Russia Mandates Free Software For Public Schools

Glyn Moody writes "After running some successful pilots, the Russian government has decided to make open source the standard for all schools. If a school doesn't want to use the free software supplied by the government, it has to buy commercial licenses using its own funds. What's the betting Microsoft starts slashing its prices in Russia?"

Comments

In Soviet Russia

[mfh]

Microsoft is no more!!!!

Dammit, I'm moving.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[Yetihehe]

In soviet russia, government controls microsoft.

Re:In Soviet Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

software frees you!

Re:In Soviet Russia

[ZiggyStardust1984]

In corporate america, microsoft controls goverment.

More proof

[Reikk]

More proof that Russia is going back to the old ways of the Soviet Union

Re:More proof

[Erikderzweite]

Going back to Soviet Union? By slashing a monopoly and directing the money towards their own developers and encouraging competition as opposed to paying a foreign corporation which is already known to sue people in Russia?
Help me here...

Re:More proof

[Captain Spam]

Maybe the GP meant it in the sense of that Microsoft will now no doubt pull out the old "zomg open sores is SOCIALIST!!11!1!" chestnut, only this time with "SEE?!?/?1! IT IS AN U DIDNT BELEIVE US!!1!" to back it up.

Re:More proof

[Ethanol-fueled]

Good news to be sure, but how do you know that the money will go towards developers or even back to the people and not towards some government official's Mercedes or vacation home?

Re:More proof

[PPH]

In a way, this is going back to the Soviet economic system.

In the USA (and other 'free' market economies), the principle that a manufacturer or distributor 'owns' a market is a pretty well established idea. Even though you and I are the 'market' and the idea of someone owning us, even in a narrow sense, harkens back to the days before the Emancipation Proclamation.

The Soviet^H^H^H^H^H^HRussian government is taking control of the market for O/Ss. Clearly a case of nationalizing private property.

Re:More proof

[Weaselmancer]

Yeah, that could only happen in Russia. Our elected officials would never do such a thing.

Re:More proof

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Maybe the GP meant it in the sense of that Microsoft will now no doubt pull out the old "zomg open sores is SOCIALIST!!11!1!" chestnut, only this time with "SEE?!?/?1! IT IS AN U DIDNT BELEIVE US!!1!" to back it up.

If your argument stands on its own, it shouldn't require you to belittle your opponents. Last I checked (at the risk of providing an opening for a moronic joke), MS is not staffed by immature 11 year olds.

I'm neither here nor there on the merits of your argument, but please argue with facts, not some hideously exaggerated caricature of your opponent.

Re:More proof

[Tikkun]

Microsoft is staffed by people that do, among other things, throw chairs at people, describe open source as "cancer", and want to "$#%^&*@ kill Google". I'd say the poster isn't exaggerating that much.

Re:More proof

[Erikderzweite]

Some of the money will surely get to Alt Linux company. As for the rest -- I'd rather give it a try.

On a side note -- how many houses does this McCayne guy have?

Re:More proof

[FluffyWithTeeth]

What? They're not taking control of a market, the education department is simply just no longer buying software for itself. It's a cost cutting measure, not nationalisation.

They're not stopping anyone else from buying software, and I imagine private schools will continue to use microsoft software.

Re:More proof

[PPH]

If the US Federal Gov't ever steps between the local school districts (the 'market') and textbook publishers (the 'owners' of that market), even if Federal funds are at stake, the publishers scream 'Communism!'.

Re:More proof

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because the Education department there doesn't want to foot the bill for proprietary licensed software they are being Soviet? This isn't about forcing anyone to use Open Source, this is about cutting costs and using what works at the same time. Also note in the summary that they are giving schools the choice of either using Open Sourced software or the school themselves footing the bill for proprietary software. The public school system is a Government operated entity and therefore the Government has the final say. It's no different than in the USA, where Government (Federal or Local) education laws influence public schools. Why should the Government have to buy proprietary software licenses if they think it's cost effective and productive to use a cheaper alternative?

Re:More proof

[theolein]

You Americans have a habit of screaming "Communism" at anything vaguely related towards state aid/state control without really knowing what Communism is.

Re:More proof

[Rasperin]

Actually, if you consider it we are very quite socialist. We have public schools, laws forcing hospitals to provide aide when a patient enters in critical condition. They bail companies out when they screw up. We have social services like welfare, wic, &c coming out of the ass. Government services which make up a decent portion of the populations jobs (see: military, see: cops, see: politics &c) and fund our economy. To end my causation abruptly, those crying Communism every step of the way need to remove our military, our public schools, and a bunch of other things they have come to rely on to protect them and aide them.

Re:More proof

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Sigh. At the risk of further Troll mods:

1. Even the (disputed) reports of Ballmer throwing a chair never indicated he threw it at anybody, merely "across the room, hitting a table in his office." With only one witness (a man who was leaving for Google), and Ballmer denying it, even that much is not really confirmed.
2. Many open source licenses do behave rather similarly to a cancer (though admittedly, the characterization contains grossly unfair pejorative connotations). I'd think virus would be a more appropriate characterization, (with two notable exceptions, cancers aren't transmissible in any significant way), though admittedly pejorative, but there's an argument to be made.
3. See point 1. Single witness, with his own reasons to lie.

Please, attack Microsoft on legitimate issues (e.g. prior extreme anticompetitive behavior, and incomplete reform), not pointless ad hominem attacks.

Re:More proof

[negRo_slim]

Microsoft is staffed by people that do, among other things, throw chairs at people, describe open source as "cancer", and want to "$#%^&*@ kill Google". I'd say the poster isn't exaggerating that much.

Well one could say that having 'passionate' people is an asset even if they be a tad on the impulsive side. One could also say choosing the terms 'cancer and '"$#%^&*@' to be justified when they are a perceived threat to your business and you wish to instill that fact within the company by using such exaggerated language.

Re:More proof

[Godji]

The fact that your government is as corrupt as their government (what government isn't?) doesn't make the problem go away. It's ok to critisize others when you have that problem too, as long as you acknowledge it. My 2 eurocents.

Re:More proof

[Anonymous Coward]

That sounds like the talk of a commie...

Re:More proof

[michrech]

He's not sure. He'll have a staffer get back to you.

Re:More proof

[Bert64]

However, even these "cancerous" open source licenses are considerably better for the end user than virtually all proprietary licenses.

Compare:
You can use this software any way you want, and distribute it however you like so long as you distribute the source code in the same way you received it.
if you To:
You can use this software in a limited number of ways on a limited number of systems, you cannot redistribute it at all and don't get to look at the source code.

If you think licenses like the GPL are restrictive, then you must really hate proprietary software even more.

Re:More proof

[dwarg]

Textbooks are probably the single largest waste of school funds, after sports (nothing against sports but that's another comment). Bad teachers use textbooks as a crutch to hide their own ignorance on their subject while letting the book do their job. They also teach students bad habits by getting all their data from a single source, generally not even a very accurate source.

In the United States a move to open source would be nice but I would prefer a move away from textbooks and toward better teachers that teach their students how to research their topics. Research is a much easier task with the internet than it has been in the past with projects like Google's book search and Amazon's A9 make it much easier to incorporate real books into said research. But such a move would be strongly opposed by both the teachers unions and the book publishers. And as such hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of actually happening.

--
I'm a glass half full kind of guy.

Re:More proof

[marcosdumay]

It will just not go into some corrupt useless aquisition. If it instead go to some other corrupt useless aquisition, the situation didn't get any worse. Now, if it goes to some usefull aquisition (even if also corrupt), the russian people will gain.

There is simply no downside. Even if everything goes wrong, they won't be any worse. I guess there is some chance that something will fail to go wrong.

Re:More proof

[ShadowRangerRIT]

I actually favor open source over the alternative, but there is nothing morally wrong with wanting to develop with a closed source philosophy. It's up to consumers to pick their poison. From Microsoft's point of view they have a legitimate reason to dislike the GPL, in that inclusion (accidental or otherwise) of GPL code is a danger to their business model.

Re:More proof

[Petrushka]

Many open source licenses do behave rather similarly to a cancer (though admittedly, the characterization contains grossly unfair pejorative connotations). I'd think virus would be a more appropriate characterization, (with two notable exceptions, cancers aren't transmissible in any significant way),

That would be a tolerable analogy for licences generally, as exactly the same applies to every proprietary licence. I'd be happier if people comparing, say, the GPL to a "virus" were also comparing, say, every other licence that has ever been written.

You want to alter or redistribute Microsoft's software? Well, you can't unless you agree to some licence terms (assuming that Microsoft offers any). So your release is infected by someone else's licensing terms, so the "virus" has been spread. Only in this case it's likely to be a nasty virus.

Re:More proof

[jonbryce]

OK, how about the fact that he dances about the stage doing monkey impersonations and shouting "Developers developers developers developers developers"?

Re:More proof

[roguetrick]

There is a major problem with calling it a cancer, and that is in context. You can't call open source a cancer and proprietary software healthy cells. This is due to proprietary software's inability to grow and intermingle. Maybe if you call proprietary software a tumor, GPL could be just a more aggressive cancer that turns everything into wonderful goodness, while BSD is a healthy cell.

While the virus idea works better, the whole premise is just silly, pejorative, and flawed. Highlighting Balmer's stupidity in saying it works just fine in showing Microsoft has a screwball for a CEO.

Re:More proof

[fabs64]

Actually, if you consider it we are very quite socialist.

Compared to who? Estonia?

Don't get me wrong, the U.S. is clearly a mixed economy (a term for some reason out of favour). But it seems to be a lot more right leaning than the rest of the first world.

Re:More proof

[symbolset]

Please, attack Microsoft on legitimate issues (e.g. prior extreme anticompetitive behavior, and incomplete reform), not pointless ad hominem attacks.

You're not from around here, are you?

Incomplete reform? I think you meant "continuing current extreme anticompetitive behavior", and omitted "expected future extreme anticompetetive behavior." The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Or, as a famed technology leader once said:

"I once preached peaceful coexistence with Windows. You may laugh at my expense -- I deserve it." Jean-Louis Gassée, former CEO, BeOS

Re:More proof

[turbidostato]

"In a way, this is going back to the Soviet economic system."

Bullshit.

The education ministry is a software consumer just as any other entity not devoted to software production. They are just stating their conditions for a product from the market, just as any other private held company would do in any free market.

I can't see how the Russian education ministry asking the market (Microsoft, Red Hat, Oracle, Canonical...) for open source software is any more "communist" than NY Yellow Cab Co. asking the market (Ford, GM, Honda, BMW...) for yellow cars.

Re:More proof

[rtb61]

Hmm, interesting, you liken infringing upon someone else's code, as some how them infecting you, talk about blaming the victim.

Lets be quite clear, proprietary code is the cancer, it eats up all code and ideas, patents and copyrights them preventing any one else from using them at all. It strives to achieve a monopoly and kill off all opposition regardless of the damage done. Not only that it stifles competition in coding quality, resulting in coding infections running rampant across networks, a weakening of the fitness for purpose of the code. See, a digital cancer.

Now open source represent actual healthy competition and evolution of the most secure, reliable and usable code. It allows a healthy diverse technological digital ecosystem to grow and flourish. It promotes 'open' and 'equal' access to all code resources, healthy and vital companies thrive in that environment. Of course they only thing that suffers is those cancerous old proprietary companies who find they are no longer able to implement monopolistic practices to starve out the vital elements of a healthy industry. Just like any tumorous growth, once effective treatment begins, in the case Free Open Source Software, first growth stops and, then the influence of the proprietary cancer shrinks and it either reverts to become a healthy part of the industry or it dies off and disappears all together.

