Slashdot Mirror
The Electronic Bastille
smooth wombat writes "Imagine a database whose aim is to centralize and analyze data on people aged 13 or above who are active in politics or labor unions, who play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role, or who are 'likely to breach public order.' At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database. Specifically, France. Now, with the summer break over and as the people of France return to work, there is a small but growing movement to storm this electronic Bastille. Michel Pezet, a lawyer and former member of a body charged with protecting French citizens from electronic prying, had this to say about this new data-gathering law: 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy. There is nothing in the decree that sets limits or a framework. Whether the database is used with or without moderation depends only on orders from up high. The electronic Bastille is upon us.'"
I'm not trying to defend my actions; but I honestly don't feel I was in the wrong here. After my mother posted bail ($35,000!) I have a few months before any more tough shit happens, and my public defender said I can talk about it as long as I change the names.
Anywho, I was driving down 495 to Providence when an Asian-American Woman driver cut me off. Now, I'm not racist, but my blood did boil a tad when I saw exactly what kind of person it was. Like fulfilling a stereotype that is obviously wrong, but I was angry that they fulfilled the stereotype. I wasn't seeing red or anything but I was deffinitely not happy.
I blame my father. He taught me the code of Massachusetts drivers: 1. Defend your honor. This means tailing those flip you off, act like an asshole, etc. 2. Drive fast. This is vital and ensures you get to your location quick. 3. NEVER let someone cut you off.
Naturally the way I was raised had an immediate affect on this greivous error by the Asian-American lady driver. I turned on Deffcon 3 and tailed them in the standard way; aka getting right on their ass and flashing my brights on-off for 30 or 45 seconds. This is where things go wrong.
The car SLAMMED ON IT'S BRAKES. I am not kidding. I swerved to the right and just barely avoided contact. The driver then sped off and THREW A COFFEE CUP OUT THE WINDOW. It didn't come near my car but I know the intent, and I'm pretty sure it will aid in my upcoming defense trial.
Anywho, I bring it up to Deffcon 5. I slam the gas and pass the woman, then cut her off. I then throw the car in neutral so I slow down without break lights, ensuring they have no warning. The lady hits the back of my car and her airbag deploys. Apparantly she broke both her wrists and fractured a rib, but her airbag naturally saved her life.
I keep driving because my car is fine and I was certain I did not have the obligation to stop. 10 or so miles later I'm pulled over by the Rhode Island state tropper and cuffed, and they tell me several other drivers witnessed the whole thing and I'm screwed. They take me to the station, mugshots, pictures, some bullshit reporter for some local daily even asked me a few questions and I basically told him to fuck off. They try to interrorgate me and I keep my mouth shut, even using that famous Goodfellas line and saying "what, you gonna bing bang boom me?" and moved my arms around, but they didn't laugh (lol). A few hours later my mom picks me up and says "you're moving with your aunti and uncle in bel air" I whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said "fresh" and had dice in the mirror. If anything I could say that this cab was rare, but I thought now forget it, yo home to bel-air! I pulled up to a house about seven or eight, And I yelled to the cabby "yo home, smell ya later!". Looked at my kingdom I was finally there, to settle my throne as the prince of bel-air.
How appropriate for the French to be submitting... their personal data, I mean.
My 0.02 cents
I'd be shocked if other Western governments, or at least their security services, didn't do something similar. The CIA and MI5 have been known to do this sort of thing in the past, especially during WWII and the cold war. At least the French know about theirs.
In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted. Many suspect this is why there were so many accusations of breaches of public order at this year's Notting Hill; the Met wanted the DNA of black Londoners.
All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
If they were the US, they'd just license it from Google.
(If they were the UK, they'd probably license it from Microsoft.)
http://rocknerd.co.uk
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The summary is totally misleading. Each and every country has a political police and it is important for establishing public order. The debate in France is not about the need of this database, which is considered obvious since it is a very old one. In fact we speak about it because of a reorganizing of the french police which imply a reorganizing of databases. :sexual orientation and health. The governement says they will be stored exceptionally, but has not succeeded in convincing that it will not be misused. But it is quite unlikeliy that it will be changed, since there is a strong support in the population.
There is a problem because there are two informations which many do not accept to be stored
NWO will screw U all
Leave it to the cheese-eating surrender monkeys to have a problem with a law that so obviously helps in the War on Turr (tm).
Pass the Freedom Fries.
People who are "active in politics... play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role... 'likely to breach public order.'"?
So that would be a database of politicians, CEOs and cult leaders then? So long as this database is freely accessible to all on the net, it sounds like a great idea to me.
