Slashdot Mirror


9 Browsers Compared For Speed and Features

notthatwillsmith writes "Counting public betas and release candidates, there are a whopping nine different web browsers out today with enough market share to be considered mainstream. Maximum PC explains the differences between the browsers, future and present, so that you can make a more informed decision about the primary tool you use to browse the web. From the rendering engines used to the features that set the different browsers apart, this is a comprehensive, blow-by-blow battle between Safari 3, Internet Explorer 7, Firefox 3, Opera 9.6, Google Chrome, Firefox 3.1, IE 8, Safari 4, and Opera 10."

363 comments

  1. 9 Browsers compared by slyn · · Score: 5, Funny

    And their conclusion is...

    There is no conclusion?

    FTA: "In our testing, the answer is no. However, we did notice a difference among browsers, just not as pronounced as the benchmarks indicate. Safari 4 and, to our surprise, Internet Explorer 8 felt the snappiest, though neither version of Firefox ever felt slow by comparison."

    They need to get someone with a backbone to say one is definitely better than the other, so that I can tell them that they are wrong.

    1. Re:9 Browsers compared by Panspechi · · Score: 5, Funny

      Can't we just be all wrong and get along?

    2. Re:9 Browsers compared by Tr3vin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Can't we just be all wrong and get along?

      No. How can we be all wrong and get along now that you made that statement? Sure, we could get along, but that would make you right.

    3. Re:9 Browsers compared by John+Courtland · · Score: 1

      The Reverse Rodney King Paradox?

      --
      Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
    4. Re:9 Browsers compared by DesertBlade · · Score: 1

      Should be modded insightful. It was like reading a movie review that didn't rate the movie.

      --
      Half of writing history is hiding the truth.
    5. Re:9 Browsers compared by ya+really · · Score: 5, Informative

      They also didnt bother to test how fast each browser rendered html either, which is just as important, if not more so than how fast it can render javascript.

    6. Re:9 Browsers compared by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 1

      My favorite film critics seldom or never rate movies.

    7. Re:9 Browsers compared by Slumdog · · Score: 1

      Can't we just be all wrong and get along?

      Yes, you are wrong. Neither am I.

    8. Re:9 Browsers compared by bar-agent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They also didnt bother to test how fast each browser rendered html either, which is just as important, if not more so than how fast it can render javascript.

      I disagree. HTML always renders fast enough. Slowdowns are from scripts and ads.

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    9. Re:9 Browsers compared by sevenfootchicken · · Score: 3, Funny

      The Reverse Rodney King Paradox?

      Chewbacca defense?

    10. Re:9 Browsers compared by supernova_hq · · Score: 1

      You can render javascript?

    11. Re:9 Browsers compared by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 2, Funny
    12. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. HTML always renders fast enough. Slowdowns are from scripts and ads.

      I disagree- I run with javascript OFF and some horribly buggy html saturates my CPU for tens of seconds while my poor browser tries to figure it out. Ebay pages- look at the code someday. Even slashdot- lots of html errors. I have my theories about it all...

    13. Re:9 Browsers compared by SeaFox · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They need to get someone with a backbone to say one is definitely better than the other, so that I can tell them that they are wrong.

      I know you're joking, but were you seriously expecting a solid statement anyway?

      I can't remember the last time I saw a scathing review of... pretty much anything. Companies have reviewers so scared of lawsuits for libel and their publishers have become such milksops, afraid they might alienate an advertiser, that nobody will say anything is bad anymore. There are only varying degrees of "good" now.

    14. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say we just get along with you!

    15. Re:9 Browsers compared by M8e · · Score: 3, Funny

      We can render it useless.

    16. Re:9 Browsers compared by digitig · · Score: 1

      More of an issue than not giving a rating is that they just quoted the acid3 scores. According to the Acid3 test, "To pass the test, a browser must use its default settings, the animation has to be smooth, the score has to end on 100/100, and the final page has to look exactly, pixel for pixel, like this reference rendering". I've just run it on Firefox 3.0.7 and it was very jerky, the colours final page were not the same as the reference rendering and there were spurious artefacts on the page. Just quoting the score is only a small part of the Acid3 picture.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    17. Re:9 Browsers compared by Stormwatch · · Score: 1, Funny

      "Reverse Rodney King" would be: NOT speeding while drunk, NOT resisting arrest, NOT STRIKING A POLICEMAN IN THE CHEST, thus NOT putting the other policemen in a situation where they had to use force; and of course, the sensationalist media NOT airing just a tiny excerpt of a video, making the cops look bad, rather than show the whole situation.

    18. Re:9 Browsers compared by daveime · · Score: 1

      Under what circumstances could 5 officers kicking the crap out of a suspect NOT be considered as "making the cops look bad" ?

      What they did was excessive, there can be no question in anyones mind. He'd already been tasered twice and presumably was in a weakened state. At that point, I'm sure they could have simply piled him and got the handcuffs on. Not attacked him with batons, and repeatedly stomping and kicking him for a couple of minutes.

      Still, some people have a pretty wierd view of the world.

    19. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am useless.

      --Yore A. Pendix

    20. Re:9 Browsers compared by Stormwatch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Under what circumstances could 5 officers kicking the crap out of a suspect NOT be considered as "making the cops look bad" ?

      The circumstances that make NECESSARY to kick the crap out of a suspect.

    21. Re:9 Browsers compared by flappinbooger · · Score: 1

      Their problem is that they are undoubtedly testing on a freshly installed sixteen core 20 GB ram 73.216 GHz machine running with liquid nitrogen. So, the differences in performance will be so hard to discern by human means there will be no conclusion.

      They as much said so - "just not as pronounced as the benchmarks indicate"

      Put them on a real world system, like those I run into daily - a sempron 3100 with 512 megs of ram, no patches, a healthy dose of spyware, a few corrupted windows files, and 28% fragmentation. And Vista. THEN, see which one is faster!

      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
    22. Re:9 Browsers compared by jefu · · Score: 5, Interesting

      HTML always renders fast enough

      I wrote a program a few years back that used a genetic algorithm to generate HTML. First I wanted to just see if it would crash browsers (which wasn't all that hard for the most part), but one of the things I used to score "genes" when there was no crash was the rendering time. Naturally enough, this led to long rendering times - even on relatively short (20K was the usual limit) files. Firefox once took almost 24 hours(!) to render a single such page, but the amazing thing was that it did not crash in the process. Perhaps I should dust that off again and try now.

    23. Re:9 Browsers compared by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      There never ever ever is such a reason!

      It's just you, justifying your criminally wrong behavior with the criminally wrong behavior of others. (Additionally you seem to be easily influenced by group think / peer pressure.)

      It's like saying that you can make something "Just OK (TM)" by imitating it.

      Well, I saw a guy, who had some similarities to you, getting killed. Should I imitate him?

      See. Very stupid idea.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    24. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the reverse of that.

      The Jar-Jar Binks defense? **shivers**

      ...

      captcha: mesquite

      What IS mesquite, anyway? I wonder if it's made from mosquitos...

    25. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HTML always renders fast enough if it only needs to render once, just like Javascript always executes fast enough if it needs to execute once. Javascript speed only becomes an issue if code needs to run repeatedly (like in loops or event handlers), but the same is true for HTML: If the HTML code changes often, like when Javascript dynamically changes it, then HTML rendering speed becomes an issue.

    26. Re:9 Browsers compared by stewbacca · · Score: 1, Troll

      there can be no question in anyones mind.

      The fact you are still arguing about it 18 years later disqualifies your statement.

    27. Re:9 Browsers compared by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      There's a huge difference between "rendering fast enough" and "feeling snappy to the user". It's like saying Windows and OSX boot up in 30 seconds, but with Windows you can't really do anything for another 45 seconds while the system tray stuff and services start up. Whereas I can boot up my Macbook, log in, get my email, and shutdown all before I have a usable Windows desktop...but they both take 30 seconds to boot up.

    28. Re:9 Browsers compared by akorvemaker · · Score: 1

      I disagree. HTML always renders fast enough. Slowdowns are from scripts and ads.

      Not always. Facebook on Opera 9.6 is painful to load, even with JS & plugins turned off.

    29. Re:9 Browsers compared by Peaker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a really cool idea, dude :-)

      Post the code somewhere!

    30. Re:9 Browsers compared by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Taking the discussion back about 10 years, end users don't give a rip about html-compliance (Acid3 for modern day, I suppose?). I love how they used to (still do) run those compliance tests on websites, and some of my favorite, daily sites end up as the biggest non-compliers. Uh oh, not HTML4 compliant, I better stop coming to this great website!

    31. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do u also switch off css too? and more importantly do you use the browser (or a plugin leeching on to the browser) to strip off the javascript. Do the sites you mention load a hell a lot of images?

      If so you might want to reconsider your theories.

    32. Re:9 Browsers compared by digitig · · Score: 1

      I certainly get irritated if a site doesn't render correctly, especially if it's a website I need and the website owner tells me to use Internet Explorer because it's been tested on that. Until it was integrated into the Transport for London website, the website for my local bus company (giving details or timetables and routes) omitted the trailing semicolon on all HTML character literals -- a Microsoft quirk that MSIE rendered as the intended character but Firefox rendered (correctly) as the # and the hex code. HTML-anything compliance would have fixed that.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    33. Re:9 Browsers compared by Emb3rz · · Score: 1

      Spyware AND Vista?

      Now I'm as anti-microsoft as the next slashdotter, but I think you may be selling Vista short. In my almost year-and-a-half of running Vista on my laptop, I've never had a brush with malware. Now, granted, I consider myself generally to be not retarded, and so that immediately heads off most malware attack venues, but I think there is still something to be said for Vista's security enhancements.

      Plus, if you can manage to get corrupted system files on Vista (it updates -constantly-), you're probably doing something way outside of the ordinary.

      As one final point, my default install of Vista has disk defrag running on a weekly basis. If you can still find a way to get to 28% fragmented then I do believe you have disqualified yourself in every way from being a good candidate for a benchmark - you are not representative of a typical demographic.

    34. Re:9 Browsers compared by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Oh, I get irritated too when stuff doesn't render correctly, especially when it was written to standard but the browser decides to ignore that. My problem is that testing something for HTML4 (or whatever) compliance doesn't ensure something will display correctly or not--it just lets geeks say "HTML4 Compliant(or whatever)". I've got plenty of favorite sites that don't stand a chance passing compliance tests, but they render well enough to not suffer usability issues.

    35. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, he did say 512 megs - Vista could still be booting.

    36. Re:9 Browsers compared by e2d2 · · Score: 1

      Your post was marked as funny but there is nothing funny about it. Only a fool would condone police brutality because someone broke the rules and hence "deserved it".

      BTW, have you actually watched the tape? Those cops made themselves and all other law enforcement officers look bad. Traffic stops like that happen everyday. What doesn't happen everyday is police beating someone so badly for no apparent reason other than to simply brutalize them because they questioned their authority.

      You know who deserves it? Insulated assholes like yourself. Perhaps it would change your perspective if someone gave you a little "shed therapy". See how you feel when your rational arguments get fist fucked by their cave man logic.

    37. Re:9 Browsers compared by centuren · · Score: 1

      Clearly what they should have done was kept the language non-committal throughout the review, and then have different conclusions, each one saying a different browser is the best, and display one per visitor based on the visitor's user agent. That way they make a definitive call on which browser is best, but Firefox users will read Firefox is the best, Safari users will read Safari is the best, etc.

    38. Re:9 Browsers compared by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      BTW, have you actually watched the tape?

      BTW, have you actually read about the events leading to it? You can check it on Wikipedia, but let me summarize:

      - Rodney King was drunk and speeding, two friends in the car; is spotted by police; refuses to pull over because a DUI would violate his parole.
      - CHASE ENSUES, SEVERAL POLICE CARS AND A HELICOPTER.
      - King's car is finally cornered; 5 policemen at the scene.
      - occupants told to lie on the ground to be cuffed. King's friends comply, taken into custody without incident.
      - King at first refused to leave the car; then did, but behaves bizarrely - giggling, patting the ground, waving to the police helicopter.
      - King grabs own buttock; policeman thinks he's reaching for a gun, draws his own and orders King to lie down.
      - King finally complies, policeman holsters gun.
      - policemen attempt to subdue and cuff King.
      - KING RISES, TOSSES POLICEMEN OFF HIS BACK AND STRIKES ANOTHER ON CHEST.
      - policemen fall back, King is shot with taser. Falls, rises, tasered again.
      - tape recording began here: KING RISES AGAIN AND CHARGES AGAINST A POLICEMAN; is hit on the leg with a baton.

      ...but only HERE begins the part of the tape that everyone saw on TV: a helpless, innocent black man being beaten by racist cops. But now you know it was not the case.

    39. Re:9 Browsers compared by minister+of+funk · · Score: 1

      You can haz cheezbrgr.

    40. Re:9 Browsers compared by e2d2 · · Score: 1

      That's funny how you cherry picked that whole event and then left out the part where the brutality occurred. I never claimed he was innocent. I claim he was treated brutally and unlawfully.

      "Powell, with three other officers, then repeatedly struck King with their batons, stomped on him and kicked him while he was on the ground for almost a minute and a half."

      So you are saying the beating was justified for a minute and a half after all of that? I stand by my statements, it was brutality meant to teach a lesson. They thought they were untouchable. They were wrong.

      I get so tired of people in the US that obey authority without question. Frankly, it's unpatriotic and the founding fathers would likely slap you right across the face, calling yourself an American. If you subscribe to the ethos that authority is justified to take such brutal actions to ensure citizenry compliance, then you sir are a coward.

    41. Re:9 Browsers compared by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      That's funny how you cherry picked that whole event and then left out the part where the brutality occurred.

      I did not cherry-pick, just summarized. What, I was supposed to copy the whole section from Wikipedia? The whole article, maybe? But I don't doubt you would find a way to say they cherry-picked the facts as well. And I did mention the scene, except it's only "brutality" if you IGNORE THE WHOLE DAMN CONTEXT.

    42. Re:9 Browsers compared by ScreamingCactus · · Score: 1

      See, your summary makes it perfectly clear: obviously he didn't feel like being pulled over at the time, so if the cops had just let him go instead of infringing on his right to not be pulled over (and thus violating his right to drive drunk), everything would have been fine... ...oh yeah, what were we talking about? Browser speeds or something?

      --
      The path to enlightenment is truly through homemade drugs!
    43. Re:9 Browsers compared by ScreamingCactus · · Score: 1

      So what happens when I visit the page in Linx?

      --
      The path to enlightenment is truly through homemade drugs!
    44. Re:9 Browsers compared by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wrote the post you responded to. The sites I mentioned were ebay and slashdot- you tell me- do they have a lot of images? Do they use heavy css?

      You make valid points. Of course, images are a factor, but that's to be expected and accounted for. CSS can be an issue too. My tests involved saving just the html to a local file, then seeing what happens when I load the file. Javascript causes the most CPU saturation, followed by css. But in some cases the html is so bad it seems to cause slow rendering and saturated CPU. I ran the tests with javascript off, images off, css off. YMMV.

      What I've seen is that IE seems to ignore a lot of html errors, like improper table nesting, generally messed up nesting, missing tags, you name it. Of course the rendered page may not be what was intended, but IE seems to buzz along. Other browsers churn and make a mess, or just churn. I used to do this testing with Netscape and sometimes it would just quit (usually after consuming all free RAM.) Poor thing- it tried.

      Since I didn't mention anything about my theories, you are making some major (errant?) leaps of logic to suggest that I "might want to reconsider [my] theories". You may want to reconsider sequential thinking. Just kidding- you're obviously bright, but no need to make leaps of logic, then tell me what to do. Is there no end to flamers?

    45. Re:9 Browsers compared by EricTheO · · Score: 1

      I'm perfect!
      I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken

      --
      -Eric
    46. Re:9 Browsers compared by centuren · · Score: 1

      So what happens when I visit the page in Linx?

      Do you mean Links or Lynx? In either of those cases, the page just displays praise of you directly, for being so hardcore.

  2. Whats with the Chrome tests? by dark+whole · · Score: 5, Insightful

    shouldn't v1 be in the current section, and the latest nightly be in upcoming?

    --
    CORPORATION, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility.
    1. Re:Whats with the Chrome tests? by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      shouldn't v1 be in the current section, and the latest nightly be in upcoming?

      They didn't use the latest nightly for any other browser, so that would hardly be fair.

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
  3. hmm by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

    So many engines ...

    --
    NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    1. Re:hmm by whoever57 · · Score: 5, Informative

      So many engines ...

      Or so many pages, so little time, so here is link to the "print" page -- one page with all the text and pictures and no ads.

      PS. Mods, if you are tempted to downmod this post as redundant because there is a similar post above mine in your listing, please check times of posting first.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    2. Re:hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      PS. Mods, if you are tempted to downmod this post as redundant because there is a similar post above mine in your listing, please check times of posting first.

      How did you know there was a similar post?
      I'm terribly confused...

      Oh, I see...
      You must be running firefox with the "oracle" plugin (affectionately known as the pre-post-preview) enabled?
      Or are you simply posting from the future?

    3. Re:hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For everyone interested in the plugin, this isn't it.

      I can't find a plugin with this functionality anywhere online. Maybe it is only compatible with Firefox 4?

    4. Re:hmm by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think he is afraid that so many people will post it as a reply to the FP (or something further up), by the time mods get to his post they will be tired of the suggestion.

    5. Re:hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it appears that my concern about being down-modded is true. I am not sure if this is just natural modding or if I have gained a enemy with mod points.

    6. Re:hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just so you know, I have given you full credit for posting the "print link" first. Now, go print out my comment, run upstairs, and put it on your parents' fridge with a magnet next to your drawings.

      Good job, sparky!

    7. Re:hmm by owlstead · · Score: 1

      It's not difficult to guess since there are *way* too many people posting in the initial thread. Once you've started up a new one with this kind of information, you can be sure there will be somebody else that posts it in the initial thread, even if it is off topic there. Buggers me as well, even though I'm frequently reminded that I'm no saint myself.

      Slashdot has a good moderation system, but it is still very chatty, and nobody waits until the end of a chat to join in.

    8. Re:hmm by meyekul · · Score: 1

      This isn't his first ball game.

