Slashdot Mirror


Abused IT Workers Ready To Quit

An anonymous reader writes to tell us that new research is suggesting as many as a quarter of all IT staff in small to medium businesses have suffered some sort of abuse and are looking for careers elsewhere (PDF). "The study also found that over a third have suffered from sleepless nights or headaches as a result of IT problems at work, while 59 percent spend between one and 10 hours a week working on IT systems outside normal hours. ... The biggest cause of stress among IT staff is problems arising from operational day-to-day tasks, the survey found. Another major cause came from loss of critical data, according to Connect."

125 of 685 comments (clear)

  1. It's not so bad by alain94040 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    59 per cent spend between one and 10 hours a week working on IT systems outside normal hours.

    That's the problem right there: in IT, work can be endless. Saying no is key to keeping your sanity. But 2009 is not the best year to take risks. Good luck finding a job elsewhere.

    It's bad in IT, but at least you get to use your brain (to some extent) and some of it is sometimes fun. That's a start.

    Do fun stuff on the side and keep your skills current. That could become very handy sooner than you think.

    --
    FairSoftware.net -- the community for fair entrepreneurs

    1. Re:It's not so bad by Chyeld · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As someone who migrated away from a direct IT job to an HR job that is tangentially IT related, allow me to say that I am far far happier now than when I was doing the death march for people who thought of their IT folk as "geeks" who lived for abuse and being taken advantage of.

      And my mind still gets a work out, and I still get to keep my hand in the water. And, as an extra bonus, when I go home at night. I can actually enjoy tinkering on my own projects instead of feeling as if I'm just bringing 'work' home with me.

      Yes, right now is a bad time to jump for some people. On the other hand, I also realize that as a group, those of us drawn to IT often wait too long before jumping. Don't wait for the perfect moment. Pick one and make it 'perfect'.

    2. Re:It's not so bad by ZygnuX · · Score: 5, Insightful
      If there was actually a little bit more of knowledge about IT, the people who work there wouldn't be treated that badly.

      I guess one of the pitfalls is that there still exists management who believes it's all about turning the right kind of switch and everything will get fixed auto-magically.

    3. Re:It's not so bad by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Informative

      Maybe you should have become an electrical engineer. My job's ridiculously easy, with long periods of not doing anything, while the bosses try to decide what project they want to do next.

      Or maybe that's just because I work for the defense industry. (shrug)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:It's not so bad by drolli · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In *every* Job work can be endless. In my experience (as a scientist) good management can break the endless task into sub-tasks which are doable in a reasonable time, while bad management will do the opposite. That is, shifting the responsibility for the schedule of the whole project to the lower levels. This is *extremely* stupid. If you manage a project, it is your responsibility to stay within costs, time, and promised goals. Over-hours count as costs. If not directly, then indirectly because it may drive your best workers away. Or the person who worked 40hours overtime/week the last year (good luck with replacing him/her).

      Other reasons i have seen for stress and frustration: bad information system infrastructure. For example everybody handle backups himself. That is plainly stupid. I have worked as sysadmin for a long time. And there are few things i very willingly leave to be done by experts, and one of them is backup/archiving (the other one is the mailserver...). Distributing these functions makes sese fro mthe viewpoint of your boss (since assuming you may go doe not leave them woth their pants down. They at least can sent you a mail, and from your viewpoint (you dont take additional stress if things go wrong just wo restore your capability to retrieve backups needed for recovery or e-mail to communicate). I figured that accepting certain troubles is sometimes worth it if you reduce the responsibility of a single person/admin/programmer. This includes bad code.

      Last but not least: If you are responsible you have to live with the coworkers/programmers you are given. If you have a person writing not so fancy code, let him/her work in a productive way (e.g. i had a coworker who wrote code i would call uninspired at best, and a if-then-else hell at worst, but well documented - but there where tasks when exactly that was needed - e.g. for writing instrument drivers). It is not good to force newbies in OOP to design a base class and the interfaces in a framework. This will cause additional night-shifts (and headache to everybody).

    5. Re:It's not so bad by Chyeld · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To be honest, EE was one of the things I was interested in early on in life. However I made the mistake of going to an engineering college for my CS degree and after spending four years putting up with the condescending attitudes of the "real engineers" (students and staff) towards CS, I resolved to never pursue any sort of career choice that would involve having to work with "that crowd" again.

      Honestly, I thought 'jocks' in high school had egos but they had nothing on these folk.

      Which, is probably a sad thing. I imagine taken out of the "Huah! We're number one cause we can do maths!" atmosphere that the university fostered, most of them would have probably turned out to be passable humans.

    6. Re:It's not so bad by stewbacca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Outside normal hours eh? Maybe if IT professionals go into their professions not expecting 8-5 jobs, then "normal" might have a different definition?

    7. Re:It's not so bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Baww your math wasn't good enough was it? But if you ever need something built in the real world that needs to work who are you going to call? thats right, a real engineer. The ego is just a small side effect of being number one.

    8. Re:It's not so bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      You flunked all your computer courses and you can't so much as boot up a video game without a call to the IT helpdesk.

      And yes, that IS the only possible reason for you to have made that post. You'll claim it isn't, but that lie won't even fool yourself, much less anyone with a functioning brain.

    9. Re:It's not so bad by Chyeld · · Score: 3, Interesting

      With respect, while I'm sure both of those places had wonderful engineering programs, they weren't colleges dedicated towards engineering.

      When I said it was an engineering college, I really meant it. That, I assume, was the major contributing factor to the attitude.

      What always amused me was how many people I saw trying to get a liberal arts degree there. It wasn't that liberal arts wasn't worth it, but UMR (as it was named while I was there) had a minimum number of engineering courses you had to take to enroll, and often enough the 'liberal arts' offerings were sparse enough that between the required courses and attempting to "Tetris" your way to required number of credits in your major, you'd be stuck there for six to eight years. It was like these folk were masochists.

      And as far as the simularities in jobs, yes. That's one of the reasons why I was so drawned towards EE. If you get right down to it, EE is where CS came from.

    10. Re:It's not so bad by LingNoi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which is part of the damn problem. The manager expects you to do work outside of work.

      In any other job it's unthinkable, but because of the long standing tradition of putting in more hours then expected IT workers get screwed.

    11. Re:It's not so bad by SpiderClan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's just not true. Accountants, lawyers and engineers are expected to work unpaid overtime if there is work that needs to be done. That's part of being a "professional" is that you do what needs to be done and you get paid by the year, not the hour.

    12. Re:It's not so bad by try_anything · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Saying no is key to keeping your sanity.

      And saying "no" is not something that geeks enjoy, because it takes a certain ability to withstand emotional games that geeks aren't good at. A common reason that geeks (including me) are attracted to scientific and technical endeavors is that we're socially a bit obtuse and aren't good at getting other people to appreciate us. We yearn for objective and scrupulously fair evaluation. We don't want to argue about our performance; we want it to speak for ourselves. It's even better to be alone with the computer: the computer is scrupulously fair.

      We try to excuse ourselves from normal social maneuvering and rely entirely on our intelligence, competence, and ultimately, our good work. Unfortunately, that doesn't work when dealing with people who are angry, fearful, and willing to trample other people. And who isn't willing to trample on the lowly IT geek? Who isn't angry and fearful in an IT crisis?

      When a geek encounters aggression, unfair accusations, and outrageous demands, his response to the social stress is to withdraw (leaving the accusations unchallenged) and fall back on his technical skills (by working overtime to fix the problem.)

      The geek might try to stick up for himself by using facts and logic, but his aggressor will just become more aggressive and insulting. The aggressor understands the audience (bystanders and management) better than the geek and is able to snow them with indignation and misrepresentation, leaving the geek feeling shamed, embarrassed, and sorry that he stuck up for himself. What is his refuge? Demonstrating his ability with a scrupulously fair audience: the computer. So he works overtime to fix things for the guy who just abused him.

      I've never worked an IT job, but I've experienced this as a software developer for a very small company. I no longer work there, and they still pay me a retainer and frequent consulting fees because they haven't managed to entirely replace me :-) Line up a better job and QUIT! Easier said than done, I know. Good luck to everyone stuck in that position. Read a few books like this one, work on sticking up for yourself, and keep it cool.

    13. Re:It's not so bad by dindi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well ... yeyeyey my life sucks too and I am programming 8 hours straigh and blabla ....

      but recently I wnt to my boss and told him that I WANT to get paid for every minute I stay over and every call that comes from the office, and that I want my salary to be a raised because new year's bonus sucked and I worked my ass of for an OK salary.

      They switched me to an hourly pay and got a %25 raise.

      I guess your balls need to drop and then stand up for yourself.

      Needless to say I stay extra hours and when shit breaks they call me. Also I fix problems in other departments even though I am a programmer (networking, unix, DBs (mysql mostly) and sometimes help with OSX machines too)....

      But at least I get paid for it now....

    14. Re:It's not so bad by ToasterMonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

      +1

      Thank you, I don't feel so alone.

      That is, shifting the responsibility for the schedule of the whole project to the lower levels.

      #1 reason I want to fly
      Pushing scheduling for two projects that involve restarting _all_ in house OLTP apps & DBs (config change) and related servers (monthly, patching) onto a UNIX SA. Might not sound so scary if we weren't processing financial transactions
      Me: Everything is redundant right?
      Dev: Sometimes
      Mgmt: Do it with no downtime, everything is magically redundant, push your easy button dumbass

      Average uptime on servers: 2 years
      Time with company: less than one year

      Me: This clearly hasn't been done before, and I'm not so sure I should be testing our redundancy in the process
      Mgmt: Hey dumbass, a new partner goes live next week, don't fcsk it up

      Other reasons i have seen for stress and frustration: bad information system infrastructure. For example everybody handle backups himself.

      So true. Letting everyone do backups is the same as nobody doing backups. Every SA thinks they can do backups, but miss the entire point of it. It's not about 'doing' backups. That part is like putting parachutes on a plane or life preservers on a ship. The difference between a team of SAs and a backup admin is how they answer this one question.

