Wii Game Devs Testing Waters With Less-Casual Games

MTV's Multiplayer Blog has a pair of interviews with Wii game developers about how they're struggling to reach a more hardcore gaming audience. Jordan Itkowitz, lead designer for Deadly Creatures, wants to stay away from designing a typical collection of mini-games, saying, "The trick is to get those new players to step outside that easy comfort zone and try some genres and experiences that, while accessible and familiar to gamers, are still a bit foreign to anyone who's new to the culture." Dan Borth of Red Fly Studio is skeptical of the viability of hardcore games without relying on Nintendo and other major companies to "put a valiant effort in properly supporting developers to create great games."

Comments

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[Anonymous Coward]

do not view the comments in -1 mode. that is all.

They'll sell

[Toonol]

Yes, a lot of Wiis sold to casual gamers. But do they really think hardcore gamers didn't purchase a Wii? Of course they did, to sit next to their 360. They would buy a decent game no matter what console it's for.

There is massive untapped potential for the Wii. I know the graphics are less powerful, but the Wiimote still lends itself to 1st person shooters better than any gamepad. Resident Evil proved that. And the Wii is the only console that a RTS (like Starcraft) would even be possible to be played on. Keep in mind, development costs on a AAA title for the Wii are half or less what they would be on a 360 or PS3.

Please, just make some games for it. Please.

Re:They'll sell

[Crookdotter]

Not to every demographic, certainly not to me. I play games on the PC (CoD, HL etc - the big grown up games), yet on the Wii I mainly play silly games, like mario kart or sonic or brain training stuff, or guitar hero. This is because the missus also plays on the wii (who wasn't any kind of gamer before the wii).

One is the typical lone player in a room somewhere, the other is a social or family game played in the living room. I don't think we'd play hardcore games on the wii at all.

Kids seem to favour the Xbox at the moment - Wii isn't regarded so highly by them and the PS3 is too expensive with not great titles. I think Nintendo are between a rock and a hard place, in that they've done wonders to expand the demographic of players on the Wii, but in doing so they've had to market casual and family games rather than hardcore games because it's families who play the Wii the most.

Re:They'll sell

[Swizec]

No, 1st person shooters on a wiimote? That's insane, you'd _actually_ have to be a good shot to be any good at the game and I doubt most gamers are.

However I can't think of a better way to play Diablo or some other hack&slash than with a wiimote that carefully translates your actions into sword movements. THAT would be awesome! Does it even have enough precision by the way?

Re:They'll sell

[pizzach]

No, 1st person shooters on a wiimote? That's insane, you'd _actually_ have to be a good shot to be any good at the game and I doubt most gamers are.

Not really. From what I have seen all first person shooters have a shooting ridicule so you know exactly where the shot is going to go. It really is a lot like aiming with a mouse in that way. With traditional first person shooters you had to feel for the correct spot.

However I can't think of a better way to play Diablo or some other hack&slash than with a wiimote that carefully translates your actions into sword movements. THAT would be awesome! Does it even have enough precision by the way?

Not likely or at least not easily. But Wii-motion plus should hopefully fix things. From what I have seen, the motion controls on the wiimote aren't that amazing, but the pointer controls work really well.

Re:They'll sell

[Jeremy Visser]

Not really. From what I have seen all first person shooters have a shooting ridicule so you know exactly where the shot is going to go.

I think the word you're looking for is "reticule".

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

No, 1st person shooters on a wiimote? That's insane, you'd _actually_ have to be a good shot to be any good at the game and I doubt most gamers are.

You should test Metroid Prime for Wii. It clearly shows that FPS games are possible for Wii. Heck. That game is one of the biggest reasons I got convinced about Wii. The Wiimote and nunchuk -controls for FPS games are ingenious.

I just wish i could control a beowulf cluster with those ;-D

Re:They'll sell

[MichaelSmith]

I am not a gamer, but I bought a Wii for the family for Christmas. The best thing about it for me is that you can play the games standing up. It doesn't actually make you fit but it is still much better than sitting around.

I would love to see a second life client for the Wii. I would definitely give that a go.

Re:They'll sell

[RiotingPacifist]

I know the graphics are less powerful, but the Wiimote still lends itself to 1st person shooters better than any gamepad. Resident Evil proved that. And the Wii is the only console that a RTS (like Starcraft) would even be possible to be played on.

When i tried playing resident evil on the wii i found that the wiimote simply doesn't make a very good gun, you have to aim the a crosshair by moving the wiimote instead of just aiming. If the wiimote was ever made into a good aiming device then perhaps it would be good for "gun games" (i cant think of the correct genre name but timecrises and resident evil are not really FPS in the hardcore "oh shit i forgot to sleep again" sense) but the problem is that most genres need you to be able to control the direction and movement of the character, and if you want to achieve this you either lose the benefit of aiming with the wiimote, or end up with a complex control system which looses the benefit of the wiimote entirely.

Hardcore games tend to come in 3 main genres RPG, FPS, RTS (and their multilayer variants). The Wii doesn't have the control scheme to compete on FPS (mouse+keyboard or joysticks) which is generally what the majority of hardcore gamers play. While the wii could make some ground up on RTS and RPG it multiplayer aspect is defiantly lacking (i have to admit that Microsoft have done something right with xbox live, hell enough suckers are paying monthly fees for what you get free on pc games that they must be).

