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EMA Suggests Point-Of-Sale Game Activation To Fight Piracy
Gamasutra reports on a set of standards (PDF) published by the Entertainment Merchants Association to promote the use of technology that would "disable" games and DVDs until they are activated when purchased. "The effort is codenamed 'Project Lazarus,' and the EMA says it's assembled a consortium of retailers, home video companies and video game publishers to see how easily such 'benefit denial technology' could be implemented, and to evaluate possible cost-benefit analyses. The initiative is similar to security tags used in clothing retail that spill ink on garments if they're forcibly removed, thereby destroying the item. In such a situation, shoplifting is discouraged by implementing a solution that only the retailer can remove at the point of sale."
Games activate you!
Make the games good, remove the damned drm and make them affordable. How is that difficult to understand?
I will buy games after a half year or so, so that there is a good no-cd crack and the price is about half. I can't afford $60+ on a game. $20, ya no problem. I'll wait for the price drop, but drm, shit that's a deal breaker, I won't even bother with a hacked version.
I'm not anti-social, I'm anti-idiot.
This sounds like a solution for people who steal keys out of retail boxes.
If the key isn't activated due to a sale, it can't be used online.
I see no problems with this. I hope they don't think it will actually affect single player game piracy.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Anti-theft? Yeah, right.
No doubt the activation would be tied into the person buying or first owner - meaning that this is merely trying to kill second hand sales for consoles the same way CD keys do it for PCs.
So basically the pirates will have a version that has nothing to trip people up but the legit customer who happens to not get activated by the minimum wage clerk is screwed and must wait AND waste gas to take it back? Yeah, please video game industry, make it easier and easier to justify piracy. I have plenty of money and like to support the people who make games I enjoy but it's really easier to just pirate this stuff since the game industry is more and more anti-consumer all the time.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
However, not everyone has an internet connection. For those who do have an internet connection, blocking it from being accessed is just a short hosts file edit away. From there, a single crack and your game is playable single player. It also requires all servers to be hosted by the game maker and their licensees because otherwise the server software will be cracked within two hours of it being released to the public (that's actually assuming the crackers are lazy). This is highly unlikely to work.
Remember, no refunds on opened software. Have a nice day, thank you for shopping Super-Duper Mart!
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
" EMA Suggests Point-Of-Sale Game Activation To Fight Piracy"
"...shoplifting is discouraged ..."
"...Piracy..."
"...shoplifting..."
I can only assume that the title of the article refers to the actual "ARRR I GONNA STEEL YER GAMES!" piracy - which i think is a lot more similar to shop lifting than to copying bits.
Now it all makes sense - this isn't about people ripping then torrenting the latest games (bit copying piracy), it is about preventing physical copies being stolen (by pirates...presumably)
The initiative is similar to security tags used in clothing retail that spill ink on garments if they're forcibly removed, thereby destroying the item. In such a situation, shoplifting is discouraged by implementing a solution that only the retailer can remove at the point of sale.
But it's not similar at all. Similar would be putting an acetone-filled tag through the hole in the CD that only the retailer can remove, to destroy it if it's shoplifted.
The reason the difference is important is this scheme isn't to fight shoplifting, the theft of a physical item. This is to fight copyright infringement, and it's like fighting people who make cheap knockoffs of designer clothes. Admittedly, this is much easier to do on a large scale than copying a physical item, but the scale of it does not magically make it become theft.
And the other part of where the analogy breaks down? I don't need an internet connection to put on my clothes after the retailer takes off the tag.
How does that work? Do you have to burn it to a DVD and then bring it into the store for them to activate it? OR are you supposed to "activate" (aka crack it) at POS?
It's all fun and games till someone divides by 0. Then it's hilarious.
I'd like to know when internet piracy and shoplifting became the same thing. It's not like someone swipes a legit copy of the shelves somewhere everytime you download a game.
...after the first AAA "must have" title that comes out using this for a crack to appear. As said in the past DRM is defective by design, it simply will never work if the end user is the person who needs to both use and read the data. You can not then hide the data from that user. You either have access, or you do not have access, you can't have partial access in this case (i.e. read access, but not copy access), it simply does not exist. If you can read it, you can save it or copy it...
At most, the only thing you can do is restrict online play to legitimate CD Keys, but even then, key generators do get produced, and in some cases, legitimate purchasers get screwed when someone/thing guesses the key that they may have received in the box, or from the register, or whatever.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
The courts may or may not agree that an unactivated game is defective and thus the consumer is entitled to a refund by law, but I have no doubt the conservation with my credit card company would go like this:
"Hello? American Express? Retailer sold me a defective game and refuses to refund my charge card. They say that since I opened it I can't return it. Their return policy does state that opened software items are not returnable, however, the item is clearly defective and I have no reason to believe another copy would not be defective as well. They've been completely unreasonable about this and I'd like to issue a chargeback."
"Okay, Mr. AC. We'll take care of that for you right away."
That's the Great thing about pirating things, the "Refund" is the delete folder key :P
Simple they are still thinking that most pirated copies out there contain keys passed on by buyers, as opposed to key-genned keys.
So they think that getting the gamers info at POS gives them someone to point the finger at.
So in the end the only one I see getting a bad deal out of this is the buyer whose key inadvertently gets genned for the first pirated copy.
actually you are wrong. If a game you bought is defective and you have the receipt (and it's within I think 30 days) the store must replace the game for the same game. It's the law.
So I was mostly kidding, most stores will exchange defective software, they just won't refund you. In this case, they would then activate it correctly.
All the other points of the OP stand, such as the wasted gas, time, and inconvenience.
93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
It's not the same thing. But this solution is aimed at both problems.
I'm sure the companies losing oil tankers right left and center will sleep well tonight, know that someone's come up with a viable way of fighting piracy.
