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IT Job Without a Degree?
adh0c writes "I have been lurking Slashdot for some time now without registering and I don't think this question has been answered yet. Is it possible to get a good IT job (assuming that there is such a thing), preferably a sysadmin position, without having a BS or other degree? From browsing the job postings on Monster and such, it would seem that everyone wants university papers. Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
Since, there are lots of people who have the degree, I think that you will be in bad shape to compete against them.
Without a degree, the only way to really get a sysadmin job would be a few years of experience, certifications, and some good recommendations/connections.
Do you really want to be a computer janitor? It's a good part-time or summer job but should only be a whistle stop on your way to CS degree or other useful education.
One of the things that has always appealed to me about computers is that people who deal with them are as often hired on ability as credentials. I don't know any IT guys who are respected for anything other than ability and how easy they are to work with. I hope that this isn't going to change. But I don't think it will, because some of us find these devices inherently fascinating, and spend endless amounts of time learning about them just because we enjoy it. It is very hard for someone just wanting to complete a degree and get a job to compete with that. I would say, based on my experience, that if you are good you will rise to your level regardless of credentials.
Augustus
I propose the article be renamed to "Useful (stupid) employment tricks"
There's no way you can start as a sysadmin without having the degree, but there are other ways. I'd suggest starting at a lower level with a company that will pay for your certs, get your MSCE, CCNE, etc and work your way up.
but it's certainly going to be harder getting a foot in the door.
I've seen autodidact sysadmins do quite a lot better than ones with degrees, however the reverse is also true.
In general my experience is companies will prefer one with a degree over autodidact people, reason being someone with a degree has shown ability to sit down and learn - this is very important since pretty much no matter what job you end up getting there is going to be some learning to get familiar with the running systems.
I'm the senior network administrator for an S&P 500 company and I have some college but no degree. I do have a ton of industry certifications, but I only got those for employers who asked for AND payed for them. Of course before I got my first "real" IT job I had already owned my own PC company for 5 years and volunteered for a number of different schools and charitable organizations so it wasn't like I went in with zero experience to show on the resume. I also started near the bottom as a deskside support guy. I think the only way to get in today without any formal education would definitely be to work a helpdesk position. Personally I would look for a midsized company because if you show good initiative, hard work, and some smarts it's a lot more likely you will move up from within. That's what happened to my junior admin, he had been stuck at the helpdesk level at a number of very large companies but within 2 years of starting with my company he was advanced because he showed all the traits needed to be a good sysadmin.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I never finished my degree, yet I have been able to pursue a computing career without it being a roadblock.
My present role is as an engineer at Google.
Sparks:Gadget:Beer Maker
That's not completely true. You can also do well going to a trade school instead of college.
We've had good results with simply giving out actual trial programming tasks and comparing the results of several programmers.
Degrees don't seem to be a strong predictor of usefulness.
Incidentally, we're hiring right now.
https://spideroak.com/blog/200810280100
But there are jobs and then there are jobs. Keep in mind that first and foremost question in the mind of a hiring person is whether or not you can do the job, and whether your skills are good value for the money they will be paying you. And plus you can forget the big labels. You will have to start in a small company, gain a few years of experience under your belt, and then try to apply for a better position.
Or instead, you can just do a few certification courses while you are working. While most companies would prefer someone with a computer degree, they also are willing to take someone who has proven level of skills.
... but I would advise against it.
I am living proof that it is possible, but that was right in the internet bubble, when I got media attention for designing a website and was hired as a web designer. I learned programming Perl and PHP on the job, together with basic sysadmin and this experience let me apply for a job as servicedesk employee, get more experience doing sysadmin stuff, getting my MCSE and ending up being a consultant, coÃrdinating 5 people in releasing software packages over 4000 machines working in a bank and insurance environment. And this within 10 years.
I suspect however that if you don't have any experience, you'll have a tough time getting a sysadmin position. Try to find a position as service desk calltaker, study hard on various certification exams and then go for junior sysadmin positions.
But remember employers will favour degree+experience over just experience... And in a tough economy with an overflow of available IT people with degrees, you score low.
...started as an operator and is now a Sr. VP at a very prominent software company. Start small and you can go a long way!
I hate being bipolar; it's awesome!
You may find a job without a degree, but expect to be offered half or less of what a person with a degree would get. My son-in-law "to be" worked as IT mgr for non-profit for several years while going to college and getting degree, and was almost instantly able to land a job making three times as much with full benefits as soon as he graduated and started applying w/degree in hand, (got job in Solar panel manufacturing/installation industry, an industry that seems to be holding it's own in the recession).
Short answer is "yes, you need a degree"
The fortune 500 typically have HR departments that roboticly follow a check-list and a college degree is almost always on that checklist. You won't even get to the point where an actual technical manager will see your resume without one.
But, smaller shops without an HR department to institutionalize stupidity may let you in to interview and if you are a hot-shot than no one gives a damn about a degree.
If you are a hot-shot, you can also work contract. Contractors often bypass the HR department completely, even at fortune500 companies. No one hires a contractor for their college degree. They do hire contractors for their experience and knowledge.
So, if don't have experience your only hope is a college degree. But if you do have experience and are good at it, then the world is your oyster.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
I've known many people who were great sys admins or developers who did not have degrees so it is possible. However, it is much easier to get a job if you have the degree. Every time you do a job interview you will spend 5-10 minutes explaining why you don't have a degree - that is, if they even bother to call you in. That's 5-10 minutes that you're spending getting yourself up to the level of the other applicants that you could have spent putting yourself above the level of the other applicants.
Your pay level may suffer throughout your career as well. When I was in college, I had a job as a developer at a computer company. I switched from a full-time student, part-time developer to being a part-time student, full-time developer. They even asked me once to drop out to devote more time to the job. One day they hired a new developer, fresh out of college. She was quite sharp but had 0 experience. One day it came out over lunch how much she was making and it was more than me. I asked my boss why and he replied "She has her degree". Needless to say, I didn't entertain any more requests to drop out and work more.
In my 3rd year of pursuing my Bachelors Degree in Telecommunications, I dropped out of College in 1996 for the allure of the Computer Industry. I started as an entry level IS Support Technician (Help Desk) and moved up several layers through the "Help Desk" chain. I realized after 2 years that getting out of Help Desk was going to be difficult. That's when I jumped ship for a startup company that offered me a Systems Administration job. I've been a Sys Admin since 1998 and feel the need at this time to go back and finish my Degree if I ever want to go into management of any kind.
To answer your questions:
"Can I get a Systems Admin position without a Degree?"
Yes you can, but you have to really work towards it by gaining a good amount of experience (3-5yrs technician work) and perhaps take some risks as many of us have in order to secure the rights to wear the Sys Admin hat.
"Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
I recommend at least an AA Degree and a couple of paper certifications to get you started. Anything less is reducing your odds significantly.
Disregard all these flame-boys with their computer janitor comments and remember this:
Do what you love to do.
If you have any doubts about what it is you want, I recommend taking on a "Geek Squad" job or looking elsewhere. You only get one really good "free" chance to start a career, try to make sure it's one you'll enjoy looking forward to for 30+ years.
There are typically two reasons someone will employ you without a degree.
1). They want to get the best skills without paying for them.
2). You have sufficient experience that no-one reads your resume far enough to notice you've never been to college and wouldn't care either way, or you present extremely well at interviews.
I'd say work on (2) because companies that focus on (1) tend to be bad employers, although not always. Sometimes it's just employers who realise the value of the skills you have, not the paper you paid for that claims it.
GrpA
Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
I manage an area that fortunately has lots of people interested in working for us, doing sys admin work amongst other things. I wouldn't hire you. The problem is, all things being equal, the guy with a college education is going to win. Unfortunately, all things generally are equal. There's no shortage of people with good attitudes, good experience, and are bright. So, often the education becomes a focus. It proves you know how to learn, can follow directions, and have some discipline to pursue a long-term goal.
Now, having said that, if one of my friends told me I had to hire you, I'd generally trust them and do it. So, it's possible to work your way up, but it's hard.
I recommend working for the phone company. It's more interesting than computers anyway.
----- obSig
Just write a decent resumé/CV that outlines your abilities. Degrees don't mean squat in IT. People with them would like to think otherwise, but they don't. What matters is end results. If you are competent, skilled, and available, you're fine. The number of people with degrees I've worked with who were shit at their jobs is incredible - a degree does not automatically mean a person is skilled, and not having one doesn't mean you're not skilled. My advice: go for it.
A degree is one way of getting your first job. A basic BSc. won't really mean anything after the first 2 years in the industry, although some employers will pay more attention to a Masters, or a Doctorate especially.
If you can't show previous jobs, write your own software and publish it somewhere. Or contribute to open source projects. There are some people who can read code who also have the power to hire.
Get some industry certifications. Microsoft certification, (*ducks*) Java certification etc. are all worth something to some people. That's something you can get yourself for a lot less time and money than a degree although they're generally not worth as much.
All that aside, the current job market is not your friend right now - or anyone elses for that matter. :(
Never trust a man in a blue trench coat, Never drive a car when you're dead
It all depends on a lot of things, of course! Do you have any experience? What is your work background? If all of your experience is customer service at Best Buy, then you're probably not going to have much luck, going in cold.
You've got several options, none of which are easy.
You've got plenty of options... good luck!
--brian
Take on some volunteer work at a local charity of some sort as the IT guy, work your way up the volunteer chain until they start paying you for it.
I do have a colleague whose first job was right out of highschool at a local AIDS charity, ended up in the regional office for a while, now he works at some hosting firm for pretty decent money
...that specifically drops that requirement from any consideration or makes working for the degree a lot less costly.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Experience + certs.
You will have to tough it out for a year or two on helpdesk or desktops or field grunt work. Do your certs at night.
Cisco engineer, no tertiary IT qualifications at all, doing just fine with CCNA + experience + references.
Read Noble Laureate Michael Spence's famous article about Job Market Signaling Once you understand the thinking of this article you should try and think about what signals can you send to potential employers. It has to be something that can not easily be falsifier and it has to have been "expensive" for you to achieve. Expensive defined as effort by you. Contributing meaningful to an Open Source project or something like that.
Help fight continental drift.
See above.
The second thing I want to say is be patient. You're going to get an entry-level position and you've got a lot of learning to do. If you're willing to learn and you show ability, then you'll get more responsibility.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.
I currently work as a Systems Architect, working on fairly distributed systems and a wide range of languages and tools. I have the Finnish equivalent of a High School education, on the formal level.
I started in a help desk job and worked my way up, always trying to learn new stuff and seeking out new jobs when I felt I was standing still. With enough experience I now hold positions which need the skills equivalent of a university level education.
So yes, it's possible. Risky, but possible. Learn the art of interviewing.
.: Max Romantschuk
I'm a Systems Engineer (SAN & ESX) at a large Australian hosting company. I started out as a Level 1 phone tech at an ISP, switched after a year to the hosting company as a Level 2 and after about 2 years went for my current role. You can get a Sysadmin job without a Uni degree but: - You'll have to work your way up vs going straight in after Uni - It's probably easier at the same company provided you keep a good rep for hard work without drama - You learn outside of the role eg. setup a home ESX cluster from old comps, this doesn't have to be training with a piece of paper (though it helps) but just to show you really know your subject matter
But, if he had been nerding at home, he would have a job by now. Looks like submitter missed the boat: too old to get enough experience by himself, too old to go back to school and be taken seriously afterwards. No hope, this one has.
It is not physically possible.
It's all fun & games until someone loses the game.
I've dropped out of college six or so times (depends on how you count) and still don't have a degree. Nevertheless I'm holding a very technical and highly challenging and enjoyable programming position and absolutely no one I work with cares in the least about my interrupted education. What they do care about is my technical ability and I wouldn't have been hired if I hadn't been able to impress the engineers I interviewed with.
That said, the company I work for isn't too large, and I was referred by a friend, so I was able to clear the first hurdle of just getting noticed. It's unfortunate, but with larger companies especially, a decidedly non-technical person (or an equivalent SQL query) will be reviewing your resume and will only be looking for certain magic keywords. My advice is to make sure you're solid technically (which you should be anyways), then either try at smaller companies where you're more likely to be noticed, or impress someone and have them bring your resume in. There are, I'm sure, other ways to go about this, but that's my experience. Good luck.
"I am Dr. Freud, but you may call me.siggy."
Getting an SA/SE/NE job without a degree is fairly easy. The degree is only useful in passing the initial HR education check. I recommend that you bypass this check by having an insider get you an interview. Once you have your first job and foundation for a resume, finding other/better jobs becomes much easier. Passing the phone screen and interview will be entirely on you. Make sure your fundamental skills are sharp. Look over the job listing and invest 72 hours reviewing your weak spots. I conduct a number of phone screening and p2p interviews. I have a list of general questions ranging from basic to complex. For SAs, I usually start with the following.
/commands that they are most comfortable with. I could care less if they know the intricacies of windows/unix/linux chattr/chown/chmod, I just need them to understand the concepts and be able to read, interpret, and implement the information in a man page. I've ended up converting a fair number of MCSEs to actual SAs this way.
In pseudo script (any language, bash, dos, etc)do the following:
copy a file from dir A to Dir B
copy a file from server A dir A to server B dir B
copy all/only xml files from server A dir A to server B dir B
copy all files except xml files from Server A directory A (recursively) to servers B, C, D, E
As you see, the questions range from "are you retarted", to "are you useless" to "are you actually able to use what you know to solve something". I really don't care if the candidate is 100% syntactically correct on the phone. What I do care about is "how" they think. Do they use a for loop and find combo (for foo in `find . -name *xml` ; do scp dirA/${foo} user@serverb:/dirb/ ; done ), or are they using ls/grep/xargs, or do they not know scp, ftp, or windows UNC path utilization and shouldn't be interviewing for an SA position. I have a set of questions for pretty much evey dicsipline that a job at my company would require (regex, sql, etc), and let the candidate use the language
YMMV but I don't even have a High School Diploma, and have a well paying job in IT as a Systems Engineer/Admin. I get to go overseas to work with an expense account that pays for most everything. If you have a good outgoing personality, and have a real interest in what you do, you will succeed. I see too many drones that have Diplomas up the ying-yang, that got into the industry because "they thought IT was a good career choice" while absolutely having no interest whatsoever.
Actually, the most well paid (well into 6 figures) buddy I have doesn't have a High School diploma. On average everyone I know that doesn't have a Uni Diploma makes MORE than the ones that do. Again, YMMV.
Your evaluation period for Productivity 1.0 has ended. Please purchase more coffee to continue using this product.
Of course you can. I left High school 2 years early, got a diploma (dunno what that equates to in the US?) and now Im contracting in an unrelated discipline (Diploma in Network Engineering, working Web Design/Development). And before someone mentions $$ - both by previous and current contracts are six figures. I was somewhat lucky, but I am also living proof you don't always need a piece of paper.
What is...?
No degree?
Shipping in a PhD is more cost effective than hiring you.
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm. Don't let anyone lie to you and say you need a degree, for what you lack with paper you'll just need to make up for with effort.
Qualifications aren't just for show, they mean that you've extended your knowledge in the area and that someone has verified it.
There's a lot more to computing than writing a few programs that do something useful without crashing. That's important too, but it barely figures on the wider scale of merit of a computing professional.
What a CompSci education gives you is tons and tons of theory and context: theory so that you have a large portfolio of logically sound techniques upon which to draw instead of reinventing them and doing so badly, and context so that you understand why you're doing something, why you should not do something else, and how your solutions fit in with all the other methods and systems in the subject area.
Without an education in this field, you won't even know when you're making a mistake, owing to lack of theory and context. Your boss may like you because you'll always be saying "Yes" (until everything falls apart), but nobody else will appreciate it, not even you yourself in time. And you'll feel dumb every time that you come into contact with other computer people, as well as getting a bad rep because you can't hide ignorance in tech.
Just don't.
Take the time and make the effort to get yourself a proper CompSci education. You won't regret it.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Getting a job in IT without a degree is extremely challenging.
Without a degree you may be able to get a Hell Desk job at most. From there depending on the company and your performance, you might be able to climb the ladder.
To get yourself promoted, take on projects outside of your normal duties, making sure you can succeed at them. Nobody gets promoted simply by keeping clientele at bay on a daily basis.
In order to receive pay raises, you may need to switch companies. Companies rarely notice (salary wise) how much experience an employee has gained over the years.
In the end though, you may be out of luck. The company I work for did not give me a decent paycheck until three months before I got my BS. I had a two year degree already, which is probably what allowed me to get my foot in the door.
Consider getting at least a two year degree from a reputable community college. Avoid private technical colleges like the plague, nobody takes them seriously. Load up on credits that you can transfer to a four year public university, and get a BS degree in something.
A degree might take five years, but that five years will last a lifetime. However, five years of job experience may only last a decade.
A computer science BS degree is four years long? Or more? Although, the cases are much greater that you will convince recruiters and interviewers, that you have the skills to make the business want to hire you. You do not necessary need such a BS degree. What I did was take Certificate courses at University of Washington for C, C++ and JAVA. Each langauge coonsisted of 3 classes. Beginning C, Intermidate C and finally C Advanced. So, for a total of 9 classes for the 3 languages. At about 500 dollars a class, this aproach is WAY WAY less than a full blown 4 year commitment to a BS degree. The final BILL and resulting student loans may take years and years to pay off. What you need to do, is build web sites. Write software, even if the software is already commmon and written. Have code and working programs as proof you can code. If you are in Networking, write articles and Subnet masks, how they work, and post them to as many blog and tutorials HOWTO sites as you can. making sure your Full real name is credited with their submission and prove they are authentic. Finally, make friends on the Internet, by chatting in Forums and collecting a 'contacts list'. Meeting people already in the field, I have been offered many jobs, even to goto London to work for someone there. What you may end up finding you will only know. until you try. Dont expect to find anything, just do it and see what happened. Have a portfolio of your work, that with Certs in your specific fields of interest (even able to be taken ONLINE) is the most efficient way through pricy college fees.
Unless you don't have the paper DUE to a lack of effort! Not that I would know...
WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
Depends on the country and how snobby the company is. There are plenty of smart companies hiring autodidact people, but they just have to prove their credentials through other means, and will be tested harder at interviews.
Personally I work as CDO without any degree, but that is because I've studied at the highest IT education in Denmark where it is common for students to quit before finishing the degree because they are offered 6 figured salaries (in dollars).
On the other hand, I turned down a job offer from Google, because their mentality there is such that you can't have a career there without a Ph.D.
So if you want to get hired as an autodidact, either work you way from the bottom, or get involved in open source and write some really awesome code that proves your proficiency.
I agree with starting at a lower level position but I'm not sure about no IT career without a degree.
I work for my college's IT department, it's a small shop and my direct boss doesn't have a degree. However he spent quite a few years at a couple different places getting lots of experience and he is now the senior help desk guy and mid-level sys admin. As I said we are a small shop so there is alot of cross over between jobs but not all of the higher level people have degrees.
With that said, without a degree you aren't going to get the top level jobs, my brother has a BS in CS and an MBA and makes six figures as a system administrator. I don't think someone without a degree or a ton of experience has that much earning potential. Though if you've got what it takes and don't mind proving it for a few years I think it's possible to get a career in IT without a degree.
As with most places it is who you know, not what you know. Applying for a job online you need to compete with MANY x10 applicants who do have letters after their names.
If you are applying for a local job where you know people or cn network with people who do know, then you have a chance.
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~Plato (427-347 BC)
The answer to this question really depends on the economics of the job market.
If there is an excess supply of degreed Systems Administrators and a limited number of available positions, much like now, getting a Systems Administration job without a degree is nigh-on impossible.
Alternatively, if there is a high demand and limited supply of degreed Systems Administrators, it's a piece of cake to get a Systems Administration position without a degree. The role may be a junior position, however it's a foot in the door and it will lead to the experience one needs to stay in the Systems Administration game without a degree even during difficult times.
If you're trying to get your first job now, reconsider whether it might make more sense to try to get a degree first. You can probably work a crap job part-time and live with the parents for a few years now in order for a pay-off in a few years.
If you must get a job now, and without a degree, set your expectations very low. You won't be doing much of the fun stuff.
I agree 100%... Being an ITT alumni as well as attending so called "upper level" colleges, most non-technical colleges pale in comparison to a true tech degree. I learned more from google and written sources than the instructors or rather the course materials from UOP. I only have my A.A.S from ITT and have a salary comparable to what statistics say a masters degree holder should make. All in all its what you know imo, but then again I have been turned down for a job cause I didn't have a MS cert... It's always funny listening to the response from the interviewer when I ask them to bring their best "MSCE" to field some real world aptitude questions.
It won't get you a job.
Third..ed? Left school in junior year and got a job repairing macs. Stayed there for three and a bit years and found a great job as a sysadmin for a reasonably sized organisation.
I'd say the most important thing is perseverance, and obviously you have to know something about what you're doing. This all comes with work experience. Good luck to you.
Getting job is one side of coin, the second side is getting safe job means you are sure for no reason related to academics you will be sacked, so getting job is easy without degree because working is directly proportional to competency & skills but staying and getting up in the verticals. seems tougher without a degree.... i myself started working in IT company before i was out of my grad school.
Oh, and whatever you do. Don't get a job working in phone support. I've heard it's incredibly hard to get out of, and you learn very little. Look for a job that challenges you every single day.
While I don't need to find new a job, I could instantly work in half a dozen places all around the world. Solely because I know people who work in the field with those people knowing that I am good. Similarly, there are several people I know which would get a job offer from where I work if they ever need one.
You need to be good at stuff, know people who are also good at stuff and then make sure they know you are good at stuff.
Places to start this process (yes, it takes time and you must not expect quick results) are your local LUGs, IRC, mailing lists and FLOSS projects. LUGs having the advantage of consisting of people who are close to where you live.
And yes, this is a long-term investment.
You could do that during the .com boom. Then everything went boom, and so did those jobs.
I was making 6 figures and then left to start my own company, and I still make 6 figures.
Someone once told me this, and it is true. It takes 2 things to be a success. One is intelligence, and the other is drive. Someone with a lot of intelligence and no drive will find it very hard to succeed. Someone with a lot of intelligence and a lot of drive will find it fairly easy to succeed. Someone with a lot of drive and little intelligence WILL SUCCEED.
All things being equal, execution is what it takes to win.
It's by no means guaranteed. A lot of companies take what they think is the safe way out by hiring people whose papers are in order. Of course, the fact that someone has a degree, or has an MCSE, or whatever, is no guarantee that they know jack. (Especially in the case of MCSEs. ;)
If you don't have a degree, though, you're going to have to offer them something else - like quantifiable hands-on experience with the OS, demonstrable skill, and, ideally, freakishly inhuman quick-learner stuff.
I've been there; I've done that; I've said things like "Give me the AOS/VS manual and the Fortran 77 manual, and I'll be up to speed in a couple days" and delivered. It's not a career path for the faint of heart, nor, I suspect, for the sane.
By the way, this also applies to other fields - in my case, astronomy, environmental policy and foreign affairs. The PhDs know I'm not a PhD, but they generally figure I must just have a Master's. ;)
(Applying for grad school soon, in hopes of fixing that.)
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
You can have a proper understanding of computers with out going to a University. It just takes more dedication and willingness then the average person has.
I've had conversations with people that have a "proper CompSci education" and they couldn't hold an intelligent conversation about programming with a monkey.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
No degree, HS dropout w/ GED. No certs (I'm about to get my Security+ due to job requirements), in 100k /yr sysadmin position. Oh, and I managed to get a Secret Clearance out of the deal too...
Granted, I may have worked harder to get here, but it is possible. Even so, in the environment I'm in, I'd almost rather be in a trade then a Sysadmin type position.
There's a theory of trust called "signaling", the idea is that for those who do not know you personally there are particular 'signals' that someone who is a Philomath and a hard worker will fulfill. One of those things is to get a degree.
On top of that, even after you have a job, it is important to continue to 'signal' interest and motivation. If you stay later than you're "being paid for" and come in earlier than expected then you are 'signaling' interest in the wellbeing of the company. If you continue your education while doing the aforementioned you are 'signaling' that you are motivated.
A degree says one thing: you where willing to work hard enough to get through collage. It also opens up a career path. Without a degree you are only as valuable as your trade skill. With a collage degree you are able to advance, through an executive MBA or masters in your field, and become a leader of men.
If "database guru" is your life's goal I am sure you can make enough money to raise a family on without getting a collage degree. But if sending your own kids through collage is your intent then the number one predictor of that is you, yourself, going through collage.
It's fairly easy to get out of, if you get out quickly. Both places I've been, you're pretty much either out of the front line phones within a year, or you're stuck there practically forever.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
I don't know about the States, but up here in Canada they are addicted to Certs, age and University degrees for ANY job, let alone IT stuff.
I am a dual citizen, and moved back to London, England not long after I left high school. I grabbed a job as an IT tech at 19 years old that payed about 45k a year and moved up to 55k with-in 18 months. All they cared about was my experience, and even more important my ability. I moved back to Canada a few years later and was shocked to realize that they were perfectly willing to ignore my experience due to my lack of A+ certs. I got fed up being their "go-to" guy to fix all the cert'ed tech's mistakes, but they still refused to pay me the same.
I moved back to London and picked up an sys administrator job for the media dept. of a large sixth form college that payed 54K a year, day one. The guy I replaced was cert'ed up to his eyeballs, but they fired him because he could not relate to people.
I'm back in Canada for other reasons now, but only now that the baby boomers are starting to retire are companies getting over the age/Certs hang-ups.
I've recently been laid off, and I was thinking about looking for something entry-level in the IT field (help desk or something) and trying to get a foot in the door somewhere. (Hell, I've been looking at doing IT work all my life, but just never finished the BS in CS.)
Does it help to have worked on projects that you can show to someone? Will they care to see example code, or does this not come up as long as you can "talk the talk"?
The reason I ask is that, unfortunately, I've not written a line of C/C++ in over 6 years, and most of my recent work was done AT work (mostly JavaScript and VB, but I can pick up most languages pretty quickly), which then became the property of my company and was lost along with my job...in short, I can perform but I have nothing to show, and very little time to whip up something impressive to show off. Will that kill my chances?
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Yes it is very much possible to achieve something like that. My friends only have degrees from tradeschools (in finland at highschool level) (no MBA or BS) One is head-admin of a shipping company, another is his closest helper. Another of my friends have been offerd a job at a global shipping company admin. Then there are a few who are sysadmins in municipalities and on federal level here. None of them have a higher education degree.
I dropped out of High School as a sophomore. I immediately started working in the industry. I started out doing tech support, and eventually moved into network administration. In IT, what people care about is your ability. Companies know that the best IT workers are those that would do it as a hobby even if they couldn't do it professionally.
In Zoology. I got my first job on the strength of my CNE (old-school Novell certification, equivalent of a MCSE today) and willingness to work cheap. That started my career. Once you have experience it's all good.
I have had done very well but I do a lot of contract work. i have a good reputation and well respected for my views and ability to solve problems. With no degree or trade school training. Though I did try to do the trade school thing, hint go to college if you want the education. Most trade schools are proving to be ripoffs. I even worked for NASA on contract so yes its very possible to move in the IT field with no formal education. I have been a Lead Systems Administrator for a couple of companies and also worked as a CIO/CTO for a small company in Texas. A few people were very surprised I had no college education in the IT field whatsoever, which, as far as I know, there was only one person whom ever complained about being more qualified than me but the boss there shut him up. Not sure what he said to the guy but he stopped immediately. Truth is, this business is less about degrees than it is about results. If you make results happen you make a good reputation for yourself. Also anyone without a degree needs to be active in the online community so that you have an instant reference other than that. No degree no worries for me.
Get temp jobs doing computer type jobs for small companies. Show that you shine and youll be the "Whizz Kid". Even if its data entry or something. Your first few jobs might be a bit boring but the cunning plan is how you write your CV/Resume. That data entry job suddenly becomes
"Worked in the IT Department assisting with data collection systems and acted as first point of call for members of staff requiring support".
That'll act as a stepping stone for your next career move and before you know it you will be away!
N.
Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
Consider a job in infosec. Here are a few quick suggestions for building experience without a job - Research something within the infosec space, publish a paper - Find some vulns and publish some advisories (responsible disclosure!!) - Start attending OWASP chapter meetings and start networking I've been in infosec for 8 years without a degree and as long as you know wtf you're talking about (as is the case in many tech jobs), can admit when you don't know something, and can figure it out on your own you're fine.
Believe me, if I started murdering people, there would be none of you left.
'BS degree' says it all. Most of these posters have degrees so they don't really know what they are talking about when they say it's a requirement. It depends also on what you want to do. Many sys admins inherit the job and were once programmers (the best way IMO since you understand the systems you are managing). But much of the 'education' you can get at university is.. eh. Still that depends on if we are talking MIT or E. Buttfuck Community College. BOTTOM LINE: You need to know your stuff. You can do this at the library (or online) if you are committed. To that I would further that a HS degree is unnecessary. Has anyone ever asked you to prove you graduated HS? Most of it is BS, so why not dump public school and start studying on your own towards something practical? PS Consulted on Wall ST for years; no CS (or any) degree.
I started with a local ISP in sales and moved through helpdesk and am now managing the department and working as on-call sysadmin and engineer in training, the only thing stopping me from making the jump to full sysadmin/engineer is a lack of desire for that type of work, I prefer to work with the desk monkeys. I dropped out of community college and worked in construction, only ended up where I am due to an injury that took me out of the construction field. best thing that ever happened to me.
You're not going to land a senior level position making a ton of money without a college degree, but if you apply yourself, you'll find someone willing to hire you. You need to know a lot about what it is that you want to do, and you need to be willing to get paid dirt, and maybe get treated like it, for a while, too.
While you're at your dirt job, you'll meet people. Make sure to keep in touch with at least some of the good ones. They'll be future references for you, and are worth about 10x a college degree, give or take a few multiples.
Some places are snobby and will never hire you without a degree, period, end of story. I'd tend to avoid those kinds of places, anyway, though, because so many of the brightest engineers I know are degree-less. I've also interviewed candidates with degrees, for what was advertised as a senior-level software engineering role, who were unable to define basic computer science terms, such as binary tree, heap, hashing algorithm, class factory, etc.
I'm not the only person in the field who has made these observations, every time it's brought up, my colleagues agree with me. There's no substitute for a good interview process, and a degree doesn't even come close.
So I guess what I'm saying is that you need to study hard, be ready to answer tough questions, and persevere. You will find a job eventually. If you're smart, have initiative, and don't make mistakes, you'll rise fast.
Are you tied down to the city you're in? If not, consider moving to where the jobs are.
Seek and ye shall find. Those words are as true today as when they were first written. Good luck!
Depends on where you are, and what you want. In the UK - yes. I took on two junior sys admins straight out of school earlier this year. You'll need to either start with a junior position or have experience though. A degree really doesn't prove anything in IT, I value experience and knowledge far more.
College degrees are the new high school diplomas. If you didn't go to college, you're like a backwoods hick whose parents took him out of schooling early so he could chop wood and feed the pigs.
You're half right, college degrees are the new high school diplomas... they are completely worthless the instant you graduate.
As for the hick comment, you realize that the reason kids used to get pulled to do chores was because that's what their families needed to survive, right? Are you seriously making fun of poor, rural families or are you just not creative enough to come up with something better.
I bet you spent so much time becoming l33t in college that you don't even know how ignorant and offensive you sound to people educated in the real world.
Yes, it is very possible. I currently sysadmin three schools without a degree based largely on the fact that I knew enough about server 2003 and Active Directory to do so. Admittedly, yes, in total my job's not highly paid but I enjoy it, and the more time I can spend in the IT industry the more chance I have of 1. keeping my job or 2. getting a better job if I lose my current one.
The best advice I can give is to go out, seek yourself an MCSE/CCNA to prove you're willing to train, get some mildly interesting hobbies (something bizarre, it gets your CV noticed), and then the best place I found to apply for IT positions is in councils....they love new technology and constantly need new techies for someone's pet project.
No university degree for me, but I did study Software Engineering at a tertiary level and got a Diploma with merit (meaning a 90% pass or better). From there I spent over a year unemployed looking for work before starting at a small company selling PCs and doing tech support. We had some Netware customers, so I studied for and passed my CNE, then after another year studied for and passed my MCSE for Windows NT4, then have kept this current, my CNE is only up to Netware 5.1 however 8)
Now 15 years later I am a Consultant Engineer working for a NZ owned company, full time contracted to the Parliamentary Service, where I am part of a small team keeping the systems running for the organisation that provides all of the computing systems for the NZ Parliamentary Campus. We look after just under 200 servers, and 1500 clients (if you include all of the other agencies on the campus. I think I'm doing pretty well for "No Degree" 8)
I'm in the same boat as the article poster, in a similar manner.
/.
I couldn't really afford an ivy league 4 year college, and I had to leave community college before my first year was done due to an illness in the family. A few years later I went to a local trade school, that was accredited, in the tech and IT field. I learned a good deal, even though I knew a certain amount already of what they were teaching.
They offered a Associates Degree program you could do, after you graduated, online. This was not covered in your initial tuition cost or factored into any student loans you got, so if you wanted the degree program it would come straight out of your pocket. Long story short, I couldn't afford this program, still can't.
As for certifications, I trained in what they called the C.E.T program (computer electronics technology). Not really IT (that was a different class path) but focused on hardware repair, PC repair, etc basically all the shit you need to be the local tech support in an office or "The Geek Squad". So I could get by with just the A+ and if I really wanted to look good on paper, the Net+. On the plus side, I aced the course that taught you about the A+ cert, so I got a voucher for one-free attempt at taking the test (it's like what, $150-200 normally?) Needless to say I still have the voucher. Why? Well the A+ textbook they gave us to study is a huge book, and as the professor explained not all the stuff we covered in class and other classes would be on the A+. For example we stuck with Windows 2000 mainly as the OS of learning. We never covered XP, Server, etc which were the big thing at the time (2003-2004). So I never took the test. If I failed, I'm out the one and only free voucher. If I fail and attempt it later, that's money out of my pocket. Money I don't have, at all.
So after I graduate I got six months to find a job before I gotta start paying student loans back. The school had a job placement option which was practically guaranteed. They never found me a job. I looked myself. Locally all places want a degree, or 3-5 years experience even on Entry Level jobs.
4 years later I'm still unemployed, and my student loans that were $3,500 I owed in summer of 2003, are now over $15,000 due to interest rate and non payment.
