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Microsoft To Exit the Zune Business?
thefickler writes "According to Microsoft's quarterly filings to the Securities and Exchange Commission, the Zune platform experienced a revenue drop of 54 percent, or $100 million. This compares to relatively healthy sales of the iPod, which were up 3 percent in the same period (though revenue did drop by 16 percent). Obviously, with the recent job cuts at Microsoft's Entertainment and Devices Division, pundits are wondering how soon until the Zune also gets the chop. As one pundit wrote: 'Microsoft, by now, should be realizing that it's never going to be as "cool" as Apple, so why waste its time with the Zune where it has no competitive advantage?'"
Steve Ballmer saying "squirt".
Heckuva marketing slogan, that one.
No sig today...
the "suddenoutbeakofcommonsense" tag
So there is a marked for a not dumbed doen uncool things. Sure, they are not as profitable, but it's all about the choice.
Except that the Zune, by all accounts, was uncool and dumbed down
"She's furniture with a pulse"
It's fairly easy to see why the Zune failed.
1. A mammoth uphill struggle to beat the popular and well-established iPod (as well as many other competitors)
2. The use of DRM.
3. The use of the word "squirt." Which is easily associated with bodily functions.
4. It came in brown. Which made "squirt" all the more obnoxious.
5. The lock-up issue.
No-one will miss it...
All of this (the article and our posts) are speculation, so as long as we are guessing/gossiping/conjecturing, etc.
Microsoft has indicated that they would prefer less manufacturers and models of Windows mobile based phones, so they can make the OS more tightly integrated with the hardware. There have also been rumors that Zune functionality would be folded into the phone, which tends to make sense. So my guess would be they gracefully lose, er...bow out to the iPod and say they are "providing a great combination to their customers by putting the Zune features into the phone."
no comment
Just rename it the iZune, eZune, or better yet, the ieZune...slap a Vista Capable sticker on it and it can't help selling like hotcakes!
*crickets chirping*
Well, then again, maybe not.
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
Nobody except this guy:
http://sydfish.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/zune-tattoo.jpg
Oh, now I see why it failed...
No sig today...
It would be awesome if the open source Rockbox media player firmware was ported to the Zune and could use the "squirt" hardware, but without that nasty DRM.
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Mussolini
especially when it was never sold outside of North America.
If it was such a world beating innovative 'must have' then it should have been available worldwide.
The writing was even on the wall from day 1. What marketing droid said 'sell it in Brown'? Duh?
Then came all the recent lockups.
Come on Microsoft, put the injured beast out of its misery.
And while you are doing that, have another long hard think about launching a DRM crippled Music Download service.
Many of us Elephants have long memories. Does 'Plays for Sure' ring any bells?
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
It's more about making products people want to buy. How many people really want to buy Microsoft products anymore? When was the last time we heard about people lining up to buy the latest version of Windows? The problem for Microsoft is that it has a hard time making products that excite the vast majority of the public, and they've had a few huge mistakes in public perception lately. The Xbox 360 Red Ring of Death was a just a debacle. They shipped a Zune that was less feature-filled than the then current iteration iPod. Don't get me started on Vista, "Vista Capable," and "Vista Ready," or whatever those stupid stickers said.
Sure, Apple products are cool, but they also work pretty well. Why Microsoft didn't look to Apple's or it's own playbook and more closely linked the Zune to the Windows environment is beyond me. This worked for years with Explorer.
Seriously, Xbox games are "cool." I have an original Xbox, and I have been giving Microsoft my $$$ for several years now for my Xbox Live membership. However, I'm just too stingy to give my money to Microsoft for an Xbox 360 after all the hoopla about failure rates. The race to beat Sony to the market was a failure of vision and an appreciation of paradigm shift. There was a huge market for casual gaming that just wasn't going to be satisfied by the first-person shooter, and Nintendo was able to capture it. We can chalk that up to a happy accident for Nintendo executives, but so what?
If a company tries to be all things to all people, it will be unable to do everything as well as companies that are smaller, more focused, or more nimble. Look at General Motors as example number one. Consumers have too much access to information and too many choices. The problem with Microsoft's executive leadership is that the strategic steps they take are, primarily, reactions to market forces. Then, they are placed in the position of having to respond. Why didn't anyone at Microsoft see that Netbooks might one day become popular and have a version of Vista which would run on them? No one? How long was Intel working on the Atom?
Microsoft stocks are, historically, looking pretty affordable right now, but I'm going to wait. I just don't see any game changing ideas coming out of Redmond. Until, as a company, it starts doing something much better than the competition, it will never rise to its former glory days, and its market share and/or profits will continue to decline.
Make love, not reality television.
In a bid to win back profits after huge layoffs worldwide, Microsoft UK has launched Zune MusicTurd(tm) for mobile phones.
The highly competitive music store offers tracks at twice the price, DRM-locked to a chosen individual ear of the purchaser. If they can get it to work with their phone. Microsoft were careful to point out to the financial press that charging your account, however, works perfectly and that the helpline number has been connected to a fax machine.
Microsoft is confident the MusicTurd(tm) service will attract millions of people who will buy tracks from them to play on one mobile ever, not transferable to any other device including the same phone's replacement, in preference to stores offering cheaper unlocked MP3s, and won't just drive people to filesharing networks, MP3 blogs or copying 500 gigabyte USB disks full of music from their friends in sheer disgust at these corporate tools.
"We understand that lots of people use telephones they carry around with them these days," said Hugh Griffiths, Microsoft UK head of Mobile, "and you can even play music on them. A bit like a transistor radio. Whatever will they think of next! So if we get the consumer interest, we'll offer an enhanced version, MusicTurd(tm) Polished(tm). Like we're doing with Windows 7. You can't expect it to be any good until the third version, of course. So buy the first two and it'll be fantastic. Trust us on this. We have hundreds of loyal suck, er, customers on the MSN website, I'm sure we can squeeze them until the pips rattle.
"What do you mean, I'm lacking enthusiasm for our product? You'd think I was trying to get redundancy in the next round of layoffs or something. Ha! Ha! What a ridiculous notion."
[Read the original interview. Least enthusiastic marketer in history. It was quite hard to outdo.]
[Oh, and have a Zune-Anus logo.]
http://rocknerd.co.uk
It doesn't really matter what the market share is compared to what the costs versus revenue the thing is bringing in. OK, with sales that low compared to the iPod it might not be all that great, but there are niche products with lousy market share that have good returns. So that's the real question and the one that the business decision makers at MS will be examining.
'Microsoft, by now, should be realizing that it's never going to be as "cool" as Apple, so why waste its time with the Zune where it has no competitive advantage?'"
What are you talking about? The Windows platform was never cooler than Apple's but did Microsoft quit the PC business just because Apple's product was way cooler? No! They should keep hammering on until the market goes their way.
We've seen the same trend when it comes to their IIS web server vs Apache and the rest, Windows Live vs Google/Yahoo.
The battle is on for Silverlight/Moonlight vs Flash, and XPS vs PDF.
Microsoft should not just give up. Wars are never won by giving up battles here and there. They are won when the smarter adversary opens up new fronts with better targeted resources.
A better question is, why waste time reading an article that has half the story. What sort of "pundit" makes predictions based on that sort of information? The entire thing hinges on PROFIT, which is skillfully avoided throughout that piece. Assumably, this isn't an xbox situation, surely these devices are not being sold at a loss.
I record my sleeptalking
But in the uncool market the Zune has to compete with Creative, iRiver and all those companies, that actually know how to make an MP3 player.
Why not compare revenue to revenue, or sales to sales?
Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
They killed the brand with a massive fault and the bad publicity surrounding it. Nothing else in Zune's history needed to happen to justify scrapping the brand, just like nothing else needed to happen for IBM's Deskstar brand to be sold off after it became known as Deathstar.
