Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Knew About Xbox 360 Damaging Discs
Kelly writes "An unsealed document in a Washington lawsuit filed last week at Seattle, Microsoft was well aware that the Xbox 360 was prone to damaging game discs even before the console was introduced in November 2005. Microsoft had three solutions for solving the issue, but all three solutions were rejected due to technical concerns or on the basis of cost. Microsoft settled on a cost-free fourth solution: a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware." The scratching-disks problem was mentioned a few years back, too. I wonder whether more people would prefer a slight discount on the price of a console to the ability to reorient it while a disk was playing inside.
The motion says that Microsoft knew that when the Xbox 360 was reoriented with a disc playing inside, the disc could be damaged.
I gotta side with Microsoft on this one.
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual, which essentially placed the blame on users instead of the hardware."
No. Vista's UAC is shifting blame on the user. The warning in the manual is merely a well-intentioned courtesy reminder which calls into question the perceived intelligence and common sense of its users. They might as well have included a warning like, "Do not drop into bathtub".
If you don't like the way your 360 sits then put down the pizza slice, wipe the snauce off of your fingers, properly shut down the console, carefully reorient it as desired, then power it back on and resume gaming. I know it takes a few more seconds than just toppling it over with one hand while Gearing-of-War wtih the other, but the extra effort will be worth it. Trust me on this one.
I have a little light on my dashboard that is labeled "Check Engine". Ostensibly it is supposed to turn on when an excess of O2 is detected in the car's emissions. However, it also seems to turn on just about every 20K miles or so. It costs $400 to turn off.
Is this "feature" by design? Or is it a bug?
Those MS fans with modpoints will be busy today. What with the recent news about websites actively infecting PCs through known IE vulnerabilities and now this, there will be so many postings that show MS in a bad light to mod down.
Get going boys!
Fixed that for /.
Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
Generally I'm not a fan of slot-loading CD drives, but I think Nintendo got it right in this case. The slot-loader is gentle on the disc, works in multiple orientations, and is easy for even kids to use without damaging the system. IMHO, the 360 would have done well to also design around a slot-loader, especially given their desire to place the system in a vertical configuration. The Wii is a very inexpensive system, so I don't see such a solution adding much cost.
(Then again, what do I know? Microsoft did try to cut corners wherever possible to create the system as cheap as possible.)
Of course, Sony managed to get a tray system working without scratching disks. And the system can be placed in a vertical configuration. (Does anyone actually do that?) I can only guess that Sony's solution was one of the "more expensive" ideas that Microsoft rejected.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Step 1: Sell discs.
Step 2: Pay lawmakers to make it illegal to copy discs.
Step 3: Make a machine that damages discs, forcing users to buy replacement discs.
Step 4: Profit!
Fricking seedy. If I'm buying the media, I should be able to do whatever the hell I want with it. If I'm buying the data, they should replace the media for free. They can't have it both ways.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Why didn't they just use a laptop disc tray that has the thing in the middle that keeps the disc in place?
TFA says discs can get damaged when moving the console around/reorienting it (point it eastwards?!?) while there's a disc inside. Now, I tend to take the discs out before I move my equipment around, so I may be wrong. But isn't this usually a concern with ANY device with an optical drive? Or is it far worse with the 360 thanks to their superior engineering?
This guy's the limit!
How is this news? This has been a "problem" with all optical disc formats ever. Laptop drives, caddy-loading drives, and slot-loading drives are the only type where this cannot happen. I don't shake my Xbox when I use it, and I don't try to operate my Laserdisc player upside-down either.
inb4 Micro$oft is teh ebil empire!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Clearly it's not just users than move consoles, I have had 3 discs scratched by my 360, and it was never moved (it's kept vertical). There are many faults with the 360, and Microsoft do what they can to lie and/or distract consumers.. Lately the trend seems to be dissing whatever the competition is doing, rather than spending efforts on their own problems....
This is exactly the kind of thing that the "One Legal copy" exemption of the copyright laws was included to prevent. I am not up on latest xbox game copying techniques, but I am sure it is not easy for the average user... if possible at all.
Apparently a $0.50 component would have sorted out all these problems... I'm aware that after a lot of sales this translates into profit, but seriously... this is a very short-sighted corner to cut.
I have problems with my 360 damaging discs just through normal use. I never shift the console in general, let along while a disc is in it. It seems more like the unit is unable to hold the disc completely stable while reading it at times, so you end up with damage.
I will shred my adversaries. Pull their eyes out just enough to turn them towards their mewing, mutilated faces. Illyria
There's lots of asshat things Microsoft has done, but this isn't one of them.
The motion says that Microsoft knew that when the Xbox 360 was reoriented with a disc playing inside, the disc could be damaged.
DUH! Don't do that! I wouldn't do that on my desktop PC, or my Playstation, or my laptop. And how often does that happen anyway? Why are people regularly rotating their XBoxes? I might do that, like, once when I set it up. And maybe when I transport it. Never while it is running!
A warning was also included in the product manual, telling customers to "remove discs before moving the console or tilting it between the horizontal and vertical positions."
This is a completely reasonable expectation. This is a case where a warning is appropriate.
Eventually, Microsoft did institute an Xbox 360 disc replacement program that sends out new discs to customers if their discs are damaged for any reason. The program only applies to Microsoft titles and costs $20 per disc.
Wow, AND they offered to replace discs. Obviously, they can only replace their own discs.
Holy crap -- Microsoft did everything absolutely right here and STILL got sued.