In addition to the person who is concidered to possibly being a threat the database will contain all relatives and people who contact with the person except for in a one-time only type relationship.
The information stored will contain "civil status and occupation; physical addresses, phone numbers, email addresses; physical characteristics, photographs and behaviour; identity papers; car plate numbers; fiscal and patrimonial information; moves and legal history"
... I wish it wasnt' so but it is.
OK, let the France-bashing begin! Because we all know that all French are spineless cowards and that this would never happen in, say, the USA or the UK.
For years now the UK has been leader in the "Western Nation Most Likely To Become A Police State" league, and the French just can't bear to be beaten by us at anything, so in one daring move they've grabbed the crown from us. Vive la France!
In fact, French police already had such files for decades (aka "le fichier des RG", the file of the inside information gathering service), but they were "secret", and it was impossible for people to know exactly what kind of information was recorded.
Then, are files of this kind of files usefull or good for Democracies ... ? usefull maybe (You never watch The Experts or NCIS ? ;) . Good ? I dont know (1984, Equilibrium, ... what else ?)
Maybe they should start using one of these again? Maybe that would convince the politicians to think again.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
Public order is antithetical to democracy. Democracy can only be effective in a system where some social disorder is present.
Sounds like wikipedia :-)
Fleur de Sel
Dear World,
Please stop giving our government these ideas.
Thanks,
USA
More power to the database people. This will be one method of controlling those young Islamic thugs who like to terrorize Paris.
Fata viam invenient.
Until some pissed off DBA locks up the database, or some parent names their child a funny name http://xkcd.com/327/ ...
I live in the UK where we don't stand for this kind of nonsense.
You mean like WalMart?
Invoicing, Time Tracking, Reporting
Wow France finally has facebook...good for them.
i believe "edvige" was introduced the 1st of July 2008 and not in 2004, see http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do;jsessionid=952C97B66AAC8C45F624671F93C6A89E.tpdjo07v_2?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000019103207&dateTexte=&oldAction=rechJO (in french).
moreover it does not abrogate or put an amendment to "loi informatique et liberté" (LIL1978). For a digest of the law see http://www.service-public.fr/actualites/00930.html (in french).
the main points are (my own inaccurate translation):
- Article 4: the files cannot be subject to interconnection, aggregation, or any kind of relation with other information systems or files
- the right to access its own file is granted indirectly through CNIL as stated by the LIL1978
-all data are checked and updated on a yearly basis and cannot be kept for more than 5 years
I am not a lawyer nor a jurist. I am not a big fan of this new law, but felt like playing the devil's advocate as TFA and the comments look inaccurate or incomplete. I am not working for the french government either.
it was the worst of dGltZXM= .
nothing new here/there? greed, fear & ego are unprecedented evile's primary weapons. those, along with deception & coercion, helps most of us remain (unwittingly?) dependent on its' life0cidal hired goons' agenda. most of yOUR dwindling resources are being squandered on the 'wars', & continuation of the billionerrors stock markup FraUD/pyramid schemes. nobody ever mentions the real long term costs of those debacles in both life & the notion of prosperity, not to mention the abuse of the consciences of those of us who still have one. see you on the other side of it. the lights are coming up all over now. conspiracy theorists are being vindicated. some might choose a tin umbrella to go with their hats. the fairytail is winding down now. let your conscience be yOUR guide. you can be more helpful than you might have imagined. there are still some choices. if they do not suit you, consider the likely results of continuing to follow the corepirate nazi hypenosys story LIEn, whereas anything of relevance is replaced almost instantly with pr ?firm? scriptdead mindphuking propaganda or 'celebrity' trivia 'foam'. meanwhile; don't forget to get a little more oxygen on yOUR brain, & look up in the sky from time to time, starting early in the day. there's lots going on up there.
