Slashdot Mirror
Bruce Perens On Combining GPL and Proprietary Software
jammag writes "Combining GPL and proprietary software is ever more common, especially in the world of embedded devices like cell phones. But the question is: how to combine them legally. As sticky as the issue is, there is an answer, as self titled "open source strategic consultant" Bruce Perens explains. The proper procedure entails fully understanding what type of open source software you're using, and knowing why you need to combine these disparate licenses. The problem, he notes, is that many companies don't know or care about doing this legally. 'They're used to just "clicking yes" with no regard to what they're committing themselves and their company to.' Hopefully Perens' guide can be read by more company execs — resulting in fewer lawsuits going forward (but we're not holding our breath)." update 21:31 GMT by SM: Bruce wrote in to make sure we knew he was not a lawyer, even though he is weighing in on a legal issue; updated to reflect.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
> no regard to what they're committing themselves and their company
Most employees aren't legally empowered to commit their company / organisation to anything. They don't have the authority to sign contracts on behalf of the company / organisation.
The easy answer to the problem: don't redistribute whatever it is you make. By not redistributing, you should be free from any GPL (or other license) obligations. Now, in real life, that may not be an applicable answer. But it is the easy one.
This guy's the limit!
"An "Ask Slashdot" with the goatse guy would be more enlightening to read."
LOL, he certainly has had a tremendous and lasting impact on Slashdot. I would love a interview with the guy. Does he use Linux or Windows? BSD or GPL for his open source projects? We've all gotten insight into one side of him. It's long over do to learn about the other.
Hopefully Perens' guide can be read by more company execs -- resulting in fewer lawsuits going forward (but we're not holding our breath)
Until the risk of being sued for a significant amount of money is more statistically likely than being struck by lightning and a meteorite at the same moment, no exec is going to waste their time. In fact unless you start personally suing CEOs I bet they have more important things to spend their time on.
It is not the exec that should be reading this in any case. It's the project manager or section/department head that takes care of this detail. A CEO and/or legal department and/or risk management group (depending on the size of the company) should enforce that this aspect of the project be considered.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
I still can't figure out how bruce perens manages to get himself onto the front page of slashdot. I can't think of a single thing he's ever had to say of any relevance or interest.
Can you #include header files from GPLed code in proprietary code?
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato
They're used to just "clicking yes" with no regard to what they're committing themselves and their company to.
This is a very subjective question for you to answer (so feel free to say "I'd rather not speculate"), but my question is: When these companies disregard the license, is their primary reason for doing so stupidity or malice? Is it usually because someone mistakenly thinks "hey, this is available online so I can do whatever I want with it" or is it more along the lines of "no one will ever catch me, so I'm just going to grab this code."
In any case, thanks for all your hard work for the community!
A while ago my company contacted the FSF with regards to some questions about correctly integrating some GPL and LGPL software with our own software. We got the runaround over a few e-mails with the FSF, and nobody ever got back to us. It would help if they would be more responsive when companies are *trying* to do the right thing. In the end we just gave up and wrote all the code ourselves, which was less full-featured than using the GPL software, but kept us on the right side of things. Very frustrating experience overall.
This is more reasons why people should use Ninnle Linux. It is licensed under the superior NPL or Ninnle Public License. Just another innovation from Ninnle Labs.
Ahhh, what a refreshing change it would be to see the "open sores" comments get marked as 'insightful' and 'informative'.
This guy's the limit!
It's long over do to learn about the other.
Why are you and this guy so obsessed with Donald Trump's hair?
Free Martian Whores!
He would probably just be an ass.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Must be Windows juging by the size of that backdoor
Adama would be an awesome president!
Does anyone know why we always give those "IANAL" disclaimers? Do we just say "IANAL" so that the reader doesn't take our opinion too seriously, or is there some kind of liability associated with not being a lawyer but sounding like you're giving legal advice?