      How safe are we?
      ----------------
      We have some parachutes
      I think our seats float
      We're not really flying that high
      Sharks don't like shallow water
      If you roll in the air, it'll soften the impact
      We can all swim
      Haven't lost anyone yet
      ------ vs. ------
      We have thirty passengers on board, sixty parachutes, forty life preservers
      and four life rafts
      a flare gun, a map, a swiss army knife, and Chuck Norris.
      You will not lose anyone

    15. Re:It's not so bad by drpt · · Score: 5, Funny

      I found one way to avoid abuse was to adopt a simple practice of sharpening your hunting knife at lunch

      --
      Proudly Butchering code for 20 years
    16. Re:It's not so bad by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If the network or all the computers are down then people can not get their work doen and big $$$ are lost very quickly. Deadlines can not be changed nor can customers waiting for their services or products.

      I.T. needs to sell themselves more and put stability as a #1 priority. Alot of times employers are cheap or expect everything to be always perfect.

      Ask them how much money do they lose if they can't complete something for a customer because they didn't want to pay for a redundant server?

      People are clueless but other professions can convince more people about their importance and role within hte organization.

    17. Re:It's not so bad by Larryish · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Funny you should say that.

      Back in the late 90's I was doing some side work in vulnerability testing and a client actually asked me if there was some sort of "program that you use where you can just click a button and hack into somebody's computer".

      When I started to explain the actual process of analyzing a network from the outside, he lost interest.

      No idea why.

    18. Re:It's not so bad by Seraphim1982 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unless "chronically unemployed" means "to lazy to look for a job", they are counted by the goverment.

      The 7.2% US unemployment rate counts anyone who wasn't employed, could work, and tried to find a job.

    19. Re:It's not so bad by gunnk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OK, I'm a sysadmin, and I have to say that my personal experience has been that *most* of the best sysadmins don't come from comp sci.

      That's not a crack on CS, by the way, it's just a different kind of training, and there ARE great sysadmins with a CS degree.

      The best sysadmins I encounter have a background in one of many hard sciences and a liberal dose of research training -- I think it fosters good problem solving.

      Your guy is a statistical outlier -- they happen, but they are NOT common. If you want to be one of the best, your chances are definitely better with a good deal of challenging coursework -- in whatever field -- than without. CS works fine, but CS doesn't make you a good sysadmin any more than any other tough field.

      --
      Life is short: void the warranty.
    20. Re:It's not so bad by Money+for+Nothin' · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is true. However, this culture is based (I have learned from an HR professional) on the flawed HR assumption that a salaried person is in control of their own hours, is capable of planning their own work, and so forth. It originally imagined that such professionals might work less than 40 hours/week if they were good enough.

      This is not reality: 40 hours/week is the minimum, assuming you and your co-workers are perfect and management doesn't feel like giving you extra work to do in your spare time for free.

      Hence, the fact is that labor laws need to be aggressively changed to deal with this flawed, inaccurate culture. For a variety of reasons (but mainly that he is too gutless), I sincerely doubt "Mr. Change" himself, Barack Obama, is going to do a damn thing about it.

      People in developed nations live in economies that can be described to varying degrees as "capitalist" (capitalist-enough, at least, to use a price system) -- so why are the white-collar professionals in these economies (most-notoriously those of us in the U.S., though I'm biased here) giving away their time for no extra pay?

      That is, why are we working for free? Isn't that what communists do, "for the good of the collective" (or "the good of the firm", which is a form of collective)? Out of the greedy desire to get more for less, that is what businesspeople demand of us...

      (Yes, as a salaried consultant, I work lots of unpaid overtime, with the promise of rapid title and salary increases and corporate ladder-climbing. Ultimately, I enjoy my work, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like my free time back.)

    21. Re:It's not so bad by gunnk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As I said in a previous post, I'm a sysadmin.

      I almost always clock over 40 hours PLUS the off-hours time I spend working in my head on problems at work.

      My wife caught me logging on a couple of weeks ago at three in the morning -- I just REALLY wanted to check ONE MORE LITTLE THING.

      My boss doesn't worry about giving me work -- he worries about keeping people out of my hair so I can be more productive.

      Being a sysadmin is DEMANDING, HARD and often THANKLESS. You either love it and live it -- or you're better off going elsewhere. There's great money to be made if you go the distance, but that's not going to be enough if you don't love this job.

      Thankfully, I DO love this work! The stats in the article about hours worked and losing sleep -- I was REALLY surprised the numbers were that low. It's all worth it, though, when you do the impossible -- even if very few people at your office realize it.

      --
      Life is short: void the warranty.
    22. Re:It's not so bad by Hyppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Most IT "professionals" are only extended the ass end of that deal, not the sweet yearly salary part.

    23. Re:It's not so bad by serialband · · Score: 2, Informative

      He sounds like an ass for bragging and that's why you looked down on him.

      I've also seen too many CS degrees holders that are just utter failures as programmers. They were following the money trail and joined the CS major to chase the money during the boom. They learned how to take and pass tests but have no real skills or inclination to do CS work. The degree just indicates that you've pased the necessary tests and gets your foot in the door. A degree does not necessarily imply any skill. The crash culled a bunch of them, but there are still too many people joining CS with no computer knowledge prior to entering CS.

    24. Re:It's not so bad by serialband · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm one of the few Computer Engineering majors who work as a sysadmin. Of course, I started in Civil Engineering, and switched so it partly matches your experience. I ended up being sysadmin when the sole sysadmin in my startup quit. I was programming and knew hardware inside out. I ended up doing customer support, server installs and integration, sysadmin, and programming, until I trained some backup admins and I found another job elsewhere as only a sysadmin. Jack-of-all-trades at a startup is fun for only a very short while.

      Most of my current sysadmin co-workers came from BioChem or something similar. A few were CS majors but never graduated. They found jobs as sysadmins part time, then full time and never bothered to complete their degree. One guy just has a semester's worth of classes left to go. Honestly, we have far too many sysadmins here. A good culling of 10%-20% might be good. I've already reduce my workload with a bunch of new scripts and made one subordinate unnecessary if I tell someone about it.

      The best sysadmins tend to have gone to a real university. They don't necessarily have to finish school with a degree, but they do know how to do critical thinking and keep up with changes in both hardware and software. Most importantly, they've also learned to script and to plan for contingencies. Sysadmins who aren't from scientific or engineering backgrounds tend to take longer to learn to script and end up doing more tedium until they learn scripting shortcuts from those of us that have programmed before. Scripters/Programmers get more things done and still have more free time while not getting abused and overloaded with work. I get things done quickly and serve my "customers", which is what the rest of the company really are. I also don't take any ridiculous crap from people by laying down the law about what's acceptible and what's not. There's no room for abuse of any employee, even from a CEO.

      I'm guessing the abused admins aren't quite as capable (e.g. most Non science/engineering/CS or most MCSE certificate only types with no real degrees) and/or aren't capable at standing up for themselves(e.g. nerds types in high school, outcast types, low self esteem, etc...). If I've done my job correctly, I don't get abused and never have been. I also don't take abuse from 1d10t users.

    25. Re:It's not so bad by lanswitch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      do you really expect others to work more than 40 hours/week, even if their contract is for 40? i love my job, but i also have a life. that's why my contract is 36 hours a week. if there's a good reason then i don't mind working more for a while, but it should not be structural.
      usually, overtime is the consequence of bad planning or insufficient resources.

    26. Re:It's not so bad by skegg · · Score: 2, Interesting
      In today's Australian Financial Review I saw a graph that showed that since 2001:
      • Average Weekly Earnings increased by ~40%
      • CEO remuneration increased by ~220%

      Presumably this is the free market at work. But is it fair?

      Boards of Directors effectively set their own pay ... I don't set my own. If I could, I assure you my pay would have increased by at least 220% since 2001 !!

      Now, admittedly your comment referred specifically to 'hours worked' and 'government involvement'. However, speaking more towards our work culture:

      labor laws need to be aggressively changed to deal with this flawed, inaccurate culture

      I'm all for government intervention. (And not just to address pay inequalities.)

    27. Re:It's not so bad by turgid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What I can't understand is how these long-hours heroes can claim honestly that their mind is still functioning at full capacity after all that time.

      Some people claim long hours when actually they are chatterboxes - standing around at the water cooler talking nonsense or spouting verbal diarrhea on the phone or on meetings and having to come in on Saturday to finish their work.

      I am contracted to do 7.5 hour days, 5 days a week. I have worked genuine very insane hours in the past (14 hours for 8 weeks) and it nearly killed me. It was a real struggle after about 9 hours to keep my brain focused on the task.

      I've also worked at an industrial site where they limited the number of hours you could work in a certain period, because the manager's best friend had been a hero once and worked something stupid like 23 hours non-stop and got himself killed driving home when he fell asleep.

      Having to work long hours is a failure in the system. If it's not you, it's management's failure to plan or having unrealistic expectations from the staff. It's down right inhumane and uncivilised.

      It produces ill, bitter and twisted people, poor quality work, and poor company performance.

    28. Re:It's not so bad by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Look at it this way: if every software and computer "engineer" in the world evaporated tomorrow, "real" engineers would still be able to build stuff useful to people. If the reverse happened, it'd be uh-oh time on an extremely large scale.

      Yeah, but do you know what would really kill us, and I mean that literally ? Truck drivers. No trucks -> no efficient enough way to resupply shops -> mass starvation.

      Games of one-upmanship area really, really, really stupid.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    29. Re:It's not so bad by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't know. I do think a person needs a time to unwind, but at every place I've worked I've tested the water to see if it'd be OK for me to work 3 12-hour or 4 10-hour shifts a week. I find I tend to "zone in" on programs after about 5 hours of concentration and things start to fall into place with a great deal of rapidity; of course, that means that I'm just starting to get productive when it's time to go home. Nobody ever bought it, but oh well.

      The failure in most of these cases (me, being one of those small shop, do-it-all sysadmins) is that I was being tasked with tech support at the same time as sysadmin tasks. That kind of puts a crimp in a person's ability to concentrate on problems, and likely wasted an hour or two a day simply due to distraction and having to get back to the previous task once a quick tech support task were to be completed.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
  2. In another news by Yvan256 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The number of BOFH increased significantly in 2008.

