Slashdot Mirror
IT Job Without a Degree?
adh0c writes "I have been lurking Slashdot for some time now without registering and I don't think this question has been answered yet. Is it possible to get a good IT job (assuming that there is such a thing), preferably a sysadmin position, without having a BS or other degree? From browsing the job postings on Monster and such, it would seem that everyone wants university papers. Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
Since, there are lots of people who have the degree, I think that you will be in bad shape to compete against them.
Without a degree, the only way to really get a sysadmin job would be a few years of experience, certifications, and some good recommendations/connections.
Do you really want to be a computer janitor? It's a good part-time or summer job but should only be a whistle stop on your way to CS degree or other useful education.
One of the things that has always appealed to me about computers is that people who deal with them are as often hired on ability as credentials. I don't know any IT guys who are respected for anything other than ability and how easy they are to work with. I hope that this isn't going to change. But I don't think it will, because some of us find these devices inherently fascinating, and spend endless amounts of time learning about them just because we enjoy it. It is very hard for someone just wanting to complete a degree and get a job to compete with that. I would say, based on my experience, that if you are good you will rise to your level regardless of credentials.
Augustus
There's no way you can start as a sysadmin without having the degree, but there are other ways. I'd suggest starting at a lower level with a company that will pay for your certs, get your MSCE, CCNE, etc and work your way up.
but it's certainly going to be harder getting a foot in the door.
I've seen autodidact sysadmins do quite a lot better than ones with degrees, however the reverse is also true.
In general my experience is companies will prefer one with a degree over autodidact people, reason being someone with a degree has shown ability to sit down and learn - this is very important since pretty much no matter what job you end up getting there is going to be some learning to get familiar with the running systems.
I'm the senior network administrator for an S&P 500 company and I have some college but no degree. I do have a ton of industry certifications, but I only got those for employers who asked for AND payed for them. Of course before I got my first "real" IT job I had already owned my own PC company for 5 years and volunteered for a number of different schools and charitable organizations so it wasn't like I went in with zero experience to show on the resume. I also started near the bottom as a deskside support guy. I think the only way to get in today without any formal education would definitely be to work a helpdesk position. Personally I would look for a midsized company because if you show good initiative, hard work, and some smarts it's a lot more likely you will move up from within. That's what happened to my junior admin, he had been stuck at the helpdesk level at a number of very large companies but within 2 years of starting with my company he was advanced because he showed all the traits needed to be a good sysadmin.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I never finished my degree, yet I have been able to pursue a computing career without it being a roadblock.
My present role is as an engineer at Google.
Sparks:Gadget:Beer Maker
That's not completely true. You can also do well going to a trade school instead of college.
We've had good results with simply giving out actual trial programming tasks and comparing the results of several programmers.
Degrees don't seem to be a strong predictor of usefulness.
Incidentally, we're hiring right now.
https://spideroak.com/blog/200810280100
... but I would advise against it.
I am living proof that it is possible, but that was right in the internet bubble, when I got media attention for designing a website and was hired as a web designer. I learned programming Perl and PHP on the job, together with basic sysadmin and this experience let me apply for a job as servicedesk employee, get more experience doing sysadmin stuff, getting my MCSE and ending up being a consultant, coÃrdinating 5 people in releasing software packages over 4000 machines working in a bank and insurance environment. And this within 10 years.
I suspect however that if you don't have any experience, you'll have a tough time getting a sysadmin position. Try to find a position as service desk calltaker, study hard on various certification exams and then go for junior sysadmin positions.
But remember employers will favour degree+experience over just experience... And in a tough economy with an overflow of available IT people with degrees, you score low.
...started as an operator and is now a Sr. VP at a very prominent software company. Start small and you can go a long way!
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
You may find a job without a degree, but expect to be offered half or less of what a person with a degree would get. My son-in-law "to be" worked as IT mgr for non-profit for several years while going to college and getting degree, and was almost instantly able to land a job making three times as much with full benefits as soon as he graduated and started applying w/degree in hand, (got job in Solar panel manufacturing/installation industry, an industry that seems to be holding it's own in the recession).
Short answer is "yes, you need a degree"
The fortune 500 typically have HR departments that roboticly follow a check-list and a college degree is almost always on that checklist. You won't even get to the point where an actual technical manager will see your resume without one.
But, smaller shops without an HR department to institutionalize stupidity may let you in to interview and if you are a hot-shot than no one gives a damn about a degree.
If you are a hot-shot, you can also work contract. Contractors often bypass the HR department completely, even at fortune500 companies. No one hires a contractor for their college degree. They do hire contractors for their experience and knowledge.
So, if don't have experience your only hope is a college degree. But if you do have experience and are good at it, then the world is your oyster.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I've known many people who were great sys admins or developers who did not have degrees so it is possible. However, it is much easier to get a job if you have the degree. Every time you do a job interview you will spend 5-10 minutes explaining why you don't have a degree - that is, if they even bother to call you in. That's 5-10 minutes that you're spending getting yourself up to the level of the other applicants that you could have spent putting yourself above the level of the other applicants.
Your pay level may suffer throughout your career as well. When I was in college, I had a job as a developer at a computer company. I switched from a full-time student, part-time developer to being a part-time student, full-time developer. They even asked me once to drop out to devote more time to the job. One day they hired a new developer, fresh out of college. She was quite sharp but had 0 experience. One day it came out over lunch how much she was making and it was more than me. I asked my boss why and he replied "She has her degree". Needless to say, I didn't entertain any more requests to drop out and work more.
In my 3rd year of pursuing my Bachelors Degree in Telecommunications, I dropped out of College in 1996 for the allure of the Computer Industry. I started as an entry level IS Support Technician (Help Desk) and moved up several layers through the "Help Desk" chain. I realized after 2 years that getting out of Help Desk was going to be difficult. That's when I jumped ship for a startup company that offered me a Systems Administration job. I've been a Sys Admin since 1998 and feel the need at this time to go back and finish my Degree if I ever want to go into management of any kind.
To answer your questions:
"Can I get a Systems Admin position without a Degree?"
Yes you can, but you have to really work towards it by gaining a good amount of experience (3-5yrs technician work) and perhaps take some risks as many of us have in order to secure the rights to wear the Sys Admin hat.
"Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
I recommend at least an AA Degree and a couple of paper certifications to get you started. Anything less is reducing your odds significantly.
Disregard all these flame-boys with their computer janitor comments and remember this:
Do what you love to do.
If you have any doubts about what it is you want, I recommend taking on a "Geek Squad" job or looking elsewhere. You only get one really good "free" chance to start a career, try to make sure it's one you'll enjoy looking forward to for 30+ years.
There are typically two reasons someone will employ you without a degree.
1). They want to get the best skills without paying for them.
2). You have sufficient experience that no-one reads your resume far enough to notice you've never been to college and wouldn't care either way, or you present extremely well at interviews.
I'd say work on (2) because companies that focus on (1) tend to be bad employers, although not always. Sometimes it's just employers who realise the value of the skills you have, not the paper you paid for that claims it.
