Slashdot Mirror
The Electronic Bastille
smooth wombat writes "Imagine a database whose aim is to centralize and analyze data on people aged 13 or above who are active in politics or labor unions, who play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role, or who are 'likely to breach public order.' At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database. Specifically, France. Now, with the summer break over and as the people of France return to work, there is a small but growing movement to storm this electronic Bastille. Michel Pezet, a lawyer and former member of a body charged with protecting French citizens from electronic prying, had this to say about this new data-gathering law: 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy. There is nothing in the decree that sets limits or a framework. Whether the database is used with or without moderation depends only on orders from up high. The electronic Bastille is upon us.'"
I'd be shocked if other Western governments, or at least their security services, didn't do something similar. The CIA and MI5 have been known to do this sort of thing in the past, especially during WWII and the cold war. At least the French know about theirs.
In Britain they can take and keep your DNA if you're suspected of a crime, even if you've been acquitted. Many suspect this is why there were so many accusations of breaches of public order at this year's Notting Hill; the Met wanted the DNA of black Londoners.
All intents and purposes. Not intensive purposes.
If they were the US, they'd just license it from Google.
(If they were the UK, they'd probably license it from Microsoft.)
http://rocknerd.co.uk
To be honest if there's one country I'd expect to actually get out of their chairs and protest in the streets over this, it's the french.
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
political activities and friends as well. Plus a physical description that will not forget skin color. People also complain that 13 is a low age to be inside an intelligence gathering database.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Well, they wouldn't necessarily get out of their chairs in protest, but they might raise a glass from a seated position in a sidewalk cafe in protest.
If you don't know what you're doing, you can't make mistakes.
People who are "active in politics... play a significant institutional, economic, social or religious role... 'likely to breach public order.'"?
So that would be a database of politicians, CEOs and cult leaders then? So long as this database is freely accessible to all on the net, it sounds like a great idea to me.
What does Hulk Hogan have to do with anything?
In addition to the person who is concidered to possibly being a threat the database will contain all relatives and people who contact with the person except for in a one-time only type relationship.
The information stored will contain "civil status and occupation; physical addresses, phone numbers, email addresses; physical characteristics, photographs and behaviour; identity papers; car plate numbers; fiscal and patrimonial information; moves and legal history"
... I wish it wasnt' so but it is.
For years now the UK has been leader in the "Western Nation Most Likely To Become A Police State" league, and the French just can't bear to be beaten by us at anything, so in one daring move they've grabbed the crown from us. Vive la France!
In fact, French police already had such files for decades (aka "le fichier des RG", the file of the inside information gathering service), but they were "secret", and it was impossible for people to know exactly what kind of information was recorded.
Then, are files of this kind of files usefull or good for Democracies ... ? usefull maybe (You never watch The Experts or NCIS ? ;) . Good ? I dont know (1984, Equilibrium, ... what else ?)
Maybe they should start using one of these again? Maybe that would convince the politicians to think again.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing"
You know what AC? /me puts arm round AC's shoulders like a father explaining something to an over-enthusiastic, ignorant son.
If any of your ancestors are English, there's a good chance that you are French, or have some French blood running through your veins.
Ever heard of the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Where those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' sucessfully invaded England. Or the Hundred Years War, where the Frenchmen who originally invaded England got nostalgic for their old lands, decided the food in England was crap anyway, and re-invaded France.
There is a reason why around 1,600 words in the English language are French.
Ever heard of Napolean? The Frenchman that successfully invaded most of Europe, he did better against the Russians than other Westerners ever have. He, and his armies, successfully invaded Russia and occupied Moscow. We had to wait until the Soviet Union collapsed from the inside.
Here's a fun fact, these are all the French words in your post:
The reason they're there is because the French aren't as shit at fighting as you'd like to think. And since it seems that you're a Yank, you should remember who got your country freedom from the British Empire: Napoleon. Imagine, if it weren't for him, the US might have ended up like Canada.
Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.
