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100x Denser Chips Possible With Plasmonic Nanolithography

Roland Piquepaille writes "According to the semiconductor industry, maskless nanolithography is a flexible nanofabrication technique which suffers from low throughput. But now, engineers at the University of California at Berkeley have developed a new approach that involves 'flying' an array of plasmonic lenses just 20 nanometers above a rotating surface, it is possible to increase throughput by several orders of magnitude. The 'flying head' they've created looks like the stylus on the arm of an old-fashioned LP turntable. With this technique, the researchers were able to create line patterns only 80 nanometers wide at speeds up to 12 meters per second. The lead researcher said that by using 'this plasmonic nanolithography, we will be able to make current microprocessors more than 10 times smaller, but far more powerful' and that 'it could lead to ultra-high density disks that can hold 10 to 100 times more data than today's disks.'"

117 comments

  1. dense? by chibiace · · Score: 4, Funny

    what ever happened to smart chips?

    --
    he who controls the spice controls the universe
    1. Re:dense? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were too smart and went into business for themselves, rather than continue to work for us.

  2. that's great and all. by DragonTHC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The problem is this: when will it be cheap enough to be used as a process for the chips we use now?

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
    1. Re:that's great and all. by ChienAndalu · · Score: 1

      Well, think about it this way: They have to build one or a few really expensive machines, and they obviously don't need much resources. So the mass production effect will push the price down after a while.

    2. Re:that's great and all. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rtfa

    3. Re:that's great and all. by Corwn+of+Amber · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Never. "Plasmonic Nanolithography"? Yeah, yeah, and I've got a machine that extracts OIL from SNAKES while producing more energy than it consumes.

      When will they fire Roland? He never even posted anything remotely plausible.

      --
      Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
  3. 5-10 years by wjh31 · · Score: 4, Funny

    every great new technology is 5-10 years away i belive

    1. Re:5-10 years by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Except for nuclear fusion, that always 30 years away.

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    2. Re:5-10 years by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Arg, ... need to preview. nuclear fusion power-generation, that is.

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    3. Re:5-10 years by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Funny

      very good news for you, electricity by fusion is no longer something promised 30 years away, now it's fifty.

    4. Re:5-10 years by cong06 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And artificial intelligence. That's always 20 years away.

    5. Re:5-10 years by Ortega-Starfire · · Score: 2, Funny

      They better hurry up, for about a century we've been told we'll run out of oil in 20 years.

      --
      ---- Liquid was a patriot ----
    6. Re:5-10 years by Fluffeh · · Score: 2, Funny

      And I thought it was already here. While reading TFA I couldn't help but think. Wow, that's dense. That's really dense. Surely nothing could be that dense short of Microsoft programmers?

      Yeah, look, sorry it's early and that's the best I got at the moment. Live it up!

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      Moved to http://soylentnews.org/. You are invited to join us too!
    7. Re:5-10 years by Pantero+Blanco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And artificial intelligence. That's always 20 years away.

      No, it starts off at 20 years away and gets closer, and once it's less than 5 or 10 years away, someone redefines it and it's back to 20.

    8. Re:5-10 years by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      So according to both of your estimates, great nuclear fusion is 35-40 years away. Of course, 30 years from now, we'll have mediocre nuclear fusion.

    9. Re:5-10 years by Tawnos · · Score: 1

      I don't get it. Maybe I'm not supposed to, though, since I'm a Microsoft programmer and I see you mentioned those.

    10. Re:5-10 years by elashish14 · · Score: 1

      30 years? Pfft, that's nothing compared to the year of the Linux desktop.

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    11. Re:5-10 years by master_p · · Score: 1

      And DNF...

    12. Re:5-10 years by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the AI researchers finally got humility and admitted that level 1 and 2 problems are hard, and that they have no idea how close we are to cracking them.

      Viable fusion isn't going to come from tokamak style reactors. Dead end path. Some other path may work, polywell, focus fusion, inertial confinement, etc.

    13. Re:5-10 years by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Which is just in time for Duke Nukem: Forever.

    14. Re:5-10 years by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Huh? AI has been over-promising and underdelivering since from day one, when its founders (McCarthy, Minsky) defined its aim and scope.

      Now you are trying to rewrite this into "it is not that we are failing, it is that the goalposts keep moving". Are you a spin doctor for the republican party by any chance?

  4. Fragility by Renraku · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A question for the physics people out there.

    At what point does Brownian motion become a serious consideration? What about tunneling electrons and other quantum-ish effects?