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
I manage an area that fortunately has lots of people interested in working for us, doing sys admin work amongst other things. I wouldn't hire you. The problem is, all things being equal, the guy with a college education is going to win. Unfortunately, all things generally are equal. There's no shortage of people with good attitudes, good experience, and are bright. So, often the education becomes a focus. It proves you know how to learn, can follow directions, and have some discipline to pursue a long-term goal.
Now, having said that, if one of my friends told me I had to hire you, I'd generally trust them and do it. So, it's possible to work your way up, but it's hard.
I recommend working for the phone company. It's more interesting than computers anyway.
----- obSig
A degree is one way of getting your first job. A basic BSc. won't really mean anything after the first 2 years in the industry, although some employers will pay more attention to a Masters, or a Doctorate especially.
If you can't show previous jobs, write your own software and publish it somewhere. Or contribute to open source projects. There are some people who can read code who also have the power to hire.
Get some industry certifications. Microsoft certification, (*ducks*) Java certification etc. are all worth something to some people. That's something you can get yourself for a lot less time and money than a degree although they're generally not worth as much.
All that aside, the current job market is not your friend right now - or anyone elses for that matter. :(
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
It all depends on a lot of things, of course! Do you have any experience? What is your work background? If all of your experience is customer service at Best Buy, then you're probably not going to have much luck, going in cold.
You've got several options, none of which are easy.
You've got plenty of options... good luck!
--brian
Take on some volunteer work at a local charity of some sort as the IT guy, work your way up the volunteer chain until they start paying you for it.
I do have a colleague whose first job was right out of highschool at a local AIDS charity, ended up in the regional office for a while, now he works at some hosting firm for pretty decent money
I've dropped out of college six or so times (depends on how you count) and still don't have a degree. Nevertheless I'm holding a very technical and highly challenging and enjoyable programming position and absolutely no one I work with cares in the least about my interrupted education. What they do care about is my technical ability and I wouldn't have been hired if I hadn't been able to impress the engineers I interviewed with.
That said, the company I work for isn't too large, and I was referred by a friend, so I was able to clear the first hurdle of just getting noticed. It's unfortunate, but with larger companies especially, a decidedly non-technical person (or an equivalent SQL query) will be reviewing your resume and will only be looking for certain magic keywords. My advice is to make sure you're solid technically (which you should be anyways), then either try at smaller companies where you're more likely to be noticed, or impress someone and have them bring your resume in. There are, I'm sure, other ways to go about this, but that's my experience. Good luck.
"I am Dr. Freud, but you may call me.siggy."
Of course you can. I left High school 2 years early, got a diploma (dunno what that equates to in the US?) and now Im contracting in an unrelated discipline (Diploma in Network Engineering, working Web Design/Development). And before someone mentions $$ - both by previous and current contracts are six figures. I was somewhat lucky, but I am also living proof you don't always need a piece of paper.
What is...?
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm. Don't let anyone lie to you and say you need a degree, for what you lack with paper you'll just need to make up for with effort.
Qualifications aren't just for show, they mean that you've extended your knowledge in the area and that someone has verified it.
There's a lot more to computing than writing a few programs that do something useful without crashing. That's important too, but it barely figures on the wider scale of merit of a computing professional.
What a CompSci education gives you is tons and tons of theory and context: theory so that you have a large portfolio of logically sound techniques upon which to draw instead of reinventing them and doing so badly, and context so that you understand why you're doing something, why you should not do something else, and how your solutions fit in with all the other methods and systems in the subject area.
Without an education in this field, you won't even know when you're making a mistake, owing to lack of theory and context. Your boss may like you because you'll always be saying "Yes" (until everything falls apart), but nobody else will appreciate it, not even you yourself in time. And you'll feel dumb every time that you come into contact with other computer people, as well as getting a bad rep because you can't hide ignorance in tech.
Just don't.
Take the time and make the effort to get yourself a proper CompSci education. You won't regret it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Getting a job in IT without a degree is extremely challenging.
Without a degree you may be able to get a Hell Desk job at most. From there depending on the company and your performance, you might be able to climb the ladder.
To get yourself promoted, take on projects outside of your normal duties, making sure you can succeed at them. Nobody gets promoted simply by keeping clientele at bay on a daily basis.
In order to receive pay raises, you may need to switch companies. Companies rarely notice (salary wise) how much experience an employee has gained over the years.
In the end though, you may be out of luck. The company I work for did not give me a decent paycheck until three months before I got my BS. I had a two year degree already, which is probably what allowed me to get my foot in the door.
Consider getting at least a two year degree from a reputable community college. Avoid private technical colleges like the plague, nobody takes them seriously. Load up on credits that you can transfer to a four year public university, and get a BS degree in something.
A degree might take five years, but that five years will last a lifetime. However, five years of job experience may only last a decade.
Unless you don't have the paper DUE to a lack of effort! Not that I would know...
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
Depends on the country and how snobby the company is. There are plenty of smart companies hiring autodidact people, but they just have to prove their credentials through other means, and will be tested harder at interviews.
Personally I work as CDO without any degree, but that is because I've studied at the highest IT education in Denmark where it is common for students to quit before finishing the degree because they are offered 6 figured salaries (in dollars).
On the other hand, I turned down a job offer from Google, because their mentality there is such that you can't have a career there without a Ph.D.
So if you want to get hired as an autodidact, either work you way from the bottom, or get involved in open source and write some really awesome code that proves your proficiency.
As with most places it is who you know, not what you know. Applying for a job online you need to compete with MANY x10 applicants who do have letters after their names.
If you are applying for a local job where you know people or cn network with people who do know, then you have a chance.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
I was making 6 figures and then left to start my own company, and I still make 6 figures.
Someone once told me this, and it is true. It takes 2 things to be a success. One is intelligence, and the other is drive. Someone with a lot of intelligence and no drive will find it very hard to succeed. Someone with a lot of intelligence and a lot of drive will find it fairly easy to succeed. Someone with a lot of drive and little intelligence WILL SUCCEED.
All things being equal, execution is what it takes to win.
You can have a proper understanding of computers with out going to a University. It just takes more dedication and willingness then the average person has.
I've had conversations with people that have a "proper CompSci education" and they couldn't hold an intelligent conversation about programming with a monkey.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
No degree, HS dropout w/ GED. No certs (I'm about to get my Security+ due to job requirements), in 100k /yr sysadmin position. Oh, and I managed to get a Secret Clearance out of the deal too...
Granted, I may have worked harder to get here, but it is possible. Even so, in the environment I'm in, I'd almost rather be in a trade then a Sysadmin type position.
It's fairly easy to get out of, if you get out quickly. Both places I've been, you're pretty much either out of the front line phones within a year, or you're stuck there practically forever.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
A college degree is supposed to show that you can learn and that you have a depth of knowledge in the subject. A number of my classes expected us to pick up a new language in a couple weeks on our own and be able to use it by the first assignment. Another class went over four or so new languages that students were expected to pick up and use in a couple weeks mostly on their own (class time was too valuable to waste on such trivialities as programing language descriptions). Granted the two most important things about a degree are probably the paper and the connections.
