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UC Berkeley Offering Starcraft Course

The Tumeroks blog reports that the University of California, Berkeley is now offering a class on Blizzard's Starcraft real-time strategy game. "This course will go in-depth in the theory of how war is conducted within the confines of the game Starcraft. There will be lecture on various aspects of the game, from the viewpoint of pure theory to the more computational aspects of how exactly battles are conducted. Calculus and Differential Equations are highly recommended for full understanding of the course. Furthermore, the class will take the theoretical into the practical world by analyzing games and replays to reinforce decision-making skills and advanced Starcraft theory."

148 comments

  1. Who woulda thunk by Reddragon220 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Who ever would have thought that the words "Zerg Rush" would have a legitimate chance of showing up on a final?

    1. Re:Who woulda thunk by pak9rabid · · Score: 4, Funny

      Who ever would have thought that the words "Zerg Rush kekekekkekekeeke ^_^" would have a legitimate chance of showing up on a final?

      There, fixed that for ya.

  2. Will there be a zert-rush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will it be possible to zerg-rush through the course?

  3. A question ... by psergiu · · Score: 4, Funny

    Do you think the students will rush this course ?

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    1. Re:A question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will there be any lurkers?

    2. Re:A question ... by jo_ham · · Score: 5, Funny

      The cost of the course is 50 minerals and 200 Vespene gas.

      Prerequisites: Barracks, Robotics Lab.

    3. Re:A question ... by ookabooka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Depends on the course number really. NR20 would make the course a bit longer and focus on late game aspects.

      As an anecdote, my buddies would join a game (no rules), all selecting terran, and then immediately rush a player simultaneously with all our SCVs, and then move on to the next player after their probes were dead and weren't building any, repairing each others SCVs as neccesary. We would then move onto the next player. If we had 4 people we always won 3v3 obviously, with 3v3 we would win immediately about 90% of the time assuming no one quit. Many people complimented us on our bizzare strategy :-D Maybe I should send the prof an email.

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    4. Re:A question ... by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're graded based on clicks per minute.

    5. Re:A question ... by Leord · · Score: 1

      Can someone tell me how this is sourced to Tumerok, when StarCraftWire.net reported it first, and Tumerok even got it from there (as well as links to original news item). http://www.starcraftwire.net/blog/comments/study-starcraft-for-college/

    6. Re:A question ... by beluv · · Score: 0

      Vespene?! You mean it's not Lesbian gas?

    7. Re:A question ... by jo_ham · · Score: 4, Funny

      Lesbians don't play Starcraft!

      Although Kerrigan might be a lesbian - why else would she keep fending off the Toatally All Awesome Jim Raynor's advances.

    8. Re:A question ... by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      You'll be defeated by my bunker wall!!!!

    9. Re:A question ... by WarJolt · · Score: 1

      Supply depots wall!!!

    10. Re:A question ... by Cowmonaut · · Score: 3, Informative

      Cause that's where the non-professional journalist / not-even-amateur blogger submitter got the story. Duh. Easiest answers are usually the best.

    11. Re:A question ... by Leord · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not hard to rectify! =D I guess not though =(

    12. Re:A question ... by Cornflake917 · · Score: 5, Informative

      I feel a little nerdish for doing this, but....

      There's no such thing as a Robotics Lab in Starcraft. There is, however, a Robotics Support Bay and a Robotics Facility, but those are Protoss buildings. Having a Terran and a Protoss prerequisite makes so sense. Perhaps you meant a Physics Lab? Now if you excuse me, I have to dodge the incoming projectiles that have been thrown at me by people who don't give a shit.

      *ducks

    13. Re:A question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      apparently you don't play the game much...

      one aspects of the grading should be:

      physical = (# of clicks + # of hotkeys - # of wrong-key-pressed) * Intra-class Battle Win Ratio / Days of Class

    14. Re:A question ... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      I knew Robotics Lab wasn't quite right. It's been a very long time, and my Starcraft discs wont install under 10.5 (or was that Elite Force? one of my retro games needs classic to install, even if it has a universal binary once it's all up and running).

      I would argue that in order to take a class on Starcraft, you'd be able to capture a Terran SCV and build yourself both prerequisites though.

    15. Re:A question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lesbians don't play Starcraft!

      Yes we do.

    16. Re:A question ... by cdrdude · · Score: 1

      Because they didn't report it first either? The posting date on the article is from January 27. This topic was posted by the student teaching the decal on January 22, to a popular foreign (i.e. not Korean) starcraft website. Or you could just link to the facebook group, or the class website.

      --
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    17. Re:A question ... by Bob-taro · · Score: 1

      I feel a little nerdish for doing this, but....

      Okay, *THAT* has to be one of the funniest things I ever read on slashdot! We celebrate nerdishness. You'll probably be modded "informative" if anything.

      --
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    18. Re:A question ... by forkazoo · · Score: 1

      I feel a little nerdish for doing this, but....

      There's no such thing as a Robotics Lab in Starcraft. There is, however, a Robotics Support Bay and a Robotics Facility, but those are Protoss buildings. Having a Terran and a Protoss prerequisite makes so sense. Perhaps you meant a Physics Lab? Now if you excuse me, I have to dodge the incoming projectiles that have been thrown at me by people who don't give a shit.

      *ducks

      Wasn't it possible to capture enemy buildings? It's been ages since I played starcraft, but I seem to vaguely recall it being possible. IMO, it'd be pretty sweet to have, for example, a Zerg superweapon that requires capturing both a specific Terran and a specific Protoss building as prerequisites.