    1. Re:In another news by BSAtHome · · Score: 4, Funny

      I actually think that the absolute number of BOFHs is constant. They are wilfully more exposed now by the survey. And, as all good BOFHs will do, is make sure that the survey is tainted by a --clickety-click-- unfortunate mishap caused by the surveyor. There is nothing more rewarding than a good survey beating.

    2. Re:In another news by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 3, Informative

      Time to order another tape safe...

      --
      Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
    3. Re:In another news by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 3, Funny

      I know my sleepless nights were caused by building the data center behind the fake wall in the server room so that I could set up a shell business to handle all of my company's IT outsourcing needs.

      --
      The game.
  3. Obviously... by HerculesMO · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These 'small and midsize' businesses don't have the staff to hire a DBA, a sysadmin, a helpdesk guy -- you're it. You're the jack of all trades.

    It's rather logical to think you're going to get abused, because the same person who is fixing SQL queries is now known to be the helpdesk guy, and unfortunately can't keep up with the work.

    That said, I've been there. And working 80 hour weeks, I had enough, and moved to a large, massive corporation with good job deliniation. Not only do I learn more because I have the time, I work 40 hours a week (barely) and make far more money with better benefits.

    Just a reminder folks, work to live, don't live to work. There is no such thing as a 'dream' job, because at the end of the day you'll always want more, best to find a job that allows you to live your life to the fullest and provides you a good salary as a bonus :)

    Cheers and good luck to those out of work in '09, it's shaping up to be a tough year.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
    1. Re:Obviously... by moderatorrater · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I know people who love to work those 80 work weeks in exchange for the freedom to do updates on the live server whenever they wanted without going through 20 different hoops and having manager approval. For some people, the job is its own reward when they're able to set the terms. I'm not one of those people, of course, but they are out there and they get happiness out of the situation.

    2. Re:Obviously... by CrazyTalk · · Score: 2, Informative

      You obviously do not work at Microsoft, where (depending on your department) 40 hours means you just finished Tuesday. Point is, larger company does not always translate into longer hours (and vice-versa) - it depends on the corporate culture.

    3. Re:Obviously... by religious+freak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed. I talk to IT folks that work at small companies, and I just don't understand why anybody would work in a small company. (Though I've got to say, I'm glad they do, otherwise I'd have a lot more competition)

      I have a good, stable job with the occasional overtime, plenty of opportunity to grow, great benefits and good pay. I talk to those that work in small companies, and it's exactly the opposite.

      --
      If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
    4. Re:Obviously... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've taken a lot of abuse as an IT employee. I worked 60 hour weeks without overtime pay. I did whatever I was asked to do. And I never quit. But I did start pointing out (in very diplomatic terms) that I was being abused. At which point I was fired.

      It'd be nice to end this story by pointing out how much happier I am now. But that's hard to say when I'm working part-time at a job I was qualified to do 20 years ago, because that's the best replacement job I can find. It's little wonder that workers are abused when the employers hold all the cards.

    5. Re:Obviously... by CrazyTalk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are right - they hardly make any money at all ;-)

    6. Re:Obviously... by TheMCP · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've worked in IT, and been an IT manager, in both small and large organizations. My experience is, both types of organizations are abusive to their people, sometimes in different ways. The small organizations tend to overwork their people, paying for inadequate numbers of people but expecting them to provide world-class service as if they're a Fortune 500 corporation. The big organizations tend to turn into Dilbert-land, with pointy-haired bosses torturing everyone with the stupid management paradigm du jour and occasionally firing random people as scapegoats for the boss's failures.

      Regardless, I don't think it much matters what size company you work IT in; my experience is that, while the article claims about 25% of IT workers are treated abusively, reality is more like close to 100% of IT workers are treated abusively.

    7. Re:Obviously... by Wildclaw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because working longer has rapidly diminishing returns, even going negative after a certain point. If you wondering how returns can go negative, it is pretty simply. Stress, exhaustion and simply not caring are negative symptoms that appear with longer work hours or "hostile" environments.

    8. Re:Obviously... by Miguelito · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My first computer related job (early 90's) was at a small company (maybe 40 people in the office) and I really liked it. This was long before I was anything close to a real sysadmin, but I was basically the only "computer guy" (not really even IT, hell "IT" wasn't a term yet IIRC). I'd lean to the culture being the more imprtant factor then size.

      The pluses a smaller place can have if it has the right culture and atmosphere is that you're more like a family and much better communication around the place.

      Unfortunately, the place I worked at had really hard times after I was there for about 6 months and a chunk of us were let go.

      Now I work in a huge company, but we still have a good culture (in general). I've been here for more then a decade and while there have been times where I was frustrated about stuff, I've been happy overall. Compensation and benefits have been great, and I've worked hard to get my base salary and such up there.

      I did go through a long period (first 7-8 years) busting my ass, working WAY more time then I really needed to, but finally realized that it was too much to take anymore and have learned to put things down and get back to them later. I give myself more personal time, work from home more to break up stressful times, etc. I've earned the respect and trust of my peers and bosses in order to be able to do this.

      Back to the main article's point.. I looked at TFA and even the PDF (holy crap did it look like crap in acroread on this linux box) and see no details at all. Without them, I can only assume this is mostly just people whining about stress (vs doing something about it) and about how IT can be in general. If they don't like it, they should get out now. As for real physical abuse.. that's illegal anyway, report it.

      --
      - My favorite error message: xscreensaver, running on an old Sparc 5 w/ 8bit color: bsod: Couldn't allocate color Blue
    9. Re:Obviously... by Kidbro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I talk to IT folks that work at small companies, and I just don't understand why anybody would work in a small company.

      I work for a small company because when my CEO behaves like a complete fucktard, I can actually walk straight into his office and tell him that... he's behaving like a complete fucktard.
      I used to work for a company with 120k employees. I could not do that, and it was frustrating as hell.

      There are loads of other benefits/freedoms in similar vein.

    10. Re:Obviously... by dindi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      + one .... agreed

      have your nuts drop and stand up.

      I quit from places where I was the 5-in-1 person and that was a chaos even though i gave them a 1 month notice. All the "ajjajj what do we do" calls....

      Here is an other tip: learn some programming and take a programmer's job.

      I program and that is a lot better schedule most of the time. I worked all holidays though because of an asshole colleague, but at least in Costa Rica that means double pay......

      If they need to call you: demand a higher hourly late for every call..... charged 30 or 60 minute minimums.

      They will do one of the other (if you are valuable)

      1. pay you after the calls
      2. hire someone else to take the calls, and call you only in emergencies (#1).....

      If you are not valuable they hire an other idiot and fire you. In that case do not answer the phone for the "OMG what do we do" call..

    11. Re:Obviously... by Unoti · · Score: 3, Interesting

      All very true. But what many IT people fail to see: the converse is also true. Many IT workers work in a dumb way that leads to more and more work. In more than one company I've worked, I've had a person leave, then I absorb their job, largely automate it/make most of the work go away and not really increase my workload. Then someone else leaves, and I repeat that process. One company I worked at, I absorbed/automated the jobs of 5 other people.

      For example, one person did a lot of custom reports, worked that job full time 40 hours a week. When she left, I absorbed her job, designed and implemented 5 key reporting views, then trained the users how to do ad-hoc reporting on those views using Oracle Discoverer. Poof, all that was left of what she used to spend 40 hours a week on is 15 minutes a month of answering questions. A lot of IT workers make more work for themselves than is really necessary.

    12. Re:Obviously... by tverbeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've done tech work in organizations of a few sizes, and found the bigger tech departents increasingly frustrating to work in. The company is going to get a _____, and that sounds like a fun project to work on, but that falls under the _____ group, so you don't get to. And they're going to replace the _____ with some new gear, but you aren't on the committee deciding what to get, so you have to live with whatever they pick.... And so on. Metaphors involving small cogs and big machines come to mind.

      On the other hand, I've been part of some tech departments of just a few people, and there's been so much more opportunity to learn and grow. Sure, it means you get stuck doing grunt work like crawling under desks and changing toner cartridges, but a job where I get to design and build the web site, select and install the mail system, configure the standard user desktop settings, plan and spec out the server room, write the training materials and teach the users, map out the IP addressing scheme and assign names under DNS, diagnose and repair workstation problems, implement the backup strategy ... what a great job description! Granted, it's not all sunshine and roses, and I could go on at length about the down side of working in a small shop. It depends a lot on finding the right (small) group of people to work with. But for someone who considers "jack of all trades" just a pejorative term for "renaissance man", it can be a great environment to work in.

      (And if there's anybody in West Michigan who thinks they could use (not abuse) someone like that, drop me a line.)

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    13. Re:Obviously... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I did this one time 20 years ago.

      They gave me 4 hours off on a friday after working 72+ hour weeks for 6 weeks (and making ME go in for a full day sunday but not the female and then making ME come in for the early meeting monday- so no slack because I had to work sunday when it was "too dangerous for a girl to work alone" even tho she got the same pay).

      Since then I've gotten down the art of "graceful failure".

      You maintain a great attitude, but simply can't manage to meet unreasonable demands.

      Most of the reason people are fired is because some dipshit above you doesn't like your attitude.

      Extremely competent assholes are fired left and right, being just ever so mildly incompetent means they choose to give the shitty important job to one of the other guys-- and even got me booted up into management with more pay and unbelievable amounts of freedom.

      You have to be able to distinguish between *real* emergencies and successfully be heroic on a couple up front but if the real reason for the problem is
      1) insufficient funding.
      2) insufficient staffing.
      3) unbelievably stupid arbitrary schedule some shithead upstairs set to make an arbitrary date on the calendar because "we always MEET our commitments!!!!" (but it is YOU not HIM or HER that is working saturday morning at 5am to meet the shitty deadline- he or she is yukking it up having drinks with clients and getting a big bonus after she or he "met the deadline".

      Then let it fall.