I dropped out of High School as a sophomore. I immediately started working in the industry. I started out doing tech support, and eventually moved into network administration. In IT, what people care about is your ability. Companies know that the best IT workers are those that would do it as a hobby even if they couldn't do it professionally.
Get temp jobs doing computer type jobs for small companies. Show that you shine and youll be the "Whizz Kid". Even if its data entry or something. Your first few jobs might be a bit boring but the cunning plan is how you write your CV/Resume. That data entry job suddenly becomes
"Worked in the IT Department assisting with data collection systems and acted as first point of call for members of staff requiring support".
That'll act as a stepping stone for your next career move and before you know it you will be away!
N.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
I started with a local ISP in sales and moved through helpdesk and am now managing the department and working as on-call sysadmin and engineer in training, the only thing stopping me from making the jump to full sysadmin/engineer is a lack of desire for that type of work, I prefer to work with the desk monkeys. I dropped out of community college and worked in construction, only ended up where I am due to an injury that took me out of the construction field. best thing that ever happened to me.
Depends on where you are, and what you want. In the UK - yes. I took on two junior sys admins straight out of school earlier this year. You'll need to either start with a junior position or have experience though. A degree really doesn't prove anything in IT, I value experience and knowledge far more.
I'm in the same boat as the article poster, in a similar manner.
/.
I couldn't really afford an ivy league 4 year college, and I had to leave community college before my first year was done due to an illness in the family. A few years later I went to a local trade school, that was accredited, in the tech and IT field. I learned a good deal, even though I knew a certain amount already of what they were teaching.
They offered a Associates Degree program you could do, after you graduated, online. This was not covered in your initial tuition cost or factored into any student loans you got, so if you wanted the degree program it would come straight out of your pocket. Long story short, I couldn't afford this program, still can't.
As for certifications, I trained in what they called the C.E.T program (computer electronics technology). Not really IT (that was a different class path) but focused on hardware repair, PC repair, etc basically all the shit you need to be the local tech support in an office or "The Geek Squad". So I could get by with just the A+ and if I really wanted to look good on paper, the Net+. On the plus side, I aced the course that taught you about the A+ cert, so I got a voucher for one-free attempt at taking the test (it's like what, $150-200 normally?) Needless to say I still have the voucher. Why? Well the A+ textbook they gave us to study is a huge book, and as the professor explained not all the stuff we covered in class and other classes would be on the A+. For example we stuck with Windows 2000 mainly as the OS of learning. We never covered XP, Server, etc which were the big thing at the time (2003-2004). So I never took the test. If I failed, I'm out the one and only free voucher. If I fail and attempt it later, that's money out of my pocket. Money I don't have, at all.
So after I graduate I got six months to find a job before I gotta start paying student loans back. The school had a job placement option which was practically guaranteed. They never found me a job. I looked myself. Locally all places want a degree, or 3-5 years experience even on Entry Level jobs.
4 years later I'm still unemployed, and my student loans that were $3,500 I owed in summer of 2003, are now over $15,000 due to interest rate and non payment.
Yea if it were bad enough a normal person would break down and take a shit job at Walmart or your local McDonalds. Sadly I am not able to stand on my feet for more than an hour or so without getting extreme pain in my lower back, ankles and feet. Not just pain that makes you think "damn this is sore, but I gotta tough it out for 8 hours then go home". It's pain that is like "holy fuck, if I don't sit down in a minute I feel like my bones in my feet are going to shatter". (Let's not get into seeing a doctor, that's something for a whole other discussion).
So while I could easily work say, an office IT/tech job where I'm not on my feet for 8 hours minus a lunch break, I can't fill store shelves at Walmart, even part time, without the absolute need to sit down and rest every hour or so.
Luckily I have family to fall back on, other wise I'd be homeless, starving and not posting on
I knew going in, degrees matter. Sure they don't really mean squat in the "real world" but when it comes to a job, the more good stuff you have about you on paper, matters. Sadly, I just could not afford to get a degree. Couldn't pay for it out of my pocket and couldn't get any more student loans at the time (long before my dues went from 3k to 15k).
Get a degree if you can. It's a hassle, it's just a piece of paper, but that piece of paper can make the difference between you saying "So, your cd rom drive is acting up?" and "Would you like fries with that?"
Aw Frell this
I've been lurking on Slashdot for years too, and I registered an account to answer your question (without being an anonymous coward). The answer is absolutely yes. Here's the rub - you have to be bright/intelligent/good at what you do. Take a lower, entry level job, do a great job (volunteer for projects, find ways to improve process/documentation etc - without stepping on toes), and you'll rise. Talent gets noticed. I've been hugely successful, without a high school diploma, let alone a degree. I keep a very open mind when hiring (for my team) and I've been impressed by people without a lot of formal education, and very unimpressed with people who have degrees and certs falling out their... Of course the opposite holds true as well, my point is that intelligence and enthusiasm will win every time.
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm.
Unless my math is off, you started during the dotcom years when they were looking for talent under every rock they could find, and it was generally accepted that web developers could be very young as the web wasn't many years old. There's always ways for the entrepreneuring individual, but I think you'll agree the market looks very different today.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Job != career. Google has entry-level jobs in the server rooms, and apart from that Google has careers for those with the experience, education and drive to take the company to new places.
Who's gonna hire you if you're the kind of person who did phone support?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I have several friends, peers and colleagues that work in the sysadmin/networking field that do not have degrees (a couple do not even have high school diplomas), and they all do quite well for themselves as far as salaries go.
Like many other people, I view IT as more of a trade. I would much rather hire the person who started working right out of high school with 4 years of experience under his belt than the newly minted BSc with none. Of course, it would all come down to the technical interview, but the trend that I have noticed is that those without the degrees tend to be more "self starters" and capable of learning and researching on their own.
Now don't get me wrong, a degree doesn't hurt. It will definitely open up many doors for you, but if you are seriously looking to get into IT, experience trumps all. Hard work, determination, initiative... these are all the keys to a successful career in IT, imo.
As for myself, I've never had any formal CS or IT training, nor do I have a college degree. Everything I knew, I learned from a book that I bought so I could build a computer to play Doom with on a LAN. After getting out of the Marines in 2001, I took my meager Doom knowledge and landed myself an entry level help desk position making $12/hour. Now, I'm a Network Architect making over 6 figures a year and I work from home 95% of the time. I still don't have a degree, but now I'm back in school, and I have the time and money to get a degree in a subject that I'm actually interested in and not having to worry about making money with it to put food on the table.