Now that we know how to combine GPL with proprietary software, how do we combine GPL with BSD software, without getting yelled at by Theo?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
(AC because I work on what I'm talking about, and this problem hampers me continuously, at my current job and all previous).
I am dismayed that this is a possible loop-hole to the GPL. There is a very real examples of this today: the T-Mobile G1, and its slightly-unlocked Developer handset counterpart.
The trouble is, these devices are completely unusable without the binary blob loaded into the other processor. A lot of the functionality is still inaccessible, and worse still the manufacturers can get away without even providing a data sheet. Even worse still - these devices can be totally locked down, signed, and remove the ability to replace the GPL parts.
It's self-reinforcing, too. The ARM9/ARM11 split (in this specific case) is an increasingly inefficient thing to do, as ARMs are very good at low latency response (FIQs), and the partition is NOT as simple as multiple processors. In the Qualcomm MSM7200 part used in the vast majority of handsets (including the G1), it's another core and they share RAM and all peripherals. There's an awkward memory partition that has to happen, and that's inefficient use of memory. There's a duplication of ARM pipelines and caches. It's not as efficient as people would have you believe.
In short, it's a bad use of hardware resources just to work-around licensing.
I hold out little hope that manufacturers will provide access to radio layers, unlock devices, and generally provide data sheets so long as the "it's on another processor" work-around is an acceptable solution. Perhaps market forces will change their mind as soon as one big player decides that the hardware cost is no longer worth it. Perhaps not.
To be honest, though, I'm slightly happier that there is the workaround and we can see GPL software in handsets, rather than nothing at all.
Are you actually happy with this solution (or only somewhat happy, like me!), or is it just a recommendation?
That may be more feasible than it seems at first. Web applications usually want licensing for terms of use, but the actual source code is not redistributed.
If even he says that Linux is a pain in the ass to use, my advocacy days are over.
In order to get my employer to move in the direction of Open Source, I provided research to show that closed source isn't free of litigation either.
In fact, our chipset supplier ran into trouble with closed source software which still lead to a cease and desist order requiring a class A Change
I do believe the GPL does need to be re-written in a far less verbose manner as many executives still do not understand it.
I don't understand why you need 2 processors to combine proprietary and GPL code. Anything that can be done on two processors can be done on one processor at half the speed. So obviously, you don't need 2 processors.
So maybe using 2 processors makes it easier to combine proprietary and GPL code. Why and how? Are you arguing that code that runs on processor A can not possibly be a derivative work of code that runs on processor B?
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Only if someone ressurects Lorne Green from the dead.
Some folks have written GPL equivalents without the preamble. They've not become popular. The problem these days is not really the GPL. It is that there have been thousands of meaningful court cases about software creating precedents helpful or harmful, and there is a lot of rather pernicious legislation like DMCA. So, we have to craft a license that will protect us from a tower of existing legal paper higher than I can figure. The fact that you can still read it in one sitting is pretty impressive. If you read the findings in recent court cases, especially the appeal in the JMRI case, it's pretty clear that judges like the GPL. And that's what we really need. If it doesn't protect you in court, why is it there at all?
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
You must have meant cylon.
See Google File System in wikipedia. It says that the filesystem isn't in the kernel, it's in user mode. So, it's not really part of Linux. I'm not sure it's so relevant any longer, anyway. There's been a lot of Linux cluster filesystem development by Oracle and others since then.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
There is never any foolproof protection in any court.
While the judiciary has drastically improved in the United States, there are still far too many cases with basic failures of interpretation
The only success that I have had legally is when I am blunt in documents to the point of being extreme. I have met some people who simply do not understand "As-is" in product documentation.
That would be a zombie president. I thought we just tried that.
While the GPL purists might balk at this, it does make the product usable elsewhere (more usage == more testing == good for everyone) and also provides a revenue stream to help further development (good for everyone).
Being practical is far more important than being purist.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
HI, I'm the Goatse guy, posting AC because I'm too busy to create an account. Anyway, this is my personal website, I hope you enjoy it. I'll be glad to answer any questions you slashdotters may have about me.