Public order is antithetical to democracy. Democracy can only be effective in a system where some social disorder is present.
Sounds like wikipedia :-)
Fleur de Sel
Dear World,
Please stop giving our government these ideas.
Thanks,
USA
Maybe it's some kind of David Lynch fan-fiction or possibly he's just taking his pills in the wrong order...
I live in the UK where we don't stand for this kind of nonsense.
Nah, didn't think so.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
You mean like WalMart?
Invoicing, Time Tracking, Reporting
Wow France finally has facebook...good for them.
Nos trois principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite.
Je m'excuse, nos quatre principes sont Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, et d'etre surveille.
Entre nos principes sont...
One swallow does not a fellatrix make
You make valid points (I hate the constant cheese-eating-surrender-monkey jokes whenever the French are mentioned). But didn't you think that perhaps the GP was doing a parody of knee-jerk American patriotism, and not serious?
========
CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
i believe "edvige" was introduced the 1st of July 2008 and not in 2004, see http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do;jsessionid=952C97B66AAC8C45F624671F93C6A89E.tpdjo07v_2?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000019103207&dateTexte=&oldAction=rechJO (in french).
moreover it does not abrogate or put an amendment to "loi informatique et liberté" (LIL1978). For a digest of the law see http://www.service-public.fr/actualites/00930.html (in french).
the main points are (my own inaccurate translation):
- Article 4: the files cannot be subject to interconnection, aggregation, or any kind of relation with other information systems or files
- the right to access its own file is granted indirectly through CNIL as stated by the LIL1978
-all data are checked and updated on a yearly basis and cannot be kept for more than 5 years
I am not a lawyer nor a jurist. I am not a big fan of this new law, but felt like playing the devil's advocate as TFA and the comments look inaccurate or incomplete. I am not working for the french government either.
Magnus Magnusson always used to say that "law" was a eord we got from the Vikings.
"They don't care that Their gouvernement are watching theim." According to the French Government, 50% of the people that are employed in France, are employed by the government. This means they are watching themselves.
I normally don't respond to ACs but I feel the need here
Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.
I live an hour south of Washington DC and despite our proximity to the international culture there, I find an incredible number of people here who share his outlook. There is a really good chance he was not being sarcastic.
But since he did not have the balls to post as a real /. member, we may never know.
On the other hand, despite your excellent and informative points, it looks like you could use some balls yourself.
How amazed would you be to suddenly find that you just forgot what I wrote and you needed to reread my post.... again.
Nope, french people (I am one) are more willing to strike for salaries, work week duration, educational strategic changes, be paid for 15 month per year (in the Lyon public transport company) than protesting against our world record taxes on gasoline (> 80% +19.6% VAT !!!), or against our entire population filled into a database we don't know wich it will be used for.
That's it : we know, but consequences are obscure for everybody (specialized lawyers included) who don't work in government.
Moreover, the most frightening is the variety of contents in this electronic bastille :
- Political or syndical association
- Sexual orientation
- Drug abuse reports
- DNA footprint
- fingerprints
- pictures
- lot of other various data minded by police services
Of course, honest people her will say : we dont't care, we have nothing to reproach, they sucks and are totally inconscient of damage ths kind of database causes to liberty and democraty.
Unlike in the US (from our froggies point of view), here police violence and abuses is some kind of normal, and is never revealed by journalists (they work for gov too), and there are case everydays that passes.
If you were thinking the France is still a democraty, you're totally wrong !!! we are no more than other western countries, and by some ways we tend to be like eastern country called Russia.
Et uniformes rouges interessants
A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
Napoleon wasn't French. He was Corsican. He also completely changed traditional warfare. And, ummm, keep his "successfully invading Moscow" in context. IT WAS WINTER. IN RUSSIA. Not bright - and he followed the same trail going home that he took to Russia, which was "scorched earth" - had he taken a different route home, his armies may have survived through Waterloo - that was the beginning of the end for him.
And the Norman conquest is about the only victory that the French can claim on their own, and that was almost 1000 years ago.
