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Multi Theft Auto - San Andreas Goes Open Source

Posted by timothy on from the prometheus dept.

dan writes " Multi Theft Auto is a third-party modification for Rockstar's hit title Grand Theft Auto San Andreas — and it has become open-source after over four years of closed source development. As a (somewhat) regular player of MTA since the early days of GTAIII, this hit me by surprise, somewhat." (The news is on the project's front page, from which dan extracts more details, below.) dan continues: "Some of the interesting parts of the post: 'Today we are marking a new milestone in the history of Multi Theft Auto. After over 11000 revisions since 2004, contributions by over 16 world-wide developers, 1554 files and well over 550.000 lines of mostly C/C++ code, we have made the decision to re-launch Multi Theft Auto as an open-source project.

By open sourcing our project, we are encouraging anyone who is willing to participate in this project, to participate. For that reason, we are not 'just' offering our source code: we have also opened our bug tracker and will be offering public access to our nightly build system that will be compiling a build every day (and has been long used for testing purposes). This way, any developer will be able to run the latest revisions, file bugs or submit patches.

This is particularly exciting given that the released source is based upon the MTA Blue core, which in theory can be applied to any single player game. The source will no doubt be useful and provide foundations for future projects and the progression of the mod itself.'"

127 comments

  1. Can you go head to head? Can you use cheats? by syousef · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'd love to call up a harrier and go head to head with another harrier. Rocket packs would be good too.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  2. Anonymity by QuantumG · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've seen a bunch of "open source" game projects where the developers use pseudonyms to contribute. A few of these projects don't even have any contact information to get in touch with the developers. This basically makes their licensing pointless. Anyone can slap the GPL or a BSD-alike license on a bit of code, but it doesn't mean anything unless someone is willing to stand up and claim copyright on the code.. and that means a real human with a legal name. Throwing some code, that you value, out into the world without your name on it isn't philanthropy, it's just stupidity. If someone wants to shut down one of these projects, all they have to do is claim that they wrote it. They then can write up a DCMA takedown notice and the actual authors have no way to prove that they are the legitimate copyright owners.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
    1. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why the hell would they care, they're under pseudonyms?

    2. Re:Anonymity by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If someone wants to shut down one of these projects, all they have to do is claim that they wrote it.

      And pray that you don't get a serious legal smackdown laid on you if it ever did happen to go to court. There are ways to demonstrate authorship and link pseudonyms to real people when you get down to it; they're not perfect, but are you willing to risk the chance they work?

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    3. Re:Anonymity by maevius · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am sure that after 550.000 lines of code, they have some way of proving that they own the code they were developing for all these years even if that is a log file

    4. Re:Anonymity by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why the hell would who care? If your question is, why would people who worked for years and years on a project be a little sad if they had their project taken down and the only way they could put it back up was to put a legal fight.. I think maybe you're capable of figuring that out for yourself. If you mean, why would a court care that they were using pseudonyms and not their real names? Because that's the thing about pseudonyms, anyone can claim to be the owner of them and the court can't tell who is lying.

       

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sign your releases, then. Public key encryption is easy.

    6. Re:Anonymity by lysergic.acid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      what's to stop someone from downloading all of the files and revisions, removing the author's names and replacing their own, and putting up their own MTA site claiming that they were the original authors?

      i don't see how typing your name in a text file is going to provide any kind of added protection against someone trying to take credit for your work.

      whether they use a pseudonym or not, the original MTA authors still have several important things on their side:

      • a public history of publishing the code on the web (i.e. they have users, fans, and site visitors as their witness)
      • they probably have unpublished files like raw artwork, PSD files, e-mails, and other local records of their development
      • they own the domain name, web hosting account, Google Code account, e-mail address, and other accounts used in the project's development.
      • they have the truth on their side.

      book authors publish under pseudonyms, or noms de plume, so why can't programmers?

    7. Re:Anonymity by QuantumG · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Yeah, that's not how it works.

      See, these guys don't want to be identified. That's why they don't have their names on the stuff. So basically the only way they can stop someone from fucking them over is by identifying themselves..

      It's a pretty obvious catch-22.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    8. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you can use a fake "real name" as a pseudonym. What's stopping you from claiming that as you?

    9. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're suggesting no one is fool enough, Darl McBride isn't real busy right now.

    10. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, maybe it's time I was more open about this then. I wrote the code.

    11. Re:Anonymity by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 4, Informative

      If someone wants to shut down one of these projects, all they have to do is claim that they wrote it.

      Proof of identity besides, how exactly would this work? All major open-source licenses (including the GPL) are irrevocable for the code they were distributed with. They can claim they wrote it all they want - they can't force anyone to take it off their sites.

      If someone wanted to shut down the project, they'd have to:

      * Claim it was theirs
      * Claim that they never intended for it to be distributed
      * Explain how it is that this group, which has been distributing it for a long, long time, managed to be the sole source of distributed binaries for months (years?) without the original authors ever caring
      * Explain how this group got ahold of the sourcecode in the first place

      There's enough laugh-test issues in there to make any such attempt essentially impossible.