An xbox 360 is not something you pop a battery and headphones into and take jogging. If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer? Sony, Dell, Philips, NEC, you're next! Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
But laptops are also designed to suspend when you close a lid - and I hate to break it to you but there are plenty of times I have shifted a laptop around substantially while burning a disc. Usually that worked out just fine.
Furthermore, laptop users hardly ever even use discs - either you use it once to load software, or you are burning a disc where the cost of failure is that you have to burn another $0.10 disc. Not quite the same as having a console where failure means you are out $60... and you almost always have a disc in the drive even if you are often doing things on Live instead of playing the game disc you have inserted.
The 360 is, like it or not, a consumer electronic device - and that means it needs to be robust, to where almost no use of it outside the extremes can cause failure. Simply moving a console while it's on is not that extreme, nor if you look at a lot of people's gaming setups is it even that uncommon. Blaming users for thinking it's a device like others they are used to instead of a delicate piece of computer equipment that will brook no touching while in operation, is an absurd accusation.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm not sure why you want to read this comment, but it makes me feel much better having told you all :-(
Heres a pretty brain dead solution, don't move your console while its running with a disc in the tray.
The bigger issue for me is the god awful support they offer if anything goes wrong with your console. I did not get the red ring of death so there was no way they were going to help me, essentially. They claimed that my console (registered the night I bought it) was sold 3 months before I bought it. It quit reading discs but they would not agree that my warranty was still good 10 months after I bought it. Thankfully Office Depot replaced the thing after 10 months since they never sold the only other one they got in stock.
1. Include a Halo HD-DVD anime with every 360
2. Actually make a profit for selling a 360
3. Give that kid some chocolate milk
4. ???????
5. Profit
Consoles are handled by kids and non-technical minded people. If you use it as a DVD player, then paying extra for MS's disc replacement program won't help you too much when your DVDs get scratched. MS should have included the extra precautions to keep the discs safe.
Does anyone know if any of these problems were responsible in any way for drive failures that caused the "disc read error" message?
Twinstiq, game news
The SCPH-1001 original PSX model usually wouldn't play games UNLESS it was vertical. Of course... I wouldn't reorient it WHILE playing. Also strangely, while I attributed the "Needing to turn it on its side" to something with the laser assembly wearing out, it turned out that my "early" playstation games still played consistently with the system oriented horizontally. I think FF8 was the first I had that required the system to be vertical, and that confuses the hell out of me. If I went back and hooked my PSX up right now, I bet Return Fire would play fine horizontally but Gran Turismo 2 would refuse to play in any orientation but vertically. (Old game vs newer).
The thing is, the act of tilting your game console while it is playing is a bad idea regardless of manufacturer. I don't think that this unsealed document is the smoking gun people are looking for.
I thought that this disc-scratching lawsuit was about games getting scratched even through normal, everyday use. I remember my 360 put so many scratches in my copy of Crackdown that it rendered it unusable. And I never tilted (or accidentally bumped) the system while it was turned on. Occasionally I'd be playing a game and you'd hear a grinding sound.
I still remember that KB article in which it was stated that the Xbox doesn't damage discs. Imagine the kind of conversations I had when I told the guy on the other end that he must have moved the console while it read the disc. So yeah, basically I had to tell them that they were wrong, even though, of course, they weren't. Those kind of calls usually got escalated to a Tier 2 agent (what you guys call "a supervisor").
I mostly agree with you. However, this article was calling to light that Microsoft had actually tested for this very thing and came up with multiple workarounds because it saw it as a problem. Many users of the 360 aren't technical and wouldn't see a problem with tilting their console. After all, they can tilt their discman, and the console is supposed to be able to operate in both positions.
Let me start off by saying I own a 360 and have scracted a disk doing exactly what you are warned not to do. If the copyright police weren't such bastards I probably would have had a playable backup so it wouldn't have been a big deal, but thanks to all the DRM it wasted one of my games. That was shortly before christmas, and that year no 360 games were purchased in my household due to the state of anger I was holding towards Microsoft.
The point to this post however is ...
In all the years of running Windows and dealing with the stupid little bugs that bring the system to its knees due to cutting corners in the development process, are we not stupid ourselves for being suprised by these facts now that they've come out? I'm upset with myself for thinking for even a second that the 360 would be any different than Windows. I guess the MS mice I have used made me think maybe their hardware was different. Obviously I was wrong.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Now to add to this, I have yet another reason not to ever buy one. And I'll print out a copy of the page and attach it to the wall in my son's room. He's not going to like it but thats the breaks.
You can find any number of reasons to justify or not justify a purchase of an Xbox 360. If you can't afford it, then sure, those are the breaks. That's one thing all kids have to come to terms with. But it sounds like you're trying to clutch for something else to give as a reason, because you simply don't want this hardware product in your house.
Unfortunately the PC games market is in a major decline, the wii is a gimmick, and the PS3 is a stark disappointment. If your son is going to play modern console games, and interact socially with his peers on that level, not to mention play online with them, he's going to want this console - and it won't be about the hardware, it will be about the titles.
Due to their incredible screwups, MS offer a reasonable out of the box warranty with 360s. The hardware is not a concern. If you son treats it like crap, that's his bag. If you can't afford it, man up and say so. If you simply don't want to buy him one, let him know that. Maybe he'll think you're being an ass. I'm not sure you're not, seems like a valid opinion to me. Honesty will bear you out, though.
Funny, I just had this happen last night. The wife accidentally knocked it over when pulling out the drum kit as we were in the process of changing instruments for Rock Band 2. This caused it to start clicking like crazy. I tried to turn it off as soon as possible but it was too late! There goes my turn to dish out some serious Beastie Boys.