Yea if it were bad enough a normal person would break down and take a shit job at Walmart or your local McDonalds. Sadly I am not able to stand on my feet for more than an hour or so without getting extreme pain in my lower back, ankles and feet. Not just pain that makes you think "damn this is sore, but I gotta tough it out for 8 hours then go home". It's pain that is like "holy fuck, if I don't sit down in a minute I feel like my bones in my feet are going to shatter". (Let's not get into seeing a doctor, that's something for a whole other discussion).
So while I could easily work say, an office IT/tech job where I'm not on my feet for 8 hours minus a lunch break, I can't fill store shelves at Walmart, even part time, without the absolute need to sit down and rest every hour or so.
Luckily I have family to fall back on, other wise I'd be homeless, starving and not posting on
I knew going in, degrees matter. Sure they don't really mean squat in the "real world" but when it comes to a job, the more good stuff you have about you on paper, matters. Sadly, I just could not afford to get a degree. Couldn't pay for it out of my pocket and couldn't get any more student loans at the time (long before my dues went from 3k to 15k).
Get a degree if you can. It's a hassle, it's just a piece of paper, but that piece of paper can make the difference between you saying "So, your cd rom drive is acting up?" and "Would you like fries with that?"
Aw Frell this
IT is all about the push of information throughout a company. Independent certifications are the only recourse unless you can show a firm understanding of the needs the corporation is seeking to fullfil. It is completely possible without degree ', ', and then again most people with degrees are as only functional as the education they received when they showed up for class.
With that in mind, I have not seen an overall implicit change based on my studies of a university system which promotes true informational technological changes that are desired by the faculty in the sense that implimentation is completely deficient in providing access on the level that is bias free.
While I have uncovered a desire for everyone to have full understanding of the informational systems available to them. It is typically that those who desire the information systems who truly communicate incorrectly with those who are capable of implementational research.
It is a situation which is close to a paradigm shift in the aspect of understanding when and who is capable of providing services needed for any corporation on a communicative basis as opposed to a "I sat through 4+ years of repetition to get a peice of paper with my name on it," therefore I understand more about those that have not.
If you're applying to a large corporation, you can pretty much forget even a help-desk job without an associate's or greater. But if you're willing to work your way up at a small- or medium-sized enterprise (SME) -- broadly defined as having 500 or fewer employees -- then you should be OK. Plus, working at a smaller firm will give you the opportunity to wear several hats and get a broader base of experience, where you'd probably be typecast at a larger place. :)
'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
How, praytell, do you get stuck at a phone support company? I realize there's not much moving UP, but can't you just look around for another job and simply leave?
College degrees are the new high school diplomas. If you didn't go to college, you're like a backwoods hick whose parents took him out of schooling early so he could chop wood and feed the pigs.
You're half right, college degrees are the new high school diplomas... they are completely worthless the instant you graduate.
As for the hick comment, you realize that the reason kids used to get pulled to do chores was because that's what their families needed to survive, right? Are you seriously making fun of poor, rural families or are you just not creative enough to come up with something better.
I bet you spent so much time becoming l33t in college that you don't even know how ignorant and offensive you sound to people educated in the real world.
Nice generality that isn't remotely correct. The value of the bachelor's degree depends on the choice of degree.
All Applied Sciences [Physics, Mathematics, Engineering, Chemistry, et.al] are highly valuable.
What companies would truly prefer are those highly technical backgrounds with natural self-motivators who also have innate marketability for themselves and their prospective employer. [especially for their prospective employer]
The one area that a University degree offers you over a straight up job is a wide spectrum of social networking contacts. You either see that, leverage it and build upon it or you don't. That part doesn't take a degree.
If you live near any higher education institutions I'd suggest socializing within those circles while you're working your way up. Go work for a University and you can get a massive discount on the cost of classes. That will help you figure out and continue building contacts. Don't plan on making it in 5 years, but build upon a goal for 10 to 15 years down the line.
I've been lurking on Slashdot for years too, and I registered an account to answer your question (without being an anonymous coward). The answer is absolutely yes. Here's the rub - you have to be bright/intelligent/good at what you do. Take a lower, entry level job, do a great job (volunteer for projects, find ways to improve process/documentation etc - without stepping on toes), and you'll rise. Talent gets noticed. I've been hugely successful, without a high school diploma, let alone a degree. I keep a very open mind when hiring (for my team) and I've been impressed by people without a lot of formal education, and very unimpressed with people who have degrees and certs falling out their... Of course the opposite holds true as well, my point is that intelligence and enthusiasm will win every time.
I do see your point and I do agree with it. Which is why I said it takes more dedication and willingness then the average person has. Just to clarify I'm not saying I'm one of those people as I am actively pursuing a degree.
My point is a college degree doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me". - stolen from Dan C alt.os.linux.slackware
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm.
Unless my math is off, you started during the dotcom years when they were looking for talent under every rock they could find, and it was generally accepted that web developers could be very young as the web wasn't many years old. There's always ways for the entrepreneuring individual, but I think you'll agree the market looks very different today.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
As someone who's tried this... not a prayer in hell.
If you have a bunch of certs (MSCE, A+, etc) you might have a shot, but even if you land something with those, you won't like the pay. They assume that since you're "underqualified", they can get away with paying you a pittance if they do hire you.
The job market for anyone without a degree (even a community college two year) is fucking miserable these days.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
Correct. I started my first gig about 6-8 months before the dot com implosion. It was no fun being told it was my mentor's last day, and I'd be assuming his position. Luckily, everything worked out for the best (he went on to get his CCIE and get a really sweet gig at a law firm), and we're good friends to this day.
Employers have a tendency to list in their ads their dream candidate, which is often far more restrictive than what they are actually willing to accept.
Sometimes this can be pretty funny. I saw a place once advertising in the LA Times for people with 5+ years of experience with Unix System V. The problem was that at the time, System V had only been available outside of AT&T for under a year. The only people with 5+ years of System V experience were its developers, at AT&T. Even if they were looking for jobs, they probably weren't looking in the LA Times.
I had a period once where I was out of work for something like six months. Right at the start, I saw a job that I seemed to be a good match for, except they said a Master's degree was a requirement, and I only have a Bachelor's. So I did not apply.
Six months later, they were still looking, and the head hunter I was then using sent my resume. Guess what? I got the job, and performed spectacularly. If the company had advertised more realistic requirements, they would have had me six months earlier, and without having to pay several thousand dollars to the head hunter.
I taught laptop repair for a major company with a mere GED in my possession.
Having done it since I was a kid and having had working references helps out.
It's mostly about the network of people you establish.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I am a Senior Service Engineer at Yahoo!.
I work on Y! Buzz (buzz.yahoo.com), the new Y! Front Page (m.www.yahoo.com), and My Yahoo! (my.yahoo.com).
I don't have a degree.
"To err is human, to forgive is simply not my policy." --root
Although a lot depends on your country (Im in the UK, I've heard its a lot harder in the US) and although I started over 10 years ago, when there were a lot less techies to go around, it is quite possible to get a good job, but you need to start at the bottom.
I left school at 16 with no qualifications, and started by getting a temp job in an IT company (EDS, as it happens) doing general office work, and was lucky to impress my boss with an interest in IT, from there I transferred into the desktop support team, and then went to another job doing desktop repair. From there, I got lucky and got a trainee Unix admin job at my local ISP.. BTW, these guys are a goldmine for learning *nix/networks, etc, and I would recommend applying to your local ISP from the off, if its a small-medium outfit, they are more likely to hire someone with enthusiam, although the pay will probably suck. After a couple of years of unix under my belt, I was set. Since then, I've worked for major corporates, and earned upwards of £100k a year for contract work.
However, a friend of mine took the university route, and has done very well out of it and a lot easier than I did. So I guess the upshot it yes, you can do it, but its easier with a degree..
As an interesting aside, my friends experience has mostly been very commercial, whereas mine has been mostly Open Source. I wonder if theres more than a coincidence there..?
I work as a Critical Response Engineer for EMC and I can vouch that it is possible to get a good computer job in IT without having a degree. The key thing is though that you will still have to prove yourself and that is likely to mean starting at the bottom somewhere. I started working help desks at IBM and gradually working my up from job to job so don't expect to just walk in on a good job :)
I was working as a musician before I decided to settle down and "grow up". I had only a diploma in music as a qualification. I have now worked my way up to Senior Developer with a great little company. I think that from my experience some companies are impressed by people who are self taught. It shows you have discipline to sit and learn unaided. My experience of developers who are straight out of University is that they may know lots of theory but ask them to complete a real world job quickly and they struggle.
Oh, uh, good question. Now technically speaking, uhh, let's say, put me down as a... 'Whatever'?
As someone who works for a very large multi-national corporation, i've noticed the following trends:
Large companies that have rigourous HR involvement almost always require some sort of Higher Ed or preferably degree, and not always because they think it will mean a better employee, it's just that it makes the interview process a lot easier for them, and helps them pre-select candidates that then move to dealing directly with the boss of the particular department that's hiring. When HR is involved, quite often they are a filter. This can be a complete roadblock in some cases.
Motivation and attitude count for everything, everything!, I couldn't stress this enough!
Smaller and even larger companies that more or less restrict HR involvment during the selection process will generally be a lot more receptive to skills and experience, especially if the person interviewing is also technically minded and you can demonstrate your keenness, and ability to work as productive member of a team. If your being interviewed by the actual department hiring, you stand a much better chance, as they aren't interested in dotting i's and checking boxes like HR, they just want results, which means if your experience or qualifications are a bit lacking, you have a chance to make up for that by exhibiting motivation and a willingness to learn on your own, (on your own is important).
Degrees, Batchelors, CCNA, etc, don't really matter quite to the extent that some people imply, while they are very valuable, and will certainly help get past early interview stages, and while a lack of them can be an obvious detriment, quite often being able to show continous studies even in various unrelated fields (myself electronics initially!) can really help open a door, but you might need to push it home as to what you can bring to the role and offer as value for the company.
I originally started out as a one day a week casual and over a period of 5 years ended up looking after the infrastructure for a number of departments, before moving through various roles including network engineer, senior sys admin, all within the same company. I'm now responsible for several ESX clusters, around 100 servers, as well as numerous other projects and support for within our own business unit as well as quite a few others. I achieved all this through sheer hard work, never complaining at the long hours, the stressful load, all the while training myself as most times we were too busy working on projects to take time off for training. Management notice these things and a good company will reward you well for it. Several others at work (who even started before me) have never advanced in the last ten years from when they first started, but that is entirely because of their attitude, management want people who are flexible, committed, and above all, capable.
Job != career. Google has entry-level jobs in the server rooms, and apart from that Google has careers for those with the experience, education and drive to take the company to new places.
Thirded! I, for one, am a Philosophy student, but a Linux/FLOSS hobbyist for a few years (had - and administered - my own home Debian server during most of those). Two years ago I got a job as a sysadmin at a small R&D lab at Warsaw University of Technology (yes, I still work there). Caveat 1: they've been looking for a student, degree in IT was not listed as a requirement. Caveat 2: I live in Poland, so YMMV.
If you're already experienced and have a good job in IT without a degree, great!
However, I've interviewed and worked with people with and without degrees. It may not be the case later on in your career, but early on you can tell the difference a mile away.
I have found that those with degrees have much greater ability to pick things up under their own steam, and the theoretical knowledge is more helpful than you'd imagine because it means that you spend less time guessing what a problem is and more time being able to work it out properly.
It may be tempting in the current economy to get a job and so avoid all the debt that accompanies a degree - but the recession won't last forever, and while it's going on you'll be competing for work with a lot of people with far greater qualifications who may well be prepared to drop their salary expectations just to get food on the table. To my thinking, sitting out a recession in college is a very smart move. You're not seriously looking for work in your chosen profession at a time where there is little work to be found, and with any luck the economy will be recovering when you graduate and you'll find a job that much more easily.
sure you can get in without a degree. i've been a solaris operator/tape monkey, then support engineer, then Unix SA in the 4 years since i dropped out of the first year of unversity.
to be honest, my course was a waste of time, and some professors really did subscribe to the "those who can't, teach." with some of them not really connected to the real world having been in academia for so long.
pretty much all companies i've worked for have valued expirience over school/university qualifications. industry qualifications being valued most of all.
except microsoft certifications.... those it seems are generally regarded as things you get free with your breakfast cereal, as almost every IT monkey has a list of useless MCSE's as long as your arm.
one company i worked for (veritas, before it got eaten by symantec) even hired an ex-hotel manager with no previous I.T. skills to join one of the teams. they put him through the mill learning everything from "this is a computer" to doing his Sun solaris SA's, and learning their product line. 6 months he was ready and an effective BOFH. his only skill he brought in was that he was a fluent German speaker. so, one idea is to learn a 2nd or 3rd language if you want to stand out skill wise in IT.
TBH, most SA's aren't SA's straight out of University, unless it is their own startup, or daddy's company. they still have to work their way up the ladder, and show some affinity with being an SA.
dropping out of year one just put me three to five years ahead of those that actually completed their degree course.
just be prepeared to start at the bottom and work your way up if you have to.
going to Uni isn't garanteed to land you the perfect job as soon as to set foot outside of student halls. you just gotta fight a little harder to get your foot on the ladder.
anyway, thats where i'm comming from, and my general expirience...
Who's gonna hire you if you're the kind of person who did phone support?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
If you don't have a degree then you really need to get trained and experience within a company. A move to another company will put you back at square one.
As with every other profession, having a degree or not is quite decoupled from being good at your profession or not. However, we IT people still have one huge advantage: Information Technology is advancing so fast, it is almost easyer being up to date without a degree. I studied a semester of CS a year ago. We were wasting our time learning with tools from the early 90ies, including a Windows 95 diagramm tool that nobody in the real world would ever use nowadays.
The speedy advancement in IT and the large gap it often causes between academic eduzcation and reality are large enough for even the one or other HR deptartment to notice that a degree in IT doesn't really matter that much.
If you are *interested* in studying CS (including Math 1 through 4 and basic economy) and you are young enough to do it (read: haven't started a career yet), then do it. If you don't know if you'll like it, try it out. Do a semester and then take it from there. Either drop out or pull through and specialize. Do not study CS simply for a career opportunity.
If you are positive that you mostly hate studying CS or racking up the dept for doing it, then don't do it. Focus on the IT field you're interested in, get some internships and small projects and join an OSS project. Your initial salary will be lower at the begining of your career, but listening to my team lead ragging about his tour de fource to a MSC in CS (during a time in which the first degree was still free in Germany) lets me suspect you'll have more fun getting there.
I have a diploma in performing arts (ergo: completely unrelated) 22 years of computing and programming experience and have gotten my current job based on my skills and not a degree. It is possible and happens far more often than in other, more entrenched fields.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
i am currently in a quite decent job, as a web developer, i have no degree at all. i found it difficult at first to get a job without experiance, but even with a degree, that would have been the same, as everyone was looking for commercial experiance.
once i got a years commercial experiance, i found it so simple to get a better job, and then into the job i am in now it was unreal.
all you need is commercial experiance, or to say you have. and your goood.
portfolio
I would comment that there are 3 essentials for any profession, including IT. They are; 1) Skill, 2) Reputation, 3) Education. If you are lacking in any of these, then eventually you will "hit a ceiling" with your chosen career. We have all seen folks that have two, but not all three of these. Examples: - a person has the highest of skills and works great with others (reputation), but lacks a degree. They will always be the last person hired, and usually the first person let go from a company. - a person can have a degree, but lack skills, although they are well liked by others. They fail from lack of ability. - a person can have a degree and skills, but be such a miserable jerk that no one wants to work with them. They are also eventually let go from the high cost of the personal problems they cause at work. I recommend you sign up for school and at least put on your resume "currently enrolled in "xx" school, working toward a degree in Computer Sci.
You will get 150K answers to this. The short of it is, speaking as someone who has been in the biz for 20 years, the degree only matters if you are being hired by someone who has one.
And that's all that needs to be said about it.
I didn't read the list of replies. The follow is all my personal experience. In my senior year of high school I was hired by the BOE as a student worker doing IT. From there the next IT job I got was for a consulting firm doing general tech/setup/cabling/etc.. From there I was hired as an admin for a medical office who was a previous client of the consulting firm. I am currently a co-sys admin for a company that does IT and telecom, and am in a position to eventually run the IT side. We do installs, admin, tech support, cabling etc.. I will say that I have, however, been extremely lucky. The BOE job was on a recommendation of a teacher (who was the tech guy at that school) who saw that I knew PCs and got me in. The consulting firm job was from a chance encounter while I was working retail (at radioshack) discussing VPN to the owner. The admin position at the medical firm was because they knew me from the consulting firm and knew I could handle it. Finally, the current position was a lucky encounter with the IT admin (and partner) of the company. I had just started my own business doing IT, and was looking at taking a client in a building where he was doing IT for another company. I'm 27, and had one year of college. It IS entirely possible to get a good IT job, and a position such as sysadmin without a degree, it just takes some luck, skills, knowledge, and a few connections.
I am one of those people who work an IT job without a degree. My duties include normal help desk stuff for our office of about 30 workers, otherwise I am working on our new dispatching client which is written in Java. I have now been a full-time Java programmer for a little over a year. I doubt I could get hired at another company at this point, possibly after 3-5 years experience.
The way I came about my position was from being hired from within the company. Admittedly I was low balled on pay but that is being fixed. Starting pay was about $23k a year, although then I was just doing web developing and help desk. Its been about two years since then and I make about $25k a year now all hourly. In a month or two I'll be getting promoted to making some where around $35k. Personally I think that's pretty damn good for being a high-school drop out.
The point to keep in mind is I work in a rather unique place. We are a worker owned and operated cooperative under a democratic structure. This is what kept me despite the low pay. I've also served on the Board of Directors and several committees.
The story of my father:
My father on the other hand gave a go at two-year college, but then I happened so he had to drop out and get a real job. The real job turned out to be a pascal programmer. From there he moved up the ranks and jobs and now works for the local four-year university.
Given all of that I still plan to go to college, but instead of comp sci I was going to go electrical engineer.
So lesson learned unless you like getting low balled and otherwise taken advantage of, get your degree. Not that will guarantee that doesn't happen.
IMAGE VERIFICATION IS EVIL!
It is important to understand that IT professionals are distinctly different from computer scientists (although even the latter do not know the difference these days). One applies what is yielded from the work of the other (figure out who's who). For instance, an IT professional may know how to implement a netfilter traffic policing scheme based on independent research (even through a simple glance at the man pages) and/or knowledge garnered through professional studies. However, he/she will not know the intricate mathematics that ensure performance levels or robustness. They may not even know how to write userspace components for netfilter. Yet, they can serve as a network security 'specialist' in an organization. The difference between IT professionals and computer scientists need to be recognized, understood and respected. The lack of this respect has led many organizations to hire IT professionals where they should be looking for computer scientists. This is a problem. It is a problem that will lead to both the demise of an employment market as well as cutting edge ventures in computing. IT professionals should stop deluding themselves into thinking that they are computer scientists. Just because one knows how to code in C# doesn't mean he/she has Donald Knuth's insights (or that of Ray Kurzweil, Michael Abrash, Gordon Moore, Leonard Adleman, Bill Joy, etc)
For the past 9 years I've worked as the Technology Coordinator for a small all-girls school in PA. I had no degree (only a few certs), but I was hired for my experience in networking. The school was using teachers to do the job (poorly) previously. I presented myself well at the interviews and even gave them a prepared list of things that needed the most help on the second interview - that really impressed them!
I took a big drop in salary, but I live on campus for free, eat free, and have been able to save money as well. I was able to weather the dot-com crash, where I watched every single one of my friends in this business lose their jobs, their businesses, or worse. In short, I'm needed here no matter what the economy does - as long as we have students of course!
The best thing about this job is that, for the most part, the people are terrific to work with and everyday I see the improvements to the school that I was responsible for.
It's an unusual situation, and probably not for everyone, but for me it was ideal.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
I did it.
I'd have to say this depends on who's looking for a job and what country your looking for a job in. There's nations like Belgium where its returning that instead of paper credentials being interviewed and evaluated, the person is. I have no official degree, although I do either have licences or had formal training from Microsoft, Cisco, Lucent, Avaya, Bay, Remedy and a crapload of others. Although I have those credentials, I also have one major disadvantage compared to most of the other people, in being that I've been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome. And with that have some major quirks and minor annoyances. But turns out my caracter and personality, in combination with a massive IQ (yeah get over it, I'm officially handicapted, so I'm allowed to brag about something nature DID give me) and the lucky fact that my Aspergers Induced limited interrests field is wholly focussed on IT and datacommunications. So, to summarize, If you make sure you got some training and licences to show of, so that you can get your foot in the door, and then are able to convince your skills are up to spec, a degree isn't needed. If you don't have training and even if you do, can't make it so that people know your know your shit by just talking to you, don't even bother. I guess thats one other advantage for me. Being a geek seems to ooze from my very being and when I come before someone they only need a minute to know I know my shit.
First you need to know if you have an aptitude for it, are you better than some people you work with? half the people? or 90% of the people you work with? You'll need to be good, there's no point pursuing this course if you're not any good.
Start low and work your way up, you'll find out soon how good you are. Start on a helpdesk, and don't spend too long there. Then move on to desktop support and/or sys admin work. From there the world is your oyster (networks/dev/management) - I've pursued this course and am now a developer after 7 years of this path. I'm not great with the math side of it, but I have a colleague we call 'rainman' who does all the deep math while I just stick to good architecture and design principles. Rainman can't communicate for crap, so that's where I come in, I'm the buffer between the genius and the rest of the world. You don't need a degree for that.
If you've got a good attitude and an aptitude for technology/programming/software/problems you'll go further and earn more than most of the negative 'genius' posters on this thread, why? Because you can still have a positive social attitude, and to a profitable forward thinking company that's worth 3 brilliant socially inept techies, all of whom who will need to be lead by someone with good social skills.
I have several friends, peers and colleagues that work in the sysadmin/networking field that do not have degrees (a couple do not even have high school diplomas), and they all do quite well for themselves as far as salaries go.
Like many other people, I view IT as more of a trade. I would much rather hire the person who started working right out of high school with 4 years of experience under his belt than the newly minted BSc with none. Of course, it would all come down to the technical interview, but the trend that I have noticed is that those without the degrees tend to be more "self starters" and capable of learning and researching on their own.
Now don't get me wrong, a degree doesn't hurt. It will definitely open up many doors for you, but if you are seriously looking to get into IT, experience trumps all. Hard work, determination, initiative... these are all the keys to a successful career in IT, imo.
As for myself, I've never had any formal CS or IT training, nor do I have a college degree. Everything I knew, I learned from a book that I bought so I could build a computer to play Doom with on a LAN. After getting out of the Marines in 2001, I took my meager Doom knowledge and landed myself an entry level help desk position making $12/hour. Now, I'm a Network Architect making over 6 figures a year and I work from home 95% of the time. I still don't have a degree, but now I'm back in school, and I have the time and money to get a degree in a subject that I'm actually interested in and not having to worry about making money with it to put food on the table.
But you damn well better have your certifications in line, and some experience under your belt. I really dont get where this idea of EVERY job needs a degree to function came from. I would easily say that a good 60% of jobs out there SHOULD be done by people without higher ed experience. Leave higher end for who it matters for, science/math geeks, buisness jerks, and fine arts. IT is a trade job for all purposes, I know a lot of IT people who really had that designation but its true, as a person WITH a degree in technology and currently in IT, I see no reason to surgar coat the simple fact that we are 21 century plumbers and electricians.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
If you live in the United States, you need a degree.
If you live in Europe, for the most part, you don't for an IT job, but you will for a software development job. "IT" is really a trade like plumbing. You don't need a degree to pull cat5 cables, fix broken printers, or write shell scripts to automate various repetitive jobs, just intelligence and experience.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
In the long term a trend will be that more sysadmin positions will be open to those without degrees, but still limited. The FLSA has set descriptions of Exempt/NonExempt work tasks. Sysadmin is basically a non exempt job until you get into sys admin leadership positions or higher levels of experience and knowledge. Most people with degrees would not want a non-exempt job. [current economic times will override this]. Your best bet is to get into the door and start with hardware support or helpdesk.
Depends on the company you do phone support with. If its scripted, then yeah, you will learn very, very little. I currently work in an unscripted phone support dept, looking after clients that contract us to care for their servers and desktop kit. For some clients we essentially provide a full sys-admin service, all given by myself and the other guys on the phones. This said, it is a PITA to get out of, I've been doing it for three and a bit years now and am having a hard time finding something to move onto from here.
I worked in the IT field for 8 years before moving. When looking for a job after moving, I was willing to take a wide variety. I applied for a front-line tech support position, and was denied to be considered because I didn't have a degree in CS. I had done support my first year out of college (I got a non-technical degree). I since moved on to other things, had my MCSE and CCNA and such at the time. And with 8 years experience and an MCSE, the HR department refused to forward on the application to the hiring department because it didn't meet the minimum requirements. That's why it's required. So many places will not even consider you without it, and there's nothing you could do to change their minds because the people making the initial filtering selections have no idea what is required for the position, nor what the words on a resume mean.
However, I'm still working in IT 5+ years after that, and have been working in a variety of fields (with specific expertise that well exceeds any that can be gained in college). I went back and got an MBA as well, so whenever I get tired of working for a living, I can move into management (I've had management-level positions and supervised people, but have avoided taking the actual management positions because that's not my personal preference now). If that ever occurs, I will have worked my way up from the begining ($20k per year crap support job) through varying technical positions into management wihout ever having a degree in anything technical. So it isn't necessary to succeed. However, it is quite hard to take that path, because even now when I look at positions, people seem to expect a technical degree.
Learn to love Alaska
I was amazed at first by the negative attitude of most posts here. But then, I am in Silicon Valley and the mileage of those elsewhere probably varies...
I've known many sysadmins with no degree (indeed I WAS one of them until I graduated earlier this year). In many ways, Silicon Valley is a meritocracy and having the skill is sufficient qualification for many IT positions. That said, not having a degree definitely makes the candidate less credible and less likely to get pass the first filter (i.e. the HR/recruiting types).
As many have noted, the progression to sysadmin-ness without college means more work--like via phone support or similar in conjunction with classes or certifications (though certifications are never enough on their own). It's very doable, but it may be easier to get an AS through your local community college in something related.
Speaking of, I can't emphasize the community colleges enough. Here in California, they're awesome (and they were none too bad in the Phoenix area where I grew up, either). If you're hitting a brick wall in the search for an IT job in your area, that may be the path of least resistance to bridge the gap.
As for requirements listed on job postings, I tend to take them with a grain of salt. If you think you can do the job, then apply (just don't invest too emotionally and keep looking).
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
I feel am able to comment on this.
Firstly, if you do get a degree it can be useful. If you have the time do it, and you will have fun too.
However, as a network manager (having done my fair share of grunt work on the way) I knew of a person at the local LUG who was looking for a job, without any formal qualifications. I needed help, so I hired him, on a reasonable wage (ie not far off a full permie) and now he is loving it. He is hard working, enthusiastic, and doesn't mind the crappy jobs so much. He is learning on the job.
The thing is, you need to find someone who is looking for you. Thats the issue. It's about building networks, and these networks can open doors that you just couldn't open by yourself. ie If I had not met this guy through the lug, then I wouldn't have offered him a job if he called on the off chance.
Just my two pence worth.
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
However, when the add says something like "a degree will be advantageous" it means IT pro's without degrees could apply and (hopefully) they will be evaluated based on metrics like experience and perhaps some other certifications.
Example: For a Linux sysadmin job, a RHCE certification with some experience could do. But, if this sysadmin has to also run a department or a group of sysadmins, a degree qualified individual would probably have a better change in landing the job.
Personally, I do not have a degree and I work in a Sysadmin/DBA/Developer role. I was lucky - timing was perfect etc. But - the company owns me. I basically can not go outside and perform the same line of work for the salary I get now without a degree. So, in order for me to position myself better (especially in the light of possibly some tough times ahead), I have decided to do a degree from next year. I can just hope I am not too late :-)
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This is just my experience, yours may differ in mileage. I was home schooled and very badly home schooled at that, so f**k off grammar/spelling Nazi. I fallowed this up with a GED and I have interviewed for many sysadmin jobs and I have held 3 sysadmin jobs. Being I don't have a (professional) look, I tend not to get the good jobs. Right now I am very happy as a Datacetner Operations Tech (mmm server monkey) however, I have been a sysadmin and even run my own small hosting company (very small these days). In the first job, I had to work UP to the Systems Admin position in the company, this took me nearly 8 months to just prove my worth(mm night shift) and 2 more months to start moving up the food chain. After you get that first 1yr+ of "Systems Administrator" down, you can then start putting your resume out their and move into a better paying more official sysadmin job. in my case I hunted down a small Hosting provider where I would get crappy pay but be able to move up by proving my self. Find Your Path, Make Your Self Pretty (Professional) and Attack. Mid Range Systems Admin Jobs are 3 Percent Skill, 95 Percent Self Sales and 2 Percent Ass Kissing.
If you are naturally a computer person then a degree is optional for you in your IT career since your experience and skills will speak a lot better as to your ability to do useful work for a company. If you have the knack for computers then you will be able to go a long way just on that alone. Many of today's computer degree programs focus on theoretical knowledge and seem like they are designed for people more interested in the science part of technology such as algorithm design and computational design work and not for systems administration or engineering skills.
If you are looking to be a systems administrator then you really need relevant experience for the systems that you are going to be administrating. That means that if you are going to work with vendor's server operating system you should be an expert on that vendor's desktop system. The skills that you learn hacking away at your desktop dealing with issues leads directly into the role of administrating server operating systems.
One thing that many people scoff at is vendor certifications but I personally feel that they are a good alternative to degree coursework. The certification training teaches you the very specific knowledge required to use and manage vendor hardware and software so that you become familiar with the vendor's design principles, implementation of those principles, installation, management, and troubleshooting of the system that you are being certified in. Many folks look down on certifications since they only think of them as a piece of paper and a title but the training for the certification is the important thing because it gives you very relevant skills for that vendor's product. That training is a lot more useful and relevant to an employer and yourself when working with a specific product in your job because it teaches you how to do things exactly the way that the vendor planned. This is an important thing to know since many vendors use very strange ways of doing simple things. Degree coursework in a college only teaches you the theoretical and this knowledge, while very deep, is far too distant from a particular implementation and it takes a lot to transfer to actual useful knowledge.
I am sure that many people will with disagree with me about the value of certification and recommend a degree program instead but everyone is welcome to their own opinion.
A previous poster on this thread mentioned that systems administration should be an apprenticeship based program versus a computer science degree type program and I wholeheartedly agree. The skills required to deal with daily operations and troubleshooting of computer systems is mostly based on experience and training with a particular implementation more than deep knowledge of generalized theoretical ideology. It is much more valuable to know how a vendor implemented the debugging procedure in a system than to know the basis for a debugging in systems design when you are the one responsible for fixing a problem that is happening right now with a critical production system.
I as an example started as a computer kid upgrading his Tandy in elementary school and playing computer games in high school to end up working as a computer repair guy in a retail store fixing problems with people's personal computers and installing upgrades for them. It was a logical career progression after dropping out of an unchallenging high school program. Do what comes naturally to you and you will always be paid well. The retailer had a requirement for certain number of certified technicians to work in the department so that they could advertise it so the company put me on the track to taking the first desktop hardware certification. I read the certification book and learned a few interesting facts that I never knew about systems then did the test which was not difficult since the practice at the repair shot and study of the materials paid off. I later studied and earned certifications for most of the other equipment that was being repaired there for e
Not having a degree will not hold you back. Speaking from 20 years experience in the IT industry. But don't expect to jump into that plumb job even if you do have a degree.
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
Smaller companies have, in the past, emulated this behavior. However, as time has passed, as a way to gain a competitive edge, more and more have begun to take long, hard looks at un-degreed candidates for a couple of reasons:
The lower pay level is temporary, so don't go thinking that just because you don't have a degree, you're gonna get jizzed for the rest of your life. Non-degreed employees experience an initial loss of income, but over time, likely within 5 or 10 years, the value of experience plus your own ability to negotiate your employment contracts will normalize your income.
Myself, I don't have a degree, and I've held lead developer and system administrator jobs that have paid me competitive rates. I'm now the owner of a small development shop, and the lack of college degree doesn't matter one bit. My advice, if you're going to roll without a degree, is to not stop looking for that first, entry-level job, and to work your ass off at it. Put in extra hours, be a fucking superstar, and put on as many hats as you can. If you're a developer, learn systems stuff. If you're a systems guy, learn to do development, or design, or SOMETHING. Without a degree, you are your major selling point, and the more you know how to do, the more attractive you are to employers.
This is said many times.. but as someone who have only high school, and work in IT, i feel like i need to reply. ... self-taught people vs degree people.
And, btw, I think this discussion is
So my post, as well as those above me, will sound biased.
First of all ... why degree ? I look at it this way.
If I interview sys admin for a job, I'll judge his character and his knowledge. Why ? Because I'm sys admin from age of 16, literally. I hang out with sys admins, developers, and other IT people for 7 years now. I know them, how they think, and what they can do.
I don't need a paper saying he can learn, or he's smart, or whatever... If I want to test his knowledge, or improvising or other skills, I'll assign him a task, and see how he will do it, in what timeframe, etc.
The problem is, people who are hiring, obviously lack skills to determine that, so they need a paper that proves they can.
Another thing, all the people I know are self taught. Maybe thats because my country doesn't have a CS school, but anyway, the people Im talking about, programmed in assembler when they where 14, now, they develop apps in 10 languages, whatever you ask them to do. From C,C++,VB,php,java, .. etc. Some of them do only php, some of them do only C, but they have a job for years now, and they are doing really well.
Why won't you hire that guy ? I know I would.
Self-taught people ARE self-taught because they liked all that things. They loved it ... I skipped from school, so I can get home earlier and mess around on my freshly installed Linux when I was 13 years old. I'm sorry, but the amount of energy people like me put into all this, can beat every degree. I'm not in this for money, I'm in this because I am this.
Of course, there are CS people like me, who eventually went to college and got degree.. so Im not saying having a degree is bad thing.
The reality is, If you have a degree, you will find a job 10x easier. But that shouldn't work that way. Not in IT.
And reply to parent, you can always find job online. And work from home as a sys admin/developer. IMHO, that's even better then sitting in the office 8h/day. I know people that have families, and work that way, not because they can't get a job, but because they like it that way. So you might consider finding a job that you can do from your home. No degree neccesary.