  4. How could they miss Seamonkey? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How could they miss Seamonkey?

    I won't use a 'browser' that doesn't have an integrated WYSIWYG html composer. It's in the tradition of Netscape for browsers to also be composers. In the early days of the WWW, the vision was that people would be creators and communicators, not just 'browsers' in the spirit of cows on a feedlot. Blogs have replaced 'personal home pages' (PHP anybody???) but not completely. And the integrated Editor isn't just for creating sites. With Seamonkey, you can cut and paste off web pages to your local system in a fashion far more powerful than anything from Microsoft. Firefox is a gelded browser.

    1. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This post is tl;dr Summary: Seamonkey R0xx!

      Indeed, how could they miss Seamonkey? In my experience, Seamonkey is the best browser on every platform.

      When I first started building multi-OS compatible webpages, I decided I wanted them to be compatible with everything. That means...

      Windows:
      -Firefox
      -Seamonkey
      -Opera
      -Safari
      -IE6
      -IE7/8
      -GoogleChrome

      Linux:
      -Konquerer
      -Firefox
      -Seamonkey

      OSX:
      -Safari
      -Firefox
      -Camino
      -Seamonkey

      Seamonkey is the only browser with identical rendering across every platform. Firefox and Safari really failed, with small differences on each OS. Seamonkey was also the fastest at rendering, on every platform I tested. I was really surprised by that, as I expected Opera to beat it at rendering pages, and Chrome to beat it with javascript. (Chrome may be faster now - it was beta before)

      I tested on 3 systems before deciding Seamonkey was best:

      WinXP/Ubuntu
      VIA C7 Eden 1.2ghz
      512MB RAM

      WinXP
      Athlon X2 2.8ghz
      2GB DDR2-800

      PPC iMac (borrowed from a friend)
      OSX 10.4.8?
      PPC 2.53ghz?
      2GB DDR2-667?
      (can't recall exactly)

      Adding a hack to support IE6/7 would add a rendering anomaly in Safari. Fixing it in Safari would add one for Firefox(OSX only). Fixing that would result in Opera or Konquerer or some other webkit browser breaking.

      Finally I said screw it, re-did my CSS, and used tons and tons of div elements. The result looks like the code you get from Dreamweaver, but my pages finally display identically in every browser I test...

    2. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Malc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Oh how I fondly remember the Netscape and Mozilla Suites. A crash in the browser would lose that email I was researching for and been editting for the last two hours. Are the Seamonkey people still ignorantly working with a single process, or have they finally figured out that tight integration doesn't require a monolithic app? As for the composer... there would be a common standalone to bundle with Firefox, Thunderbird and Sunbird, but I guess there just isn't enough demand for it. I used Netscape and Mozilla suites for years, and only used the composer a handful of times, mostly in the mid- to late-90s when white personal pages with black text and blue anchors were all the rage. There are far better tools out there for HTML development than anything Netscape/Mozilla ever produced - even Visual Studio is a better starting place!

    3. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      saying you wont use a browser without a wysiwyg editor is like saying your wont use a cell phone without a swimming pool. wtf do you want that integrated into your browser for?

    4. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 4, Funny

      This post is tl...

      Sorry, that's about as far as I got before falling asleep.

    5. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seamonkey?? Their real crime was overlooking HotJava.

    6. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by binarybum · · Score: 1

      not to mention that while seamonkey still carries the mozilla/netscape "bloatware" rep, it runs better than any other browser on my older machine (933Mhz, 512MB SDRAM). I've found it to be snappier than firefox 3.x and I can run seamonkey mail and browse with multiple tabs with a much smaller memory footprint than if I simultaneously run firefox and thunderbird. Not to mention the startup time of seamonkey is quicker than the combined startup time of firefox + thunderbird. I know I'll get stoned for saying it, but the divorce of email and the browser was a travesty. The only shortcoming of seamonkey is that it is not modular/customizable with regards to the different apps in the suite - it would have a bigger market share if you could easily add/remove mail or composer post installation.

      --
      ôó
    7. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by DerekJ212 · · Score: 1

      Blogs have replaced 'personal home pages' (PHP anybody???)

      Just so no one gets confused, PHP the language has NOTHING to do with 'personal home pages', whatever those are.

    8. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      but my pages finally display identically in every browser I test...

      If that is what you want, serve .png files. For HTML, you should aim for "my pages finally display nice in every browser I test".

    9. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Must be a lot of fun, that html editor. Oh, looks like someone has modded me down on slashdot, hold on a second, tap tap tap tap, thats better, now I have a +50.

    10. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      Seamonkey is the only browser with identical rendering across every platform.

      There's your problem. HTML is about content, not about appearance. If you want something identical across every platform, use an image.

      The sooner you realize that everything isn't going to look identical across every platform, even if you try, with every browser, a lot less stress will be in your life (presuming you are a web developer). Well, a lot less stress if you can get your management and/or clients to understand and accept this as well.

    11. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by rJah · · Score: 0

      Finally I said screw it, re-did my CSS, and used tons and tons of div elements.

      Ditto!

    12. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by dtml-try+MyNick · · Score: 1

      When I first started building multi-OS compatible webpages, I decided I wanted them to be compatible with everything. That means...

      So.. you just uploaded some .txt files.
      Big deal..

      --
      Life starts at the end of your comfort zone.
    13. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by reashlin · · Score: 1

      Oi! Operas rendering is the same cross platform. Or for the sake of Seamonkey did you forget the Opera is actually cross platform...

    14. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think they test browsers nobody cares about.

    15. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by beegeegee · · Score: 1

      Finally I said screw it, re-did my CSS, and used tons and tons of div elements. The result looks like the code you get from Dreamweaver, but my pages finally display identically in every browser I test...

      Really? I have Dreamweaver 8 and it just creates tons of tables and paragraphs. I wish it did create Divs. I have to erase everything the non-techies I work with create with it and put in non-insane CSS. Unfortunately, tables are sometimes the only reasonable cross-browser solution.

    16. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PHP succeeds an older product, named PHP/FI. PHP/FI was created by Rasmus Lerdorf in 1995, initially as a simple set of Perl scripts for tracking accesses to his online resume. He named this set of scripts 'Personal Home Page Tools'. As more functionality was required, Rasmus wrote a much larger C implementation, which was able to communicate with databases, and enabled users to develop simple dynamic Web applications. Rasmus chose to release the source code for PHP/FI for everybody to see, so that anybody can use it, as well as fix bugs in it and improve the code.

    17. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by InverseParadox · · Score: 1

      I know I'll get stoned for saying it, but the divorce of email and the browser was a travesty.

      I wouldn't consider that a stoning-worthy offense - I stuck with Mozilla Suite for a very long time, and only switched to Firefox+Thunderbird when building a new machine (and after having gotten used to them on my work computers).

      I do have to disagree that the integrated mail-client and browser is inherently superior to separated ones, however, if for only one reason.

      When I ran Mozilla, if either the mail client or the browser hung or crashed or otherwise died (as happened not infrequently, most often due to either Flash or just ballooning memory usage), the other would be dragged along with it.

      When running Firefox+Thunderbird, if either of them hangs (common with Thunderbird on HTML E-mail for some reason - possibly one of my extensions) or crashes (hasn't happened yet that I recall), the other stays up and running just fine.

      I gladly trade the slight inconvenience of the less smooth functionality integration between the two for not losing the functionality of one just because the other is having a problem.

      --
      -- The Wanderer
    18. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed Seamonkey is very fast and also has really good memory usage. This has been true for quite sometime now. In fact I use it on gentoo which has USE flags to just compile the browser portion so you just have a really fast lightweight browser (without the mail client etc) which is what phoenix's, oh i mean firebird's, no i mean firefox's original goal was to be :)

    19. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seamonkey was also the fastest at rendering, on every platform I tested. I was really surprised by that...

      Isn't SeaMonkey using the same rendering engine as Firefox (Gecko). How could it be different results in rendering... just a thought. Do your homework better next time.

    20. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      How could they miss Seamonkey?

      I won't use a 'browser' that doesn't have an integrated WYSIWYG html composer. It's in the tradition of Netscape for browsers to also be composers. In the early days of the WWW, the vision was that people would be creators and communicators, not just 'browsers' in the spirit of cows on a feedlot. Blogs have replaced 'personal home pages' (PHP anybody???) but not completely. And the integrated Editor isn't just for creating sites. With Seamonkey, you can cut and paste off web pages to your local system in a fashion far more powerful than anything from Microsoft. Firefox is a gelded browser.

      These days, web sites often allow content contributions from its community of users without anyone ever having to open up a html editor. Content management through an interface comprised of web forms easily accomplishes this task in a way that's much easier for the average person to use. If you're going to write your own web site or web application today, you're better off using your favorite text editor or IDE than trying to weld the same thing onto a browser. From what I experienced in trying to use Netscape Composer back in the 4.x days, there's no reason for the two to be that tightly integrated, and no advantage to be gained from doing so that I can see... but I haven't tried Seamonkey. What makes Seamonkey so powerful, that you can't do with Eclipse/Visual Studio/EMACS/vi/notepad++?

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    21. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Yes, Opera's rendering seems to be identical now. It wasn't with v7 or v8, but v9 seems to be identical across platforms.

      But Opera annoyed me in other ways. Fixing Safari rendering issues would create new ones for Opera. Throughout all the changes, only Seamonkey rendered the page correctly(and identically) every single time.

      I tested about 40 different changes. It was a while ago, but for an example...
      -Spacers aren't working properly. CSS padding property seems to "add" in Firefox, but not on OSX. (width: 128px; padding-left: 32px; results in a 160px div on Windows, with 128px usable, but on OSX it's a 128px div.) (vertical spacing of 12px is either 0px, 12px, or 24px depending on the browser)
      -Replaced CSS padding and divs with tables of 12px height to appease IE6.
      -Safari is adding an extra line inside the tables, and ignoring table height; tried setting CSS line-height to 6px to match the table height. Seems to be working.
      -IE6 ignoring line-height. (good)
      -Firefox is correctly setting the table to 12px, and the (single) empty line to 6px, on Windows and Linux. On OSX, the table is just 6px, for some reason.
      -Opera sets the table to 6px because there's only 1 line of text, despite the table having css property "height: 12px;". Opera worked fine with empty divs with the height specified.

      etc. etc... it wasn't exactly like that, but I remember it was a pain getting it to work right. I finally just re-did everything in a standard way. (divs, exact width/height, left/top pixel offsets)

    22. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      Yeah, divs don't always work. Tables are definitely more cross-os cross-browser compatible.

      My point was, it has div after div after div embedded inside each other, to get the right offsets. :P

    23. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot lynx, links, elinks, and dillo, just to name a few. Dillo is still under active development, and at least one of the first trio are as well. SO you list is hardly "everything".

    24. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 1

      What makes Seamonkey so powerful, that you can't do with Eclipse/Visual Studio/EMACS/vi/notepad++?

      You apparently just scanned a little bit of what I typed.

      With Seamonkey, you can be browsing along on a site. You find some formatted content that you decide you want to grab a section of and save.

      Highlight the table/picture/whatever section that you want. Open up a composer window. Drag the highlighted content into the composer window. Do whatever fine touchup you want. Save the html file.

      Now, I suppose you can use 'view source' to pull up the HTML and copy it into Emacs if that's your thing. But you missed my point apparently.

    25. Re:How could they miss Seamonkey? by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 1

      I read that, but wasn't impressed. That ability isn't so all-powerful, and it need not be wedded to the browser. I can do the same copy operation in Firefox and paste it into my text editor of choice, and either paste it as html (with all the source markup intact) or paste it as plain text, into whatever editor I want.

      --
      You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  5. Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by bogaboga · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Internet standards are a known entity and have been so for a long time. Can somebody tell me why programmers of open source browsers decide not to code to standards? Why?

    Why then should we expect Microsoft to code to standards?

    1. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think its because standards are more like ideals, rather than limitations. You create a standard for technologies that no-one has really done yet, then hope that when browsers do implement the technology, they follow the standard. I think, for example, that the makers of opera created all the acid tests; and it took them a year or two after the standard was created for them to actually implement it.

      And then there _is_ Microsoft, which is a standard simply because it is a monopoly. The right question is, why should microsoft follow the standard of some competing company that they either don't care about, or want to loose, when they can easily make up their own standard? And patent it even!

      From a financial perspective, they shouldn't; and they don't. Anyway, what do I know.

    2. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by FlyingGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are joking, right?

      Which HTML standard, 4.x or 5.x which css standard, 2.0, 1.0 , which DOM version etc. etc. etc. said in my best Charley Chan voice

      These "standards" are a moving target and just when you think you have it right, some fucking pencil neck gets a hair up his ass and decides this one little thing needs to be changed, it is no small miracle that web even works at all.

      There are so many kludges in HTML/CSS/XHTML - pick a flavor of the month that it simply boggles the mind. Then there are semantic arguments that this is a "structure" element, not a "display" element and there for it should not be affected by CSS when the whole god damned point of CSS was to be able to change the look and feel of a page without changing the HTML building blocks.

      I would like to take most of then WW3 committee out and shoot them because far to many of them have their heads firmly up their ass so far that can;t tell shit from shine-ola.

      Those standard's as the exist need to be junked, take what is good about the them, and re-build it into something that approaches logical, rather then what we have no which borders on lunacy.

      If you were to take what currently exists and write the specs up with all the shit that has been crowbar'd into them and present it as a set of coherent specifications you would be laughed out of any standards body and told to go and bring something back that worked.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    3. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      Typical reply I get when I complain about a buggy page: "I don't know what the problem is, I tested on both Internet Explorer and Firefox!"

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    4. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

      If you look at market share of Opera which always follows standards and does ''hot patching'' via ua.js and browser.js, you can understand where that quirks mode comes from.

      Look to slashdot. All this work, thousands of new lines, Web 2 tricks, a userbase which is ready to beta test and file good bug reports. Where is the XHTML standards compliance? Guess the only site Opera literally chokes right after entering? Slashdot.

    5. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      amen

    6. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by meyekul · · Score: 2, Funny

      Charley Chan talked? 

    7. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by Pope · · Score: 1

      Because the standards themselves aren't 100% accurate or unambiguous. Look at the IE/Mozilla box model differences just as an example.

      When the standards don't spell everything out clearly, nothing can possibly match those standards.

      --
      It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
    8. Re:Why don't we have 100% conformity to standards? by BZ · · Score: 1

      > Can somebody tell me why programmers of open source browsers decide not to code to
      > standards?

      1) Some of the standards require things that make no sense.
      2) Some of the standards are self-contradictory.
      3) Some of the standards contradict each other.
      4) Some of the standards keep changing (e.g. if you implement CSS Generated Content per
              CSS2, it's buggy per CSS 2.1).

      Those are the obvious issues with the standards themselves. There's also the fact that a lot of the standards involved are really complicated and have no test suite, which means it's hard to tell whether you actually implemented it correctly. And even for simple stuff, people make mistakes sometimes.

      It's also very common to complain about imperfect adherence to drafts which are not yet standards (CSS 2.1, I'm looking at you).

  6. Express bus link for those who don't love ads by bobdotorg · · Score: 1, Redundant
    --
    __ Someday, but not this morning, I'll finally learn to use the preview button.
  7. Lynx? by Kainaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Am I the only one who noticed this story tagged with "lynx"? Sure. We all know that no browser renders pages faster and with less resource overhead than lynx, but it wasn't one of the browsers being compared.

    --
    The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
    1. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      pussy. real men use wget.

    2. Re:Lynx? by pseudonomous · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? What we *really* need some good solid benchmarks comparing links, links II, lynx, and elinks.

    3. Re:Lynx? by Ksevio · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not very good with javascript though, so they'd have to cut out all their benchmarks about javascript

    4. Re:Lynx? by hampton · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pussy. Real men telnet to port 80.

    5. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh.

    6. Re:Lynx? by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      I disagree completely Lynx performs the best with javascript, by not running it at all.

      You may be thinking of links2 which does have some javascript support, but not mine.

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    7. Re:Lynx? by kkrajewski · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pussy. Real men use emacs to email a URL to a daemon which emails back the web page, etc...

    8. Re:Lynx? by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      links, links II, lynx, and elinks.

      I use w3m, you insensitive clod!

    9. Re:Lynx? by reidconti · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who noticed this story tagged with "lynx"? Sure. We all know that no browser renders pages faster and with less resource overhead than lynx, but it wasn't one of the browsers being compared.

      Slashdot needs a "+5, Whoosh!" mod.

    10. Re:Lynx? by martin-boundary · · Score: 2, Funny

      Pussy. Real men hack the google servers and download all the web pages as a bundle for offline use when the net is down.

    11. Re:Lynx? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 5, Funny

      Real men write emacs to email a URL to a daemon which emails back the web page, etc...

      There, corrected that for you.

    12. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men netcat to port 80.

    13. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men open a raw socket.

    14. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men use /dev.

    15. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men write a kernel patch to expose the driver API to userspace and use that.

    16. Re:Lynx? by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men don't repeat jokes endlessly and actually get some.

    17. Re:Lynx? by 228e2 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pussy. Real men yell binary into their ethernet port.

      --
      Since when does being a Socialist mean 'someone who has a different opinion than me'?
    18. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men access the NIC in raw mode.

    19. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      How eloquent. I bow before your superior skills at being bitter about.. something..?

      And even though I should not feed you, I can't resist. I do actually get some. Do you? Or is that why you feel the need to rant about stuff which really does not hurt or affect you in the least? ;)

    20. Re:Lynx? by RichiH · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men morse in parallel on the ethernet leads.

    21. Re:Lynx? by A12m0v · · Score: 1

      I prefer w3m myself!

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    22. Re:Lynx? by esme · · Score: 1

      As a developer, I find my self doing this far more than I'd like. I've used proxies that dump headers and firefox extensions to view the headers and all that. But they all screw up other stuff or fail to work sometimes. So there's something really nice about $ telnet server 80 Connected to server. Escape character is '^]' HEAD /foo/bar?baz=quux HTTP/1.0 etc.

    23. Re:Lynx? by n+dot+l · · Score: 2, Funny

      Fuck you all. Real men use teams of butterflies .

    24. Re:Lynx? by reashlin · · Score: 1

      Dillo?

