or Vista), it is just double clicking.

After a couple of days, tell us if you think that ubunto is not ready for the desktop.

advice for upgrading a server?

[bcrowell]

I have a server running stable, and I don't have physical access to it. Does anyone have any practical advice on the safest way to handle the upgrade? Is a debian "stable" really stable when it first comes out, or is it better to wait a while? Basically, what I understand of the procedure is something like this:

1. Read the readme -- where do I find it?
2. apt-get update
3. apt-get dist-upgrade

I'm a little leery of this, since I've rendered ubuntu desktop systems unbootable by doing 2 and 3 -- and was told that it was because I should have done 1.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[dcam]

I am by no means an expert, however I have upgraded a couple of servers that I don't have physical access to.

I've normally tried to upgrade a server that I do have physical access to before upgrading the offsite server(s). So long as the server comes back up and ssh is still running pretty much everything else can be sorted out after a little time, the logs and google.

Ideally similar hardware.

Oh and googling around to see if anyone has hit problems doing the upgrade.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Dionysus]

1. Release notes will be here (right now they contain the etch release notes).
2. You probably will have to type apt-get dist-upgrade a couple of times (I usually average two). Reason is first couple of times, some packages will be stuck because of conflicting versioning, but it usually fixes itself once you get a couple of packages upgraded (usually once you get past libc and the kernel)

Generally speaking, Debian upgrade is much more painless than Ubuntu upgrades, IMO, possibly because of the longer release cycle. My Debian systems usually have some mixture of stable and backports, and I don't remember having any problems upgrading. Even desktops where I am third-party repos outside backports, I don't have any problems.

One thing you might want to do, especially if you don't have physical access to the server, is to wait a week to upgrade to see if there is a huge problem with other people's upgrade.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[cobaltnova]

IANAA (admin), but I do use Debian; and I have upgraded from stable to testing to unstable. I have gotten myself (into and) out of hard places by using aptitude. It is your friend: you can see EXACTLY what is going to happen, change preferences to prevent disaster, etc.

I found that unsetting "Automatically fix broken packages before installing or removing" let me determine my own resolution to conflicts, instead of relying on apt-logic (which usually doesn't do what I want).

If you want to get your hands dirty, this would be my approach. OTOH, if you don't want to learn a bit about the package dependency heirarchy of Debian, this probably isn't for you.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[gardyloo]

At least do a simulated dist-upgrade by using the -s switch before doing the "real" one!

      apt-get -s dist-upgrade

Sometimes, just sometimes, it'll catch things which might go wrong before they actually happen.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[UPi]

Ubuntu, maybe. But not Debian! I've upgraded my server to Etch via ssh. The upgrade was seamless, I didn't even have to log out and log in again. I was very impressed by how much work debian has put into the smooth upgrade. If you don't trust the system, you might want to "test run" the upgrade by running it on a local machine first.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[lakeland]

Every new stable is really well tested, I would expect it to work just fine.

Having said that, if you don't want it to happen then just change your sources.list from 'stable' to your release name.

If you don't have remote KVM I would be tempted to wait a week or so after release before upgrading - just to see if others have hit snags.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[calix0815]

I second that. I've remotely upgraded my server from woody to sarge to etch. If you follow the detailed instructions in the release notes there won't be a problem. I also waited for two months after the release before upgrading, just in case an important issue with the release notes came up short after the release.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[batray]

Leave it alone and only apply the security updates. I have a server happily running sarge that I have no plans to change.
Onnce you have a stable web server that does what you need. Only change things you need to maintain security.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Anonymous Coward]

First of all check your /etc/apt/sources.list

Does it say stable or etch in the deb & deb-http rules?

When it is etch, then you can dist-upgrade all you want, but it will stay old-stable. That is not a bad thing, as you might want to do a normal upgrade first.

Your server probably has some specific task. Checkout the differences between the etch release and the lenny release. You can do that for example on http://packages.debian.org/ . Normally the upgrade will go quite smooth. If you are not sure, wait a couple of months and google: "debian etch lenny upgrade hell package-name"
You could also install etch in VM, install the same packages, upgrade and test.