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    1. Re:Fragility by wjh31 · · Score: 5, Informative

      brownian motion isnt really relevant at this level, but i imagine that if the channel or 'wires' or whatever were close enough then tunneling could be an issue, but probability of tunneling falls off exponentially with the distance, and the severity depends on the energy, but if the wires are put close enough then it could be an issue, however only if there was just few atoms between channels

    2. Re:Fragility by mehtars · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually with processors using a 90 and 45 nanometer transistor size, there is a very high likely hood that a number of transistors will fail over the lifetime of the chip due to diffusion alone. Though modern processors have taken care of this by routing data through parts of the chip that are still active. Though this has an interesting affect of slowing the processor down as it gets older.

    3. Re:Fragility by Cyberax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At about 5nm. Other effects should limit our current tech to about 10nm.

      If "10 times smaller" is about chip area, then it might be possible - square root of 10 is about 3 and our current best lithography processes are about 30nm.

    4. Re:Fragility by drerwk · · Score: 3, Informative

      I tend to think of Brownian motion happening in a gas or liquid - which Wikipedia confirms http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion
      Thermal diffusion of atoms in a device do cause problems and limit the temperature at which semiconductors can work. In fact, diffusion of dopants is one way a chip can 'wear out' with long term use. No doubt the smaller the scale the more problem diffusion will be, but it tends to be very temperature sensitive, so keeping the device at some reasonable temperature would prevent, or at least slow the problem.

    5. Re:Fragility by ThisNukes4u · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Do you have any source/references on techniques used to compensate for this effect?

      --
      thisnukes4u.net
    6. Re:Fragility by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 5, Informative

      Tunneling electrons and other quantum effects are already in effect in current devices. We just design around those effects instead of taking advantage of them currently. When we really get the ability to make reliable 5nm size scale parts, we'll just switch to quantum dot based transistors (single electron transistors).

      Brownian motion isn't relevent here.

      A big issue is that sharp features are thermodynamically unstable (lots of dangling surface bonds), so edges tend to "soften" over time due to surface diffusion. Also, at ohmic contacts you can get pits forming which can eventually degrade features.

      Another issue is that at the size scales we're talking about, current insulators stop working. They're looking at switching to a variety of new materials for this purpose (for example, IrO2), but these are tricky. This is what they mean when they say "high dielectric constant" materials. Every MOS transistors has a this oxide layer (between the Metal and the Semiconductor), and that layer's thickness defines many of the physical properties of the device.

      Finally, you have to worry about inductors to a lesser extent. Current inductors aren't quite good enough, but we're working on that too =) Nanoscale metallic alloys are definitely the way to go.

      In any event, this article is sort of sensationalist (surprise!). I was able to make 20nm features using physical embossing (stamping metal liquid precursors with a plastic stamp and then curing them) back in 2002. Making features of small size scale is easy, it's keeping error rate, making interconnects, etc that's hard and annoying. Plasmonics is very neat though, I can imagine it working with time.

      Besides, hard disks already have magnetic domains of ~ only a few nanometers anyway.

    7. Re:Fragility by ZarathustraDK · · Score: 4, Funny

      A question for the physics people out there. At what point does Brownian motion become a serious consideration? What about tunneling electrons and other quantum-ish effects?

      Depends on the fiber-content of the brownie...

      --
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    8. Re:Fragility by mehtars · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1994121,00.asp
      Here is an article on it. Although its from 2006, there has been more work done on it. There are more articles on it in the literature.
      If you search for 'self healing' microprocessors you can find a number of articles on it.

    9. Re:Fragility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why was parent marked troll? Off topic, maybe, but it does sound interesting?

    10. Re:Fragility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ./ needs a moderating system for moderatings. Call it,
                The Meta-Moderating System (c),
              the only system which successfully
                compensates stupid and bizarre
                      moderatings, since 2008.

    11. Re:Fragility by Zerth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So bit rot is real now? Argh.

      Well, at least I can put it back on the excuse calendar.

    12. Re:Fragility by blues_shuffle · · Score: 1

      Finally, you have to worry about inductors to a lesser extent. Current inductors aren't quite good enough, but we're working on that too =) Nanoscale metallic alloys are definitely the way to go.

      Now my experience with electronics is quite brief at best, but I was under the impression that inductors were specifically avoided in electronic circuitry for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that they tend to be bulky. This is not a big problem because the effects of an inductor can be simulated with an RC circuit.
      Is this a typo, or is there some reason why they use inductors on nano-scale circuits (where the size issue would be even more pronounced)?

    13. Re:Fragility by Jafafa+Hots · · Score: 2, Funny

      Plasmonics is very neat though...

      It's also a great name for a band.

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      This space available.
    14. Re:Fragility by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

      Hell, it's a great phrase to drop into any conversation. I'm currently on the lookout for a reason to say "Plasmonic Nanolithography". It's right up there with Flux Capacitor.

      --
      Squirrel!
    15. Re:Fragility by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      At what point does Brownian motion become a serious consideration?

