Slashdot Mirror
A Teacher Asking Students To Destroy Notes?
zwei2stein writes "I found this question with far-reaching implications in the off-topic section of a forum I frequent: 'My economics teacher is forcing us to give up all of our work for the semester. Every page of notes and paper must be turned over to her to be destroyed to prevent future students from copying it. My binder was in my backpack, and she went into my backpack to take it. Is that legal?' Besides the issue with private property invasion, which was the trigger of that post, there is much more important question: Can a teacher ask a student not to retain knowledge? How does IP law relate to teaching and sharing knowledge? Whose property are those notes?"
You wrote them? They belong to you.
This is called theft, there is no other word for it. File a police report immediately.
easy solutions:
a) photocopy the notes
b) type them up to begin with
c) leave ITT TECH and go to a real university
Nature journal lied in Britannica vs Wikipedia Ask to retrac
Theft, unlawful search and seizure, destruction of property..... You could go nuts with this. This can't possibly be legal.
Alchemist: Be Thou For the People
1) With the school. 2) With the local police. 3) Contact a major news outlet. 4) Refuse going to that class until settled. 5) Contact local ACLU type outfit. Write down the event now, while it's still fresh.
... back in my undergrad days I had an issue with a professor who tried to pull his own stunts, even trying to call me out (while claiming to not know who he was calling out) publically in class. After a conversation with couple of lawyers and a few folks at the university after making a complaint of harassment (me being a white male who at the time was in his early 20's) and which at one point resulting in the university president calling me on my cell personally, it was decided that given the professors work was a paid for by the university, they had effectively no rights to it... so my copious note taking, and eventual whole scale recording of classes what perfectly legitimate and up to the university... and not the individual professor who was being paid to perform for the classes behalf.
As sad as I am to say it... a tape recorder, obvious or not (ideally obvious be it in public or private) can be your best friend... though in my case I also had a laptop recording everything as well.
Let me give you the advice I was given when I was dealing with an overzealous professor who thought they were god in the classroom and eventually was threatening to sue me and the school... talk to a lawyer.
Remember though... I am not a lawyer, I've just talked to a few over this issue and think you should to.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Is the purpose of a college class to give a student knowledge of a field of study? Or is it to just award a credit towards a degree?
Sound to me that the lecturer thinks it's the latter, which is a problem. Those notes are a valuable resource to any student who wants to retain that knowledge, whether for future classes, a job after college, or just for the pure love of knowledge for its own sake. The student has paid for those notes in time, effort, and money. Asking him to give them up is short-sighted and stupid. Taking them from his backpack is theft.
Not like you're going to use anything taught in there after that class anyway...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
*Do* file a police report, *do* talk to a lawyer.
*Also* scan all the docs into .pdf and put them all online.
Letting criminals like your prof get away with their crimes (theft is a crime, and illegal) only encourages their deviant behavior (normal people don't steal, your prof is a deviant).
I'll venture a quick guess... Ms. Galindo, Harlandale High School, San Antonio, TX? (I'm surprised she's still teaching if so, she has to be pushing 70 by now. I graduated in 1996..didn't have her for classes, but knew of her antics far too well.)
If it isn't her, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that someone else would do the same.
Besides being anal about exactly how students take notes, she was notorious for making all students turn in their notebooks at the end of the year. She would make sure they were complete (you'd fail the entire class if not) and then make you shove it through an industrial shredder she had brought in just for this task.
Fun fact: She was teaching there as far back as the 70's...a family friend had her back then. The friend ended up out of school due to medical issues. An hour after waking up from a major surgery that had her gutted like a fish, that teacher was on the phone making sure she was doing her homework.
You paid your tuition so that you could gain knowledge.
Forcing you to give up your notes is effectively saying that you must retain everything in your head, which is ridiculous.
They're your notes, you paid to be able to take them. She has no right.
And even beyond that, it's unreasonable search and seizure by a civilian (what would that fall under, larceny?) for her to go into your backpack without your permission. File a police report and involve the administration of your school.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
You don't "copy" class notes, you write class notes. In your own words. There is a big difference. You are the author.