http://news.google.com/?ncl=1216734813&hl=en&topic=n
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/opinion/31mon1.html?em&ex=1199336400&en=c4b5414371631707&ei=5087%0A
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/world/29amnesty.html?hp
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/02/nasa.global.warming.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/05/severe.weather.ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/weather/06/02/honore.preparedness/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/01/opinion/01dowd.html?em&ex=1212638400&en=744b7cebc86723e5&ei=5087%0A
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/05/senate.iraq/index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/washington/17contractor.html?hp
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/middleeast/03kurdistan.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080708/cheney_climate.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080805/pl_politico/12308;_ylt=A0wNcxTPdJhILAYAVQms0NUE
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080903/ts_nm/environment_arctic_dc;_ylt=A0wNcwhhcb5It3EBoy2s0NUE
is it time to get real yet? A LOT of energy is being squandered in attempts to keep US in the dark. in the end (give or take a few 1000 years), the creators will prevail (world without end, etc...), as it has always been. the process of gaining yOUR release from the current hostage situation may not be what you might think it is. butt of course, most of US don't know, or care what a precarious/fatal situation we're in. for example; the insidious attempts by the felonious corepirate nazi execrable to block the suns' light, interfering with a requirement (sunlight) for us to stay healthy/alive. it's likely not good for yOUR health/memories 'else they'd be bragging about it? we're intending for the whoreabully deceptive (they'll do ANYTHING for a bit more monIE/power) felons to give up/fail even further, in attempting to control the 'weather', as well as a # of other things/events.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=weather+manipulation&btnG=Search
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=video+cloud+spraying
dictator style micro management has never worked (for very long). it's an illness. tie that with life0cidal aggression & softwar gangster style bullying, & what do we have? a greed/fear/ego based recipe for disaster. meanwhile, you can help to stop the bleeding (loss of life & limb);
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/28/vermont.banning.bush.ap/index.html
the bleeding must be stopped before any healing can begin. jailing a couple of corepirate nazi hired goons would send a clear message to the rest of the world from US. any truthful look at the 'scorecard' would reveal that we are a society in decline/deep doo-doo, despite all of the sc
Please, help us!
Sign the petition against Edvige!
Here
Comparing democratic and free countries like Russia or Zimbabwe to modern totalitarian police states like Great Britain or France or USA?
That's too much even for slashdot!
I'm surprised to see US and UK people make fun comments about the French over this. US and UK governments aren't exactly known for managing their own records on their citizens with much care either.
The UK has lost, what, 400.000 personal records on it's citizens?
The US has had terrorist lists made, leaked to the press, remade, leaked again..
It's not like France is in this trade alone. Privacy is at stake in every country, including your own. Or what else do you think the War on Terror realy is, other than building databases. The only new thing here, which is truely shocking, is that the system is about minors, who have practically no means to exercise pressure on a governmental system.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Just one more example, if we needed one as to how inept the UK government is at major IT projects. Yet again, when it comes to building anything on a grand scale we have to look to our cousins across the channel to get a clue. Our big brother database will be late, over budget and they will end up leaving their assassination list data in a toilet cubicle in Waterloo station.
yes, it is a shame to see such database in mordern country. 1984 from Orwell is so in phase with what happened around the world: impossible to travel without fingerprint scanned in US, medical data monitored in smart card (Carte Vitale, France), and now this database.
:)
you definitively have to read this book (sorry, just in french for now, but maybe there will be english translation):
Le Maitre des Noms (the master of the names) of Josef LADIK.
the name is a pseudo (as stated in the back of the book) and the writer is a prosecutor who definitively seems to know about what it talks! http://www.amazon.fr/ma%C3%AEtre-noms-Josef-Ladik/dp/2754006907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220614013&sr=8-1
have fun and keep flying under the radar
Then you have other activists who don't demonstrate. They write letters, lobby, legal action and do their best to educate the public. The Sierra Club is one of the most effective groups in existence. You'll never hear about them rioting or torching houses or SUV. You'll never hear about them ramming ships. As a result, people with actual power will meet with them on an equal basis and they accomplish their goals peacefully, with dignity, and with the respect of their adversaries. And because of their peaceful actions, the public may actually listen to them. That's not something I can say for the folks out in the street mixing it up with the cops.
Let me ask this: How many environmental protection laws do you think the Sierra Club got passed versus how many that ELF or Greenpeace have?
The way I see it surveillance and universal identity databases etc are inevitable products of modern technology coupled with human nature. It isn't something we can just close the door on and expect the result to be that such things will simply go away.
It seems more like a choice between acknowledging that we WILL be surveilled, and that there WILL be such databases or sticking our heads in the sand and denying it. Thus two potential situations can arise. Either the surveillance and data acquisition are surreptitious, covert, and beyond the supervision of the body politic, or they are overt and can be subject to certain oversight and control.
I would also observe that there are undeniable practical benefits which could be realized by such technologies. Many of these benefits will not be fully realized if they exist in secret and can thus be put to only a limited set of uses. If they are acknowledged and in the open, subject to regulation and control, and available for certain legitimate uses then we may be able to reap great benefits while mitigating the most serious dangers.
The wise man understands that progress is made in the nature and structure of society, not that of the world. Therefore all progress depends on the wise ;)
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
We have something similar in the works, the Child Protection DB, which will gather names and bio data on every child in the UK, to "protect" them from the worst that society has to offer. Yeah, like the scumbag Nu-Labour nutters who are in charge and who seem intent on selling our very identities from birth, to the highest bidder!