    19. Re:A question ... by FiveRings · · Score: 1
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    20. Re:A question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you're psychic... But would you have guessed +5 Informative?

      That, and the new system doesn't like me posting anonym

    21. Re:A question ... by pyrosim · · Score: 1

      In Brood War, the Dark Archons could capture units (including building building units), but that's it. There is no way to capture buildings directly.

    22. Re:A question ... by bennomatic · · Score: 1

      It was modded informative! Awesome!

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    23. Re:A question ... by renegadesx · · Score: 1

      Just do the Windows install under WINE, still works flawlessly for me

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    24. Re:A question ... by brkello · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ahem, this is untrue. The zerg could capture Terran command centers thus creating zerg human hybrids that you could run in to enemy units and blow themselves up. I think the grand parent was thinking of Command and Conquer though, where taking over buildings was possible.

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    25. Re:A question ... by Kerrigann · · Score: 1

      Lesbians don't play Starcraft!

      Although Kerrigan might be a lesbian - why else would she keep fending off the Toatally All Awesome Jim Raynor's advances.

      I'm psychic... if every time he talked to you YOU got glimpses of his "lonely nights in the barracks" involving thoughts of you, you wouldn't want to date him either...

      P.S. I'm a lesbian, starcraft playing, copyright-infringement-nickname-having woman. I couldn't NOT reply to this post.

      P.P.S My nick did not come from starcraft, but for the sake of argument, I'll pretend like it does.

      P.P.P.S. Now my girlfriend wants to kill Jim Raynor :/

    26. Re:A question ... by jo_ham · · Score: 1

      You sound like my ideal woman! Except for being a lesbian and all..

      My lonely nights in the barracks must continue, and I don;t get to be Jim!

    27. Re:A question ... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      Just do the Windows install under WINE, still works flawlessly for me

      God, I was running Starcraft in WINE way back when it was a super popular game such that that everyone in America was still playing it.

      I think it was one of the first games they ever worked on getting working with WINE.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    28. Re:A question ... by Leord · · Score: 1

      That's very true. Somehow it missed the global spread that we did with a post on N4G and other places. Obviously the original post is the actual Syllabus, and possibly paper posters in Berkeley. It's always tricky, but since TL didn't even report it themselves, the first site on the net to report it was SCW. We even sat on the news over the weekend, and no one else reported it. After our report, all of a sudden everyone found the Syllabus. Coincidence? Nah, don't think so...

    29. Re:A question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's just playing hard to get. She's a telepath, you know. She knows what buttons to push to hold the power while still keeping him interested.

    30. Re:A question ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P.P.P.S. Now my girlfriend wants to kill Jim Raynor :/

      Mullholland Starcraft!

    31. Re:A question ... by wave-E · · Score: 1

      No, in a game against terran, 'toss can mind control an SCV to build terran buildings and units. It's possible to have both buildings. =)

    32. Re:A question ... by renegadesx · · Score: 1

      The origional Unreal and Half Life were 2 others that also worked under WINE perfectly back in the day too. Unreal Tournament and Quake II & III had Linux binaries as well. The FPS genre did quite well under Linux in the 90's

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    33. Re:A question ... by forkazoo · · Score: 1

      No, in a game against terran, 'toss can mind control an SCV to build terran buildings and units. It's possible to have both buildings. =)

      Ahh, it's all slowly coming back to me. In fact, as near as I can tell, I was thinking of the Zerg capturing terran command center. In most of my PVP games of starcraft all those years ago, it was terran v. Zerg, so the protoss mind control didn't happen that often. Still, it was awesome when it did!

    34. Re:A question ... by Cornflake917 · · Score: 1

      I don't think you have read this entire thread. The GP and GGP were saying you couldn't directly take over buildings in Starcraft (excluding the zerg queen being able to infest a Terran command center, but really it still becomes a Zerg building type (Infested Commanded Center)). Neither GP nor GGP were implying that it was impossible to have both buildings, just that there was no way to directly convert them to your side (like command and conquer).

    35. Re:A question ... by wave-E · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right, I didn't read the entire thread. My apologies. But at least it helped me to figure out Slashdot's interface a bit better.

    36. Re:A question ... by snowgirl · · Score: 1

      The origional Unreal and Half Life were 2 others that also worked under WINE perfectly back in the day too. Unreal Tournament and Quake II & III had Linux binaries as well. The FPS genre did quite well under Linux in the 90's

      Oh yeah. I was playing all the games that our LAN party played on Linux, while everyone else was using Windows. Well, except the one who ran OSX.

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
  4. kekekekekeke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    kekekekekeke

  5. Campaign Editor... by winphreak · · Score: 1

    They could make some use of the Campaign Editor to create maps for specific examples, whether it be theory or history based.

    Also, would be interesting to see the course material leak online, since plenty of people can go along with examples.

    --
    "I'm a well-wisher, in that I don't wish you any specific harm."
    1. Re:Campaign Editor... by cdrdude · · Score: 4, Informative

      The class website has already posted the first three weeks of homework assignments, and the syllabus. There are sections for notes and for classwork, but they are blank. From the syllabus, this is the projected course load:

      (Tentative) Course Outline:
      Week 1: Orientation / Competitive Gaming Industry Overview / * StarCraft Boom in Korea
      Week 2: Units, Strength, Weakness, Attributes, Stats
      Week 3: Fighting Micro and Unit Use
      Week 4: Army Movement and Positioning
      Week 5: Expo and Macro
      Week 6: Building Placement and Base Layout
      Week 7: Scouting and Counters
      Week 8: Harass
      Week 9: Overloading the Enemy, Multi-plays
      Week 10: Economic Basis, Micro vs Macro
      Week 11: Timing and Evaluation of Resources
      Week 12: Deception
      Week 13: Mindset and Series Play
      Week 14: Tournament

      About the use of the campaign editor, I think it's likely that they will make use of it briefly to outline specific situations. However, there are third party starcraft map editors that are more powerful than the built-in one, and for any custom maps, it's likely that SCMdraft will be the map editor of choice. Based off of the course syllabs, my guess is that they will focus on pro maps both new and old, and all-time favorites.

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  6. Taiwan went a different way with this by xianfa · · Score: 4, Funny

    They decided to open a Porn Appreciation Course, citied in TFA http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_3158640.html?menu=news.quirkies

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    1. Re:Taiwan went a different way with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read the article... interesting
      Apparently, to pass the course the students must give a 15 minute oral...

  7. Starcraft theory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't get it.
    Next time, we'll have a course on spreading butter on bread.

    1. Re:Starcraft theory... by FTWinston · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In starcraft, you often have to make complex decisions: getting cheaper units quickly, or more expensive units later, or some combination of the two.

      By breaking down and analysing the simultaneous equations involved in these decisions, voila, they make math "cool" and students actually want to go to class. Win-win.

    2. Re:Starcraft theory... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If conducted at the same level of depth as TFA, a course on spreading butter on bread could well be a quite tricky one. Doing an analysis of how an irregular mixed water/lipid substance(whose properties change rapidly with temperature) behaves when applied to an irregular heated surface could be pretty hairy.

    3. Re:Starcraft theory... by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't see how it's any different from say studying the theory of chess

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    4. Re:Starcraft theory... by rednuhter · · Score: 3, Informative

      In tetris, you often have to make complex decisions: getting single lines quickly or more lines later on.

      Should you create a 'bad' line (piece does not fit)(to fill in later) or make future shapes less likey to fit.

      --
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    5. Re:Starcraft theory... by SQLGuru · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not to mention having to do that research paper on dropping toast.....does it always land butter side down? What if both sides are buttered? What if neither side is buttered? Can you create some weird perpetual motion machine by buttering half of each side?

    6. Re:Starcraft theory... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The Knight and Rook pieces don't have frikkin' laser beams.

      Pew pew!

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    7. Re:Starcraft theory... by moranar · · Score: 1

      They might even win an award for this:
      '1999 IgNobel Award in Sociology: Steve Penfold, of York University in Toronto, "for d oing his Ph.D. thesis on the sociology of Canadian donut shops."' http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/10.07/Ig-Nobels.html

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    8. Re:Starcraft theory... by KritonK · · Score: 3, Funny

      Can you create some weird perpetual motion machine by buttering half of each side?

      To achieve that, you need to attach the piece of buttered toast (buttered side up) to the back of a cat: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buttered_cat_paradox

    9. Re:Starcraft theory... by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      I think this is also what the school is trying to see, although university level is a bit extreme, I tend to make it more into secondary high schools, to stimulate the students into learning.

      I applaud the approach to better fit new times, but will be very slow to adopt this new strategy to learning.

    10. Re:Starcraft theory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most universities don't offer courses on chess.

      At best it's one or two weeks in an AI class, but looking at the search algorithms, not the game rules.

    11. Re:Starcraft theory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Reminds me of a game I saw in the toys section of Target I think it was. Each player had a laser and a set of pieces with mirrors the object was to reflect your laser to hit the opponent's target. My first thought was that it was like chess with lasers. I'm sure it wasn't that complex but I regret not buying it now since I can't seem to find it now.

    12. Re:Starcraft theory... by jo_ham · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well someone must be teaching it - since they made it fit into an episode of The Wire and equated chess strategy with drug dealing practices in west side Baltimore.

    13. Re:Starcraft theory... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 5, Interesting

      they make math "cool" and students actually want to go to class.

      Keep in mind that it's at a university, not high school. The students are there because they chose to be there, and they're free to leave at any time they want to.

      I'm not saying "don't make the subject matter fun": please do that. But say I were to hire you based on your understanding of game theory; would I rather have one who spent half a year on doing the math, do you think, or one who spent half a year on doing some of the math and another part just playing games?

      Unless I want you as my StarCraft coach, you, as a student, will have better marketable value by doing the math.

      And hey, for my Algorithmic Game Theory course, I presented a paper showing how employing a tit-for-tat strategy in bittorrent leads to a market equilibrium. So it's not like you're forced to do dull stuff.

      [full disclosure about my biases: I think math is "cool" in its own right. Finite fields kick ass, Lagrange interpolation is awesome and solving linear recurrence relations using matrix exponentiation (yay, Fibonacci) is a really neat idea. Almost---but not quite entirely---unlike digital watches]

      Summary: make the math as fun and cool as you want, but don't make it fun by taking out the math part of it.

    14. Re:Starcraft theory... by SpottedKuh · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't see how it's any different from say studying the theory of chess

      It's actually an even more complex and more interesting thing to study than chess, despite its "humble" origins as just a video game played by the masses. Players have to work with incomplete knowledge (they cannot see all of the opponents' pieces, like in chess). Notice also that opponents was plural -- enemies may turn on each other, or gang up on you. Also, in chess you have time to sit and think (aside from not overrunning the game clock), whereas in RTS games, sitting and thinking is rarely valuable: usually you're better off doing something than nothing at all.

      ...and that's just from the point of view of a human player. Now, try getting an AI to play an RTS instead of chess, and I think you'll quickly find the complexity of the game to be quite a challenge.

    15. Re:Starcraft theory... by Alistar · · Score: 2, Informative

      Unfortunately you are anonymous, but in case you read this:

      http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/games/7eaa/

      Is this the game? I just chose an online retailer, there are probably brick and mortar stores.

      This is the company that makes the above one:

      http://www.khet.com/

    16. Re:Starcraft theory... by SQLGuru · · Score: 1

      But I don't want to fight the cat. I was thinking a set up more like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer with the black being buttered and the white being unbuttered. Set it up horizontally and see how it "falls".

    17. Re:Starcraft theory... by redJag · · Score: 2, Informative

      Perhaps you are thinking of this: http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/games/7eaa/

    18. Re:Starcraft theory... by PixetaledPikachu · · Score: 5, Funny

      In pong... uh.. nevermind..

    19. Re:Starcraft theory... by tristanreid · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Well said. Mod parent up!

      Don't forget:

      -Doing the matrix exponentiation by diagonalizing the matrix into eigenvalues is bad-ass!

      -Simplifying trigonometric formulas using Euler's identity is awesome!

      -Transforming a differential equation into a simple algebra problem using Laplace Transform's can BLOW YOUR FREAKING MIND!

      -t.

    20. Re:Starcraft theory... by Goateee · · Score: 1

      And how do you know he aint talking about laser chess? The board game version Khet is quite awesome!

    21. Re:Starcraft theory... by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      IIRC the only reason the AIs stand any chance in starcraft multiplayers is that they cheat.

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    22. Re:Starcraft theory... by Walkingshark · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, all I ever hear about hiring and degrees is that they don't care a whit about your actual education, since all that academic "theory" is supposedly crap anyway, right? All they want is proof that you can finish something. So people take that to heart and make courses like this, and then the people doing the hiring want to complain because we actually listened to them? People can't constantly go on about how worthless degrees are other than "for proving you can finish something" and then also complain when the bar for getting degrees is continually lowered so that all it indicates is whether or not you can finish something.

      --
      The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
    23. Re:Starcraft theory... by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Except this isn't James Woods High School, this is UC Berkeley, which is (supposedly!) in the top 5 in the US for Mathematics programs.

      If you need Starcraft to make math "cool" after having already taken Calculus and Diff Eq as prereqs, then something is seriously wrong with your choice of classes...

    24. Re:Starcraft theory... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's called "Game Theory" and it's used to design compilers and wage wars. The Chinese are very good at it; look up the Chinese Remainder Theorem for an interesting but non-game-theory innovation of Chinese warfare. Also there's the Byzantine Generals Problem, the Prisoner Dilemma, etc, that all fall under this subject.

    25. Re:Starcraft theory... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Learn to brew beer, then think about that bread. You'd be surprised.

    26. Re:Starcraft theory... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      BINGO!

    27. Re:Starcraft theory... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      In Chess you have a few seconds to think about something, depending on how much time is on your chess clock; I may be able to spend 30 second deciding a move, some moves may take 3 seconds and others minutes.

      Starcraft is realtime, and so moves are not discrete. In Starcraft, my decisions have an impact at the point they're made. If I need 3 minutes to decide how to handle a besieging army, it may be too late to build more forces; it may also be too late to actually resist, the game might be over. If I respond within 30 seconds, I may need to sacrifice some forces on the front line while I build more. If I respond within 10 seconds, I may be able to keep 95% of my forces, and roll in back-up with new forces faster than the enemy can slay them. Some actions may also require time themselves, so I may have to consider that delay and what I can parallel, versus resource costs, etc...

      Chess is very discrete and on a rigid rule set. Starcraft is very analogue and on a rigid rule set as well; but the rule set allows for a much more complex decision tree, which changes during the time required to make a decision. Also, in Chess every move is of a fixed duration; in Starcraft, different moves have different time costs. Starcraft moves can also occur in parallel to hide the time cost, meaning one decision can be free time-wise and thus its optimal ordering is "immediately, up front" unless we immediately need the resources it requires.

    28. Re:Starcraft theory... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Time has a high cost, yes.

    29. Re:Starcraft theory... by chrismcb · · Score: 1

      Are you asking "would you rather hire someone who studied just theory, or would you rather hire someone who studied theory as well as the practice of that theory?"

    30. Re:Starcraft theory... by RazorSharp · · Score: 1

      I always fell asleep in math class because I'd stay up all night playing Starcraft. Neat idea in theory.

      For me, Starcraft is more like speed chess and I love chess. I still suck at math though.

      --
      "From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
    31. Re:Starcraft theory... by Neoprofin · · Score: 1

      Or it makes students skip to play Starcraft...

    32. Re:Starcraft theory... by drsquare · · Score: 1

      I tried that and came to a strong conclusion: the cat lands on its feet and the toast is butter-side up. Regardless, I did not eat the toast afterwards.

    33. Re:Starcraft theory... by Sangui · · Score: 1

      Actually, depending on the version, and if you're playing for max score, you want to make single lines for every line except for the last one of a level, where you want to get a double because it gives you the most amount of bonus points, so your score ends up being higher even if you theoretically got only tetrises.

    34. Re:Starcraft theory... by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

      You have a good point.

      I'd have to know the details of the course to give a good answer to that.

    35. Re:Starcraft theory... by FTWinston · · Score: 1

      I did a computational physics degree, and as a result, had to take some computer science classes.

      There was one class (ok, it was boring, but still) where by the end of it, the only two regular attendees were myself and a mathematician. Not a single CS student felt the need to attend.

      In another class, upon being told that some simple university-level mathematics would be used, had all the computer scientists recoiling in horror.

      Now maybe these guys were the exception rather than the rule, but if it was my job to have to try to teach them, I'd be willing to try anything, including renaming maths to "starcraft"

    36. Re:Starcraft theory... by FTWinston · · Score: 1

      Those cases differ significantly from the kind of problems that a starcraft course would presumably cover, though I'll admit I usually incorrectly assume discreet, turn-based game theory to be the entirety of the field

      Don't get me wrong, I think its shameful that Berkeley is doing this...

    37. Re:Starcraft theory... by FTWinston · · Score: 1

      I have to agree... but I've seen a lot of university students in that situation, albeit not studying at quite as high prestige an institution as Berkeley.

    38. Re:Starcraft theory... by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Actually, they really don't stand any chance unless the player(s) intentionally avoid certain strategies which badly exploit the AI. Playing against AIs can still be fun in a "Can I win without doing X, Y, or Z" type of way, but while SC's AI is very advanced for its day, it's not even close to a standard chess program in terms of skill required to defeat it.

      On the other hand, SC2 will supposedly have an AI so good it will *not* need to cheat - either through seeing the whole map or getting extra resource income (the advantages found in previous Blizzard RTS games). If pulled off, this would be very cool indeed - it's a rare AI in any RTS that doesn't cheat at all yet isn't a total pushover.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    39. Re:Starcraft theory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, as far as I know *all* RTS AI's cheat, they have to. I did some level editing for the original Command & Conquer; other than starting with established bases/units the AI has far more money, can build some things for free, can instantly rebuild tagged structures (usually base defences) even if you've destroyed their construction yard and so on. There's a particularly silly example of this on the last GDI map, where you have to park a tank on a certain hex in the mini-base to your south east to stop an obelisk of light instantly regenerating, even though they have no longer have any adjacent buildings and shouldn't be able to build there at all. Attacks are all pre-scripted or achieved by pre-populating the map with units set to independent "hunter" mode, the AI lacks the initiative to launch them itself.

      Of course this was a game that had to run well on a 486, so they didn't have an excess of CPU to work with ... but the situation isn't very different in Red Alert 2 (haven't played 3.) It's fun to beat a vastly superior but tactically naive enemy though, so this isn't such a bad thing.

    40. Re:Starcraft theory... by PHPNerd · · Score: 1

      No no no, the perpetual motion machine is made by strapping a piece of toast (butter side up) to the back of a cat and then dropping it. It will forever spin right above the ground.

    41. Re:Starcraft theory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      cause its time dependents, so you can do al kinds of additional analysis on rates of change type shit. Hence the calculus and diffi-q requirement. chess doesn't have that.

    42. Re:Starcraft theory... by brkello · · Score: 1

      I don't think sticking blocks certain places is all that complex. The only decision in tetris is should you wait for that straight line to come down or is it getting too high so that you need to start removing some lines so you don't risk losing. It is very simple, then they just make it faster to make it more difficult. You can say anything is similar to something if you simplify it enough. But really, you are comparing a bike to a motorcycle. Not saying it is more or less fun, just that there is a heck of a lot more strategy and theory in starcraft than there is in tetris.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    43. Re:Starcraft theory... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It's basically identical to discrete, turn-based theory, except time is an analog resource. Waiting is analogous to passing turns in chess without moving, except that you can somehow magically pass half a turn, or a quarter turn.... (there's a specific field resolution and velocity of travel and rate of attack etc for each unit, so you could come up with a minimal "turn" length, but ...)

    44. Re:Starcraft theory... by Tybalt_Capulet · · Score: 0

      Since when don't they? Are you sure you've played Chess before?

      --
      Has the old saint in his forest not yet heard of it? That God is dead?
  8. I, for one ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... find this article very interesting!

  9. Student-run class, not taught by a professor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's a "DeCal" class run by students. Although a decal class requires a sponsorship from a professor, it is neither taught nor closely supervised by a professor.

    1. Re:Student-run class, not taught by a professor by KibibyteBrain · · Score: 1

      Well, its is basically a case study class. Many college and especially grad school classes are case studies. I don't see a problem in studying game mechanics of a successful game any more than studying the engineering of a successful rocket or studying the economic policies of a successful empire. All the same academic role, or course, assuming a similar degree of rigor.

    2. Re:Student-run class, not taught by a professor by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh. We had those when I was back in college. Our college also had a program whereby Thursdays in the student bar, beer was free if the students were accompanied by a professor. The student teaching the Anarchism class realised that, as part of the program, he qualified as a professor, so he scheduled the course to meet during happy hour.

      Awesome.

    3. Re:Student-run class, not taught by a professor by Forai · · Score: 1

      Yeah, Occasionally they actually run a nethack course too, Very interesting, but it's not run by a prof as you may guess. (And yes, I watched a few lessons) "Nethack rule 1, Your pet is smarter then you"

    4. Re:Student-run class, not taught by a professor by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Yep. My wife is a psychology grad student and aside from the practicums (which are, in and of themselves, real, live case studies), even the classes that are regular classes consist of a bunch of case studies.

      So she's up to her ears in case studies. All I hear about all day are things like "More case studies! Argh!"

    5. Re:Student-run class, not taught by a professor by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      And anarchy ensued?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  10. Is that for real? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I doubt this is for real.

    I cannot found anything on the http://berkeley.edu/ web site.