      I have seen extremely competent people who are honest get fired (or worse- put in an office doing *nothing* -- i.e. the "white room" punishment which gets you to quit so you don't get unemployment benefits).
      Screw them- especially when you are underpaid and the last person left.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  4. name of the game, sucka. by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Like the post office or public education...it never stops.

    Unlike those examples, it never pauses. Face it guys...you are babysitting. Networks, servers, desktops, whatever... IT is babysitting. And this baby always needs sitting....

    Instead of quitting in an "employers market"... try something like Gracie Jiu Jitsu... choking a motherfucker out makes me feel better after a day of IT BS.

    On the bright side, we'll all be up shit creek when we use all the fossil fuels. At least your servers won't need babysitting anymore.

    1. Re:name of the game, sucka. by Foofoobar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Correction. System administration is baby sitting. Development is not. Unless you are doing maintenance of legacy systems in which case you are not a baby sitter, you are more a wet nurse.

      --
      This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
    2. Re:name of the game, sucka. by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I never considered IT to include Development/Programming. Most Universities seem to agree, as there are CS programs and CIT/CIS programs.

      The Dev's are a step above the IT guys, IMHO. I am saying this as an IT guy, btw.

    3. Re:name of the game, sucka. by mr_mischief · · Score: 2, Informative

      CIT/CIS/MIS can do development. It's just day-to-day business development rather than theory and simulation stuff. CS in many schools is actually a theoretical mathematics degree with some time learning the syntax to run the math on a computer.

    4. Re:name of the game, sucka. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Correction. System administration is baby sitting. Development is not. Unless you are doing maintenance of legacy systems in which case you are not a baby sitter, you are more a wet nurse.

      Yeah, a wet nurse to a viper.

    5. Re:name of the game, sucka. by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      System administration is baby sitting. Development is not. Unless you are doing maintenance...

      The large majority of all development is maintenance.

  5. Abuse. by Samschnooks · · Score: 3, Funny

    "But it is hugely disappointing that, all too often, this has led to them being verbally or even physically abused.

    They fired me! They would spank me, and would respond with "Faster! Harder! Tell me how I've been a BAD BOY! Tell me that I'm a filthy little whore!"

    That's when they discovered that I was a masochistic pervert and canned me.

  6. Part of the problem is Ego. by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While it is not the full problem. But the common Ego among IT workers exasperates the problem.
    The I am smarter then everyone tone, you are stupid because you don't know to run the app nested in the menus of the start button. Without me this company will collapse. Type of ego.

    A lot of the time working those extra hours are voluntary, but because you think it the collaps without you, you do the extra hours.

    The I'm smarter then you, makes sure your boss doesn't feel bad about letting you go, or pushing you that much more.

    We don't treat our selfs and others like humans, so why do expect other to treat us so.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm sorry, but I am smarter than most of the people I work with. Because not only do I know how to do my job, I often times have to tell them how to do THEIR job. I have to know how to do their jobs, well enough to tell them how computers help them in their job, and to help them learn how to use computers to do their jobs.

      I may not know all the details, and peculiarities of their job, but I know what their job is, and how to do it.

      I'm fully convinced that I could actually "do" their job (well, most peoples jobs), should they get hit by a car. Or at least do a passable job of faking it (which I'm also convinced that many of them do anyway).

      And that isn't ego either. I don't want to do their job. I would hate it. And often times, pays a lot less than what I make.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    2. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      When I first started working in IT 15 years ago, I felt the same way that you do. IT People can often walk around with a superior attitude. I was determined to be the exception.

      I tried to be patient as I explained for the 10th time to a user how to login to their computer and why passwords were necessary. I tried to be helpful when users told me they had lost their documents but, couldn't remember what they named them, when they saved them, which application they used to create the documents or even a few words or phrases within the document. I considered it part of the job when I had to work 110 hour weeks for the Y2K death march because management would not purchase the software upgrades that were requested in February until late November. Of course, it would have been nice if one of the business managers that depended on the systems had checked to see if we had food or needed any assistance.

      I tried to take it in stride when year after year, all training money was cut from the budget. I had to buy my own study materials and train myself at nights, weekends, holidays and vacations, neglecting my family the whole time. It was OK because I was part of a team. Every vacation that I have had for the last 15 years, I've been called and had to spend hours on the phone helping someone with a computer problem no matter how self-inflicted. I've been repeatedly called by "frequent flyers" at 3am to unlock someone's account because they can't be bothered to remember the password. I've had superiors bring their home computers into the office for me to fix as a "favor." So why is it that when they have the office Christmas party, I'm not invited? When problems occur in other people's area, it's said "Don't call them, they are on vacation, it can wait." The equipment I use is the discards from other departments.

      Why do I have an attitude? I may have stayed up late every night for the last 4 months teaching my self how to support the newest technology that management is demanding, only to be verbally abused by the administrative assistant that is told not stream media over the Internet because it uses up all of the bandwidth. Finally the truth has hit me. The BOFH attitude is a response to the treatment by the users and management.

      This type of treatment causes one of three responses. You either become down trodden from the abuse, you become a scowling vicious dog, or you leave. You can either be a victim or refuse to be victimized. I chose the latter. I've joined local professional associations, added to my skills, and began heavily networking. Despite this crazy economy, I have continued to generate job leads and obtain interviews. I have a very serious prospect at the moment and expect to leave within the next few weeks.

    3. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by SoupGuru · · Score: 4, Funny

      I watch a lot of hockey and I know pretty much everything the players are supposed to do. I could just step right in on an NHL team and fill in. I'm that awesome.

      --
      What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    4. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by apoc.famine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      To expand on this, a large percentage of the decent-to-amazing IT workers are smarter than their co-workers. All businesses need worker-ants. Bodies to answer phones, tally numbers, clean the offices, and interface with customers and higher-ups in the company.

      None of these jobs explicitly requires intelligence. None of them require the ability to problem-solve, to creatively find solutions to seemingly impossible problems, to make things do things they aren't meant to do.

      While I only spent a few years in IT, before moving into the job-security and summers-off of education, I realized this quite well. I also had co-workers who realized this, and would put in obscene hours "keeping the company afloat". I did not. Why? Because while I was smarter than a lot of my co-workers, I also realized that I would see NO benefit from busting my ass doing over-time work. There would be no promotion, no additional job security, no additional pay, no accolades from the higher-ups in the business.

      I was pretty glad that this had been my attitude when lay-offs came, because they were pointy-haired-boss style. Our corporate overlord did random lay-offs. RANDOM! Not need-based, not performance-based, not cost-benefit-analysis-based. RANDOM! People who had been working there 2 weeks to 15 years got laid off in a mass purging, at RANDOM! Had I been busting my ass up until I got that pink slip, I would have been pissed. As were a couple of the account executives who had been putting in serious OT to save "important" accounts.

      IT gets shat upon because IT lets it happen. Mix Ego with poor social skills, no backbone, and a fear of the uncertain, and it's all but certain that you'll get trod upon.

      Saying "Fuck NO!" is as likely to get you fired/laid off as not saying anything at all. And it's far more satisfying.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    5. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by cstdenis · · Score: 4, Funny

      I know I could skate around and not score any goals too. Seems to work for a lot of them.

      --
      1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.
    6. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by Arterion · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow, I don't know why you're taking so much heat. What you're saying is exactly true. I mean, really, a good developer is going to have to know the ins and outs of all the business rules and procedures before he can write or maintain software that implements those rules.

      Sure, he may not know that Sandy in accounting is touchy about people using her stapler, but he knows how to process the return requests she needs. What he doesn't know is the human element of the job. Sure, in a perfect world, that would be an issue, but let's face it: office politics are just as critical to getting work done as the processes you use to do them.

      I work for a small company, and I HAVE been called on before to do some *CRITICAL* thing that no one else there knew how to do, because people were out sick or whatever. And when someone new comes in, I usually end up having to train them, because no one else knows how to do every job here. I get, "hey, help us figure out what's going on with this order" at least once a week. All the information is in the software, too, they just don't know how to use it, and they forget things they don't use on a regular basis. I've had to show some features to my boss at least five times, because each time she's forgotten it's there.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    7. Re:Part of the problem is Ego. by angrygretchen · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree, it has more to do with the nature of the job making IT people arrogant asses. If you are working in IT for a mid-sized company, you are probably coming in contact with a lot more people than in most other professions. Most of these people are faceless, being either behind a phone or an email, so they appear less like actual people and more like "users". These users exhibit all multitudes of behavior, from embarrassed & apologetic to rude & impatient. They are solely calling you to do something for them, while expecting to give nothing back, other than maybe a quick 'thanks, you are teh bomb, blah blah'. Sometimes they ask you to do something trivial, or something impossible (with your limited resources and time).

      Frankly these users are technically less competent than you. They are usually clueless to the effort involved in carrying out the requested task, and completely oblivious of time constraints that you may have due to other job responsibilities/tasks. You may perform a minor miracle and no one will understand why it was a miracle. For every stupid question you answer, you are asked a dozen more stupid questions. No amount of hand holding will ever make the "users" any smarter. Even the most affable-natured IT person is worn thin by the constant barrage of requests, especially ones coming from irate users. In the end, you learn that no amount of effort is ever going to make the users happy, so you learn to adapt. You get of your ass and only make an effort when the requests comes from the big bosses or those that you report to. For all other users you adopt a policy of minimal support. If it is not an emergency, you find a way so you do the least amount of work. The longer you are at the job, the better you become at this. And so you become an arrogant ass (in the eyes of the users).

      So how to get IT people to work for you? You can get the big bosses to light a fire under their ass, and they will work for you, admittedly grudgingly. Or you can find a way to differentiate yourself from the other faceless users. Be extra nice, let them know that you are a real person by showing your face. Always thank them, and let them know that you value their time, even if you think its their job to be helping you. Of course you may do all this and get nowhere. In that case go back to tip #1.

      And yes, I've done my bit in IT.

  7. Backups aren't all they're cut out to be by TubeSteak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And at the very end of TFA:
    "Ten per cent of the companies surveyed said they had lost critical data through backup tape failures."