When you are sure the upgrade will go just fine:

sed -i "s/etch/lenny/" /etc/apt/sources.list
apt-get update
apt-get dist-upgrade
(repeat and hope for the best)

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[dcam]

Every new stable is really well tested, I would expect it to work just fine.

The last move from sarge to etch caused some issues for me, specifically the postfix-mysql authentication. I sorted them all out within about an hour or two after the upgrade, but it does happen.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[shish]

Leave it alone and only apply the security updates. I have a server happily running sarge that I have no plans to change.

Ummm.. you know that sarge no longer gets security updates, right? :S (announcement)

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[petermgreen]

debian provides some security update overlap but not all that much. So if you want to continue getting security updates you need to upgrade within about a year.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[petermgreen]

IMO you should always use the release name in your sources.list. There are usually a couple of things that need to be taken care of before upgrading from one release to the next and you need to have time to sort things out if something does go wrong.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[petermgreen]

Read the readme -- where do I find it?
The official instructions for the upgrade including details of known pitfalls will be in the release notes. Afaict the lenny ones haven't been written yet but they should be written and easy to find by the time lenny becomes stable.

Often there are some packages that they advise upgrading first before starting the main upgrade process. and you are likely to have to install the new kernel manually.

If you have a local machine with similar hardware doing a practice upgrade on that first is probablly a good idea.

waiting a while is probablly not a bad idea as the release notes are likely to be updated as new information about possible pitfalls comes in.

If the server does not have a serial console or remote kvm you need to make sure that if something does go wrong someone who knows what they are doing can be got to the server to sort it out. The vast majority of debian upgrades go fine but it pays to be prepared when they don't (say because the new kernel doesn't get on with your hardware).

Obviously test out the software you run on the server under lenny on a test machine before upgrading. Particualarlly if it is something unusual or custom.

If your bootloader has the option to boot a configuration once (I know lilo does and I think grub does) use it so you can fall back to the old kernel with a simple power cycle.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably will have to type apt-get dist-upgrade a couple of times (I usually average two). Reason is first couple of times, some packages will be stuck because of conflicting versioning, but it usually fixes itself once you get a couple of packages upgraded (usually once you get past libc and the kernel)

Generally speaking, Debian upgrade is much more painless than Ubuntu upgrades

Yeah, sounds really stable to me.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[ct1972]

Just to note: you should use aptitude rather and apt-get.

I think this has been officially the case for some time now, and the former's handling of various situations is considered superior.

BTW. I've rarely had problems in such upgrades, but I agree, without physical access you should read the release notes (as noted already these will be here with great care. You will see they do advocate aptitude.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be leery of an update code-named "Lenny", too (newly termed stable). That and not having physical access.

"Never go full retard," Lazarus tells Speedman. Actors who win critical acclaim, including Dustin Hoffman in "Rain Man" and Tom Hanks in "Forrest Gump," Lazarus adds, play partially disabled. Those who go "full retard," such as Sean Penn in "I Am Sam," get shut out during awards season.

I wouldn't want you/your servers to be left out during awards season.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Anonymous Coward]

I did this for 3.0 to 4.0, worked fine. But don't forget this was on a server, not a workstation/desktop. Which means it only had the necessary applications installed.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[TheRudle]

You will need to change your /etc/apt/sources.lst . Wherever it says etch, change it to lenny. Then run those commands.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[ThinkingGuy]

I would add one additional step:

0. Back up your data and configuration files

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Danny Rathjens]

Are you joking?
http://debian.org/

If you're upgrading to the latest stable release from a previous version, please read the release notes before proceeding.

I'm trying really hard to not make some disparaging comments. Let's just say that ubuntu is for those who can't figure out how to install debian. ;)

To be more helpful, it is indeed possible to simply do an "aptitude update && aptitude dist-upgrade" but it's safer to follow the detailed instructions in the release notes that advise such things as upgrading the kernel first and making a few other precautions that can help resolve some rare problems that can occur. (e.g. if your system happens to get powered off in the middle of the upgrade)

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[marcosdumay]

Well, I'd tell you to wait a day or two, but other people already said a week. I guess you are not in such a rush that can't wait a week, so, follow their advice ;)

I'd also change those steps a bit:

1. Read the readme
2. Read /. Really, it does normaly help. Wait untill /. readers comment on the upgrade.
3. apt-get update && apt-get upgrade #In case a previous bug recurs.
4. apt-get install apt-listbugs #If you don't have it already.
5. apt-get -s dist-upgrade #Sometimes it is usefull, but not aways. Remember to check if ssh server will stay there.
6. for((i=0; i < 5; i++)); do apt-get dist-upgrade; done #Do it
7. Manualy run lilo or grub-install, check for errors. You'll be getting a new kernel at the upgrade.
8. nohup reboot& #As soon as you can, to check if it will come back ok.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[johnw]

I have a server running stable, and I don't have physical access to it. Does anyone have any practical advice on the safest way to handle the upgrade?

The first question to ask yourself is "Why do I want to upgrade this server?". Until you can come up with a compelling reason the best advice is - don't upgrade it.

Security patches for etch will continue to be available for some time yet. If there isn't a problem, don't try to fix it. Wait until you have a need to retire that piece of hardware and replace it with a new box. Then install the current stable Debian on the new box, test it, and finally swap it in as a replacement.

I can understand someone upgrading a desktop for the latest eye candy or just simple availability of nice new programs (and there are a *lot* in Lenny) but if your remote headless server is already doing its job fine with Etch then leave it alone (security patches excepted of course).

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[johnw]

Leave it alone and only apply the security updates. I have a server happily running sarge that I have no plans to change.

Good advice. Interestingly I've spent much of today doing a virtual upgrade (upgrading a copy) to a server which is currently running Sarge. I've been upgrading it to Etch! I might even go mad and upgrade it to etch-and-a-half.

Re:advice for upgrading a server?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it may be a good idea to first check out "tune2fs -l /dev/ " to be sure that there will not be a disk check on a reboot.

-goestin-

You should read the article.

[twitter]

Add âoecontrib non-freeâ at the end of each repository line. Also, add the following two repo lines to the file: deb http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ lenny main deb, http://download.skype.com/linux/repos/debian/ stable non-free

So yeah, the guy has taken a lot of private parts from people who don't have his best interest at heart. This is something Debian Developers don't think you should do, even if you call your laptop the Black Tower.

For all of that, I did not see him add decss, which is actually free software, and his desktop looks like shit when he's finished. He's probably so afraid of a DMCA action that he skips mentioning decss. It is sad that laws can keep US citizens from free software and shove some into the hands of people who say, "suck my dick." The ugliness of his desktop is a matter of personal taste. Free desktops look better than an ugly Win 2000 knock off. I can't stand icons on my desktop.

Re:You should read the article.

[Anonymous Coward]

> suck my dick.

wat

Re:You should read the article.

[MrHanky]

What the fuck is wrong with you, twitter? A reason for not mentioning decss, apart from the fact that it's off topic for the article, is that no one uses it anymore. It's been replaced by better means. If you've decided to play a free software zealot, you should at least try not being a total moron about it. Whining about lack of mention for decss in an article about the upcoming release of Debian today is like whining about lack of mention of the latest Windows ME innovations in a preview of Windows 7. Oh can it be because of the ongoing antitrust trials? It's just retarded.

I don't normally notice your comments, but I can see why most people who do consider you to be a total fucking idiot.

Re:You should read the article.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should he add decss when he doesn't have a DVD drive?

He, it will be ok as usual... It's still testing.

[eaman]

Like all of the Debian users 'round here already know, from the archive there's a kde-core (meta) package:

This meta-package includes the core official modules released with KDE. This includes just the basic desktop (browser, file manager, text editor, control center, panel, etc.) and important libraries and data, in addition to the aRts soundserver.

And then there's a kde package "all-included" for those who want a quick "all-included" KDE desktop setup. That's as it is now, as it was before Etch, and Lenny will do the same. Just let those nice devs sort the packages and the dependencies as they float in the testing branch, no need for panic.

who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, this "stable" branch is now so out of date as to be useless.

Does what it says on the box

[Twitchimus]

OK, so the gentleman downloaded and installed the *KDE* version of Debian Lenny, and then says his main complaint "is its inclusion of way too many of KDE's rich set of applications, such as games, tools, etc."