Follow me
I know a number of retailers stop this problem by using locking DVD cases that set off the door alarms. Usually the ones that have another alarm if someone stomps the case open. Shopperinc.com, the first site I hit on Google offers plenty of low cost ways to ensure that either a would-be shoplifter is going to have to be good at sneaking in the key equipment needed, or be able to run through the exit with security guards hot on their trail (and risk robbery charges as well as larceny).
Since effective technological measures are in place for this, why bother with screwing around with CD keys?
It is a *lot* harder to shoplift successfully media in one of these cases than it is to hit the usual sites, download a patch or a torrent. This is the old security adage of why add layers of protection to a door when the burglar can just enter through the window?
Wow you have a delete folder key? My keyboard only came with one delete key and I have to use it for everything :(
I'm guessing this is how this idea works:
1) The game is on the shelf and has a CD Key.
2) The store clerk registers the CD key at the time of purchase, making it valid. (Much like a Gift Card)
3) The game won't install without a valid CD key, which it checks over the internet or with an over-the-phone verification (much like the current Windows activation).
Unless they have some much more elaborate plan, this is probably the method they're going to use... Now, what's wrong with this plan?
1) What happens 10 years down the line when the game is abandonware? Can I still install it, even though the Key can't verify, and the company doesn't exist anymore?
2) What if I want to play the game on my laptop?
3) What if the store clerk can't register the key? Networks fail, servers get busy, scanners misread, hard drives fail, and don't forget human error!
4) How will this stop pirates? A pirate will just crack the game anyways, create their own installer, or setup a program to report to the installer "Why yes, XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX-XXXX is a valid key!"
Somehow I don't think this plan to prevent piracy will work.
--Pathway
Try ctr+alt+delete.
Control is an illusion, order our comforting lie. From chaos, through chaos, into chaos we fly
actually you are wrong. If a game you bought is defective and you have the receipt (and it's within I think 30 days) the store must replace the game for the same game. It's the law.
Which of course is just boatloads of help when your CD drive isn't compatible with SecuROM, or the game doesn't start up at all due to some odd incompatibility or bug that the publisher may or may not deem worth fixing.
I'll stick with consoles until they fix that, or at least specifically state that returns will be accepted for defective software rather than just defective media (Stardock, and I believe Gas Powered Games, seem to be taking steps in that direction)
Here in Germany, such technology has been in use by media retailers for about 20 years now!! When you walk into a media shop, items usually have a thick, metallic, self-adhesive tag on them (with white plastic casing), that is made inactive at the cash register. At the entrance and exit, there are detectors that use a magnetic field to see if someone walks through with a shoplifted item. An alarm goes off if that happens. I'm not sure whether that is using RFID or a similar technology. But it seems to work really well. The downside for the customer is that it requires a pointed tool and some force to remove the self-adhesive tag at home, often leading to scratches to the item's surface.
deltree
alternatively, rm -r.
It's the law. perhaps. but not many 'manager'-types at best buy know that. and will argue with you. especially if you come in waving your dick around proclaiming that there is a law they don't know.
and you're truly worried about pirating, quit the futility and put out an online game. Sure, sounds like a mindlessly trivialised suggestion, but really, any online account based game has basically the least complained about, but most restrictive DRM running. You have zero ability to play anywhere but online after logging in and you don't complain about it. Genius.
Why do few people chip their xbox 360's? Because they are afraid of detection on xbox live. Same with the Wii. The only true, accepted DRM is one that protects online usage.
Not atall saying that there isn't a veritable mass of problems accompanying such a notion, just saying, look at what works, rather than this silly nonsense that makes almost no headway.
I record my sleeptalking
How will this affect secondhand game sales? If it somehow manages to screw them over, I bet we'll see every game publisher implement it before this time next year.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
How is it aimed at all at piracy? Pirates don't use activation keys, they use cracks. It's a shoplifting measure at most, and retailers already keep games and keys behind the counter with empty boxes on the shelves. It's a solution to a non-existent problem that will just cause more hassle for the legitimate consumer and be bypassed as usual by pirates.
Consoles are the ultimate locked down DRM. Ever tried to make a back-up copy of a console game?
Seriously, stealing from a B&M? The only reason to steal a key is to play a multi-player game.
The solution for the PC is digital downloads. The xbox on the other hand is getting so cheap now that you can play burned games on the thing and make up the cost of buying a second xbox in single-player 3 games.
With torrents, rapidshare and usenet, why steal media from a store? I guess life is hardest for the stupid.
True... However... It is also extremely true that "Console Games Just Work!" Not being able to make a back-up is not that big a deal to me. I take good care of my stuff from the get-go. Not being able to easily use my stuff is more of a concern...
Console games don't require installation. A reinstall, a RAM upgrade, and a video card upgrade with newer EA games, and I am looking at either begging their CS for permission to install a game I bought, or buying a new copy.
...which will save me lots of money.
I'm more and more and turning away from major game companies. There were quite a few games I really wanted to buy (Bioshock, Silent Hunter 3, Spore, GTA 4, and quite a few others) and then couldn't, due to ridiculous copy protections (Digital Restriction Management going nuts, no thanks).
Thus I sniffed around the indy games market more and more, and found some really nice ones. Simple Flash shoot-em-ups like Robokill (http://www.rocksolidarcade.com/games/robokill/) or wonderful enjoyment like World of Goo (http://2dboy.com/games.php, PC, Mac, soon Linux). Much cheaper, get it immediately, no copy protection at all, and... better. Yes, better. Not because of the graphics (although WOG is amazing), but because of the pure fun.
So: thanks. A lot. No, really. I'm spending less money, and enjoying myself more.