    Is it just me, or does 10% seem like a huge loss rate?
    /Test your backup

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  8. Windows IT workers to get the shaft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yeah I'm talking to you. The wannabe computer programmer who thinks they are good at computers because they can click around the computer enough times and find the reboot button and 'fix' an inherently flawed windows system. You think you're cool because you can pirate photoshop but not know anything about it, get Microsoft Office for free but have the literacy of a 1st grader when writing a paper, and get a copy of Norton Anti-virus because your inherently flawed system is useless without Administrative privileges. Get a clue, you are not smart, you are just a corporate sheep for a company that will bury you if you ever tried to write any software that did anything remotely useful. You are a clickaround and all you know is your ugly gray existence that is Windows.

    Want the source code to windows vista?

    head -n 1000000 /dev/random > Windows.com

    1. Re:Windows IT workers to get the shaft by kbrasee · · Score: 2, Funny

      Error: post not well-formed, missing closing tag.

  9. Re:That sucks but... by mikael_j · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And why do doctors and lawyers "put up" with working lots of overtime? Could it perhaps be because it's more of a choice and because they actually get some serious compensation for it? I seem to remember some article a while back about a doctor who was found to have endangered his patients by working way way too much, and his reason was summed up as "I wanted to buy a new boat"...

    /Mikael

    --
    Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
  10. The Book by pondermaster · · Score: 3, Funny

    The IT manager Book of Abuse:

    * cat-5 strangulation
    * bayesian water torture
    * physical loopback devices
    * burning and branding
    * PROFIT!

  11. Stress, eh? by Chabo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The biggest cause of stress among IT staff is problems arising from operational day-to-day tasks

    In other news, doctors get stressed by having to do clinicals, and retail workers get stressed out by daily customers.

    --
    Convert FLACs to a portable format with FlacSquisher
  12. Serious cause of IT stress by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Managers who expect that data will never be lost, yet are unwilling to authorize equipment purchase and hours required to install and maintain a proper backup system.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    1. Re:Serious cause of IT stress by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But the managers have a hard time asking for the purchase of a backup infrastructure too because it does not bring in direct revenues.
      The other day management was screaming about the number of servers we have and demanding to know what the function of each and every one was. They put a freeze on buying new equipment (but not a freeze on the projects moving forward which require new equipment). IT suggested that we do virtual machines on existing hardware, but management gave a flat-out no on VM. Management must have discovered some immunity to paradox.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  13. I am glad I work with UNIX systems. by incubuz1980 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1 to troll in 2 seconds...

    Honestly I think this acceptance of things going wrong and "thats just the way IT is" belongs in the Windows world.

    I have personally quit 2 jobs in the past because I was asked to work with Microsoft products.

    User friendly and sysadmin friendly are two different things.

    1. Re:I am glad I work with UNIX systems. by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 5, Funny

      I have personally quit 2 jobs in the past because I was asked to work with Microsoft products.

      If that's your idea of abuse, the waaahmbulance is definitely coming to pick you up.

    2. Re:I am glad I work with UNIX systems. by value_added · · Score: 4, Informative

      If that's your idea of abuse, the waaahmbulance is definitely coming to pick you up.

      Clearly you've never managed Exchange servers. Or Windows desktops, for that matter.

    3. Re:I am glad I work with UNIX systems. by Kawahee · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Clearly you've never managed Exchange servers. Or Windows desktops, for that matter.

      It's really not that hard. Granted, Exchange is a bit of a beast to install and manage initially, but once everything is set up and the other servers know each other it works pretty smoothy. Exchange 2007 has some pretty cool features like integration with PABX phone systems that you can't get anywhere else.

      As far as Windows desktops go, group policy objects with Windows XP SP2 (or even SP1) and later works out pretty well. For PCs off the domain it gets a little bit tricky for "hard" problems like virus infections, but with a copy of VNC and the end user restarting the PC over the phone when VNC dies you can generally nut out the worst virus infection.

      All up it scales pretty well, we have 6,000 PCs (most on a domain, a handful of laptops and others not), a similar number of mailboxes and we manage IT1 (Helpdesk) stuff with 6 people and IT2 (Systems) with 5.

      I've also heard horror stories of the number of Active Directory objects companies like Rio Tinto and BHP Billiton have, and it's about 1 million AD user objects across 500 domain controllers with a lot of administration managed automatically by group policy.

      FYI - 1 million across 500 DC's is anecdotal. I can't confirm this.

      --
      I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
  14. O really by ezwip · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sorry to troll but this is from the heart. I'm not that big but I will straight whoop that ass if someone attempts to phsically abuse me in the workplace. Maybe I'll lose, and if I do I'll be back to jack up your car.

    --
    "I guess I'm gonna fade into Bolivian."
    1. Re:O really by taustin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My brother started his own business with the settlement money he got after a coworker attacked him.

  15. I got out of IT and into a new career by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hijack supertankers for ransom. It's fun and pays really well! Back in college, I never would have guessed those Somali language courses would end up being so useful.

  16. write-only backups by dltaylor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While I don't condone abusing the incompetent, we have been doing our own source code repository backups in engineering, since IT admitted that they cannot recover the repository from backups. We can't recover the repository either, since IT "owns" it, nor are we permitted to use an alternative, but we do incremental and full backups regularly of a "latest" sandbox, and at each release tag, so we can reconstruct the data set.

    We have a Linux development environment, but those systems are hobbled by a Windows-centric IT shop that has firewalls blocking access to Google from non-Windows systems and Linux-centric forums everywhere.

    This level of incompetence is typical of IT at many small-to-medium (once, even large) places I have worked. Mordac(s), the preventer(s) of information services, work(s) at too many places, and I wouldn't miss them if they all quit and got jobs where they could be useful.

  17. I work in IT by Xerolooper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yes I work in IT I think TFA was referring more to the personality type that migrates towards the IT jobs being nerds. Thus being nerds IT types tend to take abuse rather than standing up for themselves. If someone is being abusive they are probably just stressed out themselves. If it happens where I work I just quietly walk away and they are usually falling over themselves to apologize later(so I will come back and fix their computer). This is not because of some god complex. It is because I treat everyone in our diverse workplace with respect. So I demand it in return. BTW I have thick skin so it takes a lot for me to walk away but I will.

    --
    "The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget." -Thomas Szasz
  18. Severe lack of respect for IT by topham · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is a severe lack of respect for IT; a number of comments in here are unexpectedly examples of it.
    IT work can be easy. IT work can be hard. IT is generally very time consuming; whether it be easy, or difficult.

    I've done the gauntlet, from network drops, router configurations, firewalls, server installs, application suites, application development, end user training, requirements gathering. In the end the biggest problem is that everyone seems to think everything takes only about 10% of the time it actually takes. They see that one instance when everything goes right and decided that it must always be that fast and easy. It seldom is.

  19. Re:My pu55y aches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    God complex? You must be in a small shop where the "experts" always say "I'll do it" instead of explaining to the new hire how things work, which helps them keep their "know it all, do it all" facade intact. Most large shops have people who are more willing to help others by explaining how things work, DON'T copy corporate secrets to their USB drives, and try to make things easier for everyone. Emotional? Sure. Stress makes people want to become emotional. Whiny? maybe on some message boards, but most of the IT people I work with are stoic, in person. If ANYONE reads another employees mail, unless directed by corporate security or HR, will be fired if caught. I imagine most other large businesses have similar policies.

  20. I bet you are! by Samschnooks · · Score: 5, Funny

    As someone who migrated away from a direct IT job to an HR job that is tangentially IT related,...

    All the babes work in HR!

    1. Re:I bet you are! by Hogwash+McFly · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, but they have boyfriends or husbands.

      *sigh*

      --
      Mother, do you think they'll like this sig?
    2. Re:I bet you are! by TheTyrannyOfForcedRe · · Score: 5, Funny

      A number of scientific studies have found that 30 to 50 percent of women cheat.

      You're welcome!

      --
      "Liechtenstein is the world's largest producer of sausage casings, potassium storage units, and false teeth."
    3. Re:I bet you are! by vvaduva · · Score: 2, Funny

      You must be the first geek to think that your geek talents do not trump husband/boyfriend.

    4. Re:I bet you are! by iamhassi · · Score: 5, Funny

      "All the babes work in HR!"

      And being in HR, the "babes" know the sexual harassment policy word-for-word

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    5. Re:I bet you are! by SBFCOblivion · · Score: 5, Funny

      Rings don't plug holes.

    6. Re:I bet you are! by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And being in HR, the "babes" know the sexual harassment policy word-for-word

      Sure, until you get them next door to the bar an get a couple of drinks into them. Then ... not so much. A great many people present a different personality at work than away from work, and guess where the people who were partying when us geeks were studying ended up?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  21. Re:That sucks but... by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    some people forget that a good number of IT workers are exempt from over time pay.

  22. Re:That sucks but... by mr_mischief · · Score: 2, Informative

    The terminology tells how bad it used to be: "interns" used to not leave the building. "Residents" lived there but were allowed to leave during time off. "Attending" physicians actually lived elsewhere and came to the hospital. Those are not the conditions these days, but ask a resident you know how far it really is from the truth.

  23. definitely agree by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a computer science academic, and so our department at one point got the brilliant idea that they could save money by greatly reducing the IT staff. After all, computer scientists have PhDs in Computer Stuff, so can run all their own IT, right? It turns out not really---and even when they can, it'd be a full-time job to do so, and they already have other full-time jobs (like writing papers and research grants and teaching classes and supervising grad students).

    What's kept the whole thing running at all is that the reduced staff has two really excellent people who manage to pull things together, both of whom are much much better at their jobs than any numbers of CS PhDs would be at that job, because being a top-quality IT staff member and being a top-quality CS researcher just aren't the same job.

    I suppose the change has sort of increased the respect the IT people around here get though: you definitely notice all the stuff that used to Just Work after the IT staff gets canned.

