Slashdot Mirror
The Electronic Bastille
smooth wombat writes "Imagine a database whose aim is to centralize and analyze data on people aged 13 or above who are active in politics or labor unions, who play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role, or who are 'likely to breach public order.' At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database. Specifically, France. Now, with the summer break over and as the people of France return to work, there is a small but growing movement to storm this electronic Bastille. Michel Pezet, a lawyer and former member of a body charged with protecting French citizens from electronic prying, had this to say about this new data-gathering law: 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy. There is nothing in the decree that sets limits or a framework. Whether the database is used with or without moderation depends only on orders from up high. The electronic Bastille is upon us.'"
I'd be shocked if other Western governments, or at least their security services, didn't do something similar. The CIA and MI5 have been known to do this sort of thing in the past, especially during WWII and the cold war. At least the French know about theirs.
In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted. Many suspect this is why there were so many accusations of breaches of public order at this year's Notting Hill; the Met wanted the DNA of black Londoners.
All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
If they were the US, they'd just license it from Google.
(If they were the UK, they'd probably license it from Microsoft.)
http://rocknerd.co.uk
To be honest if there's one country I'd expect to actually get out of their chairs and protest in the streets over this, it's the french.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Well, they wouldn't necessarily get out of their chairs in protest, but they might raise a glass from a seated position in a sidewalk cafe in protest.
If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
People who are "active in politics... play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role... 'likely to breach public order.'"?
So that would be a database of politicians, CEOs and cult leaders then? So long as this database is freely accessible to all on the net, it sounds like a great idea to me.
In addition to the person who is concidered to possibly being a threat the database will contain all relatives and people who contact with the person except for in a one-time only type relationship.
The information stored will contain "civil status and occupation; physical addresses, phone numbers, email addresses; physical characteristics, photographs and behaviour; identity papers; car plate numbers; fiscal and patrimonial information; moves and legal history"
For years now the UK has been leader in the "Western Nation Most Likely To Become A Police State" league, and the French just can't bear to be beaten by us at anything, so in one daring move they've grabbed the crown from us. Vive la France!
In fact, French police already had such files for decades (aka "le fichier des RG", the file of the inside information gathering service), but they were "secret", and it was impossible for people to know exactly what kind of information was recorded.
Then, are files of this kind of files usefull or good for Democracies ... ? usefull maybe (You never watch The Experts or NCIS ? ;) . Good ? I dont know (1984, Equilibrium, ... what else ?)
Maybe they should start using one of these again? Maybe that would convince the politicians to think again.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
You know what AC? /me puts arm round AC's shoulders like a father explaining something to an over-enthusiastic, ignorant son.
If any of your ancestors are English, there's a good chance that you are French, or have some French blood running through your veins.
Ever heard of the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Where those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' sucessfully invaded England. Or the Hundred Years War, where the Frenchmen who originally invaded England got nostalgic for their old lands, decided the food in England was crap anyway, and re-invaded France.
There is a reason why around 1,600 words in the English language are French.
Ever heard of Napolean? The Frenchman that successfully invaded most of Europe, he did better against the Russians than other Westerners ever have. He, and his armies, successfully invaded Russia and occupied Moscow. We had to wait until the Soviet Union collapsed from the inside.
Here's a fun fact, these are all the French words in your post:
The reason they're there is because the French aren't as shit at fighting as you'd like to think. And since it seems that you're a Yank, you should remember who got your country freedom from the British Empire: Napoleon. Imagine, if it weren't for him, the US might have ended up like Canada.
Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.
Public order is antithetical to democracy. Democracy can only be effective in a system where some social disorder is present.
Sounds like wikipedia :-)
Fleur de Sel
Dear World,
Please stop giving our government these ideas.
Thanks,
USA
I live in the UK where we don't stand for this kind of nonsense.
Nah, didn't think so.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
Wow France finally has facebook...good for them.
Nos trois principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.
Je m'excuse, nos quatre principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, et d'etre surveille.
Entre nos principes sont...
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
"They don't care that Their gouvernement are watching theim." According to the French Government, 50% of the people that are employed in France, are employed by the government. This means they are watching themselves.
Nope, french people (I am one) are more willing to strike for salaries, work week duration, educational strategic changes, be paid for 15 month per year (in the Lyon public transport company) than protesting against our world record taxes on gasoline (> 80% +19.6% VAT !!!), or against our entire population filled into a database we don't know wich it will be used for.
That's it : we know, but consequences are obscure for everybody (specialized lawyers included) who don't work in government.
Moreover, the most frightening is the variety of contents in this electronic bastille :
- Political or syndical association
- Sexual orientation
- Drug abuse reports
- DNA footprint
- fingerprints
- pictures
- lot of other various data minded by police services
Of course, honest people her will say : we dont't care, we have nothing to reproach, they sucks and are totally inconscient of damage ths kind of database causes to liberty and democraty.
Unlike in the US (from our froggies point of view), here police violence and abuses is some kind of normal, and is never revealed by journalists (they work for gov too), and there are case everydays that passes.
If you were thinking the France is still a democraty, you're totally wrong !!! we are no more than other western countries, and by some ways we tend to be like eastern country called Russia.
Et uniformes rouges interessants
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
I'm surprised to see US and UK people make fun comments about the French over this. US and UK governments aren't exactly known for managing their own records on their citizens with much care either.
The UK has lost, what, 400.000 personal records on it's citizens?
The US has had terrorist lists made, leaked to the press, remade, leaked again..
It's not like France is in this trade alone. Privacy is at stake in every country, including your own. Or what else do you think the War on Terror realy is, other than building databases. The only new thing here, which is truely shocking, is that the system is about minors, who have practically no means to exercise pressure on a governmental system.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Beats raising the remote from a seated position on the couch, I'd say.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The way I see it surveillance and universal identity databases etc are inevitable products of modern technology coupled with human nature. It isn't something we can just close the door on and expect the result to be that such things will simply go away.
It seems more like a choice between acknowledging that we WILL be surveilled, and that there WILL be such databases or sticking our heads in the sand and denying it. Thus two potential situations can arise. Either the surveillance and data acquisition are surreptitious, covert, and beyond the supervision of the body politic, or they are overt and can be subject to certain oversight and control.
I would also observe that there are undeniable practical benefits which could be realized by such technologies. Many of these benefits will not be fully realized if they exist in secret and can thus be put to only a limited set of uses. If they are acknowledged and in the open, subject to regulation and control, and available for certain legitimate uses then we may be able to reap great benefits while mitigating the most serious dangers.
The wise man understands that progress is made in the nature and structure of society, not that of the world. Therefore all progress depends on the wise ;)
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Your nickname remembered me a much more interesting sport...
But I am le tired...
That would be the Parisians. But the French fishermen would blockade the harbours, the French truckers would blockade the ferry ports and oil refineries, while the French farmers will blockade strategic locations such as the trains, the tunnels, and Disneyland.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
"You do realize that Russia is a democracy, right?"
Yes, and Putin is no longer in charge.
Now that we've got that out of the way, howsabout we discuss this bargain-priced bridge I'm selling? :-)
-Jeff
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
Where did you get your statistics ? The public sector employs a lot of people in France but not 50%. A comprehensive citizen watch organisation puts the figure at 26%, i.e. 7 million people. This includes ordinary civil servants working for one part or another of government, but also scientific researchers, teachers, and employees of public companies like Electricite de France, the Parisian Metro, and so on.