But you damn well better have your certifications in line, and some experience under your belt. I really dont get where this idea of EVERY job needs a degree to function came from. I would easily say that a good 60% of jobs out there SHOULD be done by people without higher ed experience. Leave higher end for who it matters for, science/math geeks, buisness jerks, and fine arts. IT is a trade job for all purposes, I know a lot of IT people who really had that designation but its true, as a person WITH a degree in technology and currently in IT, I see no reason to surgar coat the simple fact that we are 21 century plumbers and electricians.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
Depends on the company you do phone support with. If its scripted, then yeah, you will learn very, very little. I currently work in an unscripted phone support dept, looking after clients that contract us to care for their servers and desktop kit. For some clients we essentially provide a full sys-admin service, all given by myself and the other guys on the phones. This said, it is a PITA to get out of, I've been doing it for three and a bit years now and am having a hard time finding something to move onto from here.
I worked in the IT field for 8 years before moving. When looking for a job after moving, I was willing to take a wide variety. I applied for a front-line tech support position, and was denied to be considered because I didn't have a degree in CS. I had done support my first year out of college (I got a non-technical degree). I since moved on to other things, had my MCSE and CCNA and such at the time. And with 8 years experience and an MCSE, the HR department refused to forward on the application to the hiring department because it didn't meet the minimum requirements. That's why it's required. So many places will not even consider you without it, and there's nothing you could do to change their minds because the people making the initial filtering selections have no idea what is required for the position, nor what the words on a resume mean.
However, I'm still working in IT 5+ years after that, and have been working in a variety of fields (with specific expertise that well exceeds any that can be gained in college). I went back and got an MBA as well, so whenever I get tired of working for a living, I can move into management (I've had management-level positions and supervised people, but have avoided taking the actual management positions because that's not my personal preference now). If that ever occurs, I will have worked my way up from the begining ($20k per year crap support job) through varying technical positions into management wihout ever having a degree in anything technical. So it isn't necessary to succeed. However, it is quite hard to take that path, because even now when I look at positions, people seem to expect a technical degree.
Learn to love Alaska
Smaller companies have, in the past, emulated this behavior. However, as time has passed, as a way to gain a competitive edge, more and more have begun to take long, hard looks at un-degreed candidates for a couple of reasons:
The lower pay level is temporary, so don't go thinking that just because you don't have a degree, you're gonna get jizzed for the rest of your life. Non-degreed employees experience an initial loss of income, but over time, likely within 5 or 10 years, the value of experience plus your own ability to negotiate your employment contracts will normalize your income.
Myself, I don't have a degree, and I've held lead developer and system administrator jobs that have paid me competitive rates. I'm now the owner of a small development shop, and the lack of college degree doesn't matter one bit. My advice, if you're going to roll without a degree, is to not stop looking for that first, entry-level job, and to work your ass off at it. Put in extra hours, be a fucking superstar, and put on as many hats as you can. If you're a developer, learn systems stuff. If you're a systems guy, learn to do development, or design, or SOMETHING. Without a degree, you are your major selling point, and the more you know how to do, the more attractive you are to employers.
The important part of all your replies is TIME. 10 or 15years ago the number of people working in IT and the proportion of them with a CS degree was significantly less. Also take into account the amount of people who are encouraged to transfer to IT. The number of university graduates in CS increases every year. In the current market getting a job without a degree is almost impossible. Unless you have experience. Getting experience requires either contacts or a DEGREE. You can only show what you know once you get to an interview. With the shear amount of people who think there good at IT out there every job vacancy has hundreds of applicants. Certificates show you know about the systems involved while a degree shows you know the theory. This is in principle the only way to be sure is to interview. So while you can get a job without a degree its better to go for it. As if you don't you will be competing with people with 10 or 15 years experience on you which you will never catch up on.
The first question would be what type of sysadmin do you want to be and do you have any good contacts? I did consulting for a number of years (small to mid size companies) and the lack of degree never hurt me.
But wait; now you are getting bored. You realize that you are lucky to roll out one server every two years and 80% of your time is patches/account maintenance/backups. The more you think about it, the more you realize that you could be replaced tomorrow because your boss/his boss thinks that all you do is push buttons. If you are wise you spent all that sysadmin free time (you have free time right? All good sysadmins should) learning about what interests you and getting certs as those are what it will take to "move up" if you don't have contacts and/or a degree.
Once you get to a higher level getting asked about what you need (ie: "The Budget") the ability to understand the relationship between IT and the business is critical to your continued growth within the organization. I had to do a business case/presentation for a data dedupe solution that I wanted and I can say without a doubt that the writing and research skills I gained during my bachelors (and now masters) courses helped me a more than just a bit when it came to getting the purchase approved.
At the bare minimum I would say that you need to start earning certs and building your business contacts. Join local user groups or even Infragard (if IT security interests you). Set up a Linked In profile and join a bunch of groups (on that site). A degree can always come later should you feel that it will help you further advance your career. I can tell you that when it comes to many larger companies a degree figures in what your pay will be. Fair or not it is just the way things are.
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
I agree. It's not so much who you know as what you know. I've seen several sysadmins without college degrees achieve their position by taking a tech support role or something similar and then demonstrating talent and interest beyond your job. If someone in your organization notices that your talent is wasted in a support role and needs you elsewhere, you'll get promoted, degree or no.
i graduated without honors, pretty much unheard of in the UK and people thought my prospects would be terrible. I took a job doing some development at a small company, worked fucking hard and did well. i've always been a good coder etc, i just didnt get into the uni way of life.
a few years later i get paid more than any of my graduate friends in the same field, am further up the ladder and can jump between jobs. when i was recently looking for work not one recruitment agent asked about my degree, it was all about experience.
if you are good at what you do and you like doing it then your likely better than the majority that are treating it as 'just a job'.
(web dev in london)
jaymz
I see absolutely no correlation between a university degree and the ability to support anything, whether it's some leftover turnkey application that runs on SCO or 1000+ servers.
I have a degree, but I became a sysadmin as an intern. I happened to enjoy the courses leading up to the degree, but the subject matter has very, very little to do with any of the work I've ever done as a sysadmin, or even as a systems architect. I got practical experience on the job, including how to drive an API, and a wealth of other experience that simply was not available in school.
Granted, there is a distinct advantage to understanding programming paradigms. I probably could have learnt the basics on my own, but it doesn't seem likely that I'd have entered the market with them. OTOH, I was hired out of school for systems support, then moved to software engineering when some idiot manager thought it would be a good idea to decimate the support staff. I found it to be utterly soul-crushing, but to be fair, it was a very customised system, e.g., they'd rolled their own network transport and DBMS.
That is, working alone or on a small development team is rewarding beyond description. Being a cog in a large software development corporation is a slow roast.
The enduring lessons I learned at university are critical reading and writing (handy with most manuals), the value of re-reading (manuals), and the value of project completion. The single most valuable lesson, which I use daily, is the confidence that I can tackle any subject matter, even when it seems impossible at first, with careful reading and asking questions. That alone is worth the time and money spent, because I know the difference between my own shortcomings and those of computing products.
Simply put, college provided enough trial and error for me to convince myself that I really grok computers. You may not need this for yourself, and it's too bad that most hiring managers don't have the same luxury of trial and error. They're probably going to be stuck with whomever they hire, so the degree is very attractive to them.