  24. what burns me by nuclear_zealot · · Score: 3, Interesting

    TFA is pretty thin. IT people are stressed due to the... economy?
    Rant begins>
    What's driving me mad at work is dealing with buzz-word spouting idiots. They can barely spell "computer" but they'll come with requests that I perform some half-witted change to fix a problem that they created. (that, of course, won't work)
    If they could just summon the brains the come to me with a goal (i.e. we want the application to run faster) I could fix their problems. Instead, I'm not allowed to address the garbage they've created for themselves so they can avoid looking as clueless as they really are. And just forget about introducing new tech to make everyone's life easier. They'd have to learn something new. That makes me a bad guy, until we NEED that new tech, in which case I'm a slacker for not having already done it!
    And, no, I'm not perfect, but when I make a mistake I admit it and fix it. Meetings are a lot shorter when you say "yeah, that was my mistake. Sorry about that. I'll fix it" instead of blame-storming the issue for an hour or two of my life that I'll never get back! FUCK!!! FUCK!!! FUCK!!!
    So I guess I'm saying, it not the job, it's the people. In the end, it's way less stressful to lower yourself to their level and play the blame-game instead of trying to achieve something useful. Note: this drives you insane if you have a brain. Never forget:
    - no good deed goes unpunished
    - if you fix something it's your fault that it broke in the first place

    Anyway, that why I think about quitting 5 times a day. Unfortunetly, now is not the best time.

    /bias - Sysadmin in a medium-sized company/
    Note: there are some rare semi-competent to competent people out there who can at least partially do their job (whatever it is). They are no problem to deal with at all.

  25. Re:That sucks but... by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What I do in such situations is to record my unpaid hours, and then at the end of the year when the workload slows down, take off that number of hours. So I might get paid 40 hour salary, but only work 19 hours that final week before Christmas, due to the fact I had 21 hours of unpaid work back in August.

    BTW if you are getting paid $80,000 salary a year, but your dumb boss has you working 80 hours a week, that means you're only getting $20 an hour. You'd be better off becoming a factory worker or truck driver where you can earn $25-30 an hour, and the job is easier.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  26. Re:That sucks but... by mikael_j · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That most people I know who work in some form of medical profession or in various "legal" roles work overtime because they want extra disposable income while most people I know in IT work overtime because it's that or "You're incompetent and lazy".

    /Mikael

    --
    Greylisting is to SMTP as NAT is to IPv4
  27. The real issue? by DesertBlade · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How many of those IT people are not truly qualify to handle the positions they are in? While many IT people are extremely competent there are many, many who are not. Seen some IT people spends hours and hours trying to get something to work, the competent Joe IT fixes it in five minutes.

    "But I am MCSE certified! I know exactly how to do it."

    --
    Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
  28. Reactive vs. Proactive by hemp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I find a lot of folks in the IT trenches tend to be reactive rather than proactive.

    They seem to enjoy being the "goto" guy that saves the day by resurrecting the server with the melty motherboard and toasted power supply while hundreds of users anxiously sit by their desks in breathless anticipation. Merely, switching to a failover server would never be as rewarding.

    They regale in bragging to their co-workers and more importantly, their bosses about how many hours they spent rebuilding databases and applying emergency kernel patches at 3 am.

    Face it, what kind of attention do you get when your servers never fail? When you never lose a database?

    Nothing.

    --
    Skip ------ See the latest from http://www.anArchyFortWorth.com
    1. Re:Reactive vs. Proactive by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's what happens when you can't get the budget for a failover server - it costs too much money. Meanwhile, 50 people sitting on their thumbs for half a day is apparently free.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    2. Re:Reactive vs. Proactive by Klootzak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Face it, what kind of attention do you get when your servers never fail? When you never lose a database?

      Actually, you get asked to justify your existance in the company since "you never seem to be doing anything".

      There is nothing more professionally satisfying than having a company tell you they're replacing you with a (generally Indian) Outsourcing firm (having been advised to do so by HR), for 2 reasons:

      1. Things have been going so well they don't think they have any IT "problems" to fix.
      2. They will be calling you (or if they're completely without humility, another firm) once they realise how bad things can be without someone who knows what their doing at the helm.

      Good IT people "fix" problems. Great IT people prevent them from happening at the first place.

      I think the biggest reason most IT people are abused is because they care too much.
      When I spoke to a Psychiatrist how he dealt with having everyone tell him their personal problems his response was "I only care when I'm being paid for it".

      Probably the best piece of advice I've heard from someone in the Mental Health industry.

      --
      A Man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties -- Albert Einstein
    3. Re:Reactive vs. Proactive by dbIII · · Score: 2

      They regale in bragging to their co-workers and more importantly, their bosses about how many hours they spent rebuilding databases and applying emergency kernel patches at 3 am.

      It's a survival tactic. If people don't know they just see you as the lazy loser that wanders in looking sleepy at 11am and they'll still remember that a year later when it's time to downsize. It may not be enough if only your immediate boss knows.

      Also you usually need a bit of budget flexability to be proactive and it consumes a bit of time if you are short staffed. Frequent upgrades that leave spare old machines help a lot - if someones PC dies you can give them something and they can still get stuff done - at least if you are not a windows shop where you would also have to budget for a heap of extra software licences just in case and you have stupidity like everyone's email only being stored locally.

      As for the joy shown for solving an out of the ordinary problem - it's human nature. The ideal would be to fix that problem while a solid workaroud is in place, but the picture painted of a lot of people waiting around for one person to fix the problems happens every now and again for a variety of reasons. If it's not a rare occurance then there is a lot of room for improvement.

  29. Re:Physical abuse? by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If someone did that to me, my first call would be the police, and my second call would be a lawyer. Physical assualt is NEVR acceptable, and the person who gave me the black eye would be paying the price for his stupidity.

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  30. Yup yup yup by rawtatoor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And IT is still the industry that refuses any form of unionization. Everybody is too smart and too privliged because of the technicality of what they do to see the benefits of working together to make things better for us.

    And before you start flaming, think where you would be if you were actually on your own, if you had to code your own OS, compiler, library and every other piece of software you use in your job. Yeah, but you are a lone wolf. Keep it up IT

  31. Small companies rock. by khasim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At least they do for a certain type of personality.

    While you are responsible for EVERYTHING, that means that you get to set up everything the right way. Your way. If there's a problem, you can fix it the right way.

    As long as you can put up with the salary and hours, the job should be a cake walk.

    1. Re:Small companies rock. by Arterion · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While you are responsible for EVERYTHING, that means that you get to set up everything the right way. Your way. If there's a problem, you can fix it the right way.

      How I wish this were true. You have to do things the bosses way. And if you work for a small company, the boss is probably so hard-set in his entrepreneurial control-everything mindset that you spend more time cleaning up messes than you do actually making progress. He won't ask you what he should do, he'll make some spontaneous, completely uninformed decision and order you to do it -- trying to be circumspect, like you must in this line of work, is considered insubordination.

      What's worse is that you're often viewed with contempt because you alone know about a super-critical aspect of the business. People don't like to feel helpless, or at the mercy of another, ESPECIALLY small business owners. Sure, someone else could come in and fix it, but not on short order. And in small business, even a day or two of downtime can break the books.

      It's twice as hard for half the pay. It has its benefits, but I wonder if they're really worth it on almost a daily basis.

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    2. Re:Small companies rock. by dave562 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is the attitude that I see the most. I recently was offered a job at a small company and I declined it. The question that I asked the recruiter was, "Do the owners of the company see the IT department as an enabler that will make their business better, or do they see it as a cost center that they have to put up with?" The guy was honest with me and told me that getting them to spend money on IT always required a lot of arm twisting. To quote him, "The owner of the company looks at each dollar spent on IT as one less dollar of profit for his company." I declined the position. If my first job hadn't been for a small company, and I hadn't seen my boss struggling with management for every necessary expense, I probably wouldn't have known to ask the question I asked. The only benefit I can see from working at a small company is that once you get everything running, your job should be on cruise. It might take a year or two to get to that point, but once you're there, it will be easy street. The reason I quit my first job is because I got bored. There literally wasn't anything to do because management didn't want to spend money on IT. Everything was running smoothly and other than the occasional problem with a workstation drive crashing or something, my days were devoid of challenge. Like someone else said, it depends on your personality. If you want to work hard and be rewarded accordingly, a small company probably isn't the best place to work (unless the company is going to be growing a lot). On the other hand, if you're good at IT but want to have a life outside of work, a small company might be good for you. FWIW, I settled for an in between medium. After consulting for 8 years I now work at a moderate sized non-profit ($15 million a year budget), 250 workstations, 15 servers. I'm salary and work about 30 hours a week.

    3. Re:Small companies rock. by h3llfish · · Score: 3, Informative

      I currently work for the smallest company that I've ever been employed by - 3.5 people (no, one is not victim of a shark attack, he's part-time). And it's been a blast. I'm never bored, and I'm adding tons of stuff to my resume.

      Sure, there are stressful moments, where I am definitely out of my normal comfort zone. But I prefer it to the mind-numbing boredom of doing the same task again and again, as I did when I worked for a large company.

      That said, while smaller companies are usually better, small companies can suck too - especially when they are losing money. When I worked for a company with 40 people, I still had no autonomy, no diversity of tasks, no learning of new skills, and I was routinely asked to work long hours for no extra pay. So rather than working for a small company at all costs, I'd say work for a successful company.

  32. Re:Responsibility and time management by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cars are far more reliable. I drove my Dodge Shadow 340,000 miles which is the equivalent of 7000 hours operational time, and I can count on one hand how many problems I had with it. (Brake rotor failure, spark plug failure, leaky radiator, failed emissions, and that's it.)

    In contrast computers seem to have a problem every 50 hours (once a week) of usage. That's why people get frustrated because they think a computer should be more like a car with 1500 hours between breakdowns (once a year).

    --
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  33. Speaking of ego, as one who has left IT... by Loundry · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Man are you clueless.......

    Your comments reek of a know-it-all ego. First off you speak like all in IT have an ego. Farthest from the truth.

    I will refute your anecdotal evidence with some anecdotal evidence of my own.

    I used to be in IT. Specifically, I was a programmer. It felt natural and fun and really stroked my own inherent nerdiness. (Additionally, it was a way to insulate myself from having to be in uncomfortable social situations, but that's not really germane to the subject at hand...)

