Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Knew About Xbox 360 Damaging Discs
Kelly writes "An unsealed document in a Washington lawsuit filed last week at Seattle, Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox 360 was prone to damaging game discs even before the console was introduced in November 2005. Microsoft had three solutions for solving the issue, but all three solutions were rejected due to technical concerns or on the basis of cost. Microsoft settled on a cost-free fourth solution: a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware." The scratching-disks problem was mentioned a few years back, too. I wonder whether more people would prefer a slight discount on the price of a console to the ability to reorient it while a disk was playing inside.
The motion says that Microsoft knew that when the Xbox 360 was reoriented with a disc playing inside, the disc could be damaged.
I gotta side with Microsoft on this one.
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware."
No. Vista's UAC is shifting blame on the user. The warning in the manual is merely a well-intentioned courtesy reminder which calls into question the perceived intelligence and common sense of its users. They might as well have included a warning like, "Do not drop into bathtub".
If you don't like the way your 360 sits then put down the pizza slice, wipe the snauce off of your fingers, properly shut down the console, carefully reorient it as desired, then power it back on and resume gaming. I know it takes a few more seconds than just toppling it over with one hand while Gearing-of-War wtih the other, but the extra effort will be worth it. Trust me on this one.
I have a little light on my dashboard that is labeled "Check Engine". Ostensibly it is supposed to turn on when an excess of O2 is detected in the car's emissions. However, it also seems to turn on just about every 20K miles or so. It costs $400 to turn off.
Is this "feature" by design? Or is it a bug?
Fixed that for /.
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
Generally I'm not a fan of slot-loading CD drives, but I think Nintendo got it right in this case. The slot-loader is gentle on the disc, works in multiple orientations, and is easy for even kids to use without damaging the system. IMHO, the 360 would have done well to also design around a slot-loader, especially given their desire to place the system in a vertical configuration. The Wii is a very inexpensive system, so I don't see such a solution adding much cost.
(Then again, what do I know? Microsoft did try to cut corners wherever possible to create the system as cheap as possible.)
Of course, Sony managed to get a tray system working without scratching disks. And the system can be placed in a vertical configuration. (Does anyone actually do that?) I can only guess that Sony's solution was one of the "more expensive" ideas that Microsoft rejected.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Step 1: Sell discs.
Step 2: Pay lawmakers to make it illegal to copy discs.
Step 3: Make a machine that damages discs, forcing users to buy replacement discs.
Step 4: Profit!
Fricking seedy. If I'm buying the media, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with it. If I'm buying the data, they should replace the media for free. They can't have it both ways.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Why didn't they just use a laptop disc tray that has the thing in the middle that keeps the disc in place?
TFA says discs can get damaged when moving the console around/reorienting it (point it eastwards?!?) while there's a disc inside. Now, I tend to take the discs out before I move my equipment around, so I may be wrong. But isn't this usually a concern with ANY device with an optical drive? Or is it far worse with the 360 thanks to their superior engineering?
This guy's the limit!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Clearly it's not just users than move consoles, I have had 3 discs scratched by my 360, and it was never moved (it's kept vertical). There are many faults with the 360, and Microsoft do what they can to lie and/or distract consumers.. Lately the trend seems to be dissing whatever the competition is doing, rather than spending efforts on their own problems....
Apparently a $0.50 component would have sorted out all these problems... I'm aware that after a lot of sales this translates into profit, but seriously... this is a very short-sighted corner to cut.
I have problems with my 360 damaging discs just through normal use. I never shift the console in general, let along while a disc is in it. It seems more like the unit is unable to hold the disc completely stable while reading it at times, so you end up with damage.
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
But laptops are also designed to suspend when you close a lid - and I hate to break it to you but there are plenty of times I have shifted a laptop around substantially while burning a disc. Usually that worked out just fine.
Furthermore, laptop users hardly ever even use discs - either you use it once to load software, or you are burning a disc where the cost of failure is that you have to burn another $0.10 disc. Not quite the same as having a console where failure means you are out $60... and you almost always have a disc in the drive even if you are often doing things on Live instead of playing the game disc you have inserted.
The 360 is, like it or not, a consumer electronic device - and that means it needs to be robust, to where almost no use of it outside the extremes can cause failure. Simply moving a console while it's on is not that extreme, nor if you look at a lot of people's gaming setups is it even that uncommon. Blaming users for thinking it's a device like others they are used to instead of a delicate piece of computer equipment that will brook no touching while in operation, is an absurd accusation.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Consoles are handled by kids and non-technical minded people. If you use it as a DVD player, then paying extra for MS's disc replacement program won't help you too much when your DVDs get scratched. MS should have included the extra precautions to keep the discs safe.
Does anyone know if any of these problems were responsible in any way for drive failures that caused the "disc read error" message?
Twinstiq, game news
The thing is, the act of tilting your game console while it is playing is a bad idea regardless of manufacturer. I don't think that this unsealed document is the smoking gun people are looking for.
I thought that this disc-scratching lawsuit was about games getting scratched even through normal, everyday use. I remember my 360 put so many scratches in my copy of Crackdown that it rendered it unusable. And I never tilted (or accidentally bumped) the system while it was turned on. Occasionally I'd be playing a game and you'd hear a grinding sound.