And I think that it's safe to say that NO ONE really won the Hundred Years' War, cause they were all too stupid to give it up.
America DOES owe a debt of gratitude to the French for during the American Revolution (which was more about the French getting at the Brits than anything else), where they played a critical part in helping us gain our freedom...and then promptly screwed up in their over-zealousness in their own version of the French Revolution.
By the way, I'm part cajun (see the name). We're the ones that had the good sense to leave both France AND Canada.
I'm surprised to see US and UK people make fun comments about the French over this. US and UK governments aren't exactly known for managing their own records on their citizens with much care either.
The UK has lost, what, 400.000 personal records on it's citizens?
The US has had terrorist lists made, leaked to the press, remade, leaked again..
It's not like France is in this trade alone. Privacy is at stake in every country, including your own. Or what else do you think the War on Terror realy is, other than building databases. The only new thing here, which is truely shocking, is that the system is about minors, who have practically no means to exercise pressure on a governmental system.
With great power comes great electricity bills.
Just one more example, if we needed one as to how inept the UK government is at major IT projects. Yet again, when it comes to building anything on a grand scale we have to look to our cousins across the channel to get a clue. Our big brother database will be late, over budget and they will end up leaving their assassination list data in a toilet cubicle in Waterloo station.
yes, it is a shame to see such database in mordern country. 1984 from Orwell is so in phase with what happened around the world: impossible to travel without fingerprint scanned in US, medical data monitored in smart card (Carte Vitale, France), and now this database.
:)
you definitively have to read this book (sorry, just in french for now, but maybe there will be english translation):
Le Maitre des Noms (the master of the names) of Josef LADIK.
the name is a pseudo (as stated in the back of the book) and the writer is a prosecutor who definitively seems to know about what it talks! http://www.amazon.fr/ma%C3%AEtre-noms-Josef-Ladik/dp/2754006907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220614013&sr=8-1
have fun and keep flying under the radar
Beats raising the remote from a seated position on the couch, I'd say.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Yup, protesting is our national sport :)
[...] (I hate the constant cheese-eating-surrender-monkey jokes whenever the French are mentioned). [...]
Thank you for that. Those jokes are getting really old.
Then you have other activists who don't demonstrate. They write letters, lobby, legal action and do their best to educate the public. The Sierra Club is one of the most effective groups in existence. You'll never hear about them rioting or torching houses or SUV. You'll never hear about them ramming ships. As a result, people with actual power will meet with them on an equal basis and they accomplish their goals peacefully, with dignity, and with the respect of their adversaries. And because of their peaceful actions, the public may actually listen to them. That's not something I can say for the folks out in the street mixing it up with the cops.
Let me ask this: How many environmental protection laws do you think the Sierra Club got passed versus how many that ELF or Greenpeace have?
Not good enough, time to use the guillotines, again...
>Napoleon wasn't French. He was Corsican.
And where is Corsica ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Corsica#Sale_and_annexation_to_France
>And the Norman conquest is about the only victory that the French can claim on their own, and that was almost 1000 years ago.
Quite hard to be a civilisation spanning millennia without any victory :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_France
The way I see it surveillance and universal identity databases etc are inevitable products of modern technology coupled with human nature. It isn't something we can just close the door on and expect the result to be that such things will simply go away.
It seems more like a choice between acknowledging that we WILL be surveilled, and that there WILL be such databases or sticking our heads in the sand and denying it. Thus two potential situations can arise. Either the surveillance and data acquisition are surreptitious, covert, and beyond the supervision of the body politic, or they are overt and can be subject to certain oversight and control.
I would also observe that there are undeniable practical benefits which could be realized by such technologies. Many of these benefits will not be fully realized if they exist in secret and can thus be put to only a limited set of uses. If they are acknowledged and in the open, subject to regulation and control, and available for certain legitimate uses then we may be able to reap great benefits while mitigating the most serious dangers.
The wise man understands that progress is made in the nature and structure of society, not that of the world. Therefore all progress depends on the wise ;)
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Disclaimer: yeah I know you're being sarcastic, but some people actually believe that bullshit.