Free PC version of ChipWits at http://www.breueronline.de/klaus/chipwits/
Obviously you've cached the wikipedia how-to.
What? Best Buy loves it when people come in waving their dicks around. Why else would they call it the Greek Squad?
Console games "just work" the same way an apple does.
Games get broken all the time, have glitches, errors, etc. The only difference is XBOX360/PS3/wii are slightly less locked than their previous versions so you can fix some of that via software updates.
Examples of console fiascos:
physical (xbox red ring crap)
software: PS3 update problems : http://www.technewsworld.com/story/63690.html?wlc=1228202794
Remember, "just works" also means "you can't fix the problem/nobody outside of the manufacturer can", as well.
I think this would be more akin to prepaid phone cards. You know the ones the clerk has to swipe then type in the code before the card is actually activated? Instead of cracking disc checks and serial numbers crackers would just crack the activation method making the whole thing a waste of time. What I wanna to see is an 'Ask Slashdot' on how to stop (or even slow) videogame piracy. I think short of MMO's there is no one method that will thwart pirates.
I'm poor. Please donate. http://albanypcs.com
That I'm seeing console games on some of the new consoles shipping with crippling bugs still in it cancel part of that "Just Works" aspect to me, especially since I don't hook my consoles up to the net for downloading patches. If I wanted to be downloading patches, I'd probably buy a PC game.
However, one thing that is true, is that at least with a console, I know it's not going to fuck up every other IMPORTANT thing I may have to do like on the computer. The console is for games and games alone.
Although I'm starting to feel my age a bit I think. I'm going more and more retro with every console generation. (You know, back in the days when the games Just Worked.)
All games have to be played online. There won't be single player games anymore, there'll just be web based games or virtual worlds you can play single player-style or massively multiplayer style, but in either case the data for the game world will only be on the server.
Then there'll be web based word processors where you can only store your data online, and you have to pay for it. No method to download it to your hard drive, but you can email it to people and they have to pay to use the app you need to read the document. If you need to move your data around in other ways, you probably are a pirate (in their mind).
The RIAA and MPAA then pull all their content and make it available only online. For a fee. You'll never touch that data again without the authorization of the server. (I actually see this coming first.)
In short, I could see companies making sure all of their copyrighted data is only available on their servers.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
...Which is why I carry around a copy of all relevant laws concerning consumer protection. When a manager argues, I shove that paper in his face and go "Capitulate or we call police, lawyers, and Federal Authorities for federal-level charges (If they apply.)
Come prepared and you'll win every time.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Yeah, if anyone accepted American Express.
Since shoplifting doesn't count as a lost sale to either the publisher or distributer, I fail to see why they would be interested in stopping it.
What I can see them being interested in is preventing retailers from breaking the agreed streetdate for a title, by not allowing them to activate the products until day of release.
I only buy pepper spray that's been tested on anti-vivisectionists.
Neither of which are problems caused by games. NVidia have recalled a whole bunch of graphics cards because they've got hardware issues every bit as bad as the RROD. Microsoft, Apple and Redhat have all released OS updates that have caused headaches like the PS3 firmware fiasco.
But a console is designed from the ground up to be used for playing videogames in an environment where you've got limited control over what else the box can do. So publishers don't need Starforce killing your second DVD drive, device drivers doing stupid things and so on.
Also, on a more simple point, if they did, those changes still wouldn't impact the ability of my PC to perform the more serious tasks I ask of it. So I keep work on my PC, and games on my consoles, and both continue to work (for standard Microsoft values of 'work', obv).
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Except that the law is, in fact, more enforceable than whatever manager-types know.
If the manager-type doesn't know, or doesn't understand, you threaten to sue, or press charges. If they continue to be difficult, you follow through.
And if that doesn't work, move to a country where the law is enforced.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
at the number of big box stores which don't lock these game cards up. The problem is especially bad at Target, where more than a dozen of different games were obviously "opened" along the seam. Even after explaining it to the the customer service people I swear they didn't care or understand. I did get them to allow for my opening the box in front of them to confirm if it had a game card in it, took three of the ones that looked sealed to get it.
Stores need to understand, these things are as valuable as the gift cards they sell. They are real money.
Any subscription based game should follow the activation method, it will save a lot of grief for the customer. It really helps us more than the stores because it isn't easy to get the store to refund it (I would hate to see what BB would think if you told them the game card was missing and you had left the store already). Yet for stand alone games I don't think it is necessary
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
I mean, putting the key INSIDE the box instead is too difficult, isn't it?
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Who is going to pay for the software modifications to the POS (Point Of Sale) systems for the retailers to handle this?
I'm not sure if it's going to be a "change a few lines of code" thing, or "entirely new program". Not to mention the differing POS systems that retailers have - they're mostly based off of Windows, granted, but they all look like they're running a different version of software specific to a retailer. And, of course, the deployment costs would be passed down the line to you, the consumer. Isn't that special? :D
"In caelum, illuc est libertas."
This is becoming a thing of the past, the PS3 now requires installs for quite a few games. Nothing like sitting for 20mins waiting for a game to install. There is also the issue of having to micromanage game installs on a 60gb hard drive.
I only have one gaming rig
What do you do when friends or relatives come to your home to play video games with you? Or when other people who live with you want to play video games with you?
and I have a reliable internet connection
What do you recommend for gamers who cannot afford to purchase real estate and find employment in a place where the cable TV or telephone company is willing to install "a reliable internet connection"?
Ever tried to make a back-up copy of a console game?
Do DS and PSP count? Those are pirated to hell and back. And would developing a Free game with the same gameplay count (e.g. Frozen Bubble vs. Bust-A-Move, or StepMania vs. Dance Dance Revolution, or SuperTux vs. New Super Mario Bros., or Lockjaw vs. Tetris)?