Not true, as others have pointed out. I rearranged the equipment on my media rack a few months ago, and while the 360 was turned off moved it to a vertical arrangement. Over the next few days, my Civilization Revolution disc started to have read errors; after I pulled it out to clean it off, I noticed a nice, wide ring scratched into the disc from the DVD drive. Moving the console back to horizontal has stopped the scratching, but it won't bring my dead disc back. I followed the rules and still was awarded with a $60 game that was unplayable.
Let me start off by saying I own a 360 and have scracted a disk doing exactly what you are warned not to do. If the copyright police weren't such bastards I probably would have had a playable backup so it wouldn't have been a big deal, but thanks to all the DRM it wasted one of my games. That was shortly before christmas, and that year no 360 games were purchased in my household due to the state of anger I was holding towards Microsoft.
The point to this post however is ...
In all the years of running Windows and dealing with the stupid little bugs that bring the system to its knees due to cutting corners in the development process, are we not stupid ourselves for being suprised by these facts now that they've come out? I'm upset with myself for thinking for even a second that the 360 would be any different than Windows. I guess the MS mice I have used made me think maybe their hardware was different. Obviously I was wrong.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Now to add to this, I have yet another reason not to ever buy one. And I'll print out a copy of the page and attach it to the wall in my son's room. He's not going to like it but thats the breaks.
You can find any number of reasons to justify or not justify a purchase of an Xbox 360. If you can't afford it, then sure, those are the breaks. That's one thing all kids have to come to terms with. But it sounds like you're trying to clutch for something else to give as a reason, because you simply don't want this hardware product in your house.
Unfortunately the PC games market is in a major decline, the wii is a gimmick, and the PS3 is a stark disappointment. If your son is going to play modern console games, and interact socially with his peers on that level, not to mention play online with them, he's going to want this console - and it won't be about the hardware, it will be about the titles.
Due to their incredible screwups, MS offer a reasonable out of the box warranty with 360s. The hardware is not a concern. If you son treats it like crap, that's his bag. If you can't afford it, man up and say so. If you simply don't want to buy him one, let him know that. Maybe he'll think you're being an ass. I'm not sure you're not, seems like a valid opinion to me. Honesty will bear you out, though.
Funny, I just had this happen last night. The wife accidentally knocked it over when pulling out the drum kit as we were in the process of changing instruments for Rock Band 2. This caused it to start clicking like crazy. I tried to turn it off as soon as possible but it was too late! There goes my turn to dish out some serious Beastie Boys.
The documents only state the MS knew that moving or re-orienting an Xbox 360 while it was operating may scratch the disc. As for claims that the Xbox scratches discs while stable and vertical (while it may be true) does not apply to these specific documents.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It's the American Way
You write that, but you know that neither this nor the OP is true. You see consoles selling in quantums of 199, 249, and 299. Any variation is set largely on customer perception. There is no slight increase in price to, say, 302. Console price has little to do with minor variations in parts costs.
If you really want to correct the OP, then talk about the profit margin. In that case, the customer doesn't care.
I can't believe that I'm seeing people here blame end users for this problem.
Consumers are now acting more like battered wives than ever before. Blame yourself - you are the problem...it can't possibly be the manufacturer's fault.
My car has a DVD player that CONSTANTLY moves around while it is playing - rough roads, fast corners, hard braking - the works.....and guess what - it has never scratched a disc - EVER.
Why can't one of the richest technology companies in the world figure out what cut-rate Chinese electronics manufacturers figured out years ago?
-ted
I borrowed a friend's xbox360 when they first came out and rented Project Gotham Racing. While playing the controller caused the console to move a bit (maybe 1/2 inch) and we heard a nasty noise and the game crashed. Upon removing the disc, we found it to be scratched beyond usefulness.
Since then I have dropped my ps2 from the case it sits in with no ill effects to the disk within. I have purchased a ps3 as well and have had no such problems with it. Needless to say, I did not purchase an xbox360 because of this, although i did have to buy the Project Gotham Game due to damage.
Combine this with the fact that EVERY one of my friends 360s die about once a year, how could MS be making money on this thing?
The first through fourth gen PS2 had the same problem. I would get radial scratches on the disc, one of which (GTA:VC) never even left the console until I was through playing it.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
If manufacturers are going to treat customers as beta testers, and hide from them when the product fails, there are only two recourses, and I recommend both: stop buying the company's product, and file a class-action lawsuit.
Even if it is fashionable to claim it, Capitalism does not mean "cheat the people".
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
Why do they call it xbox 360
cuz when your discs are all scratched up you turn 360 degrees and walk away
That's such an insightful statement. Just to test though - find a cliff, turn 360 degrees and then walk away from it...
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
All 6 of us....muahahahahaha.
you're assuming everyone who has had scratched discs did something to cause it and that's not the case.
I made no assumptions. I quoted the article exactly.
I've seen people complaining about problems with scratched discs while not moving the system
Perhaps, but that is not what this article is about, nor is it what the law suit claims.