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Doctors Silencing Online Patient Reviews Via Contract

Condiment writes "Next time you're sick, take five and actually read the pile of contracts your doctor dumps on your lap, because it's becoming more and more likely that your doctors are banning patients from posting reviews on the Web. You heard that right: as a prerequisite to receiving medical care, patients are in many cases required to sign away their First Amendment rights!"

324 comments

  1. non-issue by Em+Emalb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    see subject.

    You can't ban free speech, at least not in this country.

    Although they're working on it.

    --
    Sent from your iPad.
    1. Re:non-issue by Arthur+B. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Freedom of speech includes the right to waive that freedom in particular cases. NDA's for example.

      This is not censorship or a ban on free speech.

      This is a questionable practice, it's doomed to fail because anonymity makes it unenforceable, it's counter productive, it's idiotic, but it is not a violation of freedom of speech.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    2. Re:non-issue by Em+Emalb · · Score: 2, Informative

      yes, you're correct. However, it is a censuring of a "right" in that if I go to a doctor and receive treatment and don't like the treatment...I should by the inherent right of our freedoms be able to post my opinion about it.

      This is lame. I'm so tired of hearing/reading about crap like this, it just frustrates me. How dare I voice a negative opinion about some stupid doctor's office? Please.

      There outta be a law....:D

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    3. Re:non-issue by Hordeking · · Score: 1

      yes, you're correct. However, it is a censuring of a "right" in that if I go to a doctor and receive treatment and don't like the treatment...I should by the inherent right of our freedoms be able to post my opinion about it.

      This is lame. I'm so tired of hearing/reading about crap like this, it just frustrates me. How dare I voice a negative opinion about some stupid doctor's office? Please.

      Nothing a few disgruntled patients with high aggression levels won't fix.

      There outta be a law....:D

      Now you've gone and made me cry.

      --
      Disclaimer: The opinions and actions of the US Gov't are in no way representative of those held by this author or its ci
    4. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The government can't ban free speech. (In theory, anyway.) Private individuals have more latitude.

      I once lost a job after disagreeing with a political rant a customer was making. (I thought I was polite and respectful; the customer disagreed.) Abridgment of my free speech rights! But no, two different lawyers assured me that employer was well within his rights in regulating workplace discourse.

       

    5. Re:non-issue by neapolitan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a doctor, I would just add that doctors that are nice, and doctors that are skilled, are weakly correlated. Patients are, in general, able to evaluate the first trait, but not as well the second. It is a shame, because misunderstandings happen -- you see every permutation: very good doctors that don't have excellent people skills, very good doctors that are jerks because they think they are so good, (technically) bad doctors that are really nice, doctors with substance abuse problems, patients that are completely unreasonable and on their fifth physician whom they will shortly badmouth, and good doctors that told the patient something honestly that they didn't want to hear, who subsequently leave and badmouth the doctor.

      It's a very complex issue, and difficult to sum up in a little pithy paragraph or two.

      What I would counter to this particular 'problem,' is, make a list of doctors who make you sign such contract, and post it for everybody to see. That would surely not be illegal, and just do not go to any of these doctors. It is like a prenuptial agreement -- I can see how it would be useful / essential for some people, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a situation that requires this.

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      Slashdotter, ID #101. UIDs are in binary, right?
    6. Re:non-issue by terraformer · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech includes the right to waive that freedom in particular cases. NDA's for example.

      This is not censorship or a ban on free speech.

      This is a questionable practice, it's doomed to fail because anonymity makes it unenforceable, it's counter productive, it's idiotic, but it is not a violation of freedom of speech.

      But if the doctor is paid in any way by medicare/medicaid or any other government funded source, they can not force this clause.

      --
      Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
    7. Re:non-issue by Em+Emalb · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Dude, been there, done that, except for the getting fired part.

      Had a guy go off one time on the phone about Clinton's "cigar" and "I didn't have sexual relations" thing when I was on the phone with him. He asked me my opinion and I said I didn't really care, as his getting (or not getting) some nookie didn't have anything to do with the state of the country. He got really irritated that I thought that (should have said I have no opinion, in hindsight) and then started lambasting democrats, Clinton, etc, complete with f-bombs and all that. I just hung up on him. Not because I'm a Clinton apologist, but because I didn't care.

      When they asked me about it, I said I accidentally hit the release button on my headset. They wanted to punish me for pissing off the customer, but since they couldn't prove the hangup was intentional, they couldn't. Win-win. I got to hang up on a butthead and received no punishment for it. (I quit that company not long after that) :)

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    8. Re:non-issue by neapolitan · · Score: 1

      Reference? I don't think this is true... In general a doctor can not abandon a patient in need (ER doctor, rural doctor, etc.), and can not systematically discriminate (I won't treat Italians / African Americans, etc.), but they are free to treat whoever they want otherwise.

      Regarding signing an agreement to post negative comments, I would think this requires a prior court case, because I doubt any such language in the Medicare/aid legislature rules are specific enough to be directly applied. I'm sure the wording of the contract the doctors are making patients sign is also ambiguous or specific enough ("electronic mass medium / internet webforum" or whatever term they used might have not even existed really when the medicare provision was drafted).

      Alas, that is how lawyers make their millions and become parasites of the system in some ways, but do good things for many people in other ways.

      --
      Slashdotter, ID #101. UIDs are in binary, right?
    9. Re:non-issue by DrLang21 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a patient, I would just like to add that to any reasonable person (I know the existence of these patients can be rare) it's generally assumed that most negative feedback is first exaggerated, and second, not necessarily linearly proportional to the negative experiences. People are a lot more likely to go out of their way to write feedback when they are emotionally moved (ala, being pissed off). Good experiences don't often strongly move people emotionally... at least not like bad experiences can. So the point to take here is, don't worry too much about the negative feedback. Once enough doctors around you have feedback, it will not matter unless you really have a disproportionate amount of negative feedback, which should make you consider the possibilities that you really do deserve it, or that you are a victim of libel slander.

      --
      I see the glass as full with a FoS of 2.
    10. Re:non-issue by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      A++++++

      Would get my prostate check there again!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re:non-issue by LordEd · · Score: 1

      Question: Are they silencing your right to let the world know that as a term of being a patient, you may not review them?

      Review: 3 stars out of 5

      Rating only reflects my inability to rate doctor based on contractual requirements not to rate or review doctor publicly.

    12. Re:non-issue by Arthur+B. · · Score: 1

      It is like a prenuptial agreement -- I can see how it would be useful / essential for some people, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a situation that requires this.

      Quite the opposite, the prenup allows you to *keep* some freedom that you would lose with the default marriage.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    13. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Arguably, the government is taking away your freedom of speech, in this instance, through its enforcement of contract law.

    14. Re:non-issue by fratermus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd say the agreement could be that the patient is free to post about the doctor. The patient agrees that doing so allows the physician to post, in public, about the patient. This should help us identify legitimate whistleblowers from Munchhausen whackjob hypochondriacs and whiners.

      --
      L.V.X., brother mouse
    15. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. Free speech means the GOVERNMENT cannot silence you. This is a contract between two private parties which you are free to not sign. Find another doctor if this bothers you.

    16. Re:non-issue by timmarhy · · Score: 1
      I think the issue is that since they are being paid with federal money, they are bound by the same restrictions as a government agency which means the just have to suck it up if someone bad mouths thems.

      of course if this is entirely a private matter with no tax payers money involved it's the same as an NDA and would be binding. really i think it's stupid to pay any attention to online reviews of a doctor. people emotionally envolved in a medical procedure that went wrong won't be able to give an objective opinion on it.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    17. Re:non-issue by Iluvatar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What you say about anonymity is really important.

      Solving the problem at it's root would require that *both* doctors and their reviewers/patients can be held accountable for what they do or say, respectively. Reciprocity is fair.

      However, the only thing such a measure will eventually achieve is to encourage anonymous reviews. An anonymous reviewer cannot be held accountable for anything.

      In that respect this measure is just another example brain dead example of technology-blindness. It's not the first and certainly not the last, no surprise here!

    18. Re:non-issue by mapkinase · · Score: 0, Troll

      doctors that are skilled, are weakly correlated. Patients are, in general, able to evaluate the first trait, but not as well the second.

      For a Muslim, it's always fun to see "democracy" fail. /i haven't been trolling for a while...

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    19. Re:non-issue by usman_ismail · · Score: 1

      Have you seen some of the waiver forms we are forced to sign. It might not be all that easy to sue a doctor.

    20. Re:non-issue by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Win-win. I got to hang up on a butthead and received no punishment for it. (I quit that company not long after that) :)

      But you should have know better than to take the job with the RNC if you didn't expect that sort of thing.

      --
      That is all.
    21. Re:non-issue by morghanphoenix · · Score: 1

      If it is an emergency, and they are witholding medical treatment from you for no other reason than your refusal to sign this agrement, isn't that grounds to sue them? I really don't care for the "sue 'em all mentality" most people seem to have, but a good lawsuit might make some of these idiots realize they're making a mistake. It's not like suing McDonnalds because you're too dumb to realize that coffee is hot, this is someone who is taking away your right to discuss services rendered or denying you those services. And while in most cases this really isn't serious enough to merit legal actions, in this case it really could be a matter of life and death.

    22. Re:non-issue by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      "It's a very complex issue, and difficult to sum up in a little pithy paragraph or two."

      How about "regardless of skill, doctors are humans too".

      I'm not from the US, the thing that grabbed my attention in TFS was "the pile of contracts your doctor dumps on your lap". Why is there a pile of contracts in the first place?

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    23. Re:non-issue by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

      And essentially get rid of select patients' confidentiality privileges with their doctors? That sounds like nonsense at first, but then on second thought, it seems like a good idea with a bad side-effect. Actually, that's not unlike a birth control pill. Ever pay attention to the side-effects on those things? Possible heart attack, stroke, and other deadly stuff, all to prevent pregnancy? I would hope that pregnancy would be seen as merciful relative to an injury/death like that.

      Anyway, it's a great idea in theory, because the "punishment" fits the "crime", where here the "crime" is speaking about the doctor. The bad side-effect is that anything that the patient told the doctor in confidence would no longer be confidential. And what you suggest even screws over people who post praises of their doctors. Now, you could remedy your idea to include only those who speak poorly of their physicians, but then again, "speaking poorly of a doctor" is quite a subjective piece of material. Not everyone agrees on what it means to speak poorly of someone.

      Um...tl;dr version - sorry, but while it sounds nice, I think there's probably too many problems with your idea.

      --
      Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
    24. Re:non-issue by DiegoBravo · · Score: 1

      > Alas, that is how lawyers make their millions and become parasites of the system in some ways, but do good things for many people in other ways.

      Yes, they do some good things: they defend the people against your former parasites. In the end, both kinds of lawyers get millionaires.

    25. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather than ban all patient reviews it might be more effective to require them.

    26. Re:non-issue by Eil · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nobody's banning free speech. Patients are within their rights to refuse to sign the contract and take their business elsewhere to another hospital or doctor. It's not like health care is that hard to find. (It's just hard to pay for thanks to the insurance industry.)

      The very purpose of a contract is that it releases you from or binds you to certain obligations. If you sign a contract saying you won't post a review of your doctor on a website, you are bound by the contract to not post a review of your doctor on a website. If you post the review anyway, your doctor can sue for breach of contract. That's the way contract law works.

      Now, do most people believe that they should have the right post a review of their doctor online, regardless of what's in their health care contract? Of course! And if your doctor did sue you for breach of contract, it's likely that the judge would rule against you and order you to remove the post because you did break the contract.

      I know that every time someone says, "there ought to be a law," god kills a kitten, but in this case there really should be a law stating that businesses (which doctors and hospitals are) do not have the right to prevent you, via contract or other means, from writing a public statement of your experience with that business as long as that statement does not constitute libel.

      Of course, IANAL, so I'm open to other suggestions but this seems to best way to go.

    27. Re:non-issue by jroysdon · · Score: 1

      How about NDAs that are required for you to do your job at your employer? What if you don't want to agree to the NDA, but it is go along with the ride or starve?

      That's why we have labor laws, to protect workers from employers who would take advantage of them.

      Sounds like we need the same sort of law to protect patients from Doctors who want to take away rights they should not be able to take away.

    28. Re:non-issue by What+is+WOW · · Score: 0

      So, you lied to your employer when you were confronted with violating company policy. "I got to break the rules and I didn't get punished." No wonder you dind't have an opinion.

    29. Re:non-issue by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Does freedom from indentured servitude or slavery include the right to waive that freedom from indentured servitude or slavery?

      They're called inalienable rights for a reason. The founding fathers didn't even want you to be able to legally silence yourself.

    30. Re:non-issue by Ihmhi · · Score: 2, Funny

      B-

      Hands were cooooold BRRRRRRRR

    31. Re:non-issue by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      It wasn't that they prevented you from speaking, but that they terminated your employment. Whether it was right to sack you is a matter for employment law, but they weren't directly preventing you from speaking.

      But what happens here? If you post about it, and they then choose not to give you healthcare, then yes that would be comparable (although I'll add, it's also a problem that comes from having to rely on private healthcare). If however they sue you, and expect the Government to force you to stop speaking, or punish you for having done so, then it surely becomes a first amendment issue.

      TFA is unclear on what tactic they are using.

    32. Re:non-issue by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      And who exactly is it that enforces the contract, if one of you decides it isn't valid or fair? That's right, the Government.

    33. Re:non-issue by pentalive · · Score: 1

      The Bill of Rights only affects the government, not citizens like doctors. So no the Doctor is not taking away your first amendment rights.

      Try Crossing out that portion of the paper, or just don't sign it. And perhaps try getting another doctor.

    34. Re:non-issue by mdwh2 · · Score: 1

      The very purpose of a contract is that it releases you from or binds you to certain obligations. If you sign a contract saying you won't post a review of your doctor on a website, you are bound by the contract to not post a review of your doctor on a website. If you post the review anyway, your doctor can sue for breach of contract. That's the way contract law works. ...

      I know that every time someone says, "there ought to be a law," god kills a kitten, but in this case there really should be a law stating that businesses (which doctors and hospitals are) do not have the right to prevent you, via contract or other means, from writing a public statement of your experience with that business as long as that statement does not constitute libel.

      Well that's not so far fetched - it's all very well saying "That's the way contract law works.", but the point is that there are some things you can't give up a right to, even if you signed a contract. Whether people should be prevented from giving reviews here is ultimately up to the courts to decide, even if they did sign a contract. And yes, I agree that they should be allowed to, even if they've signed a contract. If however the Government decides that you should be prevented for reviewing, then the Government is banning free speech.

    35. Re:non-issue by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 1

      If you're concerned about it, insist on striking the clause from the contract. If the doctor says no, go somewhere else.

    36. Re:non-issue by Thinboy00 · · Score: 1

      [snip]
      I'm not from the US, the thing that grabbed my attention in TFS was "the pile of contracts your doctor dumps on your lap". Why is there a pile of contracts in the first place?

      IANAL, but:
      1. So you don't sue them (but see also good samaritan laws)
      2. To make sure you are legally required to pay your bill (unless you are in an ER)
      3. To clog the tubes.
      4. To sneak stuff like this past you without your noticing.
      5. To ensure their lawyer retains a job.
      6. There is no rule six.
      7. Because some people will just sign anything you give them, much as most lusers will hit "OK"/"Yes" on dialog boxes without reading them.

      --
      $ make available
    37. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      F---- Dont' go for a checkup with this doctor. He said I had high blood pressure and was overweight! WTF!!!!

    38. Re:non-issue by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      {Quite the opposite, the prenup allows you to *keep* some freedom that you would lose with the default marriage."

      That's why you never marry them...at the very worst, live with them if you must, it is kinda like living with an option to buy.

      But don't marry them...that way, when it is time to trade up to a newer model...you don't lose half your shit...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    39. Re:non-issue by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      FTFA: doctors are asking patients to sign agreements that bar them from posting comments on everything from review sites to blogs, and then attempting to have the reviews removed if they break the gag order.

      This is not censorship

      What do you think "censorship" stands for? A special kind of steam locomotives???

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship
      Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful or sensitive, as determined by a censor.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    40. Re:non-issue by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you really desperately need to understand the principle behind waiving your rights, it only last as long as you choose to allow it to last. The second, the very second you say 'NO' regardless of how many times you said yes, wrote yes, signed yes or even nodded your head, the 'NO' takes force. So you change your mind and whoa, miracle or miracles your full rights are back, as if they never left you, which in reality is the truth.