I can understand that; I once installed Windows XP, but there were far too many Microsoft applications for my liking.

Re:Does what it says on the box

[petermgreen]

In general the desktop install tasks of debian (at least the default gnome one and the kde based one, not sure about the xfce one) do leave a rather bloated install.

If you are at all concerned about disk space it is usually a much better idea to install the base system and then add what you want on top of that yourself.

Re:Does what it says on the box

[synthespian]

You probably don't realize this and you probably meant to come out as being ironic but, in fact, you just ended up saying that the situation really sucks.

Re:Does what it says on the box

[debian_dadaist]

xfce is perfectly alright. i used it for a while on a 400mhz pentium and on an old dell notebook. it's in genral as fast as fluxbox but at the same time a fully functioning desktop. on the other hand you can choose one of 100 window managers with aptitude and use it on top of gdm. the problem with gnome and kde is that they are quite monolithic and you got too many processes running for a small system. i would say if you go over 500 megs and 1000Mhz chances are good that you can work without slowdown. if you got no diskspace you could solve it quick and dirty with sawfish's lisp-source package (hey, i did _not_ tell you this, ok?). this one will clean your disk :-). by the way: who needs a desktop anyway if there is screen? ;)

I Wouldn't

[maz2331]

Even if possible, I don't upgrade boxes that I can't get physical access to, or at least hit via an IP KVM so that reinstallation via CD is possible.

But I'm just really conservative on that.

Don't forget...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock smoking teabaggers!

Re:Don't forget...

[hdparm]

Oh come on mods, don't blow the unique opportunity to make this rather annoying troll +5,Funny.

Re:Don't forget...

[heelrod]

so how do you do those at the same time? Maybe inverted. Please ellaborate

Debian minimal bootstrap

[brianez21]

Because you said a netinstall is out of the question, might I suggest to first install a core CLI-only system? For example, these Debian ISOs are only 180MB in size and contain enough to get yourself up and running. From there you have a full Debian system at your disposal - you can configure your 802.11 and WPA2 settings and pull down KDE via apt-get as needed.

Re:Debian minimal bootstrap

[Tubal-Cain]

I am currently running Debian, I just want to expand my horizons a bit.

And I have never quite figured out configuring WiFi through the CLI.

Re:Debian minimal bootstrap

[brianez21]

It's actually not quiet so hard, the main command you use to get connected to an access point is iwconfig. You use iwlist scan to search for wifi networks and connect using iwconfig INTERFACE essid WIFI-NAME key NETWORK-KEY. For example, an example would be iwconfig eth1 essid brianhome key 1654513490. Once connected, you'd use ifconfig or dhclient to establish an IP address. Continuing from the previous example, you would use dhclient eth1 for DHCP.

More games = more interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one (in addition to welcoming our KDE overlords) think it is great that games are being included by default. More distros need to do this. Every LiveCD should be able to show people that Windows isn't the only OS where you can waste time playing Solitaire. A LiveCD/default install that doesn't have this is probably going to feel like an incomplete system to the average desktop user.

Re:More games = more interesting

[marcosdumay]

Also, KPatience should make it more clear that you can play some other kind of solitaire on it. The default one is too boring :)

Parent not Flamebait!

[Nick Ives]

It's clearly a joke. Hope this gets nuked in M2!

A few hacks and fixes??

[TardisX]

"Other than the need for a few hacks and fixes".

This is on a blog post that has appendices.

Iceweasel is named that way due to Mozilla

[Sipper]

I read The Fine Article; a few comments on the author's article:

Iceweasel
=-=-=-=-=
One of the complaints is that he wants "real" Firefox rather than the renamed Iceweasel. Well, until the Mozilla Foundation says differently, that isn't possible. Mozilla withdrew their prior permission to ship Firefox with a replaced logo that fit the Debian Free Software Guidelines, and the only way to comply with both Mozilla and the DFSG was to rename the application. So if you want to complain about this, write to Mozilla. I think Debian totally made the right choice to rename.