    25. Re:Lynx? by ozphx · · Score: 1

      Retards write emacs to email a URL to a daemon which emails back the web page, etc...

      There, corrected that for you :P

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
    26. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stallman writes emacs to email a URL to a daemon which emails back the web page, etc...

    27. Re:Lynx? by Simetrical · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men telnet to port 80.

      Using butterflies.

      --
      MediaWiki developer, Total War Center sysadmin
    28. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are no real men, only Chuck Norris.

    29. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually new a guy that could negotiate a connection with a 300 baud modem using his voice.

    30. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real men just EAT pussy, instead of having pussy arguments on /.

    31. Re:Lynx? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I bet you get your chicks with your hyperattractive ability to take jokes on the internet personally. I know that would make my panties melt.

    32. Re:Lynx? by lordtoran · · Score: 1

      Pussy. Real men print out TCP packages on paper and let a homing pigeon transmit them.

      --
      Want to hear the voice of GOD? cat /boot/vmlinuz > /dev/dsp
    33. Re:Lynx? by ozphx · · Score: 1

      I guess I was accusing Stallman of being a retard then....

      Funny how life has these little co-incidences don't you think?

      --
      3laws: No freebies, no backsies, GTFO.
  8. Origin of Webkit... by JustinOpinion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This statement from page 4 of TFA bugs me:

    Given that Apple gave birth to the WebKit rendering engine, it would make sense the company knows best how to rev it up.

    It may be true that Apple started the Webkit project, but they did so by forking the KHTML codebase. Saying that Apple "gave birth" to WebKit is stretching the truth. It implies that they created it from scratch, when they didn't. Many other people put in a tremendous amount of work to create the foundations upon which WebKit was built.

    A nitpick, perhaps. But it bugs me that the contributions of the KHTML team are being forgotten.

    1. Re:Origin of Webkit... by tangent3 · · Score: 1

      KDE gave birth to the KHTML, no one ever heard of KHTML outside of the small town called KDE where he was borne.

      Apple adopted KHTML, renamed him to Webkit and made him a world wide poster child.

      Better?

    2. Re:Origin of Webkit... by Miseph · · Score: 1

      There's a joke in there involving Steve Jobs, abortion and scat. Several, in fact. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to imagine the psychologically scarring porn troll I am simply too lazy to write.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    3. Re:Origin of Webkit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Slashdot men need to get laid more often. I've lost count of how many times I've read the word "porn" on this site in the last few hours.

    4. Re:Origin of Webkit... by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      Saying that Apple "gave birth" to WebKit is stretching the truth. It implies that they created it from scratch,

      Well, no, actually, saying "gave birth" does, in fact, imply that they got some of the original generic seed from another source.

    5. Re:Origin of Webkit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Slashdot men need to get laid. I've lost count of how many times I've read the word "porn" on this site in the last few hours.

      There, fixed that for you

    6. Re:Origin of Webkit... by jonas_jonas · · Score: 1

      Well, no, actually, saying "gave birth" does, in fact, imply that they got some of the original generic seed from another source.

      It was a short but hot love between him, Konqui, and her, the bitten fruit from Cupertino.

      But after she was pregnant, she left the guy, giving their kid a new name, so noone could see anymore, who had planted the seed in her.

      But later the man saw, that his child was growing so well - so he tried to forget, that she left him all alone in the cold, and decided to adopt his own child again.

  9. You idea gave us MySpace by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This idea of people making their own sites is what gave us myspace and the like. So sorry, but for the good of humanity and to stop your idea you must be shot. It is for the best.

    Also, this function has been taken over by wysiwyg javascript editors in the website itself which is a reason the next bullet will go to the guy who thought this up.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:You idea gave us MySpace by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also, this function has been taken over by wysiwyg javascript editors in the website itself which is a reason the next bullet will go to the guy who thought this up.

      That would be the "contentEditable" attribute. That's - ha! - Microsoft.

    2. Re:You idea gave us MySpace by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It's also what gives us things like Wikipedia.

    3. Re:You idea gave us MySpace by anaesthetica · · Score: 2, Interesting

      this function has been taken over by wysiwyg javascript editors in the website itself

      Or, more generally, on the web itself. For example, see the new Mozilla Labs project, Bespin.

  10. IE7 Rules! by filesiteguy · · Score: 1, Funny

    Well, according to the website, I should be using IE7, since it is the fastest browser. I can see myself using it, instead of this pokey firefox 3.0x. In fact, I suspect I'll type this poast much faster under IE7.

    Um, anyone know where the Linux version of IE7 is?

    1. Re:IE7 Rules! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IE7? Dude, no way! It's still practically in beta! You should stick with good old, proven IE6!

    2. Re:IE7 Rules! by buchner.johannes · · Score: 2, Informative

      Um, anyone know where the Linux version of IE7 is?

      It is here: http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    3. Re:IE7 Rules! by pseudonomous · · Score: 1
    4. Re:IE7 Rules! by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

      Oh, no! I got given a flamebait score. Bummer. I was kinda hoping for troll material.

      Better luck next time!

    5. Re:IE7 Rules! by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

      AFAIK, ies4linux only covers 6.0 - unless something's changed.

      I use it on occasion, particularly when I need to load those evul ActiveX controls, like at work:

      http://www.perfectreign.com/stuff/2008/20081205_ie6_yoda_ii_ponte.jpg

    6. Re:IE7 Rules! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Click the link.

    7. Re:IE7 Rules! by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

      Sigh... ....you mean, the one that leads you eventually to a page stating the following about IE7 support not working...?

      IE 7 engine (beta support)

              * GIF images are not displayed correct
              * Https sites do not work
              * Crashes a lot
              * Options dialog does not open (see this hack to avoid this problem)
              * Flash does not work
              * ActiveX does not work
              * Cookies does not work
              * Few rendering bugs like this
              * javascript:alert() does not open
              * Find dialog does not open (Ctrl+F)

    8. Re:IE7 Rules! by A12m0v · · Score: 1

      Wine since 1.1.14 is able of running IE7. You'll need a whole lot of hacks to make it work. Better just grab the latest PlayOnLinux as it has a script that will automate everything for you. I personally tested it, it works but crashes randomly and generally sluggish. Pretty much as it is in Windows.
      http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=4195

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    9. Re:IE7 Rules! by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      Yes, they call it IE7. :-P

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
    10. Re:IE7 Rules! by filesiteguy · · Score: 1

      LOL!!

  11. Troll? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He is simply stating the truth. Webkit is a fork of an existing project. Apple did NOT create webkit from scratch. Of course, that is not a bad thing, in fact it is one of the goals of opensource that you can take existing projects and modify them for your own needs BUT it is usually considered nice if you mention this. Apple sure as hell ain't advertising it loudly and sadly a LOT of people on the net seem perfectly happy to ignore it.

    It also shows that Apple doesn't exactly return the favor because Safari is not available for Linux. So they used opensource code but do not contribute in the full spirit of opensource.

    No law that says they should, but it is important to remember that the only difference between Bill Gates and Steve Jobs is that Bill was succesful in being a monopoly. If the 'success' had been reversed things wouldn't be all that different and perhaps even worse (who do you think is in bed with the media companies more. Bill "MSN" Gates or Steve "Disney" Jobs? Though call)

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Troll? by pseudonomous · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, Konqueoror has adopted the webkit engine, and I believe Epiphany can be compiled to use webkit as a backend, and then there's also Arora, another cross platform browser using the webkit engine. So the webkit engine, at least, is getting used back in the linux world.

    2. Re:Troll? by indiechild · · Score: 1

      Huh, I'm not sure what you're getting at?

      Someone could make another Webkit browser that runs under Linux, why does it have to be Safari? Safari is not Webkit, and Apple never promised to make Safari open source and available on multiple platforms.

    3. Re:Troll? by lbbros · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, Konqueoror has adopted the webkit engine,

      Blatantly false. KHTML is still under development and it is still the default engine in Konqueror (though there's an alpha-version WebKit part).

      --
      A CC-licensed illustrated horror novel
    4. Re:Troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can make your own browser http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/demos-browser.html

    5. Re:Troll? by Darth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Webkit is a fork of an existing project. Apple did NOT create webkit from scratch.

      true. The original poster shouldn't be marked as a troll for saying that. This is a self-correcting issue. he is currently marked +4 insightful.

      Of course, that is not a bad thing, in fact it is one of the goals of opensource that you can take existing projects and modify them for your own needs BUT it is usually considered nice if you mention this. Apple sure as hell ain't advertising it loudly and sadly a LOT of people on the net seem perfectly happy to ignore it.

      You can't make a list of rules then go "oh yeah, this would be cool too, but it's optional". and then get pissed when someone adheres to all of your rules but chooses not to do the optional one. If you don't want it optional, make it part of the license. They're not assholes for not doing more than is required of them.

      This argument seems a bit hypocritical coming from someone who chooses not to use the Gnu/Linux moniker in his next sentence.
      (yes, i'm aware linux is not a fork of a gnu kernel project. the point is that the essence of Stallman's argument for that term is the same argument being made here.)

      It also shows that Apple doesn't exactly return the favor because Safari is not available for Linux. So they used opensource code but do not contribute in the full spirit of opensource.

      Apple returns all of their modifications to webkit back to the open source project. They are under no requirement, morally or legally, to provide a linux safari. The essence and full spirit of open source is for the source to be available so that if someone desires to port it to linux they can do so. That spirit has been satisfied.

      I had more written here but your last paragraph is so irrelevant to the subject, i decided to delete it to avoid distractions.

      --
      Darth --
      Nil Mortifi, Sine Lucre
    6. Re:Troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also shows that Apple doesn't exactly return the favor because Safari is not available for Linux.

      When did "make it run on Linux" become a requirement to fulfil your obligations under an Open Source license? If it helps, Webkit is now one of the most portable, and most ported, rendering engines available and runs on a whole bunch of different, small, Open Source OSes such as Syllable, Haiku and AROS. Webkit has also been ported, or is in the process of being ported, to run on Qt, GTK+ & Wx.

      If you think Webkit == KHTML then you're very much mistaken: KHTML is so heavily tied to KDE & Qt it's almost impossible to port (I can think of one and only one example, and that was done by basically faking a Qt 3 layer around KHTML!). Apple did the hard work of making KHTML portable, and they did a damn fine job of it!

    7. Re:Troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the other hand, Konqueoror has adopted the webkit engine

      No, it hasn't. There was a (IIRC proof-of-concept-style) webkit kpart at some point (I don't know if it still is being worked on, I myself have never seen it), but Konqueror still uses, and will continue to use, the original KHTML engine.

      You might want to read http://blog.froglogic.com/2007/10/the-khtml-future-faq/

      (Posted as AC since I have mod points used on this article.)

    8. Re:Troll? by A12m0v · · Score: 1

      Konqueror 4.2 gives me the choice to switch between KHTML and WebKit.
      KDE hasn't and probably wont abandon KHTML, but they are sure using WebKit, for example in Plasma (Widget Engine). This allows me to use OS X Dashboard widgets in KDE.

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    9. Re:Troll? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple returns all of their modifications to webkit back to the open source project. They are under no requirement, morally or legally, to provide a linux safari. The essence and full spirit of open source is for the source to be available so that if someone desires to port it to linux they can do so. That spirit has been satisfied.

      Only thing is, Safari is not done in the open-source spirit. The source for Safari is not available. The HTML engine and Javascript engine are but not the Safari browser itself. So it can't be ported to Linux even if you wanted to.

    10. Re:Troll? by Draek · · Score: 1

      You can't make a list of rules then go "oh yeah, this would be cool too, but it's optional". and then get pissed when someone adheres to all of your rules but chooses not to do the optional one. If you don't want it optional, make it part of the license. They're not assholes for not doing more than is required of them.

      What does legality have to do with being an asshole? seriously, doing a "yo mamma" joke is perfectly legal (free speech and such) but it's still an asshole thing to do, and advertising a product without mentioning the volunteers that wrote 90% of it is pretty much the same thing to many of us.

      They are under no requirement, morally or legally, to provide a linux safari. The essence and full spirit of open source is for the source to be available so that if someone desires to port it to linux they can do so. That spirit has been satisfied.

      Only for Webkit, not Safari itself which is what the GP is arguing about. And he's talking about morality, we all know they're legally allowed not to give a fuck. Still, even in that case I'd complain to Google instead, at least they've got a browser worth porting over. Asking for Safari on Linux is like demanding Emacs on the Wii: an excercise in pointless masochism.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
  12. Firefox logo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Their opening graphic uses the old style Firefox logo - odd that it was the first thing I noticed... Odd that they'd test 3.1 and use the icon from 1.0.

  13. Different OS by rtb61 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It is a shame they did not do Firefox on Linux, Firefox on windows XP and Firefox on windows Vista, all on the same hardware. It would have been interesting to see how the underlying OS affects the performance of the browser. Then further compare IE on Vista vs Firefox on Ubuntu.

    With netbooks final end user experience is driven by the application on top of an OS and the interface that is used access and control that application.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    1. Re:Different OS by iris-n · · Score: 1

      To be completely fair, the should have done it to every major browser in every major OS. So its 9*3 = 27 analyses. Then if you wan to cross-compare them, its 27c2 = 351 analyses. So no, thanks, I'm not that idle.

      --
      entropy happens
    2. Re:Different OS by quantum+bit · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is a shame they did not do Firefox on Linux, Firefox on windows XP and Firefox on windows Vista, all on the same hardware. It would have been interesting to see how the underlying OS affects the performance of the browser. Then further compare IE on Vista vs Firefox on Ubuntu.

      While hard numbers would be useful, it's painfully clear to anyone who's used it on both platforms that Firefox on windows is far faster than Firefox on linux. Try opening a bunch of tabs and see how sluggish it is on linux to switch between them or close one.

      Personally, I blame GTK2's obsession with double buffering everything. I recall GTK1-based seamonkey builds being quite a bit faster than Firefox when they first switched FF over to GTK2. Of course you'd be mad to even install GTK1 these days, but the performance issues really need to be addressed. If I could get Konqueror without all the KDE baggage I would, for the brief time I used KDE it was always snappy and responsive.

    3. Re:Different OS by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ``If I could get Konqueror without all the KDE baggage I would, for the brief time I used KDE it was always snappy and responsive.''

      I run Konqueror as the sole KDE app on my machine. On Debian lenny, the disk space used is a bit larger than for Iceweasel (nee Firefox), but the lower memory usage and a couple of useful features (especially web shortcuts and access keys) make it worth it to me. I still have Iceweasel installed for a number of sites that don't work well in Konqueror, though.

      As for Firefox being slower on Linux than on Windows, I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with latency of calls to the X server. Many X clients don't really take X's characteristics into account, and perform a lot of serial, blocking requests, causing long delays. Apps that reduce the number of requests that wait on one another (by either reducing the number of requests, or by doing them in parallel) can be really snappy on X. But, as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if Firefox weren't using X right.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:Different OS by dominator · · Score: 1

      Personally, I blame GTK2's obsession with double buffering everything.

      Clearly, the Mozilla developers just forgot to call 'gtk_widget_set_double_buffered(false);'. That's what's been gumming up the works. Much appreciated, and thanks for your informed opinion on the matter!

    5. Re:Different OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firefox doesn't use X directly, it uses GTK2 which in turn does the real calls to X. So i would call for GP's explanation on this (very real) issue.

    6. Re:Different OS by DaFallus · · Score: 1

      While hard numbers would be useful, it's painfully clear to anyone who's used it on both platforms that Firefox on windows is far faster than Firefox on linux.

      Not only that, but some of the buttons are in different locations, the Options menu is accessed through the Tools menu in Windows and Edit menu in Linux (and OSX). Also, in every version of Linux I have run Firefox on it for absolutely no discernible reason takes at least 5 minutes of "Waiting..." before it will start downloading an extension or extension update.

      --
      No one cares what your captcha was

      Houston TX, USA
    7. Re:Different OS by onefriedrice · · Score: 1

      I believe you are correct. Every time I track down a performance issue on Linux in a multi-platform GUI program, it always goes all the way back to X11 itself.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    8. Re:Different OS by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      While hard numbers would be useful, it's painfully clear to anyone who's used it on both platforms that Firefox on windows is far faster than Firefox on linux. Try opening a bunch of tabs and see how sluggish it is on linux to switch between them or close one.

      Personally, I blame GTK2's obsession with double buffering everything.

      Gah! This has been explained over and over. Have you just not been paying attention? Firefox on Windows has been, for some time now, optimized using profile guided optimization. The same isn't true for Firefox on Linux for various reasons (I believe related to the compiler, but I'm not actually sure... someone more knowledgeable in the details can feel free to step in, here). But FF on Linux, compiled with PGO, is every bit as fast as FF on Windows (and FF 3.1 will be compiled for Linux with PGO on by default, AFAIK).

    9. Re:Different OS by quantum+bit · · Score: 1

      Yes, more likely it's GTK that's using X inefficiently. Especially since almost any program that uses GTK feels "slow". The more complex the widget usage, the worse it is. Compare to say, Qt apps, on the same hardware.

      Before someone says it's local, no, this isn't a configuration issue. I've noticed this across many different platforms (FreeBSD, various linux distributions, HP-UX, etc etc.) on a variety of hardware.

    10. Re:Different OS by quantum+bit · · Score: 1

      Clearly, the Mozilla developers just forgot to call 'gtk_widget_set_double_buffered(false);'. That's what's been gumming up the works. Much appreciated, and thanks for your informed opinion on the matter!

      Sarcasm aside, that's just a single example of the myriad of inefficiencies in GTK. Especially in light of compositing window managers.

    11. Re:Different OS by quantum+bit · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with PGO, and I really wish people would stop pointing fingers at it when the performance difference is brought up on the mozilla lists.

      This has been going on for far longer than PGO has been enabled on the Windows builds. PGO may have increased the gap a little, but not that much.

      There was a time around when GTK2 was first released that Seamonkey could be compiled against either. The difference was especially obvious then. I'm sure GTK2 has been improved since then, but compare it to Qt-based browsers on the same hardware and see for yourself. Most of the perceived slowness comes from interacting with the UI components, not rendering speed.

    12. Re:Different OS by BZ · · Score: 1

      For what it's worth, we _did_ look into this pretty carefully at some point... Most of the XSync calls that happen now in Gecko are done by GTK2 itself. Not much we can do about those. :(

      What would really help Linux performance compared to Windows a good bit if g++ managed to produce code anywhere near as good as what MSVC++ produces.

    13. Re:Different OS by dominator · · Score: 1

      Not so much. You probably don't find Qt to be too inefficient, but Arthur does double buffering by default too. And for good reason.

  14. because the standards are a bitch by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can somebody tell me why programmers of open source browsers decide not to code to standards? Why?

    The standards can be a bitch. Not just a bitch, but a major bitch. Standards at their best are forward looking and interesting because they are stated without much thought as to how they would actually be implemented and part of the problem is figuring out how too implement them.

    In a perfect world, yes, you could go and code something completely to a standard, but a turn of a phrase could blow a design. Then you have to backtrack, re-implement, and repeat the process. You could go for years without a release and one thing that the world shows is that someone who implements most of the standards and delivers on time is better than the guy who is perfect with them. Indeed, quite often, shipping "enough" of a standard is quite often cause for a midcourse correction in the standard itself.

    HTML isn't the only culprit here, but it stands out to end users because it is as prevalent as it is comparatively complex. C++ itself relies very heavily on standards and even with numerous holes to allow for vendor implementations, it took years to get good implementations of C++.

    Why then should we expect Microsoft to code to standards?

    The basic simplistic explanation is that Microsoft recruits what it feels are the best programmers from the best universities and has in the past been willing to invent some rather complicated products and forward looking designs. One asks Microsoft to comply with standards, because, if anyone could be able to, they would, and that, in some circles, is sort of thing a responsible leader of the computing community should do. They are members of these standards bodies, after all, and as such, -agreed- to them.

    But, Microsoft is just as prey to the backtrack problem as anyone else, and having all those brains can sometimes mean that when they do have to backtrack, they have to do it spectacularly. That is, the degree to which you have to backtrack in a design tends to raise the costs of modifying your product significantly, and its likely that even they cannot resolve some issues in a timely fashion.

    Of course, in the case of IE, they damn well could, but have chosen not to. For them IE is a problem. If they spend money on IE, they might well lose it all because the EU and other anti-trust bodies might well make them give it away or discontinue it or, something. And, until recently, IE has been "good enough for government work". But, with Firefox really coming on, and Google Chrome showing so much promise, now IE8 looks like Microsoft is to re-engage.

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:because the standards are a bitch by fatp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that microsoft breaks the standard. This not only makes itself incompatible with those compliant to the standard, but also makes those compliant to the standard incompatible with microsoft products.

    2. Re:because the standards are a bitch by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Standards at their best are forward looking and interesting because they are stated without much thought as to how they would actually be implemented and part of the problem is figuring out how too implement them.

      That's absolutely false, of any good standard.

    3. Re:because the standards are a bitch by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree, web standards are painfully difficult to implement. Just think about what it would take. It starts with 3 languages (HTML, CSS and JavaScript) that all have different syntax. Even if you'd pull that off, you'd end up with an unusable browser, because it wouldn't be compatible with all the broken HTML out there. And then you need plugins, or the kids won't be able to use their dear Youtube. By the time you have all that done, the standards will have evolved. Meanwhile, meticulously implementing the standards gains you very little, because actual web pages don't use them, or only use them to a very limited extent. The reason? Many people who make web pages don't know any better. Or the tools they use don't know any better. And even those who do are limited by what Microsoft Internet Explorer supports.

      In the face of all that, I'm happy to see that we're still _trying_ to be standards-compliant and pushing for others to do the same. Standards are the only way to interoperability. Interoperability is what gives us freedom to use the software we prefer.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:because the standards are a bitch by Waccoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It doesn't help that some standards were based on other standards and then broken. HTML was syntactically incompatible with SGML on purpose to make it "easier" to use. The most notable example is the fact that early in the HTML standard, you didn't have to close paragraph elements.

      When you create something with built-in gotchas, of course parsing it correctly is going to be a problem. It continued to be for years until XHTML finally came around, but that still has its own design faults. Many web sites (including my own site which I haven't updated in years) still use the old, broken, but "standards compliant" HTML spec.

      Personally, I think the whole WWW was b0rked from the beginning, and even the new browser wars aren't going to straighten it out in the foreseeable future. JavaScript imported from a 3rd party web site through an ad has all the same privileges as your own site's code? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Thanks, Netscape.

    5. Re:because the standards are a bitch by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      [......] early in the HTML standard, you didn't have to close paragraph elements.

      Early in the HTML standard, 'p' tags didn't refer to paragraphs at all - they signified paragraph breaks.

      Not long ago i dug up a page i wrote back in about 95, which is archived in the WayBack Machine, and i was really surprised to find i'd only put 'p' tags between paragraphs - and not at the start of them. Checking the HTML 1 standard (it wasn't called "1" though) it seems that this was the correct way to write HTML back then. I'd forgotten completely.

    6. Re:because the standards are a bitch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've worked with with a number of standards anc can guarantee that none of them were "good". The scale of implementability is more like "horrible--passable".

    7. Re:because the standards are a bitch by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      HTML was syntactically incompatible with SGML on purpose to make it "easier" to use. The most notable example is the fact that early in the HTML standard, you didn't have to close paragraph elements.

      How is that breaking SGML? From what I remember, SGML did provide the ability to specify in the DTD that a specific element is treated as self-closing, and HTML simply used that ability.

    8. Re:because the standards are a bitch by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      HTML was syntactically incompatible with SGML on purpose to make it "easier" to use. The most notable example is the fact that early in the HTML standard, you didn't have to close paragraph elements.

      You still don't have to close paragraph elements, even in the SGML-formalised modern HTML specifications. This is not an incompatibility with SGML at all, as SGML allows markup languages to have element types that do not require end tags. Perhaps you are thinking of XML, which arose a long time after HTML?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    9. Re:because the standards are a bitch by InverseParadox · · Score: 1

      Early in the HTML standard, 'p' tags didn't refer to paragraphs at all - they signified paragraph breaks.

      Eh? I was under the impression that that was still the case, and had never been suggested to be otherwise. I seem to remember having learned that originally from the O'Reilly "Definitive Guide" to HTML 3 (along with most of the rest of my understanding of the basics of HTML)...

      And really, if the <p> tag had been intended to delimit paragraphs as such, it would make no sense at all to have it be a standalone self-closing tag rather than pair it with </p>.

      --
      -- The Wanderer
    10. Re:because the standards are a bitch by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Eh? I was under the impression that that was still the case [......]

      No, it's not. The <p> and </p> tags delimit a paragraph - which is a semantic unit. The paragraph break is only something that's implied by having two consecutive paragraphs - it's not actually marked, as such. Of course, the end tag is only required in XHTML - it's optional in HTML, but is implied by the opening tag of any element that follows it.

      And really, if the <p> tag had been intended to delimit paragraphs as such, it would make no sense at all to have it be a standalone self-closing tag rather than pair it with </p>.

      You're right, it doesn't. And i've never seen such a thing. You're not thinking of <br />, are you?

    11. Re:because the standards are a bitch by mahadiga · · Score: 1

      Can somebody tell me why programmers of open source browsers decide not to code to standards? Why?

      Implementing standards in Closed source software is Oxymoron.

      --
      I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga
    12. Re:because the standards are a bitch by InverseParadox · · Score: 1

      No, it's not. The <p> and </p> tags delimit a paragraph - which is a semantic unit.

      In HTML as I learned it - as I said, roughly the HTML 3 era - there was no such thing as a </p> tag; it was one of the standalone tags, like <br> and <hr>. It was, in most but not all cases, functionally equivalent to two consective <br> tags (owing to comparatively crude browser implementations).

      It's faintly possible that this learning actually took place in a parallel universe, and I've yet again sideslipped into a universe which is almost but not quite practically identical to the one I had been in before. That is, however, the language as I learned it.

      --
      -- The Wanderer
    13. Re:because the standards are a bitch by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's how it was when i first learnt HTML in about 95 - pre HTML 2. But it's evolved considerably since those days!

  15. Single page version by wilsoniya · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Single page version

    "For those who hate ads"

    --
    I can't remember the last time I forgot anything.
  16. Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm absolutely fed up with Firefox, and no longer care about it's performance. I started out LOVING it back in the 0.9 beta days and still love the web developer extension and tabbed browsing (though that's become standard) but lately it's just been one issue after the other:

    * Tired of opt-out upgrades. I don't like software that automatically updates itself or that blocks you from using the full functionality of old versions by, for example removing the ability to search for and add compatible plugins. Don't believe me? Try running firefox 1 and installing updates off the web. Good luck.

    * Awesomebar is awful not awesome. I don't care if other people like it. I just want to be able to turn it off. As it stands the only way to get back an address bar that doesn't look like a circus and flash every bookmark up at any passer by is to install TWO extensions: oldbar to get rid of the look and hideunvisited to stop showing off every bookmark in your collection to anyone watching you use the browser.

    * Firefox 3 includes "security" functionality (that thankfully can be turned off, ONCE YOU WORK OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING). Symptoms were that if I downloaded a file with firefox and tried to open it with IE, the images would be missing and none of the scripting would even come close to working. At first I thought it was an IE problem, but no. It turns out that each and every file being downloaded with firefox is being flagged as being in the Internet Zone by means of hidden file streams on the NTFS file system. This behaviour is turned off if browser.download.manager.scanWhenDone is set to false, but it's set to true by default. Thanks for the headache, FF devs. I guess I could just not upgrade....except...err...for the point above.

    * Somehow infected with pop-up window Spyware (Advertisemen) that only affects firefox cut and copy functionality and only when running as firefox.exe. (Renaming it was enough to work around the spyware. Of course the real solution was to get rid of the spyware itself, but this was one nasty bug to find). At first the FF devs were in denial and were less than friendly about the whole thing but have since included information on this spyware in the info files.

    * The extensions are wonderful aren't they? But have you ever looked into coding an extension for FF? It's horrid horrid stuff....and then you'd be constantly having to change it to keep it up to date with the latest version since they constantly break backward compatibility. As you might have guessed by the tone of what I'm saying, as time has gone on I have wanted to bother with this less and less.

    Only problem is I hate Chrome even more and there aren't many options, especially if you want something cross platform.

    Go on, tag as flamebait or troll. If you really think I'm just saying these things to stir up trouble, you've got wax between your ears.

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you try FF on non-Windows?

    2. Re:Fed up with Firefox by cryptoluddite · · Score: 3, Informative

      * Tired of opt-out upgrades.

      about:config
      app.update.enabled = false

      * Awesomebar is awful not awesome

      browser.urlbar.maxRichResults = 0

      * Firefox 3 includes "security" functionality

      Well "generally" people prefer not to lose their credit card numbers and such.

      * Somehow infected with pop-up window Spyware

      ... which is why you "probably" shouldn't have disabled the security features, or been using firefox 1.

      have you ever looked into coding an extension for FF? It's horrid horrid stuff

      And it's better than any other browser.

      So basically you have no real complaints about firefox... which is why your post is troll.

    3. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ZzzzSleep · · Score: 2

      Have you tried Opera? It's also cross platform. From http://www.opera.com/browser/download/?custom=yes It supports:
      Windows
      Mac OS X
      Linux x86 64
      Linux PowerPC
      Linux i386
      FreeBSD i386
      FreeBSD AMD64
      Solaris Sparc
      Solaris Intel
      QNX
      OS/2
      BeOS

    4. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 0, Troll

      The beauty of open source programs is that if you don't like one of them, you are free to fork their source code into a new project under a different name.

      So what stops you from making Syousefox?

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    5. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Most likely he does not want to use a Non-Windows solution. He wants a better web browser for Windows, without having to switch out his operating system.

      Most people want the OS that ships with their computer, which is usually a version of Windows, and then an open source solution that works the way they want it to work on Windows sans the malware infections, etc.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    6. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 4, Interesting

      * Tired of opt-out upgrades.
      about:config
      app.update.enabled = false

      Re-read what I wrote. Do you understand the term "opt-out"? I know how to opt out. I try to always do so. This doesn't change the default for installs. Should I forget to set it, I get a nice reminder when my browser is updated for me without me wanting it to happen.

      * Awesomebar is awful not awesome
      browser.urlbar.maxRichResults = 0

      That DOESN'T do the trick. It certainly doesn't revert the functionality. Have a look at oldbar and hideunvisited. Have a look at the numerous discussions about why they exist.

      Firefox 3 includes "security" functionality
      Well "generally" people prefer not to lose their credit card numbers and such.

      Apparently you don't like people opening up their own downloaded documents either. At least not in IE. Why is it that Firefox sets this obscure stream to mark something as downloaded, but then itself does not honour the flag it sets. By default the downloaded file opens perfectly in Firefox but not in IE (In IE pictures won't display etc) and there is no explanation as to why. I'm talking about saved HTML here! How exactly does such awful design protect my credit card info?

      * Somehow infected with pop-up window Spyware ... which is why you "probably" shouldn't have disabled the security features, or been using firefox 1.

      Ah yes because all security holes are plugged before they make it into the wild. By the way I was using the latest version of firefox at the time (2.0.something). I didn't say I was running Firefox 1 at that stage. Nor would having security flag I mentioned enabled have protected me. Don't let truth or reality get in the way of a perfectly good troll though.

      ave you ever looked into coding an extension for FF? It's horrid horrid stuff
      And it's better than any other browser.

      No actually, it's not. It's more flexible, but it's not "better" by any means. XUL is a piece of trash.

      So basically you have no real complaints about firefox... which is why your post is troll.

      Actually basically you've just demonstrated how dismissive and utterly out of touch FF devs are. YOU are the troll because your "solutions" are inaccurate, incomplete and do NOT provide anything useful. YOU sir, are the troll.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    7. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stop showing off every bookmark in your collection to anyone watching you use the browser.

      Sounds like somebody got busted with the pr0n.

      It's ok buddy, I hear they are implementing an Incognito setting in the next release.

    8. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      The beauty of open source programs is that if you don't like one of them, you are free to fork their source code into a new project under a different name.

      Just how many open source projects have you forked and modified to your satisfaction?

      So what stops you from making Syousefox?

      Same as what stops me from climbing mount Everest, getting a medical degree, finding a cure for cancer, becoming a world class musician, or becoming an olympic athlete. Nothing, if I have passion, the required skills or the aptitude to learn them, have the right surrounding circumstances, and I am prepared to dedicate my life to it.

      It's not easy to fork such a complex piece of software. Realistically without a team of devs behind you, the best you can do is create an extension. People who insist it's open therefore there's no reason you can't fork are living in denial. The barriers are high. What's worse is you mislead people without the technical knowledge and understanding into thinking it's easy. Then they become disillusioned with open source.

      Open source means that if there is enough interest, code isn't going to be lost to the world thanks to legal restrictions on its use, or a company destroying it. It doesn't mean you as an individual can just fork and do anything you want at your whim with little effort involved. I don't just have to care that firefox is starting to suck. I have to care enough to give up a large portion of my life to changing it, I have to get others on board who agree with me helping through the life of the project, and I have to convince users to switch from Firefox to my own variant.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    9. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 4, Informative

      Sounds like somebody got busted with the pr0n.

      It's ok buddy, I hear they are implementing an Incognito setting in the next release.

      Nothing to do with porn. I don't surf porn anywhere that I can be busted for it. Basically there's nothing I haven't seen that's worth my job.

      Everything to do with professionalism at work. When I'm demonstrating something at work, I do NOT need links to remote control aircraft sites, local newspapers, slashdot, chess sites or the like coming up. I do not need my colleagues to know which bank I am with. (We are permitted to use work computers for personal use within reason). I just don't understand why I should have to show everyone who walks by bookmarks I might not have visited in 4 years! It hasn't caused problems yet, but I don't understand why upgrading my browser should subject me to this!!!

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    10. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The beauty of open source is that you just started a /. jihad for slandering The Great Prophet Mozilla.

      You thought I was going to say something like "you can rewrite the browser if you like", huh? LOL!

    11. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And thus a stupid user is off Firefox and the Internet.

    12. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Malc · · Score: 1

      Get down off your high and mighty FOSS horse. Where do people get of spouting this BS? I guess you also have enough time and interest in building your own cars, your own houses, and grow all your own food too. Or are you just independently wealthy and so can spend inordinate amounts of time doing pointless things like this? These software projects often have hundreds of man years behind them, so to suggest an individual forks it is plain retarded.

    13. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure being super picky about meaningless details has led to you being the life of every party you've ever attended.

      Hey, I have an idea - use another browser and leave us alone with the rants.

    14. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually basically you've just demonstrated how dismissive and utterly out of touch FF devs are.

      You're on /. and you can't/won't figure out <quote>, have spyware, and complain about problems you already have easy solutions for... don't expect much sympathy, because you're not going to get any.

    15. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your reply exemplifies why open source software still usually sucks in usability for non-geek users.

      Please, open source pundits... command line is fine for hardcore geeks with no life, but design graphical applications to be used and configured via a graphical user interface. This shitty design that requires configuring GUIs via obscure text keywords has even started to infect OS X, and it fucking pisses me off.

    16. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      ...but I don't understand why upgrading my browser should subject me to this!!!

      Create a separate "cow-orker" profile, downgrade, or install one of the add-ons that you mentioned earlier. *Many* of us *really* like the Awesomebar. I'm sorry that you don't. It's a good thing that you have the option to replace it with something that you like better. :D

    17. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      I just got this error message today through my message console:

      Failed to load XPCOM component: C:\Documents and Settings\Waccoon\Application Data\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\qesmqq4h.default\extensions\{DDC359D1-844A-42a7-9AA1-88A850A938A8}\components\contenthandling.idl

      Okay, Firefox, is there a reason why you're encrypting the name of the extension that causes the error? Would you mind telling me what part is freaking out the application?

      And here, people are talking about web browsers being the platform of the future, possibly acting like its own OS. I don't want to go back to the MacOS years where they only way to diagnose a problem with an extension was to enable and disable each one to find out what causes the browser to crash on startup.

    18. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      about:config
      app.update.enabled = false

      So, I pretty much have to be a browser-hacking geek to opt-out? It pains me when programmers complain how stupid users are. I feel sorry for them most of the time.

      Hell, I have to go into "about:config" just to fix the damn scroll-wheel support. There used to be a GUI for this in Mozilla and Firebird, and it was removed for Firefox. Firefox also used to be able to add cookies to the block list with one click, and now you have to type them out one at a time in one of the most idiotic listboxes I've seen in quite a while.

      It's rather interesting what baseline functionality was removed to make the browser smaller and lighter, only to have that support re-implemented with those clever, efficient, and never buggy 3rd-party extensions.

    19. Re:Fed up with Firefox by jamesswift · · Score: 1

      The extensions are wonderful aren't they? But have you ever looked into coding an extension for FF? It's horrid horrid stuff....and then you'd be constantly having to change it to keep it up to date with the latest version since they constantly break backward compatibility.

      I've written plugins for IE and an extension for Firefox. Gimmie Firefox extensions any time. The upgrade from 2.x to 3.x wasn't too bad at all.
      Sadly, Opera widgets can't modify page html so it's of limited use. Safari has the most annoying APi/extention system IMO.
      This post comes to you via Opera web browser on a Mac.

      --
      i wish i could stop
    20. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

      Everyone who doesn't agree with their policies and constant break of backwards compatibility must be troll, right.

      If I spared my time and went to some Firefox forum and ask them why does Safari renders text better than Firefox latest which have exact same requirements on OS X, they would also label me as troll and even call me a 'maccie'.

      If I told you that I stay away from Firefox just because of their community, without stating any technical reasons?

    21. Re:Fed up with Firefox by PinkyDead · · Score: 1

      ave you ever looked into coding an extension for FF? It's horrid horrid stuff
      And it's better than any other browser.

      No actually, it's not. It's more flexible, but it's not "better" by any means. XUL is a piece of trash.

      Then why are you using it?

      I'm not being trite. I would take your point if you said that Firefox was the best but it has flaws, or if for some reason you were committed to using Firefox - then complaining about those flaws makes sense, but if there is a better browser, then use it.

      You're like the lad complaining that his head hurts when he hits it with a hammer... don't hit it with the hammer.

      --
      Genesis 1:32 And God typed :wq!
    22. Re:Fed up with Firefox by WillKemp · · Score: 1

      [......] lately it's just been one issue after the other [......]

      Sadly, i have to agree. I've been using firefox as my primary browser (under Linux) since the early days and it's improved a lot. But nowadays it just seems to be riddled with problems. It crashes constantly. I keep getting weird segfaults from it. And i'm beginning to suspect it may have some connection with other system problems i'm having at the moment. I'm hoping 3.1 will be an improvement.

      The problem is there isn't really a viable alternative, as far as i can see. Opera comes close, but it's not quite there. I use the web developer plugin constantly, along with several other similar plugins, and i couldn't do without them.

    23. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good lord, calm down.

      Firefox doesn't update itself. It tells you when there's an upgrade. It has never upgraded without asking. Otherwise how would there still be people running 1 or 2?

      Try using awesomebar instead of fighting it. If you don't want bookmarks showing while giving a demo, use a fresh profile or disable it for the demo. 99% of the time, it's spectacularly useful.

      Uh, I'm sorry that your browser uses your virus scanner by default? What do you have a virus scanner for if you don't want it to.. scan for viruses?

      Yes, extension-writing is not a walk in the park. It is being gradually improved. There are other extensions that can help, depending on what you want to do. Sorry? Plugin architectures suck proportionally to how powerful they are. I guess you could use Safari or Chrome or Opera, which don't have an extension mechanism at all.

    24. Re:Fed up with Firefox by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      My list is far more succint: Firefox crashes too frequently, and thus I don't use it anymore. With so many other options, I have little time for a browser if it can't NOT crash (Windows or OSX) every session I use it on every computer I own or use at work. Firefox could shit little gold coins, and I still wouldn't use it until they shore up the stability problems.

      Cue the "but it doesn't crash on MY computer replies in....3....2....1".

    25. Re:Fed up with Firefox by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      Re-read what I wrote. Do you understand the term "opt-out"? I know how to opt out.

      options:
      1) upsetting people like you
      2) millions of unpatched browsers ready for exploiting
      Ill piss you off to keep the majority of people safe any day of the week, and once a release is made only security patches & bug fixes are applied, IMHO that is the best way to do releases.

      Have a look at oldbar and hideunvisited.

      why dont you just use the extentions and forget about the fact you dont like the default, which most people like.

      Apparently you don't like people opening up their own downloaded documents either. At least not in IE. Why is it that Firefox sets this obscure stream to mark something as downloaded, but then itself does not honour the flag it sets.

      wtf are you on about? this has nothing to do with security or downloaded documents, are you complaining about the wierd way that firefox saves html sites? If so then yes it is abit retarded, but your free to improve it.

      Ah yes because all security holes are plugged before they make it into the wild. By the way I was using the latest version of firefox at the time (2.0.something).

      The latest version would have been 2.0.x where the x represents security patches. from my experience most adware crap is installed by other software and then put into your firefox profile, however if you don't go on unsafe sites you don't get adware anyway.

      have you ever looked into coding an extension for FF? It's horrid horrid stuff

      No actually, it's not. It's more flexible, but it's not "better" by any means. XUL is a piece of trash.

      Erm you can make simple extensions in just plain old javascript, if you want to mess around with the internal or interface of a program then your going to have to get your hands dirty.

      If you don't like Firefox DON'T FUCKING USE IT.

      YOU sir, are the troll.

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    26. Re:Fed up with Firefox by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      ctrl+shift+p (in 3.1 and later) ftw no nobody will ever no that i go on www.oldgaymen.com for mt pr0n

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    27. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Locklin · · Score: 1

      Firefox profiles are great for that.

      --
      "Knowledge is the only instrument of production that is not subject to diminishing returns" -Journal of Political Econom
    28. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      If anything it teaches them a lesson that it is not that easy to add in the features they want.

      Let them try it, see if they can do it. I am one of the few people who can do that sort of thing because of my programming background. But as you said I'd need a team to do it, and money.

      I am developing my own open source software, I don't have the time to fork someone else's project. Now if someone forked over the money to hire my own development team that is a different story.

      But it is good to know that I can fork an OSS project if I wanted to, and develop into it whatever I wanted to develop.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    29. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Not so, Flock and Black Bird have been forked from Firefox/Mozilla and they have been doing quite well.

      I am not independently wealthy, but I write my own source code and do it on a shoe string budget. It is not pointless either, it is something people must learn that if they want an open source project to do everything they want it to do, they'd have to fork the original project and hire their own development team to do so. If they cannot afford that, just put up with the original project and submit bug reports and hope someone on the original team can add in what they want.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    30. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      about:config app.update.enabled = false

      Sure would be nice if firefox honoured this. It doesn't. I was forced from 2.x to 3.awfulbarfuckoffanddie despite doing this.

    31. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      browser.urlbar.maxRichResults = 0

      Changes the VISUAL look of the results, not the matching algorhythm, which is the awful part.

      Still, thanks for predictably trotting out the same old completely innaccurate retorts to valid criticisms.

    32. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      You're on /. and you can't/won't figure out

      That's news. There's something difficult or different about quote that's different to italic or bold??? Or is it that I prefer to use bold and italic tags?

      have spyware

      No one on slashdot has ever gotten spyware....EVER.

      and complain about problems you already have easy solutions for

      Not easy solutions. Hard to come by workarounds.

      AC troll. Actually I suspect grandparent being childish posting as AC troll.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    33. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      Create a separate "cow-orker" profile, downgrade, or install one of the add-ons that you mentioned earlier. *Many* of us *really* like the Awesomebar. I'm sorry that you don't. It's a good thing that you have the option to replace it with something that you like better. :D

      That would work for demos but in day to day use that's not a good practical suggestion because constantly switching profiles takes time and effort that's essentially wasted.

      As for the option to replace it, the 3.0 betas had this option built in but actually removed it because the FF devs decided the way to get people to adopt Awesomebar was to force it on everyone. Fortunately people have found workarounds with extensions, and the FF devs haven't been bothered enough by it to torpedo them as well (though who knows long term). Isn't it fantastic that you have the OPTION of using Awesomebar since you like it so much? I'd like the option to turn it off without extensions and workarounds.

      By the way I don't understand why anyone likes an address bar that takes up twice as much room as any sane bar needs to.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    34. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      Then why are you using it?

      For the things it has that other browsers don't, of course.

      I'm not being trite. I would take your point if you said that Firefox was the best but it has flaws, or if for some reason you were committed to using Firefox - then complaining about those flaws makes sense, but if there is a better browser, then use it.

      Actually, I did say that Firefox WAS the best. Past tense.

      Firefox 1.0 was actually a better browser, with none of what I'm complaining about (except perhaps the malware problem). I can't use it, at least not in the form I did back in the day. The main reasons are that the FF devs have made getting extensions difficult, development has moved on and expects a later version, and of course there are the security exploits fixed in later versions but not back ported.

      You're like the lad complaining that his head hurts when he hits it with a hammer... don't hit it with the hammer.

      No I'm like the kid that's complaining that he bought a perfectly good hammer, but a new feature was added and automatically installed that caused the hammer to jump up and hit him on the head randomly without reason. None of this was explained when the upgrade instantly happened.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    35. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      options:
      1) upsetting people like you
      2) millions of unpatched browsers ready for exploiting
      Ill piss you off to keep the majority of people safe any day of the week, and once a release is made only security patches & bug fixes are applied, IMHO that is the best way to do releases.

      Piss poor security design that creates problems and doesn't plug the holes in the first place, combined with forced upgrades does NOT make a good browser. In any case if security were THAT paramount, we wouldn't have extensions, which also auto update by default. There's an exploit waiting to happen right there.

      why dont you just use the extentions and forget about the fact you dont like the default, which most people like.

      I don't like being forced to change from something that works well to something that works poorly. I don't like having to use extensions for things that use to be configurable but that developers decided to push by disabling that option for the sake of their own agenda. I don't like using extensions and unsupported techniques that could be taken away at any point any time an upgrade occurs.

      I also don't accept that "most people" like awesomebar. I've seen no evidence of that whatsoever. Take a look at the complaints all over the net and on the firefox boards that the FF devs in their supreme arrogance have chosen to ignore.

      wtf are you on about? this has nothing to do with security or downloaded documents, are you complaining about the wierd way that firefox saves html sites? If so then yes it is abit retarded, but your free to improve it.

      Get real! Are you trying to come across as some moron with continued impractical or impossible to implement suggestions? I'm sure I'd get along famously with the FF devs if I tried to join in the development effort. Or are you suggesting that I spend my year trying to fork FF and trying to sway people to use some build that one inexperienced dev has hacked? Fuck off.

      The latest version would have been 2.0.x where the x represents security patches. from my experience most adware crap is installed by other software and then put into your firefox profile, however if you don't go on unsafe sites you don't get adware anyway.

      I suppose you're suggesting you've never ever made a mistake visiting a site you shouldn't have, or installing something you shouldn't have? Never installed something off a CD from a magazine? Never ever had anything EVER slip through. Are you suggesting that's how MOST people behave? Or are you one of those people that visits 3 web sites and reads email and that's it? In which case any browser will do just fine.

      Typical dismissive bullshit. "It's your fault, and I have no sympathy". If people always do exactly the right thing, why do we need the auto upgrades you're so in favour of?

      Erm you can make simple extensions in just plain old javascript, if you want to mess around with the internal or interface of a program then your going to have to get your hands dirty.

      Nope. I don't want to code for free. A web browser is just a tool to me. I don't have to be a tool designer to want my tool to work properly. What's worse is version 1.0 of this tool was great and it's steadily being eroded by the kind of arrogance you're displaying in spades.

      If you don't like Firefox DON'T FUCKING USE IT.

      I use to love Firefox. There are still things about it I like, but I've had problems which have wasted a lot of my time and left me feeling quite bitter about it. I've only reported these things here.

      YOU sir, are the troll.

      Repeating something back at me just shows you up to be the immature child that you are. What's your next post going to be? "Nyer nyer you've got cooties"?

      You haven't provided one concrete solution to address any of my concerns. You haven't addressed why these were non issues in version 1.0 but are bit issues in 3.0.x. All you've done is malign me and dismiss my concerns. If FF dies a horrible death from over-engineering and by putting off users by forcing them to do things a certain way, it's people like you that'll have led to that.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    36. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1


      I'm sure being super picky about meaningless details has led to you being the life of every party you've ever attended.

      Hey, I have an idea - use another browser and leave us alone with the rants.

      I'm sure repeatedly commenting as AC troll is much more fulfilling.

      If you don't want to read what I'm posting, don't read it. Or you can keep telling me not to post, as AC coward and it won't change what I do at all.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    37. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      ...constantly switching profiles takes time and effort that's essentially wasted.

      Must be nice to have an employer that lets you "waste" time with surfing that you'd rather not let your cow-orkers and/or customers see. :)

      Isn't it fantastic that you have the OPTION of using Awesomebar since you like it so much?

      Yes.

      ...an address bar that takes up twice as much room as any sane bar needs to.

      * Your definition of "sane" seems to be different from mine.
      * If you actually *used* the Awesomebar, you'd probably want to look into [1] and [2]. (Please don't remind me that you don't want to screw around with Firefox configuration settings. *I* already know this. These links are more for the benefit of those who might come across this thread via google.)

      [1] http://kb.mozillazine.org/Browser.urlbar.maxRichResults
      [2] http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=685365

    38. Re:Fed up with Firefox by cryptoluddite · · Score: 1

      So, I pretty much have to be a browser-hacking geek to opt-out? It pains me when programmers complain how stupid users are. I feel sorry for them most of the time.

      No, you just have to go to google and type "firefox disable autoupdate". The first page of results tells you what you need to know, and it's ridiculously simple.

      If you don't know how to use google, and can't follow a two-line set of instructions, then yeah you might have trouble. But we aren't talking about browser-hacking geek level, we're talking basic competence.

      It's like complaining that you can't hang fuzzy dice from your car mirror because there's no hook for them. Well, that's partly true because there's no fuzzy dice hook, but if you can't figure out how to do it then that's pretty sad.

    39. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      None of this was explained when the upgrade instantly happened.

      Wot?
      A) IIRC, one has *always* been able to disable Firefox's automatic update feature. At the very least, one is required to *restart* Firefox.
      ii) If you really wanted to know what was in the upgrade, you could have read the Release Notes.

    40. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Not easy solutions. Hard to come by workarounds.

      It's not hard to ask google about "disabling AwesomeBar". It directs you to resources that tell you just what to do.

      Also, you're using a shit-load of hyperbole in this thread... you're coming across as a *really* big whiner. If you're a troll, you're a *really* bad one.

    41. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      I don't like having to use extensions for things that use to be configurable but that developers decided to push by disabling that option for the sake of their own agenda.

      IDK if you're a software developer. If you are, then I'm sure that you're acutely aware of the significant testing and maintenance burden that additional configurable behaviours add.
      The core Firefox team cannot possibly maintain and test *everyone's* pet behaviour. It is for this reason that the Extension and Add-on systems were built into Firefox. These systems allow the Firefox team to indirectly support *everyone's* pet behaviour by offloading the testing and maintenance burden to the third-party devs who are willing to take up the cause of marginalized users such as yourself.

      I suppose you're suggesting you've never ever made a mistake visiting a site you shouldn't have, or installing something you shouldn't have?

      IDK about the PP, but I daresay that I fit this description. Safe computing is not hard, when you put some thought into it.

      I also don't accept that "most people" like awesomebar. I've seen no evidence of that whatsoever. Take a look at the complaints all over the net...

      Consider us the silent majority who use Awesomebar to get our browsing done faster and get back to work.

      You haven't provided one concrete solution to address any of my concerns.

      That's 'cause you've already provided the concrete solutions that address your concerns. You have two extensions that -when used in concert- give you the Firefox behaviour that you desire. There's nothing more to be said.

      There ... things about [Firefox that have] ... left me feeling quite bitter about it. I've only reported these things here.

      Did you discuss these things in the Firefox IRC channel or mailing lists? If deemed appropriate, did you file bugs against the bad behaviour? If not, then why not?

      What's worse is version 1.0 of this tool was great...

      Why aren't you still using Firefox 1.0? Do you not know where to go to download a copy?
      Look here:
      ftp://archive.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/
      But before you *use* any of those browsers, be sure to read this:
      http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/README

      Is there anything more that we can do for you tonight, sir?

    42. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      The "encryption" is a GUID. In theory, each extension and add-on has its own GUID. Does this search help you narrow down the faulty component?

      google.com/search?q=Failed+to+load+XPCOM+component%3A+{DDC359D1-844A-42a7-9AA1-88A850A938A8}

      (Sorry for omitting the protocol part of the URL. Slashdot's linkifier doesn't know WTF to do with an open curly-brace.)

    43. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      But nowadays it just seems to be riddled with problems. It crashes constantly. I keep getting weird segfaults from it.

      I saw crashes allthetime when I was using the Flash 9 (and later 10) plugin. I replaced it with Gnash and have yet to see an issue. :D

      Full disclosure: Gnash 0.8.4 doesn't work for ~50% of the Flash out there. However, if Gnash ever freaks out, it *will* *not* take Firefox down with it... Gnash runs as a separate process that's embedded in the chrome. :D

    44. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Errm. Replace GUID with UUID in my previous comment. (whoops)

    45. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Errm, make that read: "At the very least, one is required to *restart* Firefox after an update has been applied."

    46. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      It's not hard to ask google about "disabling AwesomeBar". It directs you to resources that tell you just what to do.

      Yeah because those extensions just instantly came out when the browser did. You are an idiot.

      Also, you're using a shit-load of hyperbole in this thread... you're coming across as a *really* big whiner. If you're a troll, you're a *really* bad one

      Goddamn you're slow. I'm not trolling. I'm pointing out that some really bad decisions and horrendous attitudes are turning one incredible browser into a troublesome piece of shit. Do you want to grow the fuck up and take some notice of a point being made, or would you rather stick your head in the sand and assume anyone with an idea that you don't like is a troll. Some days I fucking hate slashdot. Bunch of triffling trolling bitches.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    47. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      IDK if you're a software developer. If you are, then I'm sure that you're acutely aware of the significant testing and maintenance burden that additional configurable behaviours add.

      I am a developer. I am aware of the significance. I am also aware that this is no excuse for taking away or adversely modifying existing behaviour. I certainly couldn't get away with that sort of shit where I work.

      The core Firefox team cannot possibly maintain and test *everyone's* pet behaviour. ...and I'm not asking them to. I'm just asking that existing behaviour isn't ripped away to force users onto "new improved" behaviour that is neither new nor improved. Unvisited links showing up in your address bar because they happen to have been bookmarked at some stage is asinine. So is an address bar that uses up and covers up twice as much screen realestate as the old one. These aren't improvements. They're eye candy for idiots.

      Firefox 3 beta had an option in about:config for disabling awesomebar. They removed it, citing the wish to force people into using their newly contrived abomination.

      It is for this reason that the Extension and Add-on systems were built into Firefox

      You shouldn't fucking need an extension to modify basic functionality to make it sane again because you've decided as a dev that the world should work different. That is a retarded way of doing things.

      These systems allow the Firefox team to indirectly support *everyone's* pet behaviour by offloading the testing and maintenance burden to the third-party devs who are willing to take up the cause of marginalized users such as yourself.

      What a complete crock of shit. Extensions are for extending existing behaviour. They shouldn't be needed to give you back what you had 2 versions ago. What's more the information on these extensions isn't as easy to find as you make out. Only an "advanced" user is ever going to work out how to do it for themselves. (Some people have friends who are advanced users and will copy what they do but the vast majority are never going to find hideunvisited and oldbar and work out that they are what's required to give you back some sanity).

      IDK about the PP, but I daresay that I fit this description. Safe computing is not hard, when you put some thought into it.

      No system is 100% perfect. Easy "safe computing" practices cover 99% of cases. You can still get caught out. If you don't acknowledge that I'll leave you to your fantasy.

      Did you discuss these things in the Firefox IRC channel or mailing lists? If deemed appropriate, did you file bugs against the bad behaviour? If not, then why not?

      No. Because many others had and the FF devs were either dismissive and rude about it or adopted a no comment policy. What the fuck use is opening up another bug only to have it closed as duplicate or contributing to a long thread where the devs are singing "lalala I can't hear you" going to do?

      Why aren't you still using Firefox 1.0? Do you not know where to go to download a copy?

      Hypocrite! If I did that you'd rail against me using out of date software and not adhering to safe computing practices. I see in your links that you've already practically done so.

      Now just for kicks try finding extensions for Firefox 1.0 on the Firefox site...good luck.

      Is there anything more that we can do for you tonight, sir?

      Yeah stop being a smug patronising dismissive asshole...and yes I'd like fries with that.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    48. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      A) IIRC, one has *always* been able to disable Firefox's automatic update feature.

      Just make sure you do it every time you create a profile. All profiles default to upgrading automatically when created.

      If you really wanted to know what was in the upgrade, you could have read the Release Notes

      I don't want to know after the fact that FF has upgraded itself and what's there. I want to be shown release notes and given a damn choice. Who cares if it doesn't activate till I restart. I can't keep my browser session open forever, so I will need to restart in short order.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    49. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      Must be nice to have an employer that lets you "waste" time with surfing that you'd rather not let your cow-orkers and/or customers see. :)

      Yeah doing my banking in 5 minutes online instead of taking a long lunch to do it must be incredibly costly to my employer. One thing's for sure. I'm glad YOU aren't my employer. I'd rather starve.

      * Your definition of "sane" seems to be different from mine.

      You can say that again!

      If you actually *used* the Awesomebar, you'd probably want to look into [1] and [2]. (Please don't remind me that you don't want to screw around with Firefox configuration settings. *I* already know this. These links are more for the benefit of those who might come across this thread via google.)

      Perfectly aware of maxRichResults, and early on messed with customizations. It doesn't change the things I don't like about awesomebar....but you already know that, so why are you wasting my time with this nonsense. Awesomebar is a complete piece of junk and I don't wish to use nor customize it. I just want a nice vanilla working bar back thanks. That's why I use hideunvisited and oldbar. The version of FF that does not allow me to have a nice simple address bar is the first version I don't bother to upgrade to.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    50. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Just make sure you do it every time you create a profile...

      How often do you create a profile, boss? (Also, why are you creating profiles so often that this creates a problem? [Also, why are you running everyday things as a root user?])

      I don't want to know after the fact that FF has upgraded itself and what's there. ...I want to be ... given a damn choice

      When I configure Firefox to ask me before upgrading, or never upgrade, it does just that. I have never seen Firefox "forget" this setting. (I've also been using Firefox from the 1.0 days.)

    51. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      ...why are you wasting my time with this nonsense.

      From my previous post:

      These links are more for the benefit of those who might come across this thread via google.

    52. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      I am also aware that this is no excuse for taking away or adversely modifying existing behaviour. I certainly couldn't get away with that sort of shit where I work.

      Do you pay the Firefox team for their work? Do you have a contract with them for delivery of a browser with a Firefox 2.x styled location bar? If you do, then you have a valid complaint. If not, then they're free to do whatever their steering committee has found to be best for the browser.

      ...to make it sane again...

      Again, your definition of sane behaviour differs from mine.

      Extensions are for extending existing behaviour. They shouldn't be needed to give you back what you had 2 versions ago.

      *snort* The current existing behaviour is AwesomeBar. Oldbar et. al. extend that behaviour to make it function like the classic location bar. It sounds like the extension system is working as intended.

      You can still get caught out.

      Agreed. I have yet to get "caught out", though.

      If I did that you'd rail against me...

      You don't seem to know anything about me. How have you come to this conclusion?

      I see in your links that you've already practically done so.

      Wat?
      I authored none of the documents that I have linked to in this thread. Half of the links that I have posted were not for your consumption. The other half pointed you to FF 1.0 and a warning from the devs about using old browsers. Care to explain how you've come to your conclusion?

      Yeah stop being a smug patronising dismissive asshole...

      You first, sir.

    53. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Yeah because those extensions just instantly came out when the browser did.

      From wikipedia:

      Mozilla Firefox 3 was released on June 17, 2008

      Wikipedia's source:
      https://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2008/06/17/firefox-3-available-today-at-1700-utc-10am-pdt/

      Let's look at the oldbar download and usage statistics:
      Zoom out all the way on this graph:
      https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/statistics/addon/7637

      Mouse over the extreme left of the graph. Notice the date displayed: 06/17/2008. Notice that there were 97 downloads that day.

      Do the same for hideunvisited:
      https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/statistics/addon/7429

      Notice that on 06/17/2008 there were 2,215 downloads.

      Oldbar and hideunvisited *were* available on the day that Firefox 3.0 shipped.

      You are an idiot.

      I respectfully request that you retract this statement.

      I'm pointing out that some really bad decisions and horrendous attitudes are turning one incredible browser into a troublesome piece of shit.

      You're not making your point. All you've done in this thread is rail endlessly about how much the AwesomeBar sucks and how it's the death of Firefox. *I* *don't* *agree* *with* *you*. If you have other examples, you need to start bringing them out. This one example is very weak, as it's based on matters of taste.

    54. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      Oldbar and hideunvisited *were* available on the day that Firefox 3.0 shipped.

      1) I have no idea how accurate those stats are. See point 4.

      2) I have no idea how many people even knew about the differences between 2 and 3 on the day the first downloaded it. I know I didn't. Feel free to bash me for having better things to do with my life than follow FF development.

      3) I know for a fact that MOST FF users *STILL* don't know about these extensions and why they might want them

      4) The FF devs certain did not publicize the availability of these extensions. In fact 3.0 betas included options in about:config that meant these extensions weren't necessary. So how is it that they were released on day 1?

      I respectfully request that you retract this statement.

      Yeah you've been real respectful. Request denied.\

      . All you've done in this thread is rail endlessly about how much the AwesomeBar sucks and how it's the death of Firefox. *I* *don't* *agree* *with* *you*. If you have other examples, you need to start bringing them out. This one example is very weak, as it's based on matters of taste.

      I don't care if you agree with me. Forcing your own tastes on others is neither a weak example, nor is it just a matter of taste. Awesomebar is less efficient and is more invasive of your privacy. You can rant about how much you don't care about that, but it doesn't change those 2 facts.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    55. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      How often do you create a profile, boss? (Also, why are you creating profiles so often that this creates a problem? [Also, why are you running everyday things as a root user?])

      Not often at all. It was suggested as one possible solution to my issues with Awesomebar on this very thread. That means a simple mistake of omission results in me losing control of my software environment, which isn't good enough. You may be a robot that never makes such mistakes, but some of us are flesh and blood human beings.

      When I configure Firefox to ask me before upgrading, or never upgrade, it does just that. I have never seen Firefox "forget" this setting. (I've also been using Firefox from the 1.0 days.)

      You must configure this setting on each and every profile, and if you create a new profile or install without doing this, you'll get an automatic upgrade for your trouble. It was a very simple point I was making. You must be a pleasure to live with if you turn every little point into some argument in real life.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    56. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      Do you pay the Firefox team for their work? Do you have a contract with them for delivery of a browser with a Firefox 2.x styled location bar? If you do, then you have a valid complaint. If not, then they're free to do whatever their steering committee has found to be best for the browser.

      How many things do you rely on that you don't pay for you hypocritical fool? This is a good argument for never using free software. Is that what you're suggesting? That free software is garbage that should never be used.

      No if they ask for my patronage and provide a good version 1.0 product then bait and switch with progressively degraded rubbish in 2 and 3 while pulling the good product I have a legimate gripe. I can't sue them for money but I can point out that their new browser sucks, which is all I've done.

      *snort*

      Snort it up, big boy!

      Agreed. I have yet to get "caught out", though.

      Must be nice to be perfect and never get caught out. You're in the minority though.

      I authored none of the documents that I have linked to in this thread. Half of the links that I have posted were not for your consumption. The other half pointed you to FF 1.0 and a warning from the devs about using old browsers. Care to explain how you've come to your conclusion?

      You can't have it both ways. Should I use the old browser or not? If you're arguing I should, then stop pointing to material that suggests I'd be foolish to do so as it's not helping your case. If you're arguing I shouldn't then stop telling me that if I don't like it I can stick with the old browser. You may want to try learning to make a logically consistent argument. Even as a troll this might come in handy on occassion.

      You first, sir.

      More throwing my arguments back at me even if they don't make sense to turn back because clearly you can't make a decent argument to save your life. I've not been dismissive of you. I'm not the one telling you to shut up and stop complaining am I now? Grow the fuck up and get a life.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    57. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      1) I have no idea how accurate those stats are.

      If you investigated how the stats were calculated, you'd understand just exactly how accurate they are.

      In fact 3.0 betas included options in about:config that meant these extensions weren't necessary. So how is it that they were released on day 1?

      The dev of the oldbar extension probably read the mailing lists where the FF devs gave the Extension devs the heads-up that AwesomeBar was going to be the default, and the about:config option to switch back to the previous behaviour was gonna be removed. There's no conspiracy here, just clued-in developers.

      I don't care if you agree with me.

      Then you don't care if anyone listens to your arguments. See, the only argument that you've presented hinges on a matter of subjective taste. Productive conversations cannot be built around arguments about matters of taste.

      Look, a lot of cruft has built up in this argument. Are you interested in a productive conversation? If you are, let's start over. State your argument as clearly as you can. State all of the primary points of your argument as clearly as you can. Present as much evidence as you can to support each point. Let's keep the conversation in this thread. If neither person's opinion can be swayed, or either person's argument hinges on matters of taste, then we shall terminate the conversation and go our separate ways.

    58. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      If you investigated how the stats were calculated, you'd understand just exactly how accurate they are. ...and if I have other things to do with my time...like for instance raise a family?...You seem to assume every user is interested in FF development. I just want something that doesn't break or change at someone else's whim.

      The dev of the oldbar extension probably read the mailing lists where the FF devs gave the Extension devs the heads-up that AwesomeBar was going to be the default, and the about:config option to switch back to the previous behaviour was gonna be removed. There's no conspiracy here, just clued-in developers. ...and I've already stated my opinion on that FF dev decision. There was no need for any of this. They should have left the option in place.

      Then you don't care if anyone listens to your arguments.

      So your line of logic is that if I don't care about your opinion, I don't care if anyone listens to me. Are you serious? If so I have to say you think rather highly of yourself.

      If you are, let's start over. State your argument as clearly as you can. State all of the primary points of your argument as clearly as you can.

      Ah, an offer to start this all again. No thanks. I have better things to do with my time than repeat myself. My arguments have been quite clear. You've just chosen to be dismissive of them. That won't change a second time round, and you know that quite well. Your offer is therefore disingenuous.

      If neither person's opinion can be swayed, or either person's argument hinges on matters of taste, then we shall terminate the conversation and go our separate ways.

      I think it's safe to say neither of us will be swayed.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    59. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      If you don't know how to use google, and can't follow a two-line set of instructions, then yeah you might have trouble. But we aren't talking about browser-hacking geek level, we're talking basic competence.

      You think it's reasonable for people to have to Google for documentation to disable a nag method, especially considering that documentation might come from a 3rd-party source?

      You think it's reasonable for someone to have to scroll through hundreds to thousands of lines of config values with obscure name and set values manually? How is that better than asking people to edit the system registry?

      You think bad design can be easily justified by suggesting regular people lack basic competence?

    60. Re:Fed up with Firefox by ion.simon.c · · Score: 1

      Ah, an offer to start this all again. No thanks.

      Very well.

      I have other things to do with my time...like for instance raise a family?

      Heh. Just *how* long have you spent sniping at me and other members of this forum? Your credulity has worn thin.

      So your line of logic is that if I don't care about your opinion...

      Negatory. My line of logic is this: "The only argument that you've presented hinges on a matter of subjective taste. If you don't care to figure out why people's tastes differ from yours on this matter (and -by extension- why their opinions differ from yours), then you're wasting everyone's time when you bring up such issues." Don't you have a family to raise and job to do?

      There was no need for any of this. They should have left the option in place.

      No. You are wrong. There is a need for AwesomeBar. You are -evidently- not its target audience, so you are incapable of understanding that need. Moreover, the FF devs have better things to do than to maintain code that doesn't improve their browser. When compared to FF2, FF3 is faster, uses system resources more effectively, and is more standards compliant. 3.1 is gonna have HTML5 support (among other nifty features). All in all, I like the direction that FF development is taking. If you dislike FF3 so much, ask (or pay) one of your childless programmer cow-orkers to backport security and compatibility fixes to whatever revision of FF you like the best. [Or just use it straight out of the box, noone will know.] ...You seem to assume every user is interested in FF development.

      I don't. You seem to enjoy jumping to conclusions. Go back to the graph that I linked you to. Click on the "Help" link in the top right. You get the story behind the statistics. No mailing lists required. :)

      Anyway, adieu. May we never meet again.

    61. Re:Fed up with Firefox by syousef · · Score: 1

      Heh. Just *how* long have you spent sniping at me and other members of this forum? Your credulity has worn thin.

      No where near a fraction of a percentage of the amount of time it would take to contribute to open source software, let alone sway the primary dev's opinions. I type fast. I've probably wasted a total of 20 minutes on you.

      Negatory. My line of logic is this: "The only argument that you've presented hinges on a matter of subjective taste. If you don't care to figure out why people's tastes differ from yours on this matter (and -by extension- why their opinions differ from yours), then you're wasting everyone's time when you bring up such issues." Don't you have a family to raise and job to do?

      How are the facts that I've presented subjective. Fact: Devs took away functionality. Fact: They worked hard to ensure that even through advanced settings it couldn't be restored. Fact: People who weren't closely following development were taken by surprise. Fact: Your old links, not visited in years will show up as you type anything into "awesomebar". Fact: This means anyone looking over your shoulder gets fantastic insight into your bookmarks. Fact: The "awesomebar" takes up much more screen real estate than the old tried and true address bar.

      Nothing subjective about any of the above. You have trouble separate subjective from objective.

      No. You are wrong. There is a need for AwesomeBar. You are -evidently- not its target audience, so you are incapable of understanding that need.

      For someone that wants arguments clearly spelled out, that's an incredibly stupid way of putting things. You haven't specified what the need is. I'd argue that the "target audience" doesn't use bookmarks and showing them unvisited ones does them no good. Meanwhile people who do bookmark things get their bookmarks broadcast to anyone looking over their shoulder which is detrimental. Never mind. I'd have been fine if there was a way to turn it off that didn't involve a 3rd party extension that is essentially a hack.

      You see it's not good enough. You can't just ask someone to present clear and logical arguments while you present nothing but conceited and condescending waffle.

      I don't. You seem to enjoy jumping to conclusions. Go back to the graph that I linked you to. Click on the "Help" link in the top right. You get the story behind the statistics. No mailing lists required. :)

      Those stats prove nothing pertinent to the main point of my complaint. Harping on the fact that a few people were able to download a little known extension on the day the browser was released and making that your basis for attacks against my credibility is simple minded and childish.

      Anyway, adieu. May we never meet again.

      Yes.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    62. Re:Fed up with Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      try Opera
      http://opera.com

  17. Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From TFA, on Google Chrome:

    All the navigation tabs -- Back, Forward, Refresh, and Home -- sit to the left of the Address bar.

    All the navigation tabs-- except STOP! No other browser puts Stop and Reload on opposite sides of the screen like Chrome does. Unfortunately, Ben (Goodger?) always WontFixes bug reports on the issue. At this rate, the only hope is for someone to create a Stop-button extension, once that becomes possible.

    In the meantime, is it true that nobody uses Stop nowadays, and thus don't care?

    1. Re:Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by Aranykai · · Score: 1

      You have internet slow enough to give you time to hit the stop button? You must be new here.

      --
      If sharing a song makes you a pirate, what do I have to share to be a ninja?
    2. Re:Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes it's the site server that's slow, not the connection. And I download images large enough to give me time to hit the Stop button :P ... Which, incidentally, doesn't work right in Firefox (Bug 58880). Try viewing an image directly and Stopping it when it's half-loaded; it disappears and is replaced by an error message, instead of staying on the screen half-loaded. Every other browser does this right, including Classic Netscape, and it's Firefox's code ancestor.

    3. Re:Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by Cimexus · · Score: 1

      Aha so someone else out there other than me had noticed this little annoyance. I use Chrome full time (yep ... as my sole browser). It has its shortcomings but it's fast, lightweight and pretty. FF has all the fancy extensions stuff but frankly I don't really use any of them so I don't miss it.

      Anyway, to get back on topic, I don't think it's a huge deal because I never physically CLICK stop, and haven't for years and years. In most browsers you just mash the Esc key instead, which is way quicker than clicking 'Stop' no matter where it is on the screen.

      Add to that the fact that unless there are server problems, most sites are done loading in a second or two these days, and I suppose Stop truly does get less use than it used to.

    4. Re:Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bookmarklet: javascript:window.stop();

      Drag the bookmark so it's under the reload button.

    5. Re:Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

      esc + f5 ftw

      --
      IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
    6. Re:Truly, does nobody use the Stop button? by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

      It is on the top left of your keyboard.

      --
      NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  18. Seems a bit unfair by AnonGCB · · Score: 1

    Take this post with a grain of salt, I'm fairly heavily skewed toward opera (and against safari, but that's irrelevant). Opera has many of the features that are being highlighted in other browsers, such as FF's Awesomebar thing, and the Accelerators of IE8. I don't think this was very well done, they ought to have had all the browsers shown to them by someone who was very familiar with them, and given a better features list. Also, they should be decisive, as many others have said.

    --
    http://CryoLANparty.com/ A lan I'm staff on!
  19. Mobile Browsers by LuYu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    With all this talk about people giving up their computers for mobile devices, it would be nice to see a mobile device browser rundown. From what I have seen, most mobile browsers are atrocious.

    For instance, Safari on the iPhone, which is a descendent of Konqueror, has no option to constrain text to the screen (just as Konq-e did not). There is no Firefox derivative for the mobile world. NetFront is ugly and slow and missing lots of character sets, but at least constrains text. PocketIE is so stupidly slow, memory inefficient, and painful to use it is hard to discuss without liberal use of expletives. Android's webkit browser is designed not to link to local URLs (ie: file:///).

    That is only one criticism each, but a more appropriate figure would be much higher for each. The bugs in these browsers are sort of unbelievable. Even worse, unlike downloading from the net, these browsers all have a price. When one buys a mobile device, these browsers are included and part of the purchase price goes to these browsers. Why are the for-pay browsers worse than the free ones?

    About the only mobile browser I would even say nice things about is Opera. Opera is missing some features I want, but considering the competition -- or lack thereof -- I cannot complain too much.

    It is hard to believe that when everybody seems to believe that we are on the eve of the mobile computing revolution that there can be only one decent mobile browser to choose from. Further, it seems absurd that with all of this browser code floating around on the net, one cannot download and install any given mobile browser but must, instead, be stuck with a device vendor chosen browser for good or ill.

    --
    All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    1. Re:Mobile Browsers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use Gopher. It automatically supports WML.

    2. Re:Mobile Browsers by IceFox · · Score: 1

      What about Iris

      --
      Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
    3. Re:Mobile Browsers by LuYu · · Score: 1

      This browser is obviously broken: It does not work in Linux.

      --
      All data is speech. All speech is Free.
    4. Re:Mobile Browsers by roguenine19 · · Score: 1

      Here is a decent comparison of mobile phone broswers. But the conclusion they reach is basically that everything out there has some critical issues. It's understandable considering the problems: constrained inputs (and different means of input depending on the device), trying to render pages designed for 19" monitors at 800x600 resolution on 4" screens at 320x320 resolution on hardware and operating systems that are primitive by modern standards.

      Things will get better of course (anything is better than Mobile IE), but in the meantime, it means the Web in your pocket isn't quite the same as it is at your desk.

  20. I stopped reading... by Xenex · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...at:

    It didn't take long for Mozilla's Firefox to emerge from Netscape Navigator's ashes

    Netscape's source was released in 1997. Firefox 1.0 was released at the end of 2004. During those 7 years, Internet Explorer 6 strangled innovation on the web. We're still far from free of its legacy.

    If the writers of the article have such a poor sense of perspective on browser history, I'm not trusting their views on browsers now.

    1. Re:I stopped reading... by timmarhy · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      no sunshine, your wrong.The mozilla browser continued on through out that time. and it was 1998 they open sourced it, 2002 was the first firefox release. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Firefox

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  21. Major error re: chrome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They list Chrome 1.0 as an upcoming release, but it has already been released and is no longer in better. Chrome 2.0 is already in development and easily accessible to anyone who uses the chrome dev-channel switcher utility.

  22. In other news... vi and emacs compared by shaitand · · Score: 1

    no winner declared.

  23. dillo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The dillo browser is getting pretty decent these days.
    But then again I mostly use lynx on OpenBSD of course....

    Firefox sucks. All that money they're making from
    their embedded search engines should
    be going to the user of the browser not to themselves.

  24. There may be a better browser but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I won't stop using firefox until there's one with at least comparable features to my firefox + addons. I have a very specific setup, weather, noscript, adblock, proxy button, etc. that might not be the fastest browser but it's so useful I can't live without it.

  25. Nine isn't whopping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nine is no where near whopping.

    1. Re:Nine isn't whopping by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

      Nine is nowhere near whopping.

      Maybe not, but the London Docks are.

      --
      Squirrel!
  26. I'm right. I'll make a revision for you: by Xenex · · Score: 2, Informative

    Netscape's source was released in 1997. Mozilla 1.0 was released in the middle of 200s. During those 5 years, Internet Explorer 6 strangled innovation on the web. We're still far from free of its legacy.

    Also, I understand the history of the Mozilla project. I've been pedantic about their history here before.

  27. Oops. 2002, even. by Xenex · · Score: 2, Informative

    Mozilla 1.0 was released in the middle of 2002.

    1. Re:Oops. 2002, even. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mozilla 1.0 was also an unusable pile of shit.

  28. Hey whippersnapper by reidconti · · Score: 2, Informative

    How can you talk about the "early days of the WWW" without realizing that Netscape Communicator (which you obviously reference when mentioning that "people would be creators and communicators")and other in-browser editors were middle-age for the Internet?

    Those days, to me, are when browsers really began to get too bloated.

    And I'm still a few years from 30. I wonder what the 30 year-old geezers on here think of your comment.

    1. Re:Hey whippersnapper by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      And I'm still a few years from 30. I wonder what the 30 year-old geezers on here think of your comment.

      "Get off my lawn!", probably?

  29. Dupes! by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

    Two Internet Explorer. Two FireFox. Two Safari. Two Opera. But zero Konqueror.

    "What version of HTML did you write that page in dude?"
    "It's version six AND seven man!"
    "Whoa! Anybrowser!"

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  30. Sheesh by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

    Safari 3, Internet Explorer 7, Firefox 3, Opera 9.6, Google Chrome, Firefox 3.1, IE 8, Safari 4, and Opera 10."

    Man, it's almost as bad as the gaming industry. Nothing but sequels.

    1. Re:Sheesh by neonux · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but I can't wait for the spin-offs!!

      Internet Explorer Party
      Firefox Kart
      Safari Turbo II EX
      Opera Tennis
      Paper Chrome

      --
      @neonux
    2. Re:Sheesh by xtracto · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but I can't wait for the spin-offs!!

      Internet Explorer Party
      Firefox Kart
      Safari Turbo II EX
      Opera Tennis
      Paper Chrome

      I'll wait for Firefox Labrador Edition

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    3. Re:Sheesh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Safari 3, Internet Explorer 7, Firefox 3, Opera 9.6, Google Chrome, Firefox 3.1, IE 8, Safari 4, and Opera 10."

      Man, it's almost as bad as the gaming industry. Nothing but sequels.

      you forgot one i love alot and its free its called
      "SeaMonkey"

  31. Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1

    Firefox 3.1's support for the CSS @font-face rule. With this ability, web developers have the option of specifying web fonts that must be downloaded for their website to appear as they intended.

    If you are not logged in to your machine as Administrator/root, then how will this work. Well - it can not ever work, which is good!! I don't want some application to change my system.

    Same with Firefox's AutoUpdate "feature" - it assumes that you're logged in as Administrator/root. How else could Firefox update its program directory? Please correct me if I am wrong.

    If there's anybody out there still surfing the web as Administrator/root, then ... well - I give up. Then it's your own fault if your system gets messed up.

    Microsoft even recommends the Principle of Least Privilege for User Accounts in Windows XP. I wonder how many people know about this and actually use their computer according to these guidelines.

    On Linux/Unix this is the first thing you learn - you only login as root when you need to do administrative work (and only then). Web surfing definitely does not fall into that category.

    1. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by Mystra_x64 · · Score: 1

      Fonts are not system-wide.

      --
      Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on /.
    2. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1
      They are on Windows - C:\WinXP\Fonts ...
      And for Linux/X11 - /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/ ... This looks like a system directory to me ...
      But - in Linux/X11 you could add a directory in your home directory to xfs's search path.

      But AutoUpdate still does not work, unless you're logged in as root/Administrator. And nobody seems to care about that.

    3. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by BZ · · Score: 1

      > If you are not logged in to your machine as Administrator/root, then how will this work.

      Easily. The fonts are not installed system-wide. In fact, doing that would be a spec violation: the spec requires that downloaded fonts not be made available to any other applications. So you keep the font in memory, and use it if the page asks for it.

      > Same with Firefox's AutoUpdate "feature" - it assumes that you're logged
      > in as Administrator/root.

      And disables itself if you're not, on the assumption that the administrator has clue and will handle updates himself. Note that on Mac, where it's trivial to install apps into non-system locations, the update feature can Just Work. If the app _is_ installed in a system location and the account has administrator access, then the update just puts up a standard sudo prompt.

      > If there's anybody out there still surfing the web as Administrator/root, then
      > ... well - I give up

      Most people on Windows do just that.

      > I wonder how many people know about this and actually use their computer according to
      > these guidelines.

      Very few, of course.

      > On Linux/Unix this is the first thing you learn

      On Linux, the vast majority of users get Firefox from their distro, not Mozilla directly, and then it's updated via the distro's standard update mechanism (yum, apt, whatever).

    4. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by Mystra_x64 · · Score: 1

      Browser fonts are not system-wide. That's what I'm saying.

      Some of those even required to be deleted after some time ot leaving site (I'm not sure about this one).

      --
      Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on /.
    5. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1

      Easily. The fonts are not installed system-wide. In fact, doing that would be a spec violation: the spec requires that downloaded fonts not be made available to any other applications. So you keep the font in memory, and use it if the page asks for it.

      Thanks for your clarification - much appreciated. I didn't know this.

    6. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by MadMaverick9 · · Score: 1

      but then why do they show a picture of "C:\Windows\Fonts" in the article - confusing.
      oh well - could just be me ...

    7. Re:Firefox 3.1 - Install new fonts - How?? by Mystra_x64 · · Score: 1

      They do? I didn't RTFA... so I don't know.

      --
      Quick way to get 30% Funny 70% Troll: defend Opera browser on /.
  32. The next Firefox release by Bj�rn · · Score: 1

    The next Firefox release will be called 3.5 not 3.1 according to Mozillalinks.

    --
    Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. --Niels Bohr
    1. Re:The next Firefox release by Bj�rn · · Score: 3, Informative
      Oops. Just saw this update to the article.

      Update: Mike Beltzner, Firefox product lead, clarifies that despite what the meeting notes may have suggested, the version bump is not a final decision at this point.

      --
      Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think. --Niels Bohr
  33. The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Remember the browser wars, round 1? It seemed that everytime you turned around, there was a new version out with new features and new tags to learn. Features like VRML and javascript, CSS, a dizzying array of choices that seemed like it could go on forever.

    That is, until MS killed the browser wars by bundling their browser and coming up with a browser that was 'good enough'. Innovation stalled almost completely. Webmasters, frustrated with the pain of developing cross-platform web sites, frequently bought the koolaid of the all MS dev stack.

    The open, free Internet was, for a time, in danger.

    But then the guys behind Mozilla, mostly funded by AOL who only used Mozilla to threaten MS in order to get an icon for the desktop, finally started to mature into something good.

    And, though years in the making, the browser wars are suddenly back! Suddenly MS releases two versions of their browser rapid-fire, suddenly there's a reason to pay attention!

    Just imagine where we'd be if there hadn't been that near-decade of stagnation in the middle? That's the price of the MS monopoly.

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    1. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by Late+Adopter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Features like VRML and javascript, CSS, a dizzying array of choices that seemed like it could go on forever.

      That's not a good thing. You forget that many of the "innovations" of these browsers in the bad-old-days were to give themselves something the others didn't support. When we're talking about standards for the interchange of data, you want them to move slow so everyone can keep up.

      Now I'll admit, the ubiquity of a browser with a lack of standards compliance and ui features like tabs are painful results of MS's monopoly, but let's be careful when we talk about "innovation" anywhere near standards.

    2. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by Velska1 · · Score: 1

      You may be right about the cost of M$'s monopoly.

      But I was one of those poor people assigned to make sure that our site worked with "most" browsers. Can you say "standard compliant"? Neither can Bill Gates.

      Of course, including images in HTML documents was an innovation in itself, that launched the browser wars. My first HTML Interned experiences were text-only pages w/ a text-only "browser" (it wasn't even called a "browser" then, was it?).

      --
      Every problem has a solution that is simple, easy and wrong. Selling our Liberty for a little Security is a much too de
    3. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by daveime · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You aren't serious are you ?

      The only innovation Netscape did was to introduce frames and layers, the first of which was universally hated and eventually kicked from the standard when it was already too late. And the second, which was a pathetic attempt to keep up with the DHTML and on-the-fly re-rendering that MSIE 4 was already doing so well. Except NS4 DIDN'T re-render properly, didn't resize the layer based on content, so all you ended up with was crappy looking content overlaying other content and a damn mess of cross-browser hacks to even achieve that.

      Whereas, look at what MSIE did, taking innerHTML as a prime example. It was their innovation, it wasn't considered standard at the time, but it was so useful that Firefox and all the others implemented it anyway.

      You really need to stop believing everything you read about the browser wars, and actually admit that NS4 sucked so badly, no one WANTED to buy it. Plus the fact that MSIE was being bundled for free, why bother paying for an inferior competitor. Netscape didn't deserve to survive, sorry. Not because of MS abusing a monopoly, but because NS4 browser was a dog, and needed to die.

      To my mind that was the time when people were starting to realiss that a browser IS an integral part of any O/S and there was already becoming less market space for paid alternatives to survive. Let me ask you this ? As we're all so used to "free" browsers these days, do you think Firefox would have such dominance if it cost $5 ? or $10 ? Of course not, people want something that works most of the time as they expect, and if it's free, then so much better.

    4. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has a long and demonstrable history of engineering non-compliant standards, leveraging their superior market share to create their own standards and drive out the competitors. Whether that's fair or not is not really our call, because courts have already ruled on it. Internet Explorer spent years developing this business model, but then MS got slapped on the pee-pee for it.

    5. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dude you got it about half right. As someone who lived through it and actually jumped from Netscape to IE let me clue you in on a little secret-Netscape 4 sucked. I mean really sucked. I mean buggy as hell, dammit why won't this stupid thing work, about as fun as a kick in the nuts kind of suck. So while IE being bundled helped them amongst the clueless, honestly even those that WANTED a choice back then didn't really have one. Because as much as you hate IE the simple fact is Netscape nuked the fridge with Netscape 4 and simply never recovered.

      And you also seem to forget that back then Netscape was as bad about using proprietary tag crap as IE. So really there was no good guys and bad guys in that first browser war. Just two companies trying to lock in as many customers as they could and one of them nuked themselves by putting out a giant POS alpha quality browser and running off all their customers.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    6. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? So? Was the W3C cowering in fear all those years? Did they make poppy in their pants because IE was dominant? Did Universities stop researching Unix kernels because NT became popular? Blaming MS is a simple tactic aimed to generate the "us vs them" primal response. Admittedly only a moron would fall for that, then again, this is slashdot..

      Microsoft has a long and demonstrable history of engineering non-compliant standards,

      so? software standards are very much unlike standards in the classical sense. Software Standards in many cases can hold back innovation. Individuals are not free to add cool stuff to the any web standard unless some random committee OK's it. Probably why things like XUL will take ages to show up in all browsers. It doesn't help that in most cases you have your competitors on the commitee board too who are going to deliberately slow down the process till their product is done..

      leveraging their superior market share to create their own standards and drive out the competitors.

      BTW, since Mozilla added XUL, they created their own standard, and by your definition they're leveraging their market share to drive out competitors. AmIRite?

      Clearly Standards can be do much good in enforcing fair competition in the market place. But don't let this fool you into thinking that they are some sort of panacea for the broken web.

      Whether that's fair or not is not really our call, because courts have already ruled on it. Internet Explorer spent years developing this business model, but then MS got slapped on the pee-pee for it.

      Do you blindly agree with everything any judge has to say instead of thinking for your self? Or do courts never make mistakes? You should take a look at some of the controversial rulings judges have made in your country of residence. I bet you wont agree with all of them.

      Read these if you are truly interested.

      http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=88

      http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=613

      (Yeah, I'm sure Micro$oft paid them off. Shh. Lets keep it between us)

    7. Re:The true cost of Microsoft's monopoly by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      The only innovation Netscape did was to introduce frames and layers

      And JavaScript. And cookies. And Java applets. And on-the-fly rendering. And (I think) JPEG support and plug-ins.

      Whereas, look at what MSIE did, taking innerHTML as a prime example. It was their innovation

      Netscape invented JavaScript, while Microsoft added a small JavaScript property. Therefore Microsoft are the innovative ones? Er, no.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
  34. Missing option: by iztehsux · · Score: 1

    I can't believe lynx wasn't tested in the competition...

  35. Missed a few by jlebrech · · Score: 1

    What about Konqueror, kazehakase and midori.

    1. Re:Missed a few by Gerald · · Score: 1

      The article was about browsers with market share. Even on the geek-heavy site I run, Konqueror accounts for 0.1% (that's "zero point one percent") of visitors.