      Basically, put it this way. If these people, the actual developers, want to de-GPL it in the future . . . they can't. Cat's out of the bag, ain't going back in. If they can't do it, what makes you think an impostor could?

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    12. Re:Anonymity by lysergic.acid · · Score: 1

      i don't think you understand what a catch-22 is.

      it'd only be a catch-22 if, regardless of whether the author uses a pseudonym or not, he gets fucked over.

      but as the myriad of authors who publish books under pen names illustrates, regardless of whether you use a pseudonym or not, you won't get fucked over. that would be the opposite of a catch-22.

    13. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The catch-22 is that, if a DMCA take-down notice is issued, either the project is fucked (because no one stepped up to defend it), or the authors are fucked (because they identified themselves).

      This is posted anonymously because it is, in fact, redundant.

    14. Re:Anonymity by thermian · · Score: 0

      I am sure that after 550.000 lines of code, they have some way of proving that they own the code they were developing for all these years even if that is a log file

      Given that after a little experience its possible to work out which of two students submitting the same code for an assignment was the real author, I'd think telling the authorship of a large project would be easy.

      One of the simplest ways is asking for a 'guided tour' of the code. Also, picking a random, obviously complex block of code and saying 'what does this do' will catch most bluffers.

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    15. Re:Anonymity by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Publishers own the copyright on books written by authors under pseudonyms.

      If someone violates the copyright, the publisher sues them.

      An anonymous copyright holder is ineffective.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    16. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They opensourced code that is not even theirs, I have my sources, trust me there is actually code in there that they got from rockstar before the hot cofee fiasco when they even supported them, i doubt they ever did permission to release that.

      And they also refuse to credit some of ex-developers.

      Basically they could get easily sued into oblivion.
       

    17. Re:Anonymity by donaldm · · Score: 1
      I would have thought that the developers and coders names are in the credits therefore you could say this game is copyright with particular peoples names being cited. It will be interesting to see what type of license they use and if certain people or companies try to plagiarise it.

      Throwing some code, that you value, out into the world without your name on it isn't philanthropy, it's just stupidity.

      I could not agree more, it is IMHO stupid releasing software that anyone can take and make their own although I am quite sure that many would disagree with you and me. Oh well that is their prerogative.

      On a slightly different note. When making a game there are many people involved from concept artists, story developers (well maybe not for some FPS and Sports games), production coordinators, software coders and numerous others such as marketing etc. Most good commercial games are now starting to have budgets similar to Hollywood with quite a few people involved in the overall production of the game. With regard to the software would it be just the coders that put their reall names to their code or everyone involved which could be a legal minefield?

      Another issue is if the game uses propriety libraries such as the gaming engine and if you can see the code you will find out what the PC, PS2 and Xbox library calls use, this alone may make releasing the source for a game like this open to litigation or just difficult to understand.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    18. Re:Anonymity by JernejL · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not even all their code, there is actually code in there that belongs to rockstar which they gave to them before hot cofee thing, i doubt they got permission to opensource that, it looks like a legal suicide for them

    19. Re:Anonymity by Kjella · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Proof of identity besides, how exactly would this work? All major open-source licenses (including the GPL) are irrevocable for the code they were distributed with. They can claim they wrote it all they want - they can't force anyone to take it off their sites.

      If a license wasn't applied by the copyright holder then the license and any sublicenses are null and void. Stolen goods don't become legitimate if you sell them on eBay, nor can you "launder" code using a license.

      If someone wanted to shut down the project, they'd have to:

      * Claim it was theirs

      TRUE.

      * Claim that they never intended for it to be distributed

      FALSE

      * Explain how it is that this group, which has been distributing it for a long, long time, managed to be the sole source of distributed binaries for months (years?) without the original authors ever caring

      FALSE

      * Explain how this group got ahold of the sourcecode in the first place

      FALSE

      To take your most obvious error first, copyrights do not have to be defended. I could sue ten or fifty years from now without any need to explain myself. The other two might be arguments in a court of law, but here's the basic sequence of events.

      1. Your ISP recieves a DMCA takedown, all it requires is a claim to ownership not any proof or reasonable case. They will take it off the site.
      2. You must file a DMCA counter notification for their return.
      3. The DMCA troll must file a lawsuit to continue (or not, since it's takedown abuse).
      4. During the discovery/trial there's no evidence and you win (hopefully).

      But wait, what happens here at step 2? It means you must claim:

      "I declare, under penalty of perjury, that I have a good faith belief that the complaint of copyright violation is based on mistaken information, misidentification of the material in question, or deliberate misreading of the law." plus give your full contact details for a potential lawsuit.

      Would you sign that on behalf of some pseudonymous code that some d00d contributed to your project? Do you know who he is, what code access he's had and whether these allegations are true or not? I sure as hell wouldn't do that, it'd be dangerous as hell because I don't know the facts here. You can try getting the pseudonym to file the counter-notice but he might not be reachable or doesn't want to step forward. Then it's game over, your code is down and it's not coming back up.

      Basically, put it this way. If these people, the actual developers, want to de-GPL it in the future . . . they can't. Cat's out of the bag, ain't going back in. If they can't do it, what makes you think an impostor could?