I think you might've missed that important bit.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
Your nickname remembered me a much more interesting sport...
Have fun storming the castle.
He can hardly be called "French" as Corsica was sold in 1764 and he was born in 1769. Get off it. He's not French. And he's about all the French can claim. The wikipedia article practically proves my point - there were no significant purely French victories throughout that period.
You sure the petition isn't being run by Edvige themselves to help sign up demonstrators?
http://xkcd.com/250/
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
I'm not as naive as to think that only France has one of these- one only has to go to the Red Scare to know that the US also puts these together (See also: Do Not Fly lists, Guantanimo Bay, FBI & St. Paul Police raids this past Monday.) I do wonder, however, how long these databases can be compiled before they become unwieldy. Eventually, nearly every database becomes too much of a spider web and needs to be redone.
Ever heard of the Battle of Hastings in 1066? Where those 'cheese-eating surrender monkeys' sucessfully invaded England
Technically, the invasion of Britain in 1066 was by Normans - Norse Men, who had previously invaded France. This presents some translation problems, since the French Normans are closer to the English Vikings. Asterix and the Normans is one example of this being incorrectly translated. The correct translation would be Asterix and the Vikings (this title was used in the film adaptation), since the term Normans in English is only used to refer to the Vikings who settled in Normandy, while in French it refers to both. The Vikings invaded both northern Gaul and Britain, and settled in both. Normandy was a separate country from the rest of France, and remained part of Britain after Hastings. We eventually lost it to the French largely as a result of a short run of incredibly incompetent monarchs bankrupting the country.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Well I didn't expect a kind of French Inquisition.
Next thing you know France will enforce "Newspeak" to be the native language, and begin to attempt to reduce intellectual thought be dumbing down the "Newspeak" language year after year.
But I am le tired...
The DNA storage aspect is kind of interesting --- consider a world in which everyone's DNA is catalogued --- now consider being a criminal in such a world --- one would have to take the same sort of precautions people once used against witchcraft (ensuring that one didn't allow anyone else access to hair, fingernails, blood &c.) --- or imagine being a revolutionary against a government w/ such information: ...In the course of a firefight, a revolutionary is wounded so badly that he bleeds through some garment specifically designed to soak up blood and prevent it from dropping anywhere...
``I've been blooded!''
``Sorry to hear that,'' his cell leader replies, ``you know the drill, you're rear guard and don't get on the transport --- try to take as many of them with you as you can. Got any grenades left?''
``No, I'm low on ammunition too.''
``Okay, everybody pass any clips you can spare to the blooded guy, here's my last grenade, you know what to do with it. Let's move out!''
At the pick up point the blooded guy finds a hiding place, digs a small hole, pulls the pin from a grenade, places it in the hole, then steps on it, holding the lever in place, locks and loads a fresh clip and waits for the government troops to arrive....
William
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
If he was doing a joke/parody, he wouldn't have posted as A/C.
We don't hate freedom. We just don't trust people to be nice to others; this is why we have a big State that makes sure no one can take undue advantage of others.
We don't have freedom, we have liberty: by insuring that no one can crush someone else, we insure that they are free to do whatever they want without hurting anyone else. Like being able to speak against a big company without fear of being sued into oblivion. Being able to denounce working conditions without being fired. This is true liberty.
Liberty is not having the freedom to enslave or drive other people by the nose to kow-tow your line.
In the past, we have thoroughly been screwed by free entrepreneurs who had no problem using THEIR liberty to enslave others in company towns. So we gave ourselves strong governments that make sure that the free entrepreneurs will not crush their workers.
A true liberty is one that can be enjoyed by everyone, not just the rich, like in the USA.
You did not leave France/Canada by your own volition, you were deported en masse by the britshit in 1755. Yes, the britshit conducted the first modern ethnic cleansing.
At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation
You do realize that Russia is a democracy, right?
