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Homeland Security's Space-Based Spying Goes Live
BountyX writes "While America's attention has shifted to the economic meltdown and the presidential race between corporate favorites John McCain and Barack Obama, The Wall Street Journal reported Wednesday that the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) National Applications Office (NAO) 'will proceed with the first phase of a controversial satellite-surveillance program, even though an independent review found the department hasn't yet ensured the program will comply with privacy laws.' NAO will coordinate how domestic law enforcement and 'disaster relief' agencies such as FEMA use satellite imagery intelligence (IMINT) generated by US spy satellites. Based on available evidence, hard to come by since these programs are classified 'above top secret,' the technological power of these military assets are truly terrifying."
Would you like to have such a satellite system for yourself? I probably would.
You never needed to stop. In fact, it made me very sad when you stopped. I had to *pay* for porn again.
Show this to your friends and family that don't know what a real hacker is
Sales of golf umbrellas and large-brimmed sombreros went through the roof.
You're using her as bait, Master!
that doesn't sound like it's legal. Does DHS have the legal authority to spy on American citizens going about their business? Should it?
This system sounds like big brother is finally coming online and when you run a red light, the satellite will track you home since only terrorists run red lights!!!!111
They're using their grammar skills there.
Oh, yeah it is! Don't fool yourself. You guys who think you know about imaging have no idea. Just hold your newspaper slanted a bit so they can read over your shoulder. Posted AC on purpose. This is not a joke.
So there's this entire questionably legal surveillance system going up. Real big brother type stuff, yet I at least haven't heard of this at all until now, not to mention the US at large. If people who actually watch out for these kinda things don't hear about this, than what's the chance of their actually being public backlash? Yeah so....I'm moving to Sweden.
If you didn't do anything wrong, then what do you have to hide?
uh yes it is the newest satalite that is camercail can see smthing as small as sixteen incches wide military and goverment even smaller.
I am getting really sick of hearing how big corps "picked" Obama and McCain, ... we picked them not Exxon or McDonalds
Or Newscorp?
After watching how Ron Paul and Alan Keys were both marginalized by selective non-reporting (despite Paul's recordbreaking fundraising and massive grassroots support), I have no trouble viewing McCain as a corporate pick (or the people's pick from the corporations' small set of approved options). Ditto Obama (and Clinton) vs. Kucinich.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Yes, so people are 1 pixel.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Do you know for certain what they have up there? If not, maybe you should think twice before casually dismissing news you don't like with lame-o "tinfoil hat" responses.
uh yes it is the newest satalite that is camercail can see smthing as small as sixteen incches wide military and goverment even smaller.
Then it's either a bunch of FUD or a giant step backward. Thirty years ago, the word was that they could resolve two golf balls on the ground if they were separated by the width of one golf ball.
Electric Eye.
I'd point out that big corporations liking a canidate and giving sizeable campaign contributions does not mean they picked him. In fact, corporations often give money to both canidates in a race, reguardless of their platform. Many want to buy favor, not promote specific politics. If a canidate looks like he has a good chance of winning (aka a nominee for an election from one of the two parties) then typically he gets money from such corporations as long as he doesn't actively say "Don't buy Coke" or something like that.
(Again, there are plenty of exceptions, some whole industries, like health insurance companies)
I think it's easy to confuse corporations giving money to a politician who is going to win with corporations acting as king-makers, especially for those people whose interests are so far from the mainstream that they don't see a difference between the two parties. Those of us who are more center see the two parties as being very different, and corporate support of both is non-specific.
That's my argument for going out naked. I try to explain to the cops that this way they can see I'm not carrying drugs. Thus far my success rate is roughly fail.
the technological power of these military assets are truly terrifying.
Only terrifying if you do not understand the limitatations of the associated techonology. It's a freaking telescope in space. With *gasp* a camera attached. The "above top secret" label gives the story a hint of rancid feces-- usually attributable to conspiracy nuts.
Could it be a privacy issue? Yes. But there is so much frantic handwaving and conspiracy flavored cool-aid that any objective points or are hidden from view at first glance. And the article isn't worth reading twice.
Then it's either a bunch of FUD or a giant step backward. Thirty years ago, the word was that they could resolve two golf balls on the ground if they were separated by the width of one golf ball.
I wouldn't call it FUD. F is for fear, and if it's a giant step backward, fear doesn't apply here. So you can call it just "UD" :)
... if they could have spend the money on something more important....
It doesnt really matter how good your cameras are, any surveillance system is really limited by how much area it can see at a time and as that increases the manpower needed to sort through all the data increases exponentially. Until they have 300 million of these guys up there full time, and another 300 million people watching the feeds, do you really think they are going to be spending much time looking at you unless you stand out?
I really dont think even the government is stupid enough to use a multi-billion dollar instrument to track someone who ran a red light.
Uhm, that study may be pointing out at potential misuse of the lists &mdash treating the entries as actual terrorists, rather than mere suspects — but not at abuse. Software is not going to care. It takes an actual overzealous cop to abuse the list by placing a person on it, against whom no reasonable suspicions exist.
That said, considering the present-day prominence (and a comfortable life of a tenured professor) of an anti-war protester turned terrorist (to this day unrepentant), the Maryland cops' action is not that unconscious...
It is not that all such protesters are necessarily going to become terrorists, it is that there is a prominent example of how doing that can not only go unpunished by the Law, but, actually, glorified by Public Opinion — or, at least, significant segments thereof...
With Ayers on everybody's mind because his protege is within grasp of becoming the next President, I would not blame those cops for suspecting, that some of the present-day anti-war activists may be up to blowing up a thing or two...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Are you sure they didn't marginalize themselves? I would submit that Ron Paul was largely ignored because most voters weren't picking up what he was laying down, and he didn't have the skills to convince them.
Kucinich likewise is unable to be very convincing. Whenever I read about something he's doing, I agree with him in spirit, but he's not being at all realistic. He's still trying to impeach Bush. I think Bush should be impeached, but it's not going to happen. To keep doing it looks more like masturbation than leading. To be honest, that doesn't just make him a bad canidate, it also would have made him a bad president. Politicians have to be realistic and willing to compromise to get anything done.
