Slashdot Mirror
Adam Savage Revises Claim of Lawyer-Bullying On RFID Show
Nick writes "A few weeks ago a video of a talk given by Adam Savage of the television show MythBusters spread across the internet (including a mention on Slashdot.) On the video, Savage stated that the show was unable to produce an episode about previously known RFID vulnerabilities due to a conference call to Texas Instruments that unexpectedly included several credit card companies' legal counsel. TI (via a spokesperson talking with cnet.com) stated that only one lawyer was on the call and that the majority of the people on the call were product managers from the Smart Card Alliance (SCA) invited by TI to speak. Then Savage (via a Discovery Communications statement) reaffirmed that he was not on the call himself and that the decision was not made by Discovery or their advertising sales department but rather MythBuster's production company, Beyond Productions."
Ok, so they told him to revise his story to make them seem nicer or get the boot?
Methinks this is likely.
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
So, a retraction?
Stand down all the lawyer-hating "it's security through obscurity" flames?
Never!!!!
Rgds
Damon
http://m.earth.org.uk/
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
"I really, really like my job."
SmartCard Bullying myth...
BUSTED!
That said, I'm amused that all it took was one lawyer and a bunch of product managers (no bias here, right?) to cow a production company into submission.
This sounds like the kind of statement someone was forced to read to avoid a PR problem, usually this occurs because a lawyer told him "you can't say that we will get in trouble!" to be honest I'm more likely to believe his first statement.
-Ours is the wisdom of Solomon, the magic of Merlyn, the fall of Icaris.
It sounds like the blame has shifted, but the point is still the same: they would like to do a show on RFID, but they were politically motivated not to.
become a cartoon. Maybe like Rocky & Bullwinkle. "Hey Jamie! Watch me pull our show's credibility out of a hat!"
"the decision was not made by Discovery or their advertising sales department but rather MythBuster's production company, Beyond Productions."
Riiiiiiiight..... **rolling eyes**
Sounds like MythBusters needs to bust or prove this "Myth". Maybe they need to do a whole show on it.
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
I think it's safe to say that if he didn't have an intimidating phone call with a bunch of lawyers before, he HAS now. :)
And that's all I have to say about that!
Help a man when he is in trouble and he will remember you when he is in trouble again.
TI is obviously hoping that by quibbling over details, people will manage not to notice that the core of the story hasn't changed.
#DeleteChrome
No, no, that's probably true! Discovery didn't make the decision, they just presented the choice to the production company to either not produce the show, or take a long walk off a short pier.
Beyond Productions made the decision of which option to take entirely on their own.
The enemies of Democracy are
...the story was accurate.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Ladies and gentlemen, the TRUE Evil in our Country: Credit Cards - Visa, Mastercard, American Express and their subsequent host banks - which is all the banks because it's such easy money.
Don't use them you say?
Try it. No, go ahead and try to live in this day and age without a CC card. It's not all about "easy credit and instant gratification", it's the fact that MANY businesses exist and depend on credit cards and God forbid if you don't have one. Really? Yes really. Travel, for one.
We've grown so accustomed to these little evil pieces of plastic.
Consumer protection you say? HA! I say! All a merchant has to do is spell out exactly (even if it's in mice type that you can't read) what their policies are and when you the consumer goes and tries to dispute the charges, all the merchant has to say to the CC bank is that "it's spelled out clearly here" and BINGO, you're screwed!
Credit cards and especially Debit cards are an evil thrust upon us by Amex, Discover, Mastercard and Visa.
CONSUMER DEBT IS A RIP-OFF! NO EXCEPTIONS!
Why was there even a single lawyer in on such an innocent call?
That's not Picasso, that's Kandinsky!
... the lawyers put the thumbscrews on the production company and not on Discovery then? Wow, what a difference that makes. Boy, I feel the sudden urge to get an RFID implant.
Dude, have you worked with the legal department for a fortune 500 company? Our company policy is that if something is to be recorded, it must be scripted and the script approved by the legal department first.
Think Deeply.