If the DVD contains a mechanism that has to be activated before it can be used, then damage to the DVD is more likely to render it unplayable. I wouldn't buy a DVD on that basis. It's not like I have to buy DVDs, after all... they're a luxury good.
And the only computer game I regularly play is open source. The games I've paid for mostly sit on the bookshelf, so I more or less quit buying them.
And... how on earth would this fight piracy? It's just another copy protection variant, and it's inherently impossible to make an unbreakable copy protection mechanism... and once it's broken, it's broken. All it takes is one person to put the cracked version up on the Internet somewhere and it's "game over".
If there is a key, in any form, it can be cracked and someone can figure it out using a few copies and a keygen.
Almost. If the keys are generated with a digital signature mechanism such as RSA or ECC, you need the private key in order to make a keygen. If you replace the entire key verifier, you can't play online, just like you can't play online with a game using the system from the article that hasn't been activated.
All games have to be played online. There won't be single player games anymore, there'll just be web based games or virtual worlds you can play single player-style or massively multiplayer style
Due to laws such as COPPA in the United States, you can't sign up for one of these games until your 13th birthday. How will publishers work around this in order to deliver E-rated games? And how will publishers work around North American ISPs' utter failure to serve rural customers?
Here's the diff.
If your Nvidia graphics card in your PC goes bad, you can replace it, or do business with other companies. There is competition. Also, you can do it yourself. Not all companies get stupid PS3 firmware fiasco, but only with MS and apple are you stuck with what they've done until it's fixed. With other OS's you can regress back to other versions. Or shall I remind you of all the WGA problems that still exist due to changing hardware, etc?
With a console system, who else are you going to go? Nobody. They have a monopoly on every dollar you spend. You can't transfer games across platforms. Sure, you can keep it next gen and keep yourself locked into the same product, but not for more than a generation or two of that same system. That's how locked down it is. They don't need starforce, in purchasing one you signed up for a physical ball and chain DRM that is stronger and worse than starforce. Hell, you can't even choose your input device for games on a console. You are stuck with whatever they configure the game for! Try using a keyboard for GTA, or for old nintendo games on the wii. Oh wait, we have roms for that.
Hell, even cars are less locked down than consoles.
This is about preventing shoplifting.
You prevent shoplifting by putting the games behind the counter and putting the empty boxes on the shelf. It's low tech, reliable, and not a lot more manual than activation.
Provide the dealer with a printed card the size of the jewelbox they can put on the shelf without having to open the game and put the CD into storage like they do now. Problem solved, cheaply.
I hereby donate this idea to the public domain.
This is to make them money on used games sales. It has nothing to do with shoplifting. The game companies make $0 when a game is sold used. They're trying to figure out a way to make those people who buy games used have to pay them in order to play a game. If you need to activate it via online to get the game working at all, then even used single player games will require a payment to the game company to activate it.
-SaNo
move to a country where the law is enforced.
You mean, enforced in your favor.
Anyways, that is a pretty extreme reaction for a $60 game.
I'll be careful not to step on your pumas.
One of the most common issues with gift card theft is that they're put up on the rack in sequential order. So someone notes a few card numbers along the stack and, working with an inside buddy, waits for them to become activated. A little online purchasing and they've drained the card without ever having it in their physical possession.
Unless the key is inside the box (which makes it impossible to scan/register) then the same darn thing is going to happen.
Game manufacturers are never going to break out of the mindset that they have to protect their games from being copied. It happens even before the games are officially released now. In the eternal conflict between better weapons and heavier armor, better weapons always win. Those who do not learn from history etc., etc., etc..
I fully agree with making the clerk open the box to make sure the game card (which I assume contains the activation key) is included. That's a part of the product and no different from doing the same thing with a multi-part product. Then the useless game is the responsibility of the store that failed to prevent people from opening them and taking the game card. Rack up a few thousand games that can't be sold and then they might take physical security seriously.
Taking the game card/activation page is much different in practice than running out the door with a copy of the game. The full package WILL have security devices as it is considered shoplifting. That one part of the product will not so there's almost no risk involved unless you're caught opening the package.
Game companies removing negative reviews due to their DRM, new hoops for legit players to jump through just to play the game they purchased, the very real possibility that you aren't buying a perpetual license because they've tied it to some technology that will quite probably be made obsolete or abandoned. Yeah, I'm really interested in buying these products.
The REAL problem will come when you try to resell the used game to someone else. That is the TRUE intention of most of this "anti-piracy" nonsense, to bring an end to the secondary market for games (something music/movie/software studios have been trying for years).
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
It's to eventually tie your game sales to a real person. This is one step away from requiring the store clerk to see a valid driver's license before validating the game. Once real people can be identified (even if they give it away as a gift) in-game advertising becomes more profitable.
You're right, but still missing the real reason: to kill used game sales by requiring one-time-only activation on all titles.
Don't worry, MS has "innovated" this feature also (mostly because customers complained their DVD drive sounded like a freight train), and it was added to the 360's firmware in the last Dash update. The only console that DOESN'T need installation is the one that skipped including a hard drive this generation (and is consequently also hitting problems with DLC content filling up 256MB flash cards, so its a bit of a trade-off).
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
You in no way need to install games to play them on the 360. It is an option that makes the system slightly quieter and reduces loading times for some games. My only concern is that it will make developers lazier when it comes to optimising their games.
What's to say that the tech will remain optical?
As long as the duopoly that dominates North American home Internet access remains in power, legit Internet distribution of high-definition copies of non-free films won't eclipse legit optical distribution of high-definition copies of non-free films.
Buying games in stores?? On physical media?? How 1990s. Do people actually do that any more?
With an electronic distribution (Steam, for example) there is no shoplifting problem to begin with.
Perhaps they should rename it "Project Assfuck" - after all, that's what it's doing to the consumer.
The initiative is similar to security tags used in clothing retail that spill ink on garments if they're forcibly removed, thereby destroying the item.
Uhm... those tags come off if you get a rare earth magnet (say, from an old hard drive or something) anywhere near them.
Not that we're supposed to know how things work... after all, knowledge is evil, the almighty corporations want us to be dumb and stupid and drink Brawndo.
Seriously, now. This will not only be cracked damn quick, but it'll fail the first time someone has a non-'net-connected home box (dvd player, console, etc) and they'll get up in arms about it. Plus, it's already been tried once, remember Circuit City and Divx?
I think people forget just how long copy-protection schemes have been around for. When I was playing floppy disk games, many of them required a few words of the manual when they started up. One or two were unplayable without their manuals. Some wrote data back to the disk when you installed it. This is really not a new fight, just the weapons have been upgraded.
Turns out EA is a member of the EMA. Who else is involved? Probably other companies that want to kill the right of first sale and destroy the used-games/used-DVD market.
After all, your "activation" will probably only work once...
And what happens when the video card company or product of your choice doesn't support running whatever game you're trying to play? Then you're still stuck waiting on someone else to fix the program so you can run it. Your only options at that point are to change the hardware/software to something supported (adding more expense and/or removing functionality), or try to fix the software yourself (adding more time). I have limited time and money for recreation, so neither option works for me. That's why I'm squarely in the console camp for gaming.
You say that consoles are the ultimate in DRM, but I have to disagree here because as long as I'm using physical discs I can take any retail copy of a game disc and play it on any console player which was designed to accept that disc. There is no locking of each specific disc to a specific console unit. Sure the data generated from the game (online accounts, save file) may be tied to the console, but the disc itself can be used, traded, sold, whatever. Not being able to move a piece of software from one platform to another is not an issue of DRM, it's a matter of format. Yes, there may be only one player for a given format but that was the choice of the company that developed the format. Lack of options is not DRM in itself. If you don't like the console or controllers, don't play games that are in that format. Pick a different format or a different entertainment medium. By your wishful logic, I should have -- and industry should be mandated to support -- the ability to take a cassette tape, cram it into a CD player, and have it automagically play with CD quality just for the sake of convenience. Why should it be expected that you could take your games from one system and play it on another system three generations later? If I want to play my old SNES games, I pull the old console out of the closet and play them with no issues, rather than whining about having to buy them again in a format that works on the Wii.
From your previous arguments and rebuttals, I get the feeling that your REAL issue here is up a few posts in this thread where you started whining about the ability (or lack thereof) to "backup" your games. While I may have made many "backups" during my time in college, I've since come to realize that for consoles there truly is no need for this ability. All you need is some personal responsibility in being able to take care of and keep track of your game discs. Disc destroyed by children? It's your own fault for letting them get a hold of it. Stolen or destroyed in fire or flood? You should have had adequate home/rental insurance to cover it. Loaned to a friend who didn't return it? It was your choice to give it away in the first place. None of these situations require the creation of a "backup" for your game discs, as any replacement retail copy will still play in any console copy the same as the original.
Now, digital only software is a whole different story, and it does contain DRM to be concerned about. But that doesn't make the console itself a massive DRM scheme nor give justification for blatant piracy.
No, backups have nothing to do with my issue. I have none. I don't buy consoles, I buy PC's, and I run playstation 3/XBox360 via PC and reverse engineer my games as necessary (usually by finding existing software out there, I don't do it myself) to get them to run on it. I personally, have no qualms. Can't say the same for most people though.
I do appreciate the debate. Firstly, format is a form of consumer control. If you could only use X brand product for X purpose instead of X brand product any way you want, what does that sum up other than a lock-in? Lack of options is exactly what DRM truly stands for. It's not really "DRM" its more like "lack of choice/control". It's not longer DRM of a product but DRM of a consumer themselves. Format lock sounds like a small deal but it's the reason there can't be another company that makes better (possibly faster, different features, etc) versions of a console. It kills competition. Or do you not remember the SNES days prior when there were systems better than the OEM made because these locks didn't exist?
There are legitimate reasons other than accidental with which to make backups. Another is just flat out normal use. CDs, DVDs, etc do tend to wear over time from a multitude of reasons.
Face facts most everything the companies are doing now is not to stop pirates its not to stop shoplifting but its to cripple the second hand market because they think they should get a piece of the pie whenever a sale is made at any time from when the game is first launched to when the universe implodes on itself.
Its not to stop pirates
They have all the security features stripped out within the first day of launch.
Its not to stop shoplifting
Game companies don't care they have already gotten their money for the game from the stores, its the stores job to worry about copies walking off.
That only leaves making it harder to sell your legit copy or to purchase a used copy of a game, frankly I'll just wait until the game goes from 59.99 to 9.99 *points at black Friday bioshock, was really tempting but still passed on buying it*
Honestly while I'm not totally against this step because hey gift cards have been doing it since the dawn of time .... It does mean that when (and I do say 'WHEN' not IF) the companies decide to yank their support for the game your SOL and if you own a physical copy of the game please feel free to enjoy your new promotional coaster.
And don't say well that could never happen .... I site Microsoft shutting down their music validation servers leaving people who had purchased DRM MP3s on the Xbox holding a bunch of useless files. What did the customers get (as I recall) a hearty hand shake and a "thanks for your money"
Honestly I am at the point where because of DRM I have not purchased a game in quite some time. While I'm sure in EA's playbook that means I am a pirate because obviously their games are so GREAT that I can't not be playing them and if I'm not purchasing them I must be pirating them.... Sorry EA you can add in I have nor played your games in quite some time
I have even gone as far as to have passed on Deadspace Downfall because its linked to one of your games (thats how much I hate you) even tho it looks really really good, I decided to settle with another anime instead.
hey guys, look what DIVX brought us! chapter 11 to circuit city! where is that correlationisnotcausation tag when you need it...
for anyone that doesn't remember, circuit city had "activated" movies that you bought for your DIVX player. You'd pay like $6-8 for a movie, and activate it for 48 hours [from when you ACTIVATED it, or it had a movie watch limit, like 3 times total or 48 hours]. if you wanted it longer, you had to pay for it.
I sound like a total conspiracy theorist here, but do you think they're blaming lost sales not only on the economic crisis, but on piracy? if you build it [good games, movies, software], they will come. if you continue to make crap, people will either not buy it or pirate it. DRM only causes more of the latter. congratulations.
oh, and agreed. prices are way too steep. I actually didn't even mind paying $40 for a game. $60 for these "GOLD BOX ZOMG" editions is tiring. from free until $40 I can stand, per game.
I could start another rant on how games are too short these days too [Call of Duty 4, I'm looking at you], or instead of putting in more GAMEPLAY, they just make it take longer to get where you need to go. I remember the old graphical adventures with quirky puzzle solving that took hours because you were trying to solve puzzles, not kill level 1 demonoids for 6 hours so that you can level up so you could fight the level 80 boss.
I suggest instead that these individuals avail themselves of a ship of the line, or perhaps a man-o-war, with a crew of doughty british sailors instead. All this new fangled scientific mumbo-jumbo seems quite unlikely to dissuade these men of low moral fiber, but a peg-leg or two should do the trick, wot wot.
This is the first step of making game accounts tied to your name.
After this, it is quite easy to ask your ID or use your credit card number to make the game YOUR personal copy.
It all begins with harmless little change, that wasn't supposed to hurt anyone..
I can see the writing on the wall. At first, they will claim it is to fight piracy, then at some point it will be combined with Internet Activation to prevent resale.
We all know it's not theft, but resale that costs the game company Millions of Dollars.
RTFG - Read The F#$%ing Google!
Sorry, but I still don't buy your arguments at all.
Seeing as how you "buy PC's" (plural, at that) capable of emulating the PS3/XBox360, you appear to have more than enough money to buy the consoles if you so wanted. And seeing as how you are taking the time and effort to "reverse engineer" these games to run on your PCs you obviously have the desire to play the games. So why don't you just buy the consoles and the games and play them as they were designed? I can only think of two reasons... either 1) you're a PC Fanboy who is too stubborn to consider any other options, or 2) you're a thieving software pirate. I'm curious... of all the PS3/XBox360 games you've "reverse engineered" and "backed up for personal use," how many did you actually buy? How many do you still have the original discs for?
Now, to the question of formats... again, your arguments are misguided. You talk about it being vendor lock-in if you can't use X brand product any way you want... well, the products in question here and the subject of the DRM issue are not the consoles themselves, but the software. If you want to play the Grand Theft Auto 4 game, guess what, you DO have choices as a consumer. You can play on the PS3, Xbox, or (soon) your beloved PC. The choice of which format(s) to release a piece of software in is the decision of the developers and publishers, not the hardware companies. The developers and publishers will choose whatever format they feel will make them the most money. If the developers/publishers don't like the format options, they're welcome to make their own competing format and console(s). Even in the Personal Computer market there is variety of formats (Windows/Mac/Linux) which require significant effort to move software between and often require licensing costs to create programs for.
Game consoles would only be an example of "lock-in" if you could only use Sony software on your Sony console with your Sony controllers on your Sony TV. As much as Sony would like people to do this, it is not a requirement for using their platform. I can play games on my Sony console from any company that is willing to buy a license to the format, and I can play with any proprietary or standardized hardware that the software will support, even a keyboard and mouse for some software. If you want a good example of "locked-in" game consoles, try browsing through the childrens' toy section at your local mega-store, and you'll see lots of "laptop" and "game systems" that only run a handful of games published by the system maker. These systems are truly locked in, and due to their restrictive nature, they rarely flourish outside of a very niche audience.
As for the lack of hardware choice, there is nothing out there keeping other companies from licensing the console technology from Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo other than, well, the cost of the licensing and making the hardware. Remember the Panasonic Q from the last console generation? Sure, it was only sold in Japan, but that is one relatively recent example of where a company looked at the markets, the licensing costs, and the production costs, and decided that it was worth the cost and risk to license the technology and make their own better version of a popular console. The real reason for lack of hardware choice is that it's simply expensive to make the hardware to run the software.
Finally, what are these "legitimate" reasons you refer to for backing up console games? I can't think of any justifiable reason except to protect from accidental loss. If a game is truly so good that you "wear it out", then it is also worth supporting the developer of such an excellent game by purchasing a second copy after you have consumed the first. If your games are becoming damaged from "normal use" while the vast majority of other consumers are doing just fine, then it comes back to the issue of personal responsibility and learning how to take care of your stuff properly.
Yeah this is gonna be another way game producers will try to fix the piracy problems with their products and it will fail like always and will further raise the price of video games creating more pirates. GOOD JOB EA.
I buy only games that I warrant worth my money. I didn't say I reverse engineer them myself, I'm just good at find people /software that can do so for me :) The crafty people in the world are those who can find and recognize folks smarter than themselves :) If I want to try a game out, I'll usually try it at an EBGames or something first to see if I like it. How many do I still hold originals for? 4. How many did I buy? I lost track, but I can say that it's more than 4, obviously. However, would I download the game to try it or even if I liked it but not enough to warrant paying for it? Absolutely. I have no incentive not to.
