Post-Beta Windows 7 Build Leaked With New IE8

CWmike writes "A post-beta version of Windows 7, Build 7022, leaked to Internet file-sharing sites also includes an updated version of IE8, according to searches at several BitTorrent trackers. With Microsoft halting new Windows 7 beta downloads on Tuesday, and blocking all downloads as of noon (EST) today, users are again turning to illegal sources to get the new operating system."

Comments

Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux just isn't ready for the desktop yet. It may be ready for the web servers that you nerds use to distribute your TRON fanzines and personal Dungeons and Dragons web-sights across the world wide web, but the average computer user isn't going to spend months learning how to use a CLI and then hours compiling packages so that they can get a workable graphic interface to check their mail with, especially not when they already have a Windows machine that does its job perfectly well and is backed by a major corporation, as opposed to Linux which is only supported by a few unemployed nerds living in their mother's basement somewhere. The last thing I want is a level 5 dwarf (haha) providing me my OS.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you have never tried it, I could recommend some distros that are on very mature and dont require you to learn command lines to use...check the following and then say again whatever you want, if, they havent changed your mind al together:

www.kanotix.com
www.debian.org
http://fedoraproject.org
http://www.opensuse.org
http://www.ubuntu.com
http://www.gentoo.org
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org
http://www.knoppix.com

just to name a few, most of them can run from a CD on the fly ( boot from CD) and most if not all of the new stuff configures itself, wanna try?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Hordeking]

Lunix just isn't ready for the desktop yet. It may be ready for the web servers that you nerds use to distribute your TRON fanzines and personal Dungeons and Dragons web-sights across the world wide web, but the average computer user isn't going to spend months learning how to use a CLI and then hours compiling packages so that they can get a workable graphic interface to check their mail with, especially not when they already have a Windows machine that does its job perfectly well and is backed by a major corporation, as opposed to Lunix which is only supported by a few unemployed nerds living in their mother's basement somewhere. The last thing I want is a level 5 dwarf (haha) providing me my OS.

Ironically, this post is almost on-topic for once, given the fact that the article is about the upcoming Windows release. Too bad it's posted in most of the commentaries where it IS off-topic.

By the way, I've never heard of Lunix. Would you care to explain what it is?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[LingNoi]

Please don't feed the trolls.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Darkness404]

I guess you have never tried it, I could recommend some distros that are on very mature and dont require you to learn command lines to use.

http://www.gentoo.org/

So out of all the user friendly distros you pick... Gentoo?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[EvanED]

Gentoo is actually a distro I recommend sometimes to people who are interested in installing Linux on their computer for the first time, and it's not because I'm some MS shrill who is trying to scare people away from Linux. ;-)

But if you have someone who has used Linux on someone else's computer or a school computer or something so that they are not scared of the command line and are have become pretty sure this is something that they'll actually be using rather than just installing because they want to try it and think they might like it, and they are willing to put in a little bit of effort, Gentoo is a really good choice. (That's a lot of 'if's, but Gentoo isn't exactly your typical newbie distro.)

I'm a big Gentoo fan (well, to the extent I'm a fan of any OS, which is not very much), because I think it is a solid distribution, but the main selling point for someone who can and is willing to deal with it is that in my experience, the documentation has just been outstanding. It's been a bit since I have really done any adminning of my own Linux box so this may be out of date, but I would do searches for Linux problems without specifying I was running Gentoo, and it seemed that half the time I would hit something on the Gentoo site anyway.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[imess]

and it seemed that half the time I would hit something on the Gentoo site anyway

May be because google personalized your search even when you're not logged in?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Gentoo is surprisingly intuitive, even for a computer illiterate as me, I simply can't do code, Im dense, but I can use Gentoo with ease...why?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[RuBLed]

You might want to add Linux Mint on that list..

http://www.linuxmint.com/

It is definitely one of the "just works" type of Linux distribution. (based on Ubuntu)

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War. It is based on a program called "xenix", which was written by Microsoft for the US government. These programs are used by hackers to break into other people's computer systems to steal credit card numbers. They may also be used to break into people's stereos to steal their music, using the "mp3" program. Torovoltos is a notorious hacker, responsible for writing many hacker programs, such as "telnet", which is used by hackers to connect to machines on the internet without using a telephone.

Your son may try to install "lunix" on your hard drive. If he is careful, you may not notice its presence, however, lunix is a capricious beast, and if handled incorrectly, your son may damage your computer, and even break it completely by deleting Windows, at which point you will have to have your computer repaired by a professional.

If you see the word "LILO" during your windows startup (just after you turn the machine on), your son has installed lunix. In order to get rid of it, you will have to send your computer back to the manufacturer, and have them fit a new hard drive. Lunix is extremely dangerous software, and cannot be removed without destroying part of your hard disk surface.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes yes, of course you're right. Linux is only good for TRON fanzine and AD&D sites. That's exactly why IBM is moving it's web servers off AIX and onto zLinux servers. This is why less than .5% of IBMs internal servers run on Windows, which have over all the worst uptime of any system.

It's also clear that Linux isn't ready for the desktop when it supports more hardware "off the shelf" than XP does, and meets nearly every need a typical user needs.

The one thing that Linux does suck at, is games. So if that's all you need a computer for, keep playing till the RSI cripples you and you leave the rest of us alone.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[ral8158]

Not a good troll, but a nice first attempt. You insult nerds with tron fanzines and Dungeons and Dragons websites, but you know what a CLI is and you know about compiling packages? Although, it was kind of cute.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[hairyfeet]

Sigh....I am probably going to get flamed for this, but what the hey, my karma is great and I hate half truths. There is NO Linux OS that you don't have to learn CLI. NONE AT ALL. Folks like to say that there is, but there really isn't.

If you want proof, here it is. Pretend to be an Ubuntu user. Ubuntu is a friendly Linux distro that doesn't need CLI, right? Install it to a PC. Now let us say that something doesn't work. You are completely free to pick the something: Network/Audio/Video/multi card reader, whatever. Now go to the forums like a good Windows user would do and ask for help. Your answer will ALWAYS start with "Bring up Bash and....."

And it is at THAT moment you have lost. You have failed, the game is over, the fat lady has sung, please hit the lights on your way out. You will NEVER get your average Windows user to use CLI. Hell even the power users usually avoid it like an STD. Believe me, of this I know. As a Windows repairman with over 15 years in the biz I have tried teaching a little CLI to users. It is not going to happen cap'n. They don't WANT to learn the CLI, they HATE the CLI, and frankly the vast majority doesn't even know that Windows HAS a CLI, because in Windows you can always do what you need to by GUI. But it just ain't so in Linux.

The day that you can have a problem in a Linux distro and go to the forums and NOT get "bring up bash and..." as the standard answer then it might be ready for Windows users. Oh, and make those damned Lexmark printers work, but that is another story. But until Linux reaches the point that you can fix problems without ever needing to know the CLI exists it just won't be ready for most Windows users. Honestly I don't think it ever will be, simply because Linux under the hood is really built for servers and servers are CLI based. Nothing wrong with that, servers are a big market. But those shelling out the big bucks to write all the nitty gritty down and dirty internals that all the distros have in common are doing it for servers. And an emphasis on removing CLI dependence simply isn't something they are the least bit interested in. But the second you tell the vast majority of Windows users to "bring up bash and..." they will be bringing the PC to me to have it wiped and Windows installed. Sorry.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[MarkRose]

So out of all the user friendly distros you pick... Gentoo?

Of corse he picked Gentoo. Gentoo are penguins. And penguins are cute and fuzzy. And anything cute and fuzzy must be friendly and easy to use. Right?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Mozk]

The number of times I've had to use a CLI to fix something in Linux is about the same as the number of times I've had to use the Registry Editor to fix something in Windows.

So I suppose I can switch your argument around a bit: The day that you can have a problem in Windows and can go to a forum and not get "Start > Run... > regedit" as the standard answer is that day that it might be ready for users.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[MarkRose]

course*

Damnit, I should have hit the preview button!

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I cut my teeth on Gentoo in Junior High. My only command line experience before that was DOS and an apple station or something (when I was like 6).

Re:Lunix sucks!

[VPeric]

You should try Arch (http://www.archlinux.org/), it has all the advantages of Gentoo and less hassle if you don't feel like compiling every single package.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[loutr]

Gentoo is not that hard to install, configure and use, thanks to its excellent documentation. The only prerequisite is that you are willing to learn and to spend some time to make everything work.

I used to run Gentoo exclusively, but I got tired of waiting for the packages to compile...

Re:Lunix sucks!

[rdebath]

Nope, Successful Troll

Collateral damage is an essential part of a good incite-full troll.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[WaZiX]

You know, sometimes a CLI is just the best and easiest solution...

Re:Lunix sucks!

[gtall]

And that is precisely the problem with Linux. Once in a blue moon a user not experienced with a CLI must use that godforesaken spew of Unix vomit. They won't remember what they've learned last time because it was too long ago. How come you Unix jocks cannot gui the damn CLI so those of us who have something better to do than recall arcane Unix commands can simply guide ourselves to the missing piece of trivia the unix or linux gods decided was too far beneath them to properly abstract and make evidently available?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[hairyfeet]

The problem with your argument is this: and it is another really big problem with Linux. With Windows they often don't HAVE to use reg edit, even for a nasty problem. Why? Because there is usually an uncle/cousin/nephew who is a "power user" and has no problem doing that for them. Or if they are one of those that don't have someone like that in the family they can bring it to one of the multitude of friendly Windows repairmen like me. And we don't support Linux. Frankly it is just too much of a PITA. If you talk to a Windows repairman they'll tell you that like me they tried Linux and left because of something them just drove them batshit insane.

In my case I went so far as to try to sell low cost Linux boxes, boy what a mistake that was! Why was it a mistake? Five words: Lexmark all in one printer. You ever try to get one of those bastards to work in Linux? Good luck with that! And can you guess what the most popular consumer printer is? That's right, you guessed it! I was able to sell the machines with Win98 and Win2K easier than a nice shiny new Kubuntu because what good is a PC that you can't print from? And you can forget bundling a printer because nobody is going to pay $300 for a 1.4GHz PC with 512MB of RAM simply for the privilege of using Linux. So from a business perspective it is easier to only carry Windows. Even if the machine is Win2K a good 99.5% of the time there is a driver for it. As I just pointed out there is a whole class of consumer product that you will be lucky to get to work at all in Linux.

Is it the fault of Linux? Nope, not at all. But consumers don't care. They want it to work or they are wanting their money back. As I said Linux is great for servers. All the major server hardware is supported out of the box and it is easier to lock down than Windows. But until I can be assured that everything my customers is likely to pick up in Walmart will work in say Kubuntu out of the box I simply can't deal with it. And talking to local shop owners none of them deal with Linux either. So while your Windows user can drop it off at a "power user" or slip a little cash to a repair shop and have their problems magically disappear, the Windows user trying Linux for the first time is alone, with a big blinking Bash cursor that frankly scares them that they are going to do something wrong. It is TOO powerful for them. So they bring it to me to wipe and put Windows on where they feel safe that they know what they are doing and can get real live help when they need it. Sorry, no sale.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[drinkypoo]

With Windows they often don't HAVE to use reg edit, even for a nasty problem. Why? Because there is usually an uncle/cousin/nephew who is a "power user" and has no problem doing that for them.

If you need some remote support, which is often the case, you have to hope someone will make you a .reg file. But then, they could be making you a .sh file.

Anyway, lots of instructions don't have you drop to the commandline. I've seen lots where they have you click to gedit to edit a configuration file. You are simply wrong.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[ericlondaits]

.reg files are really easy... it's just a couple of hierarchical keys with their values. .sh files on the other hand, require much more knowledge of how the distro is laid out, and you have to test them before deploying (.reg files can be extracted from an already functioning machine)... which is a big part of the problem of having someone with no clue operating the CLI. If you ever guided someone around the CLI through the phone you know you can't take anything for granted (working directory, press ENTER, what kind of quotes, what kind of slash, etc.).

Re:Lunix sucks!

[vigour]

Gentoo is actually a distro I recommend sometimes to people who are interested in installing Linux on their computer for the first time, and it's not because I'm some MS shrill who is trying to scare people away from Linux. ;-)

But if you have someone who has used Linux on someone else's computer or a school computer or something so that they are not scared of the command line and are have become pretty sure this is something that they'll actually be using rather than just installing because they want to try it and think they might like it, and they are willing to put in a little bit of effort, Gentoo is a really good choice. (That's a lot of 'if's, but Gentoo isn't exactly your typical newbie distro.)

I'm a big Gentoo fan (well, to the extent I'm a fan of any OS, which is not very much), because I think it is a solid distribution, but the main selling point for someone who can and is willing to deal with it is that in my experience, the documentation has just been outstanding. It's been a bit since I have really done any adminning of my own Linux box so this may be out of date, but I would do searches for Linux problems without specifying I was running Gentoo, and it seemed that half the time I would hit something on the Gentoo site anyway.

I won't diss Gentoo, but I prefer Arch. Don't flame me, I know what I am going to say is wrong, but I think of Arch as a binary Gentoo. It's fast, lean, bleeding edge, and on a rolling release like Gentoo, but without all time waiting for it to compile. I tried Gentoo for a while, but I got tired of the compile time, and I find Arch more user friendly since so much can be controlled with a few config files in etc, and they have a really nice source repo (AUR) with compile/installer scripts.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[flappinbooger]

bravo

Re:Lunix sucks!