      BS like that agreement are all about legal bluff and threats, attempting to threaten you with the costs of fighting for your rights in civil court ie. making you pay thousands of dollars to prove what is already in law. Of course you could still loose in court thanks to corrupt judges and incompetent lawyers (who often as it turns out, go on to be corrupt political appointee judges).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    41. Re:non-issue by Jurily · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech includes the right to waive that freedom in particular cases. NDA's for example.

      You're not waiving it, they take it away from you. Unless you think you're in a position to just refuse. And if you are, why the hell are you seeing a doctor anyway?

      Medical care is not an area that should be allowed to impose additional rules on the service they provide, for exactly this reason.

    42. Re:non-issue by syousef · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a doctor, I would just add that doctors that are nice, and doctors that are skilled, are weakly correlated.

      I'm tired of doctors on slashdot saying STUPID things like this. I am troubled and angered that a doctor can be so incredibly blind that they'd make such awful statements.

      Being "nice" is a PRE-REQUISIT to a doctor being skilled. A doctor who can't build a rapport and trust with the patient is not going to be able to get ALL the pertinent information. They will make mistakes ignoring and misdiagnosing the patient. If their people skills are so poorly developed they are likely to allow their own biases to cloud their judgement. I've seen this first hand. Doctors insisting there is nothing wrong with a patient that's showing clinical symptoms that can't be faked.

      Also doctors that aren't "nice" and don't genuinely care about their patients are more likely to be sloppy with their diagnosis and treatment because it just doesn't matter to them. For example I've seen 3 doctors fail to check the contraindications on a patient's medicine while each one upped the dosage and caused the adverse reaction to increase until it was life threatening. Then when brought to the specialist's attention he said "oh okay...maybe you should stop then" failing again to check that suddenly stopping said medication makes people suicidal.

      It is a shame, because misunderstandings happen -- you see every permutation: very good doctors that don't have excellent people skills, very good doctors that are jerks because they think they are so good, (technically) bad doctors that are really nice, doctors with substance abuse problems, patients that are completely unreasonable and on their fifth physician whom they will shortly badmouth, and good doctors that told the patient something honestly that they didn't want to hear, who subsequently leave and badmouth the doctor.

      You and I define "good doctor" differently. As long as people skills and clinical skills are seen as separate and distinct, the medical profession will continue to decline.

      What I would counter to this particular 'problem,' is, make a list of doctors who make you sign such contract, and post it for everybody to see. That would surely not be illegal, and just do not go to any of these doctors. It is like a prenuptial agreement -- I can see how it would be useful / essential for some people, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a situation that requires this.

      The trouble with this is most people are so apathetic that they'll just see you as some trouble maker on a holy crusade. If a doctor tried to make me sign something like that I'd simply look for another doctor. If all doctors available to me did this I'd be double checking everything they did and getting second opinions all over the place because I would realize the doctors don't even come close to being interested in my well being.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    43. Re:non-issue by indiechild · · Score: 1

      I don't normally advocate lying but I think what he did was perfectly understandable and acceptable under the circumstances.

      And he did the right thing again when he left the company soon after.

    44. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      It wasn't that they prevented you from speaking, but that they terminated your employment. Whether it was right to sack you is a matter for employment law, but they weren't directly preventing you from speaking.

      Right. And when a dictator has you shot for speaking out against him, he's not preventing you from speaking out.

    45. Re:non-issue by Wandering+Wombat · · Score: 4, Funny

      What confuses me is... your doctors give you contracts? To HEAL you?

      ...

      I think I've found a flaw in your medical system. In Canada, doctors give us medicine.

      --
      I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
    46. Re:non-issue by ColaMan · · Score: 4, Funny

      C- Whilst *vigorously* checking prostate, he reached forward with one hand to pick up my file and had to use his other hand to steady himself on my shoulder. He knew that shoulder hurt from an old sports injury yet still he leaned on it - very unprofessional.

      Exam took a while too, but he said he had to be sure everything was ok, so I suppose that's one good thing in his favour.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    47. Re:non-issue by fractoid · · Score: 2, Funny

      I know that every time someone says, "there ought to be a law," god kills a kitten [...]

      Actually, this is a case of correlation != causation. There's a hidden common factor - every time someone says "there ought to be a law", a laywer m@$#urbates.

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    48. Re:non-issue by bitrex · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's difficult for any doctor to be nice when they're overworked, and as a patient with a neurological illness that has not been conclusively diagnosed in the past 3 years who has seen 9 specialists in that time, I've seen my share of good and bad physicians. All of them have been overworked, it goes without saying. Interestingly, the physicians who have been able to shed the most light upon the possible causes for my suffering and do the most to relieve its symptoms all were physicians who had their own essentially private practices and answered to nobody but themselves. They always run an hour to two hours late in seeing their patients. Nobody in the waiting room cares, because they know they'll get at least a half hour of time with the physician to work through everything. The last time I was at Super Huge Specialist Head & Neck Neurological Hopsital That Advertises a Lot in Big Northeastern City I timed how long my appointment took - 8.5 minutes. How can one possibly hope to make it through all the issues that come up with neurological problems in that time?

      I have to say that when the symptoms of this illness first came on after the "fever of unknown origin" I had in 2006 I thought to myself: "I'm screwed." Neurological symptoms aren't like a sucking chest wound - but I was still consistently amazed at the number of physicians who seemed incapable of believing that I was in excruciating pain because there was no physical evidence. However, being at one point a student of science myself, I understand the position that they're in - and in my circumstances the only physicians I would rate negatively were the ones (one) who said things such as "I'm not interested in your medical history, I've got a lot of people to see today, I just want to know symptoms." One physician I saw told me straight out - "I don't know what's wrong with you. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with people that medical science doesn't understand: you might get worse, you might eventually get better, you might stay the same the rest of your life, but I could help 20 people who have things wrong that I DO understand in the time that it would take to work on you and think up some treatment that may or may not have any effect." The latter would not get a negative review from me.

      Television shows like House, M.D. always make me chuckle, having been too close to the subject matter for suspension of disbelief to work. When something serious goes wrong with one's body that cannot be diagnosed with first-line test results and (revenue-generating) treatment prescribed in 8.5 minutes, you are no longer an asset to the healthcare industry. You are a liability. There is no genius physician who will ponder over your case in his or her downtime. There are no attractive residents who will hold conferences in well-appointed conference rooms where they will discuss your case and argue over the possible diagnoses on whiteboards and through video teleconferencing. If you have something go terribly wrong with your body, hope that it's a chronic condition, because otherwise you'll die admiring the 1970s airport style furniture in the emergency room waiting area as the 2 physicians on staff at 3 AM chat up the nurses.

    49. Re:non-issue by HiThere · · Score: 1

      7. Because when you show up in pain so bad you want to scream with every step, you aren't in any position to bargain.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    50. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      It's quite simple. You don't have an absolute right to a job with that employer. You do have a right to live.

    51. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      I should by the inherent right of our freedoms be able to post my opinion about it.

      Yes, and your doctor should by the inherent right of our freedoms be able to refrain from treating you.

    52. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see why you post at zero!

    53. Re:non-issue by ORBAT · · Score: 2, Funny

      So he reached forward with one hand, and used the other to steady himself while he was doing the prostrate exam? Since both arms are occupied that must mean that he was doing the prostate exam with... waaaitaminute.

    54. Re:non-issue by ORBAT · · Score: 1

      Actually that's why you never marry models. That way you don't have the pressure to switch to a newer model when the old one goes out of style.

      Badum-tshh. Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all night.

    55. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The second, the very second you say 'NO' regardless of how many times you said yes, wrote yes, signed yes or even nodded your head, the 'NO' takes force. So you change your mind and whoa, miracle or miracles your full rights are back, as if they never left you, which in reality is the truth.

      Actually, that's not always true. In fact, with regards to 5th amendment rights, it is exactly the reverse. You can take the fifth from the start, say nothing and continue to take the 5th, but as SOON as you say something incriminating you have waved your 5th amendment rights to that information and can not ever again claim them.

      /The more you know!
      //Never, ever, ever talk to cops without a lawyer.

    56. Re:non-issue by tapanitarvainen · · Score: 1

      doctors that are nice, and doctors that are skilled, are weakly correlated.

      Are you Gregory House?

    57. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of eye exam, received double leg amputation. Wouldn't go again. A--

    58. Re:non-issue by wisty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Replace "doctor" with "lawyer", "manager", "programmer" or "recruiter", and it still makes sense.

      People skills are important, but seeming "nice" is not the only people skill that matters. There are plenty of people who are honest, but a bit rude (all good surgeons, for starters), but it doesn't mean patients would like them.

    59. Re:non-issue by wisty · · Score: 1

      +5, sad but true.

    60. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think at all that it's doomed to fail. You may need to look again at who's promoting the idea and how. They specifically claim that negative reviews are posted by spurned lovers and other unreliable sources...if you force people to post anonymously you're also forcing them to remove their basic credibility (their name) and making it easier for doctors to ignore/discount the negative comments.

    61. Re:non-issue by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 1

      Nobody talks to me on the phone like that, customer, user, or employer. If they want a reasonable, well considered discussion on any topic, that's fine. Swear at me and I'm hanging up.

      If they want to fire me for that, I really don't want to work for them.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    62. Re:non-issue by reddburn · · Score: 1

      First - the constitution prevents only the government from banning free speech. It doesn't prevent you from signing away your right.

      BUT - these agreements aren't enforceable because the implied threat of withheld medical treatment means that the patient is signing under duress.

      The difference between this form and those you sign agreeing to pay is important: this form requires you to "pay" (with the promise of silence) in order to be treated while the latter is a promise by you that you will pay after services are rendered.

      --
      "Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand" - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
    63. Re:non-issue by DarkAce911 · · Score: 1

      Not really, this is one of those one-sided contracts that get throw out all the time. There is no consideration for the signing party and that makes it invalid. Plus, in most states there is already a bunch of case law on the books covering a doctor patient relationship. This is an EULA, they aren't valid for software, why would someone think they would work in the physical world.

    64. Re:non-issue by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      It might not be all that easy to sue a doctor.

      Which explains why malpractice insurance is so cheap. Wait a minute......

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    65. Re:non-issue by Heather+D · · Score: 1

      Freedom of speech includes the right to waive that freedom in particular cases. NDA's for example.

      This is not censorship or a ban on free speech.

      This is a questionable practice, it's doomed to fail because anonymity makes it unenforceable, it's counter productive, it's idiotic, but it is not a violation of freedom of speech.

      Indeed. To anyone who is naive enough to wonder why privacy and anonymity matter on the net and elsewhere here it is. They give us a valuable tool to deal with what amount to guerilla attacks upon fundamental rights.

      Defense in depth. Because sometimes you cannot count upon people to be honest.

    66. Re:non-issue by queequeg1 · · Score: 1

      Or just sign it and do whatever you want. Unless the agreement has some stated amount of damages (e.g. a liquidated damages provision), I'm not sure what the consequences of breach would be. How on earth could any direct damages be shown? The doctor would have to present a putative patient to the court who testifies that he or she would have obtained the doc's services but for the bad review. Good luck on that one. Injunctive relief? I'm not sure how that will actually play out since the bad reviews are not hosted by the patients but by a third party. I suppose a defamation claim could be brought. However, that is a claim based on tort and no contract is needed to support it (just libelous statements).

    67. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First one in a while not to diagnose me as cancerous! This one's earned my lifelong fidelity.

    68. Re:non-issue by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      Yeah, pretty much. You got a problem with that?

      Good, cause I really don't care if you do or not. I shouldn't have been put in that situation in the first place.

      I only hope someday you get knocked off your high horse there and the fall hurts.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    69. Re:non-issue by GregNorc · · Score: 1

      You can't ban free speech, this is true.

      But you can sign away your rights in a contract... this is what most contracts are at their core. For example, when I sign a lease on an apartment, I sign away my right to the amount of money the monthly rent is. Without signing that contract, the landowner could not have taken my money.

      Likewise, you can sign away your free speech rights... ever heard of a non disclosure agreement?

    70. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for stating the obvious.
      I can't image how we could life without you.

    71. Re:non-issue by Orange+Crush · · Score: 1

      It still comes with the territory. And while skill is the actual most important trait to want in a Doctor, bedside manner and plain old customer service is critically important as well. And it's not just the experience with the doctor that influences whether a patient is happy with the care they're receiving. People seldom go to doctor's whe they're feeling great, so they're already in a bad mood. Appointment process, waiting room, nurses, INSURANCE & BILLING all play big factors.

      Besides, any Doctor that even attempts to prohibit his or her patients from reviewing him/her sounds shady on principle and I wouldn't trust my health care to them.

    72. Re:non-issue by redxxx · · Score: 1

      I'm not from the US, the thing that grabbed my attention in TFS was "the pile of contracts your doctor dumps on your lap". Why is there a pile of contracts in the first place?

      Because privatized systems are more efficient than their government provided counterparts.

    73. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      So if Obama starts telling people "You have to fire everybody who's not a registered Democrat, or I won't give you any stimulus money" that's OK?

    74. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, no. privatized medical system are much better because the higher pay attract the better doctors.

    75. Re:non-issue by jimbolauski · · Score: 0, Troll

      I think I've found a flaw in your medical system. In Canada, doctors give us medicine.

      But first you have to wait a month to see your doctor to get medicine.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    76. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, some of them do give us contracts to heal us.
      just like the gov't (our US) gives people who fly in private jets huge bailouts and a pat on the head

    77. Re:non-issue by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

      So unless your doctor has been elected to congress he can write what ever he wants into his contracts.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    78. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Television shows like House, M.D. always make me chuckle, having been too close to the subject matter for suspension of disbelief to work."

      Which is why it makes for a compelling drama. It's fantasy land to most people, which is why the protagonist, for all his flaws, is admired and pitied.

      I would disagree a bit with you though--there are doctor teams who will push to find out what's going on. Usually, it's because you can pay i.e. rich, or on Medicare for the first time, have a bunch of residents following to pursue the case and waste their time (hospitals pay for residents for cheap labor and to assure Medi* patients which are highly profitable).

    79. Re:non-issue by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      > As a doctor, I would just add that doctors that are nice, and doctors that
      > are skilled, are weakly correlated.

      Utterly, unbelievably sickening, but true.

      The statistics as to whether a doctor will get sued highly correlate with his "bedside manner", and very little with his actual competency or the disasters he causes.

      In other words, House would be the most sued doctor on the planet, even though he saves just about everybody.

      And that ain't right, of course. But this world wasn't built by critical thinking, but by greed and lawsuits and so on.

      Got a problem with that? Don't talk to me, talk to your Congressman.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    80. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Canadian here reading all this and going "Hmmh, well there's reason #3652 that it sucks to be American." If a doctor tried to hand me a contract, I wouldn't even touch the paper. I'd touch my phone in a way that I would in minutes be speaking to a Health ministry official in Ontario about a doctor trying to blackmail people.

    81. Re:non-issue by idontgno · · Score: 1

      If however the Government decides that you should be prevented for reviewing, then the Government is banning free speech.

      And that's the simplest reading of that. But what happens if, in the course of a contractual relationship between non-government entities, one participant violates a contractual gag clause? The other participant's recourse is... court. And if the court finds for plaintiff? A judgment, executed on the respondent. Enforced... by state coercion. So a lawsuit extends government force into the contractual relationship. And government's participation makes it government censorship.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    82. Re:non-issue by evilpenguin · · Score: 1

      Bullpellets. The First Amendment constrains ONLY THE GOVERNMENT. There is no "free speech right" in private places. A property owner may silence or remove anyone from his/her property for any reason, including not liking what you have to say. This is so fundamental and yet I am amazed how often people think private parties are constrained by the constitution! They ARE NOT.

      That Bill of Rights thing limits only the government. You have no Constitutional Right to free speech at work, or within the bounds of a private contract.

      NONE. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Bupkis.

    83. Re:non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Saying stuff like this makes YOU sound stupid. There is definately skills different between surgenos. Some have told me that they would have them operate on their mother but not care for after, they are that good technically but asses.

      Argue over stupid definitions is stupid but especially with surgeons some have really good skills but are not nice, this is from other surgeons that know. Saying stuff with caps in a crazy way about everybody should be nice lala makes you crazy, I will go with the good surgeon most are rich jerks anyway but then keep my nice main doc.

    84. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      How in the world would that be OK?