Perhaps slashdotters should write to the production company and tell them to give the finger to TI and to the other companies involved in the conference do the show and just fuzzy out the names in the show when it airs.
Here's the deal, they've already got a case (to help back them up in case of a lawsuit) that has been proven that such information is legal to release. (MBTA smack down) They don't even have to do it step by step. I remember an episode where they skipped some steps when making "laughing" gas.
Seems to me people should know about this and possible false advertising or instilling a false sense of security that can come out of using these cards. Although I could see the Feds stepping in seeing as the National ID is supposed to have RFID (I think).
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
I try to guess what the explosives / secret chemicals are and then search on Google at the end of the show to see if I was right. I'm pretty good at it. It adds some more fun to the show :)
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Its not the first time that Mythbuster's has had obviously politically motivated skews on their production and/or results.
Like the time they were testing all the various myths involved in beating alcohol tests (Breathalyzer, etc) and were very careful to word their statements to say that no one method managed to beat all the different tests, and never specifying which methods beat which tests. Or the time they tested the fuel efficiency of drafting behind a big rig truck and spent most of the episode hamming up the potential dangers of tailgating.
To be fair though, in those cases it was more about Safety (translate Liability) as they could heavily damage road safety and Law Enforcement's ability to police it. Its like how in most fiction Ive seen, they always misquote the proportions of charcoal, sulfur, and salt peter that go into gunpowder, so the young and/or stupid won't go out and blow off fingers.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
I'm guessing this was scrapped mainly because it's not an easy story to make it interesting for the mainstream audience. It's one thing to show engines on fire, chemicals blowing up, and people getting zapped by high voltage; quite another to show Grant fiddling with a hex editor.
Their previous security exploits (for example, hijacking the fingerprint reader) were still very tangible hacks (wax impressions, photocopied prints, etc.). I'm guessing 99.9% of /. readers thinks this is worthwhile and 99.9% watch Mythbusters; however, this does not comprise 99.9% of Mythbuster's audience (or even a majority, I'd bet).
The decision was made by the Mythbuster staff in much the same way a man with a gun directed at him volunteers.
Anyone see "Wrong Trousers?" Gromit puts down the bat when feathers points the gun.
(Instant karma for using Wallace & Gromit!)
I know I'll be labeled pedantic, but that summary was just incomprehensible. Several grammar errors, unclear phrasing...I had to go watch the video to understand what the hell this item is all about.
Counsel, absolutely. Chief counsel? Of all those companies? Unlikely.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
This is disgusting. The Bush administration and other corrupt politicans keep pushing for RFID chips in IDs that can be easily read by a home-made device. Even stores can build hidden RFID receivers to detect who and when is entering their stores. Corporations and criminals can easily develop profiles for targeted advertisment and ID theft. Not only that but if enough buildings have these receivers, anyone with enough access can track your every step and profile your life. What's scary is that the supporting politicians refuse to admit their wrong doing and continue to rally behind this insecure mode of identification and not to mention, an invasion of privacy.
To be fair though, in those cases it was more about Safety (translate Liability) as they could heavily damage road safety and Law Enforcement's ability to police it. Its like how in most fiction Ive seen, they always misquote the proportions of charcoal, sulfur, and salt peter that go into gunpowder, so the young and/or stupid won't go out and blow off fingers.
I've seen variations on that a number of times, like when they've made carefully obscured the key ingredients for making nitrocellulose. Sometimes they make a joke of it: "Mythbusters brand Blur!", other times they just don't talk about it.
The one I've always wondered about was when they cracked the thumbprint lock. They carefully mentioned that they had omitted one crucial step. I wonder who was responsible for that?
...laura
"Again? That trick never works."
You can mod it off-topic if you like, but I prefer discussion here than YouTube. So, HOLY CRAP what the heck was up with that crazy ranting New York pizza lady they cut off at the end of that clip? Man, ask a question and sit down.
ok, adam was really testing the myth that if you work for corporate america and speak out at defcon, a conference of random geeks, that you will terrify the corporate powers to be, causing them to twist your arm and issue denials of anything you've said, no matter how lame, or crazy.