Ha... I never had to turn a 1001 vertical, but I did have to turn it upside-down. Otherwise the system would just sit there at the Playstation logo, or go to the system menu instead of go into the game. Haven't since needed to do that with any disk-based consoles, not even later revisions of the PSX. It was the damnedest thing.
Not so. I frequently move my PS3, DVD player, Computers (with DVD+-RW drives) and other disc-based players around with discs inside them. A similar thing only happened once with a defective DVDRW drive for my computer, which was quickly and promptly replaced at no cost to me (other than waiting on shipping). This is a microsoft problem not only because most disc-based players do NOT have this problem, but also because they knew about the problem!
>>>Microsoft settled on a cost-free fourth solution: a warning was added to Xbox 360 manual,
The managers once responsible for the Ford Pinto, and the decision that it was cheaper to "pay off" families for deaths than to fix the flammable gasoline tanks, are now working for Microsoft.
FOX NEWS.com should be BANNED from television and internet. Have the Congress take it over and give us Truespeak.
The documents only state the MS knew that moving or re-orienting an Xbox 360 while it was operating may scratch the disc. As for claims that the Xbox scratches discs while stable and vertical (while it may be true) does not apply to these specific documents.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Maybe not turn it intentionally, but a console in vertical position that is unstable as the 360 is in that position needs a little more padding on the inside.
At one point, my SCPH-1001 got so bad it had to be played upside down. However, it worked upside down for years..
your fault for not buying the $199.00 tool to turn it off yourself.
you choose to pay $400 every 3 months to feed your apathy.
Actually a cheap OBD 2 scan tool that can read and clear codes (turn off the check engine light) costs about $39.
The check engine light can illuminate for any one of hundreds of reasons, from a loose gas cap, to a faulty EGR valve, to a slipping torque converter clutch.
If your check engine light comes on often, you either have a lemon or a mechanic who is fleecing you while not actually properly diagnosing and fixing the problem. Or, you abuse your car or fail to maintain it properly.
Unless, you're talking about a maintenance reminder, which is supposed to be reset by the mechanic when they do a routine service, like an oil change or Mercedes-Benz's A or B services. Those reminders can usually be reset by the user at no cost, by some combination of turning the ignition on and off and pressing the accelerator pedal, like a cheat code in a video game.
Putting moderation advice in your
I think DVD drive defects and failures are going to be the new RRoD for the 360. Everyone I know has had to replace their systems at least once due to RRoD issues (I'm on my third). However, now I hear alot of problems with the DVD drive (clicking, scratching, unable to read discs, complete failure).
Unfortunately, Microsoft will explicitly tell you that it's not covered under your warranty, and you have to pay for the repairs. The most irritating thing is my current refurb had a defective DVD drive right out of the box. Several games bomb out with disc read errors (with alot of clicking involved). It seems like any game that's disc intensive is unplayable. The 4th disc of Lost Odyssey wouldn't even load up in my system.
Luckily for me, I can rip the discs using the NXE feature and the game works fine. For now.
is clearly to go back to using cartridges! Seriously, with the advances in solid-state storage why aren't console manufacturers looking at the original alternative? I can imagine the initial cost would be higher than burning DVD after DVD but in return you'd get (relatively) damage-proof games as well as greatly reduced loading times in-game.
Someone explain to me why ANYONE would need to turn their console either vertical or horizontal while playing a video game?
Maybe some of the 360 owners are having Wii-Envy?
Trolling is a art,
Because they want to show off how "cool" it is when the green bits on the ring that correspond to the attached controllers re-orient themselves when the alignment changes.
Duh.
You write that, but you know that neither this nor the OP is true. You see consoles selling in quantums of 199, 249, and 299. Any variation is set largely on customer perception. There is no slight increase in price to, say, 302. Console price has little to do with minor variations in parts costs.
If you really want to correct the OP, then talk about the profit margin. In that case, the customer doesn't care.
I'm pretty sure I scratched "Call of Duty 4" when I tipped the console up to check the connections on the back. The audio/video wasn't coming up on the TV, and you can't really "debug" that with the console turned off.
Had I known about this problem, I suppose I would have removed the disc and done the check on the xbox dashboard.
blog
If Microsoft can be sued over this, who's to say that they couldn't go after every other stationary tray-loading spinning-disc-player manufacturer?
Ever hear of an implied warranty? Are you seriously arguing we shouldn't sue companies that knowingly sell a defective product without warning? Sorry, I don't buy your argument. If all those companies knowingly sell a product with a defect and take measures to conceal that defect to the detriment of consumers then they deserve to be sued.
Besides, children are frequent users of Xboxen. Anything sold to children should pretty much assume that it will get beat up and abused and moved while in use. If the Xbox can't be moved while in operation, that is pretty much a defect in design in my opinion.
Even laptop(remember, laptops are designed to be portable) owners wouldn't tilt theirs 90 degrees sideways while spinning a disc.
Sure I would. Why wouldn't I? Absent an explicit and prominent warning against the such tilting it is reasonable to assume the manufacturer considered and guarded against such user behavior. I expect my equipment to be hardened against reasonably foreseeable usage. If tilting the machine would cause problems that can be engineered around I expect explicit and prominent warnings detailing the problem. I've NEVER seen a laptop instruct me not to tilt it while a disc was spinning and I have in fact done so many times without incident.
When I had a small business, we were contracted to produce study guides in MS Word for Mac 5.1a. The time came when professors were demanding files in Word 95, and our customers (a major publisher) were having trouble with file corruption. They asked us to handle it.
So we purchased the Word 95, and a full support contract, and verified that indeed, the files were being corrupted.
At that point, I got on the phone with my paid M$ support service, and they informed me that no, the files weren't being corrupted. I offered to send them copies of the files, so that they could do it themselves, and autopsy the change, and find the fix. They said no, they were not interested, thankyou for paying for support, but support does not include THIS kind of support.
Well, this problem continued through Word 98. It ended up costing us more than $11k, plus another $17k in contracts not awarded.
Then it came out that M$ had known all along that their files were being corrupted, and that it was Word95 that was doing it, and that they instructed their support people to deny that it was happening.
In so doing, they broke contract with the users. In that case, it was an explicit contract. In this case, it is an implied contract of usability, but even a warning notice does not eliminate liability for deliberate malfeasance.
In other words, if you buy a car with a leaking master brake cylinder that is ready to blow, and verify it, and then rent it for a day to someone who is unaware of the brakes, and say "well, sign this that if there is anything wrong with the engine, the windshield wipers, the brakes, or anything else, it is your problem..." you are still liable. You set them up and damaged them.
So I say that yes, M$ should be sued. Indeed, a smart lawyer would widen this to a class action lawsuit, and bring in the other case of Win95 file corruption (if it isn't now sunsetted) as a part of the same pattern of a corrupt organization. Then he'd go for a RICO case. He might get it.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
And I really do want to, just to see my Toshiba S60 play music on my TV.
Or something like that. I forget...
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
It doesn't sound to me like you have a 360. It will scratch disks even if you don't "reorient" it. All you need to do is move it gently while it's playing, keeping it in the orientation it has. In fact, it would never have occurred to me to reorient it while playing.
My son and I scratched the first two disks we used before we realized how sensitive it is. In one case the machine was vertical, in the second case it was horizontal.
Having experienced the problem firsthand, I do *not* side with Microsoft. I have had laptops, portable CD players, and even desktops that I moved while a disk was playing (I build computers from parts so I do move them around sometimes while they're working). I have *never* experienced anything like this.
Microsoft totally deserves the grief they're getting for this.
Forget the obvious damage from tilting the cdrom drive, most xbox 360s have hard disks and it is just not a good idea to tilt any system with a spinning hard disk, you are asking for a head crash.
Even if properly maintained, by which properly needs to be interpreted as 'reasonably', the discs would scratch.
Because of the fact that Microsoft produces the XBox, they are juridically responsible for the failure of the product and they should replace defective units.
As stated in the article, Microsoft did produce the units with premeditation: they knew of the problem. You can't hold the end user responsible for defects you put in the machine in the first place, juridically seen that is.
In analogy, it is saying something like 'of course the car would set on fire if you'd actually try to drive it, so please don't'.
I RMA'd my xbox 360 almost two years ago (three ring of death problem) and I've always used the console in the vertical position in the past, but the replacement console I received the drive won't open on it unless it is in the horizontal position. Apparently I got a replacement that uses a Hitachi drive.
I barely use the console, around ten hours a week which is roughly two hours each day, and I have noticed that it is starting to randomly lockup (no three ring of death yet) and it is out of warranty. I've had computers that I have personally built myself that cost less than the xbox 360 brand new (when it originally came out) and have ran them 24/7 for nearly seven years for both gaming and servers without starting to have problems. Yet a gaming console that I hardly ever use just loves to have problems every year.
And people say gaming on the computer is dead, what are they smoking? I'm not even going to go into the whole pay $60+ (console) for a game vs. $50 (PC), mods and new maps free (PC) vs. new maps, but no mods $8+ (console), plus online gaming free (PC) vs. $50/yr (console) (xbox 360 specific examples). Oops too late...
This space is not for rent.
I can't believe that I'm seeing people here blame end users for this problem.
Consumers are now acting more like battered wives than ever before. Blame yourself - you are the problem...it can't possibly be the manufacturer's fault.
My car has a DVD player that CONSTANTLY moves around while it is playing - rough roads, fast corners, hard braking - the works.....and guess what - it has never scratched a disc - EVER.
Why can't one of the richest technology companies in the world figure out what cut-rate Chinese electronics manufacturers figured out years ago?
-ted
I borrowed a friend's xbox360 when they first came out and rented Project Gotham Racing. While playing the controller caused the console to move a bit (maybe 1/2 inch) and we heard a nasty noise and the game crashed. Upon removing the disc, we found it to be scratched beyond usefulness.
Since then I have dropped my ps2 from the case it sits in with no ill effects to the disk within. I have purchased a ps3 as well and have had no such problems with it. Needless to say, I did not purchase an xbox360 because of this, although i did have to buy the Project Gotham Game due to damage.
Combine this with the fact that EVERY one of my friends 360s die about once a year, how could MS be making money on this thing?
The first through fourth gen PS2 had the same problem. I would get radial scratches on the disc, one of which (GTA:VC) never even left the console until I was through playing it.
I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
Yup. This problem is compounded by the fact that the 360 overheats if it is not in an open area.
I have to pull it out of its niche in the furniture every time I want to play for more than 10-20 minutes. I then place it on top of the TV table, right beside the TV. All this movement may cause spinning dvd to get damaged (as TFA points out). Plus, the Box is left in an inadequate position during gameplay. That led recently to my 4-y-o son knocking it down (from vertical do horizontal, it did not fall to the floor) while we played Viva Pinata -- ruining the disk the original (brand new) Viva Pinata disks. And they don't let you play backups :-(((.
I know, I know, it is my fault I placed it vertical on the furniture. But it would never have been there if it did not overheat in the first place.
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
If manufacturers are going to treat customers as beta testers, and hide from them when the product fails, there are only two recourses, and I recommend both: stop buying the company's product, and file a class-action lawsuit.
Even if it is fashionable to claim it, Capitalism does not mean "cheat the people".
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
I don't own a 360. I don't read all that much about the 360. But still, even I knew from seeing random news headlines and forum posts over the last few years about the scratching problem. Despite early adopters having had nearly a one in two system failure rate, Microsoft denied the red ring of death problems at first, too. So is anyone else here really surprised?
Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
Yeah, it's not like people are used to having appliances that spin similar disks and can be carried aournd like a portable device, is it? What's that you say about portable CD players? You meant that we have been able to buy a device that can play an optical disk and can be carried, moved around, reoriented, without damage? For over a decade?
/. realizes that reading a CD in a CD player is different to reading a DVD at a much higher rotational speed, but does Joe Public?
Yes, probably every person reading
Secondly, it is not even reasonable to expect people to read the manual. Manufacturers have made manuals unreadable. 90% of a modern manual is safety instructions that no one reads.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
This is one compelling reason why people should be allowed to make copies of the media they own. I don't want to have to pay for something I already bought.
I wonder if this had anything to do with MS releasing new firmware that allows you to download the contents of the disc onto your hard drive. Sure, you need the disc to start the game, but the rest is entirely loaded from the hard drive. I find that the decrease in load time isn't that noticable.
My drive works in both positions, and I read the warning and I'm not dumb enough to move the console with a disc in the drive. I don't want any scratched discs.
However, the average user is not going to understand why you can't jostle the magic game box.
They're using their grammar skills there.
Why do they call it xbox 360
cuz when your discs are all scratched up you turn 360 degrees and walk away
That's such an insightful statement. Just to test though - find a cliff, turn 360 degrees and then walk away from it...
"It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
Forget the obvious damage from tilting the cdrom drive, most xbox 360s have hard disks and it is just not a good idea to tilt any system with a spinning hard disk, you are asking for a head crash.
Modern hard disks can take something crazy like 300Gs of force while running. Any slight rotation of them is like nothing, it's not like the heads have a ton of mass or the platters are wobbly plastic.
Just about any CD-ROM you can get today has similar protections, the disc is held firmly - not matter how I've move a laptop I've never scratched a disc.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I'm noticing that most everyone that says this isn't Microsoft's fault are the people that don't have a 360 and have never had a disc scratched because you sneezed on the system.
Of interesting note is that companies experienced in drive design - namely, Sony and Nintendo - designed their drives not to scratch the disk if the unit was moved. And that they've been doing this for more than 20 years.
Rather than rely on time tested and proven designs, Microsoft typically comes up with their own novel, seemingly clever reinvention of the wheel. This is but one case in point - optical disk drives which *DO NOT* scratch disks have been made for more than 20 years, and yet, Microsoft can't get it right. Why? Well, because they have this myopic, naive, we-must-invent-everything-ourselves culture.
So what is the end result? That seemingly clever design doesn't seem so clever when subjected to the rigors of the real world. Just like their software, it was designed for a very small range of operating parameters.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
Only so much room on the table, and the pizza arrived?
Sometimes, life itself is sarcasm...
1. I did not know I was not supposed to change the orientation of the 360, that left a really nasty scratched out ring about halfway down the radius of the disc (Oblivion). I was never able to buff the scratch out, even with a buffing machine. I always RTFM, and I don't remember a warning on changing the orientation of the console while a disc was inside. I ended up burning my surplus points in Goozex.com to get a replacement disc.
2. I left a disc inside of the Xbox while the house was being fumigated. The poison seeped into the Xbox and somehow the disk soaked it in and the surface became cloudy. No scratches, the surface remained smooth, but it looked pretty fogged. I don't see how I can blame Microsoft for this one, I should had just shut everything down before I left the house.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Let's see...
1) Look at the front. Your sight is now at an imaginary 0 degrees
2) Look at your right (chin on shoulder) your sight is now at an imaginary 90 degrees
3) Keep going right until your head is looking EXACTLY the opposite from step 1. No need to put your chin against your vertebra. Your sight should be at an imaginary 180 degrees from the original position. It might hurt by now, but keep trying!
4) Keep twisting your head right until you can touch your LEFT shoulder with your chin. Thats 270 degrees
5) Go Right a bit more, your sight should be pointing more or less to the same place than in 1) (probably a bit higher). That's 360 degrees.
If you didn't get the irony of this all by now, you should check a doctor. (IANAC, IANAD, IANAP)
R'lyeh!
All 6 of us....muahahahahaha.
. Standard operation would not involve moving the item while it was on
Why not? I could do that with any cartridge based system. So... I would say that there is a market expectation that you should be able to move a console around.... regardless of the move to optical drives...
This is my sig.
my 1001 is still fine, though the mod chip seems to be flaky now, even still I use it primarily for RPG's that I legitimately own so no worries there. My old ps2, on the other hand, was a release model, built like total crap, and refused to play games unless it was upside down after just a year and a half of owning it. Worked like that for many years, eventually retired it to my little brother in favour of my xbox and kept the 1001 around to play old RPG's.
Ahh, nostalgia...
The laser carriage and rail in the 1001 PSX was made of plastic and actually wore itself down, so that the laser was not a uniform distance from the data surface. Combined with a change in the discs (either manufacturing or in the copy protection, I can't recall which but I think it was the former) which was more sensitive to the changes, many early PSX systems had to be played upside-down.
HTH
Actually he has a rather large catalog of games that most of which are playable online or multi-user and our house has 9 computers and is wired/wireless to the hilt. I don't know about decline in PC games as they keep coming up with them and we keep spending on them. I have curtailed some of it as it's getting out of control. When he begins to earn his own money he can buy the stuff he wants. Right now, he can play Xbox 360 when we go over for band practice as our fearless leader's kid has one and they do that every Friday night... Thats good enough. Someone elses headache.
All content in this message is copyright (c) 2008. All rights reserved. RIAA is prohibited here.
By declaring that it is intentionally designed to not tolerate movement, it just makes it a more willfully bad call than a mere oversight. No one can see the frequency of complaints and claim any justification on the part of MS about design intent exonerates it. MS screwed it up and has to date botched any official strategy to compensate.
If I designed a mass-market car where the wheels would tend to fall off if driven on a dirt road, do I get away by saying 'oh, we never intended it to be driven on a dirt road'. Meanwhile, I distribute marketing material depicting the car off-roading because it will sell more cars.
It sounds like the best hope for large samples of xBox 360s is to be perfectly still and horizontal and then it *probably* won't scratch disks. Using it vertically seems to induce enough incidental motion to frequently scratch disks, despite MS proudly showing off that mode of usage. As many have pointed out, optical drive makers have been accustomed to dealing with these concerns for a decade before MS was faced with making the important decisions. If MS was given this explicit choice by its optical drive suppliers and made this choice that flies in the face of industry experience, they are of course to blame.
This being said, MS is certainly not alone in the realms of large companies making dumb decisions to save apparent large amounts of money that are chump change in the scheme of things, being eagerly dismissive of the disadvantages. Companies tend to reward yes men. Executive hears that they can save millions of dollars by omitting something that only is needed when a disk moves anyway. It's hard for someone to stand up, make the case to spend that money on the premise that movement is a natural consequence of the usage scenario, and actually be heard over the people scrambling over themselves to be associated with the 'millions saved' bandwagon.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Most software companies get this, and will provide you with a replacement disc if you can prove you own the original.
Most entertainment media companies do not get this, and have successfully convinced millions of customers that their only recourse is to buy a new copy/license. Disney is one of the few who will replace media for a $6.95 fee - probably because of all the kids destroying videotapes and DVDs. If the others do, I haven't been able to find any reference to it on their websites. I gave up trying to replace some audio CDs whose reflective layer started flaking off, and just downloaded flac copies off of bittorrent.
I don't know how much force is generated but it could be enough to scratch a disk. Think about it...
When a disk is in the proper orientation, the axis of rotation is vertical (Pointing up). When you move the unit, the angular momentum is not changed so you are safe in slowly moving the unit back and forth or side to side. With a unit that is on its side however, there often is a rotational change when you move the unit. This rotational motion would involve a change in the angular momentum causing forces to act upon the disk.
It's a rather complicated situation and I might have gotten the explanation slightly wrong. If so, I am sure someone will correct me.
Well it seems to me that Microsoft wanted to get the 360 out too quickly. Avoiding damage to necessary xbox accessories is a fundamental design factor, seems that MS must have been stumped as to what they should do to avoid ruining game discs, they must have asked their granny for advice! Creating a product fit for the purpose is basic product law, if the console is scratching discs then it is not fit for the purpose (the purpose being to play the said discs). There can be no excuses for poor product design, the fact the MS knew about this problem and did nothing should be enough for people to seriously consider alternative products!
I wonder whether some people would prefer a slight increase on the price of a console to include the ability to reorient it while a disk was playing inside without scratching the disc.
Fixed that for /.
Quite frankly with the number of iterations of the XBox 360 out there, you would have thought they would have fixed it somewhere along the line?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
I don't know what the truth is, but a device should take into account the manner in which it will be used and build in tolerance for that. When you have a cable attached to a device where the user will potentially will tug at it, the device should be able to deal with it. Doing so otherwise is like selling a CD player for a car, and then marking in the manual: "not to be used when car is moving", or Fisher Price toy marked as "not to be used by kids".
There is only so much you can blame the user, especially when the users you are blaming reach into a non-insignificant percentage of your client base.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Since the 360 has a lead over the PS3, what percentage of that number is 2,3,4, etc... time owners of defective consoles? I know people who had discs scratched without moving the console. I just don't understand the tolerance level some folks have that they keep buying new ones when they break. I have had all three consoles and the Wii and PS3 are both rock solid. When my 360 started having issues, it was sold and I never looked back.
If I were a jury member, I would vote in favor of Microsoft on this one. Please do a quick check on my posting history -- I am the poster child for microsoft-bashing. But this is just stupid. It never would have occurred to me to move the game unit while it was on, let alone while a game disc was in play/use. I see the XBox360 as yet another computer system built from nearly off-the-shelf components. I know how those things work.
Okay, you could make the argument that "most people don't know these things." That's why there was a warning label and they should read it. But what else could Microsoft have done?
How about a "tilt" feature that turns the machine off and parks the DVD drive when it senses motion. That would be two lessons in one! Don't move the thing when it is on!!! The other lesson would be "Don't move the thing when it is on!!!" (Yes, I know I said that twice... it's for emphasis!) But those lessons could potentially be learned without such a high cost. The "tilt" sensor response could also display a message on the screen as well... might be nice, but powering off would be just as meaningful... they knew what they were doing when it turned off.
This wasn't a 1 in 9 problem, or even a 3 in 9 problem, this was a 1/9 or 3/9 problem after 5 hours of use. What about after another 5? 50? 500? You see where I'm going with this, right?
Even if it is a small subset with defective drives, are they supposed to just piss off because they drew the short straw or something? This race to the bottom is not going anyplace good.
Sounds like you got a bad connection on the PS2 AV cable, instead of whacking the PS2 (or wiggling the cable), replace the cable.
You are claiming that the 360 having problems during movement in contrast to a car optical drive due to design points, and that it would be unreasonable to draw a comparison between the two. However, my counterpoint is that it is obviously broken, so their cost-reducing measures compromising features of their supplier drives were ill-advised. It's not that the car stereo manufacturers ruggedize, it's that 360 suffered quite the opposite process, a deliberate de-ruggedization.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I know I heard sounds suggesting unwanted contact when I moved my wii when it was still on. These companies use standard pc disk drives. They are not designed to protect against movement. Just lay your console horizontally and you won't have to worry about knocking it over.
The mistake in my opinion was not in selling a drive which could scratch discs if moved but in requiring the drive to run at full speed at all times whenever you are playing a game. This adds a great deal of stress to the system, disc and substantial amounts of noise. Most of the time when people complain about the noise of the 360 they are not complaining about fan noise but rather the noise from the drive. Fortunately, this was a mistake the corrected in the last update. Removing both the problem of scratched discs and wear on the disc drive. Microsoft may be slow but they do seem to get themselves oriented eventually.
I love it we know what the problem is we have 3 ways to fix it. However fixing the problem cost too much let try a another way blame the users. It works with Windows blames uses then down the road we will fix it and hope no one finds out. How the Wii won the console wars.
I state claiming the scenario of apparent common use as 'misuse' is a cheap excuse that most optical device vendors do not try to make in this day and age. Events of 'motion' in this case seem to include vibration the unit induces upon itself when in the vertical position. That should be an obvious bad sign. Even if these people are mistaken, it seems that perhaps the vibrations of loud bass or roudy kids playing nearby could count. In contrast, I haven't seen a home CD player so much as skip in the face of such activity since the mid 90s (and even then, I don't remember any persistant harm done, just skipping).
Fine, changing the orientation could be fairly called going above and beyond (though I see no such warnings on any other device), but the reports indicate far less severe actions can cause it. MS either ignored themselves or was ill-advised by an optical drive vendor that ignored important lessons learned. The real world will subject things to vibration, even if the users refrain from intentionally moving the device.
As I have said, the Car stereos aren't that ruggedized, and analysis has shown that the problematic drives lack certain relevant parts that their desktop siblings do have. I.e. in the general PC industry (a desktop is not generally considered a mobile device), it was deemed required to have this stuff. In the 360, with no better an environment, it was removed to reduce cost. Defending a bad decision to the bitter end does a platform you are fond of no favors at all. Every device has shortcomings and trying to gloss over that means the vendor may not learn. I wager there is an engineer or group of engineers that want to make it right, but can not get management buy in without obvious customer satisfaction issues to mollify.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
That none of those (and you forgot 3DO) achieved enough market share to really count enough for a remotely useful comparison).
I do remember the mid-90s starting to come into anti-vibration/anti-skip concerns in CD equipment. That is where I start counting.
Either way though, pretty embarrassing for brand new tech to explicitly ignore mechanical technology that has been relevant for so long.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Citation needed.
Fact of the matter is that PC gaming remains more profitable for most publishers. The big publishers tend to design for consoles as less actual development needs to be done. PC gaming is far from "in decline" with Valve and Stardock continually selling games beyond the estimated demand. Stardock's biggest failure with Sins of a Solar Empire is not printing enough disks to meet demand. this 10 billion odd dollar industry really looks to be failing, sir that is just a Microsoft troll and a poor one at that. PC gaming has been declared dead more times than Lazarus but it's is alive and strong, its not going anwhere. We've outlasted 7 console generations each of which supposedly heralded the "death of PC gaming", heck PC gaming has seen three console makers go out of the hardware business (Sega, Atari, 3DO). MS and Sony are just the latest bunch to try and use this old joke.
EA and their ilk will not swear off the PC market because per unit it is more profitable, and it makes up for a fair chunk in sales (lets ignore the MMO market, WOW's several million per month subscribers). The problem is that EA and their ilk wish to control PC gaming like they control console gaming. Also, the Wii has been the only profitable console, not only in the actual hardware sales but in software sales as well, especially seeing as the software sales do not have to subsidise the hardware.
Once again, how did this get modded insightful? the Parent is a troll and a bad troll at that.
You are making a console for children (primarily teenagers) who are renown for not taking care of their hardware. Logic dictates that you know about this, being common knowledge but released a product that would not stand up to a reasonable amount of wear and tear. If Microsoft were an Australian or European company Consumer protection would have torn them a new one by now.
He did say that he didn't have the budget for it. Not quiet the same as not being able to afford it. But getting a gaming console is not a matter of life or death and it is you who is making it seem that the parent is being unreasonable by not buying his son an expensive entertainment platform. Taking you back to primary shcool, an Xbox is a want, can you tell me the difference between a "want" and a "need".
BTW, if the GP doesn't want to pay for his 14 yr old son to get an Xbox that 14 yr old son can get a job and buy one for himself like I did except that mine console was a SNES that was about half the price of an XBox 360 (adjusted for inflation) and had decent games that had re playability.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
It's not in decline mate. PC gaming is alive and well, these stories come from fanboy's and the big publishers who want to reduce the amount of platforms they support whilst maintaining sales. Smaller publishers like Stardock and Valve are still making significant PC sales increases where large publishers like EA are not.