Perhaps he himself didn't pay, but his parents, if they are law abiding citizens, did pay their taxes to fund his education.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10351058
Are you serious? You allowed the teacher to go into your backpack, which is your private property, and take something which belonged to you, while doing nothing about it? Not even the cops can go into your backpack like that.
Why are so many people so freakin spineless?
I don't want to sound like an internet warrior here, but dude, if a teacher tried to do that to me, I would prevent them, pushing / punching / kicking them if I had to as a last resort.
(No, this does not make me a 'violent idiot' as someone else stated, it just means I have enough backbone stand up for myself in person with ACTION rather than on the internet with words. ACTION is the only sort of standing up that really matters, when it all comes down to it.)
You do know that you have the right to defend your personal property, right? Man up.
Yes, I know this could lead to repercussions from the university, such as being threatened with expulsion - that's when you get lawyers involved.
There's no way to say how it would pan out, but you have the advantage that, in the eyes of the law, you are in the right and they are in the wrong - provided you don't pull a weapon or beat them to death, anyway. That equates to a lot of potential negative publicity which the university probably doesn't want.
If you make a big enough stink about it, they'll most likely just let it slide eventually - though it will be tough for a while.
You might get kicked out, but Jesus H Christ man, you cannot go through life acting like a minnow and bending over when you know what someone else is doing is wrong.
STAND UP for yourself for god's sake. Let the chips fall where they may. When you get to the end of your life, you aren't going to wish you were nicer to that teacher (instead of punching them square in the solar plexus), but you will probably regret allowing people to trample all over you and never quite getting what you wanted.
This has been a public service announcement.
Hold it. You may actually deal with a sensible school board. Yeah, sounds funny, but such things exist. They may be very interested in settling this quietly, return the notes and do what they love to do: pretend nothing ever happened. And that's basically what the OP wants, if I got him/her right.
Once you blow it up and it gets news coverage, they can't simply return the notes and sweep it under the rug. They'll probably start to make up some big excuse why this is necessary in an attempt to save face, the student gets all sorts of troubles... Realize that schools have a lot of abilities to make oyur life really miserable if you're a student there.
So far, the principal could still be unaware of the problem and be on the side of the student.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
(A) Let me know when high schools start having fraternities. The origin of this story was a high school student. But regardless, in the case of colleges:
(B) Frats and so on have been building up files on her class for years already, and will continue to do so. My University found that it was pointless to fight this and allowed the Student Body Association to print and sell copies of "official" lecture notes, approved by the professors, for recurring lectures. As it turned out, it was a very positive thing and everybody benefitted except those who were too poor to spend $10 for a semester's worth of notes.
(C) Yes, self-taken notes belong to the writer.
(D) This is a matter of legal rights, not University rules, so whether the professor is tenured or not is irrelevant. Lawyers and police can nail a tenured professor for theft and invasion as easily as one with no tenure.
(E) "Don't file a police report", my ass. If somebody steals my property, I am going to report it. Again, this is not a matter of rules, it is a matter of the law. The more illegal activities you allow someone to get away with, the more they begin to feel they have the right to do it.
Does it actually matter if the story is true or not, as long as it gives a topic for discussion? It is claimed to have actually happened, and it provides a good topic for exploring the community's beliefs about personal rights.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
If someone is stealing from me, I have every right (in my state, anyway) to prevent that theft, with "reasonable" violence if need be.
My state law specifically states that I have the right to defend myself, other people, and my property with a "reasonable" amount of force. And by damned, I would do exactly that. A punch in the nose is more than reasonable for a semester's worth of lecture notes.
If recent police action is any indication, then it would be "reasonable" for me to taze her and beat her with nightsticks as well! After all, standards are standards.
Agreed. Her goal is to prevent cheating. That may be laudable in and of itself, but this is a stupid way to go about it, for all kinds of reasons. It's probably illegal. And ineffective at stopping cheating.