See Free Open Source Software - equates to healthy technological development and closed source proprietary software is without doubt the cancer.

Re:More proof

[MemoryDragon]

That is one thing about the USA, that they donÂt have any clue what communism really is. The term has ben scapeogoated and misused so many times in the USA without people really knowing that it is basically used for everything which is not in the USA.
In other words the McCarthy era had one effect, they brainwashed the people about the term communism so much that nowadays they dont even know what it is!
If you want to blame somone then tell openly he/she is a communist/socialist no matter what he/she really is, works everytime in the USA ;-)

Re:More proof

[SL Baur]

Last I checked (at the risk of providing an opening for a moronic joke), MS is not staffed by immature 11 year olds.

Staff or management? See my malware journal entry. Somebody is immature in there.

Re:More proof

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed ! Like the US had a tiny little federal government that has little control over state matters !

Re:More proof

[SL Baur]

Oh God! I love the smell of astroturf in the morning, especially coming from a brand new user.

Even the (disputed) reports of Ballmer throwing a chair never indicated he threw it at anybody, merely "across the room, hitting a table in his office."

Hmmm, astroturf... "disputed", huh?

Please, attack Microsoft on legitimate issues (e.g. prior extreme anticompetitive behavior, and incomplete reform), not pointless ad hominem attacks.

More astroturf. When are you guys going to stop lying about the patents you're going to sue us for, but will not tell us what they are?

I never used to care much about Microsoft, always considering them a toy system that no one in his or her right mind would ever use, but I kept that opinion to myself. I also went out of my way to support the guys who wanted a native XEmacs on Microsoft Windows NT.

Since you have declared war[1], I will not ignore it. Stop attacking us, ShadowRangerRIT Microsoft dude. We're not a bunch of spineless John McCains and we will fight back. Microsoft is NOT the innocent party here and you have done things well beyond those you listed.

[1] Rigged benchmarks in the 90s, funding SCOs bogus lawsuit, your totally fictional Linux to Microsoft "case studies", ...

Re:More proof

[setagllib]

Well, that's the idea. The proliferation of the GPL encourages a more open software market on the whole, by forcing companies to either compete (by reproducing code under a different license) or cooperate (by using GPL code and releasing their improvements). Either way, everyone benefits to some degree. That's why we have Linux.

BSD, MIT, etc. licenses exist for those who want to improve the market by lowering production costs rather than encouraging competition. That's why we have OSX.

comply

[Anonymous Coward]

or gulag you go

aren't we talking about russia?

[circletimessquare]

i think it would be more of hassle trying get a linux distro, than a free available-everywhere pirate of a windows os

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Matt Perry]

i think it would be more of hassle trying get a linux distro, than a free available-everywhere pirate of a windows os

I know. It's so difficult to find a linux distribution these days. Ever since linux distros had to go underground I have to search the far dark corners of the internet to find a working download. If I want a copy locally, I have to go to the seedy part of town and down some dark alleyway whispering to the dealer who will get me my linux fix. Oh! If only linux were freely available from universities, computer geeks, and the internet!

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Erikderzweite]

As Russian government wanted to go to the WTO badly, they have taken vast steps towards eliminating computer piracy. So a pirate version of Windows is still relatively easy to get, but so are Linux distros. The people's inertia will still hold windows share high though. It is a great move to offer free software in schools to overcome this inertia.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[theaveng]

I have an old AMD K5 laptop, currently running Windows 98. Will Linux run on that? Which dark alley should I explore to locate it?

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Kiaser Zohsay]

i think it would be more of hassle trying get a linux distro, than a free available-everywhere pirate of a windows os

I know. It's so difficult to find a linux distribution these days. Ever since linux distros had to go underground I have to search the far dark corners of the internet to find a working download. If I want a copy locally, I have to go to the seedy part of town and down some dark alleyway whispering to the dealer who will get me my linux fix. Oh! If only linux were freely available from universities, computer geeks, and the internet!

s/dark corners/bittorrent/g

There, fixed that for ya.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[AJWM]

I have an old AMD K5 laptop, currently running Windows 98. Will Linux run on that?

It will, but depending on the memory you might have to back a few versions to get a distro to fit. My first Linux box had a K5 processor, and for years I used an IBM laptop with a P-166 and 48 MB RAM with Linux. For that matter I've still got a couple of old desktop P-166/64M boxes doing firewall and mail server duty (overkill, but the price was right).

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at Distrowatch, download and burn a few CDs (granted this takes a while, but you're not actually "exploring" during this time), and spend 10 minutes trying them out. Total time spent dealing with Linux at the computer should be around 30 mins.

A few examples for machines with limited resources - Damn Small Linux, Puppy Linux, KNOPPIX.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess so.  Linux keeps my old athlon 800 working just fine and dandy.

That's if I keep using just fvwm tho.  If i were to use any of the fancy desktop (kde/gnome) stuff it'd probably crawl like a snail on a tar barrel.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Talderas]

Are you taking ample precautions to avoid the grue?

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Anonymous Coward]

ub alternate edition

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Just Some Guy]

If only linux were freely available from universities, computer geeks, and the internet!

When I wanted to install RedHat 4.something, I went to see if they had it in my university's library. Joy! They did! Unfortunately, the librarian refused to let me check it out because I "might install it on my own computer, which would be illegal." When I finally demonstrated that it would be OK, they still refused to let me leave the library with it, although I was welcome to bring a stack of floppies to copy the CD onto (as this was before CD burners became common).

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Dan Ost]

That ranks right up there with librarians that wouldn't demagnetize the anti-theft strip in your library books if they had a CD in the back cover because it might erase it (would it have even damaged floppies?).

I always had to remember to drop those books off at the drive through so that I wouldn't set off the alarms walking into the building.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Korin43]

Fedora or Ubuntu should both work fine. Just use the XFCE versions.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[eeek77]

(All together now)

YES!!!

Damn Small Linux (DSL)
Puppy Linux
Tinyme (spinoff of PCLinuxOS)
Feather Linux
NimbleX (haven't tried that one)
xpud

Just a slice from my experiences. DSL is probably the best of these, in my opinion, if you know what the heck you're doing (which I don't).

If you were being facetious, sorry. I just had to jump at the chance to display a little of my knowledge.

Re:aren't we talking about russia?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been kicked out of a library for burning a CD, for some reason she thought that all burnt CDs were pirate copies of something

It looks like....

[alexborges]

It begins in Russia.

Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[GuloGulo]

The confusion between these two types of software is not trivial.

According to TFA, it is being mandated that "free" software be used, and open source isn't even mentioned (in the translated article, I don't speak russian, sorry).

"By the end of 2009, all school computers will be installed package of free software (PSPO). This is how transfers Prime-TASS, today announced Minister of Communications and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation Igor Shchyogolev at the plenary session Information Society and the modern technologies of information in the international exhibition InfoCom-2008."

"The Minister also noted that by 2010 it is expected that the number of computers in schools will reach a million. According to Schegoleva, after three years of school will be able to make a choice: pay royalties to use software products, buying them at their own expense, or go to the domestic free software."

Nothing in there about "open source" submitter, so which is it?

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[shvytejimas]

The automated translation did not distinguish the exact meaning of "free" in that sentence. The word used in the russian article was "svobodnovo", which means free as in liberty. Free as in beer would have been "bezplatnovo" - literally "payless".

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Erikderzweite]

It is free as in speech, according to the article. Open source isn't mentioned.

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Windows_NT]

"Shchyogolev"
free copy of Vista if you can pronounce it!
Also, I bet they Free and OpenSource are synonymous. Because to think of it. What free OS isnt OpenSource?

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[andreyvul]

Shchyegolev, not Shchyogolev.
  does _not_ contain (/yo/, but /o/ after ).

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[temcat]

" " (from the original article) is free/libre software, not gratis or open source software.

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Windows_NT]

yea, but how do you pronounce it?
shee-e'-golev ? (the ' is my emphasis character)

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[ArsonSmith]

Wouldn't that be "free as in shoes" then?

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Anonymous Coward]

It does not say FREE it says it better it says OPEN - as in OPEN SOURCE (ÐÐÐÐÑ ÑÐобоÐноÐо ÐÑоÐÑÐммноÐо обÐÑÐÐÑÐнÐÑ)

by the looks of it it will be mandriva based.

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[HTH NE1]

Free as in beer would have been "bezplatnovo" - literally "payless".

I'll remember that next time I need new shoes.

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Erikderzweite]

In German his name would probably be transliterated as "Schtschoegolew".
And don't bother, I can't recall a single Russian name that English speakers can pronounce correctly :)

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[MartinSchou]

Rather unrelated question, but I'm curious.

What does the suffix "novo" mean in Russian? Or is it mere a coincidence?

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[jc42]

The word used in the russian article was "svobodnovo", which means free as in liberty.

But, but ... Ronald Reagan assured us that Russian doesn't have a word for freedom.

(You can find lots of good reading on this topic by asking google for "doesn't have a word for" and/or "has no word for", with the quotes. Many of the matches are from linguists discussing the ways in which this phrase is (mis)used for various misleading purposes. My favorite recent instance was George Bush's claim that French has no word for entrepreneur. ;-)

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[n dot l]

Gah. This would be easier if I could type Cyrillic characters in Slashdot comments. Anyway.

The first character is a sh-ch sound, where the sh dominates the barely pronounced ch to the point where most westerners wouldn't even hear it as distinct from the 'sh'. The 'e' is going to be pronounced 'yeh', but the 'y' part is very short and the 'eh' bit is short as well. The rest depends on where the stressed syllable is and I'm not sure of that. It's either Shchye-gah-le'-vuh or Shchye-go'-leh-vuh (I'm pretty sure it's the first one). The 'ah' is pronounced like the a in 'far', only shorter. The 'uh' at the end is like u in 'hut', but also shorter. And that's a 'soft' l, which means you pronounce it with your tongue a bit higher in your mouth, sort of like you're making the 'y' sound at the same time (if that makes any sense at all).

Disclaimer: I'm not Russian. I'm just studying it. Hopefully a native speaker will correct me if I've fucked it up. I'll correct myself if I hear it on the radio some time today (internet radio is an awesome way to pick up a language quicker).

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, no it doesn't, your post is garbage characters, and you're an idiot.

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but as shvytejimas mentions, in Russian (which I do speak), there is absolutely NO confusion - "svobodnovo" has absolutely zero to do with price. It's like saying fish and hotdog. "Svobodnovo", in the context of software, has all the connotations of "libre", as Stallman likes to use. We don't have the difference in English, pretty much all of the other 3-5 (depending on fluency requirements...) languages I speak do have this difference...

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[Windows_NT]

looks like no one gets a free Vista CD!
Try again next week when we try to figure out what Ballmer's underwear color is .. And the prize??
The prize will be freetickets to go see anyone named Shchye-go'-leh-vuh!!!
Good luck!

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[n dot l]

The ending "ovo" (spelled "ogo") is used on a class of adjectives (those modifying singular masculine or neuter nouns in I forget which grammatical case). The 'n' comes in as part of converting the noun "svoboda" (freedom) into an adjective.

Re:Is it "free" or is it "open source"?

[andreyvul]

This would be easier if I could type Cyrillic characters in Slashdot comments.
Agreed. Slashdot removed the shch and the yo characters for some reason.
Anyways, I am Russian, (apart from the fact that my Russian grammar is severely broken,) so I do know how to speak it.

Wise They Are

[curmudgeon99]

I'm probably one of the few slashdotters who has lived in Russia. I will say that I met a ton of very smart people who are breaking from their national heritage in being hard-working. A university degree from Russia now and has always equated with a Masters in the US. They are just smart in not buying into the crap that Microsoft sells. There are so many entire technology stacks--just as in the Java world, not in .NET--that can be had without ever spending a thin dime on software. Face it--nobody is ever going to pay when there are free alternatives. And though as a software developer this eats into my bread and butter, I know they are right.