You can do it without a degree - but it'll take much longer to get there. I don't have a degree, nor do I have any certifications - yet I'm moderately successful. I have no desire to be a manager - so I was hired despite the lack of a degree (because I'm not a threat) I worked my way up through the years (I'm 56) while others with degrees have lagged. I'm successful because I work hard and I know my stuff. The degree is a foot in the door - without it you've got to work for years to establish that. Once in the door tho', you'll meet different kinds of resistance depending on how the powers that be view the need for a degree.
Unfortunately the world is run by people who are so stupid and dense they actually have to pay people to supplement their pathetic learning skills. Universities and Colleges prey upon these hapless halfwits, take all their money and give them pieces of paper that can replace having actual job skills or a brain. They aren't so good at giving out hearts, courage or rides home but the principal is the same.
Since most people in senior management have suffered this type of learning disability their whole lives they can't even imagine someone capable of learning on their own. They will never trust this strange power some people seem to have to read documentation, play around with things and gain new skills.
Now a person like me with no credentials at all (except some product courses) has to wait until one of these mental defectives screws up really badly and management has to bring me in to fix the mess. Then I get my chance to show my superior skills.
All this would have been much easier if I had a magic piece of paper because the first person I have to get past is usually an HR person and they are very rarely capable of understanding most of what's on my resume. I generally don't even see resumes without degrees when I'm doing my hiring because the HR moron strains them out. Even though I'm biased against people who wasted all that time and money in school I rarely hire someone without those credentials.
I should also mention that it's a crappy job. Best case scenario you end up working for some scum bag corporation like me and being part of the problem with this world. You can be a consultant but then you spend all your time selling garbage..usually this is self promotion.
The idiot who fucked up the systems in the first place usually makes more money than I do for fixing their mess.
The school system, custodian of print culture, has no place for the rugged individual. It is, indeed, the homogenizing hopper into which we toss our integral tots for processing. -Professor Marshall McLuhan
Yes as I am living proof, but I worked my way up from being a Operator (Tape Monkey as we were called then) to being an Oracle and SQL Server Database Admin earning £44K in the UK. I dont even have any computing qualifications, except for course certificate for which I never took any examinations. You just need a lucky break, and also, its not what you know but who you know that can get you in the door.
I find it interesting that every post I read that says 'no degree' emphatically is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes.
Can you get a job with no degree? Sure. Can you get a good job? It's not likely, but still possible. Can you get a good and well-paying job? I seriously doubt it.
Unless you are absolutely amazing with a computer (and if you were, you wouldn't be asking this question because you'd already be working) then don't expect to get a decent job with no experience and no degree.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Get the paper.
The key to getting a job is getting an interview.
The decision on who to interview is most often made by the clueless (HR) who rely on the presence of "paper" to qualify you.
When you're first starting out, it's very important to have that degree to get your foot in the door. Without having the degree it can be difficult. But the ironic thing is that technology changes fast enough that the degree very quickly becomes irrelevant. This is especially true when it comes to system administration. Even those "schools" (ITT, DeVry, etc) that offer general IT/Sysadmin "degrees" have a very difficult time keeping up with industry trends. After about 5 years of working in IT, nobody will care about your B.S. degree (or Associates). Now if you're working on a Masters, Ph.D., or MBA, that's a different story.
But if you can break into the market without a degree and get those first few years of experience you absolutely can work yourself up to a good IT job. Remember, after 5 years in the workforce your experience will be comparable to everyone else's and their degrees will be outdated. Just don't expect to come in as a sysadmin from day one. You'll probably have to start at the helpdesk/PC tech level, then work your way up to a junior admin, and so on. I don't have a degree but after several years of hard work and continued learning I'm just shy of a six-figure income in a city where the median individual income is about $32k.
Find yourself a good recruiter/head hunter, and if you have the right experience and a well written resume, you can get a great job. My degree is in Illustration, but I'm certified MCSE, A+, Network +, and a few others, all along with having over eight years of experience in the field. That was enough to land me my current job recently via a recruiter. I think it all depends on how you present yourself and how much experience you have, as well as going through the right channels.
WWJD? (What Would Jonas Do? - Spinward Fringe by Ran
Getting hired comes down to two things:
1) Do you rock at what you do?
2) Does everyone know it?
A degree simply provides evidence that you have a clue about what you're doing, nothing more. Same for certifications. But neither are substitutes for actually kicking ass and getting caught taking names.
If you can demonstrate you're awesome at what you do, you'll get hired. If not, no degree or certification in the world will help you.
---
"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
You have to get yourself out there like a good IT company. You do it by word of mouth, and advertising when you want to reach some new people. Experience goes a long way in IT, but you've got to be able to demonstrate a progression. The more success you can show, the more employers are willing to realign their criteria when looking at your resume. You have to be good at what you do, as your record will reflect that. If you're very good, your formal education won't matter, but you've got to have real world success to compansate for that. You can't walk in and say, "I've got a GED and I like computers...also I can run scripts." You need to be able to demonstrate that experience. You get it through hobby and work. You probably need more of both though than your college educated counterparts.
A good friend of mine works as a sysadmin for a large company you know well. He's recently moved here (Switzerland) from the UK, as have I. He has no degree, I have a BSc, an MSc, a PhD, and about 7 years more experience. He earns a bit more than twice what I do. So no, having a degree is not necessary. I'd be jealous, but as a scientist my job is more like a an obsessive hobby I get paid for anyway.
I've been in IT for almost 15 years now. No degree. I started college, found it slow and a waste of money, so applied my efforts instead to jumpstarting my career.
My first job in the industry was not in IT. It was in testing. But I made sure to volunteer for projects that involved key concepts that a sysadmin would need to demonstrate competency in. While other guys my age were fighting over jobs testing video games, I was testing various network products (hubs and routers, mostly, and other device types that have faded into obscurity since). And while all of the sysadmins were fighting over Novell jobs, I was testing this new product called Windows NT that nobody expected to be taken seriously.
The Novell guys had been so smug in their superiority and discounted the possibility of NT gaining a foothold in the market place that a great opportunity opened up for me within a year or two of my first job. I already had a couple of years of NT experience (granted, in a lab setting) while these Novell guys were struggling to catch up.
Over the years I've had to jump from one keystone technology to another. Along with Windows NT, I made a fair bit of coin on OS/2. Later I did some Solaris but for the last 10 years I've been doing really well on Linux. This run has been a good run, but I'll be keeping my eyes open for other opportunities. I don't want to be like those unemployed Novell CNA's in the mid-late 1990's.
So get your foot in the door with a more menial job. Do anything you have to do to learn the technologies and skills needed for system administration. Help desk work is often a great way to enter the system administration field. But once you're in, there is no time to rest. You have to keep learning, stay competitive, and be ready to jump to a different core technology as your major strength if you sense the winds changing direction.
Go into sales ;-)
We are all packets in the Internet of life!
It just means you'll have to start at the bottom if you don't have any previous work experience in the field. I know a number of people in sysadmin jobs who don't have any sort of degree, but they generally started at the bottom and worked their way up.
Many of the best IT people I know have no school past high school.
Some of the worst people in IT I know have a CS degree.
Certs on show you can pass the test
It all comes down to experience.
I would get your resume out to about 10 to 15 recruiters that do contract only stuff.
Take them to lunch, get to know them, let them get to know you.
Find a small non profit that needs help, and volunteer your skill with them
put them on your resume.
Your going to be cheap for the first few years then as your skills show themselves
your pay will jump.
-- I am the NRA, enough said...
I'm an example of it. I've sat in all of the chairs in various IT Department sizes and I don't have my BS or BA in anything. Although I do still wish to pursue it as a personal goal and not so much as a career builder. I have obtained some certifications that I felt were worthwhile (CISSP and CISA) but haven't gone the pure vendor specific cert route.
Just to set the reality of my statement; I was the CTO and architect of the Shipyard in Philadelphia and held other V/C Level titles as well. In my current life 'phase' I chose to prioritize quality of life over bucks. Plus I like doing 'pure' engineering work and actually working with the technologies as much (if not more) than the management side of IT.
I do not have a degree. I bring home a nice salary and live in a big house and support a family. I do, however, have Microsoft certification. That's what gets me in the door, past the HR filters.
What gets you and keeps you a job is being good at it. There are a lot of people out there who picked IT as a career out of a hat. I chose it for myself, because it's what I love to do. When you love to do something, you're going to be dedicated to it, and always thinking about how to do it better.
Oh, I'm almost forty, too, and I've noticed that there's definitely a maturity benefit that I have over my colleagues in their early 20s. I tend to consider what the business needs, and how technology can meet that need, as opposed to implementing things because they're awesome. I view everyone as my customer, even the other people on my team, not as "those fuckers from UNIX."
Love what you do, get certs, rise above office politics, learn to see the big picture, and be in the right place at the right time. Without any one of those things, you're definitely going to need a degree.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
I would always recommend a degree. You do pay for a degree; however, money is not the only currency. Your time is also required. People always like to bring up Bill Gates. He is an anomaly. You aren't Bill Gates. Being Bill Gates doesn't mean being as smart as he. He is bright, ambitious, and extremely lucky (AKA in the right place at the right time). If you were as lucky as he, then you wouldn't be asking /. about this.
I have met two more than competent software engineers guys that didn't have a degree. Both of them say that no degree closes a lot of doors.
For example, one gentleman worked for MS. He could only get in the door by working for a contracting company; he worked for Boeing in the same manner. Neither company would even talk to him.
The other gentleman that I know worked his way up during the dotcom boom. At that time there was such a shortage of IT workers that he was picked up. He showed talent and he survived the bust. He is different than most non-degree guys; he actually learned CS on his own. His studies didn't cover 100% of a CS degree; however, it was pretty close. He read a lot of pure theory books and was a true autodidact.
I obviously recommend getting the degree; it was a lot of fun. If you don't find it enjoyable, then you don't need to be working in the field. (NOTE: I do understand that you are asking about a sysadmin job; however, I do believe that my experiences apply there too.)
I don't have a degree and I've been working for years, but I've had (and still have) my share of trouble. Many companies said that they were impressed with my resume but they simply won't hire me because I don't have a proper degree. In the end, it turned out fine because the places that accepted me seemed to be a lot more open and friendly and they recommended me to get a degree and insisted that they don't mind but it will help me in the future.
It is possible, you can get more decent jobs (with same or even better pay) without one, but everyone recommended me to get my degree.
I didn't finish my degree and I have a high level, well paying IT job, but I've also been in the industry for 15 years. "Back in the day", when computers were more for geeks and hobbyists, it was much easier to learn and work and you were hired because you had the knowledge and the experience. Keeping up certifications and not letting my skills get rusty have kept me secure. Starting out fresh, though? Right now, most of us IT folk are a dime a dozen, and even if you have a degree in underwater basket weaving, it's going to win out over no degree.
Baseless self confidence kills more people each year than bathtubs.
You might be able to do something with programming if you had a very impressive portfolio, which is an area where open-source projects can come in handy. This holds true for similar positions where portfolios can apply.
But there are some IT careers where you just can't build a portfolio. How would you do such a thing, for example, doing sysadmin work? In these cases, a degree is probably your best option.
I do computer penetration testing for a living. Imho I know a lot about everything computer related and I do full scale pen tests. I'm a freelancer and I'm 16 tho so things are kinda hard (a "hacker" job is not easy to find when you're underage). I find most certifications in the field silly (especially some considered "elite" like CEH and other) just because they're so lame. Imho it really deppends on what you really want to do... If you want to hack into networks, overflow and fuzz stuff for money you don't need "hacker" education but rather (woah) leet skills... Giving presentations, having publications etc is what you need to be "famous" and thus have companies accept you and your work easier...
I can easily confirm one can work in the IT industry without a degree. However, the difference in pay can be staggering, especially when you see your advancement path... More than likely, you'll have to start in one or two areas: Tech Support or Software Testing. I can't say for sure, but seems like most people who enter tech support are doomed to stay in is black bowls (though Im sure some escape). Software testing is a fairly dull job most places. You often simply follow a set of test scripts, and raise PR's as needed. However, most places use some form of automation (Rational Robot), so there is a chance you would have the ability to branch into coding easily enough. If you're lucky, you might get a junior position as a coder in a year. Heck, most test groups have their own servers to maintain, and you could "get stuck" adminning them (which sounds up you're alley). However, sticking with the coding example... I and a friend of mine started as testers around the same point. He is a high school grad, where as I have a masters. My starting salary (In Canadian dollars; so yes, it does suck): $35K His: $30K As we moved into development, the delta grew: Mine: $45K His: $32K Now, after two years, we both have the same position (quite high up for where we are...) but a nearly $20K difference in salary. Is there REALLY a difference between us; no. He and I are pretty damn good coders, but the higher ups love to see that piece of paper. IF you can, get one of those lower end jobs and just study to get a degree or certification of some kind. Your pay scale may suck at first, but it might pay out soon. But those loans are going to suck....
idioelectric - Electric per se, or containing electricity in its natural state.
Hi, Iâ(TM)m 25 years old, I went to university for 2 years and then decided it wasnâ(TM)t for me. At this time I took a run of the mill job in a local DIY store just biding my time till I could work something out more "me". By the time I hit 23 I thought "Right, itâ(TM)s time to do something". So I looked into work in other countries and low and behold I found a job as a Systems Admin in Denmark (of all places). Iâ(TM)ve now been working here for 2 years and Iâ(TM)ve got 3 people working under me. So to answer your question, it is possible, but it takes a lot of hard work. And previous experience is instrumental in securing your job, as a guy that can pass a simple test in an interview is worth more than a guy that canâ(TM)t. Hope this helps ïS
The important part of all your replies is TIME. 10 or 15years ago the number of people working in IT and the proportion of them with a CS degree was significantly less. Also take into account the amount of people who are encouraged to transfer to IT. The number of university graduates in CS increases every year. In the current market getting a job without a degree is almost impossible. Unless you have experience. Getting experience requires either contacts or a DEGREE. You can only show what you know once you get to an interview. With the shear amount of people who think there good at IT out there every job vacancy has hundreds of applicants. Certificates show you know about the systems involved while a degree shows you know the theory. This is in principle the only way to be sure is to interview. So while you can get a job without a degree its better to go for it. As if you don't you will be competing with people with 10 or 15 years experience on you which you will never catch up on.
I got a Masters degree in Computer Science from a "top" university in the UK.
However, if I were a boss interviewing candidates for a role, I humbly admit that I would sooner take a solid open-source hacker (for example) without a shred of paper qualifications over somebody like me!
I learnt many useful things in my course, some much more successfully than others, but there were students in my course who knew more about computers and programming before they started their degrees than I probably still do, years after graduating. I do have a lot of knowledge and a good level of experience after having worked for 6 or so years in the software industry, but the nature of computing is such that you can obtain huge levels of experience and expertise in your bedroom without ever taking a course. Take the Linus Torvalds stereotype, as an obvious example.
OK, there aren't many Linuses out there, but there are plenty of other very skilled programmers or sys-admins who acquired their knowledge totally independently of academia.
A degree shows commitment to a technical discipline, but not nearly as well as some good code or some practical example of systems expertise!
It is completely possible. Personally I still do not have a Degree and have nearly 15 years of experience I have worked in IT ever since I got out of HighSchool. Albeit I started at a lower Wage then someone with a 4 year degree, but I also did not have the Student Loans ;)
15 years later I work with people who have PHD's and MS in Comp Sci and make the same or nearly the same wage
-Daver
The education component is just an obstacle course and the degree is just a piece of paper that says you can do it. It's not about the courses you take its about getting them all done, you'll teach yourself everything you need to know.
What is the difference between someone with a degree and someone without? Generally it's their intellectual level an ability to adapt. This doesn't apply to everyone of course but in my experience it does to most.
A bachelor of science means you not only completed your core requirements but you also explored a great deal more expanding your mind, making you think in other ways and you aren't a limited tool. It also means you took classes in a variety of different classes to understand the underlying technology. On top of that it means that you dedicated yourself to learning for at least 3 and a half years and are fully capable of learning at that level. That's extremely important to companies especially in IT.
A friend of mine is a Sysadmin and took thermodynamics, electronics of computers etc... classes that really delve into why things work the way they do. Not only does that help you understand what the cause of the problem is but the best way to fix it. It allows you to give the companies you work for more options and a better evaluation of the problem. Trying to sum up 4 years of this does not do it justice...
But I would hire someone with a degree and 3 years of experience over someone without a degree and 5 years of experience, if they both worked in similar jobs.
Depends on experience, I started at the very bottom with a firm and worked my way to senior sys admin. I would have never expected a senior position without a degree or experience.
Sorry, but you've ever met the SA's or help desk personnel I work with. The majority of them suck. The reason? They have no critical thinking skills. They don't know how to solve problems, or think outside the normal workflow routines. The reason is because they all have certs instead of degrees. Had they gone to college, they would have skills like critical thinking, leadership, and the ability to form complete sentences. Instead, my development team and I must pick up their slack, and it's not fun. Do yourself a favor and go to college. No matter how overpriced it is, you'll be better off in life with it than without it.
For example, at my first developer job out of college (Insurance company, 2000), the lead developer drove a truck for Frito-Lay and BS'ed his way into IT Dept. Of the 12 of us, I was one of two with a degree, and the only one with a Comp Sci related one.
Of course, they all produced the kind of code you'd expect from the guy driving the potato chip truck. When I left a year later, they were considering getting Source Safe instead of using zip files for source control...
How much do you want to be a janitor. Companies these days treat their hard working, talented, educated (with Masters or PhD) people like crap, let alone someone they pick off the street with no education.
I would say, Masters is becoming the new college (aka university) degree. And due to influx of educated people and massive number of Chinese and Indians who believe in education, soon enough PhD might be considered a normal thing to have to be a programmer.
So, however you look at it, get education if you at all can. I know it is not easy and affordable any more. But it is worth it and it will change you and make you see more and be more independent. However it will also make you more frustrated and unhappy as well.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
I don't have time to troll through all the responses to see if I'm repeating anything, but I offer my wisdom. Its more difficult to get a job without a degree, but not impossible. Some employers only care that you have that piece of paper, and could care less if you actually knew the stuff. The trick lies in finding one that knows that the talent behind that paper (or that would be behind it) is way more important than the paper itself.
"Is it possible to get a good IT job without having a BS or other degree?"
For most people, yes. For you? Probably not.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
I have no degree and work as a corporate systems administrator for a billion dollar company. I started off attending a local community college with plans to transfer to a four-year school. As part of my community college classes I interned in the IT department of a mill for this company. After the intern time was through, I was asked to stay on to help with a project. From there I became an independent contractor for a couple of years and then was hired on. Over the past few years I've worked my way up to being one of two systems administrators that handle the corporate level systems. I never finished even finished community college. I have to thank my internship for getting my foot in the door, but I've made it to this level without a degree.
"Don't hate me because I'm right...Hate me because I'm an MCSE."
A degree is helpful, it tells the employer that you are dedicated to the field and have the ambition to learn the subject material, but as others have said, it only tells half the story. In IT there are certificate programs which Degree vs. Certificate is often a good debate but again it depends on the employer and location for what they value more. Often what it comes down to is experience, can you do what the job requires? I've just turned 28 in the past month and nailed my first sysadmin position. Up to this point I have worked help desk like positions and assistant to the sysadmin. That admin recognized that I liked doing that stuff and delegated lots of his tasks to me so it brought lots of on the job training. I do have a 4 year degree, a couple of entry level certificates, but almost 10 years of experience now which like I said earlier, it depends on how much value the employer puts on those things to determine if they are necessary.
there are little number of fields in which knack and experience has more weight, than I.T. has.
if you are good at what you do, it is quite easy to get a decent job. and even foreign job, irrelevant of where you live.
there are a lot of dinosaur companies, in which the hirings are decided by human resources. human resources is a relatively new field that lacks defined methods and foolproof approaches. hence one of the pitfalls they fall into is shoving a college degree requirement into I.T. jobs, just like they do to anything else. not only that, but some requires 'respectable' colleges, or degrees, which further diminishes their chances of hiring competent i.t. staff.
i.t. is a free field, in which all tools to learn and conduct your trade is contained IN the big cloud, internet, itself. one can start with nothing and become a competent sysadmin or developer within 2 years, doing nothing but learning from the internet through guides and tutorials and constantly developing.
not only that, but it also provides you all the tools to set up your own business ranging from marketing tools to word of mouth.
however if you mean, you want to land a job in some old school (non startup), monolithic, big megacorporation or corporation, you will need extra reputation on top of your abilities. but even then you may not be able to get past the stupidity that is human resources in some corporations.
but then again it is rather foolish to be wanting to work in such a corporation which lets human resources axe its chances of hiring capable individuals - if corporation's philosophy is skewed there, it is highly possible that it is also skewed in other stuff too, which may include work ethics, employee relations, or company psychology and atmosphere.
Read radical news here
Well, I held an IT position for a couple of years but I had a better job - same company - as an Analyst that required my technical expertise that wasn't in IT. But after moving with my partner across the company I had to give up the job. Trying to find a position that was in IT was hard but I decided I'd rather teach CS rather than trying to find another rat race job. Best thing I ever did. Now, I'm 40, in school, and loving everything about it. So, consider going back and getting that degree it might be the better option.
Save Pangaea!! Stop Continental Drift!!
I'm a programmer for a huge corp. and I don't have a degree. I had some experience and that went a long way. Degrees are great to get your foot in the door and a higher starting pay.
Twenty years ago, I was 2 years out of high school. I'd completed one year of a Computer Science degree, but my parents split up and I had no money to continue. I took a job at a small consultant/reseller in my hometown - I met the UPS guy at the door each morning, and spent the day putting away everything that came in, and preparing stuff to ship out that afternoon. At some point, I started tinkering with FoxPro, helping one of the consultants there modify SBT Accounting to do some custom stuff. Through to course of deploying and supporting those modifications, I started doing some Xenix administration.
Flash forward to today - I'm the senior production DBA for an 18,000-employee, 24x7 company, and I crossed the 6-figure salary threshold last January. Over those 20 years, I've done FoxPro/dBase/Clipper development, classic ASP web development, PHP development, Windows and Unix/Linux administration, network security work. For the last seven years, I've been focusing mainly on DBA work, and today my job is 100% SQL Server and Oracle administration, tuning, and development work. Sadly, many of the biggest messes that I've had to clean up in my career have been caused by college educated, degree-bearing "professionals". A degree doesn't guarantee ability.
It can be done without a degree, but it takes a certain mentality. You have to live & breath this stuff. When others go home to play WOW or Xbox all night, you need to be experimenting with something new, teaching yourself some new skill. You need to be downloading, installing, and breaking (and subsequently FIXING) various Linux distributions. You need to participate in online communities.
Unless you want a job with Google or Microsoft, get out there and get working. Do anything, cut deals, get to building pcs and servers. Then, once you get some knowledge, get some MCSE tests at http://www.vue.com/ . For Linux certs, hit the http://www.brainbench.com/ site, unless you want to pay for some of the higher end certs like RHCE or LPI. Brainbench is fairly cheap, and got me my current job five years ago, where I now make 40k/yr, which is decent for where I live. I have a friend who works an hour south of me, and makes 70k/yr and doesn't have a degree.
You have to get out there. A BS in CS is nice, but your really not going to make that much more having a degree. Its all in what you know, not what classes you took.
-- 4 8 15 16 23 42
Sure. I've got one. I have been working in the industry over 13 years though. I think a lot of it depends on your ability and your talent. I don't do very many things in life well, but this is one of them. :)
Illiterate? Write for free help!
The first question would be what type of sysadmin do you want to be and do you have any good contacts? I did consulting for a number of years (small to mid size companies) and the lack of degree never hurt me.
But wait; now you are getting bored. You realize that you are lucky to roll out one server every two years and 80% of your time is patches/account maintenance/backups. The more you think about it, the more you realize that you could be replaced tomorrow because your boss/his boss thinks that all you do is push buttons. If you are wise you spent all that sysadmin free time (you have free time right? All good sysadmins should) learning about what interests you and getting certs as those are what it will take to "move up" if you don't have contacts and/or a degree.
Once you get to a higher level getting asked about what you need (ie: "The Budget") the ability to understand the relationship between IT and the business is critical to your continued growth within the organization. I had to do a business case/presentation for a data dedupe solution that I wanted and I can say without a doubt that the writing and research skills I gained during my bachelors (and now masters) courses helped me a more than just a bit when it came to getting the purchase approved.
At the bare minimum I would say that you need to start earning certs and building your business contacts. Join local user groups or even Infragard (if IT security interests you). Set up a Linked In profile and join a bunch of groups (on that site). A degree can always come later should you feel that it will help you further advance your career. I can tell you that when it comes to many larger companies a degree figures in what your pay will be. Fair or not it is just the way things are.
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
I have no degree and am finding it increasingly difficult to get a job. I'm 45 years old and have been writing computer programs since 1974. I've designed embedded computer systems, and contracted for AOL, Microsoft, Yahoo, and others.
I had "computer science" in high school. My teacher was an old navy computer scientist from the early weather research. I learned the fundamentals from a hard core scientist before "computer science" was its own persuit.
Todays market is tough, if you have the option, get a degree.
What the hell?
I don't think I've ever been compared to anything as horrible as "goatse guy" in my life. Was it anything I said in particular that triggered your wrath?
I'm trying to improve my English. Please correct me on any spelling/grammar errors in this post.
I don't have a BS degree but I was able to get into the field and work my way up. It was durning the 90's tech boom. But I was originally hired into Operations by a guy who liked to hire non-tech people and train them in the field. I worked into Unix Administration over the years. You will find that 80% of the job is just being able to adapt, remember, learn, and get along with the other people. You will also find that no matter what you do, what qualifications you have, a Sysadmin job is not a Sysadmin job. Each company will approach things differently so your main trick will not to "learn the OS" but to "learn the environment". What they have in place and how each part relates to the other part. Working in a cubby whole will get you nowhere. I've also known people, who don't even have a Highschool degree, get hired into the field. They just had to work at really crap jobs and really work their way up. Start looking for jobs. Start looking for anything that will hire you that's close to where you want to go; study; build systems at home and on your spare time (without google) and be ready to change jobs multiple times. Oh, and don't burn bridges. I don't know where you are but I've found that even in large urban centers the sysadmin community is a small one. You may not know the new guy they just hired in, but odds are good that the both of you know someone in common.
I agree. It's not so much who you know as what you know. I've seen several sysadmins without college degrees achieve their position by taking a tech support role or something similar and then demonstrating talent and interest beyond your job. If someone in your organization notices that your talent is wasted in a support role and needs you elsewhere, you'll get promoted, degree or no.
Yes, if you have 10 years experience, or a degree and a handful of experience you too can be a rack monkey at google.
Thats his point. No Ph.D. no good job, good location and involvement in good projects. Once a company becomes large enough it takes some luck to be able to move from the bottom tier to anything else, and honestly why bother if you can get a job someplace else off the bat that pays better and allows you more satisfaction (time worked, projects worked on, career growth & flexibility etc etc)
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
I got my present SysAdmin job through a series of networking... I was working as a repair tech for Staples, and had a regular customer that I kept in touch with through my following job, which was an on-site tech for small business at a local Mom-'n-Pop. When I left the Mom-'n-Pop, the regular customer hired me on as the sole person in IT. Now I'm the head of a 2-person, 3-building IT department.
My Father-In-Law has only his HS Diploma, and is a project team manager for a large (solvent) big-box electronics retailer.
-Pope Peter Porker, S.O.W., K.M.K.R., U.G.O.A., F.S.G.S.D.
I have been working in the Information Security group with a global Fortune 100 company for nearly 2 years now, and am paid just barely below the median salary for the job description. I had nothing more than 1.5 years of college and 4 years in the Marine Corps when I landed my current position.
There are employers out there that are definitely willing to take a look at your personal experience and desire to learn new things.
I was specifically told that the 'personal experience' section of my resume, in which I gushed about the mini datacenter in my laundry room and my creating DOOM maps and running a BBS as a kid in my spare time, was the big reason I was hired. I showed that I had a genuine interest in IT, and I wasn't just going through the motions for the money.
Don't get me wrong, there are some asshole hiring managers out there that will take one look at a blurb like that and write you off post haste, but you're probably better off without that job anyway.
Good luck.
And let me say this: forget about it. Not these days.
I speak this as somebody who did what you are asking about, only decades ago. Back then they didn't have enough people who had ever actually seen a computer to fill all the open jobs. That is not the case these days, I should remark. In any case, if you'd ever touched a computer (wheedling computer time off of system admins used to be quite common) and you seemed bright enough to figure things out, you were hired. Math geeks were preferred. It wasn't a bad way of doing things, but it's as extinct as medieval style apprenticeship. It's as different as going out West in the pioneering days and staking claim to some land, and trying the same thing today.
These days, no degree means that from an employer's standpoint, you're damaged goods. That has always been true once you reached a certain level. I became an MIS director, then later lead engineer in a software development firm, and what I found was that I could no longer apply for entry level jobs and work my way up, but I couldn't pass the filter for high level jobs. It was always a limit on mobility, a filter of which jobs I could apply for and which I couldn't. So, my choice was consulting, or getting the degree. I'd done enough consulting to know that I didn't care for the things I'd need to do to run my own business, so I went back and got the degree.
The degree-less career path was always a dead end, it's just how long you could travel it that has changed; once that path was long enough to make a reasonable career, now it's not.
There's only one option (other than going back to school) when you hit the degree dead end: starting your own business. It could be a screwdriver shop, it could be a web business, or it could be a consultancy (if you have experience worth selling). These days you hit the dead end from the get-go, so I'd say we're looking at a screwdriver shop or a web business. Either way you're going to be self-employed, and most likely won't break even unless you have a hidden gift for business.
Alternatively, you go back to school. A computer related degree is of course, ideal, but really any degree will do, especially if you can scrape together a minor in CS. That, and some luck and fast talking, can get your foot in the door. Maybe you're English major means you can write; maybe your Art History major gets you a position at a museum's IT staff, or at a software developer who sees the advantage of bringing some visual sophistication onto staff. Then once you have a few years of experience plus a degree, you're in much better shape, especially if you continue to take night courses in technology and claim you're working towards a Master's. A CS minor working towards a master's and with two or three years of experience should be pretty competitive with CS majors coming out of school.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Here, we prefer candidates who have some phone support experience, when hiring for 7/24 operations positions. From there they can switch to regular day time (means from 08:00 to 20:00 in good days) engineering/sysadmin/network_jockey jobs. In fact this is the only way in a company where I am managing the related departments.
Reasons behind phone support experience requirement are:
1) Your normal (!?) network engineer with a BS degreee lacks communications skills (that is between carbon based life forms, they can talk SMTP, HTTP, POP etc. alright...).
2) Increased resistance to frustration...
3) They can handle heavy language (King's English and international variants) easier.
4) They have experience to tell people how to perform difficult to tell operations on the phone. If it is difficult for your mother in law to reset a screen saver password, it is difficult for most (IT trained) users to line up a satellite dish after a long ESD shutdown.
I'm a professional programmer, have been since I dropped out of school at 16. Read: I have NO qualifications (including the UK version of the GED), and no extra certification of any sort. I came into this game totally naked.
I started out doing IT Support, quickly moved into PHP development, and now 4 years on I work for a small but very profitable company who write software for the insurance industry. We use a wide range of languages, from Python to C#.
Personally, I have NEVER felt held back by my lack of qualifications, it just hasn't been an issue for my previous employers. I've found all that matters is you're easy to get on with, and really know your stuff.
On the flip side, the number of graduates who don't know the first thing about REAL development or the business world is quite staggering. I'm often left wondering what the fuck they spent the last 4 years doing.
As far as I can tell they spend 2 years learning buzzwords and the rest trying to master procedural syntax. They're vaguely aware of silly little things like object orientation, functional specs, version control, coding standards, and the kind of robustness you need in the enterprise, but often can't seem to understand why they're useful.
This may seem harsh, and of course there are some excellent graduates, but I have been quite surprised, time and time again, at the general quality of candidates.
When it boils down to it, a prospective employer wants to know two things:
Can you do the job?
Can you integrate well with the group?
Personally, I'll take the professional and passionate enthusiast over the wet behind the ears cocky young graduate any day.
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
... hmmm, just a lucky guess: Has the name "Herkules" any let's say "relation" to your company? If so, we're very probably talking of the same person ;-)
But back to topic:
A friend of mine was just hired out of another contract and works now as sysadmin for a large software development company.
He has no certificates at all, not even did he finish secondary school. And he has also no job training. So to say, he's totally uneducated.
But he tought everything himself about IT and administration. For years. He has no IT certificates not because he wouldn't pass the test, but because it's not important from his point of view (I'm talking to him like maniac that he's wrong in this point).
University grades are _not_ meaningless. Especially not if it comes to your monthly payment. Ungraduated will earn less, noticable less.
Without a grade, you won't be able to get certain jobs. E.g. becoming sysadmin in a bank or public office, or at government. There you just won't pass the entry level -- regardless if you're capable of actually doing the job or not.
So, without a grade you first and absolutely need a _perfect_ letter of application. You have only one or two pages to tell the HR people that you're the right person regardless of your education or grades.
You shouldn't tell them streigt "I did not finish school at all, school sucks", but distract them by tactical ommissions. E.g. summing up your education and your carreer very short and using only the starting years instead of start and end. When you write "1992: Secondary school; 1996 web programmer at XYZ", they might not notice that your secondary school time was a bit too short to finish.
To cut it short: Becoming a sysadmin in a medium size or bigger company is possible, even for "uneducated". But it's hard, and nothing I would advise. You'll have to compete with people having the right papers allthough they can't do the job at all -- and it's usually the entry level which is the hardest. If you've managed to get to an interview, you can demonstrate your qualifications.
The slighly overweight penguin.
I'm did it; I did go to college, but didn't get a degree.
I am the IT director for a medical technology company and have been for several years now. I would say that any company that is innovative or really knows what they're doing is going to prize experience and knowledge over certs/diplomas.
If you want to do this I can tell you how I ended up where I am, and I think it's not an unusual trajectory for those who end up in this field without a degree:
1. learn all you can, you have to really like the work and having a knack for it, being good at learning new skills and picking up technical things helps a lot. You do need a solid base of at least some sort of knowledge to get your foot in the door.
2. Find a job as an intern or entry level employee at a small firm (start ups, non-corporate privately owned - perferably) somewhere where you can be mentored and where they use technology you are interested in. You need some skills before doing this, enough to bring at least something to the table - be willing to work hard, pay your dues and learn. I did this at a pirvately owned small ISP/consulting company that built and hosted websites/web applciations. I already had been building computers and doing freelance technical support and tutoring for people, and I learned everything didn't already know there in a few years, the following are just some of the things: Windows Server administration (IIS, DNS, networking etc); HTML, ASP, VBScript, the basics of working with databases, particularly SQL server (EG designing dbs, writing queries and stored procedures etc), the basics of dealing with code revision systems etc, and many other things.
3. In addition to providing me with a place to work with all sorts of hardware and software in live and development states and a mentor, I ended up getting all sorts of contacts in the IT field...That is the other key - after you learn enough to advance or outgrow a position, you need to know people who see that you're good at what you do. I got a reputation among the customers and clients of the company I worked for as someone who was knowledgeable and able to troubleshoot or fix just about any comptuer related issue who is patient and very good at taking very technical things and translating them into something non-technical lay people can understand..
4. One of those contacts was the company I now run IT for - we hosted their website and email and when they needed to solve some technical issues they called my boss and asked for me - I ended up doing consulting for them on several occasions. Eventually the companhy I worked for ended up moving all of their operations to hosted providers (like rackspace) as it ended up being less expensive, the owner retired and couldn't afford to pay me what I was worth so I left amicably. Two months later the CEO of the company I now worked for called my old boss to see if I was available. He gave them my number and I went and did contract work for them. after seeing that they were doing things like buying new PCs when a PC that was less than a year old had a minor problem, and that they were trying to host databases on consumer PCs instead of real servers and were growing to the point that that would be a serious issue for them I made recommendations - one was that they needed a real IT staff - we negotiated and I ended up where I am now. The company has grown significantly since that time.
So that is how I did it - I would say the real keys out of all of that though are to be self motivated and good at learning, and to find a mentor or place you get paid to learn new technical skills...That is crucial, because you have to learn somewhere, and you can learn a lot on your own and online, but it's by no means enough without the real world experience and the input and guidance of others.
There will be some companies that want a degree. They're usually the very big, old, traditional companies or types of companies that do government work.
But the majority of the market prefers job experience or computer certifications over college degrees. Personally I don't think the 4 years and 50k+ spent on a college degree is anywhere worth it.
Maybe 10 years ago, but the price of college has fair outstripped inflation and the time and money spent on it can be used much more effectively to self train and get your foot in the door via the desktop support route.
The problem with not having a degree is that in a tight job market you are competing against people with degrees and more experience. Since you are asking this question i assume you have little experience and no degree so it's going to be tough even to get entry level jobs so i'd go get a 2 year degree in IT and some certs and work while you are in school. After you graduate you'll be in better shape to find a job because you will have a degree and expierience AND hopefully the economy will be better.
I don't have BS, and I'm working in IT for last 7 years. As system engineer/release engineer and last years as senior software developer.
But my overall experience starts at level of ZX Spectrum. (so its more than 15 yrs)
I've seen many people with BS in computer science, who were totaly not professional, and opposite, people without degree who were real guru.
Engineering is a state of mind not a degree :)
I own an IT consulting company that is quite successful and prosperous, with a number of government contracts. And, I have no degree. Push and you can achieve! :)
I never finished my AA. Took all the major requirements I could (the fun stuff), and then dropped out.
Currently, I'm a Sr. Software Engineer. Been in the business for 10 years.
Just means you have to try harder, but you can do it.
-- Jason
I really hope this helps you: If you can build a box with parts you bought and install a linux or bsd with some useful server applications along with properly configured security then you probably can find a decent IT job. If not then I'd say no. I am employed as a data modeler. I do not have a degree, but if you need a box running a database to house 78 million rows of protected health information then I am your guy. In all honesty though, if you can do the above and you have a degree you'll make more money in the long run and be more valuable. I think that says a lot. Don't be like me. I am almost 40 years old and I returning to university next semester to complete my non-IT degree.
I have a big smile on my face when people ask me where I got my advanced degree in CS.
Don't have any degrees. I just have genuine passion for my field. 14 years later, I am still doing my work in it. At this point, no one even remotely cares whether I have such papers.
And yes, this has been answered many times over the years on Slashdot. :)
Leonid S. Knyshov
Find me on Quora
i graduated without honors, pretty much unheard of in the UK and people thought my prospects would be terrible. I took a job doing some development at a small company, worked fucking hard and did well. i've always been a good coder etc, i just didnt get into the uni way of life.
a few years later i get paid more than any of my graduate friends in the same field, am further up the ladder and can jump between jobs. when i was recently looking for work not one recruitment agent asked about my degree, it was all about experience.
if you are good at what you do and you like doing it then your likely better than the majority that are treating it as 'just a job'.
(web dev in london)
jaymz
I dropped out of high school and managed to get a decent IT job. Computers aren't an overly difficult thing to learn.
I was making money while other people were going to college, and now I'm in charge of a few people who have college degrees. You don't have to chop wood just because you drop out of high school.
I see absolutely no correlation between a university degree and the ability to support anything, whether it's some leftover turnkey application that runs on SCO or 1000+ servers.
I have a degree, but I became a sysadmin as an intern. I happened to enjoy the courses leading up to the degree, but the subject matter has very, very little to do with any of the work I've ever done as a sysadmin, or even as a systems architect. I got practical experience on the job, including how to drive an API, and a wealth of other experience that simply was not available in school.
Granted, there is a distinct advantage to understanding programming paradigms. I probably could have learnt the basics on my own, but it doesn't seem likely that I'd have entered the market with them. OTOH, I was hired out of school for systems support, then moved to software engineering when some idiot manager thought it would be a good idea to decimate the support staff. I found it to be utterly soul-crushing, but to be fair, it was a very customised system, e.g., they'd rolled their own network transport and DBMS.
That is, working alone or on a small development team is rewarding beyond description. Being a cog in a large software development corporation is a slow roast.
The enduring lessons I learned at university are critical reading and writing (handy with most manuals), the value of re-reading (manuals), and the value of project completion. The single most valuable lesson, which I use daily, is the confidence that I can tackle any subject matter, even when it seems impossible at first, with careful reading and asking questions. That alone is worth the time and money spent, because I know the difference between my own shortcomings and those of computing products.
Simply put, college provided enough trial and error for me to convince myself that I really grok computers. You may not need this for yourself, and it's too bad that most hiring managers don't have the same luxury of trial and error. They're probably going to be stuck with whomever they hire, so the degree is very attractive to them.
"Press to test."
(click)
"Release to detonate."
Degree or not. I'd say it depends on a several factors.
First, and probably the most important, I believe, is how bright (IQ) you are. I'd say that you might fare better over the long term with a degree if you IQ is 120 or less. Less than 110, then consider a different career.
Second, is your personal learning style. If you learn best in a classroom setting, then the degree is probably the way to go. If you can RTFM and figure it out yourself, then you may do fine without.
Third, is your overall career goal. Sysadmin is a good start and pays well enough. If you think you'll do your entire career in sysadmin or operations management, then no degree might be OK. If you see yourself designing and coding software of some significant complexity, or managing software development then the degree is probably a good idea.
Fourth, is the curriculum you plan to study if you pursue the degree. If your aspirations are toward software development and design, then the curriculum should have courses specific to that career direction. I do not mean programming language courses, but theory courses such as analysis of algorithms, discrete math for comp-sci, and the like.
From my own personal experience, a high school dropout with a GED, there were times over a 30-something year career where I faced software development issues where I knew the degree, at least some very specific knowledge during the pursuit of the degree would have helped a lot. There was one assignment where my employer told me to go buy the books, take 3 months to learn the pre-requisite theory (on their nickle), find a mentor among my peers, then do the job. I did exactly that, but that was a good employer and I had a good track record with them.
There were at least two jobs I did not get because I did not have a degree. In retrospect, those two jobs would not have benefited my career anyway, but there were doors closed because I did not have the degree.
Given my career goals, given the advances in compsci over the years, given the kinds of jobs I had, the degree would have been a good thing. Then again, at the time I was of age to have gone to college (1963), there was no compsci, or IT focused degree.
On reflection, at the time I retired (2001) I'd say that there were, and still are, some holes in my software development education. Had I been able to pursue the degree when I was younger, I might have taken a different path through my career. That path not taken may, or may not, have made a difference in job choices, money made, my personal legacy, ... whatever. At this point, it's moot. For you, however, your decision now will influence your long term career outcome.
JMHO, YMMV.
Posted as Anon for obvious reasons.
I'm in IT, and have been since the mid-90s. I have no college education - in fact, I dropped out of high school midway through junior year because I was bored of it all.
To say I took the long road would be an understatement - years of desktop support, mom & pop shop work, etc - the entire time working in my spare time on furthering my knowledge. Certs, proof of concept labs, etc - I did it. I had a network of over 2 dozen servers at one point, all connected with Cisco gear - sounds more expensive then it is, the dotCom bubble dropped things considerably.
Then a friend of mine was doing construction for a finance company, they needed someone so he arranged an interview. That was literally my 'big break'. I went from $32k, 6 months later $53k, and then it kept growing. Now I make over $120k/year as Principle Administrator of a fairly exclusive university on the east coast. Ivy league. So yes, it can be done, but it won't by any means be easy.
A large part of IT is 'talking the talk'. If you're smart, willing to work hard, and don't mind the extra work - you can talk yourself into a position you might not be 100% qualified for. Then you pick it up, fast, as you go and bam - there you go, more skills to add.
Good luck! It can be done!
I went to college back in the 80's for about 2 months. I quit when they went on strike. I have no college degree and I work for the US Government. I've been a sysadmin since 1993. I've also held positions of network administrator and programmer (before they were called developers). I do typically advise people to get a degree when possible because I think that IT jobs without degrees may be the exception.
I don't have time to sift through the comments on this Monday after a Holiday, but I don't know if this has been presented... I have a Bach. degree from BIOLA (Bible Institute of L.A.). It's officially a Bach. of Science (I took the biblical language requirement to get it as a science degree) in Christian Education... I have the papers and ordainment to be a pastor, specifically, a youth pastor. In reality, that's a tough gig to raise a family on, so I do IT work. I hold a network/sys. engineer and DBA position at my company without a computer certificate or degree to my name.
I think the big thing a lot of people seem to forget about college is that it forces you to jump through hoops. Lots of them, every day. Tons and tons of hoops. Hoops you wouldn't otherwise give a damn about, but you do it because you have to.
Proving you can do this, and do it well, is pretty much exactly what I need to know about you. Guess what? Most of any modern job is doing just that; jumping through hoops. Sometimes the hoops in question are complex, and it'd be nice knowing you were able to manage your way through those at some point at a University.
Basically: given two people of equal knowledge, one with a college degree and one without, barring any personality concerns, I'll pick the university degree over the person without one any day.
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck? What is there to tell me that you won't just coast and accept said check and mail it in, day after day after day?
It's not fair to say that you're like that, because it's very possible you're not. However, when it comes down to it, I'm not willing to take that chance.
(Sidenote: I'm not actually a fan of bullshit and jumping through hoops, but to say they don't ever happen is a bit naive at best. Just saying...)
Well i am currently i live in England. Studying IT for another two years, then ill have an opportunity to join a uni or to go to work. While most of the teachers recommend going to uni, i think going straight to work would be better for me because i'd want to work as: :] Those kind of work positions sometimes require more exp than education. I know i'd have to start working at lower levels when i finish college and only then try to go up the ladder. :]
network technician/linux admin/network admin...etc
But i read about volunteering to charities and such, i quite like the idea of being junior IT guy for a charity related thing. Should i just go around and ask the shops if they need any IT staff? Or any advice how i can approach it would be great
For people with zero experience. Degree, Certs are the tickets to pass the screening and interviews.
Say two people, one with degree and one without. Both have zero experience, and I only have time to interview one...you do the math.
But if you get some experiences, like self employ, or volunteer, or some recommendations and connections that can bring you to the Interview room, degree is not a must. As long as you get the ticket...
The interview would play an important role. Make sure you are prepared. Don't try to play smart and think the interviewer is stupid, that just says that you can't work in teamwork and can't communicate. Try your best to demostrate that your are passionate in the field, and is a quick learner.
Knowledge does play a role but not a top factor. People are most likely looking for those who can communicate well, and quick learners that can upgrade oneself from time to time, especially in IT field where speed of technology changes are blazing fast.
After you get the job. The degree and cert is a past. No one cares about your past history.
Some people learn a lot in the degree (say they might have participated in extra-curriculum activates, or simply means they learned how to interact with people and do teamwork), some people learn nothing and wasted 4-years just on WoW. The HR and interviewers all know this fact, but if it's still better than nothing.
If you want a position for sysadmin in the Microsoft world, you're going to have to spend a few thousand getting certifications. You'll need those whether you have a degree or not.
If you're going for a position with Linux or Unix, check out a local LUG (Linux Users Group) for some great resources and job leads.
Don't stop there though. I got my last SysAdmin job from a guy I played Battlefield 1942 with who was a fellow Linux enthusiast. You never know when opportunities pop up and where, so keep your eyes open.
Evil Walrus >83=
Well, I don't have a degree, but I spent about 6 years in college, studying applied mathematics, physics and computer science.
I never finished mainly due to a liberal arts requirement, lack of money and a lucrative job years ago in visual effects. But I never
stopped educating or training myself. Everything from Veritas cluster, LInux/Solaris internals classes to management classes.
I've been working as a senior Unix engineer/administrator for over 15 years and currently I am vice president of Unix engineering at an investment bank.
So far this has never been a problem, so far, knock on wood. The last two jobs I've had required a degree, my current required a MS or MBA. But my supervisors were happy with my interview, my references and my experience and would deal with HR to get me on board.
But I would NEVER, EVER recommend the path I've taken for anyone. If you are relatively young, go (back?) to school and at least get your
Associates and take some related classes and do what you can to get some experience.
That being said, I never usually look at someone's education, unless they have little or no experience and even then, I look
for people who are willing to learn, have a genuine interest and curiosity in the work and a good personality.
It is true you can't learn system administration in school, but you can learn the foundations for a lot of the things you do as
you advance in your career. I've used the basics I've learned in my OS courses and have applied concepts from algorithm classes
as I have done more at some of my employers than just bread and butter SA work, including systems programming.
But I've been looking at finishing my degree for sometime now, just need to find a few cycles. Considering a
degree in management, finishing my applied math degree or a comp sci degree.
Good luck to you.
I actually got a job as a sysadmin and was making 6 figures without ever making a degree in any related field... however, it all depends on what you know and (pardon me for saying it) how good you are. I was able to pull it off because I grew up in a household where my father worked in the computer industry (as a Salesman) and literally brought minicomputers home for me to play with. I spent my whole childhood programming, fiddling, and hacking, and developed an incredible intuitive grasp for computers and what makes them tick. I followed that up by going to college and flunking out of everything by spending all my time in the computer lab learning everything I could about UNIX and Networking back in the early nineties, just before the Internet hit big.
However, even then it took a lucky break--I was working in the college computer center as an assistant to the chief systems engineer on campus when he got fired. Since I was the only hand on deck who could do his job, I got to do the job (for peanuts) while this state institution tried to hire someone. After three search committees failed to find someone qualified willing to work for what the university was willing to pay, they gave me the job officially.
For what it's worth, I did eventually get a degree... a B.A. in Philosophy concentrating in Religious Studies, followed up with a Masters in Theological Studies. But that was for me, and hasn't had any impact on my job prospects.
So... I guess the short answer is, it's possible, but you'll need a lucky break at some point. And I wouldn't recommend trying it unless you've got the skills to make everybody ignore your lack of degree.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
Companies know that the best IT workers are those that would do it as a hobby even if they couldn't do it professionally.
You hit the nail on the head there. I am IT manager at a small internet company (40 employees) and I am in charge of hiring/firing for my dept. With only 2 notable exceptions, the best employees I have had did not have a degree. However they could tell me how they set up a Linux RAID NAS to supply movies and music to their Xbox or some other similar project. These guys live and breathe technology.
Oh... I also do not have a degree (8+ years experience though).
If you've got the attitude and aptitude to do the job, as well as a desire to learn from your mistakes (or others'), then yes, you have a chance.
I've met too many technical people with degrees that weren't worth the paper it was printed on, not to say that there haven't been very bright and talented people with degrees as well. I guess I'd say that I mean that it's the person, not the degree or lack thereof that makes a good technical person, whether you choose to become a systems admin / engineer (definitions of these terms differ from region to region), network admin / engineer or some other facet of IT.
I started as a UNIX admin in high school, and never looked back. 24 years later, I'm pretty much where I want to be, designing new systems and solutions for a fortune 500, with no desire to *move up* into management.
Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
The degree requirement is there for a couple of reasons. It weeds out the people who are truly and completely unqualified and it demonstrates a minimum requirement for someone with little or no experience in the actual work force.
Every job I've had for the past decade "required" a degree that I don't have. If you bring the experience to the table, the degree requirement isn't even discussed.
Now, having said that, I do wish I had a degree and I encourage anyone who has the time and wherewithal to get one -- not necessarily in CS or engineering -- even history or literature. Because I do feel like I have missed out by not having gone through that experience. Every now and then I'll hear somebody mention something and I have to go wiki it and get a quick primer and then, if it sounds interesting enough, I can learn more about it on my own. A solid university education gives you a nice broad exposure to a lot of things that you don't have time to get to in the work force.
I did the military instead and I swear I don't know how anybody grows up without either college or the military.
After graduating, I found that my degree wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. I focussed on selling myself with a good CV and interview technique.
While I was at uni I worked in pubs and bars. From this I could boast enough about my customer service skills to get a 1st line suppoort position. It didn't pay great, but at least I was on the ladder. Since then I've moved jobs three times, each time moving up, learning new skills, gaining experience of new systems.
Getting that first job is very competitive (even more so now), you've gotta sell yourself as best you can.
I'd also try to move around alot early in your career, to get a varied experience. I don't think you should stay in the same job for more than a year or two, chances are you won't get much more out of it after then. If you're clever you can push your wage up pretty quickly like that too.
Some companies simply will not hire you without a degree, however that is not always the case. I have a decent Network Admin position and I only have two years of college. I have over 10 years of real world IT experience however which I (and my company) find more valuable.
They call it "networking" but I dislike this term as it has a well defined technical meaning.
There are Cisco networking certificates. Where can I go to get a certificate in the other kind of networking?
It is still possible, but it might take a while to obtain. The gatekeepers use the degree requirement as a way to weed through the multitude of applicants they get. They figure that a degree (in almost anything) shows that the applicant is able to apply him-/herself for at least four years. While I'll agree with many who say degrees are overrated, I will say this: they tell me that the applicant should have a basic body of knowledge. Experience is what lets us take book knowledge and make it work in the enterprise, so I'll favor experience any day. Sadly, I've seen both degreed and experienced people who simply can't make things happen in an enterprise. I'll assume you wouldn't fall into that categeory.
Unless you are well connected (a good network), it will be difficult to jump into a sysadmin position without a degree or significant prior experience. You may need to start in an entry level job and pray that you move through the ranks quickly. Alternately, and perhaps a better way for the enthusiast, would be to document all of the significant projects on which you've worked, and then seek out volunteer positions with non-profits. The non-profits will (most often) be more concerned about your skills, and since you won't be paid, they have less to lose in taking a chance on a non-degreed person. The non-profits will then give you those experience items on your resume (like a list of jobs--people perspective employers may call for references).
In any case, be sure to structure your resume to focus on your technical expertise, rather than your employment history. Start with a list of major projects and IT skills, then employment history, and finally education (if you have any degrees or certifications of any type). When preparing to interview, be sure to have stories and illustrations ready that demonstrate your level of skill, and the complexity of the environments in which you have served.
I landed my first two full-time IT gigs without a degree, but I started in support positions. Over time, I went back to school and earned a degree (in business management with an IT emphasis), mostly as a "just in case" degree--in case I ever needed to apply for another job, since degrees were starting to become a litmus test. In time, that degree served me well, and helped me to parley my way into some better positions.
So, it can be done, but it can be a long road.
I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
Disregard that, I suck dicks.
Absolutely you can get a job and work in IT without a degree. However, that being said, it depends on the state of the economy where you live and who is doing the hiring how difficult it is compared to having a degree. In all likelihood without a degree you will have to start at a lower rung and work up till you have some experience doing what you want to do.
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Many of the smaller organizations I have worked for have had their IT responsibilities filled by one office worker who just happened to have an interest in computers. I.E. an engineer who knows how to configure a wireless router, or something like that. If you can figure out a way to get your foot in the office door, for some other purpose, like being a receptionist or some other kind of clerk, and you have the skills, and the patience, and get lucky, then you might.
But you shouldn't expect the big bucks. The reason such companies don't look for the IT specialists is because they are trying to get by on a shoestring budget. You would be daisy chaining $50 routers and fixing jammed printers for $8-10 per hour.
I personally would suggest either
Ironically, the degree requirement is often disconnected from any technical ability. I know plenty of people who have undergraduate degrees in liberal arts, English, biology or other disciplines who work in IT.
What you can do is summarize projects you've worked on - if you have no experience, try to get internships if you can, though those positions might be slim pickings in the downturn.
Another place to get real experience, albeit without concomitant compensation, is doing work for nonprofits. You can do some free community service, and you get a resume bullet and a glowing recommendation from the nonprofit. Plus you can get a tax receipt for your work. This helps you build technical credibility to offset the lack of a degree.
There are often good reasons to work for free - it's worthwhile to work for free in order to learn a valuable skill or to get experience in a technology or business practice. You may get hungry while you're doing it, but if that's what it takes to open the door, take it.
One of the many other routes in the door to a good sysadmin job is the dreaded helpdesk. It's grunt work, but if you get in the door and are sharp, it's pretty easy to rise above the pack and lobby for a sysadmin opening when it comes along. An alternative path out is to get into a business analyst slot rather than a sysadmin - if you are really good at VBA and Crystal Reports, you can parlay that into a career, in fact it may be more lucrative than doing sysadmin work.
Does it HELP? Yes. You're likely to find that without a degree you have fewer prospects and make less money; that's where I'm stuck. That said, I have a job, and I'm making as much as I really need, even if I'd like to be making more. So it's not like it's impossible to get a decent job without a degree... it's just harder.
I graduated High School and took 2 semesters of college (didn't pass any classes)... I'd been a computer hobbyist my whole life and built linux servers and toyed with coding in almost every language.
Now I'm working as a sysadmin/network engineer for an elite technology architecture group in a fortune 500 company.
Some of the downsides of working in such a group is that I didn't have mandatory exposure to low-level networking stuff like some of my CS-majoring friends did... and they were also exposed to additional design patterns and optimization profiling (bigO notation, etc) that I didn't work with until I needed to, but overall, I've found that you can learn faster and be exposed to more useful technologies when you do it yourself.
I mean, what do they teach you in [american] higher education that pertains to IT? basic networking technologies and Java?
...spike
Ewwwwww, coconut...
IT as a job title is pretty meaningless. You can't go up to someone and say I work in IT and expect them to have any idea what your job actually is. Even if they work in IT in the same company as you. It could be anything from someone who changes tapes for backups to a help desk worker to a project manager to software engineer to sys admin. Depending which of these you think you can just walk into will decide whether you need a degree or not. I'm going to assume that you think you will just walk in the door and be given root/admin to a bunch of boxes so you can start using your elite skills to run big brother on a bunch of machines to impress people. Chances are, without a degree you will find a job answering phones and running help desk scripts.
You see a lot of posts about how 15 years ago I broke in without a degree and now I run the world. Well, this isn't 15 years ago anymore. 15 years ago there weren't boat loads of 2 year tech and certification programs available. Experience is always the most important. A degree simply allows you to substitute it for some experience. No degree, no experience pretty much equals no job now, unless you have an inside.
Also, assuming you are young, just do the smart thing and find something else to do. IT sucks. ;)
Do yourself a favor and go to college. No matter how overpriced it is, you'll be better off in life with it than without it.
I'm not sure who you are addressing this to. I have a bachelors and a masters degree. Mine are non-technical. At the time I applied, I had a BS and MCSE and CCNA and 5+ years of experience. The HR department refuesed to pass my application on to the hiring department (I presume IT, but for all I know it was a customer service department) because I didn't have a degree in Computer Science. The only degree that counts as a degree was CS. Any other degree was counted as if they were a high school graduate, including if I were to re-apply now that I've completed an MBA.
Had they gone to college, they would have skills like critical thinking, leadership, and the ability to form complete sentences.
Well, I'm presuming from your attitude that you've completed college. However, you haven't managed basic reading skills. I said nothing that indicated someone shouldn't go to college. I indicated that I had gone to college (presumably an endorsement of it) and even after the experience I relayed, I went back for my masters (a further endorsement). And somehow you seem to take my comments to indicate that I'm supporting not getting a degree. I stated that someone may run into places where a degree is required (even when it shouldn't be) and thus will have limited access. However, even without a degree, one can still succeed. Starting off a reply with "sorry, but..." makes it sound like you are disagreeing, yet you said nothing that is in disagreement with what I've said. You essentially said "whether it is good or bad for your career, it is good for you personally." As for certs vs degrees, you are trolling. People with degrees like to claim superiority. However, I've seen nothing that supports that. I would guess that I have more degrees than you and more certs than you, and depending on what you are aiming for, one may be better suited than the other, but none of them are a reflection on the person holding them for anything more useful than sorting resumes. A degree is a cert, like all the others.
Learn to love Alaska
You're about five years to late. In the early 2000's you could get an A+ Certification and be on your merry way. Unfortunately, most companies share the saying that "People who can't do, do certifications." I still hang up my Comptia certs in my office so I can reflect on all those good memories.
Having a college diploma matters a lot in latin american countries. I grew up in Chile where they teach you "the diploma is everything" but that was not a problem with me. There, I dropped out of college with 3 semesters remaining, after a few weeks got IT job in a multinational corporation earning more than my 5-year experience graduated brother.
Now I live in the US and what I see here is they care a lot more about your experience. They even put "college degree or equivalent experience" in most job postings.
If you can't land the job you are seeking and you think your lack of degree is in the way, take the reasonably low salary for a couple of years so you have experience in your resume, then move on.
HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but 10 years ago was right in the middle of the dot com boom, when if you could power on a computer, you could probably get an IT job.
Unfortunately, with the economy the way it is right now, nobody is hiring without a degree unless the person has significant "professional" experience. Lacking that experience, you're shit out of luck without a degree. Hell, even with a degree it's difficult to find a job without experience.
He could try going the startup route, but that's difficult without experience. "I don't have references, but I've networked my mom's basement" usually doesn't cut it.
I'm sure it's theoretically possible to start out without a degree right now, but he'd make his life 1000x easier by just getting the degree.
Maybe not
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Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel."
Iwan, rustig aan, kerel. Trolls zijn trolls en dat soort rommel is niet persoonlijk bedoeld.
Translation:
Trolls this and that.. blah blah, learn Dutch.
Qualifications aren't just for show, they mean that you've extended your knowledge in the area and that someone has verified it.
But the question is often, "how well did anyone verify it?" There are lots of people who just barely squeaked by through college or their certifications, and so sometimes those qualifications don't mean as much as they're intended to.
I had a boss once who hired two college drop-outs and a guy with a CompSci degree and certs out the ying-yang all for the same job. Within a couple years, he'd promoted the two drop-outs and was busy looking for justification to fire the CompSci major because he was sloppy, slow, and had a bad attitude. These things happen.
What's more, I'd say that a lot of time, education is a poor band-aid to cover lack of experience. I don't mean to argue that education isn't important, but I've had a regular problem with computer science majors fresh out of college who are to focused on how things are "supposed to work". Like something breaks, and it's sitting there broken, and the recent grad sits there and tells me, "it's not supposed to do that!" So I'm thinking, "no shit, sherlock, if it was doing what it was supposed to, it wouldn't be 'broken', would it?"
In Argentina, where I live, there is not a single institution that is able to produce good IT professionals (in ANY field). I've been in both sides of the game, hiring and postulating, and the only thing we care about is experience and the ability to prove in an exam what you say you know...
According to USA Today, 20.4% of farmers have a 4 year degree and 90% of farmers are self-employed and the middle half of farmers earn from $766 to $1382 a week in 2006. College degrees and income are in line with the rest of America and self-employment is much higher than the rest of the population.
Why is it that a college educated person running a business, with millions of dollars of equipment is considered uneducated?
In these economic times there are few jobs and those there are have plenty of competition.
It's certainly possible, but it won't be easy unless you work very cheap
-- Programming with boost is like building a house with lego. It's a cool but I wouldn't want to live in it
Yes, you can develop a good career in IT if you are smart, hard-working, and willing to do the "Dirty Work" initially (and even to some extent long-term). What I mean by "Dirty Work" is you need to plan on spending many hours outside of work learning technologies, understanding issues, and combin the internet for technology information. You need to be a talented problem solver (Do you like Logi Puzzles?) and you need to "Work Hard"! This last point I cannot stress enough.
I've managed to turn my lack of degree into a comfortable six-figure salary over time. I did it through hard-work and hard-study. I know much, much, more than the average (or even above average) college grad and I've consistently delivered during my career.
Now, that being said, I really wouldn't recommend this road. It's tough!
I have a lot of regrets. I know I've had to work twice as hard as my peers to achieve recognition. There are still jobs, that I would love to pursue, for which it is difficult to get my foot in the door for lack of degree.
I would strongly recommend you not worry about getting a "Good Job" without a degree and instead focus on how you can get a degree without bankrupting yourself or starving to death. You may be, like me when I was young, thinkging you have no choice other than to work to survive, but, trust me, you have more choices than you think. You really, really need to consider whether you want to go down the "No Degree" road, because, once you do, it is very difficult to change later.
If you stick with the degree route as long as possible, you can always change to the "No Degree" route easily later. Changing back from the "No Degree" route to "Hey, I think I want a degree after all" is much, much more difficult.
Does anyone else have similar experience?
Over-the-top Response Guy! Giving "Over-the-Top Responses" since 1970.
That being said your first few jobs are probably going to have to suck while you amass some experience. Once you have four or five years of experience, it'll be a lot easier to find positions and companies that will take you seriously.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Currently without a degree I am leading a team of sysadmins managing around 600 servers spread across a large geographical area. I got here based on luck, making the right impression at the right time before I was available for another job. If you get a job in a high turnover, high tempo environment you can easily get experience and progress if you know what your doing.
For example, i am currently working in a warzone as a sysadmin team lead for 400-500 servers spread around the country. I work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week making excellent money. When I took this job I had no professional linux/windows system administration experience. What I did going for me was that I owned RedHat 4.x back in 1996 and have been a linux fanboy since. So 12 years of using linux variants in my spare time got me in this position, and will sustain myself and my family for many decades with the experience I have now.
wow, that's the really crappiest reason to attend university I've heard in a long time and I'm very very glad you're not my employee.
What is the person was in the military and did the same exact job you're hiring for his 4 years? Will that weigh in with a degree? The military has more hoops than any higher eduction.
There are definitely companies out there that have very strange ideas of what qualifies someone to do a particular kind of tech work. This place you reference, that refused to consider you because you didn't have a CS degree - even though you [i]have[/i] a degree - is plain stupid. I'm not saying it's purely anecdotal; I think there are way more places like that than you'd expect. But I also think that the vast majority of companies that have tech positions to fill are not so rigid. Good hiring managers know that technology is a moving target, and that the most important thing is to get someone who has an aptitude for the work, can roll with the punches and grow with the position.
Maybe it's just sour grapes, but I suspect that had you been hired into that position, you would have ultimately hated working for that company. As I've gotten older, I've come to realize that the ideas that come from company management are not the best ones just because they come from company management. Companies are comprised of people, and most people are average. Sometimes, you'll get a situation where the person making the decisions is below average, and that's when you end up with stupid crap like requiring a CS degree for front-line tech support. On the other side of that spectrum is creating laminated flow charts and expecting to be able to put low-paid monkeys in front-line tech support positions, but that's a whole other thread.
Web 2.0 == Giant Blogspam Circle Jerk
Sadly high school degrees have been degraded by requiring less and less of students in the US. Still, employers really want them as well as college degrees.
But the real ice breaker is when you can demonstrate work that is original and of blatantly obvious value to prospective employers. For example if you can create a real killer of a game and let the prospective employer know that it is your work you will gt the job and get paid big time.
Many universities teach you different things. We're not talking hidden trade skills or secret knowledge about standards (oxymoron), but rather skills for the rest of your life. Like how to learn, how to interact with people in a professional setting, the time to meet people, prestige, and more.
They're called institutions for a reason, as they give a "prescribed education". You don't need them as has been proven over and over and over again, but in today's business world, it's nice to have proof you know how to learn.
It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.
And it's absolutely true. Absent seriously special circumstances, I would not consider hiring someone without a college degree.
'Tis a shame the max for mod points is 5.
If you truly value experience over credentials, the experienced non-degree candidate gives you exactly that. In fact, they have nothing else to sell.
There are a few other benefits as well. Thanks to the mechanics of HR departments, the non-degree candidate is not likely to be a job hopper. Their only path to success is to pick up new skills and fully dominate the challenges in front of them. One other bonus: Never having to listen to someone trying to win an argument with the "But I have a degree!" logic. That alone makes the non-degree strategy worth considering.
The only downside is that people learn some useful skills in college. You need to verify that your candidate learned those skills somewhere (preferably at the expense of some other employer).
Considering the increasing number of foreign candidates with bogus degrees, the number of non-degree IT workers is much higher than anyone is willing to admit. The majority of offshore people have real degrees, but fakes are certainly out there. It certainly explains the occasional MSCS with third grade English skills who trips over a SQL select statement. Being a foreigner is not a prerequisite for having a fake degree, but it helps when the school in question has language and time zone barriers that interfere with verification. And of course, technology favors the fakers.
I once worked in government. They were REALLY strict about checking transcripts. About 5% turned out to be bogus -- people whose degree claims could not be substantiated with transcripts mailed from the school. The percentage of fakes would have been much higher, but the verification was limited to finalists -- people who were probably getting a job offer if their references checked out. God only knows how many fakes we would have caught if we considered H1-Bs or did a full verification on all candidates. I was originally hired as an entry-level temp, and reluctantly admitted by the HR department (only after they realized that I had accepted an offer and it was too late for them to say no). Thirteen years and 6 promotions later I still had no degree, but I was much higher in the org chart. As a department manager, I had candidates getting their applications tossed for bogus degree claims, while I had none in the first place. And of course, we hired contractors who were somehow exempt from the process.
If your company's degree verification is anything less than superb, you can assume that 5% of your co-workers have fake degrees.