The entire Entertainment and Devices Division is going to get a massive house cleaning.
Zune hardware is the first step. It's the easiest to kill off. How much of stand alone portable music player market there will be in five years when so many people are starting to use their cellphones makes just throwing in the towel on the Zune hardware an obvious choice.
Killing off the eight year long Xbox fiasco is next. Microsoft has been consistently killing off or letting go first party developers for the past couple of years. The first party developers are now done to only Rare, Lionhead, and Turn 10. Not the actions of company looking long term to still be in the console market. Other none developer Xbox staff at Microsoft got axed in the recent layoffs and there is supposed to be even more dramatic changes and cuts coming soon.
So far the two Xbox products have racked up over 8 billion in losses over 8 years. Even with the poorly designed and manufactured Xbox 360 hardware Microsoft is still losing money three years into the consoles life. The Entertainment and Devices Division only barely made a tiny profit for 2008 due to absurd accounting games like having the profitable Microsoft Mac software unit placed in the Xbox's division to help hide the hardware losses.
The days of Microsoft being willing to just keep throwing money at the Xbox fiasco are coming to an end. The remaining first party studios should be gone by this year going by the rate they've been closing down or letting go their other studios. The 2 to 3 billion minimum it would take to create another Xbox isn't going to happen. Instead Microsoft will just let the Xbox die out in the market over the next couple years and milk as much money as they can out of the suckers willing to keep paying 50 dollars a year for online gaming.
I agree with you, I hate ipods too, mostly because I hate itunes, but I was never too crazy about the ipod itself, either. I had planned on getting a Sansa, but having a gift certificate at Wal-Mart, I had to choose between a Zune and an iPod. I really like my Zune, though. I've never had any problems with the player, although the software on my pc, since version 2, has been a major headache. I can't figure out what could possibly be uncool about the Zune, other than the fact that Microsoft makes it and it's brown (which is actually an "in" color right now, except for technology). I don't see how the term "dumbed-down" can really even apply to an mp3 player. How advanced can you expect it to be? I seriously, honestly think that 80-90% of the people dissing the Zune have never even used one, and are just jumping on the Hate-The-Zune wagon, which itself is simply riding on the bigger Hate-Microsoft wagon, which is more like a mobile city than a wagon. But having owned both the Zune and iPods, I would make the same choice again.
And about the Zune having DRM (is what I heard), I don't really understand that because it comes with a built-in wireless system so you can share your music with any other nearby Zune. Which seems like the opposite of what DRM is trying to accomplish. I have yet to see an iPod that does that.
The path to enlightenment is truly through homemade drugs!
It was doomed from the start and here is why. Most MS products do not stand on their own. They are either riding on someone's coattails initially or shoved down people's throats (e.g. DOS and office and explorer). This is usually through corporate sales which a bribeable. Zune had to stand on it's own but had no legs.
I don't see what anyone could possibly think was wrong with the Zune logo.
http://rocknerd.co.uk
Aside from Windows on consumer PCs (which includes gaming PCs), Microsoft's consumer-facing businesses have either lost tons of money or have broken even.
What keeps Microsoft as a going concern is its enterprise customers. Businesses are generally slow to adopt new technology (there are exceptions, of course), and Microsoft has benefited from that fact. With Windows, Office, Exchange, SQLServer, ActiveDirectory, Sharepoint, IE-only intranet applications, not to mention the large number of Windows-only speciality applications, etc, they are firmly entrenched in the enterprise.
However, once somebody offers an affordable, standards-compliance, and possible open-source Exchange + ActiveDirectory alternative to small and medium sized businesses, then Microsoft's enterprise business will start to get chizelled away.
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I like it!
Actually, I have an iriver and everyone I've shown it too agrees, it's very cool. It's on a whole other level to most other mp3 players, but the company can't back it up with press stunts and things.
And as cherry topping to the Zune's EOB they need to shutdown their DRM servers along with it...
What would again prove that they do not get how to deal with customers directly.
All hope abandon ye who enter here.
I presume you missed this.
The idea of the original posting that since MS "only" sold $100M of the devices last year they'll leave the market? Or is it that they'll leave the market because the successful iPod line is eating their lunch? Or is is because we all agree the Zune isn't "cool"?
MS has many lines of business that are under $100M in annual revenue, yet they continue on in those markets, despite not being #1 - I'm thinking keyboards, mice, MS Home Server, etc.
The Zune is a fine piece of hardware, despite the recent bru-ha-ha over the particular model that couldn't handle leap year, and I suspect that MS will lower their investment in Zune hardware development, focus on differentiation on the software side, and (likely) focus on the "self-ripped" MP3 market (as opposed to the $0.99 per-song download market.
A $100M revenue company selling MP3 devices that are tailored to the Windows platform should be a no-brainer, and I believe MS will turn it around. Having said that, my family has all iPods, despite most of our computers running windows...
Ken
Given the success of the iPod world-wide, why would you assume that Zune would have done any better in the rest of the world?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If MS really wants to go for it, they have enough cash to ride out any downturn. They can re-tweak the Zune design till it clicks with the public.
This happened before with Windows CE and Palm. Palm had a solid lock on the handheld market, but MS kept dogging them, and Palm kept screwing up, till MS overtook them in the market.
This discussion sounds like pure pundit BS. I still find it hard to believe that MS chose to lay off staff, with all the money they have laying around. 'Tis the season, I guess.
Everybody is all excited about Windows7 and how it's going to be so much better than Vista. So maybe they could try slapping a Windows7 capable sticker on the Zune, or rename it Zune7.
Run and catch, run and catch, the lamb is caught in the blackberry patch.
I can't imagine what it must be like to work in the Mac Business Unit at Microsoft knowing that all your efforts are going to nothing more than playing accounting games to hide the Xbox disaster.
It is staggering to grasp the magnitude of the Xbox diaster when you look at it:
* Over 4 billion dollars in losses on the first Xbox hardware
* Mac Business Unit moved into the Xbox division to cover up the losses
* Absolute worst and cheapest console hardware ever created with the Xbox 360
* Online fees for everyone playing online games effectively adding 50-150 dollars in extra revenue per console
* Three years on the market
And the E&D division still was only able to post a relatively tiny profit for 2008. Take away the profitable Mac Business Unit, the Xbox online fees, and other profitable parts of the E&D division and the Xbox 360 hardware is obviously still generating huge losses.
I will admit, I own a Zune. I got an 8GB model for Christmas this year (and yes, that is what I asked for). I have used iTunes (my Mother in law has an iPod) and the Zune software. I found the Zune software much more user friendly than iTunes and less bloated. The hardware seems solid, it has fast response, is easy to navigate, and good sound quality. I would be sad to see Microsoft drop the Zune line.
Too many people in the world are oblivious to the fact that there are other options except for an iPod. My wife has a 5 year old Creative Zen 8GB (HD based) that still works fine, and for Christmas she got a 16GB xFi model. We are happy with them. I just with more people would give them a chance.
I think the thing Apple really got right with the iPod is the marketing, and ease of buying songs (though the Zune market place is easy also, and you can buy songs from the Zune if you have WiFi setup on it). I do not think the controls are anything revolutionary, as Creative had a similar control theme before Apple. However, I think that iPod is as synonymous with MP3/portable media players as the name Xerox is with copiers (or at least used to be). I think over time it will change to where the iPod is no longer the dominant player, but it will take time.
Seriously, I've been amazed at watching the ipod over the years. They came up at 40 gig and it was quite remarkable. I bought an 80 gig model about 2 years ago when they had introduced those. But now you go to the stores and it's hard to buy a classic. They are pushing the nano.
That's usually the first sign of a product hitting it's peak in the business cycle. When they stop caring about the consumer, and start pushing the models which have the highest profit.
If I were MS, I'd stay in this market. Apple hasn't changed the ipod fundamentally since they introduced the color screen and videos.