Re:Wise They Are

[Hyppy]

A university degree from Russia now and has always equated with a Masters in the US.

Is that so?

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

breaking from their national heritage in being hard-working

They created an empire with more surface area than any empire since Ghengis Khan, created the periodic table, defeated Napolean and Hitler, sent the first man into space, and challenged the US for global supremacy for fifty years. I think hard work _is_ their national heritage. The lazy Russian stereotype may have been accurate in the dying days of the Soviet Union, but it is by no means the norm for Russia.

Re:Wise They Are

[curmudgeon99]

Yes, it is. If you look at the requirements to receive a degree in Russia, it requires the amount of work that would be required in a US Masters.

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

Face it--nobody is ever going to pay when there are free alternatives.

Thats why Linux is kicking Microsofts ass right now amirite?

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not have read many foreign resumes. :-)
One year of experience also equates to five.

Seriously, I contacted my state's legal department and IT execs about this 2 years ago. You'd be absolutely amaze how they waste tax dollars. The techies I talked to said they even presented and recommended opensource email servers but the VP of technology for the state of SC said Microsoft Exchange anyways. Even though opensource handles something like 10x the volume everyday that microsoft email servers (inclding old ms mail) do.

The allure of OpenSource is not saving on ILC but future growth. The innovation and advancement is not happening in Redmond but everywhere in the world. The bazaar is better than a cathedral because you can practice cooperation and are not forced to worship a false god.

Re:Wise They Are

[Reality Master 201]

, e .

Re:Wise They Are

[morgan_greywolf]

A university degree from Russia now and has always equated with a Masters in the US.

So, ummm.....

In Soviet Russia, University degree Master YOU!!!

(SCNR)

Re:Wise They Are

[Splab]

Face it--nobody is ever going to pay when there are free alternatives.

Really? We pay for our database software, quite a lot of people would argue there are free alternatives, might not be just as good, but they are free!

Well you can keep your free alternatives until they are as good.

Re:Wise They Are

[jellomizer]

Exactly and there are more companies then just Microsoft. Most of them are actually willing to support their application and fix bugs for you. Also a lot of the Non-Free software the company can afford to pay for patent rights and license other software to actually make it work correctly. There have been times in Open Source just because it was Open Source and wasn't willing to pay some money they had to take features out. Because of the Patent or License. You can complain about the problems with Licenses and Patents but they are here and will probably stay for a while longer... In the mean time if you not interestest in the Politics/Religion of Open Source you will just shill out the cash and buy software that does what you need it to do.

Re:Wise They Are

[lgarner]

Then you need to reconsider your definition of "alternative". If it's not as good, then it's not really an alternative, is it?

Re:Wise They Are

[Windows_NT]

In Soviet Russia, the treadmill rides you!

Re:Wise They Are

[curmudgeon99]

Enjoy it while it lasts. I recall back in 2003 when a company I worked for forked over $8,000 for a copy of WebSphere Studio Integration Edition. And now we use free Eclipse... A major push of corporations this year is finding ways to get on open source free alternatives...

Re:Wise They Are

[flyingsquid]

Yeah, but the serfs under the Czars? What a bunch of slackers.

Re:Wise They Are

[zapakh]

Thats why Linux is kicking Microsofts ass right now amirite?

What we need is an ad campaign in which Seinfeld meets Torvalds. That should do it.

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

the russian mafia is far from lazy they are very thorough oh shit GOTTA G

Re:Wise They Are

[qw0ntum]

(citation needed)

I don't doubt you, but could you please provide an illustrative example?

Re:Wise They Are

[bendodge]

Yes, they work very hard and have a lot of smart people, but they seem to have some major gullibility issues when it comes to politics.

Re:Wise They Are

[gbjbaanb]

Software costs money to make, it basically after a certain amount of time (depending on it's complexity) free software that mimics your software will show up

you mean Linux is going to mimic Vista? That really will mean Linux is not ready for the desktop!

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

That's true of any large group of people.

Re:Wise They Are

[Risen888]

Thats why Linux is kicking Microsofts ass right now amirite?

Yes. Youareright.

Re:Wise They Are

[famebait]

More like a different experience than the west.

When Russia has been great and proud, it has been under
totalitarian rule (both under czars and portions of the
soviet era), and to many Putin seems to be restoring it.

Experience with democracy has been fleeting and disappointing,
There is no centuries old tradition of civil liberties and
people's power, only varying standards of living and international
influence, so they still look to a string leader like all
countries used to up until a couple of centuries ago.
Add to that americas soaring debt and fascist china being
the fastest growing economy anyone has ever seen, and it's
easy to get the masses behind a "powerful russia" campaign.

Of course the reasons for this experience are far more complex
and not actually particularly tied to the specific systems
used in the 'great and powerful' periods, and I certainly do
believe a mature democracy would serve them a lot better
in the long run. But try to explain that to the man and woman
on the street who has experienced some trials and broken promises
since the breakdown of communism that equal nothing America
has seen since the civil war.

And as for hard work: the soviet system didn't exactly
nurture private enterprise, true. But acedemic tradition in in
Russia has been top notch and extremely disciplined not just
before but during the entire soviet era. The common worker
too simply _had_ to work hard, even if there wasn't so much
worldy reward to be gained from working _efficiently_.
But if you already know how to work hard, that can be fixed,
especially with the generation change they've since received.

Re:Wise They Are

[$criptah]

I did live in those areas and I can fully backup your statement with one small exception.

A university degree form a prestigious Russian school has always equated with Masters in the U.S. Just like in the U.S. there are many schools that let you slack and "earn" a degree by spending X number of years behind classroom doors. But that's not the point of the post. You're totally right about the number of smart, dedicated individuals who can totally think for themselves and decide what is necessary to move forward.

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forgot Kin Dza Dza - koo koo koo koo koo koo koo koo koo chatle koo koo koo koo koo koo koo!

Re:Wise They Are

[tftp]

they seem to have some major gullibility issues when it comes to politics

It's all in the past, nobody in Russia wants "European democracy" any more; thanks for the lesson, though - it won't be soon forgotten. Russian form of democracy now features strong, charismatic - but elected - leaders, and this seems to work best. It's practically identical to Bush's years in the USA, with the only exception that Putin and Medvedev care about their country and act in interest of the people. Take the 13% flat income tax, for example.

Re:Wise They Are

[the_B0fh]

How many of the top 10 largest (petabyte sized, or approaching) are running on commercial databases, and how many are on postgresql again? Wasn't there a slashdot article just a few weeks ago? Hmm, one link I have is http://www.dbms2.com/2008/08/25/greenplum-is-in-the-big-leagues/

Re:Wise They Are

[temcat]

Thank you, as a Russian, I had a good laugh at that.

Nobody in Russia has had European democracy, so your "any more" is out of place.

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I do not know how typical my example would be but I got an undergraduate degree in mathematics from a Russian university. When I graduated I had 400 hours of classes, it took 5 years, and we had classes every Saturday, as well. When I came to get a PhD here in the States, I did not have to take a single graduate course and all my classes were `Directed Reading'.

Re:Wise They Are

[wmorse]

There are more of us than you think....

I love this whole Russian Linux thing: Armada . It is about not relying too much on software that is produced in one country.
It is also about Russia getting the G7 nations and certain corporations to lay off harping about IP. The incident in Perm was not at Microsoft's insistence, but the government can say that they are "doing" something about piracy.
It may also have to do with putting a little Russian soul into the OS and building national pride?

Well played! Da Zdravstvuyet Russkij Linux!

Re:Wise They Are

[ozbird]

They ... created the periodic table

Yes, Dmitri Mendeleev was Russian - but saying "Russians invented the periodic table" is like saying "Germans invented the theory of relativity". Credit where credit is due.

Re:Wise They Are

[TheModelEskimo]

Citation needed. Especially considering the fact that there are wide discrepancies in the quality of education in the U.S. And double-especially considering the place of bribes in the Russian educational system.

Re:Wise They Are

[TheModelEskimo]

You seem to be indicating, perhaps unwittingly, that what they are really good at is authoritarianism.

Re:Wise They Are

[Alistar]

If you are doing graduate/PhD work you shouldn't be sitting in a classroom for 8 hours a day while professors cram words into your brain.

Masters and PhD work are meant to apply the knowledge you learned in undergrad (sometimes in seemingly useless ways but still).

Masters and PhD work is all about what you can do and how you present it to others.
The professor that you work under is meant to guide and direct you, not tell you everything.

Re:Wise They Are

[MeanSquare]

A university degree from Russia now and has always equated with a Masters in the US.

I don't think this is generally true. I have a couple Russian friends who I met in a US masters program. They were at a disadvantage coming in. They were both capable people and they managed to get by, but they had a difficult time catching up.

The problem was that, at the Universities they had attended in Moscow, cheating and bribery were rampant. I got the impression that one of them had been accustomed to cheating all the time. I mean on every exam.

Given the many contributions Russians have made in diverse academic disciplines, there is obviously some very good education happening in Russia. But I'm pretty sure that such a wide sweeping statement about the superiority of Russian education is unjustified.

Re:Wise They Are

[MeanSquare]

Is that you Neil?!

In your high school geology class you probably were taught that all life on earth exists in a paper-thin shell called the biosphere, which is trapped between thousands of miles of dead rock underfoot, and cold dead radioactive empty space above. Companies that sell OSes exist in a sort of technosphere. Underneath is technology that has already become free. Above is technology that has yet to be developed...

Re:Wise They Are

[Dreen]

Are you from USA? Because if yes, your statement is incredibly ironic.

Re:Wise They Are

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh the ultimate irony when Slashdot defends the Warez scene and pirates in general.

Nobody is ever going to use free software when they can get Microsoft for free via thepiratebay or any other place.

Re:Wise They Are

[shutdown -p now]

Russian form of democracy now features strong, charismatic - but elected - leaders, and this seems to work best.

Elected indeed! Those 113% in favor of Medvedev in some regions during the last presidential elections sure do mean something - the dead must be rising from their graves to go vote, or I don't know how else to explain it...

ith the only exception that Putin and Medvedev care about their country and act in interest of the people. Take the 13% flat income tax, for example.

You mean, the interests of the rich and the corporations, since that's who benefits most from flat income tax.

Re:Wise They Are

[Splab]

Your post makes little sense to me.

Are you saying that because top 10 largest databases (might be) are running PgSQL, I must be wrong because it's right for them, then it must be right for me?

As I've said time and time again, there are no FOSS databases that can compete with closed source software when it comes to fail over handling. PgSQL is an extremely nice full featured database, one thing it doesn't have - and most important to our organization - is hot standby option / clustered option. We don't care about petabyte sized databases, we care about speed and reliability.

Re:Wise They Are

[darkwhite]

breaking from their national heritage in being hard-working

Good to see you breaking from your national heritage in being a bigoted demagogue.

Re:Wise They Are

[the_B0fh]

As I've said time and time again, there are no FOSS databases that can compete with closed source software when it comes to fail over handling. PgSQL is an extremely nice full featured database, one thing it doesn't have - and most important to our organization - is hot standby option / clustered option. We don't care about petabyte sized databases, we care about speed and reliability.

What I am saying is that speed and reliability is important to petabyte databases too - I'm assuming here. So what is it that they are doing that you don't know about?

And who says postgresql doesn't have clustering? I'm not aware of a hotstandby option, but I do know you have a cluster of live machines, which, presumably, is better.

But really, look at big big database users, like yahoo, and google - they all use FOSS databases. Are you saying they do not care about speed/reliability/clustering/etc? What is it that they are doing that you're not considering?

Re:Wise They Are

[jaavaaguru]

Face it--nobody is ever going to pay when there are free alternatives.

Really?

I have colleagues who choose to use Windows rather than Linux, and Microsoft office and development tools rather than some of the freely available ones.

At home, I have two machines running OS X and one running Ubuntu. Things might be different if I had to obtain software for a whole room full of machines though.

So I think sometimes people are willing to pay when there are free alternatives.

Re:Wise They Are

[Reservoir Penguin]

The freshman curriculum for a math major (you pick your major when you submit your application) is (per week) 1) Mathematical Analysis: 4 hours of lectures, 4 hours of problem solving seminars 2) Higher Algebra: (Algebraic structures, vectors spaces and so on) 4 hours of lectures, 4 hours of problem solving seminars 3) Linear Algebra and Analytic Geometry: 2 hours of lectures, 2 hours of problem solving seminars 4) Number Theory: 2 hours of lectures, 2 hours of problem solving seminars 5) Theory of Algorithms: 2 hours of lectures, 2 hours of problem solving seminars 6) Introductory CS: 2 hours of lectures, 2 hours of labs 7) History of Russia: 2 hours of lectures, 2 hours of seminars 8) Physical education: 2 hours I've been to the US and I've never seen anything like that. And picking a math major is considered "slacking", if you are unfortunate enough to pick Physics major you get almost as much math + physics + killer LABS every day. During your third year you're supposed to find a working scientist and under his guidance produce a thesis. This is why the parent said that the degree is equivalent to US Masters.

Re:Wise They Are

[qw0ntum]

Thanks, that was very interesting!

Re:Wise They Are

[Splab]

Sorry but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Yahoo and Google do not have any mission critical data on those systems. Yes searching is important, but if a major clusterfuck happened they can just go get the data again. On top of that they are purely for reading data, MySQL replicates just fine for reading data, as long as you don't mind losing a couple of rows whenever a write master drops. This has been proven many times by big sites.

Regarding PgSQL; there are no native replication options, there are no native clustering options and they have many times stated they don't want to focus on it. This is just fine, their project, their decision. Other projects have tried making replication / clustering using PgSQL, but none work optimal, most work like MySQL where the slave is called a hot standby, but at best is warm - or using a middleware layer to control the cluster. Again this might work in some cases where you don't really care about your data - for instance search engines - if you lose your data you just go grab it again.

Highly intensive write applications with extremely critical data cannot rely on these parameters, doing so is downright insane. Talking about Petabyte sized databases must be doing the right thing is downright silly, if you have no idea about what they are doing with the data and how it arrives - and more importantly - what failure rate is acceptable you just can't compare it.

Re:Wise They Are

[dunkelfalke]

nothing especially russian about it

Obigatory

[Prien715]

In Soviet Russia, the gov't pwns Microsoft;)

Re:Obigatory

[Ngarrang]

Imagine Putin tea-bagging Gates.

Re:Obigatory

[XxtraLarGe]

In Soviet Russia, the gov't pwns Microsoft;)

In Soviet Russia, free software uses you!

Re:Obigatory

[gbjbaanb]

actually, in Soviet Russia, the military pwns the NSA.

(from an article in yesterdays /. about RedHat CEO: "Earlier in the year I was in Russia and RHEL is the most secure operating system certified by the Russian military, therefore there are applications for the Russian military and government that can only run on RHEL. The ironic thing about that is the reason it is so secure is because SE Linux, the core security technology for Linux, was written by the NSA in the US." )

First the military, then the education system, next government ... then business?

Re:Obigatory

[Ngarrang]

Troll?

Troll?!

Humor is lost on some people.

Slash prices?

[DoofusOfDeath]

What's the betting Microsoft starts slashing its prices in Russia?

I wouldn't bet on that. It's far cheaper for Microsoft to just give very, very big campaign contributions to Russian legislators.

Re:Slash prices?

[piggydoggy]

It's far cheaper for Microsoft to just give very, very big campaign contributions to Russian legislators.

You're a bit confused. Bribing the Russian legislators wouldn't do much good because they're not really holding much power.

Re:Slash prices?

[morgan_greywolf]

Pffft. In Soviet (and Non-Soviet) Russia, Microsoft waits in a very long line to bribe the officials.

Re:Slash prices?

[Anonymous Coward]

no, bribery doesn't work well when dealing with governments. they tend to take all the money, then stab you in the back, and say to your face, "you, and what army! We've got [insert as applies; thermonuclear weapons; subs; legions of tanks!; x,xxx,xxx infantry]"

when corruption is that high in a democracy all you can count on from your native government is high taxes, subterfuge, and lies, and all you can count on from foreign governments is high tariffs subterfuge and lies.

sometimes tariffs are politely and quietly ignored, for the sake of global economic growth. the more jobs you bring a country the more you can trust their politicians to have a vested interest that bribery can buy.

microsoft has to face a huge tariff in europe, its called a 'value added tax' which is added to every consumer item instead of having a national income tax, quite a clever ploy, rather than having a tariff you have a flat tax on consumerism, making consumerism more costly.

America is way behind both europe and russia when it comes to economic growth ploys. and especially to japan, who jumped on the growth bandwagon that tech was early, but dropped the ball in the 90's and lost to china, america, and Taiwan. even germany got on the bandwagon with getting dresden plants from AMD.

yeah, japan was it in the 80's but sony couldn't manage to realize radios and TVs were going to be short margin devices, and glorified electric type writers would drive the late 90's and the 00's.

although america is definitely running out of money to drive a consumerist lifestyle. investors have moved to higher return on investment markets, ignoring the fundamental key to globalization is the expansion of the money and resource supply to greedy, ignorant short sighted individuals. which america is full of.

it comes from taking the cast offs from every place around the world that had cast offs to get rid of for generations. americans are less smart, they don't want to be brought to a situation of having to think for themselves unless they gain a sick perversion of being smarter than everyone else. that's why i spend 12 hours a day reading websites and learning more information, to be the guy who knows what's going on, in america where the bar is low, and easy for me to obtain elite knowledge.

it is a sick perversion understanding what's flawed with the world but not having an ounce of motivation to go out and fix it. fixing things is work, knowing things and being smart is fun.

ac for obvious reasons.

Re:Slash prices?

[jc42]

It's far cheaper for Microsoft to just give very, very big campaign contributions to Russian legislators.

Yeah, and that's pretty much their tactic in the US now, too, since they became one of the biggest "campaign contributors" back in the 2000 elections.

Anyway, slashing prices is difficult in a country where most "customers" get Windows for free. To beat that, MS would have to start paying people to use their software. Of course, for government agencies, it can be a bit more difficult to get away with using pirated software. Your records may be accessible to the politicians who are on the take, and they have ways of punishing people who don't buy from their campaign contributors.

But there may well be a bigger reason: Maybe the Russian government's IT folks are finally getting across the idea that there are serious problems with trusting any binary-only software that comes from a big American corporation. Consider the story discussed here a while back, about the fact that Vista (and apparently XP, too) will sometimes ignore config settings having to do with updates, and automatically update things even when you have explicitly told it not to. This is a giant "backdoor", as the security folks call it. Not only can the software you buy have all sorts of extra code in it that they didn't tell you about ("special for the Russian market"); Windows may at any time replace parts of your system with a new version that has even more "special" code tailored just for you. That's gotta be making a lot of people a bit nervous.

This nervousness is probably encouraged by the widespread interpretation of the 1982 Siberian pipeline explosion, as the result of sabotage by American software. That's an Australian site, but you can find lots of descriptions of this event online, and most of them give the same explanation. This story is a good illustration for why you don't want to run unanalyzable binaries in the controls for critical infrastructure. And maybe you don't want to run binary-only software anywhere. ("Think of the children" comes to mind here. ;-)

Note that "free" software is usually also open source. That means you can hire your own hackers to study the code, and remove any backdoors they find. And you can do clean compiles, to ensure that the binaries you're running actually correspond to the code. This should be sufficient to convince anyone with a grain of sense. We don't know whether access to the source code would have prevented the above explosion, but we can safely say that lack of the source code does pretty much prevent finding and fixing such problems.

Re:Slash prices?

[syousef]

Pffft. In Soviet (and Non-Soviet) Russia, Microsoft waits in a very long line to bribe the officials.

I bet Microsoft has even tried to patent the process.

Re:Slash prices?

[gzipped_tar]

Why? Just bribe the guys in front of you and profit!!!

Slash its prices?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft would have to give quite a slash to compete with free.

how much

[DKP]

wonder how much this would save the US

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Read: No Money

[Markvs]

Makes sense, as it's going to be hard to support schools with oil prices tanking. Russia has lost over $230 Billion USD in the last month, and it's not going to get better as oil prices remain flat or slide (perhaps to $40/barrel).

Re:Read: No Money

[Vicarius]

Russia's last few 3-year budget plans, as well as the ones coming up, were betting on $70-80 price and all excess is being put into a separate fund/account. Russia still has not spent its surplus of the oil money.

Re:Read: No Money

[Mikkeles]

'... all excess is being put into a separate fund/account.'

Yeah; Putin's, I bet.

Re:Read: No Money

[Risen888]

I wouldn't fret too much about the Russian economy. They're sitting squarely on top of the largest supply of natural gas on planet Earth. I think they'll make it through okay.

Re:Read: No Money

[shutdown -p now]

You Westerners need to learn already: "Putin" is spelled "Medvedev" these days. Not that there is any actual difference, but still...

Good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

If a school doesn't want to use the free software supplied by the government*, it has to buy commercial licenses using its own funds**

* the taxpayers
** the taxpayers

But seriously this is good, puts a little pressure on the budget while leaving schools free to make their decision. Good move.

You know what they will say now...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what people will say now if you use F/OSS: "What, are you communist or something?".

Of course, the same idiots have been saying this for a long time, but now they'll have something to point to.

It's too bad the US gets so hung up on political bullshit like this to the point that it really truly does get in the way of progress. Universal Health Care? No way, it's "socialism". Regulate the financial industry? Socialism again. Progressive taxation? Wealth redistribution. (Why isn't it called wealth redistribution when the rich are taking from the poor?) At first I thought "great news, maybe the US will see the advantage of this someday". But on reflection, I think this might set F/OSS adoption in the US back by decades.

Re:You know what they will say now...

[Erikderzweite]

Well, you have the democracy there -- vote for the government that supports free software. It is that simple :)

If a country like Russia is "converted" to free software, it will be a great news for the whole movement -- there are be many Russian programmers who will contribute greatly to the movement if the switch is made.

Re:You know what they will say now...

[ClosedSource]

"You know what people will say now if you use F/OSS: "What, are you communist or something?"."

Weren't they saying that already?

Re:You know what they will say now...

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir, are a stereotypical racist.

Re:You know what they will say now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, I agree completely that it is good for F/OSS in general. I just worry that the general US knee-jerk response will always automatically be opposition to anything that "communist" Russia promotes. Look at how the US reacted to the invasion of Georgia, relative to the rest of the world, for example. For the rest of the world, this is great news. For the backwater that the formerly progressive United States has become, I'm afraid reactionary elements will simply use this as more ammunition for their global misanthropy.

Re:You know what they will say now...

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't that technically 'class-ism' rather than racism?

Re:You know what they will say now...

[Anonymous Coward]

SAP ain't small town or lower class. They are integral to a lot of businesses (whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen).

People still think that artificial restriction of infinite goods are something that should be legally propped up as a business model, and anything other than that is "communism".

Re:You know what they will say now...

[CarpetShark]

I doubt it. The people saying things like that are small town lower class. The decision to use open source is made by people who run technology oriented businesses.

I'm pretty sure Microsoft officially waved the communist card against Linux at one point. But we all know they're trailer trash, so maybe that just backs up your argument.

Ponosov's Case

[ringm000]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponosov's_Case

Re:Ponosov's Case

[theaveng]

Good story. An innocent headmaster buys PCs that are preinstalled, but did not realize the PC seller has used illegal copies. The headmaster gets in trouble with the law for piracy.

Eventually the headmaster gets cleared, but he immediately organizes to push for Free software.... the result being that now Russian Schools no longer want Microsoft products. Only free products.

Karma's a _____, ain't it Microsoft?

Re:Ponosov's Case

[plague3106]

MS never appeared, and never intended to press charges. They even said they believed the headmaster didn't intentially violate their copyright. How's that karma biting them?

If anything, it's Russia that prosecuted the wrong guy that should be to blame.

Re:Ponosov's Case

[ringm000]

As far as I understand, in the US copyright violation is prosecuted in a civil action and the holder has to press charges. In Russia it can be prosecuted under civil as well as criminal law. It is an offense under the Criminal Code of Russia and the criminal prosecution does not have to depend on the victim pressing charges, much like e.g. in cases of battery or theft.

Yes, this is a rather stupid idea, and yes, cases like this are very rare.

Re:Ponosov's Case

[Anonymous Coward]

And microsoft is at fault there how?

from your link:

"On 3 February 2007, Microsoft Corporation's Russian office published a statement saying that Microsoft does not consider this case a malignant copyright violation, and Microsoft did not claim and would not claim in the future any civil suit against Ponosov.[12]"

at least point out a case where microsoft was actually being evil, not like theres a lack of them.

Re:Ponosov's Case

[syousef]

As far as I understand, in the US copyright violation is prosecuted in a civil action and the holder has to press charges.

Those FBI copyright warnings everyone skips are about criminal charges resulting in jail time, not just civil damages.

Re:Ponosov's Case

[panda cakes]

Few bits are wrong, namely: not an innocent headmaster, the guy kept using illegal software after getting an explicit warning from the local DA office (there is a letter with his signature confirming he understood the warning and is going to comply) and no, he was not cleared - appeal courts supported the original judgment, the guy is a felon.

Re:Ponosov's Case

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about the USA or Russia but in Sweden they cannot carge somebody with theft unless the victim want to.

How can someone violate copyright law when the entity holding the copyright does not claim a violation has taken place? Obviously Microsoft has agreed on that it was a violation, or Russian law is veyr weird indeed.

Re:Ponosov's Case

[jrumney]

I thought copyright violation became exclusively a criminal matter in the US with the introduction of the DMCA. Before that it was only a criminal matter if it involved interstate commerce or the postal system, or something along those lines.

Don't underestimate the dark side

[Locke2005]

What's the betting Microsoft starts slashing its prices in Russia?
Microsoft already pays people to use their search engine... I'm betting MS starts paying Russian schools to use their software!

In Putin's Russia...

[ACS Solver]

...all software is free because, really, who the hell buys it when the piracy industry is so well developed?

Microsoft OSs have a kill switch

[Animats]

Remember, Microsoft OSs have a "kill switch" implicitly built into Windows Update. If you use Windows Update, Microsoft has total control of your computers. That's not acceptable given Russia's renewed determination not to be under the control of the United States.

Even with Windows Update turned off, there are all those little things, like "codec downloads" and "DRM downloads" which can insinuate new Microsoft software onto a computer. That's unacceptable to a sovereign nation.

Re:Microsoft OSs have a kill switch

[denis-The-menace]

Actually, Even with Windows Update turned off, MS can still force in an update.

That what happened in Aug 2007

Re:Microsoft OSs have a kill switch

[Anonymous Coward]

What happened in Aug 2007?

Re:Microsoft OSs have a kill switch

[Anonymous Coward]

Kill switch would be a good thing. Then suddenly all sov^W russian computers stop working (hopefully not in unison though, that would probably make for a catastrophe), and the world would realize the american evil!

Re:Microsoft OSs have a kill switch

[Hatta]

Not only that, but you can't even block it with your hosts file.

In other news

[Mesa MIke]

the Russian Government announces bankruptcy, can't afford to buy supplies and software for schools.

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't see this. Russia has lots of raw materials that everyone in the world needs. In particular, lots of oil and gas that they ship to Europe.

Russia is doing very nicely. The same can't be said about the US, which has lived beyond it's means for many years now, borrowing to pay for the rich living style it has adopted after making so much money in WW2.

It's not impossible to see the US go down, in hock to China and Russia....

Illegal product dumping?

[pyrr]

What's the betting Microsoft starts slashing its prices in Russia?

It's hard to compete with free. In light of M$ slashing their prices in China to compete with pirated-retail versions of their software, would they be desperate enough in a bid to hold onto market share to practically give away software in order to compete with FOSS?

Moreover, they claim piracy of their products around the world costs them "billions of dollars". I assume that's calculated on the basis of US-retail prices translated into foreign exchange rates, and they seem to have a hard-and-fast notion of exactly what each copy of their software is worth in terms of intellectual property, profit margin, cost of materials, and so forth when they make such statements. I wonder, since they're so sure of what their product is worth, if they could be accused of illegally dumping their products in foreign markets. They'd obviously be selling them for less than they know/believe they're worth in able to compete.

Re:Illegal product dumping?

[Anonymous Coward]

Think of the children! Microsoft giving away these very very expensive programs for the good of our childrens learning!

Re:Illegal product dumping?

[Tuoqui]

How about we make them make all claims of piracy based on their cheapest worldwide price?

When will MS go open source?

[gambino21]

To me it seems really inevitable that microsoft will eventually have to open source windows. It may still be a ways off, but in the long run I just don't see how they can compete against linux and other open source operating systems. Linux gets better every year while microsoft stagnates. We've already seen some of the problems Windows has with driver support for example in Vista. If they open source windows and start moving toward a business model more like Red Hat, it would allow people to improve legacy drivers, find and fix various bugs in the os, and they would end up with a better operating system. No matter how much money they throw at the development of their OS, it just won't be able to keep up with the open source world, especially in terms of supporting legacy devices.

Re:When will MS go open source?

[VoltCurve]

Really? most driver related problems for vista were resolved in the first year of release. Had Vista driver writing progressed at the same speed it did/does for linux, we'd still be years away.

Re:When will MS go open source?

[Erikderzweite]

Oh, they will. But only for themselves. Shared source, they call it, I believe. As for Linux -- it does get better every year, but given the vast amount of inertia in people's minds and shady monopolistic tactics of Microsoft, Linux has to be ten times better to achieve ten times less. There is still much work to do.

Re:When will MS go open source?

[KasperMeerts]

Great because Microsoft makes all drivers for Vista, just like the Linux kernel developers do for Linux.
I hate these false comparisons, if every company out there would write drivers for Linux and if their company depended on that, there would be no problems for Linux.

All in all, the Linux driver model is way better than that of Windows, if only because it's open source.

Re:When will MS go open source?

[erroneus]

I'd like to disagree with you, but I can't. I'd also like to agree with you but I can't. Initially, hardware driver support under Linux was difficult and it did take a very long time to get where it is today. But now Linux hardware support is superior to Windows V****. I have grown accustomed, lately, for excellent support for hardware devices of all sorts from USB webcams to USB serial ports, video cards, sound cards and even a great many "Windows only" printers are printing nicely through CUPS. These days, when I plug something into Windows, whether it is XP or V****, getting prompted for a driver install is simply annoying when under Linux, I just plug and play... (when was the first time I heard that term? Ah yes... Windows 95... now several generations later, we still get "plug and tweak and then play.")

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[account_deleted]

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Russian translation?

[ToasterMonkey]

I'm confused, can Glyn Moody read Russian, or is the article based on the Google translation?
From this, no one is being forced to use anything, they are given free software, and individual schools must foot the bill of commercial software. I'm sure this will help spur free software adoption, but isn't the real story about the Govt not buying school software anymore? A story like this in the states would imply the schools are now rejigging their IT budgets, not necessarily adopting free software wholesale. A story about govt funding to schools being cut probably wouldn't be taken in such positive light either.
Just my two cents.

[Via Google Translate: By the end of 2009, all school computers will be installed package of free software (PSPO). This is how transfers Prime-TASS, today announced Minister of Communications and Mass Communications of the Russian Federation Igor Shchyogolev at the plenary session Information Society and the modern technologies of information in the international exhibition InfoCom-2008.]
[Via Google Translate: The Minister also noted that by 2010 it is expected that the number of computers in schools will reach a million. According to Schegoleva, after three years of school will be able to make a choice: pay royalties to use software products, buying them at their own expense, or go to the domestic free software.]

Re:Russian translation?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Free" as in speech. That's the S in PSPO. "Free" as in beer would have a B there.

Re:Russian translation?

[Glyn Moody]

I read Russian up to a certain point, but gave the Google Translate version so as not to impose any of my own misunderstandings. This is part of a larger story about Russia moving to free (as in freedom) software in its schools. I gave a link in the article to an earlier post I'd written, with more information. That, in turn, linked to some good background details elsewhere. It's not just about budget-cutting.

Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

That's about the only aspect of Russian educational policies that I'm likely to agree with. Having schools over here shell out lots of cash for most commercial software is a stupid policy. Of course, using a computer for everything in your curriculum (especially mathematics) is a huge mistake. Kids need to learn how to live without computers as well as with them.

It might be to Microsoft's advantage

[erroneus]

If Microsoft simply let Russia go free (sounds weird right?) then perhaps there will be fewer Russian hackers writing Windows malware. That would be something of a long-shot I suppose.

Re:It might be to Microsoft's advantage

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. They should force Chinese to switch to Linux as well, and Windows will be absolutely virus free.

First 4ost

[Anonymous Coward]

can coonect to fear the reaper Fact: *BSD IS A ddeper into the Tossers, went out for the record, I To underscore Free-loving climate racist? How is

Are you kidding?

[Drakin020]

Seriously? On these Pro-Torrent threads, you have everyone and their dog claiming. "Oh I just torrent Linux distro's and yada yada yada"

You would think the internets would be flooded with Linux distro's.

related to their own version of GNU/Linux?

[sillyxone]

"Also part of the consortium is ALT Linux, rapidly emerging as a serious force in the world of Linux distributions (and of which, more later), Linux Ink - developer of SciLinux - and system integrators RAMEK and NCIT.

By September of this year Armada reported that Linux software had been installed in 1092 schools in the three trial areas, while a further 200 schools from outside the trial regions had also expressed an interest in testing the Open Source operating systems being developed by ALT Linux."

http://reddevil62-techhead.blogspot.com/2008/10/russias-open-source-revolution.html

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[account_deleted]

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USA becoming a technology backwater?

[IGnatius T Foobar]

Actions like this speak volumes about the future of the United States in the global economy. As a whole we are locked into the Microsoft monopoly more tightly than any other nation. As the rest of the world embraces free and open source software at a faster pace than we do, they are essentially leapfrogging us in technological advancement. If more USA users don't wise up to this soon, we risk becoming a technological backwater. It could take years to catch up, if ever.

If you think this isn't possible, consider how much farther ahead cell phones are in Europe, or broadband to the home in Asia.

Re:USA becoming a technology backwater?

[ShadowRangerRIT]

While valid points, neither the cell phone nor broadband problems have anything to do with Microsoft, which distracts from your central point. You need to provide evidence for why MS vs. *NIX vs. some other option would necessarily lead to a lack of technical progress. I've programmed and run both, and while I somewhat prefer the simplicity of the Linux APIs, I don't see how it makes any real difference in technological advancement.

Re:USA becoming a technology backwater?

[kesuki]

consider also how japan makes the best TVs and such, america was the gold standard of radio and TVs for what was it, 60 years? i lost count. to date our hollywood and network television are still producing the most consistent quality live action shows, who else makes world class content? japan in animation? korea in kung-fu movies? the British in network TV supported by a household tax.

if you are behind and want to catch up, it's very hard, unless you have very smart people who figure out the moves you need to make to be #1. if you let your company be run by bean counters who are by nature envious of smart and creative people, you will loose the race. you need a guru on staff. with a 7 figure salary, his job is not to create products, it is to craft a vision of the future of your company, and all he does is learn about markets and the future, the best guy for this job is a CEO, since CEOs generally make or break a company, but if you can't have the 'vision' guy at the CEO you can hire one, but he almost has to have as much power to implement his 'great' plan as a ceo, at least if he has a gem of insight that nobody else has had yet.

because the arts attract creative types, who work for beans creative industries have thrived, because the TCO of creating a working creative company involves exploiting creative yet not very smart people. sadly in real business the idea man isn't nearly as cheap, they probably have a really good idea of how much money their idea is worth.

if you have idea man, but don't run with it, you wind up creating a competitor like the ipod. the ipod was like the 157th MP3 player on the market, i kid you not, most were based off the same waferboards, and most had hugely buggy interfaces programmed by amature hacks who thought a cd-r display would be plenty for a device that could hold 150 albums. but you know what, apple who was looking for good ideas that hadn't matured stumbled upon the mp3 market, and they started it to make people look at macs, they did what they were good at, making chic fashionable hardware. and it steamrolled, there are now 200 million ipods, and everyone has heard of itunes. it wasn't that other people didn't have the idea, it was that nobody got it right, and got the college kids to use it.

in electronics it's all about the college student, in computers some people focus on business because a business needs these typewriters on everyone's desk with e-mail to even function nowadays. but business isn't where the profit margin is. college kids are inexperienced, and want trendy hip stuff. they will overspend, and drive a trend, but not everyone can be a trend setter, that's why sony took so long to be overcome in portable music, that's why nintendo is still in the business of games.

if you worship bean counters like foldgers and maxwell house you sit here in the aughties watching starbucks make the same mistake you did when you went to blends of less pure 'good' quality beans that require mountains with some but not too much humidity.

fodgers and maxwell house were coffee house coffee in the 30's and they're what bargain coffee in the 5lbs jug that tastes stale by your last lb, instead of the 1lbs vacuum sealed pure good beans, $7 dollar a pound fresh gourmet coffees. you know it wasn't until the 80's that they really screwed with their formulas because of bean counters.

I don't drink coffee but bean counters went by smell, not taste. i can't smell the difference between a gourmet 1 lbs coffee and a 5 lbs coffee, but even i can taste the difference, and i dislike coffee.

btw i know coffee drinkers who are and aren't picky about coffee and some of them have way worse sense of taste than me, some of it is marketing, telling people the more expensive bean is superior. but that wouldn't work if there wasn't a slight taste difference, even the roasting process affects the flavor, arguably more than the bean selection, and the best roasting fuel is more expensive, and in modern times takes careful planning of where you do your r

Re:USA becoming a technology backwater?

[FluffyWithTeeth]

The story isn't about russia 'advancing' to the wonderful world of open source. It's simply that they're broke, and are no longer paying for schools' IT budgets.

I don't think funding your country's education makes you a 'technology backwater'.

Re:USA becoming a technology backwater?

[jrleek]

"As a whole we are locked into the Microsoft monopoly more tightly than any other nation." So, you've never been to Korea, huh? The windows market share in Korea is something like 99.9%. Almost all American webpages work fine of me on Linux, but the Korean pages still have problems. No, the US is not more locked in than "any other nation." I'm not sure how many nations, if any, are worse than Korea in this regard, but the US isn't.

And Korea has way better cell phones and broadband. There's no connection between those technologies and windows dependence.

Slashed prices?

[phorm]

What's the betting Microsoft starts slashing its prices in Russia?

After awhile, other countries would catch on to this, and MS would likely be forced to drop prices everywhere...

Re:Slashed prices?

[Jason Earl]

Actually, if Microsoft wants to remain viable it has to remain well ahead of this trend. After all, once someone has paid the one-time price to migrate away from Windows migration costs work against Microsoft and not for Microsoft.

What's more, with a large centrally mandated switch of this kind the network effects that generally favor Windows disappear.

Re:Obligatory

[mcneely.mike]

Oh man... that just made me chuckle... that would be sweet!!
goatse!

Free as in freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a native russian speaker, and "ÑÐобоÐноРÐYÐz" means a "free OS" as in freedom.

So they probably went with ALTLinux or whatever version of linux they got there that's popular.

(also, the russian text in preview is broken for whatever reason)

Re:Free as in freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"

Slashdot should use UNICODE to serve its pages.

Re:Free as in freedom

[dotancohen]

×-×'-×'-×"-×"-×-×--×---×-×(TM)-×s-×-×oe-×-×z-×Y-×-×-×-×£-×-×¥-צ-×-×-ש-×

http://gibberish.co.il/

MS Should RAISE the price

[Sparrow_CA]

I have an uncle who lives in Russia, where he bought a computer preloaded with XP. After some time he realized it wasn't a legit copy, and went back to the place he bought it from to inquire about getting an "upgraded" version. The manager had this to say to him: "There is exactly ONE legal copy of Windows in Russia, what makes you think that YOU should have it?"

Hence, MS should just raise the price of that one copy.

Re:MS Should RAISE the price

[billlava]

I think there is just about ONE legal copy of everything in Russia. Music and Movie companies may not know it, but just about every young Russian has TONS of movies and music that you can get for dirt cheap on any street in any city in Russia.

Re:MS Should RAISE the price

[Max_W]

As if one cannot download it via Limewire in a non-Russia.

In Soviet Russia

[nurb432]

Its all free, right?

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[account_deleted]

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RED STAR LINUX

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously "Red Star Linux" had a profound effect on Microsoft's China marketing policy, not.

I love fill-in-the-blank puzzles!

[xerxesVII]

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one!!!

Karma's a NOUN!

Re:I love fill-in-the-blank puzzles!

[Ihmhi]

I love Mad Libs! My turn, my turn!

Karma's a HIGHLY FLAMMABLE MATERIAL.

Re:I love fill-in-the-blank puzzles!

[theaveng]

I would never describe a woman like that, unless she's in heat. (Too much Viagra perhaps.)

Re:I love fill-in-the-blank puzzles!

[dgatwood]

Hmm. Last I checked, Karma's a microphone company. It's also a Korg keyboard technology. And finally, Karma's a beach (or at least a beach residence).

But seriously, Microsoft is getting what it deserves in this regard. That said, I have a feeling that this is, at least in part, a power play to drive down the cost of MS products in Russia. Just a gut feeling.

Re:I love fill-in-the-blank puzzles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one!!!

Karma's a NOUN!

Wrong. Karma's a chameleon.

Began years ago

[CarpetShark]

Brazil, India, China, Philippines, Extremadura...

Re:Began years ago

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. I know. A few years ago I voted for a President that had Free (as in freedom) Software in it government plan. Now a few years after it we lots of free software in government, state bank and lots of it is developed here.

More than that, we changed from a developing country to a emerging economy, we joined G20, poverty is not more as it was before. This year we have the sales of computers as big as TV sets, and lots of stuff like that. Believe me, it works.

I live in Brazil, of course.

That was my thought as well

[GuloGulo]

I got basically the same idea that you did from reading the article, but then I asked myself, if it's "free" software they're after, what's to stop MS from just giving Windows to them for free on some kind of "educational deal".

Seems like exactly the kind of thing MS would do.

Re:That was my thought as well

[WolverineOfLove]

Then let them do it. But sooner or later an accountant in Redmond is going to step up and say that they can't keep doing it.

Re:That was my thought as well

[jc42]

... if it's "free" software they're after, what's to stop MS from just giving Windows to them for free on some kind of "educational deal".

Ah, but you and others are getting an entirely wrong idea due to a simple (and probably intentional) mistranslation. The Russian government's order and the original article were not written in English, they were in Russian. As someone else point out in another message, the Russian text describes the software as "svobodniy", not "bezplatniy". Both of these words translate to English as "free", but their meanings are totally different, and neither can be naturally expressed in English with a single word. The morpheme "svobod-" means free as in liberty or freedom. The root "bezplat-" is two morphemes, "bez-" meaning without, and "plat-" meaning cost or price.

They aren't ordering schools to use software that they don't have to pay for. They're ordering the schools to use software that's unencumbered by legal restrictions and, for example, can be taken apart and studied by students that are interesting in software or by school employees looking for backdoors and other security holes. It so happens that much "svobodniy" software is available at no cost and without legal restrictions, but that wasn't the adjectivee that was used, and wasn't the intent of the government's order.

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan's famous claim that the Russian language has no word for freedom, the translators in this case missed the fact that English has no word for "svobodniy". Rather, English has a word "free" that means both "svobodniy" and "bezplatniy", two unrelated concepts that English speakers typically confuse. One can, of course, express these concepts in English, using short multi-word phrases. But in this case, the translators chose not to do this, and instead went with the one-word translation that is misinterpreted by most English readers.

This is, of course, an old trick of propagandists. If you're familiar with the technique, you're probably amused to see it in use, and to see so many people falling for it so publicly.

Re:That was my thought as well

[Anonymous Coward]

why aren't there two different words for free, as in speech, and free, as in beer?

Re:That was my thought as well

[syousef]

Both of these words translate to English as "free", but their meanings are totally different, and neither can be naturally expressed in English with a single word. The morpheme "svobod-" means free as in liberty or freedom. The root "bezplat-" is two morphemes, "bez-" meaning without, and "plat-" meaning cost or price.

Let me translate to slashdotese for you, since you didn't do such a good job.
svobod: free as in libre.
bezplat: free as in beer.

Re:That was my thought as well

[Your.Master]

There are.

For free as in beer we have, off the top of my head, costless and gratis, both of them in use in English for ~600 years. There are probably lots more.

For free as in speech we have liberated: "free from traditional social restraints". The problem with liberated is that it's spelled and pronounced the same as the past tense of liberate, and so a bunch of misguided grammar nazis think that software that was never encumbered cannot be liberated (also forgetting that until it's placed under a liberal license or the public domain, it WAS legally encumbered). This is the same sort of illiteracy that created the word "flammable" to mean the same thing as "inflammable" -- underinformed pseudo-etymologists parsing "in-flame-able" and coming up with something like "not able to flame" as the meaning.

There's also unfettered or unencumbered, and a bunch of others, all of which express shades of meaning which make them even more specific than merely "free as in speech". It's the same way that costless expresses a shade of meaning more specific than "free".

But I'm no better in some ways. I use kilobyte to mean 1024 bytes :). Kibibyte is just so...anal-retentive.

Re:That was my thought as well

[Tubal-Cain]

Gratis is an accepted English word? I thought it was a Spanish word we have been borrowing.

Re:That was my thought as well

[Anonymous Coward]

But in this case, the translators chose not to do this, and instead went with the one-word translation that is misinterpreted by most English readers.

This is, of course, an old trick of propagandists. If you're familiar with the technique, you're probably amused to see it in use, and to see so many people falling for it so publicly.

Evil googletranslate propaganda hits again!

Re:That was my thought as well

[Anonymous Coward]

Loved your language lesson. I'm fluent in both English and French, and I encounter the same type of linguistic conflicts every day, especially when I translate a document.