Also, I hate consoles. Lived with it from oldschool atari through PS1, and my family got PS2s which I never bothered with myself. I really don't value something that I can't do what I want with as I see fit...tinkering with a PS3 or other device has both legal rammifications and is also a major pain in the ass (they do tend to cripple it quite a bit to prevent "piracy").
I don't know how I feel about your idea of lock-in. Since the costs are rather prohibitive I would say that yes, you are locked in. What you're referring to with single branded products that must be together isn't lock in, thats a monopoly.
Now as far as your argument against legitimate reasons, who says that the cost of a copy you purchase from (insert retailer name here) actually goes back to the developer? I'm sure you know where the money trail goes, and by the time you're buying it retail that money has already been allocated as well. Why would I buy a second copy of something just because it deteriorates? That's a waste of money. If I enjoy a game that much I shouldn't have to pay a "pirate tax" to get a double sided DVD/bluray disc to copy a game in its entirety. Additionally, why can't I back up a copy? Since when is such an illegitimate intent? I'm sure you remember the whole VHS vs Betamax debate.
The licensing thing, I suppose there are two sides to every coin. Everyone knows how RAND is not RAND to anyone other than the license holder regardless of if the licensee feels otherwise. However, I do agree that the cost difference of a huge established business vs new customer trying to break into the same field are a world of difference.
Perhaps the only thing I would feel like bringing up with your piracy argument is the study done recently by (I forgot the game company) where they found out that whether there was DRM or not the same amount of copies of a game was pirated, approximately. Not that "pirate" is even an appropriate or accurate term, you know. Nor is thievery, and you know it.
to simply torrent it.
So then... the answer is both 1 AND 2.
You've clearly fallen into the "I'll pay for it if I really really like it" line of piracy justification. The problem is, by pirating first and paying later you're still consuming (a game, once played, cannot be removed from your personal experience) without fairly compensating for the experience. Using this justification, it's then perfectly okay to leave a restaurant without paying for dinner because it wasn't as filling as you had hoped. Or it's okay to demand your money back from a theater because the movie you watched was lame and predictable. Or it's okay for me to "unilaterally borrow" one of your PC rigs from your house to "see if I like it" and use it as I please until it is obsolete and I don't want it any more. Hey, it's not stealing if I don't keep it forever, right?
And you still keep asking why shouldn't you be able to "back up" games without ever giving a single good reason why you SHOULD be able to. Digital media, when properly cared for, will last for years. Preventing "normal wear and tear" is a piss-poor excuse for blatantly stealing as you see fit.
If you can come up with a good answer to the backup question, feel free to post a reply. But seeing as I've already wasted way too much time on nothing more than an unrepentant thieving fanboy severely lacking in personal responsibility, I'm not going to bother with any further debate on the issue.
So you don't understand that at best I am performing copyright infringement and there is no such thing as physical theft of an intangible object? Have you ever heard of "intangible theft" in court? No, and you never will in this lifetime or the next. Go ahead, keep labeling it piracy. I know how ignorant you are with that.
Go back to working for a media company, as it's clear you do. Calling someone a thieving fanboy shows you don't know anything about where technology is or is headed.
Your comment isn't directed to me, but I want to answer it anyway:
When I buy food at a restaurant, eat some of it, and am sufficiently unsatisfied by it to leave without paying, tangible food has been transferred from the kitchen to my stomach. Therefore, I've gained food, while they've lost both food and the time taken to prepare/serve it.
When I pirate a game, and am unsatisfied by it, the experience of this process is not a tangible thing which is somehow transferred from the publisher to me. I simply gain the experience, and they simply lose nothing.
Please fix your analogy. Thanks!
(Oh, yes: And I back things up to protect them from my children and, moreso, friends of my children. I'd also make backups of their bicycles, and their toys, and even of the children themselves were there an easy, inexpensive, and bit-perfect way of doing so.)
Kid-proof tablet..
Sure they do. Elder Scrolls Oblivion's expansion pack does (I bought it on a DVD, and had to install it prior to use), and I'm sure there are others.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
>deltree
There's no DELTREE in Windows anymore - hasn't been since Windows NT and any later versions of Windows based on it.
RD /S works, however (I use it with /Q to suppress prompting), and accomplishes the same thing.
I'm sure he knows that: It's been beaten to death here. What I find interesting is that whenever someone here makes that statement to correct another's misuse of the term "theft" (or "stealing", etc.), they never mention that copyright infringement is also illegal (and in the opinion of some, wrong as well). The implication of the omission, of course, is that since copyright infringement isn't theft, it's somehow OK.
If someone can't afford a good connection, or can't afford to live somewhere that a good connection is available, then where are they going to download their mods anyhow?
The same way they bought the original game, and the same way dial-up users get Ubuntu. They can buy the CD of the mod from the developers. Or they can buy the CD of a completely original game from its developers.
Trust me. It DOES make developers lazy. Square Enix was first off the mark with The Last ... -LOADING- ... Remnant.
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Really should drop the argument now, but you bring up a good point that need to be addressed. It seems we've boiled the entire debate of DRM down to the more basic question of "What is theft, and is it wrong?" Many slashdotters, including yourself and poetmatt assert that if you take (in this case, illegitimately duplicate) something which is "intangible" and "easily reproduced" it is not theft, as there is no physical loss, and no apparent harm done. So I assume then that you won't complain when such "intangibles" as peace, freedom, privacy, love, and/or life have been taken from you? After all, these "intangibles" are not physical, and can be reproduced between people at no monetary cost.
Humans have long understood that something need not be physical to have value. Experience has immense value. Experience is why other people get paid more than you do for doing the same job. And while the law may define theft in it's most strict sense as the taking of another person's property without consent, the law also defines the theft of service as taking a service of value without consent or compensation. You claim that "I simply gain the experience, and they lose nothing" yet you conveniently ignore that something of value has indeed been lost -- a fair compensation for the service of providing a unique experience that you could not obtain otherwise. Now, is the compensation requested for the experience of games, music and other media fair? Sometimes it is not. But just because you don't agree with the asking price does not justify taking the product or service, just because you want it now and want it on your terms.