While Adam didn't actually blow up anything like a true myth episode, I think we have to say "plausible" for the myth. We didn't get a photo of adam in the armlock, so we can't say "confirmed".
the SCA beat him up with rattan swords.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Most /. USA readers probably don't realise that Mythbusters was conceived and is produced by an Australian company Beyond Productions, who among many other shows used to produce a geek show Beyond 2000, (which was spun out of an ABC program towards 2000)
Don't expect Mythbusters to tackle anything controversial. They claim on their website to wipe anything from their message board to do with 9-11. A shame because there are a few things I'd love them to test like
- Making multi minute phone calls from 30k ft with 2001 phone tech and no onboard plane phones (I already know its not possible, but would love to see them try)
- Getting a 767 sim and attempt to fly the same path as pentagon plane (Including being in ground effect for 1km before hitting the building), but only having light plane real world experience. (Note NTSB has a video of the flight data recorder (which strangely has a different approach path to the physical evidence.. maybe they could try both))
But don't hold your breath.
46137
The net result of all this furor over this subject: Solidly reinforces my initial aversion towards so-called "smart" credit cards/payment devices, to the point where I will never consider using one. If they were smart about it, they'd not only let them do the show, but learn from what they discovered in the process and fix the damned technology!
I worked in the smartcard industry 9-15 years ago. Any technology that uses the terms "we can't tell you how we implement 3DES in our cards for obvious reasons" has a lot to hide.
(S)he seems to be missing, I can't find any other explanation for "the show was unable to produce s show about previously know RFID vulnerabilities"...
While it is hard to say what the full story is, is it THAT hard to believe that Adam (who, let us face it, can be kinda flakey) simply got his story wrong or got wrapped up in the story-telling?
The hand that feeds you is the hand that enslaves you.
Bite it hard!
>Discovery didn't make the decision, they just presented the choice to the production company to either not produce the show, or take a long walk off a short pier.
Beyond Productions is an independent Australian company and sells sometimes different versions to the UK and other countries (which also don't have the 'don't try this at home' stuff and where you can say things like 'sperm' on TV), they could very well do it in this case as well.
Different network, same torrent.
How about instead of looking into the vulnerabilities they have a show on blowing RFID tags up. Or dropping them from a crane. Or perhaps strapping lots of them to a plane and taxiing around while "testing" their effects on the instruments?
No on second thoughts lets just stick with blowing them up! That's what Mythbusters do best.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Keep in mind these are the ASSH_LES that call financially responsible persons that pay off their entire balance every month "deadbeats."
I can see it happening if the Companies in question wanted underline how serious the issue is. Nothing says "we're gonna stomp you" better than saying "This is George, he's chief legal counsel for my Company. Now what were you saying?"
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
Really? You've never seen a MasterCard with PayPass? My bank replaced my old debit card with one over two years ago.
Granted, the only place I've seen that accepted PayPass was at a Sheetz, and it didn't seem to work. But they're definitely out there.
I've watched Mythbusters only 5 or so times, but at least once they busted a myth that they should not have.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Right, and Fox did not cancel Futurama or Arrested Development, they just quit ordering more episodes. Semantics.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
He's one of the main faces of the show, so maybe they're putting him up to handle various PR as well. However, it's quite likely he's not involved in the everyday minutiae of the operation of the show. That's what staff is for. But he's the face everyone sees and they needed a press release, so they stick some notes in his hand and tells him to run with it. This is the only real possibility I can see. There's not much point in telling bold fabrications that can easily be debunked. Heck, debunking is his line of work. He really should have known better. :)
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Honestly, Mythbusters is NOT scientific. They've got a pretty arrogant attitude, if we can't do it, then no one can. So why are you suprised they're starting to believe they're own press releases, as they say, and making wildly inaccurate and bs type comments then have to retract them.
ooooh!!
I know the answer! I know the answer!
'O'
now what did I win?