Shorter explanation:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat
Longer explanation:
      http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=354622

Playing a DVD
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The author wasn't able to test playing a DVD; normal movie DVDs that use encryption won't play out of the box. This is because Debian cannot ship libdvdcss2 as part of the main distribution for legal reasons, same as other distributions. There are other external repositories (outside of the US) that contain libdvdcss2 -- but it may not be legal to import the package into the US. You might find some choices if you put "Debian" and "multimedia" into Google and see what comes up.

Modem
=-=-=-=
Wow, the author set up the POTS modem. When is the last time you had to use one of those? Gotta give him credit for going through that effort.

- Chris

Re:Iceweasel is named that way due to Mozilla

[jolinfire]

Well, both debian and mozilla are guilty here. I think there are both in their rights. Mozilla is fighting to avoid bad press because some people could make some bad things based on mozilla source code. Debian cannot use official branding because of their social contracts. So, let's stop fighting. Anyway, this will be no longer a problem because soon Epiphany - gnome brower - will be using webcore instead of gecko. So...

Re:Iceweasel is named that way due to Mozilla

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should re-read the article.

The author couldn't test DVD playback only because the machine didn't have a DVD drive. It only had a CD drive.

Re:Iceweasel is named that way due to Mozilla

[Qzukk]

Wow, the author set up the POTS modem. When is the last time you had to use one of those?

Plenty of people still live in parts of the world without anything faster. But PPP isn't only for POTS, plenty of DSL services use PPPo[AE].

I think it's well past time to create a ppp-client package (conflicts with pppd) that has pppd configured the way that the 99% of the users who aren't modem pools will use it (for instance, not demanding a password from the other end of the line). Bonus points if the code starts diverging from the original pppd to become more client friendly (like having just one password file rather than chap and pap files, and sharing the user/pass configuration with the chat dialup script).

Good Point

[Gazzonyx]

Everyone becomes conservative with upgrades after the first time that a box 3000 miles away fails to come back up. Seriously, waiting for a remote reboot after a kernel update is always the longest two minutes of my life.

Even the headless boxes at my apartment wait for me to set aside time to haul out a monitor and keyboard if anything goes wrong during an update. It's better to assume that something will go wrong and be pleasantly surprised and ahead of schedule than to sit staring at pings that have been timing out for the last five minutes (while you think, maybe it's just taking a long time to init... yeah, right!).

And, regardless of what anyone says, a virtual machine test environment doesn't have anywhere near the complications that you get with heavy metal. A successful virtual machine test just means that nothing is assured to go wrong, nothing more.

Re:Good Point

[petermgreen]

than to sit staring at pings that have been timing out for the last five minutes (while you think, maybe it's just taking a long time to init... yeah, right!).
Often when a linux box hasn't been rebooted for a while it can take a long time to reboot because the boot scripts decide that the filesystems need checking. On a big filesystem this can take quite some time.

Re:Good Point

[gmack]

Indeed. Personally I'll upgrade everything except the kernel remotely and even the kernels are hand picked by me.

Some hosting companies can take several hours to process a reboot request. and then they have to call in a special tech ($200/hr) to chose another boot option if the system can't come up at all with the upgraded kernel. Even for hosting that's in the same city as me will take me an hour to get there just to handle a reboot.

I had a few six hour outages before I became very conservative,

Re:Good Point

[anarxia]

I only use servers with remote management if they are far away. They are not too expensive and the investment usually pays off the first time your server doesn't come up (remote management $ plane ticket $ + overtime $).

Re:Good Point

[aggemam]

If the filesystem is marked as such, sometimes a complete check will be performed during start-up. I once drove 50km to the datacenter in the middle of the night just to find out it was performing this disk check ... it sucked, but at least it wasn't 3000 miles.

Re:Good Point

[slashgrim]

Everyone becomes conservative with upgrades after the first time that a box 3000 miles away fails to come back up.

Ever try IP-enabled KVM switches? It's definitely not a silver bullet but can help with the stress.

Re:Good Point

[Gazzonyx]

To be honest, I've never heard of them. I'm assuming it's a low level VNC or something?

Re:Good Point

[HadenT]

This is where "Lights out management" is usefull. Almost all my servers are HPs with iLO - no need for physical access. You get separate network port (independed from OS) via witch server can be powered on/off and accessed via virtual serial port.