    The "official" web site is http://michaelo.phswebs.com/BerkeleyStarcraft/index.html. This page look much like a "student" page and not like a "cours page"

    Does anybody got an "official" link on the berkeley web site?

  11. poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by jaromil · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... they should instead use TASpring (see also spring.jobjol.nl ) which, besides being free software, has a huge community behind, is cross platform and developed with talent and passion.

    the Balanced Annihilation mod really lets you enjoy strategy to a decent level of detail, while slashdot readers should really have a look at the geeky Kernel Panic mod ...

    cheers from XXX
    with due rezpect to LAP, eXe and others ;^)

    1. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by Deanalator · · Score: 5, Informative

      Poor choice?

      Starcraft is over 10 years old and is still one of the most popular online games in the world. Starcraft is still the most popular game at the world cyber games (professional online gamer Olympics). The game has set 4 Guinness records, including "Best Selling PC Strategy Game". Korea has three tv channels that broadcast nothing but Starcraft games 24/7.

      All RTS games have balance issues when they start, and over time they are resolved. If you check out the top players in the world, you will notice that the spread for what race they use is pretty even. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft_professional_competition

      Say what you will, but in my opinion, teaching a class like this with any game other than Starcraft would be insanity.

    2. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      Say what you will, but in my opinion, teaching a class like this with any game other than Starcraft would be insanity.

      So, no Dead or Alive?

      Even with a very large screen?

      And live models to study the...

      Ok, ok.

    3. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by WarJolt · · Score: 0

      Starcraft is the basics....you don't learn quantum physics until you learn regular physics...and before that you learn 2 + 2 = 4. Complicated games can't be anaylzed by N00BS as easily.

    4. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by Judinous · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with the parent completely. There has not been a comparable RTS since Starcraft, and there most likely never will be. There are two main aspects of a player's actions that have an effect on the outcome of a competitive game: strategy and execution. A few genres will forgo one entirely for the sake of the other. Chess (or any TBS game), for example, removes all execution for the sake of creating a pure strategy game. Fighters remove all strategy for the sake of creating a pure execution game. RTS games are one of the few genres which embrace both aspects to the fullest extent.

      Or, at least, that is what they claim to do.

      Every RTS game that I have seen or heard of since Starcraft was released has sought to remove execution from the equation, and those which fail at balance inadvertently remove the strategy, as well. While lowering the execution bar makes the game more widely accessible for competitive play, the amount of depth in the game is lowered with it. Squad-based RTS are the most glaring example of this. In Starcraft, you could easily write entire books on each unit in the game and the various ways to micromanage them in nearly every situation in order to utilize them to their maximum effectiveness. To this day, people are still discovering small AI quirks which you can exploit to your advantage. In a squad-based RTS, however, this kind of control is removed from the player's hands. Units can only be given approximate orders, take cover on their own, are impossible (or incredibly difficult) to use individually, etc. Another major change is that the overall pace of combat in Starcraft is incredibly fast compared to most other RTS games since. In Blizzard's own WC3, for example, the unit health has been raised so high and the unit damage lowered so much that it takes an order of magnitude longer for units to be destroyed. Contrast this with Starcraft, for example, where the lowly zergling (when upgraded) is one of the highest DPS units in the game (and the highest by far when comparing by resource cost) and 2-4 of them can flatten almost any ground unit in a matter of seconds. You might argue that Starcraft has a relatively high unit count, which is why units in other RTS seem to die so much slower, and you'd be right. This is also yet another example of removing complexity and depth for the sake of accessibility.

      Now, it's hard to fault game developers for these changes, though. The fact is that these days, the "hardcore" market is significantly smaller than the more casual market to which these games are catering to. Game companies are, in the end, looking to make money. Creating a game which can be played on a deep competitive level is either an afterthought at best, or more often, simply not considered. Starcraft is likely to be the last truly competitive RTS that we will ever see.

      As a side note, if you're interested in the topic, I would recommend heading to http://www.sirlin.net/ and checking out their lengthy running discussion revolving around their hopes for Starcraft 2.

    5. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by Creepy · · Score: 1

      Speaking of Korea, my first thought when I read the subject was to make a joke about Korean exchange students, but once again Slashdot beat me to it: how-about-a-korean-exchange-program

      It IS the unofficial national sport of South Korea (Taekwondo is the official national sport).

    6. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by theheadlessrabbit · · Score: 1

      In Korea, only old people play Starcraft.

      the younger kids all play a FPS called 'sudden attack' while the really young kids are addicted to 'Maple Story'

      out of the 1500 12-16 year old kids I taught in Korea, only about 3 of them played star craft. all of them where in their final year of middle school. none of the younger kids were interested.

      --
      -I only code in BASIC.-
    7. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do not agree with the fighting games do not have strategy, only execution part ! I would recommend YOU heading to http://www.sirlin.net to read his book. He's primarily a fighting games player and I think he would have found the statement offense too.

    8. Re:poor choice for a contemporary RTS game... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the first time in I-don't-know-how-long I want to go back to school.

  12. Understanding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Calculus and Differential Equations are highly recommended for full understanding of the course.

    They may still won't 'understand' Starcraft until they get their asses handed to them by a 12 year old Korean kid.

    1. Re:Understanding? by Andr+T. · · Score: 1

      The worst thing is, they sound like those damn kids that beat you in chess and laugh at your face about it.

      "Haha, I wouldn't move that bishop if I were you"

      or

      "Haha, do you really think those lurkers will be of any use?"

      --

      Any life is made up of a single moment, the moment in which a man finds out, once and for all, who he is.

