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Casinos Warn iPhone Card-Counting App is Illegal
An anonymous reader writes "Gaming commissions in Nevada are informing casinos that a new card counting program has made its way to the Apple iPhone, called Hi Lo. This program can be used in the Stealth Mode. When the program is used in the Stealth Mode the screen of the phone will remain shut off, and as long as the user knows where the keys are located the program can be run effortlessly without detection. Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says 'Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075.'"
they no like a makey no money
she was the daughter of a wealthy florentine pogen read em and weep was her adjustable slogan
...that are too stupid to keep track of cards in your head.
Either way, you're still going to get kicked out of the casino and/or beaten to death.
How would some one inexperienced be able to operate the card counting app without drawing some massive amount of attention to them selves be with the the screen on or off.
Randall Sayre, of the Nevada Gaming Commission says "Use of this type of program or possession of a device with this type of program on it (with the intent to use it), in a licensed gaming establishment, is a violation of NRS 465.075."
So is it illegal to have it? Or just have the intent to use it? Five years for possession of illegal apps!
They couldn't call it "Rainman"?
Why is it that less then 50% of these things where private organizations, which cannot declare things to be illegal, make it as headlines on slashdot as they are. If you search for the word illegal on the article, no hits are returned.
Also, counting cards is not illegal in any shape or form. They have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason just like any other business.
The only exception to this in recent times has been when I think Apple declared something as illegal under the DMCA.
No I'm not counting cards, I'm masturbating.
one, two, three, four, tell me 'bout the Kings some more.
one, two, three, four, five, six, nine, and ten, I see that the dealer seems to have called some men
money can't buy you back the love that you had then, but it can get you out of jail on bail.
If the screen is off its all well and good to input card appearances with it hidden in your pocket, but how do you get its current odds output? Vibration or something like that?
I was recently in Las Vegas and it seems to me that an application like this would only find use in the smaller casinos. The bigger ones use card shuffling machines that I think continuously reshuffle the deck. After a hand the dealer puts the cards back into the machine which reshuffles the decks (I think they hold several decks). Anybody else know if this is how the machine works? Some of the smaller casinos offer 1 deck Black Jack with no machine used for better player odds. The smaller casinos need to draw more players in and have to offer better odds. These would help here.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
Card counting really doesn't work that well in Vegas casinos unless you go with a distributed ring: its pretty obvious when an individual is card counting, if you miscount slightly the casino ends up winning big, and the casions can really mess you up, from shuffling more to "backrooming" you and intimidating the F-outta you.
But if they start suspecting this (which is easy, its just like detecting any other card counter, and then looking more fully at where you keep your hands), then they can not just backroom you, but through the legal process, make you WISH they'd just have settled for the old days when they'd have shoved your iPhone where the sun don't shine.
Test your net with Netalyzr
Hello Foxwoods!!!! "The wonder of it all..."(commercial theme jingle)
Other than poker, there is no way to consistently play a game that will make you money and not break gambling laws. The only reason poker slides is because you're being charged to gamble against other players and you're not winning the house's money. It's like horse betting at the Kentucky Derby in that way.
And all those silly little electro-magnetic devices under the craps and roulette tables are legal???
All content in this message is copyright (c) 2008. All rights reserved. RIAA is prohibited here.
Don't go to casinos and support their stupid business!
same old setup, make sure the house always wins
it's a crime that greed still keeps the cut so deep
I'm waiting for the toothpick counting program.
iPhones still suck.
You are either visibly typing on a phone, or have it running in voice mode with ear buds with a hand in your pocket. I supposed you could get blue tooth earphones and hide them under a hat or wig.
Making money on card counting is based on betting the minimum amount when the count is bad and betting the maximum (or someone else betting it for you) when the count is good. It is looks extremely suspicious if someone varies their betting amounts like that. Dealers can also count and they are taught to recognize when the count is good. I see absolutely no use for an application like this.
What would you do as a dealer if someone always tapped something into their phone between BJ hands and varied their betting amounts?
For most card counting, you need one gesture for positive count, another for negative count. Toe tapping is an obvious gesture, but you could trained more hidden muscles.
You could have the accumulating count trigger voice results at a significant threshhold and deliver these by blue tooth earplug.
the project faces, Smith only serve WILL NOT WORK. AND architecture. my KEEP, AND I WON'T beIng GAY NIGGERS. of open-source.
Any establishment may expell a player at will and doesnt need to have the physical counting computer. Of course, they'd like to keep the clumsy counters around, because they make money for the casinos.
Wikipeadia mentions computer programs that track cards (by camera recognition) and bets (RFIDs in chips). The computer computes several of the popular counting schemes and compares that against actual play. Positive correlation with actual betting is suspicion of counting and grounds for expulsion.