    85. Re:non-issue by lukesl · · Score: 1

      As a physician, I agree with you that learning good people skills is a critical skill for most physicians. However, I think the whole situation is more complicated than you seem to acknowledge. First, there can be technically incompetent physicians who miss diagnoses or prescribe outdated treatments, but they're loved by their patients. On the other hand, I know a few technically excellent surgeons who are total jerks. So I agree with you that people skills and clinical skills are not totally separate and distinct, but they're not totally inseparable either. However, technical incompetence is a more serious problem than poor people skills. I agree, a doctor with poor people skills will never be truly excellent. But a technically incompetent doctor kills people.

      A second, more subtle, issue is that sometimes being a good doctor requires you to do things that will make your patient unhappy. For example, a good primary care physician will bug his/her patients to quit smoking and lose weight. Those are things that annoy people, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that sometimes it's easier to make the patient happy than it is to do the right thing and come off looking like a bad guy. For example, people come in all the time demanding antibiotics for viral upper respiratory infections. Giving those patients antibiotics is doing them a disservice, as it breeds resistant organisms, but doctors that do it will be more popular, and primary care physicians do it all the time for that reason. Another example is building false hope in patients with a poor prognosis. As far as I'm concerned, that sort of pandering is cowardice pure and simple, but physicians are human too, and it's hard to be the bad guy.

      Finally, posting random stuff on a web site is just not a reliable way to evaluate anyone. Mostly you'll just get a few posts from a tiny, disgruntled fraction of the patients a doctor sees. And in most of those cases, the complaint says more about the patient than the doctor. In fact, having more complaints most likely reflects the fact that the doctor is willing to accept more difficult patients, the same way that many surgeons with low success rates are the ones willing to accept the toughest cases. I agree that it's silly to try to make patients sign agreements that they won't post online, but it's even more silly to take online posts seriously.

    86. Re:non-issue by lukesl · · Score: 1

      Television shows like House, M.D. always make me chuckle, having been too close to the subject matter for suspension of disbelief to work. When something serious goes wrong with one's body that cannot be diagnosed with first-line test results and (revenue-generating) treatment prescribed in 8.5 minutes, you are no longer an asset to the healthcare industry. You are a liability. There is no genius physician who will ponder over your case in his or her downtime. There are no attractive residents who will hold conferences in well-appointed conference rooms where they will discuss your case and argue over the possible diagnoses on whiteboards and through video teleconferencing.

      I'm sorry that your experience with medical care has left you so jaded, but the truth is that this sort of thing happens a lot more than you know, especially at academic hospitals. Most people who go into medicine are interested in the mystery cases, and if anything, I feel like the truth is the very opposite of what you're saying: people with simple presentations that look like routine cases often aren't given enough attention, and the mystery cases are ruminated over far beyond the point where anything productive results from it. The thing about House, MD that makes me chuckle is how bad the physicians on the show are. I guess that's part of the plot, though, that they can't make the diagnosis in the beginning, or else there wouldn't be a show.

    87. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      I didn't say it was. You did.

    88. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      No I didn't. You're the first one who mentioned the idea. Why?

    89. Re:non-issue by syousef · · Score: 1

      Replace "doctor" with "lawyer", "manager", "programmer" or "recruiter", and it still makes sense.

      People skills are important, but seeming "nice" is not the only people skill that matters. There are plenty of people who are honest, but a bit rude (all good surgeons, for starters), but it doesn't mean patients would like them.

      If you seem like an ass, you're not going to get all the relevant information to base your decisions from because people don't open up to assholes. It's that simple. It doesn't matter how good you are technically, if you're basing your information on partial data.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    90. Re:non-issue by syousef · · Score: 1

      First, there can be technically incompetent physicians who miss diagnoses or prescribe outdated treatments, but they're loved by their patients.

      Good people skills are necessary but not sufficient. You also have to have the technical skill, but neither replaces the other.

      A second, more subtle, issue is that sometimes being a good doctor requires you to do things that will make your patient unhappy. For example, a good primary care physician will bug his/her patients to quit smoking and lose weight. Those are things that annoy people, and I can tell you from first-hand experience that sometimes it's easier to make the patient happy than it is to do the right thing and come off looking like a bad guy.

      Be honest. When's the last time you were able to force a patient to make a life style choice like quitting smoking or losing weight by nagging them? Also are patients that dislike and mistrust you more likely to follow such advice or less likely?

      Being nice does not mean always telling people what they want to hear. It means doing it with respect and sensitivity. You must understand this. You've probably had to tell people they're dying, haven't you? Getting back to the weight loss example, you can say "lose weight you fat bastard or you'll have a heart attack" or you can show the patient the stats, not talk down to them and let them make a decision knowing full well what the long term weight loss stats are like and how hard that actually is to do.

      For example, people come in all the time demanding antibiotics for viral upper respiratory infections. Giving those patients antibiotics is doing them a disservice, as it breeds resistant organisms

      So you don't prescribe them, and you explain exactly why. Then you offer the patient what support you can by telling them what else they can do and how long their illness is likely to last. It's a trust issue. The reason patients demand antibiotics is that they don't believe their doctors when their doctors say they won't work. All the more reason to be "nice". People don't trust other people they think are assholes.

      As far as I'm concerned, that sort of pandering is cowardice pure and simple, but physicians are human too, and it's hard to be the bad guy.

      You don't need to be the bad guy. You can be very nice about telling them that you believe this will harm them and others and do them no good and that you can't in good conscience prescribe the meds.

      Finally, posting random stuff on a web site is just not a reliable way to evaluate anyone. Mostly you'll just get a few posts from a tiny, disgruntled fraction of the patients a doctor sees.

      The way the medical profession works I promise you it's not just a tiny fraction of patients that are disgruntled. You're seeing evidence of this in the fact they don't rrust you enough to believe that your refusal to prescribe meds is in their best interest.

      And in most of those cases, the complaint says more about the patient than the doctor.

      That's simply not true. The amount of medical incompetence I've witnessed first hand is astounding. An irritible bowel patient given a diet plan, when they're obstructed and haven't eaten for 2 days. A pregnant asthmatic woman who had been hit by a car diagnosed as "breathing wrong" and being a head case when then being told to excercise all while she's hospitalized hacking up litres of flem every day (a simple case of maternal asthma for fuck sake). Repeated misdiagnoses of shoulder dislocations because the medical profession is all geared up to scan for anterior dislocations when this is posterior (the shoulder was actually left dislocated for 6 months in the first instance which completely ruined it. It took 4 reconstructions to regain some stability). 2 GPs and 1 specialist prescribing then continually increasing the dosage on a medication prescribed for seizures when seizures were a contraindication. By the time I (without any medical training) picked this one up the patient was having a seiz

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    91. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      No I didn't.

      "You don't have an absolute right to a job with that employer."

    92. Re:non-issue by What+is+WOW · · Score: 0

      That's right, and you know that before you take the job. Not taking the job makes you sound like a person that will stand up for his convictions. After you take the job (and the paycheck) it just makes you sound like the weasel you are. I post at zero becuause most of the younger generation have a very loose concept of duty and honor (or right and wrong if you prefer.)

    93. Re:non-issue by What+is+WOW · · Score: 0

      Nobody put you in any position. You accepted the position offered to you based on a promise of compensation. "They" did their part and you did not do your part. Your rationaliztion is meaningless.

      When some drunk comes into the ED swearing and spitting after wrapping his car around a tree, I don't choose to do a piss poor job and blame it on the hospital for hiring me and then presenting unpleasant patients to me. I could do that but then what would that make me as a man. I might say something under my breath and to myself about my career choice, but I most certainly would not blame anyone else for the unpleasent turn of my evening.

      Grow up for God's sake. Maybe you need a to find a high horse so that you will grow a spine and take a stand for what you think is right.

    94. Re:non-issue by What+is+WOW · · Score: 0

      "yeah I hung up on him because he was swearing...
          Oh yeah, no you don't, because I quit!"

      -OR-

      "...and then I lied to my boss and didn't even get punished. But it's ok cause I quit my job later."

      Of course it's a tough choice. But when you choose the dishonorable (as we all do at times) show enough self respect to keep it to yourself.

    95. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1
      Now you're changing the subject. We were talking about your idea that it would be OK if Obama forced employers to fire their employees.

      But I suppose you quoted me because you do not understand the quoted text, so think of it this way: Your employer does not have an absolute right to your labor. His right to your labor depends on your willingness to work for him. If he forces you to work beyond the terms of any contract between you and against your will, that is slavery. Likewise, you do not have an absolute right to a job with that employer. Your right to that job depends on the employer's willingness to hire you and allow you to keep the position. If you use the resources of the employer and continue to "work" for him and take "payment" beyond the terms of any contract between you and against his will, you are guilty of trespass and theft.

      From the perspective of a third party, such as a government, both rights are absolute. If you and an employer and in mutual agreement that you shall work for him, there is no one else who has the right to interfere with that relationship.

    96. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Boy are you dense. Do you know what the words "implication" and "irony" mean? Guess not.

      Let me spell it out for you. I was not arguing that the President has the right to fire private employees. I was trying to demonstrate that if we accept your "logic" (people don't have a right to a job, therefore it's not a violation of your rights to have you fired) then by implication,there's nothing wrong with the government enforcing its views by depriving people of their jobs.

      But that's a stupid idea. Of course the government should not be allowed to suppress dissent that way. I wasn't arguing that absurdity. I was demonstrating that your argument implies that absurdity.

    97. Re:non-issue by aztektum · · Score: 1

      I prefer people that are honest even if it means they be blunt in their words. One of my favorite quotes evar!...

      "The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it." - George Bernard Shaw

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    98. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      You are arguing that a company terminating an arrangement it has with another party and a third party (the government) forcibly ending an arrangement between two other parties are equivalent. That is absurdity.

    99. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      So, if an employer decides that no Libertarians can work for him, that's OK, but if be refuses to do business with anybody who employs Libertarians, that's wrong?

    100. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      That's your new bright idea? If you actually believe that idea is somehow connected to the rest of this conversation, do explain. Remember, the subject is government forcing companies not to employ certain groups of people; versus private companies voluntarily ending business arrangements. How do you get to "if be [sic] refuses to do business with anybody who employs Libertarians, that's wrong" from that?

    101. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      (Thinks of several insults and bites tongue.)

      When I ask you these questions, I'm trying to get you to see the implications of your own opinions. But you don't seem to know how to answer questions. You interpret every question as a proposal.

      I give up.

    102. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      No, you are assuming implications which do not exist. Therefore, I did not expect you to be able to logically explain them.

    103. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      You write whole paragraphs refuting stuff I didn't say, and you accuse me of making assumptions?

      Bored now.

    104. Re:non-issue by plnix0 · · Score: 1

      My paragraphs were refuting the assumptions you actually made. You've spent quite a few posts proving and re-proving that you have nothing meaningful to say and no ability to back up your earlier statements. I don't expect any type of meaningful reply, of course, but I would suggest you put some thought to your assumptions.

    105. Re:non-issue by fm6 · · Score: 1

      My paragraphs were refuting the assumptions you actually made.

      Right, you know my assumptions better than me.

    106. Re:non-issue by Arthur+B. · · Score: 1

      No, we have labor law because bad people held the political gun to the head of employers.

      Not employing someone is not "taking advantage of him". Doctors and employers are not your slaves.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
    107. Re:non-issue by Arthur+B. · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you might as well call sex "rape", both involve penetration. Consent is critical.

      --
      \u262D = \u5350
  2. First Amendment by Jon_Hanson · · Score: 4, Informative

    The First Amendment doesn't cover speech between two private parties. It covers speech that the government may not oppress. Please stop claiming First Amendment rights when the government is not involved.

    1. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ain't so simple as you make it. Courts have also ruled that free speech may not be banned by contract where there is a significant public policy interest in preventing this from occurring.

      Whether this would be included would likely be decided in court, and indubitably appealed to the first court of record in the jurisdiction where the case was brought.

    2. Re:First Amendment by X_Bones · · Score: 0

      thank you.

    3. Re:First Amendment by Chris+Burke · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Please stop claiming First Amendment rights when the government is not involved.

      No, and I'm not going to stop until the government passes a law saying I can't. :P

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whoever is agreed upon for a dispute resolution ( arbitration) not public courts. Taken to logical extremes, the voter sanctioned thin blue gang might get involved - but the first avenue of recourse is through arbitration.

    5. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Courts enforce contracts, not the government.

      The courts are one of the three arms of government , you imbecile. (N.B. That wasn't flamebait, it was a flame, plus he deserved it.)

    6. Re:First Amendment by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      Courts enforce contracts, not the government.

      I think that you've been watching too much Judge Judy.

    7. Re:First Amendment by interiot · · Score: 1

      So NDAs and other trade secrets are unenforceable all of a sudden?

      No. It doesn't matter who does the enforcing, it matters who the enforcing is being done on behalf of.

      That's like saying "it's wrong for Citizen A to jail Citizen B in their home, so it's also wrong for the state to jail Citizen B for committing a crime against Citizen A". The state and the defendant are totally different parties, you can't do transitive math on them.

    8. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The First Amendment doesn't cover speech between two private parties. It covers speech that the government may not oppress. Please stop claiming First Amendment rights when the government is not involved.

      The government limits who you may pay for medical services. It limits what those medical services are as well. These are not two private parties. This one extremely regulated party taking advantage of the party with extremely limited rights to unfair and ludicrous advantage.

    9. Re:First Amendment by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 1

      Please stop claiming First Amendment rights when the government is not involved.

      Hey! I'm allowed to mischaracterize the First Amendment if I want to! It's a free country! Stop trying to take my rights away!

    10. Re:First Amendment by Jon_Hanson · · Score: 1

      Independent arm of the government that interpret and enforce the laws. I'm not sure why this was brought up in the first place because I'm pretty sure the government is not included in a contract between the patient and his or her doctor.

    11. Re:First Amendment by Normal_Deviate · · Score: 1

      What he said. In a world of villains and idiots, mischaracterizing constitutional liberties is not harmless.

    12. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      No contract would be worth the paper it's printed on if not for the government. If a party breaches a contract and then continually ignores orders to compensate for damages, it is ultimately armed government agents that will compel the party to comply under threat of force.

      All contracts involve the government.

    13. Re:First Amendment by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      The US is actually one of the few democratic countries which does not guarantee it's citizens freedom of expression. Most others have ratified the universal declaration of human rights and thus give their citizens the protection of article 19 of the declaration. (See http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html)

    14. Re:First Amendment by icannotthinkofaname · · Score: 1

      Courts enforce contracts, not the government.

      The courts are one of the three arms of government , you insensitive clod. (N.B. That wasn't flamebait, it was a flame, plus he deserved it.)

      Fixed that for you.

      --
      Let q be a radix > 1. I am in ur base-q, killing 10 d00ds.
    15. Re:First Amendment by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Uh, our OWN constitution guarantees freedom of expression. Who cares what the UN says?

    16. Re:First Amendment by Mazcote+Yarquest · · Score: 1


      Some of us probably won't even then...

      I am just too darn proud of being an American!

    17. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The courts are one of the three arms of government , you imbecile.

      The first amendment begins with the words "Congress shall make no law . . ."

      The courts are not Congress. Imbecile. ;)

    18. Re:First Amendment by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      (N.B. That wasn't flamebait, it was a flame, plus he deserved it.)

      I sincerely believe that less than 3% of moderators can understand the difference between flamebaiting and flaming.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    19. Re:First Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The First Amendment doesn't cover speech between two private parties. It covers speech that the government may not oppress.

      I think that it does. If I am talking to a stranger in a public park and I say something that they do not like. They can try to take me to court but as long as their was no defamation in what I said the court will uphold my right to speak. Ergo, the 1st amendment protects my right to free speech even between two private parties.

      Property rights are another matter. If I am standing on your lawn talking to you then you have the right to make me leave if I say something you do not like. This is not a limit on my free speech it is an enforcement of your property rights. They had a little problem with this at Berkly back in the 60's when they didn't like what students where saying about the war while on University property and they asked them to move to the public street to do it. This was covered as a free speech issue but was probably more of a property right issue.

      An employer can not throw you in jail for violating their dress code or other codes of conduct that limit your right to free expression but they can certainly fire you. Come to think of it many jobs make you surrender your right to the pursuit of happiness as soon as you get there ;)

    20. Re:First Amendment by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      No it doesn't. As the GP pointed out, it only prevents Congress from making laws against it, that's all. It puts the US in the relatively unique situation that people can trade their human rights for money, in many other countries that would be against the law. I didn't want to argue the merits of each approach, just thought it was interesting that it's so different. Another curiosity is that the actual text of the UN declaration - which the US didn't ratify - is mainly made in USA.