SO of 6 'hardcore' genres the wii is limited to 2, while it may be worth encouraging a few ports to the wii, nintendo are better of forgetting about hardcore gamers and just coming out with original games for casual gamers/families e.g minigame based, board games, puzzle adventures, etc

Re:They'll sell

[Nursie]

"One is the typical lone player in a room somewhere, the other is a social or family game played in the living room. I don't think we'd play hardcore games on the wii at all."

That's just, like, your opinion, man!

Personally I like the 360, I like FPS, but I also like doing it with friends, preferably in the same room. This is why things like Gears of War 2 utterly rock. It's an involved, all action shooter you can play split-screen co-op.

The Wii sits largely unused because basically the games are usually like a collection of flash games with a funky controller.

Give me something hardcore that makes good use of the Wiimote please. I know I'm not the only gamer that feels this way. I have this funny feeling that the Wii may be about the best selling console we ever see, but also with a historically low attach rate as kids/families love it but don't buy many games, and the likes of me just leave it in a corner.

Re:They'll sell

[Mattsson]

If they have support for using a Bluetooth or USB mouse, an RTS would be great on the Wii.
Same goes for any other console with BT or USB support, though.
In my experience with the Wii, the Wiimote isn't really suitable as a mouse-replacement.

Re:They'll sell

[alannon]

I disagree entirely. Just try playing Metroid Prime 3, for example. It's a first person shooter and has fantastic controls, particularly if you compare it the Gamecube Metroid games. As good as a mouse & keyboard? That -might- be arguable. But certainly in the same class.

Re:They'll sell

[somersault]

I bought a Wii, then gave it to my little sister a few months after getting my PS3, because the Wii was getting absolutely no use. It wasn't because of the graphics, it's just because of the lack of games with depth. The only games I played for more than a week were Zelda and NFS: Carbon.

You can plug mice into Xboxes and PS3s, so I don't see why playing an RTS on a console would be any more awful than it already is on PC. In fact my little brother used to play C&C on Playstation with a mouse, which we also used for playing Quake (bit of an unfair advantage for the person that had the mouse in multiplayer matches though).

Re:They'll sell

[Eternauta3k]

However I can't think of a better way to play Diablo or some other hack&slash than with a wiimote that carefully translates your actions into sword movements

Are you kidding? Going from *click*click*click*click* to *swing*swing*swing*swing* would make your arm fall off after 5 minutes.

Re:They'll sell

[Swizec]

I didn't say it would be easy. But it would be AWESOME! :P

Re:They'll sell

[Lumpy]

the problem is the "adult games" are half assed on the Wii.

I have bought one of the Splinter cell series for the Wii. the game utterly sucks. Mostly because the controls were programmed by a complete idiot.

Instead of using the Wii's powerful controls to make a shooter game better, Ala Raging rabbits, aim the wiimote like a gun, I have to shoot using their auto aim and the most ckunky control system on the planet. It makes the game suck because the guys that programmed it were idiots, the playtesters were idiots, and they simply phoned in the game in hopes that some schmuck will buy it accidentally.

So if these companies half ass the controls, yes the games will not sell. Many games are a no brainer purchase. but after my experience, anything that may interest me that is a shooter or another type will be rented first to see if the programmers were morons once again and screwed up the controls.

Re:They'll sell

[plague3106]

My wife got me my Wii. It's been a while since I owned a console (SNES). I like it, but I'm not into causal gamers. I try to buy all the kinds of games I do like (Tomb Raider, RE4, etc), but sadly there isn't much choice for me. So I plan on getting a PS3. I'll continue to buy games for both (Tomb Raider UW, since it seems the Wii version is different). Hopefully more serious games will come to the Wii.

So... I'm with you, but I'm losing faith that my kind of games will ever take hold on the Wii.

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

...more commonly called a "reticle."

Re:They'll sell

[mrchaotica]

but the problem is that most genres need you to be able to control the direction and movement of the character, and if you want to achieve this you either lose the benefit of aiming with the wiimote, or end up with a complex control system which looses the benefit of the wiimote entirely.

That's what the "nunchuk" (which includes a thumb joystick) is for.

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you heard of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Tales of Symphonia 2, Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles, House of the Dead 2 and 3 Return, Resident Evil 4, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Super Mario Galaxy, Final Fantasy Fables: Chocobo's Dungeon, Manhunt 2, Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, and so on?

The games that have a little more substance than a 'collection of minigames' are there, you just have to be a little less of a gaming hermit and look for them.

Re:They'll sell

[Quiet_Desperation]

From what I have seen all first person shooters have a shooting ridicule

What, like some NPC that follows you around and rags on you when you miss?

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

second life on the Wii? that'd be about as fun as playing the Wii while it is in the OFF position.

Re:They'll sell

[socrplayr813]

Replacement != equivalent

Developers should figure out creative and useful ways to use the Wii remote in their games, not just treat it like a mouse. Just because it's not as precise as a pointer device doesn't mean it doesn't have a place. The Wii remote doesn't have to perfectly mimic the function of a mouse to replace it for Wii games.

Re:They'll sell

[vux984]

When i tried playing resident evil on the wii i found that the wiimote simply doesn't make a very good gun, you have to aim the a crosshair by moving the wiimote instead of just aiming.

Pretty much. The wii remote is not a light gun. The point the remote is actually pointing at is not likely the point at which the reticule is going to be at... so you can't sight down the 'barrel' of your wii remote.