    I left IT last March and have since been in sales. Now I spend much of my day talking to strangers on the phone. In other words, I am doing cold-calling. How am I doing? Well, the web app I wrote that tracks the results of my calls tells me that I have made 4063 calls since then with 703 conversation with "decision makers". Additionally, I have only had one person hang up on me.

    It is a very, very, very different world here in sales. It's touchy feely, talky, and decidedly NON geeky. Well, there is a slight geeky side to it, but it's psychological and thus a "soft science". So I don't consider it to be true geek.

    Where is this going? Well, since I'm doing b2b and providing a technological service, I occasionally run into business owners who tell me, "Our IT department handles that, you need to talk to them." I have to tell you, that's poison to my ears when I hear that. Why? It's because IT workers view me unconditionally as some stupid uppity sales weasel who knows nothing about technology and deserves to be looked down upon. I think this is partly due to the fact that by adopting my service I would be depriving them of a job, but moreso because they view themselves as the master of their domain and don't like to be educated.

    And, honestly, I empathize with them. If I were in their shoes, I would view me as a stupid sales weasel. This is partly because I deliberately sound stupid on the phone (it puts business owners at ease -- there's that "touchy feely" stuff), but moreso because being smart and competant is very much part of IT culture. I remember feeling like I had to compete against all the other IT workers in my job. My brain power was my currency and my dick size in the IT world. I haven't ever worked an IT job that wasn't like that. You have to be able to build up a defensive barrier to survive in that kind of environment -- where all of your peers are going to try to show you up with their brain. You have to be ready to show them that they're wrong and know nothing.

    In fact, isn't that what you did to the Parent by telling him, in essence, "You know nothing of what you speak, moron!"?

    I also talked to my sister about this, since she works doing sales for web services in the UK. She shares my opinion, calling IT workers "smug" and "condescending". And she's right. I think IT workers and trained to be that way by their peers. If they have to be ready to defend themselves against their peers, how much respect do you expect them to have for some slimy sales weasel who makes much more money than they do and never has to think about recursion or race conditions?

    But it still sucks when I have talk to an IT worker the phone.

    I'll also add that my many phone conversations have allowed me to gain several levels in Wetware Hacking, which is fun.

    --
    I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
  34. I am purer than you by Loundry · · Score: 2, Funny

    I have personally quit 2 jobs in the past because I was asked to work with Microsoft products.

    Pshaw.

    I quit an all-Unix shop when I found out my boss used emacs.

    Burn, infidel!

    --
    I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
  35. Sleep Data Sleep by sbillard · · Score: 2, Informative

    My bit of advice, from a former chronic "all nighter".
    Don't sleep at your desk. Find a spot to catch those 2 or 3 hours of sleep before sunrise.
    I preferred to sleep behind the big environmental units (AC + dehumidifier). The loud buzzzzzz of the unit was a lullaby to me. And sleeping on the floor was better than sleeping in a chair head in arms on desk, neck pain ow.

  36. Re:That sucks but... by conureman · · Score: 2, Funny

    You mentioned illegal. Are you working on an H1B visa or something?

    --
    The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
  37. You're still missing the point by ReverendLoki · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I work in a medium sized business, where I am the only full time IT staff. And your generalizations are still way off.

    I'll grant you that there are a few that act that way, and they do tend to get the lion's share of the spotlight, but most of us enjoy the unique challenges the small/med sized business presents. And yes, I have worked as part of the large, mammoth organization as well.

    I enjoy the variety you get from doing a little bit of everything. I enjoy having to learn about new technology and how it applies to us. I get to plan out our over-arching IT plans, and be in the trenches implementing it. I enjoy teaching users how to use the technology given them to improve their own working abilities.

    What I don't enjoy are the small but very vocal handful of users who allow their frustration at their inability to understand some bit of technology to carry over to an immediate and irrational frustration at me. Luckily, I view these, too, as another challenge, though a more long-term one than most, and have managed to convert a number of them into, if not eager, at least willing learner.

    Now, I'm not going to say right off the bat that you fit that category; I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you've just been exposed to the minority IT group mentioned above. But how about you cut the rest of us hard-working stiffs a break, ok?

    For the record, most users I support WANT me to be able to read their e-mail, to pull up what their current password is, and are surprised when I state that, for security and auditing purposes, I can't do that.

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  38. Sometimes you can't say no. by Drakin020 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can't always say no.

    I literally was up until 3:30am last night. During that day our SAN's SPS went offline and as a result, write cache was disabled on our SAN. This affected our file server and it would lock up, resulting in users locking up.

    So I had to stay up late with Dell trying to get it fixed. What would have happened if I had said no? I would have to deal with all the problems in the morning, and listen to it from over 100 users.

    Sometimes you just can't say no. But to make matters worse, once you give your boss the notion that you will work outside of business hours, they will expect you to do it more.

    Much like getting a business phone...When I first hit the industry, I thought getting a work phone would be awesome!...Now? Because I checked my email so much outside of work, they expect a response out of me when they send an email.

    --
    The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
    1. Re:Sometimes you can't say no. by dave562 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When you work that late, you should work out a compromise with your boss. "Since I was up until 3:30am last night, I'm going to take off at lunch twice nice week." Or, "I'm going to take next Friday off." In a well run IT shop, you will always have some down time. When the systems are working as they should, your work load should be relatively light. Those periods of light work should offset those infrequent occurrences of putting in serious overtime. If you find yourself putting in overtime frequently, either stop consulting ;), start looking for a job in a shop where they know what they are doing, or figure out how to get yourself promoted around the person who has no clue what they are doing, and are therefore contributing to you having to work lots of overtime.

  39. I prefer small to mid-sized comps. by plopez · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My last job was of the better ones I had. We start out small, not IT related (env. engineering). The work was interesting, e got to rollout new technology. Since it was a smaller company we spent a large amount of time with the end-users getting to know them, their problems etc. We really developed a good rapport.

    We not only set up the infrastructure (email, networking etc.) but as there was no software to do many of the unique tasks of the company (I would look about 2 times a year) we got to do some interesting software development.

    I left for two reasons:
    1) I became very interested in Hydrology and decided to pursue that. I wanted a job with some field work.

    and

    2) As we got bigger the principals decided to hire a "real" manager. Big mistake. Up until then we were shipping software every few months in small increments to improve work flow, finding ways to do tasks for clients so we could bill out hours and be largely self-funded and basically maintaining a positive atmosphere. Within a short period of time costs skyrocketed, billable hours disappeared, the environment became toxic, the rapport with clients deteriorated and the department began to show no results. I'm glad I got out when I did.

    The upshot is, if you find the right company and can create a good environment it can be fun.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  40. Re:So is mine.. In IT by LingNoi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So why not just ignore him and get on with the job? If he complains then ask what else to do.

  41. This is amazingly instructive by Whuffo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm looking over the postings here and have realized that the people who are saying that IT workers are whiners and should suck it up - they have never worked in IT and have no idea what it's like. It must be just like any other job, right? No, it's not.

    It's a job where upper management sees you as a cost center; you contribute nothing to the bottom line. They don't want to spend any money on IT upgrades either; that old server has been working this long, it can keep on working for years. Problems? That's why we have IT staff.

    When things are working you've got management wondering why they pay you. They are constantly finding busy work for you so that you're not just sitting there. But when something fails - be prepared to work as many hours as it takes to resolve the issue. And don't be surprised if you've got executives standing over you and berating you while you're trying to fix the problem.

    Imagine (if you can) the Exchange server taking a crap (like they're known to do). The database is corrupt? No problem, that's why we have backups. Now, restore the last backup and while it takes HOURS to complete you get to deal with every asshole in management demanding to know where their email is and why you haven't got it fixed yet. It's a test and if you don't have the right answer you're out of a job. Too bad there's no right answer - good luck trying to think one up.

    I survived for eight years doing this job for a major international corporation. Would I go back to it? I'm not sure; the money wasn't too bad but oh geez, the working conditions were awful. It's not the actual problems with hardware and software that get you, it's the problems with all those managers and executives that seem to think that nothing should ever go wrong because they have an IT department taking care of it. And when something does go wrong it's because those IT people didn't do their jobs right and should be punished.

    For those of you who think that this is overstated - go get yourself a job in IT and see how you like it. After you've done it for a year or two let's see if you still think the people who have actually done it are nothing more than whiners.

  42. so check your egos and get a Union already by Uberbah · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, unions do not prevent people from being fired for cause.

    Pro-athletes, writers, directors, and actors can make vast sums of money, are rewarded for success and creativity, and yet are members of unions. There is nothing about unions that would prevent you from making that six figure salary and getting that Viper you've wanted since you were 16 - nothing.

    Yes, sometimes unions make mistakes, and some union members are lazy. But who hasn't worked at a non-union shop and seen lazy people who manage to keep their jobs.

    Enron. Worldcom. Bear Sterns. Morgan Stanley. AIG. CitiGroup. Big companies that probably managed to lose a trillion dollars between them. Therefore, big companies are bad, will never work, and should be eliminated. Hey, it's the same tired argument that get's used against unions.

    Unions haven't driven a single job overseas. Not one. You can blame executive greed and "free" trade for that.

    No, union workers in Detroit do *not* earn $71 an hour. That figure is a lie, created by adding up all the compensation paid to current workers and the benefit costs to retired members, and dividing that by the current number of workers.

    You work hard, you get rewarded. That's how it's supposed to work in this country. Yet if the minimum wage had increased at the same rate as the rise in productivity from the American worker, it would be $19 an hour today. If it had increased at the same rate as CEO compensation, it would be over $50 today.

    Union workers make at least 11% more in compensation, have more vacation time, have *much* better health benefits, and have much greater job security than non-union workers. You may think you can do a better job negotiating alone, but it's simply not going to be the case. Unless...

    Finally, say you really are the hot shit you think you are, AND ignore point #2 above. If you really are 10x as smart and work 10x as hard as the next guy, you don't want to be a worker bee in any case - you want to be in upper management, where union rules don't apply.

    1. Re:so check your egos and get a Union already by subreality · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me start off by saying, I support the idea of IT unions.

      Here's the catch: IT isn't a typical blue-collar job. The job requirements are much broader and poorly defined than any manufacturing job.