Why can I buy 8 gig of microSD card for £30 but no manufacturer will sell me an mp3 player with 8 gig more capacity for £30 more? Is there a reason for this? Or are they just fixing prices.
While MSFT is profitable, the division the Zune is in has only recently become profitable. But that doesn't recognize the years of heavy losses. So if MSFT is your company and one division is under-performing financially and in the marketplace, you would have to consider cutting some products that aren't doing well. Zune is one of those products.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Hey, MS - try this out for size!
The next time you want to release a product in a market already saturated by a single large a and very popular competitor, try competing not on the coolness factor but on price/performance. You know, make the product "cheaper" with the same or better "features". If you can't do that, perhaps you don't have a value proposition to offer your potential customers. And if so, you shouldn't be surprised when they buy your competitor's product.
I know, sucks when you have to compete in a fair and free market - don't it?
"Gee, gone so zune?"
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.
It sounds like the entire E&D division is going to have a massive shakeup.
Zune hardware will get killed off and the software will move into Windows Mobile.
Xbox hardware won't get killed off right away but all investment in the platform is at an end. Microsoft will finish shutting down the remaining internal dev studios and continue to reduce Xbox staff while trying to keep up the illusion they are sticking around in the console market so they keep as many people paying online fees as possible over the next couple years as the 360 dies out in the market.
Windows Mobile is now the main focus with massive pressure to come up with something to publicly show after falling so terribly behind the past couple years. Mobile phone makers are rapidly standardizing on Android if you look at the release plans for 2009 and the massive number of Android based phone coming out.
Robbie Bach will most likely be gone sometime in 2009 with most of E&D shut down leaving pretty much just the WinMo stuff merged with Zune and as much of the Xbox mess migrated over to Microsoft's PC gaming efforts with a focus on Vista/Win7 exclusives.
They have always said that the Zune was a "long term Strategy". The biggest reason their sales are down is because of last years 30GB zune Price chopping. Even CNet said that they met their internal numbers. Fact is that Microsoft isn't trying to replace the ipod, and even if they are, so what? at least Apple has a competent competitor for their products instead of just a bunch of $29.99 Coby MP3 crappers from walgreens.
they say it is often more relevant then the comment above, all we know is its called the Sig!
That means Microsoft have not only managed to damage to MP3 market to the extent that Apple "won", but now they're dropping out too. If I weren't convinced they were just short-term reactionary fools I would believe they had it planned all along.
What am I going on about? Well, you see, back in the days just after iPod, Microsoft introduced this thing called PlaysForSure. It was a system to provide a variety of DRM options - single track purchase, promotion with timeout, monthly fee all-you-can-eat, limited play count, and so on. This in itself would have provided a superset of the functionality iTunes provided.
(For the record, where I stand: DRM must die. Three times. Horribly. Preferably acid bath.)
Sounds great, at least from a technical and business standpoint, right? Unfortunately, just to remind us that they're Microsoft, in order to get a PlaysForSure badge on your product, and to be allowed to use the system whatsoever, you have to pass certain certification processes. That includes making sure you have a good startup time, good inter-track delay time, fast database indexing, and so on.
Still sounds great? Aha, but just to remind us they're Microsoft, they're the people that design the protocol, and they make damn sure it's near-impossible to actually implement a good player from it. The database updates and queries are so horribly defined you'd struggle to get good performance out of a proper SQL-like database running on a PC, let alone a tiny little device with 1MB RAM. The requirement to support PlaysForSure means you must use MTP protocol, which is another botched abortion of a protocol. It also requires that if you use MTP you cannot use Mass Storage, further annoying your customers and very neatly if "accidentally" meaning they don't work on Macs. And then there's the encryption itself which is so horribly over-the-top and poorly implemented (you MUST use Microsoft's libraries) that it badly impacts player performance and its battery life.
So Microsoft screw the entire non-Apple MP3 market for a couple of years. Then they bring out their own PlaysForSure player. Except it's not PlaysForSure. You can imagine the language used where I worked (and presumably other companies). They decided that it was too hard to implement their own spec, so they make a player which doesn't comply to it. It's not even in the set at all - it's totally incompatible.
After an electronics-generation of fucking up the non-Apple MP3 market, then screwing up their own solution, and now after (very likely) ditching Zune, they've basically done almost exactly the right set of steps to put Apple into a lead that will be hard to make a dent into.
I stick with my decade old opinion that you don't partner with Microsoft - you watch your back.
Agreed. People who badmouth the Zune have either never owned one (the "lol zune sux!" crowd), or have only used the original 30 GB model (aka Toshiba Gigabeat) with 1.x firmware. The second gen Zunes are fantastic and I have never regretted buying one (80 GB model) after owning several generations of iPods.
I love the FM radio as I listen to NPR at work. I love the wireless sync and marketplace, which EVERY Zune model can use, but only the iPod Touch and iPhone are able to do. I love the big, vertically-oriented screen. I love the clean navigation menus on the device. I love the ZunePad, which is quicker and way more intuitive to use than the gimmicky Click Wheel.
I also really love the Zune software. It made me appreciate just how bad iTunes really is, which most seem to be in denial about, but ignorance is bliss as they say. I have every intention of buying another Zune when this one no longer serves my purposes.
If people would get over their prejudices about Microsoft and actually try the Zune, I'm sure they would be impressed by it. MS even deleted their own name from the product (it appears only at the bottom of the "About" screen) because of the popular belief that MS can't put out a "cool" product.
tl;dr: zune > ipod
Seeing as the zune and ipod are the same price, why WOULDN'T you pick the zune?
Because there are a lot more accessories and add-ons available for the iPod.
The iPod got off to a good start in terms of market share, which led to more accessories being made for it, which no doubt influenced more people to buy it.... classic positive feedback loop. It's like the OS market back in the 90s, in reverse-- there, Windows ruled the roost and the Mac was a tiny, shrinking niche. Walk into a CompUSA back then, and nearly everything on the shelves was for Windows. The Mac section was three shelves in literally the farthest corner of the store from the entrance.
With the Zune, instead of being the 800-pound gorilla in a given market, Microsoft is finding out how much fun it is to have to compete against that gorilla.
~Philly
The Entertainment and Devices division that makes the Zune and Xbox are't profitable outside of accounting gimmicks.
The Mac Business Unit has been dumped into the division to hide the Xbox fiasco's losses and there are other accounting games going on to add profits to the division.
Even worse for E&D is that even with the accounting games managing to eek out a tiny profit for 2008 it is getting close to the time where if Microsoft is willing to stay in the console market they are going to have to start once again spending the hundreds of millions to billions ramping up new hardware.
If I'm honest, can't say I do remember the closure of Bungie. Nice to see they can still make games when they're closed though (Halo 3: ODST)
So, MS only drivers, no Playforsure support and no Apple protected ACC support. Of course of this would have been a non issue if MS supported universal standards(a media player does not need customer drivers if it is just treated as removable drive) and if MS focused on DRM free music. In fact the primary driver that kept Apple in the forefront for so long is the music industry insistence on DRM and the computer industries support of that position. We will see how apple fares now that Amazon has cheaper drm free music, but I think Apple will be ok now that people are used to used going to iTunes.
But I don't think that MS has to exit the market, just remember that the pupose of MS is to provide the low cost option. The Xbox is successful because it is the cheaper than a PS3, as the xbox has no HD media capability. The Zune is not cheaper than any iPod, except for the touch, so why buy it. If a PC were as expensive than the mac, how many people would buy it? Sell a zune for $100, and it will be on the top of the charts, just like the xbox. Or they could do something innovative and include wireless cell phone access, like the Kindle, and inlcude one year of subscription service. But that would innovative, not what MS does.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Just because "there were plenty of people suggesting Microsoft should just exit the Zune hardware business entirely," just because the Zune has nothing in particular to offer and is doing poorly, does not mean that they will exit the Zune business.
One of the things I really admire about Microsoft is their tenacity and stick-to-it-iveness. If they think something is important, they'll stick with it and improve it with each release.
I worked at a former Fortune 500 company that just didn't have this tenacity. They had no real strategy, no sense of what was important and what wasn't beyond short-term industry buzz. Their basic strategy seemed to be "do whatever IBM was doing a year ago." And, whereever they drilled, if they didn't strike oil ten feet down they'd give up.
It was very frustrating to those of us who saw serious but fixable flaws in their hastily-released products and could never convince them to settle on what was important and hang in there.
Whether this will be the case with Zune is open to doubt. I have little respect for the Zune, I don't think Microsoft has any idea what they're doing, and I think it will go down as an ignominious failure like Microsoft Bob. But if they think it's important, I believe they'll stick with it and try to improve it, and when they do they have an impressive track record of getting something good enough to be counted a success.
They could uncripple the Zune, give it the ability to record FM broadcasts, provide unlimited wireless filesharing, and they'd have an overnight success... if they had the guts.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I don't see what anyone could possibly think was wrong with the Zune logo
Neither did Walmart*.
Here is a list of features I've found very useful on my iAudio G3 over the couple years I've owned it. Some seem obscure, and I never knew about them until I looked for them because I found a need. (I'm not saying the iPod lacks these features, since I just don't know).
Plus I have it set to work as a USB drive, and show/navigate my tracks via the directory structure (no ID3 info required). Just how I like it. And it runs on a standard AA for about a month of my typical usage.
So, I prefer lots of options, even if I never need some of them.
My only run in with a Zune was over Christmas. My kid brother bought one with his own $$. I offered him access to my movie/music collection if he wanted something for the 16 hour ride home. He declined, as the files would not play without installing a bunch of software and even then it was questionable. Then it crashed over newyears. Poor kid would have been better off is a (cracked)PSP.
Maria Bartaromo once pressed Jobs in a post-rollout interview on some of the iPods about the looming threat from Microsoft Zune, apparently forgetting who she was talking to (or possibly just knowing his celebrity without realizing it had nothing to do with fashion). His response was instantaneous as he responded "I don't know what you are talking about? Do you even KNOW anybody who has a Zune?" Maria, a fast talking New Yorker, was flabbergasted and after stumbling for words (rare) acknowledged that no she didn't. As they closed the segment, the anchors continued repeating to each other like bobble-heads "no, I don't know anyone ha, ha hahhh who has a Zune". It was classic.
Zune had to stand on it's own but had no legs.
Standing on your own without legs is no problem for Weebles. So how should Zune have wobbled without falling down?
The only thing dumbed down about Zune is the PC software... which is pretty much horrendous for navigation and tag management. That said, I never really cared for iTunes for library or tag management either.
If Microsoft could drop the price on all the units the way they did when they tried to liquidate their stock of brown 30G Zunes, I think they'd do much better. Some of the Apple fanboys will never turn away from their new iGadgets, but the Zune device's functionality is just as good IMO for most people and that's when price becomes the deciding factor.
For all of you iTunes-haters out there... Stop managing files by hand, learn what a meta-data is, and stop living like you're still using MS-DOS.
I bought a 30gb model for far less than a comparable iPod a couple of years ago and (other than it locking up on Dec 31) it has performed quite well. I'd like to upgrade to a 120gb model, but they are priced exactly the same as iPods right now.
If Microsoft wants to win in this space it has to compete both on features AND on price, and right now Zunes are physically bigger than iPods and less supported by 3rd party add-ons. Price seems to be the only path to success in the short to medium term. Microsoft has to take it to Apple in the pocketbook, but I'm not sure it has the Ballsimer to do it.
I've used both the Zune and iTunes desktop software and the Zune product is superior to iTunes in Windows. The Zune has this 'Social' feature where you can wirelessly sync with other Zuners, but there is not a critical mass of owners, so this is a wasted feature.
So, since Microsoft doesn't seem as daring as it once was to compete to win, the Zune will likely be orphaned in 2009...which should provide a good supply of clearance 120gb models for jut $99. I'll pick up a few and be happy, cuz it works at a price that I like.
Who wants to bet that the Zune authorization servers are going to get their plugs pulled?
The Zune problem was that they started with a great idea, and then removed its testicles in committee. PMP + Wifi? Yes. Music is something humans are hard-wired to share.
Then it hits committee. Share music? That's illegal! Oh wait, it depends? Well, even if it's not illegal, we need to monetize this feature. Just like "Vista-Capable" was a good idea, until they decided to change the standards to suit their suppliers. Xbox 360? You're on the money. Committees don't see shifts. People do. And when you give a committee lots of money and say "make version II", you see something very expensive. Netbooks? Microsoft saw them coming. That's why they came up with the UMPC specification. Oh wait, you mean something cheap? Again, committee think. It's why GM cars have all the cupholders.
And about the Zune having DRM (is what I heard), I don't really understand that because it comes with a built-in wireless system so you can share your music with any other nearby Zune. Which seems like the opposite of what DRM is trying to accomplish.
Aren't those shared songs DRM-wrapped, meaning they're exactly what DRM is trying to accomplish? DRM isn't about trying to prevent "sharing", but rather about trying to control what you can do with the music you've bought.
Anyway, I don't think it's really all about the Zune being "uncool". I'm going to go out on a limb and make the following claim: The problem people have with the Zune is not the Zune itself, but rather that it's yet another lame attempt by Microsoft to take over a market that they perceive as a threat. Microsoft (rightly) perceived that the iPod was an indirect threat to their OS as well as their WMA format, and their response was to release an "iPod killer" that failed to understand the MP3-player market to a laughable degree.
What software? The Zune software? How is that any worse than installing iTunes?
To their credit, they bought their way into the entertainment console market in only a generation when everyone told them it would be absolute suicide to even try. Next round if they can avoid the whole red ring of death fiasco they've got the market share now to be more than profitable.
Keyword graphs show the story...
http://www.realmeme.com/roller/page/realmeme?entry=zune_meme_rerun
Microsoft entered a market nearing its growth inflection point with a marginal product. They thought they could win through hype and Microsoft branding.
Microsoft Vista is failing for similar reasons.
When I was in Middle School, I bought a Muvo TX FM (I think that's its name) for $30 at Wal Mart. A whopping 256MB MP3 player.
But, it has all of those features. Play by folder and not by ID3 tags (though it even supports scrolling Asian character sets for those!), a graphic equalizer, sleep-off timer, FM tuner and microphone...
I've never purchased another one. It's tiny, functions as a USB drive, and I just sync it with my computer before I leave for work (or now school) every morning. Who cares how "cool" it is if only the earbuds leave your pocket?
DATABASE WOW WOW
Because iTunes works.
Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos
I have a brown Zune too. When I first got it, I absolutely loved it. 30 GB of storage, ability to play photos, videos and music either in headphones or on my TV. Then a strange thing happened... Last September I wanted to get a mobile device that allowed me to surf the web. I saw my friends' iPhones and thought it was a good experience. "No problem" I thought. I'll just check out this Windows Mobile 6 stuff. I started on a hunt to find a non-iPhone that browsed the web as well as an iPhone. I went to AT&T stores (since I had their service already though my contract had expired), Verizon stores and Sprint stores. At the time, every other phone's web surfing was a J-O-K-E compared to the iPhone. A joke. I can't tell you how much it pains me to say that, since I am in reality a Microsoft fan and have used their development products professionally for over a decade and a half.
So I got the iPhone 3G. My Zune was then in the glove compartment of my car for a few months. I pulled it out a few weeks ago to try out the Zune games that seemed to be taking off. What I used to think was a sleek, intuitive interface on the Zune now looked clunky. The entire device actually felt cheap. The Zune hadn't changed though - I did. I got used to the iPhone. But anyway, I upgraded my Zune firmware, installed the Zune Games and actually tried the default ones out. Texas Hold'em was actually fun. But man, the experience is nothing - NOTHING - like the iPhone.