[drsmithy]

Anyway, lots of instructions don't have you drop to the commandline. I've seen lots where they have you click to gedit to edit a configuration file. You are simply wrong.

I think, perhaps, you're missing the overall point here...

Re:Lunix sucks!

[ArhcAngel]

DING DING DING!!!!!! I sure wish I had mod points......Oh wait...I do....bummer....

Re:Lunix sucks!

[drsmithy]

The number of times I've had to use a CLI to fix something in Linux is about the same as the number of times I've had to use the Registry Editor to fix something in Windows.

Either you don't use Linux much, or you use Windows a helluva lot.

So I suppose I can switch your argument around a bit: The day that you can have a problem in Windows and can go to a forum and not get "Start > Run... > regedit" as the standard answer is that day that it might be ready for users.

Except resorting to regedit has never, ever been "the standard answer" on Windows forums, not even technically oriented ones.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[jamesmcm]

I just found it to be a less polished Ubuntu (with more bugs).

I'd still recommend Ubuntu over Linux Mint, how hard is it to install Flash anyway?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[awshidahak]

Yeah, I guess maybe Linux needs a nice user friendly interface to fix problems like windows. Seems like every time I have a problem with windows, when I call that 1900 number for tech support they always tell me to open the registry editor. Boy, that registry editor is so much more user friendly. And whenever I need to install something searching the internet for the installer and then running through the wizard where you have to click next a gazillion times and reboot and then close all the new nagboxes is so much easier than just typing "apt-get install [name-of-program]". Yeah, windows sure is better. Nice that it generally runs slow enough that I can keep up with it. Man, love that registry editor. Nothing like a thousand clicks to replace a good ol' trip to gedit and changing part of a line in a file. And I love overpaying for tech support too. Yep, sure am glad I never have to type 1 or 2 lines in bash once in a random occasion (and yes, it is possible to go without for normal use (mint, not ubuntu. more stuff works in mint.)). RegEdit is so much better indeed.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

thats funny everytime i need to fix ppls windows remotely i make em bring up the CLI.
its so much easier to say type "blablabla" +enter
than go to menu xx click on zz add snapin yy and click th 293 button on the left then right click for context menu and use subitem 2093
yeah..
same reason people say "click terminal and copy paste this line"
cause its so much more simple

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you talk to a Windows repairman they'll tell you that like me they tried Linux and left because of something them just drove them batshit insane.

That's just a result from having Bill Gates' (or Steve Ballmer's) dick far down your throat already. Or was it maybe Bill Gates' dick down your throat and Steve Ballmer's dick up your a**?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[init100]

Now go to the forums like a good Windows user would do and ask for help. Your answer will ALWAYS start with "Bring up Bash and....."

That's not because fixing stuff is impossible in the GUI, but because it is the simplest solution to describe in writing. If you want to describe how to do stuff in a way that even a noob can understand, you'll have to create screenshots and the like.

If you won't accept a CLI answer, I'm not going to care enough about your problem to take the time to create screenshots and the like. You either get the CLI solution, or none at all. Take your pick.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[hab136]

But if you have someone who has used Linux on someone else's computer or a school computer or something so that they are not scared of the command line and are have become pretty sure this is something that they'll actually be using rather than just installing because they want to try it and think they might like it, and they are willing to put in a little bit of effort, Gentoo is a really good choice. (That's a lot of 'if's, but Gentoo isn't exactly your typical newbie distro.)

Gentoo has great documentation and is wonderful for learning Linux internals and such. It sucks for users who simply don't care how the computer works, only that it does. Ubuntu is a better choice for them.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Fred_A]

Now go to the forums like a good Windows user would do and ask for help. Your answer will ALWAYS start with "Bring up Bash and....."
And it is at THAT moment you have lost.

An awful lot of MacOS fixes also require you to enter stuff in the terminal yet I hardly ever see Mac users complaining about having to learn how to use a command prompt. It's just there if you want or need it.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[XnavxeMiyyep]

By the way, I've never heard of Lunix. Would you care to explain what it is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunix

Greatest OS ever?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

YES! Thank you!

The day I don't have to open the cmd prompt on Windows or Regedit on Windows is when it is ready for market! Now we're talkin'.

Viva Ubuntu . . . and open source!

Re:Lunix sucks!

[BlackSnake112]

Most of the CLI commands/steps that the blue moon people will run into are well documented or not rare so if they google what they are trying to do they can get answers and how/what to type in.

It would be nice to be able to download a file, run it, and the CLI steps are done and the printer/fax/sound card/video card/what ever is now working. If that was the case, we might have linux == windows in usability. That would be a good thing. Then script kiddies might start loading up scripts that would fix the problem and add in a back door to root the box. So which would you rather have: a little bit harder and a safe OS or really easy and, well, windows?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

Except resorting to regedit has never, ever been "the standard answer" on Windows forums, not even technically oriented ones.

However, it very often is "the standard answer" in Microsoft's own knowledge base articles. Those articles happen to commonly be the canonical source for the trickier problems.

To solve the icky issues in Windows, you need to muck about in the registry more often than you do not. Need I remind you how dangerous it is to muck about in the registry?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

"web-sights"

web sites.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[A. B3ttik]

I have to disagree with you _entirely_.

I've grown up with Windows, and I've used the Registry Editor maybe half a dozen times in my Lifetime... and most of those were just to do cool tricks like change the start menu icon. Most other things are fixed by hitting up the control panel, installing new drivers, messing with the active devices, and usually downloading and installing patches.

I've used Ubunutu for about 2 years, and its CLI almost every day.

Grandparent has a point, and I think it can be summed up like as this: Linux needs a REAL "Control Panel." The one that they have now is too shaky and doesn't cover enough ground.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[222]

Have you heard of OSX? I doubt most Mac users spend too much time in the CLI.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[eqisow]

It's been said before, but the reason (good or bad) that the standard response begins with "bring up a terminal" is not often because it can't be done via GUI. The reason is that saying, "Press alt+F2 and run 'nm-applet'," is far easier than saying, "Click Start, then Control Panel. Now click Administrative Tools, then Services. Now look for 'Wireless Zero Configuration', right click it, and hit start."

Re:Lunix sucks!

[e-Flex]

Why, oh, why *must* GNU/Linux cover more ground? Why must every desktop use it? GNU/Linux is FOSS which means it doesn't require users/slaves that pays money all the time, right? Just a humble thought.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[e-Flex]

Different selection of a certain bell-curve? :P

Re:Lunix sucks!

[hairyfeet]

Except nobody actually uses those KB things. Have you tried to read one? Japanese stereo instructions are more clear and concise than that. They either go to a forum filled with "power users" where there is some guy who has run into this before and "knows a trick" that can fix it or they take it to a shop that makes it "go away". For example a problem I have run into often is Windows not seeing the audio even with the driver installed. It simply says "no hardware". So when I was working on one of those forums me and another guy cooked up a .reg file that they could simply download and run that fixed the reg problem with the audio service. No need to actually know how to do anything-just clicky clicky,reboot, and voila! If they don't go that route they have the choice of "power users" in the family or the friendly repair shop down the street.

Now let us compare this to a 'best case" scenario for someone new to Linux. They find their stuff don't work and are told to "bring up bash..." and then you are going to have to explain to the what Bash is, what it does, how to use it, etc. Of course by then the snarky ones have gotten on and are telling them to "RTFM..LOL..Luser" or like I was talking of my own experience "tell them to buy another printer...LOL...Winblowz". And then they bring it to a guy like me to wipe and put Windows on it. Because the simple fact is even during the bad old days when I was working a chat room for Windows 9x problems from work I can't think of a single time I told anyone to open regedit. Either myself or one of the other mods would be happy to cook up the reg file and send it to them. And as another poster pointed out you simply can't do that with .sh and Linux. But saying that those crap KB pages is what a Windows user will use is like saying all the Linux user gets is a Man page. Nobody uses either one.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Jorophose]

By the way, I've never heard of Lunix. Would you care to explain what it is?

UNIX for the C64.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[tprime]

And this is the exact reason why Linux will never catch on with non technical people..... that kind of attitude.

You either get an OS that is techie used only or have to care enough to spend more time helping others.. Take your pick..

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Just when I think I've come across the dumbest person in the world... I read a post like yours.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Arterion]

To be fair, opening a config file isn't nearly as daunting to a user as using the command line. They are already familiar with finding and opening files.

The other point is very important, too. A registry fix usually has a little .reg out there, and the user just double-clicks it, and that's it. A .sh file is analogous to some .bat hack someone wrote to fix something in Windows. It may work most of the time, but it takes a lot more effort to create. Even with that comparison, there are only a few versions of windows, but countless linux distros. I will even submit that it's much easier to create a VBScript file to fix or change something in Windows than it is to make a shell file or perl script to fix or change something in linux.

And if we're talking about barely-clued users prowling through support forums, something you can just double-click is an amazing resource, versus having to try and follow dodgy instructions on how to use the command line.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[bonch]

If you won't accept a CLI answer, I'm not going to care enough about your problem to take the time to create screenshots and the like. You either get the CLI solution, or none at all. Take your pick.

Because of that attitude, the users will pick Windows.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[bonch]

An awful lot of MacOS fixes also require you to enter stuff in the terminal

Like what? "An awful lot" implies you'll have an awful lot of examples to offer.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want proof, here it is. Pretend to be an Ubuntu user. Ubuntu is a friendly Linux distro that doesn't need CLI, right? Install it to a PC. Now let us say that something doesn't work. You are completely free to pick the something: Network/Audio/Video/multi card reader, whatever. Now go to the forums like a good Windows user would do and ask for help. Your answer will ALWAYS start with "Bring up Bash and....."

And it is at THAT moment you have lost. You have failed, the game is over, the fat lady has sung, please hit the lights on your way out. You will NEVER get your average Windows user to use CLI. Hell even the power users usually avoid it like an STD. Believe me, of this I know. As a Windows repairman with over 15 years in the biz I have tried teaching a little CLI to users. It is not going to happen cap'n. They don't WANT to learn the CLI, they HATE the CLI, and frankly the vast majority doesn't even know that Windows HAS a CLI, because in Windows you can always do what you need to by GUI. But it just ain't so in Linux.

But people are encouraged to open up the registry and made changes?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll second that.

As a windows power-user and a geek since well before the windows days (Ive still got my TRS-80) I am not afraid of a CLI by any stretch. But it seems like every time i monkey with a linux problem & the answer deals with CLI... I may as well hang it up, because if the solution is that complex, its probably not going to work anyway.

Dozens of times ive tried to make the switch over to various distros, & it seems theres always some aspect of my hardware that shit gets fucked up on... I apparently have some pretty odd hardware, many distros wont handle my dual-display properly, some get confused about my onboard soundcard (which is disabled in BIOS but still manages to fuck linux up anyway)

Anyway, ill usually spend a week or so twiddling with this and that, trying to get everything to work at once (once i finally fixed my sound problem only to discover that the solution somehow buggered up my network connection) but in my experience even when i follow CLI instructions TO THE LETTER, it usually still doesnt work.

Im no command-line newbie, i spent a great number of years computing with little more than dos & a few batch files... but linux's CLI isnt nearly as user friendly as DOS is/was. Its horribly confusing, and like i said, in my experience any solution that requires going to CLI is 99% guaranteed to not work.

Additionally editing configs seems to be just as hit-or-miss. most of the time when i edit a config (just like it said to do on the walkthru or whatever) it results in some corruption here or there, stuff stops working, and in some cases ive had to do a complete reinstall to get the OS running again.

I guess im just doing it wrong, but when i see i have to go into a CLI to fix something, im not intimidated or anything, just disappointed that whatever problem im working on just cant be solved.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with your argument is this: and it is another really big problem with Linux. With Windows they often don't HAVE to use reg edit, even for a nasty problem. Why? Because there is usually an uncle/cousin/nephew who is a "power user" and has no problem doing that for them.

This is like saying "using linux isn't a problem because there's a linux expert hanging around that helped them install it to begin with"...

Five words: Lexmark all in one printer. You ever try to get one of those bastards to work in Linux? Good luck with that!

As I just pointed out there is a whole class of consumer product that you will be lucky to get to work at all in Linux.

Funny, I have a HP 5600 all-in-one printer that was specifically designed for a Windows environment, yet it barely works in Windows 2000 (if at all). And yes, that's using HP's official Windows 2000 drivers.

Microsoft's drivers were non-existent.

Is it the fault of Linux? Nope, not at all. But consumers don't care. They want it to work or they are wanting their money back.

Except they can't get their money back. Read the EULA sometime. This is not a new situation either; it's been ongoing for over a decade.

It is TOO powerful for them.

Spot on. You're giving them a whole-hog instead of a toy power drill. Frankly, they shouldn't be using it, someone might poke their eye out.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

But regedit has a graphical interface. Its actually a very straightforward and simple way to edit a hugely complex part of the OS. Can you imagine trying to navigate that mess from a CLI?

Re:Lunix sucks!

[PNutts]

Just. Wow. I spend time in Windows forums. In Microsoft's Vista forum there are 356 pages of entries. If you search for regedit you get less than one page of results. 'Nuff said.

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

"servers are CLI based"

Huh? Who has set that rule??

Re:Lunix sucks!

[Anonymous Coward]

"what good is a PC that you can't print from"

Right. I cannot think of a single use for a PC that doesn't involve printing!