However, if you use it as intended, as a way of manipulating the on screen reticule... tilting your aim down to move the reticule down, up to move it up, etc... using the position of the reticule to guide your movements to adjust its position it works VERY well. And frankly this is exactly the same way you use a mouse on a computer or target with a thumstick on a ps3/360.

In fact, in my opinion, it works FAR BETTER than a ps3/360 auto-centering thumbstick for aiming, and compared to the mouse its "equal but different".

The mouse is still more precise, and you can play longer without fatigue so its better from that point of view, but standing in front of a big screen TV pointing at it with the wii remote is more visceral and immersive so its better from that point of view. ...but the problem is that most genres need you to be able to control the direction and movement of the character, and if you want to achieve this you either lose the benefit of aiming with the wiimote, or end up with a complex control system which looses the benefit of the wiimote entirely.

It sounds like you played, Resident evil Umbrella Chronicles'. The rail-shooter.
Try Resident Evil 4. or Metroid Prime 3 which use the thumbstick on the nunchuk to control movement to great effect, and then come back and let us know.

It works much better than you seem to think is possible. The Wii is amazing with a good FPS title.

Re:They'll sell

[sgt scrub]

I'm sure there is a very large % of people doing exactly what you say, 360/ps3+Wii. Add the physical relationship the Wii has created between games and gamers and possible future games makes a hardcore gamer like me want it even more. I'd be pretty stout if my FPS gaming required me to run and jump.

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii is just a gamecube with a cute remote on it. Its an underpowered machine that no one really wants to waste their time on.

All decent games are cross platform and will be played and purchased on a more powerful machine.

Let people go back to playing Wii Sports and leave it alone. I know most of the profit comes from software, but maybe they will think of that next time they design a console.

My Wii sits there turned off for 6 months at a time until family or friends come over.

Re:They'll sell

[Jaazaniah]

I agree, but I'm not holding my breath. Several months ago I sent a scathing letter to Nintendo customer service as I felt I got the short end of the stick by a long shot by purchasing a Wii. The avoidance of "bundles of mini-games" would be a very welcome change to this hardcore gamer.

A quick run down of my letter is I outlined my number of nintendo purchases over the years and the fraction of those that I felt were worth the time and money. It went from 50/70 for the original gameboy to 11/30 for the Wii. I let them know that they lost my priceless customer loyalty. I'll return to a cold-hard analysis against their competitors for the next generation.

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

cartoony

Mario Galaxy was easily the most engrossing game I played last year, and the fact that it had cartoon characters in it didn't detract from this one bit. Does playing games on your children's toy which are themselves marketed towards children bother you?

Re:They'll sell

[Nursie]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest, it just doesn't really do it for me either.

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed stuff on the wii, but it doesn't have lasting appeal. This thread should be evidence enough for third party games companies that there *is* an audience of folks like me, regardless of the validity of my opinions on cartoony games.

Re:They'll sell

[Binty]

After playing World of Goo for pc and wii, I have much more respect for the wiimote pointing function. In case you haven't heard of it, the game involves placing little balls using drag and drop mechanics to build structures. In some cases you have to be very fast and very precise and the wiimote handled it beautifully. It was at least as good as a mouse, and I think some extra polish on the wii controls actually made the game better on that platform.

Re:They'll sell

[TemporalBeing]

If Nintendo wanted the Wii to really take off

Except the Wii is ALREADY the most successful platform in this generation if not in all previous generations. It's only competitor is PS2 for sales counts, and its already crushing that for where the PS2 was at the same life point.

Face it, the Wii already took off as it is with the strategy Nintendo is already using. Why would they change it?

Great games marry a well known genre with great stories, challenge curves, artwork, plot, and so on; all of which takes time, iterative design, and lots of competition.

For hard core gamers, true. For everyone else, not so much. Most people care about being able to (a) have a little bit of fun, and (b) being able to play the game. For example - I love racing games, but a lot of the hard core games are just so unplayable that it makes them worthless to me unless I devote hundreds of hours learning how to play the game, which I have not desire (nor time) to do. Hard core games may love that, but the other 99% of us don't.

Wii fit and Wii sports are nice technology demonstrators (just like Quake 3 was a great engine demonstrator on the PC), but not fantastic games.

WiiSport and WiiFit are probably among the most played on the console among any age group. They'll likely go down as a the number one titles for this generation of consoles (if not for all generations up to it) as well if they keep up as they do. Don't forget, they're also used in a lot of places that would never have seen a console otherwise (e.g. nursing homes, rehab centers, etc).

Wii games have not matured into proper genres yet

I'll somewhat agree here - but even then, there are a lot of different genres on the Wii, and some likely some new genres that don't exist any where else. But that's more due to the new technology Nintendo put out than it is for the system as a gaming console.

Re:They'll sell

[geekoid]

yeah, you don't want any real skills to play a game.

However, it's not actually that bad. The games I have seen are designed to take the lack of RW experience into account.

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

You can play the games from any console standing up. Those XBox 360 controllers work just as well four feet off the ground as they do two feet up.

In fact, you might be surprised to know that lots of folks as recently as ten years ago played the majority of their video games standing up, at these buildings called 'arcades'.

Re:They'll sell

[Chris Burke]

What, like some NPC that follows you around and rags on you when you miss?

Like that fucking dog from Duck Hunt.

Ahead of its time, apparently!

Re:They'll sell

[iwan-nl]

to sit next to their 360.

That would be my PS3, sir! I've never been this insulted!

