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Casinos Warn iPhone Card-Counting App is Illegal
An anonymous reader writes "Gaming commissions in Nevada are informing casinos that a new card counting program has made its way to the Apple iPhone, called Hi Lo. This program can be used in the Stealth Mode. When the program is used in the Stealth Mode the screen of the phone will remain shut off, and as long as the user knows where the keys are located the program can be run effortlessly without detection. Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says 'Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075.'"
they no like a makey no money
she was the daughter of a wealthy florentine pogen read em and weep was her adjustable slogan
No kidding. I mean I've watched 21 and that episode of Hustle...those casino folks don't joke around!
Obligatory blog plug: http://www.caseybanner.ca/
They couldn't call it "Rainman"?
If the screen is off its all well and good to input card appearances with it hidden in your pocket, but how do you get its current odds output? Vibration or something like that?
Wrong:
The Nevada laws are friendly to the casinos, as they make Nevada a LOT of money.
My Babylon
I was recently in Las Vegas and it seems to me that an application like this would only find use in the smaller casinos. The bigger ones use card shuffling machines that I think continuously reshuffle the deck. After a hand the dealer puts the cards back into the machine which reshuffles the decks (I think they hold several decks). Anybody else know if this is how the machine works? Some of the smaller casinos offer 1 deck Black Jack with no machine used for better player odds. The smaller casinos need to draw more players in and have to offer better odds. These would help here.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Card counting really doesn't work that well in Vegas casinos unless you go with a distributed ring: its pretty obvious when an individual is card counting, if you miscount slightly the casino ends up winning big, and the casions can really mess you up, from shuffling more to "backrooming" you and intimidating the F-outta you.
But if they start suspecting this (which is easy, its just like detecting any other card counter, and then looking more fully at where you keep your hands), then they can not just backroom you, but through the legal process, make you WISH they'd just have settled for the old days when they'd have shoved your iPhone where the sun don't shine.
Test your net with Netalyzr
From our almighty master Google:
NRS 465.075
Use of device for calculating probabilities. It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the Commission.
Better yet, with the screen off, how do you, uh, see what the count is??
Whale
Counting cards is NOT illegal
Using a device to assist you in counting cards IS. Geico pointing out that drunk driving is illegal, but that doesn't mean that Geico is MAKING drunk driving illegal.
Further more, whoever submitted the post used a clever trick known as synonyms. Citing a violation of one of the many Nevada Revised Statues is the same as, gasp, warning that the app's usage IS ILLEGAL. Granted the headline could've included, "use of" instead of just the app name would be far more clear. But oh well.
Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
You mean it's unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, a brain?
Ah, well, no surprise there.
Both. According to the gaming laws in Nevada:
According to what you C&P'd, you can't read. It's legal to use it for your own game at your house, so it's legal to own. It's not legal to own it with the intent to use it to actually make money, and it's not legal to use it, either.
It is NOT illegal to own the software. It IS illegal to own the software if you intend to use it to defraud a casino.
The relevant standard in the US courts is "substantial non-infringing use".
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Any establishment may expell a player at will and doesnt need to have the physical counting computer. Of course, they'd like to keep the clumsy counters around, because they make money for the casinos.
Wikipeadia mentions computer programs that track cards (by camera recognition) and bets (RFIDs in chips). The computer computes several of the popular counting schemes and compares that against actual play. Positive correlation with actual betting is suspicion of counting and grounds for expulsion.
It's illegal to actually use it within the casinos. You can take your cell phone, even an iphone, into the casino. However, they have cameras with tape everywhere. If they catch you looking at your phone repeatedly, they will probably have probably cause to search your person. They can then try to get into your phone look to see if you have the app, and if you do they'll probably charge you right there. I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on a pin cracking software package so they don't have to get your permission. This of course has it's own legal issues, but casinos will err on the side of profits, and they don't care if the court case can't go thru, at least you are out of their casino. Let the courts worry about little things like civil rights. Winning a court case that your rights have been violated is hard against a casino whether or not you did cheat.
Casinos have the right to eject you and ban you from a casino for any reason. I've never experienced this because I don't gamble, but I wouldn't be surprised if they ask you to remove bluetooth headsets before sitting down at a table. If you refuse, bye bye, they don't have to "serve" you, like any private establishment.
However, just for the record, casinos don't beat you up for committing a crime or counting cards (unlike how the movie 21 portrayed it, that was a complete lie), no they don't make you sleep with the fishes any more, and you can only be charged with a crime if that crime is clearly stated in law. Counting in your head is not illegal. Counting using some kind of electronic device, or communicating with someone outside of the table using an electronic device to help you gamble are both illegal.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
There's an app for that!
No, it's a crime that people are so fucking stupid that they keep going and playing. It's one thing if gambling of the sort offered in Las Vegas were offered in every town on the planet, but people schedule entire vacations just to go out to Vegas and piss their money away. If it were offered everywhere, I'd agree it was messed up. But you have to physically go there, for pretty much the express purpose of gambling, to get ripped off. It boggles the mind.
I was busted for card counting just 10 days ago in Vegas. The pit boss politely leaned over and said, "Sir, we are going to have to ask you to stop playing blackjack."
I said, "ok", cashed in my chips and that was that. I got to keep the $200 I won and didn't even get escorted off the premises.
iPhone has an accelerometer, I use a step counting app all the time, imagine the step counting app keeping track, an up kick with your foot is +1, a down kick is -1 and when the app senses the time is right to bet, it vibrates
and fuck the casinos, they can all burn
Even if it weren't illegal, casinos really, really don't like card counters. Even those who do it entirely in their heads, if they are found out or simply start winning too consistently, can be asked to leave or escorted out of the casino. It's not a matter of legality or fairness; casinos regard it simply as cheating (anything that tips the odds they've established in their favor is cheating to them), barely above outright theft, and take action accordingly.