Re:That was my thought as well

[jc42]

For free as in beer we have, off the top of my head, costless and gratis, both of them in use in English for ~600 years.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "costless". Of course, it's an English word, and any reasonably fluent speaker will be able to parse it into its two morphemes. That's why I said "... neither can be naturally expressed in English with a single word." Yes, you can construct the single word "costless", but (at least here in the US), it's not a word you normally hear, and the resulting sentence would sound stilted to native speakers' ears. Maybe it's in use in other English-speaking countries.

And "gratis" isn't really an English word; it's a Spanish word that is sometimes used in explanations like we read here. You do hear it in the US, probably because around 20% to 25% of the population is reasonably familiar with Spanish. But it's more in the class of "Spanish words that most Americans know", rather than an English word. Sorta like like "gracias", "taco" and "cerveza". ;-)

But the real problem in this case is that the most natural translation of both the Russian words is "free", which is an English word with several essentially unrelated meanings. I sorta like to add the third example: "free as in disk space". And there are a number of other possible meanings of "free". It's clear in this discussion that most of the people either didn't read TFA or couldn't read the Russian, and they assumed the wrong meaning for "free".

(Actually, I sorta suspect that the Russian agency in question was looking at the price, even if they wrote "svobodnovo". You can't often trust any bureaucratic agency to tell you what their real motivation is. And I wish /. would switch to UTF-8, so I could have used the right spelling, copied from the Russian text.)

Re:That was my thought as well

[Raenex]

You know dictionaries are online now, gratis even.

Re:That was my thought as well

[Raenex]

And "gratis" isn't really an English word; it's a Spanish word that is sometimes used in explanations like we read here.

The dictionary I checked listed the origin as Middle English, 1444 from Latin.

What the story SHOULD have been...

[Anonymous Coward]

""After running some successful pilots..."

THIS is the big one. Not whether a contract was signed or not.

What Linux needs are success stories showing that it is viable as a large-scale enterprise operating system. No commercial organisation wants to be first into a new, unknown environment. Why can't we see the results of these pilots, and have them widely publicised?

Re:What the story SHOULD have been...

[PitaBred]

Because companies don't want their competitors to know how much money they're saving by doing things one way or another.

Really, if you were able to save $1 million a year in operational costs, and keep your prices at that of what your competitors are, would you REALLY want to tell them how to lower their operational costs? I'd rather not, and keep the extra profit inside the company. Or even just lower my prices just a little bit, so I cut them out of the market, but still profit quite nicely.

There are lots of reasons not to tell. Not that that's the best thing for everyone, but it makes a lot of sense as a business C?O

That's why our company sells our software for less than we could get otherwise to get clients that we can reference.

Re:What the story SHOULD have been...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Because companies don't want their competitors to know how much money they're saving..."

That's a really good reason in a capitalist commercial marketplace. But it's meaningless in a state institution.

These pilots took place in a state-run academic environment. There's no reason to withold them for commercial reasons. So I ask again, "Where is the detail about the pilot studies?"

Russian Politics

[billlava]

Fortunately, that's just not the way Russian politics work. Even if they managed to bribe politicians to make the laws in their favor, it would change nothing in practice. Besides, Russians wouldn't accept it. They will always get what the want for free or almost free as long as they have the will to.

Those are not all the same people

[Shivetya]

I think the founding fathers of the US would scoff at the idea that Americans are the just the same as those who fought off the British, let alone comparing Russians from before Communism to todays.

Thanks but,

[GuloGulo]

That doesn't really clarify anything. Obviously there is a difference in terminology, but is "svobodnovo" the equivalen of "open source"?

I ask because the context seems to indicate this is a cost saving measure, with little to nothing to do with open source software. Your translations seem to contradict the article.

Re:Thanks but,

[Erikderzweite]

Not really. "Svobodnyj" has two meaning in Russian - free as in speech, and loose. Open is "otkrytyj".
(damn Slashdot imperialistic engine which doesn't support Cyrillic :)

The minister clearly said about free software, not open source or cost-reducing. So the summary is a bit misleading on that point.

Re:Thanks but,

[AJWM]

Free(libre) software is also open source, but not all open source software is free.

For more detail, see any of RMS's sermons on the matter.

Re:Thanks but,

[Your.Master]

Free software is open source, but free software is not necessarily. Basically because RMS doesn't get to choose what free means, even if he restricts it to free-as-in-speech. This can be contentious in English.

Does Svobodnyj software mean open source? I don't speak Russian, but even taking as fact that English Free(libre) software means open source, does not mean anything about what the Russian government said in Russian.

Re:Thanks but,

[Dr.Syshalt]

Does Svobodnyj software mean open source?

99.99% - yes. The "open source software" term, translated into Russian, is way too long. Like 5 very long Russian words. So nobody is using it here. Our programmers, when talking about open source, just usually say that in English: "open source" (geekspeak here is full of English words). But since this was an official speech, the speaker has used another, official term - "svobodnyj": free-to-change, free-as-in-speech.

So the article most probably means exactly that - the schools are going to get some Linux distro, produced in Russia (there are some of them here), approved by government and loaded with opensource software.

Re:Thanks but,

[GuloGulo]

"Free(libre) software is also open source"

No. I am using free software right now that isn't open source.

"For more detail, see any of RMS's sermons on the matter."

Hell no.

Re:Thanks but,

[GuloGulo]

"99.99% - yes."

Then why have so many people posted and said otherwise?

Oh, it's because you're wrong.

I beg to differ

[GuloGulo]

"But sooner or later an accountant in Redmond is going to step up and say that they can't keep doing it."

This is not in line wioth reality, as MS has been essentially "giving windows away" (in the form of unpoliced piracy) for years, and the consensus is that it has actually helped them rather than hurting them.

What makes you think this will be any different?

Russia / Free ?

[Gothmolly]

Doesn't Russia just pirate all the software anyways ?

Cultural bias

[CarpetShark]

Aside from stereotyping russians, you guys are showing a lot of cultural bias, that you probably don't realise. Stop calling people lazy, and go read The Importance of Living. Or just spend time living in a hunter-gatherer tribe for a while. You might find yourselves returning to your lives and calling the people around you workaholics... or just plain insane.

"To truly understand another culture, you must first understand your own."

Re:Cultural bias

[Zontar_Thing_From_Ve]

Aside from stereotyping russians, you guys are showing a lot of cultural bias, that you probably don't realise. Stop calling people lazy, and go read The Importance of Living.

I have spent a significant amount of time in Ukraine (rough comparison - Ukraine is to Russia as Canada is to the USA) and I have also known Russians in various places. I would not describe them as lazy. However, they do have a sense of entitlement that you cannot believe unless you have been there. Couple this with a seriously decreased sense of morality (thank you USSR!) and you do have a culture that sees nothing wrong at all with stealing, lying, killing, etc. to make money. I'm not saying all Russians are like this, but more are than we should really be comfortable with. Generally they are well educated and often well motivated, but they are not motivated in a way that's really beneficial to them or us in the long term. Ultimately they probably won't be able to solve the problems that they'll face in the near future (declining population, increasing rates of AIDS, poor health care, rampant alcoholism, etc.) because they are so self-centered. But they aren't lazy.

Re:Cultural bias

[cecom]

Mod parent up! He is showing considerable insight. I should add that the sense of entitlement and loose ethics are also typical of other Eastern European nations - my own in particular - which I will not mention in order to protect the guilty. Sometimes I am really ashamed of how I myself used to think about a decade ago, before I moved to the "west".

The only redeeming note here is that people do change - I have observed this in many expatriates.

Re:Cultural bias

[Anonymous Coward]

I have spent a significant amount of time in Ukraine (rough comparison - Ukraine is to Russia as Canada is to the USA)

Not quite, as both the ukranians and the russians will no doubt be quick to point out. Canada is essentially a large territory with almost no population that enjoyed the same geographic isolation as the United States and just as short (or shorter) history. Both Russia and the Ukraine have lasted for a couple of thousand years and have weathered a number of crises over the years, including wars between the two of them.

However, they do have a sense of entitlement that you cannot believe unless you have been there. Couple this with a seriously decreased sense of morality (thank you USSR!) and you do have a culture that sees nothing wrong at all with stealing, lying, killing, etc. to make money.

This is a rather sweeping generalization. By this rationale, the sense of morality depends purely on the societal mechanisms. Well, 99 percent of the world does not live according to Western standards, I would hope that does not make them all killers, thieves, etc.

I'm not saying all Russians are like this, but more are than we should really be comfortable with. Generally they are well educated and often well motivated, but they are not motivated in a way that's really beneficial to them or us in the long term. Ultimately they probably won't be able to solve the problems that they'll face in the near future (declining population, increasing rates of AIDS, poor health care, rampant alcoholism, etc.) because they are so self-centered. But they aren't lazy.

Ah, this `more than ...' bit is based on thorough and systematic observations, no doubt. In addition, are we to assume that the russians somehow stand out from the crowd in this respect (after all you started out by saying you observed all this living in the Ukraine, or do ukranians suffer from these moral ills, as well?). Sure, we all have our prejudices but it is good to sometime think before you make such general insulting statements impugning the whole culture
in a couple of paragraphs.

Re:Cultural bias

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah.. russians are all thieves and sodomists.. you're fucking idiot
look at what the western world is with all that gay marriage, porno and Hollywood
yeah.. russian morale is bad, right? go fuck yourself

Re:Cultural bias

[Anonymous Coward]

Guys, Why has this story about the FOSS software being adopted on the federal level in another country turned into a discussion about how bad and smart Russian people are? What's next? When Chinese people adopt FOSS on the federal level, we will bash them, too? India? Brazil? Extremadura of Spain? I think that we all should celebrate this event, especially in the Linux and Slashdot community and not get carried away with badmouthing one nation or another. Don't forget that this move by the Russian government (despite how bad you think it governs or how corrupt and criminal Russia may be) creates a great ripple in the world of IT and software alternatives. It becomes yet another great testament of FOSS power and its readiness to help the world and emerging economies. Having a choice of operating system or office suite or any other product for that matter is a health state of affairs. Respect

Excellent move from many points of view!

[$criptah]

This is an excellent move from any points of view. In fact, I predict that countries like Russia will soon lead Open Source movements because for developing economies it makes sense on many levels. Here is my take on one of the points.

If I lived in Russia, I would be afraid of running anything but a Linux distro or software that I legally purchased in the U.S. or other developed countries. This is because software piracy is so wide spread that even competent people may not be able to tell you what is real and what is not. Go to any market and you can get a "genuine" copy of Windows bundled with many other goodies for pennies on the dollar. All you have to do is to run a file "crack.exe" to make things work. I shit you not, this is exactly what some of the README files supplied with the software will tell you to do. Don't ask me how I know that. The question is: How can you sleep comfortable knowing that your business secrets and your reputation may be at risk for running software of unknown origin? This is not about Windows v. Mac OS v. Linux. This is about knowing where your software comes from. If they setup a department in charge of creating a secure Linux distribution suitable for public schools, they eliminate any intentional or unintentional damage that could be caused by pirated software.

The alternative is to team up with software vendors that can distribute proven valid copies of the software at the market prices that is acceptable to the population. We've heard that Russia's economy is on the rise but they're nowhere near reaching the point of incomes seen in the U.S. and Western Europe. So somebody has to step it... Case closed.

Re:Wise They Aint

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfsht. America did all of that stuff in like, a five-year span. You Ruskies are lazy AND stupid. Gosh.