It's illegal to actually use it within the casinos. You can take your cell phone, even an iphone, into the casino. However, they have cameras with tape everywhere. If they catch you looking at your phone repeatedly, they will probably have probably cause to search your person. They can then try to get into your phone look to see if you have the app, and if you do they'll probably charge you right there. I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on a pin cracking software package so they don't have to get your permission. This of course has it's own legal issues, but casinos will err on the side of profits, and they don't care if the court case can't go thru, at least you are out of their casino. Let the courts worry about little things like civil rights. Winning a court case that your rights have been violated is hard against a casino whether or not you did cheat.
Casinos have the right to eject you and ban you from a casino for any reason. I've never experienced this because I don't gamble, but I wouldn't be surprised if they ask you to remove bluetooth headsets before sitting down at a table. If you refuse, bye bye, they don't have to "serve" you, like any private establishment.
However, just for the record, casinos don't beat you up for committing a crime or counting cards (unlike how the movie 21 portrayed it, that was a complete lie), no they don't make you sleep with the fishes any more, and you can only be charged with a crime if that crime is clearly stated in law. Counting in your head is not illegal. Counting using some kind of electronic device, or communicating with someone outside of the table using an electronic device to help you gamble are both illegal.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
There's an app for that!
Problem solved. I shed no tears for anyone involved in the casino / hedge fund mafia getting their just deserts.
iPhone Sheep-Counting App
--- What?
I was busted for card counting just 10 days ago in Vegas. The pit boss politely leaned over and said, "Sir, we are going to have to ask you to stop playing blackjack."
I said, "ok", cashed in my chips and that was that. I got to keep the $200 I won and didn't even get escorted off the premises.
Even if it weren't illegal, casinos really, really don't like card counters. Even those who do it entirely in their heads, if they are found out or simply start winning too consistently, can be asked to leave or escorted out of the casino. It's not a matter of legality or fairness; casinos regard it simply as cheating (anything that tips the odds they've established in their favor is cheating to them), barely above outright theft, and take action accordingly.
In extreme cases, they can add you to a blacklist that other casinos subscribe to. Enforcement of the blacklist starts getting into really impressive, and scary, Big-Brother stuff that governments could only dream of - automatic face recognition and tracking, cross-checking faces against the black list, logging time spent at such-and-such location (i.e., table), who happens to be around the person at the same time (to sniff out collaborative counting groups). Casinos can do it because they have lots of money and incentive to do so, plus they are working this stuff in a smaller environment that they design and control to the hilt.
Possession of a cheating device in a casino is a misdemeanor. Like others have said, using said device may be a death sentence.
Last paragraph:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.[...]
Wikipedia article on Card Counting:
'The idea behind counting cards in blackjack is that a deck of cards with a high proportion of high cards (ten-valued cards and aces) to low cards is good for the player, while the reverse (a deck with a high proportion of low cards to high cards) is good for the dealer.'
C'mon TechFragments. If you copy a Wikipedia article, which you shouldn't be doing anyway, you need to give a link back to the article you copied from and give proper attribution to its authors.
If the screen is black you don't see the running count?
Counting the cards is easy enough without the phone and becomes second nature. I can't look at a table without getting a sum nowadays.
The hard part is memorizing all the tables, and the phone can't help with that.
1. ANY device used to count cards or cheat in any way is illegal. If you can do it in your head, you are ok. If doing it in you head card counting is perfectly legal (though they will probably toss you if they think you are doing it, or if you even just win too much)
2. ANYONE who has been to vegas knows they don't let you dick around on your phone while playing. You can't even talk for any length of time (sometimes not at all). So reports/reviews of making 50 grand etc with this app is total BS.
Only time I can see this being helpful is in online gambling, and maybe only if they tell you the number of decks used etc.
May not be permitted on the grounds, but that does NOT make it illegal.
Casinos do not make the laws and those that think they do should have their license revoked.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I looked at the pole dancers and boozed up, loosing maybe $20.
Obviously you are smarter then I am.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You are correct that the app itself isn't "illegal" in a general sense, but it is a crime to possess it inside of a casino in the state of Nevada:
It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist: (2) In keeping track of the cards played
CRIMES AND LIABILITIES CONCERNING GAMING
Last time I was in a casino I saw the tiny decks and ran to the table. I'd had no problems counting on an 8 deck shoe in the past so I was excited at the faster turnaround.
When I watch the table for a minute, I realize they cut the deck in half, discard half, and play with the other half. EVERY FACE CARD could be in the other half... there is no way to know. DOH!
It was alright though. I just sat at the bar and played $5 video poker to get a free drink, and cashed out as soon as I was up or even. Yay for free beer!
...thanks to the native Americans, there are card rooms and casinos popping up everywhere. And not all of them are as smart or well equipped as the Vegas mob is. Smart card counters can just steer clear of the big operations and still make plenty of money elsewhere.
The problem will be explaining why you are fiddling with your iPhone when there's no cellular coverage out in Dogpatch, Kentucky.
Have gnu, will travel.
In the 'high roller'/VIP rooms you still see traditional shoes more often. The bigger players like them, both because it's more traditional, and because they at least operate under the illusion they have a better chance of winning.
Now, lowly players like me still would prefer a shoe, but the casinos know that CSMs make more money - *not* by preventing card counting (which isn't happening at the low tables anyway) but by simply cutting out the time it takes the dealer to shuffle. More hands per hour = more money.
Why is counting cards illegal in poker or whatever playing environment? The whole idea of poker is statistics. And there's even a rule/law against that? Land of the free?
Just watch the stupid MIT black jack show already. It is entertaining and enlightening. Master card counters work in groups where you've got someone counting the cards but not winning and when the count goes really in your favor you signal for the closer to come to the table, clean up and go.
Doesn't the NRS 465.075 regulation prohibit me from bringing my brain into a casino?
GC
That's not true at all. Card counting is perfectly legal, as long as you aren't using a "device".
Really, wow - Casinos do cheat. The info on what they do (like stacking 10 decks to the 'shoe', rigging up the odds on the slot machines and dice games, etc) is available all over the net.
Gotta wonder, how many casino employees did it take logging in to find the mod points to call an honest and insightful post "flamebait"?
If you can read this sig, congratulations, you have your glasses on!
.
You'd instantly see that the casinos all protect themselves by dealing only 3 decks into a 10 deck shoe, then going to the next shoe. That eliminates pretty much all the advantage you could glean from card counting.
Why does every problem require a fucking lawyer? Some just need a mathematician.
Here's the thing. If you are going to a casino to get money, you are kinda missing the point. The whole essence of the casino is sin, getting the drinks and the hookers and the whole nine yards of decadence and then a good steak, cigar, and a game of cards. That's a man's way to do things.
I mean, you could go to Disney and blow a few hundred bucks on Dumbo balloons... or you could go to Vegas, and gamble, get hammered and get laid. Hmmm, if you are going to blow money, why not blow it something cool. Believe me, once you get married, the gambling, cards, drinking are all going to go away.
The only thing that sucks about so many casinos and bars is that you can't smoke at them. What a stupid thing. A bunch of people whining about second hand smoke and then they all drive home drunk. It's just stupid. Quit being such a pussy about cancer, and smoke up.
This is my sig.
I remember as an undergrad we would hold our yearly casino night at our dorm. The math and physics professors would sit down and clear us out. Good thing max bets were $2. If I knew about card counting then...
And obvious gestures are usually the easiest ones to get caught using.
Go ahead Casino rejects... the truth will be told. You can't downmod insightful, truthful posts forever.
If you can read this sig, congratulations, you have your glasses on!
Is the iPhone a good driver?
Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
Obviously, card-counting with a device, mechanical, electronic, or even a pencil and paper, is flagrantly illegal. Everybody knows this.
However, card-counting in your head is not.
*BUT* they can kick you out if they suspect you are counting cards in your head, or will use any number of methods to screw up your mental counting, such as distraction (hecklers, waitresses with great tits, etc. They use the same methods for dice controllers too.).
Keep in mind, if someone says "This table is too hot for you", then leave. Immediately.
Card Counters caught cheating with a device are handed over to the police (if they are lucky), your mugshot is taken by casino personnel, and you are placed into a Black Book database, and effectively banned from every casino with access to the database.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
you probably exerted more effort and time than a shift at a fast food restaurant, and wound up with less money, and didn't have mob run casinos red flagging you every time you go in a door. that's WHY you didn't have a visit to a room with no cameras with some intimidating fellas: its just $200
now if you were making $2,000 ok, its worth your effort. $20,000 even better. but then the casinos wouldn't just ask you to leave
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Getting caught cheating Vegas Casinos? No biggie.
So, you lose your phone. Or is it the use of your right hand. I can never get those two straight.
There's an app for that.
In the early 1980's, a group of Santa Cruz physics grad students built a set of computers into their cowboy boots. These timed the spinning of roulette wheels and applied Newtonian physics.
Thomas Bass wrote this up in the 1985 book, The Eudaemonic Pie, and caused the Nevada Gaming Commission to ban the use of these devices.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eudaemonic_Pie
I'm not sure that this should even be considered "cheating" because all you're doing is using perfect strategy. To me, it's fundamentally different from, say, having aces up your sleeve.
Anyhow, the fact that there are laws like this with penalties that severe reminds me of how the RIAA operates. Of course, I'm having trouble seeing the difference between the MAFIAA and the mafia, so that's hardly surprising.