Hey, timothy... Why is this on developers.slashdot.org? It doesn't belong here as it's not to do with software development; it belongs in YRO...
"Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
So? Install Bastille Linux...
Bush and "right-wing" radio did a 180 cartwheel when Sarkozy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Sarkozy) got into power there. Gone was all of the anti-French diatribe, those liberty fries (as opposed to French Fries), those scoundrels who wouldn't help us "liberate" Kuwait back to its rightful monarchical ruler, etc. Sarkozy gives me the willies. But I agree with other posters here, if there is any country whose people will cause a repeat of the late 18th century popular revolutions, government reforms, and restoration of civil liberties it will be the French.
Back before they dropped most of it.
- TIA
Let me ask this: How many environmental protection laws do you think the Sierra Club got passed versus how many that ELF or Greenpeace have?
The largest mass-arrest in recent Canadian history, the Clayoquot Blockade, was pretty successful. Mind you, it was supported on multiple fronts: mail-outs, lobbying, faxing, press releases, multiple NGO's and coalition-building, etc.
The point is that the commercial logging interests allied with government were using multiple fronts (legal, political, media, police, thugs, covert harassment, vandalism). This is a typical situation where you have political dominance and 1) people are upset by some kind of abuse and 2) those in economic/political power stand to gain a lot... nasty tactics show up on both sides, though the monopoly on violence claimed by the government is usually more dangerous (these days things quickly escalate into the discourse of 'terrorism', even if it's just windows being smashed).
The fact that opponents of political power face thuggery and covert harassment, systemic discrimination, vilification in the media, etc. in addition to obvious crap like 'free speech zones' (hellooo Orwell!), means that anything less than a multiple-front response will be ineffective.
There's no question that without rag-tag protesters chaining themselves to trees and standing on sidewalks with signs, the Sierra Club wouldn't look so moderate or credible. Of course, the Sierra Clubs of the world can't affiliate themselves with the marginal groups, or directly acknowledge their contribution.
Political change is a kind of ecosystem. That's why it's so effective for the police to send in moles and saboteurs; they can mess up the edges of a strategy pretty easily, because protesters at the fringe are pretty unstable people often, so a few provocateurs can push things over the edge and shift the debate (cf. G8 Genoa, Quebec City 2007, etc.).
Complex political process, complex media dynamics = complex campaigns for change.
Damn those pesky terrorists
That would be the Parisians. But the French fishermen would blockade the harbours, the French truckers would blockade the ferry ports and oil refineries, while the French farmers will blockade strategic locations such as the trains, the tunnels, and Disneyland.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
works in an environment where the vast majority of 'citizens' are willfully ignorant fools who can't get off their couches let alone carry out their duties as citizens. It cannot...
The fault, my dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.
No matter how you construct it, a population of sheep are only fit to be sheared. If people will not be bothered to go to even the most minimal amount of effort to maintain themselves in a free state, then they will be slaves. And when they are unwilling to all stand up mutually for the rights of every one else's rights as well as their own, then the only inevitable result will be some form of tyranny because the collective authority of society will be exercised by someone, and if it is not everyone collectively then it will be the few, and they will quickly become the privileged.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
Have a nap..... zen FIRE ZE MISSELZ.
Your evaluation period for Productivity 1.0 has ended. Please purchase more coffee to continue using this product.
This is just an observation, but Barack Obama has amassed an email list of young supporters, and these are precisely the demographics of the people who are talked about in this article.
Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
The only indiv.right required for democracy to function is freedom of [political] speech. Otherwise, democracy can be frequently hostile to individual rights. In many places, freedom of religion is [would be] rendered moot if democracy (the will of the majority) could have its way unhampered by things like the US and other Constitutions.
In this case, it is a question of the rights of society to peace versus the rights of the individual to privacy. Social rights are highly weighted in France.