Re:Good Point

[synthespian]

Yeah. You better have physical access to boxen running Debian.

Debian can even uninstall kernel packages when you ask for something trivial (like uninstalling KDE or OCaml). This has been documented.

Obviously, this information won't sit right there in Ubuntu's front page of their web site or in the documentation that the Holy Debian Developers produce (as they perceive themselves), but Google for papers on the package dependency problem.

Re:Good Point

[Phroggy]

Here's a tip: if you have a very large filesystem that is NOT your root filesystem, e.g. something only used for SMB or NFS sharing, kill the processes that need to access it, unmount it, and run fsck before you reboot the box. Those services will be offline for awhile, but they would have been anyway while fsck was running at boot time. This way, you get to see the progress (and any errors that come up), and the rest of the box doesn't have to remain offline for an hour or two after reboot.

It's not a bad idea to do this at regular intervals anyway. An hour of planned downtime after business hours every three months is significantly less annoying than waiting for fsck to scan your file server after an unplanned reboot (UPS failure, hardware replacement, etc.).

Re:Good Point

[Phroggy]

Yeah, something like that. Think VNC server with PS/2 and VGA cables on the other end. As far as your server is concerned, it looks like a keyboard/mouse/monitor are connected (just like a regular KVM switch), but you can connect to it remotely. You can go into BIOS setup, you can look at the settings for your RAID controller at boot time, choose a kernel from your lilo/grub menu, view the message on screen during a kernel panic, etc.

I've never actually used one, because I don't know anyone who can afford them.

Re:Good Point

[indiehead]

"waiting for a remote reboot after a kernel update is always the longest two minutes of my life." i totally know what you mean, been there a couple of times

This article is full of errors and bad advice

[timrichardson]

It's not Beta 2 of Lenny. Only the installation program is Beta 2. So that's a big mistake.

And the mistakes continue.

The advice to remove iceweasel and replace it with Firefox is crazy. Iceweasel is 99.99% Firefox, and the version that comes with Debian is optimised to use libraries and other software in the distribution (like spell check). If you follow the advice and use the mozilla version of firefox, you lose this integration.

Some sites "sniff" for browser type, and iceweasel is not detected as Firefox (wsj.com, google docs). This is easily fixed by going to about:config, searching for useragent, and changing "iceweasel" to "firefox".
All firefox extensions that I know of work with iceweasel.

To install acrobat reader, just add the http://www.debian-multimedia.org/ repositories, and add the package acroread with Synaptic or apt-get.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[jolinfire]

Indeed, it is installer beta2, not lenny beta2 ;) Beside this, why does it need to install dillo ? It is not a dead project ? For IceWeasel and IceDove, I think it is not really useful to remove them. Only if you want latest firefox/Iceweasel code, why bothering ? :) Isn't Konqueror a good web browser ? And why adobe reader for pdf ? Isn't Evince or its kde equivalent not good enough ?

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[tacocat]

I'm aware of how badly someone might make of a review. But I'm curious about two things in Debian:

1. Is WindowMaker still supported?
2. Must you install KDE?

I've become a permanent fan of the ultralight interfaces and have found that the differences between WindowMaker and KDE are, for me, trivial at best. My opinion is strictly that a successful desktop will have the ability to serve the feature creature types who love KDE and Windows but also those who want to keep their clock cycles available for actually doing work.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[kipman725]

yeah you get a netinstall cd for debian and then chose only the base system and you can install whatever you want ontop. I did this and run fluxbox.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[Matt Perry]

This is easily fixed by going to about:config, searching for useragent, and changing "iceweasel" to "firefox".

Why didn't the maintainer do that before making the package? So now, instead of one person making one fix which would fix it for everyone, each person who uses this package has to duplicate effort to make the change themselves. What a bunch of wasted effort because of one lazy debian package maintainer.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[shallot]

I'm aware of how badly someone might make of a review. But I'm curious about two things in Debian:

1. Is WindowMaker still supported?
2. Must you install KDE?

There has never been a release of Debian with anything to the contrary, so it's reasonable to expect that it will continue to be that way with lenny, too.