  36. Opera Addons by lhoguin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Most reviews don't get it and I'm sure a lot of people are mistaken about it, but even if Opera doesn't support "addons" they support a lot more than just adding widgets.

    You can customize any and all Opera INI files. There is extensive resources about it. For a few examples, you can:

    • Install a web developer toolbar
    • or a web accessibility toolbar
    • Install custom buttons (there's 5 other pages of buttons on the wiki)
    • Edit INI files. If 9 speeddial links aren't enough for you you can increase their number in the INI files, for example. You could also modify the menus to add an entry to open a link in firefox/IE.
    • All the panels and toolbars are configurable and removable. For example my setup has no menu bar, has my emails/rss on the left and a button on the status bar at the bottom to enable plug-ins only when I need to. I've also removed the search box since I can type "g slashdot" in the address bar to search for slashdot on Google anyway.

    Of course the INI files are part of your profile so editing them won't affect other users. And I'm not even mentioning the per-site configuration.

    Opera doesn't need addons IMHO. It's already really heavily configurable.

    I understand some people can't do without AdBlock or a few other addons, so no need to mention it, we know you need it. But for the others there's more than enough functionality available through customization.

    1. Re:Opera Addons by francisstp · · Score: 1

      I've also removed the search box since I can type "g slashdot" in the address bar to search for slashdot on Google anyway.

      Even faster

  37. What a shit article. by Computershack · · Score: 1

    So performance is based on something which it is advised to disable for security reasons? Fuck all mention about the fact that Chrome eats RAM like it's gone out of fashion.

    --
    I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't looking good either. - Scott Adams
    1. Re:What a shit article. by Jamie's+Nightmare · · Score: 0

      I agree that the Memory Usage of each browser should have been part of the article. However, if you think Chrome is bad, don't try the new Safari Beta. 150 megs when opened and sitting on the fancy "Top Sites" screen.

      --
      "When you see a unixer brainwashed beyond saving, kick him out of the door." - Xah Lee
  38. Mozilla made Chrome? by barncha · · Score: 1

    "In a design document, Mozilla developers outlined plans to add extensions to Chrome sometime in the future."

    And why the hell would that do that?

  39. How ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    advert next to this article "Download Google Chrome"

  40. Compatibility? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 1

    When I first started building multi-OS compatible webpages, I decided I wanted them to be compatible with everything. That means...

    What, no support for elinks or w3m-mode? :(

    I'm not even... well, I'm not 100% joking. Sometimes I ssh to my university and use elinks to browse the web from there (for instance, when I need to come from a university computer to download articles from SpringerLink, or when my fucking ISP blocks the pirate bay and I want to read their blog about the trial, or download the audio recordings).

    1. Re:Compatibility? by gzipped_tar · · Score: 1

      Since you have shell access to your account on the univ. computer, why not just set up a SOCKS proxy via SSH and tell your browser to use it?

      --
      Colorless green Cthulhu waits dreaming furiously.
  41. Do you really want Safari on Linux? by Ilgaz · · Score: 1

    Safari was built as the browser for OS X, in Apple style with Apple philosophy from the beginning. Run Konqueror and Safari and look to their preferences, you will understand what I mean.

    To have Safari on Linux (exact same Safari), you will need a lot of closed source binary frameworks from Apple. E.g. that CoverFlow thing, Top 10 sites animation are CoreAnimation tricks. What kind of feedback would Apple get if they did all the work on a OS running x.org, multiple flavors and multiple extensions and shipped Safari.app as binary on Linux? Not good I guess. The Linux market is not really suitable for a browser like Safari. It is like iPhone (and app store) vs. OpenMoko or Android.

    As for credit? Safari family claimed to hit 10% and they wonder around with this signature: AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16

    See the KHTML part?

  42. Easy to do all of that in Opera by grandmofftarkin · · Score: 1

    You can do all of that and more in Opera:

    weather (weather widget)
    noscript (Switch off JavaScript and use 'site specific preferences' to enable per site)
    adblock (Opera Content Blocker and/or urlfilter.ini)
    proxy button (Opera custom buttons [Do a search, many people have created these already])

  43. RSS feed ads? What's the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's the point in including ads in your RSS feed if the link is dead by the time I click on it? Some piracy whistle blower offering a reward? Gee, nothing sketchy every appears here. What is this, Orwell's 1984? Has someone declared martial law and not told me? Oh, that's right, martial law has been in effect since Roosevelt, but no one has bothered to repeal it.

  44. Content Blocker by grandmofftarkin · · Score: 3, Informative

    AdBlock? What about Opera's Content Blocker and urlfilter.ini?

  45. Well, they forgot a few browsers by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

    Midori, for one. I got perfect score on Acid 1, 2, and 3 months, ago and I *think* that it was the first. I had a screenshot, but misplaced it. A more recent screeny here: http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Runaway1956/Midori_Acid3.png Can't remember Arora's score - I'm pretty sure it passes all three test as well.

    --
    "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
  46. TFA Could Be Clearer in What They Mean by Velska1 · · Score: 1

    Quote from the article:

    Safari 4 makes better use of the Bookmarks toolbar, allowing you to not only add individual bookmarks, but category folders as well.

    Do they mean they haven't noticed that Firefox 3.0.X can do the same (and if my memory isn't completely shot, so did v. 2)? Or were they just comparing to Safari 3?

    Go figure.

    --
    Every problem has a solution that is simple, easy and wrong. Selling our Liberty for a little Security is a much too de
  47. Mission category: stability with Adobe Flash by averner · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With Adobe Flash being so ubiquitous on the Web, it is important that your browser handles its flaws in a non-annoying manner.

    When Flash misbehaves and locks up and/or crashes, Firefox freezes up completely. Meanwhile, in Chrome you can kill it via the Chrome task manager and continue browsing without having to restart the browser. This is why I use Chrome, and not Firefox.

    I would have loved to see this article review how Firefox, Chrome, and other browsers handle Flash.

    --
    Member of the 7 Digit UID Club
    1. Re:Mission category: stability with Adobe Flash by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      But in Firefox, the adblock plugin gets rid of most of the flash stuff you don't want to see without having to deal with any sort of a crash.

    2. Re:Mission category: stability with Adobe Flash by averner · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you use your internet for. If you open 10 internet videos at a time so that you can watch 1 while the other 9 load (if they load slower than you watch them), then adblock isn't going to help much. Not every video sharing site offers downloads, unfortunately. It's a matter of convenience, I guess.

      But that's besides the point. Firefox with adblock has some advantages over Chrome, such as less RAM and CPU usage. My main point is not whether Chrome is better than Firefox: my main point is that different browsers deal with Flash differently, and it would have been nice to cover those specifics in the article.

      Either way, thanks for the comment. Maybe if we can get more people commenting about their experiences with Flash in different browsers, we can fill up this hole that the article has. :)

      --
      Member of the 7 Digit UID Club
  48. Re:*Missing* category: stability with Adobe Flash by averner · · Score: 1

    Oops, I meant Missing category. Sorry!!

    --
    Member of the 7 Digit UID Club
  49. 49y old here, using iCab / Amaya on OSX :-D by Herve5 · · Score: 1

    I'm sure absolutely nobody mentioned iCab here until now. The ones that invented ad-filtering 10 years ago (I said years). And, as I am to it, what about Amaya? THE W3C editor/browser, open-source, multiplatform, wysiwyg in the editor part? http://www.icab.de/ http://www.w3.org/Amaya/

    --
    Herve S.
  50. Yeah, Opera does have good Adblock by sznupi · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.fanboy.co.nz/adblock/opera/

    Nice list & style, works just as good as FF Adblock for blocking, somewhat better for hiding empty spaces.

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
    1. Re:Yeah, Opera does have good Adblock by lhoguin · · Score: 1

      My bad, I didn't know there was something like this. Thanks for the link.

  51. Cookie storage innovations by saddino · · Score: 1

    Seems like an apropos article to throw tangential news at: the WebKit based Stainless (for Mac only, Leopard req.) introduced a completely new browser innovation yesterday, which IMHO is more important than raw speed:

    From MacNN:
    Version 0.5 of Stainless introduces the concept of "parallel sessions," which let users log into a single site with multiple simultaneous accounts. In accessing Gmail for example, three different inboxes can be loaded across three separate tabs. The content is further integrated into bookmarks, allowing several site logins to be loaded in short order.

    Original article here.

  52. Nothing new, right? by sznupi · · Score: 1

    You should got used to it by now...

    Accidentaly, from the article I have the impression that they tested subjective performance using trivially small number of pages/tabs...

    If they would do some heavy & long browsing (as in...weeks) Opera would wipe the floor with other contestants, excluding Chrome (well, I don't know about Safari)

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  53. Re:49y old here, using iCab / Amaya on OSX :-D by Hobart · · Score: 1

    I'd upvote you for the Amaya ref if I had mod points :-) Also missing: Omniweb.

    --
    o/~ Join us now and share the software ...
  54. Re:M$ Windoze Sucks by dov_0 · · Score: 1

    I know I shouldn't feed, but this popular freetard fairy tale has been witnessed so often to move into the realms of reality!

    --
    sudo mount --milk --sugar /cup/tea /mouth /etc/init.d/relax start
  55. And We Are Back at User Experience by Velska1 · · Score: 1

    Seamonkey is the only browser with identical rendering across every platform.

    There's your problem...

    ... everything isn't going to look identical across every platform ... a lot less stress if you can get your management and/or clients to understand and accept this as well.

    To continue quoting you: There's your problem. People come to your site and go OH NO! This looks different! I mean, my wife insists on booting the machine to XP, b/c Firefox *looks* a little different on Linux/Gnome (although I put the Strata XP-lookalike theme on her FF). I try to tell her that's another couple of minutes wasted in rebooting, when she just wants to visit the bank's site to pay a bill. Not to mention the somewhat shorter time that I waste when I boot back to Linux.

    Non-technical people tend to go apoplectic when their UI looks different, even when you try to explain, that in the new menu/dialog structure most of the tasks can be done with fewer clicks. All you have to do is look around and read what the menu says.

    I know, beating a dead horse...

    --
    Every problem has a solution that is simple, easy and wrong. Selling our Liberty for a little Security is a much too de
  56. Great Review by FyberOptic · · Score: 1

    Finally! A comparison which not only checks every major browser out there, but also checks both the current and future versions. I was getting pretty tired of these "reviews" and "benchmarks" leaving out certain ones, or using certain beta versions of some and not of others. It wasn't very heavy on the actual speed benchmarks, but at least it was something.

    That said, I have to say I'm disappointed in Opera. It used to be the fastest, but I don't know what happened with them lately. I've never been as satisfied ever since 9.5 hit. I've gradually shifted away from it handling my email so that I'm not as dependent on it, and have been using a toss-up between it and Chrome lately. I'm in Chrome as we speak, even. Once they have better Greasemonkey/UserJS support (currently it's pretty terrible in the trunk build), I may be fully on-board.

    1. Re:Great Review by hkmwbz · · Score: 1

      That said, I have to say I'm disappointed in Opera. It used to be the fastest, but I don't know what happened with them lately.

      I't say it's still the fastest in real-world usage. SunSpider and those other marketing benchmarks only test a tiny subset of the web, and are optimized to work well in specific browsers.

      --
      Clever signature text goes here.
  57. Seamonkey + Puppy = Win ! by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

    Seamonkey kicks ass, even just as a browser. It is blindingly fast compared to the others. It makes me happy.

    If you've got a low-spec PC, try installing Puppy Linux on it (Seamonkey is the default browser) to give it a new lease of life.

    And if you have a really crap spec machine, give Dillo a spin. You'll be amazed.

    --
    Squirrel!
  58. Re:M$ Windoze Sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The hell? This is Slashdot. How the hell was the parent post marked Troll for Windows bashing?

    Isn't "off-topic" more accurate?

    Silly moderators....

  59. source by jefu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    OK. Source code is here - I though I had it on sourceforge, but a search there didn't seem to work. It is written in java and an adaptation of something far older (trying to use grammars to generate music). Code is not as nice as I'd like, but it is not intended to be production quality - it is intended as a testbed for hackery and experimentation.

    Unpack, cd down to the html directory (down a few levels) and run make. There are scripts (unix) to then try to run different browsers ("run-firefox" for instance).

  60. Re:Mobile Trousers by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

    Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?

    I hear the Mr Benn sound then go out through the magic door. I usually have an adventure, then as if by magic, the shopkeeper appears and I return home with a souvenir of my day.

    --
    Squirrel!
  61. Re: browser.download.manager.scanWhenDone by viralMeme · · Score: 1

    "Firefox 3 includes "security" functionality .. This behaviour is turned off if browser.download.manager.scanWhenDone is set to false"

    In Firefox 3, if a Windows user has an antivirus program installed, it is launched to scan files when they finish downloading. During testing of the feature, concerns about delays and double-scanning files surfaced. As a result, this preference -- controlling whether the virus scan is automatically triggered -- was created.

    "Somehow infected with pop-up window Spyware (Advertisemen) that only affects firefox .. have since included information on this spyware in the info files"

    What info and where?

  62. Try 1999 by chemindefer · · Score: 1

    I was using M-builds in late 1999 that were reasonably reliable. Many nightlies leading up to 1.0 were usable enough that I was installing them for the computer-clueless that I supported at that time. Just had to find a good one and test it first.

    I'm not a fanboy of where Mozilla and its products have evolved, but I see nothing that compels me to change. I would never think of switching to Apple's Mail, for example, refused to use it when I worked for them (which is why I was often the only person that could open attachments). I like that it is simple and doesn't help me too much. The 2.0 builds are working pretty well right now, although the extensions are lagging.

    Agree that development and adoption of Firefox took a long time and that IE 6's legacy on the internet resembles W's on the world at large.

  63. Re: memory leak issues by viralMeme · · Score: 1

    "Fuck all mention about the fact that Chrome eats RAM like it's gone out of fashion"

    NO, NO, NO, it's always Firefox that has the memory leak issues. Chrome clones certain features of the Gazelle browser OS that don't exist yet.

  64. re: MSN web standards .. by viralMeme · · Score: 1

    "Can somebody tell me why programmers of open source browsers decide not to code to standards?"

    The real question should be why do programmers write web apps that display differently on differing browsers. Assuming this isn't willful sabotage unlike the case of MS making Hotmail not work on Opera. This was achieved by moving text 30 pixels to the left so as to make the text look all jagged.

    http://acid3.acidtests.org/
    http://www.w3.org/

  65. Re: solution to lack of standards .. by viralMeme · · Score: 1

    "The standards can be a bitch"

    How about testing your web app with different browsers, before foisting it on the world?

  66. privacy mode on firefox by gsgleason · · Score: 1

    My only beef with this article is that in their final comparison chart as well as in their write up, they act like firefox doesn't have a privacy mode, so to speak. Since you can always clear it manually with tools>clear priate data now, or by setting it to do so automatically under edit>preferences>privacy>always clear my private data when I close firefox, I would argue that it does indeed have a privacy mode, even though it's not explicitly called that.

  67. Re: solution to lack of standards .. by tjstork · · Score: 1

    How about testing your web app with different browsers, before foisting it on the world?

    Sure, if you are willing to pay for that! Bottom line is, everything costs money, and sometimes, you just gotta drop a browser to keep the whole thing under budget. I have many clients that are only willing to pay for IE compatibility. I do what I can to support Firefox and Chrome largely because I use them more, but at the end of the day, if push comes to shove, its dopey IE's way or the highway.

    --
    This is my sig.
  68. A good and safe choice by nrdlnd · · Score: 1

    The conclusion you can draw from this is that IE is far behind. IE 6 should have been among the tested browsers as it's among the most used in corporate installations. Mozilla Firefox is a good browser with the most features and among the fastest. A good and safe choice! When it has become the most used browser I may choose another browser though.
    Per

  69. Thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Neat trick, thanks!

  70. off topic: ad block by higuita · · Score: 1

    icab didnt invented ad block... i used junkbuster at least in 1997 IIRC and AdBuster in 1998

    --
    Higuita
  71. bug? by pterry · · Score: 1

    24 hours (or even 24 seconds!) to render 20k of HTML should be considered a bug. Did you submit it to bugzilla? Does it still take a long time on a current version of Firefox?

  72. Re:Browser wars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The names for these Troll pieces make them truly brilliant. "Browser Wars" WOO!

  73. Re:M$ Windoze Sucks by DaVince21 · · Score: 1

    Huhwa? Sorry, I wasn't listening.

    --
    I am not devoid of humor.
  74. So where is Maxthon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Nerds, (this is a site for nerds as detailed in the title isn't it?)

    I am someone who uses the browser around 12 hours a day for the last 10 years. Of course I have tried extensively avery browser. And I can't believe that Maxthon is not even considered in your ridiculous study.

    I know that nerds and geeks don't consider Maxthon a browser since it is based on IE, but give me a break... we final users could't care less about that.

    Maxthon is by far the best browser existing decades ahead of the others. First of all, it simply is the fastest in every sense. And what I firts want is speed. It opens in two seconds, loads pages and multiple tabs in seconds, closes in miliseconds, everything is just FAST.

    Apart from it, it bring by default hundreds of functions that in other browsers don't exist or have to be oainfully and time-consumingly downloaded. In Firefox it is a nightmare to get them and restart every time you add something. It is true that Firefox has hundreds of add-ons, but trust me, I don't need or miss any of them in Maxthon. All the ones that I need and feel that are practical come witrh Maxthon by default. Everything.

    Then we could speak about configuration flexibility. In Maxthon you can change every piece, every button, every bar, making it at your own taste. Who else has that?

    Or we could talk about add blocking. Maxthon by default blocks absolutely every annoyance and add and allows to decide on minor annoyances. No one can beat it.

    Anyway... I am just an extensive personal and professional user of browsers. I know nothing about web technology and software programming. Maxthon may be based on IE but IE is a prehistoric joke compared to Maxthon. My second option is Firefox, which I need ages to set up by dwnloading and configurating the extensions the way I need and the way it can do what Maxthon does. I ned to save all the extensions everytime and still the reisntallation of Firefox will force me to spend hours seeting them up to my preferences.

    Opera, Chrome, Safari... please give me a break... they are pre-history, archaic stuff.

    And so you are This comparative study is by definition a piece of crap as you only compare the big companies, not what we users know is better.