      I don't know about you, but after a few footlong chilidogs I take any Brownian motion very seriously.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    16. Re:Fragility by Gibbs-Duhem · · Score: 1

      They avoid them as much as possible, as you say. I meant by "lesser extent" that they aren't as big of a deal because we avoid them.

      In rare situations they are necessary, and the limiting factor is one of standard magnetic materials ceasing to function as expected at very high frequencies. You wouldn't necessarily have them patterned into a circuit, but say for instance you want to use an inductor to transformer-couple AC signals into an analog to digital converter.

      I have to reach a bit to find a real reason for them, but I just thought I'd throw it out there that current magnetic materials aren't suitable for high frequency applications, but that some neat new nanoscale alloys are able to reach very high frequencies.

  5. Plasmonic nanolithography? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is Roland at his finest...

    1. Re:Plasmonic nanolithography? by Valdrax · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What exactly is the problem with this term? Just too "fancy" and "technical" for you salt of the earth Anonymous Cowards? It makes perfect sense if you know the root words for it, and it succinctly describes the technology:

      - Plasmonic: Of or using plasmons.
      - Nano-: At the nanometer scale of operation
      - Lithography: Lithography.

      Maybe you can argue that the "nano" is superfluous, but it captures one of the two things that are significant about the new technique -- it uses plasmons instead of traditional light, and it can theoretically operate at a scale as small as 5-10 nm. ("Nano-" seems to be more significant, when you're at the point where you're talking single-digit nanometer resolution.)

      Just because it's long and wordy doesn't mean that it's Star Trek nonsense. The phrase has a useful meaning.

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    2. Re:Plasmonic nanolithography? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It makes perfect sense if you know the root words for it

      Yes, and so does supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

    3. Re:Plasmonic nanolithography? by GanjaManja · · Score: 1

      nanolithography? wtf, i just do *regular* lithography to get 300nm features... no wonder it's such a pain, we need a NANOlithography machine!

      it does sounds awesome though, I'd give them money were I an MBA'd suit with no engineering experience!

    4. Re:Plasmonic nanolithography? by trongey · · Score: 1

      I don't even care what it does. Plasmonic nanolithography is just a freaking awesome name for something.

      --
      You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
    5. Re:Plasmonic nanolithography? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great response on the above and comments about the research by the National Science Foundation, unfortunately I have to remain one of the salt of the earth Anonymous cowards as I work directly in this field doing one of the highest level of IP development. Cheers!

  6. oh no it's roland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    oh no it's roland

  7. That's good... by kitsunewarlock · · Score: 4, Funny

    These thin chips keep breaking off in my salsa.

    --
    Ginga no Rekshiya Mata Each page.
    1. Re:That's good... by llamaxing · · Score: 1

      In 5 to 10 years [ref. user wjh31], scientists will eventually combines the advantages of today's chips with Chex, which benefit from breaking less easily and becoming soggy less often.

  8. Impact on Big chip manufacturers by tylerni7 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Do current chip manufacturers like Intel and AMD work on new lithography techniques, or do they focus more on architectural changes?
    It seems that they shrink their process at a fairly slow rate, and both companies seem to do it at about the same speed.

    Also, if they both have been just advancing the standard techniques using high frequency light to etch all the chips, how easily could they change their manufacturing process over to something radically different?

    Seeing chips with 100 times more density would offer incredible benefits for speed and power savings, seeing the recent changes that the 65nm to 45nm process has brought. Hopefully we'll actually be able to see this process being used inside the next 10 years though.

    1. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 5, Informative

      You have to make a difference between Fabs which produce ICs and companies that produce Fab equimpent. Off course they're intertwined but AMD and the likes is an architecture Co, where Companies like ASML drive Fab technology. The "slow rate" is set by industry agreements - milestones - to keep the cost of Fab tech R&D minimal. The shrink step is a factor 2 for surface, resulting in a factor sqrt(2) for feature size. Litho tech companies use this step because the market is not viable for developing Fab tech which takes a different approach: litho is just a fraction in the hundreds of steps it takes to produce an IC. If you were to implement a new Fab litho technique which differs from the roadmap you won't have customers because the technology isn't in sync with the other processes. In other words: this new technology is only viable if the others jump on the bandwagon, so far it's "only" proof of concept. The field of Fab tech R&D is filled with new concepts, but that's just a small part of the story.

      --
      "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
    2. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by sssssss27 · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding that they work on both. It's really expensive to build the fabs to produce the chip at the smaller process so obviously they are going to profit off the ones they have as long as possible. Last I had heard AMD is one generation behind Intel right now. You can't just shrink a chip down either with the new techniques. Every time you have a process shrink you run into new problems.

      Perhaps this will make SSDs competitive now. You can get 4 GB microSD cards these days. If you could get just a 10 fold increase that gives you 40 GB. That would be enough for my entire music collection on my phone. 100 fold increase would allow me to have most of my TV shows and movies as well.

    3. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Kjella · · Score: 1

      It seems that they shrink their process at a fairly slow rate, and both companies seem to do it at about the same speed.

      I have no idea what definition of slow you're using at least. Making a new process work is absurdly complicated and expensive and they usually do it once every four years. By any standard I can think of the computer industry is still moving at breakneck speeds, setting new performance records, creating new device classes and entering new price brackets all the time. For older definitions of supercomputer, you're probably carrying one in your pocket. At this rate, it'll be a little chip under my watch in ten years.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by mikael · · Score: 1

      For older definitions of supercomputer, you're probably carrying one in your pocket. At this rate, it'll be a little chip under my watch in ten years.

      You can already get mobile phone watches (CECT M800 and others), which have 2 Gigabytes of memory, have Bluetooth capability and which can both record and play mp3/mp4 files, along with using WAP internet access. There's even a watch with Wi-FI detection built in.

      --
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    5. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by tylerni7 · · Score: 1

      I don't mean to say slow exactly, but the progression of lithography technology doesn't seem to be moving as fast as other areas are. This could just be because I don't really understand the whole process of photolithograpy-- I understand that it is complicated, but the sizes are decreasing by a constant factor of about 1.4 every 2-3ish years, while we can easily see hard drive density increasing exponentially.
      That is why (well maybe a possible reason why) companies have just been making multi-core machines. The lithography technology isn't increasing by huge leaps like it used to, so to counter that, you can just stick more dies in a package.

      This technology, on the other hand, says it can create chips 100 times more dense, that just seems like a major leap from the current track record.

      Of course it's a complicated process, and both companies are making incredible progress in what a chip can achieve, but the computing power per core hasn't changed that much in the past couple years.

    6. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by maxume · · Score: 1

      Physically, microSD is up to (at least) 8 GB these days:

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2000070068%201053131144&name=Micro%20SDHC

      Of course, an SDHC card won't work in an SD reader, so there is room to argue about what is what.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Informative

      Do current chip manufacturers like Intel and AMD work on new lithography techniques, or do they focus more on architectural changes?

      Yes. This research was funded by the National Science Foundation, a federal agency, but IBM, Intel, and AMD are all active in process technology research. I can't dig up much in the way of what they're currently researching, but here are a few things I was aware of in the past few years (and some things I dug while looking for them):

      • Intel was researching extreme-ultraviolet (EUV) lithography around 2002-2004.
      • Intel is also funding research into computational lithography to avoid having to do immersion lithography, like IBM and others are doing for the next generation.
      • AMD & IBM were partnering on a test fab for EUV lithography in 2006 and had successfully demonstrated the ability to create transistors but were still working on metal interconnects at that time. I'd bet money they've gotten past that point by now.
      • IBM did a lot of pioneering work on strained silicon that they announced back in 2001.
      • Silicon-on-insulator (SOI) was another fab technology they pioneered in 1998, but it hasn't spread much in the industry beyond them, AMD, and Motorola / Freescale -- in other words, IBM and its partners.
      • And then again, back to IBM, they were the first company to come up with a viable process for laying down copper interconnects, using what's called a dual-damascene process, in the late 90's.
      • Hitachi has been actively developing electron-beam lithography for over a decade, but the technology has yet to really live up to its promise as a commercially viable competitor for photolithography AFAIK.

      Some of the above research was about commercializing "pure" research done in independent labs like this experiment, but a lot of it was directly funded by the big fabrication companies and their clients and partners. Since I'm not in the fabrication industry myself, I can't really comment any further on who has done what (and how much each of the above deserves credit). This is just news I remember from years past.

      --
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    8. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Thing+1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A .sig comment:

      "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

      I've always had trouble with this quote. "Last refuge" means, basically, "after trying all else, we do this."

      Therefore, I would state that violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    9. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 1

      Corrected

      --
      "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
    10. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by GanjaManja · · Score: 1

      Intel is also on the forefront of photonic interconnects for Processors. HP just jumped on board a year or two ago. Often they fund university research and then try to implement it viably in CMOS or current fab processes.

      Hybrid Si Laser by UCSB

    11. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by sketerpot · · Score: 1

      That's obscene. And in a few years it'll be routine.

    12. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Tweenk · · Score: 1

      No, no. Obviously you didn't read the Foundation novels.

      The quote means that the competent will always find solutions before resorting to violence, because for every possible situation there is an option better than violence. The incompetent can't find any of those options and use force, which is never the optimal solution.