No matter what a job requirement might claim, employers HIRE experience. Degrees are a screening criteria -- simply a reason to NOT hire a candidate. It allows the HR department to take a large stack of resumes and turn it into a smaller stack. If the stack is already small, the degree requirement is suddenly less important.
Some candidates think they can get hired by eliminating all of the reasons why employers are saying "No". To me, this is impossible. The excuses never end. I think it's much more productive to work on things that make employers say "Yes".
Some fields are truly credentials-based. You get the credential and sooner or later someone hires you. Getting into the field is merely a numbers game -- put enough paper in play, conduct a reasonable interview, and wait.
IT hiring has always been more like the world of dating. No matter what we SAY we want (personality, honesty, compatibility, etc.), the REALITY is different. An attractive person walks into the room and all heads turn. We preach the importance of degrees until a highly experienced candidate walks into the room, causing the discussion to shift dramatically.
For what it's worth: I have over 20 years of experience in practically every job you can get in the IT industry. Although I have no degree, my career has been a great success. Not everyone should follow my example, but no one should be discouraged about the possibilities.
I tell IT people to plan their educ
Hopefully the industry hasn't changed TOO much, but I can tell you from experience that you can definitely do that, but you'll need to start at the bottom first. You really need to have experience managing hundreds (more or less) machines before you can handle servers and other equipment. Learn your TCPIP. Become a guru in one OS, and it'll be easy for you to master other OS's. Finally have faith in yourself and if it's something you want to do, don't listen to naysayers. Just will it into being.
I have gone the no degree route and have been very fortunate. You need to realize though that those with degrees put in time at school and earned some equity from just doing it. You need to make your own personal equity. Networking with others in the field and outside the field (opportunities come from the most unlikely sources). Volunteer at a local non profit, they can always use some help and people take notice of this. In my location there has been a resurgance of user groups. Interestingly enough they are unabashedly less technical and more oriented towards making contacts, as well as vertical or horizontal movement. Flexibility is important too! You may want a sys admin job but a stint on a helpdesk will get you in the door. Once in offer suggestions and improvements to the admins but know your place. I caught some flack on this one in an earlier post but I still believe in it. A person that works well in a team (doesn't bully his ideas) is more appealing for a promotiion. Hang out for after hours maintenance and help is allowed to. These things will build the personal equity you need to overcome the lack of paper...trust me it works.
I don't know about in general, but I am an anecdotal example of being able to get a job without a degree.
I'm an senior software engineer with Red Hat, and am not degreed. Granted, I've been in school for a several years now in order to get my degree, but did not have one when I was hired three years ago.
Prior to that I have had several very good paying jobs as a developer all based on my experience and not my education. But, when the economy slumped in 2002 I was laid off for an extended period and had a problem finding work. Most employers then were filtering out candidates based on a lack of degree or lack of anything less than a masters.
Darryl L. Pierce "What do you care what people think, Mr. Feynman?"
I see lots of people saying that you don't need a degree and I have to agree, sometimes. The problem is that there are a certain number of jobs that will only go to people who have degrees. It often doesn't matter what the degree is in but to even interview for those jobs you'll have to have some sort of degree. You have to remember that you are dealing with personnel weenies many times and they have a list of qualifications that have to be filled by an applicant. If college degree is on that list and you don't have one they won't even give you an interview. The guys/gals in IT won't care but it's on the list for Personnel so that's the way it's going to be. So if you can get a degree of some sort it's one sort of ticket that can't ever be taken away from you. Truth to tell it doesn't even matter what the degree is in. Mine's in music from back in the 70's and I've still had interviews where that particular ticket was enough to get me in the door. AG
Non bene pro toto libertas venditur auro
Who's to say I didn't mail it in to get through school, and continue to mail it in day after day at work? "It's a problem of motivation, alright? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime..."
Absolutely. Will it happen right away? No. You've got to be willing to work at it. It's taken me nearly 10 years to get the IT Manager position I have now, but I have no degree. I've been through plenty of not so great jobs along the way, but always with a goal in mind. Don't be discouraged if it seems like you are being overlooked for jobs you want or have hit a wall. My greatest strides have come in the last 3 years. 3 years ago I was sitting in a cubicle answering phones and walking clients through software installs. Today I have quadrupled my salary and have my dream job. My family and I are finally reaping the benefits of a lot of hard work. In the beginning take whatever meaningful work you can get. Potential for experience to be earned trumps salary starting out. I've also found that there are basically 2 breeds of employers - ones who put all their stock in degrees and ones who hire based on reputation and experience. IMHO those who look solely at a degree and deem you qualified/unqualified for a job are idiots. Many college graduates don't know the first thing about running a network. Conversely some of the most intelligent people I have ever known dropped out of college or never went at all. I don't think a degree ever hurts if you can afford it or have a scholarship or some financial assistance, but it's not the end all be all of the IT world. It's really just a matter of patience and finding the right employer - someone who hires based on track record vs fancy papers. Or as so many other comments have noted - work for yourself. No papers required. All that matters is results. Good luck.
I'm a Jr. Admin and there's no sign in site that I'm going to stop climbing anytime soon. I spent a couple of go-nowhere years in higher education.
A degree is great for many obvious reasons but consider the recruiter's perspective: you have 200 applications on your desk for one position. 100 of these either don't include a resume or have a generic, irrelevant resume that tells you the applicant saw your job posting and added it to the massive list of places to which they're applying. 50 or so are overqualified. 50 or so sound about right. Which of the 50 gets the job? The one with the prettier piece of paper?
If someone already inside the potential employer knows you, likes you, and thinks you could handle the job even if you're a little underqualified (or a little overqualified), your name just went to the top of the list of 50. The only place that has hired me without knowing me first was Wendy's- and they weren't going to hire me until I came in and made a good impression!
It's all about the People style of networking. Speaking of which, if you'd like to chat about breaking into the industry or just add another IT industry contact to your list, shoot me an email!
And hey, same goes for any IT folks looking to network!
Here's my take on it - you can get a job, depending on the job. It probably won't be a great one, and you'll have to work that much harder to establish yourself on merit.
My own abbreviated story behind that rationale: I went to college for a couple of years in the '80s. Left and got an entry-level (at the time) job doing training and support for a computer store. I mainly drifted between sales and support jobs at resellers for several years and made squat, but it was a way to be in the biz. Then one of my customers hired me to run the systems they'd installed. From there, I wound up gaining enough real-world experience (and, as we grew, I got a small staff to manage) to be useful. When it became time to move on, though, my lack of a degree was a factor. I wound up with a good job after that, and gained more experience and expertise (along with a larger staff), but that job went away when the office I worked at got shrunk back in '03. And the lack of a degree was definitely a factor again in looking for jobs afterwards - in fact, there was one I would have absolutely gotten (I found this out after the fact), but for that lack.
I wound up striking out on my own, and have managed to do quite well with my own company (we employ several other people as well), but that's really the first job where it hasn't mattered somewhat. I'm probably at a point now where age and experience outweigh the lack of formal credentials. But it took over 20 years to get there. So as much as you don't _need_ a degree, it certainly makes life easier, especially early on.
It doesn't have to be an IT-related degree, though. I'd say study whatever interests you the most, so long as you take at least some classes to help you with what you want to do for a living.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck? What is there to tell me that you won't just coast and accept said check and mail it in, day after day after day?
You're right... It might have been my military experience that got me the job, if jumping through hoops and being willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want are qualifications... haha
I've been coding and doing my own learning from an early age, much akin to I'm sure many others who read Slashdot, amongst other sites. All too often people mistake the lack of a formal degree as a lack of an education. The two are not one in the same.
Can one get a good job in the field without an Education. No. This doesn't exclude those who are self educated and make serious investments in their self-education and self-evaluation of weaknesses so as to better improve oneself. There are bound to be deficiencies in a non-formally educated individual as they may opt (at first) to ignore that which they don't see as relevant or boring, just as the formally educated I've found (with little exception) are educated in a 'box' if you will, and are more oft than not horribly averse to venturing outside of that comfort zone even when a project dictates as such.
A passion for the art as well as the discipline to learn on ones own are what are truly necessary. The degree while required at some places is less meaningful as years of experience are attained. Getting ones foot into the door at their first professional position proves to be the hardest part.
Eric Elinow http://www.codedevl.com/
There are temp agencies that "farm out" IT techs to larger businesses. I don't think they REQUIRE a degree, just that you pass their basic computer knowledge test before they start placing you in positions in their client's firms.
Having at least an A+ certification would obviously help, but if you show them you're smart and ambitious, they'll start placing you higher.
I can tell you from experience that an CS Degree and even certifications aren't that important, if you're willing to work your way up the ladder. What you do is get placed at various companies for a short duration as a temp, get some experience. When you find a good enough temp spot at a company you click with, talk with your immediate superior at the firm about hiring you away from the temp agency.
It can be done (as I said, I speak from experience), but it can also be a rocky road. Hang in there though - like I said, it's more important that you're smart, dedicated and able to solve problems.
ttyl
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
I think it has more to do with how bureaucratic the company is than with how "snobby" it is. Often in larger companies the job requirements will be made up by someone from HR who doesn't really have anything to do with the position that they're hiring for, and "must have a degree" gets tacked on to the job listing more or less arbitrarily.
It has been a while since I've been involved in interviewing / hiring anyone in IT, but here's my opinion and experience. Disclosure: I have a (4-year) degree with an area of concentration in Computer Science.
I'm not so interested in the piece of paper of the degree, but I am interested in the (typically 4) years prior where you spend your time learning, and developing an understanding of computing, computer architecture, computer science, software engineering, problem solving, and time management. One small but critically important lesson is learning how finite your knowledge is. That they are people who know "more" than you do. Other lessons include dealing with success, failure, pressure, and interacting with others.
In my experience the self-taught IT person may be capable, but at least as many are not. Interpersonal skills are probably the biggest unknown. Some are insecure or "have a chip on their shoulder" about the differentiation between degreed and not. Some may have excellent knowledge of all-but-obsolete technology (DOS batch files wizard?) and try to solve every problem with what they know, rather than looking for a "proper" solution (one that is better suited).
So if you have a decent understanding of the fundamentals and a desire to learn more, then you're a good potential candidate.
The biggest problem is that you are not likely to get hired through an advertised job position. The competition between candidates with degrees and HR staff who are risk adverse will likely throw out your resume along with the 200 other people not short-listed to give to the hiring manager. So you likely want to learn about business 'networking' to find unadvertised jobs, often through friends and colleagues who know that you are capable and worth considering. In this case your resume is given directly to the hiring manager, without the HR 'filter' process.
If/when you can afford it and have time, you may want to seriously consider getting "something" for post-secondary education or 'professional' training in IT to show not only education, but genuine interest and initiative.
I don't know if that explains / helps any.
Who's gonna hire you if you're the kind of person who did phone support?
Working the phones is often a foot-in-the-door kind of job. There's no shame in starting on the phones... If you're still there after 10 years, though, that's kinda bad.
I started on helpdesk in college, then worked the phones at another job, then worked my way into a junior sysad role at the same company. Left that job, worked as sysad/web monkey, then moved into senior sysad roles, leading teams of other sysads.
In my last role as the tech guy in a small biz partnership, I hired my successor off of the phones at another company. He'd just finished college, and I could tell that he was bright and ambitious. I knew he was bright because he did well in the technical interview, and I knew he was ambitious because he'd found ways to challenge himself on and off the job (which isn't easy to do in big callcenters).
In short, if you're going to skip the diploma (or even if you do get one), be prepared to put some time in the trenches in order to demonstrate your worth. The people who do hiring are most interested in seeing what you've done, not what you say you can do.
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Unless it's down, or slow, or fails to POST!
You know, it's real funny your asking this question. I was just going over this myself. I find you will need: 1.)Either industry certifications with experience. Or 2.) College degree with experience. It is so HILARIOUS that some people say your Doomed unless you get a degree. Typically these are the people you want to stay away from. Yes, it's good to get/finish a degree. Yes, it's good to get industry certs. Even better if you have all the above with experience. I've worked for the world's 3rd largest oil conglomerate in I.T. Perhaps you've heard of them, they go by the name Schlumberger. They hired me based on personality, skill set, and the desire to grow/learn. Yes, it is possible to work your way through, but you will find it easier to obtain the "good IT" job with certs or degree. So if you choose the certs way. Force yourself to do two things. One buy the right book and two READ it. Then you can go take a test and pass the test. Good luck to all of you who have made it through College/Certs/Hard work. I commend all of you who are in inspiration to me.
That's not completely true. You can also do well going to a trade school instead of college.
Assuming you can follow instruction well, you could also join the military. I know it sounds crazy, but with the incoming administration, deployment rates will likely drop significantly. Plus, you'll at least have a solid job for ~4+ years. I joined the Chair...erm, I mean "Air" Force and served on active duty for 4 years. I only had a few college credits when I joined, and I have yet to finish my degree. However, the experience I gained in the military really shines on my resume, and I'm happily making just under 6 figures only 1.5 years after separating.
If you've got some skill and ambition then you can get a job, but you've got to be willing to do it for less pay. I went to a dice.com job fair and accepted a paid internship to prove my worth. I had no job experience and no degree at the time, but I had a kid on the way and was in college for computer science. A great company gave me a shot because they could see the determination in me and that means a lot to many companies. Its a year later and I'm a mid-level programmer and I got my BS and my family is going to celebrate a fruitful holiday. If you put in the effort, and play office politics the right way, you'll get the job and income you want sooner or later.
I had no (IT-related) degree when i started working in a pc shop. Then after working there for some time i moved to a junior admin job, learned alot there and got some minor degrees (CCNA, some MCP's). Now i got a job where i'm a sysadmin for several companies and studying for extra certifications (NCLE passed, now doing RHCE) to get a bigger salary and have a better base for when i move to my next job. And if i spent some more time studying IT-related stuff instead of gaming i would have been there a lot sooner.
Just start your own business. You don't need an employer if you already have a computer. Just start writing an interesting program or start offering some sysadmin service, you alone or with friends. No degree needed. No investment needed other than your own effort and time. I really cannot understand why everyone skips entrepreneurship as something remote or utopian and only thinks of becoming an employee when realising that they need some income. I can understand that you would prefer to become an employee if your specialty is about aerospace engineering because the tools of your job are more readily found in companies rather than at home, but with computers you already have anything you need to start producing. You only need creativity and intelligence.
I would say that a degree isn't absolutely necessary but highly recommended. Even more important than a degree is if it's something that you're naturally interested in. As in would you still pursue it even if you didn't make all that much money? Do you spend hours keeping yourself updated on what's new and tinker at home regardless if it's job relevant? If you do then I suspect you're am amazing tech. However, I would still say going to University is a good thing. It teaches you to handle stress and to learn quickly. More importantly, I had a chance to work with others. While a degree isn't always a sign of a good candidate, it's a sign they have the strength and will to at least accomplish a goal. Don't forget too that there's lots of IT candidates out there. Sometimes when it comes down to it a degree might be the only way to distinguish two candidates apart. I know it played a part in my current system admin job. Finally, don't expect to make a 6 figure income in IT. I certainly don't. I enjoy what I do and my pay is very reasonable. It's taken me a while to get where I am and I have to admit I didn't have the best luck in the world but it did work out in the end. The fact that you emphasize on money has me worried. As it's long been said, take a job because you like doing it. Even if it's a great paying job, it will cost you your health and life in the end if you don't like what you're doing.
3 years of college, no degree. 17 years in IT. I am among 33 System Administrators that support 7,000 + UNIX and Linux servers enterprise-wide for a leading drug retailer. Nothing I learned in college even applies to what I do for living. I would say, depending on the company, getting a sysadmin job is easier than you think. When in the interviews, talk up your UNIX or Linux experience. It will go a long way.
Reading the posts I agree with most of them. I work as a team lead and perform the interviews, etc. I, personally, have a BS in computer science and looking at a MS. I look more for experience than for a degree. But if it is an entry level position, and I have two junior candidates, one with a degree and one without a degree, I will opt for the degreed candidate. The degree tells me the person will put up with the BS (no pun intended). If you do not have the degree and you are looking for a job in IT, then be prepared to accept a job in operations monitoring systems until you can get the experience required.
I've been building computers since I was about 11 years old, and have always played with computers and their software as a hobby. I've administered my systems at home running websites, databases, etc. After high school, I got a job doing security systems, satellite TV, cable TV installs, all sorts of things *not* computer-related.
Being a member of TCBUG (Twin Cities BSD User Group, http://tcbug.org/), I came across a job posting for a FreeBSD sysadmin, and interviewed for the job. I was able to prove I was knowledgeable and overcame the hurdle of not having a degree, due to the many 'hobby' hours I put in tinkering. Even without a degree, http://payscale.com/ indicates I'm above the 50th percentile for my salary range.
That being said, get a degree if you can. Life will be much easier and you might learn something. I don't recommend the non-degree path as there's a certain stigma in white-collar jobs for people without a degree.
What you say is absolutely true for a programmer, but I am not sure why it's relevant to a system administrator.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
And here I thought that college was just a way to prove you know how to spend an exorbitant amount of money to have someone who isn't actually in the field teach you something you could learn on your own with outdated equipment and concepts.
Sure you can get an IT-related job without a BA or candidate degree. It just wont be the highpaying stuff or private-sector unless you know someone who know someone etc.
I, for instance, am working temporarily for the danish government in switching from old hardware to new hardware in the different branches (about 4000 machines or so) with a salary of 130 danish kroner an hour (that's about $22 an hour). Not really a brainy job, but relative to the users you get the pleasure of being the local Einstein on call.
Today we were switching out computers in a mental institution. What saved my day was someone asking me to install Ubuntu on their box off the books. I was paid in coffee and pastry. I do have a BA though, in philosophy.
If you quote this signature there'll be 72 copies of Windows ME waiting for you in Heaven.
I second this. In the US, college degrees are actually becoming less important because managers are realizing that, on average, non-technical colleges don't actually help the student get experience. They just get them to jump through hoops, which is not particularly useful when you need someone with experience in problem solving and innovative thinking.
As others have recommended, just look for entry level jobs that will gain you experience. This also will enable you to increase your flexibility, since you'll likely learn many different skills, and have the opportunity to become proficient in all of them. The more diversified you are the more valuable you are.
As a personal testimony, I only have an associates degree in Computer Science (2 years) but I've worked for a couple small companies and have ended up with fairly stable and enjoyable work for the past 10 years.
The way I see it is that you can get to the same place with or without a degree. It just might take a bit longer.
:P
If you know your stuff all you really need is an interview. To get an Interview you need experience backing the technical acronyms on your CV
The only formal training I have received is 13 years in the Marine Corps.
I was an aviation mechanic.
I dabbled in computers as a hobby (Commodore64 and the Amiga) when I got out of the service I was fortunate enough to get a job just running a computer elearning center. As the company grew and also imploded I found myself being the Network admin for the company.
When I grew tired of(The company was not investing in new technology)I searched for 2 years to find something that would advance my career.
There are numerous companies out there who love to waste your time with false promises. Make sure you don't leave your current position and take a vacation that coincides with your start date. That way you have something to fall back on and you don't make the mistake of finding yourself in a company that has the same mentality of the one you are trying to leave.
I got lucky after 2 previous employers who I told I don't think this position is going to work for me. I landed a job where the growth potential was extraordinary. I have learned so much in the 2 years in this new company.
Linux projects, new servers, new desktops, Full support contracts and windows projects. I love it here.
I have no certs. But I did attend a class for Server 2000, Cisco CCNA and CCDP. I never took the tests but the classes taught me a lot of basics about networking and Active directory.
CCNA was important so that I became familiar with the command line within our Cisco Routers and our Pix Firewalls.
Sure I paid a lot for taking those classes but the home study method doesn't work for me.
Heh. Haskell is a novelty teaching language that is seen outside the academic sphere about as often as the Dodo.
Nobody makes a living writing Haskell.
Yes, you can get an IT job without a degree, but it does limit your pool of jobs as many corporations REQUIRE a college degree for certain positions. Many don't care what the degree is in but they do require one.
I meant that universities have outdated equipment and concepts...
For all the people with 10 plus years in the industry, don't think that because it did work and go smooth for all of us way back, the current climate allows it as easely.
So you're under the misguided assumption that University actually teaches you important skills that are used in the pursued career?
Listen: college didn't teach me anything I didn't already know about software engineering. Mostly it just took up my time and my money. Showing a willingness to jump through those hoops for the end goal (a degree) was apparently enough to interest my employer, who hired me as an intern. I learned more working on the job in my first 2 months than I did the entire 4 years of University combined.
Add to this was our University president, who at commencement stated "Remember: an undergraduate degree does not mean you are educated. It simply means that you are educatable."
The whole point he was trying to get across was that we didn't go for an undergraduate degree to learn the subject matter so much as we obtained an undergraduate degree to learn how to learn.
The thought process is "teach a man to learn, and he will learn his entire life".
I have been a Senior Systems Engineer for a company employing over 6,000 people. I was a Senior Security Engineer for a large Medical and Insurance company employing over 270,000 employees and now a Director of IT for a furniture manufacturer. I never finished High School, I've taken two art classes in college and to top things off, I don't even have any tech certifications. Although I am an expert, 90% of my career has been socially engineered. I'm a likable guy. If you are good at what you do and can sell yourself, and education means nothing in IT.
Seek Christ the Lord!
If you're not going to go get the degree, you have to compensate for it by being more competent than you otherwise would have to be to get the same job. When I walk into a job interview people look at my resume, and bang, strike one. I have to make up for that by being better than their other candidates by enough to overcome the bias. You say you're an enthusiast, but almost everybody trying to get an entry level position at any decent company in this industry is to some extent. The question becomes, are you better than most enthusiasts with degrees?
If I had it to do over again, I'd just get a degree. With the economy in the crapper, now's the perfect time to do it. If I didn't love my job and have a mortgage to pay I'd probably do it myself.
By the way, there's always the tech support route. It's real easy to get a tech support job without a degree. Sure, the work sucks, but you get your foot in the door somewhere. If you're good, you can move out of there into a "real" job. The flip side to that is that a resume with nothing but tech support on it might actually be worse than no resume at all. There have been "Ask Slashdots" about that before.
Game... blouses.
Despite never getting my BSEE degree, I have been able to work more or less continually since I decided to switch careers from engineering into computers.
Originally, I was living at home and taking classes for my BSEE, when I had to start working part time jobs for tuition. Gradually, my interest in having money in my pocket began to occlude my vision of graduating, and I went from one job to the next, each time taking steps and making decisions designed to increase my income, at the ultimate expense of my education. I went from full-time classes to three-quarter load to half as my hours and responsibilities at work increased.
Eventually, I got a job as an electronic technician and ratcheted my engineering classes down to part-time. After that, it was merely a matter of time (and a series of jobs as an electronic technician) before I eventually landed a job as a junior engineer while attending night classes. It was there that I first came into contact with professional programming.
It was the early 80's and an idle Apple ][ computer was in the engineering lab, so I started tinkering with machine code and Applesoft BASIC on it and eventually produced an automated testing tool for my company's photocells (the kind that are used to turn on/off streetlights). A rack of photocells was placed on the roof of the building and a cable brought down and connected to two add-on parallel i/o ports; the software would periodically scan the ports and record the time when the photocells switched; this could be correlated against sunrise/sunset times, indicating which cells were defective. Although a simple project, I loved it.
When it became time to look for my next job, I completely eschewed anything related to electrical engineering in favor of writing code, and took an interview for a position that would have made it geographically impossible to continue taking classes without spending an inordinate amount of time traveling. I got the job, and simply stopped taking engineering classes, presumably to continue at some point in the future.
At that time, in 1983, microcomputers, although starting to be widely used, were just emerging from the cachet of being largely hobbyist devices in the eyes of the general public. There was no real specialization yet; we techies did everything, not just programming, but also building them, upgrading them (hardware and software) connecting them to each other over point-to-point serial (RS232), modems, networks, etc.
In the succeeding twenty-five years, I never returned to finishing my electrical engineering degree. Partly this was because it was largely irrelevant for the work I was doing and also because at that time, the alternative, computer science, was practically in its infancy; programming was considered simply an adjunct to what was then referred to as "data processing", which meant COBOL. No one had really even heard of structured, much less object-oriented programming. By the time those concepts started to be widely taught, my own level of experience far surpassed them. Of course, eventually the discipline caught up and passed me, but by then finishing my BSEE would not have positively affected my earning potential in any real way.
Regardless, my lack of degree has never been much of an issue and I've had a reasonably successful career as a computer consultant developing software for hire, until I recently succumbed to the constant pressure of consulting and found a job with a good company.
I wonder if the same kind of career could happen today. I've gone from having to do everything from installing hardware and configuring machines and software to now where I am only writing code for specific PARTS of a subsystem and not allowed near other parts, while NEVER being allowed to so much as install a memory card (Sys Admins do that).
Not sure if I have any direct advice for you beyond perhaps to say that it was once possible to do well without a degree and perhaps by avoiding the "fall-line" of mainstream IT, to borrow a skiing expression, maybe it still is.
"No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up." -- Lily Tomlin
Yes you can, I'm living proof. I have worked for some of the largest companies, and some of the biggest IT projects. That being said, it wasn't easy. Many places will not even look at you without a degree. Often you can't even get your resume past HR and onto hiring managers. If I had it to do over again, well I never really had a choice, so I guess I would do it the same, but given the choice, I would get the degree.
If you want, I'll give you the long version of it, but bottom line is you'll have to start at the bottom (helpdesk) and work your way up. Because a sysadmin tends to work with very critical systems, you'll have to build a reputation of handling more and more responsibility with the same amount of precision. Basically, you'll need to outshine your peers for quite a while.
That being said, I've worked with both degreed and non-degreed people. Experience is the only thing that ever seperated them. Degreed people, I've noticed, tend to complete jobs more often; but I have found that they also tend to think a little too highly of themselves and ignore the people who have been doing it for years.
So, it'll be a struggle, but I, along with quite a few other /.'ers, are living proof that it can be done.
-What have you contributed lately?
Yes, it's definitely possible. Most of the job postings I've seen that specify a degree requirement also say something like "or equivalent experience". Yes, there are a few companies that absolutely require a degree, but most do not. So, you will usually need either a degree or experience to even get the interview.
The fact that a person doesn't have a degree doesn't automatically mean their education is lacking. Not everyone requires the structured environment of a classroom to learn. Many people are driven to learn on their own. It's that drive to learn that's important. I'd take that person over an unmotivated college grad any day as an employee.
In my experience, You are going to need some sort of certifate-- MCP, Networking, MCSE or something like that. I have been in the job market on and off in the southwest region and most jobs here do not specify a BS or a BA, but they definitely want some sort of certificates. You will not be able to get in just on your good looks and the fact that you hack at home :)
Yes, but uou MUST have A LOT of experience in what the company is looking for. Don't think you're going to leave high school and after two years grab a Direct of Infrastructure job. I am a Director of Infrastructure. I have a GED, but I also have 10 years experience at building infrastructures. I started at the very bottom. I was Tech Support for three different companies. (two ISPs and a major Anti-Virus company) Then I became an Computer Operator for a medium size company that was still computing with early 80 era technologies. They allowed me some leeway since they felt I knew how to do a lot of things and for two years I revamped most of their infrastucture. Then we built a new building and they hired a design engineer and he and I worked together designing the new buildings entire infrastucture. That was my foot in the door. I moved to New York and now I've built infrastuctures for several different companies and am not doing it again for a online trading firm.
Depends.
Schools these days target the lowest common denominator in order to keep their graduate and placement rates up. It's a fine balance between reputation and the bottom-line. Unfortunately modern institutions are increasingly concerned with profits and find it difficult to resist the temptation to give a few more grads a free ticket to impress their investors/beneficiaries.
It's also not really fair to exclude people of a certain economic fair who may not have been able to afford the luxury of a college or university education. Speaking from experience, I came from a poor family and couldn't afford four years at ever-increasing tuition rates on a part-time wage. That fact has no relation to my intelligence or capability -- I work on web, computer graphics, and computer vision technology and I never spent a day in university or college.
I might try joining an institution some day, but my hopes of finding a more rigorous and dialectic education remain dashed. Too many institutions are monastic and profit-driven factories. Boring.
I'm sure I've sat across the interview table with people who have the same opinions as you. I obviously didn't get hired by them. In hindsight, I'm rather glad. The people who do tend to hire me have a broader insight into reality.
No degree. No certs. Went through the whole CNE 4.1 bit but never bothered with the test. My ability is what people come to me for. None of my top guys have degrees. None of them have certs. They are all too busy.
I have never seen a degree program that could improve the troubleshooting process that goes on inside someone's head. A lack of functional fixedness is a major plus and that can't be taught either.
We tend to laugh at MCSEs and people with Computer Science degrees. They come out of their training with ideas that need to be beaten out of them to make them useful. (Three users on a network! Lets install a domain!!! (GAAACK!?)) We've tried hiring a few people with MCSEs and A+ certs. They are all gone. Degrees and certs do not delineate a person's ability. You are better off asking applicants how they would solve various technical issues so you can see their brain at work.
Lots of customers ask me how their kids/relatives can get into the business. I tell them that a certification might get them an entry level job but the real important bits are how they think and how much experience they have. They need to be the type of person who remembers every bad thing that ever happened to them and what they had to solve those things. Then they have to go out into the world and let bad things happen to them for about 10 years. Then they will be good techs.
Programming is a totally different side of IT. A degree would actually make a difference there. Companies also love to snap up young programmers too.
Maybe you should have taken an English major?
Obligatory Joke: Do you know how to tell an English major when you meet one?
It's easy: They say "Would you like fries with your meal?" instead of "Want fries with that?"
All the jobs I've held have had an "... or equivalent experience" clause in the position description. As a professional software engineering consultant (18+ years consulting experience) nobody cares if I got the degree or not.
That said, it's not easy to get in the door at most organizations as a programmer without a degree, although if you could demonstrate your ability and you had the attitude and aptitude for the job, I know I'd hire you.
On the other hand, I turned down a job offer from Google, because their mentality there is such that you can't have a career there without a Ph.D.
...if Google don't want people without a PhD, why did they extend you a job invitation for you to turn down?...
My cousin starts his IT job for an oil field company today. He has no degree. He called me up before the interview early last week asking for advice, as he had no idea what he was in for. I told him that as long as he asked a bunch of questions everything should be fine.
I HAVE taken an English major. She's my girlfriend.
As a person that is an application developer and a consultant* and without any university degree, let me say that YES, you can get a job in IT, even a well payed one.
But the problem is that you have to be in the upper 10% in knowledge and talent. If you are mediacore, then you will have hard time to get in. And I am 24 now.
* - Not freelancer and not self employed
The boss that promoted me from a Engineering Tech to an Engineer said "We all have 98.6 degrees, you've shown you can do the job". You have to work harder. I am telling my kids to go to College more for the social experience and the parties.
There's a lot of us out here with degrees that are having a hell of a time getting jobs. Partly, it's competition, but to a larger degree, it seems to be HR departments (95%) and recruiters (apparently down to 50%-60%) who *insist* on not only degrees, but want certifications (even when they're irrelevant), *and* want you to be "fresh", as though we're some sort of fruit that bruises and spoils if we're not working now, or through last week at the latest.
As for "or equivalent experience" - back in '88, I was living in Austin, TX. At the time, I only had an AA (two year degree, for those outside the US), but over seven years experience. I applied for a job with the state. Had a good interview, then got a call from the manager at their HR (someone named Genie), who told me, in so many words, that although the ad said "or equivalent experience", she'd decided that she wouldn't accept that, and so wouldn't allow me to be hired, since I didn't have a 4-year degree.
It's bad out here.
mark
Touche!
(I would type that properly but slash doesn't do UTF-8...)
hmmm....
Anyway - I'm a well payed CTO (33 years old) got and conditional offer to work at Google this year (very interesting terms). I studied Physics with the Philosophy of Scince Msci, but dropped out.
If you're bright, you have ideas, and you can make them a reality, then you will will do well. a degree, is only good for proving you can get a degree.
Because you can - or because you should?
It less that you need the degree and more that a degree makes it easier for your.
-- dnl
Exactly. All these people saying "OF COURSE you don't need a degree!!!" and posting stories about how they were able to break into IT and get a six-figure salary after dropping out of the 4th grade need to realize that it isn't the 1990s any more. Back then every company suddenly needed IT workers, and there was a terrible shortage; companies would hire anyone breathing if they knew how to set up a web site, regardless of formal training. Now every job posting will usually get multiple applications from people with degrees, and companies are able to be choosy.
I dropped out of colledge when I was offered a full time sys-admin position. Became friends with the webmaster. The rest is history. Paid well, lots of perks. A degree is only good for getting your first real job. If you can get that far without one go for it.
In my experience the more dynamic your capabilities the better off you will be. I have M.S. in CS which helps me get a foot in the door. I have been turned down by plenty companies who did not like my mixed background of web development / system administration or my degree. I am very glad those companies turned me away! At my current job(small company) I get to do web development, system administration, and project management. I do not always get to play/learn the technologies that interest me so I work with a non-profit on the side that lets me satisfy the need for creativity and gets me experience in the technologies that do interest me. Volunteer your skills for good, help a non-profit and gain some experience.
Yes, I said "once", and that was because I was relaying a specific anecdote about how a college degrees and certs aren't everything. A college education can give you a depth of understanding that isn't otherwise available. Notice I said (and emphasized) "can". It can help you develop that understanding, but only if you're a smart person who pays attention and works at it. Lots of people aren't.
Like I said, lots of people skate by and come out learning some things, but still being inferior to someone with a little common sense, a little experience, and a half-decent work ethic.
I will note, however, that a formal CompSci degree seems to be far more helpful in producing good programmers than good support people and sysadmins. My theory is that being a good programmer involves much more knowledge about how things ideally should work, whereas support/administration is often more about knowing how things tend to break when they don't work the way they ideally should. Knowing how things break in the real world tends to be something you can learn a little more easily from experience.
NETWORK NETWORK NETWORK.
you get jobs at places like LUG's, special interest groups, monthly chat-and-drink meet ups, hobby meetings, the library, etc.
there is always room for "qualified" drones to fill out rosters with "acceptable risk" employees, ones that are likely to output a consistient boring amount every year and follow the rules - but the bulk of real work in most IT shops is consultants, people who are too weird or far out or unemployable to get in the normal way but are willing work outside the box or long long hours at home to make stuff "really work." ... Don't expect medical benefits and alot of luxuries that Well Branded Workers (tm) get, but there is plenty of room to work.