I guess I'll try selling my brown Zune on eBay before they become totally worthless.
I'm a big tall mofo.
Microsoft needs to just get out of the hardware market. The Xbox 360 is cool, but I'm on my second one and that one is dying too. And my Zune is cool, but randomly buggy. Either that, or they need a better QA department.
That sounds almost as good as Shitass Perfuckers (at 1.11).
And to be honest, Microsoft really CAN afford it :oD
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
This is stupid. If it were _only_ "cool," it would not survive. The fact is that the "coolness" factor attracts people, but the ease of use and product performance keeps them. That's the way it works in quite a few industries, so this hate spread toward Apple is just anti-fanboiism, aka "jealousy."
I avoided the iPod for years - stuck with my MD as long as I could - simply because everyone else thought it was "cool." Yeah, pot calling kettle black. But then I got a Shuffle - the cheapest iPod - and it's the best player I could imagine. Simple to use and does exactly what I want. The thing I like best is that it's tiny and clips to my pocket so I always know where it is.
Like all of Apple's products, it's not for everyone - I think water and air are the only things that fill that bill - but it satisfies a large portion of the market; if people weren't happy, they wouldn't keep buying them. The stylishness is just a simple marketing trick. All companies try to do that - seen MS's ads for their programming tools in the trade rags? - but some end up being more successful at it.
Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
And what's going to happen to those DRM'ed songs once microsoft pulls the plug on the auth servers?
Thank you for taking the time to read my letter. While I'm not normally a customer or purchaser of Microsoft software, I have noticed that your Zune product (ridiculous marketing aside) is actually a nice product in it's third generation.
The interface is solid, the features good and the music store is DRM free. All of that makes the product actually pretty compelling. I want one.
Here's the thing, I am not a Windows user, yeah I know you think I should be but I'm not and won't be for the foreseeable future. So as a guy that uses a non MS platform I know that there are always things I have to give up for my freedom. Right now I'm giving up a Zune. It won't work on my platform. Now I'm not saying that I want Microsoft to support my platform, but I am saying that, you know, if it would give me whatever functionality I need to create a playlist or two, and sync my (incidentally paid for) music collection I'd buy one. Arguably I'd buy more than one. But I can't.
I might be stubborn or you might be, I'm not sure which one it is. I don't even think it matters. You can't make a better iPod than iPod. What you need to do is make a very compelling product. You almost did. I had to buy a Zen over your product because your product just doesn't support basic music syncing outside of using your own software. Sorry to tell you this but I'm not going to change my computing world just to listen to Boston on a Zune. You have to be the one to change if you want to count me as a paying customer. So what do you say? How about it? Just use industry standard interfaces to the hardware. I can't promise you'll be successful but I can promise you that you'd sell at least another Zune or two on top of what you're selling today. Think about it.
load "$",8,1
you and all the children posters forgot
Profit! or umm... unable to compete..... because we forgot how... because we're a monopoly and so .... um.... unable to.....
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
Here is the part I never got. Ok, two people both subscribe to the monthly service. They meet and pass songs back an fourth. Why in the heck did Microsoft / Record Companies limit the number of plays? What is the purpose? If it is tracking, then count the new songs at sync. It just seems like a really stupid way of doing things that misses the possibilities and actually saves Microsoft money on the download.
Works at what?
If you mean to say it works at hogging resources and weaseling its way into all sorts of other processes and applications where it is of dubious (at best) use, then sure, but if you mean to imply it's a better music player than just about any other option you're full of it.
As far as I'm concerned, the two single biggest drawbacks to iPods are that they cost twice as much and you actually have to install iTunes.
For the record, I still don't see what's so damned hard about making an MP3 player connect to a computer as a flash hard drive. Just let me copy/paste the files through whatever file browser I use, and skip this whole syncing nonsense if I don't want to do it. And for all the people who do (for some reason) find that their media player is the best tool for copying files onto their MP3 player, they can do so with any player they want rather than the one their player's manufacturer wants.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
This is that critical mass thing again. PlaysForSure was still early enough in the general maturity of the net that it's been kinda washed over.
But to pull that stunt *twice* makes an event that will show up at the more dangerous business-analysis-article level, and that's far harder to get away from. Also, it coincides with a strange emergence of audience maturity awareness not even present 8 years ago.
You used to form opinions about stuff from 3 newspapers and *the local retail store*. Products created their own gestalts. Something shows up new, "it was cool" ... because it showed up on the shelf.
Now we're asking each other about stuff, and *leveraging our own experts* so that the classical media begins to sound lame if they throw too much eggnog into their spinpuff.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Just because not everybody wants to be "cool"? I don't want "cool" things. I hate the ipod (I got one as a gift a while back) and I hated it to death, so i kept using my Creative instead.
So... you think it's cool to not be cool. Die hipster scum!
Kidding. I have a creative nomad 2 that is the same size as a discman and I do love it. I think of it as security: no one is ever, ever going to steal it because they think it's a discman, and you can't give those things away.
Can I buy some of your crickets? Will people have an exit path for the money they locked into zune points?
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
Bleh spelling.
Davey says hi.
My first Journal Entry ever, in 8 years! http://slashdot.org/journal/365947/aphelion-scifi-fantasy-horror-poetry-webzine
My only run in with a Zune was over Christmas. My kid brother bought one with his own $$. I offered him access to my movie/music collection if he wanted something for the 16 hour ride home. He declined, as the files would not play without installing a bunch of software and even then it was questionable. Then it crashed over newyears. Poor kid would have been better off is a (cracked)PSP.
Interesting that you don't provide information regarding the encoding of your movies and music. This being Slashdot, and given the circumstances, let me hazard a guess - Ogg Vorbis/Theora?
I agree that the New Years fiasco was inexcusable for a supposedly mass-market consumer product.
#DeleteChrome
I haven't used a Zune either, but from what I have heard, you can share music with anyone around you, but they can only listen to the song something like three times or for a couple of days.
Well, IMO the really dumb thing is - if a person wants to listen to music you're sharing, they have to come and physically find you. Then you initiate the "squirt".
Or is that no longer how it works? I hope so, because that design pretty much renders that feature useless for the vast majority of circumstances.
#DeleteChrome
You have come to a sad realization.
Cancel or allow?
Consider yourself spoken to.
The reason Zune failed is because you are not even close to being representative of the masses.
For most people, the walled garden is good. iTunes does enough and does it well enough to make it good to use. iPod does enough and does it well enough to make it good to use.
ZOMG it doesn't connect to $FUNKY_BSD_GNU_OS!!! Whatever shall we do?
You are the minority. I am the minority. Conform or subsist on mediocrity. There is no win, only fail.
Consider yourself spoken to.
I don't really understand that because it comes with a built-in wireless system so you can share your music with any other nearby Zune.
Unless things have changed since the first gen Zune, you only get to listen to downloaded-from-your-neighbor-through-WIFI songs 3 times before you can't listen to anymore.
That is indeed a prime example of DRM, if that is still the case. I haven't kept up with Zune 2.0. Maybe things changed?
Fact: Everything I say is fiction.
it's never going to be as "cool" as Apple
theres your problem for ya.
Its not my fault, someone put a wall in my way.
They don't need one.
All they have to do is outlast everyone else and manipulate the market to slowly gain share. Its one of the advantages of having so much cash in the bank.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
And about the Zune having DRM (is what I heard), I don't really understand that because it comes with a built-in wireless system so you can share your music with any other nearby Zune. Which seems like the opposite of what DRM is trying to accomplish. I have yet to see an iPod that does that.
If I remember correctly the music sharing was extremely limited. While satisfying to send a tune once you send it that person can only listen to it three times before they have to buy it, and they are not allowed to send it to anyone else. This may have been patched or changed in some way, but the only (cool) feature I might have been interested in getting a Zune for was a let down.
You can be "cool" simply by buying a shiny toy with an Apple logo? I guess "cool" isn't what it used to be.
> Seeing as the zune and ipod are the same price, why WOULDN'T you pick the zune?
1. It doesn't implement the massdrive USB spec -> Not possible to use as a harddrive (which is especially bad for the large-capacity one); there are drivers to download which makes it possible but it still means I cannot just plug it into any old computer and use it for files.
2. Calendars, addresses and notes: I use this functionality, especially the notes thing where you can hyper-link notes internally and to music/video on the drive. Geeky, yes, but for me it's useful. (Caveat: I haven't tried the newest firmware for Zune so these things might be available now.)
3. I live in Europe -> Can't buy a Zune
4. I use a Mac now and then -> Can't use the Zune with it
But of course my reasons might not be interesting for you, and instead the FM radio, Wifi etc. on the Zune, and if so you should definitely avoid the iPod.
I only wanted to mention that there are actual, feature-based reasons why someone might want to get an iPod rather than a Zune. And of course this comparison is only interesting for iPod Classic / Nano; iPod Touch is something else completely. I strongly suspect that iPod Classic is not selling that much any more...
It also requires that if you use MTP you cannot use Mass Storage, further annoying your customers and very neatly if "accidentally" meaning they don't work on Macs
Blaming Microsoft for the fact that Apple doesn't support MTP is ridiculous. Apple locked down iTunes so that you can't really use it with other players, and they tried to lock down the iPod so that you can't use it with other music management applications.
As for "screwing the entire non-Apple MP3 market", I think you give Microsoft too much credit; Microsoft has had virtually no impact either way. If you want an MP3 player, there are plenty of choices that cost almost nothing.
MP3 players are dead anyway; like PDAs, they are just becoming part of phones.
The zune was never going to be a the ipod killer that MS hoped it would be and it is difficult to see why MS entered the market.
Basically if you are going up against the gorilla that is Apple in the ipod market, you have to have something that differentiates markedly. The only thing the zune had was the wireless sharing. However two problems with that. Firstly it was hopelessly crippled by MS usually DRM fan boys. Secondly it relied on enough mass usage of the zune so that there was a chance someday you might meet another zune user. If you took that away you were left with a nice MP3 player competing with all the other nice non apple MP3 players in a sea made by Apple. And remember an ipod is not just a music player but is the focal point of a whole industry providing ipod addons. Zune never had a chance.
The question is what could compete with ipod? History has shown that it would either take a whole new technology shift(wireless music ???) or Apple to make a mis-step. So far Apple has shown they are not likely to do the latter, in fact you have to be impressed how they do not sit back and wait for the competition to catch up, but are constantly pushing the envelope. This makes it very hard to compete against. You only have to look how a few months after the zune was produced apple produced the itouch so totally changing the market before the zune ever got going.
So what about MS. Probably what they should of done instead of spending millions on Zune was got into phones. Here they have a slight advantage in that their software runs the corporate world so if they made a phone that seamlessly connected then corporate world would probably buy a few.
However even here they have a few problems. Firstly it would eat away at their mobile OS market, since they would be competing against the same people who buy there software from them at the moment. This would almost certainly push these same manufacturers to android and the like.
Secondly MS hardware sucks. They just do not have the ability to integrate the software and hardware into one unit, in the same way apple do. This must be partly to do with their reliance on 3rd party hardware suppliers to do the hardware design, then having to fit their software to it.
In the end of the day, MS should really concentrate on doing what it knows best, making operating systems for gray boxes
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
It would be a first for them to cut failing business which was created to keep a competitor in check. Microsoft has many money losing businesses, ones which lose billions annually but their purpose is not necessarily all about being profitable, it's about limiting the growth of the market leader. Windows CE was created to slow or stop Palm's growth beyond the PDA and Microsoft has lost over $15 billion on that. The Xbox was created to slow or stop Sony from growing the PlayStation market beyond the console and Microsoft has lost many billions on that. The Zune was created to slow the Apple iPod market and they've lost a billion or two on that.
So with Steve Balmer still in charge and the Windows OS making up over 80% of Microsoft's profits and with huge profit margins, there is no history to show a willingness at Microsoft to cut any of these market protection based projects. Cutting the Zune would probably be the first one to be cut and not succeeded at its goal. IMO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
On the sales rank charts at Amazon, Zune is usually ahead of everyone except Apple. A typical sample of the top 20 will be about 16 iPods, with a Zune somewhere in the middle, and a couple other non-Apple players in the bottom half.
What I don't understand is, why Microsoft hasn't (That I have seen) tried to compete on the Zune's price with the iPod. Every time I've ever looked at a Zune, it has always been more expensive than an iPod. As stated, Microsoft won't be able to compete on the 'cool' factor. But essentially, what is a Zune or an iPod? It is the size and capacity of these devices that has always been a winner.
In New Zealand (Where Zunes aren't available), you can't really get a high capacity (Over say 8/16 GB) portable media player at a reasonable price, other than an iPod. So if you're after a large capacity, small portable media device, you'll look at your options:
1) Does it play MP3s? (And this would now be, Does it play video. h.264 MPEG-4 has won that battle, so don't try to fight a format war).
2) Which is the cheapest one that supports the features I want?
Microsoft needed to under cut Apple on the price. They have deep enough pockets.
are you saying that Microsoft is actually facilitating the illegal distribution of copyrighted music to other people via a peer-to-peer (P2P) system on the Zune ?
Can I put a spell on those who can't spell?
Your wheels are loose and they're losing their grip, good you're there.
I was an early adopter and had bought one of the first RIo's. It was expensive, poorly built, had a cruddy UI, and could hold at most 15 songs at 128 K. But it was small and allowed me to have music while mountain biking. My cousin, a sales manager for a domestic high end audio company back then told me that the MP3 player to wait for would be from SONY. After all, Sony was a world leader in audio and personal electronics. They had invented the walkman. They had years of acclaimed industrial design, a mature sales and distribution network, high customer awareness, efficient marketing, and even owned a record label that would certainly facilitate a media sales conduit. So what happened? When we talk about the Zune's inability to gain market traction, I believe there are lessons to be learned from Sony. If a world leader in portable audio electronics can't make a dent, then there might be more to this than some "cool" factor or "apple sucks" reasoning.
There is no security when liberty is sacrificed.
Any Windows 7 beta user will tell you that Microsoft are definitely capable of "cool". I fully predict Win7 to be a resounding success, both in sales and in actual performance and usability terms. This is personal, but I find it to be superior to OS X even in its current beta state.
Success aside, the "coolness" of this OS could lead to a rise in the number of MS fanbois (yes they do exist). This, combined with MS's newfound "coolness" (assuming it persists), could just breath new life into their Joe Sixpack consumer products like the Zune.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it -- I'm huge!
Saw this in an article on Plan 9 and it pretty much applies to the Zune.
There is a lesson here for ambitious system architects: the most dangerous enemy of a better solution is an existing codebase that is just good enough.
Except the iPod and iTunes are more than 'just good enough' they're really good for most people
Always wondered why MS doesn't just come to slashdot for help. We could save them a lot of wasted time and money :)
-- taking over the world, we are.
Recently I decided to update my old 30GB 5G iPOD as the battery wasn't holding a charge after 3 years of use. Although the iPOD is a great product it had allot of short comings for me with the major one being a lack of an equaliser. Well after a few months (Im patient) of getting specs of different media players and putting them in a spread sheet with points added for features I ended up purchasing a Cowon O2 pmp. I was slightly skeptical about the device when I selected it but now I have it there are zero regrets. The interface is just great and it has that missing 10 channel equaliser and a great high res display that put even the iPhone to shame. What really sets the O2 aside for me is the ability to play "any video or audio file format", yep FLAC mkv you name it and the O2 will play it. So my advice to Microsoft is go buy Cowon as they make the best pmp out there right now.