      --
      Those who would give up liberty to obtain working drivers, deserve neither liberty nor working drivers.
    13. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe you're misunderstanding the quote. "Last refuge" means that "if everything else doesn't work we do this", violence in this case. Asimov meant that there were other final options such as the economic and religious shutdown of the Foundation series. An incompetent backs every action up with the threat of force as the last resort. A more competent individual such as Salvor Hardin had more sophisticated tools not relying on violence hence it was not his last refuge.

    14. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are also technologies outside of real production fabs being developed within these architecture corporations that never surface to the top. Extreme UV is a good example. A lithography tool with a 15 to 30 nano meter wave length light source. I do not have the facts in front of me but I believe they were able to go down to below 10 nano meters in line width. This has been going on for at least nine years. The event that they actually got the technology to work is an amazing feat but it to got ate up by development cost, newer technologies that sprouted out of a need for it - driven by the consumers demand. the reality of the extreme uv was probably bleak anyway as the inherent issues to make it a true functioning tool for high volume manufacturing made it an in effective tool as far as cost to manufacture. There is such a thing as pricing a tool out a budget. The good thing is whole new technologies flourished because the need for it to happen did. Any break through in new technology is just utterly exciting and welcomed.

    15. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      I think that it's meant to mean, 'if you find yourself in a situation where you feel you must use violence, you have been or are being incompetent'. In other words, you've either done something wrong in the past or you aren't seeing all your current options.

      While I see your point, Asimov meant to take it even further. Your interpetation implies that violence can be an acceptable solution to a problem. Asimov is saying that it never is, and if you think it is a valid solution, you're not seeing the whole picture.

    16. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      Obviously Asimov never had to contend with an armed robbery, rape, or violent assault before.

      Short of dying/surrendering and taking a beating/willingly participating in the rape, violence is the only option.

      Of course this could also be said as "Corollary: the above does not hold valid in the event of violence being in execution already."

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    17. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by CAIMLAS · · Score: 1

      If an economic or religious shutdown isn't violent, what is it, then? It most certainly is an exercise of force.

      (Besides, we're talking about science fiction, here. If you can tell the future, of COURSE you're going to have an alternative to violence - it's like a rapist calling to set up a time and place for an appointment. The "Asimov" model here doesn't even come close to fitting realistic real-world scenarios because of this.)

      --
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    18. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not quite. Start with the axiom "violence is the last resort." Asimov's point was that the "competent" will never reach this "last resort" because their very competence allows them to find a non-violent solution. The "incompetent" will resort to violence because no other solution they could conceive of worked.

      Restated: "If you were competent, you would not have needed violence to solve your problem."

      This quote is not classifying people by their tendancy to violence, but rather by their perception of its inevitability.

      (Gotta love it: the CAPTCHA was "uncouth".:)

    19. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the point of this is that if you're sufficiently competent you'll never need to resort to violence.

    20. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the idea is that if you're competent, you never need to resort to violence. So it's not even a last refuge. To paraphrase: carry a big stick, but make sure you talk softly.

      The incompetent fail and resort to violence. The absolute morons resort to violence first.

    21. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      While I see your point, Asimov meant to take it even further. Your interpetation implies that violence can be an acceptable solution to a problem. Asimov is saying that it never is, and if you think it is a valid solution, you're not seeing the whole picture.

      Filling one's belly involves violence, even if one is one of the strictest forms of vegan.

      Therefore, either we're all incompetent because we all eat, or there's a flaw in Asimov's logic, which I rightly pointed out in the GP.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    22. Re:Impact on Big chip manufacturers by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Wow, hey, thanks. :)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
  9. Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by NerveGas · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just think... we'll be able to have 198 cores doing nothing, now!

    --
    Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    1. Re:Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      It actually says nothing about whether or not these microprocessors would be able to operate faster.

      But assuming this is real, it one of two things:

      Maybe we'll have 200 cores which are about as fast as single cores we have now, in which case, nothing will be slower, and people who planned ahead (like Erlang developers) will find themselves running much faster. On top of that, embarrassingly parallel applications like raytracing will be that much more viable -- consider that it only took 16 cores to make a good Quake 4 raytraced, and this scales linearly.

      That, or we have 200 cores, each of which is tens or hundreds of times faster than what we've got now. In which case, WTF do I care that 198 of my cores are doing nothing, when the other two are running my Ruby and Python apps as though they were hand-optimized assembly?

      I am making one assumption, though: That RAM keeps up. It would really suck to have 198 cores sitting idle, and the other two mostly just waiting for your RAM.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    2. Re:Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by jlarocco · · Score: 1

      That, or we have 200 cores, each of which is tens or hundreds of times faster than what we've got now. In which case, WTF do I care that 198 of my cores are doing nothing, when the other two are running my Ruby and Python apps as though they were hand-optimized assembly?

      All other things being equal, C or hand-optimized assembly will still be faster than Ruby or Python. Maybe the faster processors make the Ruby and Python "fast enough", but they still won't be as fast as hand-optimized assembly language or C.

      Of course that's ignoring the possibility of a big break through in interpreter and code generation technology before these chips come out.

    3. Re:Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by maxume · · Score: 1

      I bet hand optimized assembly would still be faster (I do understand what you are driving at, but even on the 'garbage' available today, a huge swath of programming tasks are 'fast enough', even if implemented in something like Ruby or Python).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by jschen · · Score: 1

      I am making one assumption, though: That RAM keeps up. It would really suck to have 198 cores sitting idle, and the other two mostly just waiting for your RAM.

      Presumably, as chips get faster, larger caches and more intelligent caching will become ever more important. Latency for main memory access really hasn't improved much from my first computer (Mac SE) to my current computer. Happily, though, the entire contents of my first computer's hard drive can now fit in 1% of my current computer's main memory, and the entire contents of my first computer's RAM easily fits within the on-chip cache.

    5. Re:Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      All other things being equal, C or hand-optimized assembly will still be faster than Ruby or Python.

      True, and for some things, it will matter.

      But take right now -- how many apps are Ruby or Python "too slow" for, on modern processors?

      Of course that's ignoring the possibility of a big break through in interpreter and code generation technology before these chips come out.

      It seems to be pretty steadily moving along. Just look at the recent JavaScript improvements.

      Granted, none of these will be able to match hand-optimized assembly, by definition, because we can always output exactly the same program the compiler would (VM, runtime optimizations, and all), and additionally handle corner cases that the VM might be slower with.

      But that distinction is already widely considered irrelevant for C. Games are arguably the place where you'd expect vertical scalability to matter the most, yet most are going to be written in C or C++, with performance-critical bits in hand-optimized assembly. Similarly, almost all dynamic languages provide reasonable ways to write small, performance-intensive parts of your application in C, and leave the rest in your language of choice -- you could even optimize down to assembly there, if it mattered.

      Because when you get right down to it, the amount of time you're going to lose simply developing in assembly, let alone debugging, is something you can't afford for the benefit you get.

      It's doubtful Crysis would sell a single copy more if it managed to squeeze another 5-10 fps out of equivalent hardware -- everyone would still have to upgrade anyway.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    6. Re:Hooray for the Athlon64 X200! by NerveGas · · Score: 1

      RAM is actually a good point... maybe they can put 16 tiny cores on the chip, and use the rest of the real estate for SRAM.

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
  10. Isn't quantum effect the main problem now? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I thought that the real problem now wasn't our ability to get feature sizes small, but rather that at those sizes, quantum effects really start to matter.

    So how does being able to produce such small features really help us?

    1. Re:Isn't quantum effect the main problem now? by cnettel · · Score: 1

      Semiconducting is always a matter of quantum effects. The doping needed to get the desired effects are going down to single atoms, which complicates things, and tunneling can certainly also be an issue, but it's not like these things would rely on the world being essentially Newtonian.

  11. What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    100x Denser Chips

    I thought Dorito's were dumb...

  12. Plasmonic? by gsgriffin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Was this developed at the Gizmonic Institute?

    --
    jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
    1. Re:Plasmonic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations, that was the correct answer!
      You've won a lifetime supply of cheesy movies, and a fabulous vacation...

    2. Re:Plasmonic? by holywarrior21c · · Score: 1

      For those who wondered what plasmonic is: What is plasmonic?

    3. Re:Plasmonic? by gsgriffin · · Score: 1

      For those who wonder what Gizmonic Institute is? MST3K

      --
      jsut athnoer menagiensls ltitle psrhae for you to dcoede. Why do we wtsae our tmie dnoig tihs?
  13. Another maskless scanning lithography system by Yarhj · · Score: 4, Informative

    One of the difficulties with a scanning technology like this is throughput -- with mask-based lithography you can expose dice with great speed, while something like this will have to scan across the entire surface of the wafer. It sounds like there's good potential for parallelization (the article mentions packing ~100k of these lenses onto the floating head), so this technology won't necessarily be as slow as electron-beam lithography, but I can't imagine it'll be cheap either. Furthermore, the software and hardware involved must be much more complex than a conventional stepper; now you've got to modulate your light-source very rapidly, rotate your wafer, and keep track of the write-head's position to sub-nanometer precision. Tool design and maintenance costs will be pretty high, I imagine.

    1. Re:Another maskless scanning lithography system by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Informative

      so this technology won't necessarily be as slow as electron-beam lithography, but I can't imagine it'll be cheap either.

      You obviously didn't RTFA.

      Modern 40/45nm and the upcoming 23nm chips need very short wavelengths to get produced.
      This is expensive.

      The new technique uses relatively long ultraviolet light wavelengths.
      This is very cheap.

      The researchers estimate that a lithography tool based upon their design could be developed at a small fraction of the cost of current lithography tools.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Another maskless scanning lithography system by Yarhj · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Modern 40/45nm and the upcoming 23nm chips need very short wavelengths to get produced. This is expensive.

      The new technique uses relatively long ultraviolet light wavelengths.

      There's certainly a cost advantage to using longer-wavelength light for the exposure, but there's also a tradeoff in device complexity. Using longer-wavelength light for the exposure translates to cheaper lamps, mirrors, and optics, but the added complexity is going to add a lot of cost to the design and maintenance of these tools.

      A conventional stepper performs a series of mechanical and optical alignments before exposing a die on the wafer, then steps to the next die to continue the process. A lithography tool based on floating-head plasmonic technology requires at least two things:

      1. Precise control of the rotation speed. We need the pattern to be written uniformly across the entire wafer, and we want ALL the devices on the wafer to be exactly the same.

      2. Fine control of the exposure lamp. We need to expose nanometer-scale sections of a 300mm wafer, spinning at 12m/s (roughly 400rpm). Furthermore, we need to align exposures in each exposure "track" to one another.

      The hardware and software to provide this level of dynamic control will add a lot of complexity (read: $$$) to the design and operation of these tools.

      One other thing; the entire point of the floating write-head is to keep the separation between the head and the wafer constant as it scans across the wafer: the surface of a silicon wafer becomes more and more erratic as the processing continues. Surface variations are on the scale of the transistor dimensions (~50-100nm these days). This would tend to hamper the massive parallelization that the article authors hope for, as a 100k microlens write head will be significantly larger than a single transistor, and won't be able to float accurately over the surface of the wafer.

    3. Re:Another maskless scanning lithography system by julesh · · Score: 1

      This is very cheap.

      The real question is how cheap. Current generation lithography systems have become ridiculously expensive. Preparing a mask for a 65nm process costs in excess of $2M. This makes short-run production at not-even-cutting-edge technology levels extremely expensive, and basically discourages smaller chipmakers from considering any niche applications that might require higher density.

      Even if the production process is slower, if this can cut the initial preparation costs significantly, it could make the niche IC market somewhat more viable.

    4. Re:Another maskless scanning lithography system by badkarmadayaccount · · Score: 1
      Here's an idea - fuck quality control of chips, just make them able to work around faults in hardware/firmware/software (hello solaris), that way there will never ever be any duds, just slightly slower CPUs, and slightly faster ones. Production costs ought to rocket down. Heck, if not self repairing, we can make them adaptable.

      Its not that the interconnect isn't there, its just higher resistance. (for instance)

      --
      I know tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack.
  14. That's kinda the whole point by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, that's kinda the whole point. Given that today's transistors are 45nm or so, 10 times smaller would be 4.5nm, or about 15 silicon atoms IIRC. I think we can worry about that already.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:That's kinda the whole point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you consider the area instead, you could fit the same number of transistors that in current chips with a die size of only 45nm/sqrt(10) = 14.3 nm, so that would be 45 atoms.

  15. Government funding by philspear · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nano-something you say? Can it possibly be used in the production of biofuels to increase homeland security against bioterrorism? If so I have a big check for you to pick up.

  16. Re:Finally, a use for Roland's dick by philspear · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not that it matters, but that's off-topic, not flamebait.

  17. More Than Just Denser Chips by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why does it get compared to an "old-fashioned LP turntable?" It looks much like a hard drive's head in the illustration and then there's that part about air bearings later in the article.

    Anyway, beside denser chips, I can already see this change how chips are made the same way digital presses changed printing. Just load a file into a computer and you're ready to go.

  18. Re:Riemann Zeta Hypothesis Proven by XXL_Jones · · Score: 1

    TBH you sound like a fruitcake, talking like that. But the paper is quite interesting. Ever heard of Robin's Theorem, by any chance? Don't see that covered.

  19. Terrabyte drives not enough? by syousef · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I just had 2 fail over the weekend. I didn't lose anything vital because I had backups but everything I considered non-essential is gone (mostly just lots of VMWare images of various distros). At some point it beocmes a bitch to manage so much data.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Terrabyte drives not enough? by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      At the risk of veering off-topic like you were modded, I had a 1 TB (Seagate!) drive fail in the past week myself, one of a purchase of 3. In the process of RMAing it. Luckily, like you, I hadn't decided to trust any data solely to it yet; so nothing was lost. Still, that purchase more than doubled the data storage in this house, in other words, those three drives together can store more data than the 40+ other drives I have in and out of machines here. (Did I just set myself up for a burglary? :) Probably not, as they're mostly 10 GB or so...)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    2. Re:Terrabyte drives not enough? by syousef · · Score: 1

      Yeah they're damn convenient to have. I just hope reliability doesn't prove to be as bad as I suspect it will.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  20. Somewhat OT, but... by BluBrick · · Score: 1

    I just had 2 fail over the weekend. I didn't lose anything vital because I had backups but everything I considered non-essential is gone (mostly just lots of VMWare images of various distros). At some point it beocmes a bitch to manage so much data.

    How old were they? I would have thought that drives young enough to be around that capacity would be nowhere near their MTBF*. Is this a reflection of a general decline in manufacturing standards? Are manufacturing standards decreasing with increased capacity? Or is there something else about these high capacity drives that reduces their reliability?

    * Yes I understand that the M stands for mean and that some units fail earlier than most in order to make up that particular average. Still, a few years is well below the 100's of 1000's of hours usually quoted for modern high capacity drives.

    --
    Ahh - My eye!
    The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
    1. Re:Somewhat OT, but... by syousef · · Score: 1

      I bought the system in June, so around 5 months old. One had a bad block. I pulled it out and when I powered back on the other one started ticking. I have no idea what happened? Static discharge? One drive affecting the other? Who knows. Anyway they're very well ventilated (2 large case fans sitting in front of the 4 drives. Their temp had never exceeded 40 degrees (usually around 28-32 when chugging along and sat at 25 idle with some variation depending on the weather). This machine is always on though.

      Anyway I was able to pull what little I hadn't backed up off the original drive, but the one that started ticking means I lost stuff I didn't consider important enough to back up (mostly VMWare images).

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  21. Space elevators by Hal+XP · · Score: 5, Informative

    Don't forget the space elevator, which, according to the late Arthur C. Clarke will get built 50 years after it stops getting modded funny.

    --
    I'm a sci-fi vegan: I don't want the aliens to think we have as much right to live as the fried chickens we eat.
    1. Re:Space elevators by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 2, Funny

      ^^ DO NOT mod parent funny! (and that includes Neo-Luddites, trying to be funny) ^^

      --
      It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
  22. Re:Riemann Zeta Hypothesis Proven by XXL_Jones · · Score: 1

    Meh, just found out the only reason it looked interesting, is because it's a cut-and-paste job of other peoples' abstracts. Get a life.

  23. Not true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    This is completely untrue, if a transistor fails on a CPU, that's it, there's no routing around the damage as you seem to imply.

    If you'd actually read the article you referenced when queried by someone else, you'd see that was a three year study initiated in 2006, so even if that study bears fruit it'd be 5-10 years at least before it showed up in the CPUs you buy from Intel or AMD.

  24. Overlay?? by drhank1980 · · Score: 1

    Do they have a solution for controling overlay error between processing layers to less than 1.25nm?

    If the answer is no, this technology is dead in the water as far as IC fabrication goes. (but may have very useful applications in other nanotech fields)

    As someone who works in litho, I enjoy reading about any advances in resolution, but know that any advance in resolution must be accompanied by an even larger improvement in the non-insignificant task of placing each of the 10 to 50+ patterns needed to build an IC perfectly on top of each other across the various and ever changing film layers that make up todays chips.

       

  25. 30 years for hydrogen infrastructure by danwat1234 · · Score: 1

    30 years to develop a hydrogen infrastructure. Go Chevy Volt etcetera .

  26. Tunneling/Quantum effects: ~10nm by GanjaManja · · Score: 3, Informative

    the researchers that make 200-400GHz transistors today DO in fact worry very much about tunneling. (I'm thinking of InP/InGaAsP transistors)

    Quantum wells are around 5-10nm wide, so anything approaching ~20nm would at least have to account for that sort of quantum effect. So density may have a difficult limit to breach, but smaller lithography certainly makes high speed transistors easier to implement on CMOS.

    (EE, not physics)

  27. Heh. by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

    As usual, the industry thinks that Moore is better.

    --
    What a depressingly stupid machine.
  28. Gedankenexperiment by blair1q · · Score: 1

    80 nm line width?

    12 meters/second?

    assume 5x5 mm die size

    31250 80-nm lines spaced 80 nm apart can be laid on this die in one direction; twice that if the orthogonal direction is involved

    each of these lines is 5 mm long, so their total length is 312.5 meters

    at 12 m/s this will take 26 seconds per die

    a 450-mm wafer, on the other hand, if treated as one big die, would take 31.5 minutes to cover in crossing lines.

    1. Re:Gedankenexperiment by blair1q · · Score: 1

      oops. forgot to carry the 2.

      a 450-mm wafer would actually take 3.8 days to write

      and that's for just two layers

    2. Re:Gedankenexperiment by blair1q · · Score: 1

      P.S. google this to get the answer

      2 * sqrt( pi * ( 450 / 2 ) ^ 2 ) mm / 160 nm * sqrt( pi * ( 450 mm ) ^ 2 ) / 12 m/s