    2. Re:Understanding? by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Interesting

      If you do start to beat him, he will just drop out. This happens a lot, people just cant deal with loss.
      Me and a friend use to team up. Both playing protos, he would focus on on building carriers, I focused on men, with a strong preference to worker drones, as they are the most powerful character in the game. So we build a small attack force, and with the men I attach a couple of workers. We drop them off all the chaos of war and fighting once the smoke clears we found that my worker has built a pilons with a bunch of canons and he is still working slowly engulfing the enemy base and wiping him out, leaving a couple of fighters to kill long distant weapons. It was usually a slow victory but so worth it.

      An other way is to get those guys who steal other characters, they were supposed to be so you can take away a big gun and use it against you enemy. However you take a worker drone or whatever from each race, then you can build you own super army of all races Protos, Humans, and Zergs. The best part of doing that is that the guy thinks his partner has betrayed him. And attack him and creates a war on two fronts.

      Oh the fun.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Understanding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
      Are you sure you're good at it?

      Protoss, please.

      And the guys who steal other guys are Dark Archons.

    4. Re:Understanding? by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sorry I haven't played in years. Even though I had fun with the games, I didn't have it run my life and really get to know each character personally.
      I never said I was a master, but it was sure fun to come up with different strategies, that some times completely obliterated the guy who though he was all that.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:Understanding? by BobSixtyFour · · Score: 1

      Pfft, that strategy is nothing.

      Try this one:

      You and a friend team up. One member builds carriers, you use your dark archons to capture em way beyond your food limit. Imagine being the other guy suddenly swarmed with OVER NINE THOUSAND carriers (and 8 interceptors each). If you don't kill his base, it'll surely kill his computer.

    6. Re:Understanding? by WarJolt · · Score: 2, Informative

      And unless you're playing one of those lame unlimited resources maps stealing drones or SCVs is useless. It's almost always a waste of time and resources.

    7. Re:Understanding? by digi2k · · Score: 1

      poor strategy.

      against: -protoss: i would storm the carriers with a group of archons, or target the main blimp with some corsars. you wouldn't even have the time to create your cannons.

      -terran: sieged tanks wouldn't hesitate on eliminating all chances of canons. whilst my goliaths were targeting the blimps.

      -zerg: no chance against of hydras hiding under a defiler cloud. maybe even a plague for good measure.

    8. Re:Understanding? by u8i9o0 · · Score: 1

      I haven't played Starcraft online for a nearly a decade, so they may have patched my favorite strategy: using the Zerg Queen to parasite all available animals.

      Since those units are never highlighted as hostile, players usually ignore them - killing them only if their presence interfered with a potential building site.

      Once set, you'd have a bunch of covert spies all over the map. Flying animals were prized due to their mobility and were even less likely to be killed by players.

      --
      This is not my sig
    9. Re:Understanding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How in the world was this modded insightful? Getting things wrong and defending yourself when you're wrong is insightful? You don't have to have something run your life to avoid giving inaccurate information about it.

    10. Re:Understanding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stealing an SCV isn't useless - it allows you to repair your mechanical units, allowing you to do more sustained attacks without fear of that unit who only has 3 health and full shields dying instantly.

    11. Re:Understanding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes unlimited resources lame?

      That just shifts the game from being able to stockpile the most units into being able to produce new units the fastest.

      It's a different way of playing. Both can be fun.

    12. Re:Understanding? by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Island maps (of the non-unlimited-case variety) can make stealing another race worthwhile (and often possible, since Mind Control on a transport gets you whatever is inside s well). That said, serious players tend to avoid island maps, so I suppose the point is moot.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    13. Re:Understanding? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      That is why we launch some ground units too to fight those guys. The point isn't to win the battle but to stall until the cannons are made. For the most part people don't see the strategy as the game has blimps covering the guy building the cannons, so they just send guys to fight the blimps, whos goal is survive long enough to get the cannons up.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  13. no by unity100 · · Score: 4, Informative

    starcraft has been patched and refined so many times since 1998 that it is a near perfect example of balanced strategy which requires long term planning as well as short term planning, instant decisions and twitch.

    there is no 'annihilation' mode in starcraft. you have to carefully craft your strategy.

    1. Re:no by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Yes but it seems like they're talking about war theory, twitch elements wouldn't really fit into that. SC is very focussed on direct control skill which doesn't translate to real wars at all.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:no by unity100 · · Score: 1

      sc can be won through either macromanagement strategy or micromanagement. the longer the game takes, winning through microing becomes increasingly harder. IF, someone is still able to win through micro at late game against an opponent who has superior macro, there is probably nothing you can teach that person in regard to war theory.

  14. THIS DEVALUES EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The people/person who made the decisions to forward this and all other nonsense subjects for degree qualification need to be severaly re-educated themselves.

    Seriously how is this knowledge ever going to benefit anybody in their lifetime. Its establishments that promote degrees like this, that devalue further education and as a result all students by association. They aid to perpetuate the stereotype of lazy freeloading students, adding nothing of value to society.

    This distgusts me.

    1. Re:THIS DEVALUES EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DICK BUTT

    2. Re:THIS DEVALUES EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ^^^
      Prime example of a person who would take this course and think hes going to go far.

    3. Re:THIS DEVALUES EDUCATION by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      There's a field of study called "game theory" that's used to design operating system schedulers, lock contention resolution systems, symmetric multiprocessing systems, all sorts of AI, and compilers. Research typically dives into games like Chess, and Go, etc. This is a very valuable course.