One day I hope I will wake up and hear the immortal words...."Welcome to the real world."
Have fun storming the castle.
...the Department of Homeland Security's Terrorist Watch List - which cannot even be accessed by public watchdog groups or many members of Congress?
Or the same Department's ability to tap phone and computer records without a subpoena?
Please excuse me while I take a moment to sweep up the remains of yet another exploded Irony Meter as the French, again, show that they are woefully behind the times and that Americans are still woefully complacent about our privacy and personal rights, especially in light of a speech by a candidate who claims he is for "change" but who has voted in lockstep (goosestep?) with the Bush administration 95% of the time!
I'm not as naive as to think that only France has one of these- one only has to go to the Red Scare to know that the US also puts these together (See also: Do Not Fly lists, Guantanimo Bay, FBI & St. Paul Police raids this past Monday.) I do wonder, however, how long these databases can be compiled before they become unwieldy. Eventually, nearly every database becomes too much of a spider web and needs to be redone.
Next thing you know France will enforce "Newspeak" to be the native language, and begin to attempt to reduce intellectual thought be dumbing down the "Newspeak" language year after year.
Of course there are other "infamous" databases like this...
But this one is almost all-encompassing (question is : how the hell anyone coult manage NOT to be filed in this thing someday, for some dubious reason ???)
And worst thing is : it is supposed to be OFFICIAL and LEGAL !
Stupid people think "1984" was about a "communist" police state.
But "1984" was about ANY KIND of police state even supposedly "democratic" ones.
Ah yes, we can thank the Lib Dems because they have highlighted specific pieces of new legislation since 97 and clearly promised to repeal them completely and unambiguously? Oh wait, surprise, surprise, they haven't done that!
At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation
You do realize that Russia is a democracy, right?
Hey, timothy... Why is this on developers.slashdot.org? It doesn't belong here as it's not to do with software development; it belongs in YRO...
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
So? Install Bastille Linux...
Bush and "right-wing" radio did a 180 cartwheel when Sarkozy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) got into power there. Gone was all of the anti-French diatribe, those liberty fries (as opposed to French Fries), those scoundrels who wouldn't help us "liberate" Kuwait back to its rightful monarchical ruler, etc. Sarkozy gives me the willies. But I agree with other posters here, if there is any country whose people will cause a repeat of the late 18th century popular revolutions, government reforms, and restoration of civil liberties it will be the French.
Back before they dropped most of it.
- TIA
Let me ask this: How many environmental protection laws do you think the Sierra Club got passed versus how many that ELF or Greenpeace have?
The largest mass-arrest in recent Canadian history, the Clayoquot Blockade, was pretty successful. Mind you, it was supported on multiple fronts: mail-outs, lobbying, faxing, press releases, multiple NGO's and coalition-building, etc.
The point is that the commercial logging interests allied with government were using multiple fronts (legal, political, media, police, thugs, covert harassment, vandalism). This is a typical situation where you have political dominance and 1) people are upset by some kind of abuse and 2) those in economic/political power stand to gain a lot... nasty tactics show up on both sides, though the monopoly on violence claimed by the government is usually more dangerous (these days things quickly escalate into the discourse of 'terrorism', even if it's just windows being smashed).
The fact that opponents of political power face thuggery and covert harassment, systemic discrimination, vilification in the media, etc. in addition to obvious crap like 'free speech zones' (hellooo Orwell!), means that anything less than a multiple-front response will be ineffective.
There's no question that without rag-tag protesters chaining themselves to trees and standing on sidewalks with signs, the Sierra Club wouldn't look so moderate or credible. Of course, the Sierra Clubs of the world can't affiliate themselves with the marginal groups, or directly acknowledge their contribution.
Political change is a kind of ecosystem. That's why it's so effective for the police to send in moles and saboteurs; they can mess up the edges of a strategy pretty easily, because protesters at the fringe are pretty unstable people often, so a few provocateurs can push things over the edge and shift the debate (cf. G8 Genoa, Quebec City 2007, etc.).
Complex political process, complex media dynamics = complex campaigns for change.
Damn those pesky terrorists
I was just reading an article about a classified program that the US has been working on since the early 80's that currently uses a database that
"allegedly draws on four smaller databases that, in turn, cull from federal, state, and local "intelligence" reports; print and broadcast media; financial records; "commercial databases"; and unidentified "private sector entities." Additional information comes from a database known as the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment, which generates watch lists from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence for use by airlines, law enforcement, and border posts."