I don't know much about Alan Keys, but my impression was that he was too conservative even for the republican party.
So is it that Obama and McCain are the corporate pick or the sane pick?
...since these programs are classified "above top secret"...
Cripes, are people really this freakin' dense? Take a look in the dictionary under "top" and figure out what the word means. It means there ain't nuthin' above it!
The classification levels--- UNCLASSIFIED, CONFIDENTIAL, SECRET, TOP SECRET--- are all there are, and simply determine what general degree of security is required. Now, individual subjects or programs will be compartmentalized, which is the more specific degree of access limitation within the general classification (referred to as Sensitive Compartmented Information - SCI and Special Access Programs - SAP). Compartmentalization tells who, where, and how much information can be revealed, and is based entirely on need to know. For example, I had a TOP SECRET clearance when I was in the Army, but I was specifically cleared for only a narrow subset (i.e. a compartment) of TOP SECRET information which pertained to my specific job, that of HUMINT Collector. Since I did not need to know about the whatever the latest hypersonic spy plane test bed is, I could not drive into Area 51 and go look at it, despite it certainly being classified TOP SECRET, and me holding a TOP SECRET clearance. The idea that there's some super-secret classification level above top secret is idiocy spouted by moron UFO conspiracy nutjobs who can't even consult Wikipedia for a simple overview of the classification system.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Read for comprehension, dickbite. That's why I explicitly said either a bunch of FUD or a giant step backward. Read up on it -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_or
captcha -- indolent -- ha -- they saw you coming!
That's my argument for going out naked. I try to explain to the cops that this way they can see I'm not carrying drugs. Thus far my success rate is roughly fail.
Is that cause they do a cavity search?
Come on mods, at least edit out the obvious time-cube crap from the summary before posting these.
Jesus fucking christ, Fark is more accurate than this crap.
If I wanted paranoid shit, I would go to church.
Since the MSM decides what is convincing and conveniently editorializes it all for us, I would say most voters never had much of a chance. GP is correct that the public has been spoon fed the two major candidates for quite some time.
~ I am logged on, therefore I am.
So does this system look into the past aswell? Reminds me alot of Deja Vu.
Again, what indication do you have that any of their messages would have resonated with a largely apathetic, willfully ignorant american public? I think their messages have merit, but they didn't get any traction because most people weren't already convinced, not because they were ignored by the media.
If the media has a blame, it's that they've shortened our attention spans to where we won't give a canidate time to convince us of anything we aren't already convinced of.
Which... when you think about it... is much more depressing than them intentionally sidelining a particular canidate.
Well, one could have a good idea of how many satellites they have put up. It is really hard to hide rocket launches. So let me pull a number out of the air: 1000. That is way more than I think they would have up there. Each one is in LEO, so they probably have an orbital period of around 90 min. (max for LEO is 120 min). Now get some idea of how many people they can "track" with that many satellites. Now half it, due to weather. Now half it again, due to day/night cycles. Think really hard, and give me a back of the envelope calculation of just how many targets they could conceivably track.
If our remote sensing was really as good as the article implies, then US forces wouldn't have been subject to as many IED attacks in Iraq as we have suffered. Now you want me to believe that they can put such resources to work tracking domestic US citizens?
I'll say it also, satellite imagery isn't all it's made out to be. It ain't that great.
Five candidates were invited to the FOX Republican Primary Debates, and Ron Paul was not one of them. Yeah, I was a crazy Ron Paul-ite, but it really convinced me that Ron Paul was being kept hidden away like GP was suggesting. I didn't follow Obama's primaries, so I don't know about that.
Yes, so people are 1 pixel.
HEY! That pixel just flipped me off!
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Is that the government has just awarded a top secret no-bid contract to Google Earth so that they are the only ones pay 72 billion dollars for the state of the art in web based intelligence that the rest of us just use for free.
This is my sig.
"Up here in space, I'm looking down on you... My lasers trace, everything YOU do! You think you've private lives (think NOTHING of the kind) - there is NO TRUE ESCAPE (I'm watching, all the time)... I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam! I am perpetual, I keep the country clean! I'm elected, electric spy. I'm protected, the electric eye... Always in focus, can't kill my stare - I zoom into you (but, you don't know I'm there)... I take a pride in probing all your secret moves, my tearless retina takes pictures that can prove, I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam... I am perpetual, I keep the country clean. Electric eye, in the sky Feel my stare, always there... Theres nothing you can do about it (Develop and expose) - I feed upon your every thought, And so my power grows! I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam... I am perpetual I keep the country clean. I'm elected, electric spy. I'm protected, electric eye... Protected, Detective, Electric Eye..." - JUDAS PRIEST
After watching how Ron Paul and Alan Keys were both marginalized by selective non-reporting (despite Paul's recordbreaking fundraising and massive grassroots support), I have no trouble viewing McCain as a corporate pick (or the people's pick from the corporations' small set of approved options). Ditto Obama (and Clinton) vs. Kucinich.
Reminds me of the one CBS news story I saw on Ron Paul. The story was on one of *those* Los Vegas places where apparently the ladies where asking for donations for the campaign from the clients. Now I can't help but get the feeling that CBS purposefully went out to look for the one thing about about Ron Paul that would offend the most people, while at the same time avoiding any coverage that would give people any clue who the heck he is in the first place. Meh.
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
Mod this up and the parent down, or you're a terrorist. And don't forget to vote McCain at the election!
What evidence do you have that the messages of the remaining candidates resonate with a largely apathetic, willfully ignorant american public?
If you're answer is the fact that it must be so by virtue of them being the remaining candidates, then your argument is simply circular.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
This is yet another reason that USA appears to have lost its way.
FTFA "But as the Journal reported, Congress' "partial funding" for the program in "a little-debated $634 billion spending measure," "
Now assume for a second that this funding figure is correct, (the article reads a little like one of those conspiracy theory types are writing it) WTF is congress thinking?