But there's no way that cheating in a casino is any worse than ordinary theft and I don't see why it gets especially harsh punishment except as a favor to casinos.
"You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war." -- Albert Einstein
Ah, yes, Albert Einstein, the great statesman. Truly the one to turn to for theories of diplomacy, and not such paltry matters as physics.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Card counting is legal, the casino's don't like it but it is.
However, using any kind of computing device, either electronic of mechanical, is illegal. Period.
I have been counting cards in Blackjack for years and grinding out a modest return -- it pays for the trip to Vegas and concommitant fun. No, I don't use iPhone or other devices. The danger of detection exists -- the casinos videotape everything and can rerun the session and assess your play. The solution is to lose yourself in the crowd: play for an hour at most before you move on, and avoid greed.
And so it was, for years... until the 6- and 8- deck shoes became ubiquitous and utterly diluted the counter's advantage. Thanks for the memories :)
The underlying goal of any game is to win. The rules of casino-games are set up to make winning in the long run nearly impossible. I can never understand why counting is illegal. You are simply navigating within the rules of the game, to increase your chance of winning. Now I realize this is about not using an appliance to gain an edge, but I get the feeling manual counting is almost equally frowned upon. You are allowed to sit there and give your money away, but try to win and you're in the gray? I smell corruption from all the way across the atlantic.
We are the house. We control the odds. You may not do anything that shifts the odds to your favor. Just hand the money over without making a fuss. Thank you for playing.
The interesting thing is that iPhone application is not even in the Top 100 paid apps on iTunes. Instead another App with simular name, "Card Counter", has risen into the Top 25 probably because they are taking the legal approach and offering a video game that trains you to count without a device. As somebody pointed out you still have to learn basic strategy so it makes since to also learn how to count instead of using an illegal device and ending up in jail!
...but I was using the verb "counting" in the same sense as "flying." If you're not doing it successfully, you're not "flying" any more, you're "falling". :-)
But yes, you're absolutely correct. Reminds me of a quote I heard from a casino boss, something along the lines of "Some people come with their paycheck. We send free food to those people. Some people come with real money. Those people we comp rooms for. Some people come with real money and a SYSTEM. We send limos and women for those guys..."
He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
This story is inaccurate.
The App is actually called "A Blackjack Card Counter" created by Webtopia http://www.webtopia.com.au/apps/bjcardcounter.php and is available in the iTunes store.
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=294151538&mt=8
Naturally, this piques my curiosity (and gives me the urge to go out and purchase or build such a device just so I can own something that is illegal in another state). But after reading the statute in question, I am not really clear on what specific items are a felony to own. The only section that stands out in that regard is NRS 465.080, which outlines materials prohibited because they can be used to make counterfeit coins, chips, tokens, etc.
Lead and lead alloys are on that list, so technically you could get arrested if you're found with a lead fishing weight in your pocket. (Yeah, I know, lead is being replaced by tungsten and other metals for sinkers.) If two or more items from the prohibited list are on your person (say, a torch and a pair of tongs), that permits a "rebuttable inference" that you intended to use them for cheating... and not, say, lighting charcoal for your hookah. I'm assuming a "rebuttable inference" means that you're allowed to provide a rebuttal to the claim you're using the items for cheating, presumably by telling the authorities what you were really using them for.
So anyway, I'd really like to know what devices are actually a felony to own.
The rest of the statute is just as scary sounding. Casino employees are permitted to detain and question anyone suspected of cheating. In what other state of the Union would a non-cop or other non-state, non-federal employee be permitted to do such a thing? They don't even have to worry about civil or criminal liability for conducting such questioning or for detaining someone against their will. Any "evidence" seized does not have to be returned if the case goes to trial, and can be disposed of even if it isn't produced in court. Devices seized which don't result in charges, but which are considered prohibited devices, are still retained by the Gaming Board and destroyed by them.
So, probably not a good idea to take your iPhone into any casino just to be safe, because even if you're deemed innocent, you might not get your property back.
When I work in the industry, the boars sent out a memo reminding Casinos that card counting device where NOT illegal; however the casino did have the right to refuse service to anyone.
Now it's a law. So now I can't even open a casino the explicit allowed them.
"These timed the spinning of roulette wheels and applied Newtonian physics."
to what gain? I mean they must ahve found a person who doesn't know how to throw a ball for that to work.or devised a way to calculate spin for each throw. I'd like to see this in action.
Naturally the way this should ahve been countered is with all bets stand as soon as the wheel starts spinning.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This story is about my app!
The media interest means sales are up! http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2009/02/21/29805_local-news.html
For more about it see
http://www.webtopia.com.au/apps/bjcardcounter.php
or the iTunes Store
http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=294151538&mt=8