Why not? They're using caricature or cartoon whenever they describe a myth now.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
Adam "retracted" his previous statement by clarifying that the production company Beyond Productions assumed responsibility for this decision (does it ever happen any other way?), and declaring the details behind this episode were even worse than the short version he provided. Wow I guess that changes everything!
It reminds me of another, somewhat similar story. In the city of Fortaleza, a local newspaper once declared that half the councilmen were disonest. However, due to the strong political reaction (and a number of threats), the same newspaper decided to "step back" the following day, by declaring that half the councilmen were honest. (I'm not making this up, this event was reported by journalist Stanislaw Ponte Preta (1923-1968) who became famous for collecting such bizarre stories in Brazil).
it's just like newsies on a conference call. whatever they hear is fair game. if a bunch of lawyers from the ivory tower, not the courtroom, want to dot Is and cross Ts on the call, they have released information without privilege.
anybody can compromise information and put it into the public arena. but once it's out, don't try and get it back. you've already used the first amendment to publish, and there is no constitutional "oops, be a good boy" clause.
air the show.
if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
Talk about confirming and bolstering Adam's story. Don't the marketing/PR and legal teams at any major corporation actually talk to one another before someone strong-arms a popular personality?
"Flooding the room" is something I've seen done frequently when there's conflict, especially when it's a legal one. Just last week, I was in a nonsense meeting called for someone else's pissing match. One of the jackasses involved -- mind you, there were jackasses on both sides, hence the pissing match -- pulled representatives from 12, yes a dozen, different companies. Our guy pulled in four. There were literally no fewer than 30 people in the room for a technical issue so small that me and one other guy could have knocked it out in a few hours.
When ego meets bureaucracy, even minor issues can explode into mushroom cloud clusterfraks. Hell, I once walked into a meeting with my kid's school and found the principal had stacked the room with 15 people from all over the district. She still lost, of course, but bureaucrats, lawyers and other ruminants feel safety in numbers.
I believe in Adam Savage.
They are quite replaceable. Have you heard of Regis Philbin or Drew Carry?
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
A 'decision' made under duress isn't really a 'choice'. For that matter, marketing weasels and spin-jockeys are even less swayed by reality or facts, much less the truth...
the word is out, you know. we all now know about the bullying of mythbusters by visa et all.
tell me, what would visa et al would do, if we, the people, the audience, decided to start using cards that were not employing bullying lawyers ?
tell me how they would cope with that.
let me tell you, and spare you the effort - i am the consumer. i am one of 'the people'. i have the power, and they dont have no shit.
such filthy, despicable lawyer bullying moves are only possible if the public doesnt learn what you did. in this case, public did learn.
Read radical news here
explain to me, why there was NO remainder of anything a passenger plane crash leaves in a crash site, and there were NO bodies, passenger belongings, pieces of bodies, ANYTHING but fairly intact TWO bodies in the scene. tell me where the hell did the 767's huge tail has vanished. tell me where did its 2 two huge engines go. tell me why the hell that pentagon yard was SO neat and tidy despite a freaking passenger liner has crashed on it SO bad that neither its engines nor its tail is anywhere to be seen. tell me how the hell a soft passenger liner was able to punch neat holes in 3 cocentric circles of pentagon and which part did that. the electronic equipment in the nose ? the pilot cabin ? the toilet ?
please, spare the bullshit. as if the world has never seen a passenger liner crash.
Read radical news here
All credit cards come from large corporations. I imagine that the number of them without bullying layers (is that a redundant adjective there?) is vanishingly small.
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
...and people in China have freedom of speech, too. After all they're free to say everything they want to, right? There might be consequences, but they still are still able to say whatever they want to.
Reality doesn't work that way. When somebody holds a gun to your head (literally or metaphorically) and informs you (explicitely or implicitely) that they'll pull the trigger when you make the wrong choice, you do not ACTUALLY have a choice.
Peter Griffin: [after "Family Guy" returns to Fox with new episodes, after a few years off the air] Everybody, I got bad news. We've been canceled.
Lois Griffin: Oh, no! Peter, how could they do that?