The country is in meltdown that will NOT be stopped, the healthcare system is screwed (I am waiting for our system in Australia to fall that far) and congress thinks it is ok to spend that sort of money on spying on people?
I cheered when the first bailout bill failed. I hoped that it represented an outbreak of common sense. I hoped that the bailout would save the little guy, but NOT the banks.
This is the result of needing to have increasing profit, needing to have ways to make money that have ZERO actual use to the economy/population (they don't create anything, they don't help anyone, they just exist for people to gamble to make money)
Take a step back, large debt is bad. Always needing growth will eventually bite back.
To be on topic, this kind of spending seems to be indicative that NO lessons have been learned OR that the common man is as truly helpless as the "fat cats" seem to think
Another reason to never go outside. Ever.
Sig this!
One *thousand*? That's not pulled out of the air, that's pulled out of a orifice.
No, it's because he claims not to enjoy it but keeps going back for more.
This is poorly-written alarmist nonsense. If you think this is "terrifying," you have serious problems.
I enjoy my privacy and all, but when I read reactions like this I just have to shake my head and laugh.
You did. In the GGP's example, one ran a red light. Try again to explain, what's wrong with all such people being automatically cited...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Nope, that would be a "success".
Different strokes for different folks, what more can I say?
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
Considering the cost of these satellites and the relatively small amount of attitude control fuel, I can not see much use here. Drone aircraft are cheaper, and are effectively invisible at high altitudes. Especially since the shuttle is being retired, and the U.S. has no other satellite maintenance platforms.
I'm going to open my mouth when I probably shouldn't, but I've been out of the intel field for enough years that no one is going to get pissed off for me talking.
Satellite imaging is really pretty good. Better than you think. The military stuff is excellent. Imagine what we're doing now with atmospheric telescopes that we couldn't have done twenty years ago and realize that the same principles apply when the direction is reversed.
What really pisses me off is that I would have gone to jail back in the day for what they are green-lighting now. Much less than that, even. Disgusting.
I'm really glad I left all that intel stuff behind or I would end up in jail when I refused to follow orders.
Put identity in the browser.
"NAO will coordinate how domestic law enforcement and "disaster relief" agencies such as FEMA use satellite imagery intelligence (IMINT) generated by U.S. spy satellites."
First off, lets set the record straight. FEMA is not a '"disaster relief"' agency. It is a disaster. Period. I cannot believe these people have nothing better to task these satellites with than watching ordinary citizens, scurrying about on the ground, going about their daily business. How about finding UBL? Wasn't that a 'pry-or-a-ty' of that inbred hick in the 'Oval Office'? Instead of eyeballing private citizens from space, why don't they find that asshole and put a Hellfire missile up his ass? American citizens may chide the the UK all they want for their nationwide deployment of CCTV cameras, but this is so wrong that it is embarrassing on a national level.
Sig this!
Actually, Alan Keyes views share more in common with Ronald Reagan's than any other candidate that was running. He would have been perhaps a better choice than McCain for the Republican party, as he is a very eloquent speaker.
Unfortunately, the Media does not want a *real* conservative candidate to run. They want someone who is going to put their finger on the Media Poll pulse, and make policy from that.
If enough republican/conservative voters knew who the heck Alan Keyes was, it would be a whole different story. But, if you watched the debate, they gave him 1 whole question, then ignored him. It was so obvious that the Media had pre-selected the acceptable candidates on both sides. Those were the ones who were given questions and allowed to answer.
For a real treat of a debate, you can go to the Alan Keyes website, and watch his debates with Obama. You may not agree with one or the other candidate, but both of them did far better debating when the big media was not in control of it. Actually, very good debates.
The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
He caught my interest too, until I realized his girlfriend was a blow up doll.
"Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
Then why have it? It is built for surveillance or why would you have it. Obviously it doesn't have to be that great to be useful and is meant to be used with other apparatus (that doesn't exist in Iraq) to achieve it's goals. Saying this is a means to justify feeling comfortable living in a police state and maintain the illusion of freedom. It doesn't matter what it can or can't do, what matters is what it is for.
Benjamin Franklin said that the constitution (for all it's flaws) wouldn't save America from despotism, and as the mechanism's have been put in place incrementally, we see he was right.
I wonder how hot the water is for the frog now?
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I'm going to open my mouth when I probably shouldn't, but I've been out of the intel field for enough years that no one is going to get pissed off for me talking.
So rather than making bullshit speculative "it's better than you think" mumbo jumbo, how about giving us some numbers.
How we know is more important than what we know.
The stupid stuff that happened in the 60's and 70's != 9/11 pal. TOTALLY different in every way. To combine the two is like saying that McCain's torture has something to do with his erratic behavior, or the fact that he's a child molester. Ok, bad example.
The FOUNDERS of this country were terrorists in the eyes of King George. But what they did was fight to create a better situation for themselves. You saw that again in the 60's and 70's with civil rights and the youth movement. Yes, the Weather Underground were a bunch of idiots but it's important to note that the changes some of their peers helped bring about have made this country a massively better place for everyone. And anyway, the real fear is religious fanatics with a nuclear weapon, not some dumb kids with pipe bombs.
And you sir are a fool to think that it has anything to do with "WAR". It's just that war epitomizes the separation of class. In the 70's there were drastic (though not as drastic as today) gaps between rich and poor. A horrible economy, an unending war, caused by foolish leadership, taken advantage of by the rich while the poor starve and are jobless, well, what's worse than that?
What this is doing is placing still more power, surveilence power (control), into the hands of a few people in the government. The same people who have pretty much given the government to corporations they formerly ran, and now are giving 700B to the same people. It's in the largest worldwide corporations' interest to A. have control of a government B. Erase worldwide borders caused by multiple currencies/legal systems/etc. "War" rarely physically involves the rich, unless it's a passtime they get off on. It's about money. Now what we have are the makings for a massive shift in government, from multiple countries to one world government. It is 100% enevitable. The people who control the wealth of the world talk to one another, you know. And it sure would be simpler for them if they didn't have to mess with different legal systems..