You do realize the iPod is on par cost with the Zune right?
'Microsoft, by now, should be realizing that it's never going to be as "cool" as Apple,
The iPod is not only cool (don't care), but it is good as well. The Zune is neither.
Interesting how you turned "less is more" into "dumbed down".
(A)bort, please
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
While I do agree with the thrust of your argument; MS just cut Flight Sim. They have also killed things like Plays for Sure, MSN (ISP) for Mac, Windows Media for Mac, a various other apps, which certainly served the same purpose of keeping others "in check".
I never do this, but "Mod Parent Up", +4 Insightful/Informative
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
WHy do you want to make ma laugh ....
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
they cut Pen for Windows too but that was after they pretty much killed the one company at the time who was really building momentum, Go Inc. As far as Mac based apps go, Microsoft has very little strength or leverage on that platform. There is only Apple distributing and they have their own stores. Is Flight Sim really in a market which has or had the ability to threaten Microsoft's market position?
There is one app, Microsoft Money, which was threatened by Intuit's Quicken. Microsoft tried to tie MS Money to other products to beat Quicken but for some reason that failed. But then again, Quicken has not done anything to threaten Windows, they pretty much only support Windows and have a half effort still doing a Mac app. If they came out with a Linux version, MS would pull MS Money out or back one of the others and spend a couple of billion trying to knock Quicken down.
So while the iPod market still gets into many many Windows users hands, brings in Apple iTunes, and puts that pretty Apple logo in their mind for the next time they want a new PC. Well I just don't see them dropping the Zune. The iPod market is too big of a market threat to Windows to just leave it all alone. I don't think they'd ever drop the Xbox or MSN and their search. I'd me very surprised if they did drop it while the iPod still dominated the market.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Yeah I wasn't very clear about Flight Sim, I thought they would hang onto it just to keep people away from OSS like X-Plane. While the realistic flight sim is a small category, they owned it, and kept it tied to Windows. Many OS's can use X-Plane- though again it is certainly a niche. I do expect that MS will make sure Flight Sim works on any new Windows version for a long time.
from what I read, they are not terminating the product, just the development. It is a very mature product and probably quite stable by now and they figure they can continue selling it without requiring much of any software dev work to keep it going.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I'm just angry that Microsoft axed the entire Flight Simulator team.
I bought an original 30Gb refurbished Zune last year. I don't use it a lot, but when I do I enjoy the experience, I have put videos on it for my daughter (3 years old), pod casts, pictures, and any music that I want.
Two months ago Microsoft changed the details of their Zune Marketplace subscription offereing unlimited downloads for $15 per month. Not too different from Rapsody and the such, however there is a silver lining, you also get to download and keep 10 songs per month which they remove their DRM from. Some music is also in mp3 format. That 10 songs sold me on that subscription and I signed up, and have taken advantage of the service as much as I can. (BTW you can use the service on three PCs and two Zunes) Maybe it is just a ply to increase their numbers, but it worked for me.
Personally I hope they don't can the line. They have some work to do, but it is a solid product, just not as "cool" as an iPod.
I agree with your interpretation, but I think they are dead wrong. A highly graphical flight sim isn't the same a solid word processor, it needs frequent update to satisfy the graphics junkies. Maybe they will figure that out, or maybe its just not worth it to them anymore. Who knows.
I agree 100%. I've had other mp3 players (like the Sansa) that just acted as a hard drive. What I liked best about that is I was able to preserve the eccentric directory structure I use to organize my music. The 1.xx versions of the Zune software weren't that bad, but when 2.0 came out, they pretty much killed all the features I liked, and added a bunch I hated. Worse than that, once the Zune software detects a newer version of the software or firmware is available, it won't let you continue until you update. Which makes me very angry, seeing as every update is worse than the last. But iTunes isn't any better. If AOL is the herpes of the computer world, iTunes would have to be the tapeworm. It moves in to your computer's bowels, often bringing with it other forms of parasites (like Yahoo! toolbar, etc), consuming resources and making your computer feel generally lethargic and vitamin-deprived. The only way to get rid of it is a long and painful process. So as a rule of thumb, I pretty much stay away from any handheld device that wants to "sync" to my computer. So the Zune is no worse than the ipod. They are equally crappy pieces of crap.
The path to enlightenment is truly through homemade drugs!
you actually have to install iTunes.
Who told you that?
I still don't see what's so damned hard about making an MP3 player connect to a computer as a flash hard drive. Just let me copy/paste the files through whatever file browser I use, and skip this whole syncing nonsense if I don't want to do it.
So don't use iTunes and just do it. While prefer to use iTunes, I can just connect my iPod and it shows up and is usable just like a memory stick. I've dragged & dropped songs into the iPod.
I have an iRiver also that I can drag and drop rather than use their software.
or maybe they have something showing up on their console... yup, who knows.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
The graphic equalizer for the iPod (from what I've seen personally, they may have improved it) consists of presets. Rock, Jazz, etc. You'd think that awesome wheel could be used to let you scroll up and down a few bars on an equalizer.
I was really disappointed when I got my hands on an iPod from a buddy and tried it out for a day or two. One thing Apple has usually been good at is including better software by default compared to Windows (compare GarageBand to Sound Recorder, or iPhoto to MS Paint). You'd think they would have done a better job on the iPod's software.
Random Thoughts From A Diseased Mind (Not For Dummies)
Actually, PlaysForSure was rather different in the grand scheme of things. Plays For Sure was a device and vendor agnostic certified compatibility layer. Which meant that a user could buy a DRM'ed track from Rhapsody or Napster or MSN and have it work in a player from any number of hardware makers. Essentially, it was the open DRM scheme that people have been hoping for, except it all filters through MS's coffers.
I feel like Microsoft has been suffering from shortsighted business practices. Plays for Sure is exactly the sort of platform play that MS is good at, and which might take years of concerted effort to catch on. Instead, they threw it out for the Zune, which they could control end-to-end but which wasn't worth bothering about.
Let me posit a parallel explanaiton for what happened to the Zune. It is a regular off-the-shelf greybox MP3 player, and just isn't anything special. It allows you to buy music from MSN (which they proved nobody should do anyway), and wirelessly share music (in a way that is functionally useless). Sony tried, and failed, with exactly the same play for exactly the same reason: So what? The iPod was lighter, smaller, and had a pleasing UI. Now it is entrenched in every aspect. The Zune, on the other hand, might as well be another Samsung or Archos or Qbe or any other greybox MP3 maker. Add in that the Zune management software is even worse than iTunes, and you have an ok player in a market where it needs to be an amazing one.
The ______ Agenda
Somehow I just don't think the 360 fanbase is well matched to Flight Sim, nor the input device. But hey it's MS so anything could happen.
The UI on the device was great. I liked it much more than iPod UI. Too bad the hardware sucked ass. They should port the software to run on iPod, as a parting shot, and provide a single click installer that would flash Zune software into reasonably recent iPod models. I, for one, would do it.
You're joking right? When the Zune launched the media you shared could only be played 3 times or for 3 days after you shared whichever came first. Also DRM was tacked onto any media that was shared regardless if the original had DRM or not. Suppose you wanted to share a recording of your child singing the ABCs with your brother. With a Zune, that recording would expire automatically even though there was no hint of copyright on the original. Currently restrictions have somewhat been loosened but the indiscriminate DRM conversion still exists.
The ability to use Wi-Fi exists on the iPod touch. "Squirting" not so much.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
"Who told you that?"
Apple.