      You alledge the cat was never legally let out of the bag, and that everyone's handling it or its kittens are dealing in stolen property.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    20. Re:Anonymity by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 1

      The DMCA is kind of a red herring. Presumably, that group themselves is hosting it. If they get hit by a DMCA for their own project, they're probably not going to roll over and play dead - they're probably going to say "uh, this is ours, go away".

      Things might be a little more dubious if their site vanished off the face of the planet and it was down to fans to host it. But as long as the creators of the code actually want it kept up, they're quite, quite able to do so, bogus DMCA claims or not.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    21. Re:Anonymity by Nazlfrag · · Score: 2, Interesting

      which they gave to them

      They knew what the project was, they freely gave to them, I don't see the issue.

    22. Re:Anonymity by dintech · · Score: 3, Informative

      Let me clarify, he means that someone could use a pseudonym to poison the project with copyrighted source. Obviously, as you say, the person doing this isn't concerned about the project. You're forgetting that it's the others using their real names on something they care about who will suffer because of it. OK, so you could identify who submitted the dodgy code and remove all of their contributions but it might not be sufficient by that point.

    23. Re:Anonymity by meson2439 · · Score: 0

      GPL is a valid license. If the originator of the source already obtain a GPL license, then automatically all subsidiary works is GPL too. You cannot claim any of the code is yours. To apply for GPL license, the originator usually applied for a copyright using real name of course. After that, all subsidiary works become GPL automatically. The holders of GPL works are not all anonymous. FYI some of them have real copyright for that work.

      DCMA is moot point for open source projects. Not a lot of projects are in a website that you can pull down anytime, most of them are in sourceforge or in IRC.

      The great thing about working open source projects is that most are anonymous, so you can easily set up a new channel in IRC. You cannot sue anonymous person. You need at least have his real name and address. The few not anonymous person has real copyright for their codes, so you can't sue them too.

    24. Re:Anonymity by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      The fakers write up a DMCA takedown notice, the real authors write a counternotice. If the fakers want to win they have to prove in court that they are the authors.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    25. Re:Anonymity by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      You should email/contact your sources, the longer they wait to bring this up in court (or make a DMCA take-down request), the harder it will be for them to appear sympathetic in front of a jury.

    26. Re:Anonymity by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      How do you know this court case will have a jury?

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    27. Re:Anonymity by plantman-the-womb-st · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is a point certainly, but the question would be was the project they contributed to GPL at the time they contributed, and if not, did they retain the rights to their code, and if so, did they consent to their contributions being licensed in this manner. Muddy, curly and all manner of other words that describe a messy situation, but I'd bet a few lawyers out there wouldn't mind spending a few years arguing over it.

      --
      Say bad words about my book, in cold oatmeal, or I shall sue!
    28. Re:Anonymity by nog_lorp · · Score: 1

      it is IMHO stupid releasing software that anyone can take and make their own although I am quite sure that many would disagree with you and me.

      Did you just call ALL OPEN SOURCE CONTRIBUTORS stupid? On SLASHDOT? What were you thinking? I'm surprised you haven't been modded -2 to yet.

    29. Re:Anonymity by Kjella · · Score: 2, Informative

      GPL is a valid license. If the originator of the source already obtain a GPL license, then automatically all subsidiary works is GPL too. You cannot claim any of the code is yours. To apply for GPL license, the originator usually applied for a copyright using real name of course. After that, all subsidiary works become GPL automatically. The holders of GPL works are not all anonymous. FYI some of them have real copyright for that work.

      Do you work for SCO or the Microsoft FUD department by any chance? GPL code can only be legally combined with other GPL(-compatible) code. If I have the copyright on code A (other, non-GPL license), and you have the copyright on code B (GPL) and some third party combines and creates A+B, then that work isn't GPL. You can't steal my copyright by extending your license to my code. Whoever combined those works broke copyright law and the work A+B has no legal license at all. I can issue a takedown because it violates my license, that you have a real, non-anonymous copyright on your half makes no difference at all.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    30. Re:Anonymity by 3p1ph4ny · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because they'll probably be sued in the US federal court system for an amount over $20. Read the 7th amendment. IANAL, etc.

    31. Re:Anonymity by genner · · Score: 1

      I've seen a bunch of "open source" game projects where the developers use pseudonyms to contribute. A few of these projects don't even have any contact information to get in touch with the developers. This basically makes their licensing pointless. Anyone can slap the GPL or a BSD-alike license on a bit of code, but it doesn't mean anything unless someone is willing to stand up and claim copyright on the code.. and that means a real human with a legal name. Throwing some code, that you value, out into the world without your name on it isn't philanthropy, it's just stupidity. If someone wants to shut down one of these projects, all they have to do is claim that they wrote it. They then can write up a DCMA takedown notice and the actual authors have no way to prove that they are the legitimate copyright owners.

      Or you could just host the site outside of the US or better yet throw a torrent up. Without real legal names attached to your work your unlikely to get shutdown since they can't find you.

    32. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basically they could get easily sued into oblivion.

      Hah, easy. Just grab the portal stone and shut them laywers out.