    21. Re:First Amendment by xouumalperxe · · Score: 1

      I think that it does. If I am talking to a stranger in a public park and I say something that they do not like. They can try to take me to court but as long as their was no defamation in what I said the court will uphold my right to speak. Ergo, the 1st amendment protects my right to free speech even between two private parties.

      Wrong conclusion. The right conclusion is that there is no law in place that makes illegal to say whatever it is you said. Whether or not that law doesn't exist because it would be covered by the first amendment, or because it simply makes no sense. For example, if I show up at a party wearing really ugly clothes, you might take me to court over it, but you'll be laughed out of court not because I have a constitutional right to ugly clothes, but because that's simply something that makes no sense legislating about.

    22. Re:First Amendment by DarkAce911 · · Score: 1

      Some of them are, the ones that go over the line and say you can never talk about anything about a product ever. There are limits to contracts, such as EULA's and non-compete agreements. This is not normal or customary, so it would get thrown out.

    23. Re:First Amendment by interiot · · Score: 1

      Right, I agree with the broader perspective. I was just responding to the one assertion that "citizens can violate the 1st Amend, government can't violate the 1st Amend, but it's government that enforces on behalf of citizens, so effectively citizens can never violate the 1st Amendment". That proposed interpretation of the law, regardless of the broader context, is always wrong.

    24. Re:First Amendment by GregNorc · · Score: 1

      "Significant public policy interest in preventing this from occurring."

      This is generally accepted to be something along the lines of "I suspect my dentist sexually assaulted me while I was knocked out and have alerted the authorities" not "MEAN DOCOTOR WOULDN'T GIVE ME ANTIBIOTICS FOR A VIRAL INFECTION WORST SERVICE EVER".

    25. Re:First Amendment by Zcar · · Score: 1

      Actually, through incorporation with the 14th, it pretty much bans any government, Federal or State or local, restrictions on freedom of expression, unlike these others that may have ratified the universal declaration but have criminalized certain speech (Holocaust denial and Nazi symbols, for example).

      Not exactly upholding freedom of expression there, huh? Freedom of expression is most important for unpopular and objectionable views, like those above, not mainstream discourse.

    26. Re:First Amendment by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Almost everything the UN does is "made in the USA" since it's located in New York. :)

      But the reason the US doesn't sign documents like that isn't necessarily because we don't agree with the freedom of expression section, it's because there's also tons of other sections that contain things we may or may not agree with. We're in a unique position where:
      1) We're already following the *spirit* of the declaration, if not the exact text. It's not like we're Iran or China, which actively suppress freedom of expression. Therefore, it's a low priority even if we do agree with all of it.
      2) We're big enough that nobody else is going to force us into signing something we don't necessarily agree entirely with.

  3. Signatures not required by dave562 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm not sure about the laws in other states, but here in California I refuse to sign a lot of the paperwork all of the time. I always refuse to sign the waiver that asks me to give up my rights to sue over medical malpractice.

    I think that as Americans we get conditioned to sign everything and rarely think about not doing it. Every time I refuse, I get weird looks, but I've never once been denied service.

    1. Re:Signatures not required by davinc · · Score: 1

      I think that as Americans we get conditioned to sign everything and rarely think about not doing it. Every time I refuse, I get weird looks, but I've never once been denied service.

      Last year I wouldn't give a dentist my SS# prior to a cleaning, and was denied service. One of the most absurd thing I have seen in ages. They wanted my SS number more than they wanted my $100 I guess.

    2. Re:Signatures not required by SoundGuyNoise · · Score: 4, Informative

      IANAL....No matter how many forms you sign, you are legally protected from ever waiving your right to sue. Putting in a "no sue" clause is merely a formality that you recognize the seriousness of what you are about to do.

      I have a company where my participants have to sign a release form. It's really more for our liability insurance. I'll even tell them they can't sign away the right to sue.

      --
      You never expect irony, do you?
      Want to be a professional wrestler? Visit www.iyfwrestling.com
      @iyfwrestling
    3. Re:Signatures not required by ushering05401 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You can actually take this advice pretty far, but you may need to fight to get services of certain sorts.

      In a tough economy the candidates that return employment contracts with paragraphs lined through are setting themselves up for a fall.

      I witnessed the pain of a contract non conformist first hand while working with a fellow - we can call him 'Mr. New Hampshire.'

      Mr. New Hampshire refused to use his Social Security number for anything. Combine this with the fact that SS nums are the most overused weak authentication scheme ever devised, and many contracts 'require' an SS num... you can imagine the problems that ensued. Every single service this guy wanted including insurances of all sorts, I-9 employment eligibility verifications etc had to get routed through drawn out legal processes. In the end he would always get his way, but only three or four months after everyone else.

    4. Re:Signatures not required by B4D+BE4T · · Score: 1

      Man, do I feel stupid now.

      I recently had to see a doctor and was given this two-page contract that I assumed had to be signed before I could see him. It included both the ban on patient reviews and the section that you mentioned (stating that you agree to waive your right to a trial by jury). I sat there for a couple of minutes staring at the thing trying to decide whether I really wanted to sign it. I thought about asking whether I had to sign it in order to see the doctor, but I was pretty sick at the time and didn't want to put up with the hassle that could have followed. So, against my better judgment, I signed it.

      Now I wish that I had at least asked. But at the time, I probably would have been willing to sign away other rights as well for a cure. I wonder, is it fair to ask someone to sign that kind of contract under those conditions?

    5. Re:Signatures not required by dave562 · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but a good one might be able to convince a jury that you signed under duress.

    6. Re:Signatures not required by agrippa_cash · · Score: 1

      IANAL either, but . . . You can waive your right to sue by contracting to have any dispute settled by binding arbitration. Even then you can sue, but you have to argue that the contract or arbitration should not be acknowledged by the court before you can sue for them amputating the wrong leg. I suspect that most state medical boards have some ethical prohibition on conditioning care on the patients subsequent behavior (other than litigation and payment), if they don't they should.

    7. Re:Signatures not required by QuantumRiff · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IANAL....No matter how many forms you sign, you are legally protected from ever waiving your right to sue.

      No, that is not true. Mandatory Binding Arbitration has held up in court many, many times. You are giving up your right to a traditional court, and being forced to follow the rules and decisions of the arbitrator, who the company that makes you sign the contract gets to pick. (guess who they side with more than 90% of the time!).

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    8. Re:Signatures not required by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      IANAL either, but a contract shouldn't be thrown out as "under duress" unless the duress in question was initiated by the other party. The GP's situation was not the doctor's fault, and the doctor has every right to place binding conditions on any services rendered.

      Whether a doctor should place such conditions on medical aid--considering the Hippocratic Oath and all that--is another matter entirely.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    9. Re:Signatures not required by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but do you know anyone who sued after signing a contract that stipulated arbitration would be used to resolve any disputes?

      I do. The lawsuit was thrown out because they'd signed a contract agreeing to arbitration to resolve any disputes.

    10. Re:Signatures not required by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Informative

      You're kidding, right? Mandatory binding arbitration clauses are struck down frequently. If both parties have comparable negotiating power, they are generally upheld, but that's the exception, not the rule, from what I've seen. The 9th circuit has been striking them down left and right. Even in the 6th circuit, for disagreements not stemming out of the terms of the contract itself, such clauses have been thrown out recently.

      I'm not saying you can blow your nose on the binding arbitration clause, but it is a lot closer to the way a waiver of liability doesn't necessarily protect against claims of gross negligence, but rather tries to convince the injured party that they don't have a case so that they don't contact a lawyer in the first place. In other words, it's mostly a smoke screen more often than not, at least in the 9th Circuit. Your circuit may vary.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:Signatures not required by Eil · · Score: 5, Informative

      IANAL....No matter how many forms you sign, you are legally protected from ever waiving your right to sue.

      Bzzt. You can effectively sign away your right to sue and many people do, routinely, without realizing it. (The most common are cell phone, cable, and other service contracts.) The culprit is called a mandatory binding arbitration clause and when you try to sue the company, the court will require you submit to arbitration since that's what you and the other party agreed upon when you signed the contract.

      Now, arbitration doesn't really sound all that bad, does it? It's just like court only less expensive and with fewer gavels, right? Well, yes. For the company you're in a dispute with. The average person would still need a lawyer to properly interpret the terms of the contract (let alone contract law itself). Oh and by the way, the company gets to pick the arbitration firm. And they get to decide where the arbitration is held. And if by some chance you can make it the arbitration location with lawyer in tow and make a convincing case, you still only have about a 5% chance of the arbitration firm ruling in your favor.

      Okay, so appeal the arbiter's decision in court, right? Nice try, but unless you somehow got permission to record the arbitration proceedings (unlikely, since companies try to keep arbitrations strictly non-public), you've got no evidence to make a case with. And in any event, courts have historically said, "sorry buddy, you agreed to an arbitration in the contract so now you're stuck with it."

      Arbitration clauses are another thing that need to be outlawed, IMO.

    12. Re:Signatures not required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I have been denied medical service many times in California for refusing to sign a waiver of my constitutional rights. One office manager threatened to call their security to escort me from their premises if I did not leave.

      I now call the doctor's office before I show up to determine if signing a waiver is necessary for treatment.

      These were all Blue Cross PPO doctors and clinics. I could provide a list of the doctors and clinics that refused to treat me, should anyone be interested.

    13. Re:Signatures not required by Walkingshark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You can always split the difference by crossing out the part where they get to pick the guy and writing in that YOu get to pick it, then signing that part and making sure you keep a carbon of the document with the modifications on it. Then enjoy the look of surprise on their face when they find out your mom is arbitrating the malpractice claim.

      --
      The world you experience is only a close approximation of reality.
    14. Re:Signatures not required by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think that the large health care company that is funneling millions of dollars of work to a *specific arbitration company* (at least, it is that way with Kaiser) is not going to get equal justice in such a setup. Or, rather, Kaiser will get justice, and patients will get nothing. I got to watch all that when my father tried to sue them after they nearly killed him (they injected him with radioactive iodine, which he turned out to be hideously allergic to, and then left him alone for three hours as he was weakly pushing the nurse call button over and over - my mother ended up sneaking in to see what was wrong with him since she thought she heard he was calling for help... and was right). The arbitration company that Kaiser funnels said millions of dollars to a year issues a blanket ruling absolving Kaiser of any wrongdoing in the matter. My dad then sued the arbitration company for a conflict of interest, and lost in a real court.

      Good times, good times.

    15. Re:Signatures not required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Refusing to sit at the back of the bus isn't always a bad thing.

    16. Re:Signatures not required by timmarhy · · Score: 1

      don't many states have good samaritian laws, where standing by and allowing someone to suffer when helping them would cause no injury to you lands you in jail?

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    17. Re:Signatures not required by pete6677 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, nobody ever said that freedom is free of cost.

    18. Re:Signatures not required by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      There has to be some truth to this. Otherwise why would doctors spend so much money on malpractice insurance? Wouldn't it be so much cheaper and easier to just make the patient sign a form giving up the right to sue? Same with skydiving or bunge jumping operators: why do they have to carry all that liability insurance if they can get someone to sign a form saying they won't sue? The obvious answer is that people can still sue, even if they supposedly signed away that right. Sure, signing the form can diminish that right, but certainly can't eliminate it in all cases.

      For one thing, if the person signing the form is killed in an accident, relatives can sue the responsible party for wrongful death. After all, the relative never signed a form saying they wouldn't sue. You can't sign away someone else's right to sue no matter what the waiver form says.

    19. Re:Signatures not required by Ottair · · Score: 1

      If you are going to cite valid legal precedent, please use real life examples and not the 9th Circuit please.

    20. Re:Signatures not required by scharkalvin · · Score: 1

      Last year I wouldn't give a dentist my SS# prior to a cleaning, and was denied service. One of the most absurd thing I have seen in ages. They wanted my SS number more than they wanted my $100 I guess.

      That is illegal. The law states that your SS# may NOT be used as identification.

    21. Re:Signatures not required by fotbr · · Score: 1

      No. "Good samaritan" laws are there to protect the people that are attempting to provide help from lawsuits, not to force people to help.

      Otherwise, Joe sees Billy get hit by a car, calls 911 and starts first aid. Billy ends up paralyzed or dead anyway, and Billy's family sues Joe, the EMTs, and the hospital. EMTs and the hospital have insurance, but Joe's out hanging in the wind, getting sued for trying to help.

      Morally, you might have an obligation to help, but most places you are not legally required to do anything.

    22. Re:Signatures not required by jgostling · · Score: 1

      So under your same argument, this sort of censoring would be useless, since I can sign it and my wife can badmouth the doctor later.

      BTW, I'm not trying to defend this type of nonsensical contracts.

    23. Re:Signatures not required by jgostling · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a good lawyer could get the papers thrown out on a count of you not being under full use of your mental faculties at the moment.

    24. Re:Signatures not required by NastyNate · · Score: 1

      Don't sign your rights away. If they attempt to refuse service, remind them of the oath they took in order to practice medicine. An oath they are bound to.

    25. Re:Signatures not required by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, but as boobaard above you said, its just like a EULA
      if I say NO on any EULA that ive come across, guess what? it uninstalls!
      ive always had my lawyer on the phone when i get any paperwork involving my rights, and I make it a habit to always read the fine print on everything. Ive caught a few people who go ahead and sign and then say afterwards, "HEY I NEVER agreed to that!"
      In one game of mine, they have in-game ads [Diablo 2: LOD]. When i read the EULA, it said they could do that. I managed to disable those ads using some ingenious coding of a friend of mine.

      I suggest that everyone be friendly with their lawyer and read the FINE PRINT!

    26. Re:Signatures not required by jabelli · · Score: 1

      Maybe, but it is when that's the only open seat left.

      SSN is for credit checks and taxation purposes. Nobody else should get it. Also, it should never be used as the ID/account number.

    27. Re:Signatures not required by Arterion · · Score: 1

      Or get your cat to do it!

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
  4. a word about contracts by pak9rabid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just because it's on paper and signed, doesn't mean it's enforcible in court.

    1. Re:a word about contracts by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

      Just because it's on paper and signed, doesn't mean it's necessarily enforcible in court.

      There, fixed that for me

    2. Re:a word about contracts by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just because it's on paper and signed, doesn't mean it's enforcible in court.

      Yes, but just because something isn't enforceable in court that doesn't mean it can't be used to bludgeon somebody into submission. Lawsuits are expensive. Theoretically justice is the same for everybody but in practice only the rich can afford a court case if it drags on for too long so de-facto the justice system mostly favours the rich.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
  5. First admendment does not preclude this,. by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Informative

    The First Amendment protects your rights versus Government, not in contracts with others.

    Get it right.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  6. According to my business law prof... by imemyself · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This was actually brought up my commercial law class this morning. Our professor's opinion was that it was probably legal if just a few doctors were doing it. But, if all doctors in an area were doing it and it was not possible to obtain medical care without agreeing to this, it's possible that courts may not recognize the contract, because it was a "contract of adhesion".

    --
    Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
    1. Re:According to my business law prof... by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      Doesn't that opinion bother you?

      Oh, not everyone is doing it, so it's okay.

      Not really a fan of that mentality. I understand where he/she's coming from, but still.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    2. Re:According to my business law prof... by CookieOfFortune · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because you can refuse and have the option to go to another doctor. If all the doctors were doing it, then you would have no where to go.

    3. Re:According to my business law prof... by forand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So you have to shop around for the doctor who will let you review them while you are bleeding out from a wound? This seems insane. I agree with your professors general thesis: that a business can put whatever limitations on its customers as long as such limitations are not on the face illegal nor so pervasive yet provide little to no benefit to the consumer that it is unfair to the consumer. However, in medicine this is not reasonable. It is not in societies best interests to make healthcare unaccessible unless you are willing to sign away rights even if you can pay for the service. If we are talking about general practitioner than maybe but it can never put the patient at increased risk to not sign.