"Press to test."
(click)
"Release to detonate."
I went to college back in the 80's for about 2 months. I quit when they went on strike. I have no college degree and I work for the US Government. I've been a sysadmin since 1993. I've also held positions of network administrator and programmer (before they were called developers). I do typically advise people to get a degree when possible because I think that IT jobs without degrees may be the exception.
I don't have time to sift through the comments on this Monday after a Holiday, but I don't know if this has been presented... I have a Bach. degree from BIOLA (Bible Institute of L.A.). It's officially a Bach. of Science (I took the biblical language requirement to get it as a science degree) in Christian Education... I have the papers and ordainment to be a pastor, specifically, a youth pastor. In reality, that's a tough gig to raise a family on, so I do IT work. I hold a network/sys. engineer and DBA position at my company without a computer certificate or degree to my name.
I think the big thing a lot of people seem to forget about college is that it forces you to jump through hoops. Lots of them, every day. Tons and tons of hoops. Hoops you wouldn't otherwise give a damn about, but you do it because you have to.
Proving you can do this, and do it well, is pretty much exactly what I need to know about you. Guess what? Most of any modern job is doing just that; jumping through hoops. Sometimes the hoops in question are complex, and it'd be nice knowing you were able to manage your way through those at some point at a University.
Basically: given two people of equal knowledge, one with a college degree and one without, barring any personality concerns, I'll pick the university degree over the person without one any day.
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck? What is there to tell me that you won't just coast and accept said check and mail it in, day after day after day?
It's not fair to say that you're like that, because it's very possible you're not. However, when it comes down to it, I'm not willing to take that chance.
(Sidenote: I'm not actually a fan of bullshit and jumping through hoops, but to say they don't ever happen is a bit naive at best. Just saying...)
For people with zero experience. Degree, Certs are the tickets to pass the screening and interviews.
Say two people, one with degree and one without. Both have zero experience, and I only have time to interview one...you do the math.
But if you get some experiences, like self employ, or volunteer, or some recommendations and connections that can bring you to the Interview room, degree is not a must. As long as you get the ticket...
The interview would play an important role. Make sure you are prepared. Don't try to play smart and think the interviewer is stupid, that just says that you can't work in teamwork and can't communicate. Try your best to demostrate that your are passionate in the field, and is a quick learner.
Knowledge does play a role but not a top factor. People are most likely looking for those who can communicate well, and quick learners that can upgrade oneself from time to time, especially in IT field where speed of technology changes are blazing fast.
After you get the job. The degree and cert is a past. No one cares about your past history.
Some people learn a lot in the degree (say they might have participated in extra-curriculum activates, or simply means they learned how to interact with people and do teamwork), some people learn nothing and wasted 4-years just on WoW. The HR and interviewers all know this fact, but if it's still better than nothing.
If you want a position for sysadmin in the Microsoft world, you're going to have to spend a few thousand getting certifications. You'll need those whether you have a degree or not.
If you're going for a position with Linux or Unix, check out a local LUG (Linux Users Group) for some great resources and job leads.
Don't stop there though. I got my last SysAdmin job from a guy I played Battlefield 1942 with who was a fellow Linux enthusiast. You never know when opportunities pop up and where, so keep your eyes open.
Evil Walrus >83=
Well, I don't have a degree, but I spent about 6 years in college, studying applied mathematics, physics and computer science.
I never finished mainly due to a liberal arts requirement, lack of money and a lucrative job years ago in visual effects. But I never
stopped educating or training myself. Everything from Veritas cluster, LInux/Solaris internals classes to management classes.
I've been working as a senior Unix engineer/administrator for over 15 years and currently I am vice president of Unix engineering at an investment bank.
So far this has never been a problem, so far, knock on wood. The last two jobs I've had required a degree, my current required a MS or MBA. But my supervisors were happy with my interview, my references and my experience and would deal with HR to get me on board.
But I would NEVER, EVER recommend the path I've taken for anyone. If you are relatively young, go (back?) to school and at least get your
Associates and take some related classes and do what you can to get some experience.
That being said, I never usually look at someone's education, unless they have little or no experience and even then, I look
for people who are willing to learn, have a genuine interest and curiosity in the work and a good personality.
It is true you can't learn system administration in school, but you can learn the foundations for a lot of the things you do as
you advance in your career. I've used the basics I've learned in my OS courses and have applied concepts from algorithm classes
as I have done more at some of my employers than just bread and butter SA work, including systems programming.
But I've been looking at finishing my degree for sometime now, just need to find a few cycles. Considering a
degree in management, finishing my applied math degree or a comp sci degree.
Good luck to you.
I actually got a job as a sysadmin and was making 6 figures without ever making a degree in any related field... however, it all depends on what you know and (pardon me for saying it) how good you are. I was able to pull it off because I grew up in a household where my father worked in the computer industry (as a Salesman) and literally brought minicomputers home for me to play with. I spent my whole childhood programming, fiddling, and hacking, and developed an incredible intuitive grasp for computers and what makes them tick. I followed that up by going to college and flunking out of everything by spending all my time in the computer lab learning everything I could about UNIX and Networking back in the early nineties, just before the Internet hit big.
However, even then it took a lucky break--I was working in the college computer center as an assistant to the chief systems engineer on campus when he got fired. Since I was the only hand on deck who could do his job, I got to do the job (for peanuts) while this state institution tried to hire someone. After three search committees failed to find someone qualified willing to work for what the university was willing to pay, they gave me the job officially.
For what it's worth, I did eventually get a degree... a B.A. in Philosophy concentrating in Religious Studies, followed up with a Masters in Theological Studies. But that was for me, and hasn't had any impact on my job prospects.
So... I guess the short answer is, it's possible, but you'll need a lucky break at some point. And I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you've got the skills to make everybody ignore your lack of degree.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
The degree requirement is there for a couple of reasons. It weeds out the people who are truly and completely unqualified and it demonstrates a minimum requirement for someone with little or no experience in the actual work force.
Every job I've had for the past decade "required" a degree that I don't have. If you bring the experience to the table, the degree requirement isn't even discussed.
Now, having said that, I do wish I had a degree and I encourage anyone who has the time and wherewithal to get one -- not necessarily in CS or engineering -- even history or literature. Because I do feel like I have missed out by not having gone through that experience. Every now and then I'll hear somebody mention something and I have to go wiki it and get a quick primer and then, if it sounds interesting enough, I can learn more about it on my own. A solid university education gives you a nice broad exposure to a lot of things that you don't have time to get to in the work force.
I did the military instead and I swear I don't know how anybody grows up without either college or the military.
It is still possible, but it might take a while to obtain. The gatekeepers use the degree requirement as a way to weed through the multitude of applicants they get. They figure that a degree (in almost anything) shows that the applicant is able to apply him-/herself for at least four years. While I'll agree with many who say degrees are overrated, I will say this: they tell me that the applicant should have a basic body of knowledge. Experience is what lets us take book knowledge and make it work in the enterprise, so I'll favor experience any day. Sadly, I've seen both degreed and experienced people who simply can't make things happen in an enterprise. I'll assume you wouldn't fall into that categeory.