In this case, the restaurant analogy is still valid as we're talking about consumable goods provided as a service. Walking out of a restaurant is only justified if the circumstances of the meal are such that what was provided is unfit for consumption or not provided as advertised, and after you leave the restaurant it has the option to refuse you service in the future. If a game is unplayable due to bugs or errors, then you are justified in demanding your money back or a fixed product and the developer/publisher has the option of attempting to refuse service to those with no intention of paying for it. However, with both the food and the software, disappointment due to overinflated expectations is not sufficient grounds for reasonable rejection. Compounding this issue is the matter of intent. When you sat down in the restaurant, were you intending to pay when done? Probably so. When you downloaded that cracked version of whatever game, were you really intending to buy it afterward? Be honest now (assuming you have the capability of being honest). If your true intent was to "try out" the game to see if it was worth purchasing, there are many legal avenues such as demos, reviews, rentals, and friends that you could have used instead. Really, the only difference here between intentionally leaving a restaurant without paying, and "trying a game" and not paying for it afterward is that there is little to no risk of getting caught for pirating the software, which is why you think piracy is okay.
Finally... I'm still looking for an answer to my question. poetmatt never was able to answer it, so maybe you can. Tell me, is there ANY valid reason for "backing up" console games other than as an excuse for your inability to take care of your personal property? I'm sorry that you've failed to raise your children with a respect for people's property, but that still doesn't justify copying console games.
(And for the record, no I don't work for any game or media company. I'm just another engineer, but one that's finally gotten fed up with the general lack of morality around here.)
Dude pirated games use cracks AND keys. Since the game asks for a product key during installation, they would need a key also.
The biggest problem with remote activation DRM is that your ability to play the game is dependent upon the support staff and servers maintained by the publisher. If this technology simply removes some kind of physical impedance at point of purchase, then that's fine. If playing the software thereafter depends on contacting a server to see if the game was actually purchased in a store, then that's inexcusable.
Remember: You wouldn't be able to install and play System Shock today if it required activation DRM.
And the day after, the pirates will have activation patches distributed along with the disc images. Buhhhhh? Burt, how could a brilliant idea be defeated so easily? I guess it was actually a dumb idea...
Tell me, sir: How does a moron a dense as you grow a title as lofty as "engineer?"
Cuz, I mean, your analogies are just as fucked as the last time they were shown to be wrong. For that matter, the components of them aren't even analogs of eachother! I make a copy of your software and you lose exactly nothing. You take my peace, and I don't fucking have it anymore.
Can you spot the difference?
Now, then, if you want to COPY my sense of peace, you're more than welcome to if you can figure out how to do it. And if you somehow manage to do it, I've lost nothing -- I'll still have my peace. Just because you've made a copy of my peace doesn't mean that the original was destroyed -- I'll be just as peaceful as ever, no matter how many generational copies of my peacefulness exist in the world.
It's so groovy, man. Can you dig it? Peace and love for everyone!
Copying and stealing are two different things. When I copy DVDs so my kids can't destroy my entire Disney collection in a single act, Disney loses nothing. I've taken nothing from anyone -- it's not as if I went into their fucking factory with jackboots and a shotgun and demanded replacement DVDs. All I did was copy something intangible.
Please think. This involves logic. You're supposed to be good at this.
(Oh. And, no, there's no valid reason to copy console games except to cover up sloppiness and accidents. And that, sir, is a good enough reason for me. There is still no harm, and it's still my property. I'll do with it as I please. If that means that I duplicate a title 800 times, and then cut up the original along with 799 of the remaining copies, then so be it. There is no harm, and it's my stuff in my house. Remember that it's your job for you to look after your own stuff. But it's not your job to look after my stuff -- that's my problem. Got that, chief? You can be as efficient and neat as you like, and I get to be as inefficient and wasteful as I like. It's not like we're fucking married.)
Kid-proof tablet..
Thanks. I thought for a moment your argument might actually have the slightest quantity of worth to it. Now you've confirmed you're a pirating little cunt I'll go back to more worthwhile discussions. Good day to you.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
You'd better not step on my pumas, or I'll get the Juggernaught to kill everyone you have ever loved and destroy every piece of property you have even a tangental right to.
It's been a long time.
Hell, you can't even choose your input device for games on a console. You are stuck with whatever they configure the game for! Try using a keyboard for GTA, or for old nintendo games on the wii.
OK, not only are you wrong about consoles not being able to use different controllers, but your argument against console controllers seems to be that GTA or old Nintendo games play better on a keyboard? Do you huff a lot of paint thinner or something? Console game developers actually design around the controller, and play control is far superior to a keyboard/mouse combo (except for FPS and RTS).
Hell, even cars are less locked down than consoles.
I was waiting for a horribly obtuse car analogy, but this one just kinda sputtered out. Did you run out of brain cells? Actually, it sounds like you didn't have many to begin with.
That's how locked down it is. They don't need starforce, in purchasing one you signed up for a physical ball and chain DRM that is stronger and worse than starforce.
Worse than Starforce? When my PS3 gets screwed up by a firmware update (which it doesn't because I'm smart enough to wait before updating), I don't lose access to my financial data, my kid's photos, or my MP3s. Stuff like Starforce, combined with alpha quality game programming, alpha quality OSs, and alpha quality video drivers make PC gaming a ticking time bomb, especially on Windows. And it's only getting worse. Which is why you should either get a dedicated gaming rig or a console...and for me, a console is an easy choice.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)