    4. Re:According to my business law prof... by imemyself · · Score: 1

      Yeah, somewhat. Though, she was just saying what she thought the court's view of it would be. From how she said it, I don't think she necessarily agreed with how it should be. I can see how it might be considered legal. NDA's are generally legal and you don't necessarily have the right to say anything you want (slander/defamation, false advertising, etc). It would be interesting to see the outcome of a case on this. I guess I feel that free speech is important in commerce so that a consumer can determine what product/service they want to purchase. Blocking free speech for this (and other agreements, like where Oracle tries to prevent people from publishing benchmarks) hurts competition.

      --
      Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
    5. Re:According to my business law prof... by chappel · · Score: 1

      "contract of adhesion".

      Is that like a band-aid with fine print?

  7. Mark through and initial. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2, Informative

    When I see something I don't like in those types of documments, I simply mark through it and initial. Don't know if it would hold up, but it's better than nothing. I've never had anyone say anything - probably because *they* don't read them afterward, which, of course, is not my problem ...

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Mark through and initial. by Imagix · · Score: 1

      Probably not since both parties would have to initial the amendment.

    2. Re:Mark through and initial. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what, if it's not a valid contract it can't prevent you from giving reviews.

  8. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know why? I can't judge a doctor and I suspect no one else can either. Online review sites are the last place I'd go to find a doctor. If I have to get advice, I'll at least ask a friend. Granted I wouldn't sign one of these anyways.

  9. Contract is POWERFUL by redelm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In general, contracts are considered to be full-fledged agreements between parties and courts will bind them.

    However, there are three doctrines under which gag clauses could be severed:

    incapacity -- you were on the gurney when you signed and did not properly review the contract

    fundamental breech -- a party who does a terrible job of fulfilling their promises can no longer hold the other party to theirs; and

    public policy -- courts can invalidate any clause they deem contrary to public policy.

    US courts are very reluctant to use any of these. But a given sets of facts may drive a court. Bad facts make bad law. IANAL.

  10. Reality check. by girlintraining · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Everyone, repeat after me; "Some Contracts Are Not Legally Enforceable."

    Many of us have had to sign non-compete clauses, sign documents stating to hold ex-employers harmless so a prospective employer can ask them whatever, etc., etc. See though, most contracts have some language to the effect of "if some of this is declared crap, the rest shall remain in effect." They put that in there because they know there is crap language in there and are hoping you just go along with it because it "looks legal". It's the same way RIAA, the MPAA, and all those cease and desist orders we keep hearing about operate; Make it look official and chances are good people will go "Oh Noes! Legal Mumbo Jumbo! Aieeeeeee. thud."

    My advice? Sign it. Get treated. If s/he does a good job -- great, say so. If they do a crap job though, tell the whole damn world (but have proof). If that doctor wants to come after you for it; "Hello? Channel 9 news? I'm being oppressed." He might get you for breach of contract, but you'll make sure it's the last time anyone signs it. Think someone wants to risk their career, after spending 10 years just getting started in it, trying to prosecute someone who told the truth? Get real.

    --
    #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    1. Re:Reality check. by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      He might get you for breach of contract

      Since when did receiving and paying for medical care become a contract?

      That's the thing that irks the snot out of me, it's a frigging SERVICE not a contract.

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    2. Re:Reality check. by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Well, one way to counter a non-compete is to make a counter offer that stipulates a paycheck for every normal pay period that is equal to what I would have gotten for working here, up to however many years.

      Then you proceed to use that money for _not working_ to go back to school and get a better degree.

      --
    3. Re:Reality check. by mea37 · · Score: 1

      People enter into contracts to receive services all the time. What makes this any different?

    4. Re:Reality check. by Em+Emalb · · Score: 1

      people also don't enter into contracts to receive services all the time, what makes this any different?

      See what I did there? ;P

      --
      Sent from your iPad.
    5. Re:Reality check. by qbzzt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the thing that irks the snot out of me, it's a frigging SERVICE not a contract.

      It only becomes a contract is you sign a paper to that effect, which most doctors' offices ask you to do. The contact is mostly so you'll be bound to pay your deductible and if the insurance denies them.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
    6. Re:Reality check. by johnsonav · · Score: 1

      people also don't enter into contracts to receive services all the time, what makes this any different?

      When was the last time you received a service without, at least, a verbal contract? It's still a contract.

      --
      ... and that's when the C.H.U.D.'s came at me.
    7. Re:Reality check. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get real?

      How about this... a Doctor more than likely makes more money than the vast majority of patients. His lawyers, already on retainer to handle the variety of legal issues common in any practice, are more than happy to rack up billable hours filing motion after motion against a patient in breach of this contract. Sure, IF it goes to trial, they might not be able to win. But are you aware of how many cases actually go to trial? And how many are quietly settled out of court under a veil of secrecy as part of that settlement?

      The average individual, unprepared for a sudden barrage of legal attacks, is woefully unlikely to stand up, find a lawyer WILLING to take on such a case, and then doggedly outlast the attacking attorneys. Given that pro bono legal help won't be coming until there's significant exposure, and a chance of winning outright in a high profile case, and it comes down to simple, cold, calculating economics.

      Can you afford to outspend your doctor on legal expenses? Can you fight not only breach of contract, but slander/libel charges, immediate collections efforts, and the possibility of your insurance company dropping you like a hot rock to avoid getting caught in the case? And given that most doctors pool resources to lower costs and increase services, expand this... can you afford to take on a large group practice? A hospital with dedicated on-staff legal experts?

      Would you like the first thing you hear a doctor say, upon arriving in his exam room, "Oh, aren't you the guy that is being sued for badmouthing Dr. Smith?"

      The vast majority of people lack the resources, will, and sheer chutzpah to take these kinds of risks with their life. Because it can have very long, very lasting effects on their life.

      And that, is reality.

    8. Re:Reality check. by girlintraining · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sir, you mistake litigants as entirely and wholly rational people. This will be your downfall.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    9. Re:Reality check. by Peyna · · Score: 1

      If you exchanged something for those services, you technically did enter into a contract. It only lasted for a fraction of a second, but there was an oral contract. The contract being, I pay you X, you do Y.

      --
      What?
    10. Re:Reality check. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Of course, if the insurance denies them you might still not be liable. Most likely your doctor signed a contract with your insurance company in which they agreed to hold you harmless for any fees incurred not in accordance with the plan.

      So now we have a contract with A and B, a contract with B and C, and a contract with A and C that all disagree. You also have a doctor that isn't eager to lose their contract with B and EVERY other company like B. They'll certainly bug you but most likely the charges wouldn't stand up in court.

      Of course, they can still put a complaint in your credit history. Credit reporting agencies need a bit more regulation. Companies shouldn't be able to simply lodge complaints without some kind of judgment against you. Courts are the forum for weighing liability - not credit reporting agencies (who are paid by the people who have a complaint against you).

    11. Re:Reality check. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are these contracts you speak of?

      I've been treated by GPs in several countries outside the US and have never had to sign a contract - or verbally agree to a contract - before, during or after treatment.

    12. Re:Reality check. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have the unfortunate experience of having to modify template contracts and them with my clients. Yes, my contracts have the severebility (sp?) clause in them too. It is not because my contracts are bad and that I'm making demands of the other party that I know will not hold up in a court of law. It's because the law is often times open to interpretation, and if something is interpreted in a manner other than expected (language has that problem...), I don't want my whole contract to be tossed out. There is no malice involved in my contracts. I don't even try to force people into mandatory binding arbitration. If somebody sues my company and the insurance isn't enough to cover it, I melt it down and cut my losses.

      Man, next somebody might say my contracts are bad because I use a force majeure clause in them too...

    13. Re:Reality check. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      gp was being needlessly pedantic. Thinking like him, saying "that will be $5 please" is the contract terms, and your paying of the $5 is then your agreement to such terms. But we needn't be THIS pedantic.

    14. Re:Reality check. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you like the first thing you hear a doctor say, upon arriving in his exam room, "Oh, aren't you the guy that is being sued for badmouthing Dr. Smith?"

      The vast majority of people lack the resources, will, and sheer chutzpah to take these kinds of risks with their life. Because it can have very short, very lasting effects on their life.

      There, fixed that for you.

    15. Re:Reality check. by mea37 · · Score: 1

      "See what I did there?"

      Yes, I do. What you did there, was miss the point.

  11. Consideration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So you are giving them money in exchange for medical services. What exactly are they giving you in exchange for you giving up your rights to review them? There must be some sort of exchange of value, consideration, or the contract is void. They can't simply say that you are giving up the right for nothing in return and it stand up in court. Also, this may not be enforceable and could be ruled unconscionable.

  12. Non-issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Inalienable means âoeunable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.â

  13. Sicko by tsa · · Score: 1

    That reminds me I still have to download 'Sicko' somehwere and watch it.

    --

    -- Cheers!

    1. Re:Sicko by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ironically enough there is more discussion about lawyers than doctors here... hmm, perhaps Sicko should take note...

  14. Thank god for the NHS by Patch86 · · Score: 1

    Private healthcare seems to have some disadvantages.

    The First Amendment would definitely apply if those doctors were employees of the US government...

  15. I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by SmoothTom · · Score: 1

    ...at least not with MY signature.

    I generally will put something in the signature space, but it will not be my signature.

    Nine times out of ten they do not inspect the signatures, and if it comes down to trying to enforce something I obviously did not sign, they can go ahead and try.

    (Especially if the signature block contains a scribbled "Not Signed"...)

    --Tomas
    ---University Place, WA

    1. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by maxume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Has this worked yet, or are you just, you know, hopeful?

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by SmoothTom · · Score: 1

      I HAVE "signed" documents in a stack of documents in that way and had them accepted, I have not yet had to fight anyone in court over whether or not something obviously not my signature is my signature. You're on your own trying it, of course...

      --Tomas

    3. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by SecurityGuy · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but perhaps you should talk to one. I believe anything you intend or represent to be your signature legally IS your signature.

    4. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but perhaps you should talk to one. I believe anything you intend or represent to be your signature legally IS your signature.

      Clearly he doesn't intend the mark to be his signature so the intent requirement isn't met.
      The leaves whether he represented the mark to be his signature. That's trickier... if someone hands me a document and says sign it, and I write in neat legible cursive 'terms declined' and hand it back... could you really say I represented that to be my signature, and not the rather plain rejection of the terms.

    5. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by maxume · · Score: 1

      I would hope that a reasonable court would decide that his intent is to make the other party believe he has signed, which, for me, is good enough to treat him as if he signed it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, I have no intention of trying it.

      I don't see any reason to sign a contract if the terms of the contract are such that I need to deceive the other party just to feel like it is reasonable.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I would hope that a reasonable court would decide that his intent is to make the other party believe he has signed, which, for me, is good enough to treat him as if he signed it.

      Hmmm...

      So then, a reasonable court should decide that my phone and cell phone bill should have been free and 25.95 per month... after all the sales rep talked on and on and on about how the phone was free, and the plan was 25.99... clearly that's what they intended for me to beleive, right?

      And if I signed and walked out thinking that's what I got... yet a month later I get a much larger bill full of fees and service charges. Sure if I'd read the fine print in the contract it was ALL there... the $6.95 system access fee, the $.95 9-1-1 fee, the $30 activation fee.... but that's not what they intended me to beleive... clearly the word "FREE PHONES" in 5 foot tall letters on the banner and million dollar TV commericals talking about their 25.95 unimited voice plans...nah... they didn't intend for me to actually believe any of that.

      And a poor musician... JACKPOT. They're home free. A reasonable court should decide that the [Big Label] intended for them to believe they would actually make significant amounts of money by signing up with the label, not end up permanently in debt to the label, working like slaves under their thumbs. I mean, how many bands do you think would sign THAT contract? "You will work like slaves for a year, with a 95% chance of owing us several thousand dollars at the end." Its the truth. But its certainly not what they 'intend' the band to believe when they sign it.

    8. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by Dravik · · Score: 1

      Considering an "X" can be considered a valid signature, I'll bet that anything you present as your signature is your signature.

      --
      The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
    9. Re:I simply don't sign those sorts of documents... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Well, actually, I think it is bullshit that phone companies can advertise the base rates without including the fees. And it is somewhat dishonest, but it is a different dishonesty than what the op was proposing (they are playing word games and the op is misrepresenting his actions).

      The musician thing is tougher, and I don't think it is right that the music companies get away with it, but it isn't exactly a secret that they right the contracts for themselves, and it isn't exactly the case that anybody has done anything about it (I'm actually in a situation where I signed a royalty contract without getting a lawyer involved, and I'm regretting it; time will tell how much I regret it (the work is done, with no royalties to show for yet)).

      (Anyway, I bet in situations where the contract is much more than ass-covery, the OP would find out that the contract didn't get countersigned, like situations where he is doing work and someone is paying him for it)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  16. Combine that with anonymous posting...? by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

    So recent news has taught me that if you post something anonymously, someone can sue to get you revealed. If a doctor has a "no negative review" in their contract, and they see a negative review online by anonymous, is that enough grounds to sue the website into revealing their identities?

    And how far do these clauses go? Can I not review online or can I not even talk to friends who might post my negative comments online? If I complain about a doctor to a friend, and they post those comments anonymously, would the website be sued to get my friend's info, then my friend sued to get my info, then me sued for breach of contract? Seems illogical, and certainly stupid (streisand effect and all), but these are lawsuits we're talking about, it's not like rules of logic apply in any way.

  17. so your position is by circletimessquare · · Score: 3, Insightful

    since its unenforceable, its no big deal

    but you are disregarding the issue of intent

    simple actual effect is not the only grounds on which we can, and should, legally proceed, on this question or any other

    that's why we can try people for attempted murder. but according to you, someone is innocent until they actually murder someone. that if they try to murder someone, and fail, according to your approach they get off scott free. wrong. or consider the riaa: their reason for being is to stop music piracy. their tactic of suing grandmothers and students of course has zero effect. but according to you, since their intent is unfulfilled, they can't be prosecuted on the grounds of having an legally questionable purpose (nevermind being prosecuted for the secondary damage to their main purpose, of extortion of people of limited means)

    no, your entire argument completely disregards the notion of intent, which is a completely valid legal concept

    if someone attempts to squash your freedom of speech, they have violated the spirit of the law, if not technically successful

    and they are therefore wrong, morally, and legally

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:so your position is by Jay+L · · Score: 1

      if someone attempts to squash your freedom of speech, they have violated the spirit of the law, if not technically successful. and they are therefore wrong, morally, and legally

      Which law is that?

      Only askin' cause you seem to know a lot about legal validity and all.

    2. Re:so your position is by SlowGenius · · Score: 1

      > if someone attempts to squash your freedom of speech, they have violated the spirit of the law, if not technically successful...

      Agreed. But for some reason the powers that be won't let us docs post negative reviews about any of our patients to warn our peers that they want to just stay as far the frak away as possible. I can only imagine how much health care could be improved for the masses if docs had freedom of speech and actual autonomy regarding our business dealings/associations. We don't--we're generally at the mercy of the insurance companies, and in many cases we're forced to sign contracts of our own that prevent us from bitching about how badly those companies are shafting us. Among other things.

      --
      Listen to what I say, not what I mean...
    3. Re:so your position is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if one tried to murder someone and failed, they would get off scott free from a murder prosecution. that's why we have attempted murder charges, to cover just such an incident.

  18. anonymous reviews, and consequences of suing by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    I've not perused these types of websites, but couldn't you post anonymously? To come after you, the doctor would have to prove that it was you posting, wouldn't they?

    Another thing that occurs to me: Say you sign the paperwork in order to get service. The doctor botches it and you post an unfavorable review. The doctor sues you for breach of contract. Then the doctor has to see evidence of the botched procedure brought up in court and perhaps in the media. It seems like suing a patient would be a very dangerous thing to do. You might win the suit, but be left with no way to salvage your reputation.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  19. Not first amendment! by Mr_Icon · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Repeat after me -- first amendment and other rights provided by the US constitution are ONLY applicable when you're dealing with the US government. When you are dealing with private entities, constitutional rights and freedoms do not apply (think, for example, Non-Disclosure Agreements -- which is pretty much all this is). Yes, doctors now insist on an NDA (for the purposes of CYA) -- that's a WTF, but not a violation of your constitutional rights.

    --
    If you open yourself to the foo, You and foo become one.
    1. Re:Not first amendment! by jra · · Score: 1

      As has been noted here, almost every doctor accepts assignment to some government reimbursement program like Medicare or Medicaid.