My Zen Stone does that as well. I am aware that there are MP3 players on the market which do this. I am not aware, however, of anyone else who can use their iPod in that way (although perhaps the Shuffle could, I admit to simply not caring about that one at all). In fact, last I knew, most iPods required some sort of activation in iTunes before they work at all, though I may have misunderstood that. Is it possible to even acquire iPod drivers without installing iTunes?
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
The Zune 30 (1st-gen) had a graphic EQ, but it was dropped from later players. This is disappointing (as a lacking feature) but I honestly don't care because the audio output quality, at least using the Premium earbuds, is quite good enough. It would probably bother some people, though.
Balance I don't think either Zune or iPod have, though I could be wrong about that.
Zune will automatically turn off if left in sleep long enough, but I'm not sure what the period is (doesn't appear to be settable). Don't know about iPod.
Mic and voice recording are present on the Zune. No iPod, not even the Touch, has this.
FM tuner is also present in all Zunes, and missing in all iPods. (On a side note, Sansa players can record radio, which Zunes can't - but Zunes can mark songs heard on the radio for later download.)
Overall, by the features you list, the Zune comes out at least as good as the iPod. I'm honestly not sure what "dumbing down" the Zune has, lack of an EQ (supposedly to extend battery life and reduce cost) aside.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Technically, no the files are not "DRM wrapped" as that would modify the files themselves. Instead, they go into a special folder on the Zune with associated metadata that limits the number of times you can play each song.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Now that I've finally bough all the accessories they cut my feet off.
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
Could timothy be an more pro apple with regards to the zune. I personally don't have any fellings with regards to the zune. I do not like the ipod or any version therein. First it has always been overpriced especially with regards to storage size compared to other pmps. Second all apple did was take the idea of a pmp even though there were many other pmp's out there. Third all very large group of people buy the ipod simply because it is an apple brand product. A big reason why the ipod is more popular is because the advertise all the time on TV, radio, magazines, online, etc. Most other pmp manufactures do little to nothing to advertise across any decent amount of media. Creative has had much better products and much greater storage space and a much more reasonable price of the years. Even currently they have a product called Zen X-FI that has wireless and 30 GB as well as video/pictures, etc. all of which is the size of a standard credit card with the thickness about 1/5 of an inch if that. It also has the ability to act as a media server wireless with your computer. People should try other products and check out the reveiws for other companies products. If people did this then we would see innovations, and don't say Apple does this because it isn't true Apple historically has used other companies ideas and marketed them as there own. This would be ok if they didn't act like they came up with this idea. Until innovation happens we are stuck with the same old stuff and we have people buy things based on what is in style at the moment. People should not just go along with the crowd. That is why I hope Microsoft doesn't drop the zune but instead redo the product, especially the software side of it, into something new and better.
When did MS ever get anything right the first time? They have always put out crap and spoon fed it to their loyal zealots (usually running an IT department) and slowly made improvements to the point that it became passable and, subsequently, locked into the other things they sell that were already passable. Anyone remember running NT before service pack 2? Anyone try rolling a Vista image? How about early versions of IE? Frankly, I thought Windows 95 was just four years of beta testing Windows 98.
This has been the MS way. If they quit the Zune, that will be a major shift that says if it doesn't work right after the first couple of tries, we're not going to keep on. That line of reasoning would almost force and attitude of: We had better make it right (or pretty close to right) the first time.
While I and many others would welcome this new attitude, I'll believe it when I see it.
I hear a call for a death match. Tie FlightSim to the Xbox network let there be war. ;-) I can see it now, a Piper Cub with a lazer weapon strapped to its wing.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
I bought it originally because I had a PC and I thought it might work well with MediaPlayer. I was right and I was wrong. Under the first version (I think 9) it worked ok, but once I upgraded to the suggested MP10, it was a huge pain. I think the video was originally a nice feature, but again, DRM made things a pain. I had music I legally owned that it wouldn't play.
Then, of course, accessories were next to impossible to find. Want a rugged rubber case (like my zCover for the iPhone)? Not going to find one (at least not in your first 5 stores you visit). I walked into Fry's, which is a geek supermarket on steroids, and they have one shelf (back then). Now there's maybe a little more, but you'll find two AISLES of stuff for the iPod.
When the iPhone came out, there was finally an iPod killer. Zune made a great try, but it's M$ after all. They had to keep corporate interests. Now my iPod Video sits on the shelf, while I go everywhere with the iPhone. I'm listening to it right now at work.
One last thing killed the Zune for me. "Lock" doesn't. Yeah, I can't change songs, but the unit powers up to show you the lock symbol, which the iPod doesn't do. May not sound like much, but I make a 4 hour ride monthly on my motorcycle. With the Zune in my motorcycle jacket pocket, set to "Locked", the unit would die far before the end of my ride. The unit would get touched, power up, show the "locked" for awhile and then power down. I can make the 8 hour round trip with my iPod and iPhone set with the lock on.
Maybe physically, I recall the Zune defenders exclaiming the virtues of its "wide screen", but it had the exact same resolution as the iPods of the time. More FUD for people who don't read spec sheets.
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
The vast majority of the music on the Zune store is 320kbps MP3's. I believe 80% was the last number I saw.
Hell yeah, I mean they do have the the code for the combat version of Flight Sim, I just can't remember the name. Seriously though, I really miss flight/space sims. That is one of the best genres if you ask me. Freespace, xWing, Tie Fighter, F16, F18 oh hell yeah!
I have a Sansa that works like that, and I really, really wish it didn't. Trying to manage dozens of gigs of MP3s by hand and decide which ones I want to put on there is a disaster (not to mention the abortion of a UI the thing has, but that's another story entirely). Once the files are actually on it (and as long as I only want to listen to specific albums or put it on shuffle), it's fine, but it reminds me why I stopped manually organizing large numbers of files like that many years ago and never looked back. I definitely understand why some people like it in some situations, but if you're indecisive or like to change what you have on your MP3 player on a regular basis, it can be a royal pain in the ass and fairly time-consuming.
I do agree with your opinion of iTunes...on Windows. On OS X, it's rather nice and acts closer to how I want than anything else I've tried on any OS, which will come in handy with the used iPod I seem to be inheriting, although it's been getting a bit bloated in the past few releases. I refuse to install it on my PC, though, because I am in no mood to put up with all the crap you already mentioned.
that, and "story" are my favorite tags.
music lover since 1969
I used to fly on the old Falcon F16 over modem and one of they guys build peddles to lay down bombs better. it was fun.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
The sync of meta-info allows all sorts of extra functionality. First of all, people that say "I'll just put it into folders" are rather silly. You're totally disregarding all sorts of really useful metadata.
Playlists generated on the computer - or generated on the portable device - that sync both ways. Play counts and ratings, which feed into dynamic, rule-based playlists. The ability to quickly establish "sets" that synchronize, that include multiple artists, albums, etc, while still maintaining easy access to an alphabetical list of artists. Or albums. Or genres.
It's like somebody trying to manually manage all of their photographs. Works great for 100. Works somewhat alright for 1,000. Totally unworkable with 10,000. It becomes more and more work, which is what computers are supposed to do, right? What Picasa/iPhoto are to photos, iTunes/(insert media player here) are to music. They allow you not just to use your music but to manage it. Let the computer do the work.
± 29 dB
We, Microsoft, being number 1 software company for Apple Macintosh OS X don't have any kind of support for that device on OS X. Why? It is not they are incapable, I can't imagine how complex application their Office/OS X must be.
That is the question Windows Mobile team ask themselves too. I recently plugged a iPhone (I reject to buy) to a Windows XP box and very impressed with its compatibility down to photo import. Try to connect a Windows Mobile to OS X and see what happens. (address book and net connect doesn't count, even Nokia S40 can do it).
Interesting. My phone has all those features, plus a camera, games, and it's a phone! I know you will ask, the answer is 1 GB.