WWII was between capitalism (The allies), corporatism or fascism (the axis), and communism (the Soviets/China). We the U.S. were actually on the fence and were supporting both the forces of corporatism and capitalism. See also The New Deal. The problem is that the American constitution has separated public and private as much as it does church and state. In the end, money won. The plans showed that if we joined with England, Germany could be beaten. Frankly, there were just more English decended families in power in congress at the time. Obviously in Germany corporatism was over-stateist and led by a madman, which led to extremes that made the choice a no-brainer. The important thing to note is that it was not the economic policy of Hitler but rather other more personal reasons that caused us to ally with the Allies. Likewise, Japan bombed us because they were invading China and the Phillipines, whom we had relations with/had a territory. So, it was a no-brainer.
But NOW, we have an entirely different power structure. There are many "free market" scholars who have long admired the structure of corporatism. So, you see some of these people's last gasp in the political arena as trying to make this leap. And so, just as Bush Cheney has broken the barriers of Church and State, they have also broken the barriers of public and private. And in many ways they have flat out BROKEN the LAW (and the constitution). They declared early that the president decides the law, so they made up their own book. And with Globalism, what will be the enevitable structure of this one world government? Not capitalism, that's for growth. Not communism, that's for stagnation. No, a perfectly controlled business environment, neo-corporatism, with some facets of democracy.
So now the competing philosophies in the high end of world leadership are differing only by what to do with US, the worker bees. I think corporatism could wo
Cool! Amazing Toys.
Uh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's lots of evidence that points to the contrary.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Oh come on. You know what FUD really is. Probably got some in your fridge.
What?
Yes clearly our media has an agenda. But my "trollish" point is that we are in the end responsible for what happens in our country. The truth is out there, there are thousands of websites which provide many different perspectives. The media can be evil, but we are foolish if we buy into everything we hear without a little fact checking. But hey since pointing out the obvious is burning my karma maybe I should just shut up.
It's quite obvious Bush and his cronies are moving their final piece into place to take over and enslave all mankind for their reptilian overlords. October 14th you will see.
CNN has had three articles written by Ron Paul about the tanking economy and election in the last month. Two that I know of were linked from the front page. Barely a peep about him when he was running for President.
When the media actively censors Paul, voters wouldn't know what he's laying down to being with.
http://www.ronpaultimeline.com/
You first.
Again, what indication do you have that any of their messages would have resonated with a largely apathetic, willfully ignorant american public?
I contest your characterization of the American public.
Ron Paul effectively got exposure ONLY on the internet - which the Old Media were unable to gatekeep - and by word of mouth. His message had VERY broad appeal - among Republicans, Democrats, Independents, new voters, old voters who had given up and dropped out, ... (If he'd gotten started 9 months earlier and the rate had kept up he'd have taken the nomination handily - and the presidency as well.) He broke the all-time one-day fundraising record, pulling in millions of dollars from hundreds of thousands of contributors averaging about $100 each, while his support in polls was still single-digit.
His message is an old one: Freedom, limited government. And it is the SAME message that has a track record of doing this same sort of mass-movement-inspiration in the past, resulting in the American Revolution and the creation of the current government (among its other success stories).
Given the message's historic track record (especially among downtrodden elite-ridden "huddled masses") and Ron's personal record using it, I have little doubt that it was only the lack of exposure in, and distortion by, the old media that is responsible for his continued marginalization.
I think their messages have merit, but they didn't get any traction because most people weren't already convinced, not because they were ignored by the media.
And how does one convince them if they don't hear the arguments? Since the message is very convincing WHEN IT'S DELIVERED, it's specifically "being ignored (or distorted and libeled) by the media" that is the missing link.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
but can they see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
4cm/pixel.
That would be like throwing a net in the sea and catching _all_ the damn fish. Just doesn't seem right.
For all of you who wanted more federal involvement, federal control of the national guard, etc.
The chickens have come home to roost.
I'm going to get pissed at you - not for giving up secrets, but for talking out of your ass. And for trying to make us believe that even though you've been out 'long enough' which implies you aren't familiar with current tech. (And you show you aren't even up on what's publicly known.)
Satellite imaging is OK, but less impressive than you might think. Resolution is much less than fiction/Hollywood would have you believe, and coverage isn't real time. If a bird isn't available (and it rarely is) when what you want to see is going down, you are SOL.
Horseshit. Adaptive optics depend on seeing a guide star created by a laser, something you can't do with a satellite. There's also a technique involving taking multiple images and analyzing them - you can't do that from a satellite either as it moves too quickly.
A futile Soviet-era ploy by DHS to stay the arrest and incarcination (with death penalty served) of all DHS and associative agencies staff and political appointees pending the next election.
No where to run -- no where to hid, DHS.
Still, they, DHS and associative agencies staff and political appointees could choose the, Final Solution, and kill themselves in their own homes or on the streets -- in back allies of DC's south side, such as they lurk, wanting, to quench their thurst for cocaine and such other things.
I never watch TV news, listen to news radio, or read newspapers. My internet news comes largely from international sources. Despite all of that, I still think Ron Paul is a nutbar and would not even think about voting for him.
When you get that far, you need to realize that it is, in fact, a problem with the person himself, not some vast conspiracy.
If you mod me Overrated, you are admitting that you have no penis.
I remember when distrusting government spending our money on spying on us, violating our rights, was a favorite "value" for Conservatives, not just some kind of sign of weakness by "liberals".
Liberals always said that Conservatives were just fascist lemmings. Now that Conservatives have created this huge infrastructure for spying on us and violating our rights, rather than protecting them, it's obvious that liberals were right.
--
make install -not war
You don't know anything about the quality of the images of the latest military and NSA spy satellites.
All you know is that your government can do no wrong. OK, you don't know anything about that, either - despite the indelible lessons of this entire decade.
--
make install -not war
Then why have it? It is built for surveillance or why would you have it.
Optical and radar imaging satellites ARE built for surveillance -- but surveillance of what?
Here's a hint: think of things that appear bigger than a pixel or two in an image.
IMINT is great for watching big things: ships, submarines, tanks, airplanes, big crowds of people. It's not so good for monitoring individual people, unless you're really, really good at interpreting the identity of a person from a pixel or two.