Just don't be overconfident of your abilities and maybe work as hard on your social and interpersonal skills because thats what catches up most of the skilled sneak-in workers and consultants. Wearing clean clothes helps too.
--- ask me about nihilism, I will have nothing to tell you.
In many of the past jobs that I've had, I've often been laid with the burdon of assisting or handling in the interview process for new applicants. With virtually every new hire that had little to no experience and a shinny new CS degree, it required a good 3-6 months of hand holding just to get that person to a point where they could contribute. My personal belief is that structured education institutions cannot become proficient, organize a course, create a sylabus, and then offer a class available fast enough to be a current state in the working market. Technology simply moves too fast, and being a year or two behind makes your marketability limited and legacy.
I've been the Sr. Software engineer, system administrator, or CTO of the last 5 companies I've worked at, and although I have a couple college degrees, I've never taken so much as one computer class at school. Books and information on the web will be available and very comprehensive long before a school offers them, although that is a different style of learning and not for everyone. There is a distinct difference however between learned principles from school and real world application, and they are rarely the same - at least that's my take on it.
- Davey
What did you just call me?
University doesn't only teach you how to sandbox your users, it also teaches to
1) Submit work at the highest quality every time (A+ work)
2) Show up on time (I had a university prof who would lock the door at a minute after the hour)
3) Work with a vast array of people in an environment where you don't get to choose.
4) Time management. Anybody who has juggled five courses, a job, a girlfriend and a kid knows exactly what this means.
So yeah, a University grad usually brings these things to the table. Plus they also know to dress in a suit in an interview
Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
I was hired as a IT Technician with my current company after working as a Production Controller / Aircraft Mechanic. Within a year I was promoted to the IT/IS Manager posistion. I did not have a degree, any technical certifications, and my last work experience was for my high school 6 years prior. I was able to show an aptitude and gained the neccesary knowledge on my own time. I have since received an Associate's degree in Information Technology. My theory has always been the degree will help get past HR and maybe an interview, experience is the rest. With the lack of a degree try to use networking to find a job where a friend can recommend you.
A degree doesn't mean all that much. It means you've been to university and stuck around long enough that you got a degree, but I've seen lots of incompetents get degrees.
Work experience doesn't mean much either. There are plenty of idiots with over 10 years of work experience.
What really matters is if you're good, and if you can show that you're good. The economy doesn't matter. There is always a demand for people who are good (but only in real boom times is there a demand for crappy programmers, like in the late '90s).
So how do you show you're good? The easy one is to work on open source projects. You can show off your leet programming skills, and if you're really good, you may become a committer on that project. If you're a committer on Apache httpd, every recruiter with a brain will want you as his server administrator.
I'm not a sys admin, but my impression is that every single good sys admin has his own overly elaborate computer network at home with which they experiment and learn. Do it. Play. Run your own network, your own server, your own website, and do funny stuff with it. Start a blog about system administration. None of this will get you a big name, but it gives a prospective employer something to look at when he wants to know if you're good.
So is it hard to get a job without a degree? That depends. I don't have a degree (dropped out about a year before my MSc, and BSc didn't exist here back then), one of my more successful programmer friends dropped out years before that. At my previous job, several people (including a server admin) didn't have degrees. And despite my lack of degree, I successfully switched to a new (and more exciting) job two months ago.
Now a lot of companies do care about degrees, so you'd better not waste any energy on them. They're depressing, and you wouldn't want to work there anyway. Go for the small, exciting, innovative companies that are capable of telling if you're good. And, of course, you have to be good. If you're not, you'd better get a degree.
I can't say for sure in these economically questionable times, but it's not impossible to succeed with college. It can't hurt, but I find that experience and motivation trump education any day.
I started in the mid 90s as an entry level developer with just a high school diploma. I bought a PC and toyed around with a bit, did some simple stuff in TurboC, and landed a job doing some very basic VB3. From there I kept reading, kept learning, and kept moving up. I was the lead developer on a couple fairly large projects, did some consulting, and right now I'm the IT Director at a small company making a comfortable six figure salary.
seriously? for a technical role?
I could see for a professional engineering role, MechE, EE, ChemE, Biologist or something like that, you don't really want bridges or chemical weapons built by amateurs, but for a technical role?
Respectfully, that seems too limiting.
Anybody working in the IT field will tell you that degrees don't necessary mean that the person is competent at their job. In fact, most of the time, people that flaunt their degrees and certifications, are those that can do the least when push comes to shove. So the only thing a piece of paper will help you do - is get your foot in the door at a place where you have no contacts... at the end, your papers don't say anything about how good of an employee you will be - I will take past experience and opinion of others before any certificates, when interviewing someone for a job. It always helps to have some business contacts to recommend you - I would recommend you start building your network at LinkedIn or some other professional networking site...
Bow before me, for I am root.
Well said. As a "senior infrastructure engineer" at a $20billion company, with no degrees or certs, I have to agree with everything you said.
Programmers definitely need formal education, but I've found that admins without a degree are often better at the job (there are always exceptions of course).
so the assumption is that you can't learn if you don't have a degree?
I agree. While I did go to college for a while, I never finished because I started getting the kinds of jobs I was going to college for.
Without a degree, I have worked for Microsoft, Intel, Novell, and several other companies; all with a good salary.
I have had one interview with a guy who, once he realized I didn't have a degree, threw a girly tantrum about the importance of college, but most companies just want to know that you can do the work and are more than willing to accept real-world experience in place of a degree.
see, that's the point I can appreciate.
This is exactly the path I ended up taking.
I blew my first opportunity at college. I simply wasn't ready for the freedom. I slacked off, and didn't take it seriously. I did "OK" grade-wise, but lost much of my financial aid, and couldn't make it for a second year.
Spent the next few years maturing. Moved out of my folks house after finding that I simply couldn't live with them anymore. Moved in with my then-girlfriend (now wife) in her college dorm for a while. Eventually got our first apartment. Was in shit retail jobs for a few years.
Networking is everything. One of the guys I knew from a retail gig ended up manager of a dial-up tech-support department, and got me a job there. Busted my ass in that tech-support hellhole, sponged every bit of knowledge I could, and eventually moved into Web Design, then Web Development. I kept picking up server admin experience along the way.
Got a job offer on the east coast for more than twice what I was making, doing a webmaster/admin gig. Moved. The bubble burst, the company went under, and I was unemployed for a little more than a year and a half. What sucked was that the jobs I was applying for either rejected me out of hand (no degree), or were just far enough outside my experience that they didn't want to take a chance. I hadn't built up a significant enough volume of experience to open those doors without the degree.
Finally, after more applications and resumes than I can count, I got a sysadmin position at a small company. Intolerable conditions and expectations were the order of the day. After about 3 years of that, I needed to get out.
And that's how I landed my current job, as the second sysadmin at a slightly larger company. I'd finally accumulated a large enough body of experience in my field that my lack of a degree wasn't a concern. I had exceptional references, which I'm sure helped quite a bit. Great people here, and a much better environment. We're understaffed - but then again, who isn't? In this economy, I'd much rather have too much work (and reasonable expectations) than not enough!
I am 23 years old with no degree. In 2004 I started work for a marketing company doing cold calls (everyone has to have a job). During that time, I made a few suggestions on how to increase the responsiveness of our auto-dialer and get better results. After a few of those suggestions were implemented I was handed the system to manage and enhance as I saw fit.
Then my company wanted to increase its web presence. With my High School Web Design and Creative Design classes, I put the company on track for a giant web presence (you've probably seen my work if you've looked for a car in any southern metropolitan area).
Fast forward a couple months and I was put back to making cold calls because the web business hadn't taken off (yet). Here is where the tough choice comes in. Do you continue making calls, or do you HOPE that experience puts you elsewhere. Well I went on hope.
I started working in a DSL help desk for $10 an hour ($5 less than what i was making). I sat in the call center for 2 months before making supervisor, and then product specialist (ended up going from $10 to $28 an hour). I felt myself in another dead end, so I bailed yet again.
I worked tech support at a Hosting Provider for about 4 months before making Jr. System Admin. At this point in my life I had NEVER seen or even touched a linux system. I spent a year and a half as a Jr. and realized that my boss was going to be the end of my sanity and my career if I didn't leave, so I left.
I got a job at SAAS company working as a System Admin for their servers (over 100 Linux Servers). I get paid very very very well (imagine what other people that are 23 with no degree...or even with degree make). And that job came from 10 months of web design experience, 6 months of tech support (total) and a year and a half of admin experience. I'm not saying my story is typical, what im really getting at is if you can digest computer languages and systems with ease, and sell yourself as a million dollars, you will have no problem making it as an admin or a programmer. Many of the techies in my office dont have degrees (no one in the sys admin side has one), and I would love to put us against a lot of other degree touting individuals when it comes to information about the field. It all has to do with how quickly you can adapt. If you can do it...You'll succeed. If you can get yourself noticed for the excellent work and ideas you produce, you'll succeed. The meek may inherit the earth, but they will be waiting quite a while. Get out there and sell yourself and you'll SUCCEED!
I went to college. I don't have a "degree" per say, but I received two diplomas from local colleges. Now mind you, the college is long gone now, and a lot of people were screwed by them, but I did get something. No, I don't have a university degree and I really have no intention of getting one.
What do I do? I'm a product consultant now with the world's largest enterprise software company.
How did I start? Did crap work for the government. My schooling got me an unpaid internship at the government where I did some programming for them. That lead to two other contract jobs for the same government outfit. I earned those contracts based on my good work I did previously
When I got out of school, I worked for the school district, then as a programmer for IBM, and eventually as a sysadmin for a box manufacturing company.
How did I get to where I am now? By proving myself as someone of value.
Having a degree is nice, and I will admit that maybe down the road, it will hinder my desire to get into management, but I won't know til I get there. I make a good pay (same level as my peers) but I had to work hard to get here. My first IT job was in the summer of 1993. That was when I had the crap government job. Throw in 3 years of delivering pizza, and a year back in school, then I got back into IT. I got hired onto where I am now in 2006.
I had to start somewhere and prove that I was valuable enough to "climb the ladder".
Any company that won't hire someone because they don't have a degree is not a company I want to work for. Companies that realize that real value comes from the person, and their experience, not the diploma or education they have, are the ones that you want to aim for.
Here in Canada it's a tough place to find IT work, but there's always somewhere to start, regardless of education.
No matter how fast computers get, you'll always be waiting - Matt Klem
I'd hire the one that did better in the interview. Of the two, which one of them does my gut tell me would do a better job.
The diploma does not dictate the person.
If I couldn't decide based on my interview, I'd request a second interview with different questions, different scenarios until I knew which one was better for job.
No matter how fast computers get, you'll always be waiting - Matt Klem
no, the assumption is that if you have a degree, there is a higher probability that you can learn or else you wouldn't have made it through university in the first place. depending on what university you are from, the probability increases or decreases.
for those who haven't attended university, the employer basically has no idea. do you know how terribly bad it is to judge someone on, at most, 24 hours worth of day-long contact? this is assuming a rigorous 3 1-day-long interview sessions for that specific person. that's probably more time than most organizations are willing to give (rightly or wrongly).
it's hard to tell after just a few hours and a resume what a person can do. people who do exceptionally well at interviews still bomb out after a few weeks of work. at least if they have a degree that is just one more piece of evidence in their favor. but to claim that that degree says they know everything there is to know about a specific subject (be it Computer Science or Secondary Education or Underwater Basketweaving) is silly. it's even a stretch to claim that what they do know is worth relying on; i've seen many college graduates who are completely lacking in understanding and experience in what i consider to be incredibly key areas. the fact that they can pick up on it with a little bit of extra effort on both of our parts is what separates the good employees from the bad. i have more faith in a relatively random person with a college degree doing that than a relatively random person without a college degree. i wouldn't bet on either, but I'd be more surprised if the former fails than the latter.
I've been working as a programmer since 1997, with no degree. I currently work in genetics research.
So yeah, it's completely possible. I just bought books and taught myself, it's not that hard.
If you're looking for help desk workers you may be right. For more intellectually demanding jobs, a PhD here or there might prove more beneficial.
Mod parent up! If you have a genuine interest in technology, you will educate yourself naturally outside of the structured education system and end up with a more apropos and current knowledge.
ayottesoftware.com
One important piece of the higher-education requirement isn't the degree you have but the fact that you have one. Why is that important? Two words: critical thinking.
This is a very broad and general assessment, but I think most will agree: Primary education in the US is, unfortunately, mostly focused on rote-learning curriculum designed around standardized tests. A college education introduces creative and critical thinking skills as well as a well-rounded buffet of experiences and information. Also, getting through college is quite different than high school since you're usually not living with family and you're learning to be disciplined enough to get yourself to class and do your homework.
It's quite possible for many people to reap those benefits without setting foot on a university campus--but it certainly only adds to your quiver of skills to have the education. Employers are looking for self-starters with high marks. Experience in lieu of education is second best to education AND experience. It's getting very competitive--the ones with the best resumes get the best jobs.
I have a bachelor's degree in music composition but I work in the IT sector. The fact that I have a degree in anything has helped quite a bit--the music bit is actually quite helpful because of the left brain/right brain balance. Now, if I were trying to get a job as a hardware engineer, that degree wouldn't help me much so the degree should match something your career aspirations for more specialized type of work.
My advice to the poster: get a degree even if it takes 5 or 6 years. You'll benefit in all areas of your life with a better education.
I might know what I'm talkin' about, but then again, this is Slashdot...
It is possible, but don't expect to get the job of your dreams right out of the gate.
I had a BA in History with what amounted to a minor in CS.
I spent the summer earning an MCSE while looking for a job.
Took a job as a Network Administrator (actually I was their whole IT department for most of my stay there) at a small company for 3 years at a low salary to gain experience and work on some other certs.
Moved to a better paying job as a Network Analyst for a municipal government nearer to my home.
No CS/Comp Eng. degree, and I'm making over $65k...but it's been 9 years since I started that first job at $32k
Totally shameless plug for our podcast where we just talked about how much school really matters. Of course the episode was totally biased (all university guys) so we naturally came to the conclusion that we didn't waste our money on our fancy degrees.
I know for programmers there are a lot of "theoretical" topics you learn in university that you never think you'll need, but when you do, you'll be thankful you have it. For example, algorithm performance, compiler construction, or database theory are actually quite applicable in most jobs, just not everyday. When you do utilize it, you (and hopefully your team) really appreciate the knowledge.
http://basementcoders.com/
Basically: given two people of equal knowledge, one with a college degree and one without, barring any personality concerns, I'll pick the university degree over the person without one any day.
I would agree with you 100%, even though I do not have a degree and I am very well paid in IT. That said, the easiest way to get around the 'degree = better' mindset is to make sure that someone can NEVER take you and another applicant with a degree and compare you both apples to apples. Be the orange. The only way to do this is to be smarter than the other guy, and all the smarts in the world are not going to get you the job if you come off like an idiot, so you will need to be able to speak and sell yourself too. If you do this you will never lose to someone of equal knowledge with a degree. Also keep in mind that if this is how you are going to job search in this manner you have to be selective. Don't apply for jobs with a shotgun (otherwise you will be applying for jobs that you are not 100% qualified - which means you will not be the orange). Pick your jobs and follow them through to the end.
-matt
$diff terrorists hippies
$
$rm -rf *terrorists *hippies
Depending on where you live, HR departments might weed out candidates based on degrees. I know I wouldn't stand a chance if I wanted to apply for other jobs in the east coast (North Carolina specifically).
I dropped out of university on my second year, but since I have Linux experience, I got hired to do sysadmin work for a start-up company in CA in 99 (prior to that I've been doing other work not related to IT). We're no longer start-up, having been acquired by a much larger company :-) So ... if you want to get in, you might want to start small, and work your way up. It's more likely that small companies will not care about your degrees.
I became so frustrated with watching the contractor futz around attempting to get the user accounts set up, and getting answers like "Sometimes it just does that" - Really, he actually said that! - So we just had to fire them, and got our money back for the server.
That left us in a dilemma - So, over coffee at the local coffee house before work one day, I mentioned in passing that I could have the whole shop up and running in an afternoon if we went all Mac.... Now this post isnt going to be some Mac-Zelot Rant, Im just saying that you can find the right situation to get yourself in place as an IT dude (or dudette).
We grew from five to thirty-five users in a year, I sure learned quickly what I didnt know about ethernet management(!), but the important part is; Dig around, and get yourself some face to face time with the right people (decision makers), and sell yourself - It Can Happen.
I live in Michigan, and there are a lot of tech-savvy companies up here, but it seems all the good IT folks move away ; )
Cheers,
TJ
change it.
Sure, you can find a job without a degree. It'll take you longer, you'll have to do garbage-work more often, your pay scale will be lower, and about 4 years into the job when you've got real-world experience comparable to what you'd have gotten in getting the degree, they'll replace you with someone who has a degree, and you still won't have a degree. TLDR: you want fries with that?
I think Philip Greenspun's Career Guide for Engineers and Computer Scientists is probably the most inspiring and useful web page you'll ever view.
"You'll get nothing, and you'll like it!"
Id say if you are looking for a Sysadmin job you don't need a four year degree in CS. It works the other way around too. If you were to have a four year degree in CS it would be a total waste of your education to then work as a sysadmin.
The university degree will NOT (I hope) taech yo the "technology of the day". They should be covering subjects that don't go out of style. Math is like that (Nobody every says "deferential equations are so 1970's")
On the other hand those support jobs, like Sysadmin and network instalations and help desk and feil repair really do depend on you knowing the "technology of the day" which universities don't typicaly teach.
I do had the CS background and I've worked in software engineering in the aerospace industry. I've worked on radar signal processors, rocket telemetry systems, guidance and navigation and secure message processing, simulations and so on. For this kind of work you want a degree in CS, math or engineering and hopefully an MS degree. For this kind of work a degree is an absolute requirement. but for work that suports a company's computing infrastructure most don't have degrees.
How ever thing about what will hapen when you are 45 or 50 years old. If you want to be in management by then some kind of degree, maybe in business or an MBA is very helpful
I'm sure it's theoretically possible to start out without a degree right now, but he'd make his life 1000x easier by just getting the degree.
I would suggest he start college, but at the same time start pounding the pavement hard looking for a gig, and dump school after he's been at a solid gig for a while. I don't regret skipping the four years at college and the $25K-75K in school debt I would've accumulated.
Without a degree, I started as a tech and was an administrator for a Mitel PBX, Symantec Corporate, Exchange, and a number of other things I can't think of off the top of my head. When my director was leaving, he was going to promote me to his level then our boss brought in his software engineer friend (which by no means makes you qualified to be an IT director, very true in this case) and made him director. I ended up fixing his "improvements" over a few weeks and outright quit with no notice when he and I had it out.
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
Have to agree as well... I am now working as a senior developer for a major online university in the US, and have no degree. Although, I am probably the only person working on this floor without a degree and/or certification. So ymmv. I think it really comes down to experience. If you get your foot in the door working at a more entry-level developer, there are lots of places that will hire people with very little experience for developers at $12-15/hr USD, which is about the same as a lot of interns make. You can gain some experience, and move up. After 4-5 years you are in a better position than new graduates tend to be.
It is harder to move into management roles, but a friend of mine who left high school early, got his GED, and went into the Army for a few years is now in senior management at a major airplane mfg, and military contractor. It's not easy going it without a degree, especially if you are interested in going into management, but it is possible.
Some companies won't consider someone without a degree, others will consider equivalent experience. Above all, if you can do the job, and have done the job, you should be okay.
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
I have been doing tech work for 10+ years and for personal reasons had to pull up and move. The job market sucked, so I just filed a DBA and started my own business. Made my own job. Done. :)
I got a job without having a degree. I was going to school at the time though to prepare for the CCNA. My instructor noted my proficiency and recommended me for a position at a local network management company. So yes it is possible, but in my case I knew the right people.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the question was "You think that's a typical or representative situation?", rather than "Is there anybody else out there who's done the same?".
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I dropped out of a CompSci degree after the first year. I took a developer job with a fledgling hosting company, where I worked as a developer, a sysadmin and, finally, a network engineer. The job was easy to get, because the company was run by inexperienced, dope-smoking 20-somethings who just needed someone with a lot of technical knowledge who could get the job done. The experience I got there, and being able to grow with the company, meant that I was able to write a great resume.
That resume got me an interview for a Software Engineer position with a well-known anti-virus company, even though the job description listed a degree as a requirement. I presented myself well in the interview, wowed them on the C test, and had a job offer 20 minutes after leaving the interview. That's where I formalised my understanding of OO analysis and design, and really got to grips with the intricacies of C++.
After that, it was pretty easy. I worked as a Software Engineer for a company in the telecoms sector, after doing well in the interview and being the first candidate to score 100% on both of their coding tests. As far as I know, I was the only developer there without a degree. After all, a degree was one of their stated requirements. (Actually, I might have got the job because they needed someone to play lead guitar in the company band.)
I now work as a Security Specialist for a billion-dollar software company, finding the security holes that developers have created and left open, and on a higher grade than several of my degree-bearing colleagues (including Cambridge graduates). Again, as far as I know I'm the only engineer here without a degree, and a degree is listed as a requirement.
So the moral of my story is this: if you're one those people who has a natural aptitude for this kind of work, and have developed knowledge and experience on your own time, then there is no reason that you can't be as successful as someone with a degree. Don't ask if it's possible -- just go and do it!
(Incidentally, one of my responsibilities in this job and my previous one has been interview other job candidates, and it's very clear that having a degree and a resume that looks like it has the right experience means very little. Once you talk to these people, you realise that often they struggle with the very basics. I've seen so many alleged C/C++ programmers who can't even get their heads around pointers.)
Did it teach you what anecdotal evidence is?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
most places are willing to part on the school requirement if you have experience. but usually, it's somewhat heavy-handed for those without degrees. such as: BS in computer science or equivalent experience [which usually turns out being like 3-5 years doing whatever is related]. I know that degrees can be utter crap these days, but I guess it's supposed to prove that you're motivated or something [or that you can stick with a plan and won't use this new job as a stepping stone; being able to stay the course]. I'm just rambling now. just my 2 cents.
I have an associates in engineering, several certifications and work as the CTO of a $300 mil a year business. I am intimately involved in the interviews and hiring of each and every new member (directors to help desk) of the (40 man) IT department. As many commenters have pointed out, experience trumps everything. In fact a degree makes an impression on me at the entry level positions but doesn't really matter to me when i am looking for skilled candidates. And unless it is a hard degree (math, computer science, engineering) I don't really consider it at all. I am just as likely to be impressed with certifications as with degrees. The gist is. If you have a well put together resume, have followed the normal procedure for applying (i don't respond to cold emails with resumes attached) and show clearly within your resume that you have a real passion for your particular area of IT I will bring you in for an interview. I believe in tough technical interviews so be prepared to back up what you put on your resume (Don't say you are a networking expert if you've never heard of the OSI model. Don't try to BS an answer; if you truly don't know it admit that and explain what you would do to find the answer). Make sure you check your resume for typos (don't just assume that the spell check fixed them correctly, especially on technical resumes). All of that said. I have never hired a level 1 help desk with a degree. I have also never hired an entry level programmer. But I have promoted help desk folks to development positions. You may have to get into the department before you can get into your core specialty. Just make sure that once you've proven yourself in the job you got that you make it clear what the job you want is.
Perhaps they were impressed that he knew the difference between a job and a career?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
A college degree? Who needs that?!?! The only piece of paper I need for my job at Initech is a TPS Report! =)
And I do mean GOOD! I don't have a degree but I worked my way into the position from electronics tech up to test engineer then to software engineer. I have never really been formally an IT person but I work in IT as a systems analyst and developer and often as the only DBA and developer. I mostly work for small start up companies but even then I have 30 years of experience behind me and I still struggle to prove I have the skills to do the job. My advice is get at least an AA and all the certificates you can get. But a BA/BS will open more doors. As an enthusiast you haven't a prayer.
Why bother
I am 24, and make about 50k a year with good benefits doing administration with another guy for a company with about 150 employees.
As evidenced by the mass numbers of replies, yes you can succeed without a degree. However, unless you plan on a lead or "self-made" then your growth cycle is likely to be longer.
The knowledge associated with the various degrees is useful to the job you will be doing. For example, if you program but have never understood the "Big O" of various algorithms, then you will inevitably encounter a problem where you'll need to learn the concept. So yes you can be successful, but you will (at some point) end up learning much of the material included in a degree or your growth will be stopped.
As an engineer with no degree I'm glad not to be part of your organization. What a bunch of bullshit.
Why bother
I was a self-taught hacker kid in the late 70's.. I took a year of comp-sci but did poorly because I spent all my time hacking 4.2BSD instead of doing my math... Talking to my uncle-in-law, who was a programmer, he said "A degree shows that you can be taught. Experience shows that you can be employed.". I've kept that little sentiment in the back of my mind and over the years, I've seen lots of people with Bsc's and Msc's in computer science who were almost completely unemployable. 25 years later, I still don't have a degree and it's hurt me a bit in larger corporations with short sighted HR departments but I recently ended up at a company that could not, would not hire me full time due to HR policy, but really did need my services. So they hired me on contract for almost twice what I'd be making as an employee (gross); and they're laying off some of my co-workers while simultaneously extending my contract. I won't get severance if I get laid off, but I'm saving up my cash in lieu of the possibility I'll find myself out of work. I have over a years worth of money in the bank, and at the beginning of my second 1-year contract... If you don't get the degree, it will still be possible if you're competent and a team player; but it will be a longer road...
As a Mgr., I think having a degree is important for the following reasons:
1) Degrees are often a pre-qualify tool for HR along with experience. Together, they provide Mgmt. with peace-of-mind that they don't have a bunch of hacks working for them.
2) While it is possible to get an IT job without a degree, you'll increasingly be competing with others that have it. Given a choice, Mgrs. will generally prefer the person with a degree.
3) Certs complement degrees and experience, they're not a replacement for either.
4) Exposure to a broad range of topics directly and indirectly related to IT
Unfortunately, attaining a degree has become so costly in the US that many have decided not to pursue it. This is the real issue that needs to be addressed.
I believe education at all levels should be free
I have been in many interviews. I could have told them that I had a Ph.D. and they'd believe me but not care, and jump straight to the experience portion.
So people that don't have that kind of money are pretty much fucked, eh?
Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
Speaking from experience, it is possible to attain an admin position without a degree, but as has been pointed out, it will take longer to find, and you'll start at a lower salary, but it's possible. I would start by looking for smaller, locally-owned and operated companies that need an IT professional, but don't think they can afford one, and try to work something out with them. Also, a couple of basic certifications won't hurt you, and they're cheaper and quicker than a college degree. Best of luck to you, Riff
It's like the Nike Commercial, which I didn't get for a long time.
Just Do it!
Sure sounds so simple, and it is in a way.
You just start doing it.
There are companies that hire based on tests and papers, they usually get OK people but more importantly the managers covered there asses.
Smaller companies are interested in those to can get the job done, to hell with the degrees and certificates. This is where to start.
Set up your box, in a Colo, around $100 per month.
And Start doing things, setting up sites, hosting other people, scripting. Setting up services.
Then start feeding back into the FOSS community with bug reports asking and answering questions etc.
I find if your the guy answering questions, jobs soon follow. www.videotechnology.com has been my bread and butter for a long time. I don't sell anything, just field questions on the subject and occasionally write something useful.
My name is now in the Linux Kernel too, that helps. And over enough time I have so much experience that seldom do I have any problems getting accepted. It's just with the Big names that I get stonewalled, for example getting into a E-bay, Yahoo or Google, which is odd since I taught some of there early sysadmins on how to set up their networks at the Silicon Valley BSD users group. (svbug)
So stop whining and just do it, and keep doing it.
and eventually you will be going places. Since those with certificates only know what they trained for, those that are self taught, can get up to speed on anything.
I am going to respond to a few things I have seen in here.
It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.
College just shows you had some privilege in life. This a crock of shit, about being able to compete. So far I have help 3 people finish there Masters Thesis and one PhD Thesis. These guys couldn't complete this on there own, on the other hand I am more then capable of competing work, but just can't afford to sit around for 10 years in school to get my PhD. and there it little point in anything less for me at this time.
I started making money with electronics repair when I was 12, and have had to support my self 100% since I was 16. Where was my chance to attend school where I get the luxury to take my time to learn something?
For all of you that think a degree is needed, bite me.
I am always doing that which I can not do, in order that I may learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso
I don't even check whether or not someone has attended college when I look at a resume. However, HR insists on putting down 'college BS required'.
.... if someone has the means to attend college, I would never advise against it. I just wouldn't advise someone to go into large scale debt to do it. Live at home or attend part time. Put on your resume 'Attending college and working towards a BS in whatever'.
I would argue that not going to college shows how smart someone is by getting into the work force 4 years early and not spending big bucks. My salary has consistently been at or above the average for whatever part of IT I was working in. I took courses based on what my employer needed my skills to be, not on what some college thought I needed, and used tuition reimbursement to cover several of them. The studies that show 'college degrees mean X% more in pay' are bogus, they may show correlation, but they don't show cause. Since people who are smarter and more motivated tend to go to college, of course they make more money later in life. It doesn't mean college had anything to do with it.
Smart, motivated people don't need degrees. Average people need degrees to suggest they might be smarter than they really are.
HOWEVER
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
payed? you are obviously too well PAID and undereducated for your job!
If you can demonstrably code and as a sysadmin demonstrate you know your systems then that is WAY more important than a piece of paper. I have interviewed a lot of people w/ degrees that can't code and have little real interest in or knowledge about building software or infrastructure or much of anything else actually needed. Getting that first job may be a challenge. But doing well on one is the doorway to other interviews. Successful involvement in an Open Source project is a good entry for programmer types. If nothing else works then do some volunteer sysadmin stuff for some non-profit for a while.
I always and only consider the person and what they demonstrably know and/or have a passion for. The degree is nearly irrelevant to me except in the negative sense of "I can't believe they have CS degree blah-blah and can't even code up a very simply b-tree walker".
I too have had several great high paying IT jobs with only 1 year of college and 5 years of crypto in the Army. College helps mostly when you are just starting out, it gets you in the door. Once you've had a good job with good references in IT, especially 5-10 years worth, it makes less of a difference. The military will really help you out. Many hiring managers will be ex-military and recognize your worth. Also, many managers that I've had regard the military higher because for many careers, it shows that you can do more than what college requires. Regardless, you'll have to have something compelling to offer. Every job I've had listed a college degree as a requirement, but obviously it wasn't. If you have experience, great. If not, then you'll have to convince the hiring manager that you're smart, motivated and will work for less, or maybe on contract until you prove yourself. I learned a lot on my first job with EDS. It didn't pay great at first, but after several years it did and it really helped propel me in my next and next jobs.
HTH
The majority of the worst programmers/developers I've worked with had degrees, the absolute worst had doctorates or masters degrees in computer science or math. Most of the best developers and architects I've worked with were self taught and had no college degree. In fact, there was one person that we interviewed a while back that I really liked. But three of the interviewers felt like you did, no degree, no job. We discussed many times whether we should hire him over some other people that had Masters degrees but lacked experience. In the end, we hired the person without the college degree and that individual was the best thing that ever happened to the company. He met every deadline, had motivation and imagination like no one else I've met, could solve nearly every problem creatively and very cleanly. Had an incredible ability to interpret what you really want in a spec as opposed to how you describe it. Looking at support tickets, most of what he put into production had very few problems except where a business requirement was misunderstood but otherwise, you could trust that if he implemented the functionality, it was ready to go production when he said it was. That individual understood more about technology trends, design patterns, algorithms and data structures than some of my own college professors. In short, he was one of the best hiring decisions we made for that company and one of the best programmers I ever met. The company later also hired the individual (who had two master in computer science and mathematics) that it wanted to over the same candidate. The company had to let him go about a year later for lack of ability to complete assigned tasks and those he completed often were not reliable.
If anything, while I really don't care whether people have a degree or not (for business type software development positions or most types of heavy-duty server application development); I will pick the one with more experience regardless, depending on whether they can demonstrate the requisite skills and personality. I usually end up interviewing people for positions where they must be technically sound (much higher than average technical abilities) and be able to work very well with people because they will need to jump through hoops (as you put it). Otherwise I have no real bias. If the candidate can demonstrate his/her ability to perform and survive in the work environment, then I'll hire the candidate.
Me, I don't have a degree either. After 12 years I have worked up to be a software architect for one of the credit bureaus. Interviewing for the position was very difficult. Our technical ability must be top-notch to succeed in this company as well as our people skills. I'm accustomed to start ups. This is actually the first large corporation I've worked for and I can say, jumping through hoops is an understatement. But I do fine.
I have been attending college part time. All my schedule could afford is one or two classes per semester and it has taken me 7 years to get finally get an associates degree. I stopped there. I work long enough hours at work than to leave and attend school for 3 hours two or three times per week plus homework. It was beginning to affect my marriage and my ability to keep my skills sharp at work. I don't learn on the job, I learn at home. So I stopped attended school.
You likely wouldn't hire me for that. A lot of others that only look for paper also wouldn't. But can pull my own weight and have outperformed many of my peers wherever I've worked. I also have produced or played very large role in launching many products into the market place that have succeeded very well. But I likely wouldn't be happy working for a place that is so superficial that if you don't have a degree, you don't get a job (for the type of work that I do).
Having a degree does not translate into knowing how to perform your job well. Of course, not having a degree does not mean you can't do can't job well, either. I suppose all things being equal between
I have been a network admin at a small company (roughly 75 people) for about 2 years and I have no college degree. I started in a phone tech support position and got promoted to this position after about 6 months. I got the tech support position by having a lot of customer service experience on my resume. Our company employs 8 software developers, half of which also do not have degrees. Most of them started in tech support as well. I think you'll have a hard time getting hired right off the bat for an IT position, but moving up the ladder is always an option. Also, small businesses would be your best bet as they are generally less strict about degrees.
I managed to get my job through experience rather than a degree in the field, that said however, my company will not hire anyone without a degree of some kind, it just doesn't have to be in the area of study where you will work. I think that a lot of certifications and a good personable attitude can take you far, but employers are also skeptical. We have hired non-university educated programmers and have been burned because they didn't understand basic good practices. They could get things done, but not as cleanly as we wanted. I think a degree helps dramatically, but once you have experience, you will likely never need to mention it again. If you can get that first job and build a reputation, you should be fine. Good Luck,
In the Navy, if you're just an enlisted sailor, that might be the case. You wouldn't believe the bureaucracy they have to survive on a daily basis. But if you are motivated enough to make it to a SEAL team, we had much less bureaucracy to contend with and much more "get it done". Of course, that was back in 1994-1996 era. I don't know how it is now.