    33. Re:Anonymity by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      Because they'll probably be sued in the US federal court system for an amount over $20. Read the 7th amendment. IANAL, etc.

      Fair trial applies to instances like murder, not copyright infringement.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    34. Re:Anonymity by 3p1ph4ny · · Score: 1

      If by "fair trial" you meant "certian parts of procedural due process", then yes, you're correct. However, the seventh amendment states:

      In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

      Paraphrased: "in most civil cases of value >=$20, you get a jury trial." The SCOTUS hasn't consistently applied the 7th amendment to the states, but the suit would probably be filed in federal court anyways.

      In Feltner v. Columbia Pictures Television, the SCOTUS upheld the 7th amendment right to a jury trial on statutory damages.

      Although these two cases would have fact patterns which are wholly unrelated, statutory damages would probably be used in the case we're talking about. Statutory damages are usually used in copyright cases since it's difficult to tell exactly how much infringement occurred, and what the cost of that was. Since statutory damages would be used the previous ruling would be controlling, and both parties would have the right to a jury trial if they wanted one.

      Again, IANAL, so feel free to correct me if I screwed up in my analysis ;-)

    35. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'm Spartacus!

    36. Re:Anonymity by skarphace · · Score: 1

      Paraphrased: "in most civil cases of value >=$20, you can get a jury trial."

      There, fixed that for you. The right of trial by jury also allows the defendant to go up against a judge if they would prefer.

      --
      Bullish Machine Tzar
    37. Re:Anonymity by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Anyone who has had long term experience coding won't have much difficulty comparing a piece of code and someone's previous work to prove authorship. Back when I was in VB6 class a student accused me of cheating because I'd be done and heading out for a smoke a good hour before project time was up. The teacher laughed so hard I thought he'd cry. He then said "I have been coding for nearly 30 years. Let me show you something".

      He then projected a piece of my code on the board and said " You see how he likes to number his lines? How he throws in ancient syntax like GOTO just to irritate the hell out of me? That tells me he has been using Basic since the OLD days and likes to go back to the old style whenever possible." He then looked at the code for a minute and said "Did you learn on a Commodore or an Atari?" With my mouth hanging open I said "Commodore VIC 20" to which he replied "Figures. The code is efficient but has all the subtlety of a chainsaw".

      So if these guys have truly whipped off 550K lines of code I doubt it would take somebody with long term coding experience to spot their "handwriting" by comparing their previous work to the code in question. And before everyone rags me: Yes I'm old, yes my code is as elegant as a sledgehammer to the face, and yes I still use GOTO. But it works for me, even if it don't make for pretty code. And since the only coding I do nowadays is small apps for SMBs I don't have to worry about pretty, just stable and fast turnaround to working app.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    38. Re:Anonymity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can do it... you just have to assign copyright to something like the FSF, for example.

    39. Re:Anonymity by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Wait.. is everyone going to now do an "I am Spartacus" thing?

    40. Re:Anonymity by QuantumG · · Score: 0

      You also can't enforce your copyright, so putting your work out under the GPL is pointless.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    41. Re:Anonymity by spliffington · · Score: 1

      LMFAO, not! How 1987 are you, a "goto" joke! How BASIC! Yep, you got me there. What's next, a MUD?

    42. Re:Anonymity by thermian · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a good teacher :)

      --
      A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
    43. Re:Anonymity by meson2439 · · Score: 1
      Yup, the third party work isn't GPL if what he does is take two source and link them together only. I wouldn't even say that he owns any of the work and surely cannot apply any copyright for that. Using is not modifying the codes.

      The definition of all 'subsidiary works' in that context is to modify or fork the original/modified codes. Even if he makes a new program, he is only using the codes from 2 licenses. He has no copyright on any of the two. You only obtain a GPL license for modifying a code that is GPL-copyright or make your own from scratch.

      As a response, I cannot believe that the third-party can even apply for copyright. If he did here is some from provison from the license.

      You may not propagate or modify a covered work except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to propagate or modify it is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License (including any patent licenses granted under the third paragraph of section 11).

    44. Re:Anonymity by dazjorz · · Score: 1

      Too bad you're still just as anonymous as these guys.

  3. Now hiring! by narcberry · · Score: 5, Funny

    Looking for motivated developers to work on an exciting video game project.

    Must be willing to work for free.

    --
    Modding me -1 troll doesn't make me wrong.
    1. Re:Now hiring! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looking for motivated developers to work on an exciting video game project.

      Must be willing to work for free.

      Looking for motivated philanthropists to work on an exciting underprivileged human life improvement project.

      Must be willing to work for free.

    2. Re:Now hiring! by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Funny

      Looking for motivated developers to work on an exciting video game project.

      Must be willing to work for free.

      Looking for motivated philanthropists to work on an exciting underprivileged human life improvement project.

      Must be willing to work for free.

      Oh come on! GTA's attitude is best summed up by the advice "If you kill that hooker, you can get your money back." Comparing it to charity work is a bit silly.

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    3. Re:Now hiring! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that's like a hooker fucking you for FREE.... oh wait...