The article does sound rather garish, but considering systems within systems, parallel to systems, and funky classifications invented by paranoid department heads and Dick Cheney coming up with his own stamps with his own classifications of, "Shhh. Don't Tell Anyone" I find it hard to believe that things are nearly so well-ordered as you portray.
Do you have any odd memory gaps or personality quirks which you didn't have before you entered the service? Even if there has been zero improvement over the mind control systems used in the Seventies, then chances are you wouldn't even suspect a violation.
After all. . , is posting in widely read public forums to boast about credentials an encouraged activity for a HUMINT Collector?
You're fishy as hell regardless of what your real story happens to be, and if you are what you say you are, then you're probably a lot further gone than you realize. You have my sincere condolences if that's the case.
-FL
It's amazing how much people will still stick up for Bush and his very corrupt anti-constitutional administration. I'm positive that they would still do so whilst talking through barbed-wire fence in an internment camp setup by Bushco. Truth be told, it is absolutely unrealistic to have a real-for the people political leader following Bush not to have pursued impeachment and/or imprisonment of the prominent members of his corrupt administration. What kind of American are you that agrees with crimes against the Constitution???
The real reality (which of course is true because I am the one saying it) is far more simple and less sinister than you have been led to believe.
Ron Paul made enemies at the facebook debate. On stage he directly insulted his opponents' foreign policy in such a way that from that point on, all the other candidates refused to attend any debate that he was part of.
I think it's bullshit too, but I don't believe it is some sort of evil conspiracy designed to keep the will of the people suppressed.
It was a little ridiculous seeing things during the primaries like Giuliani 4% Other 9% where "Other" is Ron Paul. The moment he decided to take a shit on the RNC was the moment that the RNC decided they didn't want him to represent them.
The problem with satellite tracking and iraq specifically is that insurgents typically move and plant during the night, when you can't really ID who is moving and why. Tracking movement and conducting surveillance? easy as pie. Interpretation of that information into something usable? not so easy.
This space intentionally left blank
Not trying to make anyone believe that I'm up on anything current. I think I was up front on the fact that I've been out for a while and that what I know should be out of date enough for me not to get into shit over it.
Heck, when I was in, the satellites were good, but we couldn't even officially admit that we had any. That was only about a decade ago, by the way.
You can get pissed at me for whatever you want. Unless you are with the U.S. government, I don't really care.
Put identity in the browser.
I don't know anything about stuff now and any numbers I did know are about ten years old and long gone into /brain/archive. Probably not useful to you.
My point was that the shit was good back then and has likely only gotten better,
Put identity in the browser.
+1
satellite imagery isn't all it's made out to be. It ain't that great.
Who says? Yeah, not that great now, that we know of... but the US is exceptionally motivated to catch terrorists. I'd bet we'd be able to put some really smart people working on the problem for a few years (maybe about 5) and have a major breakthrough.
Bob Woodward has said there's been an enhancement to the predator drones the government has developed, which has quelled the violence in Iraq. This could very well be what has been placed on these satellites.
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
Yeah, because everyone knows the government has not been motivated to find out who's blowing up all those cars in Iraq. The breakthrough Bob Woodward referenced almost certainly involves advanced optics
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/24/army/print.html
Not sure why that hasn't made Slashdot yet. It's huge.
Far bigger than just a satellite spying on us.
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to monitor a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
feldicus
The public knowledge of feasible technology today is laughably behind. We've had radically advanced aircraft since the late 50s that are still not publicly disclosed, other than a few blueprints due to the FOIA.
http://www.cufon.org/cufon/Silverbug.pdf
That is just the aircraft our government has not disclosed to the public. With advances in computers, satellites, and optics, is there any question that some part of our government can see almost anything on the planet, at any time? This combined with the universal wire tapping that has gone through and still in place....
We live in a society where the government can see everything you do, hear everything you do, does not count the votes at all, and even if they did count the votes, the media makes sure you are not informed about any valid candidates that are not completely beholden to the corporations that now run and control everything.
The Bill of Rights has been almost completely removed, the Constitution is almost completely void, and there is almost no military chance to revolt.
This is why I'm not breeding. I don't want to breed slaves.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
IMINT is great for watching [...] big crowds of people.
Oh I see, nothing to worry about, then. *back to sleep*
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
I have little doubt that it was only the lack of exposure in, and distortion by, the old media that is responsible for his continued marginalization.
Why exactly do you have little doubt about that? You said he had broad appeal, yet the fact that he was unable to secure a nomination indicates that it wasn't broad enough with republicans, and he at least seemed to think he didn't have enough broad appeal to have a legitimate shot as a 3rd party candidate.
He raised a lot of money, so did Dean. Went nowhere. I think the people who agreed with him REALLY agreed with him, but that doesn't translate into most of the voting public agreeing at all with him.
His message may be old, and I think you're saying that if he had been given a fair shot it therefore would have worked again, I see no proof of that.
I see no reason why his message was so repugnant to the mainstream media that they had a conspiracy to ignore him.
I also don't see any evidence that the media is as effective at setting our politics as you're saying. Right now, for example, the media isn't really reporting on anything besides Sarah Palin, yet Obama is gaining ground, not losing.
And how does one convince them if they don't hear the arguments? Since the message is very convincing WHEN IT'S DELIVERED, it's specifically "being ignored (or distorted and libeled) by the media" that is the missing link.
You're really taking it for granted that his message is compelling to everyone rather than just a small group of people. Ron Paul's particular brand of it may have been novel, but libertarianism has been around for a long time and yet has not been much of a political force. It seems to me that most people really don't care about libertarianism, and not because the media isn't talking about it.
Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica?
Great North Air Ambulance?
Gridless Narrow-Angle Astrometry? That doesn't even make sense.
Guilford Native American Association?
Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
I hoped that the bailout would save the little guy, but NOT the banks.
There should be no bailouts ... for ANYONE or ANY THING!!