Unless you are well connected (a good network), it will be difficult to jump into a sysadmin position without a degree or significant prior experience. You may need to start in an entry level job and pray that you move through the ranks quickly. Alternately, and perhaps a better way for the enthusiast, would be to document all of the significant projects on which you've worked, and then seek out volunteer positions with non-profits. The non-profits will (most often) be more concerned about your skills, and since you won't be paid, they have less to lose in taking a chance on a non-degreed person. The non-profits will then give you those experience items on your resume (like a list of jobs--people perspective employers may call for references).
In any case, be sure to structure your resume to focus on your technical expertise, rather than your employment history. Start with a list of major projects and IT skills, then employment history, and finally education (if you have any degrees or certifications of any type). When preparing to interview, be sure to have stories and illustrations ready that demonstrate your level of skill, and the complexity of the environments in which you have served.
I landed my first two full-time IT gigs without a degree, but I started in support positions. Over time, I went back to school and earned a degree (in business management with an IT emphasis), mostly as a "just in case" degree--in case I ever needed to apply for another job, since degrees were starting to become a litmus test. In time, that degree served me well, and helped me to parley my way into some better positions.
So, it can be done, but it can be a long road.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Do yourself a favor and go to college. No matter how overpriced it is, you'll be better off in life with it than without it.
I'm not sure who you are addressing this to. I have a bachelors and a masters degree. Mine are non-technical. At the time I applied, I had a BS and MCSE and CCNA and 5+ years of experience. The HR department refuesed to pass my application on to the hiring department (I presume IT, but for all I know it was a customer service department) because I didn't have a degree in Computer Science. The only degree that counts as a degree was CS. Any other degree was counted as if they were a high school graduate, including if I were to re-apply now that I've completed an MBA.
Had they gone to college, they would have skills like critical thinking, leadership, and the ability to form complete sentences.
Well, I'm presuming from your attitude that you've completed college. However, you haven't managed basic reading skills. I said nothing that indicated someone shouldn't go to college. I indicated that I had gone to college (presumably an endorsement of it) and even after the experience I relayed, I went back for my masters (a further endorsement). And somehow you seem to take my comments to indicate that I'm supporting not getting a degree. I stated that someone may run into places where a degree is required (even when it shouldn't be) and thus will have limited access. However, even without a degree, one can still succeed. Starting off a reply with "sorry, but..." makes it sound like you are disagreeing, yet you said nothing that is in disagreement with what I've said. You essentially said "whether it is good or bad for your career, it is good for you personally." As for certs vs degrees, you are trolling. People with degrees like to claim superiority. However, I've seen nothing that supports that. I would guess that I have more degrees than you and more certs than you, and depending on what you are aiming for, one may be better suited than the other, but none of them are a reflection on the person holding them for anything more useful than sorting resumes. A degree is a cert, like all the others.
Learn to love Alaska
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but 10 years ago was right in the middle of the dot com boom, when if you could power on a computer, you could probably get an IT job.
Unfortunately, with the economy the way it is right now, nobody is hiring without a degree unless the person has significant "professional" experience. Lacking that experience, you're shit out of luck without a degree. Hell, even with a degree it's difficult to find a job without experience.
He could try going the startup route, but that's difficult without experience. "I don't have references, but I've networked my mom's basement" usually doesn't cut it.
I'm sure it's theoretically possible to start out without a degree right now, but he'd make his life 1000x easier by just getting the degree.
Maybe not
According to USA Today, 20.4% of farmers have a 4 year degree and 90% of farmers are self-employed and the middle half of farmers earn from $766 to $1382 a week in 2006. College degrees and income are in line with the rest of America and self-employment is much higher than the rest of the population.
Why is it that a college educated person running a business, with millions of dollars of equipment is considered uneducated?
wow, that's the really crappiest reason to attend university I've heard in a long time and I'm very very glad you're not my employee.
It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.
And it's absolutely true. Absent seriously special circumstances, I would not consider hiring someone without a college degree.
'Tis a shame the max for mod points is 5.
If you truly value experience over credentials, the experienced non-degree candidate gives you exactly that. In fact, they have nothing else to sell.
There are a few other benefits as well. Thanks to the mechanics of HR departments, the non-degree candidate is not likely to be a job hopper. Their only path to success is to pick up new skills and fully dominate the challenges in front of them. One other bonus: Never having to listen to someone trying to win an argument with the "But I have a degree!" logic. That alone makes the non-degree strategy worth considering.
The only downside is that people learn some useful skills in college. You need to verify that your candidate learned those skills somewhere (preferably at the expense of some other employer).
Considering the increasing number of foreign candidates with bogus degrees, the number of non-degree IT workers is much higher than anyone is willing to admit. The majority of offshore people have real degrees, but fakes are certainly out there. It certainly explains the occasional MSCS with third grade English skills who trips over a SQL select statement. Being a foreigner is not a prerequisite for having a fake degree, but it helps when the school in question has language and time zone barriers that interfere with verification. And of course, technology favors the fakers.
I once worked in government. They were REALLY strict about checking transcripts. About 5% turned out to be bogus -- people whose degree claims could not be substantiated with transcripts mailed from the school. The percentage of fakes would have been much higher, but the verification was limited to finalists -- people who were probably getting a job offer if their references checked out. God only knows how many fakes we would have caught if we considered H1-Bs or did a full verification on all candidates. I was originally hired as an entry-level temp, and reluctantly admitted by the HR department (only after they realized that I had accepted an offer and it was too late for them to say no). Thirteen years and 6 promotions later I still had no degree, but I was much higher in the org chart. As a department manager, I had candidates getting their applications tossed for bogus degree claims, while I had none in the first place. And of course, we hired contractors who were somehow exempt from the process.
If your company's degree verification is anything less than superb, you can assume that 5% of your co-workers have fake degrees.
No matter what a job requirement might claim, employers HIRE experience. Degrees are a screening criteria -- simply a reason to NOT hire a candidate. It allows the HR department to take a large stack of resumes and turn it into a smaller stack. If the stack is already small, the degree requirement is suddenly less important.
Some candidates think they can get hired by eliminating all of the reasons why employers are saying "No". To me, this is impossible. The excuses never end. I think it's much more productive to work on things that make employers say "Yes".
Some fields are truly credentials-based. You get the credential and sooner or later someone hires you. Getting into the field is merely a numbers game -- put enough paper in play, conduct a reasonable interview, and wait.
IT hiring has always been more like the world of dating. No matter what we SAY we want (personality, honesty, compatibility, etc.), the REALITY is different. An attractive person walks into the room and all heads turn. We preach the importance of degrees until a highly experienced candidate walks into the room, causing the discussion to shift dramatically.