    4. Re:Now hiring! by donaldm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh come on! GTA's attitude is best summed up by the advice "If you kill that hooker, you can get your money back." Comparing it to charity work is a bit silly.

      Killing as many people as you can in GTA is quite acceptable however we cannot pick up a Hooker and bang her in a car, killing is ok but not the other thing, Think of the children! :-)

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    5. Re:Now hiring! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Strawman alert! Both OP and second poster were referring to open source and games in general.

    6. Re:Now hiring! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seen what happened to Dolphin - the Gamecube emulator - after it got opensourced?

      It now plays GC games nearly perfectly, and even some Wii games, after three months of opensource work - heck, average FPS is five times better.

    7. Re:Now hiring! by nog_lorp · · Score: 1

      "If you kill the homeless person under the bridge, you can take their liquor to make molitov cocktails to throw at cop cars!"

    8. Re:Now hiring! by kv9 · · Score: 1

      Killing as many people as you can in GTA is quite acceptable however we cannot pick up a Hooker and bang her in a car, killing is ok but not the other thing, Think of the children! :-)

      you can pick up hookers in San Andreas and engage in something that makes the car bounce. then they leave and you have less money. sounds like both things are OK, just not depicted in the same way.

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
    9. Re:Now hiring! by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      Think of the children! :-)

      Well, yes, exactly. Think of the children you're saving from existence by killing that hooker!

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    10. Re:Now hiring! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looking for motivated developers to work on an exciting video game project.

      Must be willing to work for free.

      WTH? Now Slashdot is letting EA recruit on their forums?

  4. Re:too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sorry, but you're wrong.
    See how I've provided evidence for all my points?

  5. Re:This is news??? by pushing-robot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So I assume you also avoid any open source software that runs on Windows or OS X?

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  6. Only Cowards are Anonymous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you look at the Google Code site for the project and see some of the committed files in the repo, you'll notice REAL names with REAL email addresses, and thus your point is moot... and I shall forever be a coward.

    1. Re:Only Cowards are Anonymous by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      How do you know they're real names?

  7. Re:This is news??? by DiLLeMaN · · Score: 1

    I think the GP would avoid open source software that ONLY runs on Windows and/or OS X, yes. What's the problem with that?

    --
    /var/run/twitter.sock is a twitter socket puppet.
  8. Oh, you don't need cheats. by StreetStealth · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've heard fantastic, mind-bending things about Multi Theft Auto.

    Apparently, enthusiast game devs grafting on a real-time multiplayer component to a single-player game to which they don't have the source results in some, shall we say, interesting sync issues. My favorite story is where one guy suddenly gets replaced with a taxi on another guy's client. He still sees himself as a character, but the other guy sees him as a taxi just "walking" around.

    "Get in me!" is of course the appropriate response, and upon their union the two have a strange and jittery ride down the street, until they get to the train station. They get on the train, which the taxi guy sees as a bouncy and jittery train ride, but the other guy sees as a taxi intersecting the train, grinding endlessly against the tunnel.

    Finally, something breaks, and they're no longer constrained to the map's clipping, rocketing around the city, perhaps bi- or quad-locating, and it's time to reset the server.

    --
    Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
    1. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by spandex_panda · · Score: 3, Funny

      thats awesome. I want to bi- and quad-locate someone

      --
      like phosphorescent desert buttons singing one familiar song
    2. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by yoyhed · · Score: 2, Insightful

      MTA was an amazing thing back in the days of GTA III and Vice, and even SA, particularly because of how it was programmed. But now GTA IV has eclipsed all the previous games just on its merits as a single-player game, and Rockstar has implemented a better version of MTA officially into IV.. kind of sad that the MTA devs won't have anything to do on this one.

      --
      WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
    3. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      Are you claiming that is a bug? It sounds like a perfectly implemented, lol-producing feature.

      --
      What if Tetris was invented by Nazis?
    4. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by X0563511 · · Score: 3, Funny

      What he doesn't tell you is that the taxi-seeing player had picked up an LSD powerup...

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    5. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      But now GTA IV has eclipsed all the previous games just on its merits as a single-player game

      The player control seems absurdly bad to me. It's as if he's on inline skates and listing from side to side. How is it that they cannot make it more manageable?

    6. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by jmccarthy · · Score: 1

      I think there's a significant portion of gamers who feel San Andreas is the peak of the series so far. GTA4 certainly doesn't have as many fun activities for myself, anyway.

    7. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by mrdoogee · · Score: 1

      I totally agree. While GTA IV is fun for sure, and for the most part very well polished, I just don't get the "go anywhere, do anything" feeling I got from San Andreas. For somebody who likes the mission structure and getting completion, its probably a lot more fun, however I'm just tired of Roman or Dwayne calling me when I'm just out screwing around. I loved the Sandbox of GTA-SA, and it feels like that was toned down a bit in favor of a more... "linear" type of game.

    8. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I'd rather locate a bi.

    9. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by somersault · · Score: 1

      I concur. I was really looking forward to GTA IV but it lacks a lot of the awesome stuff that was in San Andreas. Here's hoping they continue to try out new ideas with the next version. Actually, the ads I've seen for Saints Row make it look more like the proper spiritual successor to GTA III, but I haven't played it yet so I can't comment on how good it is. I think GTA IV is trying too hard to be realistic and dark, and it has lost a lot of the fun cartoony atmosphere that GTA has always had. 90% of the new Liberty City is dull and samey, with none of the character of San Andreas.