Thanks,
Leabre
You don't need a degree to get a decent IT job, or even an awesome IT job. You just have to start somewhere at the bottom. I worked in a datacenter for 5 years working with an IBM mainframe... the only one in the entire State. Did side jobs, took a contracting job with a fed agency for a few years. Now I'm VP of IT for a local credit union. Chances are if a place won't hire you because of a piece of paper, then you really wouldn't want to work there. My brother has paper and is 5 years older than me, but makes significantly less than I do and we're in the same field of work. It's all about ambition and what you're willing to do get the job. I love interviews, I've done probably over 100 all resulting in "You Suck" letters telling me they selected someone else. Now, I'm turning down offers like others here. Just have to do the time and make some sacrifices "lambs are good" and befor you know it you're climbing the ladder. FYI, Business Management skills are huge bonuses if you plan on advancing the ranks, but if you want to be a techy, experience and time will serve you well.
I like your perspective. I never thought about it that way. Though, certain types of positions should require a degree: law, medical, structural engineering, pharmaceutical, rocket science, etc. But technical roles such as programming and administrating I do not think should require a degree. Vocational training may qualify also, as it is more specialized. But on-the-job trained or self-taught people will suffice if they can demonstrate their ability to perform.
Thanks,
Leabre
I completely concur with the sentiment and posts regarding the ability to "navigate a complex system" -- the OTHER important part of the degree is follow-through. It shows that you're goal oriented.
I can tell you from first hand experience that, unless you start your own consulting firm or IT company, you'll hit a glass ceiling. You'll likely never ascend into the CxO ranks.
The lack of degree will likely become an albatross around your neck, and the older you get the heavier it becomes.
You will find that your access to social circles will diminish, and you'll likely be passed over for ANY candidate that has one.
But if you want to be the equivalent of an electronic custodian for the rest of your life, go for it. The world always NEEDS you...it just doesn't have to pay you what you think you're worth.
I'm 40, have a BA in CS, an MS in Software Engineering, and in a few months my MBA. They have made ALL the difference in terms of opportunity (and starting salary).
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Of course it's also a good way to reduce the chances that someone is a jew or black, since many universities CONTINUE to favor legacy, and the legacies of many schools are based on discrimination.
There is also a higher probability that you are not a jew or black, since EVEN TODAY many schools favor the children of prior graduates, and those prior graduates were probably excluded from being jews and black, Yeah us, progress is sweet!
The answer, which may be hard for you to hear, is that *you* will not be getting a "good IT job" as a sysadmin any time in the near future.
To be a sysadmin, or to qualify for some other "good IT job", you need experience, knowledge, and the proven capacity to learn and adapt. No company (besides a tiny mom-and-pop joint) will be entrusting their systems to a person who has read a lot on websites, but has not accomplished anything. A degree is an accomplishment of sorts, because it means that you are willing to use your resources (time and money) toward your chosen industry. Of course, a degree without a related internship or other work experience is still very sketchy.
If you want a sysadmin job without a degree, then you will have to work your way up through other less glamorous IT positions - like a help desk. This is a completely acceptable route because you will learn a lot in these positions, gaining that much needed experience and knowledge and showing whether or not you can learn and adapt (as a job in the tech field always demands).
Lower your expectations and look for a job in the IT industry that is commensurate with your level of experience and then work hard at it. As time goes by and you gain experience, you can look for other IT jobs that fit your higher level of experience.
You do not want a job that pays a lot for a level of experience that you do not have. You will find yourself overwhelmed by the responsibilities, unhappy in the position, without respect from your fellow co-workers, and wishing you'd taken the longer route.
One of the most talented programmers I know doesn't have any sort of higher education degree, and has no trouble finding work. That being said, he also had 20 years experience in coding for the Air Force and the NSA. I'd say it'd be easier to get a degree than to go through that, especially with the market as it is now.
I did not complete a college degree. And even if I had it would not have been in CS or any computer related program. I have a good job as a sysadmin for a small business. Actually I am more than the sysadmin, I am the whole computer department, we only have about 55 users. Everything I know I learned as a hobbyist and on the job.
That said, I was lucky to connect with my employer, it was a chance recommendation, I am under-paid by about 20% per local and industry standards, and I am skeptical of finding comparable employment if I choose to leave. Although experience is worth far more than a degree.
If you can get a degree, do it. Period. It can only hurt you if A) you go way overboard in debt, and/or B) you go WAYYY overboard and overeducate yourself. You don't want to appear to be above the jobs you want to get.
"Waitress I need two more boat-drinks..."
In reading the replies, I'm dumbfounded by the assumption that people with degrees have the ability to learn and autodidacts do not.
Many of the posts imply that a person with a degree has proven they have the ability to learn and will learn things more readily than their non-degreed counterparts. To them I say, look up the definition of autodidact.
I think you're missing the point -- its not that the degree automatically proves you have more capacity to learn or do more than the autodidact
Its that its been VALIDATED by a host of instructors in a variety of areas and signed off by the school or university.
They are vouching for the persons capacity at that point in time.
I would take it on their authority over the candidates any day.
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
Thank you. College graduates form a tight, very insular clique that makes it very difficult for those without one to get into any sort of skilled position, regardless of abilities and skills.
In my last job, I was the only employee out of a group of probably 150 that didn't have a degree. It wasn't a computer programming field, though; I've always wanted to work in that area, but I don't have a degree, so I'm dismissed out of hand.
I never said it was a realistic possibility, or even that it would be a good idea. I just said I would like it.
Programming is a hobby as well as a profession for me. The programming languages I use at home are much more advanced then the ones I get to use professionally. This is frustrating at times.
I'm trying to improve my English. Please correct me on any spelling/grammar errors in this post.
I am a systems/network administrator for a Fortune 100 Company (the only admin for my region) and I've done it without a degree. Not even an associates. Granted I did serve in the military for 5 years doing the exact same type of work. My pay is competitive with those that have a B.S. and similar work experience. So yes, it is possible. You just have to put your hard time in somehow. If you can prove your worth, there is a place for you.
30-odd years ago when I started in this profession, a degree was desired but not required. I started as a programmer trainee, advanced to programmer, programmer/analyst, lead systems analyst, was a consultant for a few years, and for the past dozen years have been the senior IT manager at a manufacturing company. I've worked in mom-and-pop shops to Fortune 500 and Fortune 100 companies. I've never gotten a degree. This is probably as far as I will go in corporate America; without an advanced degree (Masters, at least,) I'm either stuck in little companies or little jobs -- no CIO track.
Although I started on large systems, I implemented one of the first business microcomputer systems I've heard, of, a store inventory and accounting application using dual floppies (8 in.!) on an Exidy Sorcerer, running CP/M. I've been an advocate of PCs since before there were PCs, was an early networking implementor (Banyan Vines, Netware, token ring, etc.) and have kept up with my Microsoft education. I went the path of the developer certifications instead of the networking ones -- that may have been a mistake, too.
I've always gotten great performance reviews, been on the continuous education treadmill for most of those 30 years, have the respect of my peers, and have never made as much as the person next to me who had a degree. I have to fight harder for my position in meetings, simply because no matter how much experience and respect you have, people just don't respect you as much if you don't have the credentials. IBM and Microsoft certification is helpful but doesn't make up for it.
If this is your profession, get the degree. It may not seem to matter much now but over the long haul of a profession, it's definately worth it.
I've got an associate's degree (in a technical, but not IT, field). I lead a team of a dozen guys responsible for 2,000 Unix servers. The smartest guy on my team, possibly the smartest guy I've ever met, is "a bit shy" of his HS diploma, has some college I think.
The degree thing, like certifications, is more impressive, I think, to people who don't understand the field, than those in it. Hey, it's great that you have a BS in Computer Science - now tell me, how would you troubleshoot (scenario)? Because your degree doesn't enter into it. Same with certs (with the possible exception of RHCE). Your paper doesn't help at 2:00 AM when we have something critical, down. How do you think? What do you know? What have you done?
When I'm in the interview room, I don't ask about education, because it's not relevant. Mmmmmmmaybe, if I was hiring entry-level people, it would matter, maybe. But even then, I want to throw a scenario at you and see how you think, what your thought process is, what questions you ask in response to my scenario. I don't care if you learned it in comp-sci:232 or whatever, I'd prefer you learned it in the trenches.
Often I'll see jobs posted as "4 year degree or equivalent". If you don't have the 4-year degree, be able to explain to the HR droid how what you've done qualifies as "or equivalent" in the context of what you're going for. If they're good, they'll understand your point. Think of it as a test of dealing with non-technical people in order to get your project done - in this case, your project is to get hired.
Sorry kinda long and rambly, but I think you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.
...at what point does your amount of experience obviate the need for a degree? I worked 2 years as a low level admin and I've been working for 9 years as a software engineer with no degree. If I start job hunting, are interviewers going to ask me about a degree?
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
I'm in México, and I've been working as web developer and sysadmin the last 4 years, I do have a degree in chemistry, and I'm even trying to get a Ph.D. (in chemistry too) done, but it took me way too long, so a few years ago started to work on the TI side, I learned a lot of networking and programming while on college, so I had little problem to find someone that doesn't care about my actual degree, but do care about a lot of stuff I know (specially FOSS related) that most computer degree guys don't know that deep, I even managed to pass as "analyst" even when I've never had an assinature about UML, development process, etc
I don't think I would have a lot of trouble to work on USA either, I can make a lot of stuff done relating to any sysadmin/developer activity.
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
I think a loot of people would think like you, the good thing for competitive guys is that most of the time, the positions that matter don't usually find more than one person to do the job, that's where a degree-less guys like my find their opportunities :)
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
Funny, my experience was exactly the opposite. Perhaps the difference is between Ivy League vs State Schools? My State School absolutely favored the children of those who had not gone to college.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I forgot to mention one of the most important things about working as a systems administrator and that is the fact that this position should only be used as a stepping stone towards another type of work, such as management, engineering, project consulting, or running your own computer business. The reason for this is that as a systems administrator your job focuses on a runaround dealing mostly with resolving issues and performing tasks to enable operations on a day to day basis. This is an endless cycle of issue resolution requiring immediate attention that generates stress as a natural byproduct and over extended periods of time this stress slowly builds up that will either build you up and motivate you to learn and move to another position or it will break you down and turn you into an ineffectual administrator.
Working in fast paced and high demand environments such as enterprise sized computing in multinational firms does this to many administrators who in turn either break down or move out of administration to focus on another type of work in technology such as management roles, or try to take on project work instead of administration and operations to balance the issue resolution work with improvement and design type projects.
As a younger technologist I always looked towards systems administration as a holy panacea of positions and I always dreamt of becoming a systems administrator. After attaining my goal and after years of working as one and becoming one of the more technically senior ones in many of the departments that I worked at I always looked up towards engineering as the next position on my career track. I looked up to engineering since this position was more focused on creation of new works through design and architecture work on projects as a solution to the repetitive and stress creating work that is performed through administration.
I started working towards this goal and I picked up a short contract a while back where I was the sole engineer on the project and as responsible for the entire analysis, recommendation, design, and to a small extent the implementation of the project. I worked with a project manager to carry out this project and hand my design work to systems administrators who would carry out the work. I really enjoyed the creation part of this project since I was able to utilize my expertise and knowledge of systems administration to analyze and plan the design of the work. Then with the project manager I demonstrated the design to the business management and got the go ahead to create the design. At this point I utilized my scripting and automation skills to create a number of scripts to automate the analysis and also the implementation of the work for the project. I then deployed the implementation scripts to the systems administrators working on the project and let them handle the operation of those scripts while also giving the project manager the metrics generating scripts to monitor the work that the administrators were performing. As the project moved along I had to redevelop some scripts and tweak others due to changing requirements. At that point my work on the project was finished and the daily operations were now being handled by the administrators and the progress monitoring was being done by the project manager.
After this project was finished I was very happy with the work that I have done and I was glad to be involved in the creation of new and useful products and processes that helped other people perform their work faster, easier, and better. This was a much more challenging and enjoyable work that required my expertise on the the systems that I used to administer but also required knowledge of other systems and their interaction amongst each other thus broadening the field of knowledge that was utilized to carry out this project. Since the systems themselves are rigid in their design the hard difficulties came from the flaws in their design or implementation that basically required the solution or workaround. The soft problems
One wonderful fallout from dot com was that everyone and their dog got into IT. Very few of those people had papers. So as a backlash now companies want some kind of paper. But don't worry! Going to college or university doesn't mean you'll get a job, or that you are any good at what you do... (In the "I went to school with people that were muppets" category.) Now you need some kind of paper - that is prodginy of the zeros - a certification of some sort will do. Either your Microsoft Cert, or your PM Cert, CISA Cert, SA Cert... all these organizations have popped up that for about $2k and a yearly tax you can have a piece of paper that says you know something about desktop IT, project management, audit, software, etc. Those are more eye catching these days than someone with years of experience.
/\/\icro/\/\uncher
After all - Bill Gates doesn't have a degree.
I've spent the last decade as a web developer, and most positions I've applied for (and been accepted in) have said something along these lines in the description:
"BS in computer science OR EQUIVALENT EXPERIENCE required" (caps mine)
I got away with the first few jobs until I had enough years under my belt to argue that I had experience equivalent to a BS. Now, I'd say I have enough experience to surpass a BS.
So, they're usually flexible.
But, be forewarned - I've always been paid something like half of what dice.com and other salary data has claimed to be the going rate for my position in my area. Maybe I've just been consistently unlucky in my choice of employer, but I'm starting to think that they simply pay less for somebody without the BS.
The bastards.
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
I donno about that. My father was a coal miner (and still is). My mother stayed at home.
Actually, turns out that I'm the first on either my mother or father's side of the family who completed college. Of the roughly 10 cousins older than I, 3 attended college at the same time or before I. One dropped out to work, another got hooked on smack, and the last just took a long-ass time to figure out what the hell she wanted to do.
Do I sound like your stereotypical child of an affluent white family? My father was making about 28k a year (which is why my FAFSA reaped such huge dividends for me), and at least 1/3 of my family is either addicted to heroin, crack, or cocaine, with one particularly colorful cousin the proud mother of 4 crackbabies.
Needless to say, I don't consort with most of my family any longer.
But, I guess that just because I'm white, it automatically means my family was mega rich and completely adjusted, eh?
I work for a company in Fort Wayne, IN as a software developer. We provide our software on an ASP model as well as technical support to our clients so besides software developers we have sys-admin down help desk people. I started here in '01 with no degree. Our current sys-admin has no degree. We've found that some of the brightest people just graduated high school and some of the dimmest just graduated college. I'm not saying college makes you stupid. It just doesn't make you intelligent. College tries to teach you, but you still have to put effort into learning. We have had to train college grads and non-grads alike. We are more interested in the ability for a person to learn new things, not their knowledge of current things.
How about networking with many people, so many people that literally a company can be formed. Have some real, usable products with real world solutions. He could post himself to IT Czar. Others could be the HR, Payroll, R&D and other roles-takers. But, he could name his own price, so to speak.
Hell, they might even get some VC funding where VCs might be looking for aggressive new upstarts that have their act together. Or, alternatively, a bigger, frightened company might buy them just to hoard them, or to shut them down. They all might get 1 or 2 years salary to work or to not compete. Might beat unemployment compensation.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Except for "scientifically" speaking "intellectually" demanding jobs, I don't think you are right.
I'm positive, don't belive me look at my karma
I'm not going to sit here and lie to you. Not everyone can just visit a friend for lunch and walk away with an IT job for dessert, but that's exactly what happened to me. I was an AutoCAD draftsman that happened to get into gaming, then deeper into computer modding, and eventually networking and ultimately started teaching myself UNIX. I was working at a local independent telco when a friend invited me to Chicago for lunch one day. I saw the server room, found my self in awe of it's row upon row of servers, and in an odd twist of fate my friend's boss (and my future boss) got to chatting with me, discovered I was ex-Military and offered me a job on the spot.
I've got a few classes @ Purdue, (actually 3 left to get my associates degree) but no degree. I may not make what other UNIX admins in Chicago make, but I'm comfortable at my job, relatively secure in my position (only UNIX admin, 50+ servers, flying solo) and I get training "on the house" every year.
So yes, you can get a good paying IT job without a degree. I may be one of the few, but it can be done.
-Phil
To avoid corruption, one must remain dishonest.
There is no magic bullet. You have to work hard, learn as you go and be open to all possibilities. Keep learning!
HopZen/ Tim Hardy,Founder and CTO thepaperceiling.com No Degree. No Problem.
Keep learning! HopZen/ Tim Hardy,Founder and CTO thepaperceiling.com No Degree. No Problem.
Until a couple months ago, that was my exact situation: My title was Software Engineer, and I lived/worked in California. I have no degree.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but it's wrong.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
I can't say it's a "great" job; the pay is below par, but it is also a very small company in a small town. I have been offered other Linux "Admin" positions, which would have paid 50% more in the area, but turned them down, because of the enjoyment I get out of this position, that I felt would not be as likely at the other companies that have offered me positions.
When other folks my age would have been getting a CS degree, I was busy going into debt running a dial-up ISP (before dialup was completely dead)... So I have "real-world" experience where most people in my industry have a degree.
I have since hired two other friends, who now work under me. Neither of them have degrees, either...
...and I manage the IT department at a large international hospital in East Africa.
There are jobs out there for folks without degrees. It's all about gaining the right experience and knowing how to play the game.
I don't have a degree either, and yet I hold a pretty high paying IT job. I think the key is being able to supplement enough work experience that it does not matter to the person doing the hiring.
I had to start low, working tech support for a few years for an Internet company that allowed me to move up to system administration. This was easy for me to do because I was 18 at the time and everyone else I knew was working low end - low pay jobs too... it's a much harder thing for someone much older to do who has more financial obligations than I did at the time.
I do agree about the college clique that exists. Techies in IT tend to be pretty elitist, degrees mean something to a lot of people in this field. I see people come in often with very little or no work experience just on a degree alone. They usually end up make poor (read: newbe) decisions and screw something up before moving on to the next big thing. While the rest of us old folks (10+yrs in IT) say I told ya so.
If you have enough experience it's going to be of value to anyone hiring. You always need a few Senior level people around who have the experience that only comes with doing the job for many years. Lessons and knowledge a degree will never teach you. For many people working to that point might not be an option though. I'd recommend finding a job you can do with a company that does offer IT services. Network and work your way to that point where you know what the guy trying to get hired knows. Many companies (usually medium or smaller ones) still promote within over bringing fresh blood in from outside.
Wisely said!
Farmers have a better handle on accounting, government, economics, technology, and mechanical repair than most of the US population. If you want to see some sweet tech toys, today's farm equipment will blow your mind.
Tech folk shift bits around by plucking away at keyboards from the comfort of their warm, dry cubicles, with very little risk. Farmers work to create a product that is real, tangible, and without which we could not fuel our cars, feed our families, clothe our children, even though they have to handle variables related to temperature, rain fall, planting and harvest times, and disease that are complex and financially risky.
As tech folk, we solve a lot of problems. We cull, and sift, and display, and protect valuable data. We transfer funds and help people to communicate and all of that. But we still don't produce anything that continues to exist when the power goes out. The biggest problem of our day, feeding a hungry planet, will be solved by farmers. So let's not pretend that we are so wonderful at the expense of one of the most productive and creative segments of our population.
You talk about ignorance but can't even spell "ads" correctly? Way to go. I have a degree in linguistics but have spent nearly my whole career in IT (worked in linguistics for a while, but always liked IT better and the pay is a lot better).
Since you are apparently one of the uneducated, please do us a favor and get out of IT. The natural talent for IT that is typically displayed by people working in IT without a degree in CS or related will run rings around your AC ass anytime.
My story might help the OP.
Background: Playing with computers since very young. Started an information publishing business before the Internet was ready (wrong partner.) Used the experience to consult buiding database applications. Almost took a job programming C++, but returned to college (wrong move.) Dropped out for finances (poor loans and grants advice and policies.)
No degree; want job in IT.
1995: Joined cattle call for Windows 95 call center. Over 200 people; very few with computer experience. I bothered the best technician with questions. The current best technician would leave for a non-support job about every two weeks. Repeated until I was the best technician.
1996: Used that reputation to land job as "Lotus Notes Administrator" answering support calls. Learned administration. Also learned LotusScript and the rest of Lotus Notes. The development group would call me for help when they could not read their own code. Several of the developers were consultants from one company.
1997: Joined the consulting company. Would try me as a developer, but threatened a long-term administration position if I did not produce. I produced. Became certified as both administrator and developer. Built reputation for completing the impossible in very little time.
2000: A large consulting company recruited me for contract work. That company has provided about half my work since. Also working for other consulting companies and on my own startup.
2006: Decided to try being an employee. Gained position that required Masters degree; I was the only applicant with the required experience. Need a degree to be promoted and a B.S. before a Masters so college while working full-time.
2007: Left company just before completing B.S. Management. Returned to consulting.
The first goal is to enter the field. Support centers always need people. Do not work phone support more than one year. Use the experience to learn everything and make friends to land the next job. Since the OP's goal is to be an administrator, the next job will likely be a junior administrator. Get promoted if possible, otherwise wait a year and move to an administrator position.
Learn everything you can in each position. In the last two years, I have completed projects using Java, Lotus Notes/Domino, Microsoft, and SAP on MSWindows and Unix/Linux, also programming in other languages: Bash, C#, CSS, HTML, JavaScript, PHP, SQL (MS SQL Server, Oracle, and PostgreSQL), and XSL/XPath. (I am certainly forgetting some.) As an administrator, you will not need quite as much variety, but the more you know, the more jobs you can handle. A good administrator should know Bash, MSDOS, Perl, and VBS.
I spend my life entertaining my brain.
It's only important if you stress that you didn't go there. Just stress what you are capable of doing and change the question everytime they mention college. A lot of the IT people here are not very competent but they have a degree. If they can ask you what kind of cable this is or how many pins are in it or if you know how to climb up in the ceiling to redo their phone lines just change the subject. ;p
"I guess I'm gonna fade into Bolivian."
hmmm.... Anyway - I'm a well payed CTO (33 years old) got and conditional offer to work at Google this year (very interesting terms). I studied Physics with the Philosophy of Scince Msci, but dropped out. If you're bright, you have ideas, and you can make them a reality, then you will will do well. a degree, is only good for proving you can get a degree.
I know. But you have to have experience. If you do not have experience, chances are you won't get a (good) job with a degree.
Based on what I have seen in my efforts to get employment, having "commercial experience" seems to be more important these days than having a degree. What they dont tell you is how you GET that "commercial experience".
There's a wide range of IT jobs in between 'help desk worker' and 'PhD Computer Scientist,' and in most of those in-between jobs, experience counts for more than a college degree.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I have interviewed 50+ people at my current job in the past 4 years. I would say that that if i could have the following 2 questions truthfully answered with 100% certainty, the process would be much more efficient:
#1 Can you solve technical problems: Yes [ ] No [ ]
#2 Can you teach yourself new technology/systems quickly: Yes [ ] No [ ]
I have had to fire people with Doctorates because they dont know (or cant apply) basic software engineering concepts. The best people are the ones that truly enjoy #1 and #2 above.
This is ask slahsdot, not ask slashdot readers to do scientifically sound, heavy research with large sample sizes for you. The author wants to know the readers thoughts, he doesn't (shouldn't) expect 'proof'.
Funny how you don't actually mention that huge caveat when you talk up getting a job. Do you not think that had some impact, or are you deluded to think that your skills shine through.
I am not saying that people without degrees aren't as skilled at computers. What I am saying is that this is one of the hardest things to get across, to non-technical people. So they go interview by the numbers.
I'm a database engineer (software developer) at Microsoft, and I never finished a degree. I started out as a contractor and got hired on after my last contract was up. To me, a degree doesn't make a bit of difference. It's someone's experience and problem-solving skills that matter to me. A degree doesn't make someone a better or worse employee, there are plenty of idiots with or without a degree. All of that being said, there have been some times where it has been harder to get my foot in the door. When it came down to it, I've done just fine.
Wow. You truly must be an asshole.
I'm indeed fairly certain that I got my first job on my skills. My boss interviewed 15-20 people before me, and ended up employing me.
I don't care if it's a boom time or a recession. If you're competent, you'll be able to find a job in IT.
I'm the Senior Systems Administrator for a healthcare IT company and I have no formal education beyond graduating high school.
I've been working professionally with computer since 1981, but with no computer degree. I took one course in college and then, several years later, went back for two more courses. At the time I heard the interesting statistic that the majority of computer programmers had undergrad degrees either in English or Psychology. Being a Psych/English double major myself, I assume it's because they found out that real-world jobs in those fields were few and poorly paid compared to the lucrative field of computer programming. Companies were so hungry for computer folk that they were willing to give you a shot if you claimed the necessary skills, whether or not you had the requisite paperwork. Even now, you'll find that later in your career nobody pays much attention to your degree if you have enough experience.
The trouble now is in getting that first job. There are plenty of folk out there with computer degrees and many of those have experience as well. On top of that you have the various "certifications" that are also supposed to imply competence on the part of the bearer. I suppose it's theoretically possible to work your way up under those circumstances, but nobody's going to give you a job just because you know the difference between a GOTO and a GOSUB.
===== Murphy's Law is recursive. =====
One mistake that people often make with this comparison is that they compare two people of otherwise equal experience, but one with a four year degree, and one without.
Clearly, this comparison makes no sense - one of the people has a four year degree. i.e. they have four more years of experience.
If you want a great job in IT, and you don't want to fork out for school, then it's still possible. But don't expect to get one now. Plan for your great break only after committing to 3-4 years of mediocre IT jobs where you are learning while working.
You've still got to put in the time. Depending upon what you do during this time, and what employers you try to find afterwards, the four year degree vs four years of real experience debate could go either way.
There are a few ways to get a job. First, tailor your resume for the job/company for which you are applying. Another way, you have an idea of what you want. Now, find out what the competition is like. You have been doing that by pursuing the job ads. Just remember, some of those ads are written by people that don't know much about what is needed. You see people posting jobs and asking for someone with a MSCS and CCIE and all kinds of Certs just to be a Level 1 call center tech. Target the company/industry/etc. you want to work in. Get some information. Network (which can help you find job leads and possibly get you references later), find out what companies are really looking for (sometimes they post prerequisites for people to discourage just anyone from applying), and research (pay, job requirements, education requirements). Some companies might see you in a better light with any certification or any degree rather than no piece of paper at all. Finally, experience is the best teacher. Have and be able to prove job experience. IT has changed in the past 10 years. More people have IT/CS degrees. But, to have a combination of experience and paper...
"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." General James Mattis
I've been working for 2 years as a network admin/database administrator/computer repairman/computer teacher, for my company, all without a degree. I used to sell computers to the company I work for, and when I let them know I was quitting, they hired me. The old computer guy retired and now I run the whole show. There's about 50 employees, and that makes for a very busy IT guy. I get paid pretty well. I think the key is to find a smaller company who is willing to invest in their employees.
I've been in IT for many years and I still don't have an IT degree. I was in Jr college at the time and I got a part time job as a "computer operator", which was like a junior sysadmin. I took a single HPUX class and a couple programming classes on my own time because I was into that sort of thing anyway.
I ran batch jobs and backups, mostly, working crap overnight hours and holidays. After 5 years I worked my way up to full sysadmin over a data center with 4 HP-UX servers and 3 assistants.
The key is you are going to have to start at the bottom and learn everything on the job and on your own time if you don't learn it at school. It's an option, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily any better than just getting that degree and starting a bit higher up the food chain.
I'm with you, HappyDrgn. I went to Uni for three years, but didn't graduate. This was because I went for a job where 150 of us sat an aptitude test. After the results came out, I reckon they wouldn't have cared if the top 20 of us were in the prison system. I'm a pure techo, and Uni didn't teach me anything new about computers, although I use the higher maths that I learned every day. Having said this, I reckon I'd be a pretty crap manager, and a few extra courses might have smoothed off some of the rough edges, but hearding sheep has never really appealed to me. There are people in my field (performance engineer) that I respect for their higher learning, usually in the statistices field where the sort of discipline required can only come from Uni, although I personally wouldn't spend the extra four years to get to that level.
I think you and I are in the same camp. I dropped out after my first year of college in 1994 and started working in the tech bench at a big box retailer. Eventually, I moved through a few different positions, computer operator at a bank, then the data processing center at another company, until I got hired on to do phone support for our data products.
Eventually I moved into tech support, which led to a sysadmin career and then technical training. During that time, I pursued both the MCSE and CCNA certifications. Some of my certs were sponsored by my employer, others were not. After doing sysadmin work for a number of years, I moved into a more soft-skills focused role.
I've been more of a process management / performance management / business intelligence specialist the last couple of years. I just finished the first draft of my second book, and I will probably gross six figures this year. Not bad for an English major who dropped out after Freshman Year.
The bottom line is this. Whether or not you have a degree, expect to start at the bottom, and work your way up. If you advance too soon, you may be in over your head. If your career stagnates, it's because you haven't put enough initiative in moving forward.
Never be afraid of a challenge. My specialty is in Microsoft SysAdmin, but I can configure Cisco routers and switches with the best of them. I've installed a few Linux testbeds, and while it's not my OS of choice, I can manage my way through it.
I will say this; if you're not going to get a degree, at least pursue a basic cert like A+ or Network+ to start.
Hmm.. I do have a degree, and I don't care one whit whether applicants have a degree or not (and I care even less about certifications). The bulk of what I learned in college is useless in my job (sysadmin), the bulk of what I use daily I learned on my own. I even place more importance these days on a person's ability (and especially drive) to learn on their own over experience anymore. I'd rather hire a driven person with little to no experience over a person with years as an admin that balks at learning new stuff. The latter tend to be the ones that try to get others to do most of their work for them rather then spend some time learning something new to finish a task too.
I don't really see much of an elitist (with respect to degrees.. yes many are very elitist in general about computer knowledge) in the people I work with in IT, but that's me.
- My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
The long answer is... While many companies mention a CS degree requirement for Sysadmin Jobs, I have found that they usually leave out the "or equivalent experience" in the offering to cut down on the truly inexperienced admins applying for any sysadmin position. I personally don't have a degree but this has never prevented me from getting a job. Traditionally, their has been little crossover between a CS degree and good sysadmin ability, though this may be changing nowadays with some schools offering a glimpse into what we do. Just know that 1) there are good IT jobs out there and 2) you don't need a degree to get it. I'm living proof. :)
While there have been a zillion postings on /. about uselessness of certifications and degrees when interviewing sys admins, dba's, programmers, and engineers, I look for both certs and degrees as evidence that the applicant can not only learn, but put up with the inevitable aggravations of any organization of 100+ employees.
If you don't want to go to college or take exams for certs, then your outstanding professional skills should get you past the interview process for an underpaying job in a smaller company. Then, you can build references and real-life skills and interview for larger organizations more likely to pay more for your time.
Just remember that lack of certs and degrees will always mean that some companies won't even let you interview. Fortunately, you don't NEED a million jobs, just one at any one moment in your life.
Best of luck....
If I have a choice between being lucky or being good, I'll take lucky every time.
Live Long and Prosper - Thanks Leonard. You are missed.
The reality is that university degrees, saving a small percentage of highly technical schools, mean absolutely nothing and in no way indicate the capability of the person that has them. I have one from a state school that has a fairly prestigious technology curriculum because my parents thought was important. I have never listed it on a resume and I have been working in this industry since I got out of high school making real money. These days I make alot of money doing something I love and learning new things every day and no one has ever asked me if I have a degree. Comp sci and bis programs in most schools are absolutely worthless as far as their ability to teach you skills that you can use in the workplace. While interviewing people do often ask me about my technical expertise though. Some bigger larger companies that I have worked for conduct several highly technical interviews and are even smart enough to look for overall aptitude above specific skills. To do this successfully, at a high level in the real world you need to have IT .... and that's not an acronym. It's the ability to put 1+1 together and get 4 ... get from a to d without going through B and C ... something that isn't as common as you might think
You need to have very diverse skill sets and experience that allow you to make neural connections quickly that others don't. One of my best hires was a kid that grew up farming and tinkered with electrical engineering .... part of IT is also a passion for learning and finding answers.
Nice generality that isn't remotely correct. The value of the bachelor's degree depends on the choice of degree.
You miss my point completely. Time spent studying is time spent studying, whether in a university, in your own home, or at a broke ass public library computer terminal.
A degree is motivation for the student, nothing more.
Every competent manager I have ever worked for has had a mortal disdain for CS students without 3+ years real world experience, because that is about how long it takes for the reality to sink in for most degree holders... in the corporate world it boils down to A Real World Track Record.
I am speaking from experience as a currently self employed programmer who spent years maintaining infrastructure for a regional auto parts chain while paying my dues, moved on to slightly bigger pastures, and then found a nice cozy niche of my very own.
If you live near any higher education institutions I'd suggest socializing within those circles while you're working your way up.
The majority of my friends at the University level cherish the few students that pass through their classes on the way to bigger and better things. The sad fact is that most kids go to college because that is what is expected of them, and most professors I know go through periods of disillusionment due to the lack of dedication displayed by the majority of their charges.
I wonder why Dilbert rings true with so many IT veterans... If advanced degrees insure proficiency where the hell's all the MBA talent?
The only way that lacking a college degree could have hindered my career is if I had been the sort to get hung up about starting at the bottom. I was not that sort, and now I live on my own terms, with a wide network of contacts that I met while successfully delivering technical services over the years. Anyhow, CS grads prolly wouldn't be the butts of so many jokes if companies didn't keep hiring them in way above their experience level, but that's life.
College Degree not required.
As a college student getting ready to graduate in a couple of weeks I cannot be more greatful for my degree. I have less than two years of experience in the Telecom/IT world but my degree will get me in the door to gain the valuable experience I need to excel in my field. With the economy the way it is now it would be hard to gain qaulity job prospects without a college undergraduate degree and win a position.
It is a fantastic entry level position. Many great coders I know started out in phone support or other similar jobs. It teaches you:
*Communication skills with non-technical people. It always amazes me how bad some people in IT are in regards to communication with other people. The scary part is I find the more qualified someone is, the worse they are at communicating, it is almost as if they feel that communicating with non-IT people is beneath them.
*Troubleshooting skills (so long as it is a non-scripted support role). You have to think on the fly - a customer on the other end of the line is not going to put up with an answer of "it's too hard - go away". You have to rapidly diagnose possible causes and propose solutions.