Until GMail Paper launches for real...

Re:Lunix sucks!

[ergean]

Same here. I've learned from trying to install once gentoo more then I've learned installing any other distro. And I plan to do it again. But first I want to setup a small NAS, but I can't decide what to use.

Big deal

[AlHunt]

>users are again turning to illegal sources to get the new operating system."

I suppose it's almost obligatory, but "why"?, for heavens sake? Other than having a shiny new toy, who really cares? It's just the latest entry in a quarter century of same-old, same-old.

Ho hum ...

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's vastly superior to Vista, and a lot of people are still forced to use Windows for their jobs, or simply prefer Windows to Linux. I prefer Linux to Windows, but I don't go around telling people what to use the same way they don't tell me to use Windows.

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a reason to use Windows 7 when it's actually released. But these builds aren't a stable platform for any serious work.

Re:Big deal

[NotPenny'sBoat]

I have to use Windows at work and would love to upgrade to 7 when it comes out, mostly because I'm a sucker for "shiny new toys", but the key for me is running Linux in a VM so that I can at least get my Unix/Linux fix.

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that's in the employer's hand there.
When in our hands, the systems are blasted and a unix variant is put on it.. {qemu|vmware|virtualbox} runs everything we've ever needed that wasn't runnable under {wine|crossover office}.
Saves the frustration.

Re:Big deal

[hwyhobo]

mostly because I'm a sucker for "shiny new toys", but the key for me is running Linux in a VM so that I can at least get my Unix/Linux fix

What is stopping you from doing it now? I am running the latest Slackware in a VM on my XP Pro laptop. Why do you need Windows 7 for that?

Re:Big deal

[NotPenny'sBoat]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I am currently running XUbuntu in a VM on my XP Pro desktop. I just would like Windows 7 because it's pretty and I'm still superficial enough to be amused by that, even though I'll probably hate it after a week.

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously? I've used both (use Vista on a day to day basis, Windows 7 more from a testing point of view) and really haven't found much difference other than they made it uglier. But then, in all honesty I haven't really had ANY of the problems that people bitch about with Vista. It seems like a stable platform for most everything I've tried on it.

I still prefer a linux desktop to Windows any day of the week, but games and such just work better on windows (because they're made for it).

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

you lover the cok

Re:Big deal

[djupedal]

Once the public learned about the 3 app limit, the reason(s) to pirate (for those that must use MS products, at least) floated right back to the top of the priority list.

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

You've not tried the beta, have you? 7000 is actually incredibly stable, much more stable than XP was when it went RTM.
I can't comment on these new builds, though, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were just as stable.

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm horny you want to take my cock in your ass? I'll be gentle while i fuck your sweet sweet ass. mmm

Re:Big deal

[AlHunt]

Not that I mind microsofties modding me down, but how can the first post be "redundant"? Or is the pointing out the pointlessness of a new Windows release so well known that any mention of it's pointlessness is redundant?

Humph ...

Re:Big deal

[Lonewolf666]

You are correct. It is off topic which also exists as a moderation option. Someone was sloppy while moderating.

Re:Big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you'll be surprised. They done a lot to the UI to make it easier to use, and they've added some nice features.

In day to day use, it seems at least as responsive as XP and is demonstrably far faster than vista.

Re:Big deal

[ilitirit]

Windows 7 comes bundled with Interix, in the from of SUA (Subsystem for running Unix Applications). KSH and CSH come standard, but you can install bash using "pkg_update -L bash" (after installing the package installer).

And yes, you can run Unix commands from the Windows console or Unix shell.

Re:Big deal

[AlHunt]

No, you are incorrect. Questioning the reason behind and logic of downloading a pirated operating system is entirely on-topic in a thread regarding the downloading of pirated operating systems. Piss-poor moderators and microsoft cheerleaders modding that question down is rather inexcusable. But then, since the practice of pirating that particular software is indefensible, they have no recourse but to try and bury the question.

This post, of course, is off topic and should be modded down. While someone with mod points today takes care of that for me, I'm going to go meta-moderate. I haven't been doing enough of that lately.

My suspicion about any P2P downloads...

[Eto_Demerzel79]

...has always been that they contained malicious software that will slow down my computer and drain my bank account...this simply proved it!

Re:My suspicion about any P2P downloads...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have long suspected anything from thepiratebay to contain viruses, especially those linus things...

Post Beta?

[WarJolt]

Post-beta is really relative. I consider all windows OSes beta until 2 years after the initial release.

Re:Post Beta?

[Klaus_1250]

...until 2 years after the initial release.

Shouldn't that be two Service packs?

Re:Post Beta?

[SupremoMan]

I agree with parent post. It takes years to get most of the kinks worked out of an OS. And probably same time to get good drivers for all your hardware.

Re:Post Beta?

[ed.mps]

aren't these the same?

Re:Post Beta?

[schizz69]

Even well into their maturity, they still have bugs which MS loves refering to as 'Features' or 'By Design' I think the whole windows lineage is still in its Beta stage.

Re:Post Beta?

[AnEducatedNegro]

Even well into their maturity, they still have bugs which MS loves refering to as 'Features' or 'By Design'

Such as... I haven't heard anything like that since the Win98 days.

aEN

Re:Post Beta?

[GigaplexNZ]

Not really, it can take longer than two years for the second service pack to come along.

Re:Post Beta?

[SuperAndy]

It is effectively 2 years after the initial release. Vista came out in what, 2006?

Re:Post Beta?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

That's cute, but after their initial release, the Windows version is supported by Microsoft, thus taking out of the test-at-your-own-risk beta stage.

Re:Post Beta?

[Artraze]

> That's cute, but after their initial release, the Windows version is supported by Microsoft,
> thus taking [it] out of the test-at-your-own-risk beta stage.

Oh? I wasn't aware that all one needs to do to create feature complete, bug free software is simply release it. Now don't all you programmers feel silly for spending all that time programming when you should have just been releasing! </sarcasm>

The fact that MS has decided to release something means absolutely nothing about the quality of the software. Commercial software releases are almost invariably motivated by market forces with little concern for the programs quality (supposing it meats the vague requirement of "merchantable quality").

What impact does the fact that they are officially supporting it have on bugs or missing features? They're in more of a bug fixing mood right now (when it's beta) then they will be after it's released and they're playing catchup with security. And if something major happens (e.g. it nukes your disk), what recourse do you have? That ELUA you agreed to basically says use-at-your-own-risk. But I suppose you can derive some comfort from that fact that you call the help desk twice for free (IIRC) and have them tell you the same.

So really, what the GP said is true: the release doesn't matter, and knowing MS it won't be far better than beta until SP1 or so.

Re:Post Beta?

[Koiu Lpoi]

Yes, and Vista is no longer nearly as slow and buggy as it was on release. Go install the RTP again and wince in pain. Of course, most complaints were due to Microsoft fixing the driver architecture, so it might not be nearly as bad as you remember.

Re:Post Beta?

[Skatox]

exactly like the second service pack for vista.

Re:Post Beta?

[hot soldering iron]

Yep, that's why I stick with *nix. 30 years of pounding out the bugs and you get a good, solid OS. How old is Vista/Windows 7?

Re:Post Beta?

[timeOday]

after their initial release, the Windows version is supported by Microsoft, thus taking out of the test-at-your-own-risk beta stage.

No, it's always at your own risk. Don't believe me? Read the EULA.

Re:Post Beta?

[blind biker]

It is effectively 2 years after the initial release. Vista came out in what, 2006?

This is very true, and your post deserves to be modded +10, not just +5. The only way to mod it +10 is to have another post containing this same, at +5 as well.

Mods, you know what to do.

Re:Post Beta?

[Anonymous Coward]

so true!
Microsoft Crap (tm) only gets edible after a loooong ripening process. Some would say, like good wine. they would be wrong though, because winemakers are not trying to take over the world and its dog.

Re:Post Beta?

[dhavleak]

That only makes sense if you're using a 30-year old *nix flavor or if your *nix has evolved very little over the last 30 years. No desktop OS today can make that claim.

OS-X and Linux are the only credible desktop unixes (OS-X is arguably a *nix) and both of them come with their own unique and wonderful set of migraine-inducing issues.

Re:Post Beta?

[Anonymous Coward]

hey, it wasn't funny. more of insightful... as they dropped the new minkernel altogether and are building windows 7 on the vista sp2 kernel...

Re:Post Beta?

[shutdown -p now]

Yep, that's why I stick with *nix. 30 years of pounding out the bugs and you get a good, solid OS. How old is Vista/Windows 7?

If you mean the design and APIs (which you seem to imply by speaking of *nix, as e.g. Linux doesn't have any Unix code as such), then it's 24 years for Windows (since Windows 1.0 - I believe there are still some APIs around that date way back), and more if you count DOS. If you mean the actual source genealogy, then it's 16 years (since Windows NT 3.1), and probably more if you consider VMS and OS/2.

There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[Fungii]

Who's leaking the builds?

Either way, Microsoft are getting a lot of good free press from them so far, I don't think they'll really have to worry about piracy cutting into their profits too much.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Most likely intentional. It gets people using it if they think they're doing something to stick it to Microsoft, while MSoft is in control the whole time.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[SpaceLifeForm]

Could be Steve, could be Bill.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[davidsyes]

Leaked my ass, hehehe.

I say that if these events lately are "leaks", then they make diarrhea seem like mild perspiration... butt, then that's my assessment...

Besides, as stated elsewhere here, they are riding the free-press curve. And, bored tabloids and trade rags are chomping at the logs for something to spre... um publish.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Leaks? Not hardly. You see, many persons who have followed my career on the screen and stage mistake me for a Jewess. This belief perhaps was strengthened when I married Ricardo Cortez, my third husband, the only one I ever really loved, and whom I am now trying to divorce.

Although I didn't find it out until almost a year after our marriage, Ric, instead of being a gallant Spanish caballero which I believed him, was the son of a kosher butcher, with a shop on First Avenue, New York City. His real name is Jacob Kranz.

You might ask what this has to do with Windows 7. Simple. Bill Gates's grandfather's name was not Gates, but Gatzkywicz. It was later anglicized to "Gates". In short, Gates is not a real American. He's a yid.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[Almahtar]

Likely someone expendable in case stock holders deem it a bad thing and someone needs to be fired over it. Sure it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask for permission, but it's even easier to fire a scapegoat and pay him to shut up than either.

"Huh. That's funny, this guy has a really unimpressive salary but a huge severance package."

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Build 7022 is a partner build. That is, it's a build that was distributed to Microsoft's development partners and presumably others who have signed NDAs. So it does have legitimate reasons to be seen outside of Redmond, but somebody's gonna be in a heap of trouble if they figure out where the leak came from.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[Xest]

I don't think Microsoft do care about leaked releases of Windows 7 beta.

The reason they stopped official downloads is probably more to do with the fact they'll run an offer at release for beta users to get cheaper final releases or limit information gathering to official beta key owners systems only to better keep the info they get to a managable amount.

Pirated copies are no problem in these cases - no one in their right mind would run an unpatchable beta copy of Windows indefinitely so no eventual sales are necessarily lost but limiting the supply of official keys is still important for the types of reasons listed above of course.

Re:There have been a lot of leaks of Windows 7

[pcfixup4ua]

Would throwing chairs be considered "soft"?

You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ninnle's the up and comer on the Linux desktop. It beats Windoze hands down.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[AnonGCB]

I've heard this before, google came up with nothing. Someone care to explain?

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[FishWithAHammer]

It's a troll, I think.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, you're not cleared for that.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[ramandu]

It's a meme some AC's have been trying to start; so far it has been a "no go". But I for one am happy that it has been failing, slashdot really doesn't need to have another crappy meme.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

It came up as the first link when I googled it. You must be doing something wrong. I've been using Ninnle for a few years now. Those guys in the Ninnle Labs have come up with an awesome OS.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[AnonGCB]

Thanks you, unfortunately I cannot mod you up, but I hope someone does give you at least +1 Informative.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Sexy Commando]

"The Googles, they do nothing!" ...or something like that.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC, google was caught violating some ninnle code and blackholed most references to them.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Who Is The Drizzle]

The Ninnle stuff has been posted for years now. You must be new here.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

That OS sucks big time. I would much rather use Windoze than anything written by the Ninnle Labs.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

no idea, mario.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[ramandu]

Eh, I never said it was new, just that it was a failed meme. Though you're right, it's a couple of years old, the oldest post I found was in 2004. But I have better things to do than debate the time line of slashdot memes, or at least I would like to think so.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

On Soviet Slashdot, memes fail YOU!

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[grub]

slashdot really doesn't need to have another crappy meme

In Soviet Russia another crappy meme has you!

Errrr....

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

Liar. You've never used Ninnle a day in your life.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Phroggy]

It must be a really failed meme then. As you can see from my UID, I'm not new here, and I don't remember ever hearing this one before.

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't HAVE to be a failed meme! Anyone can spread the world about Ninnle! Even in SOVIET RUSSIA!

Re:You haven't tried Ninnle!

[wcb4]

All your memes are belong to us, with Hot grits

Does it include the "Versions"?

[Doug52392]

I'd be pretty surprised if this latest leaked build ends up giving us a sneak peak at what Microsoft's plans to butcher up Windows 7 into 5+ "versions" is. I'd like to try to use my computer with a 2-process limit, just to see how stupid that would be!

But, I suppose that would be BAD press...

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

A 3 app limit, excluding microsoft programs, startup programs, and firewall/antivirus actually wouldn't be that bad for most people

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[zonky]

Could you launch a startup program that can launch/wrap other executables as a way around it?

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was wondering the same thing, but if you're willing to go to that extent just to get around the ridiculous limitations, you honestly might as well just pirate the damn thing.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. You probably live in a western country - NO PROCESS LIMIT FOR YOU.

2. It's two versions for normal users. Basic and Premium! Power users could probably use professional. Ultimate is just for the extravagant.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Zarel]

I'd be pretty surprised if this latest leaked build ends up giving us a sneak peak at what Microsoft's plans to butcher up Windows 7 into 5+ "versions" is. I'd like to try to use my computer with a 2-process limit, just to see how stupid that would be!

So would I, considering every non-final build of Vista and 7 so far have been "Ultimate". There's not really all that much point in artificially limiting versions of your software that aren't meant to be public in the first place.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I'd like to try to use my computer with a 2-process limit, just to see how stupid that would be!

So, that gets you what? Perhaps System and the System Idle Process? Loads of fun to have there...

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[ProfMobius]

Wrong, if you leave in an in-developpement country, you don't have the process limitation. The starter version (OEM version) have the limitation, and is available world wild. So, it is going to be Starter version with limitation for new computers, with the possibility for a paying upgrade to a full version.Starter is a teaser, and available everywhere.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Darkness404]

But the thing is, it is completely hard-coded in. For example, I won't complain if the largest file I can have on my hard drive is 300 GB because that is the limitations on the filesystem, however, if I could only have a 2 GB file unless I paid $50 for the "improved edition" I would complain loudly.

Secondly, this is a major lock in for MS. If by using Firefox, VLC, and a third-party game you can exceede your app limit, but if you use IE, Windows Media Player and some built-in Windows game, you don't. This is especially worrying in the developing countries where this will be sold.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

I don't know about that way, but I do know that figuring out how to make ordinary programs run as services would become popular again.

I also know that VMWare and similar programs would become popular, as would web-based apps. Running an OS in W7 off of VMWare would provide a great level of security, and getting important documents off of a laptop and hosting them on something like google docs and gmail would be almost necessary, and it wouldn't burden most power users that already do this.

I'd like to see something like this actually come about, so the people at my workplace can just run their Word, Excel, Outlook and Frontpage without worry, but would get yelled at for opening up anything more than Firefox. They honestly don't use more than 2 non-msoffice apps 90% of the time, cause if Office 2003 works, then why upgrade or change to OpenOffice?

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Shados]

Starter Edition is to be sold in all countries, unlike Vista's Starter. The basic edition, geared to developing countries, do not have that limitation.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

Actually the limiting version would be for OEMs, and the one for developing countries would be different.

A 2gb file size limit is one thing (I've never even heard of that rumor yet), but an app limit is quite another. If you have dual monitors running where you can look at a firefox window while playing a game and some music running on vlc, then obviously the starter edition isn't for you. You probably want the equivalent of the Home one.

And I don't predict OEMs offering the Starter Edition as the base OS except on netbooks. The default option would probably be the Home equivalent.

Stop worrying so much about it. Get the features you want by picking the version with the same features. It has always been like that.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

I wonder if IE will be counted in the number of running applications? If so, I can imagine other browsers will have a hard time competing with IE.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[EvanED]

Secondly, this is a major lock in for MS. If by using Firefox, VLC, and a third-party game you can exceede your app limit, but if you use IE, Windows Media Player and some built-in Windows game, you don't.

This is a major [citation needed]. Both show up as separate processes, and since Vista, have little coupling with the rest of Windows components, except the help system which uses the HTML renderer from IE. (Unlike XP and before, when Windows Explorer and IE were very tied together.)

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Lennie]

I thought they were targeting netbooks ?

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[EvanED]

You probably live in a western country - NO PROCESS LIMIT FOR YOU.

As I was corrected yesterday, I'll pass on the favor to you: this is wrong. Unlike XP and Vista, the "starter edition" of Win7 is not the "developing nations" version of Windows. Instead, the starter edition is available worldwide, and is the discounted version intended for Netbooks and similar systems, and it is this version that will have the process limitation. In other words, to run Win7 on a Netbook you either have to put up with the process limitation or pay more for the non-starter edition.

(Win7 will have a developing nations version, called "Home Basic", but this is different. Basically, Home Basic and Starter Editions have swapped since Vista.)

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[dave562]

...if Office 2003 works, then why upgrade or change to OpenOffice?

Licensing costs and forced EOL. I'd be happy to stay on Office 2003 until 2013. It does everything that I need it to do. Microsoft will never let that happen though. They will EOL it, and then within 6 months there will be a "critical" patch that also happens to bork a DLL that Office relies on.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

Turn off auto updates, put up a helluva good firewall and AV. I work for a non-profit with 25-30 people and we bought 40 Office 2003 Pro Licences years ago. There's no reason for us to upgrade until MS updates the docx format and not their 07 compatibility software and the rest of the world uses docx.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

I seriously doubt MS has ever done something like you suggest. they EOL products because newer products are better. case in point: xp has had it's lifetime extended because it has not been surpassed by vista.

I've gotten word 97 to run on xp just fine, even though it hasn't been supported for years.

also: if you give 2007 an honest shot, you'll probably like it. the ribbon interface is not just eye candy. it is WAY more intuitive and easy to use than a million nested menus.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[dave562]

That's interesting. I was just having a conversation with my boss yesterday on this subject. I work for a non-profit too. He told me that unless we renew every two years, we are out of compliance with our licenses. That didn't make any sense to me, because my understanding is that once you buy the license, you own the license. However I didn't exactly put it past Microsoft to come up with some shady clauses like that. Do you get special non-profit pricing? We pay next to nothing for our licenses... I think somewhere in the $10-15 range for Office.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[dave562]

I've used 2007. We have software assurance so we get all of the recent products. We had to roll out Outlook 2007 because a couple of people wanted RSS feeds. (Yes I know there are other ways to get RSS feeds in Windows). There seem to be some quirky issues with the software though. I'm not sure if it's because we put it on boxes that previously ran 2003 and there are some registry turds, or if it's the software itself. But there are issues where users will be typing up an email (using Word as the email editor) and it will just lock up. All of the other windows are responsive, but the email composition window is frozen and can't be recovered. There are other issues where if an email is too long, it will lock the window. Issues like that shouldn't be occuring in release... what, 13 of a softare, 14? What version is Office up to now anyway?

As for the ribbons, you're probably right. I remember when XP came out I absolutely hated the Start menu functionality. After about six months I was used to it and found the Win2K menu to be limited. Microsoft has some good UI engineers, but they don't seem too concerned with retaining old conventions. I'm sure that helps them when new people use the latest version of the OS or application for the first time. For me, it's just kind of annoying have to relearn things every three to four years when they roll out fairly radical interface redesigns.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Darkness404]

But the parent I was posting to said that Antiviruses, Firewalls, Windows components and Microsoft Software was exempt from the rule.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Artraze]

While the poster did say that, if it were the case, MS would need some _serious_ cahonnes. They've already been slapped be a couple governments for simply _including_ IE. It would be positively suicidal to so blatantly restrict competition like that. On the other hand, their target markets for this don't really seem to be in the jurisdiction of those that care.

Still, expect the usual MS anti-competitive games. Suddenly MS Office will appear as one app, but you won't be able to have more than a couple OOo documents open at once. And so on.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[gerglion]

Is it by 'application' or process? If it is by process what happens to applications, like Chrome, that spawn off multiple processes? "Oh darn, I have three tabs open... *sigh*"

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, with Windows 7, Home Basic is now the version for developing countries, and Starter is now the version for netbooks. Most users will get either Home Premium or Professional, so we're basically back to where things were with Windows XP. That said, the versioning is still stupid.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[HeronBlademaster]

Does that include multiple instances of the same application? Many applications have moved away from the "multiple document" interface to the "multiple instance" interface, meaning that you run an instance of Word for every Word document you have open. So would I be limited to two Word documents and Firefox, or could I have six Word documents open, counting as one "application"?

I'm honestly getting tired of Microsoft's versioning shenanigans.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[hot soldering iron]

I don't imagine anyone on /. falls into the range of "most people". I know that I normally have about 7 apps running on my linux system, while I have multiple remote desktop and PuTTY sessions running on my XP laptop at the same time. Yes, I keep both machines busy all day long.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[EvanED]

Well, first, he didn't say *quite* that, but yes he did imply it. But he's wrong. There's no indication that such software would be exempt, and as the other poster says, that would be suicide in, e.g., the EU.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

We bought them apparently when 2003 first came out from a reseller for 20$ a piece for 40 licences, but got a discount on the 10 Frontpage and 10 Visio licences we also bought....it was next to nothing.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

There haven't been any specifics yet, but it would probably be by Application. Like if you went into Task Manager and looked at the Application list.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[d3ac0n]

I snagged the 7022 build off Bit torrent today.

It's the "Ultimate" version.

One interesting item of note: The old reg hack to move the IE menu bar back up on top where it belongs no longer works. Oh, the reg key is there, and you can change it, but simply changing it to 0 or 1 no longer works. The default setting is decimal 21, and I haven't been able to figure out the correct decimal number to fix it. So I installed FF3 on it instead.

Otherwise it seems fine I suppose. I'm running it in VMware off of a USB drive and it's still acceptably snappy. This is on an older Athlon 64 3500+ based machine (Asus A8V Deluxe motherboard) with 2 gigs of RAM, so I'm certainly not running anything that would remotely be considered "top of the line".

Of course, I haven't really put it through it's paces yet, and since it's running in a VM I'm limited in testing parameters. but so far it's looking very much like the OS that Vista should have been. Biggest plus so far, UAC is OFF from the start. Or so unobtrusive that it might as well be off. Biggest annoyance: That damn menu bar in IE, and the complete lack of a quick launch section on the taskbar. (although you CAN bring it back with a reg hack, which I did and it worked fine.)

Actually I'm not at all impressed with the much vaunted new taskbar. Yes, there are some improvements, but most of the changes I found more annoying than helpful. The lack of a quick launch (you can stick shortcuts directly onto the taskbar, but the damn icons are so fucking huge they waste space), The stupid "Iconified" taskbar buttons (you can change them to the old style via the "properties" right-click choice) and the fact that EVERYTHING IS SO DAMN FUCKING HUGE! I realize that monitor resolutions are going up up up, but is it really necessary to make the icons and the taskbar so freaking thick and huge that it's as though the "I'm fucking ancient and blind as a bat" setting is turned on? SOME of us still have 20-20 vision and would like to save screen real estate by using smaller icons.

Ironically, while the icons for most everything are huge, the "notification area" (read: System tray) icons are about 2/3 the size they are in XP. IE: SMALLER! So instead of having all similarly sized icons, we now swing between gargantuan and miniscule. Naturally the icons that will have dynamic information to display (those in the "notification area") are the TINY ones. Nice one Microsoft.

But overall I guess it's OK. The theme manager is spiffy and access to Media Center is nice. Another odd and disconcerting item; It is no longer possible to opt out of the WMP "usage statistics" collection. The checkbox is there, but greyed out. so whether you want to or not, you are sending WMP usage data to Microsoft. (Note to self; use VLC for porn!)

In the end I would recommend Win7 as an upgrade for Vista users, but still recommend that XP users either move to an Open Source OS, buy a Mac, or wait for SP1 or 2 for Win7.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

That doesn't mean though that /. should ignore what most people will be ok with. We will get W7 Business or Ultimate probably and be happy, where they will save 200$ and get Starter.

And life goes on :)

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

There aren't any specifics released yet. I don't know what it would do with multiple windows opened up for the same app....

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[dave562]

That sounds about right. It's amazing how cheap Microsoft licenses are for non-profit and education customers.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Home Basic is for netbooks. Starter for poor countries.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Yuuki Dasu]

A 2gb file size limit is one thing (I've never even heard of that rumor yet), but an app limit is quite another. If you have dual monitors running where you can look at a firefox window while playing a game and some music running on vlc, then obviously the starter edition isn't for you.

I also haven't heard of the 2gb file size limit. I believe the GP was using it as an example of deliberately crippling software to make a cheaper version, rather than an actual "feature" of Windows 7 Starter.

On the topic of the app limit, though, 3 apps is nothing. Your example of dual-monitor situations makes sense from the perspective of a tech worker used to such things, but I've known many people with one-monitor setups that use (abuse?) their setups more than that.

Imagine for a second the user's example were more like this:

My little brother, on his laptop, will have music playing on VLC while playing a game. Firefox will be open to GameFAQs in the background to alt+tab to whenever he needs to look something up. Meanwhile, he has Pidgin running, in case his girlfriend gets online.

Something like that could be run on a netbook or bottom-line PC as long as the game itself will run (and there are a lot of games out there to play, if you don't limit yourself to the latest releases). Maybe you'd argue he shouldn't be using Starter Edition either. However, there are certainly other situations out there that would run up against this problem in reasonable use, and that points at the really irritating thing about this limitation: for the sake of profit, Microsoft is trying to release a product that in a big way is less useful than their own products of 15 years earlier. That's ridiculous.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[MadKeithV]

It doesn't matter what the target market is, if the rumours here are true and this version is sold in the EU, then Microsoft is going to have a new lawsuit on their hands that will probably end up dwarfing the fine they got last time.
Hint, Microsoft: you can't avoid being a monopoly by having more options in your own products!

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

The trojan was stop because you outreach the 3 app limit, good for security...

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[houghi]

Yes it would. It is _MY_ PC and _I_ decide what I want to run on it. If I want to run OpenOffice, Firefox, Skype, some game, Apache, MySQL, ... on my PC, that is something I should decide, not somebody else.

I do not care if it is enough for most. 640K will be enough for most. Please stop treating me like a baby. I should not pay for the stupidity of others and with the current PCs, does it really matter if you have 20 programs open?

If that is the case, then they should start looking at that and how to solve it. The only reason they want this is to force people to spend more.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[ArhcAngel]

Yes, it's called JAVA.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[drsmithy]

I remember when XP came out I absolutely hated the Start menu functionality. After about six months I was used to it and found the Win2K menu to be limited. Microsoft has some good UI engineers, but they don't seem too concerned with retaining old conventions.

What ? To use your example, the "old conventions" of the Windows 2000 Start Menu remain with the newer XP Start Menu, the XP one just has additional functionality and features.

I'm sure that helps them when new people use the latest version of the OS or application for the first time. For me, it's just kind of annoying have to relearn things every three to four years when they roll out fairly radical interface redesigns.

The last "radical interface redesign" for Windows was in 1995. The fundamentals of using the Windows GUI have not changed since then, and none of the modifications have been anything more than evolutionary.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[drsmithy]

One interesting item of note: The old reg hack to move the IE menu bar back up on top where it belongs no longer works. Oh, the reg key is there, and you can change it, but simply changing it to 0 or 1 no longer works. The default setting is decimal 21, and I haven't been able to figure out the correct decimal number to fix it. So I installed FF3 on it instead.

I'm genuinely curious what you (or anyone else, for that matter) use the menus for often enough to need them visible all the time. (Particularly given your complaints below about wasting screen space).

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

Actually, the only reason they want this is because Microsoft recognizes the value in catering to netbook buyers with a cheaper OS that will run fast and be slick, and only be available for OEMs. They see that Linux has an opportunity to take over the netbook arena, and they're scared.

If YOU and YOUR PC are a 20-app power user, then you're in the minority. You're already gonna want Aero and all the other advanced features. For the majority of netbook buyers, those slower computers and mobile lifestyles will be OK with having a 3 app limit.

They're not treating you like a baby. You're just acting like one, complaining about something YOU PROBABLY WILL NEVER BUY. If you buy Windows Starter Edition by buying a netbook through an OEM and complain about it, after having READ the warnings saying "THREE APP LIMIT", then you're a fool.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

Trying to find the useful tools that I could before is alot harder, but I remember most of the shortcut keys.

One lady got 2007 at home, and it took her an hour to find out how to do a word count.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

I didn't say it was fact in my first post, and I'm expecting another EU edition honestly.

But as far as Office goes, Laurence Painell, a UK Microsoft marketing exec said that all of the office apps would count as 1 app, so Excel and Word opened at the same time would count as 1 app.

He also said that anything that runs in the notification area will not count unless you bring it up as a window. So downloading a torrent and controlling it via the tray won't count as an app.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

But the thing is, it is completely hard-coded in. For example, I won't complain if the largest file I can have on my hard drive is 300 GB because that is the limitations on the filesystem, however, if I could only have a 2 GB file unless I paid $50 for the "improved edition" I would complain loudly.

Secondly, this is a major lock in for MS. If by using Firefox, VLC, and a third-party game you can exceede your app limit, but if you use IE, Windows Media Player and some built-in Windows game, you don't. This is especially worrying in the developing countries where this will be sold.

Isn't this exactly why Microsoft is in all of this anti-trust mess in Europe?

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Arterion]

Nonsense. They might stop offering support and patches for old versions of Office, but they don't break them. Here it is almost 10 years later, and I still have some machines here running Office 2000. It works fine, though it looks a little dated. It still does pretty much everything the new versions do.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[shutdown -p now]

Could you launch a startup program that can launch/wrap other executables as a way around it?

If it's the same as XP/Vista Starter, then the limitation is not actually on the number of running processes - it's on the number of windows visible on the taskbar.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[shutdown -p now]

Actually the limiting version would be for OEMs, and the one for developing countries would be different.

Source? The interview with Microsoft sales guy that was previously linked to on Slashdot identified "Starter Edition" as the one with limitation, and also as the one targeted specifically at the "developing countries", and not available outside of them.

Furthermore, in that same interview, he also explicitly says that Starter is not meant to be used as a "Windows Lite" for netbooks, and that they'll be recommending OEMs to go for Home Premium or Professional instead. To reiterate, OEMs won't even get access to Starter in the first world, anyway.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[shutdown -p now]

Instead, the starter edition is available worldwide, and is the discounted version intended for Netbooks and similar systems

Source, please?

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the 3 app limit excludes Microsoft products, it seems like that would just add fuel to the anti-trust lawsuits. Why should a user who wants to run more than 3 apps be forced to use Microsoft products or purchase their unencumbered version?

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[Vu1turEMaN]

I was too lazy to try and find an amazing source for you, so I just used "I'm Feeling Lucky"...

http://education.zdnet.com/?p=2143

Also, you have google answer #2, which states some pretty low requirements for a new SKU:

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/01/microsoft-to-google-we-already-offer-that-see-windows-live.ars

Also, here's a nice article to read on someone that actually contacted the UK MS office:

http://labs.vnunet.com/2009/02/windows-7-and-n.html

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[EvanED]

We know emerging markets have unique needs and we will offer Windows 7 Home Basic, only in emerging markets, for customers looking for an entry-point Windows experience on a full-size value PC.

We'll also continue to offer Windows Starter edition, which will only be offered pre-installed by an OEM. Windows Starter edition will now be available worldwide. This edition is available only in the OEM channel on new PCs limited to specific types of hardware.

Source.

Tepples is the one who corrected me and linked that, from here.

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[shutdown -p now]

While interesting in and of itself, nowhere in the quote I can see the word "netbook".

Re:Does it include the "Versions"?

[EvanED]

The "specific types of hardware" mentioned in the latter quote appears to refer to netbooks. (The link is from the /. article on it.)

Even if it doesn't refer specifically to netbooks, the fact remains that the edition with the process limit is no longer the emerging markets edition, so the poster I originally replied to was still misinformed. ("You probably live in a western country - NO PROCESS LIMIT FOR YOU")

WTF.

[Forty Two Tenfold]

I can't understand WHY users would break the copyright to get this heap of crap on their computers... No, really.

Re:WTF.

[lymond01]

Haven't you heard? Konqueror may finally get some competition with this new IE 8.

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

From my impressions of it, in public release beta, they have came a long ways to make an OS that is actually intuitive to use. I've had very minimal bugs arise, and am quite pleased from this. I've used and been pleased with many versions of *nix, but 7 is a pleasant experience so far.

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably the same reason it was done with Chicago/Windows 95, Windows 98, Whistler/Windows XP, Cairo/Windows NT 4 (the name spawned through like nearly a decade lol), and other operating systems. Simply to seee how they operate and know what the next incarnation of software is heading into.
Be it good or bad.

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe they want their PC to be useful, unlike that linux piece of shit.

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you not understand people installing a better OS than XP and Vista to replace their existing installation? Are you just sad because it's not your beloved Linux?

Re:WTF.

[Forty Two Tenfold]

How can you not understand people installing a better OS than XP and Vista to replace their existing installation?

Going from one version of Windows to the next is like getting from fire to a frying pan.

Are you just sad because it's not your beloved Linux?

So - not exactly sad it's not specifically Linux (could be *BSD or any other flavor of *nix). Just ... sad that people don't learn and still bend over backwards to stuff their Cadillacs of hardware with this... manure of software.

Re:WTF.

[EvanED]

So - not exactly sad it's not specifically Linux (could be *BSD or any other flavor of *nix).

As someone who has used both Windows and Linux extensively, going to another flavor of *nix for me is like going from the frying pan into the oven, or something like that.

I have a ton of complaints about just about every OS in significant use, they just vary a lot. Windows tends to annoy me a little less than the others usually do, so I use that on my computers.

Re:WTF.

[mrxak]

I haven't really cared up to this point, but since I'm up late wasting time anyway, what's good in IE 8? Is it finally standards-friendly?

Re:WTF.

[JasterBobaMereel]

Short answer : No

Long answer : it's better than IE7 which is better than IE6 but it is still less standards compliant than some non-smartphone mobile browsers!

Alternative answer : It is fully standards compliant - i.e. it is fully compatible with IE8....

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

Konqueror may finally get some competition with this new IE 8.

Why? Because right now they have the exact same market share? :D

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

From my impressions of it, in public release beta, they have came a long ways to make an OS that is actually intuitive to use. I've had very minimal bugs arise, and am quite pleased from this. I've used and been pleased with many versions of *nix, but 7 is a pleasant experience so far.

So, what's like working at Microsoft?

Re:WTF.

[Anonymous Coward]

My wallet wouldn't be so empty if I were...

up your ass linsux faggots!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

go eat obama dick you faggot bitches. linux is dead. no one wants it on their desktop. not even suse. take that up your faggot asses.

20 fucking years and you still can't muster 2%? that's what i call limp.

Re:up your ass linsux faggots!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a big ol' fat doo-doo head.

Re:up your ass linsux faggots!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

that's what i call limp.

That's simply because the average penis size of a GNU/Linux user is 20", it's limp because if it gets hard: we pass out from lack of blood.

Re:up your ass linsux faggots!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

You lie! It's only 19.5 and you're rounding up.

Re:up your ass linsux faggots!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

haha, Obama is hot isn't he?!

When you snap out of being in denial we'll be there for you honey.

Turning to illegal sources?

[macraig]

I can't speak for others, but I'm not turning to any source to get another version of Windows. When I'm well and truly done with Windows 2000, that is the last version of Windows I will use. The writing was on the wall with Windows XP; I bought my copy of Windows 2000 on the day that Windows XP was released. Some of you may have no choice because of job or career; it will no doubt be useful for me to retain some knowledge for the benefit of family and friends still handcuffed to it, but for myself I have chosen not to reward Microsoft further for what I consider is a job poorly done.

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[Cassius Corodes]

I don't get this - If you haven't used a windows OS since 2000, how can you say it a "job poorly done".

For my 2c, XP is a very well rounded operating system - part of the reason MS is finding it so hard to move people from it.

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[Koiu Lpoi]

...and how it took ME (an abomination) to get people to move to XP, much like it's now taking Vista...

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what to think about this post. It's such a gruesome spectacle.

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[mgblst]

Have you ever used an operating system besides XP (and I am not talking about Vista/7.0)? XP was ok 5 years ago.

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[lolocaust]

With XP, you can turn off the stuff that makes it annoying (theme, welcome screen, system restore, etc) and you've basically got win2k again.

With vista, reverting to classic theme shows that the glossy "refresh" and "go" buttons in explorer and other places are hardcoded in and look way out of place, and the dimensions of the start menu and other screens (mostly control panel) look very odd in classic. The welcome screen can't be changed from the ugly default, or reverted to nt logon. It's next to impossible to configure a 2k-like system from vista. I'm sure the same will be true of win7.

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont worry. They will fix that problem with XP in a couple patches.

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[JasterBobaMereel]

I was quite happy with Windows NT - The first version of Windows that was stable
I upgraded to Windows 2000 because of the new interface and better tools
I upgraded to XP because I was promised better compatibility and a new user experience
      I have one machine *still* running win2K because I hate the interface, and don't need the extra compatibility ....

Vista did not tempt me, W7 will not either ....

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I have one machine *still* running win2K because I hate the interface

Did you know that, in Windows XP, you can switch back to the Windows 2000 interface (visual theme).

Re:Turning to illegal sources?

[JasterBobaMereel]

The "Classic Style" is NOT the same as the Windows 2000 interface .....

MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[owlnation]

So do we really need to have a Windows 7 article every day? It's in beta, it changes -- and it's not exactly eagerly awaited anyway.

So, other than MS promoting this as much as the possibly can -- is there any need to have any articles on it at all, unless there's a major change?

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Aladrin]

By some, maybe. Personally, I'm looking forward to upgrading my Vista Tablet PC to Windows 7. I hear it's faster and has quite a few improvements, like the new task bar. So some people -are- eagerly awaiting it.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[bit01]

By some, maybe. Personally, I'm looking forward to upgrading my Vista Tablet PC to Windows 7. I hear it's faster and has quite a few improvements, like the new task bar. So some people -are- eagerly awaiting it.

If you make any decisions based on anything other than the final released product then you are a fool. Until then the marketing parasites are just wasting your time.

I'd suggest you find something more worthwhile to do with your life. Content free marketing drivel is a great way to waste a life.

---

Adopt an astroturfer. Make their life hell.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[dave562]

I'd suggest you find something more worthwhile to do with your life.

Like being an all around prick to complete strangers on Slashdot?

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend you not wait. Grab a torrent of build 7000. Seriously. It's no more "beta" than running Debian unstable. Back up your existing installation, though, because the anti-piracy stuff will start to get annoying.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

That's quite popular these days.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[bit01]

Like being an all around prick to complete strangers on Slashdot?

A content free post mod'ed up. I wonder how that happened?

Advising somebody to not waste their time on marketing drivel is not being prick. Whatever marketers might think.

More generally, just treating people who act like pricks as pricks. I'm more than happy to treat people who are civil to me civilly. Look at my previous posts for many examples.

Marketers as a general rule, and all astroturfers, are pricks. They reap what they sow. In addition if somebody is being suckered by their drivel then they need a reality check.

---

Adopt an astroturfer. Make their life hell.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[rdnetto]

it's not exactly eagerly awaited anyway.
 

I'd say a lot of slashdotters are interested in seeing what Win7 is like - half the posts revolve around Windows vs Linux, plus there's the whole know your enemy thing...

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

So do we really need to have a Windows 7 article every day? It's in beta, it changes -- and it's not exactly eagerly awaited anyway.

Not exactly eagerly awaited? By you maybe, you selfish son of a bitch. How can people who think like this actually survive? Your interests don't cover the whole /. crowd, can't you see how many positive reviews 7 is getting? "I don't like 7 => 7 sucks" WTF?

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

In addition if somebody is being suckered by their drivel then they need a reality check.

Sounds like someone else also needs a reality check.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

Like being an all around prick to complete strangers on Slashdot?

Bawww.

Re:MS Marketing Droids working at 150% Capacity

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree he is a prick, "all around prick" is a little too broad. He is a rather specifically-directed prick: to you. Bottom line however is that a prick is still a prick.

After all these years,

[christoofar]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way before it's really even declared "ready."

It's not like your development software is really going to work on the thing; and for that matter--we all know once it finally gets pressed to a DVD the first Service Pack is already on its way out the door, so QA-testing is moot.

Re:After all these years,

[Koiu Lpoi]

Call me EXTREMELY OPTIMISTIC if you want, but we can hope that all these leaked betas with the little "send feedback" button would lead to less shittiness at launch.

Re:After all these years,

[Anonymous Coward]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way after it's really even declared "ready."

There, fixed that for you.

Re:After all these years,

[JorDan Clock]

Yeah, it's like all those people using beta versions of Ubuntu. You know in 6 months they're just going to release another one.

Re:After all these years,

[Anonymous Coward]

I download the betas (not the constantly leaked ones but major milestones) so I can test my software.

I do a lot of low level (in terms of integration to a specific version of Windows) programming and its nice to be able to look at the changes and update my software before everything goes live.

Of interest to a developer like myself include things like the changes to the Kernel32.DLL structure and IAT redirects to lots of sub-dlls. New exports in NTDLL which I need to handle for my module finding software, etc.

If you're a low level developer you really want to be able to take a poke around before things go gold. I know you're going to say "things are subject to change" and yes they are, but usually when things like the above are changed it's "permanent" (or rather, as permanent as it's ever gonna be).

Re:After all these years,

[c6gunner]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way before it's really even declared "ready."

Well, I don't know about everyone else, but my reason is simple. I was avoiding Vista like the plague, until just recently I finally decided to install it for compatibility with some games. In order to minimize the performance hit, I used vLite to rip everything out of it that I possibly could, but I'm still seeing some issues that I don't like. Since Windows 7 is essentially a better-working version of Vista, and since I'm still unhappy with Vista, I'm looking to install it ASAP. I've got nothing to lose. Worst case scenario I'll just downgrade to XP again, which I've been considering ever since I installed Vista.

Re:After all these years,

[Shimmer]

It's not like your development software is really going to work on the thing

You are wrong. I have the 64-bit version of Windows 7 running on a laptop and my entire development toolchain works flawlessly. VS.NET 2008 WinForms + SQL Server 2008.

Re:After all these years,

[nwoolls]

As a Windows software developer, I call bullshit. I run and test our software on pre-releases of Windows. So does almost every other Windows software developer I know.

Re:After all these years,

[bit01]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way before it's really even declared "ready."

Most of them are probably astroturfers and sock puppets trying to drum up buzz.

People buy based on perception not reality and M$ wants people to perceive M$Win7 as a must have, even if in reality for the vast majority of people it's pointless.

---

Adopt an astroturfer. Make their life hell.

Re:After all these years,

[MadKeithV]

Especially when it seems like the majority of people really detest Vista.
The original posts here on /. when the first rumors of Windows 7 surfaced were true: all Microsoft had to do was to generate positive bullshit hype for Windows 7 the same way negative bullshit hype for Vista was generated before Vista. Just that as all the common joe-blow users that I run into swooning just as hard over Windows 7 as they were moaning about Vista without ever running it.

Re:After all these years,

[jlp2097]

Is is it really that hard to understand? As a high school student and a nerd I had way too much time. I always tried to get the latest stuff. It was fun, it didn't matter whether it destroyed the computer and it was awesome to have the new beta of Windows 98 when nobody else had it.

Re:After all these years,

[Anonymous Coward]

Bull, i have win7 beta running on a relatively slow machine (sempron 3000+ 1gb ram), and it runs quite well, i also have netbeans and tomcat installed, and while i'm yet to develop a complete website on there, it's all working so far.

Im also using it to try some games, on the PC side ive been linux only for over a year now, and i am missing some PC games. I am not willing to actually install vista, but so far win7 looks passable for a gaming machine.

I am simply testing to see wether win7 will be worth it when it gets released, and in a legal way. After release it would be either p2p an illegal version (which i've gotten somewhat weary off..) or buy it, now i can try the demo :)

Sure its only a beta, but compared to the vista beta, this is working very very well, i havent encountered any problems what so ever, this makes me consider it as a possible OS for a gaming box.

Re:After all these years,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, what if your WormOfCanA32, doesn't work in Windows 7? Your "customers" would switch to Melissa64, and you don't want that, do you?

Re:After all these years,

[ErikZ]

People beta test software all the time.

In my case, I joined the W7 beta because it was time for the yearly "Wipe and rebuild" for XP. I'm hoping Vista SP3...er, I mean Windows 7 doesn't have that requirement anymore.

Re:After all these years,

[TechForensics]

Is MS software ever "ready" so much as "tolerable"?

Re:After all these years,

[drsmithy]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way before it's really even declared "ready."

Some of us are just interested in technology for technology's sake. Ostensibly, we are the people Slashdot caters to.

Re:After all these years,

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Netherlands, there where long lines for the shops on Vista release day. almost a dozen people waiting for the latest and greatest.

Is Microsoft crippled beyond repair?

[Anonymous Coward]

BREAKING: Microsoft critically wounded by Internet assailant

In what appears to be yet another PR nightmare for the software giant, today Internet user macraig made scathing comments on the highly reputable Slashdot ORG site. Calling all Microsoft operating systems after Windows 2000, "a job poorly done" and noting that Windows has family and friends "hand-cuffed" to it, macraig assaulted the company with fierce textual blows. He even implied he would not infringe copyrights to obtain the newest Windows 7 operating system, a rather heinous indictment in this Web 2.0 world of P2P. "It was wanton, it was unnecessary," said one page viewer. Another user by the name of Anonymous Coward said he didn't know what to think after he read macraig's comments, only remarking on how "gruesome" the spectacle was.

Whether Microsoft will fully recover from this battery of attacks, no one will know. They were unavailable for comment. We will continue to keep you posted on this breaking news story.

Next, do you let your children go outside? Stay tuned as our team exposes the shocking link between sexual predators and children going outside!

Re:Is Microsoft crippled beyond repair?

[Anonymous Coward]

! I think I just peed a little...

Re:Is Microsoft crippled beyond repair?

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah. having the 88% hold on the OS market share really shows that windows is a job poorly done.

The Uncomfortable Truth

[slugtastic]

the new operating system

You'd think that, but you'd be wrong.

Re:The Uncomfortable Truth

[moniker127]

I bet you were one of the ones who complained that vista changed too many things.

Make up your mind.

"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package!

[quibbler]

Get a fscking clue here people, This "leak" is a marketing project from the word go.

Step 1: Build a virtually-nonfunctional but highly stable show-off OS with all of the important (and wildly unstable) compatibility turned off.

Step 2: Leak said software as your next great release and bemoan the loss of your great surprise unveiling.

Step 3: Pay lots of reviewers to fill comment sites about how terrific the fantastic OS is before most have ever seen it.

Step 4: Enjoy a *positive* rollout on the heals of your abomination of a release called 'Vista' and that horseshit "not vista" campaign that followed.

Step 5: Profit

Wow, cool, yet another windows 7 beta leaked again

[MrKaos]

ZZZZZZZZZZZ it's so interesting ZZZZZZ it's so l33+ zzzzzzzzzzzzz

here's why

[Joe U]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way before it's really even declared "ready."

Mostly because it's going to be the dominant OS for the next 5+ years and maybe, just maybe, they want to get familiar with it as soon as possible.

Windows still has about 88% of the market. That means, on average, out of 100 people, 1 uses linux, 9 use MacOS, 2 use another OS and 88 use Windows.

Think about that for a moment, 88% vs 1%. The question should be, why do we care about the latest build of anything else?

Re:here's why

[Darkness404]

That means, on average, out of 100 people, 1 uses linux, 9 use MacOS, 2 use another OS and 88 use Windows.

Ok, explain to me the 2% that other desktop OSes have. Out of all the alternative OSes, Plan 9, BSD, etc. all of them combined do not equal 2%. Now, you could be comparing device OSes but that kinda skews the data a bit because the person who uses the iPhone OS is going to use a different OS for computing needs.

Secondly, where did you get these figures from? Websites usually have a certain slant to them, for example, Distro Watch is going to be visited by a higher proportion of Linux users than who usually use Linux, just as a Microsoft Knowledge base article will under represent non-Windows platforms. Similarly, a Mac-focused blog is going to get more OS X users than Windows/Linux users.

Re:here's why

[pohl]

Ah, how that brings me back in time to the mentality that made the latter half of the 90's the golden age of computing: "Everybody run to the starboard side of the boat at the same time...wonderful things will happen, I promise!"

Re:here's why

[Joe U]

Here's the source that computerworld uses:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/os-market-share.aspx?qprid=9

If you want a dozen articles on the subject:

http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=Windows+market+share+2008

Re:here's why

[Anonymous Coward]

> Mostly because it's going to be the dominant OS for the next 5+ years

Roll back a couple of years and someone was saying that about Vista !!

> Windows still has about 88% of the market.

Which is about 60% XP, 20% Vista (mainly because they don't know how to upgrade to XP) and the rest 98/NT/2000.

Why should we care about anything other than XP ?

Re:here's why

[fl1ckmasterflex]

Secondly, where did you get these figures from?

Thats a good question. But do you also ask yourself how statisticians can poll 1000 odd people and get a very accurate reading on 300 million? :) (I'm talking about the pre US elections polling)

Statistics can get fairly complicated and each poll can be model accurately with a low enough margin of error. As a simple example you can give different weights to statistics of browsers from different websites and them compile a grand total. So while given _ANY_ statistic you can find something wrong with it, you cant simply dismiss it as being inaccurate.

You might find these linux interesting:

http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/10/how_can_linux_market_share_be.html

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=598383

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(statistics)

Re:here's why

[BenoitRen]

5+ years? The Windows version cycle is only 2/3 years. Windows XP was an exception thanks to the huge delay that Windows Vista got.

Re:here's why

[Anonymous Coward]

99% of all statistics are pulled from that guy's ass.

Re:here's why

[drinkypoo]

The question should be, why do we care about the latest build of anything else?

No, it really shouldn't - a new release of the same old same old is not news. But when the alternatives to the poisoned kool-aid are made available, that is news.

Re:here's why

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows still has about 88% of the market. That means, on average, out of 100 people, 1 uses linux, 9 use MacOS, 2 use another OS and 88 use Windows.

Oohhh..that's what percentages mean!

Thanks for explaining.

Re:here's why

[TechForensics]

I still cannot fathom why people scramble to get the latest copy of a Windows OS way before it's really even declared "ready."

Mostly because it's going to be the dominant OS for the next 5+ years and maybe, just maybe, they want to get familiar with it as soon as possible.

Windows still has about 88% of the market. That means, on average, out of 100 people, 1 uses linux, 9 use MacOS, 2 use another OS and 88 use Windows.

Think about that for a moment, 88% vs 1%. The question should be, why do we care about the latest build of anything else?

I've been thinking a 1 or 2 percent user base for Linux really isn't that bad. After all, if most of us looked at our ability levels or SAT scores, we'd be the top 1 or 2 percent of the base of all computer users (which if it isn't everyone has got to be close).

I'm aware this sounds vain as hell, but I'm past the age where I care about sounding as vain as hell. Maybe Linux users are the 1% leading the rest.

Re:here's why

[drsmithy]

5+ years? The Windows version cycle is only 2/3 years. Windows XP was an exception thanks to the huge delay that Windows Vista got.

Note that if you count ALL the versions of NT, as you should, the cycle looks much more consistent:

December 1999: Windows 2000
October 2001: Windows XP
April 2003: Windows 2003 (/Windows XP x64)
(Q3 2004: "Longhorn reboot" - restart of Vista development from the Windows 2003 codebase)
December 2006: Windows Vista
December 2009: Windows 7

Re:here's why

[CAIMLAS]

Precisely. This is even more important if you're stuck having to interview for jobs at Microsoft shops as a "support" type (1st - 3rd level support, Windows admin, etc.). What, you've not administered Vista before? But it's been out for years! You haven't familiarized with W2k8 yet (in late '08)? We know you're very proficient with the technologies we already use, but... You're so not hired.

Or: Oh, you've familiarized with W7 already? Cool, that's not even out yet. You must be very tech savvy. You've worked with MS server clustering and the newer server virtualization? Awesome. You're hired.

Being technologically conservative does not pay in a Windows shop. It can, and does, in a Unix/Linux shop, largely because things don't have to and often don't change as fast, and even when things do change it's not such a revisionist change as with MS products. But it's simply not in the culture (or technical sense) to not be on the cutting edge with Microsoft. "Why change it if it works?" doesn't hold much water there, because by and large, it's not true - and the next version always fixes all the problems you had with the last one.

Re:here's why

[evilviper]

Think about that for a moment, 88% vs 1%. The question should be, why do we care about the latest build of anything else?

1) More than 1 of every 10 systems is something non-Windows... A very big group to just throw under the bus.
2) Classifying all different iterations as "Windows" is intentionally misleading. It would only be fair to similarly say Unix has 12% of the desktop market...
3) I can't remember the last time I met someone that had just one computer. That's figure is likely MACHINES used, NOT what "people" use, and a good percentage of population probably use something other than Windows on a regular basis as well.

Re:here's why

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we aren't idiots impressed with a shiny GUI?

Re:here's why

[ais523]

Umm... that second link just gives me an error message, saying "Enable javascript to use LMGTFY." Why did you link to a website that needs JavaScript when you have several perfectly good search engines to turn to?

Re:here's why

[Joe U]

Why did you link to a website that needs JavaScript

To annoy people who don't use javascript. I thought that would be obvious.

Re:here's why

[Joe U]

Thanks for explaining.

I'm always glad to help the mac & linux community move up in the world. Next week, basic grammar & spelling, stay tuned.

Re:here's why

[Joe U]

Maybe Linux users are the 1% leading the rest.

Sure thing, lead on.... http://www.elizium.nu/scripts/lemmings/

And easily hacked

[ArchieBunker]

Want to bet how quickly someone releases patched files to unlock this 3 app limit?

Re:And easily hacked

[Vu1turEMaN]

Why?

I'd download Ultimate before I would download a patched Starter Edition.

Re:And easily hacked

[themacks]

How to hack Win7:

1. Search Registry for "MAX_APPS"
2. Change from 3 to 0

Re:And easily hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

How does that help? Then you can't start any at all!

Re:And easily hacked

[k-macjapan]

The installation DVD's contain all versions of the OS. The version that gets installed is based on your product code.

Re:And easily hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

3. Bingo: you can't run any app.

Re:And easily hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

And worst of all, then you can't run an app to change it.

Re:And easily hacked

[e-Flex]

So?

Illegal sources?

[QuietLagoon]

More likely - Microsoft is "leaking" the new build to create a buzz of anticipation in the user community.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[ConceptJunkie]

So you're saying Vista was "New Coke"?

I heard plenty of theories that New Coke was a gimmick to get people excited about Coke Classic and still pulling people from Pepsi. In other words, a few people actually like Vista and maybe MS are banking on Windows 7 to win back the flock that Vista drove off. I can guarantee I will never switch back to Microsoft, but a lot of people might if Windows 7 sucks a lot less than "Visturd".

32 Bit

[ady1]

The leaked beta is 32bit only.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[dave562]

I avoided Vista, in part because of all the negativity surrounding it here, and in part because of actual experience with it running on what should have been lightning fast hardware (dual core CPUs, 4gigs of RAM but integrated, onboard video). I've used the Windows 7 beta, and now I'm not too concerned about moving off of XP when the time comes. That isn't to say that I'm leaving XP anytime soon (much like I didn't leave Win2000 until long after XP SP2 was out.) However Windows 7 is to Vista what Win98SE was to WinME. In other words, they got it right, after a serious misstep.

Personally

[Drumforyourlife]

I'm sticking with XP. I've had a chance to try Vista, and I really hated it. It reminded me too much of a Mac. Flashy graphics make for slow processors. Also, I have 1GB RAM on my lappy, which means that I could just barely run Vista. No thanks, I'll stick to running XP comfortably. There is plenty of product support and compatibility, and it gets the job done for me. As far as people downloading the new windows over BitTorrent, don't they realize that you have to have a genuine copy to get the updates? Or is there a crack out already?

Re:Personally

[Anonymous Coward]

for your comp XP is definitely the way to go. No doubt Vista takes more resources than xp. For pretty good rigs, W7 seems to be pretty dang good, this coming from a guy that despises vista.

For the record, for whatever reason the leaked version dosen't seem to include a crack and the online activation works... This means, either they did a ridiculous cracking job, or more likely MS is allowing many activations on the same serial aka supporting the beta leak piracy....

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[morgan_greywolf]

Maybe. I think there's a thread of truth in there, but one thing I can say for sure: Microsoft hates software piracy and they will never -- at least officially -- admit that that version was leaked on purpose. And maybe even it wasn't.

Windows? HAH!

[MerlTurkin]

Who cares? It's Windows. Screw it. Never again. 10+ Windows free and LOVING IT!

MSDN

[Anonymous Coward]

I downloaded Windows 7, Build 7000 via MSDN. It comes with IE 8 BETA, version 8.0.7000.

I accidentally downloaded Vista from the MSDN and installed it. I was using it for almost a day. I thought I needed to buy a new computer it was so slow. I have an AMD Dual Core 4200+ with 1 GB of RAM... then I realized this wasn't Windows 7.

I downloaded Windows 7 and quite frankly MS has a lot to be proud of. It's much snappier then Vista. It definitely feels like this will be the next corporate desktop OS. It's not much slower than Ubuntu which I used on the PC for almost 2 years.

Re:MSDN

[Miladinoski]

I accidentally downloaded Vista

I too accidentally booted into a Ubuntu live CD and wiped Windows. I don't know how, but I was using it for a day...

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[baileydau]

However Windows 7 is to Vista what Win98SE was to WinME. In other words, they got it right, after a serious misstep.

Sorry, are you saying that 98SE was the dog and ME got it right??? (ME was the successor to 98SE)

I think most people would say it's the other way around

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[Anonymous Coward]

You avoided Vista partly because of all negativity surrounding it here?

Everything on this site that concerns MS is surrounded by negativity.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[minijedimaster]

Uhhh... 98SE came out BEFORE WinME... seems to me they got it right and then misstepped and fell flat on their face. Bad example. Or are you saying that.. LOL.. you liked WinME?

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[Anonymous Coward]

Step 1: Build a virtually-nonfunctional but highly stable show-off OS with all of the important (and wildly unstable) compatibility turned off.

Right, I stopped reading right here. What builds of Windows 7 have had "the important and unstable compatibility" turned off? I'm using the beta right now and it runs all the same stuff Vista does, which contrary to popular belief, is MOST things. I've yet to find an incompatible program that wasn't Daemon tools (Because it needs to install some weird SPI driver or something and it doesn't like 7).

bloated browsers

[porl]

well i knew internet explorer was bloated, but i didn't realise that it was so overfilled with crap that an entire operating system got leaked with it!

oh wait, maybe i read that wrong...

Reading Comprehension D-

[westlake]

Once the public learned about the 3 app limit

The "three app limit" applies only to the Starter Edition - a Windows OS and a small suite of programs localized for beginners in third world countries.

The Sugar GUI originally designed for OLPC allows only one task to run.

It makes no sense to allow inexperienced users to randomly launch multiple apps on systems that will very quickly run out of the resources needed to run them.

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[makomk]

It was for third-world countries, yes. (In practice, I think everyone pirates the uncrippled version). The thing is, Microsoft isn't offering a discounted version of Windows 7 for netbooks like it did with XP. So, manufacturers either have to pay the full OEM price for Home Premium, or they can install Windows 7 Starter Edition, which has been opened up to all countries, and users have to put up with the 3-app limit. (For some reason, Home Basic is now only available in the developing world.)

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[houghi]

It also makes no sense to deny inexperienced users to become experienced. The way I learned was by doing things wrong over and over again. That is how people learn.

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[hairyfeet]

Nope, so sorry charlie. MSFT in their infinite stupidity is going to push Win7 starter for the netbook market. That's right! Imagine getting your new netbook home, install AV/Firewall/antispyware and find out "no soup for you!" when it comes to actually running YOUR stuff as opposed to what you need to keep Windows from getting borked. Do you think those folks are going to go "Oh well" and shell out the bucks for the Home Premium? Nope, TPB FTW baby! The version you are thinking of for the third world is now the Basic edition. Yes, for no damned reason they switched them around. Fun huh?

Seriously WTF is MSFT thinking? Are they TRYING to commit suicide? Do they honestly think a 3 app limit is going to fly? I have said it before and I'll say it again: Fire that damned retarded monkey Ballmer who wants to be Apple so fucking bad it hurts and bring back Allchin. Because Ballmer and his marketing drones are going to kill the company. Mark my words, Win7 is going to bomb hard. It is going down like Slim Pickens riding the bomb in DR Stranglove. It is just too bad that it isn't Ballmer riding the thing. But having 6 versions of Vista was confusing enough for the consumer, and now adding a 3 app limit to bitchslap them if they guess wrong is just insanity. Ever since the damned monkey took over they have bounced from one idea to another like the company has ADHD while the core market, the business and enterprise markets that pay them the big money, has been given the finger. Mark my words, that is going to come back to bite them in the ass BIG time.

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[drinkypoo]

Ever since the damned monkey took over they have bounced from one idea to another like the company has ADHD while the core market, the business and enterprise markets that pay them the big money, has been given the finger. Mark my words, that is going to come back to bite them in the ass BIG time.

All hail Ballmer! Ballmer for Microsoft CEO FO LIFE!

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[Anonymous Coward]

That's bullshit. Sugar had no such limit.

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[bigdanmoody]

I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but this is one falsehood that I am really tired of hearing. Sorry to burst your bubble, but MS is *not* going to "push Win7 starter for the netbook market." Unlike you I actually have a source for my claim, http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windows7/archive/2009/02/04/a-closer-look-at-the-windows-7-skus.aspx .

The salient paragraph is toward the bottom, wherein he states, "Many of you have been asking about how to think about SKUs and very low-end notebook PCs or "Netbooks." All SKUs of Windows 7 will work on many of these devices, with Windows 7 Home Premium as the recommend SKU on small notebook PCs with sufficient hardware."

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[cparker15]

Do you think those folks are going to go "Oh well" and shell out the bucks for the Home Premium? Nope, TPB FTW baby!

Didn't you get the memo?

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[hairyfeet]

Uuuhhh......Have you missed the key word here? I guess you have. The key word here is recommended. Now is you are making a product that runs on a margin as slim as Netbooks, and you are offered two choices and one of the is half the $$$ of the other which would YOU pick? Mark my words Win7 starter WILL be put on netbooks. Why do you think they are selling it to the first world now? Who are they going to sell it to OTHER than Netbooks and Nettops? If you think about it, it is the only answer that makes sense. Dell isn't going to sell their consumer desktops running Starter. And folks don't go out and buy their own OSes. So if you sit down and think about it there is only ONE reason why MSFT would chose to sell Starter to the first world: and that is the Netbook market, which they don't want to go to Linux but also don't want cutting into their more expensive SKUs.

Believe me, I wish it weren't so. I have been a Windows repairman for nearly 15 years and to watch them go from Win2K/XP to the bumbling mess that they have become now frankly sucks. But if you think I am wrong and you are right, then please explain to me: Who exactly are they selling Starter to in the first world if NOT Netbooks?

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[westlake]

It also makes no sense to deny inexperienced users to become experienced.

Experienced in what?

Random lock-ups and crashes on systems that don't have the resources to run multiple apps of any size or complexity?

The user is focused on mastery of applications - he wants to learn how to play a movie or write a letter. He is not a system mechanic.

Re:Reading Comprehension D-

[westlake]

That's bullshit. Sugar had no such limit.

You can argue the distinction between a "task" and an "activity."

But I don't think that takes you very far.

Unlike more traditional desktop environments, [Sugar] does not use a "desktop" metaphor and only focuses on one task at a time. The OLPC XO-1 has a 1 GB NAND flash drive and 256 MB of memory. Since there is no swap space and storage space on the laptop, only a limited number of activities can run concurrently. The project's stated goal is to "avoid bloated interfaces", and "limit the controls to those immediately relevant to the task at hand" Sugar (GUI}

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[dave562]

I guess the past has gotten hazy. I thought that ME came out after 98SE.

Thats right keep spreading FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

like the FOSS cock up your ass? ME hardly sold any copies. Since Linux fags are used to being in the 2% of morons who use some weird OS which is useless on the desktop it seems like ME was a huge success, but in reality nobody even bought it. Oh yeah I've seen some smelly hippie "demonstrate" linux (aka prove that its useless) by showing people in the office some spinning cubes or some other crap by typing shit in the command line. Most people laugh and go home and play Assasins Creed or fuck their girlfriend while the hippie goes home and comments on slashdot how he "converted" people to linux and how "amazed" they were. hahaha.. i mean what a fucking joke. You fags cant even keep the OS running through the newyear -> http://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/612/

But whats funny is bugs like this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/257666 Even my 2yr old niece can crash linux. Put in a SD card.. BOOM instant crash.

In closing - ME is unlike Vista, which is a success. In terms of marketshare, anyway. Win 7 will be too. Unless the market gets scared of some commenters here. What do you think? LOL. To any non-tech person reading this, most /. comments; ranting about micro$oft are like white noise. Very peaceful and can be ignored....

Re:Thats right keep spreading FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

This copypasta is stale.

Re:Thats right keep spreading FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey.. Hey dude. Dont kill my livelihood. I dont get paid if I just copy paste. Please say its original :(

Btw the bugs are real. They would have been front page news if it was Windows. I mean just imagine "Windows crashes on newyears" or "Inserting SD card instantly crashes Windows"..

I'm going to collect my cheque next weekend in Redmond, WA. Want me to say anything to Steve?

Re:Thats right keep spreading FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. Tell him to get more people on the performance of Win7. It may be good enough for most compys, but it's dog slow on my netbook, which is a target.

Re:Thats right keep spreading FUD

[macraig]

How is it that this GENUINE troll manages to retain a mere zero, while my original comment gets aggressively modded down to -1?

So much for any shred of objectivity at Slashdot. And you idiots dare to think of yourselves as superior when you can't even rise above your diseased amygdalas and mod objectively?

Re:Thats right keep spreading FUD

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it was late. Most mods stop reading a story 3-4 hours after it gets posted, and thus people stop modding down.

new coke

[mgblst]

It's new coke all over again. When will we learn!

Re:Reading Comprehension E

[Anonymous Coward]

is actually not for developing markets.

And the Sugar GUI runs on a computer that is powered by a Geode, with minimal RAM, that's low even compared to the netbooks.

I'll bite

[Anonymous Coward]

Got, installed it on a secondary partition on a custom rig that Vista seemed to hate. So far, FANTASTIC! I haven't been on vista in about 6 months, so maybe vista got better, but W7 so far seems awesome. The taskbar is pretty sweet with the whole pinning, the my computer shell seems pretty great, and the control panel so far seems really nice. It's too early to say, but so far I am way more impressed than I was trying Vista for awhile. Too early to say, but in comparison to my last experiences, performance seems great.

~ just one sheep's feedback

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

definitely Steve

[commodoresloat]

Remember the flying toasters screensaver? This version has flying chairs.

Microsoft should release Windows for free.

[master_p]

They have so much money coming from their other products...

Re:Microsoft should release Windows for free.

[ErikZ]

Actually, after giving it some thought, I think you're right.

Price W7 enough to cover the costs of developing it. And that's it. It's just a platform for MS's other expensive software.

You sir, are a total

[Anonymous Coward]

retard. Linux is written from scratch which means that there is very little connection to any of the bugs in Unix and its derivatives or variants. Bugs are specific to specific implementations. If Linux contains any code from Unix or any other commercial codebase it basically means "Goodbye GPL" and every linux vendor would get sued to oblivion.

Its so painfully obvious you've never worked on, let alone shipped anything written in C. What the fuck has happend to slashdot? (No, that was rhetorical) Its filled with windows fanboys and retarded linux cheerleaders... Damn I need to find another technical forum.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[drinkypoo]

Microsoft hates software piracy and they will never -- at least officially -- admit that that version was leaked on purpose.

That begs the question, does Microsoft hate software piracy? Or do they just have to go to herculean efforts to convince us that they do?

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[Jaruzel]

It's Simple. Lets look at it in Star Trek Film terms:

Windows 2/286 & The Motion Picture = Crap
Windows 3.x & The Wrath of Khaannnn = Good
Windows 95 & Search for Spock = Crap
Windows 98(SE) & The Voyage Home = Good
Windows ME & Final Frontier = Crap
Windows 2000/XP(1) & Undiscovered Country = Good
Windows Vista & Generations = Crap
Windows 7 & First Contact = Good

Which means...

Windows 8 & Insurrection = Crap
Windows 9 & Nemesis = Good

See? It's easy to work it out when you look at it :)

(1) I consider 2000/XP to be the same thing as they share the same underlying OS (and it also made my Trek metaphor work...)

-Jar

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[morgan_greywolf]

Well, the whole story of Microsoft and piracy goes all the way back to its early, early days of BASIC on the MITS Altair. Bill Gates wrote his Open Letter to Hobbyists in 1976. The whole idea that software piracy is theft and indeed the entire concept of software piracy goes back to this letter.

Understand that before Bill Gates came along demanding money for Altair BASIC, in general, software was commonly and freely passed around. This is exactly what Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchey did with Unix and C starting around the early part of that same decade. Applications software was something you paid programmers to create for you in-house. Systems software came with the hardware. No one thought anything of passing software around. Bill Gates essentially single-handedly created the idea of retail software out of whole cloth.

So the anti-piracy stance is something that is and always has been part of the Microsoft ethos practically from day one. That's why I tend to doubt those who take Bill Gates quotes out of context and then turn around and say that Microsoft condones piracy. I don't think they do.

Windows beta paying journalists?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't expect an unbiased review of the new Windows OS. This is a first hand account, no friend of a friend saying.

I work for a major newspaper in Canada, owned by a major media company. The guy who does the consumer electronics, computer reviews and stories took a buyout last year and is no longer beholding to the publishers rules. He freelances now but still contributes weekly to the newspaper chain.

A little while ago he came into the newsroom and started chatting. He was bragging about how he got a high end laptop loaded with the new windows OS to keep. That is right. Review the OS and keep the laptop.

Do you ever expect unbiased reviews when you end up getting four or five thousand dollars put into your pocket? Because he is not a full time employee of our company, he must figure that the rules of accepting anything more than a meal don't apply to him.

FWIW, this is unusual in the mainstream press in Canada. It is frowned upon but this guy has long had a reputation of being less than upstanding.

Source

[Xocet_00]

I'm just wondering where you read about Starter Edition being meant for netbooks. It doesn't seem like an unreasonable claim, but I was under the impression that Starter Edition was for emerging markets and wouldn't be sold in developed countries. Did Microsoft and/or a netbook manufacturer announce that they intend to supply the machines with Starter Edition pre-installed?

Re:Source

[NiteShaed]

I had thought that Starter was only going to be for undeveloped markets, but after that post I did a quick google and found this.

I'm going to research this a little more when I have time, but either the "Starter Edition" is actually going to be used in developed countries as an upsell opportunity, or there's a hell of a lot of confusion about this. Right now though, I'm thinking maybe the idea of using it for upsells seems plausible though....

Lexmark printers : You're a criminal advising them

[DrYak]

Five words: Lexmark all in one printer. You ever try to get one of those bastards to work in Linux? Good luck with that! And can you guess what the most popular consumer printer is? That's right, you guessed it!

Oh, you mean those printer which cost 20$ a piece, and after 2 months will cost a whole 200$ *PER INK-CARTRIDGE* just to re-fill the ink ?!?
Seriously man, if you try to help your users use Lexmark printers, you're doing them a DISSERVICE !

It's just criminal for you to let your clients buy this crap.

Most of these pieces of junk which use ink cartridges with built-in proprietary print heads are just a PITA in the long term. The costs for ink are horribly high. And drivers tend to break after major OS change (but the average windows users are used to re-buy everything on major upgrades).

You should prefer something more standard that uses cheap plain ink or even better laser. It costs more upfront, but over the time the ink is order of magnitutde cheaper. And most of these non "lock-in maniacal" printers tend to speak standard protocols and thus are also better supported in Linux and have a higher chance of being better supported through generic drivers in the next revision of Windows.

If the users *really-really-really* want printers that are cheaper that their own ink (which I personaly find stupid : you buy a printer only once, but buy constantly ink during the lifetime of the machine - cost per page is much more important than initial cost), at least advise them to buy HP's inkjet crap.
It's similar lock-in marketed (if your users as so much into BDSM). But at least for the past several years they've spoken a standardized protocol (PCL) are better supported across major upgrades (and, you guessed it, happen to also have a better Linux support).

But you should get shot, hanged and drowned for letting your users buy a Lexmark.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't you be on the ledge of a building somewhere...

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a fscking clue here people, This "leak" is a marketing project from the word go.

Step 1: Build a virtually-nonfunctional but highly stable show-off OS with all of the important (and wildly unstable) compatibility turned off.

Step 2: Leak said software as your next great release and bemoan the loss of your great surprise unveiling.

Step 3: Pay lots of reviewers to fill comment sites about how terrific the fantastic OS is before most have ever seen it.

Step 4: Enjoy a *positive* rollout on the heals of your abomination of a release called 'Vista' and that horseshit "not vista" campaign that followed.

Step 4.5: ...

Step 5: Profit

Re:Lexmark printers : You're a criminal advising t

[hairyfeet]

Uuuuhhhh.......Hate to inform you dude, but Walgreen's refills them for a whole $10 a cart. And they get a printer/scanner/fax for $30. That is lexmark is #1 around here. Now go price a Linux all in one.....It's okay I'll wait..........It's about 4 times the above price, isn't it? The cheapest i was able to find one that was supposed to work in Kubuntu was for $98. There is a big difference between $30 and $98, especially when you are living on the margins like most shops are.

And are you actually advising me to tell customers to buy a laser printer. Are you high? The cheapest color laser is over $300! That is TEN TIMES the price! And you expect folks are going to do that for the privilege of running an OS they never heard of that none of their apps run on? Can I have some of what you are smoking?

If folks want to know why you will never get the shops on your side THIS right here is the answer. Because when we go on the forums trying to solve a legitimate problem we get told "tell them to buy a real printer..Lol Lusers". Folks still have the balls to say Linux is ready to be sold at retail when one of the largest brands in the entire country won't work in Linux? Are you going to set up a 24/7 Linux apology line and take those millions of now useless printers and recycle them? This is why MSFT rules the home desktop and will for the foreseeable future. Because when a guy like me who frankly Linux needs a lot more of selling the product on actual shelves instead of online where nobody can see it work, talks about legitimate problems we get remarks like the one above, or the one above that accusing me of a three way with Gates and Ballmer(thanks for that image asshole).

If you want Linux to succeed then just stop. Stop pretending the problems don't exist, stop blaming the customer when your OS don't work. If I was to try that how long do you think I would be in business? Now you know why I don't sell Linux. Admit the problems and rally the developers to come up with a solution. It don't have to be pretty, hell it don't even have to support more than one revision. I'm sure the users wouldn't mind not upgrading CUPS if it meant their printer will actually print, along with the scanner scanning and the fax faxing. Somehow you guys have managed to defeat the Winmodem and the Winwireless, now you have to defeat the Winprinter. Because if you don't you can kiss market penetration goodbye. MSFT has done taken the Netbooks away from you. But in this economy there is a lot of shops that would be happy to learn Linux so they could sell low cost machines. But until a company as large and as popular with the consumer as Lexmark is supported it just isn't worth the support nightmare. I bet if you asked Walmart that is why they don't carry the gOS PC anymore. Too hard to explain to the customers that none of the printers they buy there will actually work with their new PC. This can be done. But it requires that the elitist attitude gets shitcanned and that developers are actually willing to help Linux succeed. The ball is in your court.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[Arterion]

The New Coke / Coke Classic scam was so Coca-Cola could switch from using cane sugar to sweeten their cokes to using high fructose corn syrup.

Re:"Leak 2.0" the new e-marketing campaign package

[shutdown -p now]

You might have missed the fact that there was an official, non-leaked build of Windows 7 available before, and all the positive reviews and such so far were using that, and not this new leaked build.

Re:Lexmark printers : You're a criminal advising t

[Arterion]

No, but you might suggest a Kodak printer instead, which costs a little more upfront, but has sanely-priced ink. The other problem with the lexmarks is that they suck. That can't be overlooked, either.

I don't know the state of linux drivers for Kodak, though. I do know that HP makes good, reasonably-priced printers, and they are known for linux support. The ink is a little costly, but like you said, the refill business is booming. I hope it forces printer manufacturers back to a more honest business model.

What first post were you referring to?

[Lonewolf666]

For me (browsing at -1) the first post is a "Lunix sucks" anti-Linux post. At the time GP and I wrote our comments, it was moderated to -1(redundant). My post, and presumably GP's post, were comments about "redundant" being the wrong moderation.

BTW it is moderated to -1(Troll) now. On second thought, this fits even better than "offtopic".

Wake up, it aint 1970

[Anonymous Coward]

Then all the people who are pouring money into it would vanish. You think you can create an OS without money? Try paying the bandwidth fees yourself. Or try paying the kernel developers. Linux is FAR FAR FAR from being developed inside some basement. Big name companies pour millions into it. IIRC Almost a billion has been poured into Linux to date.

Its not a "hobby" and "freedom" OS any more. Its been thoroughly corporatized. The moment corporates stop footing these massive bills is the day linux dies.

Re:Lexmark printers : You're a criminal advising t

[ais523]

If the printer is cheaper than the ink, then why not just buy a new printer when it's time to change the ink? A lot of printer sales and no ink sales will send quite a strong message to the manufacturer...

M$ Windoze Sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

M$ Windoze just isn't ready for the desktop yet. It may be ready for the malware servers that you M$ addicts use to distribute Pron and personal information across teh intarwebs, but the average computer user is sick of spending months reinstalling M$ Windoze and then hours reinstalling non-free software so that they can get a workable machine to check their mail with just to get it pwned once again in a few weeks, especially not when they can get a workable GNU/Linux machine that already does its job perfectly well and is backed by freedom, stability, and security; as opposed to M$ Windoze which is only supported by M$ and char-throwing execs. The last thing I want is a chair-throwing fucktard providing me my OS which can be pwned in a mere minutes.

--
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Friends do assist M$ addicted friends in committing suicide.