PC gaming is a different audience to consoles. Consoles are mostly directed to Children and Teenagers, where as the PC gaming crowd is from late teens to 40 and 50 yr olds. There is no "one size fits all" PC game due to the extreme variances in age groups and demographics unlike consoles where the main demographic is within a 10 year stretch (lets say 14-24). PC is more mature and many PC gamers were people who grew up during the heyday of PC gaming (the 90's) so the mainstay of the audience is between 22 and 45. The average age of the PC gamer is 31 (I'm short of by a few years though).
If you're into PC gaming look at Stardock (Impulse) and Valve (Steam) for the real direction PC gaming.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
What happened to cartridges? All you had to worry about was the dust. I think flash drives have gone down enough in price it would be worth while for manufacturers to consider them. Imagine the anti-piracy technology, as well. It would be a RIAA agents wet dream.(Liberally speaking, I know they are not in the same industry.)
Doesn't not purchasing poorly made hardware on the grounds that it is poorly made, even if that means going without, demonstrate to your kids that they should not be consumer whores and demand a certain amount of quality, no matter how much or how little the item costs?
Personally, I think this attitude that the grandparent should buy an Xbox to appease his kid or to allow his kid to be a (IMNSHO) whiny game nerd anyway just so he doesn't miss out is far less valuable. It would simply reinforce the consumerist idea that "I gotta have it... everyone has one, so what if it sucks"
ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
Doesn't not purchasing poorly made hardware on the grounds that it is poorly made, even if that means going without, demonstrate to your kids that they should not be consumer whores and demand a certain amount of quality, no matter how much or how little the item costs? Personally, I think this attitude that the grandparent should buy an Xbox to appease his kid or to allow his kid to be a (IMNSHO) whiny game nerd anyway just so he doesn't miss out is far less valuable. It would simply reinforce the consumerist idea that "I gotta have it... everyone has one, so what if it sucks
I'll comment on this one, because you raise good points. I was, naively, a little surprised by the sheer number of comments accusing me of being a pro-MS fanboy. A lot of them were hypocrisy incarnate - flimsy faux-impartial fanboyisms dressed up as rebukes. As someone who owns pretty much all the consoles, and certainly all from this generation, I'm in a good position to be more objective than most. The point I wanted to make, but probably didn't make well enough, is that the Xbox 360 is the one to own, so far in this generation, just precisely NOT because of the hardware - which is terrible - but because of the titles.
I don't give a rats ass about the hardware, I care about the games. If I was picking on hardware, I'd go for the mystique and sturdiness of the PS3 every time. But the games aren't there. If I had to swear allegiance to one company or another in order to enjoy games titles, I would have quit playing a long time ago. Sony, MS, even goldenboy Nintendo, have all commited heinous corporatisms at one time or another.
All this is meant to suggest that the hardware is a less important concern (provided that you are protected financially from its flaws) than questions about whether or not to have a console at all, or which games you would like to be able to play. Those judgements should all be made on their own merits, but the hardware situation should be as transparent as possible.
Yes, utterly, Microsoft should be held to account for poor hardware - they will be, and have been, and no bad thing. It's cost them a fortune, which serves them right. Consumers SHOULD demand quality. But the point is that you can't simply scratch one console off the list due to poor hardware and go buy another instead unless you don't care about what you're going to be doing with that console in the first place. And to me, that's a lot more like the behaviour of a consumer whore.
Hmmm. I've had mine since April of 2006, have always used it in a vertical upright position, and have yet to experience one scratched disc. Curious.
while Gears of War was in there, I even moved it gently, no shaking, dropping, etc and it was painfully obvious the disc was contacting the tray bottom at a very fast speed, the amount of scratching was obscene.
Fortunately a drive down to my local movie rental shop, $3 for their "scratch removal service" (it took 3 or 4 sessions in the unit but you pay for the service, not the number of times they execute it to fix the disc) and the disc was pretty good again. Although the unit did create a lot of feather scratches but that's nothing a good laser can't get through now-a-days.
Ultimately I wrote it off to my own stupidity of moving the console, but since MS has changed drive manufactores a couple times, I wonder if the current 360s have the same problem?
Unfortunately I don't have any game I loathe enough to make it victim to testing this theory out on the new Xbox I bought 2 days ago.
How about suing for common sense? Is it the blender manufacturers fault that you dropped the spoon into it while it was on? (no blendtec rebuttals please)
The common sense is that a home video game system will get bumped around and moved around. You'll have people reaching it and moving it to make it easier to change disks. You'll have someone tripping over a cord and yanking the console. The family room is a pretty hectic place at times and something that by definition is going to have kids getting their hands on it ought to be robust.
This may not be a "defect" per se, but it is a shoddy engineering call, for sure.
This is my sig.
Well i have seen similar reports in the ibm deskstar fiasko. It is simply that some people are quite lucky and are hit never or rather late (quite impossible in the IBM case, because the failure rate was close to 100%, but still possible)
So call yourself lucky. Also please do a lookup on the history of the xbox 360, it is well documented and there was a 10 page article about its history, that Microsoft deliberately pushed the xbox with problems down the retail channel just to be earlier than sony on the market. The problem was they did not expect the problems as big as they were, but they knew there was a shitload of unsolved problems which would have taken at least another set of months to be resolved. To the worse halfway a lot of people were dragged away from the xbox project into the Zune project leaving the rest of the team undermanned while the pressure from above seemed still to push for the early date.
That they even could pull the thing of is close to a wonder and speaks for the engineers involved which did their best and basically made a miracle possible only to get the beating now for mistakes mainly done by the management who did not have a clue but wanted to get a foothold in the next market they did not understand!
If not all those stupidities would have happened the xbox probably would have come out a 1-2 months earlier than sony, but would have been rock solid!