Peter Griffin: Well, unfortunately, Lois, there's just no more room on the schedule. We've just got to accept the fact that Fox has to make room for terrific shows, like "Dark Angel", "Titus", "Undeclared", "Action", "That '80s Show", "Wonder Falls", "Fastlane", "Andy Richter Controls the Universe", "Skin", "Girls Club", "Cracking Up", "The Pitts", "Firefly", "Get Real", "Freaky Links", "Wanda at Large", "Costello", "The Lone Gunmen", "A Minute with Stan Hooper", "Normal, Ohio", "Pasadena", "Harsh Realm", "Keen Eddie", "The Street", "American Embassy", "Cedric the Entertainer", "The Tick", "Louie", and "Greg the Bunny".
Lois Griffin: Is there no hope?
Peter Griffin: Well, I suppose if all those shows go down the tubes, we might have a shot.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
i thought it was awesome, until i lost my keys on a bike ride and some tool promptly spent $200 at the gas station. and i mean PROMPTLY, the transactions all happened while it was still out riding. anyway, i was put off by it at that point. the concept that possession of that little stick means verification of identity is kinda scary. i mean, i have ASK FOR ID on the back of my credit/debit cards and usually give a little "you gonna read the back" if they forget. with the speedpay/RFID model, they never see the card, i just wave it like a magic money wand. RFID has lots of great uses, but i don't really want my money tied to it...
So Adam rejected reality and substituted his own?
Serving your airship needs since 1995.
Adam: Don't do anything like piss off the credit card companies at home.
Jamie: EVER!!
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
I decided to send an email to the production company, but not to attack them outright. SO, in the interest of transparency, and maybe just a reason to publish a stark-raving mad rant on a Friday morning, I give you the entirety of my response:
To whom it may concern,
This is regarding the treatment of a story you (Beyond Productions) were to air via Discovery Channel about RFID security holes. I just want to say how upset I am at your inability to rationalize and present data that is clearly in the public sphere of available knowledge. For years, I've been extolling the dangers of RFID-based technology and its many abuse vectors. A recent gagging of MIT students by a state judge in the USA, regarding such SmartCard vulnerabilities, was similarly despicable and unwarranted.
Just as your production company has been scared into submission by outside interests, many other objective reporters have had to curtail their disclosure of certain information in a transparent manner. Clearly, manufacturers of RFID technology are scared because they have understood the inherent vulnerabilities since its inception. I am dismayed that you, the production company, was the one found to have backed down from this important angle. I could understand such a non-ethical, corporate decision from the broadcasting company, Discovery Channel, as they must please their advertisers --many, of whom may be deploying this technology. However, as a production company staying your own tongue, I am unsettled with the chilling effect your submissiveness poses to other producers of objective content.
What's even worse about this debacle is Adam Savage knowingly lied via public announcement at a conference or you, Beyond Productions, lied to Adam seriously reducing Mythbusters' credibility to report objectively. It's now become a game of pointing fingers at each other with no company taking the initiative to come clean and say what really happened. But it doesn't take a genius to see what really happened when you look at the economics of the situation. Beyond Productions is the dog that was told to lie down or get beat by.... Discovery Channel who was told to lie down by credit companies' lawyers or else... and Texas Instruments is now just trying to divert flack from objectionable public opinion so they don't look like the bad guys. No matter what Adam Savage says to the public anymore, most intelligent people know it was advertisers that threatened Discovery. Discovery threatens Beyond, and in the end, as they say, "Sh*t rolls downhill." I feel sorry for Adam because he probably wanted to tell the truth.
I'll not look at your show, Mythbusters, in the same light anymore. It's too bad that you didn't proceed with the story and just publish it on the internet. If your company is restricted from that via a contract with Discovery, then you signed a poor deal. The internet is where the real popularity ratings exist. You would be wise to see what ire this action has raised on the internet. And, on a related note regarding your website's design, structure, and content; damn. Fix that because.... Can you say late 1990s? Damn....
Sincerely,
Name Ommitted from Slashdot post