      Here's my IT union nightmare: You want to set up a new computer at someone's desk. The first guy drops off the PC. He's there because the others aren't allowed to lift heavy objects. Then you get a Computer Technician I to come out and cable the thing up. He plugs in most of the stuff local to the computer, but anything that plugs into the wall is for another guy. First you have to have an Electrician come out and plug it in, and then a Network Technician I come out to plug in the network cable. We wouldn't want the Computer Technician to start screwing up the delineated responsibilities, would we? And if you want that PC set up on time, you better have filed the request forms several days in advance so all these guys could be coordinated to show up. What, he accepted the job and is starting tomorrow? Good luck.

      This example is not an exaggeration. I've seen this kind of stuff happen *all the time* and to way more ridiculous degrees in industrial construction. The best I've seen yet is where several hundred tons of equipment were disconnected, loaded up on trucks and hauled offsite so that the control panels could be opened up and have 5 minutes of rewiring done, because that was determined to be faster and cheaper than the number of union guys that we'd have had to bring in to do it for us.

      And that's for traditional union-type jobs, where a clear delineation can be made.

      As an IT guy, I'm expected to handle a huge number of roles. Every sysadmin at times gets to be a hardware engineer, network administrator, programmer, electrician, plumber, HVAC specialist, technical writer, QA tech, and psychologist.

      As a network admin, I've had my switches blow a blade at 3 in the morning. You can't reasonably make desktop switches redundant, and even the best brand name gear sometimes just blows up. So there's a choice: Either I go in at 3 AM and swap the blade, or 48 people are going to find themselves without net in the morning while I do it then.

      Even for a desktop tech who doesn't have to deal with this, it's nice to simply be able to work an extra hour when you're on a roll with something, and not have to pick it back up in the morning.

      I'm totally fine with off-hours work like this, as long as it's the normal, unpreventable stuff that happens when working with technology, or reasonable flex time usage. I always take off time later in the week as compensation. It's clearly different from being systematically exploited to milk me for extra work.

      And I think that's why IT people recoil from the idea of IT unions. I would *hate* this job if I had to squabble about job responsibilities and hours all the time the way that I've seen other unions do. It'd make me unbearably inefficient. I don't think it *has* to be this way, but if we ever unionize, these things have to be taken into account, or we'll have a disaster.

  43. Re:They're Called Masochists by Gorobei · · Score: 3, Interesting

    They like to be stressed, over-worked, exploited, have no personal time and also appreciate being handed enough rope with which to hang themselves?

    Guess I'm one of those guys (although a mere 80 hours/week seems a bit slacker.) On the plus side:

    1. Stressed? Yes. But if I want a day off, I just take it. No one is counting vacation and personal days in any real way.
    2. Over-worked? Sure. I get stuff done on time and with zero supervision: tell me what you need and it happens. Heck, half my time is spent browsing the web to get up-skilled.
    3. Exploited? Hmm... I produce results, you pay me obscene amounts of money. I can deal.
    4. No personal time? Maids, nannies, accountants, PAs, etc, fix a lot of this. True that I don't get a few long Sundays fishing with the kids, but I still have time to read them a book every night.
    5. Hanging rope? Bring it on! I'm doing what I think is right, and if it ever gets to the point that management and I can't agree on the right course of action, I expect to be fired -- I'm happy to do tactical, but I won't do stupid. The few times this has happened in my career, I've bowed to the inevitable and taken a 20% pay raise at a new company.

  44. Doesn't work in IT by phorm · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The issue in IT, at least from my experience, is not about missing deadlines or other planning, it's about work that springs up suddenly or constantly. These tend to be because of many factors:

    a) Budget: A lot of small or mid-sized companies can't afford a huge amount of redundancy. If a server goes down, there's not a drop-in replacement for it. If you're smart there are backups, but one still has to get them up and running.

    b) Time=Money: a little different from (a) Time is money. In environments that require near 24/7 uptime, downtime means money lost, which means that you're required to get things up and running ASAP, whether it's 3:00pm or 3:00am. Often again going with small-mid businesses, you may be able to afford all the expensive resources to keep things up (this includes redundant staff)

    c) Other People: Plan all you want, but when your development team's latest project breaks a server at 1:00am, or marketing needs a last minute push, or a million other things... and you're the only one who can update or fix a live server... you're going to get a call.

    It's funny though, because my previous job in a union shop with strict hours was irritating in the opposite way. I wasn't even *allowed* to work overtime except with large amounts of paperwork, so that means cramming what you would normally do "after hours" in a rather open schedule in a small and very stressful "window"

  45. Re:My pu55y aches by bds1986 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not all data loss is caused by incompetent IT staff. If the IT staff recommend a functional backup system but management refuses to shell out for it, there's not much that can be done.

  46. IT co-workers cause the stress by jwhitener · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In my 2 IT jobs over the last 10 years, it has been my experience that the majority of my stress on the job, is caused by incompetent co-workers.

    The people that hire IT/CS staff rarely understand that continuing education is what differentiates great IT staff from poor IT staff. The people that hire IT/CS sometimes having a good understanding of the 'buzzwords' or 'skillsets' required for a particular job, but do not understand how rapidly IT changes, and how important it is to hire people that are self-motivated learners.

    Most of my major problems and frustrations as a developer/sys analyst, comes from working with people that have just enough knowledge to complete projects in their area, but not enough motivation or additional knowledge to complete their projects in a way that eases transitions over time.

    As time goes on, the systems become more and more tangled and difficult to work with, to the point that any new project declared by management is 10x harder than it needs to be.

    I consider management part of the "co-worker" set also. Most managers of IT sub-departments (manager of network services, manager of data center, etc..) have enough knowledge to direct their employees fairly well in their own little kingdom, but rarely have an understanding of the "big picture" as it comes to the IT services as a whole.

    The net result of these little ignorant "kingdoms" inside an IT department, is a very frustrated worker trying to implement projects which are often much more difficult because of conflicting priorities and resource allocation.

    One of the stereotypes of IT/CS work, is that it is too hard for the average person to understand: it is 'mysterious'. This view tends to reinforce the idea that it is OK to not explain your IT actions, and just 'fix the problem'. Numerous uncoordinated 'fixes' often results in project delays and failures.

    To sum up:
    While I haven't yet seen an 'in production' way to make sure that the right staff are hired, and I have seen a few ways that address the issues of managers communicating, and ways to unveil the natural secret-like way in which a lot of IT work is accomplished.

    The first a quick 15 minute "who's doing what next week" type meeting. Everyone in IT, as well as super users of all the systems, meets on a friday afternoon and just rapidly spills out what is going on. Standing meeting to keep it fast. Just a quick mention of the DETAILS of your work. Whether or not everyone understands what you say is irrelevant. The major purpose being to throw everything in IT out in the air and see if anyone else sees a problem with it.

    The second helpful thing I've seen is to have a group of USERS, not IT staff, help direct the priority of projects. IT managers have to present their projects and justifications for those projects, and the users decide what is most important. You'd be surprised how well that works to bridge the gap between IT and its user base. Oftentimes, a user/superuser of your systems can be frustrated by a mysterious network slowdown, a service outage, or or or... Keeping them in the loop takes that frustration away, which keeps it off your day to day IT workers.

    And the last good thing I've seen is to make sure that IT has meetings that span departments. Your desktop staff, helpdesk, developers, server admins, etc.. should all be meeting together to just 'shoot the shit' every so often. It is amazing to see what could have been big problems adverted by having a no agenda cross department meeting every couple weeks.

    At any rate, none of the above applies to small IT teams, but it has, and is working, for our larger 100+ IT staff at the institution that I'm working for.

  47. Re:They're Called Masochists by MartinSchou · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Guess I'm one of those guys (although a mere 80 hours/week seems a bit slacker.)How does that even work out? If you never have days off (i.e. weekends) you're working 11½ hours a day. 8 hours for sleeping leaves you with 4½ hours for hygiene, shopping and commuting. Basicly you'll be at work or sleeping.

    It gets even worse if you have days off. If you work 6 days a week you're at work 13 hours and 20 minutes a day. If you have weekends off you'll be at work 16 hours a day.

    Do you sleep at work? Do they pay your rent? All things considered, you can't be using your home for much - it's basicly reduced to being a biological docking station, charging you up for the next day's work, so they should really be paying for that as well.

    How the fuck can an 80 hour work week be seen as a "good thing" and not slavery (with pay)?

    Even better - you mention you have kids? And that you're using personal assistants, nannies and maids ... do your kids even know you're their dad/mom, or are you just "that weirdo that shows up to read me stuff"?

    And what is the point of the "obscene amounts of money" they pay you? Financial security? Does that buy your kids the attention they need? And if you're that good at what you do, why not settle for 40 hours a week, more time with the family and kids, and half an obscene amount of money, which is usually still a lot of money. Might even mean you can fire the nannies and maids - that way you wouldn't feel as big an impact.

    I realise I sound rather hatefull, which is strange as I don't know you at all, but I just don't see why people are so insanely obscessed about making tons of money that they'd give up a chance to spend time with their children.

  48. How safe are we? by jeko · · Score: 5, Funny

    That was just beautiful, man. Just perfect.

    The fact that you can demonstrate such an awesome grasp of this fundamental concept makes me want to vote you IT Czar.

    Seriously. I want you to go all around the world and talk to absolutely everyone and repeat that little speech. I wanna see you show up as a guest on The Daily Show. I want to see them make "Backup Plane: The Movie" I want you to wander the Earth like Johnny Appleseed and Samuel Jackson in "Pulp Fiction," getting into adventures and imparting this wisdom to all you meet.

    And then maybe, just maybe, on some faraway golden day, in a better world than the one we have now, I'll pick up my phone to hear some poor netadmin chump cry out for help and when I ask that vile bastard "Do you have any backups?" maybe, just maybe, he'll say "Yes, I took them yesterday."

    And when that glorious day comes, ToasterMonkey, I swear I will find the tallest twin peaks in the world, and dynamite the first into the shape of a toaster, and the other into the shape of a monkey, in your eternal glorious honor.

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."