Here in the US, we joke rather constantly about France, despite our being friends and allies. Much of it has to do with surrendering during wars and battles (which is really only partially true and don't ever forget the very tough French Resistance) and the consistent electing of week governments. (Actually, the two are related: week governments surrender, but many of the French citizenry are tough, hence the tough Resistance.) I've frequently hypothesized that the French prefer to keep electing week governments to protect their freedoms without having to have yet another revolution. As our own government stomps all over our rights and freedoms here and I see the Brits losing theirs as well, I begin to wonder if the French have been right all along. Our government was built on the premise of a week federal system with strong states' rights and even stronger individual rights, but we keep electing strong (success/failure, peace/war, smart/stupid not related to this) governments and our rights have eroded. How little or how much have the rights of the French eroded? I honestly don't know and would like some input on this.
I hope this comment is well received... I could have moderated instead!
Persecutors will be violated!
Cheers to that! *raises glass*
French authorities are smart. In order to speed up creating the database, they put up an online petition against it, so people are giving their names themselves :)
Coding etudes
Im without words..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
*ahem*
... nor the English.
[taps desk]
The Battle of Hastings was *not* won by the French (Gauls).
Rather, the Normans, who previously swept in and pwnd all of northern France, went on to do the same to England. The English and French languages/cultures experienced a mixing due to the cultural turbulence caused by these invasions, and Norman words and ways were dropped into both lands.
Oh yeah. And Napoleon? He's a Corsican.
>> Standing on head makes smile of frown, but rest of face also upside down.
Well, they wouldn't necessarily get out of their chairs in protest, but they might raise a glass from a seated position in a sidewalk cafe in protest.
Qu'ils mangent de la brioche.
You know Napoleon wasn't actually French, right? His family was originally from Tuscany, and moved to Corsica. Corsica became a French territory just a year before he was born.
I'll save 'em some trouble. I'll breach their public order.
People of France! Your gov't. is made up of buttheads who obviously think you're their misfit stepchildren and will continue to to worsten this treatment as time goes by.Take matters into your own hands and change this. Viva la revolution!
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Organized public protest is actually illegal in France without a permit. You can be arrested for being in a group larger than three last I heard.
No, I'd say it's meant to be a joke (I don't think anyone would use the phrases I bolded, especially the spelling of 'terror'), but I liked the second AC's response anyway.....
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
My name is:
Ken'); DROP TABLE PEOPLE; --
http://xkcd.com/327/
Where did you get your statistics ? The public sector employs a lot of people in France but not 50%. A comprehensive citizen watch organisation puts the figure at 26%, i.e. 7 million people. This includes ordinary civil servants working for one part or another of government, but also scientific researchers, teachers, and employees of public companies like Electricite de France, the Parisian Metro, and so on.
At first glance one might think the country in question is Russia or Zimbabwe but the truth is, it's a democratic nation which is implementing this database.
Michel Pezet ... had this to say ... : 'The Edvige database has no place in a democracy.'
The last time I checked, both Russia and Zimbabwe were democracies. Unreservedly, unarguably democracies (though we might quibble over Zimbabwe after the latest election). Though some of us may disapprove of some of the policies enacted by their popularly elected governments, that is irrelevant. The quotations in the story demonstrate that the propaganda effort to confuse the concepts of democracy and freedom has been wildly successful (see 1984). One might have expected that when democracies violated the rights of their subjects, that would spark people to wake up and see the difference. But no, the false notion of "democracy == freedom" has been so deeply implanted as to become axiomatic, a religious article of faith that cannot be swayed by any evidence. Rather than opening peoples' eyes, the routine, expected behaviour of states that happen to use democracy to legitimize themselves only causes people to whine in disbelief.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
For the english language it's way more than 1600 words. The very same page that you link to estimates 30% of all english words are of french origin.
There is no such thing as ethnic French anyway. Napoleon was in the French revolutionary army, lived and spoke french, he was French enough alright. That's too bad for the French BTW because Napoleon was a lunatic and there is zero reason to be proud of this leader.
I'd like to know what a "pure French" victory or defeat at any rate. The French army employs legionnaires who are often foreigners.
Yeah. They protest over everything there. It's not gonna last.