Also, the teacher has put herself into a lousy position. If she gives the student a poor grade at the end of the term, then he can file a grievance claiming that she actively prevented him from earning a higher grade by destroying his notes. That's solid grounds for a complaint. Furthermore, it sounds as if she did this to the entire class. They've all got grounds for that claim.
By destroying the notes, the teacher has also destroyed any trust the students might have had in her, and seriously undermined her own credibility. She's lost any claim to impartiality here. No one can teach effectively under those circumstances, even an otherwise good teacher. It's stupid.
And worse, it's destructive. She's actively preventing her students from learning. As a college teacher myself, I am outraged. This is not acceptable professional conduct.
The student should immediately file a formal complaint with the teacher's department and the dean. I strongly suspect that the teacher will be removed from the class and replaced by someone else, as she is in no position to finish out the term now.
It's too early to file a legal challenge, but the student would be well advised to consult a lawyer immediately to discover what the legal options are in case things go badly.
If i understand correctly , the problem is the some students cheat by copying over the tests and homework.
All the teacher has to do is give different tests and homework for each class. How hard can that be ? My teachers always worked this way.
Having your homework/tests is great way to know your mistakes and learn from them. I don't see why students have to suffer because the teacher is too lazy to do her work.
Slipping shoelaces ?
Well you can't do anything now since you consented to her taking them by letting her in your backpack. Sounds like you just got a lesson in 4th amendment rights. Never let anyone, including authority figures cop teachers, have your personal property ever. Even if you have nothing to hide.
The correct thing to do is to go to an appropriate dean (which one depends on how the school is structured - in the university I attended, it could have been the dean who oversees the professor, or the dean of the college of my major, or the "dean of students") and explain that the professor opened your backpack without your permission and took from you notes which you wrote on paper you paid for, and that this is theft and you want your notes back. If they are reluctant to act, explain to them very politely that you're trying to help them by not making this criminal theft a matter for the police, and won't they please consider doing something about it?
In economics, the exam questions are the same every year. They just change the answers.
I had no idea theft was a civil offense. I mean physical theft where you take away some person's property, not the copyright violations that some people call "theft" today.
Thanks to the MAFIAA, people seem to be blurring the lines between philosophical discussion and actual physical violence where someone's property is forcibly taken away.
Hey folks, write this down: TAKING AWAY A BINDER IS THEFT. COPYING A FILE IS NOT THEFT. Is this clear?
Funny thing for me is that I find the whole situation bullshit from the beginning. I understand the idea is to verify that the student has retained the information and more preferably can demonstrate an application of that knowledge in a meaningfully productive way. What I find is bullshit about it, is that it does not represent real life for many people in most the of the areas of study that I am aware of.
Personally, I have an inordinate number of reference books around me and when I code I even have a whole monitor dedicated just to references on my systems. Many people are no different. Mechanics, Plumbers, Doctors, Lawyers, Coders, Technicians, Teachers, etc. all have access to reference materials around them at all times. You almost cannot do most of the jobs without it.
The value that a class should provide, IMHO, is the core understanding of the material itself and how to apply it. Critical thinking. Additionally, any academic institution should be instilling very strong research skills into their students. Research is a person's real strength. Not that they have the answer immediately on the tip of their tongue, but they can say, "I don't know, but I will get the answer shortly". Over time any experienced person will refer to the references less and less, but they will never have to stop doing research.
Look at this way. If you have no beforehand knowledge of the material and you cannot apply it to a problem either, how can references possibly help you solve a problem in a real world time-frame? You would lose the contract or get fired since you have zero experience entering the field. A genius cannot become a doctor and diagnose and heal a bunch of people within 24 hours with references alone. It would be a rather huge learning curve to overcome.
The only way you could do that in an academic setting is if the test is multiple choice, and multiple choice tests are the biggest single catastrophic failure in our education systems since we first had written languages. There is always one right answer, a reasonable answer that is not correct, and a 2 or 3 other answers that are off the wall bullshit. It's the easy way out for educators and most often leaves students with very little retention of the material over time. Life is not a multiple choice test. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it is true. There is not always a sign in front of you with the correct course of action. You have to be able to think and gather all the data around you and analyze it. In short, research skills.