Yes, Linux is more expensive then Top100 pro

[Xelgen]

Yep, it should be hard to believe for lot of ppl here, but for a lot of places (excluding only multimillion cities) in ex Soviet countries, this is the case. There is no broadband unlimited internet tariffs. 1 Mb of download, can cost up to 0.10$. Downloading will take couple of days .iso of a CD, and more then a week for DVD image. And a CD/DVD with Vista/Full Adobe Creative Suite/Full MS Office pro/3D Max/whatever will cost about 4-5$ at any CD/DVD shop, which can be found on every single step. Now tell me, which options whould you prefer? Downloading an iso of CD for 50-60$ during a week, + another 20-30$ for additional packages, drivers, codecs, whatever.. Or buying let's say 2 DVD's for 10$ in 10 minutes, one with "All windows + office" (Several versions of windows + several versions of office, + antiviruses, system utilites, daily soft), and second "All computer graphics" with (All Adobe applciations for graphics, video, web-design, +3d max, maya, corel draw, image viewers, video players, etc..). So which one? :) That is the main reason why it's so hard to push open source in here. P.S. It's hard to find a fresh Linux distro in CD shops, and even if you can find not 2 years old, the price is the same.

Re:Yes, Linux is more expensive then Top100 pro

[Matt Perry]

One can copy CDs these days. You don't have to rely on downloads.

Re:Yes, Linux is more expensive then Top100 pro

[TheModelEskimo]

Speaking personally, I'd go with Linux. Heck, I am able to pay full price for those pro apps right now, and I own many of them. And I still use Linux on my work machine, for creative work, day in and day out. I wouldn't discount the fact that a) Linux is very capable, b) it just feels gross to buy/download/use pirated software, no matter *what* state your personal finances are in, and c) people who complain that they need proprietary app X, Y, or Z to work in the creative field are usually not worth their hire (I say that because I have taught many such people).

Let's face it, people want to do the right thing. If it's hard to push Open Source there, I'd say stop pushing it, and start using it. People learn by example, eventually.

Re:Yes, Linux is more expensive then Top100 pro

[Xelgen]

That's what lot of FOSS enthusiasts do (me too), one downloads image and the makes copies for friends, those who asked. I even seen some list/db of available downloaded CD's (like Ivan has FC & Ubuntu, Vladimir has Debian and Gentoo, email them, and ask for a copy, then meet somewhere) on several Russian/Ukrainian LUGs. But price is still the same (you can also copy disk with proprietary soft, and that's what is done :) ). And for regular ppl/managers/decision makers price is the main argument to switch or not to switch to FOSS. Plus take in account that absolute majority of ppl knows Windows systems, but very few know other. It's right for both general users, and technical staff. As one who tries to promote FOSS in exUSSR country (Armenia) I can write number of articles on this, but guess this is not the best place for going in details. :)

Re:Yes, Linux is more expensive then Top100 pro

[Xelgen]

Agree, that's what personally I do, at home, and at all places where I have right to make such a decision.

BUT, I'm a techie with good enough English, to read man's, tutorials, discussion, etc..
And if an average users, without good enough English (German/French/Spanish any language you can find enough resources and docs) would try to put Linux, he/she will have enough of hard time even on smth as user-friendly as Ubuntu, as soon as a small problem rises on the way. In case of windows/popular proprietary soft, there are enough books or just friends/ppl to ask for help.

for point B, there's a big problem: situation with IP and relation to it in USSR was _very_ different from one in US/Europe. And for lot of ppl, especially grown up in soviet era, it's not smth real bad to copy a program/song/movie/whatever. For another part it's still hard to understand what's bad in copying something for personal/noncomercial use. You can often hear things like "If I will not give my 3 months salary to world's richest company, will they loose smth? I don't stole anything from anyone, right? I just make a copy, and put it back.". Things started to change of course, but situation/mentality is still very different. From the other side, here in Armenia, just 1.5 years ago If I'd like to get non-pirated soft/audio album/movie the only way was buying through Internet, which has number of it's own difficulties. It's just 1.5 years we have MS Armenia. The only way you could get a genuine preinstalled windows on your PC, was to buy a brand-name pc/laptop. I can find only local audio or movies non-pirated, I don't think you can find a licensed CD of let's say even Britney Spears, or anything popular/widespread like that, not speaking of situation when one wants something rare/not so popular. So piracy is forbidden by law, but in reality it's the only accessible way for 95% of population to get smth. And we are not talking about very different average salaries in post soviet countries and western countries.

for point C, I again agree with you, for most cases. But let's say do we have smth comparable to Adobe Premier? There are number of free non-linear video editing apps, but they still have a long way, to let's say becoming what GIMP is compared to Photoshop. Well that's a technical question.

Well by pushing I meant more "promoting". For lot of ppl to see linux on a PC, you have to install it at public places, internet cafes, universities and schools not just use at home. Last 2 already got a good deal from MS, so it will be even harder to make them try Linux.

comunism is still strong in russia

[Anonymous Coward]

comunism is still strong in russia

Whew! good thing the world economy is tanking...

[Dutchmaan]

Once the world economy tanks and Russia is forced to abandon free software in favor of 'for profit' OS's, then we can breathe a sigh of relief that those who came up with the OS are getting their rightful compensation for IP rights!

OMG russia gets it and invests in its people!!

[CHRONOSS2008]

OMG russia gets it and invests in its people!!

in about ten years due to this you are going to start seeing a lot more professional coders enmasse coming out of russia. This is what Canada should do with our OIL money, and commodities. IF Schools want MS software then pay out of your own packets and no money anymore allocated for such other htem paying sysadmins and deployments.

As i said it would and could save provincial and federal govts of canada a whopping 1.8 billion a year. ( we only have a revenue of 200Billion )

Then you could use half that cash to pay the greedy hollywood ones for all the movies and tv and games. The other half could be used for better health care, a lil lower taxes ( or keep us from the USA made recession ) and continue to pay down our debt which gives us a lil extra every year.

IS THIS SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST? no! Its proper business planning and use of the capital available to what you can get for your return on investment. ( you could even lessen our post secondary tuitions to point that CANADIAN CITIZENS ONLY enjoy almost free education and that alone will pay billions in the future)

THEN take the 4 billion from that wireles auction and MAKE the big 3-4 ISPS upgrade adhere to net neutrality and give ME japanese speeds to the home.

Example while peterborough was digging up all the streets around me to fix sewers , why didnt some one or an ISP then drop fibre into the street.
Half the work and cost by the city other by the ISP, a sharing of that means a ton less cost in the end and all of peterborough could have enjoyed something.

We need ot keep voting for the copyright MP's and htose that share there mindset.

SAY no to strategic voting form now and and vote accordingly. IF a local liberal was vocal vote him/her in again. If that is an NDP MP( who increased there seats almost 40% this time around)
then vote him/her in.

Remember Capitalism can only work good in a balance of social order. Russia as i see it is moving in not only the right direction but one that will see it move into a real super power status with all there people having access to free knowledge.

They can hire now better teachers, better equipment, and give the students more teachers per student ratios.

In Communist Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

Source Opens YOU!

Quite legitimate

[AliasMarlowe]

Microsoft is staffed by people that do, among other things, throw chairs at people, describe open source as "cancer", and want to "$#%^&*@ kill Google".

Please, attack Microsoft on legitimate issues (e.g. prior extreme anticompetitive behavior, and incomplete reform), not pointless ad hominem attacks.

"Qualis rex, talis grex."

The symptoms of systematic dysfunction were well known to the Romans. Leadership is a very legitimate issue.

And when linux proponents use it

[Anonymous Coward]

we're "crazy zealots" and the reason why linux is going nowhere.

Makes sense...

Free Windows coming to a Russian school near you

[billcopc]

What Microsoft will almost certainly do, is give away free Windows and Office licenses to these schools. They'd rather lose the money, than lose the users, because free software is "contagious". Get a kid used to Linux, he's likely to continue using it beyond the classroom, maybe even writing interop tools to help migrate his friends and relatives away from expensive commercial apps.

You don't need to look very far... Microsoft wouldn't be a tenth of the size today, were it not for rampant proliferation of its OS during the 80's and 90's. People grew up on Windows, whether or not they paid for it is irrelevant, it's what they know and inertia is what keeps them there.

Actually no, I knew that already

[GuloGulo]

Thank for the translation, but I already had it. As you and others, the translation is suspect.

That being said, neither russian word for "free" means open source as it is normally used.

So thanks for the translation and assuming I needed it when I didn't , but someone beat you to it and it still doesn't answer my question.

It won't work

[htz]

So who's gonna bribe Russian officials if the software is free?

Legal Windows is available too

[21mhz]

"There is exactly ONE legal copy of Windows in Russia"

That's bollocks. I still use a copy of Windows XP Home that I bought legally in Russia for about $70. It's a no-frills "OEM edition" which I (and the retailer) considered myself eligible for, since I built my PC from parts.

As if...

[Anonymous Coward]

As if someone in the ex-soviet block actually paying for Microsoft licenses...

Yes

[melted]

That is so. It better be equal to Masters, since most schools over there require that you study for at least 5 years before they issue you a diploma. 6 years is not uncommon either. Then there's the issue of high schools. If you compare Russian high school with US one, grade by grade, US kids are 1.5 to 2 years behind. This means little to no remedial education is necessary once they start their higher education. And all good schools require applicants to pass entrance exams. Simply completing a test is not enough.

Darn it

[melted]

Once they start => once Russian kids start. I fail at pronoun agreement.

Russians think the same of the Americans

[melted]

Stupid, lazy, gullible, with a huge sense of entitlement - that's how 95% of Russians perceive Americans. Sad but true.

Ubuntu on free terminals at Sydney Airport

[Zero return]

I passed through Sydney Airport yesterday and all of the free internet terminals were using Ubuntu. Unfortunately, on the screens I saw, there were no desktop icons for Opera, so if someone closed the browser window, people though the computer had crashed. You get the picture. In short, while some tech people are trying to make open-source available to the public, many short-sighted mistakes are still being made.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

1 million PC's?

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it hard to reconcile the 'million' computers in the school system' and the large population of Russia.

If adopting open source allows / helps them increase the exposure to and skill development from computer usage, than GO.

It is not about money

[Max_W]

I just read on this page http://linux.armd.ru/ that the president of Russian Federation ordered to create a robust reliable open source OS by 2010.

It is the top priority task for the security of Russian Federation. The school project is just a part of it.

And...

[Anonymous Coward]

the other part in "the master plan" is to also not being in the hand of NSA and other "contributors" to MS software. In times when Russia is on a collision with WE (wester Europe) and US they need to be sure they are not being compromised. They are also upgrading and finally launching their own GPS satellites, they use some WE and US up to now. And more of that kind of project to free themselves from WE and US.
EU is pushing hard for laws and technology to wiretap communications, old Soviet countries are franchising NATO etc etc.

As a resident of Russia...

[Loki_666]

.... with two kids of my own growing up hear i am most pleased to hear about this move.

Cant see how MS will handle this one. After all their usual strategy is to bribe... ahem, encourage converts back into the fold by offering cheap licences... but russian schools are so poor (well the public ones anyway, private ones are loaded) that MS would practically have to offer it for free otherwise they will go with Linux (or use pirated versions).

PC pharmacists?

[esarjeant]

Interestingly enough, Microsoft didn't instigate this action and in fact they wanted to work with Russian authorities to resolve this in an amicable fashion:

http://www.microsoft.com/rus/news/issues/2007/02/news_20070207.mspx

This is a real problem - how do you enforce copyright and intellectual property rights when the victim may have no idea they are in violation?

I know quite a few people who have been bitten by Windows Genuine Advantage. They purchased computers from a vendor who in fact sold them illegal copies at full market price. So they have effectively paid for an XP license but the copy they were sold is illegal.

Maybe we need to treat PC vendors like pharmacists? You must be licensed in the state where you want to sell a computer. Every computer sold must have your name or company name on it, and if you are caught selling a computer without a license it is a $1M fine.