Technically, a piece of software could lose support in Debian if nobody's left to be its maintainer. But if the software is reasonably popular (i.e. if it's not universally despised and has at least one active user who'd like to package it), and if it has reasonably maintainable packaging (i.e., if it doesn't have license issues, doesn't lack a compiler, or any similar thing that prevents packaging usually a byproduct of having a half-wit for upstream author), simply statistically, chances are good.

More specifically, Debian Project being controlled by a bunch of KDE-forcing WindowMaker-destroying monkeys - that would definitely be a separate Slashdot article :)

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they can't use the name "Firefox" when it isn't the version compiled by Mozilla. Yeah, it sucks, but blame Debian's general attitude and not the maintainer.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[timrichardson]

The Debian browser (or this one, you of course have a choice) is iceweasel. That's its name. The Debian team decided that the branding of Firefox is too restrictive to meet Debian's licence for free software. The solution, iceweasel, is good enough, and that's why no one has added firefox to the non-free repository.

The lazy parties are those few websites that do poor browser sniffing. There are only a few sites that think iceweasel is not the same as firefox. The only one that bothers me is the wsj.com. So most websites either don't care about which browser you use, or correctly treat iceweasel and firefox the same. Somehow, a handful avoid the practices of the many, and make a mistake.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[colmore]

Damn Small Linux can apt-get itself into however much of a full Debian you want. This is my preferred path for a minimal desktop.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[colmore]

That's not entirely true, Iceweasel has some important changes that integrate it with Debian shared libraries. Theoretically this makes it smaller and faster, though I'd like to see some numbers comparing it.

But it can't call itself firefox because it isn't firefox. That would break some sort of IP. You can change that however, and the Mozilla foundation probably aren't going to come after you.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[synthespian]

In fact, Damn Small Linux can install itself without human intervention, infinitely. Twice.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[Berzelius]

Some sites "sniff" for browser type, and iceweasel is not detected as Firefox (wsj.com, google docs). This is easily fixed by going to about:config, searching for useragent, and changing "iceweasel" to "firefox". All firefox extensions that I know of work with iceweasel.

I know the reasons that Debian had to change the name to Iceweasel, but it seems quite silly that it can't identify itself as Firefox to sites. It's beneficial for Firefox to score as high as possible at Netcraft.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[dcam]

Good call.

The other problem I have with installing things like this is you have to manage updated manually. It becomes your problem to monitor the patches for the apps you have installed, rather than say adding a daily cron job to manage it for you.

I'd much prefer managing apps through additions to sources.list.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[McGiraf]

It is not Debian that prevent the use of the name Mozilla, you're blaming the wrong party.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[emilper]

evince is a bit slow when rendering images embedded in pdf; adobe acrobat is a bit faster, though when reading books from gallica.bnf.fr (first large library to put public domain books on the net) , I wonder how come it took as much time to render the next page in 1999 on a 486 as it takes now on a amd64 ...

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[sir fer]

erm...I have etch and it comes with GNOME as the default desktop. I like GNOME. GNOME is good.

Re:This article is full of errors and bad advice

[colmore]

Fun with transitive verbs and indirect objects!

This is not good.

[inode_buddha]

This is not good.They actually managed to get a new Debian version out before I got laid...

No, no.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's all in the context, see. "suck my dick" is not enticing at all, no. But when it forms part of a paragraph where the legendary twitter is commingling robotic, mindless praise of FOSS (d3bian uber alles), offtopic buzzword bingo (decss FTW), derision for "teh man" (DMCA OMGWTFBBQ) and the oh-ever-so-slight Microsoft jibe, then "suck my dick" becomes much more palatable.

To use a completely inappropriate analogy, it's like someone offering you a steaming hog turd on a plate. Ew, you say. Yuck! you cry out. Yes, indeed. But dab a little Cool-Whip (TM) on it... and your outcome changes completely! See?

Combine that with the timeless .sig line and... well, you're looking at one of the timeless classics.

Stick with me, kid. You'll be figuring out twitter posts in no time.

Too Soon!

[shish]

Our servers were only upgraded to etch 6 months ago. While the upgrade process itself is quick and painless, checking every last detail to make sure the system is ready for customer use is a PITA, and I'd really rather stick with what we have + security updates :(

Re:Too Soon!