    4. Re:THIS DEVALUES EDUCATION by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, the GP was a troll. Reading the other comments reveals that this is a student run course and won't qualify towards a degree.

      By shouting "DICK BUTT" it's just trolling the troll. It also places a sign to stave of people from attempting to respond behind the rallying cry of "DEVALUES EDUCATION" which is clearly just uninformed "DICK BUTT" anyway.

      By trying to point out and ridicule what you interpreted as a "lesser" form of expression, you revealed yourself to be an elitist ass that is ignorant of the social conventions of the medium you're using!

  15. Just great by GF678 · · Score: 1

    I can just imagine the first class. The teacher will be standing there wondering where all his students are, then all of a sudden... "ZERG RUSH!", and everyone tries to squish through the classroom door all at once.

    1. Re:Just great by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, see, that's exactly the wrong strategy, because the classroom door is a natural choke point.

      Instead, the students should ambush the teacher as he walks to class!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  16. Zerg rush kekeke by SpanishInquisition0 · · Score: 0

    Don't Californian colleges have enough Asian students?

  17. Not playing the game by AlpineR · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you had four buddies colluding in a 3v3 then you weren't really playing the game, you were just being jerks. If you had three in a 3v3 (all on one team) then it is a valid strategy. But it should never work against non-newbies since the other team should outnumber your SCVs by the time you reach their bases. Or at least the third target should have real defenses and a strong economy by the time you reach him and be able to counter you easily.

    1. Re:Not playing the game by ookabooka · · Score: 1

      Yeah, 4 in a 3v3 was boring. However, with regards to a normal 3v3, that wasn't the case. We were able to usually defeat them. This was on a top versus bottom big money map, standard maps would make this tactic near impossible. The reason why we won was because we always outnumbered the opponent, we have 12 or so SCVs to their 4 or 5. by the time we got to the third person, we still had more scvs than they had and didn't have time to build a barracks to completion. Keep in mind that this whole time we would build up SCVS at home and keep them there to mine. Quite often we would destroy 2 players and then fail to kill the third, but we would win in the late game because while we were each a bit behind it was still 3v1. The only time we systematically lost was against zerg as they tend to build drones really quick.

      --
      If you are about to mod me down, keep in mind that this post was most likely sarcastic.
  18. This is why you need more H1B's. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yesterday many of you were complaining about how immigrants were taking American jobs.

    Now you're talking about analyzing an RTS as part of a university course. That looks awesome on the resume.

    IMHO, the educational standards the US *thinks* it has, it does not. I went through an underfunded public school system, then to a public university in a different country. I come to the US, and the company I'm interning at is doing a fund raiser for an "underfunded" school in the area. A school that happens to have two pools, volleyball courts, tennis courts, an auditorium, etc., none of which my high school ever had. If that is underfunded, I think the problem is not funding, but something else.

    The drive for success in American culture has almost disappeared. It is not "needed" anymore. Your undergraduate studies have become so expensive that only those with trust funds from already rich parents can even afford to go to college or university.

    Seriously, take a step back and look at *why* this is happening.

  19. Admission Applications on the Rise by andrewd18 · · Score: 3, Funny

    In unrelated news, admission applications to UC Berkeley from Korea have doubled. Admissions workers are puzzled by the number of students named "Kekekeke".

  20. What no degree? by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Until I can get my PhD in StarCraftery I will take a pass. Besides, I will likely be too busy playing to care.

  21. College application by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i KNEW i should have gone to berkeley.

  22. Decal course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a Decal course. Any old schmuck can "facilitate" a course on any subject, as long as it is approved (by a board of other schmucks). I'm sure there has been a porn decal in the past: "Ponography in the 21st Century" or some such. As cool as it would be, this is not an actual credit course taught by a professor or Graduate Student Instructor. Sorry guys.

    http://www.decal.org/home/index.php

  23. Lab Fees by Shoone · · Score: 1, Funny

    $15 - waived if student currently owns Starcraft and Brood War

  24. Back in the 90s... by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

    I heard that, back in the day, there were Virtua Fighter 2 classes in Japan.

  25. Fake Fake and Fake by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You've been punked, /.

  26. In case you can't find it in the course catalog.. by kaizendojo · · Score: 1

    it's actually listed as "Remaining a virgin throughout college - 101"

  27. Imagine the precedent set here! by Vivika · · Score: 1

    "Advanced Starcraft theory" leaves a weird, tingly sensation in my mouth.

  28. Whoa by SupremoMan · · Score: 1

    You mean a class where you sit playing a game on your laptop while some professor is at the board giving a lecture? I had that class in college. I called it physics101... and intro to computer science... and ... well you get the picture.

  29. I'm the reason she doesn't need Jim Raynor. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm a testicle-shaped ceribrate with a well-endowed throne erected for her pleasure. I don't need eyes to know she loves to croon my purple wand and harry bag of magic. Our nervous-systems intwind to a perfect perpetual orgasm that powers her up. I'm the reason she left Samir Duran (a testosterone gay nigger dyke).

    Jim Raynor is a gay break-up with Arcturus Mengsk, just like Vice Admiral Alexei Stukov broke away from Admiral "mangina" Gerard DuGalle. General Duke is a transvestite old lady turned into a Rosie O'Donnel mangina Patton/Nukem combination. I know these kind of things. Don't try to ussurp my social comprehension with some of your New Age factoids.

  30. Link doesn't work by __aasodn3748 · · Score: 1

    Is the board game Starcraft being used in the course? The link doesn't seem to work. Yehuda http://purplepawn.com/