...

Just kidding. I don't own any console. Just my Sony Vaio laptop :P

Re:They'll sell

[snuf23]

you have to aim the a crosshair by moving the wiimote instead of just aiming

I ended up putting a pillow on my lap and resting the wii remote on it. I only needed to make small movements of the remote to move the reticle about the screen. Much less arm strain than trying to hold the wii remote out in from of you during a long gaming session.

Re:They'll sell

[AK Marc]

Wii fit and Wii sports are nice technology demonstrators (just like Quake 3 was a great engine demonstrator on the PC), but not fantastic games.

They really suck for games. But they are played more than any beter game out there. Why? Because they are fun. Sure, Resident Counterquakedoom of Zombies FPS is a great game. Sure the people that review it drool endlessly over it. But people are playimg Wii Sports more. And for lots of reasons, for one, it's easy to pick it up and play with no previous knowledge or training. Another is that I know an old lady with arthritis. She likes to play games some, but had trouble with every other game she's ever played (including PC games because of the mouse). However, even on her worst hands day, she can play Mario Cart, and most everything in Wii Sports.

If Nintendo wanted the Wii to really take off,

Then they'd design it for all people, and not just hardcore gamers. Oh wait, they did, and it has really taken off. I guess they don't need to listen to a hardcore gamer telling them what they did wrong, when they are the champion of the current gaming system generation.

Xbox is best for console games,

Xbox? I guess the Xbox doesn't exist anymore. I bought one. I'll never buy another Microsoft hardware product again, not even their decent Natural line of keyboards. Why? Because when the 360 came out, the Xbox was treated like it didn't exist. They even created a whole new live system to make it more difficult to buy online time for the Xbox. It was abandoned so fast it was painful. The only good thing about it is that it's dirt cheap to pick them up used. A friend got 4 of them for his church along with a pile of games for less than the original price of a single one. Microsoft abandoned it so well, people don't even state which Xbox they are talking about, but the "360" must be assumed. There are more games being made for systems that are older than the Xbox than were made for it in its prime.

Wii is the best and only platform for Wii games, which is highly differentiated from most mainstream games.

Last I looked, Wii accounted for half the market. It defines "mainstream" better than anything available on the 360 or PS3. Wii Sports is the number one selling video game of all time, beating anything ever put out by Sony or Microsoft. Yet they have yet to join the mainstream. I think the mainstream has left the station, and you are standing on the platform with the crazy old homeless lady reminiscing about the good old days where graphics made the game, even if it played like crap.

Re:They'll sell

[CAIMLAS]

Personally, I've been waiting for gaming to get the "move your arm to shoot" control for FPS type games since the NES was the hottest thing in town. A FPS is much, much better when you're actually, you know, shooting. Like in the arcade.

Re:They'll sell

[CAIMLAS]

You do know you can calibrate the reticle to actually point where you're aiming it, right? It takes a little bit of effort moving the reciever around and testing, but it works. No more effort than sighting in a real gun, I s'pose.

Re:They'll sell

[grumbel]

You should test Metroid Prime for Wii. It clearly shows that FPS games are possible for Wii.

For me Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii showed the exact opposite. It near impossible to hit anything in that game if you don't use lock-on. The whole concept of having aiming and character rotation on the same control feels pretty broken and lock-on is the only thing that makes that game playable. Now that doesn't mean an FPS is completly impossible, it would be interesting to see a game would work where the Wiimote is used for aiming exclusivly and rotation is done by the analogstick. But as is the Wiimote is far far away from being a decent FPS control.

Re:They'll sell

[vux984]

You do know you can calibrate the reticle to actually point where you're aiming it, right? It takes a little bit of effort moving the reciever around and testing, but it works. No more effort than sighting in a real gun, I s'pose.

Is that a calibration feature of a particular game, or are you saying its generally true. Because its not generally true from what I can tell.

You can certainly improve things to a point, by moving the light bar and re positioning yourself. But it has no way of telling it how big your TV is, and no system of pointing at the center and corners to give it some sort of calibration info... unless I've really missed something.

Re:They'll sell

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the Wii is ALREADY the most successful platform in this generation if not in all previous generations. It's only competitor is PS2 for sales counts, and its already crushing that for where the PS2 was at the same life point.

The console sales for the Wii are higher than any other next-gen console, but the companies don't make much money on console sales. Microsoft is managing to break even on the 360 and Sony is losing money on every PS3 they make. The sales that matter to these companies is in the games. At the moment Microsoft is doing far better in this area.

Considering that Nintendo has managed to get a Wii into more households than any of the other consoles, it's ridiculous that they have such low game sales to show for it.

Re:They'll sell

[brkello]

Why change? Because they are selling the console extremely well but are doing a poor job selling games. Anecdotal, I know, but everyone I know who has one, doesn't touch it anymore. It might get turned on for the rare party, but that's it. If they had more games that catered to the people who play games, they would be doing better.

I really don't understand the Nintendo apologist. You are actually trying to argue against more diverse games on the Wii. How on any planet would having something more than mini-games on the Wii be a bad thing?

Re:They'll sell

[TemporalBeing]

I really don't understand the Nintendo apologist. You are actually trying to argue against more diverse games on the Wii. How on any planet would having something more than mini-games on the Wii be a bad thing?