Now, did anybody see my traffic cones? I can't remember where I put them!
BME: When did you first realize that your ass could be the source of pleasure?
While watching porno films I saw women getting dick in their ass all the time and they seemed to like it a lot, so I thought I'd give it a try.
BME: What was it like the first time you stuck anything in your ass?
I was about twenty at the time the first time I tried it. The first time -- actually most of the first year -- I took no pleasure from it. But, I knew that the porn stars seemed to enjoy it, so I stuck at it and grew to love it as well.
BME: Why did you start putting larger objects in?
I saw gay films where men who were taking whole arms up their ass were getting pleasure from it. I learned to take pleasure from stretching my ass, and the wider I opened it, the more pleasure I took.
BME: How quickly were you able to move up to bigger items? Do you have a training regime?
It took me about two years to be able to take a wine bottle, and four years to take a 32cm ball. Recently I've been able to take a big ball, much bigger than the bottle. To pass that level I had to first train my ass with bigger bottles, like 1.5L pop bottles. There were a number of painful sessions with a lot of blood and ass-hurt for about four days after each session.
Because I am not comfortable writing in English, I will tell you my personal method in French.
BME: Thanks, I'll do my best to translate it for the readers. (Note: The following answer was translated by BME -- I apologize for errors in the translation.)
When I first started, I was using small bottles of shampoo. After that, I tried small apples, and then bigger ones. At this point I'd put a year of stretching in, and bought myself a large dildo.
My method was to dilate my ass as often as I could -- every day, even if just for a short while. Before starting it's important to use a large dildo; use it to both warm up and clean your ass, so make sure you stick it up all the way. When you find that you can take this large dildo without any work-up or preparation, then you know that you're ready to take it to the next step.
Then, in each session, to get your bottom prepared, put in a big cucumber. Soon you'll arrive at a point where even the biggest cucumbers you can buy at the grocery fit easily in your ass. Now you're ready to get serious. Buy a small Coke bottle, and use that in your ass. When that passes in and out easily, move on to bottles of wine. Once you can take wine bottles easily, you can move on to even bigger things.
If at this point you're having trouble with the 1.5L Coke bottle (just try not to force it out because the bottle is very hard), you can also have slower stretching fun with candles. Try putting them in one by one and seeing how many you can fit in -- at this time I was putting in about fifteen at the same time. The candles are great because they allow your anus to stretch very slowly.
Once the 1.5L Coke bottle can enter your ass, train every day or two (use a large dildo first, then the bottle every session). Most of the time I use Vaseline, but don't do what I do in this case. I think that the best lubricants are the ones you can buy for this in a sex shop.
When the 1.5L bottle is passing easily, go out and buy plastic balls that start at a diameter a little bigger than the bottle. Play with those, and with time, and a little luck, you'll arrive at my level too. (Don't feel bad if you're just beginning -- when I first started, I could barely shove a finger in my ass).
What I'm going to tell you now is very important if you plan on doing extreme sessions and taking large gauge. Do not bandage your ass. Do not tighten your buttocks. Try not to get an erecection -- you want the blood to be in your ass lips, not in your cock. It's not easy, but it's important that you think of nothing and empty your mind. It's absolutely necessary that you concentrate on your breathing. Don't think of the pain; know that it will pass. The real secret though is to breath -- and remember, without the pain,
This might seem like an odd question, but if I were to write an application and license it under GPL2 or 3, I recognize that my licensing of that work under GPL holds anyone who makes derivative works to contribute back and open source as well. However, who becomes responsible for the perpetuation of child source code? And, can any third parties take my code and maintain it for me without needing my consent?
Basically, is it possible to create something and license it under GPL to preserve the spirit of free software, but not be responsible for that software's freedom? I suppose that's what forking is all about... but it wasn't until recently that I considered other people might want to use my scripts too.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
Slashvert! Of course this whole "story" is a Slashvert for Bruce.
Where can I read some of these findings? Are they available on the internet for free?