      Since "[a]lthough the First Amendment only explicitly applies to the Congress, the Supreme Court has interpreted it as applying to the executive and judicial branches. Additionally, in the 20th century the Supreme Court held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the limitations of the First Amendment to each state, including any local government within a state.".. it's likely that a case could be made that a doctor doing this is violating 42 USC 1983, depriving you of a civil right (due process, if not free speech) "under color of law", and that you could sue them personally for treble damages.

      1983 is a *really cool* statute. Look it up.

  20. Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by EWAdams · · Score: 3, Informative

    I live in the UK, where I have no need of a contract with my doctor. I turn up, he treats me, I go away without signing a contract or paying a penny. I can say anything I like about him as long as it's not defamatory.

    --
    I piss off bigots.
    1. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I go away without...paying a penny."

      And what is your total tax burden? (no such thing as a free lunch)

    2. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by Aphoxema · · Score: 1

      But there has to be a catch somewhere! Right? RIGHT?!

      I want socialized medicine too u.u

      --
      "Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
    3. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by jra · · Score: 1

      Yes, but does he leave you open on the table and go to the pub for lunch and a pint?

      (When he finally gets to you, 6 months late)

    4. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by deepershade · · Score: 1

      It's hard to answer that question. There isn't a specific NHS tax. Funding for it is syphoned off from other taxes. For example, tax on products like cigs go towards the NHS (which really screws with peoples arguments of 'why should we pay for smokers' because its basically the smokers paying for them most of the time). Without doing a FoI request on this specific matter, it'd be impossible for me to say based upon the websearches I just came across. It also depends on what you earn per year. lower earners pay less, higher earners, more etc etc.

    5. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by Improv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The health-care portion is probably less on average than what the average insured American pays for the same. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have really nice insurance in the US might be better off - it's depends on specifics (I happen to work for a University in an area that has a health insurance plan/medical network run by a local university-spawned medical organisation that's considered one of the best in the country for service/cost - I am very happy with my private insurance and healthcare. Most people and places are not nearly that fortunate).

      Socialised medicine, as a general rule, is right for society, even if the wealthy and/or fortunate have something better.

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    6. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by maztuhblastah · · Score: 1

      I can say anything I like about him as long as it's not defamatory.

      And as long as it's not against his religion. Or race.

      Hey look, I can make tangentially-related jabs at your country too!

    7. Re:Not my problem -- I have socialized medicine. by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      > I turn up, he treats me, I go away without... paying a penny.

      EPIC FAIL

  21. In other news by Alarindris · · Score: 1

    Businesses have people signing NDA's! They're taking our first amendment rights!

    1. Re:In other news by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Your analysis is facile.

      Yes, NDAs are not (generally) a first amendment issue; but "NDAs for a variety of industry specific contract stuff" and "NDAs for something that virtually everybody will end up needing, possibly very badly, where making a less informed choice might just kill you" seem just slightly different somehow.

      Just because two things look the same in very broad strokes doesn't make them equivalent in practice.

    2. Re:In other news by Alarindris · · Score: 1

      My point was that first amendment rights only apply to the government. Not businesses or ordinary people.

  22. Level the playing field. by ibpooks · · Score: 1

    Consider that doctors are forbidden by Federal HIPPA laws from responding to or even acknowledging that they have treated a given patient without that patient's written consent. It really is not fair that the patient is able to post whatever review he wants about a doctor on some website, yet the doctor is forbidden from posting a counter argument or defense of himself against this patients claims.

    Perhaps the patient ignored the doctor's advice, skipped checkups, won't stop eating nachos or failed to take medication which contributed to his opinion of poor service from the doctor when in fact it wasn't the doctor's fault. It seems only fair that when a patient publishes a public complaint against a doctor the doctor should be able to publicly address those complaints to clear his name.

    1. Re:Level the playing field. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When was the last time a patient mistakenly amputated the genitals of a doctor?

    2. Re:Level the playing field. by Asic+Eng · · Score: 1

      There are interests of different quality involved there: the interest of the patient to be treated well and receive high quality care - vs the interest of the doctor to earn a living. I think it's clear that the first interest is a lot more important. Besides - this is the situation *any* business is in. It's not really a problem: a good doctor - just like a good restaurant - will generate good reviews, too. Statistically it's very unlikely that all whining patients use the same doctor, everybody will have a few.

    3. Re:Level the playing field. by hostguy2004 · · Score: 1

      But they could ask patients to submit positive results to the same review site. AT&T ask me questions like "Did I solve your problem?" and "Would you rate my service as excellent?" Why cant a nurse do a patient exit briefing to ensure the patient is satisfied with their treatment and service..?

      --
      In Soviet Russia ^H^H^H America, The bank finances YOU!
    4. Re:Level the playing field. by ibpooks · · Score: 1

      this is the situation *any* business is in.,

      No, it's a different situation. Other businesses can publish responses to critisim. They can refute claims -- a restaurant owner can write a letter to the editor to complain about a bad review. A doctor is legally prohibited from disclosing _any_ information about his interaction with a patient, even if the patient completely lied or fabricated a review.

      It's not really a problem: a good doctor - just like a good restaurant - will generate good reviews, too. Statistically it's very unlikely that all whining patients use the same doctor, everybody will have a few.

      Yes that's true, but there are bad, dishonest patients out there who will go out of their way to harm a doctor's business, and there's really nothing the doctor can do about it. That is what I see as unfair in the reviewing system.

  23. Problem with mindset by ParanoiaBOTS · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think that people have the wrong idea about contracts. Contracts don't make it so you CAN'T do something, they just make it so there are possible consequences for it. If I signed a waiver and then posted about the doctor this merely (possibly) gives him the right to take legal action for it. But in that regard the damage is already done. As we have witnessed countless times, once something it out on the web, the harder you try to suppress it the more attention it attracts. It really boils down to do you think someone will act on the contract, and if so, how bad are the possible consequences.

  24. What the fuck? by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How can a contract's validity depend on the contents of other contracts. A contract ought to be valid or invalid in itself, subject to any appropriate legislation. A contract's validity depending on the behavior of other actors is fundamentally unfair.

    1. Re:What the fuck? by asdfman2000 · · Score: 1

      A contract's validity depending on the behavior of other actors is fundamentally unfair.

      So are Trusts.

    2. Re:What the fuck? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "How can a contract's validity depend on the contents of other contracts. A contract ought to be valid or invalid in itself, subject to any appropriate legislation. A contract's validity depending on the behavior of other actors is fundamentally unfair."

      A few of the services doing it = free market, don't like it, go somewhere else

      Everyone doing it = monopoly / some other kind of collusion

    3. Re:What the fuck? by WNight · · Score: 1

      The actions of third-parties before the contract is negotiated creates a certain environment. In that environment certain contracts may (not) be enforceable.

      But yeah, third-parties post-sale, no.

  25. Re:I for one, bow down to my legal overlords! by overlordofmu · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    To be clear, "Mu" is an English representation for the Chinese character which means "nothing".

    So, unless you are non-existent, I have no power over you.

  26. Give 'em a Break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While I don't agree the practice of trying to stifle speech, I also don't think the average person is qualified to assess a doctor's performance except in a few common areas like whether he/she treated you courteously. Because of sites like WebMD and shows like House, people come into the doctor with a bunch of preconceived notions and expectations that aren't really based in reality. Medicine isn't black and white, and given a set of symptoms you'll likely get different diagnoses from different doctors. Doctors have to put up with a lot of shit, let's give them a break.

    1. Re:Give 'em a Break by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In one case, the doctor was not listening to me. I know because I flat contradicted him twice, and he just continued. I had no confidence in his recommendations, since they were based on assumptions that simply didn't apply to me. (Turned out that they were good anyway, on talking to another doctor, but I had no way to know that.)

      That is an example of something relevant to medical performance that I can observe and comment on. It's not merely courtesy or idiosyncrasy (like the oncologist who always looked away when talking about cancer).

      I will admit that this isn't common, and that most complaints will be about things like refusal to give antibiotics for a viral infection, but anybody halfway intelligent will know what to look for.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:Give 'em a Break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      When I'm trying to fix a technical problem with a computer, there's a series of questions I ask the user. At some point enough things fall into place that I'm able to deduce the problem, and what the user is saying simply becomes noise (at least until I confirm my diagnosis). A user trying to be tricky and contradict themselves at this point to see if I'm listening to them would probably be disappointed, but at least their problem gets solved.

      Despite not listening to you, the doctor was able to make good, useful recommendations that you confirmed with a second opinion? In this case, I think it's simply a matter of different expectations. If you don't like how you're being treated then by all means go see another doctor. Hell a second opinion never hurts. This is not a case where you should rush out to give this doctor a negative review.

    3. Re:Give 'em a Break by Logic+Worshiper · · Score: 1

      People aren't computers. You're fixing the computer, not the user. The doctor's job is to treat the person, not to maintain an object. They owe that person respect.

    4. Re:Give 'em a Break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess we have different expectations when going to the doctor. I go to the doctor to get my problems solved, not to chit chat or hang out. If the doctor can do that by asking a few questions then that's great. If I don't necessarily 'click' with the doctor and if that's important to me, then I'm always free to go see someone else. Just because I don't get along with the doctor doesn't mean he's a bad doctor. I could just be an asshole or impossible to please. It's not something to write a bad review over, though.

    5. Re:Give 'em a Break by Logic+Worshiper · · Score: 1

      Let's go back to to the fixing a computer issue. You ask the user what's wrong, then you check for the problem yourself (or just get started reinstalling the operating system, something doctors can't do). Maybe you open the computer to check the hardware. A doctor's job is to treat a person, and that person knows more than the doctor about what's wrong because it's their body. For the doctor to do their job they'd have to listen to a person to understand what's going on, and treat them properly.

    6. Re:Give 'em a Break by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He said that the doctor wasn't listening to me but upon getting a second opinion the original doctor's recommendations were sound. So either the doctor was listening to him long enough to make a correct diagnosis or he has a psychic for a doctor. I'm guessing it's the former.

      A person *maybe* knows more about the the symptoms that their body is exhibiting but you're a fool if you honestly believe "it's my body, I know more about what's wrong than the doctor". Obviously that's not the case because then you'd just fix the problem yourself and leave out the doctor. And how often do you wake up in the morning and say, "Gee, I think my cholesterol's a bit up." The human body is a lot more complicated than a computer. There's limits to what you can sense and articulate as a patient. What you tell the doctor can provide great insights into what ails you but it can also be counter productive or misleading. The dudes doctor probably looked at his charts, asked the guy a few questions, and decided on a treatment that would either solve the dude's problem or narrow down the possibilities.

      The original doctor did his job. You presented with problems, he diagnosed the problem and proposed a sound treatment. So it's basically a personal preference as to whether you "enjoyed the process". If you didn't, and you have the means to, shop around for another doctor. It's no skin off your back and it's no skin of the doctors. However, I disagree with posting a bad review online because the doctor did his job, you just didn't like how he got there. I do, however, have no problem with you saying to a friend looking for a doctor that "I didn't really like doctor XXX". The key difference in my opinion is that there is context. Your friend knows you and knows the kind of person you are so they can extrapolate what sort of experience they might have. If some of my friends said they didn't like a doctor, that would probably a positive endorsement in my book. Online we don't have this context. It could be (and probably is) that the person posting a negative review is an asshat or an impossible person to please or just plain an idiot.

      I'm not just speaking out of my ass here. My wife is a doctor who rotates through a different hospital every month. She's always coming home with stories. There's a lot broken about the health care system. There's also a lot of impossible patients.

    7. Re:Give 'em a Break by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 1

      that person knows more than the doctor about what's wrong because it's their body.

      The fixing a computer analogy is actually a pretty good one. Pretend the computer is the patient's body, and the user is their mind, and it works out better IMO.

      Thinking of it like that, what do you want from the user? Not their theories of what might be the problem, or what they want you to do to fix the problem they've decided they have, but what, specifically, is going wrong with the computer?

      Further than telling the symptoms the patient generally has no clue what's up, and it's at that point I think many people start to feel the doc isn't paying attention, because while they think they're being helpful, talking about something they googled or their cousin had or whatnot, they're not providing useful information anymore.

      Exceptions surely exist, and there are nuances to the situations, but it really does remind me a lot of looking at a computer that clearly has a hardware problem while the owner is yelling that they have a virus and trying to get information despite the preconception.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    8. Re:Give 'em a Break by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Except that that's not what happened.

      I described my symptoms. The doctor then said two things about me that were false, and I contradicted him. He then gave me his recommendations.

      In other words, he was proceeding from a demonstrably inaccurate model of the situation, and at that point I had no reason to trust his recommendations.

      For your analogy, you deduce the problem, and completely ignore the confirmation, while saying things the user knows are wrong from actually going through the problem. My knowledge of physiology and anatomy is much less than the doctor's, but I do know when my feet hurt and when they don't, and if he tells me they don't hurt when they do I know he's wrong in what he thinks.

      In your case, you deduce the problem, and deduce consequences you can check. I assume that if you tell the user that the flux capacitor is getting overheated, and either you or the user feel it and it's ice cold, you revise your estimate.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  27. can't sign away your first amendment rights by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    to a doctor. They can try all they want, but it won't hold up in court.

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
  28. How to lose clients and alienate patients. by Stealth+Dave · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is why the movie Sicko! was so popular and why the idea of health care reform is becoming more and more popular, despite attempts to categorically dismiss it as a "socialist" idea. People have enough problems getting proper medical care without having to worry about whether your doctor is going to require you sign away your rights in order to get treatment.

    On one occasion when going to see a specialist for the first time, I was presented with the usual stack of paperwork before I was allowed to see the doctor. Luckily, I have an annoying habit of reading a document before I sign it, as one of the documents was (as another reader has described) an agreement to waive my right to sue for malpractice, and to instead agree to arbitration of their choosing. I signed the other documents and told the receptionist that I would need to have my lawyer look over the waiver before I would sign it, and she responded "Oh, okay. Just bring it in whenever; it's optional, anyway." Optional? Then why was it buried in this stack of required paperwork?!? (Yes, that question is rhetorical.) Needless to say, I opted not to sign it, and I got to see the doctor anyway.

    This is the last thing that the health care industry needs right now as it battles a PR campaign against movies like Sicko! and all the various "investigative reporters" for everyone from your local news to CNN. My wife and I even made our own short film about it. (Go ahead; mod me a Troll, I don't care.)

    - Dave

    --
    Evil is as eval("does");
    1. Re:How to lose clients and alienate patients. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You say that it's the last thing that the health care industry needs...

      People are always going to need doctors. Patients need doctors a lot more than doctors need patients. That- in no way- excuses nasty behavior by doctors, but don't ever forget that.

    2. Re:How to lose clients and alienate patients. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      StealthDave provides poo poo service and is a quack and got his /. Troll License from a cracker jack box.

      Christ on a cross! How can I manage to share my opinionated review and not be visited by his cartel cronies from the /. Pharmaownyourassical goon squad you may ask?

      Anonymous, bitches!

      That's right, you too can write what you want when you want through the joy of anonymity. No auto anonymous feature? No problem, what the hell do you think web mail was invented for besides porn site accounts?! Worried about your IP being tracked down, shit fool use an anonymous proxy or take anonymous proxy software trial period for a spin. In no time, eyebangnewtswifetoo at hotmail dot com can have registration mailed to the freshly created account while on your anonymous proxy and you can then login and post your anonymous opinion!

      That is right friends, with a few anonymous proxy bounces and a freshly created webmail account you can sign that paper "Major Woody" and still go on to voice your opinion on that doctor! Besides, everybody knows doctors are nothing more than crooked foot soldier thieves for the insurance and pharmacy industries and they only care about their 8th home in the Hamptons along with their 12 yachts and 27 brand new cars. So if you hurt their widdy biddy feelings, cut them a script for some vitamin W. For, WHO GIVES A FUCK!

      This has been a public service announcement brought to you by the Slashdot Troll Union Local 420.

    3. Re:How to lose clients and alienate patients. by Shajenko42 · · Score: 1

      But we don't need the AMA. Not if they restrict the number of doctors.

    4. Re:How to lose clients and alienate patients. by Improv · · Score: 1

      If the way that they restrict the number of doctors is to exclude the unqualified, it's probably a good thing. :)

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    5. Re:How to lose clients and alienate patients. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      quite to the contrary. This is a response to the Dem's rules that you can sue anyone, anytime, for anything, real or imagined.

    6. Re:How to lose clients and alienate patients. by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      There is nothing socialist about health care reform. What is socialist is some of the suggestions on how it should be reformed. And the problem is that sometimes politicians say "health care reform" when they want to avoid using the words "universal public health care". If these politicians didn't muddy the semantic waters, everyone could agree that some kind of reform is necessary.