I'm not acting as a Nintendo apologist. Just pointing out the economics - which basically shows that there is nothing right now for Nintendo to gain by doing as you suggest. Once they can meet market demand, then it would stand for their economic benefit - but not right now. Right now, it would only anger more customer than it would make happy. That's the economics and business view point.

From the gaming stand point, yes - it would make more sense to do so. But then economically it creates more demand for something that already can't fulfill demand so it would only be economic suicide.

From the apologists view point - you have the economics, the business, and the "so what?" factor. Nintendo is raking in the dough on the Wii now, and making more or better games won't change that.

Again - there no economic benefit to creating more demand for something that already can't fulfill demand.

There's more to life than games. Nintendo, as one of the oldest gaming companies, realises this.

Re:They'll sell

[MrResistor]

I think Morrowind had a system where it translated your mouse movements into specific attacks (slash, jab, etc). I could be thinking of Daggerfall, it's predicessor, though. I always thought that was pretty cool, and it should be implementable with the Wii. I would really enjoy that, but my right arm would also get really tired.

slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matters

[Anonymous Coward]

1) remove the politics section
2) remove the idle section
3) delete the accounts of all editors and readers who mainly posted in those sections
4) ...
5) news for nerds, stuff that matters

http://www.google.com/trends?q=slashdot%2C+digg

You see that? Even sites where one can post random bullshit have become more popular than this fucking place...

you whore this place out to sensation, plugs and bullshit...

Even the GNAA doesn't seem to post here anymore...

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because the classic and always-amusing GNAA press releases get caught by the lameness filter now. Which is a damn shame, they were always a good read.

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[meringuoid]

http://www.google.com/trends?q=slashdot%2C+digg

You see that? Even sites where one can post random bullshit have become more popular than this fucking place...

I'll go one further:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=slashdot%2C+digg%2C+4chan

You underestimate the popularity of random bullshit. It attracts vast numbers of people. Of course few of them have anything worthwhile to say desu desu desu desu desu. I can has cheezburger?

Why would they cost less?

[Moraelin]

Keep in mind, development costs on a AAA title for the Wii are half or less what they would be on a 360 or PS3.

Admittedly, it's been a decade since I had anything to do with the games industry, but I'm seriously drawing blanks there. Why would they cost less? Coding support for a mouse or gamepad isn't half the cost of any game I know of, so how's the wiimote going to cut half the costs?

Or are you just comparing the cost of doing a silly (if fun) minigame on the Wii to, say, a complex RPG on other consoles, and extrapolate from there? I mean, seriously, half the games on the Wii seem to be of the calibre of Link's Crossbow Training or similar complexity. Again, I'm not picking on the fun factor, just the complexity there. Other games have something like that as just one of the many minigames, or as just one of the many things you have to do.

I don't think the costs of writing a good story and scripting it are going to get any lower, just because it's on a Nintendo console, for example.

And considering how many games these days are cross-platform, or at least try to look as good as the competitive offerings on other platforms, I don't think Wii's crappier hardware is going to be much of a cost-saver for most devs. In practice, you'd end up having to redo the graphics or level or do perverse swapping tricks to fit (some of) them into its tiny memory. Either of those means actally extra development costs. Again, don't extrapolate what's needed for a minigame to mean you'd need the same pittance of graphics for a more complex game.

It's really quite simple

[Kjella]

The Wii has sold 46 million consoles. How many of those do you need to sell to in order to make a profitable "hardcore" game? Not that many...

Re:It's really quite simple

[Drakkenmensch]

The math on this is quite easy to grasp from a marketing angle. If even a single percent of all Xbox 360 owners buy a game, that's still nearly half a million units. Considering that hardcore gamers tend to gravitate to the Xbox 360 (and PS3, which also has high units sold numbers), a well-designed title can do extremely well. Just look at the launch day numbers for games like GTA4, Halo 3 or GoW2!

Re:It's really quite simple

[jgtg32a]

A massive marketing blitz helps a lot too.

Re:It's really quite simple

[tbannist]

By that logic, everyone should be developing games for the... PS2?

After all, it's got 5 times the install base of the Wii. The problem with "hardcore" games is that most of the people who like to play them don't actually own a Wii or also own a platform that caters to "hardcore" gamers. So, by producing the game for the Wii, you're either not selling to your target audience. If you go cross platform, your game either looks terrible compared the games on the 360 and PS3 or looks terrible on the Wii compared to PS3 and/or 360 version which naturally hurts sales on the Wii further and makes it less profitable to create the Wii version.

Like most of the people actually faced with this decision, it's just not a good risk to take unless your company name rhymes with Mintendo.

Re:It's really quite simple

[KDR_11k]

Yet in the end most of the games are still crappy, don't sell and leave the company bankrupt because of the insane budgets they blow at these games. EA had to downsize because they no longer managed to make up for the cost.

BTW, if 1% was half a million the 360 would have sold 50 million, it did about half that number. The Wii is at about 46 million sold, if 1% bought a game there you'd have your half a million.

Re:It's really quite simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Soccer moms and senior centers aren't going to buy 'hardcore' games.

Re:It's really quite simple

[im_thatoneguy]

But hardcore gamers also have a 360 or PS3. Both of which provide dramatically better graphics.

Re:It's really quite simple

[grumbel]

What you forget is that a casual game is much cheaper to produce and might easily sell more. A hardcore game isn't very attractive target, when the target audience is in a completly different direction. Also most hardcore developers like to push boundaries, with the Wii it would be quite a step back on the technical side.