I would absolutely challenge anybody to the following experiment. Have 100 students that have been discussing the material for 6 months with their professors and each other. Have 100 students in isolation, or with no exposure to the material at all. Create a test with no multiple choice answers. This test would have so many questions that nobody could answer them all within the testing period. Allow any and all references to the students during the test.
Grade it according to a curve. Look at how many wrong answers a person gives relative the right answers. Then look at that relative to their peers.
I would be willing to bet the 1st set of students do dramatically better overall than the 2nd. Some of the students in the 2nd group may be do as well as their 1st group peers, but I would bet they are already possess exceptional research abilities and be able to think fast on their feet. Some of the students in the 1st group may be "low watt bulbs". Even after being exposed to the material for six months and talking about they have not retained much information or garnered any insights as well.
The students that do well in such an experiment would probably do well in any real world setting too.
Problem with testing that way is that it represents more work for the teacher. However, that is what teaching assistants are for. Just do the damned work IMO. My tuition paid for it.
This is a matter that could be reasonable resolved without going to for the last resort straight away.
Neither I nor my parents ever signed a contract for me to attend my school. How does fine-print stand up?
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Right. Additionally this is a teaching concern. If the teacher is so concerned with cheating that they are willing to go to such great lengths to prevent it then perhaps they would best be counseled by their peers.
This seems to be a case of the teacher being too lazy to mix things up from year to year. Additionally (Especially at a college level) You are paying for that class, and those notes are one of the few means available to re-study the material from. If I got wiff of this ahead of time, my notes would be at home. If necessary - I would negotiate a review of the situation with the teachers boss before agreeing to anything, and that teacher would basically have to take my backpack off me to get at my notes, which I will likely assume to be a form of assault and respond in kind (which means pushing their arm away and leaving (Hey - this isn't my house, I have to retreat before striking back))
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
Many responses here seem extremely excessive, especially on a site that is usually quick to criticise going heavy-handed with lawyers. Why go with the weapon of last resort and eliminate all the other options provided for the purpose?
Try being reasonable and diplomatic. That won't limit the heavier options later on and can actually benefit them - here in the UK you are generally expected to extinguish reasonable options before going to court (either way it'll certainly look better).
Try simply explaining that you require the notes to maintain the knowledge for use in later life and have no intention of handing it out to others. Carefully explain that the notes are your property, both physically (you bought the paper) and intellectually, making the position clear but leaving the teacher's own mind to envision the potential for legal action. You DID supply the paper, and there isn't any slide handouts in there, right?
If that still doesn't work, advise the teacher that she should not destroy the notes while you explore other options (being careful to be non-threatening). At this point there may be a more friendly teacher you could approach who may be able to mediate and tactfully resolve this without fuss. People change their minds more readily when it is a friend/colleague/peer presenting their perspective, and where there is minimal consequence from being wrong. Why be all confrontational? This goes both ways: it's an opportunity for YOU to discover you are wrong, in a manner with minimal consequences for you...
If that fails, keep elevating it one step at a time. That would probably involve a parent writing to the teacher, the headteacher and next attending a PTA/PTO meeting.
Still not resolved? No doubt there are still more options and then, ultimately, court and/or newspapers. The intermediate steps will only benefit these options, not reduce them.
Organisations and society in general provide numerous means, checks and balances to sustain your rights. It's such a pity when people ignore them and skip to the option of last resort - courts are supposed to be there only for when society and organisations fail to provide fairness and justice.
Can't these people consider proportionality and appropriateness? Is it really necessary to harm a teachers career and potentially the school for the sake of some notes, without even bothering to make some common sense attempts first?
Ya know, that's a good point. This is GOVERNMENT that we are talking about. A teacher can no more copyright her notes, than a Congressman can copyright his speeches in the House, or a president copyright his emails in the White House, or the FCC chairman copyright his documentations/rulings.
It's the People's property. All things in government belong to the people, and is public domain. Some of it might be kept secret for defense purposes, but eventually it gets released. This teacher is a government employee and all things she creates while on the government clock belong to the People, and in the public domain.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall