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Poll Finds 23 Percent of Texans Think Obama is Muslim
A University of Texas poll has found that 23 percent of Texans are convinced that Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama is a Muslim. Only 45 percent of the people polled correctly identified Obama as a Protestant Christian. Nationwide, the number of people who believe in the "Secret Muslim Conspiracy" is about the same as those who believe that the moon landing was faked (5-10 percent), which makes the high numbers in Texas unusual.
That doesn't make sense.
-- Proud Texan
A second poll found that one if four people are complete fucking idiots.
Texas is a whole 'nother country.
They have great ice cream (Blue Bell), great water parks (Schlitterbahn), nice lakes and neat caverns. But they also have a lot of insular communities in the country (I grew up in one...not fun if you disagree with the pack/herd).
What does it matter you bigoted, hateful bastards?
Stop the judgment bus there buddy!
I don't like Muslim *ideology*.
I don't like the idea that I must submit to Allah. Does this make me hateful? A bigot?
The President has the ability to veto and make decisions, and these in turn affect me, you and the world. What is his or her ideology? Are they pro women's rights? A Muslim, holding to Sharia law, sees women as less-than-human.
I can't support such an ideology.
He also said anonymous cowards are all muslim, by your logic YOU are now muslim, moron.
The tide is turning. I've been a Texan all my life. Conservative talk radio dominates the AM dial and like they say...garbage in...garbage out. I'm constantly amazed how blindly my neighbors follow the party line. Lies and innuendo are accepted as fact. I hate to admit it, but the Christian Conservative movement has turned the whole fight into an us-against-them battle and it's impossible to make rational arguments when it's gotten to that level. There are those of us here that see the absurdity and will be voting for Obama. I don't agree with everything he stands for. Illegal immigration is a huge issue here. We don't really understand why politicians don't stand up for the American worker. Our jobs are being de-valued by workers who come here and will accept a non-living wage for most Americans. Our federal government hands out money hand over fist for welfare, health benefit and education to people that have no legal right to be here. Other than that, I agree with Obama's plans completely. The myth that the market will take care of itself has finally been debunked and hopefully we will get some sane regulation put back in place. I hope we can bring our troops back home and balance the budget. I hope we can do something about health care. I hope we can do something about our reliance on foreign oil. I hope we can help the unfortunate here at home that have slipped through the cracks due to our own selfishness. I believe that Obama is our best hope for a better future...and as a native Texan...he has my vote.
I dream of the day when an atheist/agnostic person can be elected to the presidency; when a candidate's religious orientation does not matter; when we can truly have separation of church and state.
A sample size of 550 gives an error rate of less than 5%, assuming they have randomized it.
See this page for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size
Well if those 550 where a representative sample of the population of Texas then this could be a reasonable conclusion.
As long as the sample is representative, the margin of error there is only about +/- 3.5%. (Sample Size Calculator)
Most national polls use sample sizes of 1000 or less, chosen from a population of 300 million. The whole point of polling is that you don't need to talk to a huge percentage of the population in order to be confident in your results.
Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
So if Osama Bin Laden said McCain was a terrorist then he's a terrorist? Or if the Pope were to say McCain is a Catholic he's a Catholic?
You seem to have the detective skills of the fictional Scotland Yard detectives in the Sherlock Holmes stories (and that's being generous).
A Muslim no but I will pick the other corporate favorite because of their respective political views not because of any of the mudslinging either way.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget." -Thomas Szasz
Forms Republic of Dumbfuckistan
Anybody want my mod points?
What is the number of people in Texas who believe the moon landing was fake? Some states might have a higher ratio of crazy conspiracy theorists than other states, so I'm just gonna say Texas is one of those states.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
shouldn't it be "was"?
Barack Hussein Obama (aka Barack Obama, Sr) passed away when Barack Obama II was 21.
He might up there with the 72 Virginians having a beer and discussing his son's political career.
The size of the total population isn't relevant statistically. 550 people isn't a great sample size but it isn't a bad one either. The margin of error would be roughly 4%
Assuming the survey questions were phrased reasonably neither the article nor the polling display bigotry. The stats are the stats.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
23 percent of younger voters think Obama is actually Jesus.
It's not any better on the other side... :(
I don't remember anyone asking me what I thought.
UNIX is truth, the Console is life. Use Evolution to send e-mail and not virii.
I'll stand corrected when you find a link to a respectable economist that shares your sentiment.
The only problem with that statement is that it isn't true.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
23% were unable to find their asses with the aid of a flashlight. On the upside, many holes in the ground were discovered.
And this proves it, in the worst, saddest way. :(
If nothing else, this year's campaigns have shown me how easily manipulated the general public is. It's not just people in Texas, but close friends of mine. I can't even vocalize how shocked I was to have someone I always believed to be an intelligent person confide in me his belief that Barack Obama is a "secret Muslim".
I can't believe how often and with how much confidence I see pundits, news anchors, editors, and journalists make claims about one candidate and simultaneously brush off exactly the same claim about their favored candidate. I mean to watch Bill Kristol essentially say, with a smile on his face, "It's only socialist if a Democrat does it." or "They're only radical associates if we're talking about Barack Obama." and then brush off the entire conversation the moment Palin's associations are mentioned.
It makes me think of one of Dr. Phil's favorite phrases "Right Fighters". They don't want to do what works, they want to be right. 95% of the people in this country wouldn't care if the candidate they've chosen blew up the whole fucking world, they'd never admit to being wrong. They'd just smile as their skin boiled off and say "Yeah, well your guy would have been worse."
I'm ashamed to even participate in this process. I'm ashamed to be saddled with the burden of even having to share a species with Sean Hannity. I don't want the other species of the world to make the mistake of thinking we've got anything in common. More than anything else, I think this election has just made me feel hugely ashamed. It doesn't matter who wins, humanity already lost.
The political interests now directly control the media. Journalists aren't even reporting or investigating anymore, they work for lobbyists and politicians while pretending to be informing the people. It's sad that comedians like Jon Stewart are so much closer to reporting reality than Fox News or CNN. As I'm sure everyone has now watched, they discussed Marsha Brady on CNN like she's a real person. That's what this whole thing is about. People who can't differentiate between reality and fantasy. Of course so many people believe Obama is a secret Muslim, anyone who thinks the Brady Bunch is a documentary is prone to believe anything.
No, he's not Muslim, but his attending a rather radical black theology church with a rather strange pastor combined with other "interesting" seeming Muslim-sympathetic beliefs or actions do seem to point to a non-full disclosure of his beliefs, etc.
Um, you haven't read his book, have you? The first one, titled "Dreams from my Father", describes in detail how he was referred to Rev. Wright's church and what it meant to him, and described his transition from being Christian only in name to acquiring a belief system. The second one, "The Audacity of Hope", was named after the name of the first sermon he heard at Rev Wright's church and discusses the progression of his thinking and approach to government and belief. He may be accused of a lot of things, but lack of full disclosure CAN NOT be one of them. His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
Obama is the type of person who can freely discuss ideas with a great variety of people without adopting them. He especially values differing opinions, which I like as something that will help prevent any "failures of imagination" in his administration. Rev. Wright to him was a focal point for many disparate beliefs and influences, and despite some incendiary language helped him see many issues more clearly. In other words, Rev Wright was more of a lens than the source of light for Obama (at least that's my impression from his books).
I think this is why McCain has rightly shied away from challenging Obama's beliefs. Because they actually are one of Obama's strengths, especially compared to McCain's own.
E pluribus unum
Jeez, even when trying to clarify you get it wrong.
I'm sure if he was Catholic you people would be saying or implying he was a child molester.
It's fine for someone to go to a church, practice ritual cannibalism, look at some guy nailed to a cross, but not fine for this other church to spout off crazy talk.
I mean really, you are all crazy.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
More accurately...
A sample size of 550 from a Texas population of 24 million, effectively randomized, with an unknown response distribution, provides a +/-5% margin of error with a confidence level of 98%.
And I won't be citing Wikipedia, because Wikipedia is not a source.
Maybe there IS some kind of crazy connection between the moon hoax idiots and the twits who claim Obama is a "secret muslim". People have been making the same claims about Neil Armstrong for years...
http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2006/09/16/was-neil-armstrong-the-first-muslim-on-the-moon.htm
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I always wondered why the camera work was so bad...
I lived in Texas and in those days wrestling (pronounced wras-lin) was almost a religion and any suggestion that it was anything but real was considered complete heresy.
So, no, this comes as no surprise.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
How many of the 23% think that him being a Muslim would be a problem? There is difference between being uninformed and being a bigot.
A sample size of 550 gives an error rate of less than 5%, assuming they have randomized it.
See this page for more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sample_size
You also assume a normal distribution among the population in terms of behavior patterns. Funny this is brought up - just the other day, I was in a meeting with a professor and some colleagues and he mentioned how democrats tend to stop and talk to pollsters more than republicans, hence skewing the polls in favor of the democrats (it had been originally assumed that they tended to respond just as often). Whether or not this is true is another story, but it does make you wonder how flawed and biased (even unintentionally) some reports can be. As such, I do wonder how accurate this is. Are conservatives more likely to respond than liberals? Are the less educated more verbose about this than those more educated?
23% seems like an awfully high number of people who are painfully ignorant about even the most basic characteristics of Obama that I wonder if 1) the study has even been done properly to begin with (you'd be surprised how many studies are done poorly), or 2) so many people are that ignorant to begin with that they will vote for nominee X just because. Either way, scary.
OK, I'll stop rambling now that I finally downloaded Ubuntu :-)
The nature of the $700bn bailout is the same as the nature of the market itself. It is a gesture intended to put some faith in market activities again.
The biggest problem with the market is that it is driven by speculation and emotions. They fear, the market goes down. They celebrate, the market goes up. The market is too damned far removed from quantifiable standards that it should be based on.
End speculators and speculation (the way Adolf Hitler himself wanted to do) and the free market will be based on quantifiable realities and there will never again be crashes resulting from fears and panic.
So what? Last I checked the United States of America was a country with a clear separation of church and state. Why do you CARE if he is a muslim, a christian, a jew , a hindu or an athiest? All you should care about is if he is a good president. Don't give me the hogwash about his religion influencing his actions. Do not vote for a president because he is swayed by his religious beliefs, NOT because he belongs to a particular religion. Don't vote for him even if he is a christian.
Don't vote for barak obama because he is black either, just as you wouldn't want someone to not vote for him because he is black. Either way its racism. Race, religion and sexual orientation are all irrelevant to his ability to run this country. But no. thats too much work for you isn't it? Its much easier to be ignorant and prejudiced than to be informed and fair.
Will he be a better president and have better policies than John McCain? That's what you should be thinking about. That's it. NOTHING else. So what if Barak Obama is a Gay, Muslim, Black man? If you think any of those three inherently affects his ability to run this country, then you are ignorant and frankly shouldn't be allowed to vote.
- Tempestdata
Also, do muslims regard Obama as a muslim?
This is entirely irrelevant unless you yourself allow religious people to rule over your life. The catholic church claims that everyone who is baptized cannot "really" leave the church. Well, I was baptized, I left the church, and I am not a christian whatever the pope may think.
Muslims claim that [...] if you leave the muslim faith, sharia law demands your execution.
Some muslims believe that apostasy must be punished. Admittedly, they are currently in some powerful positions, but the situation would be better if the US governments hadn't put them into power all the time.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
In any case many of these people are bigots, but bigotry is not socially acceptable, so they come up with other reasons to justify their fears. You want to attack Arab people, say their religion is denerate. You don't want Arab people in your work place, say that prayer is bad and planning life around worship rather than profit is bad. You don't want to vote for a black/asian/american male, then say he is not christian. Of course the man that divorced his wife to marry a prettier younger and wealthier woman is.
If this is not enough, say he associates with terrorists and his wife hates america and his pastor hates amerca. Of course the candiate that actually courts terrorists organization, and goes to a church that believes witches are the cause of all problems, and whose husband was a member of an organization that has publicly stated that america is bad and has damned everything about amerca, and the candidate herself comes from a state where right now they are damning the america judical system, is irrelevent. Because these candidates are not dark skinned
To be fair not all republicans are bigoted christian rednecks. Many are quite rational. But enough of them are that the RNC has been the primary force behind the use of white supremacist rhetoric to mobilize the masses, re McCain and Palin inciting persons at their rallies to scream "Terrorist, Kill Him" at rallies.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
What if all "respectable economists" are stupid? I would be more interesting in hearing a detailed, mathematical analysis of why the bailout is needed. Paranoia and gut feelings of "respectable economists" don't count. There was no evidence given, by anyone, that the commercial paper market couldn't sort itself out (with some casualties, of course, but that's life). If you claim that these economists know better than us, please give a link to their detailed explanations. It's not possible to come to these conclusions without doing some number crunching. Where is it?
...is the fact that in an interview Obama made a reference to his "muslim faith" then said "oh, that was a slip, I meant to say christian faith". I've known many people who converted from one religion to another (including Muslims who became Christians) and have never before heard someone "slip" like that. It's like someone "accidentally" saying "I'm a republican.......oh that was a slip......I mean, I'm a democrat".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Modded down = Obama fanatic lashes out.
he was raised as a Muslim
[citation needed]
and studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia.
No, he didn't. He studied at a school in Indoneisa, but calling it an "islamic" school is like calling all schools in the US "christian".
he had no problem with going to a church with an hateful racist pastor
Uhh, if you check, you'll find that he *doesnt* go to that church anymore, which kind of implies that he *does* have a problem with it.
Perhaps you need to catch up on your propaganda. I think you're supposed to be calling him a Marxist now.
Moreover, if fundamentalist muslims want him dead for his supposed attempts to leave the muslim faith, that kind of puts a point as to how trivial it would be, it doesn't make him still a muslim (and again, that's assuming he ever was, which he wasn't).
And, once he does die, he'll probably be baptized by proxy into the mormon church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_for_the_dead) so really who is to say what religion he is? Is he all three? Absurd.
Studies have shown time and time again that throwing money at public education doesn't produce better students if the kids don't want to learn / have parents who will make them do the work. We've also seen through the last century how stealing money from people who work and giving it to people who are too lazy to work / won't put out the effort required to get a well paying job ends up dragging everyone down. If Obama really cared about helping poor people he wouldn't be saying "I'm going to steal money from the evil white people and give it to you!" he'd say "The only person who can really help you is yourself. You have to decide that you REALLY want a better life and work for it. Sure, you may need help from friends / a church / a charity to get you started, but the vast majority of it is purely on you" and point to countless examples of people who had a bad life, were born into poverty, and then chose to make something of themselves instead of just staying where they were because it required less effort.
Obama will only drag the country as a whole down and help keep the poor poor (which has long been a tactic of the Democrats since then they can always blame the evil white Republicans and keep getting the same people to vote for them). I can't wait to laugh when Obama gets elected and the stock market doesn't magically change, people don't magically stop doing crack and start going to school, etc. Maybe that's the wake up call this country needs though, for everyone to put their blind faith into their messiah and when he fails to bring about the utopia they believe he will, they will realize that socialism is NOT going to make anything better. -- only hard work (and being able to receive the benefits if your hard work) can make things better.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The problem isn't that he is or isn't Muslim, but rather that it appears by all accounts that he was at least for a time raised Muslim, and then turned his back on the religion - an apostate, and the worst kind, according to the Christian Science Monitor, because he was "gifted by Allah" to be born a Muslim, and then renounced the religion. I think the real fear with if he is/was Muslim at any point during his life is if the Muslim community considers him an apostate, it could give them another reason to attack the U.S. if Obama is elected.
Catholics gave up crusading a few centuries ago. Islam seems to be getting into that "phase" now, which makes sense to me, as Islam started several centuries later.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
For what it's worth, I had a Muslim friend who was going to a catholic school because his parent thought the education was better in that particular school. He's still a Muslim even though he has been tutored by catholic nuns. I also met a couple of people who were born and raised catholic and turned to Islam when they grew older. Religion is about what you believe in, not really what school you attended. There's a good verse in the Coran (or was it an Hadith) that say something along the line of "If someone calls himself a muslim and you call him an infidel you are in fact the infidel" (because it's for god to judge who is a pious man and who is not etc.. etc..).
I was forcefully baptized when I was 2 months old and my parents dragged me to sunday school and forced me through 1st communion.. I don't consider myself a catholic, most of it sounds like crap to me. Which matters? That I was forced to say a few ave maria and our father or that I really can't give a damn about it thirty years later?
Its KINGDOM of Dumbfuckistan!
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I must have caught the Islamic school from a bad source, then. As for that church he attended, he was fine going to that church for as long as he did. He only denounces it because it's bad press. It either means that he agreed with the pastor or he he's a dispassionate Christian. Either way.
Still, we should choose our leaders. If I don't believe somebody is righteous, I will not follow them.
dun dun DUN!
It wasn't long ago that Kyle stated 1/4 of Americans are retarded. Perhaps what Kyle meant was that 1/4 of REAL Americans are retarded.
Before diving into the numbers, here is a detailed article about how derivatives had been predicted to fail extraordinarily in difficult times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/business/economy/09greenspan.html?bl
Here is the Economist's take on the bailout bill: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?source=hptextfeature&story_id=12305249
And finally here is the Economist's explanation of why the bill could work (yes, with numbers): http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12305746
It isn't a scholarly work. The only thing I could find for free would be transcripts of presentations made on the floor when Bernanke and Paulson were trying to convince Congress to pass the bill. Do you REALLY want me to find the links to those transcripts?
Confirmed: Barack Obama Practiced Islam
Well, Osama Bin Laden can call President George W. Bush a Muslim for efficiently doing something that he couldn't do - increase membership to al-Qaeda. But that wouldn't make Geroge W. Bush a Muslim. When I visit my relatives in Iran, the government of Iran considers me a Muslim, but I don't consider myself one, and I'm not. They don't ask me to pray five times a day and don't quiz me on the Koran upon entering the country. And so what if Senator Obama WAS a Muslim? There is no way Obama would be able to suddenly install Sharia Law all over America (which is what most people fear) without approval from Congress and the American people. He would be impeached for treason immediately.
There are many American Muslims that would be certainly qualified for Presidency. There are also many Muslims that serve in the U.S. Armed Forces, but I don't see you bitching about them. So it's okay for them to die for this country, but not okay to lead it?
I couldn't care less about a candidate's religion unless they wore it on their sleeve and wanted to pass laws and executive orders that changed the way I lived. This is precisely why the current crop of Republicans concern me, because they abandoned their "small Government" platform and went after the evangelical vote. They started pandering to the very people who want ME to follow their laws, their version of history, and their Bible. I am willing to vote for a Muslim, a Christian, a Catholic, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian, an Atheist, and a Satanist (etc.) as long as they lead the country with rational thinking, intelligence, and submit to the will of the American people, not the other way around.
Besides, Obama would not last a MINUTE in office if he became President, then suddenly said "GOTCHA, I'm an evil Muslim, and I'm going to enslave you infidels." :P
Best "String" Ever!
"Most people opposed the $700 billion bailout."
That's because no one laid out what they were going to do with it.
I wouldn't give my daughter $20 without her being able to explain what she was going to spend it on, but I am supposed to trust the same guys who got us into the economic mess with another $700B?
And how many of those economist that you spoke of were in favor of deregulating the market creating the mess? How many could tell us the likelihood that they'll be back asking for another $700B?
I am just counting down the days until we get the stories of how the corrupt lenders who got us into this mess will profit massively from this transfer of wealth.
I'm amazed even 35% of the people were in favor of it.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
Well that just makes you look like a tin-foil wearing; crazed conspiracy lunatic. No one in their right mind believes that beyond the far right AM talk show nut jobs. Just present one once ounce of real proof that your conspiracy holds any truth. Come on...require more of your self than that. When someone tells you something...ask yourself..can they back that up with facts? What are the facts? What is the agenda of the person reporting? Use a little intellectual brain power instead of primal fear instincts and require more of yourself. Obama is not the devil and if you believe that....I'm sorry for you.
"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while." - G W Bush (Sept 21, 2001)
Well, the $700B bailout really was just a gesture. The EU used almost $2T to back their banking system and the asian countries about $1T. Since each of those economic areas is about the same size as the US economy (~$14T/year) it really puts the US plan in perspective.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Do your professors know much about polling? Any serious political poll weights its data based on the expected 'shape' of the population. So, even if 75% of the respondents were democrats, or women, or asian, the final results would not be affected very much.
Actually, no, that's not what I meant. Personally, I find all religion equally stupid, but that is irrelevant. You should read Mein Kampf. Hitler had a lot more to say than kill jews.
Given that many Americans are completely unaware of what Roe Versus Wade is, who the president is at any given time, or how many justices sit on the supreme court, this result is not terribly shocking. It's easy to pick on Texas but It's sort of silly. All you've discovered is that a more rural state is about 10% off of the mainstream.
Studies have shown time and time again that public education produces people who say things like "studies have shown time and time again" without actually ever referring to a single such study.
What interview? I think this is another talk-radio generated lie.
One's religious beliefs are a state of mind. It is not possible to observe this state unless you are the observer. Unless you are Barack Obama, you cannot possibly know whether Barack Obama is a Muslim, a Protestant Christian, a Zoroastrian, or an atheist. What he claims or outwardly practices is irrelevant, as is what anyone in Texas thinks of him. You don't know. I don't know. Only he knows. And the exact same thing can be said for every other human being alive, including John McCain.
This is why religious beliefs are irrelevant when choosing leaders. You just can't know.
73% of Texans believe the government blew up the twin towers and that the whole muslim and planes thing is just a cover story.
So it all evens out.
Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
If a man is offered a fact which goes against his
instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless
the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to
believe it.
If, on the other hand, he is offered something
which affords a reason for acting in accordance
to his instincts, he will accept it even on the
slightest evidence.
The origin of myths is explained in this way.
The only 'religious' thing he's done is attend the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's church for 20 years, who he now disowns for political reasons. Obama's mother was atheist. He never knew his father. His step-father was muslim.
So many KKK members support McCain.
Maybe just maybe one might have went to his fundraiser and speeches... gasp! Wow McCain is a radical biggot who hates all black people!
Guilt by association was tried in the 1950's and most Americans except those on the far right do not care. Its MCarthy -ism at its finest.
http://saveie6.com/
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=74635 It was a televised interview on ABC.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
There was a great deal of concern that, being Catholic, JFK might take his orders from the Pope, instead of enforcing the Constitution. Until he was elected, it was widely believed that only a Protestant could be elected President.
It all turned out to be bunk. Kennedy's religion did not dictate his policies, and neither will Barack Obama's.
The rumor of 'secret Muslim' is untrue, but more importantly, it's already been proven that his religion is irrelevant. Only his ability to "uphold the Constitution" and do what is best for America is important.
Those who religion is the relevant criterion seek to undermine the Constitution of this country.
Just read what Mike Hucakbee has to say about it:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/01/15/579265.aspx
Seriously, our Constitution avoids the mention of God for a freaking reason. The founders had a big problem with the head of the Church of England.
--
Toro
He's a member of a bigoted, ethnocentric, racist CHRISTIAN church.
-Styopa
BTW, even if you ignore all the connections to a religeon that is hostile to our form of law, that's some serious foreign influence. It's pretty bad having a president who has unusual personal feelings toward some other part of the world.
He's also a college professor (constitional law) and a community organizer.
I get a different read off Obama. Some people judge their success by how much they can do for themselves other people judge their success by how much they can do for others.
McCain, the read I get off him is that he's doing it partially out of force of habit and partially because he likes being the big dog in the room. Obama, though, strikes me as different. I get the sense that he judges his success based on how much he can do for others.
You may be right that Obama will turn out to be just like every other politician but I get a different read off him. I get the sense of a sincerity and seriousness that has been lacking in pretty much every politician I've ever listened to from Reagan, through the Clintons and Bushes all the way up to McCain and Palin.
With Obama, I get the sense that he tailors what he says to the voters but that there is an underlying substance. With McCain, for example, I get the sense that he's saying what will get votes without regard to any underlying truth or substance.
I get the impression that Obama understands that just keeping poor people fed and sheltered isn't going to solve the problem: that, ultimately, advances in both science/technology and our understanding of society will be required to solve the problem of poverty.
Obama, the college professor, want to find new solutions to problems of poverty because Obama, the community organizer, judges himself on the basis of how much he can do for others.
23% of the Texas population are morons.
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
I have a feeling that about half of these Texans are well aware that he calls himself a Protestant. It's that they don't believe him. It's not as if Nation of Islam and other Muslim organizations don't have footholds among African-American communities.
Not to say that I think he's a Muslim, mind; I just see why they're suspicious.
Bah. This is just another one of those polls they do so people on the coasts can get their USRDA of smug. First of all, it's a self-selected internet-only poll, which tells you right off the top we're not dealing with science here. It oversamples young people, Democrats, hispanics, and people without a college education. Also, it doesn't make the distinction between people who just don't know anything about him and people who think he's lying.
"Obama is a muslim" could be a brand new movie from the same crew who filmed "Weapons of mass destruction in iraq".
The government has to subsidize farmers, pay them NOT to grow food, and store the excess, including cabbage, because the prices are so low.
If the farmers had to pay a living wage to the food pickers, the price would naturally elevate to the point the government might not have to subsidize them anymore.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
I'd say 100%.
Wasn't the Senator raised by his mother and Grandmother? I wasn't aware that they were Muslim.
The best public high school in Illinois (ask Newsweek), New Trier in Winnetka has the highest per pupil spending of any school in Illinois. The city and downstate schools can't match that, plus they have to deal with problems New Trier doesn't:
Kids who's parents can't afford computers
Kids whose parents can't afford breakfast
Kids whose parents have problems paying for school supplies
Kids whose parents public and school libraries can't afford books.
New Trier has a fencing club...fencing, at a public high school. They have a radio station, they have a newspaper. They got all kinds of shit that gives them HUGE advantages over kids in poorer schools. Don't believe me? Head to the Universities
Take a look at who works on the Uni newspapers or uni radio/tv stations, or is involved in student goverment It's the kids from places like new trier. The first thing a Uni newspaper/radio station/tv station will ask someone who wants to write/work for them is "what did you do at your schools newspaper/radio station/tv station"
Hell even when it comes to computer programming or IT, those New Trier type kids are ahead. Remember Robert Tappan Morris, his daddy got him a shell account as a kid, so by the time he hit MIT he was years ahead of say some poor kid from bumfuck Illinois who might not have ever touched a computer and had no Dad that worked for Bell Labs or something.
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Darn right, I was circumcised as an infant and turned out to be hypospadic (with meatal stenosis). Hypospadic boys should never be circumcised as it prevents the most effective fixes to the problems involved. Apparently the doctor didn't notice, though I suspect what he did was use the circumcision as cover to try to fix worse hypospadias that my parents didn't notice. My circ is unusual.
And the doctors never actually gave my parents information on what was going on. When problems cropped up they just said things, like oh we need to operate or we need to regularly dilate. I only found out shit as an adult
Fuckers, which is why I am opposed to circumcision (though I'm not a member of those no-circ groups)
Um, you haven't read his book, have you? The first one, titled "Dreams from my Father", describes in detail how he was referred to Rev. Wright's church and what it meant to him, and described his transition from being Christian only in name to acquiring a belief system. The second one, "The Audacity of Hope", was named after the name of the first sermon he heard at Rev Wright's church and discusses the progression of his thinking and approach to government and belief.
Are these books written just because he felt the urge to write multiple autobiographies by the age of 47 or because he might have had some political objectives (such as improving his electability) in mind when he wrote them?
It's hardly a far fetched idea that politicians tend to write autobiographical works only for the sake of building the kind of public persona that they can sell to the public at election day.
He may be accused of a lot of things, but lack of full disclosure CAN NOT be one of them.
Only if publication of some hollow and lousy excuses qualifies as full disclosure. At some point he was comparing the public comments of his pastor to the comments that his white grandmother allegedly made in private. Quite a lousy excuse, I would say.
His entire life is, quite literally, an open book available for all to read.
You are making the rather bold assumption that he is being honest. To me it's like believing that a commercial you have seen on TV-shop is full disclosure. Politicians are in general are not very honest, especially when they are campaigning. I don't think that what they say on the campaign trail or write in their autobiographies should be taken very seriously.
IMO, the best way to judge a politician is by their their associations and their past decisions and votes, which I think places Obama firmly in the radical camp.
My perception of him is that he is the kind of "pragmatic" politician who says (and even writes an autobiography or two) what's necessary to get elected. He knows very well that if he starts to honestly tell the public how much he agrees with Wright, then his electability goes down to zero. IIRC, even his former pastor noted that he is just saying what's necessary to get elected.
If Obama gets elected, then it will be very interesting to see to which degree he will act out on his radical beliefs. Especially interesting is what kind of judges he will appoint, since that is one of the few things that might reveal a president's true beliefs, especially if his party get a filibuster proof majority in the senate. My conjecture is that if he gets a chance to nominate someone to SCOTUS, then that person will have a belief system that is rather similar to his former pastor and church.
Obama is the type of person who can freely discuss ideas with a great variety of people without adopting them.
Why is this? Is it only because liberals are never found guilty by the media elite because of an association?
Are Obama also engaging in discussions with the extreme right or is it with the left side only?
Can a white republican freely discuss with white racialists without being tarnished by these associations? Just as a friendly exchange of ideas between people of very different beliefs?
He especially values differing opinions, which I like as something that will help prevent any "failures of imagination" in his administration.
He seemed to have a quite sensitive skin when Don Imus said something "incendiary".
Rev. Wright to him was a focal point for many disparate beliefs and influences, and despite some incendiary language helped him see many issues more clearly.
What incendiary language? To me Wright's language seemed to be completely in line with the church's BLT teachings. The church has also had at least ano
You mean like "we'll tax 5% of the people and give it to the other 95%" class warfare thing?
I'm interested. Other than a potential tax credit for the poorest a lá Milton Freaking Friedman (socialist if there ever was one, right?), can you point to any kind of program where anybody in the 95% will get direct cash disbursements?
I'm also not aware of any tax proposals from Obama where 95% will escape paying taxes.
If you want to argue against progressive taxation, that's one thing. But these other things look like hyperbole or sloppy generalizations to me.
Tweet, tweet.
It is good that there aren't any embarrassing videos of Sarah Palin and a pastor asking to protect her from witchcraft or that she at least used to go to a church that believes in speaking in tongues or anything. I would find that a lot more disturbing than anything I've heard Wright say.
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Poll finds 23 percent of Texans are fucking idiots.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp
The context makes it clear. This was nothing like what is being suggested happened.
I was baptised christian, according to the doctrines of the church I was baptised in, that means I am still a christian.
This is irrespective of the fact that I do not believe (and have NEVER believed) in a higher power, consider religion to be a dangerous kind of mental disorder, and actively argue the point with people if they bring it up. Somehow, I'm still a christian. If somewhere in Obama's past, someone with the "authority" to do so declared him a muslim (whether that did or did not happen, I neither know nor care), then he's probably as much as muslim now as I am a christian now.
Personally, I'd love to see him get elected and then come out with, "Oh, by the way, I'm actually an atheist - I attended a christian church, because their morals are good, and the muslim teachings I saw in my younger years were also pretty interesting, but really, I think it's all crap".
I can't see it happening, but it'd be wonderful if it did.
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No, Islamic crusades have already happened - in fact, "crusades" were the first thing that happened, starting with Muhammad times. Don't expect the development of Islam to parallel the development of Christianity - they're vastly different religions, and, probably even more importantly, they have developed in very different political and social environments.
Watching that, he said:
You're absolutely right that John McCain has not, uh, talked about my muslim faith
Then, after being "corrected" to say "christian faith", he STARTED to say:
Well, what I'm saying is he hasn't suggested about... [interruption] that... [interruption] that I'm a muslim
The only interpretation I can get out of that is that he is not muslim, but could have been made out to be one (but wasn't)
Personally, I'd prefer if he were neither muslim nor christian, but at least he seems relatively moderate in his religious views (regardless of all of the hype about his pastor - it doesn't appear he believes in the radical viewpoints espoused by that guy, simply that he was with the church because overall, the message was fairly positive (and I'd agree from watching some of the stuff from them))
For the record, in case you haven't already seen my posting history on it, I'm very strongly atheist and against religion in general. I do realise that there are some good morals given by the majority of religions of course, just strongly disagree with the method in which they're given.
My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
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We can hope so...
My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
Also on facebook as: DroppingAcidDaleBewan
Right or wrong, they'll all be drowned in the sea in a short while!
-- thinkyhead software and media
...so we'd have even more unskilled people who would have to do those crap jobs!
-- thinkyhead software and media
People latch on to things that reinforce their beliefs and attitudes. The cultures and personalities that are attracted to Fundamentalism or Objectivism, or any prepackaged Ism are simply looking to obtain easy authority, a sense of superiority, and divine (or metaphysical) justification for their untenable attitudes.
Of course, what's good or not is ultimately justified by one's peers - if those around you think it's okay, it's okay - if they think it's bad, it's bad. Socially-dependent people adapt their attitudes to suit the culture they find themselves in.
To get beyond the literal interpretation of scripture or the rigid structure of a philosophy takes some real brains and experience, and a sensitivity to subtlety which most people seem to lack - perhaps because they're too downtrodden to rise above. To interpret something like Genesis (which is such a simple and obvious allegory!) as if it were the literal truth is just plain intellectual folly, and frankly... it harms the mind and poisons the heart.
But it goes on and on, because ugly hearts are oppressing good hearts by way of mob oversight.
-- thinkyhead software and media
To disagree with all your points would require a lot more clarification that I have to go on, but I do disagree with your use of the term religion and whether the beliefs rather than the statements of belief matter.
Religion is a general term that refers to a set of beliefs and practices, which may include having spiritual beliefs or faith in something bigger than yourself. Having faith is also generic, however, and has to do with trusting rather than believing. Both terms are too generic to condemn or condone alone. Arguing that "People who have religion don't have faith; they just have religion" is an exercise in semantic debate rather than addressing the real points.
Based on his statements, Obama does not hold the same beliefs as the majority of those who call themselves Evangelical Christians. Very few would say the same for McCain.
What someone says they believe isn't as important as what they actually believe, because while statements may convince enough voters to get someone elected, they don't necessarily reflect what someone will do after they are elected. To take a couple of examples:
Obama questions which parts of the Bible should shape public policy by pointing to Leviticus as "suggests slavery is okay" when most Evangelicals would view the same book as dealing with those in authority under non-applicable Old Testament law and not as an endorsement of slavery at all. If he disagrees with the majority of Evangelicals on that, questioning what he believes about the rest of the Bible is a legitimate issue for many, particularly where it concerns the central text of their belief and what legislation he might support, justices he might appoint and what he might veto
In the end, it is the beliefs of the candidates that are absolutely critical to voters, rather than the statements they make for the sake of getting power. Disputing based on terminology, particularly religion as opposed to faith, does not further the discussion.
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
If you go through it, your link shows the exact same transcript of the relevant portion of the interview as mine did. The difference? Your source makes assumptions about why Obama said what he said, because of course the Messiah could never, ever lie, make a mistake, or mislead anyone at any time, ever. That would be blasphemy. Instead, it must have just been that the evil white interviewer was forcing words into his mouth.
I get why some people would think that it was a misunderstanding and not a slip, but if it wasn't a slip, he would have said something along the lines of "John McCain has never alleged that I was / am a Muslim" not "has not talked about my Muslim faith".
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The Evil Xenophobes Are Stupid. Fair dinkum. I mean: a) he's not, and b) even if he were, who cares?! For fuck's sake, 23% of Texas, grow the fuck up.
Athy, athier, athiest.
I believe Obama is Christian. Because I heard him say he is.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
Allow me to establish a hypothetical.
You are running for the position of president of Iran. The opposition, who has been in power for eight years (piggybacking on the votes of religious segment of Iran) have fielded the most unpopular president in the history of Iran.
Based upon your platform of reform and change, you have a huge amount of popularity abroad and a fair bit at home- you know that, if elected, you could do so much good in the nation of Iran. You have a reform plan and a heap of ideas- but there's one problem. You're a Christian, and there are a lot of Muslims in Iran who would *never* vote for you simply because of your religious affiliations- you have to swear on the Koran just to hold office, after all, and the national motto is "In Allah we Trust". Still, not every Iranian is religious and you attend an Islamic church- there's a lot about Islam you agree with, after all, even if you know that your heart really belongs to Christianity. Just to touch things off, you're also white in a nation of mostly arabs, which most Iranians can see past but some just simply refuse to.
You also know that the opposition leader favours the policies of the previous administration, which has harmed Iran both internationally and domestically. You know that the policies of fear, racism and doubt have no place in modern politics, but it's hard convincing the Iranian hardliners about that. They've discovered fear to be a very useful tool, thank you very much, and they're happy to use it against you. These people need to be stopped- but they won't elect a muslim. It's impossible.
What would you do?
Now, that was a pretty thinly veiled metaphor if I do say so myself, but my point remains. So? So what if he's a Muslim? Almost everything bad people have to say about Islam (oppression of women, violent, restricts liberty, strange rituals, etc) can be said about Christianity too. Do people honestly think that if they elect a Muslim to president, he'll round up all the Christians and have them shot? Force people to convert? Has any Christian president forced people to convert to Christianity? Hardly.
Barrack Obama isn't a Muslim. But if he was, it should not be an issue in the slightest. Australia (my country) had a firmly atheist Prime Minister and the world didn't end. In fact, Australia went along quite nicely, thank you very much.
Check out my sci-fi book "Lacuna" at http://goo.gl/MVxX8
Can the parent be modded up any higher? How about a new category, like "Perfect Post". I'm really glad I scrolled down far enough to see someone else who's actually read enough about Barack Obama, including his own words, to form a valid opinion here. That seems to be severely lacking here in America, even here in Slashdot, as evidenced by other posts in this same thread.
One of the biggest problems with American democracy is the perpetuation of the fallacy, that one can form a valid opinion on any subject, without any research into that subject. Most of the time, what you have is NOT a valid opinion -- it is merely an agreement with someone else whose opinion you may trust, good or bad. Research references are one thing, but wholesale agreement with a random "expert", whose background and research you are not familiar with, is just ignorance with a better label.
I can say one thing in the favor of quoting random "experts". Consistently agreeing with ignorant knee-jerk bigots, like certain Texas pastors, or Fox News, clearly identifies you as a bigot. I am familiar with a variety of bigot media, unfortunately because my own racist family members quote it to me all the time. So, when you quote the bigot media, even without proper attribution, I can easily identify you. Thanks for the self-labeling!
If you haven't done your own research, please don't vote. The other fallacy of American democracy is that every vote, no matter how backwards or ignorant the voter, should count equally. In other words, if you can fool most of the people, just long enough for a single voting period, you should win. You can clearly see the results of this fallacy in all elections involving George Herbert Walker Bush. Drink beer with him as he watches Dick, or now Palin, push the button. I'm sure you'll have a great time, with the last beer ever.
Except there is no basis for believing that he is a Muslim at all. It defies all sense unless you have a sense of reality that is a cross between The Manchurian Candidate and Austin Powers.
Do you really think he would have been able to come all this way as a crypto-Muslim? Fooling his own grandparents at the age 7 and beyond? The so-called slip is a basic subjunctive tense.
It has nothing to do with being a messiah or such. I have disagreements with Obama, particularly on his health care plan: I actually think that both HRC and JM are, in their own ways, more right than BO is (HRC is right that BO will not insure everyone; JM is right to seek to uncouple health insurance from employment.) That the main reasons people like you come up with for not voting for Obama are tinfoil-hat material is what is really at stake.
My main reason for not voting for him is that he's a socialist / communist who'll do irreparable damage to our country. I don't know about you, but I sure don't want to live in the Soviet States of America.
The Muslim part is just a matter of "seriously, how can you trust this guy?" on the side. And "Fooling his own grandparents at the age of 7" -- who says they were fooled? Do you really think that they couldn't be lying too? And yes, it does say in the Qu'ran that it's ok to lie if it furthers the cause of Islam . Is he a terrorist plant? I doubt it. COULD he be? Yes.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
His white, Kansan grandma might secretly be a subversive Muslim communist collaborator?
Good God, you've lost the plot.
I said he's probably NOT a terrorist agent. However, he knows as well as everyone else that a Muslim has less chance of becoming president of the US than a hobo who never made it past the 3rd grade. Perfect reason for friends and family to lie, so that he can get elected. Politicians lie all the time to get elected.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
My statement "we can hope so", was that he's "not Christian and is actually a godless socialist who has used his Christian church as a cover for his run for President" from the GGP post - I wasn't meaning "we can hope so" with regard to him not being Muslim. (although, to be quite honest, I consider both religions equally as bad as each other).
I was aiming for a combination of "funny" and "insightful" mods based on that, but will probably get "Troll" if anything from the religious nutjobs of the world. (both Christians correctly interpreting and Muslims misinterpreting - both probably hate me!)
My book about LSD and Self-Discovery
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My question to you is - have you read about what the church he attended for so many years actually believes? One usually does not attend a church for 20 years unless you actually believe some of what the church holds to.
Secondly, I find it interesting that you basically are willing to accept whatever Obama says in his book or says on the campaign trail. Have you ever considered looking at other sources of information other than an autobiography? For example, if McCain wrote an autobiography or two, and I cited that as my main source of information about why I thougth McCain was such a great guy, would that be credible? I kinda doubt it.
Whether or not McCain shied away from challenging his beliefs is, IMO, irrelevant. I am honestly not a fan of McCain, other than the fact that he did go through some very hard times for his country, and that is to be respected (interestingly, Obama appears to have no respect for anything - not McCain's beliefs, not McCain's age, not McCain's life, not McCain's bipartisanship [something that annoys me - McCain is too liberal for me], not even McCain's servitude of his country. Why can't Obama respect something other than himself?)
"I'm sure if he was Catholic you people would be saying or implying he was a child molester."
Only if his particular Catholic church actually had that in their theological statement. Have you read the theological statement of the church? Have you heard anything Wright has said? Or are you just going based on what you see or read in the media, Obama's words/books/ads, etc. If the latter, you're only getting one side (the Obama side). If the former, I would be interested to know your take on the church's theological statements. (Wikipedia has information on it, even, it's not that hard to find).
But Texans can't even absorb the Republican smears about his church.
Honestly, there should be some multiple choice questions voters have to pass to weed out the people who are so uninformed they shouldn't be voting:
Barack Obama is:
A: Muslim
B: Christan
John McCain's running mate is:
A: Sarah Palin
B: Tina Fey
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”
0% of that 23% got around to registering to vote.
I’m old enough to remember 16K of memory being described as “whopping”