It's the Government meddling that has put us in this position in the first place (Freddie, Fannie, Community Reinvestment Act, etc). Let the freakin' market correct as it should. I've lost 12.5% in my 401k and my home value has probably declined 20% so far this year. I made the choices. I took the risks. I screwed up. I'm NOT looking for someone to bail me out.
I am livid that taxpayers will now probably have to pony up over $1.5 trillion to bail out miscreants, slackers, and fools. I am super annoyed that banks (e.g., Bank of America) are dropping existing mortgage rates from 7% (hardly outrageous for those of us that remember 18%) to 4.8% for those in foreclosure. I've been on time with my 6% payments for 16 yrs even when times were lean. I passed on the expensive vacations, new cars, cool toys. Where's my break?
People and corporations that make poor choices must be allowed to fail. It's fiscal thinning of the herd. Certainly this should be understandable to the secular /. crowd.
Off topic, but the phrase "corporate favorites John McCain and Barack Obama" shows an astounding lack of intelligent thought. It's easy to blame a faceless entity for your troubles, though, isn't it? "It's not my fault I'm a loozer! The multi-national conglomerates are keeping me down!"
Anyway, the reality is that COMPANIES OF ANY KIND DO NOT PAY TAXES. If you raise taxes on a corporation they don't pay it; the price of their product rises and YOU pay it. If you keep raising the tax, they go out of business and a Chinese company fills the void.
Companies are the manifestation of the top decision-maker, period. How is Exxon different from Ben Assfleck or Matt Demon? They both have a well-funded agenda...it's different but the same.
Do you or have you worked for the US gov? Do you REALLY know what is possible, or are you just bushwhacking?
Not entirely true. Adaptive optics depend on seeing a small, bright object of a known (round) shape. This object can be a 'real' guide star if one happens to be available within the field of view of the telescope. If there is no such star the object can be created using a laser.
This could theoretically also be used in 'reverse': if there is a small, bright object of a known shape in the field of view of the telescope it could be used to model the atmospheric distortion and correct for it using adaptive objects. The world is littered with small, bright objects of known shape. Using a laser would somewhat defeat the aspect of secrecy unless that laser used a bandwidth invisible to the naked eye (in which case it could still be detected using sensors).
The real question is why anyone would bother using adaptive optics in a spy satellite. If you want that kind of resolution a drone aircraft is much cheaper, more flexible and less prone to weather-related blackouts...
--frank[at]unternet.org
you do realize predator drones are a lot closer to the ground than a satellite.
My experience is that they do it during the day. Most of them don't have night vision capabilities and flashlights are kind of a dead giveaway. I've spent many a day and night staring at a road waiting for someone to plant a bomb and an extreme majority of attempts happened in broad daylight.
Cover of darkness is not needed when you can use cover of innocence. They're very good at making it look like they're changing a tire or taking a little rest stop to stretch their legs or piss. They just open the trunk of their car, take some things out and set them down, then repack it. Unless you're watching them closely and see that they didn't put everything back in you'd never notice anything happened.
In Soviet Russia meme tires of you!
Yes, so people are 1 pixel.
Objects are closer then they appear! Tank or Apache or here or the classic example: Jurassic Park.
I read with interest the posts from individuals that had worked in some capacity with this type of technology. They all know the capability is better then most of the public believes it is. I for one believe them!
An added thought, the technology exists to see in a variety of spectrums (infrared, through clouds, ultra violet, etc...) and through a variety of obstacles...who knows what additional instruments are on our governments surveillance satellites. I would not be surprised if they could listen to the sounds inside my house, read what I am typing on my computer screen and see through multiple floors and/or walls directly into my house. I just feel sorry for them, how boring it would be to listen in, lol.
It does surprise me that others are surprised. So many people, even scientists are treated skeptically, treated as quacks, conspirators or frauds only to be vindicated years later.
A college friend's father worked for AT&T before the breakup of the baby bells. While he could not go into specifics, he did state that I would be shocked what was in his lab, on his drawing board - technology wise. He said most of it would not be made public for years in the future.
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To keep doing it looks more like masturbation than leading.
Whereas staying in Iraq is "staying the course" and "not blinking". At least his fixation isn't getting people killed.
Given CBRNE is usually Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear Event then this looks more like a brigade setup to help civil authorities in the event of an incident which they are unable to cope with - most civil police departments lack the equipment (as do EMS) to deal with these events I'm not sure what the problem is..
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
hmmm. Yeah, that's a lot bigger than a satellite. Sorry, but you guys are fucked.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Well, I agree on your first premise, that the actual number of personnel they could track at a time is limited. However, I will have to disagree with your second point about IED's. Ability to detect IED emplacement is not best served by a satellite's coverage. Therefore, not a good supporting argument on the ability of a satellite to track "targets". Last, what several people don't realize is that this tracking is what is now public. It wouldn't take a rocket scientist or conspiracy theorist long to realize that tracking of this sort has, in theory, been going on for some time. It has probably already been posted elsewhere, but I'll end with this quote from yesterdays thread about a poor sap wanting to stay out of the public eye: "They already got you man."
I agree, that satellites are not good at detecting IEDs. My point was, the "article" quoted other sources as saying that satellites can track people indoors. This doesn't pass the smell test with me. If our coverage is that good, then they could help track "insurgents" and we could better protect our troops in a combat zone. My premise is that even with the drones and such, our coverage from above isn't as capable as the article implies.
I've never felt that a satellite can track a passive moving target smaller than a ship. Yes they can image things on order of many centimeters, but due to the nature of orbits, and the fact that there can't be enough satellites above to keep targets in view continuously, a satellite is next to worthless for tracking cars, let alone people. Satellites are very useful to look at stationary targets, large troop movements (the kinds involving tanks, howitzers, helicopters, humvees, etc.), nuclear plants, dams, etc.
If one feels that they can track individuals, then I feel one has been reading too much Tom Clancy. I really fail to see how a satellite can help, even if you have another network of surveillance, unless one is looking for outdoor marijuana crops or something of that scale. There are plenty of terrestrial based surveillance schemes that can be much more useful and cost effective. The article stinks of bullshit to me.