Re:It's really quite simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's the thing.

I am currently attending a school for game programming with about 90 students in the program at my campus.
Not too long ago, the student flyer had a quick survey from the students of the program. It had some interesting information.

1) the average student age was 21
2) the average student played 20-25 hours of games a week
3) the average student paid between $150-$200 on video games a month.

These three stats alone show that this group is not only a good representation of the target market (early twenties with disposable income), but they are pretty hardcore gamers as a group.

These were some other stats
-79 of the 90 students responded
of these 79 students
-all owned a PC (or Mac running windows)
-68 owned an XBox 360
-39 owned a PS3
-71 owned a Wii
-53 of those students said the Wii was their favorite system
-No one's favorite game was on the Wii (PS3 -14/XBox 65)

This shows me that the market is their for an exclusive Wii product/game for the hardcore market. The developers just don't know how to do it well. That's the real issue. The Wii's setup is SO different from the norm that developers still haven't entirely wrapped their head around it.
After putting some thought into it and looking at the products that are successes on the Wii, I think I can say that the 3rd party developers are afraid. How many games over the last two console generations really weren't that good, but got by because they were pretty, or because the story was good when the gameplay and the fun just weren't there.
The Legacy of Kain games had a cool, twisty story with awesome characters and fun voice acting to go along with it. They are crazy popular (almost cult following-ish) games, but they played like they were designed on an etch-a-sketch! They were garbage. You can't do that on the Wii. The gameplay is not only important, but the control scheme puts it front and center. It is necessary on the Wii as you can't get away with slogging through with the worlds most amazing graphics (which it can't do) and no gameplay.

In short(too late), your not gonna find financial and sales reasons to not do hardcore games on the Wii. The base is their. Any developer would tell you in a moment of truth they would love to launch a AAA blockbuster on the Wii's installed user base if only because of sheer numbers. The fact is, they are afraid because they aren't sure how to do it. Gameplay is the key again, like it hasn't been since the SuperNES/Genesis days, and they don't remember how to focus on that anymore. They don't remember how to make the games fun anymore (with a few given exceptions), not without the crutches of souped up graphics to distract the player from the fact that they are playing the same FPS they have been playing for 5 years with a new skin.

Oh, and by the way, I love my 360, but would give it back in a heartbeat for a set of third party games on the Wii that understood how to use the system to it's fullest potential.

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is the most popular in Japan, maybe this site should close down and we could all move on to slashdot.jp.

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[Anonymous Coward]

trolling towards a worldwide inflection point

http://www.google.com/trends?q=slashdot%2C+reddit

Low detail

[tepples]

Keep in mind, development costs on a AAA title for the Wii are half or less what they would be on a 360 or PS3.

Admittedly, it's been a decade since I had anything to do with the games industry, but I'm seriously drawing blanks there. Why would they cost less? Coding support for a mouse or gamepad isn't half the cost of any game I know of, so how's the wiimote going to cut half the costs?

Because Wii uses 480p video, artists can get away with less detailed meshes and textures than Xbox 360.

In practice, you'd end up having to redo the graphics

For a title that isn't going anywhere other than Wii, PS2, PSP, and PC with Intel GMA, you just "do" the graphics at low detail in the first place.

Re:Low detail

[Moraelin]

Except even a:

- PS2 has 4MB of video RAM, vs the Wii's 3MB

- PSP, ok, has marginally less RAM and video RAM, but has to run at a fraction of the resolution. And has the excuse that it's a _portable_ system, i.e., you don't expect the same games as on a home PC or console. You expect minigames to play on a bus or train.

- PCs with Intel GMA, you can't even freaking buy one with less than half a gig main RAM and 64 MB video RAM, except if someone robbed a museum and you found their fence. Heck, most new-ish chipsets allow for more shared RAM than the Wii has total, including main memory.

- heck, even the ancient Dreamcast had 8MB of video RAM, for the same 480 line resolution (if nothing else, it supported 640x480 non-interlaced on a VGA monitor)

Nintendo's little cheap box is good for one thing: minigames. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad for them. They found a lucrative niche there, and obviously filled a need. Kudos and more power to them. But if you're going for AAA PC-like titles, that yesterday-gen hardware is going to be a pain in the arse.

_If_ you make graphics only for that console, you just shot yourself in the market share.

_Even_ _if_ you make the graphics only for the Wii, if you want your game to compete with more than minigames, you'll want the game to at least look competitive with what one can buy on other consoles in your chosen genre. You're moving outside the niche of the minigames nobody else did, at that point. If you want me to buy a complex RPG (or any other genre) on a Wii, well, you'll have to give me some reason why I wouldn't buy the better looking PS3 or XBox 360 games in that genre instead.

Nothing against the console as such, but I will be comparing the games when I decide which I buy. Precisely because I have nothing against either of the consoles a priori. I don't care if it's a PS3 or XBox 360 or Wii one, I'll just compare the games. Yours better not look much worse than the game from those other guys, if they're in the same genre and thus compete with each other for my cash.

You _will_ end up doing extra programming to swap graphics in and out, to make that comparison work in your favour.

Re:Low detail

[KDR_11k]

_Even_ _if_ you make the graphics only for the Wii, if you want your game to compete with more than minigames, you'll want the game to at least look competitive with what one can buy on other consoles in your chosen genre.

No. People buy games for more than just their graphics. What you have to make is a good game which many companies are currently failing spectacularly at. Would you really buy an inferior game in the same genre just because it looks better? The competition is on quality which is more than graphics.

BTW, the 3MB video memory seems to be just the part embedded into the GPU, the system also has 24MB of SRAM and 64MB of GDDR3 SDRAM which should be fast enough to be used for graphics as well (GDDR3 is used on some graphics cards and it's the slower of the two). Since games tended to have higher resolution textures on the GC than the PS2 I think the main memory can indeed be used for textures as well and the 3MB are just the framebuffer and cache. The 360's GPU has 10MB on-chip, for comparison. These are obviously not the same numbers that are advertised for PC graphics cards with their 512MB and whatnot. Of course if it mattered the marketshare wouldn't corelate negatively with the processing power.

And anyway, the Wii is pretty much 50% of the market so going exclusive (as opposed to everything-except-the-Wii) to it isn't exactly a big loss of marketshare but it saves you a massive amount of dev costs (which seems to be becoming important as more and more companies fold because of the dev costs of their HD games).

Re:Low detail

[Moraelin]

No. People buy games for more than just their graphics. What you have to make is a good game which many companies are currently failing spectacularly at. Would you really buy an inferior game in the same genre just because it looks better? The competition is on quality which is more than graphics.

You'd be surprised how many people proclaim loudly that they care about gameplay more than graphics, then go and buy based on graphics anyway. Plus, there's got to be _some_ reason why everyone falls over themselves to provide lots of screenshots.

At any rate, it's a bit of a non-sequitur anyway. If you have great ideas and design skill, you'll have them on any platform. I don't think the guys at Blizzard lost half their IQ because their game isn't on a Wii, for example. And I don't think John Romero would become a great designer if anyone only gave him a Wii SDK. So the same companies which produce duds on the PC, will produce duds on the Wii too. Lack of ideas, lack of design skills, and lack of willingness to take risks by the publisher are what produces those epic failures, and giving the same people a Wii SDK won't make one iota of difference.

So far the only company which is Nintendo-only with their great ideas is Nintendo itself. And it's not the hardware that makes them possible, it's simply having the people who come up with those games.

And anyway, the Wii is pretty much 50% of the market so going exclusive (as opposed to everything-except-the-Wii) to it isn't exactly a big loss of marketshare but it saves you a massive amount of dev costs (which seems to be becoming important as more and more companies fold because of the dev costs of their HD games).

Last I heard, actually the PS2 is still in the lead as the most played console.

Re:Low detail

[KDR_11k]

Graphics used to be the yard stick but as you said the Wii isn't exactly graphically powerful yet it's outperforming the HD consoles by far. The PS2 is damn ugly compared to all three and yes, getting the most playtime.

Of course the Wii won't magically make a bad game good, that's why third parties are failing so hard on the system, they just throw half-assed ports on there and wonder why noone buys them.

Re:Low detail

[TemporalBeing]

Last I heard, actually the PS2 is still in the lead as the most played console.

It's just a matter of time. Nintendo is selling more Wii's every month, and has far surpassed the max per month Sony made of PS2's. So it's only a matter of time before the Wii becomes the most played console.

Re:Low detail

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference being PS2 actually has games people want to play and invest time into. Now that the casual fad has turned from boom to bust due to oversaturation, the Wii does (and probably will) not.

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[Eternauta3k]

That's because the classic and always-amusing GNAA press releases get caught by the lameness filter now. Which is a damn shame, they were always a good read.

I'll second that, now all we get are lame, unfunny racist trolls.

Adult games.. where are they?

[LurkingOnSlashdot]

I think the Wii has a huge untapped potential for x-rated adult games with special "attachments". Why are we not seeing these materialize?

Re:Adult games.. where are they?

[Toonol]

Adult peripherals? Nintendo should realize that's a great opportunity for market penetration.

Animal Crossing

[rlp]

There are lots of in-depth Wii games. Just not a whole lot of shooters (Res Evil, Metroid, Ghost Squad, etc.) But given that the Wii is the number one selling console worldwide, I'm sure that will change. Can't wait for "Animal Crossing - The Revenge"

"What's that? Terrorists have siezed Tom Nook's Store?!"
Goodbye fishing pole, hello chain-gun!

Re:Animal Crossing

[jo_ham]

Tom Nok: "wawaweeewaaawaaeeeeewawewaaweewaa?!!!"

"Me "For the last time! I do not understand your fucked up language! Eat chainsaw bayonet!!!"

Re:Animal Crossing

[SuiteSisterMary]

Mr. Fuzzle's weeds have gone unchecked for too long.End his life.

The commercials are telling me something different

[jellomizer]

Have you watched TV lately it seems like XBox and to a lesser extent Playstation are trying to get the casual/family gamers. Haven't you seen the XBox commercial were you watch a person playing a game all in a sudden gets a stroke and it spins around to the back of their head and you see them doing what they were doing before with a Dad or Mom or something. Then saying all the family games they have (like 2) just to try to get to the Casual Gamer/Family market and compete with the Wii.

I personally don't care for Hard Core games because they usually get boring after a while. Games like Mario Cart you can always strive to get better at it.

Re:A swing and a piss

[paazin]

It seems like Slashdot has been recently flooded with an inordinate amount of trolls and spammers recently

Hardcore Gamer

[kellyb9]

Nintendo Wii? Oh you mean that thing I pick up once or twice a year when I'm having parties...

Re:Hardcore Gamer

[the_arrow]

Only one or two parties a year? Dude, you really need to get in more!

Probably not.

[tbannist]

From what I understand there's a couple of games that try something like this and the combat was described as boring and uninspired.

Re:Probably not.

[Swizec]

Probably depends on how it's done. If you just swing emptily around with gestures, that's boring. But if the motion of your wiimote is directly translated into the motions of your character's sword then that's something. But such a game with all its procedural programming would probably be top news on slashdot throughout its development like Spore was and wouldn't just be "a couple of games ..."

Re:The commercials are telling me something differ

[tbannist]

I've noticed that every game I've seen advertised for the 360 lately has been cross platform. It's usually rock band or something similar in those commercials.

Re:A swing and a piss

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here

Re:A swing and a piss

[paazin]

That could be it too.

Good

[metamatic]

I played Resident Evil 4 (Wii Edition). I played Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I played Metroid Prime 3 and Super Mario Galaxy. I'd have played Okami if I hadn't finished it on the PS2. I played Bully: Scholarship Edition.

Then at some point, it seems the industry decided to stop trying. I haven't seen a new Wii game that appeals to me in months. It's all casual games and shovelware. So I've mostly been focused on the PS3.

But give me another Resident Evil or Metroid Prime on the Wii and I'm in. Or how about some RPGs?

My first time with the Wii

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a former hardcore gamer who has been steadily employed, and just not interested in any game system since the SNES. I bought my brother a Wii for Christmas and we spent a LOT of time playing it.

My initial review- WOW this is AWESOME. I'm ready to wear a full body suit and play games that give a more immersive experience.

We got a Wii Fit along with some steering wheels, guns, nunchucks, the whole shebang. I wish there were more games that implemented the Wii Fit along with two controllers / or 1 controller and the nunchuck.

I love video games but the downside is you're basically sitting on your butt all day. The Wii gave me a heck of a workout and it was FUN. I'm normally a clean freak but I didn't mind breaking a sweat playing on games for 4+ hours straight. I'm DYING for some serious games for the Wii that really put you in the game. I also want more games that recognize the specific angle at which you're holding a sword or shield, rather than just raising your arm to trigger a swing.

I'm surprised anyone doubts this kind of gaming experience.. In my opinion it seems like the holy grail of gaming.

Yes

[geekoid]

lets not develop for the most popular console in the way people bought them for.

Genius!

Star Wars Unleashed

[tedgyz]

I bought Star Wars Unleashed for my 15 year old son. It sure feels like a hardcore game to me. I know it isn't on the far end of the hardcore scale.

Metroid Prime 3 is pretty hardcore too. The only thing lacking is gore and zombies.

As a hardcore gamer and wii owner...

[ActionJesus]

The problem I have with the wii currently is that I can count the number of games which I have enjoyed on one finger. (Fyi, super mario galaxy.)

The problem seems to be that for every "serious" game on the wii, 100 "fun/party" games are released. Sure, it was cute at first, but ~2 years later and I've pretty much not touched the wii since. Sure, a few party games are kinda fun (wii sports for example), but most of them fall into the category of "do something silly with the wii remote for a few seconds, and not much else". To say nothing of the fact that I DONT SPEND EVERY MOMENT OF MY LIFE SOCIALISING WITH FRIENDS. (I know, i know, typical slashdot crowd...)

Now, I realise that these games are probably selling left, right and centre, but it doesnt mean that you're not allowed to make decent, single player games. For chrissakes, I use the wii more as a gamecube emulator than anything else these days.

The wii is clearly capable of running halfway decent games, but unfortunately it seems no-one is interested in producing them.

*other note: im not including wiiware in this rant, as Im well aware that several smaller/indie developers have released stunning games, such as world of goo. But frankly, if I wanted a console with online capabilities that didnt suck, I would've bought an xbox.

But Pokemon Ranch is fun...

[Anonymous Coward]

Making dictator Miis and plopping these evil people down amongst your Pokemon is enjoyable for some reason. Ever wanted to see Adolf Hitler clumsily trip over a Slowpoke and fall onto a Stinky Ball? Worth the $10.

MadWorld

[Jorophose]

If you like games for real men, MadWorld is going to make you go nuts.

A beautiful cell-shaded game, in black, white, and red. It's a gameshow where the more creative you are with your kills, the more points you get. I believe you're in downtown Tokyo or in a similar place, I've only seen screenshots but you're in a more Asiatic city environment.

And there's also The Conduit, Monster Hunter 3, etc., which should be a lot of fun. Of course, I've still got to hunt down all those good Wii games, and it's fairly long play times.

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[arotenbe]

Hey, Slashdot can do random bullshit too. *cough* idle *cough*

Oh, and look at this: http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs%2C+vi%2C+notepad

Hardcore games like...

[j741]

Yes, please please please develop more in-depth games for the Wii.

Here are two current games that I want, but have not purchased only because they are not available on the Wii, and I have not purchased any other console:

- Grand Theft Auto IV (I loved GTA III on the PC)
- F.E.A.R. II

And there are many others that I have passed up, the only reason being that they were not available on my console of choice (or more specifically, my controller of choice).

Re:Hardcore games like...

[EW87]

FEAR II isn't even out yet! Pre-ordered for PS3 YAY

Re:slashdot != news for nerds or stuff that matter

[rogere]

Looks like vi is being affected by the roman number... try with vim http://www.google.com/trends?q=emacs%2C+vim%2C+notepa