  29. different question: could it be binding? by boombaard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I mean, how likely are you to be able to refuse to sign this, if your health is at stake?
    How likely is it period to expect your physician to put this form under your nose before being willing to help you? It seems somewhat comparable to a EULA in that regard, seeing that there is no way to test the product other than by 'buying' it first. Can that be binding?
    the NDA comparison doesn't seem to apply, since you don't generally sign NDAs in life-threatening situations, or situations in which you are perhaps intentionally kept uninformed of the consequences of signing such a thing.

    And what happens then? Can your physician refuse to treat you? Can he do so always, only in 'non-life-threatening' cases, or never? It seems very murky, medical ethics-wise.

    1. Re:different question: could it be binding? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I was injured in an on the job accident, an office chair flipped me. The Safety Officer took me to the hospital and after speaking with the admissions nurse told me I couldn't be treated unless I took a drug test.

      This was a new policy the company had implemented and since I didn't agree to it I refused. The Safety Officer and several of the nurses became absolutely irate and acted as they couldn't believe I was refusing the test.

      The Safety Officer told me in that case I couldn't be treated and the nurses backed him up.

      As I was leaving to catch a cab the presiding doctor ran out of the building and *begged* me to return inside so he could treat me.

      I did and he did. After diagnosing the problem and recommending the appropriate treatment he apologized again for the 'misunderstanding' earlier. It seemed to me at the time he was mightily afraid of being sued for refusing treatment.

      After returning to work neither the VP I worked for nor the Safety officer ever mentioned it.

    2. Re:different question: could it be binding? by midicase · · Score: 1

      Unlike a EULA, the patients are able to review the documentation before accepting treatment. If there is part of the "contract" that you do not agree to, then just pen through it and hand write an alternative. Contracts are not an all or nothing piece of printed paper. They are negotiable.

    3. Re:different question: could it be binding? by Uzuri · · Score: 1

      That kinda depends, though. Yeah, when I go to my GP I have time to read the thing... when I was in the ER with appendicitis... not so much. I was lucky I could tell the ceiling from the floor; I'd have signed my own death warrant if they put it in front of me.

      To be fair, this all does sound like it is about GPs and specialists, not emergency.

      --
      I'm a she-slashdotter... but I make up for it by living with my folks.
  30. Re:I for one, bow down to my legal overlords! by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

    Yeah...the problem is that 1.3 million people have said a variation on the same thing, before you...it gets old.

    --
    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  31. skip those doctors by SirLanse · · Score: 1

    If a doctor wants you to sign it, they suuuuuccckkk.
    If you are looking at ratings, look at more than one.
    If a doctor does Good, please mention it to the ratings.
    The problem is the AMA has shielded BAD TERRIBLE Doctors from being found out.
    They get lawsuits sealed and keep on issuing credentials to worst 2%.
    The worst Doctors account for a huge percentage of the lawsuits.
    The AMA protects them, we can't find out who they are.

    1. Re:skip those doctors by hostguy2004 · · Score: 1

      The problem is the AMA has shielded BAD TERRIBLE Doctors from being found out. They get lawsuits sealed and keep on issuing credentials to worst 2%. The worst Doctors account for a huge percentage of the lawsuits. The AMA protects them, we can't find out who they are.

      [citation needed]

      --
      In Soviet Russia ^H^H^H America, The bank finances YOU!
  32. Talk about "Do no harm"... by davidsyes · · Score: 1

    So much for THAT. Talk about "Doctors with NDA Borders"...

    (an aside... I just noticed in the slashdot page the Sprint/Sierra Wireless Broadband Modem. I don't know why Sprint won't admit it in the adverts, but the Sierra U598 works in Mandriva 2009, and in Linux using newest kernel... Use kppp to set it up and turn it on. However, there is no facility in Linux/Kppp to cumulatively track the usage, so unless you use packet sniffers, or capture tools, you won't know your up/downstream consumption for personal billing purposes. ~ 5GB per month is what they allow...)

    --
    Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
  33. Publish a list of those doctors by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1
    At the top of the page, put a comment something like: we wonder what these doctors may have to hide if they prevent their patients from talking.

    That ought to fix it.

  34. Re:non-issue Becomes Issue by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    What happens when you have a hypochondriac who decides, irrationally, to go "after" a doctor who's treatment he did not like, did not think worked or whatever?

    It becomes a bitch to deal with.

  35. 'Bout the same as it was in California. by EWAdams · · Score: 1

    I checked out my tax situation with KPMG Peat Marwick before I came.

    Gasoline is way higher, all of it taxes, but then I drive way less, because another thing the UK has is ubiquitous public transport.

    VAT is about 10% higher than California sales tax, but the main effect of this is to prevent me impulse-buying crap I don't need anyway.

    --
    I piss off bigots.
  36. I can almost always see my GP the same day. by EWAdams · · Score: 2, Informative

    With my old HMO I was lucky to see her the same WEEK. The last time I asked for a physical in the US I was given an appointment six months in the future.

    --
    I piss off bigots.
    1. Re:I can almost always see my GP the same day. by bebemochi · · Score: 1

      Thank goodness not everyone has their head stuck in the sand... I live in France (no, I'm not French, I'm originally from Oregon) and get tired of reading remarks like "yah but u socialists have to wait for months, har har!" as if people don't do precisely that with health providers in the US (I too speak from experience with US HMOs, and that was ten years ago, back when it was less bad than now). Not to mention these critiques very often come from people who've never actually lived in the country they're criticizing, much less know someone who lives there. No, they're usually the type who criticizes the liberal media, but then will take the "liberal media" reports on socialized health care to be God's given truth, when I've yet to see a report (including Moore's film, by the way) that reflects French health care accurately. (I single out France merely because that's the only European country I can speak to from experience, aside from Finland, where I only lived a couple of years.)

      As for France, I can get an appointment with my GP on the same day, or at the VERY latest, the next day. I've lived here for 10 years now. For specialists -- opthalmologists, dentists, laboratories, gynecologists (I'm female), and also for sonograms, x-rays etc. (all of which I've had to have) -- I can also get an appointment the same day, or at latest the next. Labs you can usually just walk into and you'll get whatever's needed done within an hour or two, no appointment needed. I've also had a few emergencies, including hospitalization and an operation, which were taken care of so promptly that I barely remember them, apart from being immensely relieved that I was taken care of so well.

      Back on the subject, in my ten years in France, I've yet to meet anyone -- and I work in a large consulting company where I'm regularly in other, large companies' offices as well, so I meet an awful lot of people, and health care is something they discuss -- who's had anything remotely resembling malpractice troubles. The worst complaints I hear about doctors are "oh my doctor just totally brushed off my precious little one's dry cough as if it were nothing!!! And precious had started coughing an HOUR earlier!! What if precious comes down with pneumonia?!?!" In short, they're spoiled... while it's nice to be spoiled into having good health, it does explain some of the budget problems that the French national health care system has. (Not exactly economical to take Little Precious in to see a GP every single darn time the kid starts to cough, or heaven forbid, gets a scratch. They're not all like that, although it's much more widespread than in the US, for obvious reasons.) Anyway, as a result, I honestly have no idea how complaints about doctors are handled. We have free choice of doctors here, and everyone shares information about them as a matter of course, so I think bad ones go out of business pretty quickly. I personally have never heard of patient views being silenced.

  37. Just because something is in a contract... by Max+Threshold · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...doesn't mean it's enforceable, or even legal. Clauses that violate a person's civil rights are never binding, even if accepted willingly.

  38. One-way street by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What I think a lot of people forget nowadays is that the doctor-patient relationship is a two-way one. It should be based on trust, respect and honesty. There are always doctors who do not do as good a job as they should. It should be said that those who *willfully* engage in negligient activity form a very, very small minority. There seems however to be an expectation amongst certain patients for perfect health care at all times. No waiting times, 100% sure diagnoses and always effective treatments. Many people think that medicine is a precise science, which it is not at all. The reason I bring this up is because, due to these false expectations, many patients end up becoming frustrated and angry about their health care.

    I am a big advocate of free speech, but I think that sites dedicated to (often) bashing doctors, who due to their ethical and legal obligations are unable to defend themselves publically, lest they should sue for defamation, are not exactly something I would characterize as fair. People who bash others, knowing they cannot respond, are not searching for a dialogue or a solution, they are lashing out. And as it would be, ironically often it is the patients who never take their medication or follow their doctor's advice who get the most frustrated when their therapy doesn't lead anywhere and who, ultimately, end up venting on such forums.

    I think that part of a doctor's job is to listen to the patient's expectations and realistically put them into perspective, showing the patient the other side of the coin - namely what the medical reality is. Such websites *could* serve a very important role, supporting a productive dialogue between patients and doctors. This would however require those people's consent - their consent for their doctors' "free" speech, so to say.

    My 2c.

  39. Not gonna sign by russotto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If it's not an emergency, I won't sign such a form, and if the doc doesn't like it, there's others. If it IS an emergency, I'll sign, write the bad review if I get bad service, and argue about unconscionable terms later.

    If the state doctor's association convinces every doctor in the state, or my insurance company convinces all its member doctors, to require such a form, I'll post the bad reviews under a pseudonym. If they're going to collude, I'm going to cheat.

  40. When you don't have a choice by rossz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your company provides you with health insurance. The health plan is your typical HMO. You don't get to choose your doctor. This is not an unusual situation. So what options do you have if they insist you sign one of these things? Your choices are sign it or not get any medical help at all. And don't say you have the option of paying for your own medical coverage. Have you seen the price of private medical insurance?

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
    1. Re:When you don't have a choice by Overzeetop · · Score: 0

      Two things:

      1. You're not paying for your care, so you have less say in your treatment options. Welcome to socialized medicine.

      2. You can attempt to alter the terms - mark it up.

      3. Ask to speak to the doctor if #2 is rejected. Remember that you are taking billable time. Be polite but persistent.

      4. Go get a lawyer to review the agreement (you can take it with you without seeing the doctor), and find out your options for redress. You may be able to lodge a complaint with the licensing board and/or the insurer.

      5. Write your state legislator, or better yet stop by their office with a copy of the agreement and your problem and ask them to consider legislation limiting the practice. Technically they work for you. (please stop laughing).

      6. Contact the local TV station and express your concern. Let them contact the doctor for response; let them contact a lawyer for an interpretation; let them contact your local representative for their position.

      There are lots of potential avenues for addressing this sort of thing, you simply need to be creative, persistent, and professional about it. You may not get anywhere, or you may change things. In the end, if the doctor provides service which is harmful there are legal means of compensation. If the service is merely subpar, tell your friends and co-workers. There is a local pediatrician which most people I know won't see - they'll wait for another of the doctors to be on staff. The difficutly with primary care physicians is you have to catch a fresh-out that's good (i.e. get lucky) and hasn't filled his patient list out or b) hope that a good doctor has a bunch of patients die and gets openings in his patient list (i.e. get lucky), as all the good doctors generally have closed practices. The number of GPs is low compapred to the demand, and the money to be made in GP vs specialties isn't really attracting the masses. Sometimes you get what you pay for (I mean this in a statistical sense, not a anecdotal one).

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:When you don't have a choice by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      I know, bad form to self-reply. Just to clarify that when I typed "two," I was referring to a large value of two. Actually I'm going to claim that two refers to a bulleted list and a paragraph followup. Yeah.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    3. Re:When you don't have a choice by rossz · · Score: 1

      I pay for employer provided healthcare through my hard work, so I'm not getting it for free.

      With more and more businesses and websites adding funky clauses to their "contracts", suggesting I see a lawyer is starting to get out of hand. It won't be long before you have to sign a release just to use the bathroom in a restaurant. If that ever happens I'll probably pull it out and pee on the contract instead of using the bathroom.

      Yes, I do mark up contracts. At my last job I crossed out and initialed the health care contract part that said I couldn't sue.

      Re #5. If you don't want me to laugh, stop making jokes.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    4. Re:When you don't have a choice by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I pay for employer provided healthcare through my hard work, so I'm not getting it for free.

      This is a reason I'd like to see government mandated group status for individuals. I was drawn to Obama last summer because one of this thoughts on healthcare was to open up the FEHB (federal employees) group to all Americans. Now, don't get me wrong, the federal full-service plan is expensive - but it is very good, and there are some HDHP options (I think). I am an employer (a small one), and I provide benefits for my employees, but for a while I was on my own. My rates were good (great, really, but I was thirty-something and healthy), but any year I became too expensive for my insurer I could have been dropped. Give people group status with such a large group has benefits primarily for the consumer, but the federal market of 2M+ insured is too big a chunk for most major healthcare companies to write off entirely.

      If nobody got healthcare from their employers, and there were competition (as there is in FEHB) on the open market the system would be a bit more flexible. I don't think a single payer system will make healthcare better or more efficient. It's true that, to a certain extent, if you don't pay for top rate healthcare you don't get first rate healthcare. This is straying a bit for from the topic, as the ability to write reveiws or not does not (or should not) affect the rates you pay at the doctor's office, but it does speak to the breadth of choice. With more expensive coverage normally comes greater freedom of choice - which would allow you to vote with your feet. As with just about everything in life, the more you pay the more you can choose your path. I am not at the top of the money pile, so this is a bit of my own dogfood, but as mother used to say, "beggars can't be choosers." *shrug*

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:When you don't have a choice by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      You have no idea about socialized health care do you.

      I live in Australia and I can go to any doctor in the country as I wish.

      For GP's there is a co payment, of currently $10 for those who work, $5 for pensioners and unemployed, at some doctors. Fortunately they can also bullk bill and charge no copayment. (my GP does this).

      Public hospital treatment is free.

      It is most amusing that in this post you try to put down socialized medicine, when countries that have it do not suffer froom these kind of abuses.

      Futhermore, even when privately insured, you still get to choose your doctor AND the insurer has NO input to your treatment.

       

    6. Re:When you don't have a choice by rossz · · Score: 0, Troll

      It's one thing to have employment provided health care. It's part of the overall cost the employer expects to pay out to hire talent. It's quite another thing to ask me to pay for your health insurance.

      One of the reasons I was repulsed by Obama was his desire to implement national health care. After seeing what became of the UK system and where the Canadian system was headed, I wanted no part of that mess. Government waste, inefficiency, laziness, and uncaring all tightly wrapped around my ability to see a doctor? No fucking thank you.

      The cost to implement his plan is staggering. The country is already going bankrupt with his useless stimulus packages and bailouts. Have you been paying attention to how much money Obama as already spent? And he's just getting started.

      It would be nice if his programs worked. But they won't. In four years perhaps we can finally get a fiscally responsible government (I'm not suggesting Republicans since they spent just as much as the Democrats). I'm not holding my breath.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    7. Re:When you don't have a choice by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      You don't have to join Obama's pre-election plan. It just offers it, and subsidizes certain economic levels. It doesn't require you buy in. Note: you are already paying for others healthcare through income and payroll taxes, so it's not like this is something new.

      As for the spending, it's worth noting that the former president is responsible for 1/3 of the bailout/stimulus tab, and he was only involved for 3 months and then got to retire (with full healthcare benefits and a pension paid by the taxpayers, I might add).

      I say we simply create a 95% marginal tax bracket at the $500,000 level for financial industry workers with a mandatory 3 year lookback period, which automatically expires when the stimulus borrowing is paid off. They broke it, they should pay for it.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  41. What.... by Cormophyte · · Score: 1

    ...the f#*$.

  42. It proabably is... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    If it is an agreement, both parties must agree to the conditions. It could be argued that your modified agreement, which was a contingency of receiving services, was accepted when they rendered services. That is their only acknowledgment, as they do not sign the agreement and provide you a copy. You receive services or you don't. It is a weak agreement, but an agreement nonetheless. Since all parties may make changes, subject to approval, there is no wrong in making the change and initialing it. The only drawback is if you do not retain a copy of your change for your records, it may be contested - especially if they only retain a "signature" sheet and not the entire agreement from you.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  43. By Neruos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NDA's are not protected free speech, but private protected speech or copyrighted ideas, private practices or policies that you are agreeing to the terms of the NDA. People should really understand what freedom of speech really means.

    If you got a job at a company, they make you sign a NDA during your HR paper work. It states that you're not suppose to talk to anyone, including the media about what happens in the company and even when you leave you're not supposed to (sometimes they post time limits on this), that is where we get whistleblowers from.