[gambolt]

that's what I'm screaming.

Slow down guys!

What's with the 'unsigned' tag?

[RichiH]

The three most current stories have them.. Why?

No enigmail support for icecape

[RandySC]

There used to be enigmail support for iceape, but now only for icedove.

Girlfriend

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe your boyfriend. Or just a friend.

WPA2

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it so difficult to get this working? I recently installed Lenny on my lap top and everything but this worked from the install. Am I missing something?

Do not panic

[Slashdot Parent]

1. Debian new releases ALWAYS come with release notes that contain upgrade instructions. Follow them. It is usually NOT as simple as a dist-upgrade if you have certain packages installed.
2. Debian stable is generally pretty stable upon release, but feel free to wait a bit if it will make you more comfortable. Just make sure that your sources.list says "etch" and not "stable". When lenny is realeased, etch will become 'oldstable'.

So basically, you've got the right idea. To read the release notes, go to the Debian website and look for the text "If you're upgrading to the latest stable release from a previous version, please read the release notes before proceeding."

That's the best thing about Debian. As long as you at least put forth some degree of effort to RTFM, Debian won't give you many surprises. They make it easy to find and use the documentation.

That was fast!

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats, MrHanky! You're already on twitter's enemies list! Don't be surprised when twitter's mom tracks you down to yell at you for being mean to her little boy at the playground.

Dependency problems solved RSN

[synthespian]

Dependency problems will be solved RSN, probably, by Nix OS.

http://nixos.org/nixos/

"NixOS is a Linux distribution based on Nix, a purely functional package management system. NixOS is an experiment to see if we can build an operating system in which software packages, configuration files, boot scripts and the like are all managed in a purely functional way, that is, they are all built by deterministic functions and they never change after they have been built. Such an operating system should have all the nice characteristics that the Nix package manager has:
The entire system kernel, system services, configuration files, etc. is built by a Nix expression in a deterministic and repeatable way.
Since configuration changes are non-destructive (they donâ(TM)t overwrite existing files), you can easily roll back to a previous configuration. For instance, the Grub boot menu in NixOS allows the user to boot into any previous system configuration that hasnâ(TM)t been garbage collected yet. This is very nice if something goes wrong.
Upgrading a configuration is as safe as installing from scratch, since the realisation of a configuration is not stateful. This is a result of being purely functional.
Multi-user package management any user can install software through the same mechanisms that the administrator uses. This is not the case for most package managers such as RPM.

Furthermore,
NixOS allows us to verify that Nix packages are really pure. Nix prevents undeclared dependencies between packages in the Nix store, but when you run Nix on an existing OS such as SUSE Linux, Nix cannot prevent a build script from (say) calling programs in /bin. If there is no /bin, such a build script will fail."

Problem: nobody gives a shit. Because, you know, eeewwwww, they said "functional." I personally would not expect anything smart to come out Debian. Their technology stalled in the 90s.

mmmhhhhhh!

[debian_dadaist]

aaaahhhh! it's Christmas time! i can already smell the cookies! lekker,lekker lenny! deb will once again show the rest of the world the meaning of the word distribution. deb's after all the best. e basta!

september seems wildly optimistic to me.

[petermgreen]

there are still arroung 350 rc bugs, the intended release kernel version isn't in testing yet and the installer team haven't produced a release candidate yet.

Given all that I very much doubt they will have the release finished in a month and a half.

Re:september seems wildly optimistic to me.

[debian_dadaist]

exactly - Christmas! howerver, there are bugs but the kernel version should'nt be the problem. for fun i'm running all my etch stuff without any change on a 2.6.26 kernel for about four weeks now. of course just on the box i use to make troubles in the internetz :-). this kernel really _is_ good. i don't think that will be the trouble. what makes me a little bit sad is that a couple of packages i like did'nt make into lenny :(. but what shells? equivs is your friend ;).

That was fast!

[clint999]

Learn how to work 'equivs' - then you get your nifty metapackage that "provides" kdegames, which tricks "kde" into staying installed.Equivs was made specifically to fix this "issue".