      I also think that the multiplayer system in GTA IV is pretty crap. You can't choose what server to join (which could be seen as a benefit as you are pretty much guaranteed not to have any empty servers for long), and then when you do join and before the game has even started, the server creator can change the game type to something else. If you joined a server that was in race mode, they might suddenly change it to a cops and robbers type before the game even starts etc.

      To top it off, after playing LittleBigPlanet, Fallout, WipEout HD, Burnout etc in nice crisp 1080p it's pretty annoying to come back to GTA and have a comparatively poor framerate and fuzzy graphics because of the 720p resolution :/ I'd prefer GTA III level graphics in full HD and at a nice framerate than the fancier GTA IV engine at only 720p.

      Oh and I completely agree with Mrdoogee about getting calls. Even when you put the phone on silent you still see the characters giving you the thumbs down, which is annoying. I hardly ever even use the special girlfriend perks but I'm the sort of person who likes to keep everything topped up just in case.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    10. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is exactly what happened in my experience playing this game, right down to the "Get in me!" exclamation. Except our trains were out of sync, and all I saw was a taxi flying down the rail perpendicular to the track, being smashed to bits, exploding, and arriving at the station in a heap. And when I tried to get in, two taxis appeared on his screen, which bounce and clipped into the air in a whirlwind dance before dumping us both out of the world entirely. Somebody make a whole game outta THAT.

    11. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Actually I think the controls went down the crapper in GTA:SA, at least it did for me. GTA 3 and VC both felt like a PC game. The controls were smooth, easy to manage, and really allowed you to forget about them and get into the game. Whereas GTA:SA felt like just another PS2 game that was ported to the PC. The controls are IMHO a major PITA and I spent more time messing with them than I did playing the game.

      My oldest who is a hardcore GTA player played it for a week after I gave him the box, only to stuff it in a closet and talk his mom into the PS2 version. The next time I saw him he said "The controls just seem to work here and they didn't work on the PC." which he was right. It was just another bad port on the PC. So can anyone tell me if GTA 4 is an ACTUAL PC game, or just another bad port? Because if it is a port I'll just wait until it hits the bargain bin if I even get it at all. There are enough mods for GTA 3 and VC that I can still get my GTA fun without fighting bad controls. And is it true you can't mod GTA 4?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    12. Re:Oh, you don't need cheats. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      that gave a whole new meaning to the name Spandex Panda

  9. Summary Lacking by ovanklot · · Score: 5, Informative
    FTA:

    "Multi Theft Auto (MTA) is an open-source software project that adds a full multi-player network play functionality to several of Rockstar North's Grand Theft Auto game titles, in which this network play element is not originally found."

    Ah, now I get it.

    --
    "Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
    1. Re:Summary Lacking by Enderandrew · · Score: 2, Informative

      When I first saw the headline on my iGoogle page I read it that San Andreas itself went OSS. I was very disappointed when I reread the headline and summary.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
  10. svn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's the command to check out the source:

    svn checkout http://multitheftauto.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ multitheftauto-read-only

  11. Time for some open source by sleeponthemic · · Score: 4, Funny

    and hot coffee.

    --
    I record my sleeptalking
  12. Re:This is news??? by SleepingWaterBear · · Score: 1

    So I assume you also avoid any open source software that runs on Windows or OS X?

    'Requires' is not the same as 'runs on'. GIMP, Pidgin, Blender and many other excellent programs run on Windows, but don't require it.

    I would certainly think twice about any open source project that requires Windows or OS X, at least if a linux based or cross platform alternative were around.

  13. Good. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Now how far will the code history go, with respect to the closed source editions?

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  14. Re:This is news??? by Jamie's+Nightmare · · Score: 3, Funny

    No, the GP is a troll who hates the idea of closed source software. In order to make use of this project, the GP would have to defile himself by coming into contact with such software. According to the Church of Stallman, that is a sin.

    --
    "When you see a unixer brainwashed beyond saving, kick him out of the door." - Xah Lee
  15. Now it's open source... by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Only a client running a Multi Theft Auto version that is released through this website or through our nightly build service generates a serial number. In other words, developer builds that are built manually by anyone will not be able to join servers that have serial verification turned on. For obvious reasons of course, as we would like to minimize the problem of people cheating through source code modifications.

    ...Let the serial-less servers and serial verification bypasses go forth and multiply in number.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  16. ...but they do help. by sethstorm · · Score: 1


    Only a client running a Multi Theft Auto version that is released through this website or through our nightly build service generates a serial number. In other words, developer builds that are built manually by anyone will not be able to join servers that have serial verification turned on. For obvious reasons of course, as we would like to minimize the problem of people cheating through source code modifications.

    It will only be a matter of time before they do.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:...but they do help. by coresnake · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually the MTA servers are all full of cheaters who use weapons hacks in nonweapon areas etc. anyway so I wouldnt worry about that.

  17. Missing the serial number generation, incomplete by sethstorm · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's missing the serial number generator, and is thus incomplete.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  18. It's missing the serial number generator by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    The problem is that they don't include the serial number generator.

    It's not as if the resulting package that was built could be compared to the official build to find it, and its source code.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  19. It's still missing some code- net/security modules by cwcpetech · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All our source code available through this project page is licensed under the GPLv3 license. This excludes any dependencies and our net modules for both the client and server: these are still covered under our proprietary license. These modules have been excluded because of reasons involving security and cheating, but contain only a minimal amount of code.

    No reason not to include them in source form.

  20. Re:Anonymity MOD UP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well said Sir. Something obviously not all people grok.

  21. Re:Missing the serial number generation, incomplet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    The serial number generation isn't missing and is actually stored in a dll that hasn't been made open source

  22. Will it run on Linux? by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if i can get it working on linux. BB later =)

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
  23. More than 16 worldwode developers... by VendettaMF · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "More than 16 worldwide developers"

    That'd be 17 worldwide developers then?

    --
    kartune85 : Incapable of reason, observation or learning. A kind of dim, drab, flightless parrot.
    1. Re:More than 16 worldwode developers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That'd be at least 17 worldwide developers then?

      There, ftfy. Unless there was a devel involved....

    2. Re:More than 16 worldwode developers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      insightful, indeed

    3. Re:More than 16 worldwode developers... by Kijori · · Score: 1

      The important thing to note isn't the number, it's that they said "16 worldwide developers" not "16 developers worldwide".

      There may only be 17 of them, but each of them is as wide as the world.

      And I think we all know of the connection between code quality and waist size.

    4. Re:More than 16 worldwode developers... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      Our hearts go out to the 17 victims of the recent internet scam.

    5. Re:More than 16 worldwode developers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, that hacker from Jurassic Park was really fat and he laid down some serious code, they had to reset the whole system, remember that?

  24. net: network handling (NOT OPEN) by tod_miller · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > net: network handling (this module is covered by a different license and is only available as a binary release)

    First rule of business, fork, and add a new network layer, then use google's bug database.

    --
    #hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
  25. No crossplatform client == no go by FunkyRider · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    One of the very important features of Open Sourcing your project is you can develop it for multiple platforms. If it runs only on Windows, all I can say is, I'm not going to touch it. sorry

    --
    just wonder why there are so many anonymous cowards in this world....
    1. Re:No crossplatform client == no go by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you propose they make a multiplatform mod for a Windows-only game?

    2. Re:No crossplatform client == no go by Ash-Fox · · Score: 2

      Reverse engineering. I did it with "Frontier: Elite II".

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
    3. Re:No crossplatform client == no go by Constantine+XVI · · Score: 1

      And thanks to the copy protecion, they'd be slapped with a DMCA takedown. Even still (if you want to go full idealist), the resources aren't freely usable, so you'd have to replace them. At that point, you're better off just cloning GTA instead of trying to reverse engineer it, and you probably don't want to use these hacks as part of it

      --
      "I think an etch-a-sketch with an ethernet port would beat IE7 in web standards compliance."
    4. Re:No crossplatform client == no go by Binestar · · Score: 1

      One of the very important features of Open Sourcing your project is you can develop it for multiple platforms. If it runs only on Windows, all I can say is, I'm not going to touch it. sorry

      Port it then. I'd love to see you startup MTA in linux. Will be a very hard thing to do, since Grand Theft Auto is a windows only game, but I'm sure with enough work on Wine and rewriting MTA you'll be able to handle it.

      --
      Do you Gentoo!?
    5. Re:No crossplatform client == no go by Ash-Fox · · Score: 1

      And thanks to the copy protecion, they'd be slapped with a DMCA takedown.

      Only in the USA. I'm not in the USA.

      At that point, you're better off just cloning GTA instead of trying to reverse engineer it, and you probably don't want to use these hacks as part of itIt only took me a few days to replace some I/O components, display and audio interfaces to make Frontier cross platform.

      Reimplementing everything from scratch? Jesus, I don't know how many years I'd be doing that.

      --
      Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
  26. Re:This is news??? by nog_lorp · · Score: 1

    That is just plain silly. This is an enthusiast project, the analogy you are making is bad. Or rather, think of it like this: would you "think twice" about using an OSS Windows GUI enhancement program because it "required Windows"? The question is irrelevant since you wouldn't be using Windows in the first place.

    Software projects are created to serve a need, cater to an audience. MultiTheft Auto caters to GTA players, not OSS fans, to criticize them for requiring closed source software is to criticize them for existing at all.

  27. Re:It's still missing some code- net/security modu by Kijori · · Score: 1

    All our source code available through this project page is licensed under the GPLv3 license. This excludes any dependencies and our net modules for both the client and server: these are still covered under our proprietary license. These modules have been excluded because of reasons involving security and cheating, but contain only a minimal amount of code.

    No reason not to include them in source form.

    These modules are the ones containing the authentication code designed to verify that it's a genuine build distributed by MTA. If you open source them, you make it easier for people to compile their own build where they have superpowers and play on the public servers with it. That's what they want to avoid.

  28. Re:too bad by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    As an anonymous coward you don't have karma to lose and thus you get into troll fights all the time.

    I discard your evidence-based claims as an argument from authority.

  29. Tell me more, more, more by jonaskoelker · · Score: 3, Funny

    you can pick up hookers in San Andreas and engage in something that makes the car bounce.

    I can't wait to hear. The suspension's killing me.

    1. Re:Tell me more, more, more by kv9 · · Score: 1

      *groan*

      --
      Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
  30. Uhhh... hello? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    Yeah, keeping the code proprietary works great.

    Just ask Blizzard, they haven't banned *one* *single* *player* from Battle.net for cheating...

    </unimpressed>

  31. Re:Missing the serial number generation, incomplet by corky842 · · Score: 1

    The GTA series doesn't use serial numbers.

  32. Did they fix the hit detection? by British · · Score: 1

    I used to play GTA:Race(which was a separate project from MTA) which was basically these wacky races in the SA world, where vehicles change at checkpoints, etc. When I wasn't doing that, I was playing MTA. Sadly, 99% of the MTA servers out there were "free roam" servers, with no game structure whatsoever. The remaining 1% were these "RPG" servers, where you play around in this RPG environment. Sadly, an RPG-izing of San Andreas takes all the fun out of the game. No cars until you get your license, etc. You might as well have your character fill out tax return forms.

    I used to be on "party server" which had 200 people in one of 20 gangs. Sadly, it was more free-roam than actual structured gameplay. Theere were too many gangs spread out too far apart for any gang battles to take place. But the biggest killer was the horrifically bad hit detection. You can hit someone point blank and their health won't go down. They shoot you, you get hit every time. That, and the MTA web site maintainers can't seem to put together a page to save their lives.

    Naturally, GTA4's multiplayer blew MTA away.

    1. Re:Did they fix the hit detection? by Repossessed · · Score: 1

      Why would you need a license to drive a car you *stole*?

      --
      Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite (TM)
  33. Urban Terror by chord.wav · · Score: 1

    MTA is just a OS extension to play your actual closed-source version GTA in Multiplayer.

    If you want to cover open-source games cover this one:
    Urban Terror

    UT is an open-source Counter Strike "clone" that runs on OS X, Linux and Windows. It's awesome. These guys did a great job.

    In their own words: "Urban Terror(TM) is a free multiplayer first person shooter, that (thanks to ioquake3) does not require Quake III Arena. It is available for Windows, Linux and Macintosh.

    Urban Terror can be described as a Hollywood tactical shooter; somewhat realism based, but the motto is "fun over realism". This results in a very unique, enjoyable and addictive game."

    If you know more games like this one, please reply to this post. I'd like to know which other free, multi-OS games are out there.

    1. Re:Urban Terror by Reapman · · Score: 1

      I don't have any other games to add, but I just wanted to say thanks for the info on this, I'm always on the look out for good quality Linux games, Tux Racer only goes so far ya? I'll download Urban Terror tonight! :)

  34. Re:This is news??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Answer is simple dear boy there should be NO Closed Source Software at all item end finito

  35. Then have it server-side where it belongs. by cwcpetech · · Score: 1

    One more reason to go to a model that only puts the authentication modules in a "black box" and made server-side as much as possible. If their netcode is that bad that they have to put it in a DLL black box, then you've got an oracle in the making.

    1. Re:Then have it server-side where it belongs. by Kijori · · Score: 1

      What exactly are you proposing to put on the server side? If it's the authentication module, you're going to struggle to validate someone's install if your code is on a different computer. If it's the network code, well, if the network code is at the other end of the network I think there might be some slight problems...

      Putting the authentication and netcode modules in a "black box" gives them a "secure" conduit from authentication to server. Opening up links in that chain seems like it would be a mistake.

    2. Re:Then have it server-side where it belongs. by cwcpetech · · Score: 1

      Then by all means leave the authentication code be a platform independent black box; let the network code go open. That way open servers don't need to be hobbled by having platform-dependent net code. Besides, it's not as if one couldn't intercept the calls they may be making to generate it and feed them easily manipulated data.

  36. Re:too bad by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

    I discard your evidence-based claims as an argument from authority.

    Fine. Look at the sales numbers and admit you were wrong.

    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  37. Still incomplete. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When one can build all of the modules, net and "security", then it is complete.

  38. Agreed, mod parent up. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    If it runs only on Windows, all I can say is, I'm not going to touch it.

    While the client might require it, the server is less bound to such platform issues. Besides, bring out the network code already.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  39. Re:too bad by Yeorwned · · Score: 0

    Maybe you should find other hobbies rather than praying for moderator points to increase your "karma" on slashdot...

  40. Hope it was worth it but very doubtful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    News flash, everyone's been playing GTA IV for months. The number of interested players for this mod of an obsolete version is only going to go down, not up. Translation - you will need a personal friend who is also willing to ignore the better, newer GTA. Oh, and enjoy playing against a 99% cheater field. That tends to happen when the servers aren't secure, which they never are with these unofficial mods. The rest of us have much better things to do, like... pretty much any activity you could name.