  44. That old McDonald's story again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The coffee was so hot that it caused 3rd degree burns - Cooked flesh deep in to the muscle.

    The coffee was served **much** hotter that traditional.

    And the lid was not properly placed on the cup.

    If the coffee had been served a more traditional temperature the burns would have been merely uncomfortable.

    1. Re:That old McDonald's story again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And she still put a very hot coffee mug between her legs. Still very, very dump.

  45. Personal Experience with Feedback by bluehairedpete · · Score: 1

    My wife and I are expecting our first child, so we recently had to find an OBGYN. After working with a new doctor (who is great by the way) for a few weeks we came across this on ratemd.com:

    "several times while visiting her office, she had asked me if I wanted to sell my child into polish sex slavery. Indeed, I told her know. As I walked out of her office, there were several FBI agents serving a warrant upon her place of business. "

    I don't know whether to tell the doctor or spare her the stress, as I understand ratemd does not take down postings. Needless to say, we have yet to be propositioned :)

  46. Arrogance is lethal by jeko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    very good doctors that don't have excellent people skills, very good doctors that are jerks because they think they are so good

    There's a reason why "bedside manner" has been considered an important skill since Hippocrates. Until we have a Star Trek medical tricorder that can tell us ABSOLUTELY everything that's going on inside a patient's body, then you're going to have to rely on patient reports for much of your diagnostic information.If your people skills are so bad that you can't hear your patients, or you engender so little trust that they don't tell you what you need to hear, then you aren't getting the whole picture, and that by definition makes you a bad doctor.

    There's a reason why Gregory House works with four other doctors.

    Beyond that, arrogance in a physician is LETHAL. Arrogance makes you secure in your first conclusion. Arrogance makes you resistant to disproving your own hyptheses. Arrogance means you don't consider new information, or information that contradicts your first assumptions. I wouldn't be surprised to find out physician arrogance was a leading cause of malpractice suits.

    --
    He put his boots up on the table and made a face. "The sig," he smirked. "You can waste your life in search of the sig."
    1. Re:Arrogance is lethal by demonlapin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wouldn't be surprised to find out physician arrogance was a leading cause of malpractice suits.

      Well, consider it a contributing factor. It's actually bad blood between patient and physician that is the #1 cause of malpractice suits; sometimes that's rooted in an unreasonable physician, sometimes in an unreasonable patient or family. Also, the specialty makes a huge difference: in a general practice, there's a great deal more handholding required. I'm an anesthesiologist, and I have what I think is a pretty good bedside manner for my specialty. I'd be bad at family practice, but the qualities people seem to respond well to in anesthesiologists are the same things they want in airline pilots: a calm, unexcitable person you'd trust with your life (because you're definitely doing that). It's a good fit for me, but not for everyone.

    2. Re:Arrogance is lethal by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      OT question: As an anesthesiologist, are there extra steps or precautions you take for patients with sleep apnea? Does it depend on how much pressure their CPAP delivers? Thanks!

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    3. Re:Arrogance is lethal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow... I totally read that as pressure their CRAP delivers. I nearly blew a snot across the cube.

    4. Re:Arrogance is lethal by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      1) Yes and 2) Not too much. People with sleep apnea have airways that collapse when they're asleep. If it's hard for you to breathe on your own, it's going to be hard for me to breathe for you after rendering you unconscious. Furthermore, since almost all sleep apnea sufferers are overweight to obese, they don't do well when they're not breathing (we use a number of methods to increase the odds that, if we can't get the breathing tube in place, and can't breathe for you via the mask, you'll still wake up before you suffer any permanent damage - the reserves that make this possible are a lot smaller in overweight people due to pressure on the lungs by the abdominal contents pushing up). Depending on what we see, we might do anything from just having extra equipment handy, to putting you out in several stages, to putting the breathing tube down with you conscious (though lightly sedated) before knocking you out.

      The fact that you're on CPAP is usually enough to scare us. Do be sure to take your machine with you to the hospital for surgery.

    5. Re:Arrogance is lethal by Tuoqui · · Score: 1

      There's a reason why Gregory House works with four other doctors.

      And yet everyone is expecting their doctor to be House. Order a few tests and find out whats wrong and fix it in a 1 hour episode.

      --
      09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
      +2 Troll is Slashdot's way of saying groupthink is confused
  47. What a pile of crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    According to my own personal legal counsel (my wife), she says this is a pile of crap and is in violation of CSPA (Consumer Sales Protection Act). She hasn't passed the bar yet, but .... she did help drag out a new home purchase extra 6 months by making sure every i was crossed and t was dotted...

    =)

    But what do I know. I just try to keep my ESX cluster running and SAN from filling up with toy projects from the networking department...

    1. Re:What a pile of crap by Slumdog · · Score: 1

      by making sure every i was crossed and t was dotted...

      What a wife! Isn't that how all lawyers work?!!!!

  48. It's a psychological thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Posting a truthful negative review would validate what the patient knows, and what many consumers know - but who often ignore their own knowledge. They can keep ignoring it if not allowed to state the facts. There is no guarantee of good medical care, a diagnosis, proper or effective treatment, or even surviving medical testing or treatment. It is, however, pretty much guaranteed that any treatment requires payment regardless of the absence of satisfaction or performance guarantee. A dead patient is no reason for non-payment. Very little is required of the medical profession, but a great deal of money is required to pay these professionals.

    That said, I can't see a skilled physician with integrity requiring the patient to sign away his rights.

  49. It's only fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doctors are legally forbidden to put up reviews of their patients online... What about their first amendment rights?

    1. Re:It's only fair by Slumdog · · Score: 1

      Doctors are legally forbidden to put up reviews of their patients online... What about their first amendment rights?

      1. Someone must fix the healthcare insurance system before they can post reviews.
      2. A patient's information is only important for someone who wants to extract profit out of him/her. Not too many people are interested in you as a patient. But many would be interested in you if you're a doctor of something that they need help with.
      3. Patients outnumber doctors. Hence, an average number of reviews + lower standard deviation if patients write reviews of doctors.

  50. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  51. One word comes to mind by WeeBit · · Score: 1

    Anonymous

  52. No recourse for physicians by MagicDude · · Score: 1

    As a physician, I see no recourse that I could take if a patient decided to make a libelous statement about me. Someone could write something, but I couldn't write a rebuttal without violating patient confidentiality. Say someone posts something like "Dr. Magic_Dude was arrogant, rude, didn't address my concerns, and insulted me before throwing me out", I couldn't say "Just before this comment was posted, Mr. Johnson came to visit me as a new patient asking for Oxycontin. After discussion with his prior physician, I learned that he has a history of narcotics abuse, and has severe bipolar disorder. When I refused to fill his prescription, he stormed out of my office. He also required treatment for gonorrhea during his visit." Essentially, in order to defend your actions to the best of your ability, you would be required to break confidentiality. If anything, I would say physicians should change the contract saying that if you're going to start posting your medical encounters on the internet for all to see, then you waive your right to confidentiality and permit rebuttal by your practitioner.

    1. Re:No recourse for physicians by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      I'd consider that "waive rights to confidentiality" part completely reasonable. In fact, it should be part of the law right now. The doctor's not allowed to make the patient's confidential treatment information public, but if the patient makes it public the information's no longer confidential and the doctor's not bound to keep it confidential anymore. Though I would limit it to the matters the patient made public, things not related to those remain confidential. So the last part of your response about the gonorrhea would be out of bounds, the rest would be entirely legitimate since the patient brought it up in public first.

  53. Mount Sinai Md Cntr NYC docs & email hipaa wai by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another thing hospital/doctors are doing at Mount Sinai Medical Center and this may be a trend being repeated at other hospitals elsewhere, is through the doctors' offices at that particular hospital (Faculty Practice Associates) is they (I think the IT Department of Mount Sinai was mentioned somewhere in the release, or maybe it was their letterhead) are requiring patients to sign a separate form that (paraphrasing) states that your doctor may communicate your medical information from time to time to other doctors via email, the email is not encrypted/secure, and you agree they are not responsible if your medical information is leaked via the doctor's use of this communication method. While it's outrageous that this and most other hospitals are still using Microsoft operating systems internally (which can access and are therefore vulnerable to virus/keystroke loggers that haven't been detected yet by the AV vendors as one example). Another issue is they are trying an end-run around hipaa via a contract(if hipaa applies in the case of the issue of unencrypted email for medical info), which I don't think is possible (trying to avoid a hipaa violation through contract law) (hopefully).

    This is just one of many issues over tech and doctor/medical records. I had one private practice I went to for several years where my doctor admitted to me (we would discuss tech stuff whenever I visited) that the same practice that held my medical records and the thousands of other patients that visited the half dozen or more doctors at this facility had a part time IT administrator who was self taught in the Philippines and had set up the facility's network behind a linksys router (who knows when it's firmaware was updated), and one doctor at the practice signed onto and surfed through AOL every night. He admitted that they recently had a virus, the tech had trouble with fixing the network, and the virus was slowly deleting patient files (and he had no idea what else the virus was doing or if more than one virus was present on the network. This was about five years ago, with old computers (they were just updating their file server at the time, and from the specs my doctor told me they were ordering from Dell for their 25-35 daily users, only half a dozen or so billing employees, with the specs their tech was requesting from Dell, had the file server been loaded with Linux instead it probably could've handled thousands of daily users), the desktops (including the one the AOL surfing doc was using) were in most cases Windows 98.

  54. Sign away what? How does that work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Umm... The ability to "sign away" the right to free speech is actually within the domain of exercising free speech. I have the freedom to barter my silence (or speech, like a celebrity endorser) for properties or services, and doing so clearly constitutes a free act of will on my part regarding my voluntary use of the liberty of speech. I am not signing away my right. I am exercising it. By choice. I.e., not forced.

    An analogy. Say I buy a PC from a certain company with Windows pre-loaded, and doing so I get a discount or rebate so as the final price is less than the cost of buying the same PC from the same company without Windows (or with an alternative OS pre-loaded).

    Should I accept the discount, I am not being forced to use Windows. I am not being forced to save money. I am choosing to get the discount. I am therefore choosing to receive Windows pre-loaded. I am not signing away my "right to choose". I am using the right. The offer of their discount does not disqualify me from my ability to choose the PC without Windows. (And this is why the last two PC's I bought came with Windows XYZ, despite competing options.)

    Come on, people in computing industries should be more rigorous in their logic than this article...

    The number of people who want to review their doctors (and who are qualified medically or professionally to ascertain the adequate performance of their doctor anyways) is an irrelevant minority compared to the number of people who would just rather give the doctor a shot and move on to a second if it doesn't work out. My friends and family, the people I care about, all know my experience with incompetent health care, that's all that matters to me, and it would be theoretically impossible to enforce a waiver preventing that from happening. My insurance company double checks the physician notes, diagnostic codes, etc. anyways, and when they smell something foul the doctor backs down or falls in line anyways. The doctor loses the contract, or the bill is rejected and I am not liable, the doctor loses.

    Basically this is a pointless topic. We have solutions to bad doctors. Joe Sixpack's potentially deceitful and unverifiable online review is not the most proven one. I don't consider a crisis to digital age information freedom that Joe Sixpack would rather get his health care and not post reviews online, than not get his health care period...

  55. First line of defense: by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

    Read before you sign. I have refused to sign a small number of documents in my life, all of which would have restricted my rights. Second line of defense, find another doctor, then post comments about the guy who couldn't BEAR the thought of negative comments. And, when you inform him that you are finding another doctor, don't forget to salute him - with one finger!

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  56. Enforcement by snoopyjd · · Score: 1

    You can say what ever you want in a contract. The problem comes when you try to enforce them. Here what can the doctor do? The are not allowed to disclose ANY patient information, including the fact that a certain person is a patient. In order for them to send a take down order they would have to acknowledge that the person posting the comment was a patient.

    Sign the agreement, post something nasty and if they issue a take down or suit - sue them back and report them to the medical board. I don't think this will last too long.

    --
    LIVE, Love, die
  57. I can see by goldcd · · Score: 1

    that without that contract it's a little one sided.
    How about if you post a review of your doctor online you waive your doctor-patient confidentiality rights?
    You get to call him useless, he gets a chance to announce you're a paranoid sociopath.

  58. A contract for when you are sick? by houghi · · Score: 1

    Where I live I have never signed anything. I was in hospital, I was operated. All they did was explain some risks and rights. If they would have asked me to sign a waiver, I would have asked them if they intended to do a bad job.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:A contract for when you are sick? by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      I'm sure at least some of them are trying to protect themselves from self-diagnosed yahoos who demand whatever drug they saw advertised during Biggest Loser the night before, and go off on the poor doctor who refuses to validate their delusions of medical competence through watching House.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  59. The contract should speak for itself. by Anachragnome · · Score: 1

    If a Doctor drops such an agreement in my lap, I will be leaving the waiting room before I ever see him/her.

    Any Doctor THIS concerned about his reputation is surely NOT earning that reputation for being a GOOD Doctor.

    The GOOD Doctors have nothing to worry about, and thus, nothing to hide.

  60. Crazy Yanks by CmdrGravy · · Score: 1

    Only in America would you have to sit and read through contracts before seeing your Doctor !

    Wake up guys, can't you realise what an uneccessary madness this is ? It's time for you to bring your medical care back from the 3rd world into the 1st world and nationalise it like every other sensible has done.

  61. And government force enforces by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So if the government isn't allowed to breach your first amendment, they can't be used to enforce a contract to breach them either.

  62. So don't use the court to enforce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because the courts, jails, police and all that malarkey are government employees.

    Do without them and then you can ignore restrictions on government actions in a constitutional republic.

    PS What do you think whistleblower laws are? The Government acknowledging that a private company CANNOT always get away with voiding of constitutional rights.

  63. And the doctor has to pay you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or does that bit NOT get turned around...?

  64. !Censorship by BitZtream · · Score: 0, Troll

    Okay douchebags, stop tagging articles with 'censorship' where idiots give up their 'right' to do somethin.

    Censorship is when your rights are taken from you, not when you're a moron who signs things they haven't read and you agree not to exercise those rights.

    Contrary to what slashdot readers seem to think, not everything in the universe is about censorship. Stop abusing the word, you make the rest of us look bad.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    1. Re:!Censorship by shentino · · Score: 1

      I'd consider it effectively duress for them to refuse to perform medical services if you don't bow down to their wishes. If someone grabs you by the balls and forces you to accept their terms before they give you medical help you desperately need, where's the consent? They have just as effectively taken away your rights by holding your medical care hostage as if they had slapped you in irons and forced you to sign at gunpoint.

      This is compulsion, since medical care is, almost by definition, hardly a luxury. It's an essential good you cannot do without.

      Also, this damn well better not be binding in emergency situations where consent to be treated is implied.

  65. Good Luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I say good luck to the doctors. Just because you sign a contract does not mean you are going to follow it. Personally I would sign the stupid thing and feel perfectly free to review them. There is really nothing they can do about it. Are the doctors gonna sue me for breach of contract? They have better things to do than lose their tee-time because they have to be in court. At worst they can refuse treatment to me in the future.

  66. lack of objective criteria for evaluation by mkcmkc · · Score: 1

    My wife just had surgery this month, so I've been thinking about this some. I was a little surprised to see while looking up the address of the surgeon's office that Google had a number of user reviews on him--some good and mostly bad. Looking closely at them, I'd say that at least half were worthless (the authors were obviously unreasonable or ignorant), while the other half were of little value simply because they were unsubstantiated and there was no evidence that the author was in any way qualified to judge.

    I certainly agree that "nice" and "skilled" are two different things at best loosely correlated. A big problem in medicine, as with a great many other fields, is that there is little objective, public information that one can use to make judgements. Probably our grad school admission exams (GRE, MCAT, etc.) are the last time any of us has been seriously vetted, and even those scores are not public information. (And furthermore, test scores would presumably have only a medium correlation with ultimate quality.)

    There is objective evidence that as a group doctors in the US leave something to be desired. There was a recent NEJM study that indicated that in general they're only getting treatment about half right (as judged by expert scorers). In another study, adding a simple surgery checklist (the WHO checklist) cut patient fatalities in half. This would seem to indicate that medical quality is a lot more haphazard than we'd like to believe.

    --
    "Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
  67. yeah by Chewbacon · · Score: 1

    Ever read your consent for treatment? You're already signing your life away. What's your rights compared to that?

    --
    Chewbacon
    The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.