You must have meant cylon.
No, Adama's a Mormon. Tigh is a Cylon.
Bow-ties are cool.
Software licensing (GPL or any other) is DRM; it is attempting to manage the rights of the software creator(s) by threat of legal action.
Having said that, speaking as a developer, if you put too many landmines in the road, then I simply decline to take the road.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
If I distribute a program with GPL code, I have to provide the source.
If I sit a modded GPL program behind a cgi script, do I have to provide the source?
mu?
Are you saying that this linux can run on a computer without windows underneath it, at all ? As in, without a boot disk, without any drivers, and without any services ?
Provided that your motherboard and peripheral makers aren't bought-and-paid-for by Microsoft, yes. It's possible to use some drivers from the Windows XP world on Linux/x86, such as ndiswrapper drivers, but it's also possible to replace your peripherals with ones that have native Linux drivers.
If it were true (and I doubt it), then companies would be selling computers without a windows.
I've owned two Macs; neither ran Windows. I currently own an ASUS Eee PC; it came with Linux, and it still runs Linux. And Dell is selling PCs with Ubuntu Desktop on them.
it does not sound reasonable that some new alternative could just snap into existence overnight like that. It would take billions of dollars and a massive effort to achieve.
Hundreds of thousands of people have developed and tested free software for the various GNU/Linux distributions, from college students in their spare time to full-time professionals. If, on average, they put in the purchasing-power-parity equivalent of $10,000 of their time, there are your billions right there. Linux alone is worth $1.4 billion, and that's just the kernel. The same article values the whole Fedora distro at over $10 billion.
Apple tried to create their own system for years, but finally gave up recently and moved to Intel and Microsoft.
Intel yes; Microsoft no. It's possible to install Windows alongside Mac OS X on a Mac with an Intel CPU, but Mac OS X out of the box draws far more from NeXTstep and FreeBSD than from Windows.
Spoiler warning!
In my case, I have an interpreter for a small language I wrote, which is currently released it under the GPL. Now part of it's design is that it can be used as an embedded language attached to other programs (in this case, one would link to a library implementing my language). So in this instance I would like for any Free/Open Source app (as defined by the OSI or FSF) to be able to link against my code. But for the time being I want to reserve rights when it comes to non-Free software.
There exist open source projects with thriving communities of contributors which include individuals and companies. Those tend to be BSD or MIT licensed, however, so perhaps they are not relevant to this current discussion. *ducks*
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
My web presence is driven mostly by an account at Dreamhost, a nice net hosting company that runs Debian and charges very little. I also have a cheap ($30/month) dedicated server at corenetworks.net also running Debian, which currently runs the one application that wouldn't work at Dreamhost because I need to run my own server on a low-numbered IP port.
There are 3 workstations in the house, and one server. The upstairs workstation that Valerie and I use, and my office workstation downstairs and the server are running Debian. There is an HP Ethernet connected scanner/printer that connects to Samba on the server for storing scans and prints using IPP from CUPS. There is an old machine running XP that is only for Quicken, and TurboTax once a year, and for the situations once in a while where I have to see how web sites look in IE or programs run on Windows. I could probably host Quicken on Linux with Wine or Codeweavers, which would leave only Turbotax (which doesn't run for long enough each year for Codeweavers to support it).
My main laptop is an Acer Aspire One running Debian, with two 8-hour batteries and its original 3-hour battery. I fly a lot. I have a PowerMac laptop that someone gave me, for testing how things look or work on Macintosh, but it's not seen any work yet. There is an older laptop hanging around, and I just gave 5 or 6 laptops to the Alameda Computer Recycling Center. There is also a Nokia 770 running Linux, and I've an old Motorola A780 cellphone running Linux. I have a number of embedded systems boards that run Linux, sitting in my workshop. I have a little music player that plays Ogg. My 2007 Prius has had the video input hack, and displays the video output of my ham radio on the console screen. I could connect Linux to it, if I had more time to play.