*You learn to deal with incompetent / abusive people. Similar but not the same as learning communication skills.
*Following tasks through to completion. The customer will just keep calling back if you dont fix the problem. You lose the concept of the 'too hard basket'.
*Humility. You get out of the mindset of 'I am too good for X job'
I started out in IT in phone support and as much as I hated every moment of it, it has served a great purpose. I have since had no issues finding very well paid positions in development without a degree (and yes this was post-dot-com). However I was also doing freelance dev on the side as well as using the phone support pay checks to pay for some certification (however basic it was). If I was interviewing someone and they said they did Level 1 phone support for 2 years and did nothing else I would not hire them - not based on them having done phone support but based on them showing no personal motivation. In the type of position I am interviewing I need someone who is very pro-active in responding to issues, not someone who sits back and waits for someone to tell them what to do.
The key is to demonstrate personal motivation and desire to contribute ie work ethic. This has nothing to do with what types of jobs previously worked. It is quite pathetic the number of people when interviewed and asked the question 'why do you want to work here?' will go on for several minutes on what they will gain from the employment and do not bother to mention what they will contribute back. Even if you don't mean any of it - at least you have put some thought into it.
The big problem these days, especially with new grads, is that they expect to land a senior position irrespective of how little experience they have. For a senior position I do not care if a candidate can write an algorithm slightly more efficiently than the next candidate - I want to know how they will react in a situation that is not taught in their degree - eg how to handle several critical deadlines if it is impossible to meet all of them or how to react in the case of something going really bad. This is where I have found non-grads tend to excel - they do not expect a senior position straight away and those that are experienced generally have worked much harder to get where they are (and thus have gained more experience along the way). Having said that - there are many fantastic grads as well (and many pathetic non-grads).
A degree is purely a tool to help you, it is not the be all and end all as some seem to think it is.
If I may share how I landed my current job:
Like you, I have no degree, although I spent a significant amount of time in two universities. What I did have was a year and a half's worth of experience as a fraternity house IT person and the chapter webmaster, and several years of my childhood Saturdays spent in a Japanese "cram school"-- yes, in America. When I moved back home a year before the current recession officially started (the area I was living in was already facing more IT people than jobs), I immediately started looking through employment agencies as I had zero network connections in the area-- and yes, if you have no network, they really can be your best shot. It took two and a half months, but my contact found an employer who needed someone fluent in Japanese with IT skills who was either a citizen or a permanent resident-- less than a year later, my coworker had to leave because her student visa expired and she wasn't able to get an H1-B ahead of time.
Now, granted, the current downturn will make job hunting even more difficult than my situation 2 years ago, much less if you don't have skills other than IT, and you only contact those who are looking for straight-up IT specialists. That's a scenario where, as other commenters have mentioned, the candidates with degrees win. The key is to leverage your way into a spot where your skills match your prospective employer's needs, and then convince them that hiring you would be a great idea. If you can't manage that, you'll need to do it the hard way and take a less-desirable job to support yourself while you build the skills you need in your spare time. Or, if you're still financially able to go to school, get that degree.
And don't rely on Monster alone. I tried that and got exactly zero hits.
"We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
I am a self taught IT geek with no degree or formal training in the area. When i was living in London a few years ago I had a few sys admin jobs and a few people i know were doing similar things with out the formal qualifications that seem to be so sort after nowadays. Saying that, now i live back in Aus and trust me no degree = no "real IT" work here so and i would presume that this is the same issue in the US. HR in corporate environments seem to have lost their way with what experience really is vs that piece of paper saying that you can do the job. If they only ignored qualifications to allow people to the interview, the occasion when i've gotten to that point i've shocked them with my corporate references from previous employment. Alas now i am doing my degree, cant keep up with the market without it now.
You are better off getting a 4 year degree. In retrospect, I wish I had.
However, I never got a degree and I am doing OK. 6 figure salary and all the side project hours I could want doing interesting Linux stuff.
Not having a degree definitely closes some doors, but experience trumps a degree in this line of work.
My first serious job was as a sysadmin for a small software company in the mid-nineties. At the time I was attending university pursuing a BS CS degree. I had no prior sysadmin experience, but worked my way up into the position doing technical support.
Fast forward to today, some 10 years later: I never finished my degree (only completed maybe 50-75%) and am earning ~$105k as a software engineer at a pretty prestigious institution that hires lots of PhDs and other advanced degree holders.
The bottom line is this: If you can prove yourself, there is hope for a decent IT career without a degree.
Despite what EULAs say, most software is sold, not licensed.
Your ability to get into a good IT career will always depend on your experience and personality. Technology is unique as achievment is based on your passion and willingness to learn. It is possible to find a good job without a degree, but propably not your first job. To begin you should seek an opening position in some form of IT support role like tech support, helpdesk, call center, etc... This will help establish yourself and provide proof of your willingness to do the work.
Don't let people discourage you, a real interviewer knows that in today's world there's more to an employee than a degree or fancy resume. A resume only gets you a conversation, the rest is up to you. If you can prove you have a compatible personality and relevant experience then your on the right track. Anyone who is so close minded that believes a degree is the only way to prove your worth, is probably not the person you want to work for.
Innovators are born, not learned
I'm a high school drop out. I don't even have a G.E.D. Without any experience or connections I landed a job at MediaDefender through craigslist as a SysAdmin. My only prior job experience was working at a gas station attendant pumping gas, for three years.
However, I was always a proficient programmer. At age 16 I had already written port scanners, packet sniffers, games, etc. I knew C, C++, perl, html, etc. I also knew how to maintain a linux machine. (had been using Linux since I was 15, specially for a audio creation.) I was very familiar with package management and software compilation.
I don't think I could stomach one day in school, seems utterly pointless. I learn much faster on my own.
So, now after 3 years in the IT industry. I am now a full time perl developer for a F500 company making $60K a year.
Not bad for a high school dropout.
So no, you don't need a degree OR connections. You just need to be good. Hell, you don't even need a job to make money in IT.
Self taught are generally more passionate for computing, most students just want a stable job that pays well.
If you feel you need school to land a SysAdmin job, then you probably suck.
BTW, I'm 22 now.
Wait...
You got where you are based on luck...but you are in a warzone?
Was that bad luck?
No reason to lie.
Wait... this is the Internet, right? You're supposed to argue with me and fling meaningless insults.
You're right and I totally agree. For jobs where human lives or millions of dollars are at stake, it's probably a good idea to impose some sort of rigorous examination and regulation. Accreditation and standards are important.
I'd rather put the regulation of standards and examination in the hands of an unbiased non-profit professional organization.
The worlds greatest lawyer to come out of the greatest law school could just be the greatest cheater or worse... didn't even have to try that hard.
Cheers.
Sooo do you have any jobs in Jacksonville, FL? I'd LOVE to work for someone like you! wyvernATphoenixphamilyDOTcom
Oops..was I supposed to push that button?
Hey! Not TRUE!
My personal story starts with breaking into BIG IT in 2006. So there! And I was picked over people with masters degrees. Guess starting programming at 14 helps, since I am 24 now...
In the current market getting a job without a degree is almost impossible.
I disagree. For any company that's worth working for, it's not what you have, it's what you can do - and the enlightened ones know this. I've seen both sides of the coin - and based on what I've seen from people with degrees, most of the time it's nothing to write home about. Many people get degrees in IT not because of a passion they're after, but because that's where the money is.
Uh... you guys do know that "engine"er comes from a trade? right? ( it was the guy that conducted, fixed the trains ;) )
Oh wait, I'm sure you both have your PE's. Right?
Its funny seeing programmers, because computer scientist you surely are not, bitch about the engineer title. Then I ask them if they have their PE, which is based on Apprenticeship, and then love to see their blank stare lol
"what's a pe?"
Look, while there are many unqualified and cert monkeys passing themselves as sysadmin, a true sysadmin, systems engineer is closer to the true meaning of an engineer, then someone with a CS degree is.
The role of the sysadmin, is a true systems engineer ( look up that meaning too, you'll see).
A true sys. admin, or systems engineer in IT, looks at the whole system, and uses components as building blocks to a scalable and stable architecture.
Computer janitor, huh?
Look, a true sys admin or systems engineer is truer to "engineering" than "CS" is to "science".
Most CS graduates are venerable code drones, doing fixes and minor features at the helm of Pm's. That sounds more like a janitor to me.
Sys admin work is true systems engineering. iow, building complex systems out of building blocks. Way more interesting than being a code monkey for the most part.
( and btw, most good admins can code )
While I agree that some of the smartest people I've worked with don't have degrees, it's harder to convince HR, etc., What's worse is that our specialized industry certifications aren't a guarantee of being a competent employee or getting a job.
Personally, I don't like certs much, but when you have nothing, getting your A+, MCP, or CNA is a start. It will make your resume looks less empty.
I'd say that about half of the people where I live have degrees of some sort with the other half purely being self-taught. The folks I talk to with without degrees report a harder time getting their foot in the door and a harder time getting promoted after a certain level.
If you're the self-starter/entrepreneur type, I'd recommend getting any IT-related job you can, including Geek squad or a local PC repair shop for a couple of years to learn what customer support means and get some experience and then take off on your own when you think you can do better than who you work for.
Here's the most important part: With whatever job you get, work hard and show up on time. Being a good worker is something that takes practice. If you slack off because you have a "unimportant" or entry-level job, you'll develop bad work habits. If you work hard people will notice. After a few years (which seems like an eternity when you're just out of high school), former co-workers will start asking you if you want a job when they have openings.
Competition Good, Monopoly Bad.
Yup, it's possible to get a considerably well paid IT job without a degree. It all depends on which employers you find, so job hunting is the most complicated part of it. As an example, you can take myself: I started computer programming as a kid, quit school a year early, and have now over 25 years of programming experience in my book, despite being just 38. Finding an employer can be a tough one, though. I've been unemployed for about half a year now, and haven't found any new job yet. The current economical crisis might also factor into this. With a degree you might have more job options, but it all depends on the conservativism of a work environment; so, if someone hires only graduates, that might not be a company you'd want to work for anyway. In some companies you'd only get looked down upon, so choosing your employer carefully is a necessity, despite the urge to get a job.
WTH are you talking about? Maybe Ivy League colleges are easier if your dad went there, but that doesn't mean it's easier for a Caucasian either.
Have you looked at the scholarships available for minorities lately?
Ivy League schools aren't the only game in town.
--- The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw.
Then you've never worked for companies like NeXT, HP, Intel, AMD, IBM, Honda, Toyota, Boeing, et.al or any other corporation that relies on leading experts in their fields to lead their respective industries forward with product development.
Let's just say my Mechanical Engineering degree and Computer Science degree, combined with my years of IT support at a major University, plus tutoring a wide variety of subjects and students, not to mention my years of networking are what made it possible to get into companies like NeXT and Apple.
There are a lot of companies that will throw 20 bodies to resolve issues a team of 5 diversely skilled professionals can do; and when economies scale back those 15 people with limited skill sets and backgrounds are the first to go.
The people who've said networking is the way to go are, of course, right. All my best jobs have come that way; what few I've gotten from the classifieds (online or otherwise) have been crummy.
But either way, I've learned that it's best to try for jobs with smaller companies. Anyplace big enough to have an HR department will, often as not, screen out your resume if it lacks some credential they specify (college degree at a minimum, usually), whereas a smaller outfit will have a human reading them and might actually give your application enough attention to see that you have something to offer.
Once you get an interview, your degree or lack thereof no longer is important. Just like it won't matter if you actually get the job. What the degree does for you is keep your resume from being tossed out the door during the first round of culling.
Perfectly Normal Industries
I did not finish Uni because I was snapped up by a big corp due to my skills before I had a chance to finish my degree. I would have loved to finish it, but world hopping is not very conducive to this, so I gave it a miss...
Many moons later I still don't have a degree, I really don't need it any more.
In an interview situation I would put your offer under the microscope before deciding if I want to work with (not for) you. I can tell you without any shade of irony that I have more choices of good companies that you have of good candidates for a position in my field, so if being in a weak negotiating position you would pull the "have you got a degree" nonsense in front of me you would lose me, to the detriment of your organization.
My advice is not to be dogmatic.
Obtaining formal education is a good indicator of character, all other things being equal, the fact is that normally all the things that should matter to differentiate candidates aren't equal 99% of the time, thus Uni education is a differentiator that clever hirers use rarely.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Many folks here are talking about HR departments.
Ha! Companies with a few employees will not have such luxury. That is the place where you can start and where you have got a better chance.
Build your expertise, get some certifications and you will be where you want sooner than you think.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I don't have a degree and I have a great job in IT. It's at a university actually. :-) I also know many professionals in IT, including current and former coworkers, without degrees. My former manager went from being a housewife, to a librarian's assistant, to a Technician, to Manager in less than 10 years without any formal training.
My coworkers with degrees are great at what they do, and I highly value having a degree of some sort, but I don't think the degree gave them what they needed to do the job. Some of the coworkers with degrees have completely unrelated degrees like history, or English.
All of that aside, if you can get a degree, DO. You will most likely be paid more, be more respected by your peers, and make lifelong friends with people who can recommend you when you apply at the company they work for.
Best of luck to you adh0c
Borphos
Frankly unless you're up for management I don't see a need for a degree.
First of all, the company I work for (global corp with 500k+ employees) doesn't give a damm if you have a degree or not (at least here in Europe). However, if you have no experience, they allow you to work your way up the ladder, which is in my opinion best way of making a career despite the degree. Throughout my 9 years career I've seen bunch of college graduates making a fast track management careers in IT, but they have never been as good leaders as the people who just work their way up old fashion way. So yes, you can have the job no problem, just expect it's going to take the time to get better money, respect and responsibility.
The real question is not EDUCATION vs. EXPERIENCE, because experience means education. Most of the programmers that don't have a degree did study by themselves. The real question is diplomas vs. experience. Companies an people tend to believe that a diploma on the wall is a proof of something. Let me tell you that is just a proof of the ignorance. Internet and programming evolved thanks to enthusiasts that didn't care so much for a diploma. And I would hire anytime an experienced programmer over a diplomat one.
I've had conversations with people that have a "proper CompSci education" and they couldn't hold an intelligent conversation about programming with a monkey.
The ability to speak to monkeys would be a plus in this tight job market.
I'll be graduating in December, meaning I'll have my degree and all, and despite spending the last 4.5 years working in the "IT Industry" (support, web dev, quality assurance) I'm still finding it very difficult to find a job. But, given the sheer number of positions that require a degree to even be considered, I'd say you're penalizing yourself before hand. Best bet - internships and on the job learning. I have had very few classes which directly will apply to the job area I've chosen (sys admin ideally). Its been the on the job experience that has landed me the interviews thus far, but that only gets me so far, and only if I get my foot in the door first - which is what I'm now coming to realize is what a degree is for.
I agree that having a degree from a respected institution tends to help open doors and make life easier in general. Some larger and more conservative companies will not even hire or promote you without a bachelors degree or better. However, I wouldn't say that all individuals would be well advised to pursue a degree, especially if they're already doing well in the working world.
At many smaller organizations it's more a function of how intelligent, capable, and sophisticated you are. Many people ascribe to "lack of degree" problems that are really the result of poor communication skills or lack of polish (which may tend to correlate with formal education but are _not_ the same thing). Someone that has these skills is far less likely to be passed over in a more entrepreneurial organization that cares more about results than procedures or appearance. Someone with solid communication skills, that understands the concerns of management, and has broader interests, and so on will fair much better (even over people with degrees from presumably good schools).
If one cannot attend a well respected institution and/or obtain a somewhat relevant degree for whatever reason (e.g., financial, educational background, etc), then essentially dropping out of the work force for 4 or more years is not necessarily a good decision. This time out of the work force or working part-time is an opportunity cost, more so if they have some highly needed skill-set or a particular opportunity available to them at that moment that they would otherwise turn away from. This is even more true if one is not going to get a lot out of the degree because they're not motivated or interested in the work.
I have known tons of people with degrees (BS - PhD) from some of the best schools in the country that basically go nowhere because they frankly never got much value out of their education (i.e., they just cruised through because that's what was easy) and/or lacked the intelligence or the work ethic to add real value. It's far from an automatic key to success. Intelligent people with the focus and the drive to bring real insight to problems are rare commodity in this world, with or without extensive formal education, and these are the people that tend to succeed in areas like IT, business, etc.
In short, while a bachelors degree tends to help significantly, it depends a lot on the situation and the answer is much less obvious the further one gets away from high school.
Accreditation is important, but even a student with the best grades from the finest engineering institution may turn out to be the greatest cheater.
Yet I may not have been in school, be just as smart and capable as anyone on your team, but cannot get a job at your company. Why? Because I didn't pony up $40k for a piece of paper like everyone else?
I have no college degree at all in any major and I have consecutively held 3 senior level development positions in the last 15 years and have even been on the hiring end a few times. Admittedly, I have taken some courses at a local community college just to keep up with technology but mostly I've found that I learn better on my own. I've often been asked during interviews if I have ever had a hard time finding a job because I have no degree and the answer is a resounding "NO". While interviewing for my current job I had several interviews and 3 offers. If you look close at every job posting they usually say BS "or equivelent experience". I'm not telling anyone to quit school, the advantage I had was that I have been obsessed with computers and programming since I was a kid. By the time I was looking for my first job I had already written dozens of programs and had extensive experience building my own machines. My first position was as an entry-level in-house programmer, but I moved up through the ranks and gained experience along the way. Four years into the position, I held a senior level title; the same amount of time it takes to get a BS and I actually got paid to get experienced. As someone who actually looks at resumes, I, personally, don't look at the degrees; I look at experience, what skills the person has used that parallel our needs and more importantly, I google the crap out of the person's name and visit the links they put on their resume. I want to see if someone is programming for their own enjoyment. If someone really loves computers so much that they do it at home, the are bound to be good. So if you have done projects on your own, definitely put them on your resume. There's no harm in sending your resume without college credentials, the worst thing they'll do is throw it in the trash and move on, but you won't get any calls if you don't send them out at all. You gotta play to win ;)
-cor-
Ugh, thank you. I am so tired of people assuming that because I'm white, I've never had problems. My dad left my mother 3 weeks before my youngest brother was born (and he was premature at that). She had a newborn, 3yr old, and 6yr old at home. We were on and off welfare as she worked her ass off to support us, and we went without a lot of things for most of my childhood. (Think no power, cooking whatever was left in the fridge in a pot over a kerosine heater to keep from starving.)
All this ensured that I now do not care about shallow things, and I don't look much beyond necessities when spending, even if I can afford things. And I learned that you have to work very hard if you want to achieve anything. My mom did that, and she was able to get off welfare quickly, we slowly moved up from terrible apartments to an okay one, to a good one, etc... she now has her own house, nice car, etc. Personally I worked hard to learn what I know and get where I am--no family friends, no inheritance, nobody handed me anything.
Sorry for the rant, I just completely agree with you here, and I get so aggravated when people assume things about how I got where I am now.
10 FILL MUG WITH COFFEE
20 DRINK COFFEE
30 GOTO 10
I started out 'professionally' in 2003 as a desktop support technician. I did that for four years slowly advancing at one location until my official title was computer support specialist. During that time, I did a lot of system admin stuff even though my title didn't reflect it. I also took the opportunity to volunteer all kinds of other work, such as developing internal web applications for the company I worked for and pushing new technologies on the boss and getting those implemented. Eventually, I had enough broad experience to move on. I then ended up as the internal systems engineer for an ISP before I moved on again a year later to a better job. The only education I have is about a year of community college where I picked up a certificate which is actually worthless paper since it's not a degree. I do have my CCNA but I don't know how much pull that thing has, if any. So, the bottom line: start at the bottom. Put in as much extras as your boss and/or company will allow which will develop your skills and fatten your resume, then move on to better things, all without a degree. If I can do it, I'm guessing many others can as well. For the first time in my life, my current job (and highest paying) contacted me via an online job posting board instead of me having to contact them. A broad range of skills and experience helped make that happen and not a degree.
You can get a job as a Sys Admin without a degree of any sorts. I did it. Now I had to take the crap jobs for about 9 years not making jack squat for a salary. But then I got into that one place after I got my "or equal experience" time and here I am... A Sys Admin... Yes it is possible but you have to do the crap jobs first to get up to the good job.
I am a full-time network administrator, without any IT degrees. I am just finishing my associates degree, and have taken some training from SANS.org, but had little IT experience when I was hired. The jobs are out there, but hard to find.
"Trust that little voice in your head that says 'Wouldn't it be interesting if...' and then do it." - Duane Michals
Well I've been given the title by managers and CEOs of the companies I have worked for. I have survived for at least 25 years with the working title of "Engineer". I have a patent so at least I can claim inventor as well. So Mr. Asshat you may shut the *$%@ up.
But I admit in Canada I cannot claim to be an "Engineer". I do not have the Iron Ring nor the education required to have that title.
Why bother
The people without degrees who got into the industry during the boom and feel threatened by people with degrees say: "You don't need a degree! They are a waste of time and money! I've worked with people with degrees and they were absolute idiots!" The people with degrees who are working on their MBA and currently in management say: "Degrees prove that you are dedicated and have soft skills unlike the unwashed masses of rack monkeys in the Datacenter. If given a choice between a degreed and non-degreed individual, I will choose the degreed. BTW, my boss just told me that my lip-print has been permanently branded onto his ass. He showed me. There's absolutely no hair in that area. I was flattered!" Then there are realists like me who have a 4 year degree in C.S. 5+ years real-world experience and a couple of certs and a job working as a Sys Admin says: It all depends on where you live and where you apply. Some companies and hiring managers resent any type of degrees (because usually they don't have one themselves), then there are the HR filters from the Fortune XXX companies that use keyword filters to reject certain resumes. Then there are the anal companies that require you to have a certain GPA in order to even be considered. It's your job to figure out which company is which and apply accordingly. This ain't the 90's and the days where people who "like computers" get hired into IT positions with insane salaries are long fucking gone. The truth is that the market is glutted with experienced IT talent fighting over meager salaries. IT job seekers these days need every competitive advantage they can get. That includes a degree, certifications and real-world experience. If you have neither or one out of three, you're fucked. That's the cold hard truth.
Certs, and on-the-job experience is what you will need. But don't think its going to be easy. You MUST get certified. Get Net+, A+ and as many Microsoft certs as you can stand. There are some schools around that will offer training and the certs. (I went to TechSkills) There are job placement programs, of course, and temp/contract to hire companies like Robert Half Tech., and Sapphire Tech. They do not tend to offer "Good" IT jobs, but will get you experience, which more and more is...well...more important to a company then your education. They would be stupid to hire a student right out of college, than someone with 3 to 5 years on-the-job experience under their belt. I'm a college drop out who did terrrrrible in high school. After working for 'Tha Shack' for 4 years and getting laid off, I decided to break into IT. I signed on to a Vocational College and 3 Years and a few dreadfully awful IT jobs later, here I am working IT for a fairly small, privately owned, wealthy, international company. It's exactly the job I had been looking for for so long. Good pay, benefits, fun, educational, not a call center IT job. A wise, older friend of mine once told me. "The best jobs are never advertised" and to "Develop a network of people" Get certified, work some crummy IT call centers and what-not and you will eventually find a hidden gem.
A lot of visas require degrees/diplomas + experience. ie TN/H1. I'm a Canadian working in the US on an TN, for which a university degree is a requirement.
If you want to keep your options open, I would seriously recommend pursuing a degree. A CS degree, despite what some have said, isn't just a lot of hoop jumping. You will learn many fundamentals of computers from hardware to databases to software engineering. Actually, the hoops are there no matter what path you take, degree or self taught. In the course of a 4 year degree you will definitely take a lot stuff that seems meaningless but some of it will be interesting even if it is not in your field. Will you have to kiss the occasional prof's butt? Sure. But this is reality and even more so in the corporate world. Almost every colleague I knew that got a promotion got it because his/her manager loved them - definitely not on technical merit alone. Want to take the self taught path? Better be prepared to work your ass off. From the posts here most of the guys who made it this way worked at least the first few years in crap jobs. Can you really see yourself working in a call center?
But to each their own. If you're an entrepreneurial type with *a lot* of motivation I'm sure you'll be successful eventually either way.
Best of luck.
Bad advice. We don't need more paper tigers littering the streets with their hopes dashed. A certification without real-world experience is useless and limits you to one vendor's technology. The most valuable certs are vendor neutral, requires re-certification and X amount of years of actual industry experience in the discipline. Both the CISSP and PMP require such. MS and Cisco certs just turn you into a marketing bitch for the rest of your career and if someone threw a Linux box or Procurve switch in front of you, your eyes would cross and glaze over.
Without reading each comment I'll share one more aspect and that's the starting salary. I'm a VP/IT for a $B company and because I don't have a degree I see it as less a requirement as the skillset. The resume is key to show the various skills you have acquired. Then if you ace the interview you may be in the door. Now comes the salary issue. Since you're not in IT you may make something less than I would pay for a sysadmin. I pay around $50sK for a Windows and $60s for Linux guys. More or less depending on my exact setup or vertical apps. Now if you're new to IT without a degree and making less say $30K then I'm not going to bump you $20K, it just doesn't happen in corporate america. Now your in the door making $35K but will take years to build to par with accredited coworkers. All this means is get the first job and jump about every 18 months to another company for a $8-10K bump at each cycle. After that you'll get the salary you deserve. The final kicker is that you'll have a harder time rising farther up the chain without the degree. Good Luck
It is hard to get any job right now without a degree. There have been so many layoffs that many people with degrees and experience are willing to take pay cuts. So people with degrees and experience to the front of the line, then people with experience, then people with degrees, then people with no degrees and no experience. If you can't afford to go to school try doing some certification programs, they are better then nothing.
"It's a cynical way of saying that completing college shows you are capable of taking on something and seeing it through to completion.... I would not consider hiring someone without a college degree."
..... oh, wait....
What if they went to college but didn't finish?
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Why the fuck do you blindly base what you'll pay based on someone's prior history? Some companies simply cannot pay as much as others--especially smaller ones and non-profits. Based on your logic, grads fresh out of college should make no more than $10k since they were making $0 before. Do you see how screwed up that is? It makes NO SENSE to use previous salary as a litmus test for what you're willing to pay. I'd lie to you about my salary and tell HR at my current job to only disclose my start date and my job title--most do that anyways.
I think you'd be right about that. It's the Ivy leagues which favor legacies, and I think it's also the Ivy Leagues which have a history of discrimination.
It's true the Ivy Leagues aren't the only game. But they are part of the game, and thus they contribute to the statistics. As long as one school prefers legacies, and as long as that school's legacy includes bigotry, then college degrees will be fairly considered the fruit of a poisoned tree. Why shouldn't we demand a zero tolerance policy for discrimination?
Have not worked for one of those you listed, but I am a Sr. software architect for one of the 3 credit reporting bureaus.
Thanks,
Leabre
I highly recommend the book "What color is your parachute" which teaches you how to land the job you want regardless of education or experience. That said, I have seen many of the facets of this question. I have seen folks get technical training (but NOT a degree) in the US Air Force or other military branches. When they get out of the military, the training, experience (and, often, their security clearance) combine for a non-degreed entry into the civilian workforce.
As a former computer science professor, I helped people earn college degrees, or just technical training certificates. Both will help you land a job.
As a Boeing employee, I KNOW there are IT jobs we have that do not require college degrees. They do not pay as well as our jobs that do require college degrees. Boeing encourages employees at all levels to continue their education; pay raises and promotions often go to those who do so. Now, the hiring manager may decide that even though the job itself does not require a degree, he wants to hire the most qualified individual. All things being equal, the person with the CS or IT degree will win the job before the non-degreed person. (But all things are rarely equal. The "team player" type person with four years military experience may well beat out the college grad that was terrified during the interview.)
Do what you can do until you can figure out how to do what you can't do.
If you want a position for sysadmin in the Microsoft world, you're going to have to spend a few thousand getting certifications. You'll need those whether you have a degree or not.
If you're going for a position with Linux or Unix, check out a local LUG (Linux Users Group) for some great resources and job leads.
Don't stop there though. ... You never know when opportunities pop up and where, so keep your eyes open.
This is close, I think, if you want to work for a bigger shop.
As above posters have said, the HR Nazis read the spec and it says "degree in cs or related dis" and the door stays shut unless you know someone.
Get yourself enrolled in a college and go after that degree. You owe it to your future to expand your horizons.
But small and medium biz need help, and in this economy if they can get somebody junior to help BigBuxBob, there's a good chance you can get in the door, study your ass off - learn about EVERYTHING: mail, databases, LDAP, Active Directory, Web Application Servers, IIS & Apache, Linux, Unix, Windoz. Expect to take your lumps and pay your dues. Be ready when Bob has a vacation coming to fill his shoes!
A few tips:
- NETWORK - join users groups and meet people.
- Volunteer to help Non Profits with IT Stuff - heck, even helping cable a network is a good thing for your resume.
- Learn everything about networking and IP.
- Consume slashdot, sourceforge, and support sites.
- Keep a paper brain or a huge doc file that contains urls and commands you have used.
- Have a thumb-drive with a toolkit you can use to fix probs on unix, linux, windows. There are plenty out there - find and compile them for your self.
- Publish - have a blog people can find (which means having useful content, not just drivel).
- Never, ever, be without a current resume ready to email or hand out with 30 minutes notice!
Within a year or so, something will pop.
One final thought: Ask colleagues with degrees what their degree is in. Then ask if they are working in the field of their major. Approx 2/3 in tech will say no. Ask the rest how many hours (not credit hours - actual hours of class and study only) in their four years were in their Major. The answer is probably fewer than 1000. First two years and much of last two years is to make a well-rounded student who can (should be able to) read and write. The extremely competent may have LOTS more hours or be extremely bright, but the average joe... um, maybe not.
Do NOT be impressed by MS degrees from University of Boom Chalawalla or East Cha-ching. I've worked with a lot of guys with MS who can't write a script, couldn't troubleshoot a sick Apache.
Be confident. You will make it.
I didn't say that the State Schools didn't have a history of discrimination- just that the discrimination seemed more in keeping with the mission of the school.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
While there are times I wish I had one, my work speaks for itself. Don't get me wrong; life would have been easier and I probably could slack off more (my experience with degree'd IT people) and easily get away with it.
Not having a degree does mean you have to work harder and gain more experience. It helps to have people along your career that can vouch for you as well. I started my first 'corporate' job as a Tech Support rep. Worked there until I became a Senior Systems Engineer (6yr) and then moved onto my current job as an IT Manager by knowing the Owners of this company through my experience with the last. I've also gotten to know many in the healthcare and general technology industry.
Generally; as long as you work hard, know the right people and can easily prove your strengths you should be able to get a job just about anywhere. The more you bullshit the less likely you are to get a job. Most people in the industry that are worth a grain of salt can detect BS a mile away.
Government and big business HR departments will require the often useless piece of paper. Small organizations are much less paperwork bound. Trouble is how do you find those? I'm not at all sure.
I agree. I've done well so far in my career, and my degree (English, not CS) has had little to do with it. I started as a computer operator working through school, and moved into systems administration, then later management.
When I moved into management at my current employer, I rewrote the requirements for the positions under me so that "equivalent experience" was allowed as a substitute for the degree. The degree does indeed show me that you can stick with something, sometimes under absurd circumstances or in ridiculous environments. It doesn't tell me that you know anything about systems administration. In fact, most of the people I work with who have CS degrees know little or nothing about what I do.
Equivalent experience shows me the same ability to stick it out; but with the added benefit of some expected level of skill in this particular arena.
So, my advice is to go ahead and apply, even for those positions that ask for a degree. Some of them may have more flexibility than they let on, and if you have the skills, you'll have an advantage over your job competitors.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
No, but if you fail a degree course, you can't learn.
The question wasn't if I deserve it, but whether it was possible likely that someone in my position could be in my position. If you see what I mean. BTW - as it happens, being dyslexic is often a benefit in my particular line of work.
Because you can - or because you should?
Another option is to find a startup that's hurting for employees.
I'm still going to school, and I managed to land a job doing web design for a company that's doing pretty good business.
I guess it'd be a good idea to notice that the main reason I got the job because of who I knew though. I only heard about the job because a friend of mine informed me: they weren't advertising as needing people.
God is dead -- Nietzsche
Nietzsche is dead -- God
Zombie Nietzsche lives! -- Zombie Nietzsche
Nearly 30 years ago, not too long after Viet Nam (when it was not as socially acceptable to do so), I enlisted in the Air Force (as a mainframe operator) straight out of high school, for four main reasons, (not necessarily in this order of importance):
Four years was enough, I never planned to make the military a career, but these days I'm still in the field I knew I'd be in as a kid. Some onsite work (routers, telco installs, break-fix, etc.), some sysadmin for small businesses, some coding, some webwork & hosting. Don't like cubicles, so no desk job per se, but happy with the meld of vocation and avocation.
I've also maintained an attitude throughout the years of rather knowing how to actually do things than collect pieces of paper. So, I may not have a 100K+ desk job, or a wall full of certs, but I'm busy, and happy.
Good luck!
If you saw the money I am making, with the only expenses being a storage unit. You'd ask where do I sign up.
I am going to night school at California bapstist university. You can work hours during the day and school at night and in weekends.
You have to prove to HR and yourself you can handle real work and a degree proves it. MCSE or without you are nothing without it in states such as California.
Like a job you may have to work 60 hours a week to get promoted and the same is true with working and going to school as businesses want people to not be lazy and take the weekend off (sarcasm on taking a weekend off).
http://saveie6.com/
THis is true. Its infuriating to many who spend 100k and years of their time for a degree but its true. A degree means you are smart and can learn. Thats it.
Its a great way in the US to start out with a degree with a low salary for 2 years until you can prove yourself and can then start making bigger bucks later on.
For the Dutch GP I will say what was true 10 years ago is no longer true today. If you were born 10 years later you could not just simply take a jr level software engineer position without a degree. Today employers will just throw out your application and resume in the trash.
http://saveie6.com/
Linus studied at the University of Helsinki between 1988 to 1996 before graduating.
He might not have needed to go to University but it sounds like he thinks the experience helped him...
If you want to get a job without a degree - thats cool - no problem.
Here is a great tip - when you put your application in...actually ring the agency up and introduce yourself and have an open and honest chat about the position you applied for. Very few people actually do this.
Once you have a job - work hard and take an interest in the company and by respectful of other people. Be aware of your experience and take full responsibility of tasks assigned to you. Follow up with people and ask for feedback on your performance. After quite a few years of working like this you will find yourself moving up the ladder.
Good luck!