Ending your genetic chain isn't a victory... having kids that will bring the fucking thing down is... or growing the balls to bring it down for your kids.
Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master.
"You do not get to come up with an arbitratry third category of "didn't break the law but I still don like him" and then persecute people in that category..."
Unless that person is a racist. Or a sexist. Or a homophobe...
Now that I think about it, yes actually, we do get to do that, or at least, it's being done, despite what you seem to think.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/09/24/army/print.html
Not sure why that hasn't made Slashdot yet. It's huge. Far bigger than just a satellite spying on us.
I do not blame you for posting as AC.... I know that even though I post this information for others to look at and decide for themselves, just by posting it a certain percentage will label me a conspiracy nut and I might even get modded as trying to cause problems when I am just acknowledging that I too have heard about (article) this and am providing additional information for people to chew on and think about.
The USA is slowly being turned into a police state so that we can be controlled, systematically taking away freedoms from Americans. This site suggests there are over 800 camps around the USA. Here is a video about a FEMA camp in Indiana, supposedly closed in 1933, but has received funding within the last two years as a amtrak - train maintenance facility.
I heard Alex Jones on Coast to Coast, here is a link to his website infowars. Supposedly he predicted not just the current collapse over two years ago, but nailed the reason as sub-prime markets...I need to find the document with the date he first made the prediction. My Realtor and mortgage broker friends knew the Real Estate bubble would burst over 2 years back. As a Notary/Signing Agent we talked about what was going on. As a person who participated in the RTC bailout, I am not surprised that it is happening again. My friends 2 to 2 1/2 years ago did not tie the bubble bursting to the sub prime market as Alex supposedly did.
Per the show, Alex got interested in how the government worked in High School and has actively looked into many issues for well over 20 years. The amount of information he has is incredible...again, check it out for yourself.
Not only did he sound very, very credible, he stated that there is so much dis-information being put online much in his name that he sometimes has 50 - 100 utube videos removed that are slandering him, all posted in the same 24 hour period. If you listen to the recorded show you will hear it in his words, but he basically is very well known at utube and once they verify it is him, the videos are instantly yanked. When someone is attacked so ardently as he obviously is, someone does not want you and I to know or think too much about what he is saying. Again listen yourself and form your own opinion.
I ask myself, what do they NOT want me to know. There is a reason they distract us from what is really going on with other things.
Supposedly he has a document that shows the Banking groups' plans that they are currently following now...supposedly leaked by someone when they left the Federal Reserve system. I need to look for it and provide a link. He stated on the show, that they are not doing anything in secret but instead are following a well thought out and detailed plan. This same template has been used to take the physical assets of other countries using that country's own banks and currency to do it. The documents state that the countries were expected to default on the loans the group of banks provided. I believe the details are in this video End Game, however I am not a subscriber so I have not watched it yet.
I also admit that I currently do not have three or more sources for this information, so it is up to you to decide for yourself.
I personally don't believe there are as many coincidences as many would like for us to believe. I find it very coinci
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> Do you know for certain what they have up there?
Yes; KH-12.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/kh-12.htm
Imagine the 2.4 metre mirror from the HST, but pointing towards Earth. Now imagine several of those on-orbit at any one time.
The soi-disant antiwar folks are the most violent shit ever to come out of a vagina.
They only strike when it's a war involving the United States.
The only real anti-war people are the Amish, Quakers, and Buddhists. The rest are useless idiots well on their way to treason.
I agree on "The article stinks of bullshit to me." Although ability to track is inherently determined by sensors used. A lot of people are assuming a video based sensor is employed. True or not, I agree, there are many limitations, and the article (on my 4th reading) sounds more like a conspiracy or ACLU lawyer than actual fact on capabilities. I think you hit the nail on the head Johnny Cashed.
The LEO satellites are not the ones *I* am worried about. The geosynchronous satellites, OTOH, keep me awake at night. And before you go into the whole "but geos are 34 thousand kilometers up" business, remember that this is the Government we are talking about, and the Government has access to equipment that most humans have not even dreamed of yet.
Also, it is not difficult to "hide" rocket launches. Spent much time in the greater South Pacific lately?
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
But MORE prone to mechanical failure, bird strike, weather grounding, SAMs, and human error both in servicing the vehicle, and in remote operation. In addition, drones suffer from range and flight-time limitations that satellites do not.
Each is useful, but not always for the same things.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
but the US is exceptionally motivated to catch terrorists.
You are partly right with your statement, what your missing is two words: "look" and "like". Admitedly they do catch some but that is not the really important thing. What's really important to them is to make the general public think they are exceptionally motivated to catch terrorists. Very few of the things enacted since 9/11 have actually made us safer, they've only made most of the people feel safer, and making people feel safer will get a politician re-elected. It's also very easy to make people think they are safer by the loss of some of their freedom, because if their liberty is hindered so is those that wish them harm. Witch is a logical fallacy, those that wish harm to law abiding citizens aren't following the same rules. They don't care about what laws are passed.
satellite imagery is not used for surveillance. the duty cycle of available spacecraft over any given area ant any given time is too high. It's used for fixed threat assessment (surface to air missle sites, bunkers, ammo depots, etc...) and mission planning. space based intel is used for strategic purposes, not tactical. you guys watch too many movies.
And the above comment about how the resolution is merely ok... that was true when the keyhole constellation was state of the art but that was 30 years ago. there's a reason that keyhole (a once highly classified imagery satellite constellation) is owned by google now.
Would someone explain to me how that was trolling? Why are the Ron Paulites STILL rabidly defending their candidate and making up excuses as to why he lost, rather than using the off season to convince people of his issues. He had valid points, if the grassroots campaign would stick together and try to get the message out, I think libertarianism could become something that people think about. The next Ron Paul wouldn't have such a hard time getting airtime.
McCain didn't just get Internet exposure. I saw him on The Daily Show, for example, when I was in the USA. He talked to John Stewart for five minutes, and in this managed to convince me that he had such a tenuous grasp of economics that he'd do irrevocable harm to the USA if he were elected, advocating the same positions that the foaming-at-the-mouth brand of libertarians that occasionally pop up here on Slashdot support.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Behold, a schoolyard in Ontario:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=47.885545,79.101563&ie=UTF8&ll=43.85812,-79.086507&spn=0.00134,0.002414&t=h&z=19
You can see a taller adult with a longer shadow a bit to the north just above where the walkway meets the paved area.