I really like Debian. I try to practice what I preach, things pretty much are run entirely on Free Software here, except for the personal finances. The company finances do run on GnuCash, and I have GnuCash doing e-banking, so perhaps someday we'll ditch Quicken. Turbotax is pretty much the perfect proprietary program - not written for love, not written by programmers at all, deep and current information, high liability. It would be hard to make a good Free substitute for it without a sugar daddy of major proportions, like the government.
But this didn't give you much more insight into me, did it :-) I'll get a real interview sometime.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
What was her name?
Yeah, this reminds me of "the other Bruce", .Bruce Perens (150539) (note the dot prefix).
What's up with that? A poor pseudo identity for spewing garbage (which would be a strange thing to do), or an impostor who can't or hasn't been banned?
"Good news, everyone!"
I still can't figure out how bruce perens manages to get himself onto the front page of slashdot. I can't think of a single thing he's ever had to say of any relevance or interest.
Wasn't he the rational voice in that BitKeeper debacle that led to the creation of git?
awesome! just too good!
Thanks for the description of your computing environment. I have a question about usability of netbooks as everyday working machines: what are the tasks that you use the desktop workstation for, as opposed to your Acer? Are there any tasks in your general, everyday use that are unacceptably slow on a netbook?
WTF is an executive doing reading some licencing agreements?
He should have the legal department or outside lawyer review it, and they would state their opinion and answer any questions about what the agreement would mean. It does not matter if the agreement is 3 lines or 300 pages, in any case - and especially the 3-line agreements must be very carefully reviewed by lawyers, since much more of the agreement's real meaning is 'implied' by relevant legislation instead of the agreement itself.
The GPL is as short as it can be without adding ambiguity (actually, a few clauses are borderline ambiguous - it could really do with being around 20% longer to clarify them). I'd prefer to stick with the OpenBSD license philosophy: if the software comes with a long legal document telling you what you can do with it, it probably isn't free.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Previous to this netbook, I had a Sony Vaio with a Celeron 1GHz from about 2004. The netbook might be a little slower, I'm not sure. It came with 160M disk - bigger than the Sony, and 1G ram, same as the Sony. Using Debian the netbook does everything I want. I doubt this would be the case with XP or Limpus. The keyboard is big enough for my big fingers to touch-type upon, and the display is sufficient. I tend to use big fonts on it.
It didn't play HDTV video well at the full screen resolution in the one test I've done so far - I don't know if this is strictly a hardware limitation or if the Intel 945G graphics driver could be improved. Maybe DVD video, with its lower resolution, would work. Video in the smaller box generally offered by youtube and its ilk is fine.
It is, however, rather slow at building the Linux kernel, which I was only doing to optimize the netbook itself. For building my own, smaller, software, it works fine. So, using it for development is fine, using it to write documents or presentation with OpenOffice.org3 is fine, email and web are fine. I had to build a wifi driver that is out of tree, and I compiled a few drivers into the kernel that were usually modules so that the "expansion" flash card slot worked correctly. I think the other, non-expansion (because the card sticks out) flash card slot might not be working correctly yet. I just plug in a USB card reader in its place. I am running 2.6.28, which has the MTRR fix (see perens.com/blog for the MTRR discussion) and the best power management. I did some tuning with powertune.
Bruce Perens.
That noise you hear is a joke going way above your head. Unless you knew it was a joke and decided you had to explain why it was wrong? I think the latter might be the more depressing option.
Said, "It's just like dice but it's got more sides And it tells me who lives and who dies"
Something doesn't make much sense here...
Our president was the leader of the refugees from Battlestar Galactica? Who knew!
Adama would be an awesome president!
These are modded off-topic, though they attempt to be humorous, turn around a troll post, and not attempting to be inflamatory...
That would be a zombie president. I thought we just tried that.
While this is very potentially a flame bait post, even as it is an attempt at humor...
I'm calling for meta-moderation on this one
Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
Every joke offends someone, sadly.
No, luckily.
Offending: The fun for the whole family! :D
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.