I urge everyone to read this article (as most Slashdot users are probable in this DB!): http://www.radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2008/05/government_surveillance_homeland_security_main_core_01-print.php
works in an environment where the vast majority of 'citizens' are willfully ignorant fools who can't get off their couches let alone carry out their duties as citizens. It cannot...
The fault, my dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.
No matter how you construct it, a population of sheep are only fit to be sheared. If people will not be bothered to go to even the most minimal amount of effort to maintain themselves in a free state, then they will be slaves. And when they are unwilling to all stand up mutually for the rights of every one else's rights as well as their own, then the only inevitable result will be some form of tyranny because the collective authority of society will be exercised by someone, and if it is not everyone collectively then it will be the few, and they will quickly become the privileged.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
This is just an observation, but Barack Obama has amassed an email list of young supporters, and these are precisely the demographics of the people who are talked about in this article.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
The only indiv.right required for democracy to function is freedom of [political] speech. Otherwise, democracy can be frequently hostile to individual rights. In many places, freedom of religion is [would be] rendered moot if democracy (the will of the majority) could have its way unhampered by things like the US and other Constitutions.
In this case, it is a question of the rights of society to peace versus the rights of the individual to privacy. Social rights are highly weighted in France.
Here in the US, we joke rather constantly about France, despite our being friends and allies. Much of it has to do with surrendering during wars and battles (which is really only partially true and don't ever forget the very tough French Resistance) and the consistent electing of week governments. (Actually, the two are related: week governments surrender, but many of the French citizenry are tough, hence the tough Resistance.) I've frequently hypothesized that the French prefer to keep electing week governments to protect their freedoms without having to have yet another revolution. As our own government stomps all over our rights and freedoms here and I see the Brits losing theirs as well, I begin to wonder if the French have been right all along. Our government was built on the premise of a week federal system with strong states' rights and even stronger individual rights, but we keep electing strong (success/failure, peace/war, smart/stupid not related to this) governments and our rights have eroded. How little or how much have the rights of the French eroded? I honestly don't know and would like some input on this.
I hope this comment is well received... I could have moderated instead!
Persecutors will be violated!
French authorities are smart. In order to speed up creating the database, they put up an online petition against it, so people are giving their names themselves :)
Coding etudes
Im without words..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
please stop calling these limited dictatorships democracies ..
in a real and true democracy there can be NO representation in lieu of the people .. for the true meaning of democracy is for the people to be in control of their own lives ..
since the day that corporations gained limited legal liability and the rights of persons .. this has been a private planet .. and the rule of law ceased to have any meaning .. but to enslave the people to the owners of the corporations ..
it is one of the favorite terms used by those in government positions these days .. "The Rule of Law" .. as if it was sacred and divinely inspired .. the only means of keeping the masses from running amok .. and the thing that makes us all equal .. when it is nothing but and abstract human creation .. devised to help enslave the masses .. lest they usurp those of privilege .. our planetary owners ..
and now with the aid of modern technologies .. they can make it so ..
and as far as majority rule goes ..anything less that a 67% majority for the implementation of a trial policy should be unacceptable .. and for a policy to be considered permanent an 85% majority should be required ..
50% + 1 is nothing but a state of conflict and or war .. and along with government mandated and controlled public education .. is the most effective method of enslaving the masses ever devised by the privileged few ..
welcome to the New World Order ..
I'll save 'em some trouble. I'll breach their public order.
People of France! Your gov't. is made up of buttheads who obviously think you're their misfit stepchildren and will continue to to worsten this treatment as time goes by.Take matters into your own hands and change this. Viva la revolution!
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
...you accepted to be tagged with a name, and unique ID numbers.
If you don't want to be in a database, then don't be a walking primary key.
No point in fighting databases. Just build your own.
My name is:
Ken'); DROP TABLE PEOPLE; --
http://xkcd.com/327/
At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database.
Michel Pezet ... had this to say ... : 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy.'
The last time I checked, both Russia and Zimbabwe were democracies. Unreservedly, unarguably democracies (though we might quibble over Zimbabwe after the latest election). Though some of us may disapprove of some of the policies enacted by their popularly elected governments, that is irrelevant. The quotations in the story demonstrate that the propaganda effort to confuse the concepts of democracy and freedom has been wildly successful (see 1984). One might have expected that when democracies violated the rights of their subjects, that would spark people to wake up and see the difference. But no, the false notion of "democracy == freedom" has been so deeply implanted as to become axiomatic, a religious article of faith that cannot be swayed by any evidence. Rather than opening peoples' eyes, the routine, expected behaviour of states that happen to use democracy to legitimize themselves only causes people to whine in disbelief.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.