For what it's worth: I have over 20 years of experience in practically every job you can get in the IT industry. Although I have no degree, my career has been a great success. Not everyone should follow my example, but no one should be discouraged about the possibilities.
I tell IT people to plan their educ
You know, it's real funny your asking this question. I was just going over this myself. I find you will need: 1.)Either industry certifications with experience. Or 2.) College degree with experience. It is so HILARIOUS that some people say your Doomed unless you get a degree. Typically these are the people you want to stay away from. Yes, it's good to get/finish a degree. Yes, it's good to get industry certs. Even better if you have all the above with experience. I've worked for the world's 3rd largest oil conglomerate in I.T. Perhaps you've heard of them, they go by the name Schlumberger. They hired me based on personality, skill set, and the desire to grow/learn. Yes, it is possible to work your way through, but you will find it easier to obtain the "good IT" job with certs or degree. So if you choose the certs way. Force yourself to do two things. One buy the right book and two READ it. Then you can go take a test and pass the test. Good luck to all of you who have made it through College/Certs/Hard work. I commend all of you who are in inspiration to me.
Just start your own business. You don't need an employer if you already have a computer. Just start writing an interesting program or start offering some sysadmin service, you alone or with friends. No degree needed. No investment needed other than your own effort and time. I really cannot understand why everyone skips entrepreneurship as something remote or utopian and only thinks of becoming an employee when realising that they need some income. I can understand that you would prefer to become an employee if your specialty is about aerospace engineering because the tools of your job are more readily found in companies rather than at home, but with computers you already have anything you need to start producing. You only need creativity and intelligence.
And here I thought that college was just a way to prove you know how to spend an exorbitant amount of money to have someone who isn't actually in the field teach you something you could learn on your own with outdated equipment and concepts.
So you're under the misguided assumption that University actually teaches you important skills that are used in the pursued career?
Listen: college didn't teach me anything I didn't already know about software engineering. Mostly it just took up my time and my money. Showing a willingness to jump through those hoops for the end goal (a degree) was apparently enough to interest my employer, who hired me as an intern. I learned more working on the job in my first 2 months than I did the entire 4 years of University combined.
Add to this was our University president, who at commencement stated "Remember: an undergraduate degree does not mean you are educated. It simply means that you are educatable."
The whole point he was trying to get across was that we didn't go for an undergraduate degree to learn the subject matter so much as we obtained an undergraduate degree to learn how to learn.
The thought process is "teach a man to learn, and he will learn his entire life".
If you're not going to go get the degree, you have to compensate for it by being more competent than you otherwise would have to be to get the same job. When I walk into a job interview people look at my resume, and bang, strike one. I have to make up for that by being better than their other candidates by enough to overcome the bias. You say you're an enthusiast, but almost everybody trying to get an entry level position at any decent company in this industry is to some extent. The question becomes, are you better than most enthusiasts with degrees?
If I had it to do over again, I'd just get a degree. With the economy in the crapper, now's the perfect time to do it. If I didn't love my job and have a mortgage to pay I'd probably do it myself.
By the way, there's always the tech support route. It's real easy to get a tech support job without a degree. Sure, the work sucks, but you get your foot in the door somewhere. If you're good, you can move out of there into a "real" job. The flip side to that is that a resume with nothing but tech support on it might actually be worse than no resume at all. There have been "Ask Slashdots" about that before.
Game... blouses.
Depends.
Schools these days target the lowest common denominator in order to keep their graduate and placement rates up. It's a fine balance between reputation and the bottom-line. Unfortunately modern institutions are increasingly concerned with profits and find it difficult to resist the temptation to give a few more grads a free ticket to impress their investors/beneficiaries.
It's also not really fair to exclude people of a certain economic fair who may not have been able to afford the luxury of a college or university education. Speaking from experience, I came from a poor family and couldn't afford four years at ever-increasing tuition rates on a part-time wage. That fact has no relation to my intelligence or capability -- I work on web, computer graphics, and computer vision technology and I never spent a day in university or college.
I might try joining an institution some day, but my hopes of finding a more rigorous and dialectic education remain dashed. Too many institutions are monastic and profit-driven factories. Boring.
I'm sure I've sat across the interview table with people who have the same opinions as you. I obviously didn't get hired by them. In hindsight, I'm rather glad. The people who do tend to hire me have a broader insight into reality.
No degree. No certs. Went through the whole CNE 4.1 bit but never bothered with the test. My ability is what people come to me for. None of my top guys have degrees. None of them have certs. They are all too busy.
I have never seen a degree program that could improve the troubleshooting process that goes on inside someone's head. A lack of functional fixedness is a major plus and that can't be taught either.
We tend to laugh at MCSEs and people with Computer Science degrees. They come out of their training with ideas that need to be beaten out of them to make them useful. (Three users on a network! Lets install a domain!!! (GAAACK!?)) We've tried hiring a few people with MCSEs and A+ certs. They are all gone. Degrees and certs do not delineate a person's ability. You are better off asking applicants how they would solve various technical issues so you can see their brain at work.
Lots of customers ask me how their kids/relatives can get into the business. I tell them that a certification might get them an entry level job but the real important bits are how they think and how much experience they have. They need to be the type of person who remembers every bad thing that ever happened to them and what they had to solve those things. Then they have to go out into the world and let bad things happen to them for about 10 years. Then they will be good techs.
Programming is a totally different side of IT. A degree would actually make a difference there. Companies also love to snap up young programmers too.
hmmm....
Anyway - I'm a well payed CTO (33 years old) got and conditional offer to work at Google this year (very interesting terms). I studied Physics with the Philosophy of Scince Msci, but dropped out.
If you're bright, you have ideas, and you can make them a reality, then you will will do well. a degree, is only good for proving you can get a degree.
Because you can - or because you should?
Exactly. All these people saying "OF COURSE you don't need a degree!!!" and posting stories about how they were able to break into IT and get a six-figure salary after dropping out of the 4th grade need to realize that it isn't the 1990s any more. Back then every company suddenly needed IT workers, and there was a terrible shortage; companies would hire anyone breathing if they knew how to set up a web site, regardless of formal training. Now every job posting will usually get multiple applications from people with degrees, and companies are able to be choosy.
seriously? for a technical role?
I could see for a professional engineering role, MechE, EE, ChemE, Biologist or something like that, you don't really want bridges or chemical weapons built by amateurs, but for a technical role?
Respectfully, that seems too limiting.
If you're looking for help desk workers you may be right. For more intellectually demanding jobs, a PhD here or there might prove more beneficial.
Totally shameless plug for our podcast where we just talked about how much school really matters. Of course the episode was totally biased (all university guys) so we naturally came to the conclusion that we didn't waste our money on our fancy degrees.
I know for programmers there are a lot of "theoretical" topics you learn in university that you never think you'll need, but when you do, you'll be thankful you have it. For example, algorithm performance, compiler construction, or database theory are actually quite applicable in most jobs, just not everyday. When you do utilize it, you (and hopefully your team) really appreciate the knowledge.
http://basementcoders.com/
Did it teach you what anecdotal evidence is?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Ecole Polytechnique ... or try your local Lodge [wink wink].