In extreme cases, they can add you to a blacklist that other casinos subscribe to. Enforcement of the blacklist starts getting into really impressive, and scary, Big-Brother stuff that governments could only dream of - automatic face recognition and tracking, cross-checking faces against the black list, logging time spent at such-and-such location (i.e., table), who happens to be around the person at the same time (to sniff out collaborative counting groups). Casinos can do it because they have lots of money and incentive to do so, plus they are working this stuff in a smaller environment that they design and control to the hilt.
Last paragraph:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.[...]
Wikipedia article on Card Counting:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.'
C'mon TechFragments. If you copy a Wikipedia article, which you shouldn't be doing anyway, you need to give a link back to the article you copied from and give proper attribution to its authors.
I looked at the pole dancers and boozed up, loosing maybe $20.
Obviously you are smarter then I am.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Time to break out the Kegelcizer?
Also, counting cards is not illegal in any shape or form.
Counting cards WITHOUT THE ASSISTANCE OF DEVICES is legal. If you can do it in your head, signal to collaborating people what the conditions are, etc. you cannot be charged, but if you are discovered counting cards you can be escorted off the property, as is the right of the private establishment.
However, if you use ANY sort of device, be it mechanical or electronic--even so much as a pad of post-it notes and a pen, you are now not only going to be escorted off the property, you are actually breaking the law and are likely to be arrested.
sooo...you are actually quite wrong when you say counting cards IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM is legal, because it clearly is not--only UNASSISTED counting of cards is legal.
Incidentally, the rule also applies to any gambling activity on the casino, not just card games. Some video slot machines have been known to have a poor pseudo-random algorithm and there have been a couple of cases I know of where mathematically inclined people have noticed this and profited from it. In one case, the casino could not press charges because the person in question actually sat and watched the machine himself for many hours. In another case, a concealed photographic device was used to do the observing and that person was charged and convicted.
...Or go and play poker, which is a different proposition altogether since you're playing against the other players at the table rather than the house.
You don't need an iPhone for what you described, people have been cheating using a step counter for years and even the best got caught from time to time. Pitbosses will have zero difficulty picking up a bunch of amateurs trying this. The only thing this does is reduce the barrier to entry for people without hardware experience.
I have a fundamental problem with the phrase "defraud a casino". Isn't that like saying "rob a thief"?
No, not really or at all. You go to the casino, willingly, and put money down on a game of chance to win. The casino, by law, states the odds of you winning. You have a willing decision to make. Play or not play. A thief robs you, you have no chance to win, and you have no willing choice to make.
Casino's are a legitimate business model. If you don't like the odds then don't play the game.
I do not support "The Man". I also do not support your irrational stupidity
In the 'high roller'/VIP rooms you still see traditional shoes more often. The bigger players like them, both because it's more traditional, and because they at least operate under the illusion they have a better chance of winning.
Now, lowly players like me still would prefer a shoe, but the casinos know that CSMs make more money - *not* by preventing card counting (which isn't happening at the low tables anyway) but by simply cutting out the time it takes the dealer to shuffle. More hands per hour = more money.
Why is counting cards illegal in poker or whatever playing environment? The whole idea of poker is statistics. And there's even a rule/law against that? Land of the free?
Here's the thing. If you are going to a casino to get money, you are kinda missing the point. The whole essence of the casino is sin, getting the drinks and the hookers and the whole nine yards of decadence and then a good steak, cigar, and a game of cards. That's a man's way to do things.
I mean, you could go to Disney and blow a few hundred bucks on Dumbo balloons... or you could go to Vegas, and gamble, get hammered and get laid. Hmmm, if you are going to blow money, why not blow it something cool. Believe me, once you get married, the gambling, cards, drinking are all going to go away.
The only thing that sucks about so many casinos and bars is that you can't smoke at them. What a stupid thing. A bunch of people whining about second hand smoke and then they all drive home drunk. It's just stupid. Quit being such a pussy about cancer, and smoke up.
This is my sig.
But... but... I live in Reno!
Rhapsody in Numbers
Obviously, card-counting with a device, mechanical, electronic, or even a pencil and paper, is flagrantly illegal. Everybody knows this.
However, card-counting in your head is not.
*BUT* they can kick you out if they suspect you are counting cards in your head, or will use any number of methods to screw up your mental counting, such as distraction (hecklers, waitresses with great tits, etc. They use the same methods for dice controllers too.).
Keep in mind, if someone says "This table is too hot for you", then leave. Immediately.
Card Counters caught cheating with a device are handed over to the police (if they are lucky), your mugshot is taken by casino personnel, and you are placed into a Black Book database, and effectively banned from every casino with access to the database.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
In the early 1980's, a group of Santa Cruz physics grad students built a set of computers into their cowboy boots. These timed the spinning of roulette wheels and applied Newtonian physics.
Thomas Bass wrote this up in the 1985 book, The Eudaemonic Pie, and caused the Nevada Gaming Commission to ban the use of these devices.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eudaemonic_Pie
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Ah, yes, Albert Einstein, the great statesman. Truly the one to turn to for theories of diplomacy, and not such paltry matters as physics.
Yes, because a man with such a brilliant mind for theoretical physics can't possibly have any insights into anything else.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
It actually wasn't illegal until 1985.
Previously they ahd the right to refuse you service.
Making it illegal probably came about becasue people who came to power in the industry don't actually understand the practicality of the industry. See RIAA.
You can count in your head, the law specifically talks about devices.
The casino does have the right to refuse service...however there not likely to care on any small wager.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on