If you use Google Earth to go to that location, you'll get a slightly sharper image.
I correctly identified the models of quite a few vehicles in the area by satellite before seeing them in meatspace.
The images aren't sharp enough to tell people apart, but keep in mind these pics are taken with a commercial satellite, the military probably has much better equipment. Being able to identify people is not far off.
Imagine the 2.4 metre mirror from the HST, but pointing towards Earth. Now imagine several of those on-orbit at any one time.
You mean like five? Or is it four? http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/kh-12-flights.htm
Or even if it's ten, we've really got the place well covered, right?
A fisherman's goal is to sustain himself — not eliminate fish. If he catches all fish at once, he will starve tomorrow.
A law-enforcement's goal is to eliminate crime. (Now, we can cynically suspect, cops may want to leave some crooks alone so as not obsolete themselves, but we are so far from eliminating crime, that it is a moot point.)
It — automatic prosecution of all traffic violations — would, actually, be wonderful compared to the current situation, where only the unlucky get punished. (This is why I argue for automatically-issued speeding citations based on the entry and exit times and the distance between those points on a toll road.)
On the one hand, it will eliminate selective enforcement, where being local, or good looking, or having the correct bumper sticker can get someone off the hook. And on the other hand, unreasonable restrictions (such as obscenely low speed limits) will get eliminated, once everybody has to obey them.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
GP a point, I pointed out that he may have overlooked something and he clarified his point.
You know, a nice disourse like adults have.
Then you come bounding in here, firing off a flamebait mod because of...
What? There's no insult, the tome was normal and there was no inappropriate behavior by either of us.
Mod, you're an idiot and you moderation was garbage. if you don't like my completley accurate observation, stop hiding your cowardly ass behind bad moderation and discuss what you think is wrong.
You know, how adults who aren't idiots do.
Not in the US anyway.
It can be compartmentalized (SCI, but then again some secret is SCI), special access only, caveated... the list goes on, but it is still top secret.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
You think it's funny, but it's not.
The point was that private companies are probably making satellites that exceed what military systems can do because the market is driving them to do so. Rather than believing the military has some super satellite that can count hairs on a head from 20,000 miles up in geo orbit, it might be more likely that private companies have passed them by when it comes to an end to end system. Even if the military's original data is better, I doubt that they could arrive at something more effective with a completely proprietary toolchain as the feds are won't to do, as opposed to a cheap PC style server set with some decent off the rack developer tools... either Windows or Linux with VS200x or Eclipse...
This is my sig.
...the US is exceptionally motivated to catch terrorists.
Yeah... that's the motivation.
Bob Woodward has said there's been an enhancement to the predator drones the government has developed, which has quelled the violence in Iraq. This could very well be what has been placed on these satellites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQ-1_Predator
Right now, for example, the media isn't really reporting on anything besides Sarah Palin
Mostly a smear campaign IMO. Obama is definitely still getting a lot (most of the positive anyway) of exposure.
The problem being that real world reconnaissance is generally done with the sun at a fairly sharp angle - as shadows are important for analysis. High angle imagery, the most likely to produce such small bright objects, is rare. Another problem is that unlike stars, which move fairly slowly, objects in the field of view move rapidly due to the satellites motion - which means extremely sophisticated real time image analysis. (Which a) I don't think is possible for a random image, and b) doesn't gain you much as any given point on the ground is only visible for a few seconds.)
You could, I imagine, precalculate the position of a known object at a known location you'll be looking at... But you still face the problem of it being in the field of view for only a fairly brief time. High resolution orbital cameras have a very narrow field of view - this is a limit imposed by physics. Unlike a star you can't 'stare' at a given location and average over a significant period.
Which really isn't as much of a problem as you might think - satellite tracks are predictable, and thus you pretty much know when it's going to be over. Detecting the laser doesn't give you any information you don't already have.
Because a drone capable of flying completely undetectable deep into someplace like Russia or China, conducting a recce mission, and returning doesn't actually exist, yet.
I didn't get that far in TFA, but Google Satview resolves down to about four inches -- at its max resolution, you can clearly see the striping on two-lane highways.
I doubt it's anywhere near the best available.
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
I couldn't agree more, actually.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Well if you have the specifications of the craft, why don't you share them with us all? The reality here is no-one here knows the capability of this piece of kit, but for 634 billion I would hazard guess that the capabilities are substantial.
The other thing is there are multiple satellites so I would also guess that they are using some sort of method to combine the output of them to enhance the results.
I guess they will use it though.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
That while your privacy is being taken away rapidly, that you all just start a political debate. Considering I'm usually marked off-topic..
As usual though.. no one seems to be bothered to do anything about it.. can just see complaints and arguments on here. If you're all going to act like lambs, expect to end up in the slaughterhouse!
Time for a smart-person's "howto" about avoiding (or deterring) surveillance from satellites (that doesn't include other methods, like being tailed).
Once we have the light-bending cloaking technology suitable for human use, that may be one route. But realistically, spies evade surveillance all the time... and we can learn from their tricks.
SAP and SCI are obviously above top secret.
You can deny it all you want, with nonsense
about how compartments aren't really "above",
but any reasonable interpretation is that
they are in fact above top secret.
More restrictions, more background checking,
a subset of top secret people qualified...
The only reasonable conclusion that that SAP
and SCI are above top secret.
The constant denial is completely silly.
Do you know for certain what they have up there?
FWIW, I have a friend who was sent on a mission behind lines in Vietnam to take out a number of tanks which had been located with satellite pix. For some stupid reason, the mission was not called off, even when it had been seen the tanks had moved.
Regardless, if they could see tanks then, they can see your Prince Albert now.
In another words I and my playboy model can sunbathe in the nude on the roof of my apartment again?
Please do -- I just love watching girl-on-girl stuff.