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I don't even check whether or not someone has attended college when I look at a resume. However, HR insists on putting down 'college BS required'.
.... if someone has the means to attend college, I would never advise against it. I just wouldn't advise someone to go into large scale debt to do it. Live at home or attend part time. Put on your resume 'Attending college and working towards a BS in whatever'.
I would argue that not going to college shows how smart someone is by getting into the work force 4 years early and not spending big bucks. My salary has consistently been at or above the average for whatever part of IT I was working in. I took courses based on what my employer needed my skills to be, not on what some college thought I needed, and used tuition reimbursement to cover several of them. The studies that show 'college degrees mean X% more in pay' are bogus, they may show correlation, but they don't show cause. Since people who are smarter and more motivated tend to go to college, of course they make more money later in life. It doesn't mean college had anything to do with it.
Smart, motivated people don't need degrees. Average people need degrees to suggest they might be smarter than they really are.
HOWEVER
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
payed? you are obviously too well PAID and undereducated for your job!
I too have had several great high paying IT jobs with only 1 year of college and 5 years of crypto in the Army. College helps mostly when you are just starting out, it gets you in the door. Once you've had a good job with good references in IT, especially 5-10 years worth, it makes less of a difference. The military will really help you out. Many hiring managers will be ex-military and recognize your worth. Also, many managers that I've had regard the military higher because for many careers, it shows that you can do more than what college requires. Regardless, you'll have to have something compelling to offer. Every job I've had listed a college degree as a requirement, but obviously it wasn't. If you have experience, great. If not, then you'll have to convince the hiring manager that you're smart, motivated and will work for less, or maybe on contract until you prove yourself. I learned a lot on my first job with EDS. It didn't pay great at first, but after several years it did and it really helped propel me in my next and next jobs.
HTH
The majority of the worst programmers/developers I've worked with had degrees, the absolute worst had doctorates or masters degrees in computer science or math. Most of the best developers and architects I've worked with were self taught and had no college degree. In fact, there was one person that we interviewed a while back that I really liked. But three of the interviewers felt like you did, no degree, no job. We discussed many times whether we should hire him over some other people that had Masters degrees but lacked experience. In the end, we hired the person without the college degree and that individual was the best thing that ever happened to the company. He met every deadline, had motivation and imagination like no one else I've met, could solve nearly every problem creatively and very cleanly. Had an incredible ability to interpret what you really want in a spec as opposed to how you describe it. Looking at support tickets, most of what he put into production had very few problems except where a business requirement was misunderstood but otherwise, you could trust that if he implemented the functionality, it was ready to go production when he said it was. That individual understood more about technology trends, design patterns, algorithms and data structures than some of my own college professors. In short, he was one of the best hiring decisions we made for that company and one of the best programmers I ever met. The company later also hired the individual (who had two master in computer science and mathematics) that it wanted to over the same candidate. The company had to let him go about a year later for lack of ability to complete assigned tasks and those he completed often were not reliable.
If anything, while I really don't care whether people have a degree or not (for business type software development positions or most types of heavy-duty server application development); I will pick the one with more experience regardless, depending on whether they can demonstrate the requisite skills and personality. I usually end up interviewing people for positions where they must be technically sound (much higher than average technical abilities) and be able to work very well with people because they will need to jump through hoops (as you put it). Otherwise I have no real bias. If the candidate can demonstrate his/her ability to perform and survive in the work environment, then I'll hire the candidate.
Me, I don't have a degree either. After 12 years I have worked up to be a software architect for one of the credit bureaus. Interviewing for the position was very difficult. Our technical ability must be top-notch to succeed in this company as well as our people skills. I'm accustomed to start ups. This is actually the first large corporation I've worked for and I can say, jumping through hoops is an understatement. But I do fine.
I have been attending college part time. All my schedule could afford is one or two classes per semester and it has taken me 7 years to get finally get an associates degree. I stopped there. I work long enough hours at work than to leave and attend school for 3 hours two or three times per week plus homework. It was beginning to affect my marriage and my ability to keep my skills sharp at work. I don't learn on the job, I learn at home. So I stopped attended school.
You likely wouldn't hire me for that. A lot of others that only look for paper also wouldn't. But can pull my own weight and have outperformed many of my peers wherever I've worked. I also have produced or played very large role in launching many products into the market place that have succeeded very well. But I likely wouldn't be happy working for a place that is so superficial that if you don't have a degree, you don't get a job (for the type of work that I do).
Having a degree does not translate into knowing how to perform your job well. Of course, not having a degree does not mean you can't do can't job well, either. I suppose all things being equal between
Thank you. College graduates form a tight, very insular clique that makes it very difficult for those without one to get into any sort of skilled position, regardless of abilities and skills.
In my last job, I was the only employee out of a group of probably 150 that didn't have a degree. It wasn't a computer programming field, though; I've always wanted to work in that area, but I don't have a degree, so I'm dismissed out of hand.
I donno about that. My father was a coal miner (and still is). My mother stayed at home.
Actually, turns out that I'm the first on either my mother or father's side of the family who completed college. Of the roughly 10 cousins older than I, 3 attended college at the same time or before I. One dropped out to work, another got hooked on smack, and the last just took a long-ass time to figure out what the hell she wanted to do.
Do I sound like your stereotypical child of an affluent white family? My father was making about 28k a year (which is why my FAFSA reaped such huge dividends for me), and at least 1/3 of my family is either addicted to heroin, crack, or cocaine, with one particularly colorful cousin the proud mother of 4 crackbabies.
Needless to say, I don't consort with most of my family any longer.
But, I guess that just because I'm white, it automatically means my family was mega rich and completely adjusted, eh?
I think you and I are in the same camp. I dropped out after my first year of college in 1994 and started working in the tech bench at a big box retailer. Eventually, I moved through a few different positions, computer operator at a bank, then the data processing center at another company, until I got hired on to do phone support for our data products.
Eventually I moved into tech support, which led to a sysadmin career and then technical training. During that time, I pursued both the MCSE and CCNA certifications. Some of my certs were sponsored by my employer, others were not. After doing sysadmin work for a number of years, I moved into a more soft-skills focused role.
I've been more of a process management / performance management / business intelligence specialist the last couple of years. I just finished the first draft of my second book, and I will probably gross six figures this year. Not bad for an English major who dropped out after Freshman Year.
The bottom line is this. Whether or not you have a degree, expect to start at the bottom, and work your way up. If you advance too soon, you may be in over your head. If your career stagnates, it's because you haven't put enough initiative in moving forward.
Never be afraid of a challenge. My specialty is in Microsoft SysAdmin, but I can configure Cisco routers and switches with the best of them. I've installed a few Linux testbeds, and while it's not my OS of choice, I can manage my way through it.
I will say this; if you're not going to get a degree